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Wings Over Scotland

All things are relative

Posted on June 30, 2016 by

Of the UK’s potential next Prime Ministers, Theresa May is the nice one.


We’ll just leave you to ponder that for a bit.














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872 to “All things are relative”

  1. call me dave says:

    Thanks for that.

    Yes it was a terrible time, so terrible that the royals and government officialdom were compelled to attend these tributes and ceremonies honouring the dead out of respect yes but with the pressure of public opinion too.

    All over the UK so many men were lost in local communities that a great number of woman remained spinsters simply because of the deficit of eligible men.

    Our head master at Hill of Beath primary school (Wee Wullie Clarke) introduced us to WW1 in our history lessons project about (1952?)

    The statistics, even to me then, and the information we found out were shocking . He told us stories about the conditions and hardships ( probably watered down for us) and on one occasion suddenly made his excuses and left the classroom.

    I sneaked out into the corridor for a look and found (saw) him sobbing in among the children’s jackets and coats area. He never saw me and I never mentioned it… I behaved a bit better in his lessons after that. 🙂

  2. Papadox says:

    Why do the unionists lie and cheat to try and frighten the scots into staying in a union which was born out of bullying, threats, intimidation and bribery. They keep telling us we are to weak, poor and stupid to survive and run our own wee country. We are dependant on ENGLISH charity to survive according to the Westminster establishment, HMG, EBC et al. Yet Westminster is desperate to balance its books. How stupid are they if this is truthful, what possible reason can they have for this stupidity and poor financial judgement? Maybe they are just good hearted souls, tell that to the Iraqis, afghans and the chago isle population who were removed from their homeland.
    Westminster is a cesspool inhabited by thugs and gangsters, with posh accents. Spiritual it is not.

  3. Brian Powell says:

    On Gardham going to the UK Government in Scotland Comms team, before, we knew they were putting out shite, now we’ll know who is writing it.

  4. heedtracker says:

    Feel the fear.

    With an annual payout of $15bn (£11bn), Shell is the biggest payer of dividends among UK companies.
    But some have questioned whether Shell can maintain that payout if oil prices remain low.
    In January, North Sea Brent Crude fell below $28 per barrel, the lowest level since 2003.

    Back in the day, it was Shell/Esso. A giant UK company, like BP, all built on their North Sea oil and gas foundation. Norway’s Statoil is nothing like as big either UK behemoth’s but they pay their work force much more, have much higher safety and working conditions and ofcourse, Norway’s got their giant state oil pension funds.

    All of BP and Shell’s success is down to the Snatcher Thatcher toryboys, then John Major and then Crash Gordo and Bomber Bliar red tories, incase youre wondering where NOT Scots oil and gas went.

    And now and once again, the tory BBC freak show uses what’s left of Scots oil and gas to terrify us. How frightfully British.

  5. Ruby says:

    I’m not 100% against the trolls because I think they can make useful stooges if you know what I mean. They can feed you your lines.

    Take Sensible for example he makes a great stooge he’s so good I have a pet name for him. I call him ‘Stoogie Woogie.’
    I see he has been making some very feeble attemps to wind people up but it would seem everyone has better fish to fry.

    I don’t know about Rock as he’s on my Catherine Cookson list.

  6. Ken500 says:

    Michael Gove just does not seem to realise his political career is over. No one likes a snitch. Totall non self awareness. Delusional. They have crash economy.

    There are questioned to be answered about the English education system. How dangerous psychopaths are buying Oxford 1st class degree with public money. Not worth the paper they are written on. Oxford is funded 200 to 1 of other Universities with public money. Regular inspections are required, for value for public money.

  7. Valerie says:

    Gove and May confirming they will not trigger the A50 this calendar year. Way to steady the flight of capital, and uncertainty.

    Poor Carney, begging for direction. That guy will abandon ship soon.

    Osborne says there will be no budget surplus in 2020 due to Brexit.

    Anyone remember what I said my personal theory was. Haha

  8. Almannysbunnet says:

    I take no credit for this, it came in and email and as I don’t have all your addresses I thought I’d share it here 🙂

    So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

    Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

    Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

  9. Carol says:

    yesindyref2 says@2.13

    Not sure what your point is but you may wish to know there was another poster called Carol too – at least one of your quotes are not mine. I give up on this site.

  10. Bill Hume says:

    I’m old and my memory is less than perfect, but when EU fishing quotas were allocated originaly were they not given to individual fishing boats. They were allowed to be traded (still are I think) and was it not the case that many of the vessels owners sold those quotas to e.g. Spanish owners?

    They then, of course, scrapped their boats.

  11. Petra says:

    @ Stoker says at 12:43 pm …. ”Image Is Everything.”

    I agree with much of what you have to say Stoker including that we should cut out the petty infighting and squabbling among ourselves, posting inappropriate material, swearing unnecessarily and attacking rather than challenging in a civilised manner and so on however I don’t really ‘get’ the following at all:

    ”As for Rock, there is absolutely nothing wrong with repeatedly posting your messages over and over again because any teacher will tell you that for any message to be successful repetition is vital. Also, there is a possibility of new members joining us on a daily basis and they have to learn those messages.’’

    So Rock has to get carte blanche to say what he likes on here, over and over again, and no one should counter what he has to say, Stoker? We’ve all to shut up and let him ”successfully” influence newcomers to the site … ‘’learn his (those ) messages?’’ What are his messages?

    To my mind he’s made a concerted effort to undermine the credibility of a number of decent people on this site and does his utmost at every turn to proffer his destructive, therefore non-constructive, advice; advice to the effect that if we actually followed it, would ensure we lose Indyref2. The list of such ‘his messages’ is endless in fact.

    I wouldn’t call him a troll at all. There’s another more insidious title that fits him perfectly and they’re usually found working in tandem with others / another on social media sites. Working to undermine the cause in question.

    And can I just mention Stoker that I’ve never been nasty towards you at all and yet not so long ago you attacked me on here in the most vehement of ways including using some extremely offensive (swearing) language. I know that I was totally shocked when I read your post and just wonder what newcomers to the site made of it.


    @ Carol says at 1:28 pm …. ”Although I visit this site nearly every day it is to read the articles – I rarely read the comments now. Too much swearing, attacking No voters (who may visit this site for information), blaming old people, insulting whole cities, etc. etc. I made a rare post criticising this last year and was immediately attacked by one of the regular posters – this is my first post since. For a group of people who want something so badly and failed in 2014 you would think they would learn from their mistakes…”

    Carol thanks for posting and I’m really sorry to hear that you were attacked for pointing out some of the failings of this site. I’ve experienced this too and just try to ignore it (as mentioned above), so please don’t let it put you off posting on here in future. I know I speak for the vast majority of people on here when I say that you are very welcome.

  12. Sassenach says:

    Dorothy Devine says:
    1 July, 2016 at 1:38 pm
    “What happens if gormless Gove gets the big job?”

    I don’t think he will even get to the ‘final two’, there will be many friends of Boris among the Tory MPs who will be deciding, and I suspect a co-ordinated vote to stop Gove will mean possibly the two women get through to the final.

  13. Stoker says:

    heedtracker wrote:
    “Stoker, not all YESers voters are sweetness and light.”

    Yes, Heedy, i more or less made that point in my post.

    Heedy also wrote:
    “Btl WoS reality is no different from real reality.

    Yes, but what ‘reality’ are you referring to? A considerable percentage of the Scottish population who are over 60 and although very aware of bad language etc are deeply offended by it when they read or hear it or are you talking about my type of reality where it is in common everyday use in the schemes etc? My point was that we all need to try and cultivate a environment acceptable to most if not all. Nobody expects everyone to turn into Ghandi or Mother Teresa but we all can improve ourselves.

    @ yesindyref2 – you wrote:
    “Hell’s bells and buckets of blood. Here’s Rock in five words:”
    “Be careful who you trust“

    See, i see that as a unfounded attack on another poster. You seem to be sewing the seed of doubt and therefore your own words could very well be applied to you, or just about anyone. I may be wrong but i’ve never seen Rock attacking you and many more people, especially newcomers, will see the exact same thing and it will make them weary. And just to repeat, i’m not here to defend Rock, he/she is more than capable of doing that for him/her self.

    Just out of interest, i would like to offer you a challenge which if you can’t be bothered accepting then that’s fine by me. Can you provide me with just one example which exposes Rock as a troll? One example where his/her post cannot be classed as retaliation? And you cannot use Grouse Beaters post at 11:09am this morning either – that doesn’t prove Rock is a troll, it merely proves that Rock was wrong and uneducated on that particular point. I set you this challenge because i’m genuinely curious to see what all of you are seeing and i’m missing.

  14. yesindyref2 says:

    My favourite stooge on Herald was OBE. Postings can’t be too long or nobody reads them, but sometimes you have a lot to say, a lot of detail.

    So make a reasonable size 3 or 4 paragraph posting and sure enough OBE would be along to allow you to add another bit. Then he’s be along again and lo and behold, another bit of the what would have been a two page posting.

    Yes, stooges are very useful.

  15. heedtracker says:

    Sassenach says:
    1 July, 2016 at 2:29 pm
    Having seen that the SNP were ‘dropped’ from BBC QT this week, and then the treatment of Tasmina by a boorish Andrew Neil, following it

    Both women were very good. Two women lefties v three toryboys, then it was Dr David Starkey who thinks that Cammers only place in history is Leave. And he thinks Scotland will be away soon.

    The ligger was interesting as he was very excited with his inside gen on future PM Mike Gove, Murdoch really wants Gove as his next man in No.10. Rupert thinks that because Gove’s an oik, unlike the establishment Cammers and BoJO, he’s the chosen one. Its all very exciting.

  16. Kevin Evans says:

    Just to stick my oar in – I like rock and his posts. I don’t agree with everything he writes but I do like his passion and to be honest from what I mostly see him posting is his compete distrust of the media and anything coming from a unionist mouth.

    But in saying that – a no voter changing to a yes is worth 2 votes and should be embraced and welcomed and not criticised or treated cynically.

  17. yesindyref2 says:

    I was trying to help you …

  18. Dr Jim says:

    Sky TV seems to think that if you’re born in Scotland that makes you Scottish or is it having a Scottish accent makes you Scottish or is it being white makes you Scottish

    They maybe should ask some of our Pakistani Scots or Indian Scots or Polish or Chinese or English and on and on

    Scots just are if they want to be whether they’re wearing a turban or a kilt, if they’re on Scotland’s side there’s no difference

    So see yer Michael Gove he Iznae Scots he’s one of them and them iznae us, “them” don’t deserve any Nationality

  19. yesindyref2 says:

    Ouch. Second time in minutes someone misunderstands the point of my posting. I’m off, things to do, people to see …

  20. galamcennalath says:

    Maybe I’m being naive. Maybe it’s wishful thinking. However ….

    If the polls in Scotland begin to show 60+% for Indy, if it’s obvious WM & UKOK no longer offer what we want, if people who were previously NO are speaking out for YES, and if the EU will welcome us ….. It would be time for WM and their front line soldiers in the form of the BBC to back off and take a neutral stance.

    Will they fight on to the bitter end, even beyond the point where it’s obvious the Union has expired?

    I feel these circumstances are going to be tested very soon.

  21. msean says:

    Everyone is welcome on wings,civility costs nothing.

  22. mike cassidy says:

    Some Oxford academics comment on the Brexit result.

    The first section has very interesting – and for this site very relevant – things to say about the internet and the EU referendum campaign.

    For example

    On the one hand, the main Leave camp message was much more intuitive and straightforward, which is particularly important for social media campaigning. On the other hand, their message was also highly emotionally charged, which facilitated the viral spread of Leave ideas. There is evidence to suggest that high arousal emotions such as anger and irritation spread faster than messages focusing on rational or economic arguments, particularly on social media

  23. Brian McHugh says:

    Almannysbunnet… 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
    Brilliant. LOL

  24. Stoker says:

    @ Petra:

    Yes, Petra, i included myself in my post, 2 or 3 times, and as i said we should all be taking a look at ourselves and amending our behaviour and approaches accordingly.

    No, i do not think Rock should get “carte blanche” to post whatever he/she wants without challenge. Quite the opposite actually. I made it very clear, if you think he/she is a troll then stop feeding the thing. If you don’t think he/she is a troll but are offended or annoyed at his/her persistent attacks on posters such as Peffers then say your piece and leave it at that, you don’t have to stoop to troll levels to do so.

    Note: If Rock is a troll then Rock is succeeding without trying too hard. No responses equals no arguments. Starve the troll and it eventually fades away.

    As for your reference to my recent attack on you there is nothing i can say in my defence. I was wrong and could have, should have, approached the subject in a completely different manner and i can only offer you my sincerest apologies. I’m not even going to attempt to justify my behaviour. I apologise!

  25. Carol says:


    I re-read your post and agree I misunderstood the point – I apologise.

  26. Grouse Beater says:

    Kevin Evans: “I like rock and his posts”

    Has he told you off for being an idiot holding views that don’t concur with his? That tends to have a bearing on attitude.

  27. Capella says:

    Chunky Mark gets philosophical. A bit darker and longer than usual, England’s philosophical suicide in 9 mins.

  28. Lochside says:

    A couple of random observations :watched Tasmina last night on Brillo’s show and although he interrupted her as per usual, I cannot believe she is touted as a future leader in WM.She does not seem very bright and was so repetitive about Brexit I turned her off.

    The Somme ‘celebrations’…yet another state led distraction aimed at glorifying England’s dead…conveniently writing out Scotland’s sacrifice as a matter of course.

    As soon as I heard it was in Thiepval, I knew I was right. ..following on from Phil the Greek and his meal ticket Lizzie flying visit to loyal Ulster to stiffen the troops, the next stop had to be the site of the Ulster’division greatest action. They like all the rest were butchered there.

    But that sacrifice has been politicized by Loyalists ever since into a blood sacrifice for the Queen and country. A strange and sad development as at the time not all the men were either Protestants or from only the 6 counties that were hacked out of Ireland in the partition settlement of 1921’22.

    So the Royals were there bolstering the present not mourning the past. I wonder if there will be a celebration for the Etaple bull ring mutiny when resting veteran Gordon Highlanders and Anzacs fought and killed bullying redcaps and had to be subjugated by English regiments..then courtmartialed…ringleaders shot and the rest shipped up the front to be slaughtered?

    Finally :I see Maurice Gardham has finally come out as the British agent we always knew he was..when will Glenn Campbell etching all join him?

  29. Les Wilson says:

    Gove has said, NO Scottish referendum. According to a newsline.

  30. Valerie says:

    @Stoker, you have also crossed swords with me, over my defence of the National. Whilst we might acknowledge it’s imperfections, my stance remains exactly the same.

    We need the National, and I have repeatedly asked folk to get behind it, or stop slagging it off at least.

    Besides sustained attack on Mr Peffers, on a daily basis, the other favourite subject is the National, for Rock.

    I said in my post last night, I have managed to read Rocks denigrating shit for 2 years, and scroll on.

    Personally, I’m sick of it, and because this is a renewed campaign coming up, let’s see if Rock can manage to write as if potential converts are reading it.

    Personally, I take the time to read all posts, only post new info, or introduce a new thought response.

    I have always ignored the obvious trolls, unless they address me personally.

  31. Kevin Evans says:

    No he hasn’t but then my posts are more a commentary or a question or sharing an idea rather than a conclusion.

    Play the ball not the man is a good way to always be on this forum I think.

    I like everyone’s posts and I’d miss everyone’s contribution.

  32. Dan Huil says:

    Gove is about as Scottish as Tony Blair.

  33. yesindyref2 says:


    In general terms – another thing! There was a poster on Grun in 2012 who quite early posted an 11 point long posting about what was needed for Indy for Scotland. So Indy supporters jumped on her and accused her of being a troll, quite nastily at times. As a result she became very anti-Indy supporteres – and anti-SNP to go with it.

    But every single one of her 11 points proved themselves to be valid, including the one that Independence is never won without a large Grassroots Indy movement which didn’t exist at the time. Well, we all know what happened with that one.

    So she wasn’t a “troll” at that stage, having been through Slovenia’s Indy attempts, Abiesalba knew her stuff. More than any of us did at that stage.

  34. Capella says:

    Paul Dacre and Rupert Murdoch choose next Tory leader. Not clear who they want to lead the Labour Party yet.
    Wonder what Morticia thinks of this news!

  35. Breeks says:

    @ Galamcennalath

    I can’t find it to link, but there was a recent comment about that which was pretty inciteful.

    It went along the lines of soldiers attacking an objective, where the will to kill or spare the defenders varied according to the distance at which the defenders stopped fighting. Defenders who surrendered and threw away there weapons in good time and didn’t cause unnecessary casualties were mostly spared, whereas those who fought to the bitter end caused more unnecessary casualties and were less likely to survive themselves. The concept was called the mercy distance.

    In the Scottish context, will the BBC and MSM bow to the inevitable and start thinking about life for them beyond Scottish independence, or will they stand by their guns and make sure the end when it comes is proverbially bitter?

    My own mercy distance for reforming No voters is pretty liberal and forgiving. Come one, come all.

    I confess I cannot say the same for the BBC. When I imagine a free and independent Scotland, the BBC isn’t in the picture.

  36. carjamtic says:

    7 Days That Changed Our World

    52% voted to leave the Eu
    Westminster loses all integrity,they have no plan.
    Those in power abandon their posts.
    Those in shadow power abandon their posts.


    Scotland’s people are asked to respond.

    Save Scotland,that is,All to be rescued,no exceptions.

    When you are faced with an unreal,ridiculous,absolute bloody disaster,you can do nothing,perhaps pray or cross your fingers,sit tight convince yourself ‘it will be alright’ or you can do something about it,play your part,we all felt the big boom,we all saw the smoke,we all bear witness to the events of the last 7 days,remember Scotland has never and will never abandon you.

    Welcome to,Mission Possible.

  37. Ken500 says:

    The Remain supporters, who are the majority in Britain, have been totally frozen out of any consideration. The state of Britsh ‘democacy’. It doesn’t exist. Typical Tories. Do as they say, not as they do. Totally self obsorbed nd unaware, Wasting £Billions of public money and sanctioning and starving the vulnerable to death.

    Totally despised by the vast majority in Britain. Trying to worry folk sick.

  38. Stoker says:

    @ Valerie:

    Yes, we have indeed crossed swords over The National and we both have conflicting opinions and that’s natural. We’ve said our piece on the subject but we don’t keep on at each others throats over it.

    Its been said on here more times than i can count, we are a broad church with many differing opinions. That is good and healthy and just how most of us want it, if we all sung from the same hymn sheet we’d be Unionists.

    And as i’ve stated clearly, there are matters on which i agree with Rock’s position and there are times when i just skip past Peffers posts, simply because i’ve already read and learned the lesson he’s about to dish out. However, i too don’t like to see the repeated same attacks on Peffers because not only are they painting us in a negative light, Peffers has as much right to post his repeated messages as his accuser does.

    The situation with Rock, as you know, stems way way back and i doubt very much anyone can put a finger on what started it.

    Time for all of us to focus on the battles ahead and getting ready!

  39. Ken500 says:

    Could people who want to swap differences please got to off Topic. Thanks.

    Cockoo in the nest Gove will never be PM. ‘Pycho bastards’ by their own admission. It was always on the cards Cameron would be stabbed in the back. Tories DNA, but so soon. Cameron brought it on himself. Never trust a Tory.

  40. Stoker says:

    yesindyref2 wrote:
    “@Stoker – Ouch. Second time in minutes someone misunderstands the point of my posting. I’m off, things to do, people to see …”

    Ah thought you were away? I was waiting on your return!
    You’ve bamboozled me! Clarify or forever torment me!
    The only other way i can take your 5 words is that you were informing us that those were Rocks mentality. Warning us that he/she was deliberately sowing the seeds of doubt with negativity. Have i got it right? If not then you’re going to have to educate me because i can’t work it out, getting tired!

  41. Ken500 says:

    Remember the indy VOW, that was not honoured. Gove just made another vow,, that will not be honoured. Never trust a Tory.

  42. cearc says:

    From the times :

    ‘The European Union’s next president has offered to help broker the divorce between Scotland and the rest of the UK should voters elect to dissolve the Union over disagreement on Brexit.

    Robert Fico, the prime minister of Slovakia, who is due to take over the EU’s rotating presidency on Monday, said his diplomats would help to negotiate an amicable separation modelled on the so-called velvet divorce that resulted in the break up of Czechoslovakia in 1993 if Scotland decides to leave the UK in order to stay in the EU.’

    “Slovaks and Czechs have a unique experience of peaceful separation…

    This is a very big difference re Indyref2. We will not be on our own separating from rUK. The EU will be very much involved as they devise our ‘transitional pen’ and negotiate Brexit at the same time.

  43. yesindyref2 says:

    I don’t mind Rock’s repeated message about being wary about the National or any controlled media. If it makes anyone think twice about anything they read, anywhere, then good. His personal attacks on Peffers, no, they should stop.

  44. Dr Ew says:

    For readers who may not know, Michael Gove is not only a native Aberdonian but cut his teeth as a journalist at the P&J. During a long running dispute in 1989 I lived almost across the road from their Lang Stracht offices, where a youthful Gove was a regular on the picket line in a struggle for trade union recognition at the paper.

    I was involved in fundraisers for the strikers and often stood with the pickets, including the skinny wee bespectacled lad then barely in his 20s (as I was – and skinny and bespectacled too). Chatty, witty and very, very bright I admit I was rather impressed by the young Gove. This guy has the makings of an MP, I thought – Labour, naturally.

    Then, one day, I was there when the pickets began discussing the then burning issue of the Poll Tax. I was completely taken aback by his position – essentially that it didn’t go far enough. Soon we were embroiled in a heated debate. His arguments were as disingenuous and intellectually contorted as you might expect – he professed himself a libertarian as I recall, and liked the idea of flat rate general taxation too – but again I have to confess to being impressed by his self-confidence and apparent fearlessness in advancing such a contrary view to a bunch of left-leaning strikers and sundry supporters (some very left-leaning indeed).

    I forgot all about him until I stumbled across his pawky gawky face on TV one night in 2003-4, vehemently defending the UK/US invasion of Iraq while still managing to score points and cast doubt on the integrity of Blair and Campbell and their manipulation of intelligence. Shit, I thought, he’s going to become a big deal in the Tory ranks. Subsequently discovering he was thick with Murdoch only confirmed this; Gove was ambituious and calculating enough to all the way.

    I don’t know if he’ll outwit Theresa May and win the Premiership but don’t bet against it. If he does win, Nicola should ready herself for an exhausting intellectual match because Gove will fight harder, longer and far more deviously to thwart Scotland’s hopes of independence. He’s a sleekit, arrogant, dishonest little swine but utterly ruthless – and smart as they come.

    (By coincidence I also knew Liam Fox very slightly at school in East Kilbride. However (1) he hasn’t a hope in hell of winning, and (2) Liam really, really doesn’t live up to his name.)

  45. Stoker says:

    Oanyhoo! I’m on the dinner bell, spag bol, so i’m out, for now!

    BTW @ Ronnie Anderson

  46. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Stoker Going back, its a persons scatter gun approach to all who disagree with their post, we are a broad collection of People of many political views & non who for the most part agree on the AIMS of this site A THORN IN THE SIDE OF THE CORPERATE MEDIA & PERSUTE OF INDEPENDENCE.

    Results of 19th Sept did,nt put us down, we Wingers grew stronger & a few Trolls wont stop what we all respect WOS.

  47. yesindyref2 says:

    @ Ken500 says: “Could people who want to swap differences please got to off Topic. Thanks.

    Reminds me of an idea I had the other night. We have off-topic but that’s more a place to relax, maybe have a blether, listen to some tunes.

    I suggest the “steam room” (not steamie), where people come to rip each other, call each other “arseholes”, generally let the steam blow out through the ears. It could be “by invitation”, and / or it could have a rota of willing volunteers to take the heat, don an asbestos suit, and let the needy do a good flame job.

    I was actually quite serious the other night when I said I’d prefer people to call me an “a” or a “c” or whatever, than attack previous NO voters, potential YES voters, or foreign dignitaries! I’d volunteer for the duty roster, good practice for trying to keep a cool head in the wild world of the open media.

  48. yesindyref2 says:

    Mahlzeit 🙂

  49. Robert Louis says:

    Les Wilson at 312pm,

    Gove can say what he likes, since whether Scotland holds another indy referendum is not up to Westminster. Of course they like to say it is, but that is just spin.

    In the cold light of day, when you think of what a referendum actually is, the notion of somebody needing ‘permission’ is frankly absurd.

    The Edinburgh agreement last time around was more out of political expediency than anything else. If Cameron had said no, we would still have held it.

    It is a sadly pathetic aspect of Westminster that it regularly likes to assert it has powers which it doesn’t.

  50. Chic McGregor says:

    Question is, will May when she is PM try to bury the referendum result? Her instincts are, I believe, deeply anti EU, however that may be a condition made by the hive.

    If she does become ‘Smother Theresa’ there is another question.

    Will the EU accept that or have they had enough?

    Why go through the considerable market disruption and the angst once, only to risk the same again in the not too distant future?

    Also, could they even make any further allowances for the UK or would that not just encourage similar, damaging, strop plays from other members? I think not, therefore no further special case pleading can produce anything from her negotiating, not even one slightly old water cannon.

    So I think this could bring into existence unprecedented expulsion moves, whether backed by emergency EU legislation or by an extraordinary general meeting of the 27.

  51. galamcennalath says:

    Breeks says:

    My own mercy distance for reforming No voters is pretty liberal and forgiving. Come one, come all.

    I see things much the same. Anyone who comes across and takes the Yes side is welcome.

    If they play their part in creating iScotland, the past is the past.

    In IndyRef1 we could not understand most NO voters. However, looking back, everything between now and then has changed out of all recognition. They made their choices then based on the way they saw things then. Now is a different world.

    It is especially important that previous NO politicians accept the changes and now come out for Yes. As many as possible. Complete backing from LibDems or Labour would be the icing. Some of them, mind you, might be difficult to believe on anything now.

    I confess I cannot say the same for the BBC. When I imagine a free and independent Scotland, the BBC isn’t in the picture.

    Certainly the news, current affairs, sports elements need totally thrown away. And with them most of the staff. There are people I never want to see on a TV screen again.

  52. Bob Mack says:

    @Chic McGregor,

    I agree entirely Chic. There is evidently no appetite to press the article 50 trigger. They are stalling for time till the economy begins to indicate leaving the EU would not be in the National interest, They can then sell an exit to the public ( with evidence) as being bad for everyone.

    The EU will not tolerate this and may well expel the UK .

    Only this morning Holland was voicing the dangers of delay.

  53. Effijy says:

    Les Wilson says:

    1 July, 2016 at 3:12 pm

    Gove has said, NO Scottish referendum. According to a newsline.

    I pasted a Statement below where Uriah Gove promises Scotland additional powers, on a Brexit vote?
    Hasn’t that Creep gone quite about this, now that he has Brexit?

    He was again challenged about the Battle Bus figure proposing to spend the EU contribution of £50 Millon per DAY.
    He now suggests that he will be giving the NHS an extra
    £100 Million per week by 2020.

    Now knowing that he is a Tory, is an English MP, and a compulsive and repulsive liar, we need to know that NHS Planned expenditure for 2015/16 is £116.574bn, which will be overspent, we can see that his “extra” £5.2 Billion per annum works out around 4.45% of an increase.

    So is if inflation averaged 1% per annum, up to 2020, and have no doubt inflation will drive up due to Brexit, then there is absolutely NO extra money for the NHS!!!!!!!!!!!

    The extra care for increasing numbers of elderly patients, requires additional doctors, Nurses, Porters, Cleaners, Managers, Clerks, wage rises, increasing fuel and energy costs, larger drugs bills, etc, all means that the NHS will be worse off in 2020, with Gove’s so called extras.

    That’s a whopper Mr Gove.
    Just the sort of trick that you have used at Indy Ref 1.

    Once bitten, twice shy!
    Never again you snivelling little Creep.

    Michael Gove-
    “Holyrood would be strengthened if we left the EU.”

    “The Scottish Parliament would have new powers over fishing, agriculture, over some social areas and potentially over immigration.”

    Please see Uriah Gove’s Song link below:

  54. galamcennalath says:

    “The European Union’s next President Robert Fico (Prime Minister of Slovakia), who will take over presidency of the EU on Monday, has offered to help broker a velvet divorce for Scotland from the rest of the UK if Scotland votes to become an independent nation.”

  55. call me dave says:

    Postal votes illegally opened early mishandled so it’s a rerun in Austria.

  56. Sunniva says:

    Michael Gove isn’t Scottish. He was born in Edinburgh to an unknown unmarried mother in the days before abortion was available and then adopted at four months old in Aberdeen. When he was a teenager he told his adoptive parents that when he grew up he was going to get the kind of job where you paid just to speak to him.

    I truly believe he is the devil’s spawn.

  57. Graf Midgehunter says:

    A lot of us here should remember, not everyone joined the SNP at birth. There are more than enough regular contributors here who used to be loyal labour supporters etc. who were first awakened and converted to the truth in the run-up to the SNP election victories and of course Indref1.

    If “we” have been through it then we should be the first to accept that others have also learnt from the experience of Indy1 and Brexit.

    Every one of the newly converted will also talk to and maybe bring others who are on the brink or not quite sure.

    Give them a chance and think smart.

  58. Ruby says:

    mike cassidy
    Very interesting post.

    Have you seen this:

    “Banks has been credited with professionalising Ukip’s referendum push through the Leave.EU campaign. He deployed senior executives and staff from his insurance companies and hired the Washington DC political campaign strategy firm Goddard Gunster on a multimillion-pound fee to sharpen its message.

    “It was taking an American-style media approach,” said Banks. “What they said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

    One video on the Leave.EU Facebook page, viewed 1.6m times, begins: “Are you concerned about the amount of crime committed in the UK by foreign criminals?” before ending with the message: “Isn’t it time to take back control.”

    “The Conservatives are now trying to rewrite the campaign that immigration wasn’t important, but boy was immigration important,” Banks said. “The first thing we did was poll everybody and we found that if immigration wasn’t the issue, the issue was schools or education, proxies for immigration. It was the number one issue by a country mile.”

  59. cearc says:

    Chic, Bob Mack,

    I think, the recent UN reports on Human Rights (lack of) in the UK would be sufficient grounds for expulsion under existing rules, without having to do anything exceptional.

    The EU do not seem to be giving any leeway in their position of out means out.

  60. ronnie anderson says:

    Gove’s in ah Cove and the tides coming in. Whit say you Mr Brotherhood on the bookies odds on T May’s election chances.

  61. Onwards says:

    galamcennalath says:
    1 July, 2016 at 4:33 pm

    “The European Union’s next President Robert Fico (Prime Minister of Slovakia), who will take over presidency of the EU on Monday, has offered to help broker a velvet divorce for Scotland from the rest of the UK if Scotland votes to become an independent nation.”

    I like the idea of a ‘velvet divorce’, but the Tories at Westminster won’t give up their colony so easily. We will likely only get a velvet divorce AFTER Scots vote for independence.

    It may not be possible for Scotland to remain in the EU as a devolved region, but if we were an EU nation state then we should also be able to keep a strong relationship or partnership with the rest of the UK. Maybe we could have a new UK that is similar to a mini-EU or like a Russian style “commonwealth of independent states”

    I would love to campaign for a second referendum using the slogan “the best of both worlds” 🙂

    If we kept the pound, or a Scottish pound pegged to sterling then we could do that.

    The ‘best of both worlds’, and ‘taking back control’… That will do nicely.

  62. Ruby says:

    cearc: Yes very different from IndyRef1 when EU membership formed a very large part of the NO campaign.

    Here’s the rest of the Times article. I don’t subscribe to the Times but I am able to read Times articles using my Edinburgh Library card.
    I’m supposing Eemain is a typo either on the part of the Times or Proqest or it might be something I have never heard of.

    “Slovaks and Czechs have a unique experience of peaceful separation and we are willing to share our experience with anyone who is interested,” he said.

    Scots voted 62 per cent to 38 per cent for Eemain in last week’s referendum, and Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister, has spoken of a second Scottish independence vote after the Leave win. Francois Hollande accused Britain’s Leave campaigners of lying to voters.

    The French president insisted that London would be stripped of its role as a clearing house for euro currency transactions and made clear that he would use Britain’s difficulties to scare voters away from backing Marine Le Pen and her anti-EU National Front in next spring’s presidential election. Talking to Les Echos, a business newspaper, he said: “Lies deceived the British people. It will be up to them to reach their conclusions about the leaders who fooled them. But their choice is irrevocable. Democracy must not be a poker game.”

    He rejected calls from Ms Le Pen and sections of Nicolas Sarkozy’s Republicans party for a French plebiscite. “Lies, simplifications, excesses and even the violence we saw … in Britain were not enough for those sorcerer’s apprentices,” Mr Hollande said.

    President Obama warned that the short-term economic turmoil gripping global markets could become longterm economic pain.

    Speaking at a summit of North American leaders, Mr Obama said: “I think there are some genuine longerterm concerns about global growth if in fact Brexit goes through and that freezes the possibilities of investment in Great Britain or in Europe as a whole.

    “At a time when global growth rates were weak already, this doesn’t help,” he added.

    PS I spotted a fair number of YES2 stickers when I was out and about today.

  63. Onwards says:

    The issue with the National was the amount of RISE/Green promotion as they sought sales from ALL indy supporters.

    Anyway, there is no room to manoeuver at a second indy ref. The choice will be YES or NO, and if the National is still around, they will be pushing for indy and will be a huge asset to have on our side in the propaganda war.

    I started buying it again after becoming a bit disillusioned with it during the Holyrood election. It is essential they survive if we have another opportunity soon. The paper version is more important to support – to keep pro-indy headlines in the shops.

  64. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dr ew 3.58 I too lived at the Langstracht for several years (opposite Summerhill Lodge) from Early 80’s till may 89 when I moved to BOD. small world.

    I knew a few folk at the P&J but can’t remember Gove thank Goodness.

  65. yesindyref2 says:

    I guess the earlier Indy Ref 2 is and returns a hopeful YES, and negotiations start for a velvet divorce, the more it overlaps with the rUK negotiating for EU exit terms and conditions for a velvet divorce from the EU …

  66. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @ronnie anderson –

    Odds-on bookies will offer prices on the oddest candidates.

    Not sure which is odder – Gove telling anyone who’ll listen all about his Scottish credentials, or May dressing-up as a Highland Scary Lady from Scooby-Doo…they could get thegither and do their own version of Outlander. (You can easily imagine him showing off his collection of Celtic brooches, then giving her one…)

  67. Tam Jardine says:

    Nothing going on in politics obvs.. back to troll discussions.

    Stu moderates and I am quite happy with that arrangement. C’mon team- there is much more important stuff to be dealt with right now.


    I have been enjoying your posts on here re exports, ports etc and would welcome an article on this subject if you can be bothered and have the time to submit something to Stu.

    For my own part I have been struggling to put something coherent together and events have made stuff I was going to post largely redundant. We no longer need look back to the 1980s to understand why we need to leave this union as soon as is possible. We need only look back a single week.

    I am no expert in anything particularly relevant to these discussions. Having spent the last 8 hours dicing up bits of bleedin carpet on my hands and knees I am not going to be asked to inform Nicola’s strategy anytime soon.

    That is not to say I am not acutely aware of the economic impact of these extraordinary changes to our position that are now in play. As someone grafting away in a small business that relies heavily on material produced partly in rUK, partly in the EU I know whatever happens there will be change.

    Importing outwith the EU is a complete pain in the arse and sending product outwith the EU is the same. Clearing companies appear to occupy a role the mafia played in Sicily. The single market makes things wonderfully easy whether it be within the UK or the EU. Time to choose.

    I personally have little objection with the Euro except fairly ridiculous aesthetic considerations. I have no objection with a separate Scottish currency if that is deemed best. Currency has been portrayed as THE issue when it is nothing of the sort. Its a change, sure- but everything is changing anyway.

    We are a country that exports great volumes of quality products and have nothing to fear from the future in terms of trade. We have been bombarded by figures of how reliant we are on trade with rUK for an age and the barrage is intensifying daily.

    And yet the central message of the Leave campaign was that we need to look to new markets and not rely on the EU- there is a whole world out there waiting to trade with us etc etc.

    Why can we not use that argument to our own advantage- there is a whole EU in close proximity- why rely on rUK for trade when we have some amazing products that can reach a European and global market place.

    Just imagine how we can motor once we have the equivalent of the Foreign Office working to push our world-class exports.

    Exports are what will drive us forward and cutting off the single market is what will strangle us.

    I happen to think that our single best export to date has been in our people, our young people striving for a better life outside our borders. I want our biggest export in the future to be the ideals the Scottish people have to offer the world: equality, democracy, environment responsibility, universality.

    We are a progressive, modern, excellent country and I would not swap my Scottish nationality for any other. The future we need to grasp is full of possibilities and the idea we will be dragged out, down with England makes me want to cry.

    Time to get behind our First Minister and work towards that future we owe our children and grandchildren. There has been great progress so far and the window is open but we have to grasp this opportunity with both hands as the window will not be open forever.

  68. Ruby says:

    Here’s something you wont see in the British press. I came across this because I was looking for article where Hollande said to the business paper Les Echo. ( Times article)

    “Lies deceived the British people.’ But their choice is irrevocable. Democracy must not be a poker game.” Original preview of article. It’s only 20% of the article so I’ll have to dig around to see if I can find the whole article.

    la presse britannique a échoué à combattre les mensonges politiques Google translation
    the British press failed to fight the political lies

    Does anyone remember the name of the lovely person who offered to translate from from French.

    I really need to know what
    ‘De la courbure des bananes aux bus à deux étages’ means. Google translate says ‘The curvature of bananas to the double-decker bus’

    Oh wait a minute I think I might get it.

    The British press failed to counteract the lies, everything from bendy bananas to messages on a double decker bus.

    What do you think?

  69. Thepnr says:

    Maybe like a lot of people who post on Wings now who were once lurkers. I too was a lurker and thought “Naw a bit too radical for me”. My opinion of Wings.

    That is the truth, I thought wow some of these people reside on the other end of the scale as far as my views are concerned. I made my first post, later I made another and before you knew it I would post regularly.

    This was over a year before the referendum vote mind, I became galvanised and wanted to do what I could in order to gain Independence. I had no party, I was a member on none so Wings became my party.

    I did as much as I could to raise the Wings profile, organising social events where we could discuss “face to face” meet real people with real points of view. I believed I helped get Independence Live up and running and did what I could in getting the Wee Blue Book into peoples hands.

    I do try my best to inform when I post on Wings in order to educate, I’ll admit that I can also let my lofty goals slip when being drawn into an argument. I have no problem whatsover when people disagree with my views and I might wish to debate my views with theirs.

    I have faults, just the same as you do. My passion can overrule my head at times and it’s the same for all those I might disagree with.

    Some of you will know this and some of you won’t but a poster on here once threatened to “hunt me down and cut me into pieces” if I called him a troll again. So I called him a TROLL!

    I don’t believe in backing down in the face of threats, I’m sure the Rev has had plenty more than me, can’t see him backing down either.

    Rock is a lone voice in many of his arguments and that is fine by me, he can deride the National, the Lawyers and the Judges. I don’t think though that he should get off Scot Free when deriding
    just another poster.

    Examples Robert Peffers repeated pish or Ian Brotherhoods hypocrisy. Or even his statement that I too am “attacking” him.

    Disagreeing does not equal attacking.

    One last thing, Rock likes to make a point of the hypocrisy of being a member of the SSP yet criticising the SNP. Should the SNP be immune to criticism? I think it’s best that no party should be immune to that. Keeps them on their toes.

    On Sept 19th 2014 I joined the SSP with the sole purpose of persuading those of a more left leaning persuasion to support Independence. It was work in progress, not everyone will embrace the SNP so it was deliberate and I believed worthwhile.

    Who you are, what you support, your party or your politics are secondary to gaining Independence. ALL are to be welcomed and that is where I come from.

  70. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood ah only asked a simple question ,an your turning it into ah Bodice ripping yarn,its ah tossup as to whitch wans wearing the Bodice cause ah think the pair of them are Fannies.

    An ah thought you only done syfi lol.

  71. stewartb says:

    There have been a few posts referring to the CEO of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation (SFF), Bertie Armstrong and the coverage he’s been getting in the media. Its interesting to look more closely at some of his earlier public statements for context.

    Firstly, extracts from an article in Fishing News in late 2015 ( ).

    According to this, Mr Armstrong was “…. urging the UK and Scottish governments in particular to negotiate genuine and meaningful regional control of EU fisheries policy in the negotiations on Britain’s relationship with the EU that are now underway.”

    I was not aware that the UK government granted the Scottish Government a role in the pre-EU referendum negotiations with EU member states and institutions: the leader of the Tories in Holyrood would surely have objected to any such role. And I wonder if David Cameron even raised fisheries issues as he negotiated his (unremarkable) ‘deal’.

    Mr Armstrong is also reported as saying that if the UK votes to withdraw from the EU there would be an “immediate, fundamental change” for the industry and “The UK’s long-lost control over the greater part of the northern European fishing grounds would be restored.” However he adds, while this is a fact and “instinctively sounds like a very good thing”, it was not necessarily a decisive argument in favour of withdrawal. Mr Armstrong is hedging bets there it would seem.

    The article goes on to report what Mr Armstrong sees as the other elements to consider: ‘there would need to be “a positive balance” between the gain from leaving the EU and the other effects, such as the need to renegotiate reciprocal fishing and marketing terms with the EU and third countries such as Norway in particular.’ And in any event he asks, would the UK and Scottish governments make a better job of managing fisheries than the EU? “Part of the problem is that, however much we may dislike the thought, the reality is that fishing and the fishing industry is not a major economic force in the UK or even the Scottish economy.”

    I think we can all be pretty sure that it won’t be a high priority for a Tory BREXIT government in Westminster! I wonder how well trickledown economics will work in favour of fishing communities?

    Having pointed out the control exercised by the EU and criticised its policies towards the fishing industry, the article ends with Armstrong criticising the SNP. He states: “… since the SNP came to power they have had seven years to do something about the CFP (Common Fisheries Policy) and they’ve done nothing.”

    However in the evidence Armstrong gave to the House of Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee in 2011 on EU proposals for the reform of the CFP ( ) he acknowledges the limited power of the Scottish Government over EU policy changes but what’s even more notable, he does NOT want the Scottish Government to take any actions towards the EU fisheries regime that are different from the position taken by the UK Government. Here are extracts from his oral evidence:

    “As you are fully aware, the management of fishing is devolved, but it is executive devolution to execute the rules as set by Brussels and agreed by the member state, which is the United Kingdom. We are endeavouring in the Scottish industry to make absolutely sure that Defra (the relevant UK government department) and the organisation previously known as the Scottish Executive are hand-in-hand in this matter. Indeed, that is largely the case; there are no areas of dispute where there would be advantage or disadvantage gained if a direction were taken that would split the two Administrations.”

    (In passing, this reference by Mr Armstrong to ‘the organisation previously known as the Scottish Executive’ was made in 2011, c. 4 years after the use of the term “Scottish Government’ was introduced and in common use!)

    Asked by a member of the HoL committee for an indication of any specific measures that could be introduced to safeguard the Scottish fishing fleet, Armstrong replies: “The Scottish fishing fleet? Actually, we are thinking more along the lines of the United Kingdom fishing fleet because the rules ought to apply to us all.” So nothing needed specifically for the Scottish fleet.

    By implication, an SNP government should not act in any way different from the direction set by the UK Government, which has been in turn the only source of direct influence on EU policy to date.

    Does this mean that on the CFP that the SNP is bad because UK Government has been bad …. or from a unionist perspective, is it just always SNPbad. And would the SNP have been really, really bad if it had diverged from the position of the UK Government in the interests of the industry in Scotland?

  72. cearc says:


    ‘Nothing going on in politics obvs..’

    Clearly not in Scottish politics anyway. Not a single Wings posting about the entirely new and rapidly advancing changes to the Indy position.

    Ian B,

    I’d really rather not imagine that, thank you.

  73. Nana says:


    Aye nothing happening in Scottish politics, no not a damn thing.

  74. Onwards says:


    Yes, It isn’t the best of economic circumstances to have another referendum in the next 2 years, but it may be the only way for continuous membership, unless we can be put in some sort of extended ‘holding zone’, or promised fast track future membership.

    Big problem is that we would be having a referendum at a time of uncertainty, when no-one knows what a future UK deal will look like, or even if they will be in the single market. I can see them threatening to stay out of the single market just to sabotage an indyref.. and threatening tariffs on Scottish trade.

    There will be just as much uncertainty on both sides this time though.

  75. Macbeda says:

    Heard Gove on R4 (spits out bad taste in my mouth) telling us all that he wouldn’t enact Article 50 until next year because we’re in charge of when we go.

    He might have made a bit of a mistake there.

  76. Meindevon says:

    My other half was speaking to a close relation who had personal contact with Gove in a past job in which he advised the government as an academic, and he said he was ‘a nasty piece of work’. And I have very strong suspicions that he is a Tory!

    No surprise there then!

  77. solarflare says:

    Too many posters to thank individually but thanks to all for the welcome and the comments on my previous post this morning. Hope it all pans out like many say but I’m already envisaging WM as the end-of-level boss on the horizon!

  78. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Don’t think of tossing (pun intended) one of your puerile fuckwit smug questions in my direction. Instead I suggest you get your prostrate checked for tell-tale signs of acute swelling, but ask your doctor to look inside your ear. The only thing up your rectum is a serious blockage of half-masticated Tory propaganda and a dead squirrel.”

    Can we calm this sort of thing down a smidge? Ta.

  79. Jock McDonnell says:

    Let’s just make sure brexit goes ahead & we work to build friendships with those we can win over to indyref2

    Just work on those goals, nothing much will happen til A50, we need to be ready by then.

  80. Valerie says:

    @Dr Ew
    Fascinating about Gove, but I’m not surprised, he comes over as a supremely confident snake, manipulating to get what he wants.

    I was gobsmacked, watching his speech, outlining lots of good sounding almost socialist stuff. If ANYONE believes that he will give Scotland anything like valuable fishing rights, they are completely deluded.

    I think it’s definitely May or Gove, but I’m quietly confident of our FM, and her team are more than capable of dealing with. The issue is protracted haggling, and again SNP will judge timing etc.

    I watched Angus MacNeil as Chair of Energy committee, grill Leadsom, and he was incredibly prepared, so he made her and her bagcarrier, look pretty lame.

    We have a very bright bunch up here in gov’t, who can run rings around those that swan around as their birth right.

  81. mike cassidy says:

    Interesting interview on with Ireland’s EU Minister.

    Their intention to ensure as little “hard border” as possible is surely the template for us.

    And his comments on Scotland are so neutral as to be almost a parody!

  82. cearc says:


    WM has lost it’s power. It has caused turmoil and pissed off the whole world over a schoolboy tiff.

    Scotland now has the upperhand as we have support from other countries.

    As Craig Murray said (paraphrased) you become an independent nation when other countries recognise you as such not by referendums.

    The whole situation has changed now. Internationally, economically and constitutionally. Not that anyone would know from articles posted on ‘the leading scottish political blog.’

  83. Ruby says:

    Onwards says:
    1 July, 2016 at 6:11 pm

    I can see them threatening to stay out of the single market just to sabotage an indyref.. and threatening tariffs on Scottish trade.

    Ruby replies

    Lets suppose they do stay out of the single market (which I don’t fully understand) and they put tariffs on Scottish trade where would the people in England go for these goods that they currently buy from Scotland. Would it not be the buyer that would suffer if there were tariffs.

    PS What is it they buy from Scotland and what do they do with the goods?

    My other question is what does Scotland buy from England?

  84. yesindyref2 says:

    I really can’t see the EU being vicious towards the UK, nor can I see the UK putting Union with Scotland before the interests of the rUK – no matter how much they bluster about it during Indy Ref 2. They’re thick, but not that thick.

    Anyways, another piece in the jigsaw fits into place nicely of course. Indy Ref 1 always had a problem with free tuition and charging EWNI as fellow members of the EU. The SG were talking about getting a special derogation from the EU, which wouldn’t be easy, and perhaps not even possible. All sorts of workarounds, like full fees and busrsaries for Scots, which might not work or be legal.

    Well, the rUK will be out of the EU, and can be treated the same as any other non-EU country – i.e. charged as now. No problem.

  85. Ruby says:

    I found the article in Les Echos.

    Original article from Les Echos.

    Google translate

    They ask the question ‘Was Brexit a victory for the people or for lies?’

    I wonder if they asked the same question re the IndyRef.

    PS Where’s Stu is he overwhelmed with so much news?

  86. Vestas says:

    What’s often forgotten about Gove is that he’s married to a Daily Mail columnist.

    Pretty sure the DM has lots of stuff on the tories that they’ve never published. Boris fucked off PDQ when push came to shove – do we really think he did that for Gove, mmmm?

    It’ll be May v Gove and we have to hope that this becomes a knock-down, drag-out fight to delay the A50 trigger.


  87. Iain More says:


    Bertie Armstrong is a Unionist Naw Bag snake! He needs to be sacked from his role in the SFF.

  88. Iain More says:

    re Bertie Armstrong

    I forgot to add that the SG should really play hard ball with the SFF as long as that duplicitous Brit Nat snake Armstrong heads the SFF.

  89. Ghillie says:

    Gove promising more powers to Scotland?

    Aye right.

    Obviously thinks we are as thick as a Boris.

  90. cearc says:


    Well one thing that they will have to buy (rather than just ‘pool and share’ as now) is electricity.

    The import lines from France and NL already run at capacity and England’s production shows no sign of increasing in the short term.

  91. Edward says:

    Tam Jardine @ 5.44pm

    Many thanks for your kind words regarding my posts regarding exports. Ports and so on.

    As far as an actual article is concerned, I could do that, but must admit that I tend to get carried away on my expertise, which might have the danger of driving Stu up the wall if I don’t stick to proper structure and keep to the subject without making everyone fall asleep.

    My background, is, as I have alluded to is shipping, with 45 years’ experience that includes ships agency, imports, exports, sea freight, air freight and major project logistics. Having said that, I am still learning. My very first job as a junior clerk was to learn the customs tariff inside and out.
    I was in shipping before we joined the Common Market, as it was known and during each phase
    of the European Community. So I know what it was like at all stages.

    Now I am a free-lance consultant working for myself advising clients on best method, duty rates to be expected and arranging shipments around the world.

    I know this looks a bit like a CV, but hope that it adds a bit of shade and colour to why I know so much about shipping ?

    You are right, there will be an impact on all companies, large or small that currently do business with
    The EU. Most notable will be cash flow. As you know when you purchase something from the EU, it’s more or less the same process as if you’re buying from in the UK. The EU supplier has the option of adding the originating state’s VAT or selling without VAT, with VAT to be accounted for in the UK at the UK rate, to which you settle as part of your intrastats.

    But moving out of the EU, will result in all imports from the EU, being liable for immediate payment of VAT at time of import, in the same way as goods are that come from outside the EU. Add to that any Duty that’s liable, if there is no free trade agreement.

    All the talk of deals being struck to ensure some form of free trade is idiotic to say the least, especially as the UK would have to accept free movement of people. The EU will not make a special case for the UK, as they are governed by the WTO to ensure that existing free trade agreements are the same for all countries that do have free trade agreements under EFTA/EEA.

    I despair at the sheer arrogance of the unionists who spout that the UK will get a deal that’s exclusive to the UK.

    How can you say that importing out with the EU is a pain ? Though I agree that some suppliers can be a pain . Exports can be a pain but as with anything, you need to do your homework and speak to people like me 😀

    I cant speak for all clearing companies, but I do know that some are, how should I put it? Make me even think of the Bonanza theme music when dealing with them. The other problem all across the international freight industry is they have reduced the experienced staff and replaced with ‘school leavers’ who are simply given a book or instruction to follow. Ask them a question outside their scope and that’s it they are lost.

    The leave campaign’s idiotic assumption about seeking out new markets is all wind and piss. These markets already exist!. The UK already exports and imports from the USA, Canada, India, South America.
    There are already trade agreements in place with many countries.
    Problem is a mixture of not actually having much manufacturing and of the manufacturing there is
    will not get of the backsides and go abroad to drum up business, they just want it handed to them on a plate because they are British. In the main if they go to a trade fair, they either don’t try to speak the language, don’t find out about local customs and haven’t a clue about shipping terms.

    This actually goes back to cost cutting and lowering the importance of having someone responsible for shipping, Usually its tacked onto someone in the accounts dept, purchasing dept or sales

    Told you I go on a bit 😉

  92. Edward says:

    cearc @6.52 pm

    One things for sure, the problem of sufficient energy generation is going to get even more acute with the much talked about and much expensive Hinkley Point Nuclear power station plans shuddering to a complete halt.

    It looks like EDF might not want to be involved for a start. Also
    EDF have discovered that an existing power station has a major structural problem with the pressure vessel (had excessive carbon in the steel, making it prone to crack, something you really don’t want it to do in operation).

    With the UK leaving the EU, that also could end EDF’s involvement

    In addition to that there is a lot of EU funding earmarked for renewable energy projects. Take that out and no projects

    It will probably result in, not so much the last person leaving England, turn the lights out, they will go out anyway!

  93. Alan Gerrish says:

    Just heard on C4 news that Giddy has decided belatedly, to take Nicola’s advice and ease off on austerity to grow the economy!! So they are only over a year behind the curve and still think we are in no position to run our own affairs. Words (of the printable sort) fail me!

  94. tartanpigsy says:

    Can’t stress how important this is. It’s Friday night and you should all really be stretching to what you can to give to this fundraiser. This as I said before will be a huge enabler to the many Yes groups around the country.

    It sits 33% funded after 36 hours,

    ‘That’s fantastic’ I hear people saying.

    No it is not!!!



    To those who have already donated what they can, and those who can’t help out at this time ignore the caps lock screaming and post a link somewhere or tweet the appeal.

    Like I said this is about a lot more than a few flegs.

    Thanks folks 🙂

  95. cearc says:


    ‘Problem is a mixture of not actually having much manufacturing … just want it handed to them on a plate because they are British.’

    Spot on!

    Which is also why no one is going to be in a frantic hurry to make deals.

  96. yesindyref2 says:

    According to the French, freedom of movement is on the table, especially countries that are very close like Norway and Switxerland: ““When we negotiate with a country, a third party, Norway, Switzerland, to take countries that are very close, we discuss all subjects: under what conditions there is freedom of movement of people; freedom of movement of goods; of capital” (Sapin, French finance minister).

    Similar sensible noises from a Hardtalk interview with a French representative last night, forget her name, (but Heed would have been jumping up and down). Oh, and the word from the French so far is Hinckley Point will go ahead.

    What the EU wants already more than anything, is stability. Same will be true for iScotland, in the EU, and out of the UK, for both the EU and the rUK.

  97. heedtracker says:

    What’s often forgotten about Gove is that he’s married to a Daily Mail columnist.

    Gove’s a hack too. Private school, Oxbridge, neo fascist P&J, BBC ofcourse and where else, toryboy MP, PM?

    Gove got his Gordon’s private school fees paid for by the tax payer, he got his free Oxbridge degree and he no doubt got 3 or 4 years of maintenance grant, free. All of which he and his toryboy cohorts, red and blue have scrapped completely, all of it.

    How they get away with this staggering shyste on us all, is probably displayed by likes of Ligger Neil on his late night Politics show last night and his quick Gove biog, Gove being the son of fish monger and quite common actually, never once mentioning the astonishing hypocrisy of creepy bums like Gove.

    You have been toryboy warned.

  98. Cal says:

    Rugby @5.46pm

    “La presse britanique a echoue a combatre les mensonges politiques. De la courbure des bananas aux bus a deux etages”

    The British press failed to combat the political lies. From the curvature of bananas to double decker buses”

  99. Ken500 says:

    Gove was adopted.

    Michelle Mone flogs jewellery on QVC shopping channel.

    Lulu flogs make up.

  100. Ruby says:

    Edward says: I find your posts very interesting.

    The bit that caught my eye just now was

    ‘In the main if they go to a trade fair, they either don’t try to speak the language, don’t find out about local customs and haven’t a clue about shipping terms.’

    This caught my eye because I was wondering about the wisdom of not allowing EU students to study for free in Scotland. Perhaps what we should be doing is encouraging Scottish students to go to study in the EU where they require to speak another language.

    Perhaps the deal should be only students from countries that are able to offer the same deal to Scottish students should be allowed to study for free.

  101. heedtracker says:

    Not much going in red or blue toryboy world, lull before the crucifixion of JC probably.

    My Slovene girlfriend’s still going mental at England on rancid The Graun Btl, for Brexit and ending this farce union too. Wonder if he saw Brexit coming down the road?

    1 Jul 2016 11:27
    9 Recommend
    While Gove is lying about the UK’s bright post-Brexit future and “taking back control”:

    Breaking news (from Sky News):

    EasyJet has started talks with EU governments about moving its headquarters out of the UK.

    Ha ha ha.

    Old Duncan’s really scared of JC though.

    Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall Jun 30
    Tomorrow Bobby Ewing steps out of the shower and we discover everything since last May has just been a dream sequence.

    Who’s shower and who’s dream?

  102. Sandy says:

    Who is the new Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, anybody?

  103. HandandShrimp says:

    The new Shadow Scottish Secretary is Dave Anderson MP Blaydon (no me neither)

    A bold move by Jeremy.

  104. Tinto Chiel says:

    So it seems that Murdoch and Dacre support Catwoman May, who has already told us our human rights are whatever she decides. So that’s that sorted.

    As a 21st. Century reincarnation of Thatcher, I can hardly think of a better PM to increase Yes voters in Indyref2.

    O/T: I am pretty disgusted at the predictable Britnat treatment of The Somme slaughterhouse, complete with Royals. As usual, it glorifies the senseless deaths without analysing any of it. I never thought I would agree with the Archbishop of Canterbury, but when he said it all represented the failure of the political class, he was quite correct.

    Duncan Duff’s “Scotland’s War Losses” is a valuable corrective, as well as being a store of useful statistics. It’s available free on-line because it’s quite hard to find on paper.

    The Brexiteers have rolled back 60 years of cooperation which was itself a humanitarian reaction to the obscenity of war.

    We really need out of this defunct Union and take our place again among the family of progressive, outward-looking European nations.

  105. Edward says:

    yesindyref2 @ 7.15pm

    So you reckon that the UK Government are going to accept the freedom of movement then?
    Basically whats been said regarding the 4 movements has already been stated, that in order to gain access to the EU market a country that is outside the EU have to accept these (plus all the rules and regs of the EU) which Norway and Switzerland already do.

    But, as I have already mentioned, the EU cannot adjust to suite any one country, it has to be the same for all, or they will run into trouble with the WTO. Its as simple as that.

    Regards Hinkley Point, you may be right at the moment,but EDF do have problems which need to be resolved with the pressure vessel
    in France
    More info here :

  106. mike cassidy says:

    Does that make our new Shadow Secretary of State the person with the shortest ever time as Shadow Secretary Of State For Northern Ireland –

    or is he doubling up in these difficult times?

  107. galamcennalath says:

    Ghillie says:

    “Gove promising more powers to Scotland?

    Aye right.”

    Aye right, indeed! They can fck right off with that kind of talk.

    They had Smith. Their big chance to actually deliver something useful in the wake of IndyRef1. We got EVEL instead.

  108. Xaracen says:

    “Told you I go on a bit”

    Please, go on a bit more! These are important aspects of economics and trade that we never hear anything substantive about from our so-called betters, and it sounds very much like they have been spinning pish in these areas as they have proven to do in pretty much every other area of life. Naturally, one should take that as a given, but having some solid facts of relevance to hold onto is like having anti-pish vaccine!

    See, I can go on a bit too. 😀

  109. Edward says:

    Ruby @ 7.21 pm

    Actually think that its very important to have Language student exchange programmes where students learning languagues spend time in the country of the language they are learning.

    There is nothing that impresses a host later in life that the visitor speaking the language

    Recently we had Angus Robertson MP being interviewed on Austrian TV ORF about Brexit and the consequences

    At the end of the 6 minute interview in which Angus spoke perfect German, the interviewer praised Angus on his perfect German

    ORF now knowing that Angus speaks German, will be inclined to go to him again as it makes it easier for them as they dont have to have an interpreter in the middle translating. Also its of benefit to the Scottish Government as they can talk directly over the babble of Westminster, to the EU

  110. Does any one have a figure for how much the fishing industry in Scotland`s territorial waters is,

    and who is fishing in our waters,

    if they are our waters to exploit why do we let others take what is ours,

    like our oil is our fishing rites being abused by Westminster.

  111. Ruby says:

    Cal says:
    1 July, 2016 at 7:17 pm

    Rugby @5.46pm

    “La presse britanique a echoue a combatre les mensonges politiques. De la courbure des bananas aux bus a deux etages”

    The British press failed to combat the political lies. From the curvature of bananas to double decker buses”

    Ruby replies
    Cheers! That sounds good!

    My initial thought was that they were saying that The British press were bent like bananas and told lies the size of double decker buses! 🙂

    Things sometimes get ‘lost in translation’ Do you remember the translation of what the Pope said during the IndyRef?

  112. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s not what Sapin said. He said it’s ALL on the table, i.e. they can negotiate with the country on open terms. In other words it’s not a case that the UK has to accept full freedom of movement, it’s negotiatble.

  113. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Re UK electricity generation and demand.

    I find this site rather interesting…

  114. Edward says:

    Just noticed a story about Easyjet in talks with the EU regarding moving its head office from the UK to a EU state

    This is due to wanting to maintain its air operator’s certificate (AOC) .

    Easyjet’s operations are only possible due to the UK being in the EU. Fortunately for Easyjet the bulk of its operations are outside the UK

    Ryanair can also be affected by the UK leaving the UK, but it already has its head office in Dublin

    Likewise British Airways will be affected, but its parent company IAG is headquartered in Madrid (IAG also own Iberia, Aer Lingus, OPen Skies and Vueling)

    But in all cases all airlines operating between the UK and each of the EU countries may have to apply for additional licences (which they dont need at the moment as its covered by the EU single open skies policy)

  115. Ruby says:


    Oh no!

    More Orange Fuckwits marching in Edinburgh!

    What a bloody racket!

  116. Ken500 says:

    There are enough EU students and wealthy students from elsewhere in Scottish University 20%+ getting a Scottish taxpayer subsidised education. When Scottish students cannot get full access to their own Universities. Funding would be better spent on early learning years in schools. To get more pupils into Universities.

    Exchange students (1 or 2 years) are different. Scottish students go to study in other Universities worldwide and students come to Scotland, studying for free. Average fees in EU Universities are average €1000 a year. – £700. now approx £900 because of the drop in the value of the £ because of Brexit vote.

    Scotland trade figures do not take into account. The cost of materials, labour, expenses etc. These would have to be deducted. Scotland receives £Billions in investment from the EU and (European) banks, for renewables, infrastructure etc. The EU prioritises essential investment to bring benefits to all the EU. Scotland is uniquely placed geographical for renewable energy. i.e. Climate, wind, sea wave and sun. Best in the world. The highest wind speeds (turbine) in the world were recorded in the Isle of Lewis.

    Hinkley Point is a total absolute waste of public money. A disaster waiting to happen. Cost £100Billion eventually , years late and overbudget. A £10Billion tribal barrage would produce more safer fuel and power. HS2 is an appalling waste of money which will make journey through Britan take longer. No business case and it will end up costing totally over tine and budget. £100Billion. Money would be better spent improving and electrifying the whole rail net work.

  117. Albaman says:

    Labour’s Scottish Shadow Sectary is now Sunderland born, Dave Anderson,
    Wonder what Kez thinks of that eh?!.

  118. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 1 July, 2016 at 3:54 pm:

    ” … His personal attacks on Peffers, no, they should stop.”

    Ach! yesindyref2, If he is sniping at me he is leaving someone else in peace, someone who may be upset. As for me I don’t hurt easily. I’ve been campaigning for Scottish independence since we were so thin on the ground that it was a great event if you met another SNP member.

    We were regarded as a bit odd way back in the late 40s and early 50s. Treated worse than Jehovah’s Witnesses we were. Anyway I tend to ignore him except to give him the occasional prod with a stick. Just to check he’s still alive you understand.

  119. Ken500 says:

    The Orange Marches should be banned. The Orange Lodge is an unequal, discriminatory, selective Organisation. They should not be illegally funded by public money. Policing costs etc. In many parts of Scotland they are totally banned,

  120. Dr Jim says:

    Tories promising more powers for Scotland seem to have forgotten we already have a power they don’t have and that’s the power to choose, whereas they just gave theirs up

    For the Yoon types crowing about replacing one set of rulers with another, the Yoons are always banging on about being controlled by Brussels but if that’s the case Scotland is controlled by Westminster AND Brussels so in actual fact we’re getting rid of Westminster so that’s one less isn’t it

    Or is my counting wrong

    Just another thought about imports
    England doesn’t grow enough to feed itself that’s why it has to import food from the EU But Scotland can feed itself and more so will England not have to pay Tariffs to Scotland to import food from us in the future thereby making the Scottish farmers happier than they think they’re not at the moment making the EU more attractive by the minute (I’m basing this thought on a guess)

    Soebody who knows more on this might enlighten us

  121. ahundredthidiot says:

    Mr Gove and his misses have watched too much House of Cards and are delusional.


    Let’s cut Wales some slack tonight, despite their vote, it would be nice to see them stay IN Europe.

  122. IcySpark says:

    The argument of more powers (fishing, agriculture etc) if Scotland leaves alongside rUK is moot. It cannot be used to tempt us to vote against independence.

    If Scotland leaves alongside rUK, we will get these powers anyway. Any powers that are not specifically reserved to Westminster are deemed to be automatically devolved.
    If we get independence, we get all powers.

  123. Ruby says:

    Oh look at Xaracen avatar!

    Thumbs up!

    Someone did post how to upload an avatar which I did save but sadly it has disappeared somewhere in cyberspace.

    I expect everyone knows about this site already
    where you can get free vectors I’m always a few steps behind.

    These copyright free vectors save a lot of fiddling about in Photoshop although it does entail some fiddling about in Illustrator.

    This one has the euro flag stars etc

  124. Ken500 says:

    British Airways have a whole terminal at Heathrow. Terminal 5 was recently built. People can miss their flight because of congestion and delays.

  125. Edward says:

    yesindyref2 @ 7.41 pm

    I know that is not what Sapin stated, what he said is his own opinion that ‘everything is on the table, including the movement of people and capital’

    What I was stating is that the EFTA/EEA arrangements are overseen by the WTO and I’m sure the WTO would not want that much of a variance with in the agreements of EFTA/EEA that would disadvantage any existing member state such as Norway.

    Basically , why on earth would Norway have to accept freedom of movement of people as well as all the rules and regulations of the EU, if the UK does not?

    The UK can negotiate as much as they want, but the EU will keep in mind that they have to ensure there is no wide discrepancy.

    Of course they could create yet another ‘free trade area’ specifically for the UK, but somehow I dont think that will happen

  126. stewartb says:

    Scott Finlayson @ 7.40pm

    Don’t have time to answer your question directly but these sources are rich in relevant stats on marine fisheries.

  127. Croompenstein says:

    Not much going in red or blue toryboy world, lull before the crucifixion of JC probably

    I caught JC singing Wish You Were Here heed at least I think it was him …

  128. Dr Jim says:

    Don’t ban the Orange Marches relocate them to the country who’s allegiance and crown they pledge themselves to

    They’d have to hire coaches to take them to their motherland
    Let’s see how long the English could put up with them banging their big drums outside their houses at 9pm on a Saturday and Sunday morning

    Now there’s an export I’d like to see

  129. Icyspark says:

    Forget my last point, I was having a brain no worky moment.

  130. bugsbunny says:

    Interesting Article.

    Austrias Supreme Court overturns Presidential Election due to Postal Vote Irregularities.

    Postal votes tampered with and altered, foreigners allowed to vote. Underage voters allowed to vote.

  131. Bob Mack says:


    Great posts Edward.Very useful information which I shall try to absorb.

  132. ahundredthidiot says:


    on orange order marches. I would not ban, but make them hire public areas like Glasgow green for the day, make them pay their way. keep them out of public eye so to speak.

    let them dwindle away. they are pathetic, but give them no grounds for grievance by banning them, as much as I would like to see that.

  133. Edward says:

    yesindyref2 @ 7.41 pm

    I should have added that even if an agreement is reached, there will have to be customs border control on either side for goods to be formally cleared through and applicable duty and VAT paid on import, as is the case for goods going between Norway and the EU

    If anyone thinks otherwise, then they are living in cloud cuckoo land 🙂

  134. davidb says:

    @ Albaman

    But he has a Scottish name…

    @ Dr Jim

    The advantage for Scots farming viz English trade is quality, distance and freight cost. No tunnels or boats. The EU does have tariffs on goods like wine from outside the EU. I thought myself that rUK could get cheaper wine from outside the EU once they left, and wondered if they would get seasonal agricultural produce from more non-EU countries too. Particularly North America.

    I note that most places with borders to different tax jurisdictions seem to have glaring disparities in duty paid goods. Around Germany I have seen Fuel cheaper in Austria and Luxembourg. In Ireland Diesel is cheaper in the Republic. I wondered whether Carlisle folk will come to Scotland to fill their car and Scots would drive to Carlisle to fill their boots.

  135. Lenny Hartley says:

    Yesindyref2 @19.41 that does not square with what both Hollander and Merkel said this week about cherry picking.

    Could not be bothered archiving the link, anyway I miss press tv used to watch it all the time until it was put off the air by us/UK governments for telling the truth. Only program I didn’t watch was Galloway, he has been quiet recently hasn’t he?

  136. Ruby says:

    Dr Jim says:
    1 July, 2016 at 8:02 pm

    Don’t ban the Orange Marches relocate them to the country who’s allegiance and crown they pledge themselves to

    Ruby replies

    Their Queen is currently in residence at Holyrood I expect that is why they marched down the Royal Mile.

    They wanted to play some music for her before she went to bed.

  137. yesindyref2 says:

    If the rUK wants to join the EEA it will have to follow the EU acquis, the four movements, as the EEA has signed up to much of the acquis (though not all). However, like the Lisbon Treaty, the EEA agreements have “Protocols”, which provide for exceptions, whther products or even countries within the EEA. The rUK could have protocols for the EEA that signed up to the EEA which as a block has signed up to parts of the EU acquis, but have its own protocols excluding or varying selected parts of the EEA agreement.

    But the rUK could negotiate its own complete set of bilateral terms with the EU, that didn’t mean EEA membership (likewise EFTA).

    What Sapin says is it’s all on the table, and indeed that’s within the articles 50 and 218, negotiating with the rUK as a third country. Similar to the Canada-EU agreement.

  138. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dr Jim re Orange Walks one of my mates , a deep thinker, told me decades ago, that in the event of the reunification of Ireland and Scotland had not regained its freedom, then all the ultra-unionists from Northern Ireland would want to relocate to Scotland. He feared that this would stymie Scots Independence and he had looked at all the options , and came to the conclusion that since their ancestors had been planted in Ulster then they would not mind being re settled in the Falkland Islands.

    Think that would solve a few problems 🙂

  139. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Just passed one of those OO characters coming back from the shop. He must’ve been at (or going to) practise somewhere and was in full uniform.

    Quite unusual (even here in Ayshire) to see one of them walking ‘solo’, but tragic to note that he couldn’t have been more than 13 or 14 years old.

  140. yesindyref2 says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    Once Article 50 is invoked, negotiations start. Well, with negotiations either side can say NO. Neither side is forced toa gree to anything. In theory at the end of the 2 years,, nothing has been agreed at all, everybody has said “NO”, and the EU says bye-bye, thanks for all the fish.

    So Merkel and Hollande are completely entitled to set their position at this stage, and enter the negotiations frm that position. Whether that will end that way, who knows?

  141. Graeme says:

    Hi guys

    I have a few questions I hope the good people on this site can help me with

    firstly about myself

    I believe in Scottish independance and have done all my adult life, that belief is due to an interest in Scottish history which began one day at the age of 19 when I suddenly realised I knew nothing about the history of my own country so I decided to rectify that and read all the books I could get my hands on,

    I did consider myself fairly knowledgable on the subject until I started viewing this site and reading posts from the likes of Mr Peffers and some others, my belief in independance was never based on the economic argument ( I don’t know enough about economics for that)in fact until the independance referendum in 2014 I like many believed we were too poor to go it alone but I never really cared about that due to my belief in self determination and freedom which to me is the 2 most fundamental aspects of nationhood and Scotland has neither of these things

    We have a treacherous history which sadly still plagues us to this day with the likes of Gordon Brown, David Mundell and others who in some countries would face treason charges for the crimes they’ve committed to a country they call their own, unfortunately that is very unlikely to ever happen but hopefully if/when the day comes that Scotland regains her nationhood these people (to use the term loosely) will leave Scotland and never return, I desperately want Independance for Scotland and although we’ve never been closer we do have a habit as a nation of grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory and it worries me

    So I have a few questions

    (1) at PMQ 30/06/2016 Ruth Davidson made the point that the UK was a bigger market than the EU, I suppose it was a fair point but sounded to me like a veiled threat the UK may block Scottish imports in the event of Scottish independance, personally I don’t think that would happen but there are undoubtadly many who wouldn’t share my belief and the unionists would use this relentlessly in their fearmongering campaign, so my question is what would we have to counter that?

    (2) Does anyone here believe like me the UK government are dragging their heels and may not impliment article 50 and if so would that put an end to our 2nd referendum

    I have many more questions but I would like to know what this forum thought of these

  142. Liz g says:

    Wondered if you have any thoughts on European Companies that own things like UK utilities,having the ability to play hardball with Westminster once it is no longer an EU member?
    By the way you really should do an article for us….please.

  143. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “@Rock says: 30 June, 2016 at 10:44 pm:

    “Can you in absolutely clear terms challenge my comment above.”
    Yes – is that clear enough for you?

    “Is it your view that the EU CAN and WILL deal with Scotland, as part of the UK, while the UK is negotiating Brexit with the EU?”

    They already are you bloody numptie.

    Utter pish as usual from you.

    They politely LISTENED to Nicola, they are not discussing anything, neither will they.

    Both the European Parliament president and European Commission president made it perfectly clear that they LISTENED.

  144. Ruby says:


    I bet these Orange Fuckwits will be back tomorrow when their Queen will be going up and down the Royal Mile along with Army pipe bands and stuff.

    I do think they believe they are part of the armed forces. ‘The Queens Own Orange Brigade’ They had a march on armed forces day.

    I understand there will also be loads of horses which will be quite nice to see although the riders never stop to poop-a-scoop.

    If you are needing any manure/horse shit for your garden you should head down the Royal Mile tomorrow with your shovel & barrow. You’ll need to go by foot as all roads will be closed.

  145. IvMoz says:

    @Ken500 7:21

    What is the fact Gove was adopted got to do with anything. You’re using it as a slur.

    Adoption is a great outcome for the kids & parents involved.

    Attack his politics (& I’ll back you all day long) but not his shit start in life or the unselfish decision of his parents to adopt him.


  146. yesindyref2 says:

    1). Scotland currently exports more to the rUK than it does to the rEU – it’s nearer. But that can change over time. It’s a silly threat, because Davidson, the Conservatives, nor the UK Government actually control the companies and the custoemrs – we will buy from whom we want.

    2). The EU has said no neogitation until the Article 50, so the UK is saying, we invoke Article 50 when we want. Might be this year, might be next but there’s some interesting cricket on, we might leave it until the next GE. The EU doesn’t want that, so might start talking, or might tell the UK to [censored]. It’s a form of negotiation, which started minutes after the EU Ref result was known.

  147. Rock says:

    Grouse Beater,

    “For Rock and other ill-informed, over-opinionated blowhards:

    No EU member can veto an existing member who wishes to remain in the Union. Hence, talks are on to keep Scotland held over in abeyance until such time as we are a nation state again. Where there’s a will…

    And for those with poor eyesight here it is in Braille:


    Total rubbish.

    Scotland IS NOT a member of the EU.

    The UK is.

    As far as the EU is concerned, Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK.

    They don’t discuss membership with regions.

  148. Cal says:

    Edward @8.05pm

    Not sure if I got the right end of the stick but are you arguing that there would need to be a customs border between Scotland and England to prevent non-EU origin goods from England entering the EU via Scotland? If so, would a simpler solution not be to have customs checks at our ports (sea and air)? Any English lorries found at port would be turned away and would have no choice but return back to England. In effect our border with the EU is the North Sea.

    As far as passport control is concerned, we would let all EU passport holders enter at our ports and they would be entitled to work in Scotland only. As far as nationals from other countries as concerned, we would only let them in with the appropriate passport and visa. To prevent someone high tailing it down to England, destroying their passport and then applying for asylum, we could work closely with the English immigration authorities (just like Ireland does now) and copy passports/take biometric details (finerprints etc). Any asylum seeker turning up in England could be checked on a database and if found to be bogus returned to their country of origin.

    If we wish to allow a non-EU national the right to live and work we simply provide them with a visa/work visa that’s only valid in Scotland.

    I honestly can’t see any need for a physical border between Scotland and England. Your thoughts?

  149. Ruby says:

    ‘Ruth the Tory’ made the point that the UK was a bigger market than the EU,’

    There are 508 million inhabitants in the EU the population of the RUK is around 56 million.

    According to Strathclyde University research

    When Scotland is independent

    “there might be a boost to trade with the rest of the world. The same ESRC research points to evidence that trade between Scotland and the world beyond Britain has been constrained by such a close integration into the UK, and it suggests there could be compensatory growth there.”

  150. Lenny Hartley says:

    Graeme , we hold the upper hand in trade with UK, they need our stuff, oil, fish, whisky, electricity, water,beef et al. We are self sufficient in food, electricity, water, oil, whisky etc . An arrangement will be found, presumably they will be on some sort of EFTA deal otherwise they are up the creek without a paddle. So there will still be free movement of people and goods between us. Despite what Indyref2,says above and I can see where he is coming from, however I think the EU will probably not allow them to have free trade without the free movement of people. They will be worried about contagion I also think Germany (Frankfurt) will be eying up the Euro financial trade from the city of London so they in particular will be playing hardball.

    Yes I do think that they are trying to wriggle out of the referendum result as they know that they have screwed up big time. It’s up to Nicola and Co to get the timing right for Indy Ref 2 but it needs to be whilst there is still uncertainty over the rUK’s EU membership.

    Anyway that’s what I think probably a load of pish!

    o/t see On FB that Nicola has been subject to a makeover in Nazi Uniform and
    Hitler Moustache , have just Unfriended somebody who I liked for sharing it. Retards.

  151. Ken500 says:

    Orange Walks banned from public places. What they do on private land is up to the individual. Pay own expenses, if they want to exercise their music skills and co-ordination. Or pee and spew. Clean it up, not at public expense.

    They all arrive from Glasgow to Belfast in July. There has never been such a carry on. They shoot up each others windows, because estate householders don’t want to display UJ’s for more than a month. The tyre bonfires are an environmental hazard. Scaring off any visitors and ruining their economy. Unbelievable. Belfast has a sinister undertone. A strange atmosphere. A remnance of the previous violence.

    There are open bus tours of the conflicted areas. Murals and pubs etc. Quite unique if people are into that sort of thing. Many visitors do not stay too long. They don’t overstay their ‘welcome’.

  152. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Thepnr ( aye ah bunch of radicals indeed )Ah wiz sitting here gon loopy when ah found Wingers and thanks to you,s lot ah canny put ma feet up, sittin doon in ma smoking jaikit wie ma E gig n a nice Malt. But on ah positive note you,s brough me back from the brink and my Thanks to each & everyone.

  153. Breeks says:

    @ Yesindyref2 6:43

    How do UK / EFTA trade negotiations square with Cecilia Malstrom’s comments, (top EU Trade Commissioner) on the BBC?

    The bit that intrigues me is when she says:

    “Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner’s insistence that the UK must first leave.

    It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU.

    Taken at face value, these rules mean the UK cannot conduct its own trade talks for up to two years – a fearsome challenge to any prime minister trying to deliver Brexit”.

    That would at face value appear to prevent the UK negotiating a trade deal with anyone until the exit is complete. A recent trade deal with Canada took seven years to complete, so the impact on the UK could be severe.

    Given its the UK we’re talking about, I expect they will stick two fingers up towards Brussels, and negotiate anyway. But if they did that, the only plausible sanction I can see the EU having is instant dismissal; Article 50 deemed expired and the UK is booted out. UK happy, EU happy, Scotland up shit creek.

    What if that’s what does happen, and Scotland gets dragged out before we’ve had a chance to pull our eject button?

  154. cearc says:


    I think it might be well for you to submit a detailed article for (as well as here).

    I think there are an awful lot of businesses that have no idea how much paperwork they will be hit with post-brexit. Pre-EU you could always spot a companies shipping department by the stacks of stuff everywhere.

  155. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Rock.

    You quoted,

    Total rubbish.

    Scotland IS NOT a member of the EU.”

    So, Rock, you do not see the slightest possibility that there will be an independence referendum in the next year or so, prior to brexit?

    You do not have the confidence to believe that Scots will vote YES this time?

    An independent Scotland, prior to brexit, is a whole different ‘flask o’ hough’ that the EU will have to address. The EU will want to keep an independent Scotland as the 28th member, to replace England and Wales (and N. Ireland?).

    Or do you know something that is being kept from the rest of us here, that will stop Scotland remaining in the EU?

  156. Tinto Chiel says:

    “As far as the EU is concerned, Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK.

    They don’t discuss membership with regions.”

    Trouble is, Rock, that they’re doing that just now. In all likelihood Scotland will be put into the pending tray until we vote for Indyref2, and then we’ll be fast-tracked into full membership.

  157. ronnie anderson says:


  158. Glamaig says:


    1) what do I know, but this sounds like a typical threat we heard in Indyref1, one of those threats which when you think about it doesnt make any sense. The Unionists/Leavers/Brexiteers, whatever, are adamant they will have access to the single market. Which funnily enough is the same single market Scotland will be in as a member of the EU. So how can there be any trade barriers?

    2) Angus Robertson speaking on Austrian TV said he didnt think UK would back pedal, because the result of that could be a UKIP landslide in the next GE! If you consider that 53% of England voted Leave, and under the FPTP system only about 37% of the vote can get you an overall majority… Added to that, all the noises coming from the EU are getting a bit impatient… I think the Tory/Labour party are shitting themselves and delaying as long as they can, in the hope that people will forget about the referendum and everything can go back to normal… it never happened, you dreamt it all. In other words they are in denial. But I think they will just have to go ahead with it. Like you I get nervous at the talk of ignoring the result, having a second referendum, kicking Article 50 into the long grass etc. but on balance I think they are kidding themselves on.

  159. yesindyref2 says:

    Depends on how much you trust the BBC. I think the BBC has been anti-Europe since 1922 in the days of the Empire, and hasn’t moved on. But what she says is this: “First there has to be notification, which the next prime minister will do, I hope swiftly. And then that process can start.”

    So here are the questions:
    1) What is meant by Brexit?
    2) What is meant by political exit?
    3) Which process does she mean?
    4) others but my tea is ready!

  160. Ruby says:


    Would Edward not be better looking for business in England.
    Scotland is going to remain in the EU!

    Perhaps he should wait until they press the A50 button!

    Tell everyone in England that everything is going to be great and England is going to sell loads more stuff to all these new markets.

    I still don’t know what stuff they are going to sell to all these new markets can anyone give me the answer?

    Babycham & Cider?

  161. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ronnie Anderson –

    I don’t know how to make links ‘wee’, but this is how I picture you as you prepare for an evening of penning comments on WOS and other places.

  162. Ken500 says:

    The UK is not a bigger market than the EU. England 55Million EU 400Million. Scotland gets far more in investment and trade with the EU.

    They are manipulating the figures. Exaggerating the English markets with over inflated figures. Including oversees figures? and not taking off expenses, cost of manufacture etc. off. Not including EU and (European) banks investment in Scotland, worth £Billions. They are over inflating one side of the account ie trade with England and not including (balancing) the other side of the account EU investment in Scotland. Missing out important details.

    This is what Unionist politicians do. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. They do not have the ability to analyse figures. No experience and incompetent or deliberately corrupt.

    Self obsorbed – total unawareness.

    Tom Harris calls a politician, ‘A bully who is an embarrassment to a country’.

    If Gove doesn’t make people vote YES IndyRef2. Nothing will.

  163. Rock says:

    Kevin Evans,

    “But in saying that – a no voter changing to a yes is worth 2 votes and should be embraced and welcomed and not criticised or treated cynically.”

    I don’t have any problem whatsover with ORDINARY No voters changing to Yes.

    I too would wholeheartedly embrace them.

    Although I would make no effort whatsover to try to convince the elderly, the middle class and the English.

    They are extremely stubborn and or selfish, and they will only ever change when they themselves decide.

    Trying to persuade them is both unnecessary and useless.

    Our limited resources are better used trying to reach more of the folks that the RIC was so successful in reaching.

    But I an vehemently opposed to the likes of JK Rowling and McLeish given any part in the official Yes campaign.

    They are positioning themselves to remain powerful and influential in independent Scotland.

    The official Yes campaign had boycotted no other than the Rev. Stuart Campbell.

    It would be rank hypocrisy for it to include the likes of JK Rowling and McLeish because of their money and power.

  164. sandycraig says:

    On another topic can anybody explain why when Wales are putting in an absolute stonking performance against Belgium, for at least 5 minutes at half time Lineker and co are talking about England. Give it a rest for feks sake.

  165. gus1940 says:

    Harold Wilson said that ‘ a week is a
    long time in politics’.

    Now ‘half an hour is a long time in poltics’.

    Plenty posters are talking about an English Tariff Barrier against an indy Scotland should Former UK end up leaving The EU.

    However, trade works both ways and one only has to look at the goods in our supermarkets and other retail outlets to see how much is imported to Scotland from or via England.

    I can’t think of anything currently imported from England (other than racism) that we couldn’t source in The EU.

    In an indy Scotland I can envisage artics pouring off a restored daily passenger and goods ferry service between Rosyth and Zeebrugge and even a need for another service from Amsterdam plus cargo only ferries to cope with demand and container ships going to Grangemouth.

    Go for it Scotland and don’t be intimidated by the lies and threats form WM and the wonderfully biased MSM.

  166. Ken500 says:

    It is unlikely UKIP will get a landslide anytime soon. They poll 4Million vote out of approx 50Million electorate, GE. Some way to go. Cameron gambled and lost for nothing. It helped Scotland to increase the YES vote for Brexit from the UK.

  167. Tinto Chiel says:

    ronnie: sorry, too late. I tried to be reasonable. (Whacks head off wall.)

    Oh, look at that big spider.

    PS: When’s the next FS event?

  168. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 1 July, 2016 at 2:49 pm

    ” … Sky TV seems to think that if you’re born in Scotland that makes you Scottish or is it having a Scottish accent makes you Scottish or is it being white makes you Scottish?

    You are correct, Dr Jim, being Scottish is nothing whatsoever to do with place of birth, nor is it due to parentage. It is a cultural thing and is the choice of the individual.

    I went to school in Leith, back in the days when Leith was a large bustling international working docks. We had allsorts in our classrooms. Yet they were all mainly Leithers or from neighbouring Edinburgh areas like Granton and Newhaven. Scots through and through. They all spoke Scots and most were in fact born in Scotland.

    For some reason the incomers to Scotland seem to integrate far better than any other part of Britain. Perhaps it is because they do not get ghettoised.

    As to the ones who claim to be British Nationality – again you are Correct, Britain is not now, and never has been, a single nation. It is eight nations and four of them are also countries in the United Kingdom.

  169. Macart says:

    A lot of excellent informative posts today in thread.

    Highly recommend Looking through for Edward, Tam Jardine and Yesindyref2 for all you lurkers.

    The rest of us are only here for the banter. 🙂

  170. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Ian B.

    To make a url smaller, go to this site,

    and follow the (very) simple instructions.

  171. Rock says:



    Fuck right off. Have a break, and stop working for the unionists.”

    May I gently remind you, and the likes of you, that this website does not belong to you.

    If and when the owner tells me to stop posting, I will.

    For the record, I have never, ever told any poster to stop posting, let alone to “Fuck right off”.

  172. Tam Jardine says:


    I too have thought Westminster will pull some kind of illegal play and screw us over one last time for old time’s sake.

    We have to trust the FM and her team of experts to work through every conceivable scenario and be ready for anything.

    I have no doubt there will be obstacles in the way but I also know the EU is capable of great flexibility when it wants to be.

    We have to be careful not to underestimate what Westminster are capable of but having significantly reduced confidence in the UK I am not sure they will be in a position to make really bold, volatile plays like you describe.

    Bear in mind that sabotaging Nicola’s efforts to keep us in the EU would lead to fury up here and I would expect us to simply cut all ties immediately. On the face of it we have a choice to stay in the EU or not at this time which England does not have- we will be told our position is weak endlessly but we have options, we have strengths in our economy and resources, we have friends and we have political purpose and stability.

  173. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood nearly rite but withoot the fancy dressing gown n pipe ,am ah 21 century person E gig. An whit ur you dain playing aboot wie Getty image’s hiv no started that Bodice ripper yit, mind ah want the job as proof reader lol.

  174. Ken500 says:

    Any country EU or not can trade with any country in the world they want. Goods and services can go anywhere in the world except where they are international sanctions. England can trade with Australia or NZ if they want now. No one is stopping them. That will not change miraculous because they leave the EU.

    The illegal wars made transport, freight costs higher. Increased prices. Air travel has to avoid these areas and this makes journeys take longer and cost more. No straight routes.

  175. heedtracker says:


    Also, from Herald, also also, congrats to whatisface Cardham and his promotion to toryboy propagandist in chief.

    “Talks over keeping an independent Scotland in the EU have taken place, a Brussels insider has revealed.

    Dr Kirsty Hughes said she had been told “off the record” that discussions had taken place in the Belgian capital over placing Scotland in a “transitional holding pen” after the UK leaves the bloc, potentially preventing Scotland from having to leave and re-apply should the public back independence.

    The former senior political adviser in the European Commission and an Associate Fellow at Friends of Europe think tank also said that independence would be the “simplest and most obvious way” to achieve Nicola Sturgeon’s goal of maintaining the country’s place in the EU following last week’s referendum result.”

    My Slovene girlfriend just had some more kittens, British kittens!

    Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins Jun 30
    Big slip by the FM: there’s no Scottish negotiation with the EU, merely Scottish “interaction”. It’s for the UK to negotiate

  176. @Ian Brotherhood

    for your edification,

  177. Rock says:


    “His personal attacks on Peffers, no, they should stop.”

    Have you ever looked at Robert Peffers’ attacks on anyone who doesn’t agree with him?

    Let me remind you of some of Robert Peffers’ record:

    “The reason is the bloody clowns and congenital idiots exactly like you who meekly accept the Westminster Establishments propaganda as the stone cold truth.”

    “They already are you bloody numptie.”

    “Utter (unsubstaniated), pish! As usual”

    “Poor old Rock is a victim of brainwashing and would rather believe any bullshit that comes from the Establishment is stone cold truth when there isn’t a single bit of hard legal evidence to back it up.”

  178. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Robert Peffers.

    Typing about integration…

    In the 60s, our company of the Church of Scotland’s paramilitary force (the BB) spent our summer camp at Camserney, just along the road from Aberfeldy.

    We would get ourselves into Aberfeldy every second day to buy postcards ‘n’ stuff and spend the evening in the Birks Cinema, which had a habit of showing a film for two nights, then changing it to something else.

    Our postcard shop was at the entrance to ‘The Birks Of Aberfeldy’ – MacPherson’s Gift Shop’. It was run/owned by a guy whom we knew as “MacPherson The Pole”. Apparently, he had come over during WW2 and stayed after the hostilities.

    We, in Scotland, have a long track record of exporting our talent, then importing talent from elsewhere. My boss has been building his own house for the past few years. The guys he used to do all the construction work were Poles. He was well pleased with their work.

    UKIP has a lot to answer for…

  179. ahundredthidiot says:

    is anyone else wondering what four digit comments look like in the bubble….

    ……not to encourage pointless posts mind…

    like this one

  180. Valerie says:

    @Ronnie message received

    For info, Pete Wishart tweeted out report contained in City AM.

    Gove will make moves on Barnett for Scotland. SNP react angrily.

    A week out! This country is in the shitter financially, and even if May is PM, she will make the same move. Things are dire.

    Seems Murdoch wants Gove, but May has highest numbers of MPs behind her, and some want to pressure Gove into standing down.

    Dunno why Murdoch doesn’t just move into no.10, seriously.

  181. Ken500 says:

    There will be a EU tarriff against England/Wales. Scotland will be in the EU. So English imports Into Scotland will cost more but if England puts a tarriff on Scottish goods (not necessary) Scottish goods in England/Wales will cost more. Or England/Wales come to an agreement.

    EU goods from other EU countries could go through Scotland to England/Wales. Different trade routes. Or they could come across the Channel as per usual.

    Does Norway etc put a tariff in EU goods coming in. It would put up the the cost of the goods for Norwegians. Although the strong Kroner could prevent goods coming in. Put up the price of imports

    The UK doesn’t put a tarriffs on goods coming from overseas. It would make the goods cost more in UK. Goods more cheaper come into the UK from India/China. Cheap goods. India/China/US put tarriffs and trade barriers on goods coming from the EU (unfairly), flooding the markets. That is what Free trade agreement is about. To take off tarriffs on EU goods going into India China/US markets. It will make EU goods cheaper to sell in those countries.

  182. Dorothy Devine says:

    Wee Wales FANTASTIC!

  183. Macart says:


    Tomkins isn’t just the sharpest tool is he? Of course there are no negotiations, merely a fact finding mission to inform parliament. Mr Juncker was quite clear on no official meeting with members of the UK state until Article 50 had been triggered. Now whilst Scotland is a constituent component of the UK it cannot negotiate anything in its own right until it acquires statehood of its own. Which is kinda the point of the visit which was information.

    Is there any way in which Scotland can retain its EU membership whilst still party to the treaty of union? Cue multiple meetings with EU movers and shakers and the setting up of an advisory committee to inform Holyrood decision making. If the answer is no (which seems likely), move to … wait for it… plan ‘B’.

    Now I realise Mr Tomkins view may be somewhat coloured regarding the Scottish Government, but anyone who has been paying any kind of attention to releases by the SG over the past week knew this.

    Wonder if they have access to telly in chambers?

  184. Ruby says:

    Ken500 says:
    1 July, 2016 at 9:17 pm

    Any country EU or not can trade with any country in the world they want.

    Ruby replies

    It would be good to have a simple explanation of the Single market.

    I must admit I’m pretty confused with all this talk about new markets.

    This graph shows that the UK is already trading with countries outside the EU.

    Groovy graph! Eat your heart out Kev Average!

  185. yesindyref2 says:

    Interesing thing here, for both Scotland being in the EU in our own right, and the rUK making trade agreements after A50:

    As tariffs are relatively low in world trade today, trade barriers lie behind the customs borders: hence the EU aims to conclude Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreements (DCFTA) that, on top of removing tariffs, also open up markets on services, investment, public procurement and include regulatory issues.

    If the EU was to complete all its current free trade talks tomorrow, it could add 2.2% to the EU’s GDP or €275 billion. This is equivalent to adding a country as big as Austria or Denmark to the EU economy. In terms of employment, these agreements could generate 2.2 million new jobs or an additional 1% of the EU total workforce.

    Not something you’ll see on the BBC, nor the media that feeds off it – or feeds off reuters which also feeds off it in fact they all seem to go around in a feeding fenzy biting each others tails off while totally ignoring fresh untainted meat. Ho hum.

    Robert Peffers kicks everyone’s backside, even if we agree with him!

  186. Valerie says:

    Forgot to mention.

    Scotland does have a shadow Secretary of state. David Anderson from Blaydon..

    The nimble sleuths on Twitter tracked down a pic of him, up here in 2014, with Tories in the BT camp.

  187. call me dave says:


    Yup! Like your thinking there.

    @ Edward

    Keep updating us on that kind of stuff.

    PS:Hmm! Leek soup tomorrow sprouts are off! 🙂

  188. galamcennalath says:


    Michael Russell, “It’s absolutely outrageous that a prospective Prime Minister is now using a Leave vote to imply that Scotland’s budget could be slashed – just months after the Tories agreed a new financial settlement for Scotland.”

    Seems that they really do want Scotland to go its own way!

  189. Inverclyder says:

    Plaid need to have a referendum tomorrow after

    Wales 3
    Belgium 1

  190. sinky says:

    Gary Lineker now claiming Wales are British. Did he not see the celebration when Iceland won?

  191. Greannach says:

    UKIP MEP Cockburn looks like the sort of person with a dirty fridge.

  192. Ken500 says:

    Why doesn’t Westminster stop non Dom tax evaders, who break the Law, illegally bribing public officials. Giving tax evading Non Doms (not UK citizens) control the British Press against the Westminster Ministerial Code. In order to protect a free and balanced Press to ensure Democracy.

    In many countries only resident, taxpaying citizens are allowed to own businesses

    In the US any citizen/business who bribes public official anywhere in the world, can be charged.

    Murdoch is a US citizen because of his US interest and he bribed public officials, but is not charged. He denies it, despite evidence, and gets away with breaking the Law.

  193. Rock says:

    Kevin Evans,

    “Play the ball not the man is a good way to always be on this forum I think.”

    Ok, here is my ball.

    Scotland IS NOT a member of the EU. Never has been.

    Scotland is not included in the list of member states, neither does the Scottish flag fly outside EU institutions.

    The UK is the member, like it or not.

    As far as the EU is concerned, Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK.

    They don’t discuss membership with regions.

    No, they have abolutely did not DISCUSS anything with Nicola, and they will not until Brexit has been completed.

    They have simply politely LISTENED to her (they made that very clear) in wake of the Brexit vote fiasco and the convincing remain vote in Scotland.

    Let alone Spain, both France and Junker are on the record as saying that there will be no discussions with Scotland.

    “Scotland has earned the right to be HEARD, but we cannot interfere in the internal affairs of the UK” said Junker.

    It is not a matter of any individual country’s veto. The EU rules prevent the EU from discussing such matters with regions of internationally recognised countries/states.

    Scotland is NOT internationally recognised as a sovereign country/political state.

    There is ZERO chance of anyone from the EU discussing membership with Scotland until Brexit has been completed.

    There is ZERO chance of Scotland becoming a member of the EU without full independence from the UK.

    I therefore strongly believe that Nicola should very soon make it clear that Scotland cannot be a member of the EU without getting out of the UK.

    People don’t like being given false hopes. They appreciate the truth and at the moment Nicola has enormous goodwill.

    Then prepare the ground for an independence referendum to take place during the period of Brexit negotiations, for Scotland to be independent at latest by the time Brexit is complete.

    In that case, Scotland will have no problem in becoming a member of the EU very soon after independence with basically the same relationship as the UK currently has with the EU.

    If Scotland remains part of the UK at the time of Brexit, we will be in a big mess, with Westminster in charge of us.

    We should not be wasting time on trying to achieve something which is impossible to achieve – to remain in the UK and the EU as if nothing had happened.

    These are my personal views and I am not an expert on anything.

    Play the ball guys.

  194. Ken500 says:

    Mr Tomkin, the international Law ‘expert’ seems to know nothing about Scottish separate Legal system. What are his qualifications in Scottish Law. Or has Oxford awarded another dubious 1st Class Degree to a 2nd rate reject in a dodgy political system.

  195. Grouse Beater says:

    “Gary Lineker now claiming Wales are British.”

    Probably feels justified since they voted ‘Leave’.

  196. Tam The Bam says:

    Edward, can we pick your knowledge a bit further please?

    Do you have any thoughts on whether the current Scottish ports have enough capacity to quickly handle the volume of imports/exports rather than punting everything via English ports?

    Or how long it would take to create enough port infrastructure to be in a position to export/import most items directly via Scottish ports?

  197. Macart says:


    Seems Gove is still attempting to tap into that rather nasty ‘Jock bashing’ narrative and the traction it has gained amongst a particular demographic. He’s looking for what he considers populist policy which returns well from private polling.

    The mood in the UK at the moment? It may play well with a large sector of the public and that’s all the mercurial backers of the camps need to jump from one leadership candidate to the next.

    I agree though, I think May will go down this route herself, but with the stall she set out in her speech she’ll play that kind of policy on the down low in the hopes she doesn’t come across as quite so … barking.

  198. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ronnie Anderson –

    That’s not a dressing gown, it’s a hard-core smoking jacket!

    Frank Richards used to be in the Guinness Book of Records as the most prolific writer in English – he averaged 10,000 words a day, seven days a week. Seriously. And that was using one of yon ancient typewriters.

    What a shame he just wrote endless guff about Billy Bunter and all his jolly japes, helping form/disseminate the world-view of the Eton Boys and their ilk…

  199. heedtracker says:

    Macart says:
    1 July, 2016 at 9:43 pm

    Tomkins isn’t just the sharpest tool is he?

    Watch it! That’s my girlfriend. Prof T’s worth watching though as he clearly has no UKOK case. If he did have No EU status for his scotland region case, we’d all know about it. BBC Scotland would tell us, calmly and without their usual UKOK Project Fear hysterics.

    The EU clearly doesn’t want to lose members now and England had better get used to the concept that, whilst they do still decide all the big stuff for us, they cant actually dictate what happens to the Scots and their EU citizenship, with all its pretty staggering privileges, what they decided to bin. Or maybe they can. No one knows, yet?

  200. Ken500 says:

    Barnet Formula deprives Scotland of it’s full revenues raised in Scotland because of Westminster economic policies. Scotland is prevented from having full powers to run it’s own economy.That should be pointed out on any discussion of Barnet. Keeping supporting Barnett without qualification, adds to the myth that Scotland is subsided.

  201. Big Jock says:

    I agree with what you say. We need a referendum by next Spring. However don’t think for one minute Nicola doesn’t know that.

    Nicola does not expect anything other than goodwill from the Eu. She is buying time to get the referendum prepared. She is showing face and creating good mood music in the interim.

    The referendum is coming and I fully expect this to be tabled by October. Probably ratified by Wm in November and the vote in May 2017.

    The panel she appointed has already said independence is the only way to preserve Scotland in the Eu.

    I am impatient as well but I suspect many Snp Msps are too. It’s frustrating as we are in a kind of no man’s land at the moment. I am afraid it’s going to be a difficult few months ahead. But we will know what we are going by October.

  202. Fred says:

    @ Ruby, we import tartan carpets from England, beautiful quality but time we went back to making our own.

  203. Rock says:


    “His personal attacks on Peffers, no, they should stop.”


    Robert Peffers kicks everyone’s backside, even if we agree with him!

    So Robert Peffers can attack anyone but no one can attack him according to you?

    You wholeheartedly endorse Robert Peffers’ attack not only on me, but every single current SNP MP and MSP because they are playing by Westminster’s rules.

    Nicola didn’t say we don’t need Westminster’s permission to hold a second independence referendum.

    She said it would be wrong for Westminster to deny it.

    So Nicola too has been brainwashed by Westminster propaganda into thinking that we do need permission?

    As was Alex Salmond when he sought and signed an agreement with Westminster to give permission to hold a referendum, despite the SNP having a majority in the Scottish parliament?

    “The reason is the bloody clowns and congenital idiots exactly like you who meekly accept the Westminster Establishments propaganda as the stone cold truth.”

    No, Mr Peffers, we are not “bloody clowns and congenital idiots”.

    We recognise that we are still a colony of England after more than 300 years and we cannot become independent by invoking ancient treaties more dead than the dodo.

  204. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Rock.

    Before you type your latest epistle, do you actually read ALL the comments that have been posted since you last dipped in?

    The reason I ask is because you repeated your input from 8.32pm in your latest post at 10.02pm, totally disregarding Wingers who had referred to your 8.32pm post.

    I refer you to:-

    Of course, it could be the case that when you read a comment or comments that don’t fit in with your beliefs, you just ignore them.

    Are you “sensibledave”?

  205. Macart says:


    😀 LOL

    He might be in for a shock by the time article 50 is triggered. I don’t think he grasped the concept of ‘unprecedented’.

    Perhaps we should crowd fund a telly though. 🙂

  206. Tam Jardine says:


    Mongo only pawn in game of life, but cheers.

    I alluded to my job earlier- I was reflecting that I have one of the least transferable skills imaginable. I do carpet planning which involves software on straightforward jobs but on complex jobs or for various other dull reasons I end up with the graph paper and scale ruler out. It is my expertise- I might even be the Muhammad Ali of carpet planning- who knows.

    Some jobs you have a limited quantity of material and all these areas to fit and you end up trying all kinds of strategies- spinning bits round- trimming here and there, moving joins etc to try and get it all to work. But ultimately if there isnae enough gear no amount of mucking about staring at a bit of paper will change that.

    This seems to be what Westminster and the media are doing right now – trying to make something work that quite simply doesnae work and somebody has got to call up the customer and break the bad news.

    The UK government finds itself trapped between the EU and the English public; between the markets and the English public; between Scotland and the English public in a cosmic clusterfuck they themselves created. And the press in the UK are so partisan, political and useless that they failed in their duty to give the politicians even the most rudimentary scrutiny.

    The entire political, metropolitan class stands accused of destroying the UK. No wonder they are at each other’s throats- a guid distraction for the masses who might defer getting the pitchforks and torches out for a wee while.

  207. yesindyref2 says:

    My guess is that Tomkins and the Secretary of State for North Britain, Dave Anderson from Sunderland, will soon be bestest pals, along with David Mundell. North Britain Rules, KO?

  208. Bob Mack says:


    Just saw a fantastic design for a badge etc on Facebook. It is a pair of hands clasped in a heart shape. One hand in the saltire and the other is the EU flag.

    It would be a lovely addition to a referendum campaign.

  209. Thepnr says:

    There will come a day when all supporters of Independence stand alongside each other and say no more. There will be SNP supporters, Greens, Labour, Tory, Lib Dems and others.

    Rich or poor, tinkies and minkies, black and white, yellow brown and pale.

    Yes, Scotland will be Independent when the Scottish public of all shades and colours chose to be so.

    ALL are welcome, vote for a better future, vote Yes. Tories more than welcome xx

  210. Rock says:

    Big Jock,

    “However don’t think for one minute Nicola doesn’t know that.”

    Of course she does.

    But my fear is if she does not clarify that to the people very soon, she will lose some of the goodwill and will be relentlessly attacked by the unionists for ‘misleading’ the people having known all along.

    Then the likes of JK Rowling, McLeish, the Record will all close ranks to unite the unionists against a referendum and independence.

    The SNP are in a strong postion because they have been straightforward and the lies of Better Together have been fully exposed.

    Strike while the iron is hot.

  211. Rock says:

    Brian Doonthetoon,

    “Hi Rock.

    Before you type your latest epistle, do you actually read ALL the comments that have been posted since you last dipped in?

    The reason I ask is because you repeated your input from 8.32pm in your latest post at 10.02pm, totally disregarding Wingers who had referred to your 8.32pm post.

    I refer you to:-

    Of course, it could be the case that when you read a comment or comments that don’t fit in with your beliefs, you just ignore them.

    Are you “sensibledave”?”

    Nice to know that you are playing the ball not the man.

  212. Petra says:

    I see there’s talk of the Tories dragging their heels now in relation to triggering A50. Will the Brexiters accept this or start (mass) protesting?


    Thanks for the apology Stoker. Accepted. Let’s move on now and deal with the over-riding issue …. Indyref2.


    Brexit has proven to be a great excuse for Osborne to cover up his total botch-up of the economy. Gove’s backstabbing has proven to be a great excuse for Boris getting out of being PM. A position that he doesn’t want now.


    Does anyone else on here remember Gove stating that if Brexit won Scotland would get control over immigration? I can’t remember which debate he was involved in but the Brain family were mentioned. They’re due to be slung out of Scotland on the 1st of August. Will Gove prevent this from happening albeit prior to immigration being devolved or is it just one of the many VOWS made to Scotland that have ultimately been broken? You’ll know of course that I’m only asking a question that we all know the answer to. If the Brains are allowed to stay in Scotland it’ll be down to their lawyer as Gove will do nought.

  213. ronnie anderson says:

    Congratulations to our Celtic cousins whits it aboot these wee countries getting above there stations, n showing that the kin kick ah baw.

  214. yesindyref2 says:

    First thing I’m going to do when we get Independence is get a good night’s sleep.

  215. heedtracker says:

    Macart says:
    1 July, 2016 at 10:27 pm

    ? LOL

    He might be in for a shock by the time article 50 is triggered. I don’t think he grasped the concept of ‘unprecedented’.

    Check his Glasgow uni bio. Its all here, he’s their EU constitutional specialist, but he’s got diddly squat.

    He specialises in constitutional law and has research interests in British, EU and comparative constitutional law, as well as in aspects of constitutional theory and constitutional history. In 2009 he was appointed a legal adviser to the House of Lords Select Committee on the Constitution.

  216. Breeks says:

    Rock @ 10.02

    All that you say is perfectly plausible Rock. Most of it I fully agree with, however looking down the line, Scotland might easily find itself trying to sell the concept of a UDI to large section of our population which didn’t vote yes in 2014. If that circumstance arises, Nicola can make a plausible argument that all other avenues have been assessed, and its UDI or bust.
    I agree that Europe can’t conclude any negotiations, and is sailing close to the wind to negotiate with Scotland where it represents interfering with a sovereign member state.
    However, supposing there is nothing to be gained beyond mere courtesy and communication, that can only help avoid nasty surprises and establish trust and intent which will help with negotiations when they do start.

  217. Bob Mack says:

    Re the post by Chic McGregor about the EU possibly expelling England from the organisation.

    I have checked up on this ,and although there is no precedent, there is a provision in the Treaty, article 7 (2), which provides for the indefinite suspension of a member state with unanimous agreement.

    The suspension nullifies all rights and privileges of the member until either they leave or are reinstated by the members voting.

    There is a way for the EU to pressure the UK after all.

  218. Socrates MacSporran says:

    As regards Michael Gove; he is rather growing on me – if only on the basis: any guy who can so piss-off Anna Soubry and Boris has to have something going for him. But, we must remember – he is still a Tory.

    By the way,Rock is correct – Scotland is not a state/political entity with which the EU can negotiate.

    There may well be secret talks going on; we can be fairly certain Eu officials are keeping a close watch on events, they will probably be forging links with Scottish Government civil servants, but, until such times as an independent Scotland pitches for membership, they will beunable to confirm any talks, or even actually hold formal talks.

    However, I firmly believe, an independent Scotland will be quickly nodded through as EU members, since, we already are EU compliant on so many fronts.

  219. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland’s FM went to Brussels on a charm offensive but also to put Scotlnd’s case firmly in the minds and hearts of the officials of the EU

    In doing so she succeeded on two important fronts

    ONE: She countered the UK position on the Scottish National Party being in any way similar to right wing unpleasant parties within Europe as described by David Cameron

    TWO: She made clear the position of the other parties in Holyrood and the support for the EU in the country at large

    There is however one more aside: If anyone hasn’t met the FM I can assure you she is the most warm amusing and smart person you could meet and when she talks to you she looks directly at you interested in what you have to say, however mundane that sometimes may be

    The officials of the EU got to see that and as our representative in the world I for one am ever so grateful to her for it
    Now some folk think that was all a waste of time and I have to say that says more about their character than our First Ministers

    If our FM had just stayed home and had a curry then announced a referendum I wonder what these same miserable folk would be saying when the opposition parties complained that Nicola Sturgeon had done nothing and this was planned all the time, would these same people have been saying she should have done something to at least make it look like she was trying

    We know who some of these pedantic miserable people are right here on WOS so instead of being petulant children and stamping wee feet, get your brain to take a step back and have a bit of respect for others opinions and feelings before launching into denigrating drivel against people who’s aims are the same but may look at how to get to the same place slightly differently

    And that’s MY opinion and arguing with it won’t make it reverse itself or make the roof fall in and nobody will die

  220. Brian McHugh says:

    What an utter joke, the Shaddow Scottish Secretary not being a Scottish MP.

    I would normally be upset at this complete slate and disrespect shown to Scotland, but being a Labour MP, at least he is never going to be in any position to do Scotland any harm.

  221. Chic McGregor says:

    “@ Ruby, we import tartan carpets from England, beautiful quality but time we went back to making our own.”

    We could call them Axewestminster, just to rub it in.

  222. Edward says:

    yesindyref2 @ 8.14 pm
    Agree with your assessment, that it will likely be a ‘Third country/EU’ agreement
    I’ve framed it as ‘Third country/EU’ as there are other countries such as South Korea
    who have a bilateral agreement for preferential status.

    But none the less it will cost buyers/importers more to buy goods from the EU, even if the
    Duty rate is 0%, as all goods will have to be cleared customs in the same manner as currently
    happens for good from all countries (third Country) outside the EU.

    In addition transit times for road freight will be slowed down, due to the need for each truck having to be cleared before proceeding. This will effect express services and inter UK/EU air cargo that connects air cargo hubs that have grown up during the course of the free trade era

  223. Edward says:

    Liz g @ 8.19 pm
    I don’t think there will be any adverse effect for European owned companies
    that have a presence in the UK that are in utilities.
    companies like Thames Water (German owned) and EDF Energy (French)
    will continue to function within normal parameters as there market is purely within the UK as
    far as utilities are concerned.
    However other companies, such as service, Banking, Electronics, Engineering, Car manufacturing will be a different matter as there market is both inside and outside the UK. Those set up to serve both UK and the EU, will be considering now there position, especially if they set up in the UK to supply the EU.
    You have to understand the current system is, complete free movement, for example a truck load of components going from Glenrothes to Frankfurt, is just as easy as one going from Glenrothes to Manchester. No border formality, so straightforward, But if you introduce customs formalities, even electronic, you start adding to the movement. So if the bigger market is in the EU, you could have companies moving to another country that’s in the EU to ensure smooth distribution.

    Would love to do an article, perhaps Stuart can interview me ;), as mentioned in another comment I tend to forget to stop writing ?

  224. Edward says:

    Cal @ 8.38 pm
    Yes I think you may have misunderstood as I was talking about the UK as a whole and not an independent Scotland.
    Ok so what would happen if the England is out of the EU and an independent Scotland is in the EU
    We have a perfect example not far from Scotland, in the shape of Norway and Sweden.
    All cargo trucks crossing the border have to stop at a border post to have paperwork checked and stamped, before proceeding on to final destination. I understand that for road freight clearance is done at destination terminal electronically.
    As for people travelling, they have free movement and don’t stop for passport control or checking, indeed those living in Norway close to the border with Sweden go shopping and some work cross border, so no hindrance.

    Coming back to the situation of EU goods transiting England to or from an EU Scotland, would have something similar to the existing C21 coastwise bond. In other words a simplified set up where transit goods arrive at an English port, an electronic declaration is processed, the truck is sealed and it then proceeds directly to Scotland

  225. Edward says:

    Cearc @ 8.46 pm
    It would be interesting to do a detailed article for both businessforscotland and WOS
    But would need to know what specific information and background would be of interest as the danger is that I would write something akin to War and Peace 😉

    Your right that there is an awful lot of business have no idea, some are quite scary and makes me wonder how they stay in business.

  226. Rock says:


    “Nicola can make a plausible argument that all other avenues have been assessed, and its UDI or bust.”

    Yes, but she needs to be pretty quick in saying this to the public so as to retain all the goodwill.

    See also my comment at 10:33 pm.

  227. Edward says:

    Ruby @8.57pm
    I’m not actually sure what your comment is about and possibly have miss understood what I have written

  228. Ken500 says:

    If goods are going to Europe by road. Lorry is the cheapest way is go down the motorways and through the Tunnel or Channel. Container lorries go to Tilbury Docks 26 miles to transport goods overseas in container boats. Thatcher built Tilsbury Docks with Scotland’s Oil revenues.

    Oil is transferred in massive Oil tanker vessels. As the Oil rigs age. Massive new rig ferry ships are taking Oil directly from the pipe lines and transporting it. Instead of building a new rig in place, massive floating rig tankers are doing the work.

    Goods are transported with regard to costs. Air freight is the most expensive on average. Suitable for perishable or high value goods. Ferries from Scotland to the Continent are more expensive. Some services direct from Scotland were cut because they were under used. They were more expensive by comparison. The Scottish Gov could subsidise vital transport services.

    The Scottish Gov are investing £Millions into transport infrastructure. Building essential roads and new rail projects. Electrifying lines and cutting journey time. The journey from Glasgow to Edinburgh is being cut to 30mins with more frequent services. The rail unions want conductors on the service. A 30 minute service could manage. Staff could help people on and off the trains in the station. People have mobile phones to report any trouble. Conductors are needed on longer journeys. There will be more trains and a more frequent service, so there will be more drivers earning more. Train drivers earn £50,000 a year. Other lines are going to be electrified and journey times cut, with better rolling stock.

    They are introducing more direct air flights from Scotland for easier, quicker journeys with less expensive over night stays.

  229. Kevin Evans says:

    i don’t dispute the problems we face ahead Rock but I think you also need to factor in that “games a bogie” now.

    From what I’ve heard it seems pretty clear to me Nicolas meetings in Europe has been the first steps to Scotland’s negotiations with the EU and she has been told the EU can’t talk to Scotland about membership until it is independent but once independence has been achieve they do not see a problem Scotland being an EU member.

    The grey area seems to revolve around continued membership.

  230. Thepnr says:

    The new Yes flags fundraier more than a third of the way there. Bag yours now and help support the next fight for Independence.

  231. Chic McGregor says:

    @Bob Mack

    Yeah! Bob, I knew that.

    Came up when May, Grayling et al were first threatening to leave the ECHR because it was cramping their ultra-right style.

    If they did and if human rights in the UK were infringed the EU could, or so I was advised by EUROPA, impose punitive measures up to suspension of voting rights, which would effectively force them out.

    However, ulthough expulsion itself is not yet prescribed in treaty, they could still bring forth the required enabling legislation and/or do so by an extraordinary general meeting of member states.

  232. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Rock.

    I think I give up…

  233. Rock says:

    Socrates MacSporran,

    “There may well be secret talks going on; we can be fairly certain Eu officials are keeping a close watch on events, they will probably be forging links with Scottish Government civil servants”

    They will definitely be keeping a close watch on events.

    But apart from Nicola’s visit to Brussels, I really don’t think they can even have secret contact with Scottish Government civil servants.

    “Secret”? The UK secret services would tell the unionists and the British establishment straight away!

    Scotland is currently simply “powerless”, “incompetent”, “impotent”, “has no authority”, whatever phrase you use, to discuss membership with the EU.

    Just make that very clear to the population very soon, see the reaction, and call an independence referendum at the best possible time.

  234. Thepnr says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon

    You never give up. Else where would we be?

  235. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, that’s enough for me for the time being about articles and protocols and agreements and realpolitik, until of course, I’m proven to be totally correct in everything I say.

  236. Rock says:

    Brian Doonthetoon,

    “Hi Rock.

    I think I give up…”

    The ball is still there.

    Play the ball, not the man.

  237. yesindyref2 says:

    Or totally wrong of course, it’s sausage to me as the BBC would probably translate. One wall free, top of the mountain!

  238. heedtracker says:

    Most important thing to keep mind trade UK, EU, rest of the world, WTO wise, there’s nothing now and never has been any EU regulation actually stopping the UK trading with the rest of the world.

    My Slovene girlfriend says on rancid The Graun Btl.

    1 Jul 2016 12:55
    22 Recommend In response to Wombat96
    Perhaps when the UK tells Merkel that German cars will only be allowed into the UK under WTO rules the Little-Eurozoners in the EU might just get a global view, but even then I’m not too sure

    The EU is not preventing the UK from trading with the rest of the world.

    Germany exports three times more to China than the UK, and 20% more to the Commonwealth countries than the UK. So much for “Little-Eurozoners”.

    Myth: If the UK leaves the EU, it could re-embrace the Commonwealth

    Reality: The Commonwealth accounts for a relatively small proportion of demand for UK goods and services. The potential is limited. And being in the EU does not prevent the UK from expanding its trade with Commonwealth economies in the first place.

    The top 50 UK export destinations account for 95% of total UK exports. Only 10 of the UK’s top 50 export destinations are Commonwealth nations (Gibraltar included).

    The top Commonwealth trading partners together account for a mere 8% of total UK exports. This pales in comparison to the 17 EU countries in the top 50, which account for 46% of total UK exports.

    The export share going to the Commonwealth is also below the share of exports to countries with which the UK already has some form of trade agreement through EU membership.

    This group of nine countries accounts for 9% of total exports. This figure is marginally higher if you include South Africa (Commonwealth) that also has a trade agreement with the EU.

    The remaining 14 countries, that are neither in the Commonwealth nor in the EU and with whom the EU and hence the UK do not have some form of trade agreement make up 33% of total exports.

    Examples of other countries within the EU, such as Germany, show there is nothing stopping the UK expanding its trade with non-EU economies or fast growing emerging markets. Germany exports almost 20% more than the UK to the major Commonwealth economies – and over three times as much as the UK to China.”

    She know her onions, British Onions!

  239. call me dave says:

    More than a third of voters believe Britain may end up remaining in EU

  240. Rock says:

    Brian Doonthetoon,

    “Hi Rock.

    I think I give up…”


    “@Brian Doonthetoon

    You never give up. Else where would we be?”

    No, you don’t.

    But playing the ball is really more enjoyable than playing the man.

  241. mike cassidy says:

    For those pondering the future of fishing post brexit –

    a must read

  242. Sassenach says:

    DrJim says ” If anyone hasn’t met the FM I can assure you she is the most warm amusing and smart person you could meet and when she talks to you she looks directly at you interested in what you have to say, however mundane that sometimes may be”

    I totally agree with that (having met her on three occasions this last year) – she just seems to radiate honesty and trust, so rare for a politician!

    I would also say that it was noticeable when me and my young grandson were at Holyrood for FMQs that, afterwards, every SNP MSP we bumped into in corridors , lifts and dining room made a point of speaking to him – I could not say the same for Ms Bailie, however, my grandson didn’t even get a nod when she passed us at the dining room door.

    I can fully understand Nicola ‘charming’ then in Brussels!

  243. Thepnr says:

    C’mon admit it. Who forgot to lock the back door?

  244. Rock says:

    Dr Jim,

    “Now some folk think that was all a waste of time and I have to say that says more about their character than our First Ministers”

    The First Minister going on a “charm offensive” in Brussels was ABSOLUTELY NOT a waste of time.

    She did the right thing.

    But now, very soon, she must make it absolutely clear to the Scottish population that was the most she and Scotland could do as part of the UK:

    Big Jock,

    “The panel she appointed has already said independence is the only way to preserve Scotland in the Eu.”

    Now, AFTER the visit, everything other than preparing for independence, is a waste of time.

  245. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock –

    ‘Scotland is currently simply “powerless”, “incompetent”, “impotent”, “has no authority”, whatever phrase you use, to discuss membership with the EU.

    Just make that very clear to the population very soon, see the reaction, and call an independence referendum at the best possible time.’


    Enough is enough.

    ‘Rock’ is now openly propagating the roots of civil unrest, hoping someone here will be daft enough to rise to it.

    It should be no surprise – it’s simply an extension of what he’s been doing here all along by sowing conflict amongst regulars.

  246. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Thepnr.

    I think, when it comes to ‘debating’ with a certain ‘Winger’, I’d now rather spend time evaluating 42 – while there are still some fish that the dolphins didn’t have to be thankful for.

  247. Rock says:

    Kevin Evans,

    “she has been told the EU can’t talk to Scotland about membership until it is independent but once independence has been achieve they do not see a problem Scotland being an EU member.”

    Exactly, but only if Scotland is independent and ready at the moment Brexit is completed.

    Start the preparations and tell the population very soon.

  248. Ruby says:

    Edward says:
    1 July, 2016 at 10:49 pm

    Ruby @8.57pm
    I’m not actually sure what your comment is about and possibly have miss understood what I have written

    Ruby replies

    You dear! My post was in reply to a post made by cearc

    ‘cearc says:
    1 July, 2016 at 8:46 pm


    I think it might be well for you to submit a detailed article for (as well as here).

    I think there are an awful lot of businesses that have no idea how much paperwork they will be hit with post-brexit. Pre-EU you could always spot a companies shipping department by the stacks of stuff everywhere.’

    Do you get it now? Probably not! 🙂

    What I was trying to say was the businesses in Scotland will not need your expertise as Scotland will be in the EU. Businesses in England on the other hand will need your advice but I suggested you wait until they press the A50 button incase you scare businesses in England who will then try to stop Brexit.

    I totally ignored the whole EU Ref debate so I have no idea if businesses in England were aware of all the paperwork involved surely they must have been.

    Please do not worry if you are confused by my posts I’m pretty sure many others feel the same. 🙂

  249. galamcennalath says:

    call me dave says:

    “More than a third of voters believe Britain may end up remaining in EU”

    I had to read that twice, and then after reading the Herald article I’m even more flabbergasted!

    I am serious starting to feel the EU are delighted at the opportunity to get shot of England! The UK is going out, and Scotland with it if we don’t act.

    I know the referendum isn’t binding and WM could just ignore it, but it seems highly likely to happen one way and another. And, a third still doubt it?

    Mind you, from the actual referendum vote we know there are some very deluded and gullible voters around.

  250. Petra says:

    I’ve just read through a post where the person in question stated “there is ZERO chance of anyone from the EU discussing membership with Scotland until Brexit has been completed.”

    Well I don’t really agree with that statement at all. As I see it Nicola knows fine and well that she’s going to call Indyref2 in the very near future and is well prepared for doing so (currency, pensions, economy etc).

    Right now she’s going through the legal / constitutional motions, such as setting up the team of experts, to ensure that she’s not accused of being dictatorial / undemocratic.

    As soon as she receives confirmation by the team that there is no other recourse to remaining in the EU other than Independence she’ll outline their findings to the Nation and inform us all that she’s now triggering Indyref2.

    This would have to take place following the UK triggering Article 50: NOT following UK Brexit. Scotland could be free of Westminster long before their negotiations are finalised.

    I’m not a UK or EU constitutional expert of course so accept that I may be wrong about this however it seems to be in line with mainstream (expert) opinion.

  251. Thepnr says:

    Scotland and it’s people are just shite good for nothing chancers.

  252. cearc says:


    I am sure BfS would help you to put something together that is useful both for their members and the greater public campaign. Ask them..

    The EU has said that will enter no negotiations or pre-negotiations prior to Brexit being completed. So there would certainly be a period when all EU trade would be subject to WTO. So even if they already trade outwith the EU there would be substantial delays due to lack of capacity to deal with it.

    I can’t imagine that the UK government would plan ahead for the scenario (Remember the fridge mountain? Years to plan before it came into effect and they had done nothing.)

  253. yesindyref2 says:

    More Southampton I think than Tilbury. Far less of the Channel to ponder through.

  254. Thepnr says:

    Those that post post repeated pish on Wings are worse than chancers. They are deluded fools.

  255. Big Jock says:

    Bob regarding expulsion from the Eu.The only warranty on that clause is that a country that wants to remain a member cannot be kicked out. However in England’s case they don’t want to remain.

    All it takes is the 27 nations to agree the expulsion. Then it’s UDI for Scotland. DO you know what so many strange things have happened I wouldn’t rule it out.

  256. Edward says:

    Tam the Bam @ 10.07 pm

    The problem with current Scottish ports are a mix of being in the wrong place and under developed
    Shipping lines want deep water access that is now reliant on tide, so that ships can arrive at any time around the clock and be worked fast and turned around. There has to be a very large container area to enable large scale processing (consider each ship can have the capacity of 15,000 to 19,000 teu (teu being 20 foot or equivalent)), so you want space to be able to land between 5000 and 15000 teu inwards and the same out, so space for around 20,000 teu on the dock at any one time for one ship, plus the space to hold containers while they clear customs.

    You need motorway standard road infrastructure to connect that port, plus a rail head and rail infrastructure to also connect the port to the rail network.

    Associated with the port, you will need off port facilities to enable the handling of LCL cargo (Lesser Container Load), customs and freight agent facilities. This is normally a large industrial warehouse park area.

    Existing Scottish ports such as Leith, doesn’t cut it as it’s a tidal port, hence it needs dock gates.
    Grangemouth might be ok, but it’s up river, away from the coast
    One possible ideal location is Rosyth, where they have deep water facility

    There is a pdf information sheet issued by SDI on the port…/energy%20ports/babcock%20rosyth%20factsheet.pdf

    As far as I can see nothing much has been done to get this moving, I could be wrong.
    I am aware that Forth Ports (owners of Grangemouth, Methil and Leith) placed objections, which I though was a bit rich considering that they have done nothing to develop any proper port development that would complete properly

  257. Cal says:

    Am I the only person who’s starting to get the impression that the UK won’t ever invoke Article 50? Seems the EU is not able to force the issue either. They are being held to ransom. Could the UK government just kick the thing into the long grass and forget about it until their next general election? Will this lead to the death of the EU? Is thst the UK’s game plan? I’m amazed at the English public’s patience with their idiot polititions. Will they wake up and realize they’re being taken for a ride? No sign of it so far.

  258. Thepnr says:

    If only wings had a seer, an expert to guide me into the light

  259. galamcennalath says:

    Hilarious how in English Tory circle they describe someone who was ‘grammar school’ educated as being ordinary!

    Grammar schools were selective and elitist. Comprehensive schools are what the rest of us attended.

    Suppose all things are relative – normal Tories go to Eton.

  260. Ruby says:

    If the UK don’t brexit they will never be able to run another referendum ever. Well they could but I can’t see anyone bothering to vote.

    Imagine saying to voters we will have a referendum but if you don’t vote the way we want your vote will be ignored.

    I can’t see any great rush for Nicola to start campaigning people in Scotland haven’t forgotten what was said just a couple of years ago in the IndyRef + they are very aware of what has happened since then.

    It might be a good idea to wait for 60% of the population to demand a referendum before Nicola does anything other than having in depth discussions behind closed doors.

  261. Grouse Beater says:

    How to spread doubt and dissent – Rule One.

    1. Join a social site, and after declaring yourself a firm supporter of the cause therein, ignoring requests for proof conclusive, instead argue blind SNP policies are counter-productive and dangerously underwhelming, their tactics misguided, and accuse anybody who disagrees as aiding opponents of Scotland’s ambitions.

    How to reinforce doubt – Rule Two

    When confronted always respond by claiming you’re a victim of knee jerk reaction and wilful misunderstanding. Ensure you goad the questioner by suggesting he or she is doing the work of your mutual critics by questioning your intentions.

    By that method you keep sceptics guessing as to your integrity and agenda.

  262. Thepnr says:

    thar’s me I’ve had it. What’s the point of Independence when we’re not going to get it anyway.

    There all against us, the EU will not talk to us and Westminster just ignores us. As I say I’ve had enough, let’s forget about Independence, a stupid idea anyway.

    I’m off to bed and know that when I wake up tomorrow at least the UK will still be here and waiting for me. We should all pull together for our country. Let’s have no more of this “sepratist” crap.

    I don’t want to be a foreigner in my own country. OK!

  263. carjamtic says:


    They say you only need two ‘tools’ in life….duct tape and WD40.


  264. yesindyref2 says:

    If there’s one thing you can rely on, it’s that politicians will act like politicians. The clever trick is not to.

  265. Grouse Beater says:

    An EC commissioner states:

    “Discussions on transitional arrangements for an indy Scotland to remain in the EU after the UK leaves – are indeed taking place in Brussels.”

    PS: Did more than me notice Farage’s Union Jack is upside down on his EU parliament table? Very symbolic.


  266. Thepnr says:


    “May is sturdy, severe, authoritative. She has that stern matronly quality which a part of the British psyche finds attractive, the strong thwack of firm government in times of crisis.”

    Now that’s my kind of gal. Get behind her and give her your support you stupid Scots plebs.

  267. Grouse Beater says:

    “May is sturdy, severe, authoritative. She has that stern matronly quality which a part of the British psyche finds attractive, the strong thwack of firm government.”

    In an S&M brothel she’s called the dominatrix!

    PS: For ‘British’ read ‘English’.

  268. Connor McEwen says:

    Football dampener analogy.
    Iceland beat England, Wales beat Belgium, Leicester win the English league, Rangers beat Celtic in Scottish cup.
    All with less resources than their foes.

    Oh aye now
    Britain cannot afford to shop at Farmfoods never mind Iceland on exiting Europe.
    Johanne Lamont and BBC might be right

  269. Thepnr says:

    May for Prime Minister. Anybody disagree?

  270. mike cassidy says:

    For those having trouble sleeping because of this pesky brexit stuff –

    this wont help at all!

    Pleasant dreams, all!

  271. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Only Rev Stu knows what comments this site has received from Scottish Nationalist extremists, and how many (if any) have been deleted.

    For all we know there may have been hundreds, nay thousands!

    Cybernats are scary enough, but real, proper, big hairy in-yer-face freedom-fighters?!


    How many have been here, perhaps without our knowing?

    The mere thought of it is enough to prompt involuntary moistness, eh?

    Well, let’s not ignore the fact that powerful interests would very-much like to see such chattery, and would especially like to see it happen right here.

    ‘Just sayin”, as they say…

  272. Thepnr says:

    I hate to say this but it’s a fact!

    Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid to be Independent.


  273. Dcanmore says:

    The UK is toast…

    Financial reports say that public debt will reach 100% GDP by 2018, UK will enter a recession that will be difficult to get out of in any meaningful timescale. Carney has said there will be another £250bn available when needed. This is printing money for the banks (Quantative Easing). It won’t do anything for the economy and the £Pound will slide further. If anyone has seen Mark Carney on telly recently he looks like he’s aged 10 years in the past week, he knows what’s around the corner.

    There is a shock coming…

    The next budget, November probably, after the new PM is in office, is going to try and counter Britain’s Brexit headache as well as following Tory ideology. So far Osborne hasn’t met one target since he became chancellor so something is going to give. Public spending will slashed like never before and another round of mass privatisations will take place. This will be an emergency budget in all but name, no spooking the markets. Austerity is here for another 10 years.

    Shipbuilding could end on the Clyde as the T26 order is cancelled (cost £5-8bn) and defence as a whole will be slashed once again (a carrier sold off). T26 frigate building programme is currently on hold by the UK Government for a reason. Osborne will always go for the easiest targets first. Barnett Formula will go too.

    Lesser of two evils…

    Scotland would still need to have a binding agreement with Westminster for a referendum, just as before. But who will give Scotland the referendum it needs? It won’t be Gove. This guy is an unpredictable fruitcake and being Scottish it would be an embarrassment for him to lose Scotland in England’s time of need, the backlash would be paramount and he would have to exit like Boris. Gove will not agree to another Scottish Referendum.

    Teresa May would. It’s my belief that May is a Little Englander first, and a closet Brexiter. She couldn’t care less about Scotland on any level, nor the rest of the UK for that matter. I think it’s England she truly desires, the SE powerbase for all it’s money and influence. Like Cameron, I think she will grant a Referendum thinking that she might win it anyway and boost her standing but no heartache if Scotland goes, most of the UK expects it now.

    No General Election…

    After the PM is selected why should there be one? The Tories are in power until 2020 and have a majority. To call an early GE would allow angry Brexiters to vote UKIP in numbers to make sure Article 50 was enacted upon. We’re in limbo now, we will see through the Brexit fog around November time when all cards are on the table and the manoeuvering begins. I expect the EU not to move an inch on free movement and PM May will trigger article 50 and Scotland to have its IndyRef2.

    Scots wha hae…

    Nicola Sturgeon and the team has done brilliantly this past week. I am certain that lessons have been learned since IndyRef and new persuasive arguments are being drawn up. I believe it is only a matter of time before Scotland is free from this sinking Titanic that has been created and independence will be declared within two years. I hope it will be a relatively short campaign with knockout blows.

    Beware, snakes!

    The usual suspects will rear their heads to keep Scotland in the Union. Tories and Red Tories alike will combine but the serpent won’t be as strong as before. The UK and its Establishment are diminished but retain influence and money, the BBC will be their weapon of choice once again. If Gove is PM he’ll probably send in the tanks and flatten Holyrood.

    Chilcott is next week…

    Goodbye Labour Party (Corbyn), hello the New Labour Democratic & Liberal Party (sans Corbyn).

  274. donnywho says:

    Off Topic.Does anybody else find the Actors “tableau” for the Somme anything bit repellent propaganda.

    I left this on the Scotsman (yes i know)

    Aye lets please forget this was a war of the Cousins, millions died for royal families and for what? And a hundred years later we have a costume party to puff up our Nationalism once again.

    Do you remember one poet who was actually there telling you of the heroism or sacrifice… No just the bloody slaughter, had 25 out of a hundred of these actors been covered in blood and in the rigor of death then you get what was going on. No Blue suits for the war causalities, no cripples, no shell shocked just a vignette for the gullible. This is not remembering what they went through, this is not the War to end all Wars as the survivors hoped. How do you honor those that drowned in blood and mud?

    Do you do it with a pantomime, a sanitized tableau, this mockery would surely disgust those that fought and died with their friends.

    The Brave and the Beautiful the Flower of a generation reduced to sanitized Rent a Props.

    My grandfather was gassed in the war and though he survived he died early from water on the lung. Proud of his courage yes. But angrier of the waste, i listened to him drown in his own fluids when i was ten.

  275. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Question –

    Why does Rock refer to the ‘the population’?

    ‘Start the preparations and tell the population very soon.’ (11.23)

    What’s that all about?

    He’s not talking about ‘Scottish people’, ‘The Scots’…he’s not even talking about ‘us’.

    We’re just ‘the population’.


  276. cearc says:


    Hey, think of all they ‘big things’ needing to come up the road as manufacturing relocates.

  277. Rock says:


    “Right now she’s going through the legal / constitutional motions, such as setting up the team of experts, to ensure that she’s not accused of being dictatorial / undemocratic.

    As soon as she receives confirmation by the team that there is no other recourse to remaining in the EU other than Independence she’ll outline their findings to the Nation and inform us all that she’s now triggering Indyref2.”

    Big Jock,

    “The panel she appointed has already said independence is the only way to preserve Scotland in the Eu.”

  278. yesindyref2 says:

    Perhaps he’s saying we should go forth and populate?

  279. yesindyref2 says:

    Contracts fellah, contracts. We need to get our public liability sorted.

  280. Lenny Hartley says:

    Donnywho my Grandfather also died young after being gassed on the Somme.
    I would send every Schoolkid to the Menin Gate and take part in the daily evening ceremony.
    The Few that become MP’s would never take the country they represent to War again..

    (except apart from the English who seem to like that sort of thing)

  281. Thepnr says:

    Know what? It’s easy to be on one side or the other. I’m on the side of Independence and will argue my case against any and all.

    Sure let’s not feed the troll but let’s not let the troll run free in saying whatever he/she likes.

    This is all a bit sad and distracting but you want to know want, I believe it is necessary to keep the trolls at bay. Have a wee look at the Scotsman or the Herald to see the result of when they are are allowed to run unfettered.

    I speak only for myself and if I’m unhappy about any post I may or may not say something. That’s my choice and I need no one permission. I like to kid myself that I am doing for the greater good. Maybe I’m wrong but maybe I’m right.

    If you feel the same as me then all that matters is gaining Independence and that is why this website exists in the first place.

    See if you REALLY pay attention then you will notice those that start the acrimony despite their remonstrations and attempts at blaming others.

    This site is only about Independence. That’s why I’m here.

  282. Grouse Beater says:

    Donnywho: “Does anybody else find the Actors “tableau” for the Somme anything bit repellent propaganda.

    I find the whole pantomime distasteful.

    It’s as if Joan Littlewoods’s ‘Oh What a Lovely War’ never existed. Thousands died, poets and peasants alike, because we trusted generals as if superior beings, and here we are commemorating death again while in endless wars killing far more in greater numbers than died in the Somme.

    Even if you want to bow your head in respect why say bugger all about the millions who died of other nations, or ignore the drones sent to kill in our name?

  283. Rock says:

    Grouse Beater,

    “An EC commissioner states:

    “Discussions on transitional arrangements for an indy Scotland to remain in the EU after the UK leaves – are indeed taking place in Brussels.””

    Any idea which EU commissioner STATED that?

    And the media in which the quoted statement was reported?

  284. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Edward.

    You typed,
    “Shipping lines want deep water access that is now [not?] reliant on tide, so that ships can arrive at any time around the clock and be worked fast and turned around.”

    Reads like you’re describing Dundee, the poor little wean of the Forth Ports’ empire.

  285. Grouse Beater says:

    Rock the Cock: Any idea which EU commissioner STATED that?

    Yes. But you can do your own homework.

  286. Onwards says:

    Alex Massie thinks a referendum isn’t likely before a Brexit takes place. The deficit, and too much uncertainty..

    Part of me agrees it would be a hard sell. Do we have a better chance by waiting a few years or not ?

    I suppose it all depends on if we have the opportunity for seamless EU membership. There will be just as much uncertainty in the UK’s position, so maybe the “uncertainty” is an advantage this time. Before it was used as a tool to hammer us with. But once we are out the EU, then complacency starts to set in and we will have the argument: “Do you really want to go through all that upheaveal again ?”

    The economic situation is the biggest problem. We would have a deficit, but the argument would be what path gives us the opportunity for higher growth ? A region of the UK, or as an EU nation state with huge potential to capitalise on the situation. Oil prices are down, but we still have half the UK land and sea area, with only 8.5% of the population. Self sufficient.

    Tough call, and I suppose Sturgeon might wait and see if the opinion polls hold up. Perhaps a Holyrood mandate for the option of a second referendum would give Scotland leverage in any negotiations whatever happens.

    There is a suggestion that losing a second referendum would be fatal, but there is no truth in that. A vote at this time could be justified as a reasonable and predictable reaction to a major change in circumstances.
    If lost, it would probably be off the table for another decade, but ultimately it is always up to the people. Only if a YES vote was lower than 45% would it be a major blow. Anything higher and it looks like opinion is gradually changing.

    At the end of the day, only a 6% swing is needed and a better campaign with a stronger message may well have a good chance.

  287. Petra says:

    @ Mike Cassidy at 11:08pm ….

    Thanks for that link Mike. Really interesting. I’ve skimmed through it because I’m busy right now but will get back to it later.


    @ Edward at 11:40pm ……

    Edward many thanks indeed for your ‘expert’ input on here. You mention ‘Forth Ports’. Who’s pulling their strings? Any links to Westminster?


    @ Grouse Beater at 11:50pm ….

    Spot on GB.


    @ thepnr at 11:40pm …. “If only Wings had a seer, an expert to guide me into the light.”

    I know a seer thepnr. The (their) story goes that we’ll get our Independence at the very latest by January 2019 and become a key player in the EU / Worldwide. We’ll have our own Embassies of course which will promote Scotland to the hilt to great advantage. A number of countries such as Greece will leave the EU fairly soon and the EU may dissolve in totality by 2030. The Euro will be dropped and a new form of currency will be adopted. England will struggle until China (Asian market) comes to their rescue and that partnership will have some undesirable strings attached. Hope that helps, lol.

  288. Rock says:

    Ian Brotherhood,

    “Question –

    Why does Rock refer to the ‘the population’?”

    What is wrong with ‘the population’?


    “It might be a good idea to wait for 60% of the population to demand a referendum before Nicola does anything other than having in depth discussions behind closed doors.”

  289. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock –

    Who do you represent?

  290. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Petra –


    Yer seer’s sketch does for me.

    Hoots aplenty, tae you and the seer.



  291. Grouse Beater says:

    Whatever you argue about the pros and cons of leaving our European friends you cannot argue that it has no negative consequences.

    It puts us squarely in the unsafe hands of US foreign policy and economics, and that IS a dangerous place to be.

  292. Tam Jardine says:

    Another new day, another chance for these media radges to rain pish down upon our heads. 00.01 and Sev Carrell has his lazy, drivel based piece in his “left wing” newspaper website quoting a report by the right wing tory thinktank the CPS.

    We go through every hackneyed economic shite we have heard a million times before with a kind of blase acknowledgement that something has changed. Prominent story on their site saturday- job done.

    It is bookended with a nice wee touch: “Scotland risks becoming Greece without the sun, says thinktank” is the headline and incase you have forgotten during your read it returns to that theme at the end.

    The Herald run the same story at the same time and I expect the same snish to be regurgitated in BBC Scotland News and the Scotsman. The anti Scottish media is this ghastly media-human centipede where the foetid garbage just passes from one hole to another in a long chain.

    No links to the actual report (although they do in the Guardian highlight some key phrases in blue which maybe makes some people wrongly think the whole thing is properly sourced wot like the Rev does.

    And no comments either so no-one can attack Sev’s uncritical reading of a right wing think tank report which says exactly what Gove wants to express.

    That pullizer may be some way off I fear for sev. Might end up with a gong but.

    Nice quote in the Telegraph piece on gove which made me laugh:

    “In a family you listen, you treat each other with respect, you work together to make things better together. And that’s what I will do…A vote to leave the European Union gives us the chance to renew and reboot the Union.”

    Brilliant- visions of a family sitting round the dinner table and one of them produces a grenade sans pin.

  293. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock –

    Aw, FFS, I’m trying to get to ma bed here!

    Bottom-line mister – ye come across as a sleakit bawbag with an agenda.

    Please, please, just FRO, eh?

  294. Grouse Beater says:

    Gove: “A vote to leave the European Union gives us the chance to reboot the Union.”

    Yeah – straight into the bloody Atlantic where it belongs.

  295. Petra says:

    @ Rock at 12:26 …. “The panel she appointed has already said Independence is the only way to preserve Scotland in the EU.”

    Has the panel of experts published a report of their findings yet? If so I must have missed it.

  296. clan rossy says:

    jesus christ guys cut out the earlier arguments on here there is a lot of people reading these pages so stop knocking the shit out of each other each other . i may not be politically astute compared to others on here. but i try to digest what is going on and so do a lot of other people that is why they come here.

    it is so they can grasp what is really going on around them at a very important time in there lives. so come on get a grip.

    ken500 all of scotland”s rail services will be electrified by 2030 i know as i have worked in the electrification dept for 30 years. e/g lines up and running dec 2016 then edin/stir 2017, glas/stir 2018 then it is stir/perth then on to aberdeen for 2025.

  297. Thepnr says:

    @Grouse Beater

    No we don’t want Gove. We want Maggie May rather than some Yew Choob crap like this.

  298. Rock says:


    “Just out of interest, i would like to offer you a challenge which if you can’t be bothered accepting then that’s fine by me. Can you provide me with just one example which exposes Rock as a troll? One example where his/her post cannot be classed as retaliation?”

    It was brave of you to say something in my favour when I was being attacked by a mob.

    Like you, I am also curious to read an answer to your challenge.

    All my attackers have been posting, but no one has come up with an example you asked for.

  299. Thepnr says:

    @clan rossy

    True a lot of people are reading here. Your point was?

  300. Kraw says:

    Hi folks!

    Came to thank Wings Over Scotland for converting two of my extended family over to Independence. The EU vote was a wake up call and articles on this site helped seal the deal.

    Our media has become so anti-Scotland in recent days it has lapsed into utter parody. It reeks of panic quite frankly. Winds of change folks, winds of change.

  301. Rock says:


    “@ Rock at 12:26 …. “The panel she appointed has already said Independence is the only way to preserve Scotland in the EU.”

    Has the panel of experts published a report of their findings yet? If so I must have missed it.

    The quotation was from Big Jock.

    But I also read an article where three NAMED members have been reported as saying that in no uncertain terms. You will have to look it up in the media.

    And that was just one day after they had been appointed.

  302. Brian McHugh says:

    Clan Rossy, they should take the boring tiff elsewhere. In years of reading Wings, this has to be the worst set of comments on a thread.

  303. Thepnr says:

    Here Rock do us all a favour and show us one example of you being attacked by a mob or even one poster.

    Much appeciated.

  304. Rock says:

    Grouse Beater,

    “Rock the Cock: Any idea which EU commissioner STATED that?

    Yes. But you can do your own homework.”

    Do I do a google search on “unnamed source “STATED” something” in unnamed media”?

  305. Liz g says:

    Donny who @1213
    I actually preferred what the actors were doing as opposed to the ceremonies.
    I took it to mean that the men who died were drawn from among us.
    And my 22year old who studied that war in high school and can get quite emotional about it,who also thinks the subject should be mandatory for all kid’s found it a very apt,original and meaningful.
    Believe me had she found anything off about it me,the net,the street and the politicians would have heard by now.
    Jist Sayin

  306. Hadrianswall says:

    Dave Anderson !! I’ve emailed him to ask why he thinks he is qualified to do the Scotland job ahead of numerous other people. Farce.

  307. Thepnr says:

    Feck me that was quick, don’t see a mob though.

  308. Rock says:

    Grouse Beater,

    “An EC commissioner states:

    “Discussions on transitional arrangements for an indy Scotland to remain in the EU after the UK leaves – are indeed taking place in Brussels.””

    Grouse Beater,

    “Rock the Cock: Any idea which EU commissioner STATED that?

    Yes. But you can do your own homework.”

    There is absolutely no way a NAMED EU commissioner would have STATED that.

    Prove me wrong by naming the Commissioner who said it and in which media it was reported.

    Your credibility is stake.

  309. Ruby says:

    Its tricky for me the follow the posts here as I never read any posts by the poster called Rock.

    He/she is on what I call my ‘Catherine Cookson list’. (writers I never read)

    I did read a few of his/her posts way back and decided I wouldn’t waste time reading anymore.

  310. Ruby says:

    Will Dave Anderson be any worse than Iain Murray, David Mundell or Alistair Carmichael?

  311. Dr Jim says:

    Every tool box contains at least one large implement that serves no purpose except to fill up the box
    You hope that one day you might find a use to put it to, but in vain you never do and you mean to throw it out and time will pass and you think you did, until it re appears, the same useless spanner you were sure was gone the last time you looked

    Direct latin translation (awfurfucksakenoagain)

  312. Ruby says:

    I’m having to stop reading any posts that start with Rock.

    All posts starting with Rock are on my Catherine Cookson list.

  313. Dcanmore says:

    Centre for Policy Studies is not a think tank as the media likes to make out. It was founded by Sir Keith Joseph (instigator of what became Thatcherism) and Margaret Thatcher in 1974 as a policy and lobby group that promotes very right-wing neo-liberal policies and avenues for the Tory Party. Its goal is to create economic liberalism in the world. Every year it hosts the Margaret Thatcher Conference on Liberty and is home to the Thatcher Foundation.

    They detest the SNP.

    Recently they have employed Michael Gove, Michael Fallon, John Redwood and a smattering of Tory Lords at various times and their experts is a who’s who from banks, Crown Estates and City consultant firms. Their media outlet is CAPX run by journos from Daily Mail and Telegraph (and Fraser Nelson).

  314. Rock says:

    So nice to see so many posters playing ball instead of the man.

  315. Ruby says:

    Apologies to Catherine Cookson & all her fans I mistakenly wrote Catherine Cookson instead of Barbara Cartland.

  316. Valerie says:


    Good too see arch unionist Massie jnr has roused himself, to write that drivel, which is well out of date.

    He is recycling Ruth’s assertions that we trade 4 times as much with England. We have no evidence of that, and a lot of our goods are just leaving Portsmouth for export.

    He tells us about our debt, AND, wait for it – oil!!! Drum roll for that curse on our head.

    What debt? Our finances are controlled by our Masters. Gers is flawed, we can’t get into the books. We have no idea what our asset registry is, because FOI requests are refused.

    Massie obviously missed the news this week, that all indications are, oil prices will start to rise soon.

    What we have to remember is that Project Smear, like this piece is starting. Why?

    UK is going down the shitter, Scotland is making the right moves, and most importantly some very important money people, companies etc are looking at Scotland as the main financial hub. Yes, it’s mercenary, they want Scotland in the EU, for their passporting arrangement for foreign exchange.

    There is NO question in my mind, we do not wait. The brass ring is in view, it’s delicate timing to build support, and get the timing right.

    My guess is Feb-Apr 2017, before the council elections.

    BTW, there is a cracking little vid I saw on FB. Carney getting questioned about Scotland. The Chair wanted him to put an estimate on the value of financial assets for Scotland, wasn’t anymore specific than that.

    Carney kind of mumbled something, and the Chair was visibly shocked, and said ‘pardon’. Carney – ‘somewhere north of 1 trillion’

    I will try and find the vid. The younger ones are good at cropping the snippets they find funny!

  317. liz g says:

    Ruby @ 1.43
    OT sorry but curious
    What’s wrong with Catherine Cookson ?
    Nip over to off topic if you need a long reply

  318. Petra says:

    Last post of the night.

    Rock I have no idea who Big Jock is at all and I’m not one bit interested in what any named individual of the Standing Council of Experts has to say about this issue at this time …… that is if they have actually said anything at all which I doubt. Don’t forget how the media manipulate people.

    That group of people will discuss and debate this extremely serious and historical issue until they reach a conclusion. Along the way they will no doubt call for the advice of others who are not actually on the Committee. It will take time … a great deal of time. When they do reach a conclusion they will construct a comprehensive report outlining each and every option that was open to us, or not, to remain in the UK and EU. This will take months to finalise imo.

    If they ultimately say that Independence is our only option to staying in the EU Nicola at that point will outline their published report and conclusion to the Nation and announce next step …. Indyref2 ….if polls have demonstrated that a large majority of Scots have supported Independence over a sustained period of time. She’ll no doubt be monitoring that support right now which will be ongoing of course.

    In taking all of this into account I can’t figure out why you want Nicola “to tell the population very soon.” Tell them what?

  319. Cactus says:

    Voting leave the EU has resulted with Westminster:
    Faffing about, uncertainty, confusion, anger, fear.

    Scotland’s Yes vote next referendum will give us a:
    Declaration, certainty, direction, happiness, hope 🙂

    All things are relative, 800+ comments and counting.. Like.

    I wonder what Chris Cairns has for us today, so much happening in one week to choose from, take your pick!

  320. Liz g says:

    Just saw you’re post re Catherine Cookson…..
    Wouldn’t say I am a fan but was really only wondering.
    Anyhoo now you are saying it should have been Barbara Cartoons there is no explanation required.

  321. crazycat says:

    @ liz g

    I know you’re not asking me (and Ruby has said she meant Barbara Cartland), but when I was about 19 and really miserable, I read loads of Catherine Cookson books.

    Eventually, I realized they were all the same story. I still quite enjoyed them, though, and the non-fiction one she wrote about her mother was not only well worth reading, but explained all the others.

  322. Ruby says:

    iz g says:
    2 July, 2016 at 2:03 am

    Ruby @ 1.43
    OT sorry but curious
    What’s wrong with Catherine Cookson ?
    Nip over to off topic if you need a long reply

    Ruby replies

    Sorry I meant Barbara Cartland!

  323. yesindyref2 says:

    From the CPS (Center for Policy Studies) about Brexit:

    The weakness of the Labour Party and the resolution of the EU question have created a unique political opportunity to drive through a wide ranging supply-side revolution on a scale similar to that of the 1980s. This must include removing unnecessary regulatory burdens on businesses, such as those related to climate directives and investment fund regulations.

    I think we can draw a veil over them, preferably with a lunar orbit booster rocket attached. Anyone for casino banking? Place your virtual chips! Welcome to 2008.

  324. Valerie says:

    Hope you can access this. Is the short vid of Carney I mentioned above at 2am

  325. Liz g says:

    CrazyCat @ 2.15
    Thanks for your reply and I am glad you responded.
    I read C.C.between the ages of 11 & 15 and at that point loved them.
    You are correct however they are all basically the same story as is Steven King et all.
    While reading taste’s change and evolve and it is unusual and delightful to find an author that offers something different,I really was just curious to know what it was about C.C.that put Ruby off,as I couldn’t see what it could be.

    Hope this finds you as I leave you my friend

  326. Petra says:

    Valerie thanks for that. I was heading off to bed at 2:30am because I have to get up at 7ish and need my four hours sleep (something I have in common with Maggie T, lol).

    Anyway I’m so annoyed now I’ve rearranged my timetable for tomorrow.

    I’d never seen that video before Valerie and absolutely despair at the number of people, politicians, civil servants, Union leaders and journalists, who know how rich we are but are covering it up. I knew we were a very rich country but that has just finished me off. Did we hear him right? That’s the round figure … a trillion?

    I travel around Scotland and see litter strewn streets, pot holed roads and boarded up shops … and that’s in the half decent areas. At the other end of the scale the level of poverty is absolutely abysmal and totally depressing. People are suffering. Babies and children are suffering for Gods sake. WHY are they doing this to us? Why are they allowing this to happen? When I say ‘they’ I mean in the main Scots who are in the know.

    Many journalists in Scotland are too frightened to open their mouths because it would mean losing their jobs but what about the Unionist politicians? Forget about the callous Tories and dim wit Rennie who probably does think that we are too wee, poor and stupid… but what about the bl**dy Labour Party? The party of the working man? The party that’s supposed to protect the poor, sick, disabled and deprived? They’re already covering up the part they, Labour. played re. McCrone, stolen seas and the Iraq War ETC but by God when all of this gets out they are finished in Scotland. Oh and it will get out because when we get our Independence, VERY SOON, and have control over broadcasting they are toast.

    Every last one of them will be gone. Sad to say that’ll not be punishment enough for them for what they’ve done to Scotland over decades in the name of grovelling to some daft wee man in England who has personal hang-ups, farts and poops like everyone else … kowtowing to one wee English (or Scot) man has resulted in our horrendous mortality rate, child poverty, level of misery etc, etc, etc, etc. If we were living in the Eastern bloc they’d be thrown into prison and forgotten about.

    Anyway I’m off to bed now feeling extremely angry and profoundly sad. I’m not one for swearing but have to say bl**dy bast*rds. Oh and that just makes me even more determined to rid myself (Scotland) of the vermin that’s been destroying my country and the lives of millions of Scots over time. Makes me even more determined to fight for Independence. Look out Labour.

  327. yesindyref2 says:

    Just been looking up CPS ==> Thatcher and Joseph ==> CapX ==> Gove and wish I hadn’t. People talked about what’s to come but I didn’t really pay attention. I did know I didn’t want relative moderate Cameron to go. Wife’s Irish, might apply for my passport.

  328. Macart says:


    Heh, they’re reaching for that old chestnut are they?

    A’ respected’ think tank reports that… 😀 LOL

    They really are pooping their tidy whities at the thought of Scotland saying ENOUGH and taking the high road.

    Well? They’ve kinda brought it all upon themselves.

    But surely since we’re a notable financial basket case and subsidy junkie nation, whingers, an anchor etc, we’d be no loss to an independent and fiscally responsible England?

    Wait now! You don’t suppose they may have overstated and ever so slightly mislead the UK electorate with that narrative in the media do you? Shurely shum mishtake?!?! I mean look how well their media briefs have worked out over the EU issue.

    The UK is now surely awash in cash as business is set to skyrocket. There’s a happy, balanced, socially well adjusted population tolerant and understanding of all. As for public services and institutions? Not a problem anymore, no siree.

    Oh and as for international relations? Why the UK has never been more popular, or more respected. ‘Course you’d have to read the Mail, Express, Telegraph, Guardian, Spectator an such to confirm all of that but…. Oh!

  329. Grouse Beater says:

    Cock of the Rock: “Your credibility is stake.”

    No one here is answerable to you, a discredited troll. You know what you can do with your trolling and bullying. Only check first for a dead squirrel blocking it.

  330. Breeks says:

    @ Yesindyref2 4:40am

    Ceasar in 48bc was infamous for sacking the Library in Alexandria, when countless documents and ancient records and knowledge was lost to the world.

    What Neoliberalism has cost us in a few short decades in terms of lost culture, expertise, folklore, hands on knowledge and experience should really be making us all weep. It has gone, and is irreplaceable.

    Neoliberalism is nothing more than the worship of wealth, and the means of amassing it at all costs. Past generations have aspired to improve themselves, reach for the impossible, add to knowledge and advance towards a better civilisation. It recognised and valued skill, achievement and enlightenment.

    Neoliberalism is the antitheses of culture. It a necrosis which occurs when a society becomes its own insatiable parasite.

    To date there is no known cure. Only riots and public disorder to temorarily slow down the contagion.

  331. Lollysmum says:

    Valerie at 2.28
    That link just takes me to a page of recommended videos for me to consider watching.

    Does your clip have a title I can search for?

  332. Grouse Beater says:

    What use is the faux ‘No Borders’ campaign now that England has ensured it has a locked border with every nation except the USA?

  333. Grouse Beater says:

    Still able to bring cheer to an independista’s day:

  334. woosie says:

    Some fears outlined here about no brexit after all. Maybe a second referendum; but didn’t they all say “once in a lifetime” or words to that effect?

    A second referendum on brexit would decide for staying in, without doubt, after we’ve all seen the sickening antics of british politicians fighting for scraps. That would suggest that any referendum is a two-parter; 1st to gauge current opinion, 2nd to arrive at the real truth of the matter. This precedent would naturally lead to indyref part 2, which I’m sure we would win.

    Also some statements applauding the politeness and general honesty of SNP politicians. I join with those. When the inevitable smears reappear in a future indyref part 2, the basic truth to remember is that scotnats are so honest, 56 of them are actually voting themselves out of a job!

    Watching Gover, Bojo, May, and their red tory counterparts expose themselves for the self-serving troughers they really are raises the honest profiles of our MPs more than we could have hoped!

    No wonder many from the north of england want to come with us!

  335. Nana says:


    Professor Michael Dougan assesses UK’s position following vote to leave the EU

    This is the Shadow Sec of state for Scotland, voted against Scotland and will do so at every opportunity. What a farcical state of affairs we are living in.

    Robin Hood tax a good idea

  336. Breeks says:

    Woosie one of the first things I said was that there would be a second Brexit, and that it would be a disaster for us to have Brexit2 running side by side with Indyref2.

    If Europe cannot trigger Article 50, then Brexit is stalemate, but a stalemate which is a lifeline for Westminster and a drag line for Europe.

    The UK will be a desperate to cling onto it’s lifeline as the EU is desperate to be rid of it. Europe will thus be looking closely for UK infractions and breaches in European Law which represent material grounds for the UK’s expulsion. This might be unilateral trade negotiations, or it could even cite the UN’s recent document which was scathing about the UK’s human rights record.
    Alternative to that, what happens if Europe decides it won’t accept the UK’s contribution since Brexit is a material change of circumstance for Europe just as it is for Scotland?

    I don’t believe Europe will tolerate a stalement, but ending it could be fractious and messy and see Scotland caught in the crossfire.

    For all of us in the “strike while the iron is hot” category, these are tell tale signs of the iron cooling.

  337. Nana says:

    Chilcot Report will blame MI6 for ‘dodgy dossier’ used by Tony Blair

    You will be able to read the report here once it is published next week so bookmark the link.

  338. David says:

    Theres a lot of stuff to talk about and ponder. One simple thing i will say is that if Scots dont vote for independence if there is a 2nd referendum then i shall never call myself a Scot again and will refer to Scotland alternatively as ‘Northern Britain’.

  339. Edward says:

    Petra @ 12.39 am
    Actually Forth Ports is not a Scottish company any more, they were bought out in 2011
    by asset management company, Arcus Infrastructure Partners

    Reading through various bits, it would appear that Arcus are more interested in developing
    Forth Ports existing land assets and renewables projects and seem to be less interesting in developing port structures in Scotland.

    It should be noted that Forth Ports have a near monopoly of Scottish ports and it was Forth Ports
    that lodged objection for development of Babcock Port Rosyth.

    As for Westminster connections, their chairman at Forth Ports is a peer, Lord Smith of Kelvin

  340. Petra says:

    @ Edward at 9:15am ….. “Lord Smith of Kelvin….”

    Thanks for that Edward. All very interesting indeed in particular that Lord Smith of Kelvin is Chairman of Forth Ports. Lord Kelvin of the Smith Commission. Isn’t it a small World.

  341. Petra says:

    Nana thanks for links. Let’s hope that the contents of the Chilcott Report scunner another few (hundred) thousand people into voting yes for Independence. And the Robin Hood tax! Another real eye opener. Who cares for the planet? Who cares for the people? Not the bankers that’s for sure. Disgusting.

    Edward I’m wondering if control of our ports is all part of Westminster’s master plan that is to ensure that we can’t export (or totally limit capacity to) from Scottish ports such as Rosyth? I notice you mentioned a number of ports earlier and problems re. depth of water, tides and so on. I don’t remember you mentioning Greenock. Could you tell me a bit more about that?

  342. cearc says:

    Seems a bit unfair to put the link on Chris’s post so early but this is a great cartoon from the Times (Chris has retweeted it himself).

  343. Petra says:

    Edward I just noticed a link between Venture Productions and Centrica. Centrica and fracking. Lord Smith and fracking. I’ll have to move myself. Got lots to do but think I’ll look into this later. Thanks for the info.

  344. Nana says:

    Everyone tune in to the propaganda from the bbc G A Ponsonby has tweeted the audio link

  345. louis.b.argyll says:

    Blimey guv’nor..
    Was like an edition of ‘Geology Monthly’ on here last night.

  346. Valerie says:


    The vid at 2.28. If you can’t use the link, go to YouTube and put in search Scotland economy trillion.

    Those words are in the title.

  347. Breeks says:

    Can’t we crowd fund a big comfortable beer tent, stick it up in the Meadows in Edinburgh or the Carse below Stirling Castle, or hell yes, take it on tour. Fill it full of beer, wine, tasty food, and all the very best Scotland has to offer; provide nice toilets, live entertainment, premium access to internet and loved ones back home and then we invite journalists from all over Europe and the Americas to come and stay there for the inaugural year long Fesival of Journalism?

    And every day, feature a live nationwide broadcast of news from a proper journalist, or even a rank amateur journalist, or anybody really, just so long as he or she doesn’t work for the BBC.

  348. louis.b.argyll says:

    Nana says:
    2 July, 2016 at 10:21 am
    Everyone tune in to the propaganda from the bbc G A Ponsonby has tweeted..

    WOW- if there was a drinking game, a swig, each time a negative phrase is spoken etc, the bottle would never leave the lips.

    Would love to see a transcript of that ‘discussion’ to check just how off the scale it’s one-sided-ness really is.

    Ps does/should one-sidedness have two hyphens?

  349. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Valerie.

    Here’s your link sorted.

    “Scottish Economy Worth North of a Trillion !”

  350. yesindyref2 says:

    Feeling better now, it seems Gove has little chance. It does make you wonder though, was he so arrogant or thick as mince he thought he could get away with his totally blatant deception and backstabbing – or are his strings being pulled to hide the real target – the “sleeper”?

  351. Rock says:


    “Has the panel of experts published a report of their findings yet? If so I must have missed it.”


    “Rock I have no idea who Big Jock is at all and I’m not one bit interested in what any named individual of the Standing Council of Experts has to say about this issue at this time”

    “That group of people will discuss and debate this extremely serious and historical issue until they reach a conclusion”

    I have no idea who you are at all, but since you posed a question in the first case, it has to be answered.

    Dr Kirsty Hughes of Friends of Europe:

    “in terms of preserving Scotland’s EU status, “the simplest and most obvious way would be to be an independent state and transition in and stay in the EU”.

    Prof Sionaidh Douglas-Scott of the Queen Mary School of Law at the University of London:

    “it was very difficult to see how one part of the UK could be in the EU and not the other parts.”

    Former European Court of Justice judge Prof Sir David Edward:

    “It doesn’t seem to me possible to envisage a position of Scotland remaining part of the UK but having a separate relationship in relation to the single market.”

    Prof Drew Scott of the University of Edinburgh:

    “Why could Scotland not be the successor state?”

    “this scenario was “not impossible” if Scotland did vote in favour of independence in any referendum.”

    The four experts can of course change their mind, like all those Labour MPs who voted for the Iraq war after being presented with the “undeniable evidence” of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction.

  352. Rock says:

    Grouse Beater,

    “An EC commissioner states:

    “Discussions on transitional arrangements for an indy Scotland to remain in the EU after the UK leaves – are indeed taking place in Brussels.””


    “Any idea which EU commissioner STATED that?

    And the media in which the quoted statement was reported?”

    Grouse Beater,

    “Yes. But you can do your own homework.”


    “There is absolutely no way a NAMED EU commissioner would have STATED that.

    Prove me wrong by naming the Commissioner who said it and in which media it was reported.”

    Grouse Beater,

    “No one here is answerable to you, a discredited troll. You know what you can do with your trolling and bullying. Only check first for a dead squirrel blocking it.”

    You have been caught out LYING, so you resort to personal abuse.

  353. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    The active life of the btl comments on a WOS page is usually slightly less than 24 hours.

    I remember reading, a couple of years ago, a post that somebody did, about how a certain type of poster didn’t post until the comments were reaching the end of their natural. Then they would post a comment that kinda disagreed with everything that had gone before, or introduced a spurious argument.

    That’s you, that is!

  354. Greannach says:

    I believe Liam Fox is a poultry expert among his innumerable other talents, so we might say “Liam Fox likes cocks”.

  355. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Will Podmore was the classic example…

  356. Glesca Keelie says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:
    1 July, 2016 at 7:43 pm

    Re UK electricity generation and demand.

    I find this site rather interesting…

    Brian, until a few weeks before the GE, if I remember right, you could go to the National Grid website direct.
    There was a page showing energy flow direction.
    Scotland to England Always N to S. Can’t remember the figures, around 4 GW constant.
    France to England, seem to remember around 1GW.
    England to Ireland (Republic) 800 MW ish.
    Scotland to N.Ireland somewhere the same.
    I think there was an interconnector from Belgium as well,
    Then the page disappeared.

  357. Grouse Beater says:

    Cock of the Rock: “You have been caught out LYING, so you resort to personal abuse.”

    You’re a busted troll; anything you write is a lie.

  358. Grouse Beater says:

    Brian Doonthetoon: “Podmore was the classic example…”

    Remarkable how quickly you forget those jerks. 🙂

  359. Steve Thaw says:

    Re- Mark Carney’s comments about Scottish Financial assets being north of a trillion pounds, before he says that he tells us that it is roughly 10 times the size of Scottish GDP.

    Now, aren’t the official figures around the £56 billion mark for GDP?? If it is 10 times our GDP and north of a trillion then it must be that our GDP is north of 100 billion, or am I picking this up wrong?

  360. Ken500 says:

    Blair can be impeached and members of Westminster are up for it. Don’t know the penalty for impeachment. Especially with the state of the Unionist Parties. That is why the (Blairites) MP’s MSP’s etc who have collective responsibility, including Westminster Unionist. are so are desperate to get of Colbyn. He is up to impeach Blair/Brown. The whole guilty, culpable Unionist establishment is trying to desperately get rid of Colbyn because he is gong to call them out.

    Calling them out is the only way to end conflict in the world. Colbyn will do the world a massive favour. He is an honourable moral man, who cares about others and vulnerable people. Most of Labour are ignorant self seekers. Despicable people.

    Blair/Brown can be sued. They can be bankrupted.

    The West (Blair/Brown)) are still stealing the Oil from the countries they illegally bombed to bits and occupied. They not giving the people their own resources to rebuild their countries. Obama gave Iran nuclear (they don’t need. -there are other safer sources) for their Oil. The US had spread dangerous nuclear weapons all over the world for money. Using threats and causing damage and harm.

    In the 1950’s Churchill caused unrest in Iran (Persia) M15/CIA put the PM in jail and took all their Oil and resources. Re-imposed the despised Shah. Destroyed democracy.

    Westminster supported Saddam with arms and ammunition to invade Iran. The Iraq-Iran War. Churchill gassed the Kurds. Westminster Unionist politicians support and aid apartheid States and absolute despot Monarchy’s for money. Backhanders and donations. Illegal ‘cash for honours’. Westminster Unionist politicians reneged on the promise of votes for the Middle East for support in conflicts. 1WW + 11WW.

  361. Ken500 says:

    UK assets £8.7Trillion. Debt £1.6Trillion. Take £1.6trn away from £8.7trn = £6Trn Scotland contibuted a 1Trn? The accounts are there, especially from 1928, and before.

    The distribution is a problem. Bit gap between rich and poorer. Biggest in the world apart from US?

    More equal countries are more stable, happier healthier and prosperous. Small counties are the Most prosperous equal countries in the world. Norway. Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, Singapore. Germany is in surplus and a large country. The Scottish economy would be like Germany. It could be more like Norway in the future. Oil in the West. Scotland has the best potential for renewables in the EU. Could get massive investment. Geographically. Wind, wave, mountains and sun.

    Most EU countries have successful economies. Less debt in the Eurozone. Many of Greece’s problems were caused by their previous Gov. Massive tax evasion. The wealthy not paying taxes. Non public jobs. Mis-spending public finances. Buying too much redundant weaponry. The people of Greece voted to stay in the Euro and the EU. That is why they are still there. That is why they did not leave, the EU-Eurozone is still supporting them, while they get out of their mess. The EU members did not force them out or make them leave. Even though Greece broke the (fiscal) rules. They could receive increase assistance. Scotland could argue for that.

  362. Robert Graham says:

    Thanks for the bbc link nana after listening to the one sided discussion I am surprised they didn’t all just chant you can’t .you can’t you can’t you can’t the BBC still believe we are all stupid they continue to push the euro pish , a re run of 2014 ha ha carry on its bloody pathetic and will continue the drip drip drip a treacherous organisation working against the wishes of what probably is a majority of people in Scotland and they will make sure they don’t give this away that there more than likely is majority to leave the UK.

  363. ScottieDog says:

    Maybe professor McDonald should stick to flipping burgers.
    Example of country outwith the EU with own floating currency. Growth of 4%. 12% increase in real come since financial crisis – Iceland.

  364. ScottieDog says:

    “Most EU countries have successful economies. Less debt in the Eurozone. Many of Greece’s problems were caused by their previous Gov. Massive tax evasion. The wealthy not paying taxes. Non public jobs. Mis-spending public finances. Buying too much redundant weaponry. The people of Greece voted to stay in the Euro and the EU. That is why they are still there. That is why they did not leave, the EU-Eurozone is still supporting them, while they get out of their mess. The EU members did not force them out or make them leave. Even though Greece broke the (fiscal) rules. They could receive increase assistance. Scotland could argue for that.”

    Ken Greece was brought into the EU outside of the ‘fiscal rules’ just like Italy. Predatory banks then provided loans knowing full well they couldn’t be repaid.

    Interestingly countries like the U.S, Japan, the UK don’t meet the stability growth pact criterion. Had any of these countries tried to abide by the nonsensical limits of govt debt:GDP ratio of 60% they and the rest of the world would be in a deep recession.

    The EU isn’t supporting Greece it is destroying it. Sorry the euro and its fag packet calculated stability growth pact is a failure and really only benefits Germany funnily enough.

    Deficit spending is a safety mechanism designed to kick in when the economy starts to decline and demand starts to fall, that safety mechanism wasn’t available to Greece because it was relying on the economic acumen of the ideologically driven troika.

    I’m all for Scotland being in a common market with free trade and movement but not shackled to a failed single currency model dominated by bankers.

  365. Iain More says:


    “Most EU countries have successful economies. Less debt in the Eurozone. Many of Greece’s problems were caused by their previous Gov. Massive tax evasion. The wealthy not paying taxes. Non public jobs. Mis-spending public finances. Buying too much redundant weaponry.”

    Awfully familiar with UK isn’t it? Throw in the massive corruption and sleaze in Westmidden and UKs problems are going to be a whole lot worse.

  366. shug says:

    Does anyone have a list of all the EU funded project in Scotland

    About time we saw the cost of exit

  367. Caledonius says:


    These are some of the more recent projects EU money was involved in. Hope it helps a little.

  368. Andrew McLean says:

    Scottie dog
    “Example of country outwith the EU with own floating currency. Growth of 4%. 12% increase in real come since financial crisis – Iceland.”

    What is the figure in income prior to the crash compared to today? Because to take the base point starting at the crash is manipulating statistics to support your assertion, no?

  369. Andrew McLean says:

    If we don’t win the next referendum, I for one, will get up, brush myself down and brace myself for the next one, never will I except the state that i my country subjugated by Westminster and Whitehall, even if it takes the rest of my life I will never, never surrender my sole to those illegitimate immoral imperialistic dictatorial snakes in the grass. Never, never, never, if it’s the establishment thinking that if they throw the kitchen sink at us to put it out of play, the are seriously mistaken, I promise them they will never win, never!

  370. deewal says:

    Kitchen sink ? They’ll throw bomb’s at us if they want to.

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