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An internal matter

Posted on December 26, 2020 by

WIDER YES MOVEMENT: Hey, why don’t some of you SNP guys come along to this event and have a friendly chat about how we can all achieve our common goal?

THE SNP: Get back in your box and mind your business, oiks.

Next year’s going to be bumpy, folks.

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    1. 26 12 20 11:57

      An internal matter | speymouth

    2. 26 12 20 19:49

      An internal matter – politics-99.com

    211 to “An internal matter”

    1. P says:

      Aye and we now know that the old NEC didn’t discuss independence, so I wonder who Peter’s discussing “internal party matters” with?

    2. Kate says:

      Peter Grant is my MP, have always vote for both him & his wife as councillors before he took our votes for granted & jumped aboard the WM bus…NO MORE, he too can GET TAE!!!!And that goes for ELEVEN voters in MY family alone..

    3. Republicofscotland says:

      Nope we won’t be discussing independence with you lot, because you lot actually want it. Our dear leader has been trying to suppress AUOB for years now, the jailing of Manni Singh really brought that home to roost. Sturgeon’s afraid of the AUOB and grassroots organisations like them, because she can’t control them.

    4. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ll just repeat some of what I posted on a previous page, in the early hours of this morning…

      The ways forward to gaining independence are “internal party matters???”

      Since 2014, my party has done NOTHING to advance the cause of Scottish independence – Nicola at ONE rally, organised by the National, coincidentally just prior to the 2019 General Election.

      The SNP, as an institution, may not be happy that it has been AUOB and the wider grassroots that have kept the indy pot simmering. That is their own fault.

      THEY could have kept the pot simmering but chose to neglect the struggle for independence, preferring “other” agendas, which, no doubt, will come back to haunt them.

      How can a nationalist, “pro-independence” party have got it so wrong over the past six years?

    5. Kevin Kennedy says:

      Labouresque level of arrogance and entitlement.

    6. Scottish independence: a private internal party matter. What a shining beacon of openness and democracy the SNP is!

    7. Muscleguy says:

      Notice to the SNP Independence is not your possession. We will discuss it and act up about it without your say so because we are fucking sovereign, get it?

    8. Jim Arnott says:

      @PeterGrantMP I din’t often swear but when the f?ck did independence become an internal party matter?

    9. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Internal party matter? Nope don’t think so mate.

      Disappointing response from the so called pro Independence Party.

    10. Helen Yates says:

      Well I have said for long enough that unless the election is a plebiscite that there is no way I will give my first vote to the SNP.
      @PeterGrantMP who happens to be my local MP has just convinced me that I am right in my decision.
      They are an utter waste of space and to be honest they have betrayed us even more than Labour, at least Labour never pretended to be for independence.

    11. NellG says:

      Since when did the SNP become the Independence movement? It’s looking more and more likely they will need to be bypassed. Vote SNP for another 5 years of procrastination while Scotland is milked dry and emasculated doesn’t sound like a great plan to me. I doubt ISP or an alternative will win enough on the list to force change unless Alex makes a comeback and leads the line. Time for a Mainstream Pro-Indy party? The sooner this is set up the better.

      Whatever happens this is probably years away now and I know who to blame.

    12. robertknight says:

      Sums it all up rather nicely.

      Vote for that shower?

      Hah!

    13. Effijy says:

      Well, you have to give Mr Grant Universal Credit fit that answer!

      He and SNP appear to be too good for the plebs they represent.
      Good Luck down at the Job Centre.

    14. ScotsRenewables says:

      The rhetoric is up to full speed:


      “Scotland did not vote for any of this and our position is clearer than ever,” Sturgeon said. “Scotland now has the right to choose its own future as an independent country and once more regain the benefits of EU membership.”

      My prediction for 2021 is that continuing grassroots pressure will ensure that the SNP will get back on track. Whether that is with or without Sturgeon is not so obvious.

      Stu has done a fantastic job in raising awareness. It has brought the inevitable trolls and fifth columnists out of the woodwork, but it’s all been worth it – the green shoots are there.

      Now we need a big name to lead the ISP, and for the other ‘pro-indy’ list parties to merge or disappear. I believe this will concentrate minds in the SNP wonderfully, in a way that ranting about the Christmas tree ornaments in Bute House will not.

      Eyes on the big picture, folks.

    15. Alf Baird says:

      The pampered bourgeoisie elite in the dominant National Party aye prefers to make its ain “accommodation with colonialism” (Fanon 1967). Hence, thus far and nae further shalt indy go!

      Which means Scots are now oppressed by two colonial governments, as we see with the SNP elite cabal’s oppressive laws and its scheming against indy ‘radicals’, all backed by the colonial administration(s).

    16. ScotsRenewables says:


      robertknight says:
      26 December, 2020 at 11:27 am
      Sums it all up rather nicely.

      Vote for that shower?

      Hah!

      There are still a lot of good people in the SNP

      It might be more helpful, robrttknight, if you could post your suggested alternatives. You are coming across a tad negative at the moment.

    17. Mike Fenwick says:

      125 days … only 125 days lie between 01-01-2021 and 06-05-2021.

      Party manifestos, whatever their content, will appear only towards the end of those 125 days. Until then the sovereign people – overall – will apparently have no part to play.

      After over 300 years it is long overdue that the people exercised their sovereignty, and that when they cast their votes on the 6th of May it is already established, through that very sovereignty,that those votes are given on that day, for no purpose other than to regain the independence of their country.

    18. A Person says:

      A bit of a stretch to call the country’s independence or lack thereof an “internal party matter” I’d have thought.

    19. Effijy says:

      To quote Ireland’s Mrs Brown-

      What do Priest’s and Peter Grant have in common?

      Their balls are only there for decoration.

    20. Bob Mack says:

      Bottom line here.

      Without us they are unemployed. We hire them to work for us, not the other way round.

    21. robertknight says:

      ScotsRenewables…

      Vote/join/donate to the ISP.

      Tell your elected SNP representative that if they don’t start producing the goods they were elected to deliver then they’ll not get your vote.

      It’s the only thing politicians understand!

    22. So we’re repeatedly told that “Yes isn’t about the SNP” but to have any chance of it we’ve got to vote for them? Nice wee number they’ve created for themselves with a captive electorate they can just repeatedly pull a bait-and-switch on.

      Can’t wait to see their contribution to the forthcoming Brexit deal debate.

    23. Ian says:

      ‘The SNP has reacted furiously to claims they used cash donations destined for an independence campaign to fight the general election.’ – The National 13 June 2017

      Openness or honesty isn’t really Sturgeon’s SNP thing. It’ll be interesting to see how the new Treasurer Douglas Chapman deals with the independence campaign ringfenced funds issue.

    24. Sharny Dubs says:

      The sheer arrogance of it!

      The independence movement has a mind and will of its own.

      What’s that old “Shining” quote…. “here’s Johnny!!”

      I think the SNP will find out just what we are all about.

    25. ScottieDog says:

      As a movement we simply have to campaign for Indy 2021, regardless of SNP official position. We need to drown them out and apply irresistible pressure. What else do we have to lose.

    26. Mc Duff says:

      The arrogance of this man is quite outstanding and I`m now sure it reflects the thoughts of the majority of the party. We, the people need to reclaim the torch of independence but how in heaven`s name do we do that.

    27. Jan cowan says:

      Dreary start to the day. Dark beyond 9am. So attended to the hens, exercised the dogs then came in drooked to sit in at the laptop….to find the above treachery. Talk about ANGRY!!!

      I’m with Muscleguy. I don’t trust myself to say more.

    28. Bob Mack says:

      It’sthe mindset isnt it ?

      We own it and we will discuss it at our convenience and kn our terms whilst you lot just follow on behind and do as you’re told.

      Nobody owns my sovereignty as a Scot. If you want to use it you talk to me first.

    29. Morgatron says:

      I like being an oik , they are moving further away from the SNP I joined 40 years ago and even further from the party I was happy to pound the streets for in 2014.

    30. Alf Baird says:

      Ian @ 11.40
      “It’ll be interesting to see how the new Treasurer Douglas Chapman deals with the independence campaign ringfenced funds issue.”

      Aa widna haud ma braith.

    31. Ottomanboi says:

      The Grand Council of THE PARTY?
      Leader and party fetishism, the apotheosis of dictatorship.
      Madame Murrell at the tiller and the ship heading for the brave New Social Order.
      What’s not like?
      Baaaah! the masses bleated in reply.

    32. Mike K. says:

      Stick a rainbow on it.

      NS won’t be able to stay away.

    33. 100%Yes says:

      On 07.05.21 lets see if Sturgeon writes and ask for a section 30 order and when she receives the reply, saying NO. What will be the excuse of the SNP leadership in not putting in place a Plan B and why have they wasted 5yrs and the only country to suffer because of poor leadership is Scotland. Independence isn’t about one person so lets not make it about Sturgeon.

    34. Francis Lynch says:

      So what do we do with an independence hierarchy that can’t be arsed with the independence side of things. They can’t argue more urgent matters like the plague once we’re all vaccinated.

      She can’t even pontificate over Brexit because The Blonde Buffoon HAS got it done, even though it’ll be the shittiest deal in the history of deals, it’s enough to keep the xenophobes making up the majority of English voters happy. The Tories will be in power for a generation.

      So what’s the plan B going to be Nicola?

    35. susanXX says:

      Sturgeon is a power mad control freak, that’s all that needs to be said. Step down Sturgeon and take your cabal of freaks with you!

    36. ScotsRenewables says:

      robertknight says:
      26 December, 2020 at 11:39 am
      ScotsRenewables…

      Vote/join/donate to the ISP.

      Tell your elected SNP representative that if they don’t start producing the goods they were elected to deliver then they’ll not get your vote.

      It’s the only thing politicians understand!

      Well said, a good, positive statement which many of us still in the SNP support wholeheartedly.

      More and more SNP members and voters realise our party has been losing the plot, and we are prepared to give our second vote to the ISP if they show signs of being electable.

      The ISP are however expecting their supporters to vote SNP on the constituency vote. Anything else threatens the pro-indy majority the ISP was set up to attain.

      There is no genuine alternative to giving the SNP one last chance in May by giving them our constituency vote – unless we want to do a Sampson and pull the whole structure down. That might be necessary in the future, but to do it now is a bit crazy, and most ISP members would, I believe, agree with me.

      Meanwhile, keep the pressure up on the SNP to behave themselves and do what we elect them to do, but let’s not alienate lots of ‘soft yes’ recent converts in the process.

    37. Derek Cameron says:

      If I knew who the entitled Peter Grant was he would not get my vote.

    38. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thank you but I prefer discussions about internal patters to respect democracy and support the rule-of-law.

      Cognitive Psychology and Optimal Government
      Design
      https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1533&context=facpub

    39. CameronB Brodie says:

      sorry….patters = party matters, oops.

    40. Willie says:

      Derek Cameron @12.12.
      I’m afraid Peter Grant has become one of ineffectual marking time at Westminster drawing a good salary, pension and expenses.

      The party is full of them. Crikey, look at Alyn Smith MP, out of Europe and dropped in as woke in chief placeman earning a Westminster wage.

    41. Saffron Robe says:

      You’re right Stuart, we’re in for a bumpy ride. Let’s just hope we can arrive at our destination or should that be desti(ny-as-a)nation!

      And I agree (not unusually it has to be said!) with Alf Baird. We are now being oppressed from within and without. At least identifying the problem is the first step towards a solution.

    42. Dan says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says: at 11:01 am

      How can a nationalist, “pro-independence” party have got it so wrong over the past six years?

      Suspect it’s down to the simple issue that generally politicians by nature of them requiring to be elected, look out for themselves and what advances their cause, rather than what the electorate actually want.
      Those in positions of power then consolidate their positions.

      Iron Law of Oligarchy.
      Read the following and see just how much resonates with where we find ourselves.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

      The centralisation of power within the Party has damaged it. I’m relatively new to the game but even in the relatively short time I have been involved I can clearly see the suppression of input from local branches, with the CAs an effective one way filter, restricting upward influence from the membership, whilst imposing the will and wont of the upper echelons.
      The branches around my way are barely quorate and have been emasculated with little to no new folk lasting more than a year before either leaving of their own volition or being pushed out.

    43. ScotsRenewables says:

      God to see Peter Grant getting utterly lambasted on Twitter for that comment. Hopefully a wake-up call for him.

    44. Willie says:

      Here Cameron B. Your best post yet. Five words.

      Keep it up Sir. Brevity!

      Otherwise a fine Boxing Day as we sally forth with our new found Britannic pride having achieved B Day against the Hun!

    45. Robert Hughes says:

      Cameron , may I make a humble suggestion ? I’m not among those who seem to lack the capacity to simply scroll-on when they see your name if they are bothered so much – though I have yet to open any of the links you post , it’s obvious you are an intelligent guy with interesting thoughts on a variety of subjects , so why not just write what YOU think , and dispense with cluttering threads with links which no one seems to open ?

    46. Denise says:

      The biggest obstacle to independence is the NS and to an extent the snp MPs who want to keep their cushy jobs. They want to be standing again for election in 2024.

      I think it is almost too late. NS will put out a anodyne manifesto and will string everyone alone for another 4 years with high poll numbers and promises of jam tomorrow.

      I don’t see any other outcome. I doubt if we will see independence this decade there needs to be a complete political cycle. The snp have to lose and reform as radical enough to gain Indy or another party has to replace the snp as the vehicle for Indy.

      So the sooner the snp lose and the sooner the new party gets established the sooner we are independent

      So I wouldn’t vote SNP at all.

    47. Mia says:

      Well, yes, of course it has now become an internal party matter.

      But it is not independence itself, nor even the campaigning for independence what is an internal party matter. Even the suggestion of that is laughable.

      What is now a serious internal party matter is

      a) to decide when enough is enough and how much of the SNP credibility and how many MSPs and cabinet ministers in the Sgov have to be sacrificed to protect Sturgeon’s arse until the plug is pulled on her and she is let drain down the tubes with a mess of her own doing that is dragging everybody else down and to a halt. Were this the tory party and she would have been moved away from the driving seat long ago.

      b) patience among SNP voters has run out and unless the SNP start to move their backsides towards independence and pronto, there will be carnage at the next Holyrood election and there will be left not much of a party to discuss internal matters anymore.

      I am sure I am not the only one who has had enough of Nicola Sturgeon’s posturing, enough of her vacuous lip service, enough of her government and MP’s deliberate incompetence, enough of her towing the line of Westminster, enough of the smearing of Mr Salmond that has happened under her premiership, enough of her 5 years’ lasting prevarication and enough of their obfuscating of the parliamentary inquiry to stop the damning evidence reaching the public eye and her arse being served back to her on a platter.

      Either the next Holyrood election is a plebiscite for independence and the SNP includes in its manifesto a mandate to end the union with a clear schedule of delivery, or my constituency vote goes elsewhere. My list vote is already going elsewhere.

      No more concessions. No more slack. No more indyref mandates. I don’t give a toss anymore about indyref. That horse has bolted the day Sturgeon sentenced it by her obsession with an S30.

      The SNP does not hold the copyright for Scotland’s independence, the monopoly in campaigning for independence, do not own our votes and most certainly do not get to dictate anything to voters. The voters are the ones who dictate by ejecting the wnkrs from the seats if they do not perform.

      No plebiscite on independence on next years’ Holyrood election?

      Then the SNP can get tae fuck.

    48. NellG says:

      What I don’t understand is the extent of Sturgeons power over everyone in the SNP. How did we allow a dictatorship to emerge in Scotland in the space of 5 years? Were we so lost after 2014 that we took our eyes off the ball surviving on blind faith alone that she would deliver Independence even though the warning signs were there from the start? I was never a fan of her style and thought she was weak and unqualified for the position but I did not see this farce coming.

      There is obviously a culture of fear at head quarters and we could do with a brave whistleblower to expose the extent of this. Is there anyone with the cajones left in the SNP to stand up and do the right thing?

    49. Effijy says:

      Look, Cameron is like a library.
      If you want to visit you can and it’s good that it’s there when you need
      More in depth information.

      You never throw away or abuse an asset.

      Much is beyond me Cameron but I appreciate what
      you provide and I know where your loyalty lies.

    50. Robert Hughes says:

      Mia . 100%

    51. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Instead of over-analyzing and fretting about the ISP, its obvious lack of profile and so forth, they’ll be getting my second pref.

    52. Wull says:

      If the SNP think all us Yessers are going to meekly give our vote to them in May then they best think again. They will have to earn it by proving they are serious about Independence. Being taken for granted by them really sucks. No way will my second vote be wasted on them.

    53. Robert Louis says:

      The arrogant self-entitlement within that comment from an SNP MP. My god, the whole lot of them, with the exception of JC and Angus MacNeil, do not deserve any support in future.

      I am utterly sick of this arrogant, high and mighty attitude from SNP Westminster MP’s. Ir is abundantly clear the whole lot of them regard themselves as better than us mere mortals who actually vote for them. They view independence (and its supporters) as beneath them, and certainly not worth risking their well-paid careers over.

      For this arrogance, for abandoning independence and for betraying Scotland and its people, so far as I am concerned the SNP, its oh-so-precious MP’s, and its utterly corrupt ‘toom-tabard’ leader, can all just go to hell in a handcart.

      We will have to take independence for ourselves, if we wait for the treacherous SNP, we will never get it.

      They have all become too cosy in their overpaid jobs. Too damn cosy by far.

    54. Robert Louis says:

      Mia at 1244pm,

      Brilliant post. Totally agree, especially with the last sentence.

    55. CameronB Brodie says:

      Willie
      My instinct is to keep things brief, but sometimes I feel the need to be a little descriptive, or simply give vent to my own internal psychology. I’m not expecting folk to connect with this stuff in any depth, I’m simply trying to broaden perspectives. As ‘our’ governments appear to be allergic to cognitive law and constitutional justice. 😉

      http://hrlr.law.columbia.edu/hrlr/scanning-for-justice-using-neuroscience-to-create-a-more-inclusive-legal-system/

    56. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Independence is coming – the English centre can no longer hold. The only question now is, when does it happen?

      The Tory (and Labour) strategists in London know this, their princioal consideration now is – for how much longer can we hold it off? I am sure they already have some of their brightest brains working on this.

      Give them enough time and they will implement something. They might: “in the national intereest,” prorogue Holyrood. However, this could only be a temporary solution, which will probably increase support for Independence.

      More-likely, probably, that they stall for as long as they can, then agree to a Referendum – but put-in the option of federalism – which they have no intention of turning into reality.

      But, they will lose, if they have their way, later rather than sooner.

      This will suit some at the top of the SNP, because, Independence will be the end of that party as a vehicle of government.

      The SNP might well win the first post-Independence election, however, shortly afterwards, the various factions will split and go their separate ways.

      It might look unlikely now, but, a truly-independent and genuinely Scottish Labour with a left of centre agenda, will garner support form those who have loaned their support to the SNP in order to win Independence.

      A right of centre Scottish conservative party (small c is deliberate there), minus the Unionist requirement, would win a good deal of support, but, the SNP would no longer be the expected party of government.

      Therefore, it suits the careerists within the party, to do as little as possible to promote Independence, which will bring about their demise.

      How we jolt them out of their complacency and their “I’m all right as we are Jack: mind set and back pushing really hard for Independence – that’s the movement’s big test.

    57. Alf Baird says:

      ScotsRenewables @ 12.12

      “There is no genuine alternative to giving the SNP one last chance in May by giving them our constituency vote”

      You are welcome to vote for a double layer of colonial oppression if you like, but remember you will be inflicting it on the rest of us too.

      And as for “let’s not alienate lots of ‘soft yes’ recent converts” that sounds pretty much like ‘wheesht for indy’ to me.

    58. Alec Lomax says:

      Robert Louis, how are you going to get independence without the SNP? The Alliance for Independence ? Excuse my laughter.

    59. Bob Mack says:

      Are politicians entitled? I’ll always remember the interview Robin Day had with John Knott during the Falklands war when Day mentioned the “here today,gone tomorrow” role of a politician.

      Knott stormed out of the interview, his pride dented, and his feathers rufgled by whzt was basically the truth. It hurt his ego.

      Yes, they do feel entitled

    60. Alf Baird says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 12.29

      For the SNP elite the term “patter” soonds aboot richt tae me, as in dodgy used car sales.

    61. Bob Mack says:

      @Alex Lomax,

      ” Graveyards are full of indispensable men” De Gaulle.

      Organisations have a similar shelf life to people who create them..

    62. Ottomanboi says:

      Fetch the faggots, stoke the fire, glad to be heretical.
      https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/26/the-year-the-ruling-class-got-woke/

      For the multiculturalist, white Anglo-Saxon Protestants are prohibited, Italians and Irish get a little respect, blacks are good, native Americans are even better. The further away we go, the more they deserve respect. This is a kind of inverted, patronising respect that puts everyone at a distance.” Slavoj Žižek
      Liberals believe that they own blacks – still. They believe they’re something proprietary about being black in this country, and if you deviate from the way they want you to think, in the way they want you to act, they grow violent.
      Candace Owens

    63. James Che. says:

      Your sovereignty is not owned by any government contrary to what others believe,
      Because you gave your vote to a political party?
      Utter tripe, we gave our vote to choose a party that would enact independence, this does not give your ‘claim of right’ to the Scottish government, you own that, every country votes mostly all over the world.
      This is separate from voting, and never have the Scottish people acted on it to date.
      The people’s sovereignty does not belong to the government devolved or other wise. And if you want to be as daft as a brush and say you have given yours away. More fool you.
      I would like to know how you did this, did you sign some official document. Did you write a letter to someone official in one of the governments, did you announce it all over Twitter, facebook or any other media,
      If you refuse to act on your sovereignty it lies DORMANT. you have not given it away. And if you vote for a political party, that is only in an election and the whole world has them.
      But only Scotland has a official claim of right wrote down in history.
      Use it or lose it.
      What’s needed is a discussion and method on how to get the Scottish people (a) recognise they have a right to chose whom governs them..(b) to gather the Scottish people together metaphorically in a simplistic manner quickly in which we can under the ‘claim of right’ withdraw our consent to being governed by the Scottish political parties in the Scottish devolved government or the Westminster political parties in Westminster.
      That simply eliminates all those whom have been ruling Scotland and its sovereign people in a abusive detrimental damaging method.
      But we need to discuss whom runs the country, Will we allow a genuine all inclusive people’s party, where everyone that is residing in Scotland, registered in Scotland and Paying taxes in Scotland is automatically in that party,
      We the people of Scotland have had enough of being ruled by a chosen few, that do not have our best interests at heart.
      If Iceland’s women were brave enough to imprison big bankers, where is our bravery? Perhaps the women will have to lead the men in this too
      With our claim of right, We can do this in a literary, we do not need to lift a finger or raise arms in any way or manner..
      At least discuss the option you have that no other country has, and if you combine this with the right to self determination, and human rights, the possibilities are there before it’s to late.
      Women have to feed there children . Women usually run the household, do the school runs, the shopping, and often do a full or part time job, If you find your bravery desserting you, stand aside and let the women lead.

    64. Republicofscotland says:

      Socrates MacSporran @12.59pm.

      Johnson will never agree to an independence referendum whilst the polls are in our favour, why would he, he’d be mad to do so, its not as if pressure will be put upon him from within the HoC, the millionaire knight of the realm and Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer also opposes it.

      Johnson also has a whopping 80 majority in the HoC any vote put to the test would easily be shotdown by his thumping majority.In anycase its not Westminster that matters it the sovereign people of Scotland that matters, what they think counts.

      Another thing I think that matters is international recognition, it can easily be shown that Johnson is being undemocratic in this field and that we’ve given him and May ample opportunity to grant the S30 which they’ve failed to do so, and by that default we should be able to go ahead and decide our own future via a plebiscite.

      The UK is now a third country in the eyes of the EU, and although they’ve agreed a very mediocre deal with England, (Scotland had no say in the deal) its entirely feasible that they’d look upon our request for international recognition favourably, on the get go that an independent Scotland would give the EU a good deal.

      Of course first we need an FM that actually wants Scottish independence.

    65. Robert Louis says:

      Alec Lomax at 04pm,

      Here’s the reality, you will NOT be getting independence WITH the SNP. Their is literally no point in voting for them. Oh, I’m sure NS will mutter comments about how she ‘thinks’ we need independence, or how she ‘would like to see’ a referendum soon, or how it would ‘be right’ to have indyref in 2021.

      Do you see the caveats? Or are you too blinded by the smoke and mirrors?

      If the SNP make the election in 2021 a vote on independence, they will get my support. NOTHING else will do. Of course it will not happen, the front cover of the manifesto will likely say something ridiculous like ‘stronger for Scotland’. Again.

      The SNP, the whine a lot, but do nothing party.

    66. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alf Baird
      They do appear to be a bunch of self-serving patter merchants, so that’s probably my internal psychology peeking out. 😉

    67. James Che. says:

      Your sovereignty is not owned by any government contrary to what others believe,
      Because you gave your vote to a political party?
      Utter tripe, we gave our vote to choose a party that would enact independence, this does not give your ‘claim of right’ to the Scottish government, you own that, every country votes mostly all over the world.
      This is separate from voting, and never have the Scottish people acted on it to date.
      The people’s sovereignty does not belong to the government devolved or other wise. And if you want to be as daft as a brush and say you have given yours away. More fool you.
      I would like to know how you did this, did you sign some official document. Did you write a letter to someone official in one of the governments, did you announce it all over Twitter, facebook or any other media,
      If you refuse to act on your sovereignty it lies DORMANT. you have not given it away. And if you vote for a political party, that is only in an election and the whole world has them.
      But only Scotland has a official claim of right wrote down in history.
      Use it or lose it.
      What’s needed is a discussion and method on how to get the Scottish people (a) recognise they have a right to chose whom governs them..(b) to gather the Scottish people together metaphorically in a simplistic manner quickly in which we can under the ‘claim of right’ withdraw our consent to being governed by the Scottish political parties in the Scottish devolved government or the Westminster political parties in Westminster.
      That simply eliminates all those whom have been ruling Scotland and its sovereign people in a abusive detrimental damaging method.
      But we need to discuss whom runs the country, Will we allow a genuine all inclusive people’s party, where everyone that is residing in Scotland, registered in Scotland and Paying taxes in Scotland is automatically in that party,
      We the people of Scotland have had enough of being ruled by a chosen few, that do not have our best interests at heart.
      If Iceland’s women were brave enough to imprison big bankers, where is our bravery? Perhaps the women will have to lead the men in this too
      With our claim of right, We can do this in a literary, we do not need to lift a finger or raise arms in any way or manner..
      At least discuss the option you have that no other country has, and if you combine this with the right to self determination, and human rights, the possibilities are there before it’s to late.
      Women have to feed there children . Women usually run the household, do the school runs, the shopping, and often do a full or part time job, If you find your bravery desserting you, stand aside and let the women lead. They are good organisers, and they know what’s best for their families first and foremost.

    68. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dan.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

      Yeah; that’s exactly what we’re seeing with the SNP.

    69. Bob Mack says:

      Well it’s at least an admission that Independence is deemed party policy rather than an ambition for the whole of Scotland. He got that right.

      He is saying it is their ticket to play the electorate as the party deems fit at any given time.

      Wanna bet? We made you and we can break you.

    70. Hugh Wallace says:

      Soon the only people voting for the SNP will be party members. Let me know how that goes, Mr Grant MP.

    71. Ronald Fraser says:

      If the AUOB are serious about having discussions with Sturgeon and the SNP, then all they need to do is stick a fluffy big Rainbow above their name.

      Nicola and her gang would be round like a shot.

      It seems the ONLY way to Nicola’s heart is to tell her how really really gay you are.

      I have nothing against the gay community, but when all your Rights are at the forefront of our only Independence Party, then we have to take a stand and tell you, Independence must come first, BEFORE ALL ELSE.

    72. CameronB Brodie says:

      Effijy
      Thank you. I do appreciate the irritation it causes when folk are talking about stuff you’ve no comprehension of, or interest in. This stuff is vital to open and accountable democracy though, so I’m afraid I’ve got to at least bring it to folks’ attention.

      The Influence of Legal Education on Moral
      Reasoning
      https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/217208173.pdf

    73. stonefree says:

      It goes without saying, Grant know IF Scotland is Independent, Him and chums are out of a very well paid Job,
      If one look at the MPs,I see only about 5 who would earn more not being an MP.
      Grant is there for the balance of 5 years, If he get to 10, treading water(working hard, as he would call it,damn I put an “r” in) his job is done.
      Keeping it under the blankets?……No point is even trying to question that one, Until some member come out the closet and comes clean It’s same shit different day

      I spent yesterday looking for an article on the blog, and I worked my way back to June 2019, and NEVER ONCE has Mr Campbell been wrong in his assessment, and predictions(so far)
      PS the article is Dugdale/Clegg or Foote and others on a junket to the USA

    74. Bob Mack says:

      @Ronald Fraser,

      Your not wel! up on Some issues are you?

    75. DaveL says:

      Independence redacted, no debate.
      Hey! Peter Grant could you point us in the direction of a tasty lump of rainbow shite to feast on, we’d be so grateful.

    76. Breathtaking, the rapidity with which so many SNP MPs and MSPs have devolved into elitist self-serving oinkers straight out of Animal Farm.

      Arguably, it took Scotch Labour decades to reach critical mass.

    77. kapelmeister says:

      At the top of Peter Grant’s Twitter he has “..elected 2015, 2017 & 2019.”

      The self-centred pompous ass.

    78. Beaker says:

      Is arrogance a key subject of the “SNP College”? Too many examples in the past couple of years. How many times has a prominent MP said or done something in public, then made to look like a idiot when it is clear they fucked up?

    79. @ Mia at 12.44pm: I entirely agree with your comment. And while it’s being said that there’s majority support for independence and that the SNP are likely to win the next Holyrood election, look what happened in 2016 when the best the SNP had to offer was the utterly vacuous slogan, ‘Stronger for Scotland’. Unimpressed supporters of independence simply stayed at home. Unless Sturgeon gets TF and there’s a drastic change of policy, that’s what’s going to happen again.

      Having said that, I think Sturgeon will be removed, voluntarily or otherwise. Lie upon lie, and the fact that she is at the centre of the conspiracy to frame Salmond on false charges, is now being exposed. Why obfuscate and delay in providing evidence to the inquiry if she and her acolytes have nothing to hide? They are clearly guilty. When this becomes mainstream knowledge, support for her will drop like a stone and there will be no way back.

    80. Polly says:

      It’s the curt, arrogant, totally dismissive tone that makes what Grant says so very much more offensive than even the sentiment of internal party matters being not for discussion to be shared with their voters. That has to stop. Any parliamentarian doing it should be excoriated and humiliated in every way we are able to manage it. They deserve it all and more.

    81. Cenchos says:

      SNP: Michty me, are you lot still waiting your independence? Tuts. Will the day efter tomorrow do? We’re ferr too middle-cless now to be bothering wi bunnet-wearers. Show us that enough of yous are middle-cless enough by flaunting your pronouns first, and then we might jist think on it. Dod aye.

    82. Daisy Walker says:

      I thought I’d take a look at ISP’s web site. like it.

      I have 3 concerns/questions however.

      Firstly – I don’t want fooled again. Holyrood Election in May is Plebiscite for Indy. Won’t give yet another party a ‘mandate’. So, as much as I like your mission statement, I want something definitive to vote for in May.

      Second – who will be standing in Perthshire North. No way Sweinney’s getting my vote ever again.

      With Covid restrictions, and media bias, your going to have to play to your strengths and that means credible local candidates, and they need to be as highly visible in their areas, as soon as possible.

      3rd, Start campaigning after the festive break. Get your Manifesto (wise to keep it short) up and running.

      The Brexit Party – forced the Conservatives to the right.

      And while in no way do I support or advocate right wing politics. In terms of tactics – the ISP needs to do the same for the cause of Indy. By which I mean, a single issue (plebiscite HE for Indy vote) ‘protest’ vote.

      Many keep saying, change the SNP from within. There is a limit to how effective that is. Outside pressure is also a thing.

      NS weathered the storm leading up to SNP conference. The NS/’not’ AS Enquiry – is so painfully protracted and complicated, and the media so ‘deliberately’ intent to look away… even if – at some point – she is found guilty, it will be way past May 2021, by which time her ‘leadership’ skills will have made the SNP an unelectable mess for some considerable time to come.

      Timing wise, just supposing there is a ‘smoking gun’ revelation in mid January, a month for it to build steam within the SNP /Yes movement – how long to get her ‘removed (if possible) what, maybe a month? That takes you to end of February. How long then to elect a new leader, with a new cabinet, and a new manifesto? Another month? End of March.

      That gives you one month to campaign on the new, with the media doing all it can to discredit, derail and most effective of all – ignore, the message and the candidates throughout.

      Unless, those in the know, about the full NS/AS conspiracy get that info out, unless legal action is taken against NS and co, re embezzlement of Indy funds. Unless there is (a very quick and effective) take over, then it looks grim.

    83. Dan says:

      @ BDtt

      I found it a rather accurate appraisal of the situation.
      However, one thing that is mentioned on that page is:
      This has to-date been dictated by the lack of technological means for large numbers of people to meet and debate.

      Well, with the internet we do now have the technological means to facilitate exerting a lot more influence than back in the day.
      At the risk of repeating myself again, a week or so back I made this point by highlighting the 4 recent relatively successful “flash campaigns” in the form of the MSP candidate selection process, NEC nominations, NEC voting result, and the Johann Lamont sex / gender wording amendment.
      I also noted the energy and commitment that achieved those outcomes appeared for some reason to have dissipated or wasn’t sustainable, as the foot was taken off the gas with regard to the recent Hate Crime bill vote.
      I thought those 4 examples proved that when individuals unify we do indeed have and can wield our power.

      LizG has been posting less lately, but she and I have previously used the term keeping reins on our politicians; but we need to remember that reins aren’t just used for stopping, they are also used for steering, so we should never let go of them or we may find ourselves being taken in directions we not wish to go.

    84. Hatuey says:

      One of the reasons Salmond was so despised by the British State, the reason they spent as much time and effort demonising him as they did Saddam and Gadaffi, is that he was genuinely committed to independence and Scotland’s interests.

      Salmond was encouraging and courteous towards the grassroots. His ire and energy was directed at those who opposed independence and they rightly feared him. Contrast that with what we have now.

      Sturgeon’s anger and power is aimed at those who support independence. At the same time, she couldn’t be more courteous and respectful towards British State power and its cohorts.

      The dynamics of all this are really simple. Salmond’s politics put Scottish people first and raised difficult questions about land ownership, oil, fish, resources, etc. Scotland is a wealthy country and yet the vast majority of its people are living in poverty and squalor. Salmond questioned that.

      Those difficult questions disappeared with Sturgeon. In actual fact, her sworn enemies are those that dwell on things like poverty, drug deaths, ordinary people, the grassroots, land reform, etc.

      These things matter.

      The British State couldn’t have asked for a more compliant partner in Scotland at such a critical moment. As the Brexit talks developed and Scotland’s resources were openly being used as bargaining chips, Sturgeon directed her fury and guns on Salmond and launched an attack on the very fabric of society with GRA – stuff that was bound to distract from those big difficult questions.

      Your kids and their kids will pay the price for all this. And the price remains what it has always been, more poverty, more squalor, more drug deaths, more unemployment, more misery.

      These are years I hope we live all live to forget but let us never forget the damage Sturgeon has done to the independence movement and her callous disregard for the prospects of the people here.

    85. Wendy says:

      Peter re-tweets arch-unionist and fire-botherer Muriel Gray. Enough said.

    86. BLMac says:

      Looking back on Scotland’s history, every time our independence was at stake, it wasn’t the appeasers, the vacillators, or the arse lickers who saved us.

      It was those who took the bold step.

      One that should have been taken 2 mandates ago…

    87. Alf Baird says:

      James Che @ 1.22

      Self-determination of ‘a people’ is rather more to do with the specific people concerned (as defined by culture, heritage, language, common suffering etc) and who consider themselves to be ‘a people’, than the place in which they happen to live.

      The assumption (and the SNP’s) that “everyone that is residing in Scotland, registered in Scotland and Paying taxes in Scotland is automatically” a Scot or that they desire or seek the self-determination of the Scottish ‘people’ and hence therefore a Scottish nationality and Scottish citizenship may be a rather confused perspective.

      Self-determination is not simply about who is elected to rule over the people, it is primarily about who the people are who do the electing.

      A highly unusual and non-reciprocal residence-based voter franchise adopted by Holyrood merely invites a great many ‘peoples’ who are not Scots (possibly now over one million voters) and who for the most part clearly have little interest in becoming ‘Scottish’ (by nationality or citizenship) to oppose and to block the right of Scots who do seek national self-determination.

      A residence-based franchise represents a loss of sovereignty, which is probably why no other country does it, aside from Scotland.

    88. SOG says:

      Well, 160 pp of links already. I guess that’s enough for a long weeekend, eh CBB?

    89. James Che. says:

      In 2011 David Cameron changed the heritedry process to the uk throne, it came into being in 2015,
      He did not only change that females could inherit the uk throne, but also whom they could marry,
      Legally this broke the treaty of the union Acts.
      As it is stated that this cannot be changed at all, the wording of the treaty of the union is very specific in what can be or not be amended and what is not allowed. Religion and whom the heirs apparent marry was not negotiable.
      That is just one of many times that England has broke the treaty of the union,
      so why do we, the people in (Scotland) hang onto the belief that things are as they were, when the treaty was signed.
      How tied up are we? How tied up do the Scottish people want to be, maybe we need to blame others all around us when we fail ourselves. We look for obstacles where there are none, we look for reasons to be tied to the treaty where there are none,
      We do not recognise our very own sovereignty.
      We do not recognise our liberal escape route that is fully legal,
      We actually put barriers and blockades in the way,
      We show fear that should we gain independence, we would not know how to go forward, or deal with it.
      We do not have to lead any physical battle, we have the legal right to choose whom governs us, that includes ourselves.
      We indicate by our inaction that Westminster has won Scotland and its people .
      we claim we can’t do anything by ourselves like children,
      there are many avenues open to us, but we apply the blinkers to ourselves, we will use any excuse we can find, including looking for heroes to lead the way forward.
      We are the heroes of our own destiny,
      We are the ones to make the changes.
      You will bow to the will of others because it suits you, and for no other reason.
      Get up off of your knees Scotland,

    90. holymacmoses says:

      This tweet amuses me:-)
      Kas
      @jamieson_k
      ·2h
      SNP are probably best not to be seen with auob who pay themselves retainers from donations

      ‘Pots and kettles’ comes to mind:-)

    91. Bob Mack says:

      So wbere are we under the SNP leadership over the last four years?

      Taken out of Europe against our will.

      No sign of a referendum.

      Internal Market Bill unchallenged in the Scottish legal system.

      More time than any other subject spent on court and lawyers and Government policy to blacken the reputation of Alex Salmond than was slent fighting against UK legislation.

      More time and mkney spent trying to derail Martin Keatings Peoples section 30 order.

      More legislation lroposed towards trans rights than towards Referendums.

      Hate Crime Bill nobody wants gets more discussion in Holyrood than Referendums.

      That is merely a sample.

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      SOG
      I’m not expecting to train folks in administrative law with a few btl comments. I’m only trying to point folks towards a rudimentary appreciation of how inclusive law works.

      Running head: TRANSFORMATIONAL LEADERSHIP AND VALUE CONGRUENCE
      http://mba.danielwatrous.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/leadership-values.pdf

      “Transformational leadership has become a very frequent focus for contemporary leadership research. Central to this leadership approach are morals, ethics and standards (Northouse, 2013). While initial research has focused more on intrinsic motivation, and follower development (Bass & Ronald E. Riggio. “Transformational Leadership. Mahwah, 2006), later research has explored the relationship between value congruence and transformational leadership.

      Values are considered on the part of the leader, the follower and the organization, including the various relationships between them. It is observed that the effectiveness of a leader and the satisfaction and commitment of his followers is dependent on the degree to which leader, follower and organizational values align, also
      referred to as value congruence.”

    93. Pixywine says:

      If the SNP are daft enough Togo to elections in May I have a feeling they will be gubbed. Not only are they criminal in their treatment of Alex Salmond but they show themselves as incompetent.

    94. James Che. says:

      In 2011 David Cameron changed the heritedry process to the uk throne, it came into being in 2015,
      He did not only change that females could inherit the uk throne, but also whom they could marry,
      Legally this broke the treaty of the union Acts.
      As it is stated that this cannot be changed at all, the wording of the treaty of the union is very specific in what can be or not be amended and what is not allowed. Religion and whom the heirs apparent marry was not negotiable.
      That is just one of many times that England has broke the treaty of the union,
      so why do we, the people in (Scotland) hang onto the belief that things are as they were, when the treaty was signed.
      How tied up are we? How tied up do the Scottish people want to be, maybe we need to blame others all around us when we fail ourselves. We look for obstacles where there are none, we look for reasons to be tied to the treaty where there are none,
      We do not recognise our very own sovereignty.
      We do not recognise our liberal escape route that is fully legal,
      We actually put barriers and blockades in the way,
      We show fear that should we gain independence, we would not know how to go forward, or deal with it.
      We do not have to lead any physical battle, we have the legal right to choose whom governs us, that includes ourselves.
      We indicate by our inaction that Westminster has won Scotland and its people .
      we claim we can’t do anything by ourselves like children,
      there are many avenues open to us, but we apply the blinkers to ourselves, we will use any excuse we can find, including looking for heroes to lead the way forward.
      We are the heroes of our own destiny,
      We are the ones to make the changes.
      You will bow to the will of others because it suits you, and for no other reason.
      Get up off of your knees Scotland,

      Sorry having to slightly alter or add on to my comments a second time as it never gets submitted otherwise
      ,I am beginning to think that I have hit the nail on the head with my sovereignty concept and certain trolls do not wish you to know your legal rights or the escape route open to you, whenever I have published on this subject it does not pass, this has happened most of this year, someone does not want your to know. So I presume your meant to stay in the dark.

    95. Dan says:

      @ Wendy

      Well seeing as you mentioned she of firestarter, twisted firestarter infamy…
      BoJo stating on January this year that there is no threat to Erasmus…

      https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1342781635272568832

    96. Alex Montrose says:

      SNP bad all the way, even on Boxing day, what a crock of shite.

    97. James Che. says:

      This commenting is frustrating, when I submit my comments, nothing goes through, I wait 20 minutes or more, then try again. It says I have already made that comment, but it does not appear in the comments then it says press back, I do this and still no appearance of my comments, the only way I can be successful is to add onto my commentary,
      Then both sets of commentary suddenly appear,
      So I apologise to everyone here for making more or less the same commentary twice, and hopefully you will be aware of this strange problem i am having in the future.

    98. Dan says:

      @ James Che

      Aye, it can be frustrating. I occasionally get problems like you are having.
      As you clearly put a bit of time and effort into writing your posts I’d recommend highlighting and copying the text before you press submit so you at least don’t lose your work.
      For some reason over the past few months I often find the Wings pages seem to start re-loading (but never completing) after a while which never occurred in the past.

      With your text safely saved you could refresh the page then paste it into the comment box and preview it before submitting.
      If the comment doesn’t appear you could try pressing Control F5 to force a page refresh. Or open a new tab and open the page there to see if your post appears before re-submitting again.
      I try that when having posting issues, but still occasionally get caught out and double post by accident.

    99. Ottomanboi says:

      Brit state has leap frogged over ‘poor’ India to become 5th ranking state in the economic universe.
      France is being warned to watch its rear as the Brexit Buccaneers are coming.
      What a joy to be living in such times!
      Mrs Murrell, rejoice! Without you etc.
      Do I smell fish too?

    100. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi James Che.

      Once you have clicked on ‘submit comment’, the page ‘sorta’ refreshes but you can’t see your submitted comment. Happens all the time.

      What works for me is to click on the browser’s ‘back’ button, wait for the page to settle, then refresh the page. Your comment should then show.

    101. holymacmoses says:


      James Che. says:
      26 December, 2020 at 2:51 pm
      In 2011 David Cameron changed the heritedry process to the uk throne, it came into being in 2015,
      He did not only change that females could inherit the uk throne, but also whom they could marry,
      Legally this broke the treaty of the union Acts.

      ARTICLE 2 OF THE ACT

      That the Succession to the Monarchy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and of the Dominions thereunto belonging after Her Most Sacred Majesty, and in default of Issue of Her Majesty be, remain and continue to the Most Excellent Princess Sophia Electoress and Dutchess Dowager of Hanover, and the Heirs of Her body, being Protestants, upon whom the Crown of England is settled by an Act of Parliament made in England in the twelth year of the Reign of His late Majesty King William the Third entituled An Act for the further Limitation of the Crown and better securing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject;

      And that all Papists and persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from and forever incapable to inherit possess or enjoy the Imperial Crown of Great Britain, and the Dominions thereunto belonging or any part thereof; And in every such case the Crown and Government shall from time to time descend to, and be enjoyed by such person being a Protestant as should have inherited and enjoyed the same, in case such Papists or person marrying a Papist was naturally dead, according to the provision for the Descent of the Crown of England, made by another Act of Parliament in England in the first year of the Reign of their late Majesties King William and Queen Mary entituled an Act declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject, and settling the Succession of the Crown.

      https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Act_of_Union_1707#Article_2_(succession_to_the_throne)

    102. PhilM says:

      Peter Grant’s dismissal is the authentic exclusionary voice of the ascendant Charlotte Street nationalists who intend to deliver a Charlotte Street Scotland which Robin McAlpine was talking about earlier this year (“Unite? Behind what exactly?”).
      Well we’ve been here before haven’t we? Wiser heads have given us the means to understand our current predicament so that we can do something about it.
      The new set text for the coming year is Animal Farm…four legs good, two legs bad equates to independence good, unionism bad…four legs good, two legs better is now independence good, diluted revolution better (that is as long as the country and the party are run by Mrs and Mr Napoleon). This is our predicament and those responsible for getting us here need to be confronted or we won’t stand a Snowball’s chance in hell of making an independent Scotland reflect the will of those who live here.

    103. Molly's Mum says:

      Some years ago, we had a community campaign to halt the building of an incinerator not far from our very rural area – the plans were dodgy, the H&S was dodgy, it was all very concerning and the locals got organised very quickly to oppose it

      Some of the committee went to speak to our local Labour MP, a certain George Foulkes, to seek his support in opposing the building of said incinerator. These were professional guys, with good technical knowledge and a solid understanding of the environmental harm this plan would have on the area. They explained the case to George and asked him to support the community in opposing the project and he said :

      “I don’t listen to what the community wants – I’ve been elected to represent this area. I will decide what’s best for my constituents” In other words, he’ll support what’s best for George Foulkes, not the folk who did or didn’t vote for him. Just what was best for him and stuff everyone else.

      Now, why when I read Mr Grant’s fine words do I suddenly picture Ol’ George grunting away at the trough ? Funny that.

    104. @ Alex Montrose at 3.13pm: The SNP is worse than bad: it’s utterly useless. But you’re certainly right about it being a crock of shite.

      Unless, of course, you don’t actually want Scotland to be independent. In the case, you’ll probably think the SNP is doing a grand job.

    105. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Mia 12 44
      Agreed!

    106. Fireproofjim says:

      James Che
      Those are improvements in the Treaty. OK they are technically breaches, but It’s not a principle that I would go to the stake for.

    107. velofello says:

      Johnson’s Xmas “gift” of a deal with the EU is surely an opportunity for Scotland?

      Nicola Sturgeon has stated clearly that the “deal” is unacceptable to Scotland. So, when the Westminster parliament meets to vote and then passes the “deal”, she as First Minister should instruct all SNP MPs to withdraw from Westminster.

      The reaction of the EU would be interesting, and reveal to us a truth on how we are regarded by the EU.There is no risk involved in withdrawal as we are hopelessly outnumbered and impotent at Westminster.The risk we face is delay –

      – revelations seeping out over the “Get Salmond” strategy damaging some SNP notables

      – waiting for a Holyrood election in May, which could opportunistically be postponed due to Covid.

      – the SNP do not declare the election to be a plebiscite for independence.

      And all the while leading up to a Holyrood election in May the UK government will be “cracking on with taking back control” of Scotland.

    108. Liz says:

      Daisy Walker says:
      26 December, 2020 at 2:00 pm

      ISP are standing on list only, so that won’t help with your constituency vote.
      The Brexit party worked for the ‘protest’ vote and numbers meant they were able to push Tories in direction they wanted. Doesn’t work so easily in Holyrood. SNP could get a majority simply in constituency seats in which case ISP and any other indy party will be severely limited in the power they can exert. The list system also means they are restricted in the nmber of seats they are likely to get.
      There are a number of constituency seats (where the SNP candidate is an unpopular choice)that would benefit from another indy candidate standing in oppostion to the SNP
      but ISP have said they’ll only stand on the list.
      Looks like my first vote will be wasted for the first time ever.
      I agree that it is likely too late to have a change of leadership within the SNP before May and am doubtful we can get them to change direction.

    109. Ian McCubbin says:

      No surprise, none of them come to any Yes or AUOB meetings, but they are happy to have us as foot soldiers.
      A former foot soldier now retired ???. I now watch and await these professionals taking the game to Johstons ‘team’ and beating them at their tricks. I may wait a while I fear, but so hope to be proved wrong.

    110. Scozzie says:

      Peter Grant MP – I hope the good people of Glenrothes vote you out at the next WM election. I say that, as I believe the woeful SNP will still not have moved an inch towards independence by the time the next WM election comes along.

      You and all your fellow MPs / MSPs bum warmers are an utter disgrace – with the exception of a few (Jo Cherry / Philippa Whitford, Kenny MacAskill). The rest – out your depth in a puddle!

      Independence? Not sure most of you can conjure up an independent thought in your own heads without NS approval, the party is so full acolytes. Hardly any MP / MSP even mentions independence except to belittle the independence movement.

      Just remember you need the voting public more than we need you. And we can hold you in the same contempt that you show the independence movement.

      You’ve all squandered the 2016 and 2019 mandates and for that you should never be forgiven. No better than red, yellow and blue Tories. Waste of space the lot of you!!!!

      It really is time for a true independence political party, the SNP have gone rogue!!!!!!

    111. Scozzie says:

      PS – Peter Grant you have a fucking brass neck to have the EU flag on your Twitter profile!!!!!

    112. Scozzie says:

      ‘We will give the Scottish people the right to hold a referendum if we are being taken out of Scotland against our will’ NS says in 2016.

      ‘We will give the Scottish people the right to hold a referendum when we know the terms of Brexit’ NS says in 2018.

      2020 – Brexit happens….here’s my book list and a pic of my Christmas tree – suck it up plebs! Janey Godley will come along soon to give you a chuckle and forget all the shite we’ve told you the last 4 years.
      How I wish it was Jonathan Pie doing a skit of this shower of shits.

    113. ebreah says:

      Re Scottish GE2021; to those intending ISP to got into parliament, it is imperative that you vote for SNP on the constituency (and ISP on the list). The general rule is that the more SNP wins constituency seats the less chances it will get a list seat.

      The issue with Scottish electoral system is that in order to distribute the list seat you need to know the numbers on constituency seats won by the parties first. For example, say SNP won all the 9 Glasgow seats and 100K votes on the list, and ISP won 10.5K on the list also. The list calculation for SNP will be 100K divided by [9 (seats won)+1]. The same is done for all parties standing in the election. So SNP votes be 10K and ISP will be 10.5K on the list. The calculation is done until all 7 list members are elected i.e seven rounds. After each round if any party wins a list seat, the divisor will increase so as to reflect the win.

      So the absolute minimum vote that a party has to get is 10K (in this scenario) in order to even stand a chance to win a list seat. It is reasonable to expect the unionist parties to get the list seats first because their votes are a lot bigger. I have a feeling that at the very least ISP can get via the last count ie the 7th seat in the case of Glasgow. However say SNP had only won 8 constituency seats, their votes will be divided by 9 (ie 8+1), becoming 11,1K votes. If so, SNP will edge ISP for the last list seat. This is why it is imperative to make sure SNP wins big on the constituency seats.

      This time you may be voting for the list but list seats are contingent to the constituency votes/seats won. It is always better to have 9 SNP MSPs rather than 8 SNPs and 1 Unionist MSP. With SNP you know the have to deliver independence no matter what. Even if SNP gets a majority on its own in the Parliament, 8-16 ISP MSPs creating havoc is something they rather not have.

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not actually particularly competent to train anyone in administrative law, but I can point folk towards some basic principles that underpin democratic accountability. Given Brexit though, these are principles that are denied to Scots.

      Running Head: MORAL CONVICTION
      In the Mind of the Perceiver: Psychological Implications of Moral Conviction
      leeds-faculty.colorado.edu/mcgrawp/PDF/Bauman.Skitka.PLM.pdf

    115. Beaker says:

      @Alex Montrose says:
      26 December, 2020 at 3:13 pm
      “SNP bad all the way, even on Boxing day, what a crock of shite.”

      What really fucks me off is when politicians forget that they are elected to serve everyone, but decide that they are above us.

      Some examples below. For clarity they are SNP as I’d fill ten pages if I included other parties.

      Mhairi Black and Flowjob – referring to her critics as “Jeremy Hunts”.
      Blackford – assuming that a photographer had travelled from England during lockdown, without checking that the guy fucking lived there.
      Peter Grant – see above article.
      Derek McKay – nuff said
      Margaret Ferrier – my MP – super spreader extraordinaire. Clare Haughey must be relishing the prospect of next May’s election.

      All of these – all of them – attract criticism to the SNP, which is then unfairly attributed to the independence movement as a whole. Independence is not and cannot be the sole property of the SNP. But like the Saltire, they think it is their property.

    116. Willie says:

      Liz@4.16
      All is most certainly not lost. Getting a majority of onztiyudncy seats is not a given even if the SNP overall constituency vote is over fifty percent. But such a constituency vote would all but deny the SNP even one more constituency seat.

      A second vote for the ISP would however guarantee a list haul of maybe 25 ISP seats and this would guarantee a super majority with the I ionists reduced to a rump.

      Even more excitingly, in maybe a couple of constituency seats a really high profile committed Indepence independent candidate could take out and displace an unpolular SNP candidate. Think hypothetically of a Salmond standing against a Sturgeon. The shot in the arm for the Independence movement would be enormous.

      So SNP 1 in all constituencies save maybe one or two high profile independent replacements and then possible half off the list to the ISP.

      That then would be an independence majority!

    117. Republicofscotland says:

      This falls in our favour, pity then our FM isn’t interested in independence.

      “THE UK will not be able to veto an independent Scotland rejoining the EU.

      The confirmation is provided in the full text of the treaty agreed by Boris Johnson’s government and Brussels, which has now been published in full.

      The 1246-page document, which is subject to the approval of MPs and MEPs, includes a passage about the possibility of new countries joining the EU.

      In Article FINPROV.10, “Future accessions to the [European] Union”, it states that the bloc will notify the UK of “any new request for accession of a third country to the Union”.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18970814.brexit-uk-will-not-veto-independent-scotland-rejoining-eu/

    118. Saffron Robe says:

      Personally, I think time is running out. Covid-19 hasn’t cancelled the climate crisis. Westminster wants to continue to plunder our resources for maximum profit and will continue to do so until there is nothing left to plunder. Without independence we cannot transform away from fossil fuels and towards a sustainable future. We are already at the point of climate change becoming irreversible if it is not already. Most worrying of all, politicians are either blind to the situation or too self-absorbed to care.

    119. Jeremy says:

      Re: the changes to the royal succession.

      There was also a Royal Marriages Act of 1772 which enacted some changes, although that was abolished in the process of the Act passed by Cameron’s government.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marriages_Act_1772

    120. Tannadice Boy says:

      It’s certainly going to be bumpy in January Stu. Another named person type situation coming up. Backbench SNP MSPs will be reeling. Petitions growing on babies under one being allowed to form a bubble in Scotland. Why?. Aside from the obvious reasons of mums helping their daughters with anatomical and emotional difficulties they are other reasons. Facial recognition is in important in the development of a baby. Grandparents need to be recognised within that crucial development period. How are they meant to provide childcare when mothers go back to work? Money and medical expertise beginning to back this campaign. Another own goal my oor Nicola. I know Independence is the super ordinate goal but we also need to protect our young people in the interim. I have been surprised how quickly this campaign is gaining legs. Doctors are on board. Of course I am a Grandparent to a new baby in our family. Never truck with the wife Nicola she is on a mission.

    121. Republicofscotland says:

      If only someone had thought of holding an indyref four years ago more like.

      https://twitter.com/PeterGrantMP/status/1341688514816188418

    122. twathater says:

      @ Mia 12.44pm I agree and echo your sentiments
      ———————————————-
      @ Dan I also posted on a previous thread the importance of a UNITED MASSIVE email posting to ALL SNP MP’S and MSP’S in relation to the Forensic Med Services Bill may have been effective and called for a continuation and upsurge of that MODEL , one poster stated that it was not so and that it was the TWATTER storm that had caused the vote to go through

      Irrespective of which one or if both combined caused the amendment success we HAVE to continue with that MODEL FORCE , IF we can get a worded declaration readied stating categorically that unless NS and the SNP publicly and openly state that the manifesto will be a plebiscite election that if the majority of seats are won by independence supporting parties that is an instruction by Sovereign Scots voters that the union is now dissolved and negotiations will commence on the disbursement of assets

      Unless and until NS makes this proclamation it is with regret that I cannot in good conscience vote for the SNP’S continued governance of Scotland

      According to indycar Gordon Ross he saw a poll which had in excess of 60% of voters wanting this option , HOWEVER we are at a crossroads where obviously NS and the SNP will have to be FORCED TO LISTEN AND ACT we have EVERYTHING TO LOSE

    123. Grouse Beater says:

      Spotting Grant’s remark held immediate significance, emblematic of SNP disdain for the rest of us. My reply to it is below.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      ‘End of Days’- https://wp.me/p4fd9j-pje

    124. CameronB Brodie says:

      Grouse Beater
      Merry Christmas. I’m afraid I only get “page not found”.

    125. Xaracen says:

      “Those are improvements in the Treaty. OK they are technically breaches, but It’s not a principle that I would go to the stake for.”

      Neither would I in that instance, but what about the principle that amending the terms (articles) of a treaty needs to be negotiated and agreed with the other signatories first? Letting them off with it sets a precedent that Westminster alone can amend the Treaty of Union and that Scotland has no right to be consulted over any such changes, and that is clearly unacceptable. But arguably, as a corollary, it would suggest that Scotland is equally entitled to make such amendments unilaterally itself. I am quite sure Westminster would strenuously object to that interpretation, though.

      In actuality, Westminster’s sovereignty rests on the sole tenet that if it gets away with it then it was entitled to do it, and may therefore do something similar again.

    126. Terry says:

      @daisy Walker 2pm.

      Nailed it. Great strategy and advice for Indy and holyrood. Hope ISP and SNP pay attention. Looks like the future of independence and even the SNP relies on Nicola going ASAP. If enough of the snp hangers on cotton on to this that could sharpen minds.

    127. Bob Mack says:

      @Grouse Beater,

      Same here. Not Found

    128. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi ebreah and others.

      Back in the summer, I did the ‘wurky-outs’ for various permutations of SNP list votes transferring to a pro-indy party, using the figures from the 2016 Holyrood election.
      I only did the regions where the SNP won NO list seats.

      Summary of results…

      North East Scotland.

      2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
      Tories 4 MSPs
      Labour 2 MSPs
      Lib-Dem 1 MSP

      2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 3
      Labour – 2
      Pro-Indy – 1
      Lib-Dem – 1

      2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 3
      Pro-Indy – 2
      Labour – 1
      Lib-Dem – 1

      Mid Scotland and Fife.

      2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
      Tories 4 MSPs
      Labour 2 MSPs
      Green 1 MSP

      2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 4
      Labour – 2
      Pro-Indy – 1
      Lost 1 Green

      2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 3
      Pro-Indy – 2
      Labour – 2
      And we’ve lost 1 Tory and 1 Green.

      Central Scotland.

      2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
      Labour 4 MSPs
      Tories 3 MSPs

      2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Labour – 4
      Tories – 2
      Pro-Indy – 1
      And we’ve lost one Tory.

      2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Labour – 3
      Tories – 2
      Pro-Indy – 2
      And we’ve lost one Tory and 1 Labour.

      Glasgow.

      2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
      Labour 4 MSPs
      Tories 2 MSPs
      Greens 1 MSP

      2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Labour – 4 (n/c)
      Greens -1 (n/c)
      Tories – 1 (-1)
      Pro-Indy – 1 (+1)
      And we’ve lost one Tory.

      2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Labour – 3 (-1)
      Pro-Indy – 2 (+2)
      Greens -1 (n/c)
      Tories – 1 (-1)
      And we’ve lost one Tory and 1 Labour.

      Lothian.

      2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
      Tories 3 MSPs
      Labour 2 MSPs
      Green 2 MSP
      Lib-Dem – 0

      2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 3
      Labour – 2
      Green – 1
      Pro-Indy – 1
      Lib-Dem – 0
      Lost 1 Green.

      2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 2
      Pro-Indy – 2
      Labour – 2
      Greens -1
      Lib-Dem – 0
      And we’ve lost 1 Tory and, probably Andy Wightman (if he were still Green).

      West Scotland.

      2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
      Labour 3 MSPs
      Tories 3 MSPs
      Greens 1 MSP

      2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Labour – 3 (n/c)
      Tories – 3 (n/c)
      Pro-Indy – 1 (+1)
      Greens -0 (-1)
      And we’ve lost one Green.

      2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Labour – 3 (n/c)
      Pro-Indy – 2 (+2)
      Tories – 2 (-1)
      Greens – 0 (-1)
      And we’ve lost one Tory and 1 Green.

      Remember, these are hypothetical figures, based on the 2016 results. If you want to see how they were worked out, go to the link below (for NE Scotland) and scroll down for the other regions.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/quarantine/comment-page-3/#comment-2549419

    129. Davie Oga says:

      Scozzie says:
      26 December, 2020 at 4:55 pm
      “‘We will give the Scottish people the right to hold a referendum if we are being taken out of Scotland against our will’ NS says in 2016.

      ‘We will give the Scottish people the right to hold a referendum when we know the terms of Brexit’ NS says in 2018.”

      Let’s not forget 2017, when the delusional fuckers actually thought people didn’t bother to turn out and vote SNP because they went too hard on independence or 2019, ‘Independence referendum must happen next year’ says NS.

    130. Dan says:

      @ twathater at 6:22 pm

      Aye, it makes you wonder sometimes doesn’t it.
      The relative success of those 4 recent “flash campaigns” were just flukes and all down to some random statistical anomalies rather than anything to do with the unified and coordinated activism that they all had in common and driving them…

      As someone who builds and fixes stuff I’ve always been an advocate of the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle which is the most likely method to achieve desired results.
      Start getting into complex convoluted stuff when you need the engagement of many folk and inevitably folk will be confused or distracted to the point the focal point of our aim is lost in the haze.
      We have had plenty opportunity to witness what does and doesn’t work in our attempts to be heard and influence matters over the years.
      We know we are now more restricted in what we can do because of covid restrictions. FFS, the tools that yielded the best consistent returns are about the only ones we still have to hand and still folk can’t recognise this or won’t pick them up to use.

    131. Davie Oga says:

      An Independence referendum has “never been more important or more urgent”, says NS in
      2019. I just wished she added, “but I’m gonna do fuck all about it”, then we’d have known what was what a couple of years ago.

    132. Tannadice Boy says:

      I see Jim McLean has died aged 83. It wont mean anything to most people but to us Arabs he was an iconic figure. The best match, out of probably over ten thousand matches I have watched, was the five nil win over Borussia Muchengladbach (or a team of similar name because I can’t spell it on Boxing Day) at Tannadice. A beautiful game that was to watch. The sport at it’s best. Anyway back to Independence in January. I have a cunning plan.

    133. Derek says:

      No’ too bad a boxer either…

      Not far off; if you can’t write a “u” with umlauts, write “ue” instead, so Muenchengladbach. He was an ever-present during my busiest going-to-football time in the 80s and early 90s. He’d been ill a while, hadn’t he?

    134. Tartanpigsy says:

      I’m coming to the horrific thought that we might blow this completely because not enough people will be prepared to get outside their comfort zone to make Indy happen.
      We will really be a joke country if that comes to pass

    135. Duncan Clark says:

      So, in theory, if you were a serious SNP figure: Cherry, Whitford, Forbes, Russell (sorry, I remain a fanboy) and a few others, and you were to sit with the Yes movement and listen, you might be able to move on in the post Murrell landscape.

      Realistically, it will be the SNP who are our most likely mechanism to deliver independence, so if they read the room and stopped trying to suck up to landowners and newspapers, there’s a chance of progress. The SNP culture of making howling errors has to stop though.

      Starting with mutilating puppies, gender politics and hiring the weasel who facilitated the vow, it’s a long list of stupid mistakes that everyone else saw coming and were able to step away from.

      Might it be the case that if Ms Cherry was to work even closer with the grassroots of the movement, even writing here, she would consolidate her already formidable support to be the real successor to Alex Salmond?

    136. Ian Hart says:

      TB

      Sad news. Though not a tangerine, I still haven’t forgotten that win in the Nou Camp, what a night that was.

      Nor when Mr McLean put one on Jim Spence.

      RIP Jim.

    137. Mia says:

      “to those intending ISP to got into parliament, it is imperative that you vote for SNP on the constituency”

      The ISP will have my list vote.

      but if the SNP wants my constituency vote, they are going to have to pay for it. The price of my vote is a mandate to end the union with a schedule of delivery in their manifesto. Non negotiable.

    138. wull says:

      Hatuey @ 2.30 pm, I agree with what you say there.

    139. willie says:

      Just read the Hootsman and it seems Nicola is saying that the fisherman have had their promises broke.

      Oh really Nicola, 63% of Scots have had their mandate, their democratic mandate broken. There’s more to being out of the EU than a few wealthy fishing families.

      Fuck off ya wee fucking slag with pap like this. Sorry about the language, but there’s little else that would resonate with this piece of crap.

    140. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Derek 8 46
      Yeah he had been ill for a while, dementia Gods curse. However you spell it, that is my favourite match of all time. We have won the league at Dens and Cup Finals and I was there at all of them but that game was special. Luggy up the left wing terrorised them. A beautiful November frosty night. The English press in a tizzy about the high standard of football. A game for the purist. They were the days.

    141. ScotsRenewables says:


      willie says:
      26 December, 2020 at 9:15 pm

      Fuck off ya wee fucking slag with pap like this. Sorry about the language, but there’s little else that would resonate with this piece of crap.

      It’s not all mindless Sturgeon-haters who read this site, so consider toning it down a bit, it really isn’t necessary in order to get your point across. Maybe refrain from posting when you’ve been on the bevvy?

    142. robertknight says:

      Willie

      “Just read the Hootsman and it seems Nicola is saying that the fisherman have had their promises broke.”

      Aw, diddums…

      Serves the b****rds right for voting for it in the first place.

      No sympathy, nada, zip!

      I hope they’re dreaming of all those French consumers queueing up to buy their quality products, with Union Jack’s slapped all over the packaging…Merde pêche fraîche des Anglais.

    143. Beaker says:

      Re Jim McLean. Think it was Only An Excuse (or Chewin’ the Fat?) did a brilliant sketch based on his “discussion” with the reporter.

    144. Mist001 says:

      Why would the SNP discuss anything with AUOB? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, AUOB is a social organisation, not a political organisation and their (in)action proves that. What they’re trying to do here is dance with the big boys. I’m certainly no fan of Mrs.Murrell and the current SNP leadership but my response would have been exactly the same.

      BTW, I’m in France and use Google. If I type Wings Over Scotland into the search field, this site doesn’t show up. A week ago, it was the first result returned. I had to access this from a Facebook link provided by Google.

      Does Wings Over Scotland return for anyone else, or has it been removed from the search listings?

    145. Dislogical says:

      Shows up normally in a search here (Southern England)

    146. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Mist001

      ‘Wings over’ and she pops up for me

    147. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Beaker 9 44
      Yeah I saw that sketch. An unfortunate altercation, as was the appointment of his brother. Never mind their by the grace of God go I. Cast the first stone. Arabs are donating to a statue of Jim McLean. I don’t think I will be donating to a statue of Jonathan Watson anytime soon.

    148. ElGordo says:

      @willie says: at 9:15 pm

      “Fuck off ya wee fucking slag with pap like this. Sorry about the language, but there’s little else that would resonate with this piece of crap.”

      William by name, Willie by nature

      Wild guess that your dad was a Willie too and your mother knew her place..

    149. Derek says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      26 December, 2020 at 9:23

      “dementia Gods curse” I’m well aware of that one.

      “We have won the league at Dens” (sighs) Albert Kidd…

      “Luggy up the left wing terrorised them” He was great; socks round his ankles…

      They were the days… They were indeed; it was great watching United and Aberdeen putting the heebie-jeebies up the great and the good of European football.

    150. Robert graham says:

      If any of the SNP management are requiring requiring a internal no fkn problem , most of them would require a Ambulance if Indy ref 2 was called and the collective cry would be
      Aw Naw the games up it’s down the Job Centre then,
      I demand my Gold Plated Pension and benefits ,
      Nope you have been rumbled the suckers can’t be fooled any longer
      THE GAMES UP
      How Sad never mind

    151. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Sad that some commenters on here are a tad immature when it comes to discussion and debate.

      It’s not really ok to type the ‘streetspeak’ you use when bletherin’ with mates, complete with personal insults and so on, when the audience, who are reading the comments, are worldwide.

      Doesn’t sit well with commenters/lurkers who don’t indulge in the same ‘streetspeak’.

    152. ElGordo says:

      @brian

      Agreed, should probably post more up the city than doon the toon 🙂

    153. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      8=)

    154. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Derek 10 18
      They were the days of the New Firm. The rivalry between the two was strong. I surprised Stu let’s me comment on his blog. He has got be be an Aberdeen casual!. That’s a joke Stu.

    155. ElGordo says:

      Yep, those were the days, what a great united team, and manager.

      Paul Sturrock experimenting with revolutionary “calf” guards before the roma semi. Epic 2-0 win at home only to get cheated with a bribe to the ref in the second leg.

      Davie dodds – elephant man, and he just used to laugh it off.

      Always had a big soft spot for united, used to bring a great crowds, and have a big party on boxing day games at love street.

    156. ElGordo says:

      And of course, let us win the cup in 87 🙂

    157. Boaby says:

      Unless the HE is a plebiscite election the SNP for the first time ever will be losing 4 votes from our household. So sad but no one to blame but themselves. But we wont have a gun held to our heads, either vote snp or you get the yoons. Well so f…..g be it. You barstewards will have brought the house crashing down.

    158. Brian Cahill says:

      Taking our vote for granted is political suicide.

    159. Tannadice Boy says:

      @ElGordo 10 54
      I met Paul Sturrock outside Tesco a couple of years ago. He wasn’t good with Parkinson’s and although I had spoken to him a few times before he didn’t recognise me. Awkward! Anyway the referee bought a new house for his daughter. The Italian way.

    160. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      At the moment, I’m thinking I’ll likely vote for Joe Fitzpatrick but, between now and the May election, I’ll probably email him to clarify his position on genderwoowoo, the hate crime bill, PLAN B and how he sees the party as representatives of Yessers.

      My regional vote will be going elsewhere.

    161. Gfaetheblock says:

      Willie @9.15

      Express yourself as you like, but do remember the turnout was relatively low at 67%, so 42 % of the electorate wanted to stay in the EU, the majority wanted to Brexit (over a million Scottish votes) or didn’t care enough to vote.

    162. ScotsRenewables says:

      Boaby says:
      26 December, 2020 at 10:58 pm
      Unless the HE is a plebiscite election the SNP for the first time ever will be losing 4 votes from our household. So sad but no one to blame but themselves. But we wont have a gun held to our heads, either vote snp or you get the yoons. Well so f…..g be it. You barstewards will have brought the house crashing down.

      Except that is not true. Your logic is faulty. By refusing to vote it will be YOU who has ‘let the Yoons in’, not the SNP.

    163. Alf Baird says:

      4 days for Ian Blackford and his 81% Scotland majority to press the Scottish sovereignty button and ‘stop Scots being dragged out of the EU against our will’.

      Q: How many Scottish National Party majorities does it take for independence?

      A: As many as ye like, because they’ll never assert Scottish sovereignty onywey.

    164. Grouse Beater says:

      The platform I’m using for my long-form essays has imposed a new format, and worse, today it was unstable. I can see sa few typos butcannnotgain access to corrct them. And I am tired.

      Nevertheless, here is the link again:

      “End of days” https://wp.me/p4fd9j-pjm

    165. Boaby says:

      Scots renewables. NO, it will be the SNP by taking the p..s who has let the yoons in. I’d rather see holyrood abolished than those woke a….oles laughing at me having voted them in for another 5 years.

    166. Alf Baird says:

      ScotsRenewables @ 11.11

      Its now a toss up as to who is the most colonially oppressive – the ‘yoons’ or the SNP elite. Its also clear that neither are working towards Scotland’s independence. At least with the ‘yoons’ WYSIWYG.

    167. Derek says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      26 December, 2020 at 11:01 pm
      @ElGordo 10 54
      “I met Paul Sturrock outside Tesco a couple of years ago. He wasn’t good with Parkinson’s…”

      It doesn’t get any better; my dad had a combination of Parkys and dementia. He didn’t know if he’d had his tea or not, but “Dad, did you ever see Ian Ure playing for Arsenal?” (he was watching Spurs thenabouts) brought the instant response, “No, but I saw him playing for Scotland.” It’s odd, the separation of the present from the past in dementia cases.

    168. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon 11 08
      I am in a quandary about Joe. I have a hankering to vote for him on a personal basis. But my wife is up in arms about the babies under one job. It’s a no brainer our babies deserve the same treatment as in England. Joe needs to cut loose and state the obvious. At the moment I am voting for nobody.

    169. Fireproofjim says:

      Re the comments of Nicola Sturgeon about the bad deal the fishing industry got with Brexit.
      I agree with those who say the six millionaire fishing families that control 90% of the deep sea boats are not worth considering and got exactly what they voted for when they voted No.
      On the back of the loud voiced fishing lobby the Tories got four seats in the North East which are now at risk and a whole lot more people are now seeing Tory promises as worthless.
      It is therefore right to call out the Tories over fishing and can only increase the Yes vote. (When it comes)

    170. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Derek 11 29
      I know dementia is Gods curse. From my memory Ian Ure played for Dundee. A favourite player of my late Uncle a Dees fan. In Dundee the devision runs down families. But I had a great relationship with my Uncle. Arab or Dees we made up at the end of the day.

    171. Alf Baird says:

      Tannadice Boy @ 11.36

      Anybody who supports this FM and cabal, or is in the cabal, has to be seriously doubted.

      Unless of course they all finally decide to deliver at last and press the big Scottish sovereignty button on 31st Dec…..

    172. cynicalHighlander says:

      I won’t be blackmailed into voting for a party which believes ‘Freaky Fellas in Frocks’ can call themselves women under any circumstance.

    173. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tannadice Boy.

      Slater, Hamilton, Cox.
      Seith, Ure, Wishart.
      Smith, Penman, Cousin, Gilzean, Robertson. A EURO team.

      My Grandad was assistant Groundsman at Dens in the 60s.

    174. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ll also offer,
      McKay, Miller, Briggs…

      “I can’t sleep at night,
      Dossing and Persson…”

    175. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Alf Baird 11 44
      I am being doubted again. I will vote SNP 1 and 2 that will definitely kill Independence. I don’t support the FM or anyone in her cabal. If you knew the person in question you would hesitate not to vote for him. However..Let’s be clear I am not voting for anyone in May. So Alf are you going to support the babies under one campaign?. Or are English babies better than ours?. I look forward to see your signature on the petition

    176. Fireproofjim says:

      And at the same time there was only one Willie Miller and the other ten were no bad. The eighties were great for Scottish football.

    177. Derek says:

      Dad never saw Gilzean at Spurs; he’d passed his exams and was back up here by then.

    178. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon 12 04
      Dont forget Dubbitheid. Alias Tommy Traynor. When I started to watch United they played in black and white and there was a rich tradition of buying Scandinavian players. I remember Finn Dossing just!

    179. Derek says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      27 December, 2020 at 12:02 am
      Hi Tannadice Boy.

      Slater, Hamilton, Cox.
      Seith, Ure, Wishart.
      Smith, Penman, Cousin, Gilzean, Robertson. A EURO team.

      My Grandad was assistant Groundsman at Dens in the 60s.

      Craig Brown, too.

    180. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Derek 12 12
      Did Andy Penman not play for United as well. I am sure I am remember him playing for United.

    181. Beaker says:

      @Mist001 says:
      26 December, 2020 at 9:46 pm
      “Does Wings Over Scotland return for anyone else, or has it been removed from the search listings?”

      Just tried it and it is top of the results.

      Bing (which I don’t normally touch with a bargepole) gets the same.

    182. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Derek.

      Craig Brown was my gym teacher/footie coach at Macalpine Primary School around 1963/4. Somewhere, I have a pic of the Macalpine squad, featuring Craig Brown. I will find it…

    183. Hatuey says:

      All those people who still intend to vote SNP in May, even if there’s no change of leadership, what would it take for you to withdraw your support?

    184. CameronB Brodie says:

      BDT makes a very good point. Though we all think we communicate best using language that is natural to us, you’ll always upset someone in a cognitively diverse audience if you’re not careful about which language you use. I know this, and how important it is to natural rights, yet I don’t consider myself a legal scholar. So that means the Scottish judicial system is inept or bent.

      The Psychology of Morality: A Review and Analysis of Empirical Studies Published From 1940 Through 2017
      https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Psychology-of-Morality%3A-A-Review-and-Analysis-Ellemers-Toorn/f5638285b3033d4e6557300986035c67729fd1d1

    185. susanXX says:

      Well said cynicalhighlander @11:49pm.

      I too will not be voting for authoritarian, anti-science, reality denying candidates.

    186. boris says:

      He told the Jewish news: “I absolutely support the right of Israel to exist as a homeland. My only concern is that Zionism can mean slightly different things to different people, and… to some extent it has been weaponized. I wouldn’t read too much into that. I said it loud and clear — and meant it — that I support Zionism without qualification.” He also told the Jewish Chronicle: “If the definition of ‘Zionist’ is someone who believes in the state of Israel, in that sense I’m a Zionist.”

      https://caltonjock.com/2020/12/27/starmer-dont-call-me-keir-supreme-leader-will-do-check-his-record-up-to-2013/

    187. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. natural language and communicating in a manner that is unlikely to offend. Or break universal principles of law.

      Development and validation of the Japanese Moral Foundations Dictionary
      https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213343

      “The Moral Foundations Dictionary (MFD) is a useful tool for applying the conceptual framework developed in Moral Foundations Theory and quantifying the moral meanings implicated in the linguistic information people convey. However, the applicability of the MFD is limited because it is available only in English.

      Translated versions of the MFD are therefore needed to study morality across various cultures, including non-Western cultures. The contribution of this paper is two-fold. We developed the first Japanese version of the MFD (referred to as the J-MFD) using a semi-automated method – this serves as a reference when translating the MFD into other languages.

      We next tested the validity of the J-MFD by analyzing open-ended written texts about the situations that Japanese participants thought followed and violated the five moral foundations. We found that the J-MFD correctly categorized the Japanese participants’ descriptions into the corresponding moral foundations, and that the Moral Foundations Questionnaire (MFQ) scores correlated with the frequency of situations, of total words, and of J-MFD words in the participants’ descriptions for the Harm and Fairness foundations. The J-MFD can be used to study morality unique to the Japanese and also multicultural comparisons in moral behavior.”

    188. Camz says:

      Shoogly peg Peter. Shoogly peg.

    189. Graf Midgehunter says:

      mist001

      WOS turns up no problem in Germany – first nine entries are all various Wings sites or posts.

      Germany loves Wings.. 🙂

    190. ScotsRenewables says:

      Hatuey says:
      27 December, 2020 at 1:00 am
      All those people who still intend to vote SNP in May, even if there’s no change of leadership, what would it take for you to withdraw your support?

      A viable alternative, for starters. While there is the faintest possibility that the SNP will initiate action leading to independence then I’ll take that chance.

      Probably ISP for the 2nd vote.

    191. ScotsRenewables says:

      Scots renewables. NO, it will be the SNP by taking the p..s who has let the yoons in. I’d rather see holyrood abolished than those woke a….oles laughing at me having voted them in for another 5 years.

      Utter bollocks. Once Holyrood is gone any chance of independence is gone. I’m sure you are just deluded, but frankly. You come across as a bit of a Massey Ferguson.

    192. Beaker says:

      mist001

      Perhaps France is taking this ban on travel from the UK a bit too far… 🙂

      After all, there are some fuckwits out there who think you can catch COVID via 5G.

    193. twathater says:

      By Christ scotsrenewables if you don’t work for NS and the SNP you should , your continued bullying and name calling people who are frustrated and feeling betrayed by YOUR party and YOUR leader is abysmal.

      Most people on here and in other places really want to vote SNP (if they would only do the bloody job they were elected to do , INDEPENDENCE ) but YOUR continuous denigration and name calling of people who are SO disgusted by YOUR LEADER and YOUR PARTY isn’t convincing anyone

      How about you and the other reputed 100,000 members get your fingers out your arses and FORCE Sturgeon to resign or get on with the job of protecting Scotland , the SNP BOAST of having a big membership so what is that MEMBERSHIP doing to hold the PARTY TO ACCOUNT , are they threatening MASS withdrawal of memberships , are they threatening MASS withdrawing of funds , or are they just coming on here and elsewhere threatening people that to NOT vote for woke lunatics and oppressor’s of freedom of speech means the unionists will get in

      STOP BLAMING and blackmailing voters by threats of the bogey men , START THREATENING YOUR LEADER and PARTY with annihilation

    194. Iain More says:

      Derek says:
      27 December, 2020 at 12:12 am

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      27 December, 2020 at 12:02 am
      Hi Tannadice Boy.

      Slater, Hamilton, Cox.
      Seith, Ure, Wishart.
      Smith, Penman, Cousin, Gilzean, Robertson. A EURO team.

      My Grandad was assistant Groundsman at Dens in the 60s.

      Craig Brown, too.
      ========================================================

      I am old enough to have seen Ure, Penman and Gilzean playing. I am also old enough to have seen Charlie Cooke playing for Dundee as well. What a player he was. Another Scot making his way in the USA. How many more will have to emigrate from our shores as the English/Brit Red and Blue Tories will always try to keep us down.

    195. wull says:

      Just to say, there is a post at 12.49 which might look as if it comes from me, but it isn’t. This ‘Wull who is not me’ has a capital ‘W’. The ‘wull’ who is me has a small ‘w’. I think this is potentially or actually confusing, and would suggest that this new capital ‘W’ ‘Wull’ add something else to the name so as to make a clear distinction between us.

      I do not in fact disagree with what he says this time, although I would have expressed it differently. There might be other times when I do disagree with him, and no doubt when he disagrees with me. I did post a very brief comment which was, indeed, me. I would suggest that simply using the same name, but with a capital letter instead of a small letter at the beginning of it, is not a sufficient distinction.

      This is not a criticism of the ‘Wull’ poster; just a plea to keep the distinction between us clear, so that there will be no future confusion.

      Here is the one that was not me:

      Wull says:
      26 December, 2020 at 12:49 pm
      If the SNP think all us Yessers are going to meekly give our vote to them in May then they best think again. They will have to earn it by proving they are serious about Independence. Being taken for granted by them really sucks. No way will my second vote be wasted on them.

      Here is the one that was me:

      wull says:
      26 December, 2020 at 9:11 pm
      Hatuey @ 2.30 pm, I agree with what you say there.

    196. Hatuey says:

      Scotsrenewables: “ While there is the faintest possibility that the SNP will initiate action leading to independence then I’ll take that chance.”

      I don’t believe you mean that. You must attribute some value and weight to other factors such as the party’s moral character, integrity issues, political culture, etc. Presumably you wouldn’t vote for them if it turned out they were a bunch of cannibals.

      On the issue of independence, the possibility is faint. And you must worry that they are dangling that faint possibility in front of your eyes like a carrot in order to win your vote. And you must know that they’ve done that before, more than once, and that they had no serious plans to achieve independence when they did it before.

      I know you think what you’re doing is rational in relation to the goal of achieving independence. And I’m not out to insult you, you seem pretty smart to me. But you seem to award no rational value at all to the strategy of depriving the SNP of support in order to foster the sort of change we need, the sort of change that many here believe would be necessary if we are to achieve independence.

      I don’t discount the possibility that Sturgeon might succeed and bring about indyref2. I just think it’s extremely unlikely. If you agree and think a new leader with a new approach would be more likely to do so (and I assume you do), then your stance is even more perplexing.

    197. bittie45 says:

      Wondering if a section 30 is continually refused, whether the SNP would hold a referendum just before the climate summit in November. That would humiliate the presidency (i.e, Boris) and focus the world’s attention on Scotland’s ability to tackle climate change with its renewable resources.

    198. Alf Baird says:

      Hatuey @ 5.15

      In addition to serious doubts concerning the SNP elite’s true intent, the obvious lack of any plan for independence, their increasing propensity to introduce oppressive laws, and the persecution of indy ‘radicals’ as a second layer of colonial rule, there is another important factor when it comes to voting.

      That is, what do you think of the individual constituency candidates? None of the current SNP cohort standing again fill me with any enthusiasm, quite the opposite in fact. They have proved their uselessness on independence over and over again including their submission to the UK civil service line on a range of policy matters, not least the constitution. And I wouldn’t expect anything different from the new lads and lassies either.

    199. Stuart MacKay says:

      I think it’s time for an opinion poll to see how many people who just went from Tier 1 to Tier 4 are still going to vote for Nicola and her little helpers in May.

      My guess this is one lock-down too many and so the SNP is faced with two choices: ditch the leader or postpone the election. Only one has the chance of snatching success from the jaws of defeat.

    200. ScotsRenewables says:

      Hatuey, no matter how disturbing the disproportionate transgender influence in the SNP might be, the risk to Scots society at large is IMO both reversible and manageable, by us, in a way that the emasculation or closure of Holyrood is not.

      Personally, I would like to see Sturgeon gracefully fall on her sword in a way that does not cause too much damage and for Cherry take over. The one thing that would make me abandon all hope would be if that pompous idiot Robertson became leader.

      Twathater, are you having problems with your caps lock?

    201. Alf Baird says:

      Tannadice Boy @ 12.05

      I meant other MSP’s who support this FM as being ‘doubtful’, not you. Came out wrong!

      I saw Gilzean at Tynecastle in a Hearts-Tottenham Hotspur pre-season friendly around 1969-70. He was a very cultured and intelligent payer and would have enhanced any team. In a similar vein, one of the best and most influential Hearts player I ever saw was Sandy Jardine.

    202. robert Hughes says:

      Stuart Mackay – as a sceptic of the efficacy of mass Lockdowns , I agree the current one will damage the SNP Gov and possibly sway people’s voting intentions in May. Despite the daily onslaught of MSM ( uncontextualised , just one example , the massive difference between dying FROM C19 and dying WITH it is never stated , or if it is only in the ” small print ” ) death and infection recitations , the vast majority of people are not seeing family or friends around them dying , but are seeing increased depression , lonliness and untreated serious illnesses both of themselves and others , not to mention the serious damage to their livlihoods and , yes , freedoms

    203. PacMan says:

      From my understanding business funding for lock downs are reserved at Westminster solely because they hold the purse strings. The Scottish government wanted to pursue more restrictive procedures during the year but couldn’t because they couldn’t get the required money to support businesses during these restrictions.

      The only way Scotland can get the funding to do a proper lock down is when it follows the same type of restrictions in England. Therefore, it makes that when England goes into Lock down and the funds are made available to do this then Scotland does the same even though they are not required.

      I know Nicola Sturgeon is rightly not liked on this forum for her lack of interest in constitutional issues and stabbing Alex Salmond in the back but we need to be careful about putting the blame for the current lock down restrictions solely at her door. Lets not get fooled by Westminster’s shenanigans.

    204. Mist001 says:

      Google search in France still isn’t returning Wings Over Scotland for me. Plenty of links to get to this site but no direct link. It’s as if it’s been deleted from Google.

    205. PacMan says:

      The purpose of lock downs are to restrict the spread of virus and ideally suppressing it so it doesn’t flare up again or at least make it manageable so that further lock downs are not required, at least for a long period afterwards.

      The only way to do that is proper enforcement of restriction and aggressive track and testing procedures.

      This hasn’t been done in any part of the UK, even by the Scottish government. Therefore, the lock downs that we are under are ineffective simply because all we are doing is just keeping the medical system from being overwhelmed on a continual basis.

      The strategy seems to be just muddling through until mass vaccinations can be done and even that doesn’t mean that current health crisis is going to be over because it depends on the take up of the vaccination and how truly effective it is.

      As to the current lock down we are in, I can only speak from anecdotal evidence. In the run up to Christmas, I have had to go to the supermarket from often than usual and at different times due to work commitments. I have seen far too many not wearing masks, not observing social distancing and not even disinfecting hands and baskets/trollies. I suspect that a lot more people will not be observing lock down requirements as strictly as they had did in previous one.

    206. PacMan says:

      Mist001 says: 27 December, 2020 at 11:08 am

      Google search in France still isn’t returning Wings Over Scotland for me. Plenty of links to get to this site but no direct link. It’s as if it’s been deleted from Google.

      Is it not quicker just typing in the sites address or even dare I say bookmark it?

    207. Mist001 says:

      @ PacMan

      Yes it is, but I’m alerting a potential problem. It may just be local to my PC or ISP or it could be a bigger problem.

    208. robert Hughes says:

      PacMan . I don’t claim to have superior knowledge or insight on this issue but my views are based on reading the data and ploughing through many papers ( from reliable sources , inc one published in the Lancet ) casting serious doubt on the value of mask-wearing and the Lockdown dogma in general . I think you’re right though that Govs are muddling through until mass-vaccination is achieved ( therein lies another question , one I don’t wish to go into here ) , I’m not blaming NS in particular as she’s hardly alone in following the ” official ” guidelines , I’m just not convinced these guidelines are the most efficacious , I could , of course , be wrong , along with the growing number of scientists and experts in their fields who dissent from the prevailing narrative . I am surprised though at you seeing people in supermarkets etc not wearing masks , where I live , Barcelona , it’s mandatory and no one is permitted entry without a mask .Anyway , we both agree the sooner we can return to some kind of normality the better .

    209. CameronB Brodie says:

      Penman’s nephew was in my primary class and Jim McLean had plans for me to terrorise them up the wing, until he found out my kneeds were gubbed. Puberty and an early association with fags and booze might also have played a part in that coming to nothing though. 😉

      Here’s some thought on the law that I think strikes at the internal problems within the SNP, and the Scottish government. The source of the problem is whoever instructed ‘our’ civil service to abandon a gender-critical approach to law.

      WHAT THE LAW SHOULD (AND SHOULD NOT)
      LEARN FROM CHILD DEVELOPMENT RESEARCH
      https://law.hofstra.edu/pdf/academics/journals/lawreview/lrv_issues_v38n01_cc1.buss.final.pdf

      “Our legal tradition has always distinguished between children and adults and justified those distinctions in developmental terms. Only relatively recently, however, has that development been extensively studied by psychologists and still more recently, by neuroscientists.

      Conventional wisdom among children’s rights scholars holds that law should take account of this growing body of science and social science, and should assign rights and responsibilities that more accurately reflect the assessments of children’s capacities documented in the scientific research. In this Article I will argue that a more sophisticated understanding of child development counsels against an approach to children’s law that treats children’s capacities at certain ages as ascertainable and fixed.

      Instead, the law should recognize the contingent nature of children’s capacities and, as important, identities, and the role law inevitably plays in fostering or thwarting children’s growth.”

    210. Boaby says:

      Scotsrenewables 1.56am you come across as a bit of a wanker.

    211. Checks notes says:

      How did that go for Mr Grant? Joanna Cherry confirming that the neither the MP’s or NEC were even informed, let alone consulted, about the 11 point plan that will be forced on SNP members today. It’s a long way down from that high horse!



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