Ask again later
Posted on
September 12, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Here’s Atul Hatwal, editor of the influential Labour website Labour Uncut, speaking first in July and then reviewing his position with the benefit of hindsight in August.
Corbyn just won the leadership election in the first round with 60% of the vote. Don’t give up the day job, Atul. Well, actually, maybe you should.
Meanwhile in Scotland, spots are still No.1 in leopard fashion.
The actual number of votes cast in the election was 422,664. 1% of the UK population would be 645,968. So Murray and McDougall have exaggerated the reality by a mere 54%. By their standards that’s actually quite restrained.
We expect Blair just didn’t have enough characters for the quotemarks around “fact”.
a close friend of McTernan?
I’m sure Atul Hatwal is an anagram of John McTernan.
Incredible result for Corbyn, which makes life awkward for Killjoy Kez. Mega backtracking expected in next few days.
Scots need to remember that Corbyn is a Unionist, so it must be SNP for both votes at Holyrood next year.
A clear attempt to form opinion rather than reflect it I think.
There is a career awaiting at the BBC for him
Love it that labour are now led by Tom and Jerry ????
Congratulations Jeremy, don’t take up Hillwalking , you might have a hearty!
Hahaha
Just another case of someone living inside the Labour bubble trying to tell voters how it should be rather than listening to what they actually want
Let’s see how this unfolds.
Will the previously hostile Dugdale and Murray now sook up to Jeremy?
Will Jeremy have the courage to suggest someone from the SNP should be Shadow Scottish Secretary?
There cannot now be one Labour party. It will have to split. Tory lite and socialism will not mix. What will now follow should be very interesting indeed.
Dearie me : Hardly ecstatic response for new leader as per BBC propaganda.
BBC making a few mistakes during filming of Labour leader rally –
showing crowd with clearly only 1/2 of audience clapping new leaders words.
BBC now going on with mantra of rock solid mandate for change but avoiding clear split questions as blairites abandon shadow cabinet via resignations.
SNP will be clearly panic stricken 🙂
Atul Hatwel eats hat, or should do…
Although I was heartened by Corbyn’s election as Labour Leader, not least because it gives our political elite a kicking. This could be bad news for the independence movement if Labour are elected in 2020.
Corbyn sounds like Sturgeon & now labour will sound like the SNP. (with one big difference) Dugdale will use her SNP bad for all it’s worth thinking she is now leader of the branch with even more left wing credentials than the SNP. I for one won’t be returning to labour.
In Scotland, they’ve lied too much to me, they’ve shared platform with very dubious organisations and after reading old posts on this site yesterday re Natalie McGarry’s pleading with bt to put up a spokesperson for debates during the refurendum campaign was really quite condesending, glib & smug.
Labour may be changing down south but it’ll be business as usual from them here in Holyrood.
Labour leadership contest Corbyn won . We,re aw Luvvies Noo.Gie,s ah job.
Unless Corbyn visits the bloodbank to get new blood,its the same old blood gene.
Rejoice! (to quote a former Tory). But what about round 2?
This is the Labour Party remember and there will be panic in the streets.
Breaking … Labour party members want to be in a Labour Party
Who would have thunk it?
Newsflash!
Teddy Bear found ten feet from Blairite pram. More to follow…
Watch folks, as our Scottish branch red tories switch from hostile opposition to JC to unrestrained arse-licking mode in record speed.
If you blink, you’ll miss it. 🙂
The Tories have just found themselves the best spokesperson for the Party ever
Every Tory in England delighted at the nomination
It’ll all be complete when Jeremy marches at the head of the first series of strikes by the Unions with his “Che” badge on his beret surrounded by young girls handing out flowers chanting “Peace” to the sounds of Pink Floyd and Hendrix
Love is in the air
The age of Stupidity has arrived
Kezia Dugdale looked absolutely stunned at the result! D:
Aw this should be good.
So looking forward to Kezia’s response. 😀
Q in maths class :
“Sir, Sir, When does 422,000 become nearly 1/2 a million votes sir ?”
“When the BBC and Labour are in cahoots laddie”
(BBC & Labour at again conflating truth and gubbage re figures)
SDP anyone ? Anyone?
New Labour 2
Social Democratic Labour Party ? (Doh !)
No problem for Kezia then as Disreporting Jackie will be telling us that us all that she really does want to make little Corbies with Jeremy and that she supported him all along.
I wonder how long it will take the beady eyed Murray to offer his political gymnastic services and show what a loyal little Corbie he is as well and always supported him.
I expect that Disreporting Jackie will give air time to the Dug and Murray to show what sycophantic Corbies they are and to tell us that SNP are bad.
A measure of just how mad the world has become is the fact that when a letf wing socialist becomes the UK Labour leader its met by shock and horror…
Or perhaps its just a sign of how right wing the media and establishment are.
Still cant shake the niggling suspicion that its a Westminster designed ploy to undermine the SNP tho…
Maybe a job opportunity for a milliner around Westminster with all the hat eating that is going on. How long do we think it will take for sheriff Dug to be smacked back down to deputy Dug?
Will Corbyn’s victory mean the end for people like McTernan, McDougall? What about the more reactionary elements in Holyrood and their so called advisers.
People like Ian Smart, Michael Kelly and labour party columnists with pro militarisation views. Will Dugdale defy Corbyn on Trident renewal?
There will be a huge labour love-in for a month or two but Scottish labour won’t be able to abandon its long held hating of the SNP,the machine politics, careerism and self serving smugness like they’ve shown here in both victory and defeat.
Jeremy Corbyn eh.Who’d a thunk it.
Jeremy gave a shout out to Kezia in his victory speech.
Last week on Radio 4 she was asked who she might prefer as leader. The non – committal response she gave shows how she waits for head office to steer the ship.
It’s going to be interesting to hear how she discovers these new reconnecting values that were being dismissed by senior figures last week.
‘Sending us into oblivion’ or the new Unity?
Jeremy has to thank Alex And Nicola for this shake up.
The pressure is going to be on him to drift to middle ground.
Labour supporters watched SNP kick ass and said to themselves ‘we want a bit of that’.
Labours new makeover should not eclipse the efforts of those who have Scotland’s best interests at heart.
Oh and for those poor souls who seriously think Corbyn will ever be Brit PM – take your medication FFS.
How now Red tory SLabour/BBC Scotland going to contend with Jezza? Vote SLabour, fresh, new, exciting red tory Bettertogether Kezia for even bigger Trident nuke bombs, even bigger UKOK student fees, pool and share ukok…
Blame Alex Salmond.
First Minister’s response to Corbyn result:-
She congratulated Jeremy Corbyn on his victory and said she wants “to work constructively with him in a progressive alliance against Tory austerity”.
But she has added:
“The reality today is that at a time when the country needs strong opposition to the Tories,Jeremy Corbyn leads a deeply, and very bitterly, divided party.
Indeed, if Labour cannot quickly demonstrate that they have a credible chance of winning the next UK general election, many more people in Scotland are likely to conclude that independence is the only alternative to continued Tory government.” 🙂
‘Things can – and they will – change’ says JC. Methinks they already have!
Bet Kez is regretting that ‘carping from the sidelines’ comment!
Oh how quickly we tend to deceive, but that U.K. politics to deceive, it took less than 30 seconds for the “Labour” party to start to disintegrate and 35 seconds to start and manipulate the figures. As for the BEEB they will be busy trying to wipe the tapes but as we all know once it is out on the web it will be cached somewhere and not be removed.
They still have a lot to learn about this internet and how it works. Get the drinks in and settle down for a lot of gnashing of teeth and crocodile tears in the next 48 hours before 11 am on Monday in Westminster.
Corbyn’s popularity relative to citizens/residents of Britain
UK Population = 0.39%
UK Electorate (Estimated) = 0.54%
UK Voters (2015) = 0.82%
Labour Voters (2015) = 2.69%
Labour 2015 Membership (Claimed) = 59.5%
Maybe he hasn’t got the country by the balls quite yet readers, eh?
Will it come as a surprise to anybody that at 7.00.23am, The Labour Uncut website put up an article about what the rules say on removing a leader?
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/
Well …’congratulations’ to Jeremy Corbyn in his victory. It’s a move in the right direction for Labour, but overall, for us Nationalists in Scotland, it probably means not a lot. The guy isn’t going to advocate independence for Scotland, and I’ll not bother holding out for any sort of ‘Federalism’ for the entire UK from the guy.
However …I will be watching with great interest from the sidelines as Labour begins tearing itself apart. No doubt the Blairites as well as major business will throw the dummy, toys, hissy fits, et al from the pram.
I wonder what way Kezia and co will jump should civil war loom in the Labour Party. Should be a toughy since both Blairites and Corbynites will be running the show from London anyway.
Poor Kezia …what is one to do????
At least Murray said he backed Cooper. Kezia’s fence sitting was so painful to watch that I felt like the palings were jabbing my arse not hers.
I am sure Corbyn is well aware that Kezia was not a Corbynite and fle her under S for Sleekit. 🙂
euan mccolm retweeted
Nicola Sturgeon ?@NicolaSturgeon 25 mins25 minutes ago
Hope Corbyn will give early and cast iron commitment that Labour MPs will join @theSNP in voting against Trident renewal.
euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 59 mins59 minutes ago
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 1 hr1 hour ago
You people have gone fucking mad
So that’s blue toryboy Scottish press reaction, pro’s to the last.
Listened to Labour leadership vote on Propaganda Radio 5-Lie & Thrive. John Peniser is busy persuading current shadow members that they really need to resign from their post due to the catastrophic result that sees Corbyn as party leader.
You can’t beat impartial investigative journalism, so they just don’t try it!
Tip to Liz Kendal- don’t play poker! How she struggled before the public announcement not to let her face show that not even 1 in 20 Labour voters thought enough of her to lend her their vote.
Did her overblown ego prevent her for recognising this as she spoke to her party supporters.
Yvette Cooper’s face was “Oh Shit” is this guy old enough to have a bad memory on how I lambasted him as a credible candidate.
Andy Burnham- Just let me do anything you like, whoever you are, what ever your policies, just give me a seat on your gravy train.
Should B****ards like Blair, Brown, Kinnock, all millionaire
labour leader leaches read this, please recognise that your Neo-Liberal Right Wing New Labour party has been totally rejected by
the real Labour party members.
You all gave it your best shot at demonising the duely elected party leader, so I suggest you keep your mouths shut in future, as no one believes a word you say, or gives your policies any credibility.
For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
than a rich man enter the kingdom of Fife-sorry Heaven,
I suggest you all start take the hump wearing your camel hair coats.
Jezza said this morning, “…my support to Kezia Dugdale, the leader of Labour in Scotland“. Does that mean HQ will be issuing a memo to Britnorth branch office, telling them to drop the whole ‘Scottish’ Labour charade?
@Ian More never in the history of human endeavour dismiss the Uninformed British Electorate.
Corbyn the labour messiah eh?
Sorry to pish on his supporters parade, but who wants to go back to the 70s?
A unionist is a unionist. Not even mentioning Scotland when he spoke in Glasgow revealed his true colours.
I hope they keep fighting like rats in a sack, the lying obsequious bastards.
Labour, just get take fuck. Cease, desist, disappear.
I see some weak minded Scots being taken in on twitter. Have they not learned?
Your British labour utopia is a mirage.
That will be full Devolution, Federalism, Home Rule etc. Cut Trident.
Or same old, same old. No women.
The best candidate one – an honest man ,who woulda thunkit?
OT Anyone seen another grubby little poll reported in the Herald? I need young James to analyse it.
I’m not sure how the coming of the new (old) messiah is gonna play out, but the quicksands of history are waiting for those who can’t make the right decisions.
These are very exciting times for the English, steady as she goes Nicola. 🙂
BBC’s description of support for Sturgeon as Idolatry. That must be the balance they boasted of when talking of snp
“Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale has welcomed the election of Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of the UK party.” 🙂
STV News.
New poll on independence. YouGov survey for The Times
https://archive.is/ZDIJ2
A bit of arithmetical luck for Blair there, he was just 0.16% away from having to round down to zero.
Best tweet of the day was from Toxic McTernan after Liz Kendal got 4.5% of the vote. “I am the 4.5%” he quipped. Pity one so hateful can be so witty.
its astonishing who would have thought it lol
well good luck to Jeremy he is going to need it as he becomes the most monstered person in the UK.
The satirist wing of the neo liberals will be out in force as he is giving the Foot treatment and ridiculed into being a joke.
But the big question is will it work on the English electorate or is the reality starting to dawn on them.
To any Jeremy Labour party supporters lurking out there tell him to cut loose the Scottish branch or we will give the blairites a reason to remove him in 2016.
“Choosing Corbyn is worse than a blunder, it’s a crime. One, moreover, that is terrible for this country’s politics. That’s why someone, anyone, even, Christ, Andy Burnham, would be a better choice for Labour. Because however decent Corbyn might be as a chap, there’s something repellent, something entirely indecent about his politics.”
Toryboy pinup A. Massie stomps his icke wickle foot a couple of weeks ago Spectator style. And then NOT redtory Kezia Dugdale says
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/02/kezia-dugdale-corbyn-win-leave-labour-carping-sidelines-years
“There are loads of people [in the Labour party] who are quite prepared to say ‘Och, it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t look like a prime minister, there’s someone who’s authentic and says what they believe’.”
“But I want there to be a Labour government; otherwise I’m wasting my time. I don’t want to spend my whole life just carping from the sidelines.”
“So you have to convince me that he can be [prime minister]. Here’s a guy that’s broken the whip 500 times. So how can the leader of the party enforce discipline with that record?”
Shurely shome red tory mistakes there unconvinced Kezia, hope she responds well to discipline from JC.
Iain More,
You are absolutely right.
Corbyn will never be PM.
A split in the Labour Party is inevitable and some of their voters on the right will defect to the Tories and UKIP, leaving Labour with a hopeless task.
Remember Michael Foot, who tried to embrace similar policies, and as result helped to usher in a generation of Tory and right wing Labour governments. The majority of English voters are suspicious of much of the republican/anti-NATO/public-ownership agenda, and will not support it.
As for Scotland, Corbyn has made it clear that he is against our independence.
I hope left wing independence supporters are not seduced by this false dawn
Folks shouldn’t forget it was old Labour who let Scotland down in 1946 and ’79 on Home Rule and devolution. 1997 was forced on them.
Strange article on Bella about Corbyn and Labour.
Kezia lying, ‘SNP bad’.
Unison secretary ‘Labour will have to work with the SNP’.
The story here is only partly Corbyn. Perhaps even bigger is how the Westminster Propaganda Machine is going to spin this over the next few months. The Blairites, for one, will find it impossible to take Corbyn seriously after 32 years as a back bencher continuously at odds with the neo-Liberal Labour Party.
At first I thought this could be interesting – but I’ve changed my mind. My concerns lie here in Scotland. Corbyn holds no hope for Scotland. Our future is up to us.
There is NO political will in England to genuinely help Scotland. Two million No voters are going to realise that over the next 4 years and 8 months of Tory punishment.
So Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour leadership.
Oh well, tin hats on, let battle commence. I see that the resignations from the shadow cabinet have started already.
The only wee problem that I have is this, who the hell are these nonentities that are resigning. Don’t think I’ve heard of some of them.
Still think the party will split. Popcorn at the ready, this could be very entertaining.
News just in
Tories in Scotland Planning to vote SNP to keep Labour out
Corbyn will never be UK PM.
Not because of what he might say, or what changes he might make to Labour, but because England has become a very right wing country with over half of them voting for extreme right parties in the GE (Con+UKIP). The Tories are in for 5, probably 10 years.
My concern, obviously shared by others, is that Labour start to take back some of the left Scottish vote. I notice Patrick Harvey has moved quickly to say he believes the Greens are the natural home for the left.
In the minds of many Scots, Corbyn will say a lot of things they want to hear. Many may not appreciate he is never actually going to be in a position to impliment them.
People used to say that Liberal could promise what it wanted, because they would never actually have to deliver. The same is currently true of Labour. The can talk the talk, but it won’t happen.
It does all have the potential to take some of the steam out of the Indy steam roller!
There is hope that Labour won’t get themselves into any coherent stance by next May. They may spend the next 8 months with in fighting.
A weak and unappealing Labour is essential to moving the Indy cause forward.
cmd 1.07pm
Last week it was 53% Yes, now it’s 48%. (apparently)
So what to make of it?
WuffingDug 12.58
“I see some weak minded Scots being taken in on twitter. Have they not learned?”
That’s the trouble with Scotland, too many 2nd rate people in it, unlike the majority of Catalans who have some balls and brains.
I think it’s almost certain that a significant number of ex slab voters will now return to the slab fold. I’m feeling conflicted about the whole Corbyn thing, on one hand it’s good to see the neo liberal establishment get a good kick in the balls but on the other hand it’s not good for the indy movement here. Corbyn MIGHT be genuinely left wing but he’s definitely an English nationalist.
The raison d’etre of the SNP is Scottish Independence. How are they going to react to this? Is it just going to be some polite waffling about “working together”?
Horatio Nelson also ukok hysterical, toryboy style
https://twitter.com/FraserNelson
Fraser Nelson ?@FraserNelson 2 hrs2 hours ago
When George Osborne watched Ed Miliband winning Labour leadership in 2010, he shouted “Yes!! Yes!! Yes!!” I imagine he has passed out now.
Are toryboys like Horatio faking it though
David Torrance ?@davidtorrance 2 hrs2 hours ago
Corbyn’s attacks on media straight out of Yes playbook: both realise that to win they have to delegitimise facts & those who report them.
BUT toryboy telegraph said join Lab for 3 of your English pounds and vote JC. Never satisfied that lot.
Call Me Dave says:
New poll on independence. YouGov survey for The Times
Honestly …who were they asking? The London Scots themselves!?!
Your average Joe Bloggs in the street doesn’t read The Times. If it is bought by anyone Scottish, it is bought by the ‘captains of industry’ or by people working in the major Financial Institutions. Somehow, I don’t think The Times sells big in Easterhouse, Niddrie or Wester Hailes. Can probably bet the house on that.
Seriously …what a load of nonsense. A snapshot of the opinions of the average Scottish person. It is just utter garbage.
I mean, ‘retention of nuclear weapons stands at 53%’ Eh!!! Who were they asking there …the navy boys at Faslane itself? ‘The poll also found Scots overwhelming support the abolition of the House of Lords (67%)’ …well, that’s a lie! I know no-one …absolutely no-one …who wishes the HoL’s to remain. They are saying that 33% of Scots like the HoL. A third of Scotland! Doubtful! Very Doubtful!!
Anyway LOL …I think I’ll treat this poll with a very large pinch of salt.
@jcd, very creepy trolling there
“That’s the trouble with Scotland, too many 2nd rate people in it, unlike the majority of Catalans who have some balls and brains”
I’m a 3rd rate person in Scotland, possible 4th, maybe even 5th rate, but thanks for the ukok laughs.
Jeremy can now join Syriza and Podemos and the SNP as the anti-austerity candidate. And suffer the inevitable consequences.
Chomsky interview on Democracy Now spells it out (4 mins):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgnt1pdZAXs
Heedtracker 1.51
Oh fuck off with your troll crap, I spent 3 weekends in the run up to the indy ref handing out Aye Right flyers in Glasgow city centre, voted Yes and also SNP in May and will again next time, twice.
So take your 6th rate stream of consciousness bullshit and shove it
O/T the 3 recent polls are practically identical when the 3% margin of error is taken into account and suggests its pretty much 50/50.
Next step is to appeal to the only group whose support will win it and that is the well off middle class professionals. We need to convince them that independence at the very least wont cost them and might even benefit them.
More talk of fairness and social equality is just preaching to the already converted.
JLT says: 12 September, 2015 at 1:45 pm:
“Anyway LOL …I think I’ll treat this poll with a very large pinch of salt.”
What a waste of perfectly good salt.
The Guardian’s bunch of phonies also totaly freaked out by JC, which is nice. UKOK meeja got away with destroying Scottish democracy so its good to see their whole toryboy field of attack open up in front of their slack jawed disbelief.
One from rancid a whimpering and lying Graun ed
“Corbyn won the votes of one quarter of one million people. In its way, that is an extraordinary achievement. But in May, after years of stagnation and cuts, David Cameron notched up just over 11 and a quarter million. Unless Corbyn can now turn some of his talk away from his own band of loyalists, to address the concerns of this much bigger group, then today’s victory will soon enough be followed by defenestration or defeat.”
Come back El Tone, we love you:D
I sat through the “election results” and was struck by two things:
a) Andy Burnham’s fierce internal struggle to hold back the tears and b) Liz Kendall’s body language which seemed to say “fuck it, Tory party here I come”.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
jcd
The polls are crafted in various ways and weighted in various ways. I think all we can say about the mood towards independence is that it is stronger this September than it was last September and the probability based on an average of the polls is that Yes are in front. However, we need it to be stronger still before we commit again. Once we are around the 60% mark the impetus will become unstoppable.
The UK political scene is in such turmoil that the next 5 years could be our best opportunity in a long time. A steady hand and bold heart and an eye for the right moment is what will take us there.
JLT says
“I mean, ‘retention of nuclear weapons stands at 53%’ Eh,!!”
Not what it seems. The results, with rather stacked multiple choice answers was…
37% scrap nukes
29% wanting cheaper less powerful nukes
24% back a direct Trident replacement
The Times added 29 + 24 and said 53% support the retention of nuclear weapons.
Since it isn’t at all clear what the cheaper option is, it would be more appropriate to interpretate the figures as …
66% want to scrap Trident
24% back Trident’s replacement
Tristram Hunt resigns as Labour’s Shadow Education Secretary, shock.
But however will Julian, Rupert, Bertram, Torquil, Cecil, Crispin, Georgie and Rupert etc vote JEZZA?!
The look on Kezia Dugdale’s face after the result was announced was priceless. 😀 She looked absolutely stunned. Marvellous stuff. I see the uber neo-liberalists/Red Tories have walked away in the huff already.
galamcennalath says:
Not what it seems. The results, with rather stacked multiple choice answers was…
Hi mate. Oh aye …get the whole stats thing, but the question remains …who exactly did they ask?
Finding out the ‘mood of Scotland’, then who did they really ask? Those who did answer will be leaning towards the ‘right-wing’ thinking of the State because they will probably either be the retired financially-secured pensioner, professionals working in the Financial sector, or they are ‘captains of industry’.
This poll would not have been done by anyone outside areas such as Morningside, Bearsden or someone sitting at their PC in a financial house.
My pet twitter Britnats and SLab dudes are not exactly thrilled by JC. Odd bunch the red toryboys of their Scotland region. One of them must have the stones to say, new New new SLabour anyone?
https://twitter.com/DrScottThinks
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 14 mins14 minutes ago
Scott Arthur retweeted Adam Tomkins
Aye, when the last Labour government took 2 million people out of poverty that was a big mistake.
You never know when Britnats are kidding or not.
https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins
Panic on the streets of Slovenia!
Bloody hell, when Prof Tomkinski does become Scotland’s greatest living toryboy and then Scotland’s Tory First Minister, hope he can keep his ukok hysterics in check, not like today.
Slovenia is a really lovely country and one day Prof T might take a holiday there, instead of scoping daily
http://www.sloveniatimes.com/daily-news
Ruthie says her labour pals are “in despair”
https://archive.is/YZ9An
Oh fuck off with your troll crap, I spent 3 weekends in the run up to the indy ref handing out Aye Right flyers in Glasgow city centre, voted Yes and also SNP in May and will again next time, twice.
Nice. So how did you differentiate between 1st and 2nd rate people though, a wee test maybe, special glasses, what can spot the 2nd rate, a 2nd rate people detector app on your phone, kind of underwear, shape of head, number of eyes?
I don’t know, help me out here. I want to be a 1st rate person too, like you jcd says:
This will be very interesting. I can hear them now, the no voting labour supporters and some reluctant labour yes supporters I have as friends.
Had an email a month or so ago from one such friend, (who will not mention Scottish Indy at all now, like it never happened) but has said more than once that this Labour leadership contest could change things for the better, for us all. Aye that’d be right, if you just sold your house for nearly a million as they did!
I just really hope that this does not delude the soft yes and swithering no voters into a false sense of security any time soon. Our election is not that far away so we will need to get some very stout shoes in the lead up to the Scottish election, to go knocking on lots of doors.
The need to dispel the (subliminal?) promises of milk, honey and jam tomorrow for voters in Scotland may well be imperative.
The result is good for the despondent left in England, but will do nothing for Scotland.
@Kenzie: didn’t you notice c) … Kez’s mug trippin her, poor wee sidelined carp that she is?
I think some commenters here are being too pessimistic about the implications of Corbyn’s new job vis-à-vis Scottish Independence.
His presence will divide the energies of the BritNat, neo-lib establishment between monstering him and monstering SNP: their commentariat will be stretched to breaking point. As Labour move incrementally left, it will be harder for Pacific Quay to keep up their agenda of SNP=Bad, Lab=Good. Scottish voters will see English-Welsh-Morningside Labour voting with the SNP in a progressive way at WM, and hopefully sinking some of the most heinous Tory bills. That’s got to be good for SNP, and bad for SLab and other unionist parties here. Electoral success for the SNP isn’t identical with support for indy, but it helps that the pro-Indy voices are the only ones who can effectively, powerfully effect the will of the Scottish people at WM.
And Corbyn may be unionist, but he’s not a triumphalist British Nationalist – he seems to have some genuine democratic and internationalist principles (who’da thunkit). I can’t see him ever running a UKOK fear project against our self-determination. Somebody above called him an ‘English Nationalist’. Great! That’s exactly the kind of people we like, democratic, patriotic Englishmen who want the best for their own country, and will leave us to make the best of ours.
The only downside I see is that the best year for IndyRef2 might be 2021 now, instead of 2018 – just to let middle England show that a progressive party can never hold power in the UK, at GE20… that should clinch at least a 60% Yes next time round.
jcd says:
12 September, 2015 at 1:41 pm
..
I think it’s almost certain that a significant number of ex slab voters will now return to the slab fold. I’m feeling conflicted about the whole Corbyn thing, on one hand it’s good to see the neo liberal establishment get a good kick in the balls but on the other hand it’s not good for the indy movement here. Corbyn MIGHT be genuinely left wing but he’s definitely an English nationalist.
——-
Yep, he seems to be against more powers for Scotland, but has tended to skirt over the issue.
He says he is a socialist, not a unionist. He says he would work with the SNP. But his position is far from clear.
Would he stand in the way of a second referendum ?
What is his position on a currency zone ?
Do you think all the people who put in print, ‘Corbyn won’t win’, are now feeling a bit of an ass.
Would he stand in the way of a second referendum ?
What is his position on a currency zone ?
It makes no difference what JC says, England is Tory now and will be for at least another 10 years.
Next up, PM Osborne, who already wants to make a big impact in his Scotland region. Vote YES choice gets clearer day by ukok day.
Kezia really needs a reality check – my reading of the labour chain of command is – leader at the top, below him any shadow minister, UK labour MPs then Scottish labour leader. UK labour will always view its Scottish branch below all UK MPs.
He says he is a socialist, not a unionist. He says he would work with the SNP. But his position is far from clear.
In conclusion, the real teamGB irony for SLabour red tory Brtinats? JC could have done really well if he’d replaced James T Murphy, in their Scotland region May 7 2015. Arent we lucky.
To be fair, he couldn’t have done any worse. Well we have Ian Murray MP but its a unpleasant reminder of just how awful Slab are, like Alistair Carmichael and Fluffie too.
All the red tory toys will be flying oot the prams soon. They should start their own red tory party,stand against Mr Corbyns lot and see who wins.
Michael Fallon, Tory Defence Secretary, is wheeled out today for the media to declare Labour to now be a threat to national security. And he said it without looking at the bit of paper he had been given by No 10.
For Michael Fallon, who is hardly allowed to speak on anything these days, this was heady stuff. He may even have been allowed out on his own, which is unusual.
His previous humiliation came with the visit of George Osborne to Faslane for a cup of navy tea and a line in the lavvy, to tell them he was giving Faslane £500 million. That was really a job for Michael Fallon, but without his carers, Michael just couldn’t be let anywhere near a submarine.
Have to say I am concerned at how many SNP supporters on here are echoing the Tories / Blairites’ churlish and dismissive comments of other sites on Corbyn’s election, often almost word for word.
Complacency isn’t just an unattractive quality, it betrays a narrow mindset that brings fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamics at play. If we’ve learned anything from the politics of the past few years, surely it should be that we live in tumultuous times where very little is predictable any more.
Independence has to be about something rather than just for its own sake if we’re going to win over hearts and minds, and I’m afraid those on here who think endlessly posting “SNP Good!” is any smarter than the BT / Labour bleating of “SNP Bad!” are doing no favours for themselves – or the cause of independence.
Blind adherence to a party brand did for the Labour Party and it won’t help the SNP in the long run either. Some in Labour have got that message, as Corbyn’s landslide shows.
The game’s changed, folks. We have to up ours.
Sorry if someone already mentioned this but even Corbyn himself thanked the ‘more than half million who took part…’ in the second sentence of his acceptance speech.
David Torrance 2 hours ago:
Corbyn’s attacks on media straight out of Yes playbook: both realise that to win they have to delegitimise facts & those who report them.
What a snivelling little creep Torrance is; that statement is self-serving.
Yep..
BEEB been planning today’s news for a while..noticed that Fallon had carefully rehearsed his ‘to camera’ speech, with lowered camera angle, lovely backdrop and new respectable haircut & make-up.
The BBC also had, as usual, that terrible Telegraph wifie on Dateline, spouting tory ideology but at the same time agreeing with everyone else.
Oh, and a seemingly planted German chap who wrote a book 15 years ago, and he just loves us, and the queen…
… SO WE SHOULD ALL RELAX AS WE HAVE THE ROYALS TO LOOK AFTER OUR AFFAIRS AND PROTECT US FROM THE ESTABLISHMENT.
Gain Estler.. come on man, where’s the cutting edge.
Dr Ew: Have to say I am concerned at how many SNP supporters on here are echoing the Tories / Blairites’ churlish and dismissive comments of other sites on Corbyn’s election, often almost word for word.
Can you post anything, anything at all, that Corbyn has uttered that convinces you he has Scotland’s democratic rights close to his heart? Anything?
There are a few ideals he holds holy that chime with SNP policy, such as the non-renewal of trident.
Beyond that, do you really think this fine example of an Englishman, Jeremy Corbyn, is about to call in his shadow cabinet and tell them its Home Rule for Scotland as soon as they can join forces with the SNP to push a suitable Bill through Westminster?
As Corbyn left Scotland he uttered the ominous phrase, “I thought Sturgeon promised no new referendum for a generation.”
Not exactly a man with Scotland’s political health top of his agenda, more a man who cares about weaning Scots away from independence.
FT is furious.
“The main concern, however, is for the state of British politics. In Britain, as in any democracy, governments must be tested and challenged by an authoritative opposition. After Mr Corbyn’s victory, that will not happen. That is bad for Labour and worse for the country.”
Toryboys eh. Socialism for the rich, austerity for the poor, its the only ukok way.
Independence has to be about something rather than just for its own sake if we’re going to win over hearts and minds, and I’m afraid those on here who think endlessly posting “SNP Good!” is any smarter than the BT / Labour bleating of “SNP Bad!” are doing no favours for themselves – or the cause of independence.
Come back 10 to 20 years after independence and say that. Right now it doesn’t mean much if anything.
JC as PM would be like every other PM has ever been, entirely focused on England, primarily on London and the south east. But its never going to happen, so chillax.
Grouse Beater says
And no doubt wanting us to return lots of loyal Labour voting fodder to the better together Westminster circus.
I fear he may be an impediment to progress, rather than an agent of it.
His first test will be the lamentable Scotland Bill. Will he demand at least Smith is delivered?
Pretty balanced BBC London welcome for JC, Islington North BBC vox pop nicely balanced, JC says he’s going to sort out the affordable housing probs of London and now focused on London mayor election, in London.
time to start carping from the sidelines Kezia!
Heedtracker,
But the SNP BAD mantra is a negative statement.
Saying UK BAD like you say is just as bad, but often used to compare negative to our positive.
Effigy says
“For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
than a rich man enter the kingdom of Fife-sorry Heaven,”
Yea
because we’ll have his wheels off at 30mph!
its oft said formula1 racing take their pit teams from Ballingry
we’re geezers we are. 😉
It appears a couple of people have misconstrued my previous post, intentionally or otherwise.
Independence as a political goal exists in a far wider context, and always will. That context has changed since last September and is still changing. Corbyn’s election marks what may be a profound change in that context though exactly how it will play remains to be seen. The ‘Red Tories’ epithet may not stick next time and if people see the possibility of profound change at Westminster – as opposed to managerial substitution – then that changes things even more significantly. And if the SNP don’t include a referendum in the 2016 manifesto then everything is likely to be on the long finger till after 2020.
Whatever the case, tribal breastbeating “SNP Good, Everything Else Bad” does absolutely nothing for our cause. We need to develop a stronger, clearer and deeper vision of independence if we’re going to win hearts AND minds.
As I said, the game has changed.
Marie Clark @1.33
“The only wee problem that I have is this, who the hell are these nonentities that are resigning. Don’t think I’ve heard of some of them.”
Why do you think they resigned?
its the only way they’ll get their names into the public domain.
Saying UK BAD like you say is just as bad, but often used to compare negative to our positive.
No I’m saying that without FFA or anything near it, UKOK will always have SNP Scots.gov by the short and curlies. possible Smith Commission paye devo is there because they think it can harm Scotland and thereby independence, JC is clearly focused on south east of England land, so if he does get into No.10, Scotland will be nothing more than a resource to exploit, as per. He may even scrap Faslane completely. UKOK war is not a choice for Scots and so on.
But first he has to convince far right UKOK dudes like Horatio here
Fraser Nelson ?@FraserNelson 3 hrs3 hours ago
Half of Labour voters side with the Tories over key issues. Corbyn may be the final straw: http://goo.gl/tiKz1d
If…
‘a week is a long time in politics’.
Then also perhaps…
‘generations can pass quickly in politics ‘
I would say the time between two general elections as a minimum.
Fair enough?
Labour Uncut posted nothing for three days and then today it posted a guide on how to remove a Labour leader.
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/09/12/what-the-labour-leadership-election-rules-say-about-removing-a-leader/
(Insert gif of Gunter drinking the Ice King’s salty tears).
We need to develop a stronger, clearer and deeper vision of independence if we’re going to win hearts AND minds.
We have it. We know only sovereignty regained protects civil rights, and allow Scotland to progress without outside interference.
It is not us that has to crystallise our policies but our English counterparts. Tories intend on destabilising the Scottish economy, indeed, have already begun that process, Corbyn has to prove he’s a friend to Scotland, not another imperialist that happens to sport a seafarer’s beard.
Scotland has stated its conditions.
Let the UK government answer.
@Grouse Beater 6.38pm
Re Corbyn : Nicola is already playing it canny with her statement today that Labour must show they have a “credible chance of wining a UK general election”.
Put short, they don’t. There was an excellent article on Bella Caledonia (11/9/15) titled “The Fall and Rise of Tory England and the Crisis of Labour”. It shows – persuasively – just how much the 20th century was the ‘Conservative Century’; that (possibly apart from the 1945-51 Attlee government) during the brief interludes of ‘Labourism’ their role was to apply but ameliorate essentially Tory policies; and that from the first Ramsay MacDonald Labour government in 1924, Labour has always allowed the interests of (the British) ‘nation’ to trump class interests. I have seen and heard nothing from Corbyn to suggest that he will deviate from that agenda. For all his support over 30 years for various groups, nations and causes seeking self-determination, his whole economic and social prescriptions are given through a Britnat prism. In particular, short of independence, he has no record of supporting even federalism or genuine devo-max.
The boundary changes introduced by the Tories before GE2020 are likely to give them an extra 20-25 seats. Even if Corbyn provides incentives to a significant minority of the 13 million English GE non-voters, the electoral system will be so loaded against Labour that it will take something like a 1997 landslide to produce a Labour majority in 2020 of *one* (see the article by Tim Smith, 2/6/15, at http://www.democraticaudit.com : ‘The UK electoral system now decisively favours the Conservatives’).
So we can no doubt expect to hear that with Corbyn at the helm, Labour has ‘come home’; that the centre-left non-nationalist Yes/SNP voters can return to the fray; that Corbyn provides an effective anti-austerity voice to trump anything the SNP offers. But quite apart from the relentless ‘loony left’ demonisation Corbyn is going to experience at the hands of the right-wing press for the next 5 years; the vagaries of the electoral system and the history of Tory-voting England, particularly in the Middle England marginals, are sufficient to ensure neo-liberal Toryism until at least 2025.
I hope to goodness we’re independent before then.
Democracy Reborn:
Re Corbyn : Nicola is already playing it canny with her statement today that Labour must show they have a “credible chance of wining a UK general election”.
I spotted that, that and her announcement Corbyn should speak clearly on Trident.
Aye, she’s canny all right.
I’m prepared to keep an open mind on Corbyn, but no matter how he dresses or shaves, he is NOW part and parcel of the British establishment. He has to prove to us that he is a radical. It is not up to us to rearrange our crockery in case he should visit for tea.
Dr Ew says:
12 September, 2015 at 7:57 pm
“.. The ‘Red Tories’ epithet may not stick next time and if people see the possibility of profound change at Westminster – as opposed to managerial substitution – then that changes things even more significantly
..
As I said, the game has changed.
I agree.
I don’t know how it will affect Holyrood elections, but it will be harder to retain SNP MP’s at the next UK general election.
I imagine he will soon do a swift U-turn on some of his principles to make it easier to win in England – especially nuclear bombs and NATO.
What the SNP have got is the simple argument that nationhood is better than regionhood within the UK.
They already support many of his policies. But with sovereignty, we don’t have to wait until England elects or rejects Jeremy Corbyn. We always get the policies that most Scots vote for.
What his leadership means though is that there is less likely to be a 2nd referendum before 2020, assuming the Labour party doesn’t implode first.
Before that, and traditional Labour supporters here may be tempted by the argument to wait for a Corbyn-led UK government to get socialism again.
Now if a ‘real Labour’ party is defeated again in England, then surely that will be the last straw for their remaining supporters in Scotland.
I expect that is why Blair Jenkins expects 2021 to be the most likely date to win a second referendum.
Congrats to Jeremy Corbyn on today winning leadership of the British Labour War Crime Party.
To have finally reached this pinnacle after his Party has enacted so many immoral acts and policies shows an admirable almost blind loyalty to the Party and committment to his career.
He must be very proud of himself.
Mr Corbyn seems a person with some interesting views ,but from what I have read those views don’t really do Scotland any good re indy,he is after all a unionist,and I don’t recall him standing up for Yes,or maybe I just missed that bit,seems they can change leader,but still don’t understand that Scotland doesn’t belong to Westminster. We’ll let them know when we want to have another indyref.
Every group of people in countries that joined the United Nations have the right to self determination. That doesn’t mean just once or once in a generation,it means they have and retain that right.
Re the next indyref timing,I believe the ability to call a referendum must be in any Scottish Governments armoury,we’ll get nowhere if you have no leverage with Westminster otherwise,and the mere threat of another indyref is leverage. If you have nothing,the Tories and other unionists will concede nothing.
Torygraph raging away JC, Gove this time, extremely dreary man and torygraph did plead for its readers to vote JC-
One of the giants of the old Labour left, Aneurin Bevan, once warned his party not to abandon a strong defence and nuclear weapons because that would send any British Foreign Secretary seeking peace, “naked into the conference chamber.” Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour would make Aneurin Bevan weep at how far the Left had fallen.
A good JC Labour test will be if Ian Murray will still be able to get away with this sort of sneaky shit in action stuff
http://wingsoverscotland.com/ian-murray-is-a-liar/
If Murray still coming it by Xmas, JC has no authority. If it stops but red tories like Murray need to be whipped to actually vote JC left, how will BBC vote red tory Scotland cope with it all?
The new comedy from England’s Ealing Studios – ‘Drones Galore’:
http://wp.me/p4fd9j-1ZD
I’m a bit relieved that the victory for Corbyn has removed some of the inappropriate stuff we have been using to support an independence campaign.
We will now have to get down to the core reasons for seeking independence which have nothing to do with the health, direction or otherwise of the Labour Party.
We have been relying too heavily on the ill health of Labour for some time
We will have to concentrate on national self respect, the benefits of self determination, the self sufficiency of the Scottish economy, our abilities as evidenced by our admirable history of invention, innovation and constructive thought and our enlightened social conscience.
We will have to concentrate on national self respect, the benefits of self determination, the self sufficiency of the Scottish economy, our abilities as evidenced by our admirable history of invention, innovation and constructive thought and our enlightened social conscience.
As we have been doing these last three years, attacks on Labour usually in response to their risible idea of how to treat the population of Scotland. What we have relied on is a general detestation of Tory extreme policies by the electorate, and guess what. The Tories are still providing us with ammunition.
So, it’s steady as we go.
Dave McEwan Hill
‘We have been relying too heavily on the ill health of Labour for some time’
Whilst I obviously concur with the idea of promoting the positive benefits of Independence, which goes without saying.I think many people’s ‘inappropriate stuff’goes way beyond the issue of independence for Scotland.
The outrage at what Labour governments have perpetrated on peoples in far off lands in our name deserves a bit more than just voting against the Whip or mealy mouthed criticism and hand wringing.
I don’t feel any relief at Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership of Labour as I fully expect him to trample over Scotland’s democratic aspirations just like all Unionists before him.
Ok, Jeremy Corbyn us an evil unionist – big fucking deal. If he’s even halfway successful he’ll still shoot holes in the SNP prow sufficient to sink the good ship independence for – forgive the analogy – at least a generation.
We’re all convinced of the case for independence. So what? What about the soft vote of the “45”? What about the 55% we need tonwin over? The Labourites who were wearied and disgusted by Blairism might return to the fold if something with a bit more meat is on offer. SNP Good, Red Tories Bad as a counter argument isn’t going to cut it.
This website publishes a lot of astute analysis. Sadly the quality of discourse below the line is often too complacent, tribal and inward looking to move things forward. News flash – the MSM is going to be every bit as hostile to a Corbynite Labour Party as it has been to the Yes Movement. The persecution angle – however true – isn’t going to have the same resonance for the foreseeable future.
As I said, we’re going to have to up our game. And no amount of bellyaching is going to alter that new reality.
Dr Ew says:
13 September, 2015 at 2:46 am
As I said, we’re going to have to up our game. And no amount of bellyaching is going to alter that new reality.
I agree, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Let’s see how this pans out before we adjust to the new landscape. JC is now under enormous pressure to come up with the anti-austerity, anti-trident goods. He talked the talk, now he must walk the walk. Big test votes at WM coming soon. If he “compromises” like every single Labour leader before him, he will never be forgiven.
So, for now – don’t panic. Watch how events unfold and respond accordingly.
I would gladly embrace independence if only to get rid of jerks such as Fats McDougall.
We’re all convinced of the case for independence. So what?
You’re not really adept at this quality of leadership thing.
Or ‘game is already up’ and you never rouse the rank and file telling them they are a bunch of work shy layabouts.
Who feels Corbyn will be able to sustain his ‘we don’t do abuse’ line during prime minister’s goading time?
@grousebeater
Cameron will rip that guy to shreds during pmqt.
A political dinosaur who i think will be totally out of his depth.
Can he maintain his stoic demeanor under camerons continuous mocking of his 1970`s soundbites?
Certain figures may very well believe he may stem the tide of independance stretching out the union for a few more years appeasing the socialist jockos.
I dont even think he will make the 2020 election before labour depose him.
I also believe many are overestimating his impact.
Time will tell.
Dr Ew
MSM is going to be just as hostile to Cornyn as Yes movement.
You seriously think BBC Scotland and the Daily Record and the Guardian etc will be hostile in Scotland to Labour.
Prescribe yourself some anti delusional drugs ‘doctor’
@dakk
Please don’t try diagnosis when you’re clerly not qualified. I prescribe a course of treatment for your persecution complex.
Session #1: Understaning the MSM aren’t just against the Independence Movement, they’re against any political expression that challenges the omnipotence of the concentrated power clique whose interests they represent.
Session #2: Read more widely.
Session #3: Get over yourself.
Get well soon.
Dr Ew
I don’t think you get the dichotomy between the Scottish MSM and the r UK MSM.
In Scotland the threat to the concentrated power clique IS the Independence Movement, so they can attack Corbyn’s Labour in England/Wales whilst backing them in Scotland to kill the Independence threat.They’ve already been doing that for years.
PS. Don’t think much of your bedside manner. 🙂
Dakk: MSM is going to be just as hostile to Cornyn as Yes movement.
No doubt about it. 🙂
It began ages ago, and will continue with increased ferocity.
Can you see Murdoch or the Barclay brothers telling their editors to praise Corbyn as the natural voice of middle England?
And the media (original name for TV and radio) have their template laid out – reporters always asking him about his support for hideous terrorists (fill in the blank space here).
How many despots and dictators is Cameron supporting? Let’s see our diligent journalists begin a sentence, “Why are you supporting Israeli bombing of Gaza?”
Grousebeater 4.42
‘Can you see Murdoch or the Barclay brothers telling their editors to praise Corbyn’
I agree those media outlets won’t be backing Corbyn even in Scotland.
However the State Broadcaster,the Daily Record,the Scotsman and the Herald will push him to damage SNP and they have collectively far more coverage than the Sun/Times/Telegraph.Well its BBC Scotland who are the real heavyweights.
I don’t have a media background like yourself,but I just can’t envisage the Labour MSM in Scotland attacking their own man and helping SNP.
Then again,maybe I just have a’ persecution complex’ like the good doctor above suggests.
Ffs Are you in on it as well.Are yous gonnae try an get me Sectioned ? 🙂
Am outta here !
Just watched Sky News bigging up Corbyn whilst interviewing young Scots saying ‘you don’t need Independence when Jeremy Corbyn can give you the policies you like’ or words to that effect.
Did’nt have long to wait.They’ll trash him in England and lionise him in Scotland.
The existential threat to the London Establishment in Scotland is SNP/Indy.In England it is Corbyn(if he even constitutes that).
The MSM can and will fight two different fights in Scotland and rest of UK even with mixed messages from the overlap.They’ve been doing it for years.
The point is they don’t need Labour to lose in Scotland to keep Corbyn out,its only the SNP they fear in Scotland.