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Bonfire of the ironies

Posted on September 27, 2020 by

Some days it’s not even worth trying to get your jaw off the floor.

Yeah, THAT Neil Mackay.

The same one who writes an provocative and divisive article every few months bitterly attacking all the elements of the Yes movement that he doesn’t like:

And also, yes, it’s THIS Kezia Dugdale:

You know, the one who smeared a journalist and member of the public with disgusting and untrue attacks which FOUR judges ruled to be unequivocally false, defamatory and injurious but has yet to apologise for or retract them.

We shall raise a weary eyebrow and say no more.

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  1. 27 09 20 14:56

    Bonfire of the ironies | speymouth

157 to “Bonfire of the ironies”

  1. Sharny Dubs

    Words fail

  2. kapelmeister

    “Call me a crazy old-fashioned fop if you wish. ..”

    OK. You’re Bore Brummell.

  3. Johnny Martin

    “Don’t do as I do, do as I say you plebby oik!”

  4. deerhill

    Ah, so it is the Gove strategy they are going to use!

    When the drive(?) for independence that the top brss of the SNP are going to do, any day now, goes phut, it will be those cybernats fault. No-one else to blame of course.

    Aye right!

  5. Grouse Beater

    Short-term editor, Neil Mackay and the SNP hierarchy refer to members of the public, voters, who happen to use the Internet as a means of communicating ideas and expressing dissent.

    Calling them ‘cybernats’ saves doing any thinking and reduces individuals to a sub-sect of society. In other words, Mackay and the SNP do the work of the unionist press.

  6. Iain More

    I guess wanting a definite date for the next Indy Referendum makes me Creepy and Vile. I guess wanting a commitment from the SNP towards Scottish Indy makes me Weird, Snarling, Vicious and Poisonous. I am going to curl up and hide in a dark room again.

    I don’t believe for a second he is a Yes Voter.

  7. Dave Somerville

    “…Cybernats, an online frindge of the Yes Movement…”


    I’m just an ordinary Scottish citizen who wants to see his country become an independent nation.

    It’s the leader of the Independence Movenent in Scotland who is back tracking on her side of the deal who is causing the problems within the Movement.

    She is a fraud and should be de-throned ASAP.

    For the sake of independence, Sturgeon should resign within the next few months.

    Let us go into next year’s Hollyrood election with a new leader, you with new ideas and new visions for an independent Scotland.

    Will somebody please step forward take up the challenge of kicking out this evil little fraudster Sturgeon?

  8. Republicofscotland

    Yes there seems to be a wider attack on online supporters of Scottish independence at the moment. Possibly aimed at those who don’t quite agree with the SNP’s hierarchy’s agenda.

    Of course those online that support Scottish independence, are the public too, and have no real other recourse to show their displeasure at policies that the SNP are pushing ahead of Scottish independence, policies we did not vote them in for, so in reality it is us the online voters who put Sturgeon where she is today, that are correct to complain about the veering off course on independence, for deeply unpopular policies to take its place.

  9. MaggieC

    Grouse Beater @ 1.13 pm ,

    “ Short-term editor, Neil Mackay and the SNP hierarchy refer to members of the public, voters, who happen to use the Internet as a means of communicating ideas and expressing dissent. “

    Very well said and that’s what they don’t like as “ ordinary “ folk have a voice and don’t have to read the rubbish written in the MSM by so called * journalists * and I use that term very loosely .

    Just to say to you here that I read your own blog posts and enjoy every one of them .

  10. Bob Mack

    Power is an exclusive club. You normally only hear what folk think you want of would prefer to hear. As such it leaves you out of touch with what most folk really think.

    Life consists of sycophants telling you now good you are and how to be even more popular. I think this has happened to the SNP hierarchy.

    The common man is just that.___common. Not to be mixed up with those who whisper in your ear about your special qualities.

    I know who I trust. Such a shame.

  11. MaggieC

    Rev Stuart Campbell

    “ Some days it’s not even worth trying to get your jaw off the floor.”

    Some days it’s not even worth reading their rubbish , LOL .

  12. Ian Brotherhood

    Seems a good time to revisit this one, from WOS, May 2013.

    I was reminded of it via this piece – please note the infamous Scotsman cartoon (May 2nd 2013) depicting cybernats as sub-human beasts (that cartoon is based on a famous painting depicting an atrocity of some kind but I can’t remember what it is – anyone?)

  13. WhoRattledYourCage

    The ‘temerity’to be BAME or a woman, eh? Wee Nic REALLY hates the white male working class, eh? Victim-mentality, anti-white racist apparatchik misandrist. Oh the irony. The quicker the sneeringly self-righteous, self-styled PC Queen of Scotland (TM) joins her husband in a vote of no confidence the better. Joanna Cherry or bust.

  14. Mist001

    I left all the independence groups on Facebook because the abuse I took for disagreeing with their views or pointing out obvious problems was ridiculous. The people ARE vile, vicious, thick and just downright nasty and I made a point of telling them the damage that they were doing to the independence movement.

    So as far as I’m concerned, I agree completely with the SNP ‘top brass’ and Neil Mackay about their views on the cybernats.

    I have to say too, that since I stopped subscribing to these independence Facebook pages, my life has been so much more relaxed.

  15. Johnny Martin

    Iain More:

    Exactly, “why won’t you vile idiots let us keep conning you? How DARE you be savvy enough to want a concrete plan and be able to spot flaws in the one we are pushing? Give us your vote, oik!”

  16. Frank

    Does NS support Rhiannon Spier when she says,”For me its always been about devolution, self determination and meaningful local democracy”?
    If so I wish she had told us sooner.

  17. WhoRattledYourCage

    And I don’t remember Sturgeon defending female SNP MSPs when the sexual minority swarmtroopers were attacking them online. Just ask Joanna Cherry or Joan MacAlpine. What a fucking hypocrite.

    Plenty of women don’t like her sexual minority policies either, and she totally disregards them. God, but I CANNOT STAND this horrible woman. Seems like the chickens-with-dicks are starting to come home to roost now, though. Fingers crossed.

  18. katherine hamilton

    Ach we know who they really mean. There’s only one bunch of evil cybernats they’re talking about. Us and the Wrecker-in- Chief himself.
    They just haven’t the guts to come out and say it. Don’t they know the size of this place? When they ask for money, and they will, calculate what you would give them and send it to Wings or your favourite charity.

  19. WhoRattledYourCage

    ‘Cybernats.’That’s right up there with ‘seps’and ‘separatists’and ‘Bono’ in the list of words I hate.

  20. MaggieC

    Whorattledyourcage @ 2.07 pm ,

    This was an excellent comment last night on the previous post from LeggyPeggy @ 12. 37am , re Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine

  21. CameronB Brodie

    Remember, I’m not stroking my ego in public, I’m rising to the occasion. 🙂

    I’m also sharing insight into the scientific and legal principles of ethical government. As you do. 😉

    Quarterly Journal of Speech, Volume 91, 2005 – Issue 1
    Contesting Definitional Authority in the Collective


    The field of rhetoric has generated studies of definitional disputes and of the relationship between definition and power. Informed by the idea of collective definition created over time, these studies raise an important theoretical-practical question about definition and contestation that may be approached through a concept of authority.

    Etymologically, authority precedes or transcends power and is rooted in the twin poles of creativity and reason. Accordingly, this essay proposes a rhetorical manner of contesting definitional authority that performs immanent critique. The manner is warranted by analysis of a 1971 essay that challenged psychiatry’s authority to define “homosexuality.”

    Definitional Authority, Performative Speech, Rhetoric, Intersubjectivity, Immanent Critique

  22. CameronB Brodie

    What is “Immanent Critique”?

    Immanent Critiques in International Relations

    How do the concepts of Critical Theory and Marxism apply to International Relations? Describe the concept of immanent critique and how it relates to understanding the organization of the state, civil society, production, and International Relations.

  23. Breastplate

    “Damage to the Yes Movement..”
    The Yes Movement is in rude fucking health and we would find out by how much if we ever get round to having a referendum.

    People disagreeing with each other within the Yes Movement doesn’t mean they have abandoned the idea of independence.

  24. CameronB Brodie

    The science denying totalitarians within the party have undermined our momentum, but they will never defeat the principles of justice and the human need for self-determination.

    Paradigm Found? Immanent Critique to Tackle
    Interdisciplinarity and Normativity in Science
    for Sustainable Development

  25. SilverDarling

    So done with Mackay and his bunch of mealy mouthed hypocrites all happy to sit writing their holier than thou guff for the approval of each other.

    This man was gifted the editorship of a well established and sometimes brave newspaper and he destroyed it. Not only that we saw how he destroyed as he wasn’t smart enough to be subtle. He knows that and he cannot forgive us for seeing through him. Everything he does is designed to say to his soft No pals ‘I’m not like them, really’. Pearl clutching Bella-type pseuds the lot of them. Scunnered with the lot of them.

    Ruth Wishart called him out. He’s probably muted her.

  26. Betsy

    It’s grimly, hilarious. They’ve spent the last few years dismissively sneering at people on their own side in the belief they can shame them in to shutting up and going along with their views.

    For anyone whoever spent any time around the more unpleasant Labour activists when Labour ran Scotland,this behaviour is very familiar. If you expressed the slightest doubt about Labour you’d be instantly sneered at as a Tory, if you expressed any sympathy towards the idea of Scottish independence you’d be a Tartan Tory. This type of thing isn’t about changing your mind, it’s to make you too embarrassed to express your real opinions. It works quite well in the short term but eventually the whole thing erupts as Labour found out to their cost. The SNP leadership might want to reflect that only a few weeks out from the 2011 election polling largely indicated that Labour would return to minority rule and we all know how that turned out for them.

    The SNP leadership have allowed this situation to turn toxic by stamping on any dissent. A healthy pro-indy party should contain a range of views on how to achieve independence. It should be your first port of call if you want to hear these ideas discussed and debated freely. Instead we have a Section 30 or you’re a zoomer mentality.

    Similarly their inability to debate GRA reform has led to needless ill feeling. Most politically engaged adults realise that you’ll win and lose in party debates and accept (however grudgingly) the view of the majority in the party becoming policy,if it’s after proper debate and discussion.

    It’s partly a result of a real lack of any real electoral competition and control freakery at the top. I’ve pretty much lost hope of the change required in the SNP taking place but would welcome being proved wrong.

  27. WhoRattledYourCage

    Breastplate: YES. This is why the opposition, including SNP agents provocateur, are going so mental. The desire for independence is growing inexorably, and cannot be stopped. They will throw everything they have at us. Arguments will mean fuck all. We will win. England will be bankrupted, thus trashing an evil force on the global stage. Hopefully America will soon follow. And I mean the governments of these places, not the people themselves. Obviously.

  28. Astonished

    The woke and the pseudo-yessirs have been found out.

    I expect a few to change sides in the coming weeks.

    I believe substantial legal cases will begin soon by the poor souls who were given hormones and/or surgery to “correct” themselves. I have every sympathy with these “trans”victims.

    I have no sympathy for the stunning and brave liars who told them surgery and hormone therapy would be great and is easily reversible.

    If Humza “can my new wife get a job too” Yusuf’s thought crime bill had passed – I’d be looking at 7 years in the pokey for the above.

  29. WhoRattledYourCage

    Astonished: no, you may well not have,but the fact you would even think that before speaking…means the chilling effect has already begun. Disgraceful and disgusting.

  30. Willie

    Absolutely telling when the leadership of a party turn on the rank and file membership.

    Calling members vile cybernats show how rotten the SNP leadership is,and how anti independence they have become.

    Now Murrell who wanted to pressure police both here and in London to put Salmond under pressure on as many fronts as possible, I’d not just call that vile, I’d call it evil.

    But the cyber brits are being found out.

    Sturgeon’s days are numbered.

  31. Effijy

    Let’s just call you crazy as that really just sums you up!

    The First Minister has record levels of on line abuse from Unionists.
    Now that a minority of Independence supporters can See she has no
    Interest in progressing that goal, some have used unacceptable dialogue.

    Here we tend to be constructive and qualify her faults but as in Tory land
    Not agreeing and pointing out the failing of her action and lack of them is
    To be counted as an attack.

    Come back and respond to our points and you can get a fair hearing.
    Attack on us makes you look hollow and devoid of justification.

  32. Effijy

    We know for a fact Westminster is spending billions on cyber security.
    We know they look for terrorist activity, and remember they called the
    Irish terrorists for wanting to control their own country, so we know we
    as independence and democracy supporters will carry that same tag.

    They can put out massive quantities of misinformation, they can post vicious
    attacks while pretending to be SNP members and they still find time to interfere
    In the US election, as confirmed by the American government.

    Westminster can identify and locate anyone they chose, set them up if they chose
    and bump off anyone they chose.

    They are the greatest on line danger Scotland will ever face.

  33. Robert Graham

    Aye well I hope you lot are sincerely and deeply ashamed of yourselves for having the cheek to question .
    Who’s to blame for setting up and attempting to Jail Alex for a very very long time

    Who’s to blame for encouraging the police to relentlessly pursue Alex

    Who’s to blame for costing the Scottish Taxpayers Zillions in the attempt to again get Alex

    I could go on for a long time because this list of Questions so far hasn’t been answered , the ones who should be answering these perfectly reasonable inquiries so far have avoided , swerved ,refused to supply information that would give honest people the opportunity to make a decision based on the answers to all these questions ,

    And until this place that’s referred to as SNP head office is cleaned up I will just like others will keep questioning, The SNP are the only option because of circumstances right now they might get my vote but it’s not unconditional , nor is it without question and definitely only to keep a unionist out ,it’s definitely not because I endorse or agree with things they are doing right now.

    Well that’s a guilty plea from me as well about this Cybernat Stuff folks keep tossing around I always considered that to be a form of abuse conjured up by Unionists then again its hard to differentiate just now .

    Well Mr Murrell tough shit eh maybe your new found supporters will keep you in the comfort you have become accustomed to Mr Murrell because you ain’t getting another red cent for this mugs wallet , not a penny

    Hands up I fkn surrender .
    And will keep asking Questions

  34. kapelmeister

    It was once said that Peter Murrell’s affectionate nickname at party HQ was Penfold. From a resemblance to the character in the popular 80s cartoon series Danger Mouse.

    He’s not nowadays held in affection by genuine nationalists, that’s for sure. And given his many years of six figure secret salary, I would suggest that a more apt nickname would be Billfold.

  35. SilverDarling


    Just saw this posted on the FoW Twitter:

    It crystallises perfectly the problem with the role of Westminster SNP MPs in that they get so caught up doing stuff unrelated to the prize that they lose sight of why they are there. You would almost think Westminster is doing it deliberately, distracting them with morsels of responsibility to tie up their time. Then Wishart and even JoananaCherry get suffocated and bogged down with UK politics all the while MSPs are bringing in legislation that is poorly thought out.

    Roger Mullin seems to be that rare beast in the SNP – a strategic thinker, someone who can see a different way of doing things, someone with vision. I would like him in Holyrood.

  36. Juteman

    Can’t see much wrong with Mackays headlines?

  37. SilverDarling

    Joanna* sorry 🙂

  38. winifred mccartney

    These folks all use the cyber net wether twitter, face book, social media you are only a cybernat if you disagree with them or face them up.

    Kezia will never learn and will never apologise – she believes she is the only one who can be right (not even just some of the time but all of the time) and she is not alone in this – unfortunately.

    Very surprised at NS coming out for Rhiannon when she did not for Joanna Cherry – it just shows who her friends are and it is not good for the majority of us women – too close a clique who convince one another and walk in step and not enough input from the majority of women who have very real concerns and whose rights some are willing to trample over.

  39. Dan

    WhoRattledYourCage says: at 2:07 pm

    And I don’t remember Sturgeon defending female SNP MSPs when the sexual minority swarmtroopers were attacking them online. Just ask Joanna Cherry or Joan MacAlpine. What a fucking hypocrite.

    I also pointed this hypocrisy out on the last thread.
    By only calling it out when it suits her / their agenda, the inconsistency in not saying anything when similar is dished out to other individuals amounts to displaying prejudice with all that entails.

  40. Achnababan

    Well said Winifred!

  41. Dave Somerville

    Sturgeon is about the same level of support Jack McConnell was at in 2007, when all over Scotland people were having their own “light bulb moment”…

    This was because Labour Party in Scotland were in power for too long and they thought they could wheel out the same shite at every election, comforted by the fact that there was no Party out there who could vote them out of power.

    And then BANG!!!

    Out of the blue came the SNP, and the Labour Party were no more.

    The SNP were a breath of fresh air, just what the majority of Scots had been looking for.

    It took 7 years for an Independence referendum came along,. But what a ride.

    Just missed out on becoming an independent nation.

    Salmond stood aside and let his young female prodigy take over.

    Like mugs we treated her like a Queen, like some kind of massiah.

    Then after a few years it all went quiet on the Independence front.

    She kept asking for Mandate after Mandate.
    Which we kept giving.

    Them these weird policies started appearing. Such as protecting the Woke Brigade.

    Nobody even knew what a Woke was.

    Then other strange things happened, such as the Salmond case.

    And now the strange new leader of the Independence Movenent in Scotland is turning her guns on the very people who put her there.

    In the end she will go, because no human being wi be able to fight off such unpopularity.

    And like McConnell, she will further her own career, leaving us to pick up the pieces and fix the mess she left us in.

    She might even start allowing SNP Representatives can take their place in the House of Lords.

    Where she and Pete Wishart can sit along side that other great Scottish freedom fighter, Baroness Ruth the mooth Davidson.

  42. Scozzie

    Silver Darling @ 4.53pm
    The way I see it, SNP MPs have allowed themselves to get bogged down on WM politics. I think it’s wrong to say WM is doing it deliberately.

    The SNP MPs collectively should have had one clear and simple objective – that is to constantly call out the constitutional deficit and because of this, hammer home the constitutional crisis that ultimately will play out.

    Getting involved in areas that do not advance our stride toward independence is pointless. And we’ve had 6 years of MPs doing just that (with exception JC to some extent).

    As for MPs / MSPs collaboration – seems there’s a massive disconnect – I’d go as far to say that the MPs are excluded on the strategic thinking of achieving independence (no laughing at the back, I know there’s scant strategic thinking going on). But my point is there seems little collaboration on a combined tactical approach to gaining independence.

    So we have a situation where we have some great big hitters like Jo Cherry and Phillipa Whitford, but their hands are tied and out the loop.

    Meanwhile we have a what’s becoming an increasingly sinister power clique in HR that seem to be going full tonto in NS surrounding herself in fanboys and fangirls to entrench herself in power. Afterall, what other explanation can be found in the putting forward these below mediocre McWoke candidates for candidate selection?

    These wokists will NOT and NEVER will deliver independence. This is nothing more than a power play. Independence – huh! It will be trotted out for the 2021 election and just like every election before it, in the last 6 years, will be stuffed back in the box as soon as they’ve won it.

    I really hope that SNP members start to wake up. Scotland’s best chance of getting its independence is with a leader who has the competence and strategic thinking to deliver it. Right now it seems to me that all NS has on her mind is consolidating her own power.

    ps: any news on Peter Murrell losing his job….hmmmm thought not!

  43. SilverDarling


    I agree they have allowed themselves to become part of the process down there.Well meaning and probably naive. Westminster was never going to allow anything meaningful when they can always be outvoted. Remember Dan Snow saying it doesn’t matter how many, they’ll just be ignored? Where they had the possibility of some influence when it was May’s minority govt. maybe there was a point but not now.

    Wishart pontificating on the Scottish Affairs Cttee is an embarrassment and look at Joanna Cherry being castigated on the Future R’ship with the EU Cttee for even asking questions and taking all of 20 minutes. As for Scottish questions, well the least said about that the better.

    There is no place for us down there and I wish the high heid yins had the gumption to walk away.

  44. PacMan

    Maybe they should dig around the archives to find suitable insults. What was it that Mr McKenna, the esteemed purveyor of all things Scottish independence nowadays:

    Yes Scotland, designed to provide a haven for those who want independence but are not necessarily SNP supporters, has had a slovenly beginning. It seems only to have attracted an assortment of social misfits, Walt Disney intellectuals and those who skulk around the edges of Scottish cultural life always ready with pen poised to join a cause at a moment’s notice.

    IIRC, he shorted this to gargoyles and misfits as well in his article back in the day.

  45. Craig P

    Nicola Sturgeon has a point about Twitter – it is the modern equivalent of the green ink brigade. No idea why any politician would bother with it.

  46. Ian Brotherhood

    Looks like the Harassment Committee session on Tuesday is another private session.


  47. WhoRattledYourCage

    I think Twitter is expected of politicians now, to be honest. What other way to let the populace know what intersectionalist-politics-obsessed trendy novels you’re reading, or pretending to?

  48. Asklair

    “Grouse Beater says:
    27 September, 2020 at 1:13 pm
    Short-term editor, Neil Mackay and the SNP hierarchy refer to members of the public, voters, who happen to use the Internet as a means of communicating ideas and expressing dissent.

    Calling them ‘cybernats’ saves doing any thinking and reduces individuals to a sub-sect of society. In other words, Mackay and the SNP do the work of the unionist press.”

    Totally agree with this statement.

  49. tartanfever

    While MacKay’s comments are par for the course, tweets originating from SNP bosses, including Nicola Sturgeon, over the last couple of days are very worrying.

    I would think many people will be concerned about giving them a majority next May.

    Remember, no guarantee of an Independence Referendum but looking more and more likely that some ill thought out legislation will be passed.

  50. Dan

    @ Scozzie & Silver Darling

    Other than sending our MPs to Westminster to highlight the democratic deficit of The Queendom of Scotland being out-voted by The Queendom of England by a power of 10 to 1, does anybody know if there a list of what our MPs have actually achieved in terms of steering / influencing UK policy?

  51. Effijy

    Looked at the BBC Scotland Civid Propaganda page on line.

    They managed to interview one of the students on lockdown in
    Order to protect the community.

    Fail to mention the consensus from all parties that
    Education must return to normal ASAP?

    The young student did think retrospectively that students should have been
    Sent to halls of residence?

    Really? Why did she go then?
    She isn’t from Glasgow so if the demand for the term to start has been made
    Then did she hope for a room at the nearest 5 star hotel?

    She then claims to be locked in but Government advice is to stay put, IF you can!

    Lastly she claims that everyone must catch the virus in there as 11 of them want to cook at the same time?

    Hope Time Management is part of this girl’s study course.
    Does anyone imagine there are 11 cookers in the communal kitchen.
    Do you think people working toward a degree could set up a cooking rota?

    Let us too remind ourselves that Holyrood gave extra funding to the universities,
    They are providing essentials such as food to them, their course work is available on line,
    Tests are available to all who require it and results follow next day.

    I would expect Tessa Marie will prove to be the daughter of some random unionist party councillor.

    Showing the same traits as Dippy Dugdale in her assessments! D Minus.

  52. Dan

    Queendom – now using that term coz I’m not getting accused of hateful misogyny!

  53. Beaker

    @Willie says:
    27 September, 2020 at 4:07 pm
    “Absolutely telling when the leadership of a party turn on the rank and file membership.”

    Not surprising when they refused to apologise or condemn Mhairi Black when she insulted her own constituents.

    Remember when Gordon Brown got caught out on microphone calling someone a “bigoted woman”? At least he apologised in person to her for a comment basically said in private. I’m quite sure lots of politicians have said similar things but behind closed doors. Black posted her comments on her Twitter feed.

  54. Lochside

    Sturgeon’ pathetic and partisan intervention on behalf of the nonentity known as Spears/Speirs sums up how completely out of her depth she is. Like Ian Brotherhood has observed, I believe that her increasingly hysterical ‘Covid’ pleas and begging for understanding, nearly always in the first person reveal an ugly narcissistic and devious personality now realising that the whole shabby charade is nearly over.

    While we bicker and and argue about how to stop the Indy project crashing over the impending Brexit cliff…the SNP remain fixated on their placement of favoured Woke/ BAME/ non binary/ non white w/class males in strategic seats for the ‘S30’ Standoff Farce…an election that may well be put into cold storage by the ‘Sovereign’ UK Gov. on the basis of the continuing Covid emergency.

    No fiction writer could have created the dystopian nightmare that Scotland would be facing in the 6 x years going forward from the fraudulent ‘REF’ result of 2014. ‘Silver Darling’@ 7.18 link to Roger Mullin illustrates the complete dissociation from reality that the SNP has been demonstrating over that period.

    Like a collection of colonial Uncle Toms, they have bought or been bought into the system. Not once, from Salmond onwards have they demanded in Westminster…the crucible of our Sovereign interface with the English hegemony…our indivisible right to Dissolve the corrupt Union over the many breaches committed against our people there.

    The separation from the ailing husk of the Westminster neo-fascist institution must be the disengaging and walking out forever by our MPs. A declaration must be made in that Theatre of the Absurd to all those grinning apes that sit and mock our very existence, led by tra*tors like the despicable Gove and the tory shire scum, that ‘Now is the time’. A return to Scotland and a Convention of Civic Scotland with the rump of Mps should be held and a plebiscite asap. We must assert our Sovereignty before our identity and polity are buried by the completely compromised fifth column ‘leadership’ and their MI5 accomplices.

  55. Kenny

    Perhaps, if you’re reading this blog, Joanna Cherry MP, you could lead a new independence party? You have a growing support who’ll back you to the hilt. You’ll easily galvanise and rejuvenate a stagnant movement.

    With the SNP spiralling downwards into British union, my question to you is; when’s the schism taking place that’ll finally expose the bogus in the SNP?

  56. cynicalHighlander

    @Scozzie says:

    ps: any news on Peter Murrell losing his job….hmmmm thought not!

    Best laugh I’ve had all day.

  57. Beaker

    Well, the world’s gone fucking mad again.

    Some popular purchases in Tesco this weekend, judging by the empty shelves this evening. Pasta, milk, pizza, porridge, Uncle Ben’s microwave rice, pancakes, eggs, microwave haggis neeps n tatties, black pudding and pot noodles. Must be one helluva recipe. That could possibly explain the excessive purchasing of toilet rolls.

    But the inconsiderate bastards went too far. There were no milk chocolate digestives left. That was unforgiveable… 🙂

  58. cirsium

    @Silver Darling, 4.53pm

    Thanks for the link to Roger Mullin’s Lets get together page. It makes for salutary reading. When Ian Blackford used to say that Scotland would not be dragged out of the EU against its will, I assumed that there was an SNP strategy in place, that planning was going on to make it happen with MPs and MSPs working together on the issue. Roger Mullin’s post makes it clear that this oft repeated sentence was empty rhetoric. There seems to have been no planning going on at all on any independence issue nor was there teamwork.

  59. Kenny

    Just occurred; ‘You will face abuse on here’.. that extraordinary tweet by Nicola Sturgeon is the first instance I can recall of her sounding harassed, under pressure. I’d say she’s beginning to crack.

    I’d have a degree of sympathy for her if the mini-meltdown were due to pressures of handling Scottish Covid, and, if her verbal attack were aimed at the Tories.
    Nicola Sturgeon’s meltdown is due to the crumbling mess she’s managed to drag the Party and the entire cause into, the impending fracturing of her lacklustre, campaignless leadership, and the knowledge that Mr Murrell’s misconduct are just the beginning of the unravelling and exposition of many such examples within the party.

    Furthermore, the targeting of abusers and the approval-seeking of ‘all parties’ smacks of desperation, distraction from her own situation.
    If the attack is designed to single out or even include Cybernats – as is the flavour of the tweet – then she should be reminded that those very Cybernats are dedicated, ordinary people doing an entirely better job of communicating the independence idea – genuinely, think about it – than she has managed* in 6 years of not a solitary campaign. All in all, a bad look, First Minister.
    *I’ll concede the additional 2 or 3 per cent Nicola Sturgeon’s convinced during competent Covid conference performances.

    We need a new, driven, leader, and one with independence as the primary aim. Or we need a new party. Whichever comes first – and as we’re going nowhere fast – I can wait.

  60. Grouse Beater

    “Just to say to you here that I read your own blog posts and enjoy every one of them.” Maggie, 1.13pm.

    I hope to write more, if the muse takes me. I’m grateful. Thanks.

  61. Peter Lawrie

    As a long time reader of WOS I have wondered for a while about its direction of travel. Let’s acknowledge that the People’s Front of Judea (AKA the SNP) really hate the Romans (AKA the Britnats) but its leaders are working somewhat slowly and methodically, perhaps with a few mistakes along the way, to achieve the ultimate objective sending the Romans home – Romani ite domum.
    Then there is the Judean People’s Front (AKA WOS supporters) who also hate the Romans, but really really really hate the People’s Front of Judea. Romanus eunt domus or whatever!! The ultimate result could be that the Romans will get to lean on their spears and watch while we destroy each other. Nuff said.

  62. shug

    when is Alex launching his book

  63. Gary45%

    For me the turning point was, when Mr Salmond was cleared, I contacted my MP (who I have walked many miles leafleting, in all weathers etc), telling them that I was not happy that the leadership and my MP did not make a comment congratulating the verdict on the “Father of Independence”.
    The answer I received was the final nail in my decision to leave the party. (there were many other reasons)

    Unfortunately 3 of my “dream team” for an Indy Government are no longer available.
    Alex Salmond, John Finnie and Malcolm Chisholm.
    The 3 finest politicians to ever grace politics.

  64. Ian Brotherhood

    I posted a link earlier today.

    Does anyone know the author? The blog seems to have stopped in July 2017.

  65. A Person

    -Dave Somerville-

    Is that correct? Are Nicola Sturgeon’s ratings similar to McConnell’s in 2007? I can’t see it anywhere?

    Interesting if so; “A week is a long time in politics”- there have been plenty of upsets in history before! What a dismal outcome that would be, though.

  66. WhoRattledYourCage

    ‘Kenny says:
    27 September, 2020 at 9:36 pm
    Just occurred; ‘You will face abuse on here’.. that extraordinary tweet by Nicola Sturgeon is the first instance I can recall of her sounding harassed, under pressure. I’d say she’s beginning to crack.’

    That occurred to me too, and the woman-and-BAME bit sounded harassed and angry too. Cracks beginning to show in the ice-cool facade.

  67. laukat

    I’ve not commented for a while as I’ve tried dto grapple with how I feel about the SNP in light of what has been done to Alex Salmond.

    Alex Salmond is my political hero. What has been done to him is just wrong. However I have seen enough politics over the years to know that if you drop your guard someone will take their chance. For me, by taking on the RT show Alex allowed himself to be caricatured as an out of touch fringe figure. It doesn’t matter if thats true or not it only matters if mainstream opinion forms in that direction. I believe Alex’s
    opponents sensed weakness and then tried to finish him off.

    Nicola Sturgeon is a fine FM and her leadership skills during the covid crisis have been second to none. However I think she felt in the shadow of Alex Salmond and wanted to make sure everyone new she was the boss. I can see why she felt that way and the SNP’s popularity in Scotland has become more mainstream so to a certain degree being able to sideline Alex Salmond was an understandable move. Others have done the same political moves such as Salmond and Sillars. However the means by which it has been achieved is terrible. As much as I expect Alex Salmond to force the truth out I don’t think it will get much of a hearing as the media have already chosen Nicola’s side.

    By being seen to have a hand in an innocent man being criminally prosecuted Nicola Sturgeon has allowed a rift to be created within the SNP. She has done a good job of uniting Scotland during covid the next question is can she as SNP leader unite her party?

    To do so needs some action. Getting her husband to stand aside, reforming the NEC to limit the woke influence and bringing Joanna Cherry back into the fold would be good places to start. I don’t expect her to do this pre-May 2021 elections as to do so would give the impression that she was giving into demands whereas assuming she wins a majority in May she can act from a position of power to renew her party which is always a better look for a politician. For the moment she would be wise to distance herself from Rhiannon Spears and find a way of ensuring she is not selected as a candidate. I suspect the list MSP selections and rankings may give us an indication of how much the issue has been recognised.

    Conversly if she wins in 2021 and doesn’t take action on reforming the party to heal the wounds or get any further with Indepdence then it leaves the only way forward for the Indepdence movement to start a new party. Post May 2021 and with no forward momentum on Indepedence it may leave the door open for Alex Salmond to make a comeback leading a new party.

    So with no alternative route to gaining Indepdence in May 2021 other than voting SNP (Greens are an even bigger level of woke, new Independence groups will not be at the races by next May)I will vote SNP. However it may be the last time.

  68. Ian Brotherhood

    If the SNP ends up going into the 2021 election with a donkey as leader many of us will still vote for it.

    Because we can tell the difference between a political party and a donkey.

  69. Hatuey

    In the real world, outside of places like this, Twitter, and the media bubble, all the regular people I talk to tell me they can’t stand Sturgeon and almost all think the handling of Coronavirus has been abysmal. I’m foresee bad results for the SNP in the election next year, unless there’s meaningful change.

    I can’t explain her supposed popularity at the moment. There’s a lot of chatter from people down south who say they wish they had someone as capable as her at their helm, but it’s pretty incidental. The obvious response to that is to say we wish we had a helm at our helm.

    It’s all noise; in technical terms “crap”.

    Do you think the app is really anonymous? Everything else is lies, why not that? I’m not installing it either way.

  70. A Person


    Sorry but this is wishful thinking on a number of levels. NS has a very high degree of control over Scottish politics, greater than the degree of control than, for example, even powerful politicians like Thatcher and Blair had over British politics in their pomp. Any failure to remove these extremists is not due to any inability to do so on her part. She is not some poor wee dearie surrounded by nasty fanatics. They could be gone in five minutes if she wanted it. If they are still here, that is because she is one of them.

    Sturgeon has not “been seen to have a hand in” the persecution of Alex Salmond. It is not a question of poor media handling (indeed, the unquestioning support/ complete avoidance of the story by the unionist media ought to tell its own story). The dots of what happened are not very hard to join. I agree that Alex Salmond has made mistakes- others may take a different view- and that politics is a rough game where you have to expect your opponents to take advantage of your mistakes. However, we are not talking about embarrassing newspaper headlines, we are talking about what appears to be a conspiracy, orchestrated by some powerful people, to send him to prison. Even Donald Trump has not stooped so low.

    Nicola Sturgeon’s handling of covid has not been “second to none”. Scotland has a higher death rate than most other European countries and at this moment cases are rising at a faster rate than England. Our economy has shrunk considerably more than England’s and the Scottish government is encouraging a curtain-twitching atmosphere- locking up children ffs! Before you say “but their powers are limited”, that is very true, but the SG has performed badly even in those areas where it does have power. A relative of mine tested positive yet none of his contacts have been contacted by track and trace yet. The mass deaths in care homes were due to SG decisions. That was the Scottish government’s job, they have been every bit as inept as Hancock and the buffoon in Downing Street. Yes, this is a terrible crisis and any leader would make mistakes, but if you want an example of an effective leader who dealt with covid well, Angela Merkel, Jacinda Arden or Scott Morrison- all from different political traditions- are better. If by “second to none” you mean “said the word ‘serious’ a lot at news conferences and put on a pensive face”- or, indeed, hubristically declaring, as she did not so long ago, that covid had been eliminated in Scotland- then yes, maybe then NS would qualify. Perhaps “second to worst” might be a better description.

    Excuse my bluntness, but you remind me a bit of the Russian peasants who marched on the Tsar’s palace demanding bread and were shot by the Cossacks. They said “if only the Tsar knew, he would help us”. Whereas, of course, it was the Tsar who had ordered the Cossacks to shoot the peasants in the first place. The facts are quite clear to anybody who looks at them objectively- trust me when I say that I really wish it wasn’t so.

  71. crazycat

    @ Ian B at 10.05

    The blog is credited to Roddy Macdonald, whom I remember from twitter (, but that also seems to stop in 2017. I vaguely remember a few biographical details, but they are not in the (few) tweets that I can see now.

    The specific blog post you linked to, though, was “posted by: unknown”, so could be a guest post.

    Roddy appears to have been a friend of Hamish Henderson’s:

  72. Joe


    ‘Do you think the app is really anonymous? Everything else is lies, why not that? I’m not installing it either way.’

    The trick is when you have to have it to go into shops, GP, public transport etc to keep everyone safe from covid.

    I hear tell, which ive not looked into, that the same company that is putting up illegal migrants in hotels and army barracks with a huge government contract is the same company that is running the test centers and apparently (not confirmed) the NHS app.

    Ive not looked into it. Can’t be arsed. Could be true however if any intrepid googlers feel energetic.

    Noticed the police response in London to the protest. Seems like taking a knee is just for racist marxist organisations bent on vandalism and violence.

    With all the doctors and other professionals speaking out they really need to tell Icke to fuck off.

  73. crazycat

    @ Joe

    The English app is run by Serco, who also “deal” with asylum seekers etc.

    ScotGov allegedly (and probably genuinely) have different one. I don’t have a smartphone, so I don’t have to bother deciding not to download it.

  74. Joe

    @Crazy cat

    They are not asylum seekers. They are illegal migrants. The key is in the fact they already reached a safe haven and choose then to sneak into another country.

  75. Beaker

    I know this is probably a few days old, but I just found out about it.

    The Scot Govt has included self catering accommodation to be included in the ban on visiting other households.

    Eh? Self catering means no one else is there. I’m all in favour of restrictions but this one seems a wee bit too draconian.

  76. Beaker

    @crazycat says:
    27 September, 2020 at 11:41 pm
    “The English app is run by Serco, who also “deal” with asylum seekers etc.
    ScotGov allegedly (and probably genuinely) have different one.”

    They do. They also gave all the links to technical specs for it. As for confidentiality, the developer – and the Scottish Government – would be liable under GDPR for any data breaches, and there are fucking expensive consequences if that happens.

  77. Robert Graham

    Way off Topic

    For any Fans of Gates “Microsoft ” They might want to question why Microsoft applied for and were granted a Patent by the World Intellectual Property Organisation Patent WO 060606 March 26 th 2020 This Patent covers ” Human Body Activity ”

    And anyone who questions and laughs at the thought of the inclusion of a tracing element into vaccines to alleviate the need for a paper based compliance system, incorporated into facial recognition cameras that are able to record temperatures of any subject who becomes of interest to the Authorities ,

    I wonder exactly what stage we are at in this Lab experiment 1 – 2 ? past 2 and entering 3 ,

    This is not a fkn virus induced epidemic it’s something entirely unknown to the peasants , Gates predicted in 2015 the next biggie will be a world wide medical scare , by Christ that’s some serious forsite eh especially when you are in control of all the elements required to bring the predicted situation about , Science Fiction and Tin Hat bonkers imagination , well who the fk knows .

  78. A Person


    So they are needlessly destroying people’s livelihoods as a stunt.

    If this continues young folk will start fleeing to England- again!

  79. Hatuey

    “The Scot Govt has included self catering accommodation to be included in the ban on visiting other households.”

    Does that mean AirBnB is closed in Scotland?

  80. Hatuey

    “If you are staying in a hotel, bed and breakfast or similar accommodation, you should not have more than one household staying in each room booked.”

  81. Hatuey

    I’d probably be willing to bet that the Scottish covid app turns out to be sneakily blagging data in some way, if anyone wants a small wager… and I’d bet we hear about that by Christmas.

    Just about everything they say these days turns out to be lies, especially on coronavirus.

  82. Polly

    Yes he’s a horror. I saw Ruth Wishart criticise him for always and only attacking Indy supporters.

    Also noticed the FM had blocked Kirk J Torrance. Things getting frayed at the edges now. She’s doing again what I detest most about her – partisan support and proving herself such a hypocrite. It was a final eye opener for me when she allowed the abuse of Joan McAlpine to go on as it did and for her to stay silent. For her to speak out now on behalf of a parasite like Spear turns my stomach. There’s no redemption for her after that.

  83. susanXX

    A clear out is desperately needed though I’m inclined to think the SNP is beyond redemption and a new party/ parties for independence is/are required.

  84. twathater

    Please help me I think my tinfoil hat is on too tight, everytime I go on to the National online there appears a ghostlike ad on the R/H side of the page that says “Trans Rights are Human Rights is anyone seeing this ad or am I losing it, Also everytime I turn on the television that wee shite susan calman appears to be on it from bank ads to presenter gigs, are ALL the britnat tv companies TROLLING Scotland by smothering us in Proud Scot BUTS

  85. maureen

    twathater, I just had a look at the national and I can’t see it. Don’t know if that helps!

  86. twathater

    Listened to a youtube broadcast today by “Twa Auld Heids” where a Mike Fenwick was questioning the legality of certain parts of the referendum bill which he said if NOT AMENDED could result in WM challenging the POSITIVE outcome of a indy ref (if only we could GET one), he has contacted his MP, MSP and the SG to highlight this anomaly but has been jerked around (colour me surprised) well worth a listen to, but it is over 2hrs long they have interviews with Mark Hirst, Kenny McAskill, Chris McEleny and others, good one to bookmark

  87. Polly

    @ A Person at 11.05 pm

    Brava. Spoken from the heart and I heartily agree.

    @ twathater 2.20am

    I have ads blocked so didn’t see that, but did notice the report of the possibility of Holyrood election either being postponed to next October or being 100% postal. I’m sure they’d love if they could get away with delaying. At the minute that would just feel like prolonging the agony.

  88. Dave Somerville

    What we are looking for is someone who is as politically cunning as Alex Salmond,,,

    someone who is as skilled an orator as Tommy Sheridan,,,

    and is as legally skilled as Joanna Cherry.

    All applicants apply within, via Rev Stu.

    Our saviour must be out there somewhere.

    Please come out of the shadows,,, just for us,,,,so we can dump the fraudster Sturgeon,,,and get us over the line for Scotland to become an independent nation.

  89. Ottomanboi

    DaveSomerville 07:53
    Of Saviours and Redeemers we’ve had enough. Salmond and Sturgeon were supposedly of the type.
    Both failed. Scotland will be free when the people cease to look to others to act for them and seize the power themselves.
    Just as with Covid-19 the ‘experts’ expertise is flawed.
    This is a personal matter. Either freedom matters or it does not. Choose!
    No more passing the buck.

  90. Breeks

    susanXX says:
    28 September, 2020 at 1:39 am

    A clear out is desperately needed though I’m inclined to think the SNP is beyond redemption and a new party/ parties for independence is/are required.

    I see a clear out as essential. As for beyond redemption, I think there still time to replace Sturgeon and the NEC and get the SNP back on the rails, but the clear out has to happen soon.

    Realistically, Joanna Cherry is calling for the NEC troublemaker’s to be sacked, and an Autumn Confeference perhaps online to ring the changes. I agree. I think it’s vital, and it’s probably drinking in the Last Chance Saloon to avoid irreparable damage.

    I don’t want to sound bitter, but I’m thinking of all those apologists and drips making endless excuses for Sturgeon’s inaction these last five years by saying that Sturgeon had to back pedal on Independence because as First Minister she had to govern for the whole of Scotland, Indy and Unionist alike…

    Sturgeon is quite transparently no such animal, and quite shameless when it comes to backing up her own wee coterie of wokerati conspirators, who serve their own interests and no others.

    The other trope is Sturgeon’s “popularity” and handling of COVID. Not sure what that has to do with Independence, but Sturgeon’s popularity isn’t confined to Scotland. Sturgeon comes top of a YouGov poll…

    That’s brilliant, except you have to ask yourself why the SNP Leader who is meant to usher in the demise of the UK Union and deliver Scottish Independence is polling so well South of the Border.

    It is my firm conviction that Sturgeon’s UK wide popularity is just a simple reciprocal of Boris Johnson’s \ Tory unpopularity, and to interpret this as having any bearing on Independence is deeply misguided.

  91. Gary45%

    When we stop bombing the SH*T out of innocent countries whilst playing lap dog to the yanks, the “so called” immigrant problem will disappear.
    Why do English immigrants call themselves Expats?

  92. Effijy

    Alex, and all of us need to reinforce the fact that he has been
    Given free reign on the RT Channel to say what he likes and
    Interview who he likes, always with instructive and justified comments
    and questions.

    No UK media outlet gives his side of any story and never will.
    A true leader, never guilty of any crime, never in it for himself,
    a man always putting the people of Scotland first is perpetually
    attacked and vilified as he aims to remove the rich hands of
    Westminster from Scotland’s pocket.

    He was ganged up on by all unionist parties to lose his seat in a manner
    Never seen before with a Labour leader promoting vote Tory to stop a
    Man the could not stop alone.

    Why on earth wouldn’t he use RT to keep the public politically aware and
    generate an income, all of which was spent against defending his reputation in

    Now we are to embrace a new right wing extremist, billionaire Trump supporter’s
    New GB News Channel Funder from America.

    Brillo heid, truth denier is to front the shows fake news special.

    That will add right wing distorted news to that provided by the BBC 1 & 2, Sky, ITV, Channels 4 and 5.

    The UK media is no better than that in North Korea.

    Time leave Scotland. Just as soon as you can!

  93. Corrado Mella

    Remember, folks: narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths are always incoherent, because they always lie and always say what’s most convenient to them at that specific moment to make themselves look good to others.

    It’s the biggest giveaway that should help us to identify one of those cancerous cells in our anthropomorphic society.

    We are where we are exclusively because of these defective sub-humans. Until we don’t reform the structures of power to block access to those soulless bastards, we’ll always be dictated by our lesser.

  94. Shug

    BBC on full attack mode this morning. Tokio Kaye with a host of English sounding voices attacking the Scottish government for openng the universities.
    First one I heard talked about the Scottish government allowing students to go home if they isolate but not saying what they should do if they have tested positive.
    The BBC is clearly spreading misinformation to spread the virus by causing and spreading confusion

  95. Papko

    “We are where we are exclusively because of these defective sub-humans. Until we don’t reform the structures of power to block access to those soulless bastards,”

    Any mechanism for doing that? If you block their access to certain jobs, they may be forced to sign on.

  96. laukat

    @A Person says

    I didn’t say the Scottish Government has got everything right regarding covid. I said Nicola’s leadership skills have been second to none. She has faced the media and answered questions every day on every decision she and her government have made. To pretend that she has not been an impressive leader during this period is to deny reality.

    I hope truth about Alex Salmond comes out. I think for Alex the optimum time for that to happen is post May 2021.

    Remember the Russians had only really 2 prospects. Retain the Tsar or go for the Communists. If in the analogy you picked you say waiting on the Tsar was the wrong choice than I assume you would throw you’re lot in with the communists. Neither option was a good one. In Scotland’s current situation there is either vote SNP or vote Unionist, no votes count for the status quo as failure to win a majority will be seen as a rejection of Independence.

    So how exactly will you cast your vote in May whilst still gaining Independence as soon as possible? Realistic proposals only please.

  97. Wee Chid

    laukat says:
    28 September, 2020 at 9:27 am
    @A Person says

    “So how exactly will you cast your vote in May whilst still gaining Independence as soon as possible? Realistic proposals only please.”

    There is no way. We’re stuffed for the foreseeable future. None of the major parties are offering a route to independence “as soon as possible”. The SNP are carrot dangling in the same way that Labour did. In the absence of any credible independence party then the only option will be to spoil the ballot paper. I’ve given up ever seeing independence in my lifetime and anything beyond that isn’t soon enough for me.

  98. stuart mctavish

    Its been looking like severe commie cold since the numbers first started coming in so was good to see Icke there, if only to expose the gulf in sanity between him and the directors of Scottish universities..

    Also ironic to see Dr Schöning arrested at speakers corner – so much so one might be inclined to suspect further conspiracy.

    That said, one clip of a policeman telling a protestor to shut it because his wife was a staff nurse and knew all to well how real it was begs the obvious question as to why the hell he was allowed on duty and not obliged to self isolate for the better protection of the public/ his wife/ her patients, etc..

  99. laukat

    @Wee Chid

    Agree that SNP are Carrot dangling. However it doesn’t take away from Indepdence cause requiring the SNP to gain a majority in May 2021 to move forward the cause asap.

    I no longer fully believe that the SNP will be the vehicle to gain Independence. More likely that post May 2021, assuming a Majority and more carrot dangling that a new pro-Independence group will appear as a credible force to drive things forward.

    Spolit ballot papers and not voting just reduce the chance of a majority. If there is no Majority in May it will put Independence back 20/30 years.

    That in my opinion is the hard choices. For me, I will always vote for the option that is most likely to get Indepedence as quickly as possible.

  100. Hatuey

    Laukat, vulgar simplifications will get you nowhere on here. Trust me, I’ve tried.

    Sturgeon’s been better at PR during the Coronavirus crisis. Not being Boris in Scotland is definitely to her advantage.

    The impact of the virus itself has been much the same as in England and that’s as you’d expect since they’ve made the exact same mistakes.

    The codswallop about tsarist Russia has no basis in anything and doesn’t deserve a serious response. We have much more than the binary choice you are suggesting.

    The simplest thing for everyone would be for her to resign. I predict that will happen before Christmas, giving the new leadership team enough time to prepare for the election.

    When I say for everyone above, I mean also for the British state. Their relationship with her serves no purpose if she doesn’t have the confidence of the rabble.

    One possible outcome here is that the British use the situation to close down Holyrood and take control. When you think about it, the crisis that has started unfolding here could go the way the “cash for ash” crisis went in NI. It’s a very similar situation in many respects.

    As said, to avoid all that she needs to go.

  101. Effijy

    Following up on my Alex Salmond/RT post above.

    Remember Westminster wants you to vilify Russia
    with their last pitch claiming that they interfered in
    The last US elections.

    The Americans investigated this to the nth degree but could
    Not make any links with Russian interference.

    What they did uncover was Westminster’s secrete services interfering and
    Promoting a Hilary Clinton win.

    So as Westminster stated, any country that interferes in another country’s democracy
    is a serious danger to democracy. These people must be stopped.

    Very unusually I agree with Westminster on this occasion and yes, Westminster must be stopped
    for the sake of democracy!

  102. Andy Ellis


    The false dichotomy schtick is often used, but becomes no more convincing despite constant repetition in many situations. It simply isn’t true that the only choice in Russia was a binary Tsar vs. Communism one, any more than it was true the only choice for Arabs is local authoritarian (Gaddaffi/Assad/Al Sisi) versus Islamist.

    In our context it’s not a choice between SNP and indy or unionist & status quo. The SNP is not the whole movement, however dominant they have been allowed to become. The glaring problem for those pushing this line is that the SNP aren’t going to deliver independence unless there is a palace coup which essentially replaces the current leadership and puts the Woke Stasi firmly in its place (hopefully by driving them out altogether).

    If the party fails to do so in the short term, the only realistic alternative for pro independence folk who disagree with the current leadership and policy direction is to leave and build a viable alternative. I understand why many rank and file members want to try and “reclaim” their party, but they’ve been spectacularly unsuccessful in stopping the take over by the current crop of science denying woo-woo charlatans. They have a very limited window of opportunity to make things right. Meantime those of us who don’t believe the party can be saved from its own stupidity have work to do.

    As for your question about voting in May, like many I will vote for ISP on the list. In my constituency (Edinburgh Central) I will vote SNP if the candidate aligns with my views (not looking hopeful so far!?) or spoil my ballot. There is no other viable choice, because SNP 1& 2 isn’t going to result in a vote on independence, still less its actual achievement, in the short to medium term.

    Of course the gradualists in the SNP leadership and activist base will be quite content with that. Being big fish in a devolutionary pond is more important to them than actually fighting for independence.

  103. Ian Brotherhood

    @crazycat (11.05) –

    Thanks, and sorry for slow response, I was abed early.

    I don’t remember ever seeing that blog before. Very interesting stuff.

  104. auld highlander

    Re the Scottish covid app mentioned up thread.

    It’s the same as the Irish app and the firm behind it is NearForm who originated in Tramore Co. Waterford.

  105. Joe


    So…we have a moral right to not accept sub-Saharan illegal migrants then?

    But heres another question – since these folk literally have to travel across the breadth of Europe to get to the shore in order to cross into Britain…what is it about life in Europe under the EU that makes Britain so appealing in comparison?

    As for middle eastern wars – these are outright war crimes. The main perpetrators being Zionist Israeli’s who have the American political and legal system by the balls and want to see a greater Israel spanning from the Nile to the Euphrates.

    While European countries are to have open borders Israel has a very tight policy on immigration and vocally advocate for homogeneity but whose officials and supporters advocate, fund and run the NGO’s that are bringing the 3rd world to the people of Europe.

    Flooding Europe with the 3rd world will not hang Tony Blair or George Bush or the neo-conservative Zionists who are responsible for this situation. All it will do is destroy Europe while Africa and the Middle East will still be neck deep in the shit the elites have dropped them in.

    Then at that point we will also be too poor and desperate to do anything about it.

    Sorry – I know there are a lot of people with pink fluffy fantasies of how ‘together’ we will be when we all ‘become as one’. We won’t. We will be fucked. Because Europeans are the only people now who are expressly forbidden from thinking along racial or religious lines while absolutely everyone else on earth does.

    Speaking as someone whose wife is from a very poor country there is only one solution – building up those countries for the good of their own people and probably helping them hang the people who indebted them to allow them strip their countries of assets.

  106. A Person


    Thank you that is kind, especially coming from someone like you who posts a lot of sense on here.


    I agree. The old folk who are tuning into these broadcasts and saying how Sturgeon has grown on them are still going to go out and vote to keep Queen, Union Jack and their house prices at the end of the day.


    I think you have misunderstood my analogy a bit, the Russian peasants believed that the Tsar in his palace had their best interests at heart and blamed the shooting on bad people surrounding him whereas in fact the Tsar was the cause of all the trouble. I am saying that putting your faith in Nicola Sturgeon, when it is Nicola Sturgeon who has caused many of the things you complain of, seems odd to me.

    You “hope the truth about Alex Salmond comes out”. If you have been reading the Rev Stu Campbell’s posts on this site, the truth about Alex Salmond is pretty bloody obvious.

    After I have demonstrated that Sturgeon has not handled covid very well (again, it would obviously tax any leader), you assert that Sturgeon’s hosting of daily press conferences nevertheless makes her a superior leader. Incidentally I think needing to be on tv every single day speaks to a somewhat unhealthy pathology. More importantly, it seems you and others are content to accept any outcome as long as it’s presented in a way that makes you feel good. Bluntly speaking she has only been “impressive” if you are interested only in the cosmetic aspect of politics. I would rather Scotland was led by the uncharismatic Merkel whose country has had comparatively few deaths and minimal economic and social disruption.

    In both these instances it seems that you, like many others, have some weird attachment to Nicola Sturgeon, whereby any misdeeds or ineptitude can be excused because “och, she’s just great”. I cannot fathom why so many invest so much faith in this rather dull woman, who has achieved diddly squat in the six years she has had untrammelled power over Scottish politics.

    I will not be voting for the SNP because, as I have hopefully made clear, I regard their leader as a authoritarian, inept and self-serving. The SNP do not have any entitlement to my vote and have no interest in pursuing independence despite the hot air they generate about it. I will vote for a strong Independence Party if one is on the ballot or otherwise will spoil my paper. I have never done this before.

    I apologise for sounding a bit high-handed but frankly this unwillingness to accept what should be plain to any objective person is deeply frustrating.

  107. Ian Brotherhood

    An overseas friend tells me there is speculation that the SG is thinking of scrubbing the ‘Old Firm’ game on Oct 17th because too many people will be getting together to watch it.

    Anyone else heard this?

  108. Mac

    Where exactly did the SG do any better than the UKG managing covid? What a load of bollocks. About the only tangible thing I can find is that NS has better (allegedly) presentation skills than BJ.

    People should be judging the SG on how it is doing versus other countries with far lower death rates and asking why? but instead all that seems to matter is that we are making slightly less of an arse of it than England. I find it a very small-time mentality.

  109. Albert Herring

    “what is it about life in Europe under the EU that makes Britain so appealing in comparison?”

    The streets of Britain are paved with gold. Immigrants get free housing, free health care, and massive benefit payments.

    The press has been banging on about this for decades.

  110. stonefree

    @ Ian Brotherhood at 10:01 am
    “I don’t remember ever seeing that blog before. Very interesting stuff.”
    He did post on here quite often, I did subscribe to the Blog, Then it just stopped, I had forgot about it till I saw the layout and background

  111. A Person

    -Andy Ellis-

    Agree with all you write, as usual.


    Yes, “not as bad as Boris Johnson” is hardly a ringing endorsement. Constantly comparing ourselves to England is a sign of the Scottish cringe.

  112. Big Jock

    Mac -Correct about Covid- It’s all to do with perception.

    Nicola is better at communicating, but like all European countries Covid- 19 is a disaster.

    In particular the locking down of students in halls , when it was the SG who let them return. Now this morning they are letting some go home. It’s actually now spiraling out of control. The Schools are being kept open for political reasons at the moment.

    However I expect they will close come the October week and beyond. I expect a full lockdown in November.

  113. Joe

    To summarise the situation with mass migration to Europe:

    When the issue of trans rights 1st appeared it was the opinion of everybody with half a heart that these people should not suffer undue discrimination or bigotry. I agree.

    The trouble is the ‘trans rights’ issue has been weaponised against ordinary people by powers using that issue as a pawn.

    The same is the situation with mass migration. There is nobody with a heart who doesn’t want to do something to help people in need but like the trans rights issue you will find that this will be weaponised against us in order to dispossess us of our legal and democratic power in our own countries.

    Critical theory + mass migration = mr and mrs Johnson of 2a Hope Avenue are fucked and so are their kids.

  114. Gary45%

    Nicely put.

  115. Mac

    “But heres another question – since these folk literally have to travel across the breadth of Europe to get to the shore in order to cross into Britain…what is it about life in Europe under the EU that makes Britain so appealing in comparison?”

    They are incentivized to come here over other European safe havens. The UKG knows this and the SG knows it. Yet they both continue to do so, even the tories.

    I have zero doubt had NS had her greatest wish (devolved immigration powers) she would have joined in with Angela Merkel’s madness in bringing in a huge amount of people.

    Trust me you really don’t want NS in charge of a newly independent Scotland.

  116. Hatuey

    Joe: “ what is it about life in Europe under the EU that makes Britain so appealing in comparison?”

    In a word, or two, identity cards. Once you’re in Britain, you’re more or less free to live without interference. On the continent you need to show your ID to buy a bag of crisps.

    This is one of the reasons for the Schengen Accord which effectively gave Britain another “opt out”. Being an island, Britain has always depended on physical controls at outer borders rather than things like ID cards.

    From an illegal migrant worker’s perspective, that’s quite an appealing situation.

  117. Willie

    Breeks @ 9.05

    Couldn’t agree more that the SNP is not beyond redemption. But the clear out and the change in policy direction needs to happen now.

    The decision to use the next election, indeed the last elections as a driver of long overdue. Plan B, plan C should have all been in play. A majority in both parliaments, dragged out of Europe against our democratic will, the removal of power from the Scottish Parliament, and now was not the time.

    Who is kidding who. Someone is because the SNP has become the party to defe4 independence, to stop independence and it has formulated and implemented policies and actions to do that – whilst brutally using the apparatus of the state and totally corrupt process to achieve that.

    And the MPs, they have been sidelined, left to rot, emasculated to become cardboard cut outs playing no part in the independence fight.

    But things can change. Party conference can wipe our the corrupt NEC. The criminal Peter Murrell can be sacked . The wokerati candidates can be withdrawn or utterly isolated. Failed vetting can be reversed. The current selection process can be deferred. There is time, but the time is short, so it needs to be now.

    We are at the tipping point. Blind unity behind a rotten regime is no longer an option. The prize is not going to elude us because of a small group of rotten politicians – and make no mistake Sturgeon and her husband are rotten.

    Yes last chance saloon. Absolutely. And the time for change has to be now. And especially as we hurtle out of the EU. Fascism is here. English Fascism and it isn’t going to be pleasant. No wonder they have plans for troops on the streets – although Police Scotland, of the Alex Salmond Investigation Team say they have no plans to actually use troops.

  118. Breastplate

    Big Jock,
    Why do you mean by “out of control” and why do you believe we need a national lockdown?

  119. Breastplate


  120. Mac

    I really don’t think there are ‘cybernats’. It is an invention. When you think about it, it is a ridiculous concept. It is just made up shite. Read the comments in The Scotsman. How come we are not talking all those cybercunts or cyberwhatevers.

    However there is a tangible group within the SNP who are extremely vicious who have a maniacal belief in extreme (and ludicrous) ideology who will not hesitate to smear people in the most foul and dishonest way, to get them sacked etc, indeed to even try to send an innocent man to die in jail.

    Funny how the unionist press don’t seem so interested in their behaviour, nor the SNP leadership who instead legitimize the lie that these ‘cybernats’ are actually real. Working hand in hand again it seems…

    I guess if you are the one behind the woke psycho brigade that Team Nicola has fostered and nurtured it is handy to have some fictitious ‘cybernat’ goon squad to deflect away the attention and criticism you should be facing.

    Everything Nicola is doing is to poison the well of the independence movement. All these hugely contentious and divisive policies are being brought into do what they do best, the attempt to destroy AS, the manner in which it was done form the very start to this very day. Repopulating the party with lunatics, all while squandering BREXIT… The list goes on and on and all of it is to fuck up the independence movement.

    Can you imagine the state YES would be in at the polls had it not been for BREXIT and all we had was all of the above. BREXIT is actually covering for them.

  121. Beaker

    @Breastplate says:
    28 September, 2020 at 11:20 am
    Big Jock,
    “What do you mean by “out of control” and why do you believe we need a national lockdown?”

    It’s heading that way. Three main causes (in my opinion at least):

    1. Abysmal test and trace procedures by all UK governments. Look to Germany.

    2. Typical attitudes by fuckwits who think personal freedom comes before public health. Not the majority but a substantial proportion across the UK. Not helped by officials going for eye tests, visiting second homes and getting caught out shagging.

    3. Politicians using COVID as an excuse for political fighting. Rather than everyone swallowing their pride, they all decide to play at onemanupship. All of them.

  122. Breastplate

    Perhaps you can talk me through the government’s strategy and what it hopes to achieve?
    Then I have some questions for you depending on what the strategy is.

  123. Graeme

    The only reason the term “Cybernats” is used against us is because we allow it to,

    Cybernat is a term used to describe Scottish nationalists who express their views online, WTF is wrong with that we’ve no other outlet.

    Be proud to be a Cybernat, Wear it as a badge of honour, and be happy you’re not a Cyberyoon 🙂

  124. Gary45%

    Better being a proud Cybernat, than an embarrassed Cyberyoon.
    Nice one.

  125. susanXX

    Must say I agree with Joe @10:09. Illegal immigration is not desirable. It destabilizes the country it happens to and creates problems. Some cultural/ religious customs are just unacceptable. Enriching diverse tapestry my arse.

  126. Breastplate

    I have a vile cybernat badge.

  127. Dave Somerville

    The two faces of Sturgeon.

    Her daily briefing Covid19 face, then the evil little bastard face, where she tries to jail innocent men and calls her own side Cybernats.

    What a dangerous nasty little bitch she is.

  128. Stoker

    Another thing I’m getting sick of seeing on Twitter *&* on here btl is the absolute w@nkers who’re constantly coming out with this crap: ‘note how as we get near indy all the “so-called” Yessers who are attacking Nicola or creating division’ blah blah blah.

    Firstly, begging for an S30 and being told to get back to the kitchen sink is *not* getting “near indy”.

    Secondly, why is it the fault of “so-called” Yessers and not that of certain SNP politicians who have lied to us all, made false promises, tried to prosecute innocent folk, been deliberately obstructive with information requests or who have tried to ram extreme minority policies down our throats? Policies they did not stand on.

    Simply put, if those in the snp didn’t give us the reasons there would be no public arguments within the Yes movement. We could all focus on the BritNat crap.

    It wasn’t “so-called” Yessers who celebrated the taking down of the WOS Twitter account was it? Absolute arseholes, everyone of them, and they can call me a “so-called” all they want coz I know there’s not one of them been fighting for indy as long as I have been.

    And now we are seeing a growing number of these SO-CALLED representatives shutting down their social media accounts to responses from anyone who doesn’t lick their arses. Where is the accountability? There isn’t any and that’s the problem.

    PS: Rhiannon Spears is a blatant liar & Sturgeon & Fiona Hyslop are her bully supporters. Shame on them all for picking on a young lassie who just told the truth. Not a party I want to be associated with. Shameful!

  129. kapelmeister

    Dave Somerville @12:32

    Her jist bin chucked oot face is going to be enjoyable.

  130. Balaaargh

    @breastplate, you vile cybernat, you! 🙂

    What’s your thinking about lockdown?

  131. Dave Somerville

    Is Sturgeon Bi-Polar?

    A jekyll and hyde?

    Dual personality disorder?

    Or just a self serving cunning bitch, where her and her man want to plough as much money as they can into their bank account, before fuckin off for some other well paid job, and leave Scotland stuck in this stinkin fuckin Union?

  132. Beaker

    Breastplate – apologies for not replying quicker but I’m working.

    Saw this comment elsewhere and I think it sums things up:

    August: Get back to university
    September: Stay in your accommodation or else

    Government’s strategy? I don’t care what happens outside Scotland. I have a personal interest what happens here as I have a relative studying.

    If you want an answer ask Mr Lochhead.

  133. Ian Brotherhood

    If I had a child in uni halls right now I’d be going to get them and their gear, then arranging online zoom meetings with all the other scunnered parents to work out how best to raise legal action against the Scottish Govt generally and NS personally.

  134. Dave Somerville

    kapelmeister 12.38pm

    Sooner rather than later will do nicely thanks. ?

  135. Robert Graham

    As we are still on the Cybernat thingy

    I seem to remember first referred to by

    Baron Foulkes of Cumnock

    If that’s the case where can I get my Badge anything that Scabby Jeremy Hunt is annoyed by is ok with me .

    On a lighter note Broon has been resurrected again and is bumping his gums on SKY News this follows a brief appearance by Labour in Scotlands Shop Steward by Christ the Labour spin machine is in overdrive, I guess folk will think Who and what’s this Labour Party for and I remember them , but SKY News seems to think a creature from the afterlife has any relevance to anything

    What’s the saying you can Fool some of the people etc well following the VOW it looks like it worked once , not sure if Scots will or could be fooled again , I am not that confident about that one having listened to some folk when I am out, some Scots will swallow any old tosh .I mean they voted Labour for all these years when they used to just Weigh the vote , Who Knows .

  136. Dave Somerville


    I hit a wee face imijo and a question mark appeared.

  137. David Caledonia

    The heed yins of the present snp are a bunch of clowns, we all know that.
    I would support anyone that fights to get rid of them before next years election, its time we got rid and as quickly as possible.
    If anyone on wings has any ideas on the best way to do this, I for one would be glad to read about them
    Come the election I will still vote snp, but it will be with a feeling of trepidation if these numbskulls are still leading the party
    I am allways an optimist, but its looking like my optimism is misplaced when it comes to that load of wooley minded screwballs

  138. Dave Somerville

    I look and listen to Sturgeon now on the telly and see a very different person from the one that we held in such high esteem when she first took over from Alex Salmond.

    I see a very evil woman who has nobodies interest at heart, apart from her own.

    Mr Murrell comes across as the greedy agent guiding his prodigy through all the right hoops, so they gain as much power and money as they can, before the Scottish public catch on to their con trick and chase them out of town.

  139. Breastplate

    If you we don’t know what the strategy is how can we make appropriate decisions?

    The student demographic has far less chance of dying from covid than the greater population does of dying from the flu.
    How do we square the lockdown of a younger demographic that is at little risk from the coronavirus and no discernible burden on the NHS against the accepted risks that are posed from flu to the greater population?

    There are many factors that should be part of the equation for making decisions that are being ignored or given little value.

    Again, if somebody is in a high risk category, they should self isolate.

    I don’t believe my thinking is outlandish in any way but would appreciate a reasoned argument to the contrary if possible.

  140. Breastplate

    I believe that rigid lockdowns will be detrimental to our society going forward because as I’ve said before, little or no value is given to mental, physical and psychological well being and the consequences going forward and will be with us for decades.

    We will all have the gift of 20/20 hindsight in years to come and be able to quantify the fruit of the mistakes we make now.

  141. Balaaargh


    Fair enough.

  142. Robert Graham

    Oh Dear on SKY again it’s being reported that Glasgow UNI have set a precedent by offering support to students that’s not available in England.

    This brings me back to The Baron Foulkes of Cumnocks Comments some time ago , The Scottish Government are funding social care more in Scotland just to make councils in England look bad ” And What’s More They are Doing it Deliberately ”

    Oh he’s a bleedn Treasure George the Labour Barron , let that sink in A Sir is the leader of Labour and most of the Lords are also Labour ha ha who’s fooling who here . Gravy Train ring a bell ?

  143. David Caledonia

    I am a type2 diabetic, I have been taking their stupid pills for years thinking ack it can’t do me any harm
    Well for the second time their pills have done me harm and I am taking them no more
    Thankfully the harm does not seem to be permanent, but only the future will give me the answer to that
    I was again losing a lot of weight and my thinking was again not what it should be, I have bedsores on my bum where it has lost its former cuteness ( well I thought it was cute lol )
    But being serious for a second, anyone who is a diabetic type2 and still believes in the crap tablets they supply you with, I really urge you to think again and look for an alternative, I am going to try an old chinese medicine called chinen salt which chinese have been using for thousand of years, my problem is getting a decent priced supply of it, I have tried just about everywhere , Holland and Barrett, Boots the chemist etc etc etc, no one seems to have even heard of it
    Well today I am going for a chinese takeaway which I have been doing to put some meat on my bones, especially my bum ( its bloody sore down there I can tell you ) but the cream is beginning to work its magic
    Anyway, while I am waiting for my chinky I will ask the girl to ask the chinese people behind the sliding door on how I go about getting Chinen Salt
    If anyone on wings knows where I can get a decent priced supply I would be grateful for your help

    Thank you

  144. CameronB Brodie

    For the last fucking time folks, SNP POLICY IS NOT WOKE, as the party simply does not support the rights of women or ethnic minorities. They appear content though, to disregard international law and sacrifice Scotland to the will off English fascism (see Brexit). So it’s probably more accurate to describe the party as friends of English Torydum, and so, subsequently, enemies of Scotland.

  145. Breastplate

    Some words get hijacked, warped, changed or misunderstood.
    Battery when it should be cell is one, dice when it should be die is another and for the life of me I can’t stop my mother calling the vacuum cleaner a hoover.

  146. Polly

    @ Cameron

    ‘For the last fucking time folks, SNP POLICY IS NOT WOKE, as the party simply does not support the rights of women or ethnic minorities’

    I agree they don’t support women and I’m uncertain about minority’s other than Trans, but Cameron what would you have us call the specific policies if not ‘woke’. That word does seem to have entered into common parlance as a shorthand for those policies and that ideology. Do you suggest we use something else?

  147. David

    The FM is correct the abuse is terrible

  148. Polly

    @ Breastplate at 1.48 pm

    ‘for the life of me I can’t stop my mother calling the vacuum cleaner a hoover.’

    I do that too because my granny used to when I was small and my mother did it after her, now me. We’ve never owned a hoover model in all that time.

    Woke is a word which I think might not be able to be removed now from people’s lexicon. And the whole trans ideology is the reason I worry about other words/meanings being changed and why it can be so dangerous to allow them to change so much.

    @ David says:
    28 September, 2020 at 1:55 pm
    The FM is correct the abuse is terrible

    Yes just a pity she is so very very selective in who to support and when to ignore abuse. She’s deserving of all the calumny that can be heaped on her for behaving in such a despicable way.

  149. Breastplate

    I “hoover” the carpet still.
    Yes, it’s not a hill to die on, same as some others but other important words like the meaning of women for instance, is intrinsic to our society and is a hill worth dying on.

  150. CameronB Brodie

    It’s a very long time since I was trained in WOKE pedagogue, which was designed to counter neo-liberalism’s colonisation of human existence, and which only works in tandem with inclusive legal practice. So I’m very rusty, but the first principle I’d suggest is simply DO NOT reject Common law reasoning by denying a legal respect for the human genome. Such anti-foundational and dogmatic legal instrumental-ism is intensely dehumanising and authoritarian in nature, and pretty much the same legal practice as employed by the Nazis (and BoJo). So I think the easiest description would simply be “gender-fascists”, who’s intent is to destroy language meaning so that legal judgement becomes even more arbitrary and effectively a tool of politics.

    Genderwoowoo lacks coherence and compatibility with medical philosophy and bioethics, so it also lacks coherence and compatibility with both the Common law and the principles of open democracy. That’s why Scotland is getting pumped from both ends, the party of hope has simply become hostile to rationality and self-determination.

    Putting Phenomenology into Practice – Towards an Ontology of Person Centered Healthcare

  151. CameronB Brodie

    I’m aware that words become misused over time, that’s why ethically robust legal practice is essential to all our futures. 😉

    International Journal of Constitutional Law, Volume 14, Issue 3, July 2016, Pages 712–738
    Substantive equality revisited

  152. Polly

    @ Breastplate says:
    28 September, 2020 at 2:13 pm

    I agree the definition of woman is a hill worth dying on, woke is not. Yet perhaps the word woke could be dismissed as mere insult and any statement containing that term ignored on that basis alone? That’s why I wondered what else might we usefully use without having to mention every policy that was damaging and go through the rigmarole.

    Cameron, though I agree with what you say on this I’m not sure ‘gender-fascists’ would work much better. It may be a more precise term for most of their policies and has that advantage, but any mention of the word fascist tends to turn people away since it’s been so much overused and tended to become undervalued as to what it actually is. It also doesn’t trip off the tongue so easily and I can’t see it supplanting ‘woke’ more generally. I’m not sure what the answer is to be able to talk about these things without turning some people away because of the mere words themselves.

  153. CameronB Brodie

    What about simply “numpty”? Seriously, I hear what you’re saying, so what about SCIENCE DENYING AUTHORITARIANS?

    Book review
    The Hermeneutics of Medicine and the Phenomenology of Health – Steps towards a Philosophy of Medical Practice

  154. CameronB Brodie

    “SCIENCE DENYING AUTHORITARIANS”? I’m rusty but I know my shit. Unlike those running the party of hope.

    The Journal of Medicine and Philosophy: A Forum for Bioethics and Philosophy of Medicine, Volume 44, Issue 4, August 2019, Pages 459–478

    A Defense of the Phenomenological Account of Health and Illness


    A large slice of contemporary phenomenology of medicine has been devoted to developing an account of health and illness that proceeds from the first-person perspective when attempting to understand the ill person in contrast and connection to the third-person perspective on his/her diseased body.

    A proof that this phenomenological account of health and illness, represented by philosophers, such as Drew Leder, Kay Toombs, Havi Carel, Hans-Georg Gadamer, Kevin Aho, and Fredrik Svenaeus, is becoming increasingly influential in philosophy of medicine and medical ethics is the criticism of it that has been voiced in some recent studies.

    In this article, two such critical contributions, proceeding from radically different premises and backgrounds, are discussed: Jonathan Sholl’s naturalistic critique and Talia Welsh’s Nietzschean critique. The aim is to defend the phenomenological account and clear up misunderstandings about what it amounts to and what we should be able to expect from it.

    health, illness, naturalism, Nietzsche, phenomenology

  155. Daisy Walker

    @ David Caledonia re Chinen Salt.

    Very interesting re this, Amazon initially shows a result for it then takes you to chicken salt.

    Would suggest a reputable Chinese medicine outlet would be better than a take away venue.

    Type 2 diabetes is curable.

    Dr Jason Fung – has numerous books and Video lectures on You tube explaining how and why intermediate fasting works. He also has his own contact site to assist.

    He’s been subject to numerous efforts by big pharma and orthidox medicine to attempt to discredit him as he is not pushing a pill) – being a consultant in Kidney disease, and being scrupulous about evidencing his research means that cannot touch him.

    Good luck and good health.

  156. Albert Herring

    David Caledonia @1:26

    I am too, but my diabetes went away after I went vegan. Check out Dr. McDougall among others.

  157. David Caledonia

    Thank you Daisy and Albert , much appreciated, I will look up Doctor Fung Daisy as I have never come across him before, and Albert I don’t believe I am diabetic now or have been for some time, I don’t even ask for the results of my blood tests any longer and my doctor’s receptionist never calls me, but they still gave me their horrible medication
    I have allways said that doctors are only agents for drug companies, they get a little something like a nice holiday of the drug rep for punting their products to

    Thanks again to you both, good advice there

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