As it was, is, and shall be
As we were collecting stuff for the new Repository in our Reference section, an alert reader pointed us to the thing we’re about to show you, which we hadn’t seen before. It dates from 1975 but was only released to the public a few years ago under the 30-year rule – having been kept secret by successive Labour and Conservative administrations in the intervening period – until it was retrieved by Irish journalist Tom Griffin.
It’s the minutes from a discussion between some UK government civil servants on the subject of Scottish devolution, in relation to oil revenues, and what the public should be told about them. This was Westminster’s attitude to informing the electorate when even a small amount of self-determination of Scotland was at stake. Read it and ask yourself if you think the opponents of independence are being any more honest now.
“DEVOLUTION: ECONOMIC ADVANTAGES TO SCOTLAND OF THE UNION
As you know, the paper the Chancellor is likely to put in a paper for discussion at the meeting of the Ministerial Devolution Strategy Committee fixed for 3 June. It will suggest, among other things, that a determined effort should be made to persuade Scotland that it is in her own economic interest to remain part of an integrated UK economy.
I have been asked to produce some material which the Chancellor could use in support of this proposal, initially (presumably) in persuading his colleagues at DS that the thing could be done, and thereafter, in whatever form were judged suitable, in public debate.
2. We have already had several exchanges on the subject; and I think we are fairly well agreed on the following.
a. The prospective revenue from oil beneath Scotland’s “share” of the UK Continental Shelf in the 1980’s is very large by comparison with her likely GDP. The crude comparison of, say, £3 thousand million revenue with £6 thousand million GDP is no doubt misleading, partly because an independent Scottish Government would adopt a slower depletion policy, partly because Scotland would (apart from oil) have a balance of payments deficit needing to be covered and would lose substantial transfers from the UK (though there is some overlap here).
Nevertheless, the orders of magnitude are sufficient to show that Scotland would have more cash on independence than under continued union.
b. Scotland might lose free access to the UK market after independence; and this could have serious effects on many of her industries. However, if she stayed in the EEC, this argument would lose much of its force. Either England would also stay in (and free trade would continue) or, at the worst, if England withdrew, Scotland would have access to Europe. No doubt there would be transitional difficulties, but oil would smooth them over.
c. Scotland would still face some serious structural problems, and might not solve them if she adopted the wrong policies. But clearly one cannot stake much in public on an argument based on the assumption that she would adopt them; and the ability, for example, to run an independent currency would in fact give her some new and helpful policy options.
d. One can legitimately point out that a Scottish economy would be heavily dependent on oil prices, with their attendant risks, and that her longer-term prospects might be less obviously attractive than her shorter-term ones. But it is hard to be more specific or convincing than that.
3. Apart from generalities, the most promising line seems to me to be the argument that Scotland has done reasonably well out of the Union in her times of troubles and ought not to break it now that she has better prospects. This argument, if it can be established with convincing detail, will be a forceful one: it is in my view partly because of it that the SNP are so anxious to argue at every turn that Scotland is exploited by “English” institutions of Government and they are so very reluctant to admit that Scotland ever had a favourable balance in her financial dealings with Westminster.
4. I should like to discuss this and see what sort of case could be constructed, so that we can advise the Chancellor in good time before the meeting on 3 June. I will try to arrange a meeting early next week. It will be helpful then to have views on the general arguments and an indication of what factual material is available to Divisions.
M S Buckley
19 May 1975″
The best of both worlds, right?
Wow. Has that big clock at Westminster been stopped all these years?
Time warp anybody? 🙂
“Scottish banks could expect to find themselves inundated with a sepecukative inflow of foreign funds”
McCrone 1974
Struggling then to make a case for staying in the Union, still struggling now. Game over in September chaps. Toodle-pip.
This chimes with the same McCrone evidence and other hiddden paper trails.
What would really be the bees’ knees would be to find the responses of the various UK Gove departments heads, minions, particpants and other lackeys to this and other linked minutes.
B t P
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Spooky.
Same shit, different day
It never fails to astonish me how the arguments against devolution in the 1970’s are the self-same twaddle that BT is trotting out 40 years later.
Those arguments were wrong then and are wrong now.
Is there an official link to this paper?
Rev,As it was,is, and shall be, No MORE,ALPHA.
Interesting to see that the argument that was thought strongest was appealing to Scots’ better natures, why should we selfishly walk off with the oil revenues when the union had seen us good when, ehm, you know. And this was the argument that did have traction.
Thatcher killed any sense of gratitude we might have had for England though.
So the Sir Humphrys of this world actually tell the politicians what to tell the people.Either that or they have been instructed to work on a plan which may be viewed in future as politically biased.
It’s all just the same old spin. There is nothing new today that wasn’t being said then. I wonder what is in the ’97 devolution papers that they won’t release, probably just another variation on what we have here, they never have anything new to say.
Our pals and comrades the Labour government Harold Wilson & Tony Benn was Energy minister. Oil/petrol crisis 1973 I have still got my rationing ticket somewhere which were issued but never used.
We had just had a vote in 1973 to join EEC majority to stay. I voted not to stay in. So lots going on then.
PS only Orkney & Shetland voted no
Anyhoo! Moral is never trust Whitehall or Labour.
There were other papers released at the same time which Tom Griffin got hold of. I’ve been posting links to these papers for years but I think very few people actually click on the links inserted in posts BTL.
This other State Paper on Scotland refers to what is called concern at the Scottish problem:
link to tomgriffin.org
Oil/petrol crisis 1975. Sorry about that error.
sometimes, and dare I say it, Better Together have got a point because we have been a bit too stupid in the years since 1975 not to wake up to this sooner. It’s a bit like a hard done by spouse believing the life they live to be “normal”
That’s incredible stuff – nice to see WM honesty at last. Shame it’s unlikely to to hit MSM though – I’d just love to see the the BBC Scotlandshire newsbots choking back the rage as they read that out.
@ Alexicon:
Tom Griffin gave links to the documents in the National Archives
link to discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk
link to discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk
But they say: This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded. Request a quotation for a copy to be digitised or printed and sent to you.
@ Red Squirrel:
That’s incredible stuff – nice to see WM honesty at last. Shame it’s unlikely to to hit MSM though
These papers were released in 2006. The MSM have had over seven years to get round to telling us about them.
Nowhere near as transparently hideous as the above, but I read this, this morning. Strangely, all the examples of perceived unfairness by the HoL focus group targeted Scotland as the unjustifiable transgressor because of population growth (or the lack of it in Scotland’s case) despite the obvious extra chunk of mula per person NI gets, and the close to Scotland share acquired by Wales.
Interesting that when accounting attributable costs to persons, only in Scotland does the Police Force count as a cost, and by proxy, the same ignorance is applied to the reason that each country is attributed a different percentile based on what is devolved.
link to publications.parliament.uk
Even more perplexing, the percentile given to England’s per capita share is never broken down to region. This maybe because it is not well known that different regions of England receive markedly different amounts of money. London receives 114%, the North East 111% to Scotland’s 117%. Obviously very little disparity, nothing like the ‘average’ English per capita figure we soo often are given – wonder why? Half way down this Wiki page;
link to en.wikipedia.org
Jimbo says:
16 January, 2014 at 8:19 pm
“There were other papers released at the same time which Tom Griffin got hold of. I’ve been posting links to these papers for years but I think very few people actually click on the links inserted in posts BTL.”
They do, actually
And we still haven’t been allowed to see all the papers pertaining to the current devolution settlement.
I have a strong suspicion they wouldn’t show Westminster in a good light.
Jim Sillars is absolutely correct when deriding their title of “Better Together”.
O/T and not sure if anyone’s covered this already but good article in The Guardian re: foodbanks
” As the UK government report review of food aid gathers dust, an official study in Scotland is unambiguous about why more people have become reliant on food parcels “
It is great really, that this stuff is now coming in, a very good time to bring it all into focus. I hope the SG read this, and in case the missed it first time they will have it now.( I am pretty certain they will keep an eye on what comes into Wings ) if not WHY ?
I would like to suggest that the The Anthem for Independence debate should be the 1981 hit for The Clash, “Should I stay or should I go” If I remember the chorus went, something like: “Should I stay or should I go now, tell me YES or tell me NO now.
If I stay there could be trouble, and if I go it could be double”
I’m sure someone has the lyrics to share.
@Jimbo
I looked at the paper you gave the link to and boy, was it illuminating, especially the last point,
“8. If there is a moral from all this, it is that progress toward devolution should be delayed for as long as possible consistently with honouring the Government’s commitment to move down the devolution road and containing the SNP lobby in Parliament. The longer this can be played, the better the prospect that the external deficit will have narrowed, so that dependence on ongoing external financing will be reduced or eliminated. Hopefully also, a situation by the end of the decade in which the non-oil sectors of the UK economy are in heathier shape will to some extent mitigate the drive for separation.
F(RMSA) Division HM Treasury 6 May 1975”
Jimbo, it was probably you that I got that link/document from in the first place, so the credit goes to you (and Tom Griffin, obviously).
I’ll still take a pathetic amount of pride in finally reaching alert reader status though.
Wouldn’t it be a treat to see what sort of memos these Masters of the Universe are sending to each other now?
‘The Scottish problem’ – isn’t that what they call ‘a euphemism’?
Just spoke to my brother on the old dog-and-bone. He manages a pub in central Manchester, mixed clientele, lots of city types by day, trendies at night. In his fly-on-the-wall opinion, the attitudes to the referendum have taken a serious shift since (roughly)the launch of the WP – it’s no longer just good-natured ribbing about the sweaty-socks and their pretendy parliament. It’s starting to sink in, and they don’t like it one wee bit.
Makes you feel welcomed into that close bond of support that the union has provided…”let’s bleed them dry before they can convince their fellow countrymen of the truth”.
Alex Salmond, and the SNP, have devoted their lives to what will happen on 18 September 2014. I am sure that all of this stuff, and more, is securely stored on numerous hard drives ready to release in the coming months.
Look at how relaxed Salmond was in giving his New Years speech – a man in command of his brief and in control of Scotland’s situation
It’s all in the timing. (imo, and not being complacent in the slightest).
How low can these people stoop. Taking peoples’s hard earned monies/ taxes, squandering and wasting it while they continues to take £Millions of public money. These people are beneath contempt.
Lobbydosser
Many Thanks and don’t the lyrics work great if you think of this “Union” that we are in as a personal relationship or even a marriage?
Lobeydosser,
Sorry for wrongly spelling your name. I must have been typing in my Kelvinside Glasgow accent!
O.T. Can someone help. I thought I saw a comment stating that the percentage of folk employed by the “state” in Scotland is now less than the percentage of folk employed by the state in the rest of the UK. If I could get a source for that a NO friend might become a maybe.
Just watching Bernard Ponsonby pretending to give Alistair Darlinga hard time on Scotland Tonight.
Early Ball
try the Business for Scotland site. I read that stat myself not too far back.
I’ll have a look later when I get home.
Hey! What difference putting in a comment from my tablet. I can put in space
at last
Slightly O/T. Glad Jim Sillars has (at last) once and for all clarified that he is 100% for independence. Would dearly love to see him on the same platform with Alex Salmond in full reconciliation though. A simple hand shake between them would heal a lot of history and be a big lift to the campaign.
Anyhoo, he makes some very good points here, hard hitting and straight, like many do here, and hopefully in a way that our front line politicos can emulate.
We need to get a Yes vote as Darling might give being a MP after referendum. Story on Torygraph :- link to archive.is
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
Early ball is this what you are looking for ? A business for Scotland pie chart.
Ian Brotherhood,
“it’s no longer just good-natured ribbing about the sweaty-socks and their pretendy parliament. It’s starting to sink in, and they don’t like it one wee bit.”
I’ve been increasingly aware of this for some time now. Otherwise good, affable, intelligent friends from the London and s.e., becoming angry and affronted by the prospect of indy Scotland. They perceive us as anti English ingrates, and no amount of rational explanation will change that perception.
I’ve resorted to patronising sympathy. Assuring them that we’ll still be good friends, they will get along just fine without us, and we’ll still care about them. ” Honestly, it’s not you, it’s us.”
Then I throw UKIP into the mix and BANG! off they predictably go. A bit like fly fishing, but much more fun, and a guaranteed strike every time.
@Ananurhing –
I don’t know what circles your friends move in, but the folk my wee bra was telling me about are, for the most part, Lefty-sorts like meself – they’re taking the huff because their Scottish comrades seem to be backing this independence lark.
Well, ‘solidarity’ an’ aw that cuts both ways – they may want to start getting their heads around unfolding realities, and show us some support rather than carping on about ‘International’ daydreams. As and when they decide they’ve had enough of Westminster (in Manchester, Liverpool, Northumberland, Cumbria, Yorkshire etc) they’ll be looking to us for advice.
Just been watching Gordon Brewer giving Cap’n Darling a (slightly) hard time on the currency union. “Yes but if there were to be a yes vote, a currency union would be the best option” and watching AD declare that contrary to what everyone else now thinks a currency union is now dead in the water. From the look and sound of him doesn’t even convince himself, simply parroting a line. Also interesting his admission that the polls are closer than the opinion polls say they are. Fear there I think.
@ ian
love the fact you have a speaking bra (some typos too good to resist) 🙂
@kininvie –
It wasn’t a typo. That’s what I call him. With a Glaswegian accent, it makes perfect sense.
(Of course, he refers to me as ‘the big bra’.)
Anyway, as chance would have it, I saw the Darling/Brewer interview – painful stuff. It was like watching an old, defenceless badger being given electro-shock therapy.
better together have obviously been doing some research that didn’t quite come out as expected. I wonder for how much longer the official unbiased, trustworthy pollsters can continue to hide the truth that the gap is much narrower than they suggest.
Ian
I’m finding this across the board. From London lefties, to oasthouse dwelling home counties Tories ready to vote UKIP.
The same thread runs through their argument. That we’re ungrateful, selfish, and in need of a few lessons in economics.
I don’t blame them really. They’re fed a daily diet of MSM ignorance with no foil to counter the guff.
Maybe Stu could launch a ” Wings over Albion” site, making reassuring noises to calm their fevered brows. That’d be a hoot.
Just discovered I’m paying for a £15 billion underground railway project across London – my gratitude overfloweth my wine glass !
“love the fact you have a speaking bra (some typos too good to resist)”
Unfortunately the average Englishman response if you let them know that you will vote Yes is shock! Basically they cannot believe it possible that you would “abandon” the UK and separate as they say.
OK when I say average Englishman their not very average, oil industry guys working in Scotland, I wear my heart on my sleeve so everyone knows I’m a Yesser but the English colleagues still think I’m the exception.
It’s not just the railway that you’re paying for twenty14, it’s a whole new sewer system and the old favourite HS2 as well. Oh and don’t forget when Cameron gets his way, not that he’ll admit to wanting this, you’ll also be paying for Heathrow’s third runway.
Of course you haven’t forgotten how we all enjoyed paying for the LONDON Olympics have you?
@ memaw – nae sure aboot the rev’s new rules, but pretty damn sure the answer is go, no jam tomorrow, the banshees will agree.
Thanks Call me Dave and Kara. I found the comment I was talking about and it was from MochaChoca. Details of which are below. A link would be good though.
“The most recent figures show that Scotland has 373,400 of the 4,657,000 (full time equivalent) public sector workers in the UK.
That’s 8.02%, compared to 8.35% population share.
An equal population share of public sector workers in Scotland would require an increase of 15,460 (full time equivalent) jobs.
Compound this with public sector earnings in Scotland being 3.16% below UK average, means we could afford a 3.16% higher staff headcount, equating to a further 11,340 (full time equivalent) jobs.
Overall this means Scotland can currently afford a potential 26,800 additional (full time equivalent) public sector jobs.
That’s based on current on our on-shore tax take being roughly in line with UK average (which it is) and therefore completely excludes North Sea revenues.”
I’ll raise your ‘bra’ with ‘spoat’
Early Ball
Lamont could have done with your help at the pre meeting before FMQ’s.
Good luck with your mission to get that NO to YES.
“Chic McGregor says:
17 January, 2014 at 12:34 am
I’ll raise your ‘bra’ with ‘spoat’”
I consider myself thick skinned but…. seriously?? And there are Scots who claim we are “Better Together” with these people?
See Severin’s piece in the Guardian – Independent Scotland could get special EU deal, says Foreign Office.
“In a softening of its stance on Scottish membership of the EU, a Foreign Office study being released on Friday by William Hague, the foreign secretary, will confirm that Holyrood could still keep sterling and the UK’s existing opt-outs on borders and social policy.”
Also BBC Scotland website – Scottish Independence: MSPs begin Scrutinising post ‘yes’ EU plans.
“Dr Dardanelli, lecturer in comparative politics at Kent University, said: “I personally find the reframing of membership not unreasonable as a scenario, because it would be very problematic to expel Scotland following independence.”
Cochrane in the Telegraph.
He is not pleased that Ruthless was shown the ‘yellow card’ at FMQ’s. The comments are worth a glance.
link to archive.is
The British state really is just an organised crime syndicate with Royal Assent. Just a bunch of robber barons.
I’ve been on the Telegraph the last couple of days, and got the impression that independence supporters are seen as ungrateful and unpatriotic lunatics who want to run off with England’s silverware. Ah well.
If Scottish independence supporters are seen by the ‘followers’ of the likes of Cochrane as being ungrateful and unpatriotic lunatics wanting to run off with England’s silverware CameronB then just gently remind them that it is only being taken as payment in kind for all of the Scottish silverware they have stolen from Scotland over the centuries! 🙂
“Nevertheless, the orders of magnitude are sufficient to show that Scotland would have more cash on independence than under continued union.”
And there it is, ladies and gentlemen, right there!
The sight of SLAB MSPs cheering Lamont as she knowingly tried to stick a knife in the back of the Scottish people, with lies, damn lies and dodgy statistics. They are bordering on treason and the MSM & BBC are complicit in all this skulduggery.
Two things would end this BT farce:
If BT would stop lying and deceiving the Scottish people. No chance it’s all they have!
If the MSM & BBC told the truth openly and fairly, instead of misleading the population. No chance they are “mercenaries” payed for by ("Tractor" - Ed)s and gangsters.
In the event of a NO then the “fairness” of the referendum campaigns and the part played by MSM, BBC and HMG. Must be questioned in this free and democratic country.
WE ARE BEING SOLD DOWN THE RIVER BY THE MOTHER OF PARLIAMENTS.
Not for the first time do I give my thanks to Rev Stu and all who contribute . Without all the information that Wings provides I would sink into serious decline.
I hope the financial markets take note of Darlings rantings in Edinburgh last night, re “pound union dead in the water”
Unless Osborne has already given the financial markets “a guarantee ” in PRIVATE that the Scots would be most welcome in a sterling union.
If not I think we will see the pound under threat again until the situation is resolved! The financial markets will be looking for a GUARANTEE from HMG if they haven’t already got one. That’s my guess.
Darling is truly spineless and without any moral fibre. A SLUG in a snake skin!
memaw says
“Sorry for wrongly spelling your name. I must have been typing in my Kelvinside Glasgow accent!”
Is that the ones who say
“come away in you’ll have had you tea? 😉
The majority of people in the rest of th UK, when give the facts, figures and the history, completely understand why Scotland wants to go. In fact many want to get away from Westminster colossal, illegal mismanagement. No doubt when Scotland votes YES, it will make it easier from them to change their political status. If there was a UK Referendum the vote would be a resounding YES.
Westminster is corrupt, always has been and always will be. The birds are coming home to roost. Reap what you sow. Westminster contemptibles. Shysters and liars.
“Sorry for wrongly spelling your name. I must have been typing in my Kelvinside Glasgow accent!”
I remember years ago one of my kids coming in from school laughing their heads off ,and I asked what she was laughing at, she said her teacher was always affecting an upper class accent and when the kids were preparing to go home after school the teacher warned them to button up as “it’s chucking it down with wholestanes oot there”. 🙂
Oil revenues are a welcome bonus to an independent Scotland, and will certainly help greatly in the short term, as we find our feet. However, I do not believe that our future prosperity will depend on oil. We have so many other valuable assets.
Ironically, the UK is far more dependent on oil revenue than and independent Scotland will be. It is becoming painfully apparent that the rUK has far more to lose from the dissolution of the union than Scotland.
Ian Brotherhood says
“Anyway, as chance would have it, I saw the Darling/Brewer interview – painful stuff. It was like watching an old, defenceless badger being given electro-shock therapy.”
Wait until Nichola gets her hands on him and turns up the power that defenceless old badger will be turning on a spit 🙂
“The British state really is just an organised crime syndicate with Royal Assent. Just a bunch of robber barons” CameronB. Succinctly put.
The English Problem now is that they habitually lie about things, so when the off chance arises where they just might actually be truthful – no one will believe them.
It is impossible to do business with such folk.
shame he wasnt included in their latest badger cull.
Interesting wee piece in the Guardian by Severin (no comments).
link to theguardian.com
“In a softening of its stance on Scottish membership of the EU, a Foreign Office study being released on Friday by William Hague, the foreign secretary, will confirm that Holyrood could still keep sterling and the UK’s existing opt-outs on borders and social policy.”
Now that must have nipped to write that.
(Think I got the hang of this hash tag wossiname this time. Apologies for the second posting Rev.)
William Hague: breakfast this morning.
“Scotland will be outside the European Union if we vote for independence” So the world stops 19/9/14
“Would the EU want Scotland, long hard difficult and uncertain negotiations, and UK limited in any help it could provide” If we are that bad why the f*** does Engerland want Scotland as it’s “PAL” or maybe it’s serf. (Maybe that’s the answer) we are the last colony!
Hope one of our YES leaders rip this non event to bits it won’t take much. All smoke, mirrors and lies.
LOUISE MINCHIN Needs re education by BBC, she actually asked him some good questions but let him away with mumbling some p*** answers. I think it was through ignorance not by design.
HAGUE ANOTHER NON EVENT!
Just listened to Hague being interviewed on GMS
Frankly the guy IS an idiot
Either he is unaware that if Scotland votes Yes, then the UK as such comes to a shuddering end as the UK was created by Treaty and a Yes vote will effectively end that treaty. This is something that unionists like to play down, though some in the MSM are ‘leaking’ this reality, as have been caught stating the union will end and there will no longer be a UK!
So Hague , in order for his argument to hold water, continues this ‘UK will continue and Scotland will be cast adrift’ mantra. So either he is that stupid or he thinks we all zip up the back!
I think YES Scotland better take on extra staff to sign up the sudden influx of YES voters, caused by these clowns from Westminster continuing to come up to Scotland on their Project Fear day trips.
They just don’t get it, that Scotland has caught on to all this scaremongering a long time ago. That line of attack from the NO Campaign just doesn’t wash anymore.
They are cowards who hide behind the MSM and the BBC, shout abuse at Scotland then run back to England. And have the cheek to remind us that this referendum debate should be between Scotsand that non-Scots should stay out of the debate (i.e Salmond v Cameron).
Hey, do I get a prize if one of my comments here, comes up on page one of a web search? OK, it was quite a specific search. 🙂
Moaz al-Khatib call to de-list Al Nusra
See, Hague met Moaz al-Khatib (Syrian ‘president in weighting’), to offer his full support. Thing is, Moaz al-Khatib is demanding the US de-list Al Nusra as a terrorist organisation. Funny that.
Reuters quoted al-Khatib as saying:
BBC BREAKFAST.
BLAIR JENKINS: being questioned about William Hague diatribe earlier.
Blair played a blinder, a really excellent performance 100%
BBC will be getting a phone call from the establishment and a visit from the heavies for this performance.
THESE RECORDINGS WILL NEVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY AGAIN!
Havent got the hang of this yet. Reuters quoted al-Khatib as saying, was supposed to be a link. Hee is what they said.
MARRAKECH, Morocco, Dec 12 (Reuters) – The leader of Syria’s opposition coalition urged the United States on Wednesday to reconsider its decision to designate the militant Islamist Jabhat al-Nusra as a terrorist group, saying religion was a legitimate motive for Syrian rebels.
link to reuters.com
O/T
Hope you have all got your orders in for the newly launched “Team Scotland tartan” which will qbe worm by the Scottish Commonwealth Games Team.
link to bbc.co.uk
Re. Tartan. It’s that bloody magenta again. 🙂
@ Early Ball (and others)
Sorry, late to the party but here are sources for the public sector employment figures:
link to audit-scotland.gov.uk
(page 4)
link to ons.gov.uk
(page 3, second last paragraph)
These vary significantly from actual headcount (appear to be proportionally more part time workers in Scotland) but is far more accurate in terms calculating actual overall costs.
Devolution was only given to Scotland because of the COUNCIL of EUROPE.They sent a letter to the UK govt.in 1996 stating that there was a democratic deficit in the UK.and if this was not rectified possible sanctions may be applied.DEVOLUTION RESULTED?
@John king
at 7:39
Careful now, conflicting Kelvinside with Morningside could end you up in a load of trouble. 😉
What’s that old joke; guy from Govan working in the shipyard wins a trip on one of the big liners, as reward for all his service over the years. Takes his wife with him. Couple of days into cruise, wife is on deck having tea with other passengers, chattin’ away with a very well dressed posh woman with North Kelvinside accent, about weather and suchlike, the subject of their spouses work comes up, rather haughtily, posh woman says; ‘My husband works for Cunard’, wife retorts; ‘there’s nae need fur that kinda talk, ma husband works fuckin’ hard tae!’
You would think, on the basis of a split in the UK and Scotland/England defaulting to pre union status, then this would play into Westminsters hands on EU membership.
If Westminster really wants to leave the EU then surely it plays to their advantage here to also accept that it would also default back to that of an independent country. It would then have a valid argument for taking itself out of the EU, if it really wants to without the need for it’s EU referendum.
In terms of the union being dissolved into two “equal” parts why is it only one part has to renegotiate it’s EU membership, why is it that the same rules don’t apply to both “equal” parts?
I just don’t buy into all this successor state malarky. I beleive an independent England would have the same status as an Independent Scotland, in that the same rules on EU renegotiation should apply.
The presumption by Westminster that the continuing UK does not also become independent in the event of a Yes vote in Scotland is a shaky argument indeed.
Spoken to a few oil boys, from Glasgow to Newcastle, the weegies are undecided, asked for reasons to vote Yes, gave them some, immediately they mentioned the clout the UK has….I mentioned about what has happened to our industries, the UK didn’t do a good job of protecting scottish farming, scottish fishing….that swayed them to a Yes….gave them some websites to do some research…
As for the boys from Newcastle, they are very much in favour, they’ve been fk’d over by Westminster and asked to join us. Told them to move their perm address to here and they can vote.
Darling is shiting it about the poll’s? So he should, sometimes I think the vote will be a whitewash
“I remember years ago one of my kids coming in from school laughing their heads off ,and I asked what she was laughing at, she said her teacher was always affecting an upper class accent and when the kids were preparing to go home after school the teacher warned them to button up as “it’s chucking it down with wholestanes oot there”. ”
My wife, who is a physics teacher, once told me of how on her post grad year at teacher training college, they were lectured on the effect of using rp rather than a Scots accent. They were presented with data demonstrating how students assessments of teachers showed that when a teacher used rp, they were regarded as being more knowledgeable and authoritative than when they used their Scots.
That was many years ago. Don’t know how long that had been taught or whether it still is.
Interesting that there are no comments allowed on that Guardian article. Is it just me or does anyone else have the impression that there’s a shift under way? We have Darling last night doing his Mr Angry impression on the currency but strangely Newsnicht give him a doing instead of the usual obsequious boot licking then this morning the Guardian totally undermine him with this article. Simultaneously Hague lands in Scotland to lecture us.
Have the Tories decided the game is up and are now moving on to the negotiation phase?
@Roberto
Have you got a source for that letter?
@Angry Weegie
Isn’t this the letter that James Wilkie is always on about but nobody’s ever seen?
patronise /?pætr?na?z/
verb
1. treat with an apparent kindness which betrays a feeling of superiority.
I rest my case.
@ Chick McGregor – I went to teacher training in the late 90’s and nobody mentioned accents.
The kids are not stupid and they can see right through anyone who fakes an accent.
That’s when they wouldn’t take a teacher seriously.
They have more respect for you when you just be yourself.
Chalks it is interesting. The average political chat I have in Scotland is still with a unionist who thinks we will be worse off with independence. And it is the same in southern England. But a trip to Belfast or Geordieland reveals a different attitude, a ‘remember us when you waltz off with all the oil and leave us to London’s mercies’ frame of mind. It’s all anecdotal but there seems less doubt in our nearest neighbours in the viability of independence.
liz
Checked with the missus. I picked her up slightly wrong. They were shown how accent impacted perception but it was not specifically in the teacher to student context. It was just a generic point. It was also to advise teachers not to let their judgement of pupils be influenced by their accents.
BTW this was in the 80s.
Just watching the 10 o’clock news (BBC). “Little Englanders” have just realised that their country “may soon be two countries”. WHAT!!! It always was!