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Bowled out by the softballs

Posted on October 16, 2016 by

Here’s David Mundell on Sunday Politics earlier today:

It’s a pretty uncomfortable time. But it could have been a lot worse.

Andrew Neil let Mundell get away several times with saying that Scots voted in 2014 while knowing that they’d subsequently be getting a referendum on EU membership. But as we’ve clearly established previously on this site, that’s complete nonsense. An EU referendum was conditional on a Tory majority in the 2015 general election, and in 2014 almost nobody thought that was going to happen.


According to UK Polling Report, in the month leading up to the indyref vote there were 39 polls of UK voting intention conducted. Exactly two of them gave the Tories a lead over Labour, both times of just a single point, with one dead heat. The other 36 all put Labour ahead, by as much as 8 points and with an average lead of 4%.

In late August 2014, bookies were making a Tory majority – the only outcome which would have guaranteed an EU referendum – a 3/1 long shot, with Ed Miliband favourite to be next PM:


The Tories had been at those odds or longer all year. In a televised debate a week later, just 16 days before the referendum, even Ruth Davidson made a point of saying that the Tories weren’t looking likely to win, and therefore an EUref was a long shot.

“It’s disingenuous of Patrick [Harvie] to say that No means out and Yes means in, when actually the opposite is true.

No means we stay in, we are members of the European Union. And yes, IF the Conservatives win the next election – which frankly isn’t looking likely by the polls, but we’re trying our best – we will allow people to have their say.”

So Mundell was flat-out lying when he told Andrew Neil – who’d questioned him in the context of “Better Together”, not the Conservatives – that:

“There was going to be an EU referendum, that was made very clear throughout that. People voted in Scotland, and voted decisively to remain part of the United Kingdom, in the full knowledge that there would be an EU referendum.”

When Neil put it to him once more that the No vote had been won “on the assumption we would also remain part of the EU”, Mundell lied again:

“No, I don’t accept that analysis, people were aware that there was going to be a vote on whether the United Kingdom remained in the EU.”

There’s no wiggle room there. Mundell’s assertion simply isn’t true. People were aware that there was, at that time, less than a 50% chance of an EU referendum, as Labour had categorically ruled one out and they were expected to win the election, or at the very bare minimum deny the Tories a majority. (A hung Parliament was odds-on.)

Mundell was a blustering, stuttering mess for the rest of the interview too. He claimed that the Scottish Government “have not adhered to” to the Edinburgh Agreement in terms of respecting the indyref result, although he couldn’t specify any way in which they hadn’t done so.

(He wouldn’t say whether the UK government would block a second indyref if one were to be brought forward, which it hasn’t been, which would in itself seem to disprove the notion that the 2014 result hadn’t been accepted. The only practical means we can think of by which the Scottish Government could have refused to respect the result would be to declare UDI, which we’re pretty sure they haven’t.)

He also refused to confirm whether Brexit would mean control of fishing and farming coming back to Holyrood, although politicians and pundits routinely insist that they would. (Mundell was evasive, refusing to even acknowledge it as a default position.)

It’s the rewriting of history over the EU that most strikingly characterises the No side’s ongoing panic about the prospect of a second indyref. They simply hope that if they tell the lie stridently enough for long enough everyone will forget the truth. But we’d give you a lot more than 3/1 on that happening.

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497 to “Bowled out by the softballs”

  1. Hamish100 says:

    He is Englands man in Scotland.” Dae as yir telt, plebs”

    A simple poster. Would Mundell understand the bottom bit?

  2. Legerwood says:

    People, but not perhaps the majority of people in Scotland during Indyref knew there was a possibility of an EU referendum if, big, big if, the Tories got back in with a majority. To know that an EU ref was being talked about you had to read the Daily Telegraph where talk of an EU referendum had been continuous background noise since the 2010 General Election. Or you sat up late to watch Ms Sturgeon debating Alistair ‘help me Rhona’s Carmichael and she mentioned the possibility of an EU ref. I looked for the clip which I thought I had seen on here recently.

    But the number of people who read the DT or watched late night debates in Scotland are pretty small in the general scheme of things and the MSM in Scotland certainly did not give any prominence to the possibility that our future in Europe was uncertain whichever way we voted.

    All the statements from BT were to the effect that staying in the UK guaranteed continuing membership of the EU and they were given great prominence by the MSM. The statements were never qualities by a ‘but not if Tories win election outright’.

    So that’s vast majority of No voters thought that a no vote guaranteed continuing membership of the EU. And many of those No voters in Scotland voted for Remain.

  3. Brian Powell says:

    The Edinburgh Agreement, as far as I’m aware, was about the rules of the Referendum, not whether there should be a Referendum or that it was a once in a life time Referendum.

    Alex Salmond said, in his opinion, it was once in a lifetime chance. The SNP membership at the time was 20,000, they didn’t vote on it being that, and since then the membership has gone up by 100,000 and they didn’t agree it was a 1 time opportunity and haven’t voted it should be either.

    The other Yes groups, Greens etc didn’t say it was.

  4. Ianmc says:

    To be fair Mundell is a pretty incompetent and low ability politician. He is perma spluttering when put under the spotlight, even gently.

    He is a guy who has no real grasp of his brief. He is simply there through sheer lack of choice.

    As for being unable to answer. You have to acknowledge that this is the result of his being excluded from real polotics in the cabinet. He is a mere token. The lack of respect the Westminster party has for him is illistrated in their lack of engagement with him. Throw him a sweetie occassionally and he will do their bidding and that is the main issue. Here we have an inept, wimpass man, with no fight simply accepting things on behalf of Scotland. As Scotland Secretary he should instead be fighting hard for us. He should be asking, loudly and forcefully, where our involvement is in Brexit. He should be shouting loudly and forecfully for Scotland’s interests and given how we voted, he cannot not seriously say these interests are currently being respected.

  5. SOG says:

    If I remember correctly, the Tories had an EU referendum in their previous election manifesto, and failed to deliver. So I was expecting more of the same.

  6. Jock Scot says:

    The most brain-ringing part for me was when he compared Scotland being dragged out of the EU with being dragged out of the UK. I’m thick but even I’m not that stupid.

  7. Fred says:

    A blustery, stuttery, muttery mess!

  8. Tinto Chiel says:

    Remember the “Daddy or Chips?” advert for McCain’s French Fries?

    This is the new version:

    Grima Wormtongue or Toom Tabard?

    Grima Wormtongue or Toom Tabard?

    Your choice…….

    Even Andra Neil looked completely contemptuous of the wee split-tongued sourock.


  9. gordoz says:

    Robert Burns summed up this situation pretty well regarding Scottish agents of Britain –

    Mundell is a classic case of being within the said parcel, no matter what his level of competence may be, fool or idiot no difference.
    No sympathy either.

  10. Legerwood says:

    SOG @ 4.37pm

    If I remember correctly David Cameron promised the Tories a referendum on Europe if the Treaty of Lisbon had not been ratified by the time they took office. But it was ratified, Latvia was the last EU country to accept it and thus make it applicable across the EU.

    Most people especially Tories forgot that rider to his promise of a referendum though and kept on about a ref but the need to form a Coalition after the 2010 GE gave him further breathing space.

    I am sure like everyone else he expected another Coalition government after 2015 GE and a referendum once more parked in the long grass. Didn’t that go well.

  11. David Mooney says:

    Fluffy stutters and stumbles his way through another interview. Yet again coming across as the useless imbecile he actually is.

    You missed one other piece of BS Stu. The Tories – go to – mantra of the market differential in trade between the UK and EU is 4 times higher in value. What utter nonsense. Firstly I have seen nothing to confirm any truth in this figure (still don’t know where it came from) and do they honestly think we should believe that all trade between an Independent Scotland and rUK would cease after Brexit. Of course it wouldn’t, because it’s in no ones interest for that to happen, least of all England’s.

  12. ed t head says:

    I think he needs to go to specsavers so he can read the poll not see what he wants to.

  13. The Man in the Jar says:

    We must not mock for Fluffy must at least be a candidate to lead the Union campaign for the next indiref.”Better Together#2″ For if not fluffy then who? Ruth Davidson? Kezia Dugdale? Willie Rennie? James Kelly? Amber Rudd? Eddie Izzard? I am going to have to stop now my sides are too sore.

  14. Grey Dug says:

    Enough of this criticism of David Mundell. He is the obvious choice to lead the No campaign in the next Independence Referendum, and we should all be backing him to undertake that role.

  15. galamcennalath says:

    Oh FFS, very few people could have predicted the sequence of events to get us where we are …

    – 2014 polls not a good indication of the election result a year later
    – pathetic Smith
    – Tory win
    – Scots being ignored and EVEL
    – EU renegotiation
    – another referendum
    – an unexpected Leave win
    – a change to a hard right regime
    – and Brexit still to come

    … does anyone actually believe the result would have been 45% if everyone had even a vague notion of what would happen over the following two years!?

    Brexit as a word didn’t even exist in 2014.

  16. I posted this earlier on WGD.
    Through the wonders of I Player, I’ve just watched Andrew Neil rip Mundell’s liver from his quivering body ,eat it live on TV, washed down with a glass of Blue Nun,
    Mundell seems blissfully unaware of his actual position in Scottish politics.
    He is the only Blue Tory, but falls back on the ‘Scotland voted to stay in the Union, so there’, and repeats that’ we’ll listen’ to any proposals put by NS to WM regarding a negotiating stance which will get the best deal for Scotland, which voted 62% Remain.
    He is the SoS yet he feels that he has no remit to be in there with Johnson, Patel, Davis and Fox,fighting Scotland’s cause.
    Of course he is a puppet, a gopher, excluded from the Brexit inner circle, yet he demands that Holyrood should come up with Brexit solutions for Scotland, and present them to him to ‘consider’ as Governor General of the colony? Some would call him an arrogant self important little tosspot. Some would. I couldn’t possibly comment.
    What is the point of this insignificant quivering wreck of a man?
    Gordon Brewer also did a Hannibal Lecter on Ian Murray, the Red Tory’s Last Man Standing.
    Murray is as clueless as Mundell. He was Anas Sarwar on speed.
    He will not serve on Corbyn’s Shadow Cabinet in a fit of pique, so we have an English SoS for Scotland.
    He thinks that he is more effective on the back bench Committees than if he were Shadow Sec?
    He came across as a petulant, not very bright, overfed wee fellow traveller, which of course he is.
    He even refused to declare that Labour could win the 2020 GE with Jeremy at the helm.
    What a waste of a seat at WM he’s turned out to be.
    Sturgeon and Robertson were put through their paces by Marr and Brewer, and clearly demonstrated, that no matter the viewers’ particular politics, at least we have some politicians with integrity and more importantly, intelligence.
    Since Angus Robertson ceded that if all Scotland’s Brexit codicils were met, access to the Single Market, free movement of Labour, Scotland controlling immigration ,Brewer jumped to the conclusion that a second Independence Referendum would never happen, ever again..
    Good try, Mr Brewer.
    The Road to Independence may have many pit stops along the way. But we shall get there eventually, worry not.
    Mundell, Murray, and Carmichael: ‘Give me men about me who are fat; men who sleep o’ nights.’

  17. Papadox says:

    Mundell mentally challenged, politically illiterate and morally bankrupt. He wouldn’t know the truth if he fell over it.
    His apprentice is another disgrace, say and do anything for a pat on the head. No moral compass, no conscience and no shame. EBC trained her well, a credit to their principals. She rose through the ranks of the territorial army as she shot to the top of the tolly party. A true lachy of the establishment shot callers. The permanent sneer sits well. A class act.

  18. galamcennalath says:

    Grey Dug says:

    David Mundell…is the obvious choice to lead the No campaign in the next Independence Referendum

    They couldn’t choose a better leader 😉

  19. Arbroath1320 says:

    Ye gawds!

    Fluffy fluffing his fluffy way through a fluffyvatious interview about his Fluffynesses views on all things Fluffy! 😀

    Hope no one ever expects anything of substantial use or even passing interest to ever be muttered by his loyal Fluffyness! 😀

    What a feckin liar he is. He is willing to look at any proposal brought forward? Seriously? What has changed then?

    During the Scotland debate in Westminster he said quite clearly he would NOT veto any amendment to the Scotland Bill. Anyone like to have a guess at what actually happened?

    Correct! … He vetoed every single one of the 70 odd amendments put forward without so much as a by your leave!

  20. Gail Hughes says:

    Let’s give Mundell the benefit of doubt, (for the purpose of discussion) and assume that it was clear in 2014 that there would be an EU referendum and that the probable result was a vote to leave.

    Did that knowledge escape the Better Together campaign, or did they, in full possession of this information, proceed to mislead the voters by telling them that a vote no would secure our membership of the EU?

    Is Mundell’s argument really that he and his fellow No campaigners knowingly made claims that they believed were not true? Not much of a defence, is it?

  21. Sinky says:

    The problem informed Yes supporters have is that

    (a) TV interviewers / commentators, particularly those in London, are NOT sufficiently clued up on Scottish politics


    (b) Tory and Labour reps get away with telling lies as “popular” press fail to take them to task with the negative headlines that face the SNP on an almost daily basis

    Therefore more engagement with Unionist press letters pages and phone ins is required.

    No point in just speaking to the converted… its the non political folk we need to persuade.

  22. Robert Louis says:

    What a lying weasel. Why is he not standing up for his own country, for heaven’s sake. David Mundell, secretary of state AGAINST Scotland.

    Interesting to note that he did slip in, when questioned on another independence referendum, among all his spin, he said, ‘of course their could be another referendum’ (at 3minutes 10).

    Seriously what motivates a guy like that to appear on national TV and lie about his own country, to its clear detriment. What a low life.

  23. heedtracker says:

    What a farce. Looks like Scotland’s on a hiding to nothing with these guys. Fluffie’s a lowest denominator tory chancer, much like the UKOK loonies on twitter, historywoman, Effiebeans, Dr NO! etc.

    Fluffie’s “Scottish Government “have not adhered to” to the Edinburgh Agreement in terms of respecting the indyref result” simply means, Scotland holding a second referendum. Except the Fluffster cant actually say that out loud on tv yet, because the SNP stood for election with ref 2 in their manifesto.

    Tories and democracy don’t really mix.

  24. R-type Grunt says:

    The Tories are desperately seeking a truth hole but sadly for them we have the Internet. The important factor is that many pensioners do not. We need to focus on those people.

  25. heedtracker says:

    BBC certainly piled in Feb 2014 with the EU Prez and his very clear, vote NO or you’re out, and you wont get back in either.

    16 February 2014 Last updated at 11:55 GMT

    José Manuel Barroso, the President of the European Commission, has said it would be “extremely difficult, if not impossible” for an independent Scotland to join the European Union.

  26. Sunniva says:

    VERY interesting. Neill is clearly pissed that Scotland is being dragged out of the EU. A division amongst unionists?

  27. One_Scot says:

    David Mundell, was he not the guy that said that according to official government lawyers, Scotland ceased to exist as a country as a result of the Act of union 1707, and was absorbed into England.

    Leader of Better Together2, he would have to be a total mental bumbling fool to take that on. Oh, right.

  28. Robert Graham says:

    A total down right Liar , who treats the whole of Scotland as idiots and suffering from Total bloody Amnesia , this of coarse will be widely reported in the press , this total fiction that is being presented as democracy , and we should trust this travesty to conduct and organise a referendum on our behalf, all future referendums with this lot in control will return a NO vote Guaranteed .
    If we follow their rules we lose every time, the EU or the United Nations need to conduct the second vote we will never win when the game is fixed against us .

  29. Capella says:

    @ Gail Hughes 5.20 – excellent point! The logic of that argument is inescapable. I do hope interviewers will raise it in future.

    “Let’s give Mundell the benefit of doubt, (for the purpose of discussion) and assume that it was clear in 2014 that there would be an EU referendum and that the probable result was a vote to leave.

    Did that knowledge escape the Better Together campaign, or did they, in full possession of this information, proceed to mislead the voters by telling them that a vote no would secure our membership of the EU?”

  30. Sweep says:

    I can’t help but ponder the dynamics of this interview, particularly Neil’s attitude to Mundell.

    It couldn’t be personal political differences because there are none between the two. Perhaps frustration at the reluctance to answer questions? No, with Neil’s long experience, dealing with that kind of behaviour from interviewees would be water off a duck’s back.

    No, what I got was Neil’s absolute exasperation with a blithering idiot who ‘might’, just ‘might’ be expected to lead a ‘No’ campaign in the next indyref. And that he felt an urgent need to highlight this to the powers that be so that they can take steps to replace him in good time for the next indyref.

    I could picture him turning to the camera saying: “This? This is all you’ve got??? Jesus H, get him out before he hands them a Yes vote on a plate! And get me a professional I can work with!!”

  31. Liz g says:

    Robert Louis @ 5.27
    I caught that he slipped that in as well,and as usual the presenter let it slide on by.
    First time I have heard UDI mentioned though,but again just dropped in.
    While they aren’t coming right out and saying that they will block another referendum,because they can’t and they know it.

    I think they will try to portray Westminster as busy with Brexit and will get around to looking at the proposal for a new Edinburgh Agreement as and when they can.
    Westminster knows our referendum is on the Brexit clock.
    Wait and see how reasonable Fluffy think’s it is for Scotland not to be greedy with parliament’s time and attention.

  32. AAD says:

    I don’t think Andrew Neill is affected one way or another about Scotland being dragged out of the EU. I thought he was annoyed at being asked to conduct a serious interview with such a low-quality interviewee. It didn’t matter what Neill asked, Mundell could not give an intelligent, coherent answer.

    In the Andrew Marr show today during the section on the comments on today’s papers, one of those interviewed (the male) had a swipe at Scotland but his lack of knowledge shone through. He stated that recent polls showed a drop in support for independence, but failed to say that the poll he was quoting presented the findings without removing the don’t knows. Also he said that Spain would not allow Scotland into the EU in case it encouraged the Basques in their quest for independence. I think he needs a wee up-date here.

  33. Bob Mack says:

    Rev . Find target. Take aim. Destroyed as usual. Brilliant job.

  34. Chitterinlicht says:

    Watching this it becomes crystal clear why the tories are putting all their hopes on Ruth Davidson.

    Being the only tory mp in Scotland he can’t hide anymore. He really just is not very good and even his own party do not rate him or he would have a seat on the Tory Brexit committee.

    Would not surprise me if he stands down at next UK general election…..assuming there will be another one?

  35. Glamaig says:

    Mundell is the ultimate obedient retainer.

    Anyway, if he asserts that Scotland was extinguished in 1707, why is he Secretary of State for something that doesnt exist? I think he should pay his salary back.

  36. Ken MacColl says:

    We had a fairly full cross section of our political leaders on screen today. This served to demonstrate – as if it was not already clear – that in the First Minister and her newly appointed deputy we have intelligent, articulate politicians able to express themselves clearly and concisely whereas the official Secretary of State and the Labour MP for Morningside stuttered and dithered. Mercifully we were spared any contribution from Kezia.

  37. Proud Cybernat says:

    I don’t give a hee-haw that Neil gave Mundell a “pretty uncomfortable time”. Neil could have totally nailed the snivelling, lying git but chose to let him off the hook. Just like the BBC ALWAYS DOES with these Yoon liars.

    “It’s true! Ah heard it oan the BBC.”


  38. Liz g says:

    Wonder what Fluffy would be like in a debate with Nicola if he did lead Better Together 2,dont know if I could watch that kind of carnage.
    Not even just Nicola any of them from the Indy Ref 1 campaign really.

  39. John Munro says:

    The reality is that the existence of Mundell as Secretary of State shows how far Scottish politics has come away from Westminster. Mundell is not Scotland’s man in London. That’s left to Sturgeon and Davidson on their visits. Mundell is simply a human Dictaphone (Remember them?) who relays Westminster’s commands to the Jocko plebs.

  40. Rock says:

    Why is Mundell still the Tory Viceroy of Scotland?

    Because Patrick Harvie and the Greens stood a candidate against the SNP and let Mundell get in through the middle.

    Vote only SNP in 2017 and at all elections until after independence.

  41. Vestas says:

    Two unionists soon to become obsolete.

    For those of you living in England (like me) – can you see any reason why Andrew Neil or other “proud scots” would continue to be employed by the BBC after Scottish independence?

    They’re out on their arse, same as Fluffy is.

  42. Angus Gother says:

    Mundell would still be SoS against Scotland even if every MSP was from the SNP.
    Prime Numpty May appointed Mundell. Scottish Parliament had nothing at all to do with it.

  43. Luigi says:

    This is getting weird:

    The Tories want us to respect the 55% who voted NO, but not the 62% who voted REMAIN.

    What planet is Snackbeard on?

  44. Sheryl Hepworth says:

    Liz G at 6.20pm.
    Let’s set Mhairi Black onto this!! 21 year old, youngest MP versus Tory SoS, supposedly eminent politician!! Carnage of the highest order!! Bring it on!!

  45. msean says:

    I’m sure I remember there were some saying that it was ok to vote NO as there would be a UK Labour government after the UK general election .Tories are here for more than a couple of elections. It was 18 years last time.

  46. ronnie anderson says:

    Poor wee Fluffy as a crossdresser you would think he knew whit part of the body the knickers went oan, its certainly no er the heid Fluffy.

  47. Luigi says:

    Remember another BT appeal to voters in 2014:

    “If you are not sure, just vote NO”

    If some people did vote NO in 2014, because they were not sure, I wonder what they are thinking now?

  48. Mark Russell says:

    I’m old enough to remember when a politician would be obliged to resign if it was discovered that they lied -about anything – as it demonstrated character. What a squalid little shite.

  49. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Reprehensible toad.

    The strongest evidence to link Mundell to FrenchGate was captured on this site, has been available via YT for yonks, but has had just shy of 15k views.

    Even Severin Carrell looked gobsmacked, and there seemed to be an embarrassed acceptance that Mundell would have to face more questions.

    So, did he?

    Did he fuck.

    He got away with it – and people wonder why he’ll do May’s bidding, no matter what humiliation he has to endure?

    Please bring the following to the attention of anyone who even suggests that Mundell is anything but a lying jam-boy.

  50. Calum McKay says:

    Mundell is good for Scotland, in fact he is brilliant for us!!

    In the absence of labour Scottish mps, liberal Scottish mps and tory Scottish, there can only be one person to lead the unionist charge in Indy ref 2, and that person is Mundell.

    This blithering idiot will be an absolute gift from heaven for the independence cause during Indy ref 2.

    The sheen will continue to fade from Davidson as she is exposed as working against Scotland’s interests and peddling right wing tory dogma. People can compare the Scottish government’s education, university fees, NHS, energy, environment / fracking, defence / trident, care of the elderly and Inclusion policies versus those of a right wing tory government destined to rule the uk for the next two decades as labour continues to destroy itself.

    Mundell is to the SNP, as Corbyn is to the tories, a gift!

  51. Stoker says:

    Sorry, could only hack 58 seconds of that footage before i felt like i was going to explode. I noted the snivelling wee brown-nosed bastard is still tied to his masters strings, watch his hands.

    Creepy subservient freak!

  52. Richard Smith says:

    Exactly what was that shite he was coming out with about a ” UK single market”?

  53. ScotishPsyche says:

    What we need is a ‘bot’ that searches out ‘black hole’, ‘once in a generation’ etc. and love bombs the perpetrators with facts.

  54. Rock says:

    Angus Gother,

    Mundell would still be SoS against Scotland even if every MSP was from the SNP.
    Prime Numpty May appointed Mundell. Scottish Parliament had nothing at all to do with it.”

    He almost certainly would not if he had not been elected as an MP.

    And he would almost certainly not have been elected an MP if Patrick Harvey and the Greens had not put up a candidate against the SNP in a first past the post vote in which they had no chance of being elected.

    The Tories would have been forced to appoint an unelected Lord to be Viceroy and it would almost certainly not have been Mundell.

    I did not say that the Scottish parliament had anything to do with it.

  55. yesindyref2 says:

    So Mundell was flat-out lying when he told Andrew Neil – who’d questioned him in the context of “Better Together”, not the Conservatives – that …

    which also shows Mundell thinks the BT campaign was Labour-fronted with the Tories pulling the strings. Which of course makes Darling, Curran, Murphy, Davidson et al great fans of Sandie Shaw (well, they have one redeeming feature at least).

  56. Liz g says:

    Sheryl Hepworth @ 7.03
    Don’t know why I didn’t think of her first.
    I would pay good money to see that debate.

  57. Rock says:

    Mark Russell,

    “I’m old enough to remember when a politician would be obliged to resign if it was discovered that they lied -about anything – as it demonstrated character. What a squalid little shite.”

    He lied but at least has not been taken to court yet.

    Carmichael is a proven liar yet he was allowed to continue as a legally elected MP by a court.

    The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

    In UK politics today, only SNP politicians are held to account.

    The rest are allowed to get away despite lying through their teeth.

  58. Liz g says:

    Rock @ 7.34
    Angus Gother is right about it being May who appointed the Secretary of State for Scotland and they don’t have to be an MP.
    Thatcher did it with Michael Forsythe.

  59. McDuff says:

    For me the starting gun for IndyRef2 is not just about Brexit important as it is, its about the assurances made by Westminster in the run up to IndyRef 1 that were subsequently broken after the No vote.
    I do wish SNP ministers would highlight this when being interviewed on tv as it is important to constantly remind the public of the lies and deceit that was the No campaign.

  60. Giving Goose says:

    I was asked an interesting question while listening to LBC radio earlier this afternoon. The LBC show was about President Putin and why he has so much support in the West.

    Stick with me….

    LBC produced an expert who stated that Putin would react to sanctions imposed on his personal wealth. He and his associates allegedly launder money through London financial institutions. The trouble comes in finding the will to applying sanctions. It won’t happen because the London financial institutions would lose out financially. Corrupt to the core.

    Boris Johnson was holding talks on Syria and holding Russian to account to stop the bombing of Allepo.

    Of course Boris could make the very sanctions detailed on LBC happen, but he won’t because he, Boris, represents and protects the very vested interests that would lose out if the sanctions against Putin were applied, i.e. London!

    Westminster; corrupt to it’s core.

    So I was then asked a question about an Independent Scotland.

    “What’s the point of Independence and how can we put faith in decisions made in Edinburgh as apposed to those currently made in London?

    The person who asked is Anti-Putin.

    I answered thus…

    “Putin can be stopped now. Boris and the Westminster Government can apply sanctions immediately, as detailed on LBC, but they won’t.”

    I then detailed why they won’t as per above and followed with an additional comment.

    “Boris Johnson and the London Government can bluster as much as they like but as long as they are corrupt and put the vested interests of the corrupt financial institutions above those of innocents and that of ethical foreign policy then you will not see any meaningful actions taken against Putin and his associates.

    “And it is this that demonstrates to me that having the ability and the power to make our own decisions is far better than having London make the wrong decisions on our behalf. London is to corrupt to be trusted and that has been quite obviously demonstrated today.”

    A huge penny dropped.

    The question I was aske

  61. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ McDuff

    “…it is important to constantly remind the public of the lies and deceit that was the No campaign.”

    You mean like this…

  62. Angus Gother says:

    Ah, I’d forgotten about that aspect of the 2015 GE. Didn’t realise that was what you were referring to.
    I think that was when I went off the idea of splitting my vote in 2016, as it was clear that the Green leadership hadn’t taken the full idea seriously. You may recall that was for Greens to vote SNP in 2015, and in return SNP supporters would vote Green on the list in 2016.
    I now regard all forms of tactical voting to be dishonest.
    We need serious reform of the voting system if we want to encourage decent turnouts and accommodate voters who don’t like the options presented to them.

  63. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanks muchly for that link! I’ve added it to my page

  64. ian murray says:

    Too soon for OT ?

    How are Scotland’s exports to England calculated?
    eg An engineering company fabricates some bridge supports that are sold to Bristol.How is that tracked?
    Scottish whisky shipped to Germany via Southampton is that in our column or the UK column?

  65. ian murray says:


  66. One_Scot says:

    Every fibre in my being is screaming June 2018.

  67. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 7.40
    Fluffy was also lying when he said if the SNP vote on Grammar school’s it could only be for attention.
    He knows fine well that the Education budgets are linked he’s the Scottish Secretary FFS.
    And Andrew Neil knows it too,could they be anymore obvious in their set pieces?

  68. awkwardboy says:

    At 6:40(ish) it sounds to me like fluffy says “I want to make sure we get the best arrangement from Scotland”.
    Genuine gaff or Freudian slip?

  69. msean says:

    Wonder how much of that uk single market trade is eventually exported,but to elsewhere but not credited as Scottish exports. Maybe we in Scotland should invest in ports lol.

  70. ian murray says:

    Too wee, too poor, too stupid
    This mantra has to be taken apart
    You can bet that Westminster is fiddling the books to make us look bad, we must be able to show how Scotland will be successful
    Don’t get in the weeds Keep it simple keep it short

  71. yesindyref2 says:

    @ian murray

    Thursday, November 30 2017, for me.

  72. Scott Borthwick says:

    I also recall a number of independence polls which showed that support for independence soared over 50% when asked in the context of how would you vote if there was likely to be a Conservative majority in the next General Election.

    I assumed the false narrative of a prospective Milliband victory was pushed on purpose to head off that sentiment.

    If so, it worked.

    Sadly, they feel that pushing a false prospectus will always work.

  73. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, for a full moon for 3 days solid, Saturday, Sunday and Monday after a YES vote.

    Owooooooooooohoooo free at last

  74. Legerwood says:

    “”Liz g says:
    16 October, 2016 at 7:48 pm
    Rock @ 7.34
    Angus Gother is right about it being May who appointed the Secretary of State for Scotland and they don’t have to be an MP.
    Thatcher did it with Michael Forsythe.””


    Michael Forsythe was an MP from 1983-97. He was appointed Secretary of State for Scotland by John Major in 1995 and served in that position until 1997 GE.

    He was an Undersecretary in the SoS 1987-90 during Mrs Thatcher’s premiership but he was an MP.

  75. Lochside says:

    Mundell the Blue Nun of Scottish politics…a shambles of a man…an apology for a human being chewing on dried spunk on his beard.And his side kick Ruth the laughing cavalier… a sociopathic fraud…BBC trained and managed until she becomes expendable and becomes a stand in for Susan Calman on some other BBC Radio laugh in show for tory berks.

  76. galamcennalath says:

    Mark Russell says:

    I’m old enough to remember when a politician would be obliged to resign if it was discovered that they lied

    Indeed. I went looking on google for good examples but was overwhelmed 🙂

    Found this juicy ‘little’ list ….

  77. Scott Borthwick says:

    msean says:
    16 October, 2016 at 8:02 pm

    Wonder how much of that uk single market trade is eventually exported,but to elsewhere but not credited as Scottish exports. Maybe we in Scotland should invest in ports lol.

    I’m sure you know, but for those that don’t, we had a phenomenal port company. Forth Ports Authority. Privatised in 1992. It was on the Stock Exchange until it went completely private, taken over by a private equity fund. It owns the five ports on the Firth of Forth, as well as Dundee and Tilbury in London. It also has a massive land bank in Edinburgh and London, estimated to be over 400 acres.

    There’s your infrastructure, squirreled away in investment funds.

  78. call me dave says:

    Catching up from yesterday and was in a good frame of mind too until I saw this in the Herald.

    Where are all these folk coming from? FGS!

    Yes campaign leader warns that independence movement is in retreat

  79. Ian says:

    Fluffy was using the exact same lie on Any Questions this week too.

  80. Dr Jim says:

    If Mundell hadn’t been elected as an MP (Greens) he wouldn’t have got a job as anything because there would have been no Scottish Tories (again Greens)

    So the Tories would have had to appoint some other beard munching Toady probably from the Lords
    Point being Scotland would have been a completely Tory free zone (Greens again)
    And Scotlands mainland would have been all Yellow (Greens)

    I don’t understand not understanding the significance of this

  81. Macart says:


    No redeeming qualities whatsoever. Not courage, integrity, talent nor, quite obviously, honesty. A Tory gopher and apologist for one of the most appalling right wing governments since Thatchers time.

    That’s pretty much it.

  82. Liz g says:

    Legerwood @ 8.27
    Thanks for that correction.

    I was always under the impression that when he lost the election in Scotland,he was then made a Lord and was brought back in to government,as the Scottish Secretary.

    Now that’s information that I picked up pre internet hanging around militant Bellshill,and would had to have been sourced from Labour.

    If it is totally false,dosent it show what liar’s they were even then, I mean it wasn’t even necessary no one there was ever going to vote Tory.

    Wondering what else they made up that myself and others just absorbed.
    I don’t think we would ever have gotten the measure of Labour without the internet.

    Thanks again for taking the time to correct me.

  83. Giving Goose at 7.52

    There are many reasons that Putin is so popular in the West, not least that he is running rings around the axis of evil – US/UK/Saudi Arabia – in the Middle East.

    He did not invade Iraq or Afghanistan or blow Libya back to the middle ages.

    He has not surrounded the US with threatening military installations the way the US has surrounded Russia.

    He is legitimately operating in Syria in support of the legitimate government of Syria who asked him to help destroy the islamic lunatics that had seized part of Syria.These are the lunatics that the US and Saudi Arabia funded and armed to try to overthrow the honestly elected president of Syria. We were pretending to fight them.

    Russia has cleared huge areas of Syria from these lunatics and sent in massive aid. Remains East Aleppo, still infested by lunatics that behead children. Syria offered free evacuation out of east Aleppo before the Russian air strikes and many took it.

    Considering we have bombed Iraq and Libya back to the middle ages and just voted in Parliament to bomb Syria the hypocrisy we are being fed is staggering.

    We are being lied to about Syria on a monumental scale and have been lied to since the US decided to take Syria down in 2009.

  84. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    And who do you think is doing the best job for Independence – David Mundell, or just one more SNP MP?

  85. heedtracker says:

    call me dave says:
    16 October, 2016 at 8:48 pm
    Catching up from yesterday and was in a good frame of mind too until I saw this in the Herald.

    Its a cracker. On the one hand red and blue tory yoon culture screaming their heads off Sturgeon wont stop raising Scottish independence, on t’other,

    “Fox, who was an MSP from 2003 to 2007, claims the SNP had barely raised the issue of independence in the run up to the UK 2015 General Election and during this year’s Holyrood election campaign.
    “The SNP did not make the case for independence at the elections in 2015 and 2016. It’s like independence is the love that dare not speak its name,” he said.”

    Is Scotland over loaded with chancers and fcukwits:D

  86. Legerwood says:

    Liz g @ 8.56pm

    Probably the reason I knew he was an MP and Secretary of State for Scotland was that he was my MP. At the risk of getting jumped on from a great height I have to say he was a good constituency MP politics not withstanding.

  87. Legerwood says:

    All this discussion of SoS what about the Labour Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland? What is he position on all of this or is it irrelevant?

  88. Liz g says:

    Legerwood @ 9.07
    I really only knew of him when he was campaigning against the Scottish Parliament back in 97.
    But I can see why you would think him a good MP,while I hate his politics and all that he campaigns for.
    I can see that he is intelligent and certainly knows his subject when taking about Scotland.
    Unlike today’s shambles I mean the best that the government can do when it comes to Scotland,is,Fluffy???

  89. Thepnr says:

    Independence is of course a political issue here in Scotland but it shouldn’t be a party political issue.

    Colin Fox it seems is guilty of making it one if that Herald article is to be believed. That’s a pity.

    I would like to think that regular posters on here though are much more objective, in other words I welcome support for Independence from wherever it may come. It doesn’t matter to me whether that support is right wing, left wing or the lunatic wing provided they do not support violence or racism.

    It will take in excess of 50% of voters in another referendum to win the goal that we seek, 8% of Greens for example is a lot of votes potentially on our side. We should welcome that support.

    Not everyone is or will be an SNP supporter but increasing support of the SNP is not our goal. Independence is.

    Those that are too small minded to appreciate that in order to win we should be inclusive and not divisive then I’m not really interested in their views. Scotland ever after Independence will be divided because at least 45% will have voted NO. We are going to have to work through what may be difficult times.

    Sidelining or ignoring support from non SNP quarters is just plain daft. Forget parties and focus on Independence only.

    Don’t be labelled as tribal, that’s in our best interests.

  90. Giving Goose says:

    Dave @ 9:03

    Agreed and I would add that there are huge levels of mistrust of the MSM in the west.
    Understandable, just look at the experience in Scotland.

  91. Neil Cook says:

    Fluffy and his ilk will be given scripts from the media to read when questioned. It’s only because he is a bumbling idiot that he can’t even get that right and needs help from the interviewer!!

    As for independence until the Independent Central Bank of Scotland is formed I can’t see us winning. If you can’t control investment and infrastructure projects without going cap in hand to WM we will always be a loser.

  92. twathater says:

    Jack Collatin 5.05 pm Great post Jack

    Alternatively I am trying to be respectful here,can i ask no voters and supporters of the union a genuine question, Is this what you voted for, are you happy that this man represents you and your best interests, is it OK for this man and others to deliberately lie ,obfuscate,misrepresent and mislead the Scottish people, in an effort to shackle a more socially responsible aiming Scotland to a divisive , class ridden and corrupt socially irresponsible government.

    I ask the voters of all the unionist parties, are you happy to be represented by tories who want to introduce reprehensible divisive sectarianism into Scottish politics,or Slabour who when they were in power didn’t bother with council house building, didn’t object to this tory gov inflicting more and more austerity on the poorest and weakest of our society,rather than on the bas**rds who created this mess.

    No they simply abstained en mass with the non socialist attitude of fcuk youse i’m alright, they even told us they would introduce their own version of austerity, maybe austerity light, is that what you wanted to hear. Are you happy to hear all the unionist parties heckle and jeer at the Scottish governments attempts to minimise the impact of continuous underfunding, whilst not offering any support or alternatives.

    Look at the array of unionist MSP’s do you really think they offer value for money, tories for fracking irrespective of the impact on our fresh water supplies,the threat of earthquakes,the damage to our environment, slabour more interested in railway timetables rather than foodbanks or how the great repeal act will impact on employment within Scotland.

    I ask again, is this shower of self serving twats what you consider to be representative of who you want to look after your interests.
    I would ask you to look at the record of the SNP SG operating under extreme conditions, and consider deeply what kind of future you want for your children and grandchildren I know what I want and the ONLY government capable of delivering it SNP forward to the FUTURE

  93. crazycat says:

    @ Liz g

    Forsyth (no e) was ennobled after he lots his Commons seat – though not immediately (1999).

    So you’re right about that, but the next opportunity for him to have been SoS was not until 2010 when Labour lost office, and Carmichael was given the job then.

    That, presumably, was to avoid having to appoint either Mundell or a Lord, and to keep the LibDems sweet(ish).

  94. heedtracker says:

    Angus RobertsonVerified account
    The UK Govt is planning single-market access for the City of London. So why not Scotland, where 62% of voters chose ‘Remain’? #Brexit #EU

    Billions for the EU, if they give the City a free EU pass, is probably not what Brexiteers had in mind. What ever happened to a new UKOK hospital a week and so on?

    Should be interesting watching BBC gimps sell this to the plebs of the UK zone.

  95. crazycat says:


    I did look at the pre-view box – honest – but saw what should have been there, not what was.

  96. heedtracker says:

    Rancid The Graun. I loved the 70’s, reading by candle light was fun! Proud Scotbuts must be so proud.

    Ireland beyond Brexit
    Irish leaders fear Brexit will bring economic disaster
    Enda Kenny prepares for unprecedented cross-border talks amid fears over future of Ireland’s borders, exports, security and economy

  97. Thepnr says:


    Londons financial sector is toast after Brexit. All the big banks will be looking for new headquarters.

    Preferably English speaking, Edinburgh and Glasgow might do very well out of Brexit providing Scotland remains in the EU.

  98. heedtracker says:

    Thepnr says:
    16 October, 2016 at 9:57 pm

    It looks like it. New York or Wall Street’s gearing up for massive expansion as the City ups sticks. Wall Street’s the favoured move by most banks, if only because the UK wont be able to afford the luxury of too big to fail banksters. WTF were Leave thinking of.

  99. Glamaig says:

    “The UK Govt is planning single-market access for the City of London.”

    theyre planning it, like they have any control over it… I hope the EU tells them to GTF

  100. heedtracker says:

    Rancid the Graun thing on just how bad Brexit is for Ireland is worth a look, if only because rancid wouldn’t dream of doing the same for their Scotland region. Its not a coincidence for the rule Britannia Britnats of the UK zone.

  101. Petra says:

    Looks as though you should be doing Andrew Neil’s job for him Stu. Seems to be getting loadsa money for doing nought. Oh no I forgot he’s the Establishment’s mouthpiece. Worth his weight in gold to them.

    Mundell the man who worked in the same office as Carmichael, the liar, during the Frenchgate affair. The Frenchgate affair that to my mind greatly influenced the outcome of the Election. Ensured that Labour didn’t win. I’m sure his recollection of that time is totally unimpaired, especially as he looked as though he was going to have diarrhoea when being questioned about it. Mundell the liar who suffers from selective memory syndrome.

    The one good thing about all of this is that when we get our Independence Mundell’s post will become defunct. He’ll be out on his erse heading towards the House of Lords, no doubt. Lord Beardy Weirdy.

    We’ll also have our own broadcasting service which will have the capacity to show Andrew Neil up as a manipulative, biased liar. Programmes that’ll out ‘the parcel of rogues’. Modern Scottish history that will be taught in our schools showing them all up for what they are. The whole kit and caboodle of them. Tick, tock.

  102. Watching some of the great speeches of Malcolm X,

    he has one that sums up the likes of Mundell,Murray,Neil,Wark and a thousand others,

    called The House Negro and the Field Negro,

  103. Petra says:

    I see that highlights from the Conference are going to shown on BBC2 at 22:35pm. Surprise, surprise. I wonder if they’ll include the part where Nicola mentions how rich we are?

  104. Gail Hughes says:

    The Edinburgh agreement also said that both governments would work to implement the result of the referendum in the interests of both Scotland and the UK. In what way is Mundell now working in Scotland’s best interests? Having campaigned in the EU referendum that EU membership was important to Scotland’s interests why is the best he can do now to “wait and see what proposals come from the Scottish Government”. Why isn’t he, and why isn’t the UK government, coming up with proposals?

  105. heedtracker says:

    called The House Negro and the Field Negro,

    Its the raw fear in Mundell’s eyes that really stands out. And its fear in seated in front of very tory toryboy henchman too. Maybe the Ligger’s just one scary Murdoch MOFO to go anywhere near. You can learn a lot from the Ligger though.

  106. Petra says:

    Single market access for the City of London? With free movement of labour? How’s that going to work out? How are they going to prevent furriners from wandering off into the English countryside? Build a wall round London like the Vatican? Border control?

  107. ScottishPsyche says:


    Some of the most powerful moments in history have come from the Black Power era. There was a conversation here back a couple of weeks talking about plantation owners and overseers and the parallels here. The House Negro and the Field Negro is equally valid. ‘I am one of you not one of them’.

    Of course for literal parallels, see the whole land reform argument.

  108. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi crazycat.

    Was Michael Moore not SOS for Scotland, prior to Carmichael?

    I seem to recall that Carmichael was brought in because Moore was seen as ‘lightweight’.

  109. Capella says:

    @ Petra, they’ve already said that Bankers should not be subject to immigration controls. Nor Polish construction workers.

    So free movement for Bankers, Polish builders and students in Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial College (apt) and Bath. Think that’s all.

    Can just see EU enthusiastically adopting that in exchange for access to the Single Market.

  110. Meg merrilees says:

    Quite an amazing interview really. I don’t imagine Mundell will want to keep this one for his archives but we will! Normally Neil is mocking Scotland, dismissing our MPs and MSPs but today he was clearly exasperated with shape shifting Mundell.

    How dare Mundell say that every vote the SNP cast in WM is purely opportunistic, the loathing floods out of the man. Personally, I can’t stand him.

    Clear to me that Ruth Davidson is limbering up to lead the Union side – didn’t she hint that she would be happy to accept the standing invitation to May’s cabinet BUT she has a job to do first. Also, clearly trying to get into as many living-room TV screens as possible in familiar scenarios to create that friendly, you-can-trust-me, girl-next-door persona to win the elderly over. obnoxious woman!

    David Mundell, Alastair Carmichael, Ian Murray… What a shower!
    That they are the sole representatives of Tory, Lib Dem and Labour Scotland speaks volumes. Very glad I don’t support one of those parties.

    Thank goodness for our amazing team of MP’s. Mhairi Black; Joanna Cherry, Angus Robertson; Tommy Sheppard and all the other brilliant people fighting our corner.

  111. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    In that Herald article re: Colin Fox, he states,

    “”At the recent rallies the SNP was not present.”

    At the Glasgow Green rally on the 18th September, I stood and listened to some guy called Tommy Sheppard, speaking on the stage.

    I thought he was an SNP MP. Obviously, I’m mistaken, coz Colin Fox must be right. After all, “it said so in the papers…”

  112. shug says:

    Even with soft balls he looked and sounded like a complete chump

    I hope he as better at making tea or there will be no job at all for him in the Brexiting committee

  113. crazycat says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon

    Yes! You’re absolutely right. His tenure was obviously very memorable! (Poor chap – I think he was a much better person for the job than Carmichael, partly because he occasionally thought for himself and admitted it – can’t have that, of course.)

  114. shug says:

    Even with soft balls he sounded a complete chump

  115. Tam Jardine says:

    My memory of this period was that only folk on places like Wings were of the view that our best chance of staying in the EU was through a Yes vote. I will need to navigate my way back to posts at the time but the idea that the average No voter entertained the possibility of voting No and then leaving the EU is to rewrite history.

    To give Stu credit he called that Ed Miliband would not win the election from waaay the hell back and there were many who believed that an EU ref could well happen and that in that circumstance we were heading for the EU door but it was very much a fringe yes pre-occupation.

    The tory manifesto for 2015 has a pic of DC on the front page. Below his pic it reads:

    “Strong Leadership

    A Clear Economic Plan

    a Brighter, More Secure Future”

    (I suppose had they written:

    “Leadership will abdicate during a major crisis

    No plan whatsoever for what happens in the event of a Leave vote

    A Dismal, far more Uncertain and Insecure Future” they would not have done quite so well at the ballot box)

    Anyway- the manifesto is where they set it in stone that they would, in the uber-unlikely event of them winning a majority, hold an In-Out EU ref. The manifesto launch was on the 15th of April 2015.

    So when David Mundell claims “People voted in Scotland, and voted decisively to remain part of the United Kingdom, in the full knowledge that there would be an EU referendum.” what he is saying is that the electorate in Scotland had access to the future knowledge that not only would the tories definitely put an EU referendum in their manifesto some 7 months later, but that the tories would win a majority against the odds the next month and that Cameron would follow through with his manifesto commitment.

    Mundell is simply lying.

  116. Liz g says:

    Heedtracker @ 10.36
    Whatever was causing Fluffy to be so frightened,it was definitely to to with Neil.
    Although he sprouts the same rubbish at the presenter during his interview on Sky , and is still a bad liar.
    He doesn’t look frightened.

    So it can’t be that he is lying.
    It can’t be that he is nervous about being interviewed.
    He is used to being on TV.

    It’s very curious as to why he behaved as he did.
    As the Rev points out there were several places Neil could have went for him and exposed him for lying.
    He was even gifted the chance to do the SNP bad,and only trying to upset the English routine.
    So it wasn’t even as if he was in a hostile environment.

    Can’t work it out what was really going on there at all.

  117. Dr Jim says:

    Just one more SNP MP quite obviously because the Tories would have had to give someone the job who was sod all to do with Scotland at all, if you want to talk resentment

    Plus the SNP could rightly have claimed the Tories had absolutely no representation whatsoever in Scotland

    Don’t hear the Greens defending Scotland yet, no still can’t hear them or see them
    They’ll be waiting for the right oppotunity eh?

  118. Graeme Doig says:

    DMH @ 9:03

    Agreed. Putin certainly has an agenda but it seems to be more of a protectionist one as opposed to the wests expansionist madness.

    I’m always impressed when I hear Sergie Lavrov speak and consider Putin to be a shrewd operator.

    Maybe I trust the Russians more because I am only too well aware of the shitehawks in Westminster and equate that with the Wests machinations.

  119. Petra says:

    @ Capella …. “Free movement of Labour.”

    They’ll pick and choose who’ll get in? With the focus on England’s needs of course. This can’t be right. Someone must be pulling our leg. IF there’s any truth to this the EU will tell them to get lost. Many English people who have been complaining about Polish workers will tell them to get lost.

    And do they really think that they’ll get away with say discriminating between Polish construction workers and German? The lunatics have taken over the asylum right enough. Westminster the laughingstock of the World.


    The coverage of the Conference was really good. Crammed in quite a lot in a short time. Some woman talking about Trident with Trump and Boris in charge would have put the wind up a few viewers. Figures were quoted to highlight that Scotland is not a one (oil) trick pony. Russell basically saying that they can’t / won’t block Indyref2. The Brains were shown, kids in care and so on. Surprising unbiased.

  120. Ruby says:

    Brian Doonthetoon

    Yes Michael Moore was SOS before Carmichael

    Michael Moore got sacked because he did so badly in the TV debate with Nicola Sturgeon so they brought in ‘The Bruiser’-The Hammer of the Nats’ who did even worse in the ‘Help me Rona’ TV debate.

  121. Still Positive. says:

    My MP posts his retweets on FB so we all see them and the last one he did was re the Irish situation.

    I have also read links to The Guardian’s articles on the Irish situation (also on FB) from both Enda Kenny and Martin McGuiness re the disaster for Ireland because of the falling pound making their exports to UK dearer.

    Also a lot of their exports are food and have a low (2%) profit margin. If there are tariffs of 17% that means a net loss to those businesses of 15%.

    The repercussions of Brexit casts a wide net. Scandalous that the Tory row should cost harm to the innocents in another country.

    They should be totally ashamed but they won’t be.

  122. Grouse Beater says:

    Resolution proposed at conference by Tony Guiliano, and approved by the expected huge majority:

    Conference believes that every avenue must be explored to keep Scotland in the EU. If no viable solution to safeguard our membership as part of the UK exists, Scotland should prepare for a second independence referendum and seek to remain in Europe as an independent country.”

  123. heedtracker says:

    Liz g says:
    16 October, 2016 at 11:15 pm
    Heedtracker @ 10.36
    Whatever was causing Fluffy to be so frightened,it was definitely to to with Neil.
    Although he sprouts the same rubbish at the presenter during his interview on Sky , and is still a bad liar.
    He doesn’t look frightened.

    It was the exact same script he’d memorised for BBC r4 Any Questions show at Glasgow last week, exactly the same, right down to Scotland losing a million UKOK jobs with independence. Its that desperate yoon wise now. Or its a just another facet of a tory corrupted BBC where lines are rehearsed over and over.

  124. A few comments about Michael Moore. I saw him at conference. I always rather thought him to be pretty straightforward and honest. I would welcome him into the SNP or onto the bandwagon.

  125. Ruby says:

    There was an enormous amount of press coverage about the EU during the IndyRef. I don’t think a day went past without some article about the EU. It probably all started with Tugendhat’s letter to Barroso. Then there was the Crawford & Boyle legal advice which stated Scotland ceased to exist in 1707. The UK Gov refused to approach the EC for a definite answer

    This is what Michael Forsyth had to say to Michael Moore

    at 15.58.09

    Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: You said that you wanted the debate to be as informed as possible. One of the things that Mr Swinney said to us last week was that they had a difficulty in establishing what the position would be vis-a?-vis having to apply for membership of Europe or whether they would be allowed to remain in Europe because the Commission would only talk to Governments, and that the British Government were not prepared to engage on this issue. I find it a bit puzzling how you can reconcile saying, “We are not prepared to talk to the Commission as a Government about what the consequences would be”, with saying at the same time, “We want to have a fully informed debate”. Does Mr Swinney not have a point there?

  126. Liz g says:

    Petra @ 11.27

    That’s a few times now we are getting a bit of balance in the media.
    I suspect that they are building up an archive to trott out during the Referendum.
    So the can say we are all crazy for thinking the media are biased.

    Also…. might be me actually being crazy,but sometimes over the last few weeks it seems like they are trying to get England used to Scotland not being around.
    In a sort of face-saving no big deal kind of way.
    It would make sense in a perverse kind of way as well cause they won’t have Europe to blame for people being skint anymore.
    It will be us that robbed them when we left.

  127. heedtracker says:

    Hi Ruby, where have you been lately? I’ve missed my Ruby replies.

  128. crazycat says:

    @ Ruby

    Hello! I was wondering only the other day what had become of you, so it’s good to see you posting again.

  129. Ruby says:

    There was an enormous amount of press coverage and debate about the EU during the IndyRef and none of it included info about a future EU Ref.

    Remember Lord Lipsey with his “last refuge of scoundrels” remark.

  130. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Just thinking, errmm…

    If T May wants the City of London/bankers etc to get single-market access at any cost, does she also want that for the second largest financial centre in the UK – Edinburgh!

    Or is she going to sacrifice some bankers for others?

  131. K1 says:

    Just found this ‘good’ article on Washington Post about Scotland’s renewable sector, we’re having a ‘quiet energy revolution’…even mentions our subsidies been taken away by WM, jeez it’s so rare to find positive stories about our country that I just had to share! It really makes ye miss quality journalism actually investigating subject matter afore publishing.

    Comments are no bad, , some ‘yoonistic’ pish being sorted out btl by some tuned in folks too: (not archived as comments won’t show otherwise)

  132. Cactus says:

    Viva Barcelona Margo!

    Si Catalonia!

  133. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Actually, I would go slightly further than the (excellent) article’s recall of events. The very highest expectation that anyone had for the Tories in the UKGE was that there would be a continuation of the Tory-LibDem coalition, in which context it was widely thought that the EUref promise was only included in the Tory manifesto as a conveniently-discardable sop to the LibDems, post-election. Cameron got saddled with the consequence when his “Miliband dependent on Sturgeon” tactic did better with the English than expected.

    The rest, as they say, is history.

    I’ve said it elsewhere, but worth repeating here. I believe that the Brexit result is the UK’s “second Suez”. As serious as that. A last-gasp imperial pretention unmasked by events as a completely unsustainable mirage.

    The first, which unwound rapidly after the USA put the big squeeze on the pound, led the French (who were also involved) to seek shelter in the security of a European communality, which eventually evolved into the present EU. A shared bulwark against big-power hegemony. (A motivation of which present-day Leavers often seem quite ignorant.) The Brits on the other hand became beggars for crumbs at the US table, which eventually led to Blair’s unfortunate sycophancy.

    This time round the nemesis of the UK’s imperial last stand, ironically enough, will be the EU itself.

  134. Chic McGregor says:

    Alex Salmond said in his opinion the indy ref would be a once in a generation event.

    He did not define what a generation was.

    He did not claim this was SNP policy.

    He did not claim this was the opinion of the rest of the pro indy support.

    He would, however, have been well aware that to suggest that another referendum could quickly follow the first, would be deleterious to the success of that first referendum.

  135. Cactus says:

    XXX ~ Steeerike Three ~ Yooooou’re out, Mundell.

    Scotland.. I love.


  136. Petra says:

    @ Liz at 11:52pm …..”Media balance.”

    Yeah I don’t know what to make of it Liz. Have they had so many complaints that they’re bucking up to some extent? We know that A Neil made the great omission however he did get right into Mundell’s ribs highlighting what a sneaky, evasive wee liar he is. The coverage of the Conference I reckon was very positive for us and then there was that chap Papadopoulos (or whatever) who set them straight on Putin recently.

    Maybe they’re aware that the eyes of the World are on them due to Brexit? Maybe they know that their days are numbered? Who knows? I do get this feeling that many people realise now that we ARE leaving maybe due to them knowing that they can’t use the same rotten old threats such as out of the EU, NATO and so on. The new ‘threats’ will be down to the strength of our economy. loss of trade with rUK, defence and immigration, imo.

    The media bias is so utterly galling. If someone in the MSM would just tell the truth, for a few short hours one night, we’d be Independent in a heart beat.


    @ Boris at 11:23pm …. “Elections.’

    Great, not, that they set a 40% limit (40% of the total electorate) on the 1979 Scottish election for Yes to win and yet Cameron got in with 36% of votes from 66% of the electorate. In other words he won with around 20 odd percent of total UK votes (and very few from us of course). The Brexiters won with 30 odd percent votes of the total electorate and of course Theresa May is ruling the roost with no one voting for her at all. That’s what you call democracy in the UK.

  137. Liz g says:

    Petra @ 12.57
    Glad it’s not just me picking up a wee bit of a change.
    Mibbi I’m no crazy after all…..

  138. K1 says:

    Brewer asked Angus Robertson about this meeting that May had with the Nissan Boss ref suggestions the ‘British government might negotiate deals with specific industries, like the car industry (that they) could sort of stay in the single market, even if Britain leaves’. He then asks Angus if that should apply to industries (could the SNP not make the case) why should it not apply to geographical areas like Scotland?

    Angus agrees this is the point that the FM is making that ‘it is possible to find different solutions’. He goes on to cite the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man with different arrangements with EU. It’s worth a listen to:

    Starts at 2:47 on the vid:

    In the above vid Angus basically confirms that should WM seriously engage with Scotland and a way forward be found (nevah gonnae happen) then independence would be off the table. (hahaha)

    Gotta say I fuckin’ love our FM’s/SNP’s balls, they think we are ‘bluffing’? Naw we’re no…but they will be fully exposed for the absolute back stabbing bastards that they are on a much wider international platform than they ever have been before.

    FM’s playing a blinder, make no mistake about that.

  139. manandboy says:

    Thanks boris for the link to calton jock’s look back at the 1979 referendum, which was knobbled by Labour MP, George Cunningham, with the 40% rule.

    Jock’s reminder of 1979 and 2014, is a difficult read as it has a high propensity to induce a bout of despair. But, more to the point, the sheer gullibility of the Scottish electorate in 1979, which was still very much present in 2014, will, no doubt, feature again with IndyRef2.

    I find comparison with the people of North Korea appropriate as both nations have two things in common, notably, a high degree of trust in their Government (Hanoi & Westminster), and the all pervading presence of State Propaganda.

    I have to confess to a measure of ‘unhappiness’ with the Scottish Government/SNP over Indy14, over their gullibility in accepting the Unionist’s almost total control of broadcast media. Should this gullibility by the SNP reappear in the preparations for IndyRef2, I for one will be calling for resignations at the very top.
    Even when we do get cast iron opportunities on TV to make important clarifications of BT lies, we regularly pass them up. It is soul destroying.

    Right now, our best hope seems to be that Brexit will be seen to cause so much damage to the UK, that even the most naive of No voters will see the disastrous consequences of voting No again. Except they won’t see it on TV or in the Unionist Press in Scotland, who will cover it all up.

    Perhaps rising prices for imported groceries and holidays overseas, due to the collapsing pound, will get the message across.

    And if we do get Independence this time round, all we’ll have to deal with, forever after, is the jibe that we couldn’t vote our way to Independence by ourselves – we had to get the English to do it for us – through Brexit.

  140. call me dave says:

    Absent friends!

    Scotland’s only Labour MP hasn’t talked to Jeremy Corbyn in four months

  141. call me dave says:

    Shroud waving has started…SNP bad.

    Warning that firms may quit Scotland over tax hikes

  142. Cherry says:

    @ Manandboy

    It would appear that you have the SNP damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Maybe they were as you say gullible about the media, what tho, should/could they have done about it? Even now the media ignore or worse spin every story into SNP bad. I don’t blame the SNP. I blame the Westminster Parliament which has tied Scotland down since 1707, every generation since then has tried to get free from its grip.

    They shipped us out to the other side of the world, they burned us out of homes, they tried to kill our spirit…they took our sons to wars…they have only ever made us stronger. It’s that feeling in each of us that they just can’t understand, a sense of belonging…Scotland is part of us all and we make Scotland…they can never take that from us.

    I trust Nicola to do what is right for Scotland, she deserves that we stand with her no matter what. Have a little faith, we are nearly there.

  143. yesindyref2 says:

    @call me dave
    I’d welcome Michael Moore as well, a really decent guy, and politician. Let down by the LibDems voting for tuition fees.

    Anyway, he joined PwC in January this year, I was pleased for him, as a devolution specialist. Perhaps that’s why he was there at the conference – to sample the tone on Indy. Just googled a few words and found this from the day after the Brexit vote:

    The PwC chairman Ian Powell made a comment to the BBC supporting a UK during the ref, though PwC itself said it had no formal position. Powell stepped down this year after serving the maximum 2 terms of 4 years, and Kevin Ellis took his place.

    With JP Morgan I think it was indicating a possible move to iScotland after the EU Ref end June / July, and others, it’ll be interesting to see what stance PwC take this time.

  144. Perhaps he will step down to spend more time with his family.
    He looks completely done in.
    It is clear that he is not in the Loop.
    Why would he be? After all he’s only in charge of the colony.
    He looks about to crack IMHO.

  145. Sandy says:

    In a former life, I believe Fluffy Mundell was a solicitor. I assume he legislated in the buying & selling of houses & writing “solicitors’ letters” to put the fear of death in to some poor person who let his hedge grow a couple of inches too high, at Xplus £s or such like. Just couldn’t see him in a court of law. A bar-room lawyer would tear him to bits.
    And by all accounts, he is still getting money under false pretences.
    Basically, he is an unnecessary expense, worse than “a man short”, a waste of space, or anything else any of correspondents might call him on here, can come up with to describe this excuse.
    God, help us with our future if he continues to be within our minst.

  146. yesindyref2 says:

    @call me dave
    From that Scotsman article “Scots are already facing higher income rates tax rates”

    No. Same tax rates, exactly the same. It’s the threshold for the higher rate that’s not going up.

  147. Sandy says:

    Sorry, midst.

  148. Sandy says:

    Sorry, mids’t.

  149. Breeks says:

    @ Liz 11:52

    Give the media no quarter. Do not trust them.

    To get anywhere near balanced, the media already owes us two stolen referenda manipulated by their constructively malicious intervention.

    I agree with Manandboy. If this rancid media has allowed its integrity to be compromised by its slavering bias, then the damage is self inflicted. For the life of me I do not understand why the Pro independence is so ill prepared for dealing with the litany of disinformation and alert to manipulation of the political agenda.

    We live in a world where skilled politicians typically manipulate the media. Not in Scotland. Our MP’s with a few notable exceptions, enter a TV studio like lambs to the slaughter. To remain so gullible and ill prepared at this stage in the game is simply amateurish. The SNP should be running workshops and faux interviews to train their spokespeople how to recognise and deal with the slight of hand and forked tongue of the hostile media.

    Please, put to bed any idea that the media will be destroyed by its own bias. That is cloud cuckoo land thinking and might yet cost us a third referendum.

  150. Breeks says:

    Latter part not aimed at you Liz… Just general perspective.

  151. Breeks says:

    Latter part not aimed at you Liz… Just a general gripe.

  152. solarflare says:

    I do agree to some extent about being prepared to meet the media.

    The thing is it seems to me like it should be very easy to counter many arguments currently being thrown against the SNP/independence because of the complete knots most Westminster folks are tying themselves in these days.

    Like the proverbial “cat with a slice of buttered toast tied to its back” they hover in mid-air a foot of the kitchen floor in some state of quantum flux – as they make the very arguments they used for leaving the EU against Scottish independence (without even the temerity to look embarrassed at their completely opposite views).

    Doesn’t seem to me to be that difficult to pick them up on it and even some of the interviewers, normally hostile to independence, are picking up the ball and running with it to some extent.

  153. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 6.43
    No worries my friend didn’t read it that way at all.
    But it was decent of you to clarify.

  154. Ruby says:

    heedtracker & crazycat

    You’ve made me blush!

  155. Dickiet says:

    Did anyone note 3:03 minutes in where Fluffy confirms that the UK Govt would agree to a second referendum if the Scottish govt wants one or did I hear wrong?

  156. Liz g says:

    Solarflare @ 6.58
    Why do you tie buttered toast to your cat ?
    And how did you think of the name Proverbial?

    But seriously I agree with you and Breeks,it can be so frustrating.
    Half the time I have half a dozen answers in my head,and the politicians just seem to give out the most feeble one.
    They really should organise some sort of media training.
    When you watch actors interviewed in the early stages of their careers and then a while later the difference is impressive,and you can tell they have had a bit of coaching.
    Hell you can even say the same about Andy Murray.

  157. Dorothy Devine says:

    Whoever put up the article in the appalling Scotsman just put me off my breakfast.

    Read the article and then the insane comments – and they are INSANE.

    I am beginning to wonder if all rational folk have abandoned the paper and it is only left with the loopy loos – or , as happened in the past , staff trying to incite comment.

    When is this ‘regional’ paper due to release its circulation figures? Just so I can have a wee snigger.

  158. Liz g says:

    Dickiet @ 7.17
    Had another listen,I think he said very quickly “of course there could be another referendum but”,and then waffles on about how it’s a terrible idear.
    That’s been the party line for a wee while now.
    But always both the presenter and their guests stating as hard fact that Westminster’s permission is required,which as you will probably know is not true.

  159. Davy says:

    I watched both muddley and murray make a complete hash of their interviews, I couldn’t stop laughing at muddley’s interview, he was shitting himself and murray was just embarrassing.

    I was wondering why Marr was quoting some Spanish guy to the First Minster on his show, Nicola was looking bemused that Marr thought this was relevant, like we haven’t heard this shite before.

    If this is what “better together 2” has to offer, bring it on.

  160. Macart says:

    @Dorothy Devine

    ‘I am beginning to wonder if all rational folk have abandoned the paper’


    The folk who read, absorb and then comment upon much of the Scotsman’s political output rank alongside those you’d find ATL last thread.

    I used to comment there a few years back and decade or so ago I even bought the paper. They’ve hit more than a few ethical and moral lows over the past year or three in journalism. Their treatment of visitors and moderation policy being right down there on that list.

    However, it was their willingness to demonise and other half the population which really is the killer blow for me. Hold a differing opinion THAT’S FINE, but misrepresent and willingly lie about a sizeable number your own population? Inflict misery to promote a political agenda and inflict wilful and harmful division in your own society?

    The media have a lot to answer for God knows, but over the past few years especially in Scotland, their actions and behaviour toward their own readerships has been nothing short of a disgrace. I’d say the Scotsman is near the top of the worst offenders, but by their lights they’d see that as a compliment.

  161. David Crines says:

    Andrew Neil let David Mundell off with the assertion that an independent Scotland within the the EU would risk losing it’s trading relationship with rUK. This oft repeated bland assertion has to be challenged every time it is made.
    Scotland within the EU will have exactly the same trading relationship with rUK as all other EU states. True that deal has not yet been hammered out yet but it will be hammered out as this is the single most important aspect of the forthcoming Brexit negotiations and it is in both sides interest that a deal is reached. While the UK does have some cards to play, the EU will demonstrate that size matters and the deal will ultimately suit the EU better than the UK.
    So an independent Scotland will be able to trade with the UK on favourable terms. Additionally, financial services will look to relocate from London as the financial passport to freely trade within the EU is likely to be lost in the Brexit negotiations. Scotland and Ireland could well be massive beneficiaries of this relocation process.
    The post Brexit landscape will be almost unrecognisable and Scotland should be prepared for the massive opportunities this will offer.

  162. Glamaig says:

    Mundell was struggling (and lying) in that interview with Neill but that doesnt stop BBC Scotland salvaging a soundbite from the wreckage and broadcasting it as part of their 8am news headlines “I myself voted Remain but I did not do so in the expectation that if I did not get my way, Scotland would be torn out of the UK”

    They repeated this soundbite later in an extended discussion between pundits (dont know who they were, but no SNP of course).

    Also the assertion was made that Rajoy said he would block Scotlands accession to the EU also that he didnt want Scotland to ‘separate from’ the UK. That one again. When did he say that exactly?

    Alot more material there too, a pure propaganda piece.

  163. Clydebuilt says:

    Rev. Stu.

    Been giving the caption some thought…..think you’ve missed a sitter……surely should’ve been

    “Mundell given a grilling by Brillo (pad)”

  164. Glamaig says:

    The BBC will claim their output is balanced overall, but will output the fair items on programs hardly anyone watches, and go all out anti independence on stuff like 8am primetime radio with tens of thousands of casual listeners.

    If I complain about that 8am GMS headline (which I will) the answer will be ‘ah but we broadcast the balance to that in some other bulletin with much lower listening figures’.

  165. Grouse Beater says:

    Breeks: “We live in a world where skilled politicians typically manipulate the media.”

    I think you’ll find thy don’t need manipulated. Already right-wing in outlook, they do what they do willingly. Feeding half-truths to the media is the job of a political party’s spin doctors.

    “SNP should be running workshops and faux interviews to train their spokespeople how to recognise and deal with the slight of hand and forked tongue of hostile media.”

    The best appear to have that ability in good measure. But if you feel there’s a gap why not offer your services as tutor? PS: ‘sleight of hand’.

    Peace and goodwill.

  166. Grouse Beater says:

    Macart: “The media have a lot to answer for God knows, but over the past few years especially in Scotland, their actions and behaviour toward their own readerships has been nothing short of a disgrace.”

    Seconded. We have a fractured democracy in Scotland when our newspapers are reluctant to defend our civil rights.

  167. Tam Jardine says:


    Furthernore- you’re response, even in some alternate universe where they do admit an error (as I found myself in recently) you end up sitting with an email back from the BBC and a mealy mouthed apology for suggesting on the evening news headline that the Scottish Government is in charge of all money attributed as Scottish Expenditure and raises all the money attributed to Scottish revenue.

    It’s great but 6 weeks on this headline read out by Jackie Bird is a distant memory for a handful of folk at best.

    Do me a favour though- use the term “state broadcaster” as that seems to really bug them

  168. Arabs for Independence says:

    Slightly O/T

    It appears our state broadcaster has doctored a photo of John Swinney to make him look like hitler – truly disgraceful

  169. Arabs for Independence says:

    Re my post at 09:18

    Mr Swinney has confirmed that his wedding ring is worn on his left hand – which can only mean that the photo of him has been deliberately reversed

  170. Nana says:


    David Mundell is a liar. An EU referendum was *not* inevitable after the indyref. Labour only backed it in May 2015. Video here

    Scotland edges close to second independence vote post-Brexit

  171. Nana says:

    Martin McGuinness calls for special EU status for Northern Ireland

    The Brexiteers’ Marmite conspiracy theories exposed their utter ignorance of how markets really work

    Island mentality: UK is flirting with protectionist walls, India can counter by pushing reforms

  172. Nana says:


    Iraq Launches Military Offensive To Retake Mosul From ISIS; Up To 1 Million Refugees Expected

  173. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    Scotland edges close to second independence vote post-Brexit

    Particularly interesting is Tusk …

    “Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council, said Britain could not have a partial exit from the EU.
    “In my opinion, the only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit.” ”

    Cancel Brexit or get a crap deal, I paraphrase.

  174. Famous15 says:

    The BBC is doing a first class job as state broadcaster and North Korea is probably envious.

  175. Glamaig says:

    Even if the SNP dont want to directly challenge the BBC (and I can see how that might be counter productive) they could be compiling a massive fk off professional standard dossier of this stuff.

    Anybody know what has happened to Prof John Robertson? has he retired?

  176. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Great, not, that they set a 40% limit (40% of the total electorate) on the 1979 Scottish election for Yes to win and yet Cameron got in with 36% of votes from 66% of the electorate. In other words he won with around 20 odd percent of total UK votes (and very few from us of course). The Brexiters won with 30 odd percent votes of the total electorate and of course Theresa May is ruling the roost with no one voting for her at all. That’s what you call democracy in the UK.”

    That would make a great billboard once streamlined a wee bit for impact, Petra. It highlights our democratic deficit brilliantly.

    Good to see you back, Ruby. I thought one of Buffalo Girl’s Burly Men had locked you in a room somewhere.

    Why was Fluffy looking so nervous? I think he was simply intimidated by Neil. And that’s with softball questions and a lot of unchallenged assertions.It’s obvious even he doesn’t believe his own script.

    He’s a wee weed, just.

  177. Clootie says:

    …why are the GER figures going unchallenged?

    Every interview has someone announcing the 15billion pound black hole. I have spoken to several NO voters who are starting to listen. They want to be convinced but I keep hearing “…even the Scottish government accepts those figure – it is their report”

    If we continue to accept a report that was engineered to mislead.
    If we continue to allow unionists to pick one year of data instead of the last 30.
    If we ignore the failure to set up an Oil fund.
    If we continue to permit the discussion to ignore the UK deficit

    Then…..We are going to lose those voters to NO by default

    Why are we playing to their rules? Why do we accept interviews with questions that are in fact long negative statements presented as facts. Why continue on forums of 5 to 1 against.. Why pretend the chair is neutral when he engineers the format against them.

    If our MPs and MSPs are not going to fight these issues then stop doing the interviews!
    Use the Internet / public meetings IN Scotland.
    The current tactic is just giving the unionist media the opportunity to scream their propaganda over and over.

    We don’t need to win over the “UK” voters…just the Scottish ones.

    Let the media defend their position when accused of bias when Scottish politicians refuse to attend.

  178. Alan Crerar says:

    You are excused, Rev, not commenting on the first item on the Andrew Marr show (I was only just out of bed myself) where the unimportant Yoon journalist brought in to review the papers stated, like Mundell completely unchallenged, that “there is less support in Scotland now for independence than there was in 2014.”
    Its not the lying that gets me, I expect nothing less, its that they remain unchallenged by the journalist present. But well done on this one. In this case we all knew Mundell was just plain lying (his lips were moving) but, as ever, having all the details and quotes to hand should we require them in the pub or workplace for the elucidation of the scepical is invaluable. I don’t know how you do it.

  179. Capella says:

    @ Clootie – maybe they carry on doing the interviews because they score over 50% in the polls and rising? A 30 point lead over their nearest rivals. The most popular political party in Europe.

    Being very successful politicians, it’s possible that they’ve decided it isn’t worth getting into silly fights with a biased media which will never allow them the space to explain complicated matters such as GERS figures. Imagine the screaming headlines:




    Maybe researching and broadcasting the facts is our job.

  180. Dorothy Devine says:

    Macart ,indeed they are utterly disreputable – you are usually the one who cheers me up with the current circulation figures , I am looking forward to them with relish!

  181. Scott Borthwick says:

    Dorothy Devine

    ‘I am beginning to wonder if all rational folk have abandoned the paper’

    They have indeed. I comment there from time to time, and am always struck how ludicrous and screechy the responses are.

    The paper itself is on life support, with a skeleton staff squeezed into a wee office on Orchard Brae. Their flagship offices at Holyrood are now occupied by Rockstar North, of Grand Theft Auto fame.

  182. heedtracker says:

    Ruby says:
    17 October, 2016 at 7:03 am
    heedtracker & crazycat

    You’ve made me blush!

    Keep it come Ruby. We all know we have to wade through a crazy morass of Britnat red and blue tory media bullshit, every minute of every day. So everyone that disagrees with them makes a difference

  183. Chic McGregor says:

    Without Michael Moore, we wouldn’t have got the Edinburgh Agreement.

    Closet indy? His career path subsequent to that might suggest others thought so.

  184. Free Scotland says:

    Eyes popping out of his head; neck moving constantly in-and-out and sideways like a fragile robot subjected to a massive electrical surge; wringing his hands and twiddling his thumbs; Fluffy Mundell has all the hallmarks of a deceiver, and the way he pronounces “Scotland” reminds me of Flipper, who always calls it SCAW-tland.

    I hope the people of Annan are taking notes.

  185. mealer says:

    I’m all for holding fibbers to account.Thats what this site is all about.Mr Mundell is a poor speaker at the best of times and struggles to articulate what he thinks.However,on this occasion he doesn’t know what to think.He hasn’t been told what to think because his managers have no idea what’s going on.In fact,I’ll contradict myself by saying Mr Mundell did very well in articulating the shambles that is Tory government policy.

  186. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 16 October, 2016 at 5:32 pm:

    ” … José Manuel Barroso, the President of the European Commission”

    The President of the EU Commission Is NOT NOW José Manuel Barroso.

    The EU Commission are the EU’s Civil Servants and thus“Jean-Claude Juncker”, (The current EU President), along with the entire EU Commission, is responsible to the EU Parliament which can censure the President.

    Jean-Claude Juncker, took office on 1 November 2014. He is a member of the European People’s Party (EPP) and is the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg.

    As Commissioners, (that term means they are paid employees), they have no decision making powers and, in any case, every word published by the BBC and MSM that Barosso was claimed to have utter was always misquoted.

    This is because Barosso himself invariably preceded his utterances with, ” … and I’m not specifically speaking of Scotland here.” or some other similar phrase.

    Like most other things, regarding Scottish politics, what the BBC & MSM publish about Scotland is lying clap-trap and what Barosso in particular said should be disregarded by everyone because they were no more than his own personal opinions and not the opinions of either the EU or the EC.

  187. Andrew McLean says:

    call me dave says:8:48
    Colin Fox, I wondered when he would resurface, interesting back story that chap! funny he should be running to the press to say SNP Bad, but maybe not, bit of a history of running to the papers, and to hell with the ideals he purports to support. Friend of Rupert, yes that a given but what other league of gentlemen is he in cohorts with.
    I have said this before, and no doubt I will say this again, beware the lunatic fringe, especially those who have engendered themselves into positions of responsibility or influence, ” What Big Eyes You Have Mr Fox” “All The Better to Watch You With”.

    Grouse Beater says: 9:05
    ” We have a fractured democracy in Scotland when our newspapers are reluctant to defend our civil rights”
    The press on these islands have always played fast and loose, Journalistic integrity has been a stranger to the “Red Tops” what we see now is a dismantling of standards across the print and broadcasting media, this has been magnified by State involvement, occasionally glimpsed by actual investigative journalists like wiki leaks. (David Cameron leaning on Sony).

    One safeguard should be the integrity of the journalists themselves, and their code of conduct. If we look at the he NUJ code of conduct 2011 revision it contains the following.
    At all times upholds and defends the principle of media freedom, the right of freedom of expression and the right of the public to be informed. Strives to ensure that information disseminated is honestly conveyed, accurate and fair. Does her/his utmost to correct harmful inaccuracies. Differentiates between fact and opinion.

    As virtuous as these principals are, let’s look at the American code, where they cover similar areas. (note the American code is far more complex)

    Take responsibility for the accuracy of their work. Verify information before releasing it.
    Use original sources whenever possible.
    Remember that neither speed nor format excuses inaccuracy.
    Provide context. Take special care not to misrepresent or oversimplify in promoting, previewing or summarising a story.
    Gather, update and correct information throughout the life of a news story
    Be vigilant and courageous about holding those with power accountable. Give voice to the voiceless.
    Never deliberately distort facts or context, including visual information.

    Now in America there is a position on the staff of both broadcast and print media called the “fact checker” wouldn’t that be a novel idea, even “Brides” magazine checks stories for accuracy! that may explain why generally speaking American journalism (FOX NEWS EXCEPTED) is now far superior to the outpourings of a “state broadcaster” who’s stated aim is the promotion of the State, through propaganda,and bloody Flag waving at every opportunity! In my opinion the BBC seriously damaged during the Scottish referendum campaign, has just continued unabated in its “war Footing”. Shame, they do have good science programs.

  188. Ken500 says:

    Ihiw can anyone in their right mind believe Scotland has a £15Billion Deficit. The figures are their in but if the Scottish economy was managed differently there would be no deficit. The figures are under Westminster Gov management of Scottidh affairs,

    Scotland pays off loans for the rest of the UK, nearly £4Billion, can’t put a tax on ‘loss leading’drink nearly £1Billion, pays for Trident nearly £1Billion, tax evasion nearly £3Billion (whisky companies tax evade – they pay no tax in Scotland), Scotland has lost at least £4Billion a year in Oil tax revenues. The total is £13Billion, The so called deficit is £15Billion.

    Scotland lose CAP payments. Westminster took them. There would be higher fish quotas if the fisherman had used larger nets. They are now being used after SNP representation. I.e, Scottish Gov involvement in the negotiations. Thousands of Oil jobs were lost because of high Oil sector taxation when the price had fallen. (Osbourne) Scotland has lost EU renewable Grants because if Westminster indecision, Westminster refused permission and reneged on CCS projects. At Longannet and Peterhead. Westminster wasted a £300Billion Oil Fund. Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy. The rest of the UK borrows approx 25% NI gets another 50%. Norwegian funding levels. More taxes are collected in Scotland. £54Billion. Pro rata £42Billion is collected in the rest of the UK. That is not equal. The rest of the UK should pay increased taxes (parity) or make their own debt repayments.

    Scotland has always been in surplus and would be in surplus now if not for Westminster policies. The Westminster Unionists have always damaged the Scottish economy. Thatcher secretly and illegally took the Oil revenues and built up London S/E. Tilbury Dock and Canary Wharf. Sold off utilities now owned by foreign State companies. Deregulated banking. Devastated manufacturing facilities. Coal,steel, smelter, vehicle manufacturing. Thatcher left over 3million unemployed and interest rates at 15%.

    Labour illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion increased the debt to £1.7Trillion.

    The Tories are back to ruin the world economy. So Tory multimillionaire tax evaders and their associates can plunder public funds and tax evade. Hinkley Point, HS2 and Trident are a total waste of money but Tories and their associates will plunder public funds in consultancies, fees, and banking charges etc. Foreign trade deals which will cost £Billions. The Tories will not fund the NHS or education properly.

    Brexit has already wiped £Billions from the UK economy and will lose more. People’s standard of
    living will lower and prices will rise. There could be higher unemployment. It is just despicable what the Tories are doing. The UK Is one of the most unequal, unfair places in the world, UK/US and France have caused the migrant crisis bombing the Middle East off years. Now they want to walk away without finding a solution. If every country in the EU took a quota of refugees that would help solve the proplem. 2 million into 500Million would be negligible. Hardly noticed.

    That’s what you get for showing a guerilla. Voted off of ‘Strictly Come Dancing’. People who can’t dance shouldn’t read the ‘News’ but should pay their taxes. Hypocrite Prima Donnas.

  189. Ian Brotherhood says:

    BTUKOKers are cursed when it comes to facial hair.

    Mundell’s velcro-beard, Michael White and Torrance frightening people with unusual growths, Ian Davidson…

    And now someone at PQ has been very VERY naughty by giving John Swinney a tash as part of a doctored image which makes him look like Hitler. Looks like a crude photoshop with Swinney’s face and a very false-looking arm.

    We need the bald truth about this. Peter Bell and others have already been discussing it on Twitter. I suggest that we now start using #TashGate to get this latest dod of fantashtic BBC sleakitness the attention it deserves.

    (PS Anyone have a decent version of the image so that those who hasn’t seen it can give first impressions?)

  190. Ken500 says:

    The figures are there in the GERS but if Scotland’s economy was managed differently, as the majority in Scotland want, the figures would change. If the UK economy had been managed differently the UK would not be in so much debt caused by total mismanagement. Illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud.

  191. Nana says:


    From the independent

    I used to be against Scottish independence – but after Brexit, I think it’s the only hope for young people like me in the UK

  192. Hamish100 says:

    Arabs for Independence says:
    17 October, 2016 at 9:18 am
    Slightly O/T

    It appears our state broadcaster has doctored a photo of John Swinney to make him look like hitler – truly disgraceful

    Arabs for Independence says:
    17 October, 2016 at 9:21 am
    Re my post at 09:18

    Mr Swinney has confirmed that his wedding ring is worn on his left hand – which can only mean that the photo of him has been deliberately reversed

    How dare you say someone in Pacific Quay works actively against Scottish independence. It is obvious that John Swinney removed his wedding ring and put it on his right hand!! —or changed arms around? –would that make the thumb’s different?

    Next news media discussion at Holyrood can MSP’s invite the Production team of Reporting Scotland, Call Kaye ETC.for a wee chat. Bring them out of the shadow into the light of democratic process

  193. Glesca Keelie says:

    Sorry O/T but good news.

    Just been to pick up my wife from Aldi, Anniesland, Glasgow.

    Stopped to look at paper rack to see the “Blow to SNP, or, Sturgeon blasted” laughlines. What do I find but a solitary National. Get it in the trolley. So new in it’s not on the database. Maybe they will have 2 tomorrow.

    Sent them an email to thank them. Try your local branches, people. I had a chat with the manager of this store a few months ago about it.

  194. Glesca Keelie says:

    Did I not see somewhere Wales’es , is that OK, grammar police, deficit of £16 billion.

    Think I did.

  195. Hamish100 says:

    Morrisons yesterday.

    Sunday Heralds hidden behind Saturdays copies of the Evening times. Put them in front then watched an elderly gent put a Southern newspaper in front of them. I said to the guy that if he didn’t want to buy another paper (had the Sunday Times and Sunday Mirror in his trolley) he shouldn’t hide the Herald. He went away. I did my shop and returned to find the Sunday Heralds hidden again.
    I am getting more annoyed by the unionist’s but I suppose it shows how worried they are.

  196. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Nana –

    Thanks. That’s the very one we were discussing last night.

    At first I thought it was a straight mirror-image. As Peter Bell pointed out, it’s been treated to look like an old newspaper, and it’s monochrome. The wedding-ring being on the ‘wrong’ hand would prove that it’s been reversed.

    If there is an ‘original’ image then it should be easy enough to source it, compare/contrast etc. But if it’s been photoshopped then there won’t be one ‘original’. Look at his arm. It looks fake, and oversized for the body. Look at the line where his ‘shoulder’ meets the collar of his jacket. It’s wrong.

    And that’s before we even start on shadow analysis to work out where the ‘tash’ came from.

    It stinks.

    I hope Rev has a close look at this, and any ‘experts’ on this type of thing cast an eye over it too – BBC PQ may well have overplayed its hand with this sloppy rubbish and they must be held to account for it asap.

  197. Andrew McLean says:

    Hamish100 says:
    17 October, 2016 at 10:54 am
    Arabs for Independence says:
    17 October, 2016 at 9:18 am
    Slightly O/T

    It appears our state broadcaster has doctored a photo of John Swinney to make him look like hitler – truly disgraceful

    I love the Iron Cross detail they did on the tie? Sepia image and the change of angle, 10 out of 10, could have been worse, it could have been a tracksuit, blonde wig and medallion, after all the BBC loves a saville, why else cover his actions up for decades? Just so they could continue to re run top of the pops?

  198. Andrew McLean says:

    Hamish100 says:
    11:05 am
    Morrisons yesterday.

    Name the branch please. and approximate time. Thanks

  199. scottieDog says:

    The deficit will certainly be used as route 1 reason to vote NO.
    Yet, it is simple to explain.
    Firstly what actually IS the deficit?

    Well it’s the gap between total taxes and expenditure required.

    So where’s the deficit the lowest?

    Probably London and the SE.

    Now London and the SE is the region associated with banking.
    This is the sector bailed out massively by the public purse which enabled them to keep over inflated salaries and bonuses hence higher level of tax revenue.

    Scotland has limited borrowing powers. Had it all the econimic levers we could easily invest in our export industry, create jobs and hence raise tax revenues.

    It really is simple.

  200. Nana says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    I spotted it yesterday and yes it does stink. Someone tweeted the original photos where the bbc probably got it and without doubt it has been reversed and changed.

    Do they not have form in this area, I seem to recall a picture of Alex Salmond in a similar pose.

  201. Hamish100 says:

    John Swinney- no wedding ring on right hand. Background screen looks different as well.

  202. But where’s Kezia? Has anybody heard from her? What’s going on there?

    I expect developments there.

  203. Why don’t our S.N.P. Mps just keep their answers sort and simple imean when told how much Scotland is in debt and all the figures to prove it just say well that is the result of Westminster running our country and it is why we want independence but thanks for helping us with your figures

  204. Nana says:


    This is good

    Keynote address by and Q&A with Donald TUSK, President of the European Council

    In case the above link does not work you can see it here

    Hear Donald Tusk confirm that Article 50 notification can be revoked (about 25 minutes

  205. Capella at 10am

    Probably right and probably wise. Sometimes contesting bollocks merely allows the repetition of it and if you don not have control of the media in distribution that is dangerous.

  206. Liz g says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 11.29
    Sadly I don’t think at her age she will be developed any farther.
    Oh dear wee shame that,never mind.

  207. One_Scot says:

    ‘John Swinney- no wedding ring on right hand. Background screen looks different as well.’

    Having seen the BBC doctored image, it would have been less hassle for the BBC if they had just used an actual photo of Hitler and put Johns name on it. Lol.

    But given that the BBC is now legally required by law to uphold the union, they know they can be as biased and corrupt as they want against the SNP.

  208. scottieDog says:

    Also regarding the deficit, £ have to be spent into circulation BEFORE it can be taxed. Tax take will be higher where £ are spent..

  209. Liz g says:

    Nana @ 11.47
    Well well,indeed Nana.
    Look’s like wee ginger dug is spot on.
    Spain’s priority is Gibraltar, and if there is any veto,ing to be done that’s where it will happen.
    Not with Scotland the owner of all those fishing rights!!

  210. Grouse Beater says:

    A law of composition followed assiduously is photographs always look better when the human subject is looking in, rather than out. It strengthens the image, stopping the reader following the portrait’s gaze off and beyond the page.

    ‘Mirror switching’ is common practice.

    But I have no doubt in my mind that the ‘photay’ in question was chosen to give it a subliminal message.

    Why make it monochrome, as if an archaic archival shot?

  211. galamcennalath says:

    The Swinney photo, anyone got a link to the original?

  212. Grouse Beater says:

    Liz: “Spain’s priority is Gibraltar, and if there is any vetoing to be done that’s where it will happen.”

    Will be there again this week on conference. Will ask Gibraltarians what they feel about Brit betrayal – 95% of electorate voted, 88% voted Remain. Will report in my next site essay.

  213. heedtracker says:

    So as Pacific Quay gimps turn John Swinney into Adolf Hitler, probably trying to outdo BBC Breakfast show’s Nic Sturgeon’s an escaped Gorilla last week, Oxford Professor Ngaire Woods on a Brexit UK’s position in Trade deal negotiations,

  214. Liz g says:

    Grouse Beater @ 12.05
    Will look forward to it.
    I always enjoy your articles
    Especially the ones on the Constution,ma wee personal hobbi horse.

  215. scotspine says:

    BBC Scotland now referring to EU as a “Bloc”. Trying to insinuate its like a totalitarian state to tarnish remain.

  216. galamcennalath says:

    “For Jews in post-Brexit Britain, German citizenship no longer verboten

    Descendants of those who fled Hitler rethinking long-held beliefs about a country that once sought to destroy their families”

    Anyone who is entitled to an EU passport, should grab it!

  217. Nana says:

    Good grief

    RT statement
    “Our accounts in UK have been closed. All Accounts. ‘The decision is not subject to revision’…freedom of speech!”

    The UK has frozen all bank accounts owned by Russia’s state-run broadcaster, Russia Today (RT), its editor-in-chief has claimed.

    Margarita Simonyan tweeted: “They’ve closed our accounts in Britain. All our accounts. ‘The decision is not subject to review.’ Praise be to freedom of speech!”

  218. Dorothy Devine says:

    Scott Borthwick , delighted to hear they are working out of a cupboard!

    OT just watched Angela Eagle on Daily Politics boy! has someone been working on a makeover!!

  219. Capella says:

    @ Nana – I noticed last night that Julian Assange’s internet has been suspended too. Scary stuff.

  220. Capella says:

    Could RBS be retaliating for the Kaiser Report Episode 980:

    “Max and Stacy are joined by Joel Benjamin, local authority debt audit campaigner with Debt Resistance UK, and Nigel Henderson, who lost his hotel business to RBS’s restructuring division, to talk of the ‘stunned commoners’ in awe (at the brazenness) of the Royal… Bank of Scotland. Nigel recounts his own encounter with RBS’s smash and grab unit which saw him lose his hotel in Scotland. They discuss the tens of billions in fines the bank, taxpayer-owned RBS, faces from US authorities for the bank’s role in the mortgage backed securities fraud and whether or not there will be anything left for compensation of the thousands of small and medium sized enterprises destroyed in the UK.”

  221. Grouse Beater says:

    Liz: Will look forward to it.”

    You’re welcome. 🙂

  222. Scott says:

    MoD to buy £3bn armored vehicle fleet from Germany – report
    French steel for our subs.

    What happened to my first comment on these stories.

  223. Dorothy Devine says:

    Scott Borthwick , delighted to hear they are working out of a cupboard!

    OT just watched Angela Eagle on Daily Politics boy! has someone been working on a makeover!!

    I keep getting that duplicate comment statement .

  224. Luigi says:

    It’s getting quite hard to find a copy of the National these days. It seems to have disappeared from a few of its usual outlets. Either it’s distribution is crap, and it is not keeping up with demand, or something fishy is going on. 🙁

  225. heedtracker says:

    Dr NO! takes time out from his busy day of tweeting Nic Sturgeon and Mhairi Black bad. He’s not a Doctor and he thinks Scots are idiots,

    “I was one of the many Scots who in the aftermath of the EU referendum moved from being sceptical of the benefits of independence to being willing to consider it. I believed and trusted Nicola Sturgeon when she said she would only act in Scotland’s interests,”

    And if you swallow that latest load of Dr NO! con, can I interest you in my very lucrative Bernie Madoff portfolio? Bless him for trying to do a BBC vote NO Scotland style shyste though.

  226. Dorothy Devine says:


  227. Funny Old World says:

    Capella says:12:35 pm
    Could RBS be retaliating for the Kaiser Report Episode 980

    RBS senior management are in the process of arranging the next tranche of redundancies for 2017, this time it is said to be “substantial” “Brutal” and “widespread”,
    This along with HMRC who have their own secret downsizing department burning the midnight oil, should see major redundancies on a scale not seen in both organisations.
    The RBS are outsourcing to India, contact negotiations are well underway, Funny Old World their recent add campaign portrays the “Scottish” card rather too well don’t you think?

  228. Andrew McLean says:

    Taken from off topic

    Scotland’s External Affairs Minister Fiona Hyslop said: “The reaction to Scotland now is not the same as the reaction in 2014.

    “One very senior European politician has said to us: ‘We didn’t understand why you wanted to be independent in 2014, but we understand now.’”

  229. Liz g says:

    Scott @ 12.40
    I think your comment is on the last thread.

  230. Chic McGregor says:

    The armaments build up, the illegal low flying exercises in Strathmore, the censorship and propaganda, Brexit and the regime change.

    Something’s definitely afoot.

    Is it Libya, Syria … … or us?

  231. Capella says:

    @ Luigi – I went for the online subscription of The National. It comes with a substantial discount and a very nice bottle of Glenfarcas malt whisky. No more worries about it not being on the shelves.

    I know it is a case enemy action in keeping it from the public where I live. W.H.Smith are thought to have limited distribution also.

    We all have our price!

  232. t42 says:

    Alan Crerar says:
    “the Andrew Marr show: “there is less support in Scotland now for independence than there was in 2014.””

    That calls for a Comical Ali meme!

  233. gus1940 says:

    I am currently watching the BBC 1pm news.

    They are showing the assault on Mosul and there are pictures of artillery bombardment of the city.

    It is also reported that the city is being subjected to aerial bombing but’The bombs are only aimed at the Isis fighters’. Aye Right!!!

    I suppose that these will be the smart shells and bombs which can discriminate between innocent civilians and these nasty Isis fellows as opposed to the dastardly non discriminating ones landing on Aleppo.

    The hypocrisy is disgusting.

  234. Sunniva says:

    Rumoured that Hammond is about to resign as Chancellor and Carney as chief of Bank of England, too soft on Brexit. Meanwhile a Tory councillor wants to make it treason to criticise hard Brexit and be pro EU.

  235. Sinky says:

    heedtracker says: at 12.47

    We need to challenge the £15 billion deficit claim at every single opportunity.. even so called financial commentators have fallen for the GERS charade.

  236. galamcennalath says:

    Sunniva says:

    Tory councillor wants to make it treason to criticise hard Brexit and be pro EU.

    Can you imagine what he thinks of Scotland’s quest for self determination!?

    There always were ultra right nutters on the fringes of the Tory party. The difference suddenly, is they seem to have taken control!

  237. Robert Louis says:

    This business of the bank accounts of the television station, Russia Today being closed in the UK, is deeply worrying. Unbelievably, the Guarniad describes RT as “Moscow’s main instrument of propaganda in English-speaking world“.

    Just like, and no different from the Government funded, run and controlled, BBC, ‘Westminster’s main instrument of propaganda in English-speaking world’.

    RT is clearly very biased on certain stories, which relate to Russia and Russion politics, but by the same token, the BBC does EXACTLY the same for Westminster. They are just two versions of the same thing.

    These are seriously troubling time in the UK. creep, creep, creep comes totalitarianism, sneaking up, step by step. What next? proscribe the SNP? Or what about internment for those who don’t bow down to London colonial rule of Scotland?

    It is a slippery slope Theresa May is on.

  238. One_Scot says:

    I don’t know what it is, but with every passing day, it feels like we’re another day closer to IndyRef2.

  239. Breastplate says:

    @Chic, it won’t be us, they would need to shut down our parliament and that boat has sailed.
    Of course,that is only my opinion.

  240. Maria F says:

    Has Ruth DAvidson been properly held to account after the EU referendum and grilled in any TV interview for her misleading remarks during indiref1 about remaining in the UK and remaining in the EU?

    I have been searching but I haven’t found anything. There is plenty about her totally opposing to indiref2 or about her defending remaining in the EU but I couldn’t find any grilling interview like the one Mundell has been subjected to.

    The reason why I ask this is because I think using Mundell as a punchbag in the MSM may well be the establishment’s tactic to deflect attention from Ruth because she will be the one leading the NO campaign in indiref2.

    I mean, who else is going to be? I think this time round Labour doesn’t longer have enough clout in Scotland to make any difference and between Mundell and Ruth the obvious choice is Ruth.

    Note that in every interview this man’s agenda is kept very simple indeed: it only has two points, one desperately trying to stall indiref2 (by lots of SNP baad crap and giving the impression that Westminster may block the referendum) and the other frantically rubbishing the claims that the only way to remain in the EU would be to remain in the UK made during indiref1 and that would be so damaging for Ruth’s public profile as campaign leader.

    The man is a nervous wreck, really annoying to watch and he will not withstand scrutiny in any serious open debate. In the same way we all can see this, I am sure the Tory party can too. That is why, in my opinion, they are quite happy to throw him under the train because his only mission here is to stall the referendum and to make Ruth look good by comparison.

    I guess that the grandees in Tory HQ thought that Mundell being a Westminster MP would be more credible than Ruth for spinning the deception that Westminster can block the referendum and give them enough time perhaps to drag Scotland out of the EU and use its assets as barganing chips in the negotiations with the EU.

    As for ‘the the best way to remain in the EU is…’ remarks, I think, because that is a huge issue right now and would really damage Ruth’s credibility if she was to become the leader of the NO campaign, they are desperately trying to exhaust that issue now to make it irrelevant hence using him as a punchbag and asking him this constantly with the hope that enough people would swallow it before indiref2 officially kicks in. How canny!

    Mundell may just another useful idiot for the Tory party that is being sacrificed for Ruth’s profile, but in my opinion the guy is doing well though in repeating his message. We should not underestimate the effect that repeating the same mantra over and over again can have on soft NOs and soft Yes.

    I think the counteracting measure would be finding a way of continuously grilling Ruth by asking her about her indiref1 remarks directly.

  241. Dr Jim says:

    *Help* *Help* *Help*

    I need an expert person of military knowledge to tell me how much in cash value British armed services, equipment and installations are worth and the percentage that Scotland owns of that value
    I haven’t the slightest inkling about such stuff

    I think you’ll see where I’m going with this

  242. mealer says:

    I always got the impression that Michael Moore was very uncomfortable with the way the Better Together campaign operated.

  243. Les Wilson says:

    Hmm some deeply disturbing messages coming from Westminster, some of the actions they are taking and proposing, are really showing them up for what they are.
    If some, do not think that they would not rig Indy2, think again.
    I think under the present political climate,that’s a given.

    Something we need to think out the box on, including for the coming Council elections. The SNP have to take the bull by the horns, somehow we need to know that our “democracy” is secure.

    Westminster is falling apart and desperate people do desperate things.

  244. Bob Mack says:

    @Dr Jim,

    Business for Scotland did a very good article on this at the time of the referendum. It is still accurate.

  245. Dan Huil says:

    Mundell is a tractor. A useful idiot for Westminster britnats to snigger behind.

  246. Papadox says:

    The establishment keep threatening Scotland won’t be allowed to sell our goods and services into yoonland if we are independent.
    That could be quite correct if that’s how they want to play it. Then again Scottish oil could be put on the prohibited to sell to ENGERLAND list. Alls fare in love and war.

  247. Grouse Beater says:


    May’s regime behind closing of RT UK bank account. (Russian television)

    NatWest/RBS refuse to handle account as from December.

    That’s how much we can all look forward to learning all sides of the argument under imperial rule.

  248. Bob Mack says:

    @Dr Jim,

    I am not sure of the gross value of all military resources but it is many many billions.

    Gers makes it clear defence is financed on a per capita basis throughout the UK therefore the Scottish people are entitled to over 8% of all resources, including ships ,planes and any other defence resources.

    In fact apart from Trident Scotland has 7 helicopters. 1 Typhoon squadron, 1 military ( army ) base. No surface ships, no ariel surveillance.

    We are very short changed in conventional military assets,which they get round by talking about Faslane being based here.

  249. t42 says:

    Hillary Clinton has been busy today:
    RTs UK bank accounts closed
    Jullian Assange internet cut off

  250. heedtracker says:

    Sinky says:
    17 October, 2016 at 1:21 pm
    heedtracker says: at 12.47

    We need to challenge the £15 billion deficit claim at every single opportunity..

    Part of a range of issues to challenge. The biggest is maybe enough proudScot buts that do not want to be Scottish, just British, no matter what. After a lifetime of BBC led Scotland’s shite monstering and ergo, us Scots, brainwashing, its quite a challenge.

    The ongoing Scotland no longer exists BBC style of brainwashing’s been around for decades, with full on monstering Rab C Nesbit style of drama documentary. Its just far more noticeable now with Britnat crews like BBC r4 that never mention anything Scots at all, news, documentary, culture, at home or abroad, except ofcourse SNP. Everything the BBC r4 do now is entirely about England.

    As far as the English UK media is concerned, Scotland no longer exists at all and this is bound to have an impact in the psyche of Scots today. And lets not go down the road the full on UKOK thuggery from Express, Heil etc.

    The other side of the BBC monstering of Scots and Scotland is that Scots seem to be fully cognisant that we are being erased by the BBC, and told we’re shite by BBC Scotland and co. Its an extraordinary era of UK tory BBC state broadcaster propaganda we’re living through.

  251. DerekM says:

    @ Papadox

    Aye i hope they like eating cold beans by candle light as i am sure our EU friends will be happy taking our excess electricity and actually paying for it.

    Maybe we should turn off the hydro system for a few days so they can get an idea of what their future in brexit England not trading with Scotland will be like.

  252. Bob Mack says:

    They are now closing down ALL dissenting voices. Gobbles would have been proud to have them. Corrupt Britain, run by corrupt politicians.
    Today we are mounting attacks on Mosul and warnings of civilian casualties are dire because ISIS is in tunnels.

    Don’t expect any pictures of the aftermath though. That is only for Allepo.

    Sorry for the language but I am beginning to hate these bast Ards with a passion.

  253. Bob Mack says:

    I also notice that the plan in Mosul is to leave a corridor open to allow ISIS to eventually escape. This corridor is to the West of Iraq and leads to —– yep Syria.
    It seems they intend to magnify Assad opposition by making more ISIS on Syria for the Russians to fight.

  254. heedtracker says:

    Two UKOK tory toughguys in action.

    Blair McDougall Retweeted
    Andrew Neil ?@afneil 34m34 minutes ago
    Andrew Neil Retweeted TerryAnnG
    Scotland does not contribute to any of items you list, bar HS2, for which it’s up for a pittance. Do you spread such nonsense knowingly?

    Its a long list of the massive infrastructure spends ongoing or planned in the south east of England mostly. Scotland doesn’t contribute at all, just takes and takes.

    Without Scotland on its books and now Brexit, how will rUK be able to borrow maybe another half a trillion quid or so and for almost zero interest too, like now.

  255. Dr Jim says:

    Thanks for that @Bob I’m sure you’re following my thinking on this and if the figure as you say is somewhere around 8% then would that not mean we own 8% of the territories some of this equipment and manpower are based in eg; the Malvinas and or other such places

    If indeed all this is so the main problem the British guv have with Scotland might be that they couldn’t afford to pay us what we’re owed in compensation for the things we don’t want but they need

    So our invented deficit that they love to throw around really might amount to pocket money to what they’d have to pay us to go

    I’m thinking easy payment scheme, over say, 40 years of around 8 billion a year and that’s our oil money back

    Whilst I’m being flippant about it I’m not sure I’m a billion miles out here

  256. White Van Wummin says:

    RT UK bank account closed could be something to do with this Keiser Report program…

    Nigel Henderson, who lost his hotel business to RBS’s restructuring division, to talk of the ‘stunned commoners’ in awe (at the brazenness) of the Royal… Bank of Scotland. Nigel recounts his own encounter with RBS’s smash and grab unit which saw him lose his hotel in Scotland.

  257. snode1965 says:

    The much repeated £15 billion deficit line was really annoying me, so I thought I’d have a quick dig. I compared the three devolved parliaments with England using the most up to date data I could find.
    Scotland; population 5.4 M, deficit £15B. Wales; population 3 M, deficit £14.7B. Northern Ireland; population 1.8M, deficit £9.6B.
    Total Claimed Devolved deficit £39.3 Billion for 10.2 million people.
    Total UK deficit is £67.6 Billion for 64.1million people.
    So HM Treasury are claiming that the devolved 16% population are running 58% of UK deficit…would any sane person actually believe this bull??

  258. Bob Mack says:

    @Dr Jim,

    Yes it would. As I mentioned, GERS makes it very clear it is a per capita contribution.
    therefore we do own 8% of everything, and I mean everything. That includes move able and fixed assets.

  259. Glamaig says:

    Scott says:
    17 October, 2016 at 12:40 pm
    MoD to buy £3bn armored vehicle fleet from Germany

    How many tanks do they actually need to fill George Square? 🙂

  260. That’s the problem, the unionists can tell as many lies as they like, because there is no independent scrutiny of the UK treasury’s accounts.

    This means the Scottish Government isn’t in a position to rebut the claims made by UK treasury Ministers.

    Meanwhile an investigatory powers tribunal says agencies operated secret regimes to collect vast amounts of communications data for 10 years.

  261. ben madigan says:

    @grouse beater – hope the chief accountant at RT news asks other banks what their policy is towards the account. We’ll soon find out whether it’s a blanket ban or just one bank.

  262. Dr Jim says:

    A Yoon replying to the FM on her Twitter:

    “The pound is quintisentailly tempramental” (his spelling)

    I’m having the time of my life reading these lunatics defending the indefensible

  263. heedtracker says:

    So as BetterTogether tories like the Ligger and Macdougal put the UKOK boot in today on twitter. What a difference ref 1 made to the North Sea oil reserves.

    100 years of North Sea oil left Andrew! Tell them there’s none left. They wont buy it. They will, everyone believes everything we tell them.

    The Ligger.


    ‘North Sea oil will last for 100 years’
    The north sea will continue to provide oil for another 100 years, twice as long as previous estimates, according to industry analysts.

    By Richard Gray, Science Correspondent 12:24AM BST 15 Jun 2008

  264. mac says:

    Honestly this is a complete joke…he talks of UK negotiating BREXIT, how when no negotiations take place until article 50…?

    Devolution agreements changed…so basically further eroding what little control Scotland has over our own affairs.

    I honestly despair at the lack of understanding some scotsmen and women have towards independence as surely it is blatantly obvious to the Scottish electorate that the only action is to govern our own affairs in our own way and break free form the idiocy that is Westminster!

  265. Nana says:

    As its a quiet afternoon, here’s a few links


    TOP UBS ECONOMIST: ‘The government is clueless. I don’t think there is really a strategy.’

    “We recognise that because of the sovereignty of Parliament,
    referendums cannot be legally binding in the UK”

  266. Lochside says:

    BoB Mack..’Gobbles would have been proud of them’…probably, but why drag Mundell into this?

    Michael Moore’…good guy??…..are people serious?. Another self seeking tractor. Just because someone is half-hearted about selling out their nation, doesn’t make them any less of a betrayer.

    As for the BBC…Well for the past umpteen years we’ve been complaining officially and on here about them. GA Ponsonby wrote an exposure of their interference in the REF and Prof. Robertson produced an academic study proving their lying and nearly lost his job in the process. But yet…the SNP do not have a professional media corp to trounce these bastards…why?

    If they don’t, then forget about REF2 succeeding. Go back and read all the guff preREF about how the SNP were going to deliver a knock out blow to the media…..they didn’t and it looks like they won’t. Never mind ‘BIG IDEAS’ how about big rebuttals…fuck offs to cosmopolitan media arsewipes parroting the same old gibberish?…. Oh it might frighten people…well they’re going to get a fright when the whole economy collapses and we’re under the tory ukip jackboot. These people mean business. It’s time the SNP did.

  267. Dunks says:

    Luigi says:
    17 October, 2016 at 12:43 pm
    It’s getting quite hard to find a copy of the National these days. It seems to have disappeared from a few of its usual outlets. Either it’s distribution is crap, and it is not keeping up with demand, or something fishy is going on.


    I emailed The National when none of the three shops in my village had any left after 10:00 am.

    They replied, asking the names and addresses of the shops involved and ever since, there have been plenty Nationals on the news stand in each shop.

  268. Papadox says:

    What about the west of Shetland/Atlantic margin prospects for oil & gas. All Scottish oil/gas receipts should be credited to Scotland. Gers is just another con trick dreamed up by londinium to steal money from Scotland and give it to Londinium to squander.
    Plus we do not want or should we be paying for trident hs2 Hinckley point etc. Gers is a joke or more to the point a fraud against the people of Scotland.

  269. Proud Cybernat says:

    Marr show.

    “There’s less support now for independence than in 2014.”

    You sure about that, Andy? Care to put it to the test?

    No? Thought not.

    Just SAYING something is fact won’t ever MAKE it fact, nomatter how much the Yoons wish it to be so. And trying to talk done indy support won’t work either – not in the digital age of social media.

    BBC Misreporting Scotland – again!

    Oh – enjoy…

  270. Proud Cybernat says:

    “down” not “done” – naturally.

  271. Perhaps the fact that Russian influence is spreading is what lies behind today’s events. I do not know if people are aware that Russia recently signed an oil deal with Venezuela, in which crude Venezuelan oil would be exported to India, refined by Russian petrol chemical plants and sold throughout India and most of Asia in petrol stations owned by Russian companies.
    Russia has also sold India lts most modern anti aircraft system recently put into Syria.
    It always pays to follow the money

  272. Meg merrilees says:

    Chic McGregor@1.06
    Agree, i’ve noticed an increase in low flights and my sister has heard much heavier gunfire sounds from the nearby firing range, both of us think something’s afoot!

    Sunniva@ 1.18
    I read that too, in the times Scotland. Not only has this guy has set up a petition to make it treasonable to oppose Brexit but he especially wants that to apply if someone takes action likely to lead to re-instating the Union! Do they realise how arrogant the are?

    How can May say there is only one Brexit, a UK Brexit and she can’t release any details but now we hear that there could be billions spent on keeping the city in the Single market, but no-one else??
    Look at the situation developing in Ireland and the problems they’re trying to head-off.
    I resent having to pay an extra £7 more for a tank of petrol because of our ‘Pooling and Sharing’ with South Britain and this is only the start of price rises!

    Wonder how long it will be till there’s a vote of ‘ No Confidence ‘ In Theresa May’s government – if Miliband,Clegg and colleagues don’t get a parliamentary vote on Article 50 that coat peg is going to get very shoogly!

  273. Luigi says:

    First the foreigners are demonised.

    Then they want the foreigners on lists.

    Oh look, there goes freedom of speech (RT)!

    This all has a nasty familiarity about it.

  274. Col says:

    There must be people in Europe we can now rely on where previously they wouldn’t get involved because they didn’t know much of our situation.
    We need headline grabbing stuff to emanate from Europe that is in Scotlands favour for a change.
    They need to be made aware of the dire situation we are in with the BBC and world famously nasty British press.

  275. gordoz says:

    @proud cybernat

    Aye saw that on Andrew Mire show yesterday with that wee umpaloompa Toby Yoon.
    Looked a deliberate ‘after you sir’ freeby ignorant lie, unchallenged by the hapless BBC hack.

    But then the channel is the give away.
    State broadcasting as it always will be.

    The presents h

  276. clipper says:

    HUNDREDS of comments on the RT site – and elsewhere i.e. zerohedge – already about the UK regime’s attempt to stifle free speech by having RT’S bank accounts blocked, and not long after Assange’s internet connection was cut by a “state party.”

    SNP/SG should be making representations to RT letting them know that they they’re ready to help in whatever way they can.

  277. JLT says:

    Well, as Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels both stated, “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”

    Problem is …more than half of Scotland know the truth.

    The lie by Mundell that “people were aware that there was going to be a vote on whether the United Kingdom remained in the EU” isn’t going to believed by anyone except hardcore Unionists. Even those who were in the Better Together camp know that repeating the excuse of ‘the EU was not an issue during the 2014 Scottish Referendum campaign’ are kidding themselves.

    Many Scots voted to stay with the UK Union because they believed that from an economic, busines-related and even the security of the EU was a very good reason to vote ‘No’.

    Now with the Tories caught in a trap of their own making, their trying to erase history, point fingers, and continually shake their heads violently as they try to ‘demand’ that Scotland stops this ‘nonsense’ of a 2nd Referendum.

    I’m surprised David Mundell didn’t combust into flames due to all that pent-up fury, energy and frustration from Andrew Neil’s questions.

    And the thing is …the more the Tories screw-up Brexit, the more Scots who voted ‘No’ in the 2014 Referendum …are more likely to vote ‘Yes’ next time round.

  278. gordoz says:

    @proud cybernat

    Aye saw that on Andrew Mire show yesterday with that wee umpaloompa Toby Yoon.
    Looked a deliberate ‘after you sir’ freeby ignorant lie, unchallenged by the hapless BBC hack.

    But then the channel is the give away.
    State broadcasting as it always will be.

    PS The wee black presents have been distributed Throughout Cowal and mighty fine they look too.
    Seen some in Glasgow city centre also.
    Word is getting out sir.

  279. harry mcaye says:

    Four days since Nicola’s announcement and still no new independence poll. I clicked on a link to a new You Gov poll last night and there were no questions, took me straight to the “rate this poll” part. I wonder if my reply of “no sodding questions” got through?

  280. Luigi says:

    JLT says:

    17 October, 2016 at 4:30 pm

    Well, as Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels both stated, “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”

    Aye, true for their day, but they did not have social media. It’s getting increasingly difficult for the establishment to hide the truth. This is why they are all over the place, they just cannot deal with it. We live in a different age.

  281. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Gordoz

    Nice one, Gordoz. Good to hear the message, (BBC MISREPORTING SCOTLAND) is getting out there. Great work everyone.

    Saw it on Sky News the other night when they interviewed one of the SNP delegates. Wasted some good whisky when I saw it on her lapel.

    BBC will be fizzin! GIRFUT.

  282. Robert Graham says:

    Back to the item in question ,
    A personal observation of Mr Mundell. What a sad confused individual he is ,and a total barefaced liar is this really the best of the bunch ,
    Take away the media promotion of this lot and there is nothing there ,
    A fifth of the voting population support them .
    Almost every one of their MSPs crept in the back door at Holyrood .
    Their only aim and mission is to protect by any means the Union nothing else matters , Infrastructure ,peoples welfare, the Scottish health service , the People ,they couldn’t give a f/k about anyone else ,even their own kind , they will never change so why waste time save your breath it aint worth the effort they are beyond help .

  283. louis.b.argyll says: say..’The lie by Mundell…isn’t going to believed by anyone except hardcore Unionists.

    Not necessarily true. Even in Mundell’s case, just because he spouts forth, doesn’t mean he genuinely believes it.
    DON’T GRANT THEM THE EXCUSE THAT THEY BELIEVE WHAT THEY’VE BEEN TOLD. He and others know fine well that it’s a lie.

  284. Davosa says:

    So Brillo (top Yoon wanker extraordinaire) v Fluffy ( lickspittle little Nazi toady) and Brillo can’t put the incompetent,t snivelling, lying git away. Pathetic really but consistent with the standard of BBC (Biased Broadcasting Cu—) politicos.

  285. Proud Cybernat says:

    It must be quite demoralising for the likes of Union Jackie and Co when they go to present their evening ‘news’ and know that an ever increasing majority in Scotland just laugh at them.

    True story. In the pub last Friday eve. Union Jackie’s show came on and from the back of the pub someone shouted “BBC Misreporting Scotland!” to much mocking laughter.

    Aye – they have a fight on their hands now as ever more of the country awakens.

    Hell slap it intae them. Hope you sleep well, Jackie & Co knowing that more than half the country are laughing at you every time you now appear on the box. I feel really gutted for you.

    On second thoughts, GIRFUY!!

  286. manandboy says:

    In this Andrew Neil/David Mundell Sunday Politics interview, it is obvious that Mundell is lying. So also in the interview linked to below, even though he is mouthing a script – as may also have been David Porter of the BBC.

    It is perhaps time to put Mr Mundell under closer and continuous scrutiny in the weeks and months of Brexit which lie ahead, for on that path, lie many possible pitfalls for the SoS for Scotland. Perhaps Brexit will see his demise, especially if, as seems likely, he will be both embarrassed and humiliated by being relegated to the sidelines by Mrs May. Interview of David Mundell by David Porter & subsequent studio comments by Severin Carrell, the Guardian’s Scotland correspondent.

  287. davidb says:

    @ papadox

    What exactly is it Scotland exports to them, and what is it we import from them?

    Norway has a huge trade surplus with the UK. Because it exports Oil and Gas through the UK. We export oil and gas, electricity, food and whisky which is reexported. They have everything to lose by stopping us and nothing to gain. The retaliatory measures which Scotland – or the EU – places on any “blockade” by rUK will hurt them way more than it hurts us. The world will buy oil from Isis. It sure as hell won’t be stopped buying Brent crude.

    rUK will hurt themselves to spite us? Pull the other one. It is in their interest to keep trade the way it is. It is in their interest to share their monopoly money with us – but because of their petty stupidity that is going to their loss big time when we go.

  288. Fireproofjim says:

    You are right about 100 years of Scottish oil offshore.
    However it is likely that the main producing areas in the future will be in the Atlantic, west of Shetland. Already some of the biggest finds there are being evaluated. For interest, look up the Lancaster field, owned by Hurricane Energy. It is now thought that there could be over a billion barrels of oil there and in the neighbouring blocks.It is potentially another Brent or Forties field, as is the Clair Ridge which is already producing.
    All this will not go away and in a way it is better to delay production until we are independent, otherwise the profits all flow to Westminster.
    No too long though please. Some of us pensioners are getting worried that we miss the big Inde party.

  289. Dorothy Devine says:

    I am truly shocked by the RT story .

    The Government denies all knowledge but whom do we know that trusts the rabble in charge at Westminster.

    As for Washington , a bigger bunch of warmongering liars would be hard to find.

  290. manandboy says:

    O/T Where I am, the Local Authority are doing rather a lot, unusually, of road and pavement repairs. If this is being replicated elsewhere, unusually, then one could be forgiven for thinking that the Labour Administration hereabouts is spending the ‘reserves’ so as not to leave any cash in the kitty for an anticipated incoming SNP majority next May.
    Perhaps Wingers from elsewhere in the Kingdom have noticed signs of splashing the cash on Council projects.

  291. Flower of Scotland says:

    See that NatWest have closed RT in U.K.,s account.

    Laughably citing that RT is bad propaganda! Ha,ha!

    You just couldn’t make it up!

  292. White Van Wummin says:

    RT UK Bank account closure – Here is the BuzzFeed RBS investigation stuff that the Kaiser program refers to. Interesting but grim reading..

    Might be just the excuse, I doubt the RBS would take much of a push and given the bank government relationship this would amount to serious bit of censorship.

    This is Rt’s editorial on their bank closure here…

    The British government indeed considers RT to be a major security threat, according to a report it gave to the parliament in September. The cabinet’s plan to counter it, as stated to MPs, is to encourage “greater alignment between policy and communications divisions” of NATO structures as well as pumping more money into BBC World Service.

    Here’s the gov report that the RT editorial refers to – Russia: Implications for UK defence and security: Government Response to the Committee’s First Report of Session 2016–17


  293. yesindyref2 says:

    Things like this may be relevant – about Menzies Distribution

  294. Dan Huil says:

    If RT goes off-air how can we get balanced reporting during IndyRef2?

  295. Robert Louis says:

    davidb at 522pm,

    This rubbish about Scotland exporting to England, is partly due to the fact that many Scottish exports (whisky is a huge global export, but mostly shipped via England), leave via English ports/airports/channel tunnel.

    So, what is actually exported from Scotland to England, and what is exported to England to travel onwards, is just not clear.

    Are ‘exports’ to just England (and not abroad) even recorded as such? Do Lees snowballs (which are truly awesome, btw) produced in Scotland, actually get recorded as an ‘export’ when they travel down the M74 on a lorry?, or would it be at the point of departure from the UK (say at Heathrow or Dover) that they get recorded as exports?

    I’d love to see some clarity on that issue.

  296. JLT says:

    @ Luigi

    Aye, true for their day, but they did not have social media

    Absolutely agree with you, matey. This is what now terrifies the Westminster Establishment and their media mouthpieces. There is nothing they can say, nor print, that can’t be cast back at them quick time. As you say, they live in dread of social media

  297. yesindyref2 says:

    Very well presented. I knew the figures individually, but never put together as well as you have. I’m nicking it for that blog of mine if that’s OK?

    @Bob Mack
    Generally internationally, fixed assets like building just stay in the geograpgy they’re in. So for instance the British Museum building would belong to the rUK without sharing, but its contents would be divvied up. I think our population share is 8.3%.

  298. Grouse Beater says:

    Ben Madigan: “We’ll soon find out whether it’s a blanket ban or just one bank.”

    Rumours from New York same is happening there.

    The return of Cold War tactics benefits only weapon and security companies, and of course, western sports bodies.

    The US and Britain said on Sunday that they were considering fresh measures and possible further sanctions against Moscow in protest at Russia’s continuing bombardment of civilians in eastern Aleppo, Syria.

    Expect reprisal; Russian authorities shut down BBC in Moscow – if only we had the gift to supplant BBC Scotland with broadcaster devoted to Scotland and its international outlook!

  299. JLT says:

    @ louis.b.argyll say..’The lie by Mundell…isn’t going to believed by anyone except hardcore Unionists.

    Oh absolutely mate. You’re bang on the money. If Mundell actually believed in his wee mantra, then he would sitting there very relaxed with Andrew Neil and making a calm and reasoned argument of why he is right. But that is not what is being reflected here.

    Instead, he sits there with a quiet frustrated look on his face, eyes darting in all directions and the lines of his forehead appearing and disappearing every second he speaks. This is a man who is not comfortable with the answers that he is giving.

    Yep …this is a man who knows that he is trying to give an answer, but knowing full well, that each statement he gives is nowhere near the truth. Andrew Neil, typical Tory mouthpiece for the BBC could have (and should have) annihilated him!

  300. Capella says:

    The BBC’s account of RBS closing down RT accounts is Orwellian.

    “RT, which is run by the Kremlin, has previously been sanctioned by UK broadcasting regulator Ofcom for biased reporting.
    This included claims that the BBC “staged” a chemical weapons attack for a news report on Syria.

    Russian media outlets have made inroads into the UK recently.

    The state-funded Sputnik news agency set up in Edinburgh in August to broadcast live radio programmes from Scotland. It said its goal was “telling the untold” to Scottish and UK audiences, although critics say it will act as a Kremlin mouthpiece.”

  301. yesindyref2 says:

    @@Bob Mack
    An interesting example of that is the breakup of the USSR, where Ukraine took a share of the debt, and kept its nuclear bases and missiles. After a time it was unable to service the debt under the arrangement with Russia, So Russia wiped out the debt in exchange for all the missiles and launchers.

    Curious parallels with Scotland and Faslane 🙂

    “You want our missiles? Then take our debt!”

  302. Robert Peffers says:

    @Papadox says: 17 October, 2016 at 2:34 pm:

    i>” … That could be quite correct if that’s how they want to play it.”

    They are already playing it, Papadox. I suspect they are really frightened that England will struggle to have any World Market share post Brexit. Can you name a single commodity that England produces that is not also provided by the world outside of England?

    Furthermore what Scotland exports to England is generally exported at a reduced price or just stolen from Scotland just now.

    Scotland is a net exporter of power, fuel plus food & drink.

    That export of power is a fiddle because of the UK variable Grid Connection Charging system that charges Scottish generating companies more per Kilowatt of power they add to the grid depending upon their distance from London and, believe it or not, actually subsidising the southern generators for every kilowatt they add to the grid.

    Then we have the food and drink scam that Westminster operates. They do NOT count Scottish produced goods that leave the UK via English ports and airports as Scottish exports but as English Exports.

    The entire Oil & Gas revenues are classed as being from the UK’s Extra-region Territory and not a single bent penny is credited as from Scotland even although between 95% and 98% of it comes out of Scottish territorial waters. There are many more nice little UK earners at Scotland’s expense but you will get the point that there claims are panic inspired lies.

  303. Thepnr says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    Just a wee thank you for your initiative with the Mis-reporting Scotland stickers. I said before and will say again I believe that this will gain traction. Just as the “Red Tories Out” did and look at the state of Labour in Scotland now.

    It is these wee initiatives like yours that really make the difference, think of the Wee Blue Book probably the most influential Yes supporting words in writing. It was probably too late though to swing the balance.

    I hope you intend to have another fundraiser and get more of the same on the streets. Not necessarily the same message but all about the BBC.

    Their bias must be publicised and they should be left naked for all to see. BBC BALANCE? AYE RIGHT!

  304. heedtracker says:


    You’ll see it. We’ve never died a winter yet, as my granny in Aberdeen says. She’s quite old too, ex tory vote, very YES indeed.

    Other news, The Graun clown show’s mock Scotland section farts into action for another week of demean, black out, troll Scotland non news,

    Nicola Sturgeon has announced that, as in Finland, every newborn Scot will get a gift box from the government. A Scottish mother suggests 10 items to include

    A guide to referendums
    Might as well start them young. The future may be uncertain for Scotland’s newborns, but it is likely to be paved with #indyrefs.

    A Tunnock’s teacake
    Placing this Scottish dome of delight beside Sophie la Girafe in a post-Brexit Scotland will serve as a metaphor for a handshake with Europe. Also, it looks pretty.

    Can you believe a hack gets paid for this grot people:D

  305. Robert Graham says:

    The Tory mouthpiece BBC at it again with their usual Deflection the current one being Police Scotland and funding this follows on from the Police cars being held together with tape that surfaced from the obliging Police federation release of a photograph of ONE car during the SNP conference, The federation along with our ever friendly BBC had a stand at the conference, That was clever wasn’t it ? stupidity in action, this added to putting up Angus Robertson against Andrew Neil ,again ,weren’t the other times bad enough Neil runs rings round him every time it’s embarrassing . Jeane Freeman – Tommy Sheppard – Tommy Sheridan are the only ones who are able for Neil , I read a few comments on Angus Robertsons performance regarding the interview with Neil , Christ some people are easily pleased , He was woeful and made to look stupid he hasn’t learned from his first encounter with him.
    Media Training is badly required for a lot of current MPs .

  306. manandboy says:

    If you believe George Osborne, then David Cameron was one of the most perceptive politicians of his generation. It must have come as a bit of a shock to George, when Cameron granted the right wing of his party a referendum on Europe, and in so doing turned his shotgun on the UK and shot it in the belly.

    As the whole world knows, but Westminster won’t admit, the UK has been hemorrhaging value, reputation and credibility ever since, while at the same time telling the populace that the UK has never been healthier. Lies heaped on unlimited incompetence.

    This is what we must endure until a decisive resolution is reached. Thankfully, Nicola has a clear understanding of the critical condition of the stricken patient and of the strength of the democratic will of the Scottish Nation. With the EU behind Scotland now, as distinct from 2014, when Europe simply did not understand why Scotland wanted Independence, now the EU understands only too well.

    So there is much hope, but so much more work to be done by the Scottish Government in securing Scotland’s ties with Europe. If only we could say that this Tory Government under Theresa May, could be relied on to play the ball where it lies, then the proceedings would be able to be conducted smoothly, fairly and to an agreeable end for all.

    But this is Perfidious Albion we are dealing with here. A Country which has a three hundred year long history of dealing with Scotland in an often brutal, cruel and heartless manner. Furthermore, a history of continuous exploitation and contempt, extending in recent times to perhaps the greatest Colonial plundering in the history of The Empire, viz. of North Sea Oil and Gas.

    English propaganda will of course convert all the above into an unceasing wave of kindness and generosity toward the Scots, while maintaining diligent management and stewardship of Scotland itself.
    David Mundell, the hapless Secretary of State for Scotland and the latest Liar-in-Chief in the Scottish Office, will make this case repeatedly, while simultaneously proclaiming the wonderful opportunities awaiting us as a result of Mr Cameron’s suicidal EU Referendum folly.

    And so the world awaits the outcome of the divorce proceedings between the EU & the UK; and between Scotland and England. Others too are in court with a case for separation.

    One thing is almost certain. From here, there can be little, if any, chance for reconciliation in the UK. With such a shift to the Right in England, as witnessed in the EU Referendum, Scotland finds itself with a partner with a personality change and with whom incompatibility is now the default setting. And, so much has been said and done, which cannot be undone.

    It’s over.

  307. Tinto Chiel says:

    I was down in the galley making Mrs TC her tea when I heard a certain Ben Haddow on Pravdasound4, and he a Fellow of The Institute for Statecraft, explaining everything about #RT Bad to the proles. And what he doesn’t know about Russia………

    You don’t know anything about TIfS? Fill your boots:

    See, this RT is really a state propaganda arm and its editorial standards are very, very bad, not like the BBC or CNN, says Ben, with a very, very grave voice.

    Fortunately the Irony/Bullshit filters on my DAB radio held out long enough for me to conclude this attempt to freeze the RT account is to try to minimise the effect of its counter-narrative regarding what is really going on in Syria.

    Then I nipped next door to see an aged neighbour, who was watching the STV news. There I discovered that Fort George was built after the Battle of Flodden. True, but about 233 years after.

    I think they meant The Battle of Culloden.

    Where would we be without the MSM?

    Independent, I suppose.

  308. Roboscot says:

    Well said manandboy at 6:32pm.

  309. John H. says:

    I heard Iain Dale on LBC about half an hour ago on the RT account closure say “About time too.” We are tied to a bunch of fascists people.

  310. heedtracker at 2.57

    The first thing we have to do is establish that a deficit is not a debt. A very large percentage of the population think it is.

    The deficit is the difference between your assumed revenue and your intended expenditure. Both can change and the deficit changes as this happens.

    The £15 billion deficit we are continually being told about should always be described as “Scotland’s UK deficit”.
    It’s size is determined to a considerable extent by intended spending on “national” and UK vanity projects to which we contribute but from which we will enjoy no benefit whatsoever.

    The UK on the other hand has cut its deficit. It did this by cutting its spending. By so doing it damaged economic activity and produced less in tax revenue thus increasing it’s actual national debt standing at £1.7 trillion (£1.7,000,000,000,000) which is virtually unsustainable and may cause a complete crash.

  311. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Thepnr

    Cheers. Aye–this is just the beginning of the battle with the BBC IN Scotland. Lots more to come to bring the effect of their rabid propaganda down to a tiny peep.

    Big thanks to all contributors for the funding and the distributors for doing the running–all doing a smashing job.

    Biggest thanks though must go to Rev Stu. Without his site it simply couldn’t have happened.

  312. Proud Cybernat says:

    The UK’s broad shoulders…

  313. Still Positive. says:

    During the row over strawberries recently many people on here noted that some fresh Scottish produce was actually packed in the relevant supermarket’s packing site in England so they would be part of both our exports and imports to rUK.

    Presumably they would be grown, packaged and sold in Scotland thereby reducing our carbon footprint considerably.

  314. harry mcaye says:

    manandboy- Do you live in Hamilton by any chance? That thought about leaving the kitty empty never occurred to me but having said that, the long stretch of pavement outside my house was recently done, and it must have been the worst stretch of pavement in the town. It should have been done ten years ago. Even if you are right, so much is being done in Hamilton right now, we should be good for a good decade or so!

  315. harry mcaye says:

    manandboy – Ach, just seen you live in Fife. Maybe there will be a note left after all, “there’s no money left, ha ha!”

  316. dramfineday says:

    Anent the topic, the pair of them would heart roast ye.

    Anent the BBC Misreporting Scotland stickers, I was out for my afternoon stroll (there’s more than Stuart does it ye ken) in sunny Colinton Mains Park when I spotted an elderly couple staring at something on a post. When I arrived at the post it was one of the aforesaid stickers. Brought a great big grin to my old fizzog.

    Anent RT stick around guys, you’re getting right up the establishments hooter

  317. snode1965 says:

    @yesindieref2…no problem.? UK, Scottish and Welsh figures are April 16…most recent NI figures I could find were 2012.

  318. Al Dossary says:

    @ all those with councils making long overdue repairs – Could it be a final attempt to squeeze the final pennies out every last corrupt contract the Yoon councillors have in place? Maybe also trying to empty the coffers to leave the new councillors with a scorched earth to inherit.

    Also been watching RT news for the last hour or so – the decision to close their bank account just seems to be bats hit crazy.

  319. heedtracker says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    17 October, 2016 at 7:02 pm
    heedtracker at 2.57

    The first thing we have to do is establish that a deficit is not a debt. A very large percentage of the population think it is.

    Its really more about spin. Scotland’s worse than Greece they scream, from the roasters in Pacifc Quay to the other end of the yoon spin machine, which lands anywhere across teamGB.

    You have to wonder when it began to dawn on a nutcase like Crash Gordo, that giant debt is power, power.

  320. Thepnr says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    I tried thinking of lots of other messages and they were easy to come by. But then I thought, no that just muddies the waters.

    BBC MIS-REPORTING SCOTLAND is as good as it gets.

    That is the message we keep hammering home. Short, sweet and true.

  321. K1 says:

    Here in the west end they are improving road surfaces and putting down the parking bay lines for new meters too…so there may well be an emptying of reserves from council’s coffers in preparation for our final assault on the Labour branch in Scotland.

    In the shouty voice of ex Mathieson: Bring. It. On.

  322. Bob Mack says:

    @Dr Jim,

    I found what you were looking for under the Business for Scotland material.
    Apparently they state that at a “Conservative ” pardon the word, estimate, Scotland would have over £109 billion in assets transferred. They reckon we would have £ 8 billion at least in military assets.
    Sorry but impossible to link material.

  323. Stoker says:

    Thepnr wrote (to Proud Cybernat) on 17 October, 2016 at 6:14pm:

    “I hope you intend to have another fundraiser and get more of the same on the streets. Not necessarily the same message but all about the BBC.”

    I’m already on the case in my neck of the woods Alex and i think it’s a good idea for as many folk as possible throughout Scotland to be doing the same thing.

    It’s a bit much to be expecting one person to take on the big responsibility of this kind of project so i decided to act independently by producing factual leaflets under the BBC Misreporting Scotland theme.

    I think if we all did something similar all over our country it would certainly set the cat among the pigeons, it would get the message talked about and our sheer numbers would make it damn near impossible for anyone to pin it down on one person.

    Plus, i truly feel that quite a lot of folk get sick and tired of seeing constant fundraisers or people begging for financial support for various causes.

    Some people can afford to donate left, right and centre but some people such as myself can’t. I feel that working on my own we project is a better use of what little i have and that i also do not feel guilty due to giving to some and not to others.

    I think PC’ initiative is a great example to us all but just think how the outcome would look if people all over Scotland started alerting their own patches to the BBC’ misreporting.
    (massive smiley thing)

  324. yesindyref2 says:

    Hark the Herald (sorry call me dave)
    Businesses will move North of the Border if Scotland remains in EU, warns Swansea MP

    My goodness I think he’s got it, he’s really got it.

  325. Thepnr says:


    Totally agree, what we can do by ourselves is a bonus and well one to you for taking up the mantle and doing what you can in your own area.

    I hear what you say about fundraising and that is true, I think the point is though that there are some who can afford to contribute and are willing to do so.

    So why shouldn’t we allow them that are on side to do what they can financially? I have no objection to people throwing money in the direction of Proud Cybernat or Wings Over Scotland.

    Some can and some can’t as they don’t have the means, well I say that those with the means should support those without and that is what supporters of Independence are doing.

    We don’t have massive donors here just lots of small ones and that is great. There is no class structure on Wings just class.

  326. Gman says:

    This is what the BBC trust said in a complaint / fob off report regarding DD saying that EU ref was known during episode of question time in March 2016:

    “…David Dimbleby had not been wholly accurate in saying that Scottish voters at the time of the Independence referendum knew there would be another referendum on Britain’s EU membership…”

    Page 52, from may 16 report from here:

    Interesting that despite being stung months before he let the same inaccuracy go unqualified!

  327. heedtracker says:

    UKOK spin BBC England style. Pound is junk currency but the BBC propagandists say,

    The fall in the value of sterling has acted as an important “shock absorber” for the economy, according to Bank of England deputy governor Ben Broadbent.”

    Shock absorbers are good things right?

    BBC England also allow comments on their patch of the web.

  328. yesindyref2 says:

    So which is going to be the first of the previously Unionist dailies to break ranks and go for Indy: “Stop faffing about Nicola, call Indy Ref 2, we’re behind you”?

    Could it be the Herald, or the Record? It’s a race!

  329. Gman says:

    Arse, got dimblby and neil mixed up. Point stands, BBC knows fine well about this inaccuracy.

  330. Tam Jardine says:

    Re the media training. One thing the establishment politicians and the media do exceptionally well is use a small number of stats and “facts” again and again which sound like they should be a home run if you don’t know any better or if you don’t look into it.

    £15 billion deficit… 4 times the exports to the rUK as the EU. Spanish veto. We will get this endlessly- this being able to repeat the same simple message again and again lost us the last indyref. The media will repeat the same figures over and over again until you know them better than you know your pin. That is how highly dubious stats that come with loads of caveats they become established facts.

    Now – there is no time in a 5 minute interview to necessarily go into just how much of a guess the export figures are.

    The Global Connections Survey appears to ask about 780 firms to fill in a questionnaire in order to ascertain the export values and destinations of 170,000 companies.

    I can just imagine getting the 5 pages of notes and questionnaire for my company. Lets just say I wouldn’t be able to spend hours meticulously collating data!

    So 780 responses somewhere between completely accurate and pure guesswork transposed for the entire country. I might know if I read the notes that EU nationals staying at my hypothetical hotel count as an export for example… or I might complete the whole thing as a guesstimate.

    Everywhere you go with export figures and particularly with exports inside the UK you see health warnings and yet we have fluffy trotting out the same pish everyone else repeats like it is written in tablets of stone.

    We clearly DO export a load of stuff to the rest of the UK- we just don’t have a clue how much. We and our reps need to start using the opponent’s weight against it. So rUK imports loads of things from us, eh? What do they import, what do they need, what do they stand to lose if trade becomes difficult?

    Scotland is a net exporter and England is a massive net importer. If exports to England become a tortuous process under WTO rules that is going to be a problem for Scotland. But by god that problem is magnified for a net importer!

    Anyway: to summarise we need to play the same game and get powerful simple stats of our own out there and they need to be hammered home again and again until they sink in. I am sure this is being tried but it is not yet succeeding.

  331. Nana says:

    Former No voter writes

    Scottish Independence Is Now A Necessary Antidote To The Reactionary Beast Of Brexit

  332. Petra says:

    There was mention of the MoD selling off Fort George on the news earlier and that the money from the sale would be spent on, for example, Lossiemouth, Clyde and Faslane. It was pointed out that the MoD own? land in Scotland to the equivalent of eight times the area of Glasgow.

    I’m ‘stuck’ on my IPad / visiting someone right now. Anyone fancy looking into this? For example are they planning to sell off other MoD sites? Where are they located? Who too? What will the impact be on jobs / economy etc, etc.

  333. Stoker says:

    Thepnr on 17 October, 2016 at 8:32pm:

    Very true! I was just offering another option for those of us who can’t but want to get involved more. I’m afraid these days my limit is helping to keep WOS alive and that’s about it.

    However, i never feel that that is enough, i always want to be doing a lot more and i now think i’ve found a way to satisfy my feelings of commitment and it hardly breaks the bank.

    I think one of our greatest strengths is in our sheer numbers and individuality, they cannot pin us down nor will they ever and that, as they say, sticks in their craw.

    Am away tae watch a movie on Netflix. OH, talking of which folks, last night i tried to watch a movie on Netflix called “Mascots” and i shit yous not, in the movie they have an awards scheme called ‘The Fluffy Awards’ – Gold Fluffy, Silver Fluffy and Bronze Fluffy. Wee Fluffy Muddle immediately sprang to mind.

    The boss gave me some strange looks as i burst out laughing with my thoughts, especially since the actual movie was utter guff and we turned it off 20-odd minutes into it, it was supposed to be a comedy but it’s more likely to give you depression.

    Fluffy Muddle, the tory mascot! LMAO!

  334. Bob Mack says:


    I will check for Scotland, but I do know the MOD is selling off 10 former sites for housebuilding in England to meet Tory manifesto. I think the total is 140 million. The thing is Scotland should be entitled to 8% of that figure as we helped to pay for them.

    I wonder if we will see any of it ?

  335. Another Union Dividend says:

    On SNP web site, I agree this badly needs a more usable bite size searchable facts and figures section to help rebut Unionist propaganda.

    Also as an SNP member, who was not at Annual Conference, where is the list of those elected to national office, to NEC and to other national committees

    It should at least be in the Members section.

  336. yesindyref2 says:

    Interesting to see he follows Iain McW on his twitter. I think it’s people like Iain, Kevin McK, perhaps even Kenny McAskill who help make people think.

  337. Orri says:

    There is no EVEL legislation. Then again Mundell often chooses to believe what suits him.

    There’s a change to some parts of parliamentary procedure that allows only English and Welsh MPs to vote at some stages in legislation that only effects them. It’s more of a Veto and Scottish and NI MPs also get a vote. Cameron wasn’t brave enough or was in too much of a hurry to properly impose EVEL. Perhaps May might.

  338. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, his reply to Neil Findlay (looks like you’ve fallen for Angus Robertson’s forget ideology line!): “On the contrary, I’ve woken up to the rotten reality of British nationalism.”

    He won’t be the last.

  339. Thepnr says:

    @Tam Jardine

    Anything we already export to England is because England needs it. If it could buy it cheaper from anywhere else in the world then it would.

    That is how the “market” works.

    Nothing will change after Independence other than Scotland will be in the driving seat. I’m serious.

    Think of how much North Sea Oil platforms and pipelines contracts are done in England. You may not kn ow this but it is a lot. Many too are built overseas, such as Clair Ridge.

    Norway wouldn’t allow this. they’d insist on a certain percentage being built in Scotland.

    Believe me when I tell you that this amount of work is massive, right now things for the Scottish sector of the North Sea are being built all over the world.

    Nothing wrong with that but an Independent Scotland could ensure they are built here. And they would be built reardless.

  340. Fred says:

    @ Lochside, hear, hear kid. Good post!

    @ Tinto, thought I was hearing things masel, Flodden! Jeez oh.

  341. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 21:20

    Anything we already export to England is because England needs it. If it could buy it cheaper from anywhere else in the world then it would.

    This is true. And what’s more, the Tory Brexiteers know it, which is why they keep arguing that the EU would have to strike a trade deal with their departed UK.

    The joke on them (one that they never seem to get) being that if Scotland were independent within the EU, the “must do a deal” would necessarily have to include US!

  342. yesindyref2 says:

    Nope. Steady as she goes. The absolute last thing the SNP should do right now is run out of the corner when the bell rings, swinging punches and tripping up on the ropes. Gently blocking all that’s thrown at them is the way to go. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Rope-a-dope!

    Cool heads are watching this, they want to see cool, not hot air.

  343. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Tinto, thought I was hearing things masel, Flodden! Jeez oh.”

    Indeed, Fred. Ran it past Mrs TC for confirmation, and you can’t get more categorical than that.

    Sheesh a gogo! No acutes available in this field.

  344. Tam Jardine says:


    Decommissioning will be huge in the future too. What is done is done but for the sake of future generations we need to change path and ensure that Scotland receives the full benefit from the oil and gas bonanza on the west coast throughout the entire supply chain.

    Some great posts on here tonight and excellent work by Proud Cybernat and Stoker taking on the BBC.

  345. call me dave says:

    Wolfe on the lam: 🙂

    UK Assets at about 8% for Scotland not really new news but always important to mention just to keep it simmering on the back boiler.

    Gone too far to be nice about it with the WM brigade and many English folk darn Sarf will be astonished about how they have been lied to by the MSM when the chips are down.

  346. Bob Mack says:

    Just thinking about all the great posts tonight. Obviously Westminster overcharges for services, but in effect it does it from both ends.

    If we take the examples of exports recorded against English ports and N Sea gas sold directly by pipeline from the infamous “extra region territories” to Europe, not only are they skimming the revenues,but they are effectively lowering Scotlands GDP,by a few percentage points as they are recorded as against other regions.
    This would of course stretch the deficit

  347. One_Scot says:

    Beginning to get the feeling that no matter what the question is for IndyRef2, it will roughly translate to,

    Do you want Scotland to live or die.

  348. Glamaig says:

    Germans expecting 10000 finance jobs to move to Frankfurt from London in the next 10 years, starting in 2017.

  349. Glamaig says:

    sorry that should be next 5 years not 10, and the google translate of this page is terrible. It says proposed vote, which it doesnt in the German. The article is dated today.

  350. Dr Jim says:

    @Bob Mack

    Thanks for the legwork Bob I’d remembered Alex Salmond in 2014 talking about our assets share and I always wondered how much that would be, but I think you’re definitely correct that number does sound small c conservative

    Even at that though it’s a still lot of Moolah

    The thing is though I’d bet the UK wouldn’t have that kind of money and probably would have difficulty borrowing it without the assets of Scotland as guarantor
    Catch 22 for the UK Guv there, no wonder they love us so much

  351. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, “Angry” Alex Johnstone MSP on STV.

  352. t nicholson says:


  353. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Do you want Scotland to live or die?”

    In a nutshell, One_Scot: yes, that’s what it’s all about.

    Cue lots of BBC obfuscation, obvs.

  354. DerekM says:

    @ yesindyref2

    I totally agree the SNP should continue to do what they are doing and leave the dirty work to some of their bosses us.

    Do not sell yourselves short the wingers are awesome we kick ass and chew bubblegum and we are all out of gum.

    The yoons dread us popping up in their face armed with the truth so much they do not even try to engage with us on wings anymore and all the rotten lies the yoons mumble is just the same rotten lies they have always mumbled and will be their downfall.

  355. yesindyref2 says:

    I think I can watch these things critically and quite impartially, but what I saw was Joan McAlpine both demolish Angry Alex – and know when to sit back and let him demolish himself. Excellent performance.

  356. Still Positive. says:

    Glamaig @ 10.37

    Gibraltar have also been in talks with the SG and were, I believe, at the SNP conference on Friday, at least.

    Don’t know the history of Gibraltar but I have heard it said that in the event of Scottish independence they could be ceded to Scotland in order to remain in the EU.

    However, I don’t know what those in Gibraltar think. They could retain their British passports but also apply for Scottish EU passports.

    That may well be up for a vote there between Spain and Scotland.

  357. Petra says:

    Tam at 8:39pm …….

    Spot on Tam. They’re all singing from the same hymn sheet and of course if people hear their mantras being repeated over and over again (brainwashing) they’ll be inclined to believe them; one of the most basic examples being “Sturgeon should focus on the day job’, followed by Education, Police, NHS in Scotland is abysmal.

    The SNP should be sharing data, facts and figures, on their online site (which we can then use to disseminate) and employing someone to demonstrate, through role-play and so on, how to deal with slippery customers like A Neil. They should have pat answers prepared, their mantras, to combat lies such as no oil left / GERS figures etc and MORE than anything become extremely adept at firing in key facts at every opportunity.

    On a personal note I’d like to mention the following. Years ago I was seriously grilled in Court over a number of days. I was fortunate enough to have spent some time prior to that observing, day after day, the tactics the ‘opposition’ were using when questioning witnesses. I was raging at what was going on such as lawyers and a ‘big gun’ QC using every vile, but legal, tactic under the sun to discredit extremely decent people, undermine the validity of their evidence / arguments and asking questions in such a way as to ‘limit’ answers. I’ll also point out that I should have been questioned (interrogated) first but ‘they’ kept delaying calling me up because they were working on destroying my case in the real world, outside of Court. Big mistake on their part as it just pushed my anger level right off the Richter Scale.

    Anyway by this point in time it was clear that we were losing the case. We were being totally decimated and I made up my mind, knowing I had one shot at it, that when I got called up I’d use my own little ‘strategy’ to deal with them and that was that when I was asked a question I would answer of course, but would also make a point of firing in some devastating but relevant facts before they could shut me up. I did this constantly and as you can imagine they were not one bit amused. Following that meetings were held and those who were left to be called up to give evidence got into groups and carried out role-play, as we had a (very) good idea of the questions they would be asked. We went over and over every possible ‘deviation’ in relation to form of questioning until we had perfected the technique. They then went on to ‘fire’ in extremely important facts to great effect. Suffice to say we won the case.

    I’ve used this example to highlight where I think some SNP politicians are going wrong and apologise if I’m coming across as being smart Alecky and arrogant, especially as I hold them all in high regard. I’m just saying as I reckon that this is the ‘last shot’ we’ll get at this and have to get it right. Before Nicola became FM SNP politicians didn’t get much of a look in by the media. More recently many of them have been seen on television, often, being interviewed / on debating panels etc. They should be using EVERY opportunity to combat the lies / get the truth out there: Fire in devastating facts whenever they possibly can. The best example of doing this that I’ve ever come across is Jeane Freeman V Andrew Neil. Maybe they should be thinking of using someone like Ms Freeman to set up role play classes or just employ a US expert in this field as the Establishment seemingly do.

  358. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh aye, we defo have our job to do, as does WIngs. We can boldy go where, errr, no SNP “source” can go. Personally I can’t resist the odd stir-up, and then sit back and see what happens 🙂

    Kind of like a stir-fry, don’t spare the vegetables, and pass the sauce.

  359. DerekM says:

    @ Still Positive

    If that is the case for Gibraltar then we must promise them their full independence no referendum just you guys are free have fun.

    And why not it would be the answer to the question just who owns the rock the people of Gibraltar do.

  360. Papadox says:

    Joan Macalpine a class act very astute politician. Alex Johnstone a very angry ignorant mentally challenged tolly bully boy and loudmouth with limited brain capacity. When I look at all these tolly MSPs I begin to see a common thread which appears to be of a genetic fault line.
    The yoons have no policy, no answers and nobody to even realise the hole their in, they just keep shouting and pulling sneery faces and are obsessed with having a second referendum. Think they have a lot in common with pig shit, forby the smell.

  361. Dr Jim says:

    I felt a great disturbance in the force tonight as BBC 2016 and Scotland tonight didn’t even try to paint the Scottish Government in a bad light in fact the the opposite

    I absolutely heard “Sturgeon Good” “Sturgeon Compassionate”
    “Sturgeon Caring” but the best one was “Sturgeon Genuine”

    Alex Johnstone was rushed to A&E after appearing on Scotland tonight for a scan to his exploding head after screaming that the Scottish Government were talking to other people again, wee soul was on his own tonight no handers from presenters or anybody

    What’s the world coming to, everything’s changed

  362. Breeks says:

    Petra 11:22

    Well said Petra. That is exactly what the SNP need to be doing, and doing regularly.

    Rehearsal, role play, and constant refreshing of headline awareness. Practice being grilled, and be well drilled about being concise and unflustered under pressure. Also watching their performance afterwards and learning from errors.

    If people are weak in presentation, it isn’t the end of the world, but don’t volunteer them for TV hot seats. We need to be every inch as ruthless as the BBC, and there should be no excuse for being unprepared.

  363. Ruby says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    17 October, 2016 at 8:29 pm

    Hark the Herald (sorry call me dave)
    “Businesses will move North of the Border if Scotland remains in EU, warns Swansea MP”

    My goodness I think he’s got it, he’s really got it.

    Ruby replies

    Businesses who want to be located in an EU country are going to move & EU countries will be doing all they can to attract these businesses.

    Would it only be a disaster for England & Wales if these companies moved to iScotland?

    Unionists see Spain as their friend & believe Spain will veto iScotland’s EU membership but Spain are working hard to attract business away from the UK.

    See last paragraph in this article:

    En el lado positivo, España aspira a albergar alguna de las dos instituciones comunitarias cuya sede tendrá que abandonar el Reino Unido: la Agencia Europea del Medicamento y la Autoridad Bancaria Europea (EBA), mientras que Madrid pugna con otras plazas financieras europeas por atraer a las empresas que opten por dejar la City.

    Google translation:
    ‘On the positive side, Spain aspires to host one of the two Community institutions whose headquarters will have to leave the UK: the European Medicines Agency and the European Banking Authority (EBA), while Madrid competing with other European financial centers to attract companies that choose to leave the City.’

  364. Ruby says:

    Do you think iScotland could convince the European Medicines Agency and the European Banking Authority to move here?

  365. DerekM says:

    @ Dr Jim

    We have reached a tipping point Dr Jim just watch as the reality dawns on some of these TV shills that their precious careers are in the balance.

    They know we know they have been lying to us they have the opportunity to redeem themselves before it is too late,i would suggest they take that opportunity or find us right in their face,maybe Proud Cybernats stickies have opened their eyes that we are coming for them 🙂

  366. BJ says:


    I have watched that interview with Jeane Freeman and A Neil a couple of times and it still raises a smile. Really put him in his place.


    Alex Johnstone is not easy on the eye or the ear. The ear because his whiney voice sets off my Vertigo and the eye because as a Tailor I keep thinking “that man really needs someone to tell him to buy his clothes bigger”

    Please, could someone cover up his shiny groin his nethers are bursting out the tight suit.

  367. Still Positive. says:

    Ruby @ 11.53

    Good idea about the European Medicines Agency (I think, don’t know anything about them.)
    but would be wary of the Banking Authority as Standard & Poors said before 1st indyref that we should reduce our percentage of GDP wre financial institutions.

  368. Ruby says:

    Still Positive. says:

    Don’t know the history of Gibraltar

    Ruby replies

    I only tiny bit of the history of Gibraltar and that is the name Gibraltar is very ‘foreign’ it’s Arabic.
    Way back somewhere between 711 – 1492 the rock was conquered by a Muslim invader called Tariq and he named the rock Gib al Tariq – which means Tariq’s rock (or something like that – you could always Google if you want more accurate facts!)

    I also know that every time a Spaniard visits the rock they bring a piece of the rock back with them to Spain, the aim is to slowly move the rock across the border. It seems Spainards feel very strongly about Gibraltar!

    The Spanish-UK border was closed during the time Spain was ruled by the Fascist Dictator General Franco and people would stand at the border shouting across no man’s land to their friends & relatives on the other side. It was very sad! It will be a lot easier when the UK/Spanish border is closed this time as people will be able to stand behind the barriers & Skype & wave!

  369. Still Positive. says:

    Ruby @ 12.27

    Thank you for that. Will google it tomorrow. Off to bed now.

  370. Ruby says:

    Still Positive. says:
    18 October, 2016 at 12:11 am

    Ruby @ 11.53

    Good idea about the European Medicines Agency (I think, don’t know anything about them.)

    Ruby replies

  371. Liz g says:

    Still Positive @ 12.11
    Like you I would be takin a guess, but European wasFinancial Authority,sounds more like a regulator than an Institution so mibbi/hopefully it wouldn’t be included within the advice from Standard & Poor.

  372. Ruby says:

    Why losing the European Medicines Agency is bad news for patients, jobs – and the NHS

  373. Still Positive. says:

    For all of you criticising the SNP: in Parliament they are doing a brilliant job. In particular Ian Blackford was great on the debate today on pensions and ISAs.

    On Wednesday, the SNP are leading a debate on the EU after PMQs – should start just before 1pm if you are able to watch.

  374. Peter Hutchison says:

    Fort George.
    It was talked a few years ago of moving regular soldiers out. This was because the accommodation could not be upgraded to single rooms. There was plans for the TA to use it.
    Historically it’s important. It nearly bankrupted the west minster government building it. Never used. Bit like the subs.
    There are some very good museums in FG. Worth a visit. The regimental Kirk was last building to go up. Payed for by the soldiers.
    So don’t know who owns what. Would imagine the planing restrictions would put off most buyers. It’s the last of three built. The others being Fort Augusts and Fot William.

  375. manandboy says:

    Things not getting any easier for Theresa May.(The National)

    Former LibDem leader Nick Clegg, who is backing the proposal, (to give MP’s a vote on it) told BBC’s Sunday Politics show, that this was not an attempt to ignore or subvert the result of June’s referendum.

    Clegg said if the proposal was voted down by MPs, it would mean May being forced to “improve her negotiating stance” and could delay the triggering of Article 50.

    “Yes, and by the way that would be a very good thing anyway because I think Theresa May has made already a fundamental tactical error by saying, frankly just to throw red meat to her backbenchers, that she’s going to trigger Article 50 in March of next year because she’s already, in doing so, lost about a quarter of her negotiating timetable because as anybody in Europe – and I speak to many politicians across Europe – will tell you, nothing is going to meaningfully happen until the end of next year after the German elections.”

  376. keaton says:

    Well that was brutal to watch. I thought Mundell was going to cry.

  377. Petra says:

    @ Boris at 11:00pm ……. ‘Weir Group – Scots still dance to their tune’.

    Thanks for that Boris. Strange, stranger and strangest.

    Strange that Lord Smith of Kelvin was ever asked to front the Smith Commission at all taking into account Weir Groups chequered history with Smith himself being the apologist for the company’s Iraq con. He left Weir Group just months before the Referendum but no doubt still has his finger in many pies, such as the company that ‘controls’ Rosyth Dock.

    Stranger still that they backed Better Together whilst stating that “Scotland could succeed as an Independent country. Independence would bring control over policy making closer to the people. It would allow an expanded range of economic policy levers to be tailored to the needs and circumstances of the economy and to the distinctive views and values of our people and flexibility to tailor business tax rates would be a significant attraction of Scotland in principle.”

    Strangest of all is that when all was said and done, following Smith, Westminster was left with 70% control over taxes and 85% control over welfare (Fiona Hyslop). What happened to the ‘expanded range of economic policy levers’, such as control of corporation tax? Why didn’t we get them?

    Answers on a postcard. Some clues to help …. ‘old boy’s network’, ‘revolving door’, ‘oil’ or ‘energy in general.’ Oh and the first prize is a two week holiday in Mosul curtesy of Weir Group.

  378. manandboy says:

    And BTW, devolution is just permission.

    At Holyrood, we have permission to decide how to spend Scotland’s pocket-money from Westminster.

    Now, let’s brag about how powerful this Parliament is. David Mundell first.

  379. Liz g says:

    RE The Fort George comments.

    Actually that presenter was twice as ignorant.
    Fort George was not only built after Culloden,it was built BECAUSE of Culloden.

    The sale of it would be a tricky one.
    The MOD in it’s current form didn’t buy it (the land) or build it,I think that was The Crown.
    So is there an argument that it’s a part of the Crown’s estate?

    Which means are they entitled to sell it and keep the money from that sale?
    Because even if they are,they would be getting rid of a very valuable asset that would have fallen to Scotland at Independence.

    To keep it for Scotland,would the Scottish Government have to pay for something we already own?
    Then and now the whole thing has been funded by the people.

    Should it be allowed to fall into private hands?
    That’s another tricky one,because it is in the care of Historic Scotland, who we also fund.

    It cannot be divided up,so it would be reasonable to say that only a very rich person or company could afford it.
    So yet again another part of Scotland would be owned by the Elite!

    There’s many questions that it’s sale touches on and as usual they are not getting asked never mind answered as far as I can see.
    The current debate seems to keep it open the local economy will suffer.That argument has only ever worked for Trident.
    Mibbi this is where we should be saying if you remove the army for economic reasons that’s a shame.But after you do the asset of the fort it’s self fall to Holyrood on behalf of the people of Scotland!

    That might bring who owns what in Scotland right into the public awareness well before the negotiation for everything else.
    A big public row about it might be the very thing that puts the thought that taking back what we own is a huge part of taking back control.

  380. Chic McGregor says:

    Petra 11:22

    Massive thumbs up.

    Jeanne Freeman was, of course, Labour trained, so cynics may well say “Well look where that got them.”.

    However, the very real and very different distinction is that we are in the right. Politically, Morally and Economically.

    Labour failed because their message was mince, not because of their messenger training.

  381. Petra says:

    @ Heedtracker at 11:56pm …. WGD

    Imo his best article ever. A copy should be sent to Mundell, Murray et al. In fact would make for a great flyer.


    @ Still Positive at 12:43am …..’Criticising the SNP.’

    I suppose I’ll be falling into that category Still Positive? If I do I’d like to point out that I’m a member of the Party and have worked my butt off for them … myself …. family …. Scotland.

    Getting our Independence is at the top of my wish list and that wish will never be realised without them. I know that and support them at every turn. Nicola Sturgeon and Alex rank amongst some of the people I value most highly in life, first up after my family members, and I have some (small) idea of how hard they and others are working on our behalf: How truly professional and Statesmanlike they are.

    All I’m asking for boils down to three things that is for an archive of relevant data to be placed on their website; to deal with MSM lies when put to them such as ‘GERS’, ‘no oil left’, ‘England subsidising Scotland’ and ‘not doing the education, Police, NHS day job’ and to use every opportunity they get to take the initiative and get some seriously relevant facts across.

    Like everyone else on here I’m conversant with the ‘truth’ in relation to these issues, however the vast majority of Scots are not. The vast majority never visit sites like this. They believe what they read, see and hear. Some will have reservations about the MSM however if they witness a member of the SNP on television not combatting lies what impression are they left with? I have a good idea because hardly a day goes by without some no voters (and even prior yes voters) telling me that we’re too poor to go it alone because of the ‘big black financial hole’, ‘nae oil left’, as poor as Greece stories. The latter a fairy tale that Nicola didn’t deal with properly, very recently (in the last week). Far from it in fact.

    Anyway not much more I can say Still Positive other than I hope my criticisms are being taken as constructive rather than destructive on here.

  382. Petra says:

    Thanks for that Liz. It really p*sses me off when I read about parts of Scotland being sold off. Who do they think they are? Worse still someone was blubbering on in the news about the money being reinvested in Faslane for one. Whit! Everything should be put on hold until Fanny Adams triggers Article 50 at which point I reckon Nicola will relay the economical facts to the Nation and trigger Indyref2. Then a big red no go light should go on to block this kind of carry on. That’s what I’d like to see happen but of course that’s just pie in the sky. God knows what they’ll get up to before we get our Independence. Sometimes I can totally relate to peasants actions during the Russian Revolution. I can see where they were coming from. That’s me on the GCHQ list for sure now, lol.


    Chic ….. Jeane Freeman …. Labour. You’ll notice Chic that anyone with half a brain and a modicum of morals bailed out on them. The brilliant Jeane being one.

  383. G4jeepers says:

    According to Baroness Chayter in the Lords debate at 5.08pm on Oct 10th here

    Scroll down to

    “We understand the Government were caught short, having had no plans for Brexit in their 2015 manifesto—indeed, they were committed to,
    “safeguard British interests in the Single Market”.

    It’s worth reading her full statement for context but I’ve cut the pertinent quote because seeing as how the tories love to gloat about fulfilling manifesto promises I decided to take a look at the manifesto here (downloadable .pdf) on pages 72 & 73 they do indeed promise to “safeguard British interests in the Single Market”

    Question is, because Camoron resigned is the manifesto promise still valid under the new administration and if so how are they going to square that wee circle?

  384. Liz g says:

    Petra @ 2.58
    I think when the history of this is written,in the chapter called,” List’s and There Compilation ” we will be first, group recorded. Well….we better be.

    As to Fort George in a way if the MOD were actually told ” use it or lose it ” it could turn out to be the way to actually ensure jobs there were saved.

  385. yesindyref2 says:

    Something I’ve noticed with a few unionists is that whereas in Indy Ref 1 which they felt sure of winning, they were quite laid back, up for a laugh, reasonable in discussions, now they’re calling assertions “facts”, and making them up as they go along. So I think the answer to those is just reply with provable facts, or point out that an assertion stated as “fact” is an assertion, nothing more. Doddle! They’re rattled.

  386. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Dr Jim,
    had this report saved from 2012. It may be of use to you in your earier request.

  387. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 6.18
    Aye they are very rattled..and not just a few.
    It’s almost all of them.
    But I think that part of that confidence was because they thought England was a great country and if we left they would be left with the best part of the island.
    We would have to be worried the we would regret leaving.
    Also we had to wait and see what if any repercussions they would visit on us.
    Brexit has totally turned that around and they are frightened now of being left,with out us.
    We were supposed to be the ones facing a future ostracised from the rest of the world.
    Had they been fair last time they would have at least felt they had a friend.
    But even the next lot of no voter’s are going to feel betrayed by Westminster.
    Oh boy karmas a bitch.
    So I think we can also use that,always telling them that they cannot seriously expect Scotland to stay and be a part of a system that is heading for self destruct.
    Change the conversation to this is a really stupid plan,do you deny it.Do you really think it’s a good idea.
    And when they say,as they will,”It’s the will of the people” the answer should be,”Not my people” that answer would cause a stir.

  388. Breeks says:

    All these businesses and institutions looking to exit the UK so they retain access to Europe might well have their eyes on Scotland, but until there is definitive evidence Scotland is definitely remaining in the EU, any decision to move here would be premature.
    If their particular circumstance requires decisive action now and cannot wait, if fear Scotland will miss the cut and not feature on their shortlist of suitable sites for relocation.
    If we want these businesses moving here with confidence, we need to get on with this.

  389. Nana says:


    Type 26 Frigate will not begin until April 2017 at the earliest

    Pound value falls back below $1.22 as analysts warn it is acting like an ’emerging market currency’

  390. Nana says:

    Brexit bloody brexit

    For a smooth Brexit, Britain must drop the boorish language and try to understand its neighbours

    Six reasons to be wary of Brexit optimism

    MUST-WATCH: Oxford University professor Ngaire Woods explains trade deals, Brexit and why we must remain part of the European Single Market in less than two minutes.

  391. Nana says:

    Broadcasters Should Report Next Scottish Independence Referendum Fairly

    Commentary: What the U.S. should learn from Britain’s dying navy

  392. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Dr Jim, that link above went to the RUSI site where the report was linked from, but heres the direct link to it. I should add that anyone else interested in Defence for Scot should have a look and bookmark it. Always useful to refer back to when Yoons are making facts up…

  393. Petra says:

    @ Alan at 6:47am …..’Defence.’

    Thanks for that Alan. It’s just amazing what some people have got ‘tucked away’. Oh and thanks for the article that you posted recently about Libya too. Really concise and informative.

  394. Liz g says:

    Nana @ 7.28
    Good Grief Nana,that last link about the Navy.
    I think the Americans just let Argentina know Britain could no longer defend the Falklands.
    They could potentially be getting flung out of everywhere.

  395. silver19 says:

    Looks like that Indyref2 is on as Downing Street has said forget it to special EU deal for Scotland :-

  396. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana. Seems that Brexit hasn’t been such a great idea after all, so say MANY experts, and you’d think that Mrs Hard Brexit May would be listening to people such as Ngaire Woods when she points out the basics, the essence of ‘how big is your market’? How big is their market, especially if exports from Scotland aren’t included? Worse still if N Ireland bails out as I read somewhere that they’re the UK’s top exporter, per capita. And if they lose control over pharmaceuticals, as may very well be the case now, what will the London Casino have to offer the World then? Oh I forgot they’ll still have Arms to trade.


    The ‘Proud Scots’ seemingly delighted when the oil price dropped too and at the news that Scotland has a £15 billion deficit. Not too difficult separating the wheat from the chaff in Scotland now. Identifying the rogues in the Nation. You only have to take a close look to see what makes them happy. What actually puts a smile on their face.


    ‘Dying Royal Navy.’ More facts and figures that highlight that we’re surely not Better off Together at all. Typifies how a once proud Nation (for them) …. the Union …. is dying. Just as well the saying ignorance is bliss applies to many Brexiters living in England, as I reckon they’d lose their sanity overnight if they were faced with the truth.

  397. Weechid says:

    I’ve worked with people who voted for this sham of a human being and I live very close to the border with his constituency. I’m drinking bottled water – just in case.

  398. Andrew McLean says:

    Liz g
    Fort George was part of the pacification of the Higlands, along with General wades roads this was paid for by the Westminster government, on instruction from the war office., do the army own the roads? No they were passed to the Scottish office, now Scottish government. But all Whitehall property in England passed on the scraping of the war office department in 1964, to the administration of the ministry of defence. A Whitehall organisation. Not a Westminster one.
    Historic Scotland are charged with maintaining the fort, as would be warranted by the fact that Scotland was and never will be absorbed into England.
    I would argue that all government buildings in Scotland, following the Scotland act, the ownership of crown estate, are the property of the Scottish government, therefore a fortiori, fort George is actually owned by the Scottish government.

  399. Liz g says:

    Allan Mackintosh @ 6.47
    That was a great article you posted.
    A lot of easy to read information,and a lot of commonsense too.
    It certainly answers any questions about defence.
    Thank you.

  400. Breeks says:

    Everybody knows the line from Top Gun where Maverick is accused of an ego writing cheques that his body can’t cash.

    That’s Britain’s naval defence in a nutshell.

    On D-day 1944 the Royal Navy had 900 vessels supporting the invasion, but that was mobilised for war. Yet back in 1938, when the Spanish Civil war was beginning to look like it might have its eye on Gibraltar, the U.K. deployed its combined Home Fleet and Mediterranean Fleet to Gibraltar as a show of strength, and there were 2 aircraft carriers, some very famous battleships, Hood, Royal Oak, Rodney, Nelson, to name less than half. It was a very impressive sight. Altogether a Fleet of over 140 ships assembled.

    Defence isn’t all about numbers however. It’s all about capacity. Ask any surviving veterans of Iraqs Republican Guard from Gulf War 1 whether they rank numerical superiority as relevant.

    The two British aircraft carriers look stupid, utterly stupid when the Royal Navy has neither the support vessels to properly support carrier activity, nor sufficient aircraft to man them operationally. But they do make a kind of sense once you appreciate that after shelving the Harrier and scrapping HMS Illustrious, Britain currently has no capacity for launching aircraft at sea, other than Helicopters. No jets.

    Never mind numbers, if the Royal Navy put to sea in anger, it could not provide itself with conventional air cover. That isn’t a numbers issue, it is a glaring omission and a dangerous lack of capacity. If you like, the Royal Navy can’t operate independently beyond the range of land based air support. It isn’t the carriers Britain needs, it’s the air cover they provide, hence even an understaffed, underequipped, undersupported, aircraft carrier does make strategic sense. You simply put to sea on a wing and a prayer that it never requires to rely on its full capacity. If you think that is a reckless idea, our nuclear subs have been riding that pony for decades.

    Whichever way you cut it, Britain has a historic roll in policing the High Seas which it simply cannot afford to maintain. And that’s where I think the problem gets interesting, because Scotland and Royal Navy have a lot in common, suffering a shrinking economy and desperately trying to maintain a benchmark capacity while it has one hand tied behind its back by the rampant greed of the right wing new-liberals. What a foreign invader cannot destroy, the Tories will destroy through decades of pernicious underinvestment, asset stripping and cost cutting.

    There is an extent to which I sympathise with the UK. In strategic terms having “reach” to your military is a definite advantage. Just imagine the game changer of Muslim extremists having access to our skies… Not just the offensive capacity, but the intelligence gathering and “gun boat diplomacy” options. If the UK wants to do its bit, then yeah, I can see that logic, even if I’m not altogether comfortable with it. “We sleep sound in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would harm us”. (Kipling).

    However, that pragmatic acceptance of far reaching military capacity begins to taste increasingly bitter when the emphasis moves away from diligent peacekeeping and keeping us safe, and becomes a dangerous interference in Middle Eastern politics and regime changes. I keep repeating the fact I am not an anti-Semite, however when we have a far reaching military capacity under the influence and control of the US and Westminster, where both governments and their shadow opposition seem unduly influenced by pro Zionist lobbying and influence, quite suddenly I find myself to be much less concerned about the decline currently being suffered in British Military capacity.

    I am less concerned about the reach and capacity of the Fleet, but grow more curious and concerned about the reach and capacity of the Friends of Israel inside U.K. And U.S. Politics. That is not anti-Jewish sentiment, I would feel just as anxious were it to be a faction of very wealthy Dutch tulip growers who had such frequent and unfettered access to senior levels of a cash strapped government. It is simply inappropriate.

    While I in no way connect this question on military might with Scottish independence, comparing the Royal Navy to a Scottish defence Fleet is not really a fair comparison. The difference is not a matter of counting ships and paying for them, it’s about the capacity you want those ships to shoulder. Am I going all Unionist on the matter? Not at all. Quite the reverse. It seems very dangerous to expect any one Nation to beggar itself doing to much on its own when what is needed is a genuinely impartial and multilateral international peacekeeping force.

    Here’s a thought, how about a UN Fleet with US, UK, Russian, Chinese, French ships serving side by side protecting the interests of permanent members of the UN Security Council? Then we’d have some very rough men indeed standing over us, but the world might just be a safer place because of it.

  401. Robert Kerr says:

    O/T perhaps,

    Some background for what it’s worth.

    Tory is a corruption of the Irish Gaelic “toraidhe” outlay or highwayman.

    The Urban dictionary gives

    Means faeces, jobby, poo,shit,crap. Used throughout Scotland.
    I desperately need a tolly.

    I am going to do a tolly in your shoes if you dont shut up!
    #poop #shit #crap #poo #jobby #dung #faeces”


    The Tola is a measure of weight used in India, You can buy tola bullion bars from say

    Tola Bars were traditionally supplied with round edges for smuggling in body cavities before metal detectors and x-ray screening and the word has passed into Scottish usage as toly or tolly. A linguistic legacy of the Raj as is “bint” for woman.

  402. Petra says:

    @ Silver19 at 8:51am …’Forget EU deal for Scotland.’

    I notice it’s a ‘source said’ story Silver that’s probably just pre- empting what everyone knows is going to happen anyway. Nothing official yet.

    What a do find interesting is the one and only post in the comments section which is in line with my ‘ignorance is bliss’ comment earlier: “The wee roaster Lego Heid and her Government of numpty ministers cannot control the powers they have at the moment as Scotlands public services crumble around their ears.” This one sounds like a Scot right enough: A Sun reader!

  403. galamcennalath says:

    New York Times

    “Brexit May Hurt Britain Where It Thrives: Science and Research”

    … this is going to be particularly true of Scotland. I personally heard of one biotech company where half the staff are from elsewhere in the EU.

  404. Liz g says:

    Andrew McLean @ 9.12
    Thanks for that information,I would argue too that the Fort is the property of the Scottish Government/people.

    I am just mindful of the reports that The MOD are selling off property they “own” in prime locations in London to developer’s.
    This is being reported as a good thing for the army and not a word about how they got ownership of the property in the first place.
    Next thing they find Fort George too expensive to maintain.

    We already know that a lot of people like to park money in Scotland so I am concerned that they would at least try to stick it on the market.
    And I don’t think it would appear on right move so I think it is worth keeping an eye on.
    Also hoping you are too ?
    I am aware that being a part of Historic Scotland’s remit offers some protection, I am just not sure how much.

  405. heedtracker says:

    Ken Loach in the Graun,

    “The BBC is very aware of its role in shaping people’s consciousness; this is the story you should hear about, these are the people worth listening to. It’s manipulative and deeply political.”

    In response to the comments, a BBC spokeswoman said: “BBC News is independent and adheres to clear published editorial guidelines including on impartiality. The BBC is consistently rated the most trusted and accurate news provider by the majority of people in the UK.”

    Tory BBC’s “independent and adheres to clear published editorial guidelines including on impartiality” with Nic Sturgeon the escaped gorilla on BBC UK tv news and John Swinney as Adolf Hitler on BBC Scotland tv news.

  406. Liz g says:

    Petra @ 9.31
    The name of the poster you mentioned is….weareaperson.
    Am Sayin nuthin.
    Mainly because I think that tells us all we need to know!

  407. Valerie says:

    I love the way the historic drop in value of Sterling is being spun as a good thing. This from one of Nanas links.

    “To put this month’s fall into context, the pound is weaker against the majority of emerging market currencies, including the resurgent Mexican peso and the Malaysian ringgit,” she said.”

    In addition, yesterday, Moody’s said they were removing the UKs rating from ‘stable’ to ‘negative’.

    Lord Darling ‘Scotland can’t use the £’

    Alex Salmond ‘Lol’

  408. Andrew McLean says:

    A Scot? Sun reader? Surely some mistake. The Syrian brothers and sisters just arrived and trying to make a home here have more Scottishness in their little fingers than that slevering pile of shite, Scottish never.

  409. Glamaig says:


    It might soon be a case of

    Darling: please use the pound

    Salmond: whats it worth to you?

  410. Ruby says:

    Breeks says:
    18 October, 2016 at 7:00 am

    All these businesses and institutions looking to exit the UK so they retain access to Europe might well have their eyes on Scotland, but until there is definitive evidence Scotland is definitely remaining in the EU, any decision to move here would be premature.
    If their particular circumstance requires decisive action now and cannot wait, if fear Scotland will miss the cut and not feature on their shortlist of suitable sites for relocation.
    If we want these businesses moving here with confidence, we need to get on with this.

    Ruby replies

    If only NO voters hadn’t been told that voting NO meant retaining EU membership.

  411. Glamaig says:

    Petra says:
    18 October, 2016 at 9:31 am
    @ Silver19 at 8:51am …’Forget EU deal for Scotland.’

    We know by now that concessions will only come when they think theyre about to lose. Vow2 coming up, 1 week before indyref2 ‘yes of course you can stay in UK and single market’.

  412. Ruby says:

    No EU deal for Scotland!

    EU deal for Nissan & EU deal for the City of London being paid for by the taxpayer.

    UK looks at paying billions into EU budget after Brexit

    Britain would continue to pay billions of pounds into the EU budget after Brexit to maintain cherished single-market access for the City of London and other sectors under plans being discussed by Theresa May’s cabinet. FT’

    Will there be an EU deal for Gibraltar?

  413. Valerie says:

    Sterling is so poor now, they are threatening it won’t be classed as a reserve currency. Jeez!

    How is this for timing? Read in a Canadian piece, that Carney is coming to the end of his self imposed 5 year contract. The gov’t offered him 8 years, and he insisted on 5. The Canadians seem to hold him in high regard. I quite like him for insisting that the politicians set policy, and but out then.

    He insists they won’t work to politicians pulling them around.

    I bet he would like Scotland.

  414. Hamish100 says:

    Be Warned

    The Reith Lectures on Radio 4

    Kwame Anthony Appiah (English Born of Ghananian father English mother) now described as American/British/Ghanian.

    Sue Lawley to laughter from an invited audience at LSE tells listeners that Mr Appiah is going to Glasgow to tell Scots that National Identity isn’t important.

    Yir North Brits get used to it. Set up by the Britisher state broadcaster. Of course. Have you a ticket? Bet a pretendy professor or two from Glasgow Uni (maybe even an MSP) a guy form Strathclyde Uni who has a wee sideline business of appearing on the BBC telling the snp they have problems.

  415. Andrew McLean says:

    Liz g 9:41
    Yes the ministry of defence has had been criticised for selling off property on the cheap, but since they are using the funds to plug the gap in the defence budget, and that would have to be accounted for, by Whitehall to Westminster.

    The ownership of the mod property in Scotland, not historic, can be argued as belonging to Whitehall. For instance Edinburgh castle was a military base, owned by Whitehall until 1999, it also is maintained by historic Scotland, as is Stirling Castle but as historical buildings they become under the jurisdiction of the Scottish government. Fort George is a historic monument.

  416. Macart says:

    Heh. The metro set are going into overdrive insisting the FM is bluffing, has no hand to bargain with, basically should get back in the shortbread tin and take her brexit cereal.

    They’re either congenital idiots, deluded or wilfully misleading their readerships. They certainly appear blind to what is actually going on right in front of their eyes.

    May cannot afford to lose Scotland, or rather our tax base and abundant natural resources, yet neither can she be seen to antagonise Scotland’s electorate. Cue unleashing the meeja attack dogs and minor politicians in a cackhanded attempt to undermine the SGs position.

    Bestest buds, mutual respect, ‘family’ of nations, lead from the front… better together.

    You can feel the love and sincerity pouring out of Downing street as they treat the Scottish electorate like morons and insult their intelligence on a daily basis.

    This is a perfectly simple proposition for the UK government. Prove you mean what you say. Prove you value the votes and opinions of the Scottish electorate. All of our electorate, including those who willingly gave you their vote and their trust two years ago. Keep your promises, your pledges, your assurances. Basically, do what you said you would. This is UK gov’s opportunity to repay that trust.

    So far over the past two years… not a great track record.

    If the UK government can’t or won’t protect the interests of ALL Scotland’s electorate, happily we have a government to hand who can.

  417. heedtracker says:

    Sue Lawley to laughter from an invited audience at LSE tells listeners that Mr Appiah is going to Glasgow to tell Scots that National Identity isn’t important.

    “Not everyone accepts that you have to be a man or a woman; or that you can’t be both an Englishman and a Scot. You can claim to be of no religion or gender or race or nation. Perhaps, in each case, someone will believe you. And that is one reason why the way we often talk about these identities can be misleading.”

    Kwame Anthony Appiah
    Born in London, raised in Ghana, educated at Cambridge in philosophy. Teach at NYU. Write mostly about ethics and African and African American Studies.

    New York/Princeton

    Wonder if the Prof lectures Americans on their identity?

  418. Proud Cybernat says:

    Cans and Can’ts…

  419. Andrew McLean says:

    Anyway it’s late on the post so looking back at my earlier point about not trusting the far left. If you’re interested in how the left has been infiltrated, influenced, controlled even, look at the leaflets passed out in 2014, I had to use this blog to find in, caution it contains nuts!

  420. Fred says:

    Anent, Wade & Caulfield’s military roads, most are tarred & in daily use, maintained by the local authorities. The sections which have escaped modernisation, like that over the Corrieyairack, come under the aegis of Historic Scotland & the Highland Region, who maintain them.

    For what this is worth, an idea to keep your EU passport folks!

  421. Edward says:

    Caught David Coburn being interviewed on GMS this morning
    with the possibility that he will stand for leadership of UKIP

    It was wall to wall comedy gold

    Like listening to a top comedian and your laughing at the jokes so much that you miss some of the jokes

    One classic was when Coburn spouted that sovereignty returned to Westminster means that if you don’t like an MP, you can vote them out every 5 years, the irony is Coburn is an MEP that if you don’t like him, can be voted out every five years (strangely Gary Robertson didn’t pick up on that, mind you it was just a constant stream of Coburn stupidity)

  422. Liz g says:

    Andrew McLean @ 10.14
    So you’re saying that the MOD absolutely cannot try to sell the Fort.
    I am certainly relieved to hear it.
    I knew they couldn’t attempt to sell Edinburgh or Stirling,as even if they did own it people would notice and care.
    But I have spoken to other Scot’s who have never even heard of Fort George,never mind it’s Historic value.
    So I was worried that there might be a chance it could be quietly sold of,and all we would find out was how the MOD has been pragmatic in the national interest.
    Are you able to say how you know this,or where I could find out?
    It’s ok if you cannot, I am going to shut up about it now anyway. Before I get into trouble.

  423. Free Scotland says:

    Andrew Neil: “Viewers will have noticed that you haven’t really answered my question, but let’s move to another one …”

    And some people still pay the TV licence!!!!!! And Mundell still has a job!!!!!!!

  424. manandboy says:

    With Brexit and the current batch of extremist politicians in Government at Westminster, Scotland is in very real peril. Unless more of the Scottish electorate soon wake up to that fact, then Scotland may well become lost as a country and a nation.

    The future remains very uncertain, but there are signs that in the very near future, the Act of Union could become a death sentence for Scotland.

  425. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    The metro set are going into overdrive insisting the FM is bluffing

    They seem to miss the obvious logic, or maybe they do see the reality and are trying to deflect from it……

    FM is asking for a fair and appropriate deal with the UK, from a Scottish perspective. The plan necessitates much more power being devolved to Holyrood. There is not a hope in Hell Scotland will get more powers and anything special in Brexit. IndyRef2 will folllow.

    The belief that the FM is bluffing implies that if the bluff is faced down, we will indeed get back in our tin. The FM has a manifesto mandate, it is central party policy, Holyrood can pass the legislation, this may be the best opportunity likely to ever come together … of course Indyref2 will follow.

  426. Macart says:

    I’ve been reticent to say it myself (for fear of jinxing it), but its hard to see any other outcome at this point. I simply can’t see May fulfilling those pledges and there isn’t a hope in hell of Westminster ratifying them even if she said she would.

    It does appear that indyref2 isn’t just highly probable at this point, but an absolute necessity in order to avoid the economic chaos Brexit will visit across these islands.

  427. Col says:

    Manandboy, Scotland will end as mythical as Atlantis is we can’t focus the minds of enough people in time. We have to educate people to what happened the last time Thatchers party were in power for so long and how they used our resources in the wrong way.

    I often wonder if people realize just how badly the uk is governed. I certainly like to tell folk. Was it not just this year papers released after 30 years revealed that when peak oil was flowing and billions were going straight into the treasury they were cutting the Scottish budget whilst all others were going up by ten percent.

    If that isn’t proof that this country has been deliberately kept poor then I don’t know what is.

    We need hard hitting folk who tell it like it is when dealing with the media which I seem to hear a lot of folk saying these days. Are you listening SNP?

  428. Liz g says:

    Galamcennalath @ 10.54
    I had thought,what Nicola was doing was either giving Westminster the opportunity to hand over more power’s now with out going to a ballot,aka Devo Max.
    Or making sure Devo Max doesn’t get on to the ballot paper.
    As we can’t exactly go to a vote offering the powers that the denial of those power’s triggered in the first place.

    I think that’s why they (SNP) are quite happy to say they won’t need to go to a referendum if you hand over the powers now.
    I also think that is why the powers that they want are to be published,but published as necessary for EU membership.

    If that is indeed the case and May’s fail safe is Devo
    Max,that would explain why the MSM are trying not to take Nicola seriously,because then the proposals don’t need to be looked at so they are forgotten about at the referendum.
    Opening the door to Devo Max on the ballot.

    Jeezzo won’t it be nice to have a government you don’t have to be That suspicious of!!!

  429. Fred says:

    The Glenelg Barracks at the western terminus of Wade’s Military Road was in a terrible state last time I was there, with access denied due to falling masonry. Surely a suitable subject for re-roofing & adapting. The Ruthven Barracks at Kingussie, burned in 1746, is stable & visitable but why a ruin?

    The Garvamore Barracks (Kingshouse) on the Corrieyairack Road, between Fort Augustus & Ruthven Barracks, has been restored at some expense by the owners British Alcan who sadly haven’t found a use for it. This estate, along with Alcan’s Lochaber estates, are currently the subject of community buy-out negotiations, the results of which should be known shortly.

  430. Fred says:

    Folks the missing link for keeping your EU passport scheme,

  431. galamcennalath says:

    Liz g says:

    … making sure Devo Max doesn’t get on to the ballot paper. As we can’t exactly go to a vote offering the powers that the denial of those power’s triggered in the first place.

    Excellent point. I hadn’t looked at it that way. I hadn’t quite seen the FM’s requirements/offer as DevoMax, but it’s bound to be. Yes.

    We need DevoMax dead, a stake through its heart, burnt and buried! I would say that has already been done, but you are right, May could try a Vow2 and scupper IndyRef2.

    If the FM effectively says DevoMax now, as an integral part of Brexit, is the price of avoiding Indyref2 – the May rejects that – Vow2, even on the ballot, is not on.

    My optimism climbs another rung 🙂

  432. heedtracker says:

    Pound crash, inflation rockets, its all good, no, great news say BBC 24 tv news. Spectacular pro tory Brexit stuff from all the usual sources.

  433. K1 says:

    Precisely Liz, that’s why they are fools tae think the FM is bluffing and that’s why Angus can so clearly commit to taking independence ‘off the table’ ‘if’ May plays ball. Which she won’t…there’ll be no wee sneeky vowster shyster sleight of hand in indyref2.

    Our gov is playing a blinder…pincer manoeuvre, May’s damned if she does damned if she doesn’t…ergo ‘the ball’s in her court’ oft repeated over the conference weekend.

  434. cirsium says:

    @scottieDog, 11.51

    Thanks for the link. EEA – sounds good to me.

  435. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Nice wee piece in today’s Guardian, which will surely get the Little Englanders going:

  436. galamcennalath says:

    @Liz g

    DevoMax with a continuing relationship with the EU and ESM access, would be a reasonable consolation price.

    However, let’s hope May doesn’t bite! I’m sure she wouldn’t.

    What worries me about it would be it might come with conditions which would actually take Indy off the table for a generation, if not permanently. New Act of Union etc etc..

  437. K1 says:

    Socrates, that link archived:

  438. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…which would actually take Indy off the table for a generation, if not permanently.”

    I don’t think the SG can bind future SGs in that way and certainly not the sovereign people of Scotland. A bit like saying, “We’re getting married and we’ll stay married forever no matter how shitty I treat you.”

  439. K1 says:

    True Gala but genuinely don’t think SG ‘could’ or would tie future Scottish Gov’s hands constitutionally by re fashioning Treaty without a referendum on any new treaty between us?

    Like you, I ddon’t believe May will ‘bite’…the essence of the SG’s proposals is what Lizg has outlined: devo max cannot be on the ref question itself if they have already refused and more importantly it cannot be used as a last minute panic fall back when they see they are losing.

  440. Dan Huil says:

    Any Vow2 from westminster will not be believed because we already have the most wonderfully cuddily fluffily devolved parliament in the whole universe. It simply couldn’t be improved upon!

  441. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…devo max cannot be on the ref question itself if they have already refused and more importantly it cannot be used as a last minute panic fall back when they see they are losing.”

    But this is what WM does; it is how they play the game. Always. They tell us “No. No. No.” And then, when they think they are about to lose they then change their mind (or at least pretend to change their mind with offers of lots of new goodies).

    They will refuse Devo-Max now for the very reason of keeping it as a card up their sleeve when they think they might lose a straight indy ref. Then they pull the rabbit out the hat. AGAIN.

    But will we fall for it AGAIN? And if we do, will WM deliver on the promise?

    I’m getting dizzy…

  442. Glamaig says:

    Nana says:
    18 October, 2016 at 11:41 am
    Interview with Mike Russell

    See when even one or two of those ‘major employers’ start coming out in favour of independence? That’s what will swing it to Yes.

  443. Breastplate says:

    Proud Cybernat, correct.
    There most definitely will be inducements to vote No when push comes to shove, I have absolutely no doubt about it.
    After all, they only have to fool enough people to make a difference.

  444. Andrew McLean says:

    Liz g 10:04
    Yes Liz, I am saying that the MOD absolutely cannot try to sell Fort George, de lege lata, (actually being cheeky bar stewards the probably will try)
    The Scotland Act 1998 allowed for the provision of transfer of Crown estates to the Scottish government, The Historic Environment Act 2014, empowered the Scottish Government to list Historic Properties, Fort George is listed, The Scotland act 2016 amended the 1998 act to give management control over crown land to the Scottish Government. (notwithstanding 90B (6)).
    So how can the effective sitting tenant the MOD (mala fide possessor) sell Fort George? to what end? its a Historic monument, even if they tried who would take on the preservation and upkeep?

  445. Alan Gerrish says:

    cirsium says:
    18 October, 2016 at 12:16 pm
    @scottieDog, 11.51

    Thanks for the link. EEA – sounds good to me.

    Hmmm. Might sound good at first glance, but in my view collapses on closer inspection:

    Scotland is already in the EU, not EEA. If we want to trade with the EU as a member of EEA, we have to adopt most of EU legislation and negotiate the cost of trade deals- in Norway’s case more 90% of what they would pay as a full member, yet without having any voting rights.

    Iceland and Leichtenstein have specific economic reasons for not joining EU which are not comparable or relevant to Scotland’s situation.

    Most importantly: Scotland is not yet independent. Already there are reported moves by the EU to ensure the continuation of Scotland’s membership and ease the process of developing trade relationships and full membership. No discussions can take place pre-independence with EEA, so on gaining independence we would start life off with NO concluded trade deals with anyone. Nice one – not!

    So let’s sort out Independece first and not allow ourelves to be sidetracked by the views of “experts” whose judgement is formed by an incomplete understanding of the real issues here in Scotland. Indeed, the cynic in me might suspect a whiff of “divide and conquer” in this article. I have no doubts that continued membership of the EU will support and facilitate our emergence as an independent country in the shortest possible timescale and that to me is the most important issue of all.

  446. Breastplate says:

    The SG have already pretty much told us through Alex Salmond speaking in the Irish Times that they won’t tie the hands of anyone subsequently holding power in Scotland.

    Or as Parnell put it quite explicitly at the end of that address in the Cork Opera House all of these years ago: “We shall not do anything to hinder or prevent better people who may come after us from gaining better things than those for which we now contend.”

  447. North Chiel says:

    Interesting discussion as regards FM tactics etc. on Brexit . If TM
    blanks Scotgov proposals and FM ” requires” section 30 order then condition
    could be that ” Devo max” ( within EU context which must include joint EU& UK citizenship & access to single market etc.) is on ballot paper . However , this then MUST be
    3- question i.e. (1) in U.K. Out of EU (2) ” Devo Max” and (3) independence ( out of U.K. / within EU).The result must be ratified as the most popular outcome of the 3 options, specifically ruling out any ” run off” between say (1)& (2). Crucially the second option must be viewed in the context as not exclusively being an endorsement of remaining in the U.K. ONLY.
    Thus the unionists cannot say that this vote (2) was a vote to remain in the U.K. exclusively. ( Clearly that was option (1) ).
    Of course FM could proceed without section 30 if necessary .

  448. schrodingers cat says:

    the disgusting attitude by the unionist msm wrt the snp and scots in general, is noted by us but doesnt seem to change no supporters minds

    It is the increasingly xenophobic outburts in general which is causing nos to turn to yes.

    we cant win indyref2, discussions about what currency are pointless. the only route to victory is if the unionists lose it. Something they are very capable of doing. The launch of their new flag ship HMS rule brexit britannia is floundering a tad in the turbulent seas of uncertainty in the stock and money market.

    Farage wanted britain out of the eu, no doubt about it, but he desires even more the demise of the eu. people are beginning to realise that bojos claim that everyone will want to trade with britain is hot air. Having the eu trading block, a magnitude 10 x greater than the uks cannot be ignored. Indeed, announcements from canada, oz and norway wrt to uk trade deals, indicating they prefer not to upset the eu, illustrate just how small a fish HMS brexit is in a very large pond. No surprise that the latest eu poll in holland shows a huge swing back in favour of eu membership (68%). Undetered, the new royal Yacht plowed headlong into the foray, only to be holed below the water line. yesterday spain announced that they will veto any eu settlement that doesnt allow gibralta to stay in the eu. Boom, the first attempt to make britain great again… Westminster just lost gibralta.

    Nigel is now looking desparately for help, this boat cant stay afloat unless it gets outside help. the US, french and German elections are the calvary call of trump and le pen he is desparate to hear.

    we now know what the eu and the uk’s negotiating strategies are going to be. EU tariff barriers are now certainty, westminsters only chance of stopping the rats deserting this sinking ship is to pay off the city of london and the car manufacturers. Im not sure they can afford this, or indeed the eu will allow it. It may only be a mitigation tactic to slow the rate of decent. The union will do whatever it can to float their boat, but if it start to flounder, their supporters in scotland will see the yes life raft as their only choice.

    much to play for but much of it beyond our control

  449. heedtracker says:

    Kevin Hague Retweeted
    The Daily Record ?@Daily_Record 5h5 hours ago
    Kevin Hague on Alex Salmond’s breathtaking contempt for the Scottish electorate

    “I’m Not a tory or unionist” Kevrage, gives Salmond the UKOK works in the Daily Record but its interesting how this dude’s not saying anything at all on Brexit economics. If only because he’s a business dude that imports cheap as chips Chinese pet supplies and flogs them in the UK.

    So far Kevrage’s costs have jumped at least 20% as the pound crashes by the day. But that’s all ok, kevrage is British and that’s all that counts, for NOT tory NOT unionist tubthumpers in Scotland today.

  450. Liz g says:

    Galamcennalath @ 12.22 et all
    I don’t think she can bite,and there can’t be membership in the single market either.
    If we export Whisky,Energy,water etc as a member of the EU I would expect that would have to go on to Scotland’s books.

    The minute well mibbi no the exact minute,that the books get open then it will probably be a hop skip and a jump to full Independence.

    Also I don’t think they can afford to have all that revenue removed from their books or it would have a negative impact on any trade deal’s they did.

    Devo Max was always a placebo they never want those books seen.

    I think that’s why the SNP at Westminster is such a problem,because they are not on board like Labour were.

    As for a new act of union I can’t see the SNP signing up to that it does not benift them,and could damage them.

    But if all they have is Devo Max, Westminster and the media will be trying to sell us that..but I as I am sure you don’t need tellin it will never be real Devo Max.
    That’s why I thought Nicola was trying to head it off.

  451. K1 says:

    The difference this time is brexit and all that that entails?

    There is now a vastly wider audience and many new players with a vested interest in seeing Scotland remain in the EU and certainly within the SM. This ‘is’ focusing minds? More and more people who voted No are declaring now that they have changed their position. The arguments against us during indyref1 re the union have been completely holed by their own narrow bigoted nationalism.

    But if as you rightly point out PC ‘we fall for it again’ then we have no one to blame but ourselves. I don’t think we will though, the ground has shifted too far right for the average no voter in Scotland.

    We on Wings are over exposed to a lot of the ‘ultra’ unionist voices and so can feel a bit overwhelmed by what we are up against. We have never been closer, often it can be very dark just before the light bursts through…our FM is the perfect example of how to respond in moments of ‘peril’…and she is rightly lauded for her response after both EU result and Tory conference xenophobic outpourings.

    Let’s keep our focus on what we want. Not on what we don’t want.

  452. Meg merrilees says:

    Reading back on today’s comments it seems that David Coburn’s interviews today on BBC r4 at 7.10am and later on Good Morning Scotland seem to have slipped under the radar. Maybe just as well – the guy is even more of an embarrassment than Mundell.

    How has Scotland ended up with so many totally useless politicians in places of such relative power and exposure? Mundell, Carmichael, Rennie, Kezia, Coburn… staggering
    to think they represent us at so many levels!

    Anyway, at 7am on R4 Coburn said he might consider leading UKIP but by his later BBC Scot interview, that had become, ‘I would do my best as leader!’
    Apparently UKIP is a libertarian party and all it needs is self-discipline.

    Feel reassured, his final statement was that… “UKip will hold a metaphorical cutlass to the small of the Prime Minister’s back to make her walk the plank of Brexit” ! And this man represents us in Europe. Thank God for Alayn Smith.

  453. Breastplate says:

    Liz, you’re spot on about Westminster not wanting Scotland to see the books and in the current climate I believe the FM should be demanding that an army of our accountants have a good rummage through Scotland’s finances.

    Of course, they won’t agree but it will make them look incredibly shifty when our MSPs and MPs question why they’re not allowed to see the figures.

    Regarding Scotland’s deficit (black hole if you’re a unionist). As soon as the media trot this nonsense out our politicians should be quick to point out that this will change IMMEDIATELY on independence.

    That is an undeniable fact.

  454. Tam Jardine says:


    “The FM has a manifesto mandate, it is central party policy, Holyrood can pass the legislation, this may be the best opportunity likely to ever come together … of course Indyref2 will follow.”

    Agreed. I would add that in terms of the historic fight for independence I can think of no better time to become independent that during just such a crisis as we find ourselves. The threat of capital flight or businesses relocating during the first indyref whilst being in many cases I am sure, an idle threat it is impossible to rule out some people moving or companies moving during any period of instability.

    Can anyone seriously imagine any business owner after a yes vote in indyref 2 moving lock stock and barrel OUT of the EU?

    The unionist line will be “why compound the instability” but it is not hard to argue that the greatest time to end the union would be in the middle of a period of great instability, not of our making, when we have the chance to be the toast of the EU if not the world. Where we have the chance to offer a home to businesses fleeing the end of financial passporting.

    What better time to change, if not now?

    Times of great flux present opportunities for those willing to take them. What we are looking at is a chance to be independent in the most favourable circumstances and without the threat of capital flight to the safety of GBP (!) or the threat of relocation outside the EU(!).

    Good luck whoever is trying to sell the vote no for stability angle!!

  455. Petra says:

    Liz I’m on my IPad so can’t link. If you’re still around and have the time key in ‘MoD to sell Fort George.’

    The Scotsman states “MoD sell off large parts of it’s Estates etc, etc.

    MoD to sell Fort George etc, etc.

    120 Military sites in Scotland.

    Scroll down … ‘Fears for the future of Redford and Dreghorn Barracks.’

    I don’t know much about this but it ‘reads’ to me that they own these estates and can do as they like. Will do as they like.

    It was reported on the news last night that the MoD own military sites in Scotland to the equivalent of eight times the land area of Glasgow. If so that begs the question do they ‘own’ the land at Faslane, Coulport, Loch Long etc.

    It would seem not if Alex was ready (5 years) to throw them off it. Then again maybe some negotiation for the land would have gone on in the interim period. This is the type of data that I’d like to see on the SNP site.

  456. DerekM says:

    How can there be a special deal for parts of the UK has anybody asked the EU what they think nope i did not think so.

    Article 50 must be started before any negotiations take place what we are hearing is desperation from a bunch of compulsive liars caught with their pants down desperately looking for a way out of their lies by making up more lies.

    There will be no special deal for London,either the UK government back peddles on brexit or London declares UDI these are the only way they can remain in the single market,if the EU show any weakness what is to stop the rest of the EU nations doing the same.

    Wishful thinking on the part of the UK government who have made a complete clusterfuck of it and will now pay dearly for their attempted sabotage of the EU.

    We Scots have an escape route if we choose to take it.

  457. Liz g says:

    Andrew McLean @ 1.11
    Thanks for that Andrew.. you’re a star.
    Saddo that I am I really worried about that,I had imagined that the same people/companies who buy the large estates in Scotland for tax or whatever reasons could have bought it, now I just need to concentrate on getting that Butcher’s Apron off it.
    If you don’t mind what does de lega lata mean?

  458. Petra says:

    @ Tam …. ‘Best time during this crisis’

    Spot on Tam and that includes having to deal with N Ireland and Gibraltar / Spain.


    O / T

    Some astrologers saying it looks as though we could be Independent before March 2018. Let’s hope they’re right.

  459. Liz g says:

    Petra @ 1.51
    Thanks for that Petra will certainly take a look.
    But just had a conversation with Andrew McLean on here and he’s sayin they can’t sell it cause it’s has National Monument Status,although he did say he wouldn’t put it past them to try.
    Now I am wondering if the MOD by being the MOD has different rules.
    Hey Ho back to being worried

  460. Liz g says:

    Tam Jardine @ 1.50
    Think you’re right Tam.
    It could be said we went for independence in 2014 because we just wanted it,maybe that’s why some didn’t seem to get why.
    This time hopefully they will understand that we actually Need it.
    Nothing like a crisis to focus the mind.

  461. Andrew McLean says:

    Fort George has the same status as Edinburgh Castle. the MOD list the Castle as their asset, Devolution has passed them by.
    Did you know the most secret military establishment in Scotland was not owned by the MOD?

    Petra says: 1:51
    “don’t know much about this but it ‘reads’ to me that they own these estates and can do as they like. Will do as they like.”

    You lost me when you said “It’s in the Scotsman” 🙂
    MOD to sell Edinburgh Castle?

  462. Andrew McLean says:

    Liz G

    according to law of the land pertaining at the time.

  463. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s actually probablyi the real reason the Kuznetsov and support fleet are coming through the Channel rather than around and into the Atlantic that way. The RN are having to divert a frigate and a destroyer to escort it, and shuffle duties through the rest of the fleet.

    The Russians are effectively pointing out that the RN is over-stretched – “running hot” as then First Sea Lord Mark Stanhope put it 3 years ago before being replaced.

    (you are posting comments too fast. Slow down)

  464. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes I checked his timeline in the early hours. He’s a useful fool tool in the Indy armoury. He has followers who lap up his every duff word and blog. Including the media which I almost feel sorry for. Well no, not really.

  465. Petra says:

    I’m lost now Andrew. The article in the Scotsman (and elsewhere) mentions the MoD planning to sell off Fort George not Edinburgh Castle.

    I’ve just been reading through what you have to say on the subject and hope you’re right.

  466. Andrew McLean says:

    I use Edinburgh Castle as a example, the legality of the sale would be the same. If they can sell one they can sell the other.
    the argument “but its the castle is meaningless”, so what? they attest (if you pardon the pun) their ownership. rather than plead to “save Fort George” they would be better informing the MOD of strong resistance to the sale by the rightful owners, the Scottish Government, therefore removing the pecuniary advantage in their decision to close the barracks.

  467. Liz g says:

    Andrew McLean @ 2.40
    I suppose no one will mind if I post more about this cause there’s a new topic up.

    Just wanted your take on the following.

    It still seems to comes down to who owns the Fort.

    Assuming Holyrood or the local council have compulsory purchasing power (this was used in Glasgow for the games,so one of them does,as Westminster weren’t involved) they could not exercise those power’s to purchase Faselane because it’s MOD “property” and defence matters are reserved.
    I think it safe to say that about Faselane,because if that was a route to getting rid of it,CND would have tried it by now.

    So the MOD are potentially operating under different law,which would be the law of the land at the time.

    Therefore if the Scottish Government don’t already own the Fort somehow, theoretically the MOD can claim it as an asset and sell it on with the protected status as only a burden on the building as part of the sale.

    I can’t see how it could be classed as Crown Estate property,because the Crown’s portfolio raise’s revenue so there would have to be a document that either shows rent has been collected or forgiven for it,and that would make ownership clear.
    As I said I am just looking for what you think ?

  468. Liz g says:

    Andrew McLean
    Forgot to say I am pretty sure both the Castles are different because they can be originally traced back to the Scottish Crown and no other Title Deed exists for them.

  469. Andrew McLean says:

    Forget Faselane, its not historic.
    Fort George was relocated in 1747? it was purchased by the Crown i.e. on orders of King George. Crown property in Scotland is managed by the Scottish Ministers. The MOD in their asset list have ignored the various Acts I mentioned.
    You have to go to the abandonment of the Crown office, the war office, now the Crown estate and now the New powers of the Scotland Act.
    The Ministry of Defence cannot own either fort George or the Castle, it didn’t exist when they were built.
    We will have to go back to the articles of the Union of the Crown 1707

    XX. ‘That all heritable Offices, Superiorities, heritable Jurisdictions, Offices for Life, and Jurisdictions for Life, be reserved for the Owners thereof, as Rights of Property, in the same Manner as they are now enjoyed by the Laws of Scotland, notwithstanding this Treaty.
    XXI. ‘That the Rights and Privileges of the Royal Boroughs in Scotland as they are, do remain entire after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof.

    So how on earth can the MOD claim ownership of Edinburgh Castle, but the thing is they do. After centuries of occupation all they had was squatters rights (no such thin in Scots Law), remember I said they were mala fide possessor, claiming a right of ownership they do not have.

    Fort George, Edinburgh Castle are the very definition of Crown Estate, in Scotland.

  470. orri says:

    There are some fairly extensive modern(ish) buildings in Fort George. It’s not beyond reason that they couldn’t be renovated and sold as apartments. There’s also some fairly old bits that might be maintained as places of historical interest.

  471. gus1940 says:

    Re the ownership of Edinburgh Castle is it not the case that it is owned by, managed and maintained by Historic Scotland or whatever the new name is.

    They have spent and continue to spend millions maintaining and improving the fabric – hence the extortionate admission prices.

    If it is owned by The MOD they should be paying HS for what they do.

    Prior to HS taking over admission to The Castle in general was free with payment required only for admission to the Apartmenta and said payment was tiny being measured in pence rather than pounds.

    Incidentally what is the corresponding situation with Stirling Castle?

    The sooner The Saltire flies from Edinburgh Castle flagtower the better. Looking up and seeing The Butcher’s Apron flying is just like our colonial masters giving us 2 fingers.

  472. Liz g says:

    The point of bringing up Faselane was to illustrate my assertion that the MOD was not subject to the same property law’s as everyone else.
    That was the most obvious example I could think of.
    I was going to mention that the right to roam also is not applicable to the MOD ,but thought that it wouldn’t be as clear because that’s about Land not property.

  473. Andrew McLean says:

    Stirling Castle on the list as MOD from the war office days.

    You agree to sell any historic monument is nuts.
    Windsor Castle is owned by the Crown, could you imagine our Liz allowing that to be sold? or the MOD saying they own it?

    As for conversion after sale Orri, you tried to convert a grade 1 listed building, the MOD might get away with it, but Joe Blogs builders, no chance!

  474. Liz g says:

    Gus 1949 @ 4.29
    Historic Scotland own very few properties they just manage them.
    To what extent depends on the property itself.
    They try to develop a property to generate fund’s to help with the repair and maintenance.
    And yes they do look after Stirling.
    They are a part of the tourism industry and so therefore I like to support them,as tourism is important for us.

    Andrew McLean @ 5.19
    While this Liz would quite happily sell Windsor,I am sure you will agree everyone understands that we shouldn’t sell our Castles.
    A good number of Scot’s probably wouldn’t be concerned about a report that an old Fort of the armies was being sold off cause they wanted more modern accommodation.

    Hell it would probably only take a Headline sayin Nicola has ear marked the Fort for a Tribe of Apaches Trump is picking on and there would be an outcry to sell it to poundland.

    So while I don’t think they could sell any Castles the Fort’s a different matter.

  475. Undeadshaun says:


    Andrew McLean

    Fort George may have same status as Edinburgh Castle…

  476. Rock says:

    Liz g,

    “Rock @ 7.34
    Angus Gother is right about it being May who appointed the Secretary of State for Scotland and they don’t have to be an MP.”

    Did I say that May did not appoint him?

    Did I say that he had to be an MP?

  477. Rock says:

    Angus Gother,


    “I think that was when I went off the idea of splitting my vote in 2016, as it was clear that the Green leadership hadn’t taken the full idea seriously. You may recall that was for Greens to vote SNP in 2015, and in return SNP supporters would vote Green on the list in 2016.
    I now regard all forms of tactical voting to be dishonest.
    We need serious reform of the voting system if we want to encourage decent turnouts and accommodate voters who don’t like the options presented to them.”

    I don’t trust the Greens at all. They are today what the Lib Dems were yesterday. Political opportunists.

    Until after independence, we need to keep on voting SNP even if it is a “wasted” vote. The SNP vote must remain high and hopefully more than 50%.

  478. yesindyref2 says:

    Great stuff. So SNP supporters don’t vote Green which leaves Con / Lab / LibDem councillors in place where the Greens could push them out.

    And the Greens don’t vote SNP so we get LESS SNP councillors all over Scotland and lose control over the 2 councils the SNP actually control.

    Yup. The Unionists win. Splendid idea.

    Once again, this is STV – Single Transferrable Vote, not the Holyrood AMS-PR. The 2nd preference is not looked at until the 1st preference is either elected or eliminated.

    Then the 3rd preference is not looked until both the 1st and 2nd preferences have either been elected or eliminated.

    Then the 4th preference isn’t even looked at until the 1st, 2nd and 3rd preferences have ALL been elected or eliminated, then …

    So using later preferences after putting your own party’s candidates 1st, 2nd, 3rd … CAN DO NO HARM AT ALL. Only good.

  479. K1 says:

    Okay so say for example there are 2SNP, 1 Lab, I Con, I Rise, 1 Lidem, 1 Ukip on my ballot. Would I place preference 1 then 2 SNP then 3 Rise then are you saying I should fill in 4, 5 6 and 7th preferences wi the unionist parties too? I thought the point was to not to give ‘any’ unionist a preference?

  480. orri says:

    I, personally, would be inclined to vote,
    1 SNP
    2 SNP
    3 Rise
    4 Labour
    5 Conservative
    6 Lib Dem

    Because as much as I loathe 4-6 I fucking hate UKIP.

  481. yesindyref2 says:

    I’d put
    1 SNP
    2 SNP
    3 Ind (he’s a YESser and I know him vaguely, and he only just lost out last time – because of blanks from SNP voters for the 1st and 2nd SNP)
    4 Green if any
    5 RISE if any
    6 Another Ind if any
    7 LibDem if any
    8 Tory
    9 Blank instead of Alex Gallagher

  482. Graham King says:

    Mundell’s underlying bias came out into the open in his last few sentences of that video. He repeatedly dissed Scotland’s democratically-elected MPs as ‘opportunistic’ and impugned there integrity, asserting that they vote as they do so as to provoke outrage in England. In this, he shkws contempt too for the Scottish electorate. By what contortion of language can he be called ‘Secretary of State for Scotland’? He is clearly AGAINST Scotland!

  483. K1 says:

    Thanks guys ref preference on ballot.

  484. Hamish100 says:

    Mundell on Indy ref 2 on bbc scotlandshire. The First Minister she stick to her day job. I thought she was. Success yesterday against the tory Scottish whisky association opposition to the Scots parliament over “minimum pricing” to assist with other methods in reducing Scotlands reliance on cheap alchohol.
    Mundell she stick to his day job. Isn’t it supposed to represent the wishes of ALL of the Scottish people? Silly me. The sole tory MP is to do his mistresses bidding. I suppose he is doing his job but could the tories for 1 day in the week stop talking about indyref2 and do ither work.

    BBC radio — the “expert” Mick Keaton from Aberdeen — no soft borders, no soft option. Independence will be more difficult — what about the £? what about the “crash” in oil?
    Now Ms Jardine ex BBC defeated by Alex Salmond in the GE is on to agree with Keating. Hoorah for Pat Kane

  485. evil cybernat says:

    Hamish100 says:
    16 October, 2016 at 4:25 pm
    He is Englands man in Scotland.” Dae as yir telt, plebs”

    A simple poster. Would Mundell understand the bottom bit?
    always thought of him as a top

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