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Wings Over Scotland


Before you do anything else today

Posted on July 18, 2014 by

Go and read this. It’s an electric piece of polemic on Bella Caledonia by the respected Scottish playwright Peter Arnott, and it’s the best distillation we’ve ever read of one of the key principles of the referendum debate.

The myth that a No vote is a vote to keep things the way they are is one of the most powerful and dangerous weapons wielded by the anti-independence campaign. The reality is far worse, for all sorts of reasons.

Some are cold hard facts: the financial trap waiting for the Scottish Government in the form of “more powers” that aren’t powers at all, but huge burdens which will cripple the Scottish budget. But what Arnott’s piece outlines is something much more insidious.

A No vote in the referendum will rip away forever a straw that Scots have clung to for 300 years – the pretence of being a nation, bound only by an abstract political technicality. There has never in history been a democratic choice by the people of Scotland to surrender their sovereignty and be subsumed into another nation, so Scots have been able to pretend that they still inhabit a distinct and distinctive country.

On September 19th, if Scotland has voted No, that illusion will be at an end. We will have stated, freely and voluntarily, that our country is the United Kingdom, and that we all submit to its rule. There can be no more complaints that we’ve suffered a democratic deficit by voting for one party and getting another as the government, because we’ll have said loudly and clearly that we’re just a region of the body politic concerned and we therefore accept whatever the whole of it wants.

If we had any dignity at all, a No vote would be followed by the disbandment of all Scottish national sporting teams, the reinstatement of “God Save The Queen” as the official Scottish national anthem at all occasions, and Holyrood reverting back to the title of “Scottish Executive” rather than Scottish Government, to reflect its proper status as a regional council. If we’re the UK, we should start acting like the UK.

(The office of First Minister should perhaps also be renamed the Mayor Of Scotland.)

Shown the open door, we’ll have refused to embark on adult life and instead chosen to remain eternally attached to the apron strings. Westminster will be able to say “my house, my rules”, safe in the knowledge that we have no credible threat left to offer. It can help itself to our resources and hand them out wherever it likes, because we’ll have meekly given it permission in perpetuity.

Scotland was not “extinguished” in 1707, whatever the UK government might claim, because there was no democratic legitimacy in the sale of a country by a handful of lords. But it will be extinguished this year, once and for all, if it chooses that path.

Peter Arnott, though, puts it better and more eloquently than we can. Go and see.

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    1. 18 07 14 09:43

      Before you do anything else today | Scottish Independence News

    2. 18 07 14 14:27

      Scotland, isn’t it about time we grew up? | Are We Really Better Together?

    3. 18 07 14 22:51

      The radical implications of “no” | Legends of the Sun Pig

    287 to “Before you do anything else today”

    1. John Russell says:

      If there is a No vote then I believe the singing of Flower of Scotland should be banned. The Scotland squad will play England in November and the words ….to be a nation again” in that song will make us look a laughing stcok

    2. Alistair White says:

      I have to say, this piece on Bella Caledonia is exactly the way I have been feeling about those close to me who I have so far been unable to convert. I have family who moved from London, I took a prominent role in their wedding, they had their first child at the Borders General in what is accepted as the very best in maternity care. If they decide to vote No and then “retreat” to London, as they have expressed a desire to do, in pursuit of fortune in that vast metropolis to say that I will be disappointed and upset is an understatement.

      I believe all those planning to vote Yes will do so in the knowledge they take responsibility for what happens next, those voting No must accept the same rules apply.

    3. R-type Grunt says:

      Well said Peter & Stu. This is the crux of the matter.

    4. Don says:

      That has just chilled me to the core.

    5. Brian Powell says:

      The biggest lie the Together campaign tell, more specifically the Labour Party, is the ‘best of both worlds’, a strong ‘Scottish Parliament’ with a strong ‘UK Parliament’.

      They know they are lying, the voter doesn’t count, the Labour Party is all that they are concerned with.

    6. heedtracker says:

      Bliar Macdoublewhopper says its all just scaremongering, you will vote no, love teamGB’s safety, security, part of something bigger for more opportunities n shit.

    7. Roboscot says:

      If we vote no I’m sure the national football team will go anyway. It will give FIFA, and British nationalists, an opportunity. A Great Britain team will be an England team as far as the rest of the world is concerned, including England.

    8. Brian Powell says:

      I think, given the ‘new power’ (responsibility ) of being ‘allowed’ to borrow money from the Treasury or markets; if Labour as it stands ever got power in Scotland, in an effort to maintain the illusion it could fund the services, it would borrowed until we were bankrupted.

      That’s what No could bring.

    9. Keef says:

      Read it a few hours ago. When you have a read keep in mind what Milliband’s Labour intentions are with “One Nation”. I’m talking of UK Labour as we all know by now there is no such legal entity as Scottish Labour.

    10. Scottishdragon says:

      That piece by Peter Arnott is so powerful (and a bit terrifying). I’ll be making sure it forms part of my argument for independence in future, it’s time people knew what a no vote really means.

    11. bookie from hell says:

      If vote is NO,you will see Westminster start to put clauses in Scottish bills

    12. Glenn says:

      Wow. The single most powerful piece of referendum prose that I’ve read. This should be required reading for the undecideds.

    13. JimnArlene says:

      Read it earlier. I still would rather “f**k off”, than be f***ed. It is the scary future we face, if the NAE sayers get their way.

    14. dodgardiner says:

      I believe a minutes silence would be more appropriate for our ‘national anthem’.
      Have everyone turn their backs and bow their heads – only the 90 minutes ‘proudscotsbut’ would have the lack of awareness to even attempt singing it.

    15. heedtracker says:

      @ CameronB Brodie, totalitarian power via tv and newspaper. Here in Aberdeen the deeply creepy Press and Journal either annihilates everything Holyrood does or treats it like it doesn’t exist. TeamGB safety, security, the joy of royalty, hate benefit scroungers, war is noble and good, oil and gas “weaker under home rule” etc There’s some very dark characters in all teamGB news rooms but they’ll be well rewarded too, if they win.

    16. Dinnatouch says:

      I’ve been arguing for a while that a No vote is a vote to give up every pretence of nationhood and accept that Scotland is nothing more than a region of a country ruled from Westminster.

      There was an article in The Herald a week or two ago where a Tory MP suggested that the national teams should merge into a Team GB, a suggestion prompted by England’s early exit from the world cup. A No vote will strip all our ‘independent’ organisations of their legitimacy, we will finally become North Britain.

    17. Simone says:

      Exactly, and phrased so much better than I could,
      Voting NO says
      Let’s have trident (or it’s expensive replacement),
      let’s pay for England’s/London’s infrastructure,
      Saying goodby to the Scottish NHS
      Agreeing to hand over the Scottish education system to the DfE

      We may as well stop voting in General Elections if we vote No as it’s going to make No difference to the outcome in Westminster. And I can’t believe I’ve just said that because I’ve always said if you don’t vote you can’t complain (and I like to complain)

    18. galamcennalath says:

      The No scenario painted in vivid colour.

      What I find difficult to understand is …. we have moved this close, just two months today, to the vote and perhaps a million Scots voters seem complete oblivious to what the reality of a No win will be.

      We’re not too wee, we’re not to poor, but we have yet to prove we’re not too stupid!

    19. benarmine says:

      Rev, if this and Peter Arnott’s piece could be articulated in one graphic or a sentence that everyone would see the referendum would be won in a landslide.

    20. JLT says:

      I said something very similar to this yesterday. In fact, here is what I said.

      The thing is, as I say to my wife, if this country votes ‘No’, then so be it! I can live with it. Sure, I’ll be disappointed, but life goes on, and I’ll move along with it. I have other grand schemes in my life, and therefore, I won’t dwell on that disappointment.

      However, it is also my belief, that many, and I mean many of those Scots who decided to vote ‘No’ may feel a chill when that result is announced. It won’t be disappointment that they feel, but a sense of creeping regret. A regret that something has passed them-by, and they know they can never change it. It will be like a stain on their souls whenever they reflect on the ‘what if? scenario’, and believe me, privately they will. Whenever there is a mention on the TV, or if they read an article about the defeat of Scottish independence, they will feel it. If things turn really bad over the years (due to austerity), then even their kids as they grow up, may end up asking mum or dad why they didn’t vote ‘Yes’. Hard questions bring painful answers.
      I have friends who are going to vote ‘No’. When asked to explain, I get the usual nonsense of Salmond, no proof, white paper is mince, blah …well, you know, the usual guff. These are the people who will suffer that regret. Anyone with a decent intelligence, sensibility, and a grasp of what is going on, should be seeing the light, but instead, decide to perpetually question the Yes argument, without any proof of conviction in the ‘No’ argument. Those are the ones who will eventually, as Jim Sillars bluntly put it, ‘will bitterly regret it’. It is these people who will carry a burden. They may not know it yet, but it’s waiting for them if ‘No’ should win the referendum.

      To be honest, I will have no sympathies with ‘No’ voters from the 19th of September onwards. Whatever comes …you chose it! As said, I will live with disappointment, it is the people who voted ‘No’ that will carry the burden of regret.

    21. gordoz says:

      What the NO side dont want you to think about folks !

      Great Stuff from Peter, very thought provoking if you truly are ‘Proud’ of Scotland (Messers Hastings)

      Oh by the way is this Ian Murray’s offices been hit again -take a close look & see, hard to tell at first glance when you see the Blue Stickers Eh ?

      Och it’s only a bit of fun though eh ?? (’cause its the YES side won’t get to the press or TV – shocking !)

      https://twitter.com/finlayharris/status/489826867596496897/photo/1

    22. Flower of Scotland says:

      Read this last night and found it terrifying! All my nightmares rolled into one! Have shared Wings on Facebook asking NO friends to read it. Hope it is circulated far and wide and hope that the Sunday Herald will print it!

    23. desimond says:

      Has anyone generated the new badges:

      “Vote No and Fuck Up”

      apt on so many levels!

    24. The Man in the Jar says:

      I only visit MSM websites when linked to from a indi blog.

      One time when doing so I came across this comment in the guardian. Sorry I didn’t take note of the posters name (i think it was anonymous anyway. I don’t make a habit of copying comments but this one stood out. I intend to send a copy to any No voters that I know.

      “For anyone planning to vote No in September, you have to be completely certain, beyond any doubt, that you are comfortable with the direction the UK is headed. You have to accept that the wider UK political landscape is being shaped by the far right, and that the mainstream parties (ostensibly the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats) are being inexorably pulled ever rightwards in the scramble for votes. You have to be comfortable with the marginalisation and victimisation of the poor, with the dismantling of the Welfare State, the widening of wealth inequality between rich and poor, and the continuing erosion of workers rights. You have to accept that nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers are more important to you than education, healthcare and welfare for the elderly and vulnerable in society. You have to accept that, even if you do care about these things, your vote at Westminster will make no difference to the outcome. If you accept all these things unquestioningly; if you can reconcile your personal politics with what awaits a No vote; if you can consider all of these issues and conclude that a Westminster government can deliver the kind of society you believe in; then by all means vote No. But if you sleepwalk into this referendum, without making any effort to consider the case for Yes; if you squander this incredible opportunity to transform our politics, reclaim democracy, and build a society we can once again be proud of; then I can only hope that, when the full calamity of your decision is revealed to you, you can come to terms with your choice.”

    25. CameronB Brodie says:

      Vote Yes for a Scotland fit for the 21st century.

      Vote no to return to a society before the creation of the welfare state, and an increased polarization of opportunities.

    26. mogabee says:

      Read, enjoyed and shared. Though to be honest Stu. this is exactly what you have been saying all along and been vilified for by the usual suspects.

      They knew what you and now Peter Arnott are saying if spread far and wide would be dynamite!

    27. caz-m says:

      And staunch Better Together, Unionist NO voters still have the cheek to sing,

      “O flower of Scotland
      When will we see your like again
      That fought and died for
      Your wee bit hill and glen
      And stood against him
      Proud Edward’s army
      And sent him homeward
      Tae think again”.

      Pure hypocrisy. Don’t they know that they have the chance to “see your likes again” on 18th September.

      If it’s a NO vote, then surely “Flower of Scotland” has to go.

    28. galamcennalath says:

      @The Man in a Jar

      That comment is spot on, also.

    29. Jim Marshall says:

      Peter has articulated the doomsday scenario. Take what Westminster throws and shut up. But hey, we are winning in this fight and we only have to keep it up until 18/09.

    30. Giving Goose says:

      The big clue to what will happen to Scotland in the event of a No vote was demonstrated by George Foulkes (Peer, Drunk, Buffon, Enemy of Scotland and Unelected Politician) who proposed amendments to the Scotland Bill in the latter part of 2011. His little gem proposed that “before commencing discussions with representatives of foreign governments or inter-governmental organisations Scottish Ministers are required to obtain consent to the discussions from a Minister of the Crown.”

      Also included by the Labour Lord Foulkes was an amendment that would prevent Holyrood from discussing reserved matters unless they were to form part of formal representations to the Westminster government.

      Make no mistake; in the event of a No vote Labour intends to, and will, emasculate Scotland. Yes, that is right, Labour will take a knife and Cut Scotland’s ball off!

      The Tory Party will supply and sharpen the knife, but it is Labour who will willingly do the cutting for their Tory Lords and masters.

      Labour hates Scotland, Labour hates the idea of Scotland, hates devolution, never mind Independence. With a No vote our precious democracy will be cut away and we will be binned and consigned to the dustbin of history.

    31. ianbeag says:

      Page 1 lead story in today’ Herald “Poll shows Labour supporters are being won over by YES campaigning” The latest TNS survey detail reveals that 28% of voters who backed Labour in the 2011 Holyrood election plan to vote YES, up from 21% over previous 3 months. The summing up by Magnus Gardham “The drift to YES will come as a major blow to the NO campaign” made my day!

    32. MochaChoca says:

      That is a superb article, rings true on every level.

      This sums up to me is that whether it’s a YES or a NO on the day, within a year or two, very few will admit to voting NO.

      We need to get across to the NOs and undecideds that a NO vote is something will be almost universally regretted.

      I know potential YESs who have been ‘project fear’ed into being NOs. Maybe the argument should be if you fancy it, vote YES, it’ll only happen if the majority agree with you anyway, and if it does happen, don’t you want to be able to look someone in the eye when they ask you how you voted?

      History shows that once a country wins it’s independence it doesn’t look back.

    33. Cymru Rydd says:

      O.T- Apologies for going off message here. As a Welsh supporter of Scottish Independence, I am spending a few days in Scotland next week- aiming to visit Stirling and Perth.

      If possible, I would like to help out in any way I can with the YES campaign during my visit. Are there any WOS readers based in the Perth/Stirling area who could let me know of YES activities going on in those two areas next week, and put me in contact with the appropriate people?

      my e-mail details: aled [dot] job [at] btopenworld [dot] com

      many thanks

    34. Croompenstein says:

      The ‘cringe’ will multiply x 100 and as Peter says we wont be able to find any no voters in 2016. As an OT I was insulted on another thread by Duggie the all knowing troll when I said that the UK will end if Scotland votes yes, I wasn’t implying they would become stateless but surely they couldn’t call themselves UK if one of the K’s votes to leave I would imagine they could call themselves whatever they like maybe the U or the IOU but not UK, am I being thick?

    35. Jim Duthie says:

      TMIJ

      You don’t have a link to that, do you? If you do it would be much appreciated.

    36. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Jim Duthie
      at 10:46am

      Sorry jim it was just a BTL comment that I copied, edited slightly and saved. You should be able to do the same with my comment above.

    37. caz-m says:

      Croompenstein 10.36am

      You are right, the UK will end.

      That is why I have been trying to get printers producing,

      “Get Over It”

      badges, car stickers, banners, wristbands.

      We replace ALL the “YES” material (that could be passed onto down to Wales) and replace it with,

      “Get Over It”.

    38. faolie says:

      Also read it earlier today. And it’s maybe aboot time that these kind of arguments are made more frequently. Because their core is not negative per se. Rather their core is to get people actually to think about the consequences they’re going to unleash if they answer no on September 18th to that question: ‘Should Scotland be an independent country?’

      In fact the more I ponder that question, the more I think it is just inspired. Should Scotland be an independent country? Well, should it? Should we be independent? Should we?

      If when pondering that in the privacy of the polling booth, voters also have arguments like Peter’s piece gnawing and burning at the back of their minds, their pencils will hover over the no box, but try as the might, they will be unable to make the cross. At that point, they will make a quick X in the Yes box, quickly fold the paper and post it into the ballot box.

      But when they’re outside and walking back along the road, oh how good they will feel.

    39. Cheryl says:

      I don’t agree at all that if 51% of the country votes no, that we should give up being Scotland. The No voters I know aren’t voting on that basis at all. If one can vote yes and retain a Scottish and British identity, then that’s also true of a no voter.

      Scotland will not be extinguished and nor should it be.

    40. heedtracker says:

      Cheryl says:. If one can vote yes and retain a Scottish and British identity, then that’s also true of a no voter.

      WTF does that mean?

    41. the Penman says:

      It’s a chilling choice we have been given by the British State and the powers that be: Fuck Off, or Go Fuck Yourselves.

    42. Cheryl says:

      It means that we constantly hear people reassuring others that they’ll still be British culturally or whatever, if they want to be. Then in the next breath saying that we should have our Scottish culture stripped of us if we vote no. It’s rubbish.

    43. iheartScotland says:

      Sorry to use ‘rude’ language, but ‘shut up or fuck off’ sums it all up for me.The entire campaign in a nutshell.

    44. gillie says:

      We will have the last word either way after this referendum.

      If YES we will make Scotland a better place for all.

      If NO we will make life hell for those who voted against independence.

    45. Jock the Dug says:

      I can hear the refrain right now: Instead of us singing ‘O Flower of Scotland’.. the English will be singing to us ‘O Coward of Scotland’

    46. Brian Hill says:

      There is no status quo. The future is coming. The present is but a step towards it. The past is dead.

    47. thegooseking says:

      I have been meaning for a while to say that the only thing Project Fear has accomplished in me is to make me afraid of what happens if we don’t get independence. Arnott’s piece, even though I’ve never spoken to him, very effectively explains what I mean by that.

    48. CameronB Brodie says:

      Overall we find that perceptions do follow reality: countries that are more immobile (towards the right) are less likely to perceive that they are meritocratic (towards the top). We must be slightly cautious about reading too much into this, given differences of culture and language that affect people’s responses to survey questions. Still, it seems that Britain is a country with relatively low social mobility among comparable countries, yet with a middling to high belief that we are meritocratic (whether we use this measure/survey or others).

      My favourite is figure 2m which I think possible highlights the power of the BBC to manufacture consent. 😉

      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/perceived-social-mobility-do-we-think-that-money-buys-success/

    49. heedtracker says:

      Cheryl says:
      18 July, 2014 at 11:02 am
      It means that we constantly hear people reassuring others that they’ll still be British culturally or whatever, if they want to be

      Cheryl where is this constant stuff heard then? Read what the guy’s saying, have a wee think, then come back and tell us its going to lovely and super being in a post ref Scotland that could not face running Scotland.

    50. handclapping says:

      I agree and disagree with Cheryl. Scottishness will not disappear overnight with a No vote but Scotland is a lot less Scottish now even with a SNP government than it was 50 odd years ago when I was at Edinburgh Uni and the SNP was less visible than Wendy Wood

    51. braco says:

      Cheryl,
      Sorry but that is neither here nor there.

      The official Westminster legal opinion and basis of the rUKs claim to successor state status post Indy is exactly that. Ie Scotland was extinguished in 1707 and England continued all be it under a different name, having incorporated the land mass once known as Scotland.

      Look it up.
      It’s annex a, opinion: referendum on the independence of Scotland- international law aspects. Page 74 section 35 and page 95 section 95 very last sentence. It’s quite unequivocal. This is the prospectus that a yes or no vote is being argued by the uk government. We can agree to this interpretation of the formation of the current uk by voting NO or we can reject it by voting YES and continue to argue that the uk was indeed formed through international treaty by two equal and consenting nation states.

      That’s been their decision. Nobody else’s

    52. Jim McIntosh says:

      I read the article last night and the point that stuck in my mind was the reference to Maggie destroying our industries and introducing the poll tax illegally in Scotland. Most of us can hold our head high and say we didn’t vote for any of that.

      After Sep 18 we can no longer use that defence. Anything WM does to pensions, NHS welfare etc, we’ll have accept with heads bowed. Anyone who argues or complains will be beaten down with the sneer “You had your chance, you voted no, shut up”.

    53. farrochie says:

      Ian Campbell shreds the “Scotland extinguished” nonsense. There will be two successor states Scotland and England&Wales.

      http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/#.U8g8VOuYDnV.twitter

    54. Gillian_Ruglonian says:

      Hello everyone. This is my first post although I have been an avid reader for quite some time now. I read this article yesterday on Bella and I just wanted to say how pleased I am that it is going to get more readers here.
      I have been trying to articulate this scary future vision as far and wide as I can for a long time now as I feel that if you strip away all of the campaign talk, the politics, personalities, economic and social unknowns and even the “braveheart banter” that fuels most debate, then this is the truth at the very core of the vote; if you vote no can you live with WHATEVER that may mean for our nation?
      I have yet to meet anyone who can defend this view.

    55. gillie says:

      What the English fans will be singing if Scotland votes No.

      O Cowards of Scotland,

      When will we see your like again,

      Too feart to die for your wee bit Hill and Glen,

      You turned and run from England’s Army,

      And we sent you homeward, tae think again.

    56. yerkitbreeks says:

      We are now getting to the fundamentals of this Referendum.

    57. Jim McIntosh says:

      Sorry meant to add thats the argument I’ll be using with visitors to our referendum cafe.

    58. Bob Sinclair says:

      Jim,
      I will NEVER bow to the Unionists. For me the fight for our independence will go on, and when I have Grandchildren they will be taught about the kind of scum who would sell their country down the river. We will win, of that I am sure, but I will teach that lesson all the same.

    59. handclapping says:

      Does anyone else agree that the referendum question is too verbose? That it ought to be “Should Scotland be?”?

    60. Bob Sinclair says:

      Handclapping,

      Or ‘Scotland y/n’

    61. Graeme Menzies says:

      Cheryl,

      The point of the matter is simply that if we vote No, then we are voting against Nationhood and all it entails.

      That is the unambiguous signal that will be sent to Westminster, the EU and the rest of the world.

      It’s put up or shut up time for Scotland – end of.

    62. John Young says:

      Wish we were posting this single article through all the letter boxes instead of the Yes paper.

    63. Jim McIntosh says:

      Sorry to go off topic on this important thread but I see in the ‘Families’ section of the UK gov “you decide2014” they take credit for free personal care for the elderly in Scotland. They have no shame.

    64. Helena Brown says:

      gillie says: We will not have to make life hell for them, they will have done so themselves. There is none so blind than those who cannot see, nor it seems want to see. We have a Tory Government in Westminster who look as if they will be there after 2015 possibly with assistance from Ukip. We will watch open mouthed as the stupid continue voting Labour for Westminster, I know I did in 2010, after seeing what use they were in the 80’s. We need to circulate the Peter Arnott piece far and wide, if it makes only a few think it will have been worth while.

    65. CameronB Brodie says:

      handclapping
      …but Scotland is a lot less Scottish now even with a SNP government than it was 50 odd years ago…

      I think that is a common experience around the world, as globalisation is essentially a drive towards homogenization.

    66. Proud Cybernat says:

      If there is a No win (heaven forbid) the so-called ‘Proud Scots’ won’t know what’s hit them as the UK sets about bayonetting the wounded (Yes voter will be indistinguishable froma No voter) and enforcing the ‘house rules’. That is when they will realise their stupidity and regret their No vote. (Some won’t, of course–the BritNat diehards will be happy to see Scotland finally extinguished).

    67. iheartScotland says:

      @handclapping,
      ‘Scotland HAS to be’

    68. john j says:

      I have been contemplating what happens after a No vote for some time because I’m pessimistic, but optimistically I can see an opportunity at the next General Election. 20 SNP MPs could hold the balance in a hung parliament and dictate the terms of further devolution, leaving us with devo-max at the least. Not the best scenario I know but the fight wil go on.

    69. Helena Brown says:

      May I also add that none of the Unionist parties will get more devolution through Westminster in event of a NO vote. I do not think many of those voting No actually read the so called National Press or read the comments there. Their constituents will not let them.

    70. goldenayr says:

      Cymru Rydd

      If you’re reading check your inbox for contact details.

    71. galamcennalath says:

      Firstly I still believe we’ll win, however, I don’t think ‘Scotland’ will extinguish with a No. Hard core Unionists might try to achieve it, though.

      After a No win, there will be forty odd percent thoroughly pissed of Yes voters who feel cheated by the lies and deceit which resulted in the No win. Bitter together will be never more true.

      When Cameron wins the 2015 election with a majority, a big chunk of Labour No voters will realise their No voting mistake.

      Within a year of that, even more No voters will see the reality of their decision.

      Then there will be a big majority for Independence. Too late? If you believe in people power, then it will happen.

      Churchill again, a No win “… is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.”

    72. heedtracker says:

      Cowards of Scotland is harsh considering the relentless attack on Scottish democracy from all teamGB media so for example today, Scots oil and gas reserves at $100/barrel, or £1.5 trillion, becomes this nightmare https://archive.today/asLuE

      and ofcourse its grabbed by bettertogethger phonies and shills and even CiFers like Prof Tomkins of Glasgow uni pretending to be my Slovene girlfriend, Jezereena:(

      https://id.theguardian.com/profile/abiesalba/public?activity-stream=comments

      Only Scots oil is worthless

    73. Waking up to a NO vote on sept.19th will be pretty hard to bear,but this is a democracy I guess.

      However I know people who are voting NO and wont change their mind for any thing,and I wont be letting them forget that when Scotland goes tits up!

      I will also be wearing a badge with ‘dont blame me,i voted YES!’ On it and really rubbing their noses in it.

    74. iheartScotland says:

      @handclapping,
      or ‘Scotland desperately needs to be’

    75. Cheryl says:

      Heedtracker, I’ve heard it and I’ve read it, telling people you can still be British if we vote yes, we’ll still have social and cultural links, they won’t have to lose any of that. That doesn’t square with a no vote meaning we have to give up our culture. Mostly in terms of football (football forums being the places I frequent online) I hear that we should give up our national team if it’s a no vote. It’s from yes voters I hear it, not no voters; I’ve never heard a no voter say that’s what they want. I just don’t agree with it. I’m a hard yes voter and I find it sad to hear fellow yes voters suggesting that we should give up the notion of being a nation. People who may vote no now have been just an important in Scotland retaining a distinct culture and identity within the UK as anyone else.

      Braco that’s not my point and nor is it what we’re voting on. A no vote does not mean giving up being Scotland or being Scottish and I can’t get my head round anyone allowing themselves to be held to ransom like that. Surely NONE of us here in the event of a no vote, given our clear beliefs and the reason we’re voting yes, would just say fine, disband our national sporting teams and make Holyrood ‘less’ than it is. I don’t believe that for a minute. A no vote does give Westminster carte blanche to screw us, and it’ll still be up to us to try and resist, and I’ve no doubt that’s what we’ll try to do, forever and a day if needs be. I won’t be giving up on Scotland.

    76. Helena Brown says:

      Cheryl if 51% vote No you have lost Scotland forever unless you find the courage to do as the Irish and nearly all the countries with something for the Empire to lose had to do and take up arms. If they have not the courage to put the x in the right box they will not go into battle for it. You are presently whether you like it or not a province of England, you are treated exactly like it. You have an English Passport you may argue it is a British one, but in England Britain, is England and so is the UK. When the discuss counties in England they use the same terminology for Scotland. So we need to make people realise we are not scaremongering, this is the reality.

    77. goldenayr says:

      Guys

      I think we’re getting carried away with ourselves on the chances of a no vote.

      Compare what they say in the MSM and the results we’re getting on the doorsteps.

      Not saying be complacent but also not saying we shouldn’t use Peter’s piece.Was thinking that I’ll maybe print a few copies out and give them to the unengaged I get out canvassing.

    78. bluedog says:

      ‘Scotland was not “extinguished” in 1707, whatever the UK government claims, because there was no democratic legitimacy in the sale of a country by a handful of lords.’

      But there was no democracy at all in any part of what is now the UK in 1707. To claim that the Act of Union therefore lacks democratic legitimacy 307 years later is pure anachronistic farce. The ruling powers in Scotland in 1707 were the monarchy and the aristocracy, just as was the case in England. But so what? There have been changes since. Judging history with modern political values inevitably leads to false conclusions. Possibly the intent.

    79. handclapping says:

      @Jim McIntosh
      Its not a question of having no shame, its an outright lie.

      Great to use on the doorstep as a counter to the “AS lied to us” meme. Ask whether free care for the elderly is the same in Scotland and England, who brought in free care for the elderly in Scotland and why is Westminster lying that they did and its there on their website.

    80. Helena Brown says:

      Should have read When They discuss counties in England. Really need an edit function well I do.

    81. Sneddon says:

      Cheryl _ I think we’re getting scottish culture mixed up with political culture. We’ll still have all the signs of scottish/brit culture but politically we’ve given away any right to complain about what the WM parliament will do to us in the event of a NO vote. As regards a national team in the event of a NO win. You might as well let Yorkshire have a separate team as Scotland because a NO win means just that NO NATION just a region who voted to be treated as a region.

    82. Molly says:

      Cheryl it’s not that Scottish culture should be- it’s that Scottish culture will be.

    83. braco says:

      Sorry Cheryl,
      That should have been page 87 section 95. very last sentence.

    84. Helena Brown says:

      Cheryl I wish I was as naive as you seem to be, those in Westminster have no use for US, they want Scotland for what is there not for the people. They wan the resources Scotland brings but not the disagreeable Jocks, go onto the Guardian site and read the comments, they were a left wing paper at one time. If you read the comments in the Telegraph come back and tell me that you want to stay with them I get dirty just reading it, stuck full of people who just love Scotland. Why would you want a Scottish Football Team they will say, you are happy being British aka English.

    85. thegooseking says:

      @bluedog

      That doesn’t actually change the point, so I don’t know what you’re blethering about. If the point were “1707 should have been democratic,” then you’re right, that would have been anachronistic. But the point was “we didn’t ask for the union”, which still holds true whatever way you look at it.

    86. goldenayr says:

      bluedog

      Are you referring to the recent declaration,by Westminster,that Scotland ceased to exist but somehow England didn’t?

    87. Les Wilson says:

      So the SG need to counter this by making things VERY clear, yea I know the problems in doing that but somehow it needs done. Few Scots, when faced with the country no longer being an existing country, with everything it entails, would shock many of them.

      Some Unionist die hards will shrug their shoulders, but many would decide, enough is enough. Their votes would help drag us well over the line. We need a substantive document spread far and wide. Put through doors, posted, up as posters, email attachments to friends. All across the social media. This needs done now. Wake up YES,wake up SG.
      Get it done.

    88. heedtracker says:

      @ bludog, But there was no democracy at all in any part of what is now the UK in 1707.

      And yet its 2014 and we are still ruled by super rich royals with nearly a thousand Lords that will never have to stand for teamGB election. Rule Britannia, via the smirking BBC in Scotland news readers. Another middle east war anyone? war s good, Trident keeps you safe, you dont need benefits, only scroungers and imigrants steal your taxes, tally ho

    89. Andrew Brown says:

      O/T but did anyone else notice this morning on the Sky News newspaper review one of the guests (I forget his name but I believe he is a reporter for one of the UK dailies) whilst discussing the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner over the Ukraine, said (and I’m paraphrasing) “Putin is a world class politician even if you don’t like his politics”. Oddly I didn’t hear any howls of protest or exclamations of horror. I just can’t get my head around this hypocrisy thing, maybe I just not genetically programmed for it as a Scot.

    90. Cheryl says:

      Helena I’m not naive at all, and I’m well aware of how Westminster behaves. None of us here accepts it and we’ll continue to not accept it. They’re not my frame of reference for what Scotland is or can be.

      It’s a desperate situation for Scotland and we all know what’s coming if the no vote wins out but what’s been happening here in Scotland over the last 15-20 years isn’t going to come to an abrupt end, because people like me and you won’t let it. Scotland won’t be extinguished.

    91. goldenayr says:

      I have to agree with Cheryl.

      If we’d rolled over in ’79 and given up,we wouldn’t be here now.

      If(and it’s a big if)there is a no vote.It’s just one more battle.Did we stop in 1715,45?People say the genie is out the bottle.I say the bottle won’t be stoppered,even after the YES vote because we know they don’t give up either.

    92. Jeannie says:

      And, after a No vote, when the Tartan Army follows the Scotland team abroad, how will the rest of the world perceive them – especially if the team is playing against an independent country that was formerly a British colony and fought for its freedom. Will the fans still sing loudly that they “can still rise now and be a nation again”?

      And when you go abroad on holiday after a No vote, say to Malta for example, a country with a population smaller than Glasgow’s which gained its independence from the UK in 1964, and they look at you in amazement, will we all still be insisting we’re Scottish? I know I will, but I’ll be qualifying it with “I voted Yes, by the way”.

    93. a supporter says:

      It’s not often I criticise you Stu but the above piece is absolute rubbish. Of course Scotland will still exist after a NO vote. We have embarked on a course towards Independence and a NO vote this time will only be a hitch in the timetable.

      Wales hasn’t lost its identity although it has been part of England legally for donkey’s years.

    94. Molly says:

      Sneddon , funny it was Yorkshire I was thinking of, why would Scotland be allowed any exemptions if we vote to hand all our decisions over to Westminster?

      Why should Scotland have an SPL or First division, Yorkshire doesn’t ?

      Why, when we have an expensive all knowing Supreme Court in London , would you need regional laws?

      Why would Scotland be exempt from competition rules for its NHS- if Serco / Virgin /Circle is good enough to run services down south, why should Scotland be exempt?

      This is called pooling and sharing is’nt it?

      This is why Scotland needs ( the quickly glossed over by the media) written constitution.

      If you believe in everyone being entitled to care at the point of need, if you believe the league titles your team have won,mean anything , if you believe people and the land make a country not governments , vote Yes otherwise be prepared to appear in the next visit Yorkshire advert- it’s very like Scotland but with a different accent.

    95. Nuada says:

      Awesome. Absolutely f**king awesome. It’s exactly what I’ve been telling anyone who’d listen for the last two years, and finally somebody has packaged it in a coherent way. This should be copied by the thousand and fliers of it put under the widow wiper of every car in Scotland.

    96. gordoz says:

      Better to simplify –

      Vote No = Bye Bye the Scotland we know and love, welcome to North Britain plain and simple; Oh and of course the proud county / region of Scotland.

      Can’t you just semll the shortbread, hear the those bagpipes and envisage those lovely pheasants being blown out of the sky with abandon.

      Doesn’t it just make you so proud ? Very, Very Proud.
      Some of us have the chance to create the above and are relishing it with glee. FFS people.

      Be afraid, be very, very afraid of a NO MORE SCOTLAND vote ! ‘Cause thats what it is in escence, pretending otherwise is deeply flawed.

    97. MochaChoca says:

      Cheryl, I think the point being made here is that we have managed to hold onto a Scottish nationality over the centuries despite fact that we are not politically a nation as, until now, the people have never actually had to commit one way or another.

      Pardon the vulgarity, but it’s now a case of sh1t, or get off the pan.

    98. Cath says:

      I hear that we should give up our national team if it’s a no vote. It’s from yes voters I hear it, not no voters; I’ve never heard a no voter say that’s what they want.

      This is one manifestation of something that’s interesting and untested though. Scotland is not a nation state politically, or in the eyes of international law. The UK is the state. But the UK is technically made up of four nations, all of which have many of the trappings of nationhood.

      It’s a massive anachronism and not at all fit for the 21st century. Where there are distinct, obvious nations, they should run themselves as sovereign nations, even if beyond that there is a “United Kingdom” in terms of Royalty and many other ties.

      On the 18th September, the people of Scotland will be – for one day only and for the first time ever – truly sovereign and able to decide whether we wish to continue with this ridiculous anachronism of being a “nation” which doesn’t govern itself and isn’t a “real” country in any sense of the word, or move on into a different form of governance where we are a real country.

      If we vote no to being a real country, that means we will have – for the very first time – democratically agreed we’re not a real country and that the UK is our state. In that sense, we will have agreed with the UK government’s assessment that Scotland was “extinguished as a nation in 1707 and incorporated into a greater England.”

      If we do that, why would or should organisations like FIFA continue to treat us in the very odd way they currently do – and this anachronistic “nation state” that isn’t really? They do now because politically the UK is made up of “home nations”, but really going by the rules it should be just the state.

      I honestly, genuinely do not believe many of the contradictions in the UK and “home nations” can or will be carried on after a no vote. We’re voting on whether Scotland is a real country or not at base level. That will have consequences if we vote no as much as if we vote yes – just not good ones.

    99. braco says:

      Cheryl,
      Well that’s ok. If you are happy as seeing scots identity as a purely imaginery self image then yes you are probably correct. You can keep telling yourself that we scots are all jock tamsons bairns while actually living in a Scotland that is one of the most unequal societies in the world or that we scots are totally against weapons of mass destruction and illegal wars while living in a country that is the Western European epicentre for both those institutions. You can tell yourself all the soothing myths we’ve been telling ourselves about ourselves for centuries while living through the exact Opposite Day and daily. Only this time we have given our concent to this day in daily! There is a name for that and it’s delusion. We

      We will not lose for exactly that reason. We would be unable to return seamlessly to the old comfortable self image that has been so important to our survival as a nation within the reality of this completely unequal union. This self image has become integral to Scottishness and the reason the YES campaign is in actual fact a social movement rather than a nationalistic one.

    100. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Bob Sinclair

      I won’t bow to the unionists either. My head will be bowed in shame that I am part of the generation that had the chance nay the responsibility to take Scotland in a different direction and for whatever reason we bottled it.

    101. Training Day says:

      Excellent article. It articulates precisely what many of us have been saying for months – should Scotland be a country or not? That, stripped of all surrounding bullshit, is the choice we make on Sept 18th.

      And there’s little point in arguing how Scottish we can be after a No vote. Politically, we’ll have handed our enemies the power to make that decision for us. So, put crudely, you might like to read Robert Burns in private but don’t expect to see him mentioned in schools post a No vote.

    102. iheartScotland says:

      @Cheryl,
      Agree with you to a large extent,I’m a member of the Scottish diaspora. (Left when I was 5).
      Your ‘Scottish identity’ never disappears, even after all the years.
      After 307 years, neither has yours. Vote Yes.

    103. goldenayr says:

      MochaChoca

      Yeah,but all those who voted “no” and thought everything will carry on the same are going to be mightily pissed off when they find their “country” is now a region.

      Another army of yessers for the next time.

    104. Cath says:

      And if there are people are voting no but who also want to keep a Scottish “national” football team, sing Flower of Scotland and keep control of some of our own affairs etc, then they need to do a bit more thinking about what it is they’re voting for and against and why.

    105. Croompenstein says:

      For the first time in our long history the people are being empowered to choose the path and status of our country. Not the monarch, not the lords or the landed gentry but the wee man and wee wumman. The sheer size and importance of this event cannot be underplayed. I think it will take a long time for Scotland to recover from a no vote but as Cheryl says we will still be living in Scotland and the fight must go on.

      However I do feel the majority will vote yes and again it will take years to disentangle our country from Westminster and it may be a struggle at times but the end result will be worth the struggle

    106. Molly says:

      By the way to any journalists who are reading this could you please email Danny Alexander and ask him why he lied on GMS this morning? He claimed no one is talking about abolition or change to the Barnett Formula.

      Perhaps Mr Alexander could ask across the desk Miss Pritti Patel what she is talking about, when she talks about reform of the Barnett Formula , when they’re working alongside each other at the Treasury?

      Appalling

    107. YESGUY says:

      The nightmare of the NO vote got me a wee bit worried and gave my confidence a bump but a quick look through the comments pages and i knew it was only an “IF” message.

      Bloody scarey tho.

      We have our own project fear to throw in the NO voters faces.

      I for one will never forget or forgive them if a NO vote wins.

      Scumbags have lied and spun everything they could to put off voters. But it won’t work

      Wait till after the games. Then we’ll see what they have left. We’re winning the arguments because the have no argument. Only fear and we’re getting used to that.

      keep faith that the people of Scotland will vote YES.

    108. goldenayr says:

      OT

      Big Debate coming from Brigton the day.

      This should be interesting.

    109. heedtracker says:

      @ Cheryl, what does “Scotland won’t be extinguished.” mean and whats your Scotland that wont be extinguished because unless a country runs its own affairs, its not a country, otherwise maybe 120 countries around the world would all be UKOK bettertogether.

    110. Caroline Corfield says:

      A democratic (hahaha) No vote will have cultural implications.

      The question is whether the country should be independent, but the position of the parliament we wish to be independent from is that the country was already extinguished. A no vote will imply that all the arguments put forward for a No vote have been agreed with by the electorate.

      A country that has accepted it was extinguished and has voted against independence, is no longer a country in any form. The Scots may well still exist as a nation, like the Sioux for example, but the country will be gone.

      It should not get a sporting team for any sport at international level.

      That will have a cultural impact on the Scottish nation.

      It remains to be seen what Westminster governments do with Holyrood after a No, but it will be entirely outwith the hands of the Scottish nation and it will have a cultural impact too.

      There will be another wave for independence after this, but it will be so much harder next time, why make life difficult for your descendants?

    111. Croompenstein says:

      I think Priti Patel spouted her guff before she got the job at the treasury. Now she has her feet under the desk at the treasury and will have first hand knowledge of the Great Obfuscation you wont hear her spouting her subsidy junkie pish but we must use her words against the naysayers

    112. goldenayr says:

      A lot of doom and gloom on here the day.

      Come on guys,we haven’t lost and we’re not going to.

      Get out there with the positive message and don’t let the few nutters wear you down.

    113. Capella says:

      Stephen Noon, strategist for the referendum campaign, said on Derek Bateman’s recent podcast that the question is “should Scotland be an independent country” now that we have established that we are as capable of running our own affairs any other.
      Scott Minto posted a similarly incisive piece on WOS in February last year. As someone pointed out above, this brings us to the heart of the campaign.
      http://wingsoverscotland.com/possessed-under-law/#more-18151

    114. Brian Powell says:

      The Together parties will want to keep up the pretence of the four nations, and that Scotland goes on.

      They would want to give the impression that nothing happened.

    115. gordoz says:

      O/T

      Wonder if the TNS poll shift is reflecting the relentless groundless negative Lies, (which can’t be substantiated by ‘NO Fanx’) on all the recurring themes of currency, EU, NATO etc.

      The good old – Nobody likes a Liar scenario coming home to roost for Big Blair Mac D ? 🙂

      Is the patience of the undecided voter wearing thin ?

      Is the O/O and the Unions UKIP threat having an effect ?

      Westminster child abuse sleaze ?

    116. Soda says:

      Hi all, sorry but a bit O/T. I’m looking for a bit of help. A friend i’m talking with online has posted this pic. Now i know most of it is misinformation and downright lies but if some one more eloquent than me could take the time to counter each point in it i would be very grateful

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152366936748725&set=p.10152366936748725&type=1&theater

    117. goldenayr says:

      gordoz

      Certainly on the doorsteps the constant negativity is counterproductive to them.

      A lot of folk who don’t normally engage in politics are getting hacked off.

      It only seems to appeal to the bitter and twisted,who are fortunately few.

    118. caz-m says:

      Goldenayr

      BBC Scotland’s Big Debate, as long as you don’t talk about Scottish Independence or anything negative about Better Together.

      It’s been on 30 mins and they have not mentioned anything regarding Independence.

    119. JLT says:

      From today, I intend to post this article by Bella at least a couple of times a day on Facebook right up to the referendum. I’m also posting to my Facebook Circle telling people that if they have any queries about the Referendum and its implications either way, then they can email me privately (the idea being that they may be afraid to ask openly due to family and friends tearing into them. I’m posting my email address on the same post).

      For me, this is it. I’m kind of done of tip-toeing around the whole issue. Last night whiel canvassing, I got into a 15 minute debate with a boy on his doorstep. Everything came up; Salmond, Sturgeon, Currency, Queen, EU …and no matter how much I blew his case away, it was always something else. Eventually, I asked him what he thinks Scotland wil like when the oil runs out and we’re still part of the UK? ‘‘Well, we’ll just have to worry about that when the time comes!
      At that point, it was the straw that broke the camels back. Fuck this! As I posted yesterday, I’m getting sick of almost feeling like I’m having to apologise for voting ‘Yes’. When someone derides me for not being able to predict the future post-Yes, but then tells me, well, we just wait and see what comes in the future if we’re still in the Union, then he can piss off! (seriously …apologies for the swearing, I’m in a mood!)

      For the vast majority of folk intending to vote ‘No’, they are sleepwalking towards oblivion. Aye, the ‘Yes’ folk might not have all the answers, and I won’t lie when I say ‘Yep, I think it may be tough for the first few years with tax rises’, but it sure as hell beats whats coming if we vote ‘No’.

      So! I’m posting my email address on Facebook asking folk to contact me with their queries, and I’m posting Bella’s article daily until the big day. The gloves are off. Rightly or wrongly, by posting that article, I am doing my own version of Project Fear, but with mine, this really is a warning.

    120. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Fifa will dump Scotland as a member in a jiffy.

      No more chances of winning the World Cup.

    121. MDMAok says:

      If we vote no, we will obviously need a new song for Rugby and Football games. Flower of Scotland will be silly – all that stuff about a new nation.. Anyway I have started a new version “Feartie of Scotland” and We should probably make this a communal effort since we will all be to scared to stand up for ourselves…

      Of Feartie of Scotland
      I wish a’hn ne’er seen your like at aw,
      That cower’d and crumbled
      And gave the tories back our baw,
      Laid down and greetin,
      Proud Cameron’s Army
      And sent him homeward
      With all out Oil

    122. goldenayr says:

      caz-m

      Yeah,it seems they’re saving it for Haddington.

      Wonder if it’s got anything to do with recent attacks from naehopers there?

    123. heedtracker says:

      @ Soda, just ask how much the UK actually paid the banksters after they almost destroyed, well everything really, our bank accounts, savings accounts, share holdings, mortgages, pensions, etc plus a lot of businesses went bust in teamGB.

      So simple question to bettertogetherists and No Thanks out there, how much tax payers money did Crash and the Flipper actually give the banksters, why did they let it happen and above all else, how much of our hard earned money has been repaid?

      Bliar MacFastpiearm never answers any of the above either.

    124. iheartScotland says:

      BTP,
      No more Scottish team, I wonder how many 90 minute patriots have considered that.

    125. desimond says:

      @Cheryl

      Many YES voters do, and with just cause, fear that following any NO vote, Westminsters Unionist party Machine will then remove any mechanism for further referendums and independence. Holyrood will become a waste of time.

      If we piss off the big dog without running away for good, you can be sure it will teach us a harsh lesson and if that harsh lesson comes, then no NO voter can say “Yeah, but, no but” as we all suffer the consequences together.

    126. Dennis Smith says:

      Back in 2013 I had an article in the Scottish Review discussing (at possibly tedious length) whether Scotland could retain any claim to nationhood in the event of a No vote – a very different question from whether Scotland could retain a distinct culture.

      Anyone interested in following this up can find the article at http://www.scottishreview.net/DennisSmith135.shtml

    127. packhorse pete says:

      Article inspired me to send an e mail out, as follows:

      The above link is a chilling reminder of what might well happen if we vote NO. As the article suggests, we will have put ourselves in the position of saying that whatever Westminster do, that’s OK by us. Scotland as a country will all but be extinguished. Any complaints about ANYTHING – NHS, General Election results, Wars, Poverty, Foodbanks, ..will be useless. Because we – or some of us – voted for it. And, in years to come, when our descendants find out – as they will be able to – how we as individuals voted, in the face of Scotland disappearing from history, they’ll wonder what sort of person would be so cowardly as to sanction, and actively vote for, the dissolution of a nation.

      So, don’t imagine things will go back to normal after a NO vote – they won’t. There’s a holocaust coming to punish us for having the temerity to challenge this British state. And it won’t be pleasant. We’ll be seen as the most miserable bunch of cowards on God’s Earth and we’ll be reminded of it at every opportunity. And we’ll deserve it.
      Fortunately, there are indications that YES are starting to prevail. But it’s time to stand up and be counted. As the article says, we can’t blame some one else, we can’t contract out of history.
      I’ve just come back from Croatia and Bosnia. When chatting to local people, and saying i was Scottish, they knew all about the Referendum, and asked how it was going. When i said it would be close, they could hardly believe it; “we had to go through a horrific war to get our independence and all you have to do is VOTE?”, was the essence of the incredulous responses. The world is watching us.

      Sorry about burdening you with my thoughts like this, but it is time to make a committment. If you agree with article, please send on to others. If you don’t good luck……

    128. Robert Peffers says:

      I’ve been preaching that particular sermon for decades. That’s is the entire basis for my harping on about the Articles of Union contained in the Treaty of Union. It is the basis for my constant claims that the Treaty of Union is legally a union of Kingdoms, not one of a union of countries.

      It is also the basis of the Scottish Claim of Right. It is based upon the three country Kingdom of England in 1688 becoming a Constitutional Monarchy when the Kingdom of Scotland legally remained what it claimed to be in The Declaration of Arbroath and in the Edinburgh-Northampton treaty.

      The point being that the sovereignty of the three country Kingdom of England legally rests upon the Crown which in turn, (due to the Glorious Revolution, 1688), rests with the Westminster Parliament. While legal sovereignty in Scotland has continued to rest upon the people of Scotland and until now we have never been asked to give our permission for our legal sovereignty to passed to anyone or any government body.

      If we now, as a majority, vote NO, Then we will indeed have been asked. If we say NO we will have given away the most precious thing a human being ever owns.(and I quote from the Declaration of Arbroath)

      “It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself..”

    129. alexicon says:

      A bit of light relief, but oh so true, that should be shared.

      Bill Rants At UK Gov Leaflet on Scottish Independence

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HufQ8yWdPKE

    130. Well here I am a nationalist all of my life A SCOTTISH NATIONALIST to make it certain.If we lose our country then even in my decrepit state will have to seek life in a country that is willing to be a country.I could not endure the shame of my fellow Scots who think we should doff our caps,tug the forelock,or bend my knee to our lords and masters I cant do that.I have lived my life in the hope of independence take that away and I have nothing,no longer any hope of being a true Scotsman independent and proud to have my country.Have my country run by fellow Scots for the best of Scotland,what shall we be called? Northern Britain? Scotlandshire? the County of the Scot? will we be able to use the word ScotLAND will we have to remove “Land” from Scotland.Who could bear the pain and the shame? I suppose those who voted for personal greed or monetary gain.

    131. desimond says:

      @Bugger (the Panda)

      Sadly FIFA is even more pathetic when it comes to voting coalitions than the UK. All 4 UK member associations are deemed vital for voting pacts with other groups around the world. Scotland will always survive football wise as its vote is deemed extremely worthy as is Northern Irelands and Wales’.

    132. Haggis Hunter says:

      This should hit a cord with all but the most extreme pro England Seperatists

    133. goldenayr says:

      It would seem that BT have bussed in a lot of supporters to Brigton.

    134. goldenayr says:

      Haggis Hunter

      Eh?

    135. @Charles Patrick O’Brien

      I think you need to rethink that one, Charles. Can you imagine going somewhere else to live, having folk hear your accent and asking where you come from? What would you tell them? I come from the only country that voted itself out of existence?

      Not for me – I couldn’t stand the humiliation. I doubt I’d ever leave this region again.

      This is one depressing thread!

    136. Robert Peffers says:

      I’ve been preaching that particular sermon for decades. That is the entire basis for my harping on about the Articles of Union contained in the Treaty of Union. It is the basis for my constant claims that the Treaty of Union is legally a union of Kingdoms, not one of a union of countries.

      It is also the basis of the, “Scottish Claim of Right”. It is based upon the three country Kingdom of England in 1688 becoming a Constitutional Monarchy when the Kingdom of Scotland legally remained what it claimed to be in The Declaration of Arbroath and in the Edinburgh-Northampton treaty.

      The point being that the sovereignty of the three country Kingdom of England legally rests upon the Crown which in turn, (due to the Glorious Revolution, 1688), rests with the Westminster Parliament. While legal sovereignty in Scotland has continued to rest upon the people of Scotland and until now we have never been asked to give our permission for our legal sovereignty to passed to anyone or any government body.

      If we now, as a majority, vote NO, we will indeed have been legally ask. We will then have given away the most precious thing a human being owns. (and I quote from the Declaration of Arbroath).

      “It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself..”

    137. Bob Sinclair says:

      @Soda
      One word:
      NORWAY

    138. JLT says:

      This is one depressing thread!

      No. This is an angry thread.

      Angry because there are many people who should be seeing the light, but refuse because either they can’t be bothered, or are doing it for selfish reasons such as I’m make lots of money or I believe in the Union because I love believing that I’m a member of the Orange Order when in fact, I never even been to one of their hall meetings.

    139. chalks says:

      It could be argued that the Treaty of Union was ripped up when we decided devolution was the course, why do we have health and education devolved if we are better together?

      In the event of a No vote, I’d be quite happy to see all powers extinguished, we are all adults and those on the yes side seem to understand and know full well what we are voting for. We understand the question, it says it all that this is designed to make the no voters think twice about casting their vote.

      Half of them have taken no part in the debate, if they did, you’d see them outnumbering the yes teams. You don’t though.

      The reason why I would be happy to see Scotland pretty much extinguished is that finally, that 20% of potential yes voters that exist on the no side, might finally understand that we aren’t a fucking country.

      And we certainly won’t be if we vote No, it sounds bitter, but if it’s a no vote, Scotland and her people deserve everything that is thrown at them. Sad as it is to say, but I think getting rid of the national teams would have more of an effect than 10 economic advisers saying we’d be rich!

    140. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      @iheartScotland says:
      BTP,
      No more Scottish team, I wonder how many 90 minute patriots have considered that.

      Independence … There’s no substitute.

    141. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers
      Worth repeating Robert! The pity is that few children in Scottish schools have ever been taught anything important about our history. Nor do we have a definitive collection of Scottish History edited by historians and published by a university similar to the 16 volume Oxford History of England. Something to be rectified after independence?

    142. Croompenstein says:

      I was out a walk earlier and just happened to bump in to one of the angry old unionists who had been at yes meeting. I said hello and we talked about the weather but you could have cut the atmosphere with a knife.

      I would love to go 100/200 years in to the future to find out what historians make of this unique point in our history

    143. goldenayr says:

      OT

      The beeb back on form with this.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28360366

    144. goldenayr says:

      JLT

      We’re on the home stretch.Don’t let them wear you down.Plenty of time to get angry in the unlikely event of a no.

    145. Dan Huil says:

      Brilliant article in Bella.
      What we independence “anoraks” must remember is that many voters are only just beginning to address the referendum question.
      We may have been assiduously following every twist and turn in the debate for months and years but they haven’t.
      What we see as the bloomin’ obvious repercussions of a No vote they may blindly see as “business as usual”.
      We must start with the basics every time we discuss independence with a “don’t know” or “no” voter.
      We must be patient – easier said than done, I know.
      I’ll be using the many good points raised in the bella article when next discussing independence.

    146. Ron Maclean says:

      The Yes campaign can’t use this – it’s far too negative. Positive campaigns always win. Sit back and relax it’ll be alright on the night. Maybe.

    147. heedtracker says:

      @ goldenayr, another day, another round of project fear from corrupt liars at the BBC, “uncertainty, biggest fears, weak employment, give us more money suckas” So much for BBC neutral run up period. I hope the liar that wrote doesn’t get a pay rise next week and they can strike as long as they like too.

    148. emel60 says:

      Some posts have alluded to ‘us’ playing England in November and centred there comments around singing ‘Nationalist songs’. I believe if this country is foolish enough to sign it’s ‘death warrant’ on Sept 18th. we should cancel that match and all other sporting activities that bear the name Scotland and allow a UK team as that will, in effect, be the country we live in. It will NEVER be my country and I will indeed, feel I am a foreigner, living on a land mass with people who voted No. How I address that is for now, too awful to contemplate. I hope that my fellow voters see the light on Sept 18th and vote Yes. The only correct decision for this wonderful nation of Scotland.

    149. David Heffron says:

      I was born in 1978. Not 1678, so the act of Union doesn’t really matter to me. I’m alive now and what happens now is what’s important, not some dream. Certainly not because of the lyrics of a song.

      “submit to rule”?
      “apron strings”?

      These are lines designed to make us feel less macho and it’s sad. Most of the argument here is simply emotional appeals to sports fans. Grow up.

    150. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      iheartScotland

      SFA?

    151. goldenayr says:

      heedtracker

      Now there’s a thought to put a smile on our faces.

      “BBC on Strike Till After the Referendum”

      Don’t know who this “thinktank” is either.Pretty small potatoes from their operations profile.

    152. Footsoldier says:

      After a No vote, a scheming Westminster might well encourage Scottish identity, without power of course, to keep the natives happy and will ensure that a referendum never happens again. The establishment have had a big fright and will have learned a major lesson. All a bit surprising that Cameron signed up to the Edinburgh Agreement in the first place.

      With exactly 2 months to go today to the referendum, I am struggling to see a population euphoric by the prospect of their nation’s independence.

      I still await Yes rebuttals of No claims. I know we need to win over Labour voters but when is there going to be an exposé of how bad Labour was when in power. For most of the 20th century and all of the 21st, Labour has been in power in Glasgow. Why then is the poverty and deprivation among the worst in Western Europe as are health and life expectancy rates? When you consider No claims of “best of both”, how is the foregoing explained away, especially when we have had Scottish prime ministers and chancellors. Why are these questions not being asked and answers demanded?

    153. JLT says:

      Goldenayr,

      I won’t get angry if it’s a ‘No’ vote. I’ll just walk away. I have a ton of things in my life to get on with. To be honest (LOL), I’m actually deep down knackered. On top of work (9 hour day), I’m also doing my Open Uni History course (which is just great. 16 hours a week, but I Love IT!!!), on top of keeping an eye on Wings, papers, BBC AND canvassing too …and oh aye, I have a wife in there too! Seriously, my time is just gone. It really is!

      If it is a ‘No’ vote, life will go on. I will be disappointed, but absolutely no regrets. In my eyes, we all tried to do something better. We aimed for a higher ideal. That is something to be very proud off. I won’t be angry, nor will I have regrets.

      I’ve already growled at one of my ‘No’ friends this morning on Facebook after posting Bella’s article. Once again, blah, blah, Yes, blah, uncertainty to which I warned him of the double-edged sword of uncertainty. As I told him, ‘vote ‘No’ and good luck with that. Just remember whose to blame and who has to REALLY live with that decision in the years to come’. And eh …not heard from him since! May end up having to quietly speak to him later and give him a wee friendly hug.

      Politics, eh! Who would want to get involved (LOL)

    154. iheartScotland says:

      BTP,
      Couldn’t be more concise…..:)

    155. handclapping says:

      I will echo Dan Huil. A registered voter, we’d been chatting over all the scares in the MSM and me trying to put his mind at rest when he comes up with ‘So there will be a vote then. How do we do that?’

      61 days to go and there are still folk at the ‘How do we do that?’ stage. Its up to us to get out and get them.

    156. heedtracker says:

      @ goldenayr, it’s nauseatingly ironic that the nameless BBBC ligger that produce this usual round of vote No project fear brainwashing is now using Scottish democracy to try for a pay rise. They are shameless liars so what can you expect anyway.

    157. galamcennalath says:

      Have faith! Don’t know if anyone else has point to this …

      Lowest poll result for ‘No’ camp since last September

      Chief executive Blair Jenkins said: “This is an extremely encouraging poll – it’s the highest level of support for Yes so far in a TNS referendum poll, and the No lead has more than halved since last September.

      http://tinyurl.com/lowestno

      … in the Hootsman. All to play for, guys! 🙂

    158. schrodingers cat says:

      i think people confuse their identity with what westminster will do to scotland after a No vote

      eg. we could hold this referendum because we had the right to
      after a No, westminster will simply introduce legislation to prevent this situation arising again

      nothing to do with identity, it is called being realistic
      knowing this shouldnt create discord,
      it should spur us all on to greater endevour to ensure Yes wins

    159. Footsoldier says:

      Yup, if it’s a No, a lifetime dream down the plug hole and I’ll be out of politics for the first time ever.

    160. Oneironaut says:

      Definitely this!

      That echoes my own thoughts almost word for word.
      I’d really really really like to be all forgiving and friendly to No voters…
      (Because some of them are genuinely nice people who have just been misled and for some reason refuse to listen to the other side perhaps afraid to admit they may be about to make the biggest mistake in history!)
      But I’m afraid it’s difficult for me to forget that if they win, they’ll have effectively stolen any chance that me and my friends and family may have had at a future where we can “live”, instead of just “survive”.

      Powerful stuff.
      Since I’m doing Yes newspaper rounds at the moment, I’m sorely tempted to take a note of every address occupied by someone who demands I take back the paper because they’re voting No and not going to change their mind. And then post a copy of that article through each one!
      Maybe we all should… 😉

    161. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dinnatouch says: 18 July, 2014 at 10:04 am
      “I’ve been arguing for a while that a No vote is a vote to give up every pretence of nationhood and accept that Scotland is nothing more than a region of a country ruled from Westminster”.

      In that respect, Dinnatouch, we already have been sleepwalked into such an arrangement by the deviousness of the political parties we, in all good faith, voted into Westminster who designed and produced the Devolved Parliaments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland,

      It was they who acceded that Westminster should remain the de facto parliament of the COUNTRY of England. This, due to the make-up of the Westminster country membership. To realise how this came about we must start from the first aims of the union parliament. It was that the Entire United Kingdom was a single kingdom of equals. Thus they cut the entire United Kingdom up into constituent parts, (constituencies), and each constituent part was roughly equal. It returned an individual who was sworn to represent everyone, not just those who voted for them, at Westminster.

      Then, for the benefit of the elected representatives but not the voters, they invented Political parties and democracy died. What also happened right at the start was they did not view the UK as equal constituencies but even then along the lines of country or even the original two kingdoms. Remember that the Union Parliament began on 1 May 1707 but the Jacobite uprisings began in 1688 and continued through the Treaty of Union until 1745 – in effect a Scotland vs England split even before the Treaty was signed.

      So let us consider the situation pre-devolution. There were 533 English, 59 Scottish, 40 Welsh and 18 N. Ireland Members. So come devolution it must have been quite obvious to all that if the four countries did not all get the same level of devolved powers and if England did not also have a devolved parliament that the resultant set-up would become a totally different set-up and an unequal wielding of power from the basic Treaty of Union agreement.

      And so it came to pass – Instead of a union of two equally sovereign kingdoms Westminster instantly became the de facto parliament of the COUNTRY of England and it was now in the position to have those 533 English MPs devolve the powers of the de facto parliament of England to the now subservient three devolved countries and to use that old Scottish expression, “The Ba wis oan the slates”,

      Game over – England that, lost the wars of Independence, has won the peace of the Union of the Kingdoms. The blood of the Scottish heroes was shed totally for nothing.

      That’s the unvarnished truth – The Scottish Labour Party, the feeble fifty, gifted our Kingdom to the country of England. Vote YES or we give up our right to be proud Scots or even to remain, “Proud Scots BUTTS”.

    162. Timorous beastie says:

      New post folks, please share

      todayinscotland | The Referendum Blues
      https://todayinscotland.wordpress.com/

    163. galamcennalath says:

      Everytime I do a google search for anything related to the referendum, I get a UK gove ad (complete with spelling mistake) at the top of the page!

      Scottish Independece – What is our place in the world? – http://www.gov.uk
      http://www.gov.uk/scottishreferendum?
      Make sure you’re in the know 10 myths, 10 facts
      5 reasons to keep the £
      Staying in the UK
      £1,400 better off

      Clearly a paid for Ad. It will undoubtedly lead to BS.

      Should we not be getting Wings up there too?

    164. goldenayr says:

      JLT

      Know exactly where you’re coming from.

      Swap you the Uni course for the kids*,a change is as good as a rest.

      *Would’ve said the wife but wouldn’t put that burden on anyone else…well maybe Darling.

    165. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      YES will win in September.

      Trust the Scottish People (as a collective).

      Everybody keep doing what they have been doing.

    166. goldenayr says:

      galamcennalath

      Re the YES signs I was talking about.Put a link on off topic a couple of days back if you’re interested.

    167. wee jonny says:

      THERE WILL NOT BE A NO VOTE!!!!! Eh ken it.
      She ken’s it.
      Even Patsy Kensit?
      Now settle.

    168. Derek M says:

      @ Ron Maclean i agree wholeheartedly with you.
      Yes this is an emotive piece of writing from a guy who i suspect has been in the debate too long and has been worn down by the lies coming from BT about how the future will look and has tried to counteract it ,nobody and i MEAN nobody can predict the future yes or no ,if i could i would be sticking everything i owned on the next sporting event.
      You can slow down the idea of independence/freedom even curtail it but in the end the idea will win so if we dont do it this time there will be another time,personally i would much rather it happened this time so our kids dont need to go through all this crap again.
      So keep the chin up people and do not let yourselves be dragged into negativity as that has been BT`s plan all along to make us fight them on their ground.

    169. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      if we vote no i dont give a fig if we turn into a 3rd world country. in a sick way i actually feel we would deserve it.

    170. goldenayr says:

      test

    171. goldenayr says:

      Right,I take it we’re getting another DOS attack?

    172. big jock says:

      That’s why I don’t get as excited about team Scotland as I used to. I realised that some of the people passionately supporting the football and rugby teams. Were then going out an ticking Tory or Labour at the general elections. In other words they could not see the hypocrisy of being passionate Scots who want to be run from London. To me democracy and power in Scotland was always restricted to sport for some people. I also never understood the way some people could be passionate about Scottish football but be quite happy having a British athletics team and we know what anthem our athletes are subjected to. To me its an empty gesture pouring your heart out at footbal matches and then going back to being British after 90 minutes. I will get re excited by sport when our nation is real and not a substitute for nationhood.

    173. Joe M says:

      On the subject of nationhood, it should be realised that the Act of Union 1707, like any other act, can be superseded by a new act.

      If there were to be a No vote in September, there would be abundant fervour in Westminster to put the uppity Jocks in their place once and forever. SLab, ScotLibDems and our one tory’s complicity in the creation of a new act removing Scotland’s status as a country would be regarded as the will of ordinary Scots. The No vote would be hailed as the agreement of the people. And the media would love it.

      When the British establishment see their opportunity to remove this perceived threat, they will not waste time. A new act superseding the Act of Union could be through both houses of Westminster and given royal ascent well before the clocks go back in October. The howling, baying and jubilation from the Britnats and their media would cover up thoughts of establishment paedophiles and help put that story back under the carpet. Two birds with one stone.

      Then we would get to watch as our NHS and education were subsumed, homogenised and privatised. Our parliament would be insulted, neutered and reduced to a part-time talking shop, before finally being scrapped as a frivolous expense, the money better spent elsewhere. Sure, the idea of being Scottish would live on in our hearts. But, should the question of independence ever be raised, there will be no referendum, that will have been outlawed. If there were to be future dreams of self-determination, your children and grandchildren would have to find other means to achieving that.

      The idea of seeing the scenario above, and the attendant suffering and shame, unfolding after a No vote gives me nightmares.

      Fortunately, I firmly believe there will a strong Yes vote in September

    174. msean says:

      Why would anyone vote against their own nation to the point where it can’t claim to be a nation anymore? It seems that that is what some voters want to do.

    175. scullys gusset sooker says:

      A no vote does not bear thinking about. A no vote will lay us bare and subject us to uttter humiliation and savage vitriol. It matters not if you voted yes or no, your accent will mark you out as a coward. As a t.a footsoldier, a no vote means i will never attend a scotland game again. The words of flower of scotland will seem hollow to me. That being said, Iam pretty confident of a yes vote. Iam sure eck has a a few aces up his sleeve and is just biding his time.

    176. heedtracker says:

      http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jul/18/john-barrowman-my-family-values

      This guy will, if he has a vote from Palm Springs. http://www.visitpalmsprings.com/deals?gclid=CjwKEAjwi6OeBRCCrZqp-qaQhhISJACrfbtAyH8Qn3jJZGoWzd6AWnl0Y0j2MRwNTTCMhnPn6K70WBoCypTw_wcB

      It’s very nice too, hot and sunny and very dry and a long long way from 60’s Glasgow.

    177. Joe M says:

      big jock says:

      “we know what anthem our athletes are subjected to”

      Would that be the xenophobic anthem that threatens to keep the Scots in their place?

    178. big jock says:

      Yes Joe something about an Anglo/German tax dodger living in a big house in London. Mind you 60 years on the throne a long time to have constipation got to hand to the wee wummin!

    179. heedtracker says:

      Joe M, I thinks it’s Rule Britannia that’s got crush rebellious Scots and not God Save our Queen or whatever it’s called. Rule Britannia was also written by yup, you guessed it, a Scot. Only in the Scotlandshire region of teamGB will you find so many tongues deep in the UKOK crack.

    180. Joe M says:

      From the full UK anthem

      Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
      May by thy mighty aid,
      Victory bring.
      May he sedition hush,
      and like a torrent rush,
      Rebellious Scots to crush,
      God save The King.

    181. Joe M says:

      @heedtracker

      No, it is the anthem. I copied the verse above from the Wikipedia entry for UK anthem.

    182. cynicalHighlander says:

      @goldenayr says:

      Right,I take it we’re getting another DOS attack?

      Is that Drones Over Scotland?

    183. goldenayr says:

      heedtracker

      The last line of your post “UKOK crack”.

      I now have the theme for my nightmare tonight,which I didn’t want btw.

    184. goldenayr says:

      cynicalHighlander

      Naw,that’d be DCUNTS.

      Drones Coming Up North To Scotland.

    185. BT’s re-edit of Flower of Scotland is here:

      http://logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/flower-of-scotland.html

      and for further discourse on the “It Wisnae Me” phenomenon, go here:

      http://logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/it-wisnae-me.html

    186. heedtracker says:

      Yes your spot on Joe, it’s all in wiki

      Around 1745, anti-Jacobite sentiment was captured in a verse appended to the song, with a prayer for the success of Field Marshal George Wade’s army then assembling at Newcastle. These words attained some short-term use, although they did not appear in the published version in the October 1745 Gentleman’s Magazine. This verse was first documented as an occasional addition to the original anthem by Richard Clark in 1822,[38] and was also mentioned in a later article on the song, published by the Gentleman’s Magazine in 1837. Therein, it is presented as an “additional verse… though being of temporary application only… stored in the memory of an old friend… who was born in the very year 1745, and was thus the associate of those who heard it first sung”, the lyrics given being:

    187. Les Wilson says:

      Should we perhaps be giving a airing to the bill going through Westminster about re introducing subscription?

      If this was better used as a case for YES, it may well be productive, as what woman, or indeed men, want their sons to fight in illegal wars? Very few I would think.

      May secure more YES votes, just saying!

    188. big jock says:

      There must be a term for people who join in with he destruction of their own people by a third party.

    189. Black Douglas says:

      @big jock

      I think the word your looking for is

      Collaborator

    190. goldenayr says:

      big jock

      There’s quite a few.

      But in future they’ll be in dictionaries as “Darlings”.

    191. Brotyboy says:

      braco

      Welcome back mate.

    192. Brotyboy says:

      @ weejohnny

      Good one.

    193. ticktock says:

      2-3 months ago for every 1 bt ukok window poster, badge, car sticker etc that I spotted, I’m now seeing 2.

      2-3 months ago for every 1 YES window poster, badge, car sticker etc that I spotted, I’m now seeing 3 or maybe 4. (say 3.5).

      I make these observations and relay them here without any tendency to hopefulness, wishful thinking etc. That’s how it actually looks here on the ground in Glasgow G20.

      Totally unscientific and pretty much worthless as far as predicting an outcome with any certainty is concerned, but nevertheless does provide at least some kind of a broad inkling of the way things may well be going. (here at least).

      ps the scumbag Hothersall is trying to rubbish the Peter Arnott article over on Bella.

    194. Joe M says:

      @heedtracker

      I didn’t actually read through the history of the anthem, though I will do later, I just went there to jog my memory.

      Although the offensive verse has been absent from the official anthem for many years, it is still sung to this day. Having served 24 years in the military, many of them in England, I have heard that verse included on many occasions, including two official functions. The insult did not go unrecognised, but I let it wash over me. After all, I knew something they didn’t, that I didn’t feel any loyalty to the Brit state and I was just doing it for the money and pension, not tattoos and membership of the British Legion.

    195. heedtracker says:

      Joe M, it’s a good line, in our world dominated entirely by England. If we do vote no, it’s going to be true.

    196. KayBee says:

      An excellent article that reflects my own sentiments exactly.

      If Scotland does vote No then I will accept that decision, albeit grudgingly, but without question and crack on with life as best I can in a country/county that had best prepare itself for facing whatever trials and tribulations that Westminster decides it has in store for us – on both the foreign and domestic fronts.

      I, however, will never again EVER refer to myself as Scottish or that I hailed from a country formerly known as Scotland, as we will have effectively & voluntarily given that honour & privilege away forever by voting No.

      That shame will never ever fade with time (for me) and rightly so as it will serve as a constant and permanent reminder that when it came the time for our people to stand tall and make ourselves finally counted in the world – we were simply NOT up to the task as a nation.

      Having said that I still feel very confident that a Yes vote will indeed prevail with an overall record turnout for the referendum and a significant majority of us in favour of independence.

    197. Croompenstein says:

      OT – On Mandela Day a few quotes from the man..

      A Nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but it’s lowest ones

      There is no easy walk to freedom anywhere, and many of us will have to pass through the valley of the shadow of death again and again before we reach the mountaintop of our desires

      Sometimes it falls upon a generation to be great, you can be that generation

      No single person can liberate a country. You can only liberate a country if you act as a collective

      There is no such thing as part freedom

      I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination,” he told the court. “I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons will live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal for which I hope to live for and to see realized. But my lord, if it needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die

      For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others

      Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us

    198. outshined says:

      Long time lurker, but I felt moved to post cause today some of the stuff being posted in this thread is getting as defeatist and negative as the dross we hear daily from BT!

      Undoubtedly there is a significant probability of Westminster (and maybe FIFA!) trying to screw us after a No – and of course we should warn of that – but I get the impression that some posters are almost hoping for such an outcome! Undoubtedly it’s sometimes satisfying to say “I told you so!”, but I nevertheless fail to understand this apparent line of thinking.

      It’s also very easy to think of this debate as black and white (and indeed the options appear such), but I would argue it’s much more nuanced than that. The idea seems to be prevalent in this thread that post-No Scots voters will sit back and acquiesce as Westminster destroys Holyrood and imposes the wildest Tory fantasies on every aspect of our life. Sorry, I just don’t see it, even many No voters will not accept this.

      For me (and I would hope most other supporters of independence) a No vote is a dissapointing hiccup, but by no means the end of the fight. Any No vote is likely to be very narrow and I would suggest that Westminster fears a narrow No almost as much as a Yes – I believe even Darling has said as much, because he knows the issue will still be live – even moreso given the likely ways that the 2015 GE, EU referendum etc will play out.

      I get the impression that some posters on here will give up – or even move away- in the event of a No. People can of course do whatever they want, but I just can’t understand that. Did people in Quebec give up in 1984 and 1995? Did we give up when we “lost” in 1979? The reason we’re where we are now is cause people (many of them unfortunately no longer with us) didn’t give up back then and played the long game to great effect. I certainly won’t be giving up in September in the face of a narrow No and I hope most people on here will be the same!

    199. Kirsty says:

      That was an amazing piece; I just hope it gets a wider audience.

      It also gave me a wake up call as there have been many times that I’ve been so skunnered by the whole debate and by comments I’ve read that I’ve felt that I just wouldn’t even bother to vote. It was a great reminder that if I don’t vote, I’m voting No by omission. I’ll be sure and get my Yes voting shoes on!

      @Joe M, I hope you see this but as a former serviceman would you be able to tell us more about the views of the Scots in the military? The former servicemen I’ve met (I don’t know any servicewomen) are BritNat to the core. Is that actually the case, in your experience?

    200. Joe M says:

      @kirsty

      People join the military for different reasons. Some join in order to escape their environment, serve a short number of years and move on looking for other things. Many who join in order to escape poverty realise that their background and education condemn them to the status of cannon fodder and have no love of the state that created them. Others, like myself, learned to use them, in order to ensure the family were financially secure, while never losing our identities.

      Others join for Boy’s Own style dreams of British glory. They are easily and wilfully brainwashed and become britnat to the core. Many of them have never experienced the realities of life.

      So, like the rest of us they will vote depending on their experience of life and to the extent they have been indoctrinated. The military establishment will be interfering in the indyref, they will be making rousing speeches about centuries of tradition and duty to country. The fact remains, however, that when you are in that polling booth, they have no control over your actions.

      On top of that, there are a lot of aggrieved servicemen serving in Scotland who do not want to be here, having friends and family down south. They will vote yes in the hope of getting posted back home.

      Don’t expect the military in Scotland will swing it for No.

    201. Brian Mchugh says:

      I have not read any of the posts above and am writing this straight from reading the Peter Arnott piece followed by Stu’s… to be honest, I think Stu is partially right. I think we might be looking at 10 to 15 years of pain after an unthinkable NO vote… before it all becomes too much to take and people take to the streets to demand independence.

      We know that the UK is in deep financial doo doo and that over 2/3rds of the Austerity measures are still to be implemented… we know that the current direction of travel will ensure there is no recognisable NHS in 10 to 15 years… that the mega rich will have enjoyed a generation of 15% gains every year on their already obscene wealth… that even the middle class will start to be squeezed, while the numbers relying on foodbanks multiplies exponentially.

      …we know that at some point, even England will vote Labour in, only to again find them indistinguishable from the Torys… we can see this.

      I was about 20, when I first said that it is an inevitability that Scotland will gain independence… it is going to happen and I still stand by that statement, now made well over 20 years ago.

      We can dither and hesitate as we walk over the hot coals towards independence, or we can avoid a hell of a lot of pain by making the jump now.

    202. Molly says:

      Outshined,
      I will never give up working towards Independence ( I actually think it will be a Yes vote) but I would just love it , if in this debate maybe someone , just someone would ask the no side of the debate the answers to the questions raised above.

    203. YESGUY says:

      kirsty.

      I am an ex soldier and most of my friends who joined see Scotland as a home and independent country in a union.

      very few would say they are British first.

      It’s an old tired myth that the men and women who serve our armed forces are ” brainwashed int being British” , so to speak. I spent years with English battalions and the Scots always gave it plenty to the rest . We were or are Scots troops. Fact.

      The English/Welsh and Irish basically said the same. We served the union but we were who we were. I can assure the “Jock battalions” were very vocal about it too.

      Funny thing is overseas we saw many Scots who had done very well abroad and there was a feeling of pride whenever we met. We saw Scots , all over the world being successful and know that we are a capable lot. Why not our country? It’s full of the same dedicated hard working people?

      Patriotism is a weird thing. It has many definitions and views.

      I feel Scotland is where i belong. A place where everyone has a commonality about it. I grew up here in an mining town and felt the pits were for someone else , not me.The forces were an opportunity. I have stayed overseas and enjoyed it but Scotland was my home , always will be.

      I must say that i was always welcomed wherever i went in the uk , We respect our troops , they are our sons and daughters. But we never joined up because we were patriots. Most my age escaped the miners strikes and Thatchers Uk. It was and is an opportunity for learning trades and seeing the world. Be we never naive to think queen and country. More like watch my mates back.

      I have family still living there and don’t think they will return but Scotland is they’re home too.

    204. I’m another ex-Serviceman and I echo what YesGuy said, Kirsty.

    205. Banock1314 says:

      This comment, is one of the most truthful things written

      If we had any dignity at all, a No vote would be followed by the disbandment of all Scottish national sporting teams, the reinstatement of “God Save The Queen” as the official Scottish national anthem at all occasions, and Holyrood reverting back to the title of “Scottish Executive” rather than Scottish Government, to reflect its proper status as a regional council. If we’re the UK, we should start acting like the UK

    206. Kirsty says:

      Joe M, YesGuy, Roddy,

      Thank you so much! That was really interesting to read. I’d been a little bit concerned because all the servicemen I know (through my dad, who was in the army for around 27 years) are vehemently BritNat and I do mean vehement! So I’d wondered if was something to do with being in the military. They are, however, an older generation – my dad’s pushing 80 – so maybe it’s just a generation thing, or even a who my dad knows thing!

    207. Cag-does-thinking says:

      Well you certainly can’t accuse of us all of false optimism on this thread. I don’t know if many of you remember a while back a headline in the Sun which read something along the lines of Rise Now and Be a Nation again, in relation to some election or another. The day after the election or whatever the Daily Record carried the headline “Subside Now and be a region again”. Despite not being a member of the SNP that headline hurt. It hurt my pride in my country and my faith in my fellow Scots. It was a low point but here we are in a far stronger place from those days. We are as a people much better informed and guided by a far more active social media and reactive counter argument which has caused the scales to fall from many eyes. I think we’ve got to the stage where in most minds at least the potential consequences political and socially of voting no are much more apparent. I have faith that faced with informed choice people will choose to be in charge of their own destiny. This is a vital moment both in the history of Scotland and indeed the history of the UK and we just have to keep informing, persuading and winning the argument as we have these last few months. I look forward to the day that the Daily Record has to carry that headline A Nation Again through gritted teeth.

    208. braco says:

      Brotyboy,
      Thanks min, it’s great to be back! If your ever in Largs I’m in the YES shop 10 till late, would love to meet you. Coffee biscuits, wine beer and crisps all available at my discretion (who needs money?)

      How about you Calum. It’ is just a hop skip and a jump away from Ayr ! How are you all settling in now your home?

    209. KayBee says:

      Likewise I am ex-HM Forces, and joined up in order to obtain a job & trade for bringing back into civvie street when my colour service was up – nowt to do with loyalty to Queen and country (for me at least) – your other mucker’s in the same troop, well that was a completely different story as you would risk your neck for them without question, but certainly not through any kind of loyalty to the politician ‘anchors’ (with a silent W) at Westminster.

      @Joe M

      I concur about your comments RE:the additional verse in God Save The Queen – not always sung but I do recall a couple of smokers evenings & summer balls where the verse was belted out good-style by many of our English brothers in arms towards the end of the evenings festivities.

      Like yourself, I just let it pass at the time as making any kind of fuss would have achieved absolutely SFA.

    210. Andy-B says:

      Brilliant piece by Peter Arnott,I think the emphasis, really is, if do end up voting no, then we’ll all suffer the consequences of Westminster’s actions, the only difference will be that yes voters, saw it coming, and no voters didn’t.

    211. Juteman says:

      Banock1314 used a word that is important.
      Dignity.

    212. Grouse Beater says:

      Well, I beg to differ, a little.

      I agree with a lot of what Arnott argues, some of his ire echoed in my own blogs.

      Westminster will call the plebiscite a fail if we vote Yes by less than 60%, or even 60% of those who take the time and trouble to vote. A torrent of reactionary rhetoric will come down on our heads, lecturing us about ‘solid mandates’ and all sorts of parliamentary tactics proposed to impede any move to autonomy, because we did not say Yes emphatically.

      Westminster politicians are apt to toss in the spurious claim 400,000 Tory voters in Scotland are not represented, hence, they sure as hell will describe a low vote as ‘not a defining majority’ knowing our will to be vulnerable.

      Every argument, every doctrine, has a weakness. Arnott is expressing righteous anger, one can argue, externalising a fear that we might say No, even by a small number.

      But that won’t extinguish the Scots character that has survived over 300 years of rule by another nation.

      If we claim we survived in spite of everything, then that robust aspect won’t disappear on a No vote, and certainly not a No win my a small margin.

      In that event there will be the knashing of teeth and the hurling of animosity against those too timid to take back their own country, and incomers determined we never do.

      Hope lost normally sees itself expressed in despair, but it will be a temporary desolation. The Japanese survived two atomic bombs, and more recently, a devasting tsunami.

      Scotland will survive a No vote.

      I hope it will get smarter if there is no be a second.

      We forget the mess England is in, ruled by unrestructured Thatcherites, putting their faith in a high speed train as the solution to a greater spread of wealth, $1.5 trillion in debt, waving fascist slogans, and so on, and so forth. It is in the throes of painful change.

      Seeing that weakness, knowing our own strengths, Scotland will be emboldened to try again to run our own affairs as we think fit.

      The sad part will be the elderly who struggled all their lives for this moment, for a fine ideal, and see no more time to regroup and double effort.

      The torch will be handed to the young.

    213. dramfineday says:

      Kirsty @ 6.24

      chin up, my old in law fought in Burma against the Japanese and is a vehement YES (and he’s 93 by the way). Like others in some of the comments above, he was fighting for his mates, king and country didn’t enter into it.

      In fact if I every want to light the “blue touch paper” all I have to do is “innocently” ask him how he and his mates were treated on the voyage out, subsequent arrival in India, travel to the front and subsequent battles. Expletives deleted as they say in the best of company!!

    214. kininvie says:

      What I liked best was the emphasis on the moral responsibility that No voters must accept. A No vote is not the easy option it might seem to many people. It is actually just as weighty a choice as a Yes vote. This is something I do occasionally say to No voters – but of course I’m usually dismissed as barking mad….

    215. Blair paterson says:

      If there. Is a no vote I will be first in the in line to join the s.r.a .i wil do what the no camp do fight dirty vote yes

    216. John Young says:

      Ian Price
      To Me
      Today at 7:13 PM
      Hi John,

      We have successfully processed your generous donation of £0.01.

      We really appreciate your decision to donate to the Scottish Labour Party – and own a piece of our campaigns.

      Together, we can create real change – and it starts now with this donation.

      Our promise to you is to use this money wisely to help build a campaign fighting for Scotland’s future, and we want you involved every step of the way.

      Thank you for your support.

      Ian

      Ian Price
      Scottish General Secretary

      PS. there are certain checks we need to make on big donations, so we might need to be back in touch – but if you don’t hear from us you can assume that everything is ok.

      Reply, Reply All or Forward | More
      Me
      To Ian Price
      Today at 7:30 PM
      Sadly Ian my donation like the SLAB is a joke.
      Everyone I know is voting YES for a better Scotland.

      Better Together-No Thanks – are You Yes Yet?

    217. North chiel says:

      When you enter that booth on September 18th
      Just remember these 3 simple lines :
      Yesterday’s history
      Tomorrow’s a mystery
      TODAY’S A GIFT , VOTE YES

    218. Paula Rose says:

      I’m spending pennies big time!

    219. Paula Rose says:

      Damn – need a new checkbook, and all those freepost addresses.

    220. Rock says:

      Scots will have no choice but to call themselves ‘British’ overseas.

      Otherwise we will be a laughing stock.

      Endlessly hearing about England’s ‘win’ in 1966 will sound pleasant in comparison to being endlessly reminded about voting No.

      The ‘Braveheart’ sentiment is being suppressed by the official Yes campaign, but voting No will be the ultimate betrayal of all those Scots who fought so bravely for Scotland to remain independent.

    221. Paula Rose says:

      Rock dear – we are voting Yes, stop being silly.

    222. Mark Coburn says:

      Sorry for elbowing in here sideways.

      Just a message to say a massive thanks to all, and Stuart obviously, who promoted, donated, shared and retweeted my fundraising page for the yes groups and Maryhill foodbank. There’s still 11 hours to go if anyone feels like contributing: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/500-miles-in-5-days/x/4544463

      We’re currently sitting at £9,255. That’s 173% of the target which was set at £5,350 (indiegogo fee included).

      Thank you so much!

    223. Muscleguy says:

      Been at my uncle’s funeral today. But I agree Arnott’s piece is very powerful having just now read it. Not sure I would have bothered to read it on Bella as it didn’t look promising so thanks Stu for pointing it up.

      Now how to get my No supporting family members to read it . . .

    224. Let`s all sing that heart warming 4th or 5th verse of “God Save The Queen” at the Commonwealth Games that exhorts our friendly neighbours – “WITH SCOTS TO CRUSH, God Save our Queen”.

      The elimination of these verses – only in recent years – from the English National Anthem, should sicken every Scot.

      Perhaps someone can fill in the entire anthem, so we can sing ONLY that verse over and over at the Commonwealth Games or during our forthcoming International Football qualifying game of the European Nations Cup – versus the new nation state( created by FIFA ) of Gibraltar?

    225. Allan H says:

      What utter nonsense.

      Scotland IS a nation but is part of a united group of countries. By saying NO we are simply saying that as a nation we want to remain part of this union. We still have our identity, our history and our heritage. No matter which way the referendum falls, these facts will never change. Suggestion we disband Scottish supporters groups is nothing but a pathetic and cheap attempt to stir up fear. The question in the referendum is not do we want to stop being Scotland it’s do we want to stop being part of the union.

      I for one have not decided but this article has done nothing except anger me at the levels of propaganda and xenophobic nonsense that has dogged this entire debate – from both sides.

      No matter which way you decide to vote, Scotland will always be a nation and you will always be Scottish.

    226. Patrician says:

      I don’t see this thread as being defeatist or depressing, I see it as an expression of anger. Being angry isn’t always a bad thing, it will re-energise people by reminding them of the bad things that could happen if you don’t work hard enough.

    227. Correction

      The 6th verse of “GOD SAVE THE QUEEN” is as follows –

      “Lord grant that Marshal Wade
      May by thy mighty aid
      Victory bring.
      May he sedition crush
      And like a torrent rush
      Rebellious Scots to CRUSH
      God save the Queen” – ends.

      The anthem I will sing in future.

    228. Jim says:

      Scotland is done with if there is a no vote. We will become what they have always insisted is all we are, nothing more than a region of the UK.
      Alistair Carmichael was proclaiming in PMqs about devolving powers to cities, Orkney and the Shetland Islands circumventing Holyrood which will be deemed unnecessary as the settled will of the Scottish people is to be Governed by Westminster.
      Vote no and Sept 19th will be the day a nation died.

    229. Jim says:

      This is what some of them really think about us:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUE-yyZ6rVI

    230. Jim says:

      @WantonWampum

      Forgive me if I don’t join in but ma mither wid scrub ma mooth oot wi’ carbolic.

    231. CameronB Brodie says:

      Juteman says: 18 July, 2014 at 6:51 pm

      Banock1314 used a word that is important.
      Dignity.

      Croompenstein says: 18 July, 2014 at 3:55 pm

      OT – On Mandela Day a few quotes from the man..

      For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.

      Though not a saint I certainly think Mr. Mandela had a lot of dignity.

      Dignity is a concept used in moral, ethical, legal, and political discussions to signify that a being has an innate right to be valued and receive ethical treatment.

      After 307 years under colonial rule from London, Scots will finally have the chance to respect the dignity of our nation and reject the imperialism of British nationalism. Essentially the same struggle as Mr. Mandela.

      Are you up to it Scotland?

    232. mike says:

      I read Peter Arnott’s piece this morning and it is both chilling, depressing but such a brilliant article. The problem I have is that the only people that I fear will read it are the already converted.
      The challenge is how to get it read by confirmed ‘No’ voters and undecided.

    233. Muscleguy says:

      @Jim

      I wonder what the reaction will be when the Chancellor of the Exchequer stands up in the rUK parliament after Scottish Indpendence Day, or even in advance of it, and admits that further austerity will be necessary due to the low tax receipts from Scotland leaving, the lack of North Sea Oil receipts, all the whisky duties and taxes being paid in Scotland and credited to our GDP, the lowering of rUK’s GDP per head after our higher per head is removed etc. etc. etc. Showing that their silly ignorance of how we are not subsidised is wrong.

      At whom and what will their anger be directed?

    234. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      “Rock dear – we are voting Yes, stop being silly.”

      So Peter Arnott should not have written that article and Rev Stuart should not have wholeheartedly endorsed it?

    235. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      The vast majority of Yes voters have grave concerns that we will either fall short, or more likely, we will be cheated out of victory by rigging.

      Not one person in the Yes camp is “being silly”.

    236. Thepnr says:

      @Rock

      I think the vast majority of Yes voters believe that Yes will prevail on 18th September. That is what we are working towards.

      Pointing out the potential consequences of a No vote is not the same as saying a No vote is to be expected. It is in fact just another argument for supporting a Yes vote.

      I also wholeheartedly endorse the Peter Arnott article, it is a warning of the consequences of a No vote, not a prediction.

    237. Achnababan says:

      I have a young son and if there is a NO vote I will encourage him to be more Scottish than me. Even if we don’t get independence this time around we can switch our energies and creativity to creating a Scottish society that offers some hope to the rest of the world that diversity has a value and role in the future of this planet.

      In Schools, local councils and our institutions we can work hard to promote Scottishness in everything we do – no more hiding, no more sheepish tolerance of creeping American-anglo imperialism – to be honest I may find that scenario more challenging and exciting than a yes vote won on the basis of pensions, the price of oil and interest rates (and appearing to be anything but Scottish…)

    238. Paula Rose says:

      Peter Arnott is eloquently expressing the point many of us have been making – No is not a vote for the status quo, it is a vote for subservience – Rock honey, Paula is fucking livid with rage at the way the British establishment is mocking our people.

    239. Jim says:

      @PaulaRose

      I disagree, no is like a turkey voting for Christmas.
      This country is gone if we lose this, we wont even have the romantic thought of being a separate country again if this fails because this will be deemed as the collective will of the populace of the Scottish region of the UK.

    240. Rock says:

      Thepnr,

      “I think the vast majority of Yes voters believe that Yes will prevail on 18th September. That is what we are working towards.

      Pointing out the potential consequences of a No vote is not the same as saying a No vote is to be expected. It is in fact just another argument for supporting a Yes vote.”

      We are certainly working very hard towards a Yes, but if a vast majority believes that Yes will prevail, why are there hundreds of comments on W O S articles regarding the dirty tricks of the MSM and especially UKIP TV?

      We wouldn’t be that bothered would we if we believed we were winning?

      Why would we be so bothered about the consequences of a No vote if we believed we were winning?

      Why all the comments about the partiality of the Electoral Commission?

      I do believe that democratically there will be a Yes vote on 18th September, but I don’t trust the British Establishment one bit and I am very worried that they will rig the result.

    241. Paula Rose says:

      @ Jim – it is up to every one of us to talk to everyone we meet, we are the Yes campaign. We will win this, we are the people of this nation, me – I’m from England, I chose to live in this land, I love living here – I want the best.

    242. Paula Rose says:

      Five a ay honeys – not long now, the future beckons.

    243. Paula Rose says:

      D day

    244. Jim says:

      @Rock
      I don’t think any Yes voter is worried for themselves, they are always going to vote yes. Rather because the no voter will vote no and the undecided are the rogue element who will make or break this.
      Believing in something will not make it happen so we must make it clear exactly how a no vote will affect everyone including the no voters, the undecided and those that can’t be arsed but will complain either way.

    245. Jim says:

      @Paula Rose
      You do not need to state you are from England unless countering claims that this independence referendum is anti-English, it matters not.
      You are a citizen of this country, that is all that matters.
      It’s not, where you are from, it is where you are at and where you are going.

    246. Paula Rose says:

      Silly me, I was forgetting…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2GwNaLVgt8

    247. Jim says:

      @Paula Rose
      We didn’t start the so-called financial crisis either but we are going to pay if there is a no vote.

    248. Paula Rose says:

      There will not be a No vote win Jim – because we will all be out there talking rationally to our fellow men and us women will batter heads if need be.

    249. Ian Brotherhood says:

      And here’s another, for the DKs and 90-min ‘patriots’:

      http://nairnyes.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/scottishfeartlion.jpg

    250. Jim says:

      @Paula Rose

      I hope so Paula otherwise, God help us all!

    251. Paula Rose says:

      Ffs – young Ian Sisterhood needs a future like many others – so be it – get out there and deliver.

    252. Paula Rose says:

      AND IF THERE IS A NO WIN I”M GOING TO BE VERY ANNOYED AND YOU DON”T WANT TO SEE THAT.

    253. Brian Ritchie says:

      “my old in law fought in Burma against the Japanese and is a vehement YES (and he’s 93 by the way).”

      Yep, my dad was also in Burma, is 94, and is also a YES. I wonder if they ever met? Who knows. 🙂

    254. roberto says:

      The Rev.Stu,s post should be made into a leaflet and delivered to every house
      in Scotland.

    255. I am the hub, if you like, for my old class at school. I’ve got all the addresses and contacts, I organise our reunion, every five years.

      When I read Peter’s piece on Bella Caledonia, I immediately cut and pasted it, before sending it out to the 40 or so I’ve got on e-mail. Most are still in Scotland, but, we have a healthy chapter down south, I refere the them as the Sudetenland Chapter.

      At the time of writing, what responses I have had have been generally supportive. One former class-mate, now retired from teaching in a very good university in the American mid-West, tells me, the Caledonian Diaspora in that airt are very interested in what is happening “back home”, and, generally supportive of a Yes outcome.

      Two members of the Sudetenland Chapter are virulently anti-independence, however. But since one of them made millions in banking and the other is someone whose 30-years in the RAF earned him an OBE, I am not surprised at their advocation of the status quo.

      A third in the SE, a self-made millionaire, originally an advocate of BT, has now come over to the Yes camp, to the extent,he is selling-up in Sussex and returning to Scotland.

      Those in the south, still feel miffed at not having a vote, however.

      All who have responded admit, they had largely swallowed the propoganda from the London media, and had had their eyes opened by the article.

    256. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “No matter which way you decide to vote, Scotland will always be a nation”

      No, it won’t. That’s what we’re about to decide. Either Scotland will BECOME a nation again, or it will decide – for the first time ever democratically – that it wishes to forever be a region of another nation (the United Kingdom). However much you delude yourself, it can’t be both at once.

      I’m not going to get bogged down in dictionary definitions of “nation” and “country” and “state” and whatever. The only MEANINGFUL definition of a nation is a place that elects its own governments. Scotland currently does not, and as such is not a nation. We just PRETEND that we are, because we’ve never been forced to face up to the choice until now.

    257. Jim says:

      @Muscleguy

      Maybe they will have an epiphany and demand that the government of rUK follow Scotland’s lead in providing a better future for it’s citizen’s.
      More austerity measures are coming our way and it will not only affect the poor, working class but also the so-called middle classes.
      What it wont affect is the minority rich, austerity measures will never affect them and they know it.
      Question for you: Do you think Boris has those water cannons for a reason?

    258. Andy says:

      A yes vote is a vote to break the Treaty of Union. A no vote…isn’t. The Scottish Football Association? – unaffected either way. The Scottish Rugby Union? – unaffected either way.

      I thought scaremongering pish was the last refuge of the No Camp? That is certainly how it has been presented on most other stories.

      As for the commentators bringing up 18th Century Jacobite rebellions – FFS. This referendum is about tomorrow, not yesterday. How are you any different to the bams who go marching every July celebrating events from the same period?

    259. Andy says:

      >>>>>The only MEANINGFUL definition of a nation is a place that elects its own governments.

      So Scotland wasn’t a nation before the Union?

      I think we both agree it was, democracy or no. Which means that the Union was legitimate, democracy or no. Which means a democratic decision to maintain the status quo – if that’s what happens – means it is the same nation it was in 1707.

    260. Paula Rose says:

      Andy dear – are you having problems deciding if this is about tomorrow or yesterday, you seem a bit confused.

    261. Andy says:

      I am quite clear on what it’s about thanks Paula.

      I notice none of the bams have brought up Scots Law. Is that going to disappear with a No vote too? Thought not.

    262. Paula Rose says:

      So Andy love – do you have a good reason to vote No?

    263. Andy says:

      Practical – economies of scale. It seems utterly pointless in a country our size to encumber ourselves with all the institutions that currently operate on a UK basis.

      Personal – I’m Scottish, my parents are English and Welsh (they’ve been in Scotland for 65 years). Independence has no gut appeal for me, I have never felt that “they” are different down there in the way that some of the crackpots on this site do. You know, the ones who think that De Valera could teach us something about how to protect Scottish identity.

    264. Paula Rose says:

      Which institutions that work so well do you mean? And I’m not understanding your references to ‘crackpots’ and ‘De Valera’ please elucidate.

    265. CameronB Brodie says:

      Andy
      Hi, hope you don’t mind me chipping in. IMO, The Scottish Football Association is a unionist sham, The Scottish Rugby Union is a unionist sham, indeed, most Scottish institutions are shams. They all pose as national bodies when they actually represent a ‘region’, in terms of political freedoms. Are you not a fan of self-determination?

      Am I a bam?

    266. Paula Rose says:

      And while you are at it could you please explain to me the benefit to society of starving people – or is that to do with economies of scale?

    267. Jim says:

      Why do you feed the trolls?

    268. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jim
      And you are? 😉

    269. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So Scotland wasn’t a nation before the Union?”

      I’m sorry, I naturally assumed that when we were talking about “meaningful” things that rather implied “now, not 400 fucking years ago”.

    270. CameronB Brodie says:

      So that wasn’t clear and a bit sharp. I meant who are you?

    271. CameronB Brodie says:

      So _ Sorry. 🙂

    272. Jim says:

      I still don’t understand what you mean?

    273. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jim, the “so” was meant to be sorry, as in an apology for being nippy. The original question was asking you why you felt it appropriate to decide who is or isn’t a troll. I know I did the same myself the other day, but that was a deliberate attempt to provoke a response to my questions to a repeat miscreant.

      Once again, sorry for being nippy.

    274. Jim says:

      Ah, I wasn’t referring to you as a troll if you thought that,
      I felt it appropriate because the person I was referring to was a classic troll. Calling people bams is no way to have a reasoned discussion as I don’t think anyone should have any problems with no supporters posting here with their genuine views but to resort to insults whilst doing so is just wrong in my opinion.
      I think some wires have been crossed here but thanks for the apology.

    275. Andy says:

      Cam – yes I am a fan of self determination. Both of the possible results of the referendum will be an expression of that.

      As to whether you are a “bam”, I doubt it. That is a classification I reserve for any posters on these pages who has: got into a froth about the Darien Scheme; regularly brings up 1715 or 45; suggested there should be a list kept of prominent No voters for reference after a Yes result; suggested that No voters are ("Tractor" - Ed)s (or, better, Quislings, before Stuart banned the Q word); suggested that no Scots will listen to Eddie Izzard because he wears lipstick and high heels; suggested they will move abroad if there is a No vote; dressed their 7 year old kids in Yes paraphernalia and taken them to a street protest, then posted pictures of them on the internet, then been shocked when other bams on the internet abuse the kids;

      Paula – yes I believe in social justice. There are people in poverty all over the UK. I have no inclination to cut the poor in the other 3 countries adrift, Scottish socialists have got plenty to contribute to improving conditions for people all over the UK – it’s easier to do that from inside it. AS for De Valera – I am reminded of him by the cultural chauvinists who see the teaching of history as a means to mould or reinforce cultural identity. Who see more value in teaching kids about the Wars of Scottish Independence than Europe between the wars.

    276. Robert Peffers says:

      Andy says: 19 July, 2014 at 5:58 pm:

      ”As for the commentators bringing up 18th Century Jacobite rebellions – FFS. This referendum is about tomorrow, not yesterday. How are you any different to the bams who go marching every July celebrating events from the same period?

      Well Andy, you asked a question and stupid, uneducated and idiotic as it is it deserves an answer. The answer will not contain any such contractions as, “FFS”, nor will it contain slang such as, “BAMS”, but it will tell you exactly what an uneducated, ignorant, unaware and insulting apparent troll you actually are.

      In the first place the 18th Century Jacobite incident could in no way be a rebellion. Here you first expose your ignorance. It resulted from the English only, “Glorious Revolution”, in which the English Parliament deposed the Monarch of ONLY England as The England Parliament, then, being an independent kingdom of three countries, had no legal powers to alter anything in Scotland.

      The English then appointed King Billy & Mary as equal joint monarchs. Once more being an independent kingdom this did not change the Scottish Monarchy. How then could the Jacobites be Rebels? You cannot rebel against a monarch not your own. Ergo – it was an uprising if indeed that.

      Secondly, The Parliament removed the Royal veto over the English Parliament – this made the Three country Kingdom of England a Constitutional Monarchy. This is the basis of modern English Law. Scottish Law from before the Declaration of Arbroath 1320, is based upon the people, not the monarchy, being sovereign. That is still modern Scottish Law.

      The Treaty of Union, that first united the Kingdoms, agrees that the two legal systems remains independent to this very day. So Andy, you are totally wrong on every point and thus exactly as I described you already. Mind you, if you can prove me wrong on any point I will indeed give you an apology. Not though, until then.

    277. Jeannie says:

      @Andy

      Andy, how exactly, if we vote for independence, are we cutting adrift the poor in the other countries of the UK? Don’t they have a vote or something? Can’t they simply exercise their democratic right at the General Election next year and vote for the party which promises to allieviate their suffering? After all, they do in fact constitute over 91% of the electorate of the UK. Why is the inclusion of Scotland’s small population a necessary condition for the relief of the suffering poor in other parts of these islands?

    278. Andy says:

      Robert – the Scottish Parliament removed James VII with the 1689 Claim of Right Act, and subsequently offered the Scottish Crown to William and Mary.

      You’ll be running out of green ink, I’d suggest a visit to the shops.

    279. Andy says:

      Jeannie – because traditionally Scotland returns a significant number of socialist MPs in UK elections.

    280. Caroline Corfield says:

      It’s not a significant number if the number is too small to make a difference. I believe it’s three times since. The end of WWII that the Scots ‘socialist’ MPs have made a difference, and. This last time merely to turn a majority conservative government into a coalition conservative government. Perhaps you ought to check the definition of significant?

    281. Caroline Corfield says:

      You know most folk here are addicted to this blog, and read every comment, like myself. I do not recognise the vast majority of commentary from Andy’s description of ‘bams’, so I wonder if he’s confused this site with somewhere else. No one I know has suggested not teaching Europe between the wars, or suggested it is less important than Scottish history.

      In England primary school children are taught about the Tudors, they are not taught about the aftermath of Elizabeth’s death, they are not taught about her cousin. They next do WWII. At no point do they cover how the UK of GB and NI came into existence. That’s why history is important, you need to know how things ended up the way they are. Otherwise people talk a lot of shite about it due to having picked it up from others with axes to grind or the Classic Chinese whispers of a kind of cultural gossip.

      In a way that’s why some people will bring up Darien because in many cases it’s all totally brand new history to them and it changes their whole perspective. They aren’t bearing a grudge from the 17th century, the grudge is all 21st, it’s food banks and bedroom tax, but Darien and such things as the Covenanters or the Jacobites puts a depth to Scottish history that would help the whole country enormously, in the same way that Alfred the Great, Magna Carta and Elizabeth the First do for England.

      If you don’t learn from history you are doomed to repeat it – if you’re never taught you’re own history then what do you think is going to happen?

    282. Jeannie says:

      @Andy

      And does the rest of the UK never return a “significant” number of socialist MPs? How then, do we get Labour governments. I realise that Labour does not necessarily equal socialist anymore, but I’m not sure who else you’re referring to.



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