The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


Barely worth the words

Posted on November 12, 2014 by

This:

noshipyards

And this:

murphyships

And of course this:

separationshutsshipyards

And then, with crushing inevitability, this:

scotships

All on you, No voters. YOU go to Govan and explain it to them.

Print Friendly

    2 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 12 11 14 19:01

      Barely worth the words | FreeScotland

    2. 12 11 14 19:41

      Barely worth the words - Speymouth

    173 to “Barely worth the words”

    1. heedtracker says:

      Their MP proud Scot but Ian Davidson, might have some explaining to do. Amother OO march called for. Mind you everyone in Aberdeen knew their “Scots oil bad/running out” was a massive teamGB fraud too.

    2. Jim Graham says:

      How many times did we tell fellow Scots that they were being lied to? Barely worth the words and lost for words anyway!

    3. handclapping says:

      Ah who would be on the floor of a doocot when the pigeons come home to roost?

      No, and be shat upon. Aye really

      Second safest seat in Scotland? Tick tock Ian tick tock

    4. Chris says:

      By voting no Scotland lost any influence on these ship yard jobs.

    5. handclapping says:

      PS Barely worth the words? 4 pictures = 4000 words, will you not stop going on about Better Together’s broken promises? 😀

      What is Mags thinking of there behind JoLa’s back?

    6. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      sufferin socatash. who would of thunk it.

    7. Twenty14 says:

      Served my time in the Yards back in the late 70’s when they employed about 30,000 people. Tried to discuss with a NO hoper that a NO vote would make no difference and at the time about 25,000 jobs had been lost under the union – No he screamed ” A YES vote would shut the yards for good , only a NO vote will save them ” – deluded fool

    8. Aidan says:

      Hugely frustrating. Scotland could have been building ships for itself if not for the no vote.

    9. James123 says:

      Fool Scotland once, shame on you, fool Scotland 10,589 times, shame on us.

    10. msean says:

      We know that we hate to be the ones who told the NO voters this would happen but…well, they know the rest. 🙁

    11. One_Scot says:

      Is there no limit to their – ‘lets see how much we can take the piss out of Scotland, they are so stupid, we can pretty much do what we want to them.’

      Probably not.

    12. jock wishart says:

      Don’t blame me I voted yes.

    13. manandboy says:

      The No voters will be getting the picture now.
      Well done Stu.

    14. Nobby Power says:

      And they wouldn’t buy from foreign yards either, if I recall correctly.

    15. Indiaosaka says:

      The shipyard image link takes me to an article about the as-yet-unreleased £300,000 poll.

      Depressed and unsurprised by the news.

    16. Steve Bowers says:

      Heedtracker…. to my eternal shame my city ( Aberdeen) did this, unfortunately there is just too much money up here and the “people” just don’t care

    17. Valerie says:

      It’s been picked up by other pro Indy on FB, so I really hope this one hits home the enormity of the pile of shit yet to be heaped on us.

      Their lack of humanity knows no bounds.

    18. One_Scot says:

      We seriously need an alternative Scottish TV media outlet before the next referendum, or they will just con us again, and there will be no reason not to fall for it again.

    19. Steve Bowers says:

      Findlay Farquaharson … you gotta try succotash some time, delish

      Handclapping …… ” you’re pure dead deed bitch “

    20. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      even if it means losing every job on the clyde i would still vote to stay in the union… Jim Hood, fat scottish labour bast i mean trougher.

    21. Betty Boop says:

      @ Chris, 6:08pm

      By voting no Scotland lost any influence on these ship yard jobs.

      I have already copied an article on this subject for a certain no voter I know.

      Why oh why are Scots voters so gullible? Can it all be down to the Daily Record? Somehow they have to realise it is NOT a Scottish paper and cares nought for the welfare of Scotland and its people.

    22. desimond says:

      ‘Scots Govt to blame for lost contracts’…coming any day soon

    23. dsinlon says:

      But I thought they said they couldn’t even think of building ships in a separate Scotland because it would be a “foreign” country. Pledges? Promises? Powers? Aye right.

    24. Roboscot says:

      They deserve it. No sympathy. Hopefully they’ll emigrate and leave the country to real Scots.

    25. Grizzle McPuss says:

      …and just wait until the fracking malarkey starts to kick in.

      Altogether now…

      “We told you so…but you weren’t listening”

    26. manandboy says:

      The No voters will only learn the hard way.
      No pain – no gain.
      Next broken promise please.

    27. jimnarlene says:

      They really couldn’t give a f”‘k, next time round; it’ll be a yes.

    28. fred blogger says:

      “Mr Davidson says the UK Government does not build warships in other countries and he believes the decision cannot wait until after next September’s vote”.
      https://archive.today/woLXx

    29. fred blogger says:

      sorry posted the wrong link above.
      https://archive.today/uFJGw

    30. fairmersloon says:

      Bet this is cynical news management. Politicians will make an “intervention” and the MOD might well “back down”. Let’s just see which party gains from the politics of this.

    31. Proud Cybernat says:

      Proud Cybernat is incandescent with rage after reading this. You fecking, spineless, No-voting feckers. Blame no one but yourselves when you meet the Atos bloke. You were warned. Stupid, spineless feckers.

    32. Croompenstein says:

      Wonder if that knob on the poster is sleeping soundly tonight…scum the lot of them

    33. John Howieson says:

      And, of course, the BBC News had not a word about this.

    34. Murray McCallum says:

      Even the harder line Labour voter must be seeing what comes of sharing Tory lies to the Scottish electorate.

      What will it take to change their vote?

      The fact that building complex warships overseas is being openly acknowledged as under consideration breaks with all past assurances and promises.

    35. Nana Smith says:

      I await the news from slab or lib dummies that they have negotiated a deal especially for Scotland.

      I just hope no one falls for their lies.

    36. wingman 2020 says:

      Expect Cameron to get in quick and move the orders to France… It will completely blow Murphy and Labour out of the water in Scotland… and hole Milliband below the waterline.

      Unless of course some smart SPAD sees the obvious problem of the Labour party sinking in Scotland. In which case, expect a deal to be struck where Milliband and Murphy rides to the rescue in a Labour propaganda opportunity.

      Either way, Scotland will see it for what it is.

    37. ronnie anderson says:

      Wee Ginger Dugs in the SNP political broadcast,yer a star Ginger withoot the Bru crates.

    38. AuldA says:

      I really queasy about it.
      It’s unsettling to think that a contract transferred to the French industry could mean the demise of a whole Scottish shipyard… with all the nasty consequences.

    39. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      It was all because of the uncertainty.

      Yes, the uncertainty which happened during the referendum and could resurface if we don’t get back in our jock-in-the-box.

      They are taking retaliative measures, just in anticipative strike mode!

      Bayonets out, Bayonets fixed, eviscerate all.

      Eejits, we have Uzis.

    40. CRAIGthePICT says:

      Has anyone fully listed everything yet, regarding the promises and threats that have turned out to be lies? It seems there is barely a day went by without another one being exposed. A clear list of threat/promise vs reality would be very hard-hitting.

      On another topic, just watched the latest SNP party political broadcast starring The Sturge. “wind of change blowing over Scotland , that is unstoppable” is the tagline. Symbolism of young to represent hope for a better future, couple of pensioners with a red umbrella for the aged socialist demographic. Big push on getting the powers we need from the monster. Oh yes, and a bonfire at the end to remind everyone about Lewesgate. Pretty good actually.

    41. Devorgilla says:

      11,000 jobs potentially under threat.

      What do the unions say?

    42. Dubbyside says:

      This looks to me like a deliberate ploy by Cameron to finally finish off Labour in Scotland for good.

      Look for this being confirmed early in the New Year in time to play in the election for Westminster.

      Cameron playing Labour like the idiots that they really are. Just think Labour thought a No vote would kill the SNP stone dead, where have I heard that before?

    43. Dr Jim says:

      Been trying to tell the fishermen the exact same thing.
      As for Aberdeen, they’re not exempt,even if they think they are.
      O/T Anybody seen the new SNP Broadcast…Outstanding, Powerfull moving stuff from the “Wee Yin” She is not “FEART”…Sooo Proud…
      Ah no, ahm like a big girls blouse

    44. Democracy Reborn says:

      Stu, I’ve just checked BBC Scotland News App. Out of 9 items, the Scotsman piece ISN’T one of them.

      On the other hand, if it was pre-18th Sept & the Royal Navy had said “Independence may lead to Clyde ship order going abroad”?…..

    45. Gallowglass says:

      I thought that the UK would not order a major surface vessel for military purposes from another nation?

      We all knew they were lying wankers anyway…

    46. tombee says:

      Aye, and those NO voting shipbuilders who appeared on the TV saying they were supporting ‘BETTER TOGETHER’, also need to check the zips on the backs of their heads.

      It’s taken BETTER TOGETHER less than two months to stuff it right up them, aided and abetted by the entire North British Labour Branch Office bearers.

      LET’S NOT FORGET EITHER, THAT GREAT DEFENDER OF ALL THINGS SCOTTISH TOO, THE Honourable member for the northern Isles, none other than the Secretary of State for Plymouth, Alistair Carmichael.

      The duplicitous BASTARDS.

    47. Grouse Beater says:

      If this was the USA, Brown, Murphy, and certainly Lamont too, would step out their front door in the morning to be confronted by a phalanx of reporters and photographers demanding to know why they promised shipyard jobs were guaranteed when they had damn all power to do that – or worse, knew the MOD was thinking of taking the orders elsewhere.

      As for the workers who believed every grunt and spittle out of Labour politician’s mouth and voted NO – tough!

      How does it feel to be hoodwinked so easily?

    48. effijy says:

      The French shipyard workers get paid a higher rate per hour, have better working conditions, and get better pensions.
      So is it BAE management who are greedy, is it the government that is greedy, or have the Elite money baron’s who control the Red and Blue Tories bought French shares on the cheap?

      It could be that they just don’t give a dam about Scotland?
      Maybe Brown or Cameron could speak in a works canteen over in Edinburgh to allay any fears that we might have!

    49. Malky says:

      Words fail. They really, really do. Gawd. Although, this may be the hootsmon putting the boot in.

    50. Claire McNab says:

      UKanians, say a big warm hello to your new toy. An attack machine which will be billed to the “defence” budget, and which will be almost unmentioned in the mainstream media.

      This cuddly wee puppy is the RAF’s second A400M Atlas transport aircraft, out of a total of at least 22 (http://bit.ly/1zMHPkU). This toyset will cost you at least £2.8 billion just to buy (http://bit.ly/1zMHTRv), but that’s only the start of this spending opportunity. Training the RAF to use these planes will cost £502 million over the next 18 years. Then there will be a huge maintenance bill, plus fuel, plus all the crew. Best to budget £5–10 billion over these puppies’ planned operational life of about 20 years.

      You may have noticed that these planes have no guns. So why call them an “attack” weapon?

      It’s because these toys are useless in defending UKania. If you want to move troops or equipment around the UK, it’s quicker and easier to take them by road. Transport planes are for what the military jargon calls “force projection”, which is a fancy way of saying that your military gets moved into somebody else’s space. Like Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or whoever’s next on the hit list. (Quiet, please, Iran and Syria.).

      Transport aircraft like these are the basic component of a UKaninan attack on a foreign country. It doesn’t matter how many troops or tanks or guns or missiles you have, if they are at home in your shed. Transport aircraft allow you to move your weapons and troops to the place you want to attack. And your new fleet of Atlas planes will be the backbone of your force projection ability for the next two decades.

      Of course, like Barbie, a military toy needs lots of accessories. Such as the new Voyager refuelling tankers, leased on a PFI deal costing £10.5 billion over the next 25 years. Or the Boeing C17 Galaxy heavy-lift transports, of which the RAF now has 8 at a purchase price of £200 million each http://bit.ly/1zMMIu9, which will add up to at least £5billion over their service life.

      So, here’s your bill for at least £20 billion, and by the way we haven’t yet billed you for a single soldier or gun or bullet or missile, never mind the attack helicopters and the fighter jets and the armoured cars.

      Now, don’t be late for the foodbank.

    51. john king says:

      CRAIGthe PICT SAYS
      ” just watched the latest SNP party political broadcast starring The Sturge”

      The Sturge?
      I like it,
      lets go with that one,
      it gives her a certain street cred!

    52. Nana Smith says:

      According to the herald

      MoD insists no plans to change plans to build warships in UK

    53. john king says:

      Effigy @ 7.18
      I think it wouldn’t matter how much more those ship would cost making them elsewhere, they will do it just to spite Scotland.

    54. Dr Ew says:

      I fully expect former Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, James Murphy Esq., will lead a vigorous campaign to secure the contracts and jobs for the Govan yards.

    55. ronnie anderson says:

      Maybe those Union shipyard conveners would be up for a Livestream interview. Would they have the Balls ???.

    56. muttley79 says:

      There is a problem for independence supporters here. Of course we were right to say that the No campaign was a load of bollocks, and all their politicians care about is coining it in, and maintaining their careers in London. Unfortunately, it appears over 50 per cent of the population in Scotland have got so used to the complete mismanagement of economic issues by Westminster, since the 1970s at least, that they must think this is all normal. In the same way that most citizens of Scandinavian nations have got used to the idea of less inequality over the decades (I know there has been a reversal in the last decade or so in Sweden), many No voters must think that the way we are governed by Westminster is normal.

    57. Piemonteis says:

      This all seems a little bit ominous. It is set up for Labour now to take on the cause as the defenders of the shipyard workers. “Vote Labour, and we’ll save the contract and guarantee jobs on the Clyde,” they’ll say. “Vote SNP, and you’ll get a Tory government that will bin the contract and send you on the dole,” they’ll say.

      The problem here is, with the SNP now set to go all out for Devo Supermax or FFA at the election, even if they get FFA, Scotland will have no control over defence and tendering. Therefore, Labour can “claim” they will do something about it. The SNP really can’t.

      Unfortunately, the tendency for gullibility increases when people find themselves looking at dire situations.

      Really, this is not good news for anyone, and although it feels nice to be able to say, “I told you so,” and the Rev’s right for bringing attention to it, the outlook is grim.

    58. Juteman says:

      Am I too cynical in that I see this as a set-up for Murphy?
      Skeletor rides to the rescue?

    59. Donald says:

      When i click on the photo of the Scotsman’s story it takes me to another one re polling.

    60. Nana Smith says:

      Shipbuilding policy unchanged: MoD

      The Ministry of Defence has insisted it has no plans to change the policy of only building warships in the UK, despite reports that the head of the Royal Navy has suggested work could be done abroad.

      https://archive.today/QhCGg

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      This story is now being reported in the Herald, and yet the Defence News article was dated Nov 9th. Macart posted it here, I posted it up in the Herald early this morning (and emailed my MSP to refer on to Angus), and now it’s being reported, by the Scotsman at 16.33, and the Herald later on.

      It shows perhaps the importance of us all doing our rersearch, sharing that with each other, and pushing it into the main media. It’s possible otherwise these stories would never get out.

    62. john king says:

      Claire McNab
      Ooh Miss Moneypenny,
      the boys will all be queuing up for your telephone number!
      Do you have a hatstand? 🙂

    63. Nation Libre says:

      I’m with Fairmelsoon, this seems to be a bit of a game for the Con Party. Every story they put out shafting the Scots, makes Scots hate New/Old/Listening/Reconnecting Labour. When the damage is done, they can step in and save the yards
      Labour really walked right into this. Hell mend them

    64. Stoker says:

      ((((( DON’T BLAME ME – I VOTED YES )))))

    65. Mat says:

      It’s not ‘lack of humanity’, it’s spite, vengeance and punishment. Lots more to come.

      Heard Craig Murray in Kirkcaldy at weekend saying the same thing – do not underestimate the desire down there to kick us long and hard.

    66. Colin Dunn says:

      The archive link for the Scotsman article above doesn’t seem to point to the correct article. Error, or have they changed the URL to spike your story?

    67. muttley79 says:

      @Democracy Reborn

      Pretty sure Orwell said that omitting things is being just as biased as misrepresenting or framing news stories to suit your own agenda, which in the BBC’s case is the continuing maintenance/survival/existence of the British state. BBC Scotland do not want to cover these stories or even highlight them. They want people to think that being ruled by Westminster is great, and the way it should be for Scotland. They barely scrutinised anything the No campaign said or did during the referendum campaign, and hence now they will ignore it, or marginalise any news which contradicts what the No campaign said. BBC=British establishment.

    68. yesindyref2 says:

      In fairness to Ian Davidson, if he didn’t know about this before he does now, and I don’t think he’ll be very happy about it.

      Angus Roberston has made a point about it, my guess is that his anger will pale in the shadows compared to Davidson’s.

    69. snode1965 says:

      Hmm…this story reeks of sh*te! This could be a McTernan/ Labour/ British State setup to boost Labour UK before next May. I can see it now Murphy and Labour UK fight to secure contract and succeed. Remember this is in the Scotsman!

    70. Dr Ew says:

      @Donald

      I also clicked on the Scotsman screenshot and was taken to an article about the secret Westminster poll. Although the Article was dated 10th November the comments beneath all appeared to be from July. One of the top comments gave a link to a blog calling itself ‘Ah Dinnae Ken’ from, I think, August which was a long attack on Wings generally and the Rev personally, along with Dr Morag Kerr, accusing them of creating a threat to a No supporter.

      Just thought I’d mention it as I’m sure that wasn’t the intention of posting the screenshot of the article on job losses in Govan.

    71. John Walsh says:

      Sssssssssssssss! That’s the noise being let out of Jackie Baillie . Labour lies are now so exposed for the shite they are. But hey jimbo ie upbeat He-man( skeletor) will conquer all Scotland’s ills .

    72. yesindyref2 says:

      However, if the contract ended up being for FREMM, it’s near certain they would actually be built in the UK under licence, or at least a part of the contract, similar to the Typhooon, airframes from Italy, build near Lancaster.

      The problem is it wouldn’t probably be BAE, so that would mean presumably, not the projected frigate factory at Scotstoun or Govan.

      There’s a lot of miles to run on this one.

    73. @Colin Dunn

      The article’s on the front page of The Scotsman’s website and you can read it here.

      I think Rev Stu must just have accidentally put the wrong link into the archive.

    74. john king says:

      I just watched a Sainsbury’s advert which showed the “Christmas football game” on the front line in 1914,

      I found my eyes leaking,
      maybe I need a plumber.

    75. Does the unions who represent these shipyards and the workers have facebook and twitter pages.
      They need to be told and reminded what the Red Tories were saying before the referendum and now what has happened.

      What unions are in the shipyards? Gmb ?

    76. X_Sticks says:

      Sorry O/T

      Haven’t caught up with posts yet so someone else might have posted this already – no apologies 😀

      @liveIndyScot Broadcasting LIVE NOW from the Common Weal Glasgow Meet Up with Pat Kane & others @liveIndyScot Broadcasting LIVE NOW from the Common Weal Glasgow Meet Up with Pat Kane & others

      http://tinyurl.com/k8vq7ge

    77. muttley79 says:

      @James Caithness

      Not sure. There are billions of cuts coming, if No voters still think they made the right decision, then they will have to take one for the British state. Unfortunately we are all going to have to suffer now.

    78. muttley79 says:

      @X Sticks

      Somebody is going to have to PUMP UP THE VOLUME!

    79. Stoker says:

      It’s the panto season.

      OH NO IT ISN’T.

      OH YES IT IS.

      HE’S BEHIND YOU.

      WHO?

      SKELETOR McTERNAN, THAT’S WHO.

      OCH, THAT’LL BE WHY I SMELL SHITE, CHILDREN.
      🙂

    80. Jamie Arriere says:

      This is just a set-up to get a few sphincters twitching like a bunny’s nose.

      There will be a delay till about next March/April (Budget time?) when the contract will be awarded as a pre-election bribe to a grateful electorate/workforce, trying to puncture any premature pro-indy gloating.

      Don’t be fooled

    81. X_Sticks says:

      Sorry O/T

      Haven’t caught up with posts yet so someone else might have posted already…

      @liveIndyScot Broadcasting LIVE NOW from the Common Weal Glasgow Meet Up with Pat Kane & others http://tinyurl.com/k8vq7ge

    82. Claire McNab says:

      john king wrote:

      Ooh Miss Moneypenny,
      the boys will all be queuing up for your telephone number!
      Do you have a hatstand?

      They can hang their hats on the propeller blades of their new carry-the-kit-to-battle planes. Before being conscripted to go slug it out with ISIS

    83. cearc says:

      John King,

      They are really using WW1 to sell groceries?

      Next the British Legion will be getting sponsored by arms manufacturers… Ahh, ok, they already are.

      What a cess pool britain is becoming.

    84. X_Sticks says:

      Testing..testing

      Wings is becoming unusable with posts not appearing, duplicates etc..

    85. Gary says:

      Sorry if this has already been mentioned, didn’t see it anywhere though…

      But on that flyer Davidson said he “wasn’t threatening shipyards”. Wasn’t it him who was going around shouting about how he’d look for ways to break the existing contracts in the event of a Yes vote? A liar on several counts then, just in the context of shipbuilding alone.

    86. cearc says:

      Is the PPB on line anywhere-for non-telly watchers? Just had a quick and couldn’t find it.

    87. Murray McCallum says:

      The proverbial is out of the bag. No MOD-reliant skilled jobs anywhere in the UK are safe – all are potentially up for sale/redundancy.

      The vital decisions are being made outside of Scotland and this is what really matters. We could have had control over decision making. We gave it away.

      If OneNation Labour voters are appeased by another set of short term promises then we are screwed.

    88. AuldA says:

      @effijy:
      The French shipyard workers get paid a higher rate per hour, have better working conditions, and get better pensions.
      So is it BAE management who are greedy, is it the government that is greedy, or have the Elite money baron’s who control the Red and Blue Tories bought French shares on the cheap?

      That’s a possibility. No sooner than today the French treasury minister declared that, in order to abide by Brussels demands, the budget of several ministries would be further cut down. This includes Defence in the first place, so I expect the naval industry over here to strive, so to speak, to gain this contract, even at the expense of fairly high rebates.

    89. yesindyref2 says:

      snode1965 and Jamie Arriere
      There is not a snowflake’s chance in hell the Conservatives will be setting up Scotland to boost Labour’s chances in Scotland at the General Election, Scotland where the Tories have just one seat they’re likely to lose anyway.

    90. robertknight says:

      This is simply a bluff in order that the MoD can scew BAe Systems into agreeing to more favourable terms – at least on the face of it. (The tax payer will no doubt still get shafted by cost increases and over-runs).

      Davidson will still get his fat fizzer on the front page of the DR as soon as BAe roll over and sign the chit. (MoD – check the small print!)

    91. Valerie says:

      @Claire McNab, that all sounds a bit ominous 🙁

    92. Kirsty says:

      I don’t know if it’s been mentioned already but there’s a really amazing poll for the SNP in today’s Ipsos Mori UK-wide voting intentions poll. They’re showing in their own category (instead of “others” as they usually do) at 8%. That’s just 1% behind the Lib Dems and Scotland only have about 9% of the votes for the whole of the UK. That’s just, wow.

      Also, the BBC Trust are doing a consultation on the election guidelines for 2015. Might be worth putting in a submission about their exclusion of the SNP from the leader’s debates, which just seems less and less tenable given the polling results and the membership numbers.

      Here’s the link, if you want to put in a submission:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/have_your_say/election_guidelines

    93. Alistair says:

      Remarkably, the story about losing the MOD contracts was about the only better together story I thought was probably true. Oh well, live and learn.

    94. Macca73 says:

      I see M. Curran’s in this photo. Anyone want to let me know how her “tour” of all the areas in Glasgow is going since she “had to learn the lessons from the vote and speak to people”. With news like today perhaps she can go and speak to people down at the shipyards face to face!

    95. FairiefromEarth says:

      My prediction for next years election SNP win Scotland UKIP win many seats in england and the liebour and tory party have to form a coalition lol, that would be intreasting times.

    96. De Valera says:

      The UK Government reneging on a pre referendum pledge? Surely not? I suppose it was only a pledge and not a vow, they would never go back on that .

    97. Murray McCallum says:

      Here’s a short piece on what Ian Davidson MP said about break clauses in the frigates contract as well as Royal Navy ships not being built outside of the UK.

      http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/glasgow-mp-suggests-break-clause-in-warship-contract-141533n.22602982

      Maybe they forgot to take the break clause out?

    98. Lesley-Anne says:

      So it appears that we are about to lose our last shipyard on Clyde capable of building ships for the navy then. Thank you very much indeed everyone of you who are members of the 55% club. I just thank gawd I am an extremely proud member of the 45% club!

      I was really looking forward to seeing a future Scottish navy including ships like these or at the very least incorporating a lot of the features built into this prototype ship. Let’s face it folks there are not that many ships, civilian or military, that can maintain a speed in excess of 50 knots,that’s a tad under 60 m.p.h. for us folks who deal in REAL measurements. 😉

      http://tinyurl.com/ol4kt9f

      http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&tid=1200&ct=4

      I recently watched a programme about this ship, Building the X-Craft I think, and it only took TWO years to build and put into service. Not only that but it can also land on helicopters whilst doing 50 knots!

      There are so many options available to a future Scottish defence force for use on land, sea and in the air I just find it so frustrating that we are all stuck here completely helpless whilst the Three Amigo’s continue to rip Scotland apart at the seams.

      As if the utter destruction, apparently, of the Scottish shipyards on the Clyde is not enough we also have the continuation of the utter destruction of the Scottish fishing industry by Westminster.

      http://banffandbuchansnp.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/scottish-interests-frozen-out-of-vital.html

      Who the hell sends in an UNELECTED Lord to the fishing talks in Brussels when an experienced SCOTTISH minister is available. I very much doubt this *ahem* Lord would know one end of a fish from the other. Oh and it appears that 90% of the fishing carried out in British waters is done so by SCOTTISH boats. Go figure!

    99. No no no...Yes says:

      As Victor Meldrew would say, “I don’t believe it.”
      As Karen Dunbar would say, “I smell sh*te”

      The MSM and the Unionist Parties, as we all know to our cost, are capable of great deceit. There is something going on here, just wait and see….

    100. Stoker says:

      john king says:
      12 November, 2014 at 7:48 pm
      I just watched a Sainsbury’s advert which showed the “Christmas football game” on the front line in 1914,

      I found my eyes leaking, maybe I need a plumber.
      _______________

      And i’ve just been reading this, John.

      Major Labour Party donor in urgent need of its own transplant.
      https://archive.today/Fo6BD

      AYE, they warned us pesky jocks what would happen if we voted for Independence, didn’t they, eh.
      Looks like we should have voted No instead, eh.

      AYE, right enough, it would be all doom and gloom they said.
      Oh well!
      😉

    101. Steve B says:

      I’ve just a few random thoughts on this:

      I think that the Tories have done one on Labour from a great height. They don’t care about Scotland because they rightly know that politically there’s nothing here for them but also very wrongly think that Indy is off the agenda for a long time.

      Additionally, they also have no incentive to help Labour in Scotland – in fact perhaps the reverse – as they know a badly performing Scottish Labour will force Labour to divert scarce general election resources from English marginals to “safe” Scottish seats.

      As to BAE negotiations, it should be remembered that shipbuilding is only a fairly small part of the BAE empire – and I seem to remember that years ago when they took over shipyards they were strong-armed into it by the UK government. Therefore if they aren’t going to make much profit out of these ships then they could quite possibly walk away and leave the vast majority of their business intact.

      Additionally the French/Italian ships have the potential to be cheaper to the UK just because they have already been designed, etc so its more like the equivalent of buying something off the shelf rather than having something custom-designed and built.

      All the above though is of scant comfort to the affected workers. Under independence there would have been a plan in place to both build patrol ships for Scotland and to diversify away from the military into other more socially-useful areas. However until that happens, there’s a lot less that can be done within Scotland to help them – and any meaningful help from Westminster is very unlikely.

    102. Tam Jardine says:

      Imagine how the Govan and Scotstoun workers are feeling – once again their livelihoods are being casually threatened by this callous government.

      What they will have taken from the indyref is that Scotland can be successfully subdued by the media, westminster and big business working in concert. And now the threat has passed (for now) it’s back to business as usual. Fuck the Scottish people, they’re saying. WE are in charge.

      If only these bastards could use the same degree of cunning, cooperation and resolve to some worthwhile ends. Imagine if they put one tenth of their power and ingenuity into eliminating child poverty or improving health care, or winning commercial contracts to keep the Clyde, Rosyth and Portsmouth busy.

      It’s beyond them of course – everything worthwhile is if you’re only concern is your own salary, and the possibility of a seat in the Lords.

      A future indyref and the longterm viability of the union is far from the minds of those in power. I hope it does turn out to be a tactic, whether it be to drive down the price of the order or to give Murphy a boost.

      If they are intent on destroying Scottish shipbuilding it will be a boost for independence but the betrayal of those shipyard workers on the Clyde is too horrendous to even contemplate.

      Better Together? Is any phrase in Scottish history so loaded with poison?

    103. galamcennalath says:

      It’s enough to make you think it’s about time the whole YesScotland campaign (in the widest sense of all the various organisations) got itself back up to speed!

      I think Independence is needed, and will come soon. The more Scots who are persuaded to think the same way, the more likely that it will happen.

    104. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Macca 73 There,s nae Shipyards in Easterhouse fur Mags tae visit,oonyhows she needs permission fae Davidson to go into his constuancy,parliamentery rules old boy.

    105. Clootie says:

      Dr Ew says:
      12 November, 2014 at 7:28 pm

      I’m with Dr Ew

      A standard Labour tactic for years has been to dream up some claim – ” Your local Hospital/station/school will close under the SNP…they have a secret plan”

      When it doesn’t happen. Labour announce – “We saved XXXX from closure by putting pressure on the SNP”

      The Party that made SPIN an art form.

      This story will run until Murphy rides to the rescue!

    106. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Steve B

      You are right and maybe wrong.

      The Tories are playing silly buggers with Labour and somehow think Scotland is no longer important for their control of the UK, but vital for Labour’s existence.

      We all know that without the oil revenues the UK would be stuffed so, fracking or something equally as economically important is afoot.

      It would need to be a managed transition for today to the Tories’ tomorrow but, maybe, just maybe they see the open door?

    107. Jim Thomson says:

      As mentioned by @Kirsty at 8:21pm the Ipsos Mori poll is interesting. Scot Goes POP! covers the detail very nicely here:
      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/snp-soar-to-britain-wide-vote-of-8-in.html

    108. Lesley-Anne says:

      cearc says:

      Is the PPB on line anywhere-for non-telly watchers? Just had a quick and couldn’t find it.

      You might like to try this Cearc.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04nz5s5/party-political-broadcasts-scottish-national-party-12112014

      X_Sticks says:

      Testing..testing

      Wings is becoming unusable with posts not appearing, duplicates etc..

      You as well X-Sticks. I thought it was just me. I know I’ve asked Stu before about this and he suggested that it was my cache that needed cleared out. I’ve done that as much as I can figure out but it still takes time for my posts to appear, hence I don’t post that much these days.

    109. Grouse Beater says:

      The more Scotland looks towards a second referendum, the more Whitehall and Westminster will remove key structures and industries to diminish perception of sustainability in an independent Scotland and consequently weaken the will of the majority to vote for it.

    110. Edulis says:

      Sorry, if I am repeating what other posters have said, but wouldn’t it be a spiffing idea for a mass e-mail to a certain Ian Davidson asking him what he thinks of the Scotsman article.

      I am away to do mine.

    111. galamcennalath says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      “The more Scotland looks towards a second referendum, the more Whitehall and Westminster will remove key structures and industries”

      No time to waste then! ASAP

    112. David Agnew says:

      Its like 1978 all over again. Vote no to save jobs. You’re scared so you vote no, then you feel physically sick as you watch the jobs go anyways. Back in the 70’s labour wisely ran and hid under a rock and left the Tories holding the bag. Now the Tories have done it to labour. And a lot of people who voted no on the strength of the arguments; that only a NO vote could save them, realise they should have voted yes. Yes voters feel vindicated.

      Way back then, it was only the conservatives who got burned. This time it will be Labour “and” the Union who catch it in the neck.

    113. Kenny says:

      Re polls: Hope the SNP take a leaf out of Bonnie Prince Charlie’s book. First take Scotland — and then take the assault into north England. Only no stopping at York this time! It is incredible that SNP+PC could be the third largest party in the whole country.

      O/T Just watching the news in Germany, where I am at the moment. News about a policy announcement by the Greens. A report on Bulgarians and Romanians who have moved to Germany, showing how they are integrating, speaking the language, all with pic of nice baby. No UKIP, no Red or Blue Tories in sight…

      No, I am sorry, I will NEVER think we are better together with the disgusting cesspit that is the creation of the WM establishment, which turns its back on Europe and seems addicted to dropping bombs on the cradle of civilisation…

    114. HandandShrimp says:

      There is almost certainly some politicking going here. Osborne wants huge cuts in the 2015/20 Government…perhaps as much as £40b (it isn’t like we didn’t warn people). Each department has to come up with suggestions and the MoD may be firing a shot across Osborne’s bow with this one. Equally possible is that the Navy won’t get all 13 boats. They could be cut back to 10 which obviously is not great for the shipyards either.

      Of course they could be serious. There are a couple of very good new frigates already in service and BAE’s variant hasn’t hit the water yet.

    115. tombee says:

      There are some posters here suggesting a double bluff to allow Skeletor Murphy to make a last minute saving gambit thereby saving the North British Labour Branch from oblivion.

      Okay, it is impossible to deny that scenario, only a fool would discount that possibility, given the absolute scoundrels that are the Better Together mob.

      But should that be the case, what kind of sub human individual, who just happens to be am MP of Scottish origin, would resort to involving ‘itself’ in a conspiracy of that nature, in order to deceive other persons, who happen to be Scottish constituents of that MP, who may have voted for ‘it’ to represent them as their MP, only to be totally deceived by ‘it’.

      Well, having said that. Those of the North British Labour Branch Office. They would.

      Wouldn’t that deception out do the dastardly deed, imagined or otherwise, whereby Clyde ship yards were placed in jeopardy?.

      Phew!!, my head hurts.

    116. If they decide not to build in UK EU law requires major procurement contracts to be offered for open competition so they have to go through due process and can not just pick a shipyard without opening the contract out to the rest of Europe.

      http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/892/89205.htm

    117. gillie says:

      Even “considering” overseas shipyards for building navy ships holes unionists arguments under the water line. The workers on the Clyde don’t have any job security.

    118. The idea of moving the contract to France, or anywhere else for that matter, may have a degree of substance, but for what purpose?

      Perhaps it’s part of the coming GE information campaign and nothing more than that. It’s unlikely a decision will be made between now and the GE, but this type of information is likely to drive more voters away from Labour. The Tories have nothing to lose as their Westminster representation in Scotland barely lies on the range of natural numbers, but they will stick it even further to Labour if they can. I can see this debate getting more heated as the months go on, but if the Tories win some degree of victory, either outright or in another coalition (with whom?), the contract will go to the Clyde and the Tories will spout forth about how they are serious about looking after Scottish interests. Politically, what does anyone gain by finally destroying shipbuilding on the Clyde?

      BAE Systems has a very good frigate design and, given time, aims to capture a decent chunk of the global market, as previous generations of modular styled frigates come to the end of their service lives and the capability of the Type 26 should have been truly demonstrated by the Royal Navy by then. The article uses the word ‘dispute’, but is this not just another word for negotiations? I can’t imagine that negotiations between the MOD and the entire range of defence contractors has always been sweetness and light. There must have been some hard discussions at most stages of programme development across the gamut of defence procurement. Also, the article mentions that this is an MOD view and that the potential bad news has been broken to the press by the Chief of the Naval Staff (referred to as the head of the Royal Navy) and not by a politician such as Fallon himself. A departmental view broken to the press by a Serviceman, with central government at arms length – deliberate I think.

      Given a contract of this size and the political and social implications that sit on top of the military capability aspects, while the department that is Defence may hold a good hand in determining where the business may end up going, I think there is and always will be, a bigger picture here that is the business of central government. Who decided the Scout Vehicle was to be built in a not very well off, de-industrialised part of Wales? The MOD on its own?

      This is ugly politics, there is damage to be done, Labour in Scotland is the target and they will likely take a pounding from many sides.

      Then again, if this off the cuff analysis is wrong and this is primary evidence of westminster, post referendum, vindictiveness- bloody hell! Maybe the road ahead is not as long as we think, but that won’t help the Clyde in the short term.

    119. Tackety Beets says:

      I have watched politics since the late 60’s and have not seen much good come over the border from WM in all those years .
      Despite this I’m still shocked at this news , firstly as it is so soon after the BT save the jobs stuff , but also as I actually expected the yards to have work on a YES or a No .
      Plus as posted ” rUK can’t build on foreign yards , yet we know that’s already happening .
      We seriously need to find truthfull politicians , eh that are not SNP s
      When we on here all said a NO Vote would result in us being severely punished , I was not expecting it to be as bad as it is this soon .
      OT Airport/ passenger tax on news again and Carmichael in total denial saying ” you can’t spend the money twice ” FFS the point of removing it is to generate more Scottish business etc .
      The Unionist Parties are still in referendum mood , we are about to be whipped to a pulp !

      I wish I was a celebrity get me T F@@k outta here !

    120. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      @Mutley 79

      You are spot on ref: normality of economy.
      The official YES campaign should have been hammering this relentlessly and putting no on the back foot.

      1. UK has operated a trade deficit for 31 consecutive years.

      2. Consequently they have issued gilts to the tune of £2.5bn

      3. Scotland would have a trade surplus (£100bn of exports)

    121. Graeme Doig says:

      Tam Jardine 8.48

      Have to agree with all the points you make. Politics seems to be just a game to all these unionist bastards.

      Not seeing how this could be an opportunity for smurph et al to come to the rescue but either way it looks like the blue tory’s could capitalise.

      Looks like a lot of damage could be done to Scotland before enough folk wake up.

      They may have been right about us being too stupid.

    122. david anderson says:

      Think Royal Navy dude is putting it out there to force the hand of Government and BAE. Say it is a possibility that orders may go abroad then sit back and watch as the denials happen and the deal gets hurried up. Just as someone else mentioned probably just in time for the elections.

    123. bowanarrow says:

      I just watched a Sainsbury’s advert which showed the “Christmas football game” on the front line in 1914. You should do should do a little investigation about that wonderful day on the western front, most of the men were summarily charged, executed for fraternizing with the enemy.

    124. ronnie anderson says:

      Both the Slab & Westminster Lab MPs & the Westminster Gov have been holed way below the Plimsole Line,its just a matter of time & the Time is the May elections 2015,so lets get orginized in all areas/regions.

    125. SquareHaggis says:

      O/T soz.

      Can anyone confirm from the following link

      http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/11/more-establishment-hypocrisy/#comment-491412

      Thanks to BrianFujisan for the info.

    126. Ian Brotherhood says:

      What will it take for duped No-voting workers to wake up?

    127. Croompenstein says:

      OT Email from Generation Yes..

      Friend —
      Generation Yes may have been a little quiet recently, but don’t worry, we’re not going away! In fact, it’s the exact opposite.

      The level of engagement of young people during the referendum blew our socks off and we want to ensure this carries on. We are establishing ourselves as a not-for-profit organisation, aiming to engage, educate and encourage young people to participate in an active democracy in Scotland. We have already appointed a board and staff who will make it their full time job to deliver the aims of Generation Yes.

      Generation Yes became the largest grassroots youth movement that Scotland has ever seen and that was all down to YOU! It is crucial to the future of Generation Yes that you have the utmost input into our activities and it is because of that we are asking you to decide on the new name for Generation Yes, please click here to have your say! This survey will close on Thursday 13th of November and we will let you know the results next Monday.

      It is so important for Generation Yes to look forward and keep the momentum of the referendum going, while we recognise that we did not get the result we were looking for 1.6 million people voted for change and that is enough reason for us to continue to push for the change we thought independence would deliver.

      It is so important to us that we are accessible to you and so we have made it really easy to get in touch. If you have any questions about Generation Yes please do not hesitate to email us at contact [at] generationyes [dot] org or you can call us directly on 07478512520.

      We look forward to hearing from you.

      Generation Yes

      The link to survey is…

      http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/5VS7PGT

    128. Croompenstein says:

      @cearc –

      They are really using WW1 to sell groceries?

      http://tinyurl.com/nouy363

    129. No no no...Yes says:

      O/T but another example of SLAB following their imperial masters in voting to continue the attacks on Scotland’s disabled:

      http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/nov/labour-votes-continue-welfare-cuts-disabled

      They really have lost it.

    130. Bob Mack says:

      I will wait and see but if true then at least the votes of the 11,000 workers and their families will be for the right party next time. What a harsh lesson ,but sometimes this is what it takes. I do not believe this is for Murphys benefit. Remember that Westminster has to agree to another referendum. Nicola was talking about that today. They will not as they see no immediate threat from the S.N.P that they could not deal with. This move sinks Labour completely (sorry about that!) north of the border. U.K.I.P. are the main threat to a Tory victory by denying them possibly up to 40 seats , as the Rochester election will demonstrate. How better to mitigate for that event ,than to reduce the chances of the main beneficiary i.e. Labour, by 50 seats here in Scotland.

    131. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Short STV piece about the 40th anniversary of the UCS ‘work-in’. Get yer hankies oot…

      (P.S. It’s only had 341 views.)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDcJ_FJzI7I

    132. David Lyon says:

      “This is on YOU, No voters.”

      Lose this negative tone please. Many of us are trying to maintain positivity and optimism for the months and years ahead before another referendum happens.

      No voters who were lied to are not stupid. The critical 9% will realise that they have been had. They do not need you blaming and insulting them.

      They may well be on our side next time so long as you don’t manage to alienate them.

    133. Dr Jim says:

      Maybe this is the deal done by Osborne with the EU over his Wonga loan to avoid paying up front the entire amount

    134. North chiel says:

      Obviously plans are now being drawn up as regards the EBC/ MSM
      Strategy for GE 2015. Be assured that “the Jackie Burd” show
      Will again feature prominently with an anti Scottish gov./pro SLAB
      Stance.i already suspect that “local government cuts” ( as to be propagated by them) , with education mentioned repeatedly will be a central theme .of course SLAB
      Policy for increasing the council tax will be spun as to be “normalised”
      And they will relentlessly back this position as normal and acceptable
      The target will be to reduce the SNP poll lead in the run up to. GE 2015
      Make no mistake a Pacific Quay will back SLAB to the hilt during the
      Campaign
      As I have said before Edinburgh control of Broadcasting and the
      Media is absolutely vital and should be top of the list of further
      Devolution , ahead of anything else , it should be included prominently
      In the SNP manifesto
      Otherwise the daily dose of “brainwashing” continues unchallenged
      In the “traditional” media

    135. Stoker says:

      The bottom line is, our shipyards should NOT be in this position.

      Those who voted ‘No’ gave the Unionists the power to do this.

      However, you ‘No’ voters have the power to make amends.

      Simply vote SNP in May 2015 and help send THE biggest ever
      delegation of SNP politicians to London and wipeout the filthy
      LibLab ("Tractor" - Ed)s at the same time.

      You know it makes sense – the power rests in your hands.

      Time to sink or swim gullibles – swallow and Scotland drowns.

    136. @bowanarrow
      During WW1 the British Empire shot 306 of their own men.
      The Germans shot 18 of their own men.

    137. Lollysmum says:

      PIP (Personal Independence Payment) implementation has been apalling in England. My organisation has clients who have been waiting for PIP assessment for more than 8 months having been told their Disability Living Allowance has been terminated.

      You all talk about poverty being bad in Glasgow but you need to see inner London. It makes me weep to see the state of some forced to live on the streets now particularly in the East End.

      A few weeks ago, Police were trying to arrest a beggar with no legs outside the Stepney Green Tube station & passers by kicked up a massive fuss till they backed off & left him alone. We all crowded around the 2 police officers, giving them hell whilst others helped the guy to disappear in his wheelchair.

      I’m afraid that we are all, south or north of the border, paying the price in 2014 for a disgusting, profligate, deceitful government we did not vote for.

      And not all English are bad. I know most of you from the blogs & Wings but to be honest, we English are always been told about the Scots being full of hatred. I lived in Scotland in the 70’s so I knew it to be lies but there are millions of English people who don’t know anything about the Scots to be able to decide for themselves whether we are being lied to or not. News media & BBC as usual-creating & constant reinforcement of stereotypes results in people believing what they are being told. It isn’t just Scotland under attack from government -it’s every one of us who are not part of the top 1%

    138. BrianW says:

      The Scotsman’s surly mistaken.

      The BBC had Mr Carmichael saying “”Our position is clear. The UK builds its warships within the UK, and always has done.”

      An lets face it. Neither the BBC nor Mr Carmichael would be likely to mislead folk.

      Wonder how this story will pan out?

      Who can possibly spin the story of loosing thousands of jobs and an Industry as being to Scotland’s Benefit of remaining in the UK.. I wonder.. Anyone..

    139. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: What will it take for duped No-voting workers to wake up?

      My post asking a similar question disappeared – by all accounts the workers in the yards voted overwhelmingly No. Difficult to have any sympathy for them were it not for the fact the loss of orders – any orders – damages all of Scotland’s prosperity.

      We have become an unimaginative, arid people from our old selves if we can’t attract or create a different kind of ship building and make it work – in an independent nation.

      Still, while we are under Westminster rule let it take the consequences of its actions.

    140. davidb says:

      The orders have not been placed for any of these ships. A report in the Hootsman raises doubts about them being Clyde built. I did read something recently but cannot remember where about the possibility of an Italian and/or French built ship being looked at. But that the idea was regarded as a non starter. So until an order is placed there is no point everyone here getting worked up about it. The MOD is probably just playing games to help in the price negotiations.

      And 13 ships? The US has 10 aircraft carriers and 3 under construction. Aye Britannia rules the waves.

    141. Kirsty says:

      Lollysmum,

      Yep, there’s poverty everywhere. There’s a 43% child poverty rate in the constituency where I live. It’s hard to even imagine that. Not nice times to live in, but then I’m not sure if there were ever really any nice times to live in if you weren’t one of the “establishment”. It seems like the few have been crapping on the many since time immemorial.

      BTW, if you know the anti-Scottish rhetoric; “They hate us English” to be lies, as it is, then please do tell your compatriots. I’m always amazed at how quickly English people will come on to any Scottish site, including this one, and tell us off for being “racist” for even mentioning the word English – it’s almost like GCHQ have Google alerts – when, in fact, “English” is often the right word to use in our context and is not meant in a racist way at all. On the other hand, if you go to any English/UK newspaper online and look at the comments whenever the word Scotland is mentioned in an article, you will see some of the foulest, vilest, racist abuse of Scots both from the writers/columnists and from the BTL comments that you could imagine. I’m yet to see an English person telling those people to stop being racist and behave themselves. Any Scots who complain about that abuse are told to stop being so chippy, “get a sense of humour” and then there will invariably be a comment about “If you want to annoy a Scotsman, call him Scotch. Ha, ha, ha.” Perhaps you could make a start and dive into the depths of the Daily Mail, Guardian, etc. comments and tell your compatriots that they’re being fed lies and that their xenophobia is embarrassing.

    142. Kirsty says:

      Davidb,

      Perhaps you’re right but I think we should get worked up about it given that Scots were told so vociferously that only a no vote would save the dockyards. The fact that they’re playing silly buggers and even threatening this now is just stinking and is a kick in the stones.

    143. wannabescot says:

      What is truly maddening is, you knew this was coming, no matter how much you tried to warn NO voters about it they shut their ears, the NO voters swallowed everything Westminster spouted. So gullible and not a damn thing you can do about it.

    144. Guillaume says:

      just be cautious, while it’s probably right these folk who have bled dry the remembrance ceremonies over the past weeks for their own jingoistic perversity always pull a flanker just prior to the SNP conference just to take some of the media coverage. I agree some pain required for the NO’s however unfortunately the 45% will suffer too. We scots seem to be keen on self harming and this just adds to the pain. However there is a light ahead and we must get ready for May 2015 and blow them all out of the water completely.

    145. ChrisB says:

      This is how Sky News was pushing the “vote-No-to-preserve-shipbuilding-on-the-Clyde” angle a few days before the referendum:
      http://news.sky.com/story/1336115/no-scottish-divide-in-shipyards-of-the-clyde

    146. Bob Mack says:

      Guy on tv made a very valid point tonight .Feels that other parties might not necessarily want to win an election this time given the austerity that we know is yet to come. I am thinking of recent Labour decree on disability benefits etc .May be an attempt to accept S.N.P. into power when no one could possibly balance the books without penalising the public. I would not put it past these swine to think that way. This would be their ” in” back to favour with the Scottish public. Except that is for the more sensible people in Scotland.

    147. Dr Jim says:

      So lets raise a cheer for the three shop stewards..Getting a hangover now are we? Or am i taking too much of a risk saying it.
      If i’m stupid enough to make a fool of myself i’ll apologise, but these three did it on National TV, care to say sorry to the Scottish people on national TV for allowing yourselves the luxury of selfish vanity for your 30 pieces you’re likely now not going to get, or your children unless our own Scottish Guv can now rescue the situation like The First Minister did with Fergusons, and maybe, just maybe, you’ll listen next time…

    148. Dr Jim says:

      @David Lyon
      I’m sure you mean well, but, trying not to upset an idiot is almost as bad as encouragement, it’s coming to the time when these people have to see a bit of common sense and maybe a little bit of SORRY FOLKS would’nt go amiss.
      During the referendum we were mocked by these same people,so a bit of humble pie thanks and then we move on
      Little bit annoyed
      Too much?….

    149. Barontorc says:

      C’mon people, we’ve suffered very badly in this referendum from the surrounding debacle/circus, because ‘we’ – YES and NO alike, listened to the absolute political pi** coming from the BBC, STV, Scotsman, Herald, Daily Record, etc., and this is just another case of the local fire master setting his own fires and then being first on the spot to put them out and save the town.

      For goodness sake, grow-up and smell the coffee.

      The shipyards were doomed the minute all the ‘proud Scots..but’ put their ‘X’ the wrong way. And that’s the way many other things are going to go from now on in.

      “VOW? – What VOW did you think you read?- Oh, you’re, very mistaken my silly wee deluded friend, you’ve got it terrrrribly wrong”, etc., etc.

      So these shipyard orders will suddenly be given to Govan – and it’s all shining bright again – ‘Vote your local champion Labour man! See what he’s overcome to keep you in a job’.

    150. Macart says:

      They can still make a better choice. The electorate will get a second chance sooner rather than later to right a wrong.

      Not many get a second chance in life and it can start in May. If you voted no, face facts, they lied. They lied about this and so much more. Then having secured your vote, they deserted you. How many more examples will you require?

      If you want to right these wrongs start in May. Send down a strong pro indy contingent of MPs to Westminster. They’ll hold the bastards feet to the fire over their pledges and provide a buffer against the worst the three tory parties will be chucking our way. Then we work on indyref2, we get shot of these treacherous backstabbers and we work on putting Scotland back to work with all our powers and resources to hand, not just the chump change.

      Just think though, we could already have been two months down the road to making this happen. We get this second opportunity? Well, we can’t afford to get it wrong again and let’s leave it at that.

    151. ian foulds says:

      If the Daily Record advertised The Vow, could we crowdfund the Sunday Herald to post an advert listing and entitled The Broken Vows Since 18/9/14?

      This might help the PSBs (Proud Scot But) understand the consequences of their action.

    152. ian foulds says:

      If the Daily Record advertised The Vow, could we crowd-fund the Sunday Herald to post an advert listing and entitled The Broken Vows Since 18/9/14?

      This might help the PSBs (Proud Scot But) understand the consequences of their action.

    153. jimpy macdonald says:

      another shambles but heyho you did vote no
      well sticky fingers to !
      disgrace to scotland hail hail to dundee and glesga though
      they can walk proud

    154. Taranaich says:

      Lose this negative tone please. Many of us are trying to maintain positivity and optimism for the months and years ahead before another referendum happens.

      No voters who were lied to are not stupid. The critical 9% will realise that they have been had. They do not need you blaming and insulting them.

      They may well be on our side next time so long as you don’t manage to alienate them.

      Do you really think the No voters who’ve realised they’ve been had will just vote No next time because they don’t like Yes voters’ tone? That being blamed and “insulted” is worse than being deceived and manipulated?

      Positivity and optimism are vital and essential, but they have to be tempered with reality, as a matter of offering contrast. The reality is this IS on No voters, and the first step on the road to rehabilitation is to realise you have done wrong. We cannot blame this entirely on the media, the establishment, or whatever outside entity lied to them: every human being is responsible for their vote. They alone. It was their responsibility to make sure their vote counted. It was their responsibility to research, to explore, to understand what their vote meant. Not the BBC, not the government, not even their friends and family – theirs, and theirs alone.

      To suggest otherwise, that they were poor fools who were lied to, is just letting them shirk their responsibility as living, thinking, reasoning human beings. When I was out canvassing, I always made sure to say one thing: your vote is your responsibility. It is up to you to make the choice – let nobody, but nobody, decide your vote, but yourself.

      Make no mistake: I hold the UK establishment hydra that is the government, the media, and business to be the key monster in this debate. But it serves no-one to pretend that the reason 2 million people voted yes is because those 2 million placed their cross in the box that said No.

      You might call it blaming and insulting: I call it tough love.

    155. Jessie McYessie says:

      Someone in the know said he wouldnt step foot on any ship built abroad as the welding is so shite! They will reap what they sow.

    156. Colin Church says:

      @Ian Brotherhood
      Great piece on UCS, deserves more views.
      Jimmy Reid head and shoulders above the current sold out union stewards and new labourites that currently lead sheep. I am sure there was “we’ll see you right” pledges from the big boys at WM (including Davidson) who ultimately have no power in current set up. Pawns and useful idiots in a Tory controlled game.

    157. chalks says:

      As others have said regarding No voters.

      Please point out the lies of the No campaign and the various political parties attached, do not slag off no voters for being duped.

      How many ex-labour voters are now in the SNP?

    158. scunnered says:

      the no voters were not duped im not buying that..a lot of people put a lot of time and effort into telling them they were being lied to (wee blue book) they trusted English mps who had a track record of lying to us rather than trust there own people

    159. scunnered says:

      these are the sort of things that used to frustrate the hell out of me…it is so good to know that there is somebody spelling it out and exposing there lies
      thanks stu

    160. Stoker says:

      @ Taranaich @ 5.50am

      Well said.

      Couldn’t have put it better myself.

      Reality dictates we are all held accountable for our actions.

      And to those ‘No’ voters out there i will say this –
      I give you my word that i will never patronise or insult you
      by suggesting that i am intellectually superior to you and therefore
      beyond being fooled by anyone.

      However, i will hold you responsible for your actions, especially
      when those actions contribute to destroying the health and wealth
      of any part of Scotland or her people.

      Twenty, Thirty or more years ago you may have gotten away with
      ignorance as an excuse, but not anymore. Everything you need to
      know is at the touch of a button. We are privy to a wealth of
      information and knowledge these days which would have been
      unthinkable way back then.

      Ignorance is no excuse, continue to shite on my countries future
      well-being and you can expect both barrels from me.

      As for the ‘No’ supporting media, politicians and campaigners, well,
      it’s open season on them 24/7 – no special permit required.

    161. chalks says:

      @scunnered

      They were duped, lots of people who never vote in elections, voted in the referendum, they, for the 1st time in their lives, looked at both arguments and were veering towards yes but went no based on all the fears and then with the vow.

      They were duped, but it’s all about enlightened them and showing them, with evidence, that they were duped.

      Insulting them won’t get you anywhere.

    162. scunnered says:

      @chalks
      im not insulting anybody…and youre right they went with the vow so they trusted English mps in Westminster before trusting there own people…and a great majority of the no voters were not voting for the 1st time

    163. Jim McIntosh says:

      @chalks

      “do not slag off NO voters for being duped”

      You’re wrong. No one was duped, they didn’t pay attention to the arguments or were being duplicitous. I had many heated debates with various freinds over the scaremongering.

      Politely saying “Well you’ve made a mistake, but it’s only because you were lied to, and it’s not really your fault, so don’t worry, I’m sure you’ll make a different decision next time” doesn’t cut it.

      No one needed an excuse to vote NO. If they weren’t sure they could have abstained. The argument “I’m Scottish but what about….” Doesn’t hold water. Lots used these lies, knowing they were lies as a justification to vote NO, but still allowing them to remain ‘proud scots’.

      I’ve every intention of reminding my NO voting freinds/colleagues of what they’ve done. My feeling is most of the ones who get angry and complain they were lied to will vote NO next time, they’ll just find another reason. The ones who say, “Yea you were right I was stupid” will vote YES.

      I’m confident most will fall into the second category.

    164. YESGUY says:

      I read that and guess what??

      Not a drop of sympathy. None whatsoever . These workers were warned time and time again and still voted NO.

      They are responsible for the loss in the ref. So fuck them and welcome to the dole like thousands of others. Selfish greedy sods the lot.

      Why should we feel sorry for the “Poor shipyard workers” they made a choice and now will pay the price.

      And we should let NO voters know what they done. Forgive and forget ?? They sold their countries freedom because of selfish self interest. I feel pretty angry that the poor and disabled will suffer MUCH more than those workers ever will . It will get the odd paragraph now and then but oh didums the shipworkers might lose their jobs. TOUGH and you reap what you sow.

      How many politicians will be lining up to condemn the cuts to the disabled eh ?

      They have my sympathy .

      the shipyard workers can fuck themselves.

    165. chalks says:

      I’m not wrong, I’ve had conversations with people as well funnily enough, that voted no, that aren’t politically experienced and are shocked by the vow and what has happened.

      I didn’t insult them, nor do I feel the need to be a complete smart arse or dick, by pointing out every single thing that is transpiring. Why would you?

      You don’t endear yourself by being a patronising told you so type.

      They trusted people who are leaders of parties, they also trusted Gordon Brown and the main stream media. As Alex Salmond has said, the presentation was very good.

      This only works once though, they had peoples trust, the new voters, they don’t anymore. You don’t go round insulting people who are now more than ever leaning to your side.

      We didn’t insult them before they made their decision and we shouldn’t do it now, as like it or not, we need their support in May and in the future.

      Pointing out things and insulting them are two entirely different things.

    166. chalks says:

      @YESGUY

      So all the shipyward workers voted No did they?

      The fact is, you can all be children and throw your toys out of the pram, but at the end of the day, being a vindictive patronising told you so, will not get us anywhere.

      In fact, it’s verging into Scottish Labour territory.

      The only way we’ll acheive our goal is by moving on and engaging them, not by pointing out things and being arseholes about it as alot of them just weren’t enlightened about things.

      Indy started off at 30% and grew to 45+, that didn’t happen by being arseholes.

    167. scunnered says:

      @chalks
      if you think people are smart arses or dicks for pointing out what is transpiring maybe your in the wrong place

    168. YESGUY says:

      Chalks

      The shipyards ARE Labour territory

      And if i am an arse hole fine. They sold my country to the English .

      We are a region now and no amount of soft talk will make any difference. I stand on what i said – Fuck them. They need to know that their choices effect all of us.

      Check the sanction parents who cannot feed their kids. Check the disabled being hounded and treated as scroungers.

      You be nice and sympathetic to the poor workers .

      Good for you . I still think they are a self serving greedy bunch of “i’m all right Jacks”

      Wait till they try and claim benefits.

      PS these “workers” bood Alex salmond at the launch of the carrier remember.

      Fucking ("Tractor" - Ed)s.

    169. Jim McIntosh says:

      What YESGUY said 🙂

    170. chalks says:

      Pointing out something and being a patronising arsehole are different things

    171. ticktock says:

      What YESGUY said, all the way.

      My contempt for No voters runs too deep for me to try and personally open their tiny little minds, I’d probably lose it and end up doing something I might regret, not in terms of any harm I might do them but only because of the legal consequences for me.

      What is desperately needed is a new Scottish TV channel and a free newspaper to do the educating for us, bearing in mind that apparently OFCOM is considering banning RT from DisUK airwaves, in the name of free speech and democracy of course.

    172. tombee says:

      Whatever would Nelson have made of resorting to France to equip the Royal Navy with ships. Where is the sense of Trafalgar spirit in this First Sea Lord?.

      AYE AYE Your Lordship, you’ve certainly got your ‘glass’ to your blind eye with this suggestion.

    173. Dave MacLeod says:

      The news about the MoD speaks well enough for itself, as will many others in the coming months and years. Unfortunately, the temptation to vent frustration on No voters only serves to negate the potential good that could come out of the short term negative consequences of the no vote.

      Telling people they are stupid repeatedly is exactly what we all hated in the No campaign during the referendum. If we want any good to come of it, and it can, the message is surely this:

      Let’s not vote for this next time.

      First, this message unites the ‘us’ who have to bear the consequences of the UK government’s decision making. Second, it focuses the frustration on it’s source. Finally, it presents the solution, which is another chance to decide when the right time comes. In my mind, this blog serves a great purpose by simply presenting the facts, as they are, and gently reminding people that there is no reason why we cannot vote again once the full consequences are played out. How crap would it be if we get another shot at this, and the result is the same because frustration has resulted in division and entrenchment.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top