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Last night news happened

Posted on August 06, 2014 by

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    1. 06 08 14 11:22

      Last night news happened | Scottish Independence News

    226 to “Last night news happened”

    1. Doug Daniel says:

      That last line’s a belter!

    2. This would be worth a license fee !

    3. Nana Smith says:

      Brilliant. Daily mail I’m not reading that….

    4. The ?#?STV? debate ?#?Audience? ?#?Rigged? in favour of ?#?NO?? Surely #NO!
      A post found on a yes page by a man who was SUPPOSED to be part of tonight’s audience in The Debate on STV…
      “I hope your all sitting comfortably, for what you are about to hear is shocking and shows the extent the powers at be will go to get a no vote :
      I was selected as a yes voter to attend tonight’s debate. I turned up, eagerly awaiting to get stuck in and ask some serious questions like about the Clair oilfield, public sector pension act and a lot of other important issues. When I got to the front and asked to clear security, that i was told that ipsos Mori had not processed the paper work and I would not get in! I phoned the rep from ipsos and was told that was bullshit. All the yes people that they had put forward had not been selected and had been replaced by no voters. That’s around 30-40 people in that audience that have been swapped in favour of no. You may ask the significance of this. Well I have reliably been informed that a poll will be carried out after the debate to see what the audience thought an to ask them the referendum question!”.
      Not surprised. Makes you wonder though. Westminster seems to be pulling every string it has, to ensure it keeps Scotland. Just been told, as I write this, that the Head of Ipsos MORI – the person in charge of The Debate’s audience selection – is friends with David Cameron. All audience members may have been required to sign the Official Secrets Act.
      A fair debate? Nah, but it’s left us irate.
      LikeLike · · Share
      Douglas Caldow, Irene Anderson, David Churchley and 9 others like this.
      17 shares

      Jane Carnall Really? Because the debate was filmed live last night, and at a guess, the audience were being let in after five pm. So this man says he had access after business hours to an Ipsos Mori rep who was prepared to tell an unknown selectee that STV rigged their audience selection? I call BS.
      3 hrs · Like

      Irene Anderson I know of another YES voter who went along and was told her paperwork had been messed up too. She wasn’t allowed in either!
      2 hrs · Unlike · 1

      Jane Carnall Irene, that may be so, but the story John McArdle is passing on raises a lot of credibility red flags.
      1 hr · Like

      Douglas Caldow Confused as to how you assume the rep for this wouldn’t be available. Its pretty common to work outside 9-5 when the event you have a part in running is in the evening.
      7 mins · Like

      John McArdle I think this allegation should be properly investigated to see if there’s any substance to it or not.
      6 mins · Like · 1

      John McArdle Questions must be asked.
      5 mins · Like · 1

      John McArdle Irene Anderson – Can you make contact with the Yes voter you know of? I’d like to talk to her.
      4 mins · Like

      Jane Carnall I agree, John – if it’s true it’s damning. I just note that the form in which the story is told makes me think it’s likely to be untrue. But
      4 mins · Like

      John McArdle Agree Jane – It must be substantiated and the source identified – and allegations cross checked with staff
      3 mins · Like

      John McArdle It might not actually come under Electoral Fraud but it is just as grave an allegation in moral and democratic terms
      2 mins · Like

      John McArdle “Around 30-40 people in that audience that have been swapped in favour of no” – would be enough to make a substantial difference
      1 min · Like

      Jane Carnall If it’s true. It would be just as damning to launch false allegations about audience manipulation that turned out to be complete nonsense based on an anonymous post on a discussion board.
      Just now · Like
      John McArdle

    5. @ Black Triangle (Thanks for this) – Sad it will go nowhere

      But can’t say I’m surprised. Won’t do any good, would all be denied by STV. No journalist will pick this up and it would never get published anyway.

      Was very surprised at STV choice of Ipsos Mori though noted links with Tories previously.

    6. paul says:

      I have just come of the phone to STV and they said that the audience selection was down entirely to the polling company. They did say though that they had a conversation with the man who made the claims and said that they will investigate it. STV have assured me that their stance on the referendum is one of being neutral I told them that you wouldn’t think so with their output so far. It would be good if others could call them to apply a bit of pressure on STV to be fair as that is all we ask.

    7. TD says:

      Black Triangle

      If there is any evidence to back this up, let’s get it on the table. If there isn’t, let’s not set a hare running.

    8. Thanks Paul & TD – Will join you in the effort

    9. Ken500 says:

      The Debate was show to a wide audience and often for the first tine the rest of Britain and the wider world have favourable insight to the debate and the arguments around the Referendum issues.

    10. Tattie-bogle says:

      what about the lady who ponsonby body swerved when she asked how much oil had underwritten for the UK

    11. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Ken500

      The wider World, ie outside the UK, and many in the UK, couldn’t see it online as STV’s servers crashed.

      I live in France and didn’t see it although someone I know in the USA managed half-way to get a feed, albeit buffering every 2 minutes.

      I canae be ersed watching the recording, which seems to be working, if you thread your way through the STV website.

    12. I’ve just got off the phone to STV – they said theey’ve had many calls and the producers are investigating.

      I warned them that a full statement regarding the allegations must be produced as if their answers were unsatisfactory I would be taking the matter up with the Electoral Commission Ofcom and my elected representatives.

      We wait and see.

    13. Thepnr says:

      Despite what the food critic had to say my opinion is that last nights “debate” WILL be a game changer.

      1,500,000 Scots intending to vote YES will work all the harder to get the message across.

      I’ve thought I was already doing as much as I can but I was fooling myself. I will no longer take the bullshit from the media and will double my efforts. I will be made redundant before the end of the month and for the first time in my life will be knocking on doors canvassing for a Yes.

      If we all do the same we will end this so called Union once and for all for our own sake. Pick yourself up if your feeling low and get in there with the head down. You won’t get another chance so don’t blow this one.

    14. heedtracker says:

      The way Darling kept saying can’t you take a joke, was a really bad joke basically. You’re a fing piece of sh…, just kidding. Oh come on it’s just a wee joke, you dictator, just kidding, Yes voters are blood and soil nazi’s, just kidding, I’m not a crook, just kidding…

    15. Indy_Scot says:

      Does anyone know how many more TV debates there will be before the vote.

    16. mogabee says:

      That’s pretty well done, especially the line about Smart.

    17. Scots Renewables says:

      I received the YES leaflet today and the NO leaflet. Chalk and cheese. The YES leaflet is bright, brash, big, full of upbeat information. The NO leaflet is small, petty, negative and eminently binworthy.

      If I had to summarise first impressions of the leaflets, I would say that YES looks like the future, NO looks like the past. The best thing the official YES campaign has done so far IMO.

      It’s a bit of a cheer-up after last night’s debate really.

      And . . . is the Daily Record turning?
      Independence referendum debate: Undecided voters reveal how first TV showdown altered their opinions

      Not much of a story – it’s a sample of 4, but they are all voting YES!

    18. heedtracker says:

      Its really worth checking out just how much of an oddball, clown, as much use as chocolate tea pot Darling really was in the run up to, during and aftermath of the whole 2008 bank crash itself.

      How many of most vulnerable people among us have died at the hands of austerity ATOS and just how richer has Flipper, Bliar, Crash, all the City boys made themselves?

    19. Muscleguy says:

      @heedtracker

      It was like those neanderthals who when you complain about their racism and/or sexism etc reply that was ‘just banter’. Just like all those defending Top Gear as it’s racism was also ‘just banter’.

      I thought Darling lost the audience on that one and Alex scored some hits there.

      Basically Darling refused to answer any question in a straight manner. Alex was a bit like that but he did answer a lot of questions as asked as well. Though he missed a number of open goals as well. I’m merely an old champion debater way back in my schooldays not a politician but I saw a number of opportunities for good sharp jabs to the jaw that were just ignored. I’ll defer to Alex’s superior political judgement for the moment but he really could sharpen up his game.

    20. M4rkyboy says:

      As much as i appreciate the work the SNP have done in getting us this far and the competence with which they run Holyrood i can’t help but think that at this stage of the campaign they are proving to be a tactical liability for the movement.
      The problem is that the SNP exist and have to operate within THE system-a system whose parameters and terms are set by their opponents.
      The SNP are hamstrung by their own success insofar as they have to exercise a party line to maintain their electoral credibility and they are unable to show any form of weakness.
      The FM had a duty last night to represent the office he holds and a responsibility to represent the SNP’s singular position on these matters.
      IMO the SNP should have stepped back and allowed the Yes campaign to function in the role it was created for and assumed the role of enabler,which,to me,is the only role it has ever had.
      It has enabled us to have this referendum by being the vehicle which we could all hitch our wagons to, but now i think it threatens to drag us all down with it if it’s own narrow course is the only path on offer.

    21. Dorothy Devine says:

      Brilliant Dateline , just brilliant.

    22. Nana Smith says:

      @Scots Renewables

      I received my leaflet from the SG this morning and totally agree with you. It is bright and upbeat and has the positive reasons for voting YES.

      What have the No lot have, nothing, no vision, no hope.

    23. Patrick Roden says:

      Just Brilliant, I actually laughed out loud at the way the female reporters high heels could be heard clicking as she walked across the bridge then the street.

      Talking about strange goings on at IpsosMori, this appeared on twitter yesterday:

      Ipsos phoned a family home to do a telephone poll and asked if they could speak to the son who was 20, because they desperately needed people from this age group,

      Ipsos were told that he wouldn’t be back for about an hour, but Ipsos said they would phone back..and they did.

      The field worker for Ipsos asked the young man how he would be voting and he replied that he was voting Yes.

      The Ipsos person said ok, but can you hold for a moment, however as often happens the field worker hadn’t muted her phone properly and the young man heard what she was saying.

      She called her line manager and told him that the young man was voting Yes, so he told her to tell the young mna that there was a technical glitch and Ipsos would phone him right back,

      At the time of the tweet, 4 hours had passed and Ipsos hadn’t phoned back!

      It seems that Ipsos is having a lot of problems with ‘Technical Glitches’ but I’m sure the No campaign are happy with them.

    24. Timorous beastie says:

      New posts, please share

      First one may require parental guidance…

      todayinscotland | The Referendum Blues
      https://todayinscotland.wordpress.com/

    25. Kenny says:

      What’s most interesting about that Daily Record article is the comments. Look at the massive upvoting no pro-Yes comments and the massive downvoting on pro-No comments. That may be slightly twisted by Wingers who’ve gone and looked from here, but I’m not convinced that can be the whole story. And while it looks a lot like those undecideds were already leaning towards a Yes (as I think most of us suspect most undecideds are, deep down), the fact that Darling couldn’t swing one of them to a No, or even a No-leaning undecided, is a pretty positive thing.

      I said last night that Salmond needed a punchline – “so you’re saying that all BT’s scare stories are just jokes?” The more I think about it though, maybe he didn’t. Maybe he’s actually rather cleverer than that. Because today, people are saying “what was all that crap about aliens and driving on the right?” and Yes voters will be able to jump in and say “have you read this article on Wings about the scare stories they’ve been feeding you?” Ridicule is actually a pretty effective weapon in politics if it gets people questioning the whole credibility of the arguments. Once people have seen how stupid some of BT’s stories really are, the currency threats and the SNP’s level-headed, persistent argument that it’s all just campaign tactics will gain a lot more traction. The key thing is that we get the message out there as loudly as we can.

    26. Lesley-Anne says:

      Love this Dateline Scotland crew. Am I right in thinking that our Stu was in the group who were used to *ahem* trial the Ian Smart OFF switch. 😛

      @Black Triangle

      What you have reported in your posts is utterly disgusting. That said of course I do not think any of us on here are entirely surprised about the carry on’s you encountered last night. For quite some considerable time now we have all been suspecting that audiences for these sort of programmes are *cough* fixed. This does not mean I condone the actions of IPSOS last night, far from it, it’s just the norm as far as I can see.

      I’m not sure how the actual make up of the audience last night will affect people individually who were sitting at home watching. However, I’m just wondering if the *ahem* alternate audience members who did get in were all NO supporters then I think this goes a long way to explaining the barracking we all witnessed of Alex Salmond last night.

      I wish you all the best with your efforts to get to the bottom of this incident. No one should be permitted to get away with such unashamed audience manipulation without being call to account and explain themselves in open ‘court’ to the general public who they obviously duped by their,IPSOS’s, actions.

    27. Full details submitted in a complaint to Ofcom Reference #1267204285 – Result to be published on their website in fourteen days.

    28. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      We have visitor who works polling for Ipsos Mori. Some of the polls this person gets are hard to do as they are so obviously biased and full of leading questions. However the questions are not made up by Ipsos Mori. They are devised by whoever is commissioning the poll.

      So despite STV stating that Ipsos Mori constructed the audience this calls into question whether STV gave Ipsos Mori definite instructions about the composition of it

    29. Ken500 says:

      They should not be monitoring any of the audience. They should give folk a ticket who want to come in. If their is any manipulation they should no be allowed to hold the debate.

      Some folk love Alex, some folk hate Alex. The majority love him and hate the Union.

    30. HandandShrimp says:

      Andy Burnham and Darling may be saying that various comments were a joke now but they were taken seriously at the time. If all the stuff about roads, mobile phones, attacks from space, end of civilisation as we know it, etc., etc., were jokes then one is inclined to wonder why Better Together are not taking the debate seriously. Are their comments on a currency union, the EU and Trident also jokes?

    31. ronnie anderson says:

      Dateline Scotland. Thank you for a fair & unbias News

      Report. I would hope that the Bbc see your reporting style

      & copy your factual reporting.

    32. Ken500 says:

      Polls are PR Companies making £Millions, often of public money. Against the public interest. The Piper calls the tune. That is why they are manipulated.

      NO stooping so low, just rebounds. They get what they deserve.

    33. goldenayr says:

      Brilliant stuff,promote the ticker typer.

      Talking of TV,everyone registered?

      http://www.referendumtv.net/category/referendumtvlive/

    34. TD says:

      Black Triangle

      Well done for submitting a complaint to Ofcom. They will however just reject your complaint unless you have provided evidence.

    35. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Here is a timely reminder about our assets and wealth and the Westminster mindset.

      This is Margaret Thatcher hatchet man talking with loathing aplenty about Scotland, our wealth and Westminster’s entitlement to steal it all.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNRmugH6oBE#t=74

      Fast forward to last week and the oil that never was and see what will be our duty if there is a No vote?

      If we vote No we will deserve this a aplenty. We cannot say we have not been warned.

    36. msean says:

      Is there a Mr Darling/bt off switch

    37. Ken500 says:

      People are not concerned about currency, Crown or EU.

      They are not game changers.

      As usual NO are totally out of touch.

      The sight of Darling just puts folks back and YES votes up. The Man who bankrupted Britain.

    38. David McCann says:

      I just love Dateline Scotland, not least the ticker tape marching display at the foot.
      Included in the financial markets are such gems as Crud Oil, Fax Paper, Bullshit etc etc.

      Below this the following news items; Ruth Davidson wins Selkirk Break Dancing competition, General Public too stupid to be trusted with bees, Mug chipped in Dunkeld,and my fav, Edinburgh Zoo turns away homeless monkey- “We’ve got tonns”
      Brilliant!

    39. handyandy says:

      wish we had something like the the Daily Show here in Britain would maybe do the politics/ politicians some good being humiliated.

    40. TD – Sure – But it’s always good to make a racket when there’s fraud and propaganda about. I’ve long since given up any naive illusions that there is such a thing as justice in the UK. It’s all a bloody sham.

    41. In other words – another excellent reason to vote YES and start afresh 😉

    42. Paradox says:

      Well Boris is going for Prime Minister as a Tory politician. That will be Scotland plundered and humiliated again.

      See newsnet Scotland
      http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/4870-rattled-boris-johnson-shows-contempt-for-scotland-in-mayoral-battle

    43. David Wardrope says:

      I’m a little disappointed by the debate. So much time and effort has been put in to get the numerous other opportunities and issues related to independence out to the Scottish public, and in the space of one 2 hour TV debate, Scotland is once again focussed on the fucking currency union pish again. Seriously detracting from far more pressing social and economic issues and I’m angry it’s happened.

    44. TD says:

      Black Triangle

      Agree with that.

    45. Lesley-Anne says:

      I wonder if the makers of Dateline Scotland could get together with the crowd at Referendum T.V.;)

    46. Nana Smith says:

      Wednesday, August 6th & 7th, 2014 at 04:00 PM

      Black Isle Showgrounds in Muir of Ord

      Yes at the Black Isle Show

      Wednesday, August 06, 2014 at 06:30 PM

      Merkinch Community Centre in Inverness

      RIC Inverness – Merkinch Mass Canvas

    47. Andy says:

      Ever wondered what happens when MSM are not involved in a poll. http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-en-readers-split-on-debate-1-3500421

      Taking out the undecided, thats 57% yes 43% no!!! WE CAN DO THIS!!

    48. David McCann says:

      Lesley-Anne.
      Jack Foster of Dateline Scotland is already on the team of Referendum TV

    49. Thepnr says:

      We’ve listened to all kinds of crap from the MSM over the past two years. What I fail to understand is why so many Yes voters see last nights debate as such a failure.

      Why should this be so important to the detriment of all the positive arguments you have heard here on this site and others that would make you so negative?

      Last nights debate really was no big deal, what worries me is that if some of you can become so despondent due to a CLAIM by the bias media that Darling won, then it seems you must be as gullible as the “no information” lot.

      Last night and today we have seen an onslaught of negativity, not just in the media but right here on this site. The trolls came mob handed and many Wingers turned and ran it would seem.

      Don’t fall for it. I’ll bet even some of you genuine supporters have said exactly this in the past yet failed to hear your own advice.

      This little episode has in my view been the most successful use of propaganda yet by the British state. Get back on track folks, shrug this off and come out fighting.

      You owe it to future generations as well as yourselves.

    50. YESGUY says:

      I enjoyed “most ” of the debate and found Darling to be negative and never answered a question with out some threat or spin added. What was the point of the debate?

      Was it to give reasons for and against the referendum ?

      A chance for YES to put forward their policy’s and hopes for a future iScotland ?

      I think Mr Salmond did just that.

      Darling on the on the hand came out with spin, lies and never answered a single question. Nothing positive to say about how the benefits of union. Just played the man when cornered.

      This is what we are up against folks.

      Is there anyone out there who can give the benefits to the ordinary Scots of the union ? I doubt it now and thats a huge point to note.

      This was the NT campaigns chance to shine and they reverted to spin and scares and most saw through this.

      And remember folks this is not about A. Salmond. It’s far bigger than that.

      I cannot wait for Sept 18th when we walk this referendum. The NT campaign have nothing to offer but the same old shit and even NO voters are tired of this. Wee eck hardly done himself credit but that may be our fault for bigging him up too much but he did speak for US , gave us a positive view and most folk will have noticed that.

      Don’t be down folks , we knew they would not let Darling put his foot in it, and Big surprise the STV player didn’t work. (Smells like shite ) so twitter and the like would be effected.

      You did notice that the only 2 twitters STV showed where from Labour party stoogies.

      Typical propaganda from the state.

      We ARE winning , the fact they offer us more “powers” says it all. keep the faith and remember it can only get worse as they be come more desperate .

      I am not normally optimistic but meeting YESSERS and reading through sites like these has convinced me the YES vote is far too strong and has momentum. It’s the people at the lower end of the spectrum that will decide as they are the majority. You all know this and should take heart.

      Keep faith everyone we’re almost there.

    51. HandandShrimp says:

      I think the person that put pro plus in Darling’s pint of Red Bull has a lot to answer for, Darling could hardly speak by the end.

    52. Brian Powell says:

      Remember if Boris Johnson ever got to be PM, he advocate building pipelines from Scotland to transport water to the SE when they needed it when there were water shortages.

      It seemed like a joke at the time but with fracking going ahead in the south, and the south depends on aquifers, now doesn’t seem such a joke, no matter who is PM.

      In case you didn’t know, each well requires 4 million gallons of water, each time. The companies usually just draw from the aquifers around.

    53. Just be aware that some Yessers aren’t above making this stuff up. I’ve just been reading the Guardian, where a poster claimed that a ‘techie’ from the BBC told him that they had been manipulating the sound coming from the crowd to favour Darling.

      Only for another poster to point out that the BBC weren’t even the ones who’d broadcasted the debate …

      So my money’s on this all being cooked up by some sore loser of a nat.

    54. YESGUY says:

      ThePnr – Nice wee reminder Alex.

      Spot on and everyone needs a reminder now and then.

      Don’t feed the trolls and remember “We are Wingers”

      You can never keep us down for long.

    55. Thepnr says:

      @YESGUY

      Snap! There are pessimists and then there are YES supporters.

      I’m an optimist.

    56. Training Day says:

      @Thepnr

      I don’t think anyone on here is gullible enough to be downhearted by claims from the MSM that Darling ‘won’ – we all expected those claims to be made, and made ad nauseam.

      Many of us though expected a better – or at least a different – performance from Salmond, focusing on the injustices perpetrated by Britain and Westminster, and articulating a robust vision for an independent Scotland. He got some way to doing that, but the currency response was weak, and was bound to be the focus of negative MSM attention thereafter.

      However, not one person (other than the usual trolls) on this site this morning is any less committed to winning on September 18th.

    57. Andrew Morton says:

      FFs folks, it’s ‘biased media’ not ‘bias media’.

      Bias is a noun, biased is an adjective.

      Phew, that’s placated my inner grammar Nazi.

    58. Rory says:

      “knee deep in news”,

      Is that picture of Danny Alexander eating an ice cream real? cause it’s bloody hilarious. Also everytime i see him speak he says “should be taken with a pinch of salt”, bad taste buds danny? must be something in the water down there.

    59. Marian says:

      Some comments elsewhere have remarked on the fact that Darling was wearing spectacles.

      The most obvious reason would be to try and cover up his incessant blinking and eyebrows that have a life of their own when he gets agitated – which is often.

      However another unusual suggestion that had been made is that he was getting help via them – see youtu.be/UAQ-lp0jrHo

    60. Grendel says:

      I’m getting a bit sick of the supposed “yes voter kept out of the STV debate” doing the rounds. No source, no original post, I’ve seen it being cut and pasted and passed on as if it was the person who is sharing who was the person concerned.
      There’s enough crap going on without making stuff up.

    61. Thepnr says:

      @Training Day

      You know what my point is really about?

      It’s don’t let’s do their job for them, sure Salmond maybe could have done better in many’s eyes but for supporters of Yes to draw attention to this just increases the negativity.

      I don’t know about you personally but i have never voted for Salmond or the SNP. So what? I will be voting Yes for a better future in the belief that no matter which party is in power we will succeed in doing a far better job than Westminster can.

      Salmond is a figurehead for a vote for Independence but not the reason for choosing to vote Yes.

      I agree that “not one person (other than the usual trolls) on this site this morning is any less committed to winning on September 18th.”

      I hope like me this morning they are MORE committed.

    62. Thepnr says:

      @Andrew Morton

      Take it your biased against those with poor grammar or spelling 🙂

    63. David Wardrope says:

      I’m not phased by the debate, I know the arguments and the facts related to independence. But a lot are not, as was evidenced by my wife last night joining in with the audience in willing Alex to answer the question on currency (and she is voting Yes). My worry is that the debate gets dragged back into old well trodden ground that answers are available for. This to me is backwards and energy will be used repeating the same points (as I did last night to family members)

    64. Lesley-Anne says:

      David McCann says:

      Lesley-Anne.
      Jack Foster of Dateline Scotland is already on the team of Referendum TV

      Kind of negates my pathetic wee post then doesn’t it David. 😀

    65. @Marian

      Hahahaha, that surely has to be Nat conspiracy theory’s shark-jumping moment.

      Darling wears glasses most of the time, you bam. Just search his name on Google images.

      Next up: Darling is a lizard man!

    66. Dan Huil says:

      Methinks the unionist media rejoices too much. Yet again they claim another “game-changer”. Remember what happened to all the other unionist game-changers – an increase in support for Yes.
      Perhaps politicians and, dare I say it, anoraks like us wingers, get too involved in the political minutiae for our own good.
      Thankfully the people of Scotland have excellent aye-sight.

    67. Giving Goose says:

      There were subtleties to Salmonds approach that are perhaps lost on some people.

      Salmond could have played to his Establishment bogey man image and filleted Darling but that would not have looked good to impressionable viewers; he would have confirmed the MSM portrait of him as a bully and yaaa boo politician.

      Darling, on the other hand came over as a bully and Yaa Boo politician. His finger pointing, interruptions, shouting and body language made him out to be what he actually is – London’s Bully Boy sent up to teach those Scots a lesson.

      He is London’s man and he came over as just that.

      Salmond looked the part of calm, professional First Minister who wearily has to listen to the School Bully Darling while he delivered London’s attempted dressing down.

      Darling’s delivery of “you can’t do this and you can’t do that” will not resonate well with certain parts of the audience.

      In this partisan atmosphere which occasionally can border on the tribal, it’s to be expected that a lot of commentators on Wings would have been baying for and expecting blood, but that is what the MSM want. It would be walking into to trap to fall down to the Westminster level of debate. People are sick to death of that. And that is one of the major reasons people are turning to Yes, as Yes offers an alternative to the partisan Yaa Boo of the commons and the theatrically over hyped version of debate on offer from London.

      The point is this; we don’t want it and we are not going to Ape it.

      We’ll take our cue from more sophisticated democracies.

      Salmond was sophisticated and mature in contrast to London’s Pet Bully Boy Darling.

    68. Lesley-Anne says:

      To be fair Charlie I think he was wearing different style of glasses last night, more of a Joe 90 style than his usual pair. (Damn think I’ve just shown my age to be over 21 … AGAIN! 😛 ) Anyone who remembers Joe 90 will remember what happened when he put the glasses on hence the conspiracy theory about Darling receiving *ahem* instructions. 😀

    69. paul says:

      Grendel.
      STV admitted that this person was real if you read my previous post.

    70. west_lothian_questioner says:

      Which currency we have post-indy doesn’t matter all that much. Whose pocket it is in? THAT matters!

    71. Andrew Morton says:

      @Thepnr 2:03 pm

      Wee, smiley faced thing.

    72. #UPDATE – #STV #BigDebate #Audience #Rigged in favour of #NO? I’ve just got off the phone from another lady who was turned away at the door last night.

      She told me that in total – according to STV – fully 65 Yes voters invited to the debate by a member of IPSOS-MORI staff were turned away last night!

      Additionally – Whilst waiting in the queue they were mobbed by #No campaign operatives shoving leaflets into their hands which stated ‘100 questions Salmond refuses to answer’ .

      My source reports that younger girls who were turned away broke into tears of disappointment and my source said she was forced to grab a taxi home in order to watch the debate.

      This is absolutely disgraceful and unacceptable and I will be reporting it to the relevant authorities and the media.

    73. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      “First they ignore you,

      then they laugh at you,

      then they get ‘shouty’,

      and then you win.”

    74. Ken500 says:

      The problem for BT is their affront man is one of the most unpopular Politicans in Britain, lives in London and does not have a vote. In fact totally out of touch. Their message is negative enough but their messager is even more negative. The Man who bankrupted Britain,

    75. Les Wilson says:

      Dateline IS brilliant, had to laugh at the scrolling comment,
      “Ruth Davidson come second in the Selkirk break dancing contest”, what a hoot.

      By the way this morning on STV, they talked about the debate and said this will all be repeated in 3 weeks, which led me to thinking.
      Has Alex Salmond deliberately lead Darling into an over confident mode,in order to deliver a knockout in the next event? Hmmm?

    76. Seasick Dave says:

      Charlie

      What’s with all the unnecessary ‘nat’ stuff?

      Independence is for all of us and a chance for us all to contribute to a better society.

      Why would you not want to be part of such an exciting movement?

    77. Grendel says:

      Paul, I don’t see a previous post from you. Sorry, what time was it at, it’ll make it easier for me to find it.

    78. west_lothian_questioner says:

      Dateline Scotland… a bit puerile, not very funny. Must try harder…

    79. muttley79 says:

      Good to see that the poster Charlie Murphy is prepared to give us the positive case for the Union, how Westminster will deliver the progressive society we desire. Hold on…

    80. Andy-B says:

      Great send-up of the union and its media and political puppets, a joy to watch, who knows it may continue to run on the SBC after a yes vote, and why not.

    81. Quentin Quale says:

      Quickly – what do remember most about the debate? A shouty person continually asking for the answer to a question time after time and which had already been answered, and getting more and more animated and flustered? I did. As did many others. This will not turn anyone into a No voter. This referendum is much bigger than the poor performance of the debate last night. As was pointed out yesterday the headlines were already in progress. How could the MSM all of a sudden turn around after months of the most despicable news agenda and say ‘Salmond won – yay, all vote Yes’? It is up to all of us to counter all the negativity and engage with everyone we can about the big picture. Our country or a region run by Westminster?

    82. Nation Libre says:

      There must surely now be a whole campaign with a picture of Darling and a speech bubble with each threat, followed by a ‘Just Kidding!’

    83. Lesley-Anne says:

      The BBC say they are to hold a debate later this month Les but I’m not sure if their debate is the same one that STV referred to when you watched them this morning though. Typical STV/BBC clear as thick mud! 😀

      A second debate is to take place on the BBC later this month.

      http://tinyurl.com/nqw742c

    84. Ken500 says:

      Anyone who wants to watch the ‘debate’ it is on BBC Parliamentary from 7pm tonight.

    85. Famou15 says:

      I have to laugh at much of the No propaganda. They want to truss Scotland up like a turkey to sustain the UK economy. I for one will not vote for Christmas. I will be voting YES because I have seen right through their gameplan.

      I recommend you all do likewise.

    86. Ken500 says:

      BBC Parliamentary Channel 7pm tonight.

      STV shareholders making more money, they must have sold it on to the BBC.

    87. Les Wilson says:

      Lesley-Anne says:

      Well it was just because it was reported on STV, they did not say it was on BBC. So I assumed, rightly or wrongly that it was being repeated on STV. We will find out in due course I suspect. Cheers.

    88. Lesley-Anne says:

      UIsually here or here abouts to lend the most helpingest of helping hands Les. 😉 😛

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @TD says: 6 August, 2014 at 11:37 am

      “If there is any evidence to back this up, let’s get it on the table. If there isn’t, let’s not set a hare running.”

      Ach! It’s aw yon Kemny MacWhaskles faut. The gadgie wha wis subterfumigated haes nane o you corroberabberation onywey.

    90. Andy-B says:

      @Black Triangle.

      It comes as no surprise that the debate was rigged, over on Craig Murray’s blog, it tells you how IPSOS/MORI were calling the shots on the debate, in agreement with STV, no wonder the audience was loaded with naysayers.

      http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/08/liveblogging-the-great-debate/#comments

    91. Midgehunter says:

      Managed to see most of the debate live from Frankfurt. 🙂

      If STV has tried to manipulate the audience towards a NO tendence then then it should be investigated; my impression was however that they wanted more of a gladitorial spectacle.

      Darling had apparently been trained to go into an attack mode and not give the opponent time to really answer, a bit Anus lite. He was very evasive and not really interested in actually answering questions.

      I was a little bit disappointed in Alex. He has all the facts and knowledge at his disposel but his presentation yesterday was underwhelming, the delivery was in part bad. He let himself get on to the back foot with currency and seemed too defensive.

      He had 4 topics EU, NHS, pensions and currency which he could have used to get Darling on the run, the project fear aliens thing was ill-advised and just wasted time.

      BT will be clamouring for a second debate now, so get prepared and come out fighting.

      And while we’re at it, too many commentators here were claiming victory, Darling smashed, he’s no chance etc. before the debate and see what happened. They should never be underestimated.

      Bit of a rant, sorry, but I wasn’t too happy with last night despite the DK percentages.

    92. YESGUY says:

      Charlie –

      can you give me a couple of positive reasons for Scotlands place in the union. Ones that matter to a working class guy who really would like to hear them. I was a strong NO voter once but watched as my country was bullied and lied to over issues . No positives just scares.

      I served this countries armed forces and have a deep respect for all the folk in the Uk but see Scotlands political landscape way different from the rUK

      Give me a couple of reasons for the union that should matter to me please ?

    93. Brotyboy says:

      @ Giving Goose

      Great post. Agree that Salmond was not playing to us, but to the undecideds and the media’s portrayal of him.

      Many will have seen another side to him and will not have particularly liked the Darling they saw in comparison.

    94. Haggis Hunter says:

      The whole thing is a stitch up. Selecting audience members, BBC better together news at 10 etc. only hope that next time audience selection will be scrutised by the Yes campaign

    95. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry for going O/T but thought folks in Fife might like to see how the campaign is going in West Fife.

      http://tinyurl.com/lqkbmdp

    96. Les Wilson says:

      Lesley-Anne says:

      Lesley, you would think that should be a police job. Oh, wait a minute……..

    97. Ken500 says:

      Don’t feed the trolls or posters get banned as well. Stu is too busy to have to patrol the site.

    98. Nana Smith says:

      @Lesley-Anne

      Geez that’s disgusting.

    99. Lesley-Anne says:

      Les I would agree with you but apparently it was pushed through a letter box. I’m not really sure police would actually be able to do that much. Still COWARDS always do the bravest acts … oh wait a minute … 😀

      I want to say I can’t believe it Nana but we are talking about unionist supporters here so anything is possible. Cowards will always do this sort of thing then run away and cower in the corner and hope no one finds them.

    100. YESGUY says:

      @lesley Anne

      They get very very angry when they realise they are losing and resort to abusing the dead. Unionist trolls are a disgusting bunch of nobody’s .

      Shameful ("Tractor" - Ed)s to their own people.

    101. Andrew Morton says:

      What have veterinarians got against Jim Sillars anyway?

    102. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 6 August, 2014 at 12:16 pm:

      “Its really worth checking out just how much of an oddball, clown, as much use as chocolate tea pot Darling really was in the run up to, during and aftermath of the whole 2008 bank crash itself.”

      Don’t know how many noticed but Darling told the same old lie about Salmond claiming he had EU legal advice. I’ve challanged many Labour and other Naysayers on that one and have still to find one who could quote where and/or when Salmond ever made such a claim. Almost to the one they all claimed it was during the Andrew Neil TV interview. I was carrying a short transcript around with me for a while and, when I read it out to them, not one could dispute it.

      Here’s the bit : –

      NEIL: Have you sought advice from your own Scottish law officers in this matter?
      SALMOND: We have, yes, in terms of the debate.
      NEIL: And what do they say?
      SALMOND: You can read that in the documents that we’ve put forward, which argue the position that we’d be successor states.

      They read it and then say, “Aye! That’s it”.
      I then point out that the question asked was, : –
      “Have you sought advice “from your own Scottish law officers” in this matter? and ask if Salmond was asked if he had legal advice from his own Scottish Law Officers how do you manage to claim it was from the EU?

      The usual result is a swift exit stage left.
      One, though, that still continued with the sham was that Smart lawyer character that used to write in Labour Hame.
      He still never quoted a source for when Salmond was supposed to make the claim.

      So next time someone comes away with that lie – you know how to call then out.

    103. bunter says:

      Will the BBC line up YouGov for their version of the big debate? We know how much they like them.

    104. Lesley-Anne says:

      I agree YESGUY, they are the worst kind of TROLL. They have NO answers to any question, they are terrified of tomorrow, they have no way of thinking for themselves, they are feart, they are GUTLESS COWARDS plain and simple!

      Andrew Morton says:

      What have veterinarians got against Jim Sillars anyway?

      I’m not going to bite on that one Andrew cause I DID actually think that to myself when I first saw it. 😀

      I think it actually is meant to mean veterans as in former military personnel. If that is the case thwen I’m glad they are no longer in the military cause I’d hate to have GUTLESS COWARDLY MUPPETS like these *ahem* protecting me, my family and my country!

    105. Auld Rock says:

      As part of my third degree in Social Science one of my subjects was ‘Statistics’. Added to this I also have a degree in Mathematics, during breaks I used to have long chats with the chap taking the statistics class and we discussed how a poll can be tampered with by adjusting the ‘Weightings’ until you arrive at the result that the client wants. Now I have long suspected that, as they say in Hamlet, “there is something rotten in the State of Denmark”, for the opinion polls being reproduced in the unionist MSM bear no resemblance to reports from canvassers up and down Scotland.

      As for barring ‘YES’ supporters in what is supposed to be by LAW a balanced output surely if true then someone has broken ‘Electoral Law’? Any lawyers out there?

      Auld Rock

    106. Les Wilson says:

      YESGUY says:

      Agreed!

    107. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Robet Pfeffers

      Do you have a copy of that transcript, proper?

      It would be good if you could publish it here?

      Unless, of course that the bit you published above is verbatim and not your recollection?

      Thanks, either way

      BtP

    108. Nana Smith says:

      Wow below is a comment on the Curtice article from the guardian. It is excellent….

      People are not overly concerned at the polls. How many thousands were at the Rangers v Hibernian game as the debate was being aired live on television ?

      The Glasgow Fair fortnight is just finished and the Paisley Fair is upon us and many are still relaxing on holiday abroad. Edinburgh Trades too.

      It’s been a busy summer of sport with the World Cup, Wimbledon and the Commonwealth Games and people are just recovering from sport saturation as the Ryder Cup begins.

      How John Curtice can read that Salmond needs a ‘gamechanger’ at this time, is unreasonable to say the least. There is PLENTY of time for the Polls to move. There is six weeks to go, and let’s be honest, a lot can happen in that time.

      Boris for possible Tory Leader and possible Prime Minister, should swing a few more toward ‘YES’.

      People need a chance to re-engage, and they will, nearer the referendum. ‘For Salmond to admit the game is up’, is simply ludicrous Mr Curtice. A man of your reputation should know better, but writing for the Unionist Guardian should perhaps be a warning to the YES Campaign that your ‘impartiality’ has been compromised, and we can expect much more partisan Unionist comment from you.

      You are indeed from the BBC stable Mr Curtice, and it shows.

    109. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Does anyone, anywhere have definitive information that Curtice and others, in the rUK are in fact on a retainer from the Home Office, or Treasury, as noted experts and consultants in their fields?

      Thus a safe on-message carrier to go to by the MSM, especially the BBC.

      I heard rumours about that some time ago but I never saw any proof.

      Another name mentioned is Hugh Pennington, who is a card carrying member of Labour and a leading light(?), of Academics for Naw.

    110. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry for going O/T again folks but it looks like we have yet another new ally to the cause. 😛

      This is in the Telegraph.

      http://tinyurl.com/pu7fkds

    111. Ken500 says:

      Darling needs glasses to hear

    112. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Tweet from Cameron re Boris, in the D Torygraph

      David Cameron

      Great news that Boris plans to stand at next year’s general election – I’ve always said I want my star players on the pitch.

      As opposed to in the dugout?

    113. Nana Smith says:

      @Lesley-Anne

      Saw that this morning and I think this clown wants a pipeline from Scotland to take our water down south. Something to do with fracking if I remember rightly.

      Would need to try and find the relevant article.

    114. Ken500 says:

      Some Academics in Scotland are getting £Millions of taxpayers money from Union supporters, without declaring a personal interest. This could affect their professional judgement.

    115. Piemonteis says:

      O/T

      I was talking to my mum after last night’s debate. She’s undecided but seems ready to jump to yes. The debate disappointed her because the big issue she’s concerned about is defence, which wasn’t addressed. I’m surprised that’s the issue she’s worried about, to be honest, rather than the more oft-repeated issues such as currency, etc. She also mentioned this to me a couple of months ago, but I wasn’t quite sure what to tell her, apart from general remarks on aggressive foreign policy, Trident and military mis-spend.

      Anyway, I had a look at the reference materials here on Wings and nothing is what I would call persuasive. In the past few months, she’s become aware of the mass media bias, particularly the BBC, so I’m wary of introducing her to anything that she’d view as too ‘partial’ to the Yes side. She says she’s still to read the relevant section in the white paper, but the section on defence is hardly inspiring.

      I linked her to the Royal Society of Edinburgh debate on youtube, which I think is pretty balanced. The fact she can’t stand George Robertson, who appears in the debate, might also help. Can anyone offer any other material that might come in handy when she comes back to me with further questions? I’m acting on the precept that all informed information facilitates movement to yes.

      Sorry to go so off-topic.

    116. chalks says:

      @Thepnr

      SNAP.

      God help them though, they have just galvanized thousands onto the streets to campaign for Yes.

    117. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Ken 500

      Only £500 (on expenses natch) for a wifi pair of glasses with earpiece, to be paired over a bluetooth connection from your smartphone in your pocket.

      Even slightly cheaper is a Bluetooth and GSM pocket jammer with a 15 to 20 m radius and a 90- minutes battery life.

      Available in the UK and looks suspiciously like the glasses Flipper was wearing, coincidentally.

    118. Ken500 says:

      Curtice is receiving £Millions of public money from BT (without a mandate)

    119. Murray McCallum says:

      I love these episodes. A great relief from the monotony of fear and the Scottish news where “you” are.

    120. Andy-B says:

      O/T The Economist comparing Alex Salmond to Nigel Farage, oh how the unionist lying press love to whip themselves up into a frenzy.

      http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2014/08/scotlands-independence-debate

    121. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Oiemontais

      The lectures by the Irish born, now Scots, consultant gynaecologist who warns about the privatisation of the Scottish NHS, if there is a No voe.

      I cannot remember her name but maybe someone else could dig up a reference.

      It is a cracker to point out to women and men.

    122. Jim Marshall says:

      BtP

      I think you mean Dr Philippa Whitford and she is an oncologist at crosshouse hospital in Kilmarnock. Easily found on Youtube by putting her name in the search box.

    123. Nana Smith says:

      @Bugger (the Panda)

      Is this what you mean?

      Dr Philippa Whitford

      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-top-surgeon-becomes-3836205

    124. Training Day says:

      @BtP

      Curtice has a fellowship of the ESRC:

      http://www.esrc.ac.uk/research/major-investments/future-of-uk-and-scotland/fellowships.aspx

      which is largely funded by Vince Cable’s Department for Business, Innovation and Skills

      http://www.esrc.ac.uk/about-esrc/what-we-do/index.aspx

      Just sayin..

    125. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Piemontais, for you

      Ta JM, I got the ology bit right though?

    126. YESGUY says:

      Aw Charlie you disappoint me.

      I gave you a whole hour to give me 2 reasons for the union and you don’t answer. Maybe you buggered off to annoy some other YESSERS on other sites.

      Shame , i was willing to listen.

      Still, if there is anyone out there willing to take up the challenge of giving 2 reasons FOR the union i promise to listen(read) with an open mind.

      Funny as the polls say No campaigners are winning and there are thousands of them out there…..

      Any Takers ????

    127. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Trainind Days

      Nice one.

      So he is essentially on a retainer as a “stooge” for the Union?

    128. Jim Marshall says:

      I definitely think that the audience at the debate were from rent a mob. Very unruly and were allowed to heckle without restraint. Brought the proceedings down to the level of an amateur pantomime. Perhaps this was the intention though.

    129. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Training Days

      Surprised not to see Prof Tomkins on the second list.

    130. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Jim Marshall

      I never saw it, for STV technical reasons, but a friend streamed it to me over Skype.

      I did give up after the first break though.

      It sounded to me more like a Friday night at the Glasgow Alhambra.

      Either that or Calderpark at feeding time.-)

    131. Piemonteis says:

      Thanks Bugger and all,

      The Dr. Whitford video is excellent. In fact I’ve just bookmarked it so that I don’t forget later on, but in terms of convincing family, NHS issues don’t carry much currency with them.

      My mum seems inexplicably hung up on defence. Any ideas?

    132. Jim Marshall says:

      BtP

      Or Blantyre Co Hall on a Friday night. Free gumshields at the door.

    133. K1 says:

      Flipper wears rimless glasses with thin legs, if you check out stock photos these are his regular frames. The ones he had on last night were definitely not his regular ones. Thick framed top with thick legs. Something definitely ‘odd’ about this.

    134. YESGUY says:

      Piemonteis

      Cant help you there but will say that joining NATO will give us all the muscle we will need in defense. The Uk/Iceland gap is THE most strategic point on the Nato area . This is where the old Soviet Block would send their Boomers (nuke subs) onto the Atlantic.

      We have NO cover in Scottish waters as it is relying on Norway to cover us. The nearest Navel base is in Portsmouth. It takes a good day to reach our waters and that would be way too late. Normally, and i kid you not, a passing trawler will tweet that someone is in our waters that shouldn’t be. Nato will welcome Scotland hands down.

      After inde Scotland will use Faslane as a HQ for the Scottish Defence force and Scots Navy. NO nukes < conventional forces only. Many other countries have small Armed forces and manage just fine and if war should be declared ( God forbid ) the whole country would be mobilised .

      I spent a good few years as a soldier and know a wee bit about the Nato set up. There is bags of stuff online.

      Who does you mother fear would attack us P. ?

      Me can't see anyone trying as we have allies all over the world , politically and militarily . We would share our duties with the rUK and Norway as well as Europe as regards home waters.

      Hope this helps.

    135. handclapping says:

      @Piemonteis
      Have you asked her how the aircraft carriers defend her?

    136. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Piemontais

      There is a good article, recently here, regarding the uselessness and cost of Trident and its successor.

      You could also point out in passing that the last time the Russian “Fleet” dropped anchor in the Moray Firth, to shelter from a storm, the RN knew nothing about it and it was only a tweet from some Scottish fisherman which was passed to them before they realised.

      They have no real warships based in Scotland and had to scramble a destroyer and a crew from Portsmouth who arrived three days later after they had gone.

      There no longer any long range sea surveillance aeroplane based in Scotland either, any more.

      That my shock her and demonstrate that Westminster does not ensure the UK’s never mind Scotland’s defence security.

    137. Lesley-Anne says:

      You’re right Nana, I remember reading about Boris and his “BIG” plans to build a pipeline, at OUR expense no doubt and Barnett free of course, down to the S.E. of England. 😀

      Piemonteis, I’m not sure if these will help but here are about half a dozen links to videos all about the N.H.S. they are by people like Dr Phillipa Whitford, Dr Catriona Pagliari and Allyson Pollock. Hope they can be of some help. 😉

      http://tinyurl.com/m6ce72b

      http://tinyurl.com/knqd65d

      http://tinyurl.com/lk9x5ro

      http://tinyurl.com/kfcp7ut

      http://tinyurl.com/lgnonsr

      http://tinyurl.com/lo6hpnm

    138. Faltdubh says:

      Curtice is wrong again (shock horror).

      Yes do not need a game changer. The game changer is people themselves who are now finally engaged.

      There is definite movement to Yes. If it’s enough to win the ref, time will tell, but every day I’m out or I’m up at my parents house or when I take in a route I’ve not seen for a few weeks – there’s always a sticker or poster for Yes I seen on a house, shed, vehicle, wall or a badge/label on someone’s jumper or jacket.

      Trying not to harp on about last night and I agree 100% with Dave McEwen’s point on another post that what people will remember from this is Darling shouting and Salmond being nice.
      I do think we need to deal better for future debates regards the currency question and I’m sure Yes and Salmond/SNP will be looking at last night’s performance.

      The game changer is momentum. It’s all going one way, but we musn’t slip up like the currency issue last night – we need a positive/firm response when this is asked again (and it will be, BT know this is where they had some success last night – AD spent around 12 mins battering on about it).

      Salmond also needs to use (if a similar format) his questions better. We need to drill home about the NHS, social justice, equality and reducing poverty. Not going on about aliens, right hand side of the road, slurs at project fear or saying something is in the White Paper.

      We can do it though! And we will.

      Heads up. We are winnig this.

    139. kininvie says:

      @piemonteis

      This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSxuXQCEC7M is a strictly neutral analysis paper produced by the Davy Hume institute & the Tom Hunter foundation. Defence is dealt with on p50, and I commend it to you.

      This is an excellent document – but I’m a wee bit hesitant to recommend it unreservedly for undecideds, because it (inevitably and wisely) usually concludes that ‘it’s all a matter for negotiation’.

      Still, it’s well worth Wingers giving it a bit of time and seeing whether it could be useful in individual cases.

    140. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      K1

      Like these?

      http://tinyurl.com/q685t8o

    141. Piemonteis says:

      Thanks YESGUY,

      A lot of that information will be helpful when I get chatting to her. I can’t for the life of me grasp who we’ll be attacked by or why she considers the issue to be so important. My personal preference is for a Costa Rica approach to defence, but I’m not going to persuade her with that.

      Regarding the trawlers spotting foreign ships in Scottish waters, there was a mention a while back of a Russian warship that the UK Navy took hours (or days, can’t remember) to reach. I’ll have a search for that.

    142. Andy-B says:

      News just in Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling are to go head to head again, later this month, at the BBC in Glasgow, its a 100% certain that this debate will be rigged, by the BBC.

    143. HandandShrimp says:

      I thought the STV audience was supposed to be an equal number of Yes and Nos and about 20% Don’t Knows. I had a rather garbled (said it was Alistair Campbell vs Alex Salmond)) invite to attend on my answer machine but I was on holiday and only got back three days before the event so I let it go.

    144. Ken500 says:

      Many of the folk who go to the debate, just go to get on TV. Shocking. The menage.

    145. Piemonteis says:

      Thanks Bugger,

      That’s the incident I was thinking of. I’ve found a couple of articles online that might help. I’ll have a search for the article you mentioned on Trident as well.

    146. Peter Macbeastie says:

      With ref to defence, one thing I will categorically state is that aircraft carriers are naff all to do with defence. Their stated role is power projection.

      That is taken from classes in defence structure from HMS Collingwood… when I had the dubious pleasure of trying to stay awake in them.

    147. Jim Marshall says:

      HandandShrimp 4.36

      Have a look at BlackTriangles posts from 11.24 on. Gives a good insight to what was going on.

    148. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      K1

      better

      http://www.gsm-earpiece.com/mwe-spy-glasses-set.html

      The glasses are available in France for €239.

    149. Paradox says:

      @piemonteis 3:53pm

      With the exception of ww1 & ww2 ask your mother when is the last time Scotland was attacked by any foreign force other than England in the last 900 years?

      Again Ireland has only ever been attacked or invaded by the English and that was several hundred years ago. They were not attacked by Germany in ww1 or ww2, because they were not involved with England. They were and are I believe neutral.

      So who is it that has ill will or a desire to invade us or even threaten us. The only country that wishes to dominate us is England and think that’s much more about oil and ego than for any other reason. So after 900 years why and who would want to attack us.

      The biggest threat to Scotland is the nuclear weapons belonging to HMG and an accident happening at Coulport/ faslane. That would just about wipe Scotland off the map and if anybody survived would make it unliveable for 100 years.

      Hope you can see clearer now where the threat has come from in the last 900 years and what and who is the current threat. If nuclear weapons are a great defence why ain’t they ringing London? May be it’s because they are far too dangerous.

    150. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      If we could get some nice lady who will be at the BBC debate could smuggle one of these, in her handbag, and switch it on.

      The device is a Bluetooth and wifi jammer.

      We would soon seen Flipper pissing himself on live TV if he was using bluetooth enabled glasses.

    151. Ken500 says:

      Curtice also gets £thousands from the Media as BT’s main media supporter.

    152. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Piemonties.Its the Moray Firth the Russian Ship anchored in, it took the Royal Navy 4 days to get from Portsmouth.

    153. heraldnomore says:

      Jeezo, those soundbites the BBC picked up in Inverness – that wifie on the freebies we get that England help pay for, and how we’re going to raise the taxes to cover it. Bangs head off wall.

      So we, and the rest of the country, have to listen to that every hour with no opportunity to point the poor mislead soul in the right direction.

    154. heedtracker says:

      Darling definitely worked with the bettertogether audience members before going on stage. You could see the big dope waiting and watching for their applause to some of his rehearsed stuff.

      Its nice that they think they have to cheat like that, when you have to pull dirty tricks, you’re losing. May work though, not!

      The ex Darling SPAD on at the end after the ITV news was interesting, a really nasty crude attack machine and I wonder why she got to be a Darling SPAD

    155. muttley79 says:

      In regards to Curtice, it is a feature of the way Unionists have run Scotland. They have inserted their supporters into key positions in academia, political commentary, media etc. This is done so that when they want a view on politics here, they know they will get the British establishment’s outlook on Scotland, or as close to it as possible. I suspect Curtice is just one of the people who have fulfilled this role. SLAB have been good at creating a patronage system here in particular. Things have changed, particularly in the last few decades. Some Labour people are now supporting independence, but there is no doubt that the Scottish establishment is still dominated by Unionists. It is a mutually beneficial network of interests.

    156. Lesley-Anne says:

      Piemonteis here are some links for you concerning the visits in recent years by the Russian navy and the *ahem* response from Westminster.

      This one is from the Daily Telegraph.

      http://tinyurl.com/jw3sl5k

      These two are from the Daily Mail.

      http://tinyurl.com/cqjy8c2

      http://tinyurl.com/kuo898h

      These three are from the Scotsman.

      http://tinyurl.com/l3ygh97

      http://tinyurl.com/md6u867

      http://tinyurl.com/mveogub

      Finally this one is from the Portsmouth News

      http://tinyurl.com/m9twuua

    157. muttley79 says:

      @heedtracker

      Are you talking about Kezia Dugdale, or was it somebody else?

    158. Lesley-Anne says:

      Oops looks like there were too many links in my last post, oh well. 😛

    159. YESGUY says:

      Piemonteis

      couple of links on defence

      http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/what-would-happen-scottish-defence

      http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-army-make-up-revealed-1-3209070

      Incidentally P if these forces where realised then Scotland would be much better off than the present set-up.

      And well done for mentioning the carrier Peter MacB. These ships take the battle to the enemy so to speak. We don’t need them for defence as we have enough airfields. Carriers PROJECT the fire power away from home.

      I cannot stress enough though that the Uk/Iceland gap is THE most strategic area in all nato plans. nato( North Atlantic Treaty Org.) says it all. North Atlantic. Our Allies would never allow that area to fall ,Our area.

      God forbid we ever need Nukes tho.

      M.A.D Mutually assured Destruction.

      Every living thing in the northern equator would die. FACT.
      It’s a threat response , No one can win. Every man women child , animal and after the bombs come a nuclear winter for centuries. It’s horrific in every way. Civilians know very little of the effects of Nukes. They are political tools NEVER to be used.

      Having a reasonable sized Defence Force projects defence only and Large forces project attack. We can show the world we will protect ourselves and will not attack unless in defence.

      We have all had enough wars so i doubt we will go off and build a iScottish empire. And if we do it will be what we do best , through invention , partnership, inovation and decency. We can be an example to all. And it doesn’t take much effort either.

      Hope it helps friend.

      sorry if i went on a bit there. It’s an area i am familiar with having served with many Nato Units .

    160. Thepnr says:

      @Piemonteis

      Here is the answers you seek as to how Scotland would be better off managing it’s defence in an Independent Scotland.

      The article is long and full of detail but if both you and your mother really want to know some of what the real story is then I guess you will take the time to read it.

      http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmdfence/761/761vw24.htm

    161. K1 says:

      Aye BtP exactly like those especially the particular ones you posted. And yeah i’m pretty sure the cell jammer would be employed too…raises an eyebrow don’tya think 🙂

    162. Piemonteis says:

      @Kininvie

      That’s the first time I’ve come across this paper and I’m impressed with the way it’s presented.

      In fact, there’s a lot in there for everyone, and I’ll be making sure to refer to it on a regular basis.

      Thanks a lot for the link!

    163. Robert Peffers says:

      Just listening to the 5:00pm Radio Scotland News. They were asking folks in Inversneckie who they thought won the debate. A No voter said he thought Alistair Darling won the debate and the reason he gave was that Salmond couldn’t answer any questions and the question that convinced this NAW was : –
      Wait for it!
      Wait for it!
      He couldn’t tell what Plan B was.
      Unbelievably idiotic. The question asked, What is Plan B was asked at least 22 times and Salmond answered more than that with the answer that Scotland would use the pound and would hope for a Currency Union.
      So plan A is to use the pound and seek a currency union.
      There is no Plan B – why would there be?
      We use the pound and if the English don’t agree for a currency union we use the pound and hell mend the Kingdom of England.

      So Ssalmond answered over 22 times and these numpties are still claiming he has to tell them what a plan he neither has nor needs is. The only one who can tell if there will be a CU are whoever is PM after independence.

    164. Dale says:

      The line I was waiting for was “So Alistair, have you run past the City of London that you’ll be closing the forex market to stop us using the pound?”

      It never came…..

    165. Brian Mchugh says:

      A part of me thinks Alex was holding back quite a bit. Maybe knows there will be more opportunities… kinda like let Darling have his wee moment, he will keep for later.

    166. K1 says:

      These ‘numpties’ are merely expressing the extent to which their perceived reality is predicated upon their consumption of the mainstream media as their only reference point to their perceived reality. It’s circular you see…round and round and round they go with the same tail chasing monotony.

      A little compassion goes a long way. We’ll be out of it soon enough.

    167. Liquid Lenny says:

      ronnie anderson

      Aye Ronnie but it must be pointed out that if it had two working engines it would only have taken two days 🙂

      Great Britain the Great Naval State only had available one ship limping on one engine to the knackers yard.

      Meanwhile wee Norway, tracked the carrier group the moment it left Murmansk with Orion P3 Patrol Aircraft and surface vessels. Mind you I would have thought Norway being Nato pals would have warned the UK Govt that it was on its way rather than them having to be told by a passing Scottish Fishing boat.

    168. YESGUY says:

      Great article Nana Smith.

      Really enjoyable read.

      We vote YES and see how quick the rUK are to turn us away from using OUR pound. Never gonna happen.

      Do people realise it is not up to the politicians who uses the pound ?

      No CU and rUK can watch as their pound goes down the swanny without Scottish oil, exports etc to back it up.

      I hope we eventually have our own currency though , but one step at a time

    169. Piemonteis says:

      @YESGUY & Thepnr

      Thanks a lot for the links. I’ll see what she makes of the information I’ve provided her with, and now I’ll be able to answer a lot more of her questions.

      I’ve already helped turn two family members to Yes, but these concerns over defence really threw me, as it’s an issue I didn’t consider to be particularly crucial.

      Thanks a lot everyone.

    170. heedtracker says:

      So clearly the Salmond is going to destroy Darling expectations were usurped by a change of tactics or, not a change but different tactical approach by Salmond. Did it work? Maybe.

      Comical Cockers of the Torygraph was on the now completely hideous BBC R2 with Patrick Harvey at lunch time and he said YES Scotland people looked downcast and defeated at Holyrood this morning and Salmond was two hours late for a press briefing. Harvey basically sat back and let Cockers monster Scottish democracy but Harvey clearly has the Green agenda in mind, but wont say what it is yet.

      Cochrane is just one groveling liar and the BBC has become an insane propaganda machine but why is it so hard to know what’s actually happened. Is there a total media blackout for YES Scotland?

    171. Lesley-Anne says:

      It wasn’t even a straight forward case of have one ship available to do the job LL. H.M.S. York was actually a decommissioned Type 42 destroyer. It actually had to be recommissioned if my memory serves me right before they could do anything. Without recommissioning this type 42 destroyer the GREAT UK and it navy had NO ships capable of going up to the Moray Firth. So much for punching above weight then!

    172. Cymru Rydd says:

      Just a few thoughts on the debate last night watching from Wales( on zatoo.com) after STV crashed.

      I was initially surprised that Alex Salmond seemed so low-key and almost mellow in his delivery. It seemed so different to the combative and authoritative persona we are so used to seeing on the media.

      It was only later that I realized that he was cocking a snoop at the Media with its obsession with gladiatorial confrontations,setting the agenda with “game changing moments” + its own nauseating self-importance in seeking to frame the narrative. And by being quite low-key, confounding its expectation that he would play the game by being the confrontational participant they so wanted to see.

      The overriding message I got from the debate was the First Minister subtly conveying the fact it’s not about the media, it’s not about Alex Salmond versus Alistair Darling, and it’s not about a professional politician having all the answers either.

      Rather- it’s all about you the public and it’s about enabling the public to fully engage in the debate in their own way. The move from the rostrum towards the audience in the question and answer session was very resonant since it seemed to reinforce this key point: “forget about me and my position behind this rostrum- this referendum is about you and your concerns”.

      For me, watching from afar, this sentiment seems to coincide perfectly with the grass-roots campaign to win the hearts and minds of the Scottish public- which is going on completely beneath the radar as far as the mainstream media are concerned.

      I would guess Salmond’s approach has just galvanized thousands more people in Scotland to fully engage in the referendum debate. However the media try to spin last night as a victory for Darling referendum, people power will trump media power by September 18.

      I’m so confident in a YES win, I’ve just put a 100 quid on a 55% plus vote- and I got good odds as well- 6/1 with Corbett Sports!

    173. bookie from hell says:

      New York Times

      Mr. Blair brushed off suggestions in the media that he was worth 100 million pounds, roughly $170 million. “The reports of my wealth are greatly exaggerated,” he quipped after a recent speech. “I’m not worth half of that, a third of that, a quarter of that, a fifth of that, and I can go on.”

      But he is not middle class, either. He is paid a total of $5 million to $7 million a year by three firms: JPMorgan, Khosla Ventures and the Zurich Insurance Group. He gives about a dozen speeches a year; one 2009 speech in the Philippines earned him more than $300,000, but an aide said that was unusually high.

      His companies reported roughly $12 million in net assets. His business perks include private or chartered jet flights and stays at hotels like the Emirates Palace in Abu Dhabi, known for its gold-dispensing vending machine.

      Then there is the Blairs’ growing collection of properties. They have bought nine houses or apartments, mostly in the last decade, for a total of $28 million, including a house and an adjoining property in central London and a Buckinghamshire estate once owned by the actor John Gielgud.

    174. Thepnr says:

      @bookie from hell

      Nice one, meanwhile the traditional Labour supporter is offered minimum wage + foodbanks as a top up.

      Does anyone really believe that the current lot, Miliband and Balls will be any different. I know that some do Mr Hothersall and Mr Smart are two who think “it will be different next time, when Labour get in”. Haha.

    175. Marcia says:

      Two neighbours today who I would never had them voting Yes put up Yes posters today. To quote some on this site ‘WoW’. Very stunned and happy. More Yes posters appearing in known Labour voters windows this week.

    176. cirsium says:

      @piemontais – I found the following incidents an instructive contrast

      it took the RN twenty four hours to respond to the appearance of a Russian fleet off the Moray Firth
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073901/HMS-York-scrambled-Scotland-Russian-fleet-security-scare.html

      In contrast to this feeble reaction, the Norwegian Coastguard arrived as soon as a Chinese ship entered the waters off Spitsbergen. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/growing-chinese-interest-in-the-arctic-worries-international-community-a-879654.html

      It also helps to have aircraft carrying out coastal patrols
      http://www.norwaypost.no/index.php/news/latest-news/27645-nordic-surveillance-of-icelandic-airspace

    177. Brian Mchugh says:

      I have mine up Marcia… they went up on the night the CWG’s ended. 🙂

    178. K1 says:

      Is it not the case that they are chasing the currency herring simply because they want to tie us to it for eternity when we vote yes? So that we can’t get out of it at the timescale we want to. Was it not himself the hiheidyin civil servant who indicated this in his backing of the three cheifs telling us we weren’t getting the pound? Is this not more likely their agenda here?

      So when it comes to negotiations they can force our hand on the duration of the currency union because they will obviously concede on the condition that we are tied for x years?

      Am I making any sense here?

    179. Bill McLean says:

      Piemonteis – just been through my file on defence and found some info that may help your Mum.
      1. Newsnet Scotland report 07 July 2012 on a study by the London based Royal United Services Institute entitled “Cheaper to defend an independent Scotland”.
      2. George Kerevan same date in Newsnet “Can independent Scotland pay for its own defence?” long paper and must be read to the end!
      3. Also Newsnet article 14 Feb 2012 “Defence Analyst says Clyde shipyards would be safe after Independence”.
      Good luck and I hope these help answer your Mum’s questions!

    180. Andy says:

      @Robert Peffers:

      Scottish ministers published figures showing they spent £19,452.92 going to court to appeal a ruling by the Freedom of Information (FOI) Commissioner that they had to disclose whether they had sought advice from their law officers on the issue.
      Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister, suddenly announced the case was being dropped last year because “no specific legal advice” existed, but it was not previously known how much public cash had been wasted.
      The row was particularly damaging for the pro-independence campaign as Mr Salmond had previously suggested in a television interview that he had received advice from Scottish Government law officers.
      At the time, SNP ministers were repeatedly claiming a separate Scotland would automatically inherit the UK’s EU membership and opt-outs. They have since admitted it would not.

      During an interview with the BBC’s Andrew Neil in March last year, Mr Salmond appeared to confirm that he had sought advice from his law officers on this issue, saying: “We have, yes, in terms of the debate.”
      But in July 2012 the Scottish Government announced it was appealing a ruling by the FOI commissioner that it disclose whether or not advice had been sought.
      Ministers used taxpayers’ money to take the case to the Court of Session but dropped their action in October that year after admitting the advice did not exist.

    181. Juteman says:

      Every time i watch AS, i wonder what he is really doing.
      I would never play poker with him. He seems to think 3 moves ahead.

    182. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Cirsium

      That would have been the second intrusion some month or so after.

      The first one took over 3 days and yes, the ship had to be recommissioned with a scratch crew. It also broke down on the way up.

    183. ronnie anderson says:

      @ K1.There are & will be a lot of Red herrings between now & negotiations after 18th Sept,& i would aggree with you they would seek to tie us into a long term Monitery Union to keep th pound from being devalued. Darling last nite was waffleing about Tax ect they dont contemplate a differance in the Scottish tax system,& a lot of Indirect Tax’s will disappear,they just havent grasped the metal Independance means WE the People of Scotland Decide Scotlands Future.

    184. Piemonteis says:

      Thanks Cirsium and Bill McLean

      I’ll have a look at those articles. There seems to be so much information out there that I now feel daft for not being clued up in the first place. It’s just a matter of where it’s hidden away.

    185. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      K1 Yes tied in for years.

      I think that there was some talk, from Westminster about a 20 year contract!

      I would prefer 5 at the very max, which would be the time they would be given to get Faslane decommissioned.

    186. Alan McHarg says:

      Just remember folks that “well trodden ground” for those who have been following the referendum for years may be “new ground” for those that are just now engaging in the debate.

      The debate wasn’t for the convinced it was for those yet to be convinced. However, as I’ve said before the format for the debate does not allow the time required…and even the questions/subject matter for that matter. The format wasn’t designed to let Alex Salmond shine/win, it was designed for damage limitation for Darling!…and the following days headlines!!

    187. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Decommissioned and cleaned.

    188. Lesley-Anne says:

      Oh Jeez, (dis) Reporting Scotland headlines have last night’s debate in the headlines. No surprise there but the *cough* surprise was the MUPPET who says he thought Darling won the debate because Alex Salmond could not give an answer to what plan B was! How deaf and stupid are some folk? What part of “We will use the pound!” do these incompetents NOT understand? What an absolute bampot!

      Oh FFS Curtice doing his YES Scotland needed a game changer last night!

    189. Alabaman says:

      I admit that there are times , such as “First Ministers Questions”, when I am shouting at the T.V. “Alex!!!, get into her”, same last night, he, Alex is a political street fighter and should have acted as such, to hell with softly softly advisers, get in there , and into him, this is too big to loose!.

    190. Onwards says:

      Reporting Scotland still focusing on the currency issue.

      The more I think about it, I am surprised Salmond didn’t turn this around into an attack.

      Darling knows that a currency union is inevitable.
      It’s a campaign tactic. The debt issue alone would have Westminster running to ensure currency union.

      So why is Darling trying to mislead the people of Scotland?
      Why is he treating people like fools?

    191. handclapping says:

      @B(tP)
      Decommissioned and cleaned.
      That you off for a shower and a bevy then?

    192. Fireproofjim says:

      Prof Curtice proving his Unionist credentials again. Claiming that the Yes campaign will be unhappy. Clearly happy about that. Why do they always ask him? He is only a poll statistician. You might as well ask the nearest butcher, baker or candlestick maker.

    193. Nana Smith says:

      Lesley Riddoch, Pat Kane, Iain MacWhirter and Stephen Paton will present a new daily online TV show from 1-2pm from August 7-24th. Watch on Youtube or via http://www.referendumtv.net

    194. ronnie anderson says:

      And from a factory in Glenrothes,a buisness market of 5.2

      mil people & a market of 60 mil people doing cross border

      trade,so no mention of the World trade that Scotland will

      engadge in on being Independant mr Darling,have a look at

      a World map there’s a big wide World out there beyond the

      English / Scottish border.

      Lets move on now lads n lasses,MSM are picking up

      Information from Indy Sites dont make they’re jobs easy.

    195. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      handclapping

      I am off the booze during the week,

      Too available, cheap and good here.

      Too tempting.

      I usually buy only decent sparking Alsacian Cremant at €6 a bottle. Really better than a lot of Champagnes.

      You are right about the wash and brush up though. I don’t think I can make mid month out this time.

    196. Alabaman says:

      Alex, re the type of currency .
      Don’t bugger around, tell them what plan b, c, & d is (yes they are in the White Paper, ) and let the NO side chew on it, at lest Joe, and Jolene public will have heard it from you.

    197. caz-m says:

      In the Glasgow Cross, Saltmarket, Gallowgate Barras area of Glasgow today, loads of YES posters and flags in windows. Yes stickers everywhere. Very strong YES support in the area and talked to about fifty people, vast majority YES and no one mentioned the currency issue.

      No voters, usual worries, pensions, immigration and hate Salmond.

      If the No mob still want to frighten people into voting NO, then they will have to come up with something other than the currency issue, because it is having no effect on the overall vote.

    198. caz-m says:

      Ronnie Anderson

      Any update on what is happening at the weekend Ronnie??

      Keen to make a wee holiday out of it.

    199. caz-m says:

      Brian McHugh 6.14pm

      “I have mine up Marcia…”

      A bit too much information there Brian, I think.

    200. Joe Swan says:

      I though Alec shaved it last night by a couple of points. He had him wide open a few times but didn’t hammer the points home, but hey ho.

      If that meeja sideshow is how they’re fighting this I’m upping my game a bit. If more DKs are asking questions that’s a good thing. We all had to start somewhere and look where we’ve ended up!

      I’m not one to say the bookies are anything to go by but they must have been impressed by someone.

      I tried to put money on over 55% today and the kind lady looked it up on her screen. It was 6/1 but before I wrote out the slip she flicked up the public screens. “It is now 5/1 and I can’t take that slip.” I was told apologetically.

      O/T I was travelling about today and went in to Ayr as I need more badges but couldn’t find the Yes shop. Can someone please post that very useful list of where the shops are in Scotland. The least I can do is help them out.

    201. caz-m says:

      Lesley Riddoch, Pat Kane, Iain MacWhirter and Stephen Paton will present a new daily online TV show from 1-2pm from August 7-24th. Watch on Youtube or via:

      http://www.referendumtv.net/

      Hopefully this programme has a bit of teeth about it and exposes the bias and gets the truth out.

    202. K1 says:

      I hear you ronnie, and yes BtP…likewise here.

    203. K1 says:

      Actually ronnie, I think they have grasped that…they just don’t want everyone else grasping that.

    204. Harry McAye says:

      Living in a fairly well to do part of Hamilton, I’ve not expected to see many YES car and windows in the neighbourhood but while YES windows are still largely absent, in just the past three days I have seen four more YES cars. Prior to that it was just mine and two others so that’s seven of us in a wee area of Hamilton, covering just six or seven streets.

      Elsewhere in the town there are a lot more YES windows than just a month ago, including three in or near Bent Road. Two of them are just a few doors from one another. But did see a huge UKOK poster in a window on Burnbank Road, the first such one I’ve seen.

    205. Graeme Doig says:

      caz-m

      If it has Pat Kane in it, it will have teeth. I watched him slice and dice Micheal Portillo on a programme about 6 months ago 🙂

    206. Harry McAye says:

      Forgot to say, still in Hamilton, great to see 2 prominent Yes flags and cards on two of the biggest tower blocks in the town, Almada and Caird Tower. One more on each would send a real message.

    207. john king says:

      Charlie Farley says
      “Next up: Darling is a lizard man!”

      Is he?
      I KNEW IT!

    208. Oui Things says:

      Salmond won last night. Simple as that. BT were hoping he’d tear strips off Flipper, but he chose not to. Remember Flipper saying ‘I thought I was getting the nice Mr Salmond’ or words to that effect. A pre practised line a la labour that might have worked if Alex had been overly bullish.

      Undecided’s don’t want to see ruthlessness, and they didn’t.

      Well played tactically I say.

    209. Rory says:

      “Do you have a house in Scotland?….”

      A) yes i do,

      “have you flipped it yet?….at our expense?”

      Nobody wants a Neil Kinnock moment. Salmond did well enough, he won over some undecideds. It’s us that will win this for ourselves. More power to you all.

    210. Democracy Reborn says:

      @Cymru Rydd

      Great post, my Welsh comrade.

      You have articulated my sentiments exactly re last night’s debate. I posted immediately afterwards that the notion many had on this site beforehand that Darling was going to be shredded by AS was completely unrealistic. Darling is an advocate. He also actually fared quite well in the 2010 GE debate against Osborne/Cable. AS could have answered certain points better & could have asked more focused questions in cross. But Darling’s body language & demeanour were awful. AS easily out scored him on that. He was more engaging, composed & empathetic with the audience. That’s not unimportant : studies show that when you listen to a public speaker, at least 50% of your attention is focused on the manner of their delivery as opposed to what they’re actually saying.

      If I hear the words “game changer” once more, I think I’ll scream. What possible game changer could either side produce at this stage of the debate? It’s a figment of the MSM’s imagination &, as I commented last night, anyone who didn’t think they would spin the outcome of the debate in Darling’s favour is fooling themselves. The ‘winner’ is being predicated on a pisspoor, small sample poll.

      AS, I believe, was projecting himself towards undecideds & women. In that respect, he got pass marks from me.

    211. Davy Coulter says:

      I trust Alex Salmond….he’s got us to this point in the independence movement. I believe as I did 12 months ago that he is astute and is keeping his powder dry……I hope so anyway. Why else would he not press really hard on the oil reserves question (the dampening of investment by WM taxes to reduce revenues; the massive untapped reserves west of Shetland, along the west coast and even in the Clyde estuary; etc) and the lies and deception of WM in trying to hide that potential. The positive effect on Scotland (and the negative impact on rUK)The transformational effect on our wealth creation potential AND social injustice eradication…..The consequential impact on all our public services. AS could easily gone down this road really hard and won over more of the undecided…..A lot of the solid arguments, evidence and material that comes through WoS could have been his ammunition…….but I’m sure he knows what he’s doing

    212. Patrician says:

      O/T

      Hope to see lots of you at Seafest, Arbroath on Saturday. Coe early and get a badge and aybe a sticker.

    213. Truth says:

      @Harry McAye

      Good to hear that in Hamilton. Was out walking in Silvertonhill last week and met the Yes canvassers. They said their figures showed 55% yes. I was surprised as that is quite a well to do area also.

      If you go past the old main post office in Brandon Street cast your eyes up to one of the flats above it. You can’t see through the windows for Yes posters. Magic!

    214. Neil Gillespie says:

      A very interesting read on all the comments about the man who was refused entry to the live debate, the bull shit the fact that hes a NAT spreading propoganda, copied and pasted and that the whole thing was made up to deflect from Alex Salmond poor showing. Well the reason why you wonder why i find this interesting is because I was that man.
      A little background about myself:
      I am a firefighter of 18 years, aged 42 married with four children. Profesionalism, honesty and integrity are things that i hold in high regard. I was selected, along with a no voting friend of mine from Barrhead Main street by a representative from Ipsos Mori to attend Tuesday Nights Debate. I wss really looking forward to it. I had to get the night off as i was working. I received a text from the Ipsos Mori rep 20 minutes before the opening of 18:30 hrs asking if i had received a call from STV today. I hadn’t. She replied to say that this would be a problem and that I wouldn’t get in! i tried anyway. Here is a rough transcript of the conversation:
      I was asked by a STV Rep for my Name.
      I said Gillespie.
      He said, John, we spoke today.
      I said, No its Neil.
      He replied, I dont have a Neil Gillespie. Who contacted you to attend this evening.
      I said the Rep from Ipsos Mori Name.
      He replied. You are the third person to mention her name. Im affraid that your information was never passed onto us and as a result that you wont be getting in this evening.
      I argued with him telling him that i had taken time off and that a mistake had been made.

      I was still refused entry.
      I had the Ipsos Mori Reps Mobile number from her text to me and i called her to see what she had to say.

      She stated that this was all bull shit and that she had given them the details the Thursday before. She said that she would phone her boss in London and find out what has happened.
      I walked down the steps of the auditorium and felt deflated. I was gutted.
      5 minutes later she phones me back.
      This next bit took me back.
      She said that all of the Yes voters and undecided persons that she had put through to attend the event were not contacted and instead STV had replaced them with their people, No people. This came from high up in STV.
      I will repeat that as this is the important part.

      She said that all of the Yes voters and undecided persons that she had put through to attend the event were not contacted and instead STV had replaced them with their people, No people.

      This made my blood boil. I was and am still livid. I have spread this every where i can. Please share it, it needs done. Oh and one last thing, my no voting friend who was vetted at the same time i was, what happened to him……..
      He was in the audience, he got a call from STV, he was allowed to attend! So the bullshit responce from STV stating that Ipsos Mori hadn’t passed on the details is exactly what it says on the tin….Bullshit.
      I have made formal complaints to STV and Ipsos Mori and i am still awaiting a reply from this. I wouldn’t lie about this, i copuld lose my job if i was caught out lying about something as important as this. I will chat with anyone on here as to the post and any other referendum issues. I am a passionate Scot who loves his Country and this is just another example of the lengths the powers in Westminster will go to, to win this referendum.

    215. Lesley-Anne says:

      Excellent post Neil.

      Thank you for putting the record straight so to speak.

      When the proverbial hit the fan over this I know there were a few individuals who, understandably thought that it was a bit of a wind up. However, after reading the posts from Black Triangle we all knew that it was not a hoax but in fact TRUE. 😉

      I want to say that everyone who is a regular on here wants to believe that what happened to you and other YES supporters last night is a one off. Sadly this is not the case. I believe what happened to you is quite a common occurrence with regards to BBC/STV political programmes/debates. The problem has always been getting someone who can relate first hand, rather than second or third hand, the actual events as they unfolded.

      I commend you for being able to keep your cool under such a stressful situation. I think there are more than a few on here who may not have kept so cool. 😉 😛

    216. Thepnr says:

      Neil

      Whether you choose to vote Yes or No it is disgusting that you were denied an opportunity to even express an opinion.

      What does that tell you?

    217. Dan Lee says:

      @Neil

      I took a screen shot of what you said and shared it around my facebook. This is beyond outrageous.

    218. Defo says:

      If, then STV have blown the house of cards down. One person, and well, you can just say sorry. Fair mistake.
      A few. Same.
      A few, all Yes. Hmmmm
      More than a few, all Yes. Bang to rights, get your coat.

      Dateline is fab, can we keep it after it’s over please.
      The Guardian food critic ! Coolio

    219. Marco McGinty says:

      @Piemonteis
      Regarding the future defence of Scotland, we need look no further than a similar sized nation just across the water, the Republic of Ireland. Both countries are situated in the north Atlantic, and the mainland coastline lengths of the two are very similar. However, where we differ greatly, is in the forms of defence.

      At present, the Royal Navy has one major naval base in Scotland, at Faslane. Faslane, as you will probably know, is home to the UK’s Trident submarine fleet, however these are not here to defend Scotland in any way. Other vessels based at Faslane include the Sandown-class mine countermeasures vessels, and a few small Archer-class patrol vessels, none of which offer true protection for Scotland. There are no vessels capable of defence, based in Scotland (or Wales or Northern Ireland for that matter) – all frigates, destroyers and other frontline vessels, are all based in the south of England, as are the larger patrol and survey vessels.

      From next year, with the transfer of Leuchars from Air Force to Army control, RAF Lossiemouth will be the only frontline RAF base in Scotland. Less than five years ago, Scotland was home to three operational RAF bases – Lossiemouth, Leuchars and Kinloss – but idiotic, and tremendously wasteful decisions by the MoD/UK government, led to the scrapping of the Nimrod MRA4 fleet, a reported waste of up to £4bn of taxpayers’ money, the loss of maritime patrol aircraft capability, and the eventual closure of RAF Kinloss as a result. One wonders how many friends in high places profited out of the Nimrod procurement programme, and the subsequent scrapping.

      So to sum up, Scotland, as part of the UK, has virtually nothing to defend it, and with ever-increasing cuts to the armed forces, we will be left with less and less under the union.

      However, do we truly need defensive measures such as fighter aircraft, or frigates and destroyers? Again, looking at our neighbours across the Irish Sea, we can take a look at the Irish Defence Forces, and their attitude to a local defence force. Their navy comprises of 8 vessels, all offshore or coastal patrol vessels, and all used in maritime protection, fisheries protection and search and rescue. Similarly, the air component boasts nothing in the way of fighter aircraft. Instead, the Irish Air Corps consists of aircraft dedicated to transport, maritime patrol, reconnaissance and ambulance roles, amongst other duties. Ireland has been an independent nation for decades, yet during that time, some of it during much global instability, this non-NATO country has not been subject to any attack from a hostile nation.

      There are many options available to an independent Scotland defence force, and the Irish model is one we could use at the outset. However, if a stronger force is required, we would of course be entitled to a share of the current UK military assets, so this would be negotiated in the event of a Yes vote, and I’m sure all of our transport, training and defence needs would be provided for, including fighter aircraft and frigates.

      But there is one thing worth remembering, and this again follows the Irish principal. As a peaceful nation, far removed from the war-makers in Westminster, none of our forces will be sent to fight in foreign lands. They may be sent as peacekeepers, but not antagonists.

    220. Chic McGregor says:

      OK we get from the tag line

      “UNSPEAKABLE HORRORS FROM OUTER SPACE PARALYZE THE LIVING AND RESURRECT THE DEAD!”

      what Labour’s master plan has been up till now.
      But what if there is a YES vote Alistair?
      What is Plan 10?

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/ufv59u41szwnetd/Plan9.jpg

    221. Wee Alex says:

      Perhaps Alex should haved asked AD –

      “As a former chancellor, in an independent Scotland, what would be your favoured monetary option”?



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