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Wings Over Scotland

All things are relative

Posted on June 30, 2016 by

Of the UK’s potential next Prime Ministers, Theresa May is the nice one.


We’ll just leave you to ponder that for a bit.














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    1. 30 06 16 14:56

      All things are relative | speymouth

    2. 30 06 16 22:50

      All things are relative | Stuff from the Intern...

    872 to “All things are relative”

    1. Luigi says:

      Whoever gets it, this does not bode well for immigrants in the UK.

      I was really surprised that May did not come out for LEAVE. But then again, perhaps she was positioning herself for this moment.

    2. teh_klev says:

      Note the choice of the first stance wording: “Leave the EU” vs “Remain in EU” to give Gove most of the ticks (because ticks are visually more compelling than crosses).

      Are Sky gunning for Gove perhaps?

    3. blackhack says:

      It’s like going into Aldermaston and they ask you which disease you’d like.

    4. Valerie says:

      Teresa May is nice, like King Herod was a good babysitter.

    5. Got to love the WM Anglo-Brits: Complete fcuk-up merchants.Great value for comedic value if they were not sociopaths.

      PS Are Benn and BoJo blood related?

    6. DerekM says:

      Would sir like a serving of evil or maybe some extra evil to go along with that or would sir like the full luxury evil package.

      Sorry sir the bouncy evil castle has burst.

    7. MajorBloodnok says:

      It’s a bit like being asked “which bollock would you like me to cut off without anaesthetic?”

      (It’s normal to have five, right?)

    8. mike cassidy says:

      She thought the “go home” vans were too much of a blunt instrument.

      Feck knows what will be getting sharpened if she gets the job.

    9. cearc says:


      Another London politics thread. We’re getting spoilt. (Nothing happening here as usual, maybe the BBC have something).

    10. frogesque says:

      Ffs, Westminster is being run by a third rate team of amateurs.

      This is people’s lives they are tossing about like a beanbag at a P1 playground.

    11. Pietro_McM says:

      Ye’ve no idea hoo thankfu’ah’m that ah took Dutch citizenship 5 year ago.

      Guid luck, ye’re gonntae need it.

    12. Lenny Hartley says:

      Wonder what the Brit Establishment have on BoJo for him not to stand?
      If it’s all right for David Cameron to be PM after having oral sex with a dead pig the mind boggles as to what Boris has been up too.

      strange lot these Public Skoolboys nearly as strange as Scots Naesayers who would rather be governed by an Eton Cabal rather than a democratically elected government voted by those who stay in your own Country.

    13. Onwards says:

      Why would self respecting Scots put up with any of them. Even the remaining labour voters must be scunnered at the thought of the Tories lording it over Scotland for years to come. Their party is basically unelectable.

      Incidentally, what does anyone think of the idea of a double question referendum.
      1. To govern ourselves as a nation state
      2. To join/remain within the EU

      There is a precedent with the devolution referendum, and we could campaign for a yes/yes vote and not alienate the minority who would prefer to stay out.

    14. Jim Thomson says:

      @blackhack 1:43pm

      Aldermaston is where you go if you want to be glowing with health (in the dark)

      Porton Down is the place where you can get a few quid a day for having unknown potions injected into your veins and they (try to) feed you while you “recover”

    15. galamcennalath says:

      They are the nasty party. At least they don’t usually try to hide it!

      As a notable exception, why did Ruthie actually pretend to be something else for the Holyrood elections?

    16. desimond says:

      Who is Ruthie backing?

      3 Scots to chose from mind!

    17. paul says:

      Liam against gay marriage?
      His shirtfront will be damp with Adam’s tears tonight.

    18. Breeks says:

      So there’s Death, War, Pestilence, and Famine…

      Who’s the fifth one again?

      Oh yeah, that’s right … Brexit.

    19. Petra says:

      You forgot to add a wee photograph of Sarah Vine Stu.

      It looks as though one way or another a woman will be the UK’s next Prime Minister. Theresa May or Sarah Vine?

      The link / email also includes some insight too into the role that the corrupt media play in the UK.

    20. mike cassidy says:

      Pietro 1.55

      Going Dutch, eh, ya big meanie!

    21. frogesque says:

      @ cearc:

      Yeah, like Scotland quietly getting on with business, running Scotland with a brilliant team and moving ever closer to the inevitable conclusion of a successful second IndyRef.

      Frankly I don’t want us to be in headlights until the time is right, meanwhile I’ll just watch the rats fighting in the rotten barrel of Westminster.

      Fear not, our time is coming, and it will be good!

    22. Luigi says:

      Breeks says:

      30 June, 2016 at 2:06 pm

      So there’s Death, War, Pestilence, and Famine…

      Who’s the fifth one again?

      Oh yeah, that’s right … Brexit.

      The UKopalypse.

    23. mike cassidy says:

      Petra 2.06

      So the one candidate that everybody thought would walk it –

      but who is not trusted by Rupert Murdoch –

      doesn’t stand.

      I suppose Jerry Hall will be thinking – well, at least I might get some peace tonight.

    24. Robert Louis says:

      Seriously, if the people of Scotland don’t vote for independence after the last two weeks, then there really is no hope for the human race.

      The real problem is, all the candidates are Tories.

    25. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. Today’s First Minister’s Questions.
      Now Archived,and ready for viewing on Scottish Parliament TV:

    26. Thepnr says:

      As Theresa May states border controls are inevitable if Scotland votes for Independence.

      It is reported today that

      “David Cameron has told the Taoiseach he will give “whatever help he can” in keeping an open border between Ireland and the North.”

      Who to believe?

    27. Brian MacLeod says:

      “Lenny Hartley says:
      30 June, 2016 at 2:01 pm
      Wonder what the Brit Establishment have on BoJo for him not to stand?”

      Maybe he was at the other end of the pig and it was under age…

    28. Luigi says:

      The next parliamentary by-election (wherever it is) is going to be, well let’s just say: Interesting. 🙂

    29. defo says:

      “where mad mad lovers must pause, and draw the line”

    30. Iain More says:

      The in reality Europhobic May is now the great white hope of the Little Englander Thatcher Cult. Get me out of the UK ASAP please.

    31. Iain More says:

      I can only assume that Boris isn’t one of the true Blue boys as he didn’t stick it to a deid sow!

    32. Stoker says:

      Jim Thomson wrote:
      “Porton Down is the place where you can get a few quid a day for having unknown potions injected into your veins and they (try to) feed you while you “recover””

      Ah, the very same Porton Down responsible for the biological warfare birth of Anthrax and the Gruinard Island tests, among numerous other despicable achievements!

    33. louis.b.argyll says:

      I really cannot fathom England’s very idea of ‘leadership’.

      Therefore, I KNOW they/whoever cannot represent me, even if they tried.

      Sure, I am free to not respect their decisions. Which means nothing.

      However, I am bound by law to accept the consequences. Which makes me a complicit citizen.

      They accept despots like Blair and thatcher.

      They reject reformers as ‘bad for our image, moving forward..’

    34. Ian Brotherhood says:

      What a shower.

      Even diehard BTUKOKers must, in their quiet moments, despair at this embarrassment and acknowledge that continuing WM efforts to thwart Scottish independence are now based on pure spite.

    35. Ken500 says:

      May supported Leave but Vegas Temain for political reasons and personal gain.

      Hollande unpopular French President (Not PM) up for re-election May 2017. It is possible he will no be involved in all/any negotiations. The Auld Alliance. Scotland and France were allies against English domination for centuries.

      Rajoy Spanish PM Spain and French were Allies against English domination for centuries.

      It is possible, even through Scotland might not meet the strict criteria, with Scotland’s future prospects as an Independent country, the Eurozone members might support an Independent Scotland using the Euro.

      It is essential that Scotland is Independent and out of sterling before Article 500 is triggered and sterling tanks ruining the Scottish/UK economy and taking Scotland down with them. The Eurozone would protect Scotland. Joining the Euro would be good for business cut red tape, costs
      and protect business.

    36. Luigi says:

      It’s now inevitable. It just has to be.

      After Brexit and all the shenanigans at WM during the past week, anyone in Scotland who thinks we are still “Better Together” with that lot must be an evil-adverse monkey.

    37. Ken500 says:

      May supported Leave but supported Remain publicly (lied) for political reasons and personal gain.

      Just as Boris Johnston support the EU and Remain but (lied) publicly supported Brexit for political reasons and personal gain and blew it. Ruined his ‘career’ and trying to hide now.

    38. Luigi says:

      Iain More says:

      30 June, 2016 at 2:25 pm

      I can only assume that Boris isn’t one of the true Blue boys as he didn’t stick it to a deid sow!

      I wonder………Naw, surely not! 🙂

    39. Thepnr says:


      “3 scots to chose from mind!”

      Well thanks for that, I knew Gove was born in Edinburgh but never knew Crabb was born in Inverness and Fox in East Kilbride.

      That’s the three of them out of the running due to EVEL, can’t have a Jock making English laws. Theresa may it is then.

    40. misteralz says:

      Jack Murphy, thanks for the link. Loved five minutes in, spotting a tory clapping when Oor Nicola burned Rooth the Mooth! 😀

    41. Shamur says:

      The comedic value of the comments alone is priceless. It’s a Lose:lose whatever Tory we get. TFF Nicola and the indyref2 option.

    42. A Welcome Home says:

      May is the westminster establishment candidate just as Eagle is/was. It’s going well for Eagle so far since laughter is about the best that can be said for her reception from Labour members.

      Even if the establishment had managed to find two vaguely acceptable and competent choices (they self-evidently haven’t) Eagle voted Yes to invading Iraq while May opposed Brexit. Guess what? That stuff matters even if the same fools who caused this chaos are desperate to pretend it doesn’t.

      A Leader needs to lead not hide and cower away.

      None of the Blairite plotters and none of those standing for tory leader are anyone you could seriously imagine doing any more or less differently than David Cameron and Osborne. People who, when things got tough, ran away like petulant children and let chaos engulf everything.

      Theresa May could fold like a cheap pack of cards under the pressure every bit as a much as Cameron Osborne and now Boris did. She already spent the entire EUref in hiding. Get prepared for years more chaos.

    43. tartanfever says:

      We’re ignoring what she clearly said this morning and the potential impact is massive

      ‘Brexit means Brexit’, there will be no joining the EU by the back door’

      That clearly means no compromise of immigration and no intention to make an EEA arrangement.

      That means No single market

      The EU put out a very clear announcement last night. There will be no EEA deal unless the UK accepts the ‘four freedoms’ – and one of them is the absolute freedom of movement of all EU citizens.

      Now add to that the City of London losing it’s ‘EU Banking Passport’ which is near on inevitable now.

      What are you left with:

      a massive chunk of the City moves to Paris, Frankfurt, Dublin or another EU city.

      Economic disaster then ensues

    44. galamcennalath says:

      Luiga say

      “After Brexit and all the shenanigans at WM during the past week, anyone in Scotland who thinks we are still “Better Together” with that lot must be an evil-adverse monkey.”

      The SNP planned to launch a campaign this summer to promote the benefits of Indy.

      I somehow think that won’t be necessary! And if something does go ahead, it certainly will not be what was planned.

    45. Luigi says:

      Throughout the land, many proud scots and yoons are wandering around in a Brexit daze right now. All five stages of grief are currently on display. Some will not get beyond denial, but many will reach acceptance that independence is the best, the only realistic option left. There is no other way out of their predicament now. The penny will drop. We just have to give them time.

      Two years ought to do it. 🙂

    46. Proud Cybernat says:

      “All things are relative.”

      Just glad I don’t have any of them as a relative.

    47. K1 says:

      This from the guardian live feed an hour ago:

      ‘Discussions on transitional arrangements for an independent Scotland to remain in the European Union (EU) after the UK leaves are taking place in Brussels, a former senior adviser to the European Commission (EC) has disclosed.

      As the Press Association reports, Dr Kirsty Hughes told MSPs discussions are taking place about putting Scotland in a “transitional holding pen” after Brexit to avoid “an absurd out and then in process”.

      She urged MSPs to hold a second independence referendum by summer 2017 at the latest, if it is judged to be in the best interests of Scotland, to allow the EU to start work on these transitional arrangements.

      However, she warned the EU “does not want a mini-UK” and said Scotland is unlikely to keep the UK’s “awkward squad” opt-outs of the euro, justice and home affairs and the UK budget rebate.

      Hughes, now an associate fellow of the Friends of Europe, told Holyrood’s European and External Relations Committee:

      “I talk to people in Brussels, off the record, who are talking about Scotland being in some sort of transitional holding pen.

      It wouldn’t have a seat in the council of ministers until ratification of the treaties, but it wouldn’t have to go through an absurd out and then in process.

      I go through all that for now because I think there is a timing issue.

      If Scotland waits until nearly the end of the two years to say, ‘This isn’t okay and now we’re having an independence referendum’, you might not have had that and had time to have the negotiations with the rest of the UK on dissolving the union before the whole of the UK has left.

      So, it’s obviously a very big political judgement about whether and when to call an independence referendum.

      If it was only a question of logic, you would call it as soon as possible in my view.

      You would call it, anyway, let’s say, by next summer because then you would have actually had the dissolution talks – if it was successful – with the UK before the UK left.

      That would make it much easier for the EU to get into some of these transitional holding pen arrangements than otherwise”.

    48. Edward says:

      Slightly O/T, but relevant
      Not sure if anyone watched today’s FMQ’s
      If you had you would have seen heard Ruth Davidson state that the rest of the UK is Scotland’s largest ‘single market’ and muttered a percentage of around 45%.

      Though on other occasions that someone trying to justify why Scotland should be part of the UK have quoted a higher percentage.

      So what is it exactly?

      Well I have a feeling these spurious figures come from the Scottish Government themselves.
      Why spurious? Well having done a search I found a ‘Statistical Bulletin’ issued by the Scottish Government dated 29th January 2014 (now there could be something more recent)

      But what got me is that this Bulletin was based on estimates from a survey taken in 2012!

      So as far as accuracy is concerned, you would have more chance of wetting your finger and holding up in the air.

      The bulletin is fairly detailed, but then I saw this :
      Respondents comments
      ‘Survey not relevant’ 106
      ‘Do not Export’ 50
      ‘Issue with organisational structure of Company’ 12
      ‘Issue with splitting Scotland figures from UK, also
      issue with quantifying service exports’ 31
      ‘Request electronic facility to send form’ 10
      ‘Other’ 149

      So basically the survey relied on the good will of the respondent

      Unless there is a proper and legal requirement to gather information, then there will never be an accurate figure of exactly how much trade Scotland does.

      The only proper and legal set up for gathering export and import data, is the one that is in place for the whole of the UK, which takes its information from actual export declarations to HM Customs as well as import declarations to HM Customs for the whole of the UK. From that the stats are compiled for the whole of the UK and there is no distinction to which nation in the UK the Export or Import relates to .
      Its basic data, consisting of what the goods are (Commodity), value of the goods and where the goods are going to (or from), which is split into ‘EU’ and ‘rest of the world’ with ‘rest of the world’ split into sub sets for countries.
      The data also identifies the airport or port goods are shipped through. But that’s it

      So unless the UK government enables identification of originating nations within the UK, which somehow I doubt, then all this talk of what Scotland trades with the UK is ‘best guess’

    49. Bob Mack says:

      I often wondered why the orchestra played away whilst the Titanic was sinking. I used to think it was courageous. It actually illustrates quite well what we see today.

      It is stupidity at its peak level. It is denial. It is a certainty that everything will be OK if we ignore it. We will get our turn on the lifeboats because they told us we would.
      This island better snap out of it soon ,as we are heading over a cliff and believing that holding the steering wheel and brake pedal will control that descent.
      Mind numbingly stupid.

    50. Liam Fox voted against gay marriage?????

    51. Big Jock says:

      Eu official quoted in Belgian newspaper stating Scotland can easily become the 28th member. If they get their act together and declare independence before Brexit period ends!

      Some people don’t want to hear this but the referendum has to happen soon and I mean in the autumn.

      The longer we leave it the less likely it is we can stay in the EU once it starts being dismantled. We also allow the Tories time to get themselves sorted out. If we go soon they will be to weak and divided to have a realistic no campaign.

    52. Soutron says:

      @ken500 Absolutely no way should we be drawn into the trap of thinking the Euro would be good for Scotland. Controlling one’s own currency is the most vital lever of economic control a sovereign state can possess. Increase spending to stimulate growth, devalue where required to increase competitiveness.

      The ECB has a surplus fetish. The Euro removes fiscal and monetary policy-making ability from national governments.

      A sovereign fiat currency issuing state cannot be forced to default on debts issued in its own currency. The same does not apply to Eurozone countries.

      Separate Scottish currency all the way.

    53. Graham King says:

      There is no nice one among those listed. They all voted for air strikes on Syria.
      I would say Theresa May is the worst of the lot, for her draconian deportation (mis)rules. A family-splitter, a thug, by means of arbitrary bureaucratic regulations (likely illegal ones, by international human rights law).

    54. call me dave says:

      Geez! You go to a funeral and come back to all this new stuff.

      Broke my vow on radio shortbread waiting outside the crematorium and caught FM Qs where Sturgeon was absolutely supreme. 🙂

      Yesterday I suggested that Boris was too divisive a figure for PM and blow me the Tories are not that daft after all he’s off.

      The unmitigated liar (I’m being kind) was too much for even them to stomach and they realise they have a big problem and no-one to fix it.

      It may be May maybe! Makes no difference now.

      Looks like the NO’s and the leavers in Scotland will need to ponder where they stand. All welcome says Nicola. Good day so far

      Can I listen to auntie shortbread again while I catch up on all those links… thanks!

    55. manandboy says:


      Scotland needs to crack on, following Nicola’s example.
      Our constitutional partner is undergoing major changes which cannot be reversed and which may not settle for some considerable time, and perhaps not for many years. It would be grossly irresponsible for Scotland to just hang about waiting for Westminster to sort itself out. The Scottish Government must take a firm grip of the reins of our own future and move on.

      A referendum about immigration has created in England a nation of political refugees. There’s irony for you.

      There is no status quo any longer in these islands in which to ‘feel secure’ by doing nothing. Every single person in Scotland, England, N Ireland and Wales has just lost their comfort zone whether they like or or not, whether they know it yet or not. Brexit is universally contagious and so everyone suffers.

      Meanwhile the brainwashing continues unabated as millions believe Westminster’s daily batch of lies, the biggest of which is that ‘now we are in control’. Mayhem, confusion, chaos and uncertainty surround us – but we are in control.

      Scotland must go her own way, otherwise we’ll be dragged into the abyss now waiting for England, the elite excepted of course. So I say to every last person in Scotland, think very carefully indeed about your personal future choices, for the consequences of choosing the wrong path will be very painful.

    56. Thepnr says:

      @call me dave

      Not so fast! Scotland will become an Independent country when your in-laws and my mother-in-law switch to Yes.

      I gave mine her own Wee Black Book today, her response “what is it?” “It’s a summary of everything we were promised if we voted No that turned out to be false promises”

      “Well they all lie though don’t they?”

      Work still to be done, busy busy. Mind keep us informed of any progress on the home front 🙂

    57. Mick DIAMOND says:

      Yeah someone else on here spot on. Bojo must have a skeleton in the cupboard.

    58. AdamH says:

      Johnson, B is not standing because, right now, the leadership is a poisoned chalice (he should know, he poisoned it). When the next incumbent fails he will be back posing as the saviour.

    59. woosie says:

      Is there a danger that we take our eye off the indy ball, such is the shambles of a country we’re watching unravel live on the telly? I hope we’re not the gullible rabbits who allegedly watch a fox acting crazy, then get caught unawares!

      I live for the day when the “news” at 6 headlines are;
      Tories in turmoil.
      Labour in turmoil
      England out of Europe
      Meanwhile, in Scotland…..well, nothing seems to be going wrong. Funny that.

    60. galamcennalath says:

      The Rev’s twitter drew attention to this not so historical document.

      “Scottish Conservative Party European Election Manifesto 2014”

      It does mention an EU referendum, however exactly what parts of this manifesto do the Tories feel they will implement now?

      They didin’t stand with a manifesto which explained their plans post Brexit. Now there’s a surprise.

    61. galamcennalath says:

      The Tories are choosing the last PM of the UK.

      Surprised anyone what’s to hold that accolade.

      There will be IndyRef2 soon. Previous talk of timing and minimum polling support have been swept aside by events. If the Scottish people do not vote Yes in the current climate, then the never will.

    62. Ananurhing says:

      We’re headlong through the looking glass now. This is more like a tacky TV reality show than anything resembling governance.

      I wonder what Gove or more likely his missus have over Boris?

      Piggery pokery photos?

      Q. What’s the difference between the EU and a pig?

      A. Getting caught pulling out of a pig isn’t a resigning issue.

    63. alasdair galloway says:

      One point about your chart at the top. You are literally right that Theresa May was not in favour of leaving the EU (though she kept pretty quiet about it), but her statement today makes clear that she is in favour of “control over our borders” at least as much as Gove. However one of the things that has become pretty clear in the last week is that the EU’s “four freedoms” (including movement of people) is not negotiable if a country is to have access to the Single Market (even Norway, not a member, but accessing the market via the EEA, has accepted that). Thus while she might be in favour of membership of the EU, that is pretty theoretical as basically she is saying she is in favour of membership on our terms which the EU is unlikely to grant.
      Just to reinforce that point, in her statement today she said “Brexit means Brexit”. In that regard she seems to believe the pap that because the UK is their largest market that the EU will roll over and give them what they want. The EU might try very hard to do this, but I suspect they are seeking more than the EU would be prepared to grant.

    64. FergusMac says:

      I rarely watch FMQs, but I saw some of it today. I was appalled at the bad manners exhibited by Ruth Davidson in talking to the colleague sitting beside her all through the FM’s responses to her questions.

      That sort of ignorant, loutish behaviour is what I would expect from that cesspit alongside the Thames, not in Scotland’s Parliament.

      Kezia Dugdale came over as reasonable and polite, which I was pleased to see. I was also relieved to see her apportion blame where it clearly belongs.

      Nicola was, of course, beyond impressive.

    65. call me dave says:


      The title of the thread is ‘all things are relative’ how spooky is that.

      My notorious in-laws have their heids under the blanket sucking their thumbs wie their bare erses sticking up at the moment. It has come as a shock to them, “what a shambles” they say ” savings, pensions at risk, lying tories never explained” etc etc.

      They know they were wrong, but won’t say it… but I don’t need them to say it I just want them to go into a polling station and put it right next time soon!

      Will they do it… I think they will. 🙂

    66. Juteman says:

      The UK will be finished by the next UK General Election.
      No Eton Rifle wants to be Commanding Officer when that happens, old boy. That wouldn’t do at all.

    67. Big jock says:

      Exactly Galam. If we vote no after all of this then we don’t deserve to be a nation. It’s win or bust. time to be bold. We cannot wait on WM triggering article 50. Everyone in Brussels has already accepted it was triggered.

      The Tories will have to trigger it by September and it will happen. Even if it doesn’t we are now excluded from future EU member talks so we are out in the cold and out of he EU.

      Get the Bill through Holyrood at least and recall parliament if we have to. Then we go to WM with parliaments consent to hold the referendum. No reason why we cannot have a working bill by September and an agreed date in early Spring next year. If I thought it was possible I would want it in November. Is that even possible time wise?

      Every day we ponder our EU status gets weaker.

    68. Nana says:

      Snp were booked for QT tonight, told they were no longer needed. Union is dead

    69. ClanDonald says:


      “Dr Kirsty Hughes… said Scotland is unlikely to keep the UK’s “awkward squad” opt-outs of the euro, justice and home affairs and the UK budget rebate.”

      Some expert. Doesn’t she know that all member states have a choice whether or not to adopt the euro? if we want to use our own currency (like Poland, Sweden etc etc) no one can stop us.

    70. bjsalba says:

      None of the above.

      I mean it.


    71. Ruby says:

      call me dave says:
      30 June, 2016 at 3:40 pm

      They know they were wrong, but won’t say it… but I don’t need them to say it I just want them to go into a polling station and put it right next time soon!

      Ruby replies

      As I said on the other thread I think NO voters are going to be really hurting at the moment.

      They might need some recovery time!

      How long do you think it would take you to go from being a Yes voter to being a No voter if something unexpected should happen?

    72. Lenny Hartley says:

      Was talking today to an old mate , long term member of Arran Labour Party, he actually likes Ruthie Tank Commander and thinks she beats Nicola easily in Parliament. He is also in favour of Trident. He thinks Scotland is too wee and poor and thinks Nicola is nasty.

      Thing is I’ve known him and been friends all of my life and I know he is bright and anything but stupid. Just goes to show that there will be always about a third of our population who will never come across to yes.

      I like the idea of twin Yes suggestion either in or out of EU. Maximises support for yes.

    73. Jack Murphy says:

      Tory David Mundell oor very own Secretary of State for Scotland is backing May in her leadership bid.
      “Mr Mundell said: “I am backing Theresa May. I think in these very difficult and uncertain times we need a serious and competent politician as our leader.” !

      BBC Archived

    74. Fred says:

      May Wee, still figuring out Fanny May.

    75. Ruby says:

      K1 that is incredible so Spain will have no say.
      That all sounds like common sense.

      Perhaps I wont need my Saltire with the black star representing Spain after all.

      I might have to take back what I said about the Wings flag. It always seems easier than you think to create a nice design. The Saltire is such a bold design it’s difficult add anything. That’s my excuse!

    76. Kevin Evans says:

      Wow – if I am NOT classed as an extremist am doing something wrong.

    77. Greannach says:

      Steven Crabb and Liam Fox are against gay marriage? Well, well.

    78. Macart says:

      A deeply scary individual.

      If social inclusion was given a hammering last week? This is where the mugger keeps using the hammer when you’re on the deck and unable to fight back.

      This week just keeps getting worse and worse in terms of news from Westminster.

    79. misteralz says:

      Daily Mash on form, as usual:

      It’s probably the right time for us in Scotland to embrace kilometers, too.

    80. Soutron says:

      @ClanDonald I suppose she’d argue that we would be obliged to join the Euro (due to Maastricht) i.e. we’d be unlikely to get an opt out like the UK currently has..of course, as you say, signing up to ERM II is voluntary so adopting the Euro is not a necessity.

    81. Nana says:


      Just watched Alex Salmond talking about the state of the labour party, unsure if I can post it here as its a video and scared of hammers!

    82. Thomas Valentine says:

      What’s its like for the Scottish Tories who don’t know who they should be s@#king off to further their careers?
      They should ask Dugdale who’s got more experience with this problem.

    83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Lenny Hartley @ 15:54:

      Was talking today to an old mate… He is also in favour of Trident. He thinks Scotland is too wee and poor and thinks Nicola is nasty.

      Can someone help us out here with the psychology of people like this fella? (And the two old ladies overheard the other day by Marcia.) I really would like to know what would shift them (always assuming they’re not Ulster Loyalist types, who are probably irredeemable. Though given Carolyn Leckie’s example, maybe not even them!)

      The “hate” thing of Nicola Sturgeon is easily explicable. Because she’s so effective, and challenges their stance by being so effective, they project all their insecurities and dislike onto her, aided and abetted by the vile propaganda of the Unionist press. Dislike of her is merely a symptom of their unease.

      Is it merely unthinking tribalism? The more threatened they feel, the more they draw the metaphorical wagons round and refuse to engage. Denial, despite the whirl of facts besieging them? Would they really rather have a Tory government, lead by a right-wing hard case like Teresa May, rule over them in perpetuity? In which case, what does their party allegiance mean for them? Does the Labour Party have to totally collapse before they will crack? And when they do, will they turn to the Tories as your pal seems to be doing or (in the case of the closet racists) even to UKIP?

      What are the sources of support and information that sustain them? The Labour Party itself? The tabloid press? Their social circle (work colleagues, neighbours, etc.)?

      It doesn’t seem to me to be a totally lost cause, since the facts speak for themselves, so what do you think is needed to plant some kind of seed (eg. the Wee Black Book?) that could grow and blossom into an eventual understanding?

      Or will it only take an almighty crash of Labour or even the UK itself to finally shake them out of their self-imposed servility?

    84. Muscleguy says:

      We emigrated to New Zealand from Ayrshire in 1972, not too long before the UK entered the EEC and NZ’s exports faced tariff barriers and restrictions. This was traumatic for NZ but ultimately beneficial. It forced a needed rationalisation and reorganisation of primary production for export. Freezing works were rationalised and rebuilt in places such that animals did not have to travel long distance before being killed and products from those works for export did not have to travel far before arriving at a container port for export.

      NZ has iirc at least 5 container ports dotted around the coasts, one in Dunedin, about the size of Dundee.

      NZ also was forced to find new markets and did so with gusto. Those freezing works have imams who bless the sheep as they are first electrically stunned then their throats swiftly and expertly cut in the halal manner so the meat can be exported to the Middle East as well as everywhere else. NZ sells a lot of primary produce as well as agritech to Iran for eg. What started as high value products to Hong Kong (think perfect peaches and live lobsters) turned into a recent free trade agreement with China. In the interim the humble Chinese gooseberry got revamped for a Cold War world as the kiwifruit and a new primary industry was born. We sold sand to the Arabs and bartered butter for Ladas with the Soviets.

      NZ farmers get no public subsidies, they must live and die in the international and domestic markets. Most are members of co-operatives as a result.

      I don’t doubt that a downgrade of trade with England would be traumatic for Scotland but it is a big wide world out there and 350million potential customers in the EU.

      I also wonder coming back to the shipping thing how much of our ‘trade’ with England is goods sent there for on shipping. I had cause to look on Google Earth earlier for a post on CiF and I can’t find a single container port in Scotland beyond trucks carrying them getting on the ferry in Rosyth.

      It seems to me that post Independence or maybe in advance of it Scotland should look at our port facilities wrt our exports and the land miles they have to travel before getting on a ship. This is part of the neglect of the UK government. There should be one in Edinburgh, one in Aberdeen, one in Glasgow and maybe even some capacity here in Dundee.

      Maybe we could get Amazon to chip in some money in the name of more efficiency for their warehouse just north of the Forth.

    85. heedtracker says:

      When I haven’t a clue what’s going on, I always ask my Slovene girlfriend. As ever neither does she have a clue but she can UKOK tory bullshit with the best of our imperial masters

      Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 3h3 hours ago
      Brexit means huge new powers for the Scottish Parl. That requires Holyrood’s consent. The FM is really going to advise we withhold that?

    86. heedtracker says:


      Pinned Tweet
      (((Kevin Hague))) ?@kevverage Jun 26
      Indyref2: If ever there was a time to pause and reflect and just wait to see how the dust settles, it is surely now

    87. msean says:

      If the question is “what Tory do you want…” then I want out.

    88. Robert Louis says:

      I see the unionist nutters are all shouting about how most Scottish exports go to England. However, is this actually correct? Is it not the case that whilst Scottish goods go to England, it is only to travel via container ports to other countries of the world. That is, England is not the consumer of most Scottish exports – goods just pass through?

      Am I correct in this?

      It just seems odd considering how much whisky we produce to imagine the English to a man, downing a litre a day. Now, whilst current political events may lead to such a scenario (and who could blame them), I very much doubt this nonsense about Scottish exports.

      Anybody clear this up?

    89. frogesque says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland 4.28:

      For the few I know, it would take the S Post and the Diresom Mail, along with Kwiane Shortbread to declare wholeheartedly for Indy.

      The first is not beyond the realms of possibility, the others? Maybe when Hell freezes.

    90. Legerwood says:

      Soutron says:
      30 June, 2016 at 4:20 pm
      “”@ClanDonald I suppose she’d argue that we would be obliged to join the Euro (due to Maastricht) i.e. we’d be unlikely to get an opt out like the UK currently has..of course, as you say, signing up to ERM II is voluntary so adopting the Euro is not a necessity.””

      On joining the EU Scotland it is likely to have to commit to using the Euro BUT this does not mean you commit on the Tuesday and start using it on the Wednesday. Far from it.

      There would be a longish lead in period to allow convergence. Since the Euro crisis the EU has tightened up on the convergence criteria i.e. when your economy is strong enough to transfer to using the Euro. When the Euro was first introduced the criteria for converting to the Euro were somewhat lax to say the least and some economies were given the go-ahead to use it that should not have been within a million miles of the Euro eg Greece, Italy etc. The EU has learned that lesson.

      Even if Scotland was given a timetable for changing its currency to the Euro it could still delay/defer the actual transition. The Czech Republic and Hungary both committed to using the Euro when they joined the EU but both have deferred converting and still use their own currency. I think the target date for one of them was 2010 but it has been postponed and there is still no definite date fixed as far as I am aware.

    91. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 15:22:

      They [the Scottish Tories] didn’t stand with a manifesto which explained their plans post Brexit. Now there’s a surprise.

      By Buffalo Gal’s own admission then they have no mandate for Scexit either via the ScotGE or the EUref!

      I agree with your following post. Circumstances have changed, and an indyref2 needs be sooner rather than later.

    92. heedtracker says:


      Tom Gordon Retweeted
      Nick Eardley ?@nickeardleybbc 1h1 hour ago
      Jeezo. Now Lord Heseltine on Boris: “General that led his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field”

      Tom Gordon Retweeted
      Kevin Schofield ?@PolhomeEditor 8h8 hours ago
      Tory source questions Boris Johnson’s UK-wide appeal: “In Scotland, he makes Mrs Thatcher look like Beyonce.”

      In Scotland, Teresa doesn’t make Mrs Thatcher look like Beyonce.

      PM Teresa May and Ruth Davidson, both straddling a tank gun barrel for teamGB.

    93. Vestas says:

      I live in England & I’m not really seeing any changes in the way people view Labour/Tories even with the recent fiasco.

      Yes there’s a degree of anger but people seem to think that reform of Con/Lab/Lib will make things OK in voting terms.

      Maybe a country can only sustain one “non-establishment” party – England got UKIP & we got the SNP 🙂

      Anyway I reckon England has a fair way to go before they recognise that the duopoly/nepotism of Labour/Tories is the problem, and a fair way further to go to recognise how they’ve been managed by a few of the elite. Cradle to grave indeed but not in the way Bevin meant.. or maybe he did.

      Time to leave. Tick tock….

    94. Clapper57 says:

      David Torrance tweeted :
      “It got lost in the mix but @RuthDavidsonMSP made key point at FMQs,that @NicolaSturgeon is prioritising EU Single Market over (larger) UK SM”

      Funnily enough Gordon Brown highlighted similar point when interviewed the other day stating SM for Scotland from UK is worth more than SM from Europe… this a new weapon for BT in IndyRef2……


      Let’s monitor this SM trend…..who will be next to quote the SM trend comparison ?

      ps. SM is Single Market in case some of you didn’t know ( There’s no ‘&’ in between the SM )….I am a patronising bitch am I not ( rhetorical no responses required affirming this esp. Trolls ).

      Agan apologies if this already noted on previous post…SM bit not me being patronising bitch.

    95. yesindyref2 says:

      Now stop it, just stop it, you’re trying to bring a bit of truth, reality and facts into this, and it just won’t do old chap. It’s not cricket.

    96. ClanDonald says:

      OK, I see what you mean: we won’t get an official opt-out of the euro but we wont be forced to join it either. My apologies to Dr Hughes, the distinction was too subtle for my clumsy brain.

      However, I still don’t think it’s helpful statement to make, that we won’t get an opt out of the euro, it is too open to misinterpretation (I know, sorry…) and will no doubt be leapt on by a gleeful press who will claim it means we will have to adopt it.

    97. mealer says:

      If we want to win an independence campaign,we need a much slicker operation as regards getting our vote out.

    98. Alba 46 says:

      According to a report that I read yesterday the majority of the over 65’s still get their news from the print media and the BBC.
      What this age range has to acknowledge is that the print media is owned and run from London, and the BBC is government funded through the licence fee payers. This means that both of them have an agenda and a duty to represent their political masters.

      In the case of the print media the majority of the owners are backers of the the Union and their output reflects that position. They have no desire or obligation to print a balanced view of anything.It will hurt their profits.

      The BBC are similar in their output. They can’t afford to upset their political masters in case their funding is diluted therefor they go through the motions of trying to give the impression they they are fair and balanced. They fool nobody. Anybody tuning in to Question Time, Scotland 2016, Call Kaye or Scottish Politics on a Sunday are left in no doubt of the blatant bias of the BBC.
      They are not an independent broadcaster they are an establishment/state broadcaster.

      In order to get a more balanced view older people need to go elsewhere to see an alternative view. They should tune into France24, RT, Aljezeera and also go online if possible. There you will find all sorts of different opinions from BOTH sides
      of the argument.

      As soon as any mention of a second Independence referendum is mentioned Project Fear are all over it like a rash. Older people need to ask themselves why there is no positive side to the Independence argument purely as a matter of balance.

      What are Westminster so terrified off. We in Scotland are constantly being told we are an economic basket case and could not exist as an independent country. If that is the case why don’t they just cut Scotland adrift? They could save the
      money that is allocated to Scotland under the Barnett formula (about £30Bn) and spend it on their health service or any other of the westminster fantasy projects.

      Why are the old people not asking the questions? They accept that what the media are telling them is the truth. Older people are conditioned to believe that the are in a comfort zone and there is no alternative.

      A lot of them are selfish and can only see Scotland as they want to see it. They are not interested in a better Scotland either for themselves or more importantly for their children or grandchildren.
      Some of them can’t think for themselves and that is where the London centric / establishment power of the media both broadcast and print comes into play. They are frightened by the unionist propaganda which is pumped out 24/7 and the only alternative is Armageddon.

      Before some of you start to criticise me I am also in this age group at 70 years old. Like most old people it was tough at the start with rationing for years after the war ended. The highlight of my food day was getting the top of my dads boiled egg
      and as special treat we would get tripe. Yes it really was a treat.
      Some of us have chosen to embrace life and the world whilst some of us gave up and accept what we are told. To those old people with their head in the sand think of others instead of yourself there really is an alternative out there.

    99. Vestas says:

      Oh & on the Tory leadership stuff – Gove has always been the one to beat.

      May is unelectable even with the boundary changes in E&W.

      Quite apart from the Snoopers Charter backlash which is likely (once people get a clue) in the next few years she doesn’t have any popularity amongst voters.

      Liam Fox is ultra-right wing even by Tory standards. End of.

      Crabb – lightweight, probably there as a stalking horse for someone else.

      Gove – viewed as a “compromise candidate” of sorts. Not Boris & seems to have some plan, however deranged. Has a brain but no media presence.

      Andrea Leadsom – who & why?

      Fun stuff, long may it continue….

    100. sensibledave says:

      …. well the events keep occurring!

      Ms Sturgeon is given the bums rush by the EU (Spain will never allow Scotland in the EU it seems) and Boris bows out. Indyref2 wont happen until after Brexit (at least 2.5 years away). Theresa May, a “Remainer” is now the leading candidate to take us all to the Brexit.

      I think Ms Sturgeon has some very tricky times ahead. She knows that the SNP cant win indyref2 (despite all the comments above) because she cant tell anyone what Independence will look like. Outside the UK and outside the Eu without a currency is going to wash is it.

      … can’t wait for tomorrow!

    101. liz says:

      I campaigned in a No voting area, wealthy, home owners, business folk and lots of children planning to gain degrees and then take off around europe & the world.

      The proverbial I’m alright Jacks.

      Already hearing of distraught weans who’s internships in Europe are being cancelled.

      If anything will focus the mind it will be that

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, headline on Herald main page “Ex-Nasdaq traders bid to launch new stock exchange in Scotland by 2017
      10 mins ago”

      Clicked link, commented on article, and whole article disappeared. Either being re-written – or perhaps embargoed?

    103. Jim Thomson says:

      @Nana 4:22pm

      You can post a link to the video with (fairly good) impunity 🙂

      If it’s a Youtube one, just strip off the http:// bit and it should be fine.

      If it’s NOT an YouTube one just slap it in with the complete link.

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      Heilige merde: “An independent Scotland could be part of the EU after Brexit without re-applying for membership if London and Edinburgh were to agree, EU officials have said.

      European Commission spokesperson Margaritis Schinas said that the Commission respected the results in Scotland of Britain’s referendum, where a majority of voters supported to remain part of the Union.

      Ummmmm, I think they want us.

    105. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry call me dave, trampling on your wotsits:

      Herald – about stock echange planned

    106. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Clapper57 @ 16:55,

      Looks indeed like a new BT tack. But it’s absurd. (Not that that stopped them before! =sigh=)

      But really! It’s not like it’s got to be one or t’other, is it?

      Firstly, there’s the Irish counter-example. rUK isn’t going to stop trading with the Republic, is it?

      Secondly, the Brexiteers want rUK to become the new Singapore. They’re proudly proclaiming they’re going to trade with the whole world. Why on earth then would they want to exclude Scotland? (And if they did, a la currency union last time, they’re shown up to be false friends and back-stabbing liars.)

      Thirdly, the trade figures are a red herring. As others are noticing, they include and exclude all sorts of stuff. They were a political fix right from the start. We should not get drawn into a pointless “wife beating” argument that validates them in any way whatever.

    107. mealer says:

      Of course,the really depressing fact is that each of these candidates would support an air strike on 3000 refugees.Or 3000 air strikes on one refugee.Weirdos.

    108. heedtracker says:

      Not a peep out of Ruth MacThatcher. Some leader of the Scottish conservative party.

      How come old Ruthy babes always hides when the shit hits the UKOK fan.

    109. call me dave says:


      DD said: “I rather like the sound of that”

    110. Luigi says:

      sensibledave says:

      30 June, 2016 at 5:07 pm

      Clutching straws now, mate. Desperate stuff.

    111. yesindyref2 says:

      Sheesh, what a b***h that Sturgeon is, eh, wee nicky stirring up all the trouble. She should concentrate on working with the UK Government to put temporary covers over the drain.

    112. call me dave says:



      My wotsits are still in the bag uneaten! 🙂

    113. Jim Thomson says:

      I see the GBP has slipped again.

      Young Mr Carney might have to print more money.

      The pound has fallen by more than 1% after Bank of England governor Mark Carney hinted at fresh economic stimulus measures.

      He said it was likely “some monetary policy easing” would be required in response to the Brexit vote.

      A deteriorating economic outlook means action from the Bank is likely during the summer, Mr Carney said.

      Ah well, it’s only my pension that’ll suffer … Barstewards.

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      With all that’s going on, this is me a few seconds ago:

    115. heedtracker says:

      From Rancid The Graun and every tory twit from planet toryboy wants to sticks their oar in, from Ewan Macgregor to vicious old tory coffin dodgers like Heseltine, but where oh where is the Leader of Scottish Conservatives?

      Not sure why we’re supposed to give a hoot what an actor like Ewan Macgregor thinks but that’s toryboy showbiz. Hope Ewan stands for leader though. Actors will save the world.

      2m ago
      Afternoon Summary

      Boris Johnson has sensationally announced he will not stand to be Tory leader after his colleague in the leave campaign, Michael Gove, threw his hat into the ring. He said he had made his decision “having consulted colleagues and in view of the circumstances in parliament”. A number of his supporters blamed Gove, accusing him of treachery. Nigel Evans MP said Gove had “stabbed Boris in the front”. Another unnamed Johnson backer, who is transferring allegiance to Theresa May, told the BBC: “I’d rather vote for Pol Pot than Gove.”

      Tory grandee Lord Heseltine launched a stinging attack on Johnson after he quit the race accusing him of having “ripped the Tory party apart” and creating “the greatest constitutional crisis in peacetime in my life” and then walking away. He insisted that there must be “consequences” for the former mayor of London. Others also criticised him, including the actor Ewan McGregor who decried him as “spineless”, saying he had left it to someone else to “clear up your mess”.

      Gove had earlier announced his own candidature saying he did not believe Boris Johnson has the necessary leadership skills to lead the country. It was a surprise because he had been expected to be part of a joint ticket with Johnson and has repeatedly stated in the past that he does not wish to be prime minister. A number of MPs backing Johnson transferred their allegiance to Gove, even before the former had pulled out of the race. Gove told the BBC he only made the decision to stand last night after being approached by a number of Tory MPs

      Theresa May has launched her bid for the Conservative leadership, pledging that “Brexit means Brexit” and there will be no general election before 2020. The home secretary is the clear favourite with the bookies after Johnson’s withdrawal. During her speech, which was before the former mayor of London’s withdrawal from the leadership race, she cracked a joke at his expense and warned government “isn’t a game”. May said she would focus on “serious social reform”.

      Liam Fox, Andrea Leadsom and Stephen Crabb complete the line-up for the leadership election. Leadsom, a prominent leave campaginer, announced her candidature in a tweet on Thursday morning, saying: “Let’s make the most of the Brexit opportunities!” Fox and Crabb had already announced they were standing. Fox told Sky News he would not back any deal with the EU involving keeping free movement of people. Nicky Morgan and Jeremy Hunt said they would not be standing and would be backing Michael Gove and Theresa May respectively.

      The launch of a report into anti-semitism in the Labour party has been overshadowed by criticism of Jeremy Corbyn. He was accused of comparing Israel with Isis when he said: “Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu government than our Muslim friends are for those various self-styled Islamic States or organisations”. Corbyn denied he was making such a comparison in answer to a question. The chief rabbi of Britain said they were offensive, however intended. However, the chair of the antisemitism inquiry, Shami Chakrabarti, said the media had “spun” Corbyn’s comments. The report, endorsed by Corbyn, said Labour members “should resist the use of Hitler, Nazi and Holocaust metaphors, distortions and comparisons in debates about Israel-Palestine”.

      Jewish Labour MP Ruth Smeeth called on Corbyn to resign after he failed to intervene when she was verbally abused by a Momentum activist at the same antisemitism event. Smeeth, who resigned as parliamentary private secretary to the shadow Scotland and Northern Ireland offices left the event in tears. She said that Corbyn’s inaction showed: “that he is unfit to lead, and that a Labour Party under his stewardship cannot be a safe space for British Jews”.
      Angela Eagle did not announce her bid for the Labour leadership, as had been expected. But she is said to already have the 50 nominations from Labour MPs and MEPs needed to mount a challenge under party rules. Corbyn was hit by another resignation as Rob Marris resigned from his role in the shadow Treasury team during the committee stage hearings on the Finance Bill.
      The decision on expanding airport capacity in south-east England has been deferred until a new Conservative leader is elected, the government said.

      David Cameron had been expected to confirm whether projects at Heathrow or Gatwick would get the go-ahead in the coming weeks if the UK voted to remain in the EU. The business community accused Cameron of putting “internal party politics” before the national interest.

    116. carjamtic says:

      When we get Indy,will we still have to learn Greensleeves at primary school ? (gives away age).

      Boak….(at the song,not the age)



    117. Luigi says:

      Clapper57 says:

      30 June, 2016 at 4:55 pm

      David Torrance tweeted :
      “It got lost in the mix but @RuthDavidsonMSP made key point at FMQs,that @NicolaSturgeon is prioritising EU Single Market over (larger) UK SM”

      Funnily enough Gordon Brown highlighted similar point when interviewed the other day stating SM for Scotland from UK is worth more than SM from Europe… this a new weapon for BT in IndyRef2……


      Aye, but we still need to come up with a snappy answer to this. The fact that England is our biggest export market will be played and re-played ad nauseum. This is just the start. As if we would have no trade with England when we escape from the heel of WM.

      Then there is the oil volatility, the currency etc. And the threats to pensions and we are all Brits together etc. Blah blah blah. We need to have strong answers and, most importantly, a way of getting it to the target voters.

    118. DerekM says:

      Dave she wasnt given the bums rush well if you mean the British unionist media then you are right,they do spin a good yarn,but i suspect you dont.

      What she was doing was acting on behalf of you yes you mr Englishman by doing what the UK government and parliament should be doing and that is discussing the ramifications of just what the conservative party have done,but where are our brave leaders of the mighty UK.

      If you are really a secret Nigel fan then well done he will be your next PM but the tory party are going to face some post election referendum blues oh yes sir just like Labour did in Scotland.

      Enjoy your awakening England not quite what we had hoped for but hey ho,but after that little independence stunt dont you dare try to tell us we cant do the same,oh and we will, better hoped we decide to keep sterling in the EU its the only thing stopping 27 nations attacking it without mercy.

      Thats why we joined in the first place and back then they only had around 8.

      Moved my sterling into gold and bitcoin sterling might not be fit for bog paper in a while and it just might bring the whole economy ctashing on its butt.

      Dont think the EU are going to thank you for that dont think the yanks will either made a right cock of it all old bean.

    119. yesindyref2 says:

      @call me dave
      I think of all the things Indy can bring, having a stock exchange really will bring a flood of tears to the e’es for me. Every time I used to wander past the Stock Exchange Building, I’d think of what was and what could have been. There was a plan about 6 years ago, but it came to nothing. Perhaps this will go the same way, no point in getting the hopes up yet.

      Mmm, cobblers to that, I can hope!

    120. Kevin Evans says:

      I think now would be a good time to go a re read a lot of the articles no voters were invited to write on bella and other sites explaining there reasons for voting no.

    121. Effijy says:

      Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 3h3 hours ago
      Brexit means huge new powers for the Scottish Parl. That requires Holyrood’s consent. The FM is really going to advise we withhold that?

      How can this possibly be?
      Westminster parties all promised, no Vowed to give Scotland Home Rule, as close to a Federal State as you can get.

      That was 2 years ago so we must have it?
      There can be no powers left for us to be promised.
      if that is the case?

      Or is it Round 99 of lies and deceit from the Tory Toffs?

    122. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      30 June, 2016 at 5:07 pm
      …. well the events keep occurring!

      Hey sensible, you’ve clearly got the toryboy hots for May but what’s going to happen to us though with Brexit? Lat night BBC Newsnight Evan whathisface says that its going to mean UKOK growth dropping from forecast 2.5% to minus 1.5%. Even couldn’t bring himself to say UK recession with Brexit. Its amounts to that take back control Brexit £350 million a week lie meaning that the UK will lose that amount every 1-2 days, although he mumbled that away too.

      Are we all heading for UK recession sensible?

      Also sensible, as England got the bum’s rush out of Euro 2016, should the teamGB Olympic football squad for the Brazil Olympics have any English players this time? They are all rubbish and last London Olympics, teamGB only picked English players, which also did really badly too.

    123. Proud Cybernat says:

      ““It got lost in the mix but @RuthDavidsonMSP made key point at FMQs,that @NicolaSturgeon is prioritising EU Single Market over (larger) UK SM”

      The UK SM is larger? Like to see them PROVE it. Fact is they CAN’T prove it. And here was me thinking the iUK wants to trade with the EU (which, emm, let’s think about this – SCOTLAND WILL BE PART OF).

      Fucking in-a-trance Torrance. Tit.

    124. Dr Jim says:

      Get ready to watch Scotland’s gutless Yoons bend their knees and touch their forelocks again while they invent reasons to stay subservient to their Tory masters or maybe Mistresses all over again, but this year STV will do the BBCs fighting for them

      I am informed by Murphy the spy that “journalists” who make stuff up will be “asked politely” but firmly not to do that

      Don’t ask me i’m only passing the message on

    125. sensibledave says:

      Luigi 5.27

      so, one minute I am “desperate” apparently, – the next you are highlighting all of the reasons I am right.

      So many here revel in the discomfort and uncertainty that the “English” have created for themselves (as if the “English” are all the same) and go with a naive assumption that everything that is “bad” down south is “good” for Scottish Independence.

      Time for you all to reevaluate those sentiments.

      We are all going to be in the poo for a while until this all shakes out – but, genuinely, I cant see how any of this will lead to a successful indyref2 anytime soon (the next 3 years minimum).

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      My own answer would be simple. I see no reason to change my good suppliers as a business, many of whom are in England and Wales.

      Not unless equal competition springs up in Scotland perhaps …

      I’m off for a lie down, can’t take much more of this excitement!

    127. ronnie anderson says:

      If everythings reletive , the british politicians ur getting the bird.


    128. Luigi says:

      Coming soon: A List of Lies (brace yourselves):

      1. England is our biggest trading market.
      2. BREXIT is brilliant
      3. Huge numbers of powers are coming to Holyrood.
      4. Scotland will be forced to use the EURO.
      5. 80 million turks will be heading to and indy Scotland.
      6. Terrorist risk.
      7. The UK ecomomy is recovering already – prospects look fantastic.
      8. Europe is bad bad bad.

      Nonsense of course, but they will be spewed, and worryingly, the media will back up their lies. So we need to be ready with answers and an effective mass communication strategy.

    129. Andy.D says:

      T. May for leader, EU out lets sign Article 50 asap, shut the borders. braw

    130. heedtracker says:

      Nice display of English tory twit think sensible, all because England’s got a bit too xenophobic, BoJo’s a chicken and England cant bare the thought of losing control of their scotland region. Some union sensible.

      “We are all going to be in the poo for a while until this all shakes out – but, genuinely, I cant see how any of this will lead to a successful indyref2 anytime soon (the next 3 years minimum).”

    131. Edward says:

      Muscleguy @ 4.32 pm

      I should confess – I am actually a shipping guy 🙂
      with over 40 years experience in sea and air freight, it can be said that I know a bit about exports and imports.:)

      I remember well what New Zealand went through, when they lost the ‘Commonwealth preference’ status with the UK and had to look for new markets and as I understand NZ is doing rather nicely with the Asia Pacific rim market as well as Middle east. NZ still exports to the UK, but is no longer reliant on that market.

      As for Scotland’s trade with England and the rest of the UK, I would actually be surprised if it was as much as the unionists say or try and make out. Scotland has a very healthy export trade to both the EU and around the world.
      The main commodity is food and drink.

      The whisky exports account for a large chunk of the UK’s overall food based exports, as whisky has a similar demand around the world as French Brandy & Champagne . Its a recognised brand that brings in billions in revenues and it can only originate in Scotland.

      Langoustine is another earner for Scotland, which is exported mainly to France and other parts of Europe
      Smoked Salmon is another big revenue earner, which is exported around the world, notably to the US, as well as Europe. The shipments of Smoked Salmon from Scotland are air freighted, so its important to have and develop direct air routes out of Scotland.

      There are container ports in Scotland, notably Grangemouth and to a lesser extent Greenock.
      The problem though is that the don’t have direct trade routes to world destinations, with the bulk of services only connecting to the European ports of Rotterdam and Antwerp.

      At one time, way back when Westminster were planning to join the Common Market, one of the ‘carrots’ was to develop Greenock as a north American gateway, with the idea that components would arrive at Greenock and go to industrial zones outside Greenock and along the Forth Valley including Fife to be made into finished products, which would then be shipped over to Europe from Grangemouth and Leith.

      This may have been why IBM set up a plant in Greenock and HP set one up in South Queensferry.
      Prestwick was also to have been involved in this for feeding in air cargo to this set up.

      But like with most Westminster promises, it was killed off after we joined the EC. Silicon glen which had developed, didn’t really develop properly , due to poor sea route connections and air routes that were strangled due to restrictions set down by London. (for a long period, scheduled long haul was not allowed for any airport in Scotland , other than Prestwick and even then Prestwick had to be a staging post from or to London)

      Successive UK Governments deliberately went about not investing properly in infrastructure such as proper road connections, ports, airports etc. But successive UK Governments were more than happy to invest in the ports of Liverpool, Felixstowe and Southampton with Freeport zones developed and constructing interconnecting motorways servicing the industrial Midlands to the English ports and airports.

      Its only very recent (within last few years) that direct air routes have been allowed to develop, ironically due to EU fifth freedom and open skies policy. So Scotland is having to play catch up in connecting to the world.
      Even now the dead hand of Westminster is at play as its pushing for a ‘hub’ airport in London, so that, in their minds, passengers and cargo from the UK will go through a London airport, instead from ‘the provinces’. The only people that would benefit would be the South East of England.

      There was talk last year about part of Rosyth being developed into a deep water international container port, by Babcock’s. Of course there was objections from Forth Ports Authority, who have been content to sit and not develop anything themselves and who already own Tilbury port in London and were coincidently very much against Scotland’s independence in 2014.

      It is very important that any nation has a developed infrastructure with world class ports and airports to connect directly to the world, in order to export competitively manufactured products, without it, it will never get anywhere. Which is probably why, under Westminster’s watch, there has been a complete lack of enthusiasm to develop Scotland, which wold bring in much needed revenue.

    132. Les Wilson says:

      Re Boris, he is an out and out coward. Got the UK into this utter mess, but thinking of the consequences and the time he is likely to have in parliament, he has run scared.

      FMQ’s Nicola in top, no messing form, slapped down Ruth the Mooth, I particularly liked seeing her do the same to Tompkins!.
      On top of that, she laid into the whole Tory party on the benches. She could not be faulted today, as is the normal.

      Teresa May, she was Alex Salmond’s pick for PM. As pointed out by the Rev in this article, we can expect absolutely nothing from her. Her interest is England through and through, no doubt she will still want everything we have, it IS the English way.

      Ref, the SM, Does anyone know just how much English goods are sold here, because it must be huge all in. When countering the SM angle from the Better Together crew, we need to know what that figure with accuracy. I think it will be surprisingly high.

    133. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 5:37 pm

      …. er, Heedy, I didnt vote “Leave”!

      With respect to growth forecasts, any fall in growth is unhelpful – you seem to revel in the thought of people struggling because they are “english” and they deserve it.

      You wrote “Are we all heading for UK recession sensible?

      … I hope not.

      With respect to Sturgeon V EU, you may think that I might enjoy her discomfort, but I dont, I wish her well. My comments are aimed solely at the decreased likelihood of an indyref2 and the my own view that a successful indyref2 (whenever it might happen) is less likely now because of the events of the last week.

      We both voted Remain, and we both want the majority of Scots to decide Scotland’s future (independence or not). The difference between us is that you are incapable of separating the Press, the establishment and politicians – from ordinary folk.

      So tell me Heedy, using all of your knowledge and insight that mere mortals like me don’t possess, tell me when you think indyref2 will happen and why.

    134. Kenny says:

      May has left a trail of absolute incompetence everywhere she has been — yet it has all been covered up… and she says she is the right person to negotiate Brexit (after hiding throughout the campaign when her own constituency voted 200-0 in favour of Leave).

      Based on her record of incompetence, war-mongering and totalitarianism, I would call her “the poor man’s Hillary Clinton”.

      Or maybe the Englishman’s Hillary Clinton….

      One thing is for sure: support for Scottish indy will rise with May at the helm of the good ship UKOK, cracking the whip and turning the screws…

    135. Bob Mack says:

      I think there is a commentator on here who reeks of jealousy. Impotent at the thought there is nothing he can do for his own country he tries to make others feel just as impotent as himself. Good try,but we actually DO HAVE options Dave whilst all you have is a fat accomplice.

    136. Thepnr says:


      Are you not ashamed of how your fellow countrymen voted?

      I only ask because the majority in Scotland feel that way, we are “in the poo” alongside England though that is likely to be temporary and fleeting.

      I’m afraid that the English electorate voted to remain in the poo and will be getting May or Gove as proof of just how deep the poo really is. No need for jealousy that Scotland will chose not to share the shite you and your revered political leaders choose to wallow in.

      Scotland will decide to find it’s own way out of this mess, what’s that smell? Boris may have just pished his pants, oops.

      Where now for you sensibledave? Trolling on WoS while your world collapses all around you.

    137. yesindyref2 says:

      With respect to Sturgeon V EU, you may think that I might enjoy her discomfort

      Sensibledave, you should try catching up with the news. A lot has happened since 18th September 2014.

    138. manandboy says:

      In England, 13.2million people voted to stay in the EU as against 15.1million for leave. The 13.2million feel that they lost because their nation was lied to by the leave campaign. So a huge amount of bad feeling has been created in England and it will be largely directed to the Tory Party since it was Boris Johnson and Michael Gove who led the leave campaign.

      This is why we read that there will be no General Election after the Tory leadership elections – ‘cos the Tories will lose. This can only lead to further disenchantment with the Tories in England. Beyond that, and bearing in mind that the Labour Party are in very big trouble, it is not hard to forecast lengthy and widespread political unrest in England – and that’s before article 50 is enacted.

      So all the sweet talk we’re hearing just now about how good life after the EU is going to be is just PR spin. It will likely be nearer the truth to say that life in England outside the EU will be pretty hellish.

      I could go on but the picture is already clear – Scotland simply must push on without undue delay to Independence.

    139. Stoker says:

      Just completed delivery of the WBB to every household on my patch.
      I have just as many left so i’m going to have some fun working out how and where to target the remainder. My patch is covered so i can take my sweet time with the rest of them. Ideas most welcome!

    140. Macart says:


      They using that old trade trope again? Simple question for any politician or journo raising that spectre.

      Are you making a naked threat to the Scottish electorate?

      A simple question which demands a yes or no answer. If the answer is yes? The roof falls in on them. If the answer is no? Problem solved.

      Any politician that claims they would instantly close all trade routes to a neighbouring country, or that any trade or border issues could not be negotiated for mutual benefit, for no better reason than a punishment exercise, may find themselves on a bit of a shoogly peg. Still, it would be interesting to see what answer they would give. 😀

      Imagine selling that one to the international community on the back of this Brexit farago? Dang!

    141. heedtracker says:

      So tell me Heedy, using all of your knowledge and insight that mere mortals like me don’t possess, tell me when you think indyref2 will happen and why.

      I have no idea sensible, just like you. Also wishing anyone ill is not my thing, English or otherwise. You call the coming recession a bit of poo to get through but that bit of your poo, may have an influence on ref 2 date.

      The fact that no tory clown dares get article 50 going for a whole range of economic problems, says it all. Well not all, the English political setup has collapsed, Labour are appalling fcukwits, the tories are disastrous but the BBC protects them, there is NO brexit plan, want more?

      Ref 2 for Scotland faces your country’s tory BBC led media’s UKOK Project Fear 2 and its going to be even worse than 2014. We are getting a taste of it now from the Heil, Express, BBC vote SLab Scotland, all local papers etc.

      It all looks unbeatable again sensible. Rule Britannia strike again, and we’ll always have UKOK arseholes like you, coming out with how you only really weally want the majority of Scots to decide Scotland’s future, democratic will, the Vow 2 delivered, strength, safety, SNP bad, sadly.

      But I could be wrong sensible.

    142. People Carrier says:

      I appreciate it’s an easy thing to say and with particular relevance to Scotland, a convenient insult to hurl at the Tories…………but on seeing May today at her press conference, I was completely reminded of Margaret Thatcher. I really was. I just cannot thole it. I don’t want to live in their idea of a nation.

    143. Gary45% says:

      Alba 46@5.05
      No worries regarding K wi an E or anything else on Shortbread radio or TV.
      They will tell you the listening/viewing numbers go up etc.
      In reality the whole empire corporation is dying on its feet.
      Shortbreads phone in, same punters every day, mind numbingly dull and a waste of electricity.
      If they told me I was sitting at my computer at this moment, I would not believe them, and each day more people are realising this.
      Tick Tock.

    144. David Mills says:

      This doesn’t bowed good for folk that beleave in constitutional change we could all be labeled extremist

    145. mike cassidy says:

      Effiji 5.35

      This sets out the basics of the ‘extra powers’ situation.

      Of course, this is another pesky case of ‘uncharted territory’.

      Would the relevant returning powers automatically come back
      as they were released?

      Would Westminster take it on itself to say no, or play hardball with the financial arrangements?

      We are almost in Runsfeld unknown unknownland here.

    146. yesindyref2 says:

      So BBC Scotland is going to tell us how Iceland could be a model for Scotland’s relations with the EU.

      Ummmmm, 62% voted to stay IN the EU.

      Yes, BBC was caught unawares, but it’s firmly back to UKOK propoganda. Next it’ll be Kneel Oliver telling us how Scotland is so good in the UK as part of its coastline.

    147. Liz g says:

      Edward @ 5.58
      Great post full of very interesting information
      Thank you.
      Are you able to give us some sort of idea about how you think Scotland could redress the lack of port’s and how long roughly it might take?

    148. Cal says:

      The thought of May as prime minister sends a shudder down the spine of any mortal. But look on the bright side (!) the last time we had a female English nationalist prime minister we ended up with a Scottish parliament. OK it took a few years but her actions led inexorably to that outcome. So smile, things may get worse for a couple of decades but it’ll all come right in the end!

      O/T Don’t know if anyone has done this already but can I say on behalf of Scotland how much we appreciate the help given to our First Minister in Brussels by the Irish Toiseach Enda Kenny? He spoke for Scotland in the recent EU Council meeting. He was the only head of state to stand up for our interests. Thank you so much for your support. You truly are a gentleman and I’m sure all my compatriots feel they owe you a debt of gratitude. These last few days have shown us who our friends are in the EU and Ireland certainly is a friend to Scotland. We will not forget what you are doing and in the fullness of time will,I’m sure, repay the debt.

    149. Macart says:

      Hopefully folks have Google translate. The news you won’t see in the UK press. 🙂

      They also have a neat wee poll on the home page.

      Are you in favor of membership of an independent Scotland in the EU?

      Yes 79.9%
      NO 14.4
      DN 5.7

      Sample 4793

    150. mike cassidy says:

      People Carrier 6.18

      I had the same reaction.

      It was as if the ghost of Thatcher kept trying to appear in her face.

      Very weird!

    151. ronnie anderson says:

    152. heedtracker says:

      — Nicholas Watt (@nicholaswatt)
      June 30, 2016
      Boris Johnson ally @nadhimzahawi tells me BJ bowed out saying: I am not doing a @jeremycorbyn I am not splitting party. Details #newsnight

      Watt’s another red tory liar, so he probably didn’t say that. He probably said I’m off for a pony, laters Nick.

      If JC’s such a splitter how come more English tory votes were Leave than Labour etc

    153. call me dave says:

      Has the Eagle shit in the nest like Boris or has it swooped in for the hapless Corbyn yet?

      Ruthie demanding chapter & verse on what happens next at FMQs with blushing. We’re havin a larf init!

      Look South Ruthie… and make a statement on your own miserable, incompetent, lying carpetbaggers and stand up for Scotland a wee bit.

      BoE interest rates to go down, savers to suffer but…money for nothing on the cards for borrowers.

      Aberdeen game advertised live on stream but no Hearts…geez!

      I’ll have to watch these third raters Portugal instead. 🙁

    154. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 18:24:

      So BBC Scotland is going to tell us how Iceland could be a model for Scotland’s relations with the EU.

      I’d be more impressed if they told us how Iceland could be an example of a sovereign nation.

      Not “too wee, too poor, too stupid” for them, eh?

    155. ronnie anderson says:

      And this is what happen’s when another lot takeover the Asylum.

      No wonder they dont want people to know the court dates.

    156. msean says:

      I thought that those who used a referendum on the EU to win a general election would have the will to actually go through with article 50. Now that it needs to be done,all the Tories have run away,backed off or are busy stabbing each other in the back,and Scotland,the UK and the EU has to wait till the Tories sort themselves out.So nice of all the world to wait on the Tories.

      Remember,Yes and the SNP were accused during the indy campaign of having Scotland on pause. It was nothing like this.

    157. Cal says:

      Can someone explain to me why the Tories are having a leadership election which will, in all probability, result in the appointment of a pro EU Prime Minister? David Cameron is a pro EU Prime Minister. Why doesn’t he just get his finger out and get on with the Brexit negotiations? What is the point of the leader change? This last week has witnessed the most bizare behavior I have ever seen among our political lords and masters. Is there something Machiavellian going on or are they just fu@!ng stupid?

    158. carjamtic says:

      Edward @ 5:58

      Fantastic post,explains a lot.


    159. Clapper57 says:

      Robert J. Sutherland @ 5.15

      Hi Robert , Tis Project Threat b*stard child of Project Fear ….and there will be another one along in a minute…..and another….. etc etc …plus ain’t new ‘Fear’ same as the old ‘Fear’.

      Remember those days of political drought well we now have a political Oasis of Tsunami piggin proportions and I for one am drowning in …..this is the news…..nope nope….the news is now….nope nope……actually the news is……this is like the Never Ending story….what we need is an author who writes children’s fiction to add to the sub plot of this fantasy just to make it REAL…. ffs…..okay I’ll get me coat now as I may have crossed the line……

    160. Paula Rose says:

      @Stoker 6:11 – wherever the blue rinse brigade get their hair done is a good place for a few wee books.

    161. Muscleguy says:


      I like tripe. I’m only 50 so missed rationing. My Father didn’t and he was a Yorkshireman and liked tripe. It’s nicer when it’s cooked properly, ie not rubbery. Various parts of the continent can do it that way, Florence and Ljubljana (Slovenia) are two where I’ve ordered it in restaurants (yes really, I like it remember).

      Not that easy to find mind. You have to seek it. Sadly Mrs Muscleguy is not keen, hence why I order it when on holiday. We’re going to Vienna later in the summer, maybe the Austrians know how to do it properly.

    162. Thepnr says:

      @David Mills

      If you support Yes then you will likely be labelled as an extremist. Theresa May already had a bill passed that gives the UK state access to ALL our emails, tweets and posts here on Wings.


      Not really funny is it? She will be our next Prime Minister and unless you agree with her views then you are an extremist.

      She supported Remain LOL but sent out vans with “immigrants go home”. She picks arguments with the Police and Fire Brigade over ideological Tory party thinking.

      Didn’t you see the headline in the Revs article above?

      “Theresa May’s definition of an extremist probably includes you”

      Have a read, welcome to 1984 and Big Sister.

    163. Edward says:

      Liz g @ 6.25 pm

      For the port situation I think the damage is done
      To start any new port would nee major investment , not just for the port itself but the complete infrastructure of road and rail.
      On top of that you would have to entice shipping lines to make your new port a port of call.

      Currently lines thinking is that Europe has enough main ports, they don’t want ships stopping too much.
      Example. on far east trade route, usually consists of vessels calling Le Havre, then Southampton, then Antwerp . Or Felixstowe then Antwerp or Rotterdam.
      On the North American trade routes, its a choice of Liverpool then Antwerp, or Southampton then Rotterdam.
      So nothing ventures up the North Sea. Having said that it may be feasible to try to add a call into Scotland between North America and Liverpool or Antwerp and Liverpool on the way west.

      It should be noted that the Irish Republic does not have any direct deep sea routes with all container traffic being shipped out of Dublin to Antwerp, Felixstowe or Rotterdam (depending on the service). Same for the Nordic ports in Norway, Sweden and Finland, which usually feeder into Hamburg or Rotterdam.

      So to get to the stage of having a competitive port, it would have to be lucrative for the shipping lines, perhaps a joint Nordic initiative, which would attract shipments form Nordic country’s to tranship via Scotland instead of Hamburg or Rotterdam.

      For how long it would take, is difficult to say, as it all depends on how the port is pitched to the shipping community. It could take 10 years or 20 years. Some ports like Jebel Ali in Dubai can grow rapidly as they are right on a trade route and there is high demand

      However it is much quicker to develop air routes (which is why its important to get rid of APD).
      Air Cargo is carried in the belly hold of all passenger aircraft , so when a service is introduced for passengers, it will also benefit air cargo as that gives added revenue to the airlines.

      Having a direct service out of Scotland, negates the need to have the cargo trucked down to London, which adds cost for the exporter. So having direct air routes is a winner all round as it brings in tourists and fly’s out manufactured goods

    164. Onwards says:

      >Lenny Hartley says:
      30 June, 2016 at 3:54 pm

      I like the idea of twin Yes suggestion either in or out of EU. Maximises support for yes.


      I think it might be better to have a double mandate for an independent Scotland in the EU. Scotland had a firm majority for Remain last week, but the question was about whether the UK should be a member of the UK.
      Scotland might not be able to inherit the same terms as the UK.

      But the main reason I reckon a YES/YES question is important, is that it would avoid the accusation of automatically swapping one union for another. It would be up to the choice of Scottish voters, and the Jim Sillars brigade could vote YES/NO.

      It’s better to have them for us than against us.

    165. Effijy says:

      Yes Scotland’s biggest export “Might” be down to England, as that would be by their design.

      Most Scottish Whisky and Food produce will leave the UK from England’s Main Docks and Airports.
      If they leave that way, Tax Revenue is payable at the port of Departure, so England claims it all as English Exports.

      If England actually buys anything from Scotland for their own use, than it will be because it offers the best mix of quality and economy.
      They certainly wont be buying anything because they love us, and therefore they will continue to buy from us.

      If Scotland remains in with the stronger purchasing power
      of the EU, we will be over run with the English coming up here for cheaper fuel, food and supermarkets.

      Can we just confirm that England want out of the EU, because they don’t want their neighbours dictating their laws, and yet Scotland, and SNP, are all bad for having the same thoughts, about being controlled by the most corrupt government within the European Union.

    166. heedtracker says:

      Hey sensibledave, this could be the answer to your conundrum

      So tell me Heedy, using all of your knowledge and insight that mere mortals like me don’t possess, tell me when you think indyref2 will happen and why “If the Scots hurry, become independent before the separation process between London and the Union ends and declare be bound by the Community acquis, they could stay in the EU without difficulty by taking the status of the UK. ”

      From my honourable friend Macart’s link to Read and learn sensible, although no doubt a tory yoon like yourself knows much more than say that Scottish diplomat, which I didn’t Scotland had.

      “Nevertheless, Ms Sturgeon said it had reached in Brussels “very open and sympathy” . “There is a change compared to 2014, when the Union looked askance independence Scotland ” , also says Scottish diplomat.

      In the corridors of institutions, some make little effort to hide their smiles at the thought of Eurosceptics reap what they have sown. What better way to prevent a domino effect across the continent Brexit than displaying the torn map of the United Kingdom? “So much the better if Scotland becomes independent, we remain like that twenty-eight. It’s been two years I say: the EU will continue to exist, but not the UK ” , is launching a European diplomat.

      The independence before divorce

      The same source said that the lawyers of the Council have already discussed the possibilities in Edinburgh. “If the Scots hurry, become independent before the separation process between London and the Union ends and declare be bound by the Community acquis, they could stay in the EU without difficulty by taking the status of the UK. ” in short, most London dragged feet over Scotland will have time to prepare the ground for accession to The union. And most likely it is to convince the most reluctant Europeans, annoyed by the endless titubations British.

    167. Clapper57 says:

      Oh and another thing…word is that Theresa May if elected may threaten repatriation of immigrants here as negotiation tool with EU ….yeh well all I can say is………….

      ‘ Welcome back expat Brits. You have a new life now…back in old blighty…bring a brolly….. Ok..UK..Dokey’.

      Ello…….Ello…..Ello……Can I hear Thunder !!!!!!!!

    168. msean says:

      Edward 5:58,interesting post.

    169. Grouse Beater says:

      Torrance the terrible: “Ruth Davidson MSP made key point at FMQs, that NicolaSturgeon is prioritising EU Single Market over (larger) UK SM”

      So, let’s see now.

      England gets to trade with the world, but wee, timid Scotland must only trade with England, and on England’s strict terms?

      Aye. Right.

    170. Marie Clark says:

      Jeez oh, I’m having some job trying tae get to the computer and keep up wae a’ that’s goin oan.

      So Boris has shot the craw. Well, well well. Caused a’ the fuss, and left the mess for others to clean up as he has absolutely no idea where to start.

      The list for the new tory leader does not inspire confidence I must say. Two black hearts and three nobodies. I would have to vote for none of the above given the choice. I don’t know which would be worse May or Gove. May probably.

      Wee tale from two days ago in the local shop. Two auld biddies in for the bread and milk and buying a paper. One looks at the headlines and says tae the ither ” Oh fur goodness sake, they’re still goin oan aboot this referendum. Same oan the telly they never shut up aboot it. The vote wiz last week so it’s din wae noo”. I kid you not. I’m an auld biddy masel, but, really, sometimes you wonder about an IQ test or something before you’re allowed to vote.

    171. HandandShrimp says:

      Definite “none of the above” from me.

      The twists and turns of all this are beyond me. I thought they would go for Boris because of his track record of winning on a sort of bluff populism in London (twice) would guarantee the Brexit type vote for the Tories and an election win down the line.

      I did not reckon on the importance of the internecine battles of a party divided.

      This is nothing if not entertaining though 🙂

    172. Clapper57 says:

      @Edward 5.58

      Hi Edward,

      I also found your post very interesting. Please keep posting here.

    173. Edward says:

      Effijy @ 7.03 pm

      Have to correct you regarding tax revenue paid on exports

      There is no tax revenue paid on any exports. Tax revenue is only paid on goods coming in.

      But your correct in that for stat purposes, regardless of where the goods are made, the export is recorded against exporting port or airport, which means its attributed to that region where the port or airport is.

    174. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      I got it wrong. It was David Edwards, on the SG’s new panel, saying that perhaps Independent Scotland could be like Iceland as a model for the EU while Brexit happened, as it would be unlikely if Scotland could be a full member until the rUK had exited.

      Like I say, I really can’t stand these brain-dead people who post without understanding what they’re posting about, errrrrrr, *blush*

    175. Soutron says:

      @ClanDonald Haha no one ever seems to point out that subtle but significant difference when discussing Euro membership in relation to Scotland…couldn’t possibly be deliberate. I know it’s wikipedia but the map is quite interesting (I’d be happy to see Scotland shaded yellow in the not too distant future!).

    176. Valerie says:

      One of the best visuals today, was a short vid posted by Faisal Islam, who I like, and was savvy enough to stand near Boris supporters at the speech.

      He caught Nadine Dorries, and another Tory, right at point Boris declining to stand.

      It was fab, she nearly fainted. She gulped, and put out a steadying hand to her male colleague, visibly shaken.

      Muppet Soubry never off the box just now, crying over her old mum, or throwing her obsequious weight behind May.

      Angling for a position in the new Thatcher reloaded epic.

    177. heraldnomore says:

      Interesting how it could all pan out:

    178. Edward says:

      Many thanks Clapper57
      Will certainly keep contributing, especially on trade, shipping topics 🙂

    179. DerekM says:

      lol Dave because we will make it happen havnt you been paying attention shall i go through the WoS archives and point out to you where we told you what we would do next the little bonus we didnt expect was getting a chance at the tories and just how fast they crumbled.

      Look at it Dave the tories are up to their neck in major drama leaderless brexit hanging like a bad smell election fruad,split over Europe,Labour are running about in panic over chillcot trying to remove JC before the blairites get fingered,total chaos no UK PM England shouting indy freedom out with everything not English(last bit not our idea you came up with that one on your own)

      In Scotland we have the rump of the red tories on the fence the liberals are pro EU the greens are furious the blue tories screech but are only relevant in the eyes of a press that has switched from red tory to blue tory.

      Lol Dave the porker is gone,gideon career ruined,bojo running for cover,jim murphy wandering eternity talking pish to who ever will listen,lots of labour mp bawbags of all kinds gone.

      Watch out for trolls Dave its a two way street mate lets just say that the last few years we have been rather busy lol

      Now UKIP do you want the same it would be pretty easy though since you guys have something we want and we have something you want i suggest a trade,indy Scotland we promise to keep sterling but have full control over the Scottish half we stay in the EU take over membership,you leave the EU but sterling will be safe,we give you contracts of gas oil and electricity with guarantees and a lock that ensures you always get a good deal in buying and selling energy through the city.

      You change your name to the EIP and call for the end of the UK union and talk with Scotland,we bust it all up ammicably
      with an indyref or soft UDI where we go we are free and you go oh alright after all we just give you westminster on a plate.

      So whats it to be UKIP or are you going to have to get the same treatment,but from that little history lesson dont underestimate us havnt you heard we are vile 😉

    180. heraldnomore says:

      Switch over to see those fine Euro sides Poland and Portugal. Guess what they’re talking about?

    181. frogesque says:

      @ cal 6.43:

      They are just bidding for time. Cameron would have to light the fuse now, leadership election, possible GE, possible new Euro Ref could spin it out for years.

      That, and they are f’in stupid!

    182. msean says: looks like England v Poland v Portugal is on. 🙂

    183. Lenny Hartley says:

      Clapper57 re expats, the Treaty of Vienna 1969 would come into play, giving expats the right of residency.

      See they are tellings the Markets that qe is on the way. Panic stations, means that inflation will rise.
      Don’t see how dropping interest rates to zero will pan out, other countries are managing to sell bonds/gilts with negative interest rates but their economies don’t have the debt and risk that the UK has.

    184. Big Jock says:

      To any trolls on here who doubt we can win indy ref 2. Here’s some thoughts.

      3% of Scotland’s population is Polish. Another 1% are other Eu nationals. They will not vote any other way but yes to maintain their status. Many small businesses have Eu nationals working for them and rely on them. They will vote yes and so will their families.

      Then we have people who feel a loss and anger about losing their Eu identity. Many in The Labour party! Then we have the fundamental issue of democracy in Scotland. I will not give up my EU passport if given a choice and most people will choose the comfort of the Eu over little angry friendless England. Suddenly that 6% swing doesn’t seem so big eh!

    185. sandycraig says:

      Edward 5.58 and other posts.

      Excellent posting on a subject I suppose many of us know little about.

      Scotland does have many ports but I think they have been neglected. Ports like Methil, Burntisland etc in the Forth many years ago were bursting with trade, coal, bauxite, potatoes etc. Huge underinvestment and a change of shipping patterns to blame in my opinion.

      Montrose now a busy port with mostly oil work but still has cargoes of grain and potatoes. Dundee and Montrose have rail links as well.

      The country could do with someone like you to oversee a bit of development in this sphere.

    186. Polscot says:

      Well that’s a turn up, Boris has ruled himself out of the PM job!

      He could fancy his chances at running the national team instead, now that he has nothing else in his schedule. Does he know that if he gets the job, he will need to lead those three lions back into Europe again, could be the FA will want someone already with relevant experience in getting England out of Europe? Now it all makes sense.

    187. Robert Peffers says:

      @Stoker says: 30 June, 2016 at 6:11 pm:

      ” … My patch is covered so i can take my sweet time with the rest of them. Ideas most welcome!”

      How about :-

      4 Matthew Parker St, London SW1H 9HQ, United Kingdom




      It is the –

      Wait for it!
      Wait for it!

      The Conservative & Unionist Central Office, Address

    188. shiregirl says:


      Watching C4 news and Crick had fighting behind him at Westminster!!

      Am I hallucinating?

    189. WP says:

      Big Jock, Thanks for that, after reading some peoples
      negative views I got slightly apprehensive, but you have
      restored my confidence. We also must remind everyone
      of the elephant in the room, debt of £1.6 trillion, kind of
      puts £7.4 billion or even £15 billion into the shade.

    190. starlaw says:

      Edward 5.28
      Excellent piece.
      Deepwater ferry port near St Abbs Head with connecting motorways to Central belt and Cairnryan would open up Dumfries and southwest area’s with connections to Ireland. Would need investment but would pay for its self in the long run.

    191. Andy B says:

      I have seen nothing that shows Theresa as the “nice one” compared to the others. Especially as Gove was also pro for gay marriage. It seems you simply judge it purely on pro-EU or not then, despite Theresa’s horrendous history (which the others don’t all share). Theresa’s past behaviour flew in the face of everything the pro-EU cheerleaders here and elsewhere supported anyway and as things have turned out she was on the wrong side of history and the Tory factions.

    192. sensibledave says:

      Heedy, 7.05

      … I note, as usual, all waffle and no answer. When will indyref2 be Heedy? 3 years, 4 years, never?

      In what world do you you think a Spanish prime minister is going to vote to allow an independent Scotland into the EU???

      What currency will voters be voting for in indyref2?

      Answer the questions and I will take you seriously.

    193. Inverclyder says:

      Edward @ 5:58

      Excellent informative post.

      IBM arrived in Greenock in 1951. Originally they built Typewriters and then moved onto Computers etc.

      During the time IBM were in Greenock there was also US Polaris and Poseidon at Holy Loch from 1961–1992 with Holy Loch originally being used as a base for Navy subs during WWII. This gave the subs easy access via the deep channel in the Firth of Clyde and out to the North Atlantic to play cat and mouse with the Russians.

      There was talk locally that there were links between IBM and the Holy Loch and only a fool would think different.

      Looking for a three eyed fish? Try the Holy Loch!

      With the grants that that Thatcher and successive Governments gave IBM to stay in Greenock and almost total destruction and demise of local shipbuilding industry there was a market for cheap labour.

      Around 2002 the WWII Debt owed to the US was paid off with the Yanks leaving in 1992 just before Trident. Polaris was replaced with Trident with the first patrols starting in 1994.

      Grants + cheap labour meant that IBM could keep producing their PC’s etc in Scotland until the market started moving to Eastern Europe and the Far East.

      When the grants stopped and the UK debt to the US finally paid off IBM sold off parts of the business they no longer required and shipped the jobs elsewhere.

      Think there’s around 100 people still working for them locally now as a call centre or helpdesk type place.

      More info on IBM….

    194. HandandShrimp says:

      Sensible Dave

      You seem to assume that all Spanish PMs are Rajoy. They are not. The issue of Scotland is not as vexatious to all Spanish politicians just as the issue of the EU is not as vexatious to all Tory politicians

      On currency I believe that we will use the Scottish pound.

    195. Thepnr says:


      Apologise to Scotland on behalf of your country for taking Scotland out of Europe against our will and I will take you seriously.

      Otherwise keep your gub shut as no one is listening.

      PS Your currency is tanking or hadn’t you heard?

    196. Big Jock says:

      WP My boss at work was outraged on Friday. Said he was joining SNP. Hated the Tories. I said today indi ref 2 is coming. He is backsliding already. Oh I think that will backfire. Let’s see what happens etc.

      I told him that this was not a football match where the referee was a ringer. This was about your Eu status. You don’t just get angry and move on.

      You get angry and try and change what it us that you are angry about. Mind you he predicted remain would win by 10% while I studied the polls and said narrow leave win.

      So the moral is. Don’t listen to the ill informed who read scatter gun headlines Un The Metro. We are going to win indi ref 2. People have accepted it’s necessary.

    197. Big Jock says:

      Emergency is there a spokesman from the government on here. Sensible needs to know the referendum date as he needs to get his English bunting bought for that day.

    198. Rock says:

      Nicola has found out, in the unlikely event that she didn’t already know, that the EU might listen politely to her but cannot and will not deal with Scotland until and unless Scotland is out of the UK and independent.

      She will lose a lot of the goodwill she has now if she doesn’t clarify very soon that under the current situation, Scotland cannot remain a member of the EU as part of the UK when the UK leaves.

      Make it crystal clear that an independence referendum will be held if Scottish public opinion calls for one.

    199. Thepnr says:


      Keep up to date.

      I think Nicola has already made clear that an Independence referendum is “highly likely” though I guess that is not clear enough for you.

    200. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      30 June, 2016 at 7:56 pm
      Heedy, 7.05

      … I note, as usual, all waffle and no answer. When will indyref2 be Heedy? 3 years, 4 years, never?

      I told you I dont know. I do know what a catastropic disaster Leave winnning is so far in teamGB. England has removed Scotland from Europe, against our will. Spain may block an independent Scotland but they may not be able to block the successor state of the UK, Scotland, or “take the EU status of the UK, before which ever tory nutcase PM does actually decide to hit the art 50 button.

      C4 news in Holland just there, showed us just how much a lot of tory England really wants to see the EU collapse but the EU isn’t blind to this tory England wishing for their end.

      Once again sensible, the real block on Scots staying EU citizens and becoming Scottish citizens ofcourse, is the tory BBC led English media bundle of UKOK delights, gearing up already for a colossal Project Fear 2.0 campaign.

      They have to win too. How ever will little England survive without it’s scrounger region of Scotland?

      Like the Belgium newspaper says sensible

      “If the Scots hurry, become independent before the separation process between London and the Union ends and declare be bound by the Community acquis, they could stay in the EU without difficulty by taking the status of the UK. ” in short, most London dragged feet over Scotland will have time to prepare the ground for accession to The union.

    201. shiregirl says:

      But hey, what a time to be alive!! (as I listen to Patrick hernandez ‘born to be alive’)


    202. Tam Jardine says:

      Big Jock

      To add to your list: (not 100% of course though it should be)

      Former no voting students

      New intake of 16-18 year olds

      Farmers and businesses connected to farming

      Anyone who wants to move abroad in the future

      Businessmen who trade with the EU

      People who work in financial sector

      People with family living in the EU

      Non EU ethnic minorities resident here afraid of the direction of travel down south.

      Anyone who has moved here between EU ref and indy ref 2 disgusted by the state of play down south

    203. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippy Dave: “In what world do you you think a Spanish prime minister is going to vote to allow an independent Scotland into the EU???”

      You’re still intent on practising sadism here.

      Rajoy made plain he would NOT and cannot stop Scotland being part of the EU. “When it arrives it won’t be up to me, I won’t be here.”

      More here:

      Don’t think of tossing (pun intended) one of your puerile fuckwit smug questions in my direction. Instead I suggest you get your prostrate checked for tell-tale signs of acute swelling, but ask your doctor to look inside your ear. The only thing up your rectum is a serious blockage of half-masticated Tory propaganda and a dead squirrel.

      The sooner aged domino players get on with their lives and leave Scotland to address its own affairs the better.

    204. R4 says:

      Can’t help thinking about Trading Places, the movie.

      Boris bet Davie £1 that he could get UK out of EU.

      Makes as much sense as anything else.

    205. Grouse Beater says:

      Rock: “She will lose a lot of the goodwill she has now if she doesn’t clarify very soon that under the current situation”

      Oh, for kerrist sake.

      From where do these inane masturbators get their orders?

    206. Rock says:

      Les Wilson,

      “Re Boris, he is an out and out coward. Got the UK into this utter mess, but thinking of the consequences and the time he is likely to have in parliament, he has run scared.”

      He will need to always look behind his back now.

      The racist English mobs him and Farage have emboldened will not hesitate to lynch him given half a chance.

      But at least the BBC will call them “British” mobs.

    207. Ewan (yoon) McGregor not happy with Boris,

      thinks Boris has done a runner after being instrumental in the Brexit campaign and left everyone else to clean up his mess,

      whereas during Indy1, Ewan told us we were Better Together and stick with the Union,

      not long after Indy1, Ewan decides England is not for him and proceeds to eff of to USA,

      leaving us to put up with the Union while he disappears,

      effing hypocrite.

    208. ephemeraldeception says:

      Thanks for the link Macart.

      The key part for me is this:
      “Dans les couloirs des institutions, certains font peu d’efforts pour cacher leur sourire à l’idée de voir les eurosceptiques récolter ce qu’ils ont semé. Quel meilleur moyen d’empêcher un effet domino du Brexit à travers le continent que d’afficher la carte déchirée du Royaume-Uni ? “Tant mieux si l’Ecosse devient indépendante, comme ça on reste à vingt-huit. Ça fait deux ans que je le dis : l’UE va continuer à exister, mais le Royaume-Uni pas”, lance un diplomate européen.”

      Since I live and work in France, here is a translation for Wingers who may not get the full gist:

      In the corridors of Eu institutions some people make little effort to hide their delight of the idea that the Eurosceptics should reap what they sow.

      What better way to prevent a domino effect of Brexit across the continent than the UK map ripped apart?

      “Its better that Scotland become independent, like that we remain 28 members. That’s 2 years I have been saying ‘the EU will continue to exist, but not the UK’ stated a European diplomat.

      No name mentioned.


    209. The Man in the Jar says:

      All those saying that we will lose trade with the remainder of the UK. What about Ireland it is in Europe it doesn’t stop them trading with the UK. It is not a binary choice we can do both.

    210. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      Our priority SHOULD be independence, in any forthcoming referendum. It should not be complicated by other questions on the ballot paper.

      Once we vote for independence, the date of which should be prior to, but no later than the date of BREXIT, the people of Scotland could then have a multi-question referendum to decide specific issues, like membership of the EU, which currency we want to use (new Scots Pound?), the monarchy, the colour of $h!t€, and so on, possibly within 6 months of the independence date.

      There’s no point in having a referendum question on membership of the EU (or anything else) UNTIL we, as a nation, have the power to act on the popular result.

      It would be a bit of a downer if we voted to remain in the EU – but lost the “Should Scotland be an independent country” vote.


    211. Robert Peffers says:

      @starlaw says: 30 June, 2016 at 7:51 pm:

      Edward 5.28
      Excellent piece.

      Very much agree. Welcome to Wings, Edward.

      ” … Deepwater ferry port near St Abbs Head with connecting motorways to Central belt and Cairnryan would open up Dumfries and southwest area’s with connections to Ireland. Would need investment but would pay for its self in the long run.”

      Never forget Rosyth either. It can accommodate muckle aircraft carriers, has good rail links and the M90 is just next door that connects to the M80 & thus the M74.

      Scotland does not lack either deep water ports or airports but has been neglected by Westminster except in times of war when they needed us.

      Anyway we will need to improve our exporting ports when we are independent and don’t send everything to the most distant bit of Britain to get exported.

      As to the supply of oil, gas and electricity. Westminster has been ripping them all off since ever there was a national grad and the North sea began to produce.

    212. Stoker says:

      @ Paula Rose (6:51pm)
      Noted, thank you!

      @ Robert Peffers (7:39pm)
      I knew there was a wee wicked streak running through you Peffers.
      I might just reserve my very last copy for such an idea.

    213. Liz g says:

      Edward 7.00
      Thanks again for your reply.
      Hope you will keep us updated with your thoughts as things move along.
      As it’s really the only way left that helps us to work out who is bullshttig and who might have a point.

    214. heedtracker says:

      If the SNP are good at one thing, its winding up the teamGB establishment

      Tick tock Lady Mone, Baron’s Flipper, Floukes and the near on 70 Scottish troughers that will choke on whatever expensive grub and hooch they’re all swilling down for free tonight.

      Uncertainty. Frankly.

    215. Still Positive. says:

      SNP on the ball again – just completed a survey (on FB)for them re indy and eu. 14 questions.

    216. Grouse Beater says:

      Scot: “Ewan (yoon) McGregor not happy with Boris”

      Could that be a parody account? I’m surprised to see McGregor go public so blatantly with his political likes and dislikes. If it is him there has to be a big budget epic on Imperial England about to cast a lead role.

    217. Rock says:



      Keep up to date.

      I think Nicola has already made clear that an Independence referendum is “highly likely” though I guess that is not clear enough for you.”

      I don’t matter that much.

      But the good people of Scotland must be told very soon in no uncertain terms that it is impossible to be part of the EU without being independent.

      Otherwise, she will lose the momentum and goodwill she has now.

      There is ZERO chance of the EU discussing anything with Scotland while negotiating Brexit.

      Do we want to remain in the shadows for two years?

      And then start negotiations which would force us to accept many things we might not like?

      An independence referendum will have to be called very soon, and independent Scotland ready to take over from where rUK left from day 1 of Brexit.

    218. Clapper57 says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      30 June, 2016 at 7:33 pm
      “Clapper57 re expats, the Treaty of Vienna 1969 would come into play, giving expats the right of residency”.

      Hi Lenny, cheers for that good to know, however I think she is in Tory leader election mode so although she may be firing blanks she hopes her target audience is the ‘uninformed’ who voted ‘leave’ for WRONG reasons and she is pandering to those who may vote for UKIP at next GE and is trying to win them over, and any other like minded people. Assuming she wins Tory leader election.

      Shame on her for sinking to UKIP gutter level however my point was that as a typical Tory the ‘threat card’ is a weapon they tend to use to enforce their dictatorship style of politics. We, the Scots, have been there and now it’s the EU’s turn….problem is ……the Tories don’t want to acknowledge that, in this instance, the (old/former) UK will not have the winning hand (IMO they never had it with us either).

      For all her unenforceable threats people need to question this particular threat is a two way street at the very least , whether feasible or not i.e. British expats position in EU countries .Dare I ask if people are that stupid not to see that / think that……BREXIT…um…okay I concede they ARE that stupid. Also I am sure they are also oblivious to Treaty of Vienna 1969 ( as I was ) . Also why even vocalise this threat if it is a no goer.

      I Think it’s the EU who holds the ace card….but hey ho …..Rule Britannia and all that….delusional as usual in their superiority…..pride before the fall…and you can count Farage and co. in that too…….their time will come ……popcorn on tap moment for sure. Oh Yeh !!

    219. Greannach says:

      Scottish Conservative party and their leader. So selfless. Spain must wish Portuguese party leaders had Spanish voters’ interests at heart rather than their own constituents’.

    220. Tam Jardine says:

      Scot Finlayson

      I would expect Ewan will be supporting his country next time round. There is no other way for anyone who loves Scotland.

      Plenty famous Scots move abroad. Indyref1 is now history. He has some trainspotting mates that will get him into the fold.

      One sinner repents and all that man

    221. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Scotland must have Independence before considering any other issue. I would have hoped that much is obvious.

      Muddying the waters with things that are contentious is a Unionist trait and best ignored. Eyes on the prize we won’t be fooled again!

    222. Hamish100 says:

      So many Scots to choose from for being PM says the BBC.

      No not really. They are all little Britons of the worst kind who put Scotland down and put them first. A bit like ex BBC hack Davidson and crew

    223. Tinto Chiel says:

      Tam Jardine and Big Jock’s lists can only get bigger.

      Enjoying all the erudition and passion on here tonight because it’s a pre-wedding Girls’ Night In at Tinto Towers so I sought refuge at the local Cantonese Restaurant (all for Yes) and read the blt comments. Left my National, there, of course.

      It’s in the bag. My fortune cookie said, “A wish will be fulfilled soon.” I rest our case.

      Muscleguy: the French are good with tripe, particularly in the north.

      Edward: excellent post.

    224. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Very positive, refreshing blog post here from Neil Scott, ex-SSP:

    225. White Van Wummin says:

      @ K1 – 2.51pm
      Thanks for the “Scotland transitional holding pen” comment, real interesting.

      Archive link to it in the grun post…

    226. Thepnr says:

      But the good people of Scotland must be told very soon in no uncertain terms that it is impossible to be part of the EU without being independent.

      I believe we will be told only after all other avenues have been exhausted. It is all a bit of a game as I’m sure you know.

      Otherwise, she will lose the momentum and goodwill she has now.

      I doubt she will lose any goodwill at least as far as I’m concerned she is playing it perfectly. probably gaining goodwill from the strangest places. Just my view.

      There is ZERO chance of the EU discussing anything with Scotland while negotiating Brexit.

      Agreed and that was always going to be the case.

      Do we want to remain in the shadows for two years?

      We won’t be be in anyones shadow, in fact “losing” Scotland is likely more of a problem for England than being out of the EU. We will be on the front pages from now until Indyref2.

      And then start negotiations which would force us to accept many things we might not like?


      An independence referendum will have to be called very soon, and independent Scotland ready to take over from where rUK left from day 1 of Brexit.

      I’ll happily wait on the decision of Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish government to decide when to call for the second referendum. I think they are likely to know best, I really do.

    227. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Heedtracker Gethings should have added in the unelected Remembracer , for added disruption . His bill is doomed to fail, but will waken up the People in England & Wales.

    228. X_Sticks says:

      Don’t see anything posted by Lindsay yet, so just in case any of you don’t yet know he’s started a crowdfunder:

      “Help us produce and distribute 11,000 Yes flags to support indyref2, and an independent Scotland in Europe.”

      Get stuck in folks. Time to get ready.

    229. Macart says:


      All thanks to WGD for pointing us in the right direction on that piece. He also has extensive experience of the Spanish scene and his insights are invaluable on that front. 🙂

    230. david says:

      It may be worthwhile completing this survey…

    231. Still Positive. says:

      Just seen on the BBC website (I know, I know ) that the EU Trade Minister has said there will be no negotiations until Brexit and UK not allowed to set up deals with other countries until after Brexit. So will revert to WTO rules.

      What does that mean for indyref2? Sooner rather than later?

    232. tartanpigsy says:

      Echoing what X Sticks just posted

      Brand New Yes saltire and EU Saltire campaign just been launched, but it is so much more than just that. This campaign if properly funded will provide a springboard via materials and hence finance to get a lot of the local Yes hubs and groups back up and running. It can do this by way of materials to get out there and create an atmosphere that Scotland is once again on the march and is taking back control.

      Lets get on it

      As one of the organisers of the original campaign 2 years ago, be assured we are fully onside and backing this campaign.

    233. Ruby says:

      What does England sell to the world?

    234. ephemeraldeception says:

      Here’s a thought:

      In the coming months the European perspective is of key importance. More so, is to get a temperature without the prism of whatever distortion the BBC care to put on any statement or analysis of EU positioning.

      I drop into Wings on a near daily basis. So, please feel free to ask me to translate any French content via this forum.

      Perhaps others could do the same for Spanish/German/Dutch etc or even Nordic opinion. The more perspective we have the better.

    235. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      I’m pleased you agree with me! (Still not having your babies though…)


    236. HandandShrimp says:

      Without wishing to be too negative, I am not convinced there is anyone willing to push the article 50 button in Westminster. This could be a very long goodbye from the UK.

      If they do push the button then I think it is looking increasingly like independence will be the only option. If we could pick up successor nation status along the way then so much the better.

    237. Thepnr says:


      Glad to hear you say that as you were the original Yes flag fundraiser. I’m off now to make a small contribution.

      It’s starting, lets get on board and show our support.

    238. Marcia says:


      The answer is mayhem.

      Regarding Gove, I have seen more charisma on a corpse.

    239. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 30 June, 2016 at 7:56 pm:

      “… I note, as usual, all waffle and no answer. When will indyref2 be Heedy? 3 years, 4 years, never?”

      Dear God! Where the hell have you been sensibledave?

      First of all the media are, as usual, distorting facts and secondly the Spanish will fall in line for more than one reason.

      First of all if Scotland remains as an independent member of the EU, (note: remains not becomes), then the Spanish will be very pleased they did. The Spanish Fishing fleet is the largest in the entire EU and fishing is a main plank of the Spanish economy.

      It also has a big fish processing industry. Spain fishes a lot in Scottish waters and Westminster gave away the Scots fishing grounds to the EU to benefit England.

      Would a Scotland independent and not in Europe be likely to allow a foreign hostile Spain, who had thwarted Scot’s EU ambitions, to fish in her Scottish territorial waters?

      Then there is Gibraltar – a UK colony that is also claimed by Spain. However, Gib also voted to remain in the EU and has already made advances to Scotland to unite to remain in the EU. Would the Spanish really want an independent Scotland to take in Gibraltar?

      Remember, that in spite of the Westminster claims, the Treaty of Union is a bi-partite union and Gibraltar has as much right to go with Scotland if the Union splits up. Remember also that Northern Ireland has the same choice but I’d speculate, due to the history of Irish based sectarian trouble in Scotland, the Scots will remain rather cool towards Northern Ireland.

      ” … What currency will voters be voting for in indyref2?

      Answer the questions and I will take you seriously.

      Dear God what misinformed pish!

      Nicola Sturgeon categorically stated, several weeks ago, that an independent Scotland would be using her own currency when independent.

      Her own currency is the Pound Sterling. That is what Scotland used before 1 May 1707 and it was the agreed currency with her only equally sovereign partner in the Treaty of Union.

      Now it may not have penetrated your head that in the event of one partner in the two party treaty that formed a United Kingdom leaving the union, there is only one party left

      In no way can a single Kingdom be a United Kingdom – who would they be united with?. Remember that the Kingdom of England in 1706/7 had already annexed both Wales and Ireland. There are no Welsh or Irish signatures on the Treaty of Union.

      What Nicola Sturgeon DID NOT state was that an independent Scotland would even consider being in a currency union with the greatly indebted Kingdom of England.

      In case you wondered, there are several countries or states throughout the World that use the Pound Sterling but do not have a currency union with the UK. There are also several other nations that use the USA Dollar but who are not in a currency union with the USA. Seems to work well for them.

      In case you don’t know it the pound Sterling is an international trading currency and is thus a trading commodity like any other commodity.

      Why did you imagine that the media reports how the pound stands against the other international trading currencies? Any country that cares to can use the pound Sterling simply by buying it on the open market.

    240. Legerwood says:

      Ruby @ 9.31 pm

      Not very much would be the answer. The UK’s trade deficit is eye watering.

    241. JimBo says:

      Thanks to Theresa May, I missed the first 6 months of my daughter’s life. She’s not so popular in our household.

    242. ephemeraldeception says:

      @Rock, I don’t normally interfere in these kind of disputes, but:

      Is it not clear that Nicola S. is going down the current path in order to show that all avenues to keep current EU rights and privileges have been exhausted except: An independence vote to leave the UK?

      The EU States cannot negotiate and discuss with part of a member state. Not overtly at least. All this is to show that:
      a) EU states are sympathetic of Scotlands case. But:
      b) Legally and politically their hands are tied.

      leads to:
      c) All bets are off for a 2nd referendum and that EU will now be more welcoming (overall) as it is an expansionist club.
      d) Its in their own interest as they really, Really, REALLY do NOT want other states to leave.



    243. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Flags’ now at £3490. (23% of £15k target)

      Does anyone know precisely when it went ‘live’?

    244. Rock says:


      “I believe we will be told only after all other avenues have been exhausted. It is all a bit of a game as I’m sure you know.”

      As you hopefully know, there are no other avenues.

      And folks don’t like politicians playing games.

      We have the momentum and goodwill from all sides (except the Tories for whom you have a soft spot).

      We will lose it and again struggle to get more than 50% support if Nicola doesn’t say very soon that the only option is independence.

      The likes of the JK Rowling, McLeish, the Daily Record are not on our side.

      They will very soon start stabbing us again.

      Strike while the iron is hot.

    245. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian B.

      “Went live…” I’m pretty sure it was this morning, going by the link I saw on the Rev’s Twitter feed.

    246. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Onwards @ 19:01, Lenny Hartley @ 15:54,

      I could not disagree more. NO!

      No complications, no sidetracks, no diversions, One question only, about a sovereign nation.

      If we learnt anything from the last two referenda, it was to keep it focussed.

      Don’t give the yoons any crack to drive a wedge in, to stir up trouble, cause diversions.

      Yes, some leavers voted “yes”. But don’t pander to those trying to revisit the failed leave vote in Scotland. I’m not even sure these people are even pro-indy. For every person you supposedly retain for “yes”, you will lose droves of new converts from “no”. If they are sincere about indy, they will for the most part they will again.

    247. Tinto Chiel says:

      Rock: do you ever attack our enemies?

      It would be nice to know.

    248. Rock says:


      “@Rock, I don’t normally interfere in these kind of disputes, but:

      Is it not clear that Nicola S. is going down the current path in order to show that all avenues to keep current EU rights and privileges have been exhausted except: An independence vote to leave the UK?”

      See my response to Thepnr above.

      “in order to show that”

      Folks quickly lose trust in politicians whom they think are playing politics with them, making a “show” of it.

      Nicola has been politely listened to by the EU.

      Now she must quickly tell the people that there is nothing else that can be done without independence.

      I am not an expert on history, geography, law or the constitution.

      But it is crystal clear to me that there is absolutely no way that Scotland can achieve anything relating to the EU until and unless it is out of the UK.

    249. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      JEEZ Rock!

      You’re like the bairn in the back of the car, who repeats every 30 seconds, “ARE WE THERE YET?”

      The driver knows what she’s doing and you’ll know when we’re there. Now go suck a teat and calm down.

    250. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rock says: 30 June, 2016 at 8:06 pm:

      ” … Nicola has found out, in the unlikely event that she didn’t already know, that the EU might listen politely to her but cannot and will not deal with Scotland until and unless Scotland is out of the UK and independent.”

      Utter (unsubstaniated), pish! As usual.

    251. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert J. Sutherland.

      I’m with you.

    252. Graeme says:

      “I kid you not. I’m an auld biddy masel, but, really, sometimes you wonder about an IQ test or something before you’re allowed to vote.”

      I have often thought that, My fathers next door neighbour said to me during Indy1 em votin NO cuz eh dinna like that Alex Sammin

      It’s not such a far fetched idea Marie if nothing else prove they’re capable of joined up thinking

    253. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      (oops, sorry for the ending of my previous posting, which seemed to submit itself before I had quite done with it. I was going to conclude:)

      If they [leavers] are sincere about indy, they will for the most part still vote “yes” again. The indy movement contained people with very disparate views on how to proceed afterwards with many things (eg. on the future of the monarchy), but all were willing to combine together to achieve that one essential thing without which nothing else would be possible:

      independence first!

    254. Macbeda says:

      Nearly O/T

      Why the hell do we Scots always fight amongst ourselves all the time. All through our bloody history we fight and fight and the English keep coming to conquer and try to rule us because we are divided.

      We’ve had this for almost thousand years.

      Time to feckin stop and pull together for a change.

      Start to fight between yourselves after independence FFS.

    255. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Briandoonthetoon { Now go suck a teat and calm down. }
      noo Rock could be ah rite greedy basterd an want the Udder.

    256. Ruby says:

      At the moment I am not interested in what the Tories or the Labour Party are doing.

      I’m intersted in all this export/single market stuff.

      If you go to the bottom of the article under the University of Stratclyde green banner he states:

      ‘A study for the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) compares the trading integration of Scotland and the rest of the UK with that of Ireland and the UK. It concludes that there could be a 5% reduction in the Scottish economy’s output if Scotland were to reduce the extent of its integration to UK-Irish levels. That effect would be seen over two or three decades, so it may only mean about 0.1% reduction in trade each year.
      The research also points out that factors resulting from independence could compensate for that fall in output. The Scottish government has set out plans for growing the Scottish economy more strongly than the rest of the UK.
      Or there might be a boost to trade with the rest of the world. The same ESRC research points to evidence that trade between Scotland and the world beyond Britain has been constrained by such a close integration into the UK, and it suggests there could be compensatory growth there.

    257. Thepnr says:


      Honestly i’m not here just to disagree with any assertion you make but you are very tiring. I’m an optimist your a pessimist or at least that is how it looks from here.

      I have a soft spot for any Tory that is willing to come over to the Yes side and vote for Independence, what is so wrong with that?

      That’s where we differ Rock, I hold no grudges, have no bias as to what political party you support as long as you are willing to support a Yes vote.

      We will NOT lose again, try to be a bit more positive.

      Do you think Iceland beat England after their manager said at halftime “We’re fucked, only 2-1 up, it’s England we’re playing we should give up now”

      Of course not, he told them, “we’re beating these wide boys. get in there with the head down and never give in.”

      What would you rather hear? Something inspiring or something depressing? Rock I do believe you aspire that Scotland should be an Independent country. Maybe time for you to really believe it can be and stop putting obstacles formed only in your imagination in it’s way.

      Get on board and get in there with the head down. Kiss a Tory if necessary. Winning is everything, we don’t have the time to be selective and anyway you nor me decides who can and can’t support Independence.

    258. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      The udder teat, Ronnie, or the whole dairy?


    259. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      Rock has been invited, more than once, to come along to a Wings get-together, but has never shown face.

      I leave you to wonder why…

    260. heedtracker says:

      If you’re still around sensibledave or sensibleness as google spell check calls you.

      An independent Scotland could be part of the EU after Brexit without re-applying for membership if London and Edinburgh were to agree, EU officials have said.

      European Commission spokesperson Margaritis Schinas said that the Commission respected the results in Scotland of Britain’s referendum, where a majority of voters supported to remain part of the Union.

      The vote to Leave has led to calls for a second Scottish independence referendum.

    261. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Rock has been at a few WOS gigs, but they coincided with the tide being in and we couldn’t see him.

    262. Valerie says:

      On the question of when for indyref2, there is a piece by a lawyer for Yes,on Business for Scotland, setting out a hypothetical timeline.

      It suggests polling and date set for Feb.2017. Seems logical.

      Not sure enough folk will have had a belly full of the economic shit storm by Autumn, to switch to Yes.

      A rough winter after slo mo economic crash and belt tightening, should persuade that this indyref2 is about survival, and not just their own.

      I can’t see a GE being called now, and that’s in our favour, and the longer they delay A50, good for us, bad for markets and economy.

      EU attitude is going to harden. I think they will have a series of measures planned, out with anything legal, as there is nothing.

      However, there are all sorts of informal and diplomatic arrangements they can ramp up. They are definitely in GTF mode now, after 40 years of the UK acting like a brat, and Farage and his boors, for 17 of that.

      I don’t think the EU is perfect by any means, but it couldn’t hold a candle to WM for decay, corruption and paedophilia.

      This time the whole of the UK is that pigs head.

      We have one last shot at this, and if it doesn’t work, I’m seriously thinking I need out of this country, and if you knew me, you would be shocked at me saying that.

    263. Kenny says:

      I for one am glad that we seem to have got some consensus on the currency issue and will probably not go down the failed route of indyref1, which was suggest a currency union with England.

      The main problem with that was, in my mind, a much overlooked point. I believe that when Scotland leaves the UK, the rUK £ will collapse (due to economic and geopolitical reasons).

      That would lead to all sorts of problems — an independent Scottish petrocurrency (pushing upwards) somehow tied to a drowning elephant (sinking like a stone). Not to mention all the horrors of being in a monetary union in which we are the junior partner (ask Greece).

      I think everyone agrees now that we need a Scottish £. We can then look at our balance of trade to see if we want to let it shadow the rUK £.

      The euro could be an option for the future, but I would welcome Scotland, as an open European country, to allow businesses to operate in both euros, $ and £. People would pay taxes in Scottish pounds.

      Scotcoin and other digital currencies should be pursued as well, so we can reclaim our innovative past. And what about putting the national accounts on a blockchain?

      I also think an alternative name, like the Merk or even the Scot, might be better as a way of drawing attention to ourselves. The Scottish pound reminds me a bit of the “Irish pound” or “Egyptian pound”…. to many imperialist overtones.

      The currency issue was a problem in indyref1. It has still not been solved, but I think we have put to bed the idea of any currency union with England.

      My only question is: what’s Mark Carney’s Plan B?

    264. Smallaxe says:

      Party Time
      Big Smiles
      Brass Bands
      Kissing Babies
      Shaking Hands
      All the fun of a Pantomime
      It’s pick your
      Tory Leader time!

    265. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 30 June, 2016 at 8:16 pm:

      ” … “If the Scots hurry, become independent before the separation process between London and the Union ends and declare be bound by the Community acquis, they could stay in the EU without difficulty by taking the status of the UK.”

      All true, Heedtracker, but what the likes of sensibledave and Rock fail to grasp, in spite of the proofs being extensively explained to them, is the simple legal facts that the United Kingdom is not a country and it is a bi-partite union of kingdoms.

      It follows, that as there were only two British Kingdoms in 1706/7, that if the pair split up, there cannot be either a united kingdom nor an rUnited Kingdom. Another way to look at the second statement is that if their was an rUK it could be either former partner who was the remainder.

      This, though, is now laughable as NI has also voted to remain in the EU and makes the case for Scotland being the rUK much stronger. There is absolutely nothing to say that the UK parliament has legal sovereignty over Scotland.

      The view on that is clear – the people of the Kingdom of England are all members of a Constitutional Monarchy, ergo they are subjects of the Monarch of the Kingdom of England and the Westminster MPs they elect exercise the Royal person’s sovereignty as her delegates.

      Not so in Scotland as the people are legally sovereign and that makes the Queen of Scots the subject of the sovereign people of Scotland and our elected parliamentarians exercise our sovereignty in the Westminster parliament but we have never delegated our sovereign powers to other than our elected representatives.

      If we give them a mandate then they must do as we bid them. Sensible & Rock just believe that Westminster will continue as the UK after the union splits up and that Westminster has sovereignty over Scotland.

      I’m glad to say that, in spite of claims to the contrary, The Kingdom of Scotland was not extinguished by the Treaty of Union and the Kingdom of England was not renamed as the United Kingdom.

      The Treaty of Union remains a two party union and ends if either party decides it has to end. Now answer me this – have you ever seen any documentary legal proofs that the United Kingdom is other than a two party kingdom between two equally sovereign partners?

    266. Tinto Chiel says:

      “This time the whole of the UK is that pigs head.”

      Don’t worry, Valerie, Faulkner may not have been a very elegant writer, but the Beast will soon be dead, as far as we are concerned.

      The Dark Star crumbles and, as they say, Nicki is “on it”.

      “Bliss were it in that dawn to be alive.”

    267. Breeks says:

      Guys we all have aspirations and frustrations,,and there are times when patience is required.
      I don’t mean to inflame things, but I think Rock has a point. The longer this goes on, the longer the BBC and the media has to drag us down and hog the agenda like last time.

      Where I disagree with Rock is I don’t think the answer is to move too quickly, but this time of uncertainty would be a lot more bearable if there was some evidence that the Scottish Government was no longer taking any shit from the BBC.

      The BBC is like a vampire that sucks the life force from YES positivity. It’s very good at it. I don’t know to what extent the EU recognises the BBC factor, perhaps not very well. If it did understand the risks and propaganda we face on a daily basis, then hopefully this period of uncertainty will pass quickly.

      Ironically, it could be that the delayed trigger of article 50 which is slowing us all down. The EU has done its best to rush it along.

      On the up side, I don’t think Scotland’s standing in Europe is a flash in the pan. If we can keep the momentum going here, the EU will take us when we’re ready.

      Its the BBC and the media which will test our resolve… again.

    268. Rock says:

      Tinto Chiel,

      “Rock: do you ever attack our enemies?

      It would be nice to know.”

      Sure, what I posted just a while ago:


      “The likes of the JK Rowling, McLeish, the Daily Record are not on our side.

      They will very soon start stabbing us again.”

      I know exactly who our real enemies are.

      Unlike many gullible independence supporters posting here who get so easily duped by the slightest postering by our enemies.

      JK Rowling’s sudden apparent support of independence is completely fake.

      But how excited gullible folks here got when they heard about it.

      The very reason why Scotland has remained a colony of England for more than 300 years.

    269. Robert Peffers says:

      @Stoker says: 30 June, 2016 at 8:34 pm:

      ” I knew there was a wee wicked streak running through you Peffers.
      I might just reserve my very last copy for such an idea.

      You could be right about that, Stoker. From a fairly early age I could tell the most outrageous tales with a very convincing ring of truth about them in to wind folks up.

      How I can do so with a straight face I have never been able to fathom. Thing is there must always be a large grain of truth in what is being told.

      Just as well I’m a very honest guy by nature and could never let anyone go on believing something that was not really true.

      The family never know when I’m kidding them on – even after all those years.

    270. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “@Rock says: 30 June, 2016 at 8:06 pm:

      ” … Nicola has found out, in the unlikely event that she didn’t already know, that the EU might listen politely to her but cannot and will not deal with Scotland until and unless Scotland is out of the UK and independent.”

      Utter (unsubstaniated), pish! As usual.”

      YOU are the unchallenged master of pish on this website.

      Can you in absolutely clear terms challenge my comment above.

      Is it your view that the EU CAN and WILL deal with Scotland, as part of the UK, while the UK is negotiating Brexit with the EU?

      Don’t give me any of your usual waffle about Kingdoms.

      It is a simple question. Answer it clearly.

      Otherwise you are as much of a coward as Boris Johnson.

    271. Tinto Chiel says:

      “The likes of the JK Rowling, McLeish, the Daily Record are not on our side.”

      Trenchant aperçu, Rock, so why don’t you have a go at them instead of the folk on here?

      In your own time, of course.

    272. Valerie says:


      I never address you. I can’t be arsed.

      But what’s with insulting everyone on here now?? That JK thing is a shitty insult to everyone on here, considering no one on here supported her actions previously with regard to legal action etc. and you KNOW that.

      The point is, if folk come over to our side due to these new circs, who cares who they are? There are lots of influential folk that can make a difference to the numbers.

      Stop trying to fucking sabotage that.


    273. Thepnr says:

      Anyone, absolutely anyone who now advocates a Yes vote is on our side.

      So 55% of Scots voted No first time around, I guess we need some of them to change their mind. I’m just saying if we want to escape being a colony of England after 300 years the people need to say so.

      That cannot happen without previously No voters changing to yes supporters.

      I can’t understand why some gullible folk fail to realise this obvious truth.

    274. Rock says:

      Am I surprised at the usual suspects attacking me without actually challenging the comments I post?


      Brian Doonthetoon,

      ronnie anderson,

      Robert Peffers,

      and the rank hypocrite Ian Brotherhood,

      who wanted to dictate SNP policy while being a member of the SSP,

      who offered to guarantee my security to express my opinions, while repeatedly trying to warn me off from posing here.

      Where is Paula Rose when she is needed in the attack?

    275. Rock says:

      Sorry, Valerie, I forgot to add your name to the list.

      And Petra will be along soon.

    276. cearc says:

      I see that T. Blair is proposing that they need a serious statesman like him to negotiate Brexit! (It’s in the telegraph, couldn’t be bothered to read it).

      That will delight the EU.

    277. Rock says:

      Tinto Chiel,

      “Trenchant aperçu, Rock, so why don’t you have a go at them instead of the folk on here?

      In your own time, of course.”

      If you have been paying any attention, I am the first one to attack our real enemies.

      Unlike idiots here who are too busy debating with the likes of sensibledave and any reincarnation of Ahura Mazda.

      I don’t start the attacks on anyone.

      But as soon as I post, one or more of the usual suspects immediately attack me.

      Check the record in this very article.

    278. call me dave says:

      Treated like mugs, invited to a tv declaration/ announcement and the unsuspecting triumphant tory MPs and entourage waiting to extol their champion presumptive get slapped in the face in the last sentence… as smirking Boris wilts before their very eyes … are they happy?

      Relax with radio 5 QT (no SNP invitee) I expect recriminations.

      The eagle still hovering, no cuckoo in the nest and Corbyn snoozes

    279. Tackety Beets says:

      Ruby. @ 10.07

      I did similar posts in 2013/14 so sorry for repeating.

      I have not fully read the posts tonight , so apologise if someone has already explained.

      I’m with you Ruby , how are these figures collated ?
      We all hear all these Scotland trade with UK figures , but what do they really mean ?

      Most High St stores or for that matter industrial Estate wholesalers purchase from a major importer who may have actual stock in warehouse in Englandshire or as is more common with Global brands an Office in Englandshire and goods shipped to Scotland from a European warehouse in either Holland / Belgium . These Euro Warehouse will despatch to ALL of Europe . Centralisation.
      Hence this Brexit situation does not suit the “bigger organisations”

      Scotland ships mainly by road Food & drink south to Englandshire which is onward to Europe. Paper trail may be to English exporter ? Hence could be seen as A Scottish export to Englandshire & then classed as an Englsh Export as it leaves an English port .

      There is ,in my opinion ,only ONE way to find out the true figures.

      Get the show on the road , contribute to some of the “crowd funding” links above and vote for our Freedom in IndyRef2

    280. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rocky-baby.

      Have I not challenged some of your bladder production? Onnyhoo, you asked,

      “Is it your view that the EU CAN and WILL deal with Scotland, as part of the UK, while the UK is negotiating Brexit with the EU?”

      Whether they do or don’t, it will not be made public, because the UK is the member state. EU member states will not have public discussions with a sub-part of a member state. I think heads will be nodded and eyes will be winked – but we will never know! Protocol, young man, protocol.

    281. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Way-hay! Rock has a list! We are all honoured! Can YOU get on Rock’s list? Don’t feel bad for not being on Rock’s list – just try harder.

      Disagreeing with him/her at least once might give you a chance to be listworthy.

    282. Lenny Hartley says:

      Rock,I have met several of the people on your list and I trust them 100% to be on the side of an Indy Scotland.

      I cannot say the same about you.

    283. Tinto Chiel says:

      “But as soon as I post, one or more of the usual suspects immediately attack”

      Could you please add me to your roll of honour, then?

      Proud to be an idiot, me.

      Thank God for intellectuals and seers like yourself.

    284. Grouse Beater says:

      Breks: “I don’t mean to inflame things, but I think Rock has a point.”

      Doesn’t matter.

      What matters is like Dippy Dave he talks down to everyone, treated as nursery kids. There’s tedium in his monotone of barely suppressed homicidal fury.

      Who engages with a strange man on a street corner shouting at you, unless to respond with one-line sarcasm?

      You wonder how he manages to do his weekly shopping without getting arrested for giving abuse to hard working assistants who’ve no interest in hearing about his piles or his toothache.

    285. Rock says:


      “Anyone, absolutely anyone who now advocates a Yes vote is on our side.”


      The likes of JK Rowling, McLeish, the Daily Record will stab us again in the back when the time comes.

      If the likes of Brown, Darling, Murphy, Sarwar and McDougall now “advocate” a Yes vote, will you welcome them with open arms?

      Will you ever realise that if they do, their only reason will be to promote their own self interest in post independent Scotland.

      They are enemies of the people of Scotland and you want to turn them into heroes?

      We are on the verge of getting independence without those tractors “advocating” a Yes vote.

      Go and “embrace” any ordinary No voter you like.

      But for heaven’s sake we don’t want to present on a golden plate any credibility to those who have downtrodden us for so long.

    286. Famous15 says:

      Rock you remind me of the old joke “we need him to remind us of the effects of strong drink”

      This site is good to refer wavering “no” supporters. Not so good when a drama queen wants to go boxing with everyone.Please forgive the mixed metaphor .

      Rock could you stick your ego up that orifice you appear fixated upon.

      Love to all!

    287. heedtracker says:

      Unlike idiots here who are too busy debating with the likes of sensibledave and any reincarnation of Ahura Mazda.

      As one of those idiots, I doubt very much sensible considers it debate. Drive-by more like.

    288. Big Jock says:

      Can we fast forward 12 months. I want to see what’s over the hill. This waiting and guessing is going to kill me if it goes on all summer.

      Prof on Scotland 2016. Said that indi ref would really need to be done before next summer. That way we can stay in Eu. Otherwise we have to reapply…messy.

      So the bill has to go through by September for indi ref 2. Then ratified by October.

    289. Edward says:

      Still Positive @ 9.20pm

      Concerning WTO
      WTO Rules, what does that mean?

      I often hear politicians waffle knowingly about ‘WTO’ as if they actually know what they
      are talking about. Believe me they haven’t a clue and neither do the journalists!

      The WTO is the World Trade Organisation, who oversee on behalf of all governments the setting
      of duty rates and tariffs
      More information here:

      Currently there is three basic levels of trade
      1. Free Circulation within the EU – All goods move between each EU state without any hindrance of border controls. There is no customs what so ever. Someone can send goods from Glasgow to Dusseldorf with the same freedom and ease as sending from Glasgow
      to Goole. There is no Duty and VAT is either paid at origin or at destination

      2. Preference movements, such as shipping between EU countries and EFTA/EEA countries such as Norway, Switzerland, Iceland. All goods have to be formally cleared through customs at both origin port/airport and again at destination port/airport with local taxes, such as VAT paid on import. Duty is liable but it’s at a preferential rate, usually zero or a low percentage
      Based on commodity and on evidence of preference state (such as an endorsed invoice or EUR certification)
      Goods from other countries other than EFTA members can sometimes have preference rate of duty under the General System of Preference scheme, all of which is governed by the WTO who set up the agreements

      3. Third county status movements. All goods from outside the EU, are classifies as ‘Third country’ status and are subject to full level of applicable Duty. Goods have to be formally cleared through customs with duty and VAT paid on import, it’s this level that’s referred to as ‘WTO rules’

      Currently as mentioned with goods moving between EU states, there is no duty and the VAT is paid at origin or destination. The normal way is the VAT is paid at destination and is taken during normal VAT returns.

      Losing free circulation and being outside the EU will mean that all goods will have to be formally cleared through customs with duty and VAT having to be paid there and then on import. This will add cash flow problems for companies that have got used to just having goods delivered without the payment of anything, such as custom’s clearance charges which they will also have to pay

      Trust this clarifies

    290. liz g says:

      What an insult SNP replaced by son of Zeebadee on Question Time.

    291. Thepnr says:


      I challenged the comments you post while holding out an olive branch that you choose to ignore.

      I challenged them because they are divisive, you have now named your “enemies” those that hurt you because they disagree with your “repeated pish” (my heart bleeds).

      “If you have been paying any attention, I am the first one to attack our real enemies”


      Brian Doonthetoon,

      ronnie anderson,

      Robert Peffers,

      and the rank hypocrite Ian Brotherhood

      Rock you are your own worst enemy and no friend of Independence, just what is your agenda? I’d like to know, do you care to share?

    292. Rock says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      “you asked,”

      “Is it your view that the EU CAN and WILL deal with Scotland, as part of the UK, while the UK is negotiating Brexit with the EU?””

      I asked Robert Peffers, not one of his sycophants.

      Will he answer, without his usual waffle about kingdoms, or will he do a Boris as he usually does when challenged?

    293. Kenny says:

      I would laugh like a drain if the UKOK negotiation team (May? Tony Blair? Maybe also Broon, Darling and, of course, JK Rowling and Lady Mone) went to Brussels… and sat down opposite the other team selected from the EU nations…

      … which to their surprise included one Nicola Sturgeon (“you’ll have had your tea?”) and one laughing Alex Salmond (and one Joanna Cherry to really turn the screws on them).

      Oh, please don’t tell me this could never happen!!!

    294. Big Jock says:

      Rock let’s get indi first and not worry about being two faced. The goal is independence not revenge on the people who let us down. Smile when someone joins the club….you will feel better for it.

      If you want to see where bitter gets you look over at Scottish Labour.

    295. Valerie says:


      The fact that in two years, I have never addressed your whinging, rude and pointless posts should give you some pause, to go and have a lie down.

      You seriously look like a troll, banging on endlessly about the same pointless shit.

      You want to sneer, be smug, get us all screaming for revenge on those 55%?

      Fuck right off. Have a break, and stop working for the unionists.

    296. Col says:

      We need massive protests outside the BBC plus a few folk in every town and city who can jump in a car to wherever there is a BBC news team with a placard saying it’s all lies so they can’t film and televise their propaganda

    297. ronnie anderson says:

      Awe fer fek saky BrianDTT if I watch that Mikado vidio again I,ll Scweem n Scweem tae am sick.

    298. yesindyref2 says:

      f the likes of Brown, Darling, Murphy, Sarwar and McDougall now “advocate” a Yes vote, will you welcome them with open arms?

      Will you ever realise that if they do, their only reason will be to promote their own self interest in post independent Scotland.

      Good. I would expect that to be true in one way or another, of all YES voters. Even if it were to include the Conservative party in Scotland, even including Ruth Davidson.

      The more YES votes the better. Sonewhere near 100% would be nice.

    299. Grouse Beater says:

      From Boris Productions
      ‘BREXIT’ – a horror story

      In a Job Centre near you.

      “If you want to live – emigrate!”

      Starring Grotty Gove, Mother Theresa May, and introducing Kid Cobynite.

      Directed by David Camera.

    300. Tinto Chiel says:

      I hear the SNP speaker has been pulled for an English “comedian” on QT.

      Is Preston too close to the Scottish border, then?

      Hoping English EU-lovers can tip our balance.

      They’re be a welcome in the hillside, etc.

    301. ewen says:

      Jeezo, Rock. Put me on your feckin list and shutup.
      I am willing to hold my nose and welcome anyone who will vote for independence. After we get it we can all go off in our little tribes and shout at each other. Until then we have to work together.
      And don’t come on all superior. I’m fifty this year and was helping my parents leafleting for the SNP 45 years ago. A lot of the noob independistas may have been Labour or whatever in the past but they bloody worked hard in 2014. We wouldn’t have got so close without people who changed their minds.
      Chill a bit, Aim your anger at those who are against us.

    302. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Col Yes Smilies on the cards & dont give opinions/interviews.

    303. One_Scot says:

      For what it’s worth, with regards to this thread, I’ve seen less rock at Blackpool Pleasure Beach. Can we give it a rest now.

    304. Hamish100 says:

      Any chance of flags of EU in all languages SAYING Scotland in EU? Be good for going on hols

    305. cearc says:


      Love the placard idea!

      Unfortunately, it wouldn’t work as they would just fake it in a studio.

    306. ewen says:

      And, you got me riled and I forgot to do my paragraph breaks….

    307. Tinto Chiel says:

      “There’ll be”

      Sausage fingers.

      Apple oagies.

    308. Lochside says:

      Great read from @Edward about the history of how our infrastructure in regard to ports etc. was deliberately stunted by Westminster.

      Meanwhile Bozo skulks and sulks in his country pile, Gove girds up his loins (yuk!) to bluster his fight against Theresa May, wicked witch of the S.E. for the Tory ‘Leadership’ (shome mistake?). Whilst Labour collapse like a fading red dwarf (george foulkes).

      Meanwhile back at Shortbread Media Centre UKAYE and her usual cast of actors maquerading as Unionist /loyalist callers gripe about ‘Sturgeon ignoring democracy’ by not accepting Brexit. If these people are real, the there’s definitely too much lead in Scottish water!

      All the usual ‘experts’ appearing like ugly boils: Prof David Bell ringing out alarms about our deficit; David Torrance talking mince through his beard etc. etc. And tonight Question Time…England still speaking unto England… no SNP representation…just Carsewell of the Beeb’s fave political party UKIP and the odious hypocrite Melanie Phillips describing ‘Boris is a superstar’!…this from an anti-Scottish racist who went on U.S. tv to descibe us as ‘hating the English’ bleating about abuse of ‘Leavers’….irony?

      Breeks and Ponsonby are correct however, while England commits hari kari politically and economically..BBC Scotland is determined to continue Project Fear 2 by sowing seeds of doubt because of the alleged ‘Euro rebuff’ suffered by NS.I hope the SNP demand an explanation. Meanwhile….Let the delusion continue…This is England.

    309. Inverclyder says:

      The reason the SNP were snubbed by the BBC is that their agenda (BBC agenda) has now changed.

      QT tonight is pretty much Theresa May for PM with a big hint of we don’t like Gove. Boris getting the blame and now onto anti Corbyn chat along with a faint hint of Chilcot.

      Expecting a few laughs about the northern colonial outpost anytime soon.

    310. Big Jock says:

      Exactly Ewen. Rock aim your fire at London and Westminster. Don’t fire at home. We get knowhere without picking up new passengers.

      This is finally something the majority of Scots agree on. Don’t you see. We are rallying round a common cause. Isn’t it great that our nation voted the right way for a change.

    311. louis.b.argyll says:

      My my, we’re a’ between a rock and a hard place the nicht..

    312. crazycat says:

      @ cearc

      I see that T. Blair is proposing that they need a serious statesman like him to negotiate Brexit!

      Brussels is handy for The Hague.

    313. ronnie anderson says:

      Rite lets all sing loudly.

      Rock the aged Cleft in two
      ah Bloody TROLL
      ah true red white an blue.

      BrianDTT We made the listed list, whit a company we,re keeping I doft ma Tammy tae you,s aw good Sir’s an Doft it tae awe you,s that never made it on the list, noo as somebody said tae me some time ago ( if at 1st you dont suck seeds, yer no suckin the rite kind try harder ) BrianDTTs goat the Badges lol.

    314. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Another thread artfully spun into thin air by an invisible unaccountable mischief…

      So it goes, eh?

    315. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rock says: 30 June, 2016 at 10:44 pm:

      “Can you in absolutely clear terms challenge my comment above.”
      Yes – is that clear enough for you?

      “Is it your view that the EU CAN and WILL deal with Scotland, as part of the UK, while the UK is negotiating Brexit with the EU?”

      They already are you bloody numptie.

      “Don’t give me any of your usual waffle about Kingdoms.”

      Now why is it you always claim the truth that the term, “United Kingdom”, clearly describes a Kingdom formed from only two former equally sovereign kingdoms is untrue?

      Furthermore, there is absolutely no mention of countries in the entire document of the treaty. Why do you claim the United Kingdom is a country?

      Only fools make such daft claim and only bigger fools make such unsubstantiated claims but cannot offer a single fact to back up their claims.

      “It is a simple question. Answer it clearly.”

      I did, and not for the first time, and you still will not admit you are wrong.

      “Otherwise you are as much of a coward as Boris Johnson.”

      Nah! No one is that much of a coward. In any case nothing you care to say could bother me, Rock.

      I’ve had better folks than you try to insult me. It doesn’t work on me. You are a numptie and you prove it every time you make posts like the one I’m replying to right now. The reason you are a numptie is you do not know how to carry on a debate with reason, logic and proofs.

      You spout some pish and, if no one believes it, you throw your teddy out of the pram and start spouting insults.

      Adults debate but immature people, and inexperienced children, make unsubstantiated claims and throw tantrums when they do not get their own way.

      Can you not explain your claims in an adult fashion and enter into adult debate? I’m ready to listen to a reasoned argument and, if you had better evidence, or a better explanation of events to offer, I could be convinced I was wrong.

      So, Rock, where is your evidence and logic to prove your case? All I get from you is abuse and claims I’m wrong but nothing to show where and how I am wrong.

      There is nothing like a really good debate – and nothing you ever say is like a good debate.

    316. Capella says:

      @ Edward 2.53 – excellent point. Ruth Davidson and others will hammer on this theme from here till Independence i.e. that Scotland depends on England for trade. I think they quote £45 B with England and £11 B with EU. Completely spurious as you point out since Scottish goods are exported through English ports and are therefore counted as English.

      There is a veiled threat that England will boycott Scottish goods if we vote for independence. I believe this was the threat in 1706 re the “Aliens Act” ( Mr Peffers will have the detail).

      The Cuthberts did a forensic study of the GERS figures pre Indyref1 pointing out the glaring errors in accounting methods. Sorry I can’t find the link at the moment. I think it is in Wings Reference section somewhere.

      There are also some interesting studies by Prof Alf Baird of Napier University on private ownership of Scottish ports and mismanagement of Maritime business in Scotland by Westminster. He comments on Bella Caledonia on this issue. Here is his 2014 Scotsman article on Scottish shipbuilding:

      There is the expertise out there to lay this particular canard to rest. How do we collate this to inform the public and couteract the rubbish spouted by the Ruth Davidson Party?

    317. Brian McHugh says:

      Was out with Polish friends tonight… disappointing with regards the footy, but I now have even more determination that Scotland is not going to be weak and is not going to simply accept being dragged away against our will.

      That aint gonna happen!!!

    318. stewartb says:

      After today’s FMQs, could there be a point at which even ProudScotButs say enough is enough and reject Ruth Davidson’s view that Scotland should just meekly accept its complete powerlessness in the UK?

    319. Valerie says:

      Christ on a bike.

      I’m looking at Michael Portillo wearing a neon green shirt, and bright red trousers. Only the face paint is missing.

      My eyes are going skelly.

    320. Iain More says:

      re Exports

      I think Ingerland is in for a shock in trying to find customers for anything that it makes except perhaps Weapons etc to oppressive regimes. Ingerland spreading Global Conflict and Death where they cast their greedy beady eyes.

    321. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rock says: 30 June, 2016 at 11:10 pm

      “The likes of JK Rowling, McLeish, the Daily Record will stab us again in the back when the time comes.”

      Sheeesh! Are you really as stupid as your posts make you seem?

      Tell me this, if you are aware that these people are untrustworthy but they are, at least for the time being, ready to be on the YES side why are you not ready to allow them to remain as YES voters but always be wary of them and watch them well?

      Have you not heard the very old expression, “Keep you friends close but keep your enemies even closer”?

      Do you understand what the expression means?

    322. X_Sticks says:


      I think it is maybe Michael that is a bit skelly 😉

      On another topic.

      I was in the garden today and I had a debate with a rock. It was a very one sided conversation.

      That’s all.

    323. Smallaxe says:

      Rock,you should change your name to scissors or Mr Peffers will paper you every time:-)

    324. Valerie says:

      Sorry for the BBC link, but this is an absolute barnstormer.

      You must read it. From an actual EU Commission negotiator, and spells out even higher levels of hurty bums.

    325. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Many decades ago, my Mum took me out onto the Nethergate, to watch a BB parade march past. I’m paraphrasing slightly here but what she exclaimed, as the BB marched past, was, “Abdee’s oot o’ step ‘cept oor Rock!”

    326. gerry says:


      A little light relief. You Tube “Braveheart Version: Alyn Smith Scottish MEP in passionate plea to European Parliament”

    327. Ken500 says:

      BBC are trailing – Eagle will not stand against Corbyn

      SKY are not reporting it, but are reporting Labour PLP are meeting tomorrow to chose a candidate to stand,

    328. Gusi says:

      HMRC publishes Regional Trade Statistics which break down the values of Imports and Exports to each Country of the UK (and also to each region of England). Here is a link to the first quarter 2016 report.

      They attempt to allocate exports to where they are despatched from and not the port of export by the use of VAT registration numbers and post codes. At the end of the above report in the link is another link to the methodology used to determine where the goods came from.

    329. Greannach says:

      So, Goveser’s wife is going to be the next UK PM? Welcome to Britain. The Mother of Parliaments. The Cradle of Democracy. The Jocky Scotches must be so jealous of how a real country works.

    330. Liz g says:

      Robert P @ 12.19.
      Aye we know..
      But some don’t
      Don’t you stop now.
      And take care of you my friend X

    331. Phydaux says:

      The Unionists are not going to trigger Article 50 anytime soon.The usual suspects are playing their usual squalid games and controlling the agenda, aided and abetted by the corporate media.The BBC gets another chance at blatantly undermining Scotland.You can smell their vicarious thrill at doing so.

      The EU can suspend a Member State for infringement of its principles and rules.The breach must be ” serious and persistent “. The Member State’s right to vote and other rights are suspended accordingly.Who knows if and when this might happen and how this will affect us.

      The only way for Scotland to remain in the EU is to become independent…no ifs or buts and the sooner the better.

    332. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rock says: 30 June, 2016 at 11:15 pm:

      ” … I asked Robert Peffers, not one of his sycophants.”

      Oh! Great! I have sycophants – I didn’t know I had sycophants.

      Now let me see – the dictionary says,
      noun: sycophant; plural noun: sycophants is :- a person who acts obsequiously toward someone important in order to gain advantage.”

      Does that mean I’m important? Oh! Goody I’m important!

      Oh! Wait up it also says, “in order to gain advantage”.

      Come on you sycophant guys I want my advantages – whatever they might be.

      “Will he answer, without his usual waffle about kingdoms, or will he do a Boris as he usually does when challenged?”

      Rock! When have you actually challenged me? The reason I often ignore your idiotic questions is because you just do not know how to debate, or even explain, your own claims.

      You want people to listen to your case, whatever it is, you must not only make your case properly giving both logical argument and cites to your proofs.

      To date you have attempted to only shout me down. You have neither proven your own points nor have you offered logical argument nor have you quoted some form of proof or given someone’s expert opinions.

      So there you are – you scream down my proven points regarding the status of the United Kingdom as if it were not a Kingdom. So tell us, if it is not a Kingdom, then what is it and then prove your claims by quoting the evidence of what it is?

      I’ve attempted to put the argument several different ways for you and given you several detailed explanations and all I get for my trouble is abuse and shouted down.

      So here is a direct challenge to you, (and I won’t be childish and try to insult you by saying you are a worse coward than Boris if you are unable, or unwilling, to answer properly).

      How about you explain to me, and the forum, why you imagine that an entity we all know as, “The United Kingdom”, is anything other than, would you believe, an actual United Kingdom?

      Furthermore, as you seem to think it is actually a single country how it happens to contain another four countries and one of them is England? You see the problem do you Rock?

      If it was a single country then how can it also be four countries and a united kingdom too? What’s more how can a former two kingdom country remain a United Kingdom when one of the only two original kingdoms leaves and thus disunites the only two kingdoms?

      So there you go – make your case or awa an bile yer heid.

    333. call me dave says:

      Hark the Herald. 🙂

      Secret talks taking place to keep independent Scotland in EU, Brussels insider claims

    334. Still Positive. says:

      Greannach @ 12.49.

      Agree totally.

      But what wife sends her husband an email to communicate with him when she can do that in so many other ways?

      The mind boggles.

    335. Robert Peffers says:

      @ Capella says: 30 June, 2016 at 11:58 pm:

      ” … There is a veiled threat that England will boycott Scottish goods if we vote for independence.”

      It’s not going to happen in the real World, Capella. Here’s why. Scotland is a net exporter of food, fuel and electric power. England is a net importer of all three.

      In fact Scotland, if you include the Scottish produce that is exported vie English ports it is even greater than the ONS, (Office of National Statistics), always quotes. Then there is the entire North Sea revenues accounted as United Kingdom revenue that Scotland gets none of but there is something else that has to be taken into account.

      The National Electricity Grid charges more per kilowatt of electricity added to the grid the further away you get from London. This is, “The Grid Connection Charge”. It then gets to be an even worse rip off as they then actually subsidise the generation companies in the deep South. The proverbial Double Whammy.

      Now think about that? It is usual for the supplier of a scarce resource to get a better price from those that are short of that resource.

      Yet here we have the main customers for Scottish electricity charging extra from Scotland for the privilege of supplying the, always short of electricity, London and the South.

      Not only that but the Scottish electricity users are actually paying a little more per unit of electricity than their neighbours next door who are importing electricity from both Scotland and other EU countries.

      If Scotland stops trading with England then England would have to import much more food, fuel and power. Scotland is the only UK country that can supply her population from her own resources with food fuel and power.

      I don’t mean that Scotland doesn’t have to import, for example certain foods, but that her exports of food more than pays for what items she has to import.

      Same goes for power. We do import some power but our power exports more than pay for it. So the short answer is that if England was to apply an embargo it is England that would suffer – for the World is hungry for more than just food but also fuel and power. We won’t have too much bother getting alternative markets.

    336. Onwards says:

      Valerie says:
      1 July, 2016 at 12:34 am

      Sorry for the BBC link, but this is an absolute barnstormer.

      You must read it. From an actual EU Commission negotiator, and spells out even higher levels of hurty bums.

      Ok, if that happens, then that is terrifying for business.
      2 years and an exit before trade talks can even begin ?
      The city of London will start to haemorrhage jobs soon with that prospect. It also shows that seamless membership continuance would be very desirable for Scotland.

      One aspect of all of this is an independent Scotland trading with the rest of the UK, especially if we were using sterling, or a Scottish pound pegged to sterling. A sensible UK government would want no barriers to trade within Britain. A vindictive UK government could threaten an iScotland with tariffs.

      But any ‘uncertainty’ applies just as much to the NO side in a second referendum. Who knows how many years it will take before the UK can work out a trade deal with the EU, and all the other countries the EU has already negotiated deals with.

      Scotland would have advantages this time to compensate for any disadvantages.

    337. Petra says:

      Did anyone watch Question Time last night? Four guests and a comedian or one guest and four comedians (five if you include Dumblebum). Take your pick. The bottom line is that on being asked by members of the audience if the UK can access the EU single market and still control free movement of people the answer was yes. Still playing keepy-uppy with the big CON. The total arrogance and absolute dishonesty of these people just beggars belief for example they said that if they send the right person to the EU such as Theresa May she’ll convince them that this is in everyone’s best interest. Duh!

      Gock the Unionist. Just ignore him and he’ll go away. Then again maybe not when I mention The National which is no doubt on his big, long, make sure we lose the next Referendum, hit list too.

      Last time round we lost out due to, in the main, the currency and pension issues, the ingrained belief that Scotland is too wee, poor and stupid and imo the fact that a concerted effort was made by the corrupt media to portray Alex as a one man nincompoop band. I’m sure that Nicola is well prepared now to quash currency and pension scaremongering lies, say in future debates, and has ensured that she’s seen to be surrounded by knowledgeable people / mentions experts / meets with heads of states and so on. So is not seen to be a one (wo) man band. Far from it.

      We’re left of course with the too poor etc myth. Stu has done his UTMOST to combat this fallacy by producing his ‘books’ and running this site however we’re still not reaching many, too many, no voters. Like everyone else on here I rack my brains constantly trying to come up with a solution to deal with this major drawback.

      Last week I read of a man who paid to put a full page protest article in the Metro which seemed to lead to the desired result for him. Well I thought about this and reckoned that the Metro wouldn’t reach the type or numbers of people we’re keen to convert and all other ‘Scottish’ newspapers would give us short shrift. Then I thought about the National and reckoned that if they started putting the right type of information on their front page it could really help our cause such as a list of Scotlands assets, stolen seas, McCrone Report, depopulation of Scotland, Cameron’s admission of the value of our oil … 5 million people versus 60 million, access to west coast oil being blocked by nuclear subs etc, etc. The list is endless in fact as we well know.

      Well what I’m really saying here is that I think we should all get behind the National: Buy it or subscribe online, contact all shops and stores that don’t currently sell it and make suggestions to the editor in relation to front page news. It won’t matter if no voters don’t actually buy it (great if they would) as it would still be getting the message across.

      I know I’ll be hit with “who’s to say the editor will listen to us?” Gock of course will go dokey. It’s just a suggestion. Worth a try?

    338. Iain More says:

      re Exports

      Of course if Ingerland decides to boycott Scottish goods what will the they do for Gin since most of it gets made in ahem Scotland. I think the NIMBYs will have a hard time of it in the dark without Scottish Lecky and Scottish made Gin.

      Would Gin make a good alternative source of fuel? One for the Chemistry buffs that one!

    339. Valerie says:


      Sky news – Standard and Poor just downgraded the EU bloc from AA+ to AA, still as ‘stable’ due to Brexit vote, as it affects economic and political cohesion.

      Feel the love, you Tory destroyer of worlds!

      Can you imagine even going on holiday over there just now??

    340. yesindyref2 says:

      Just noticed on the BBC that Slovakia has assumed the rotating presidency of the EU Council of Ministers – July 1st. So Tusk really didn’t have long to go.

      Slovak Prime Minister Robert Fico has suggested holding an informal summit in the capital, Bratislava, in September, to give leaders of the remaining EU countries a chance to consider the future of the union.

      According to the paper, Mr Lajcak believes that Slovakia’s experience in handling a “divorce” – it became an independent state in 1993 after having been part of Czechoslovakia – might now stand it in good stead.

      Puts a new complexion on Slovakia’s support for Sturgeon, as reported in the “setback” story: “ .. with only Slovakia emerging as a surprise potential ally

      What’s interesting too is that Slovakia and the Czech Republic shared a currency for only a few months before it fell apart. But Slovakia is doing very nicely in economy terms. Its credit rating has risen farily steadily (an up and down) to A+ from BB / BBB. As you’d expect the Czech Republic is a little higher at around AA- stable.

    341. Petra says:

      Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! My husband has just informed me that I should change the word ‘Gock’ to ‘Gawk’. Well I, sincerely, had no idea that’s ‘what’ that word meant. You learn something new everyday, as they would say. Apologies to all, especially the ladies, on here.

    342. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting, according to her “First you exit then you negotiate”. Not according to the Lisbon Treat Article 50:

      “2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament. “

      Interestingly note the “qualified majority”, rather than unanimous. Anyway, that’s not the point. Article 218:

      1. Without prejudice to the specific provisions laid down in Article 207, agreements between the Union and third countries or international organisations shall be negotiated and concluded in accordance with the following procedure.

      2. The Council shall authorise the opening of negotiations, adopt negotiating directives, authorise the signing of agreements and conclude them.

      and other stuff

      As far as I can see, while the UK will at that point of invoking Article 50 be considered a “third country”, it will still be in the EU until its withdrawal. That’s the whole point of a 2 year allowance – “stay of execution” as it were.

      I think the UK is getting punished via the lack of “competence” of its BBC 🙂

    343. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, expected, but not likely to endear the UK to the EU. And neither by the way, was the BBC with its repeated misrepresentation of what various EU people said while being interviewed during Indy Ref 1, including Barroso, Van Rompuy – and Lucinda Creighton of Ireland.

      With any luck there’ll be a bit of help discrediting the BBC at last.

    344. yesindyref2 says:

      I should have made it clear, I wasn’t challenging what she said, I was challenging the interpretation the moronic BBC has put on it with its highly paid presenters and lack of researchers. Yes, first the UK invokes the A50, then it negotiates. It can also be given an extension after 2 years, if the EU agrees. The possibility of WTO rules is remote.

      But we do indeed need out before then.

    345. yesindyref2 says:

      Indy Ref 2 gets even earlier perhaps (from the National and Herald):

      “SCOTLAND needs to hold a second independence referendum by the summer of 2017 if it wants to remain in the EU, a former senior adviser to the European Commission has warned MSPs”

      I’ll shut up now.

    346. Dr Jim says:

      The SNP could produce a thousand experts to confirm a thing the Yoons will produce one newsreader who contrdicts it and BOOM everyone in Yoodom will swear the TV guy is right

      That’s the world of Yoondom as inhabited by the purposely and deliberately bewildered because it suits them to be that way

      Yoon world is like a religion, indoctrinated, worshipped and sucked up to all at the one time

      Come Yoons and suckle at the great breast of the land thy god England

    347. Macart says:

      Just a thought, but looking over the bulk of the past couple of threads, it strikes me that the EU issue is in real danger of taking too much of a centre stage.

      IMO it shouldn’t take over as the central pillar of any prospective referendum. Its a trigger, a change in material circumstance and yet another proof of Westminster’s failure to deliver on its pledges as a state construct. What it is not is THE reason to become an independent nation state. Those reasons (and they are multiple) have not changed from indyref 1.

      My worry is that if you give HMG and their media one issue to campaign upon, they’ll focus ALL their considerable resources on attacking that issue. This should not be a rerun of the EU campaign, but a rerun of indyref 1 with new information which informs the population of the utter failure to deliver by one side of that campaign.

      IMO this should be about a catastrophic FAILURE TO DELIVER on promises made to the Scottish electorate in a mandated and binding plebiscite. A failure which endangers our democracy, our well being and our human rights.

      Worth thinking about.

    348. scotspine says:

      SNP has put out out a survey about Europe, the previous Indy red and a future one and linked it to Facebook and Twitter. Make sure it’s spread far and wide throughout Scotland folks. It will help form strategy.

    349. Undeadshaun says:


      You need. To get with the program is your goal independence for Scotland, which means welcoming former no voters to the yes fold, as arithmetic dictates to win we need them. And everyone is allowed to make a mistake.

      Or would you rather we are drive away any new yes voters who were no voters last time.

      That is not how you demonstrate that our vision for Scotland as an inclusive one for all residents in Scotland and is surely how we would lose indyref2.

      I’m glad your NOT one of Nicolas advisors on this!

    350. Ken500 says:

      Scotland needs out as soon as possible before the contagion spreads from the England/Wales OUT decision. Damage limitation. The longer this carry on it goes on. The longer the UK economy will be damaged. Scotland needs out of the UK Union as quickly as possible becfore it is caught in the contagion and damage that will be done to the UK England /Wales economy. It will be devastated as soon as article 50 is presented.

      Scotland needs the protection of the EU to counter the turbulation. The EU has said it will listen to the democratic wishes and support the decision of the people in Scotland and it will.

      As soon as England/Wales cast a drift. The EU/world world economy will be at risk of contamination. The Tories have committed vast fraud on an industrial scale, that will devastate the economy. Scotland needs to take the decisions to protect the Scottish economy. After a decision it did it want, make or take. The SNP Gov has done everything within its powers, for the Scotttish economy/society and to protect the vulnerable. Westminster incompetents (Tory/Unionists) are wrecking it. Doing all they can to devastate the UK economy. Sanctioning vulnerable people and starving them.

      The (SNP) Scottish must make the decisions to protect Scotland. Westminster (Unionists) doesn’t not care.

      Gove shafted Johnston? Par for the course. What a bunch of absolute crooks and liars. Could it get any worse? Westminster at it’s worst. A total bunch of shysters.

      The Trade Unions (finders) and the majority of the members support Corbyn. Any dissenter who stands against him will not win. They will be finished. They will go but he will stay. He was winning for them in England. Labour are finished in Scotland. So are the Tories and the LibDem/Greens/Unionists. They make a mockery of democracy.

      Scotland must be Independent within the EU (shelter) as soon as possible. The contamination from Westminster will continue to grow as soon as Article 50 is triggered the the total wreckage will start. It is vital to the Scottish economy and people Scotland is detached from it. It has been destroying the Scottish economy/society for years.

    351. solarflare says:

      Hello, long time reader, first time writer and all that.

      Anyway, surely one of the advantages we’re going to have over the next few months is that many of the arguments politicians will be making about why Scotland shouldn’t leave the UK will be exactly analogous to arguments they’re forwarding about the UK leaving the EU. So it shouldn’t exactly be difficult to pull them up on their hypocrisy…

      It’s early days yet but the impressive response from the Scottish Government and Nicola Sturgeon, coupled with many of the comments we’ve seen here about the EU beginning to get into the mindset of accepting indy Scotland, seems promising.

      My main worry though currently is an intransigent Westminster refusing to agree to another independence referendum and thereby trying to reduce the legitimacy of our position with other EU leaders.

    352. Breeks says:

      @Valerie at 12:34am

      The implications of that are indeed profound.

      If the EU cannot negotiate individual trade deals with a member state, then no trade deals for the UK can begin negotiation until the UK is a non member. It isn’t triggering Article 50 which starts trade deal negotiations. It’s the moment of formal exit.

      Triggering Article 50 only triggers exiting negotiations.

      My interpretation of that is 2 years of Article 50 status before trade negotiations can begin, and the UK will be trading under WTO terms before lengthy, probably 2 year plus, trade negotiations even begin.

      If you have a business which relies on Europe, I hope you have some other source of income for four or five years and extraordinarily loyal customers.

      Although, to be balanced, Article 50 period is still a member status, but hardly an atmosphere for stable trade.

      I wonder whether the UK as a member is thus free to discuss trade relations with EFTA, since that would be a member state making its own trade deals, which would appear to fall foul of the same legislation. Does that mean if rUK negotiates with EFTA its in breach of EU law, and could get the straight boot?

      Who would want to be in England’s shoes? Oh shit. We are. Referendum please…. Quickly now. Can we jump before we’re pulled?

    353. Effijy says:

      Battle of the Somme is camouflaged to make the story about the Bravery of the British, especially by the propaganda channel EBC.

      The reality was that young lives and families were needlessly destroyed, their bodies used to try and soak up
      the endless supply of German bullets.

      Public School Boys kept well back from the front line simply threw lives away assured that God must deliver a victory for them as after all, they were British.

      Although Scotland’s population is less than a tenth of the UK’s, over 25% of the casualties were Scottish.

      Although the term, British Army is always used, the English have Always used foreigners like the Scots to
      sacrifice themselves and absorb the worst of the action before Johnny English marches on.

      Every one of the Scottish Regiments were at the Somme.
      Canadians, Australians, Irish, all thrown into hell along with a few from up North.

      Can’t see anyone of the regiments from the UK’s largest City around.

      I can see Prince Phillip on TV with a Chest packed with medals. Now to be fair, he did serve on a Navy Ship, but it is just so stupidly insulting to suggest he won, what 20 medals or so for bravery?

      He must have awards for being Betty’s Husband, best dressed in military action, tallest man on board, fastest 100 meters breast stroke.

      As with all UK elite, mutton is dressed up as lamb to make them look superior to those that really matter in life, and death.

      The Battle of the Somme has been described as the graveyard of the various local battalions that had been raised across Scotland.

      On the Somme, the 16th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry (the Boys’ Brigade Battalion) suffered more than 500 casualties.

      McCrae’s (Hearts) Battalion of the Royal Scots suffered 75 per cent casualties.

    354. Ken500 says:

      In Scotland there will be less opposition (non) against another Indy Ref2. There will be no major opposition to fight to leave the EU. The huge majority want to stay in the EU (as opposed to the people who wanted to stay in the UK. Where will the lies come from? Totally discredited unelected 2nd rate Unionists. When the huge majority of people in Scotland – Civic society, banks, industrialists, workers trade Unions want Scotland to stay in the EU, (more) benefits and less costs than UK membership. Many NO’s have turned to YES because of this (Tory) EU Referendum decision. Crass decision,

      The EU Referendum results and the fall out gives absolute changes to any opposition. All the previous opposition want Scotland to stay in the EU. Even the majority in the Weetminster Gov and the majority in the UK,who wanted to stay in the EU. Little cost and major benefits, A bonus for world peace and stability. That is why Scotland must stay in, It helps the British economy.

      Indy Ref2 will be a totally different proposition and it will win. It has to for the sake of the British/ world economy. Less disruption and instability. All the major players want Scotland (UK) in the EU for prosperity and stability. The details have to be worked out but that is just a formality. It has to be soon. As soon as possible.

      MSM can spin all they like. No one believes them and they are useless. Same as Westminster politicians. No one believes most of them and they are just useless. Always have been and always will be. It goes with the territory. Who would join a Unionist Party if they cared about Scotland? Very few. That is why the pool of candidates is so dire, They just care about themselves. Useless liars.

    355. Ken500 says:

      The Britsh/European Royals decisions caused the 1WW. The only thing the Royals should be doing is apologising for what their relatives did. It is a wonder they survived. All the Millions of deaths were a result of rivalries within the European/British inbred Royal families and their supposed ‘divine right to rule’ (German) Queen Victoria’s grandson’s, caused devastation all over Europe. Royal cousins married cousins. Their parents were cousins. The Czar, the Kaiser and the King and their wives. Their decisions caused the carnage of the 1WW.

      The Royals should be apologising not commemorating. A complete misrepresentation of the role of the Royal families of Britain/Europe, the decisions they made and the privilege they held. A misrepresentation of history and the power of the British State to massacre innocent people. ‘For King and country’. The ‘divine right to rule’. No universal suffrage.

      The equivalent of the EU Referendum vote. A Royal cousin (Cameron) causes devastation.

    356. Dorothy Devine says:

      Petra , did you no mean “gowk”?

      an awkward or foolish person (often used as a general term of abuse).

      synonyms: idiot · ass · halfwit · nincompoop · blockhead · buffoon ·

      2.a cuckoo.”

    357. carjamtic says:

      In the workplace most jobs,tasks come with associated risks,wisely to mitigate these risks,control measures are put in place,safety must always come first.

      We do not accept that it’s okay for people to put themselves or others in the ‘line of fire’ without at least reducing any risk.

      I will vote YES in Indyref2,simply because a no vote is too risky,I have a duty to recognise the risks associated with remaining as part of the U.K and not put myself or others at risk.

      I have a responsibility to myself,my familly,my friends,in this instance it is an easy decision,the control measure to keep everyone safe,is IMO to remove the risk,to leave the UK,leave it to those who choose to be risk takers,the gamblers,I wish them luck,to anyone else who like me believes that safety comes first,simply vote YES.

    358. starlaw says:

      Nuff said about the Somme disaster, as an eighteen yearold I worked beside a seventyfive year old artillery man who was there. He spoke of survivors grey men in grey uniforms making their way to the rear. and a senior officer on horseback ordering junior officers to place them on report for being dirty.
      When the unknown soldier was being brought to London the King was forced against his will to meet the cortege. The Royals at that time could not care less.

    359. Ruby says:

      Valerie says:
      1 July, 2016 at 2:09 am

      Can you imagine even going on holiday over there just now??

      Ruby replies

      I’ve just read in The National that an SNP member has designed a Euro Tartan.

      I would suggest that anyone going on holiday get themselves a Euro Tartan bikini a Euro Tartan Sarong and perhaps even some Euro Tartan flip-flops.

      Stu might consider making some Euro Flag beach towels & creating a Wee Euro Tartan phrase book which would include how to say I am Scottish in in every EU language.

    360. Ken500 says:

      More people in Scotland joined the Army in Scotland (pro rata) because of Scotland’s (then), higher unemployment levels because of Westminster centralist economy policies and lies. 15% of the Army/Forces are from Scotland. Pop 1/12 th of the UK. With more elderly? (as a percentage).

      Scotland pays approx £4Billion a year for the UK Defence bill. A higher proportion (pro rata) than the rest of the UK. Trident/illegal wars – £Billions are being spent while vulnerable people are being sanction, starved and killed by Westminster policies. Disgraceful. The Middle East has been left devastated because of Westminster foreign policies.

      William McIlvanney’s – ‘Docherty’. Excellent reading. Along with all his writing.

    361. Ken500 says:

      ‘When will they ever learn?’

    362. Ruby says:

      I reckon this single UK market is going to be a big issue in IndyRef2. They are going to make out as if all trade with the RUK will cease and millions of jobs will be lost.

      I though this was an interesting article

      It states there might be a reduction in trade of 0.1% each year but points out that factors resulting from independence could compensate for that fall ie increase in trade Or there might be a boost to trade with the rest of the world.

      The same ESRC research points to evidence that trade between Scotland and the world beyond Britain has been constrained by such a close integration into the UK, and it suggests there could be compensatory growth there.

    363. Ruby says:

      What about the shipbuilding argument do you think that will be a feature of the IndyRef2 ‘Better Together’ campaign?


      Having had the dress rehersal in 2014 we should be more prepared for the 2017 live show.

    364. Tam Jardine says:

      The timing of Article 50 being invoked is for the UK PM to decide but as soon as that happens the UK is no longer in control.

      I suppose we are seeing the disintegration of the political class down south because they sense what is coming down the line.

      The idea the UK, having tried unsuccessfully to hamper free movement whilst a member is now going to get the setup it wants is dangerously deluded.

      2 main points I’d like to stress.

      1. The trade figures need challenged before they become a BBCism (a spurious figure dropped in by every journalist endlessly until it becomes a ‘fact’). We should be dropping in the potential market 450 million against the England,Wales and NI figure 60 million. And stressing the strength of exports.

      2. Along with the battle to convince in the next indy ref we have the battle to neutralise the BBC as a political force. They are out of the blocks almost as fast as Nicola and they are pumping their sewerage into everyone’s homes 24 7 now.

      We cannot allow them to have the same influence. At a time when English MPs are otherwise preoccupied the job of opposing Scottish indy (and our wellbeing) falls to the state broadcaster.

      When is the Ponsonby film coming out?

    365. Artyhetty says:

      A week of crap from westmonster, seems more like a month of dark comedy, but impacting negatively on peoples lives already. What an utter circus of clowns that we are dealing with, criminals really, with no end in sight.

      One consolation, hearing from sons friend that her no voting family and friends, ‘even the tory ones’ are all yes now. Hope it’s not too late. We need indy ref#2 within the year, even the well off yoons are wanting out of this disgraceful UKok. By next year they might change their minds but of course it all depends on how they are personally affected by englexit.

    366. Nana says:

      Fat fingers spoilt my last post, should read Murdoch bought several Irish radio stations.

      and as for controlling a puppet

    367. Ruby says:



      Unemployment in Scotland a price worth paying for army recruits?

      The immigration points system for people wishing to join the RUK Army should be interesting.

      I wonder if there will be complaints in future about there being too many foreigners in the Army?

      These army boys were up early this morning marching through the streets of Edinburgh playing their bagpipes at 7am. I think they were having a dress rehersal for tomorrows big event.

    368. Smallaxe says:

      The Somme, My Grandfather was shot in the legs at the Somme,
      when healed he was sent back and was shot again at Ypres and also gassed,fortunately he survived and lived until 1967.When
      he was demobbed he was refused any help from the Haig fund!

      Also at Dunkirk don’t forget that when British and French were
      taken off the beaches the 51st Highlanders were left to cover
      their backs many were killed and hundreds spent the next five
      years as POWs. REMEMBER them All! Peace.

    369. call me dave says:

      Heseltine accuses… Geez! he was the Boris of his day, but still.

      Auntie on shortbread radio finally spits out the truth (which we all knew here) the WM UK government will only be able to start negotiations AFTER they leave the EU.

      Some folk darn Sarf haven’t heard the penny drop yet especially the QT panel and most of the audience last night.

      Join the club… were trying to do something about it.

      I like this tribute, looks good I think but some are not happy.

      Anger from Florence Nightingale fans as statue unveiled to Crimean War ‘nursing pioneer’ Mary Seacole

      “sold alcohol to soldiers slur”… least said soonest mended 🙁

    370. Breeks says:

      From Valerie’s article:

      “Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner’s insistence that the UK must first leave.

      It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU.”

      That is said in the context of the UK negotiating trade deals with the EU, but surely if its against the law for a member to negotiate its own deal with outsiders, isn’t that exactly what the UK will be desperate to do with EFTA?

      What are the consequences? If the UK breaks EU law, can they be summarily kicked out? Because if so, we wouldn’t have much time for any referendum to cut ourselves loose.

      Can somebody please check?

      Article 50 is Hobson’s choice for the UK, there aren’t any good options, and it seems the UK isn’t reading its mail anyway.

      Strikes me this gives the EU a quick release button to truncate the Article 50 timetable from 2 years right down to the moment you break EU Law.

      That ironically could help the rUK set about new trade negotiations much faster, the EU has its troubles packed up in its old kit bag, and it’s us here in Scotland who are left handcuffed to the serial base jumper, where we don’t to be, and not to the building where we do.

    371. Brian Powell says:


      The MOD is looking to reduce the Black Watch to 200, so it would effectively be a paper regiment. So unemployment is coming anyway.

    372. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT but the trail for Watching the Hawks on RT is superb and hopefully a self fulfilling prophecy!

    373. Greannach says:

      Slovakia takes over the EU presidency today. Ludicrous. There are only 5 million of them in a country barely 2/3 the size of England. Someone needs to tell them they are too wee, too poor and too stupid. Leave it to the big boys with broad shoulders and clout, like Germany, France, Malta and Cyprus (south).

    374. louis.b.argyll says:

      Been looking at Scotlands’ produce and exports…

      Been looking at our nations reputation for excellence…

      I now see these as our future.

      High quality exports. Keeping our brightest people HERE.

      Well informed progressive democracy leads to increased productivity.

      ‘WORK! As though living in the early days of a better nation’
      (A Gray)

    375. solarflare at 7.11

      Welcome. I understand your concern but in reality the UK Government can’t prevent us having as many referendums as we want.The UN Charter unambiguously gives us that right.

      The UK Government can of course be obstinate and obstructive and try to pull of all kinds of legal impediments.
      But it is not any more in their interest than it is in ours.
      I know (and they know) the reaction and the result they will get from Scotland if they try to stop us.

      Referendums, of course are not the only legitimate way to get to independence. Many have reached there by a Parliamentary vote. Others have fought general elections on a manifesto single commitment to assume independence on achieving a majority of the vote on that.

      Watch this space, as they say

    376. Ken500 says:

      It is RU menbership which guarantees another IndyRef2. Westminster cannot stop it as long as the UK remains a member of the EU. If/when England/Wales leave. they can’t stop it then because they gave broken the UK Union by breaking EU rules.

      EU membership gives Scotland the (legal) status to have another IndyRef2. It is guaranteed under EU Law which Westminster must honour as long as England is a member of the EU. That is why the Indy2 has to be undertaken as soon as possible. The EU will protect Scotland’s right to have any Referedum. It is under Scottish/UK/EU International Law that that the Scottish people are ‘sovereign’ that can have any Teferedum they want under the Scottish political system as long as they vote for it by a majority. Or for a Party by a majority that puts the circumstances of a vote in a manifesto, which is them voted for by a majority.

      InfyRef1 was guaranteed under EU Law – Scottish Law – the Scottish people are sovereign. The Act of Union settlement. 1707. That is why Cameron (Westminster) had to agree to an Independence Ref. Cameron could not legallyt refuse, Neither can any other Westminster politician. To refuse is to break the Law and the ministerial code. Westminster breaks the Law and the Ministerial Code and tries to keep it secret frequently.

      The fact that Scotland was made promises that were totally reneged by Unionists is also a consideration. All the VOW participates are now not in position of government. The Westminster (Unionist) Parliament made false promise and must still be held to account. The liars will be held to account. The MSM liars will be held to account. No one believes them any more. Non Dom tax evading owners. They should be brought to book and punished. Fined or jailed. Leveson.

    377. galamcennalath says:

      Macart says:


      “This should not be a rerun of the EU campaign, but a rerun of indyref 1 with new information which informs the population of the utter failure to deliver by one side of that campaign.”

      I agree completely. The Brexit fiasco should be seen as the straw breaking the camel’s back. It should be added to the very substantial failures to deliver which have added up, beginning with EVEL & SmithLite.

      However, really importantly, the campaign must again be primarily positive and forward looking.

      The failures should be used only as an explanation of the why it is happening. Also, why WM can’t be trusted and doesn’t have Scotland’s interests foremost.

      We must not get bogged down in a negative campaign.

    378. Famous15 says:

      Concerted efforts by callers to Radio Scotland to insult and ridicule our First Minister.

      Obviously the Tories have a plan to win by slicked smears and now they have a Joan of Arc in Theresa May you want to listen to HER virtues.

      Stooping to the Tory level let me just say I prefer Cruella de Ville to “warm,cudly” Theresa May!

    379. Grouse Beater says:

      Well, now we know what we get as a result of Boris’s ambitions:

      Instead of “faceless bureaucrats” allegedly ruling us we now have Paul Dacre and Rupert Murdoch, the men who chose Gove over Boris, both unaccountable newspaper men shaping the world as they would wish it to pay them.

      The only way to stop those immigrants is to close the border, in Scotland’s case that means reinstating self-governance.

      One more for the List:

    380. Macart says:


      Great morning links as usual Nana. The Salon piece is a well reasoned standout. Another interesting piece here on the possibilities and timings:

    381. Edward says:

      Gusi @ 12.43am
      I already know about that Regional Trade Statistics
      Trying to extrapolate information based on VAT registration numbers is actually flawed
      For example Diageo, who are the biggest Whisky producer is registered in London

      Interesting that they classify Scotland as a region, not a country

      The first table shows that the South East has the most exports, which is fascinating as they is no large scale manufacturing, there is however Heathrow & Gatwick airports as well as the ports of Tilbury, London Gateway, Southampton, as well as the channel ports of Dover and Folkstone.

      I also note that there is a region called ‘Unknown’ that has more exports than Scotland, Wales, N Ireland, East Midlands, West Midlands etc

      Looking at the Import table, once again the South East of England has a huge amount of imports, far more than you would expect.

      The notes at the end do explain a bit
      Note 7 “Because the trade is regionalised according to the location of the VAT registered business some of the trade may be allocated to the region where the head office of the business is allocated.”

      Note 8 “In 2009 the introduction of the Economic Operator Registration and Identification (EORI)….the EORI number replaced the VAT registration number and branch ID supplied on trade
      Data….under EORI the vast majority of businesses are not allowed to retain branch ID’s… with majority of trade being declared to the head office in a single region….”

      Note 9 Not all trade can be assigned to one of the 9 English Regions, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Where appropriate, this is referred to in the tables as the ‘Unknown region’ and includes:
      a.Natural Gas and Electricity, Information on Petroleum production from DECC
      b Trade carried out by persons or entities which cannot be matched to a region

      I would conclude that the figures do not accurately reflect the amount of trade that Scotland has with the rest of the World or the EU

    382. Ken500 says:

      The EU and (European) banks invest £Billions into Scotland, which Scotland would lose leaving the EU. £Billions+ more. In renewables, farming, fishing, all industry, trade and tourism. Nearest biggest market. Worth £Billions.

      All Westminster has ever done is taken £Billions out of Scotland.

    383. Luigi says:

      Judging by the remarks of ‘neutral’ experts and many ‘random’ callers on Radio Scotland, there is absolutely no point in holding another indy ref. Poor Nicola is wasting her time. The doom and gloom merchants are just dramatizing, everything will be fine and hunky dory after the dust settles. We are all Brits, after all. We will get through this. There is just no support out there in the country for independence.

      Get back in the box, Scotland!

    384. Ken500 says:

      Stop listening to Radio Scotland. It is nonsense. It will lead to these programmes demise. No listeners no biased programmes.

    385. Grouse Beater says:

      High quality exports. Keeping our brightest people HERE.”

      And in the same regard, independence brings home our best politicians to serve their own country better.

      Are you local?

    386. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 1 July, 2016 at 6:50 am:

      … It has been destroying the Scottish economy/society for years.

      A London based, South Britain elite has actually been destroying, or attempting to destroy, the Scottish economy for millennia, Ken.

      Think about it – why were the Gask Road and Gask Ridge forts built by the Romans?

      Why build they build the Antonine wall?
      Why did they then build Hadrian’s wall?

      What of this little bit of Scottish history?

      In 832 AD. on the night before the Pictish King Angus II, leading his forces into battle against the English King Aethelstans’ army of Angles and Saxons, King Angus had a vision, or perhaps a dream.

      In this dream, he saw St. Andrew and was promised by him to triumph in the battle.

      In his dream he saw the St Andrew’s cross, (the Saltire), and upon awakening there was seen, by his troops, a white cross of clouds against the blue of the sky. The Saltire was adopted as the Scottish flag

      The saltire is thus among the very oldest national flags of the World. The Rampant Lion came much later and is NOT the Scottish National flag, it is the Scottish Monarchy’s Royal Standard. If you tend to be a republican you would not be inclined to fly the rampant lion standard.

    387. Grouse Beater says:

      This stays on the board until I get an answer from the GSA’s governors:

    388. Macart says:


      Couldn’t agree more and posted as much on WGD earlier. Pretty much same post as here, but I’d added exactly the same sentiments you’ve just expressed.

      The YES campaign’s positivity and drive did much that was right last time round. It’s why we took twenty points out of a thirty point lead and that was without the aid of big government and against ALL of the media.

      Brexit is a game changer on so many levels, not least in the attitudes of big business and sections of the media world.

      What we have today is a fuller, more informed image of the UK state’s willingness to deliver on its pledges to an electorate. What we also have is a more informed view of what the future holds for our society and economy under this model of government.

      The question, as always, comes back to – What ‘kind’ of country do you want to live in?

    389. robertknight says:

      Thatcher’s legacy alive and kicking in the form of ‘Maggie May’ – just what Nanny ordered for all those whinging Jocks who need to pipe down and take their medicine.

      Mother England knows what’s best for you, so do as you’re jolly well told!

    390. Breeks says:


      I agree, but the problem is Unionist negative twaddle isn’t allowed to fizzle out and die, it is merely a smouldering ember which amounts to nothing until the BBC and mainstream Press provide it with a steady supply of oxygen.

      Until this sinister media has been tamed, we can be certain of nothing.

      I too want to win Independence on a tidal wave of positive and progressive momentum, but I fear getting there requires a short and brutal bare knuckle fight with the BBC which we may not have to win, but must hold our ground.

      Its not the best analogy, but in the spirit of walking soft but carrying a big stick, we can be as positive as we like once we have taught the BBC to butt out.

    391. Big Jock says:

      Anyone who thinks the UK would not authorise a referendum ,I wouldn’t worry about that. Firstly refusing something to a nation hardens their resolve and increases the support for the thing you try and prevent.WM know this so would not stand in the way. Secondly in the absolute worse case scenario that they did refuse it.

      That leaves the Scottish Government to declare UDI and that would have the absolute backing of civic Scotland.

      So their will be a referendum at some point. Although I heard someone on BBC saying Spring 2018. That would be a couple of months before the conclusion of Brexit so is unrealistic. Also it’s far to long a timescale. I reckon if we have it then it would be spring summer 2017.

      That’s unless UDI is declared as WM refuses to recognise Scotland’s vote and presses on with Brexit without consultation.

    392. Les Wilson says:

      I desperately want Indy 2, the sooner the better. UKOK is in disarray and have shown their true colours. People see that and are dismayed.Our chance is there.

      However, there is one big problem. More and more noises are coming from Westminster, and all the media, that somehow they will disregard the Referendum result.
      Anti democratic, well yes.
      But they will find excuses, they will deceive and cheat, with help of the media. Our masters are great at cheating. As they realise more and more they have screwed things up, big time.

      If we pin our hopes only on a lasting NO result, and they fiddle out of the vote, we have a problem.

    393. cearc says:

      Here’s a bit of fun:

      Roadmap Plan for UK Departure of the EU
      We’ve gained exclusive access to a leaked plan that was put together by the Vote Leave campaign, the UKIP, and Nigel Farage. It includes detailed solutions for the following political and economic issues expected after the United Kingdom departs the European Union.

    394. Dr Jim says:

      John McTernan says a second Scottish referendum is not inevitable…

      So that’s it then it’s on for sure Freedom by a week on wednesday

    395. Ken500 says:

      VAT is estimated, totally under estimated based on Ireland which has a smaller economy. Fraudulent figures. Like most of Gers. To underestmate the strengths off the Scottish economy.

      All UK gov Treasury figures are flawed. The Budgets are fraudulent. They have been lying for years and secretly covering true figures. If the truth had been known, Scotland would have been Independent long ago.

    396. bjsalba says:

      As long as England thinks UKIP is a Party of Protest they will get nowhere.

      Farage is a Demagogue who pretends to be a man of the people. He isn’t. He may not be a Bullingdon boy but he surely is a City of London financial man through and through. Take a look at his working life before politics.

      He pushes issues like immigration, control of our borders and sovereignty to divert attention away from the real cause of our problems – the financialization of the real economy.

      Follow the money. Look at his backers.

      In this he is aided and abetted by by the media.

    397. Macart says:


      😀 LOL

    398. Robert Peffers says:

      @solarflare says: 1 July, 2016 at 7:11 am:

      “Hello, long time reader, first time writer and all that.”

      Right you are, solarflare, welcome to you but can we have more posting from you and less lurking?

      ” … My main worry though currently is an intransigent Westminster refusing to agree to another independence referendum and thereby trying to reduce the legitimacy of our position with other EU leaders.”

      I believe we need not worry about that, solarflare.

      I have known since Winnie Ewing made such a great impression upon the European set-up that she became known as Madame Écosse to one and all, that Europe was very sympathetic to the Scottish plight of being shackled to the UK.

      The thing is that, such is the diplomatic protocol, the members cannot say certain things or it is considered undiplomatic and one of those things is they must regard, “The United Kingdom”, as the Member State.

      Most, though, are well aware the United Kingdom is exactly what it describes itself as on the tin – a Kingdom but not a single country.

      They also know there are only two equally Sovereign Kingdoms in the Union and not four, unequally devolved countries, as created by Westminster to divide and conquer. They can all see the Westminster EVEL set-up for what it is. English attempts to dominate everyone else in the UK. They should see it clearly for has not Westminster, and in particular Cameron, attempted to do the same in the EU?

      As I say they couldn’t openly say so due to diplomatic protocol. Then we have the Media lies about Spanish opposition, Just why would Spain, the EU’s biggest fishing fleet and biggest fish processing member state, want to see Scotland outside the EU?

      Spanish trawlers have a larger quote from Scottish territorial waters than the Scottish fishing fleet has. If the UK including Scotland leaves the EU the Spaniards lose their access to Scottish fishing grounds and Spain’s economy relies greatly upon fishing.

      Then there is Gibraltar. Spain has always claimed sovereignty over Gib and have opposed the UK for centuries.

      Now Gibraltar is making moves to unite with Scotland as they too voted to remain when the English/Welsh part of the UK leaves the EU. Why would Spain want Scotland out of Europe as it is unlikely Scotland would want to take on Gib as a colony?

    399. Tinto Chiel says:

      Whenever the referendum comes, we must have control of the arrangements, and, if necessary, have neutral observers (EU)?

      Postal vote should be restricted to the ill, infirm and those out of the country on polling day. A residency qualification is necessary to stop holiday-home/visiting student abuse. As last time, 16 year olds should have the vote.

      Otherwise, for all that right is on our side, it will still be a close call, because the BBC will do everything it can to frustrate us. I hope, as others have said, the SG has a plan for that corrupt institution.

      Ken500 quite rightly says, “Don’t listen to Radio Shortbread!” but how do they know how many are listening to their gruel? I’ve never been asked my listening habits.

    400. galamcennalath says:

      Breeks says:

      “a smouldering ember which amounts to nothing until the BBC and mainstream Press provide it with a steady supply of oxygen.”

      I agree the BBC are the greatest obstacle to Scottish aspirations. There role is to protect the UK State by any means. It is quite clear subverting the democratic process is considered by them to be acceptable behaviour.

      I think the printed media are a spent force. People don’t buy newspapers for the new, far less political analysis. The problem with newspapers is the BBC and others insist on continually reviewing them and give more exposure to their drivel than the printed versions achieve!

      I really don’t know what to do with the BBC. I see a problem where those who still believe the BBC will see any attack on it as an attack on a neutral and unbiased ‘friend’. Somehow, those who still swallow the guff need education and exposure to the truth by other means. People have to come to their own conclusions that the BBC are not honest. Otherwise they will reject any attacks on it.

      This approach is happening, slowly but surely.

      I’m not sure how a “short and brutal bare knuckle fight with the BBC” can be achieved without hardening the un-converted to their NO stance.

      Difficult problem. It will all be sorted out after Indy! 🙂

    401. Andrew McLean says:

      Robert, 9:44
      Correct as usual but as with your earlier posts on this subject, given the 250 odd years, at the very least, the walls have been both defensive and financial barriers, sometimes both at once.
      at Villandia, soldiers letters home were discovered, some mentioned how cold, wet and boring a posting it was.

      from history to science, our lords (ha,ha,ha) fixing brexit for scientists,

      The conclusion, brexit is empirically the most stupid idea possible, who knew? So this reports explains the sudden reaction from the research community in becoming independence supporters, if they think Londinium will mach EU funding then they are not as clever as they profess to be.

    402. Nana says:

      Tinto Chiel says

      Whenever the referendum comes, we must have control of the arrangements, and, if necessary, have neutral observers (EU)?

      That should be a priority.

      My friend’s daughter told me on Wednesday the majority of people in her building have gone from No to Yes and her mum who works in a charity shop tells me the customers responses to the EU referendum is anger and those she has asked say they will vote Yes now. She talks to a lot of folk every day.

      Last indyref I gave my local hairdresser leaflets which were taken by customers, also gave some to my dog’d groomer. I know for a fact a lot of people went from No to Yes because of shared information. I would suggest people ask their friendly shopkeepers if they will allow leaflets on their counters or posters on the walls.

    403. Clydebuilt says:

      Kenn500 @10.15am. “If the truth had been known Scotland would have been independent years ago”……

      Exactly, so the BBC , Magnus Gardham and all his pals haven’t been wasting their efforts.

    404. gordoz says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Well said – totally needs to be sorted out well in advance.

    405. Tinto Chiel says:

      Quite so, Nana.

      It’s what the WBB is ideal for.

      Oh, and of course, EU citizens must have the vote. Lots of votes there, now. Thanks, Boris and Cams.

      galamcennalath: yes. We need a drip, drip campaign like flyers saying “Is it true or did you hear it on the BBC?” which could be left in shops and cafes.

    406. Nana says:

      Gardham the enemy within

      Alex Rowley has a pop at the anti corbynites and supports Nicola efforts. This should of course be on the reporting Scotland Birdy where r u??

    407. Grouse Manager says:

      You have to laugh! Loudly!

      As Tory England closes borders on Johnny Immigrant we get this:

      “England players keen for overseas appointment of next manager.”

    408. GusI says:

      I do realise that the Regional Trade Statistics are not one hundred percent accurate and only posted the link to dispel the myth that exports a assigned to the port/airport of dispatch. These statistics are a recent development and it will take some time to refine them to be as accurate as possible. I suppose that like all of the info coming from Westminster historically they treated everything as England. The only way we will get any real accuracy is when we are independent.

    409. Andrew McLean says:

      Since this thread (string, well at least in theory), is about relativity,,,

      May I present my theory of relativity in the Scottish context

      I is for Independence. b is little Britain, CPM is conservative PM and 1 is one year.

      I give it one year, the name of the Tory is irrelevant, One year of little Britain and it is mathematically impossible for the highly unstable construct U.K to exist in this universe.

      Somewhere in a galaxy far far away, a small item suddenly appears alone in the vastness of space, a small half burnt flag, all that remains of the empire that once covered half the globe in pink.
      In space no one can hear the laughter!

    410. Grouse Beater says:

      For Rock and other ill-informed, over-opinionated blowhards:

      No EU member can veto an existing member who wishes to remain in the Union. Hence, talks are on to keep Scotland held over in abeyance until such time as we are a nation state again. Where there’s a will…

      And for those with poor eyesight here it is in Braille:


    411. Proud Cybernat says:

      Dear Voter,

      Are you sick of referendums? YES.

      Do you want neverendums? NO.

      Then when IndyRef#2 comes along tell the BBC to behave fairly to BOTH sides. If they are seen (by either side) to have acted in favour of a particular side then there will be legitimate calls for a rerun. Thus neverendum.

      ONLY when the (next) referendum is seen by BOTH sides to have been conducted fairly and on a level playing field can we hope to end the neverendum loop. And that is entirely dependent upon the BBC being FAIR to both sides of the debate. If they are not seen as having acted equitably then there will be reason for one side or other to demand a rerun.

      No one wants continual reruns. We want the BBC to act fairly and impartially in order to END the neverendum loop.

      No more BBC reruns.

    412. Petra says:

      @ Grouse Beater says at 11:09 am …. ”For Rock and other ill-informed, over-opinionated blowhards:

      No EU member can veto an existing member who wishes to remain in the Union. Hence, talks are on to keep Scotland held over in abeyance until such time as we are a nation state again. Where there’s a will…

      And for those with poor eyesight here it is in Braille:


      That’s TELT them! Now let’s hope that someone from the BBC / corrupt media reads Wings.

    413. Andrew McLean says:

      Grouse, actually I am a monumental arse-hole, I will have you know, (now that could be my gravestone, marble not Rock)


      The problem is the E.U is different things to different men, some want a financial union some a social, some a varying degree of both. but what it can never be is all things to all men. And it’s this juxtaposition of monetary, and social that allows anyone to pick fault, especially old Australian men who have nothing left than the acquisition of power, every other faculty flaccid.

    414. Les Wilson says:

      If we do become Independent, the lies of Westminster will be found, seen and reported to the people of Scotland.
      Economic deceit will astound us.

      Can’t wait for that book to be written.

    415. Nana says:


      Oh jeez my aching sides

    416. Grouse Beater says:

      Andrew: Can I add, YOU DON’T HAVE TO USE THE EURO.

      Absolutely correct. It even states that in the signing documents as a choice.

    417. Grouse Beater says:

      Ah, at last, this one has caught fire – if you’ll excuse the poor choice of words. Let’s see how it does over the weekend.

    418. Grouse Beater says:

      Ha, ha! Funnier than words.

      Just as England closes down its borders to repel refugees, immigrants, Greek consorts, and the world they give us this:

      “England players keen on overseas appointment for next manager.”

      Hoo haar! 😆

    419. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ Solarflare 7.11 Welcome – if you have worries – come here and they will be eased away. I too was a ‘lurker’ til a couple of months ago. One of the main reasons for my ‘lurking’ is that by the time I’ve caught up, read all the links, thought about what I want to say the whole conversation has moved on. Even more so just now.
      eg: from this article alone –
      Nicola, ports, translators, buttons, Boris Gove May Fox Crab, foreign polls, exports, Iceland, Cameron, campers, too wee, too poor, too stupid, Corbyn, fitba’, EBC, lists, Vienna, tories, brexit, article 50 button, Spain, currency, Jakey Rowling, sovereign, Gibraltar, labour, economy, pigs, Kingdom, EU, QT, Brussels, westminster, Ruth, the Grid, 2 years, Yoons, survey, pound, Prince Philip, Indyref2, the Somme, oil, Euro Tartan Sarongs, gowk, ships, trade deals, Kezia, English Shadow Scottish Secretary, MSM, positive, the National, boxes, £billions, country, 2017, 2018, Gers, postal ballot, Yes etc. My brain is fried!

      Can anybody tell me what size the flags are?
      Anybody know when the film about the BBC is due out?

      Bit of news where we are:

      I can hear the call of Bettyhill! BTW if anybody here was on the car rally, do you remember coming up the hill to Bettyhill and seeing a mad woman, beside a caravan, with a flag, jumping up and down and waving like an idiot? Guess who!

    420. call me dave says:

      Took the grandchildren to the beach… it was bracing but good.

      Are we independent yet?

      Gove is asked about the threat to the United Kingdom from a Scotland split.

      “We have got to be realistic, Scotland voted differently and that has to respected. If you want a prime minister who understands and believes in Scotland … then I can do that”. FGS 🙂

      Oh!… £100m per week into the NHS by 2020… honest Gove!

      Oh! quaking news…

      Senior MPs Angela Eagle and Owen Smith are still to decide which of them has the best chance of beating Jeremy Corbyn in a leadership contest, if he does not give up.

      “After you Owen”.. “Oh no Angela you were first”

    421. Macart says:

      Yeah, the same old Euro trope is being peddled by the ill informed and the disingenuous alike.

      One more time the.

      1. Adopting the Euro is voluntary, NOT obligatory
      2. Even IF you wanted to adopt the EURO you would have to agree to abide by ERM2 for at least two years

      3. In order to comply with ERM2 you would require a central bank and stable currency

      In short – We don’t even fecking qualify in the short term.

      So pound Scots pegged to, or Sterling zone. Take a wild guess which one I’d favour this time round. We tried being all nice and cooperative last time out and strangely my spirit of cooperation is running a bit low these days.

    422. Helena Brown says:

      Reading the comments here, I too think we need our referendum a fast as we possibly can. Presently there is no sign of much distress in the UK finance business, but we all know there will be a storm on the way and we certainly do not want caught up in it. I reckon we need to get on with it as soon as possible, how much more information or discussion do we need. As for the BBC, I came to the conclusion that they were touting the leave side in the EU Referendum, so they got what they wanted, we should point that out to those who maybe trust them still.

    423. Edward says:

      Gusi @ 11.01 am
      I actually agree, but the problem is, for example for as long as the stats lodged at Southend based on Export declarations on each export only show country of origin as ‘GB’ then trying to fall back onto VAT/EORI registrations as a proof of origin will be flawed
      And yes the only accuracy will be when Scotland is independent (with the country of origin code changed to one for Scotland 🙂 )

    424. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Nana please take that vidio in small doses I dont want the Wingers up in arms at me causing you serious injury, your to valuable a linker xx.

      diz the tooth fairy still visit the aged, im wondering if I should ask the dentist for my tooth back today lol.

    425. Edward says:

      Just watched the cove Gove on Sky News, when asked about blocking a Scottish referendum on Independence stated that there would not be a referendum on independence

      That will be interesting
      especially if Scotland does have a referendum and Scotland votes to end the UK. It will be a video clip worth playing on a loop 🙂

    426. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana.

      @ Nana says at 10:58am ….’’Gardham the enemy within.’’

      Unbelievable! Conflict of interest? The corrupt media in this country has total control of the mindset of the populace and ‘they’ don’t seem to give a damn that we know now. No attempt to cover it up. I think I’ll be taking a closer look at Flavia Paterson. Roll on getting rid of the Scotland Office altogether. Twelve months from now?

      ‘’Magnus Gardham, currently political editor at the Herald Scotland newspaper, will join the Scotland Office as chief media officer next month. Before working on the Herald, Gardham worked for the Daily Record, Daily Mail and the Edinburgh Evening News ……

      Flavia Paterson, director of comms at the Scotland Office, said: “The Scotland Office is at the forefront of communications for the UK Government in Scotland and strengthening the communications team has been one of my top priorities. Both Kirsty and Magnus bring a wealth of experience from their different backgrounds in government and political communications.”


      Nana says at 8:04 am …….

      I see that there’s a petition on there supporting Corbyn if anyone wants to sign it.


      @ Nana says …. ”Meet the new shadow Sec of state for Scotland, what a farce.”

      I had a wee read through the tweets and this one stood out for me. Ha, ha:

      Elliott Husband ?@ElliottHusband 12h

      @PeteWishart *once went to Berwick for a fish supper


      Nana says …. ”Murdoch out several Irish radio stations yesterday and he has bought Gove, his very own little puppet …. Fat fingers spoilt my last post, should read Murdoch bought several Irish radio stations. And as for controlling a puppet.”

      He’s bought Gove via his wife Sarah Vine:

      Sarah Vine (born April 1967) is a British journalist, formerly for The Times, and wife of the politician Michael Gove (the current Secretary of State for Justice and also a former Times columnist). In 2013, Vine became a columnist for the British tabloid newspaper, the Daily Mail. Wikipedia.


      @ call me dave says at 8:32 am …. ”I like this tribute, looks good I think but some are not happy. Anger from Florence Nightingale fans as statue unveiled to Crimean War ‘nursing pioneer’ Mary Seacole “sold alcohol to soldiers slur”… least said soonest mended.”

      For goodness sake Dave, Mary Seacole was half Scottish AND black. What do you expect?


      @ Dorothy Devine says at 7:39 am …. ”Petra, did you no mean “gowk”?

      ”an awkward or foolish person (often used as a general term of abuse).

      synonyms: idiot • ass • halfwit • nincompoop • blockhead • buffoon •

      2.a cuckoo.”

      That’s exactly what I meant Dorothy (gowk or gawk). I was trying to find a word that rhymed with Rock and well came up with the right word … wrong spelling … which my husband explained to me was a ‘vulgar’ word!!!!


      @Ruby says at 7:54 am …. ”I reckon this single UK market is going to be a big issue in IndyRef2. They are going to make out as if all trade with the RUK will cease and millions of jobs will be lost. I thought this was an interesting article……

      The same ESRC research points to evidence that trade between Scotland and the world beyond Britain has been constrained by such a close integration into the UK, and it suggests there could be compensatory growth there.”

      Very interesting Ruby. Trading with rUK and ‘Security’ will no doubt be the key ‘scaremongering’ issues up for discussion in the lead up to Indyref2.

      Taking it that the figures are right (?) folks have to remember that we also ‘buy’ more from England than they do from us. Robert Peffers has also outlined how reliant England is on Scotland rather than vice versa and of course the bombshell …. ”Oil and gas exports could be expected to put Scotland into SURPLUS.”


      ‘Daily question: How much does Scotland buy and sell to the rest of the UK?’

      ”So, the question is about whether independence would be a hindrance to that trade, particularly if there’s a change to the current UK arrangements for using the pound sterling.

      The most recent Scottish government figures, not including oil and gas, show Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland. That’s a lot more than trade with the rest of the world, to which Scotland sold £21.3bn in goods and services, while importing £21.6bn from abroad. While UK exports more than doubled in the past 15 years, exports to the rest of the world grew by just over half.

      It’s worth noting that it doesn’t matter that Scotland/Rest of the UK (rUK) trade is not balanced. What matters is that each country has a broad, long-term, trade balance with all of its trading partners combined, or that it’s able to fund a deficit. Oil and gas exports could be expected to put Scotland into surplus.”

    427. Robert Peffers says:

      Good grief! I’ve been listening to a phone-in on LBC on the wireless. I’ve never heard so many mentions of, “The Country”, This Country”, “My country” and, “Our Country “, by so many different people, in a single Radio Station in my entire life and every one of them meant the United Kingdom that is not even actually a country in the first place.

      LBC bills itself as, “Leading Britain’s Conversation”, but they do not speak for Britain. They began as a London only broadcaster and there have been many changes in ownership since then. most of them by foreign nationals as the main shareholder.

      Read this :-

      It is a real eye opener. It even states that it was LBC that made Jon Snow famous.

      The point is that they highlight perfectly the public of London’s twisted view that London is, “The Country”, “The Whole Country”, “Their Country”, and it comprises the entire British Isles as they always conflate the UK with Britain and England as if these were all terms for England that they, the Londoners, rule over by a God Given Right.

    428. Robert Graham says:

      Well it didn’t take long we are witnessing the removal of any mention of Scotland by the media we have had our day in the sun and have had way too much exposure , Last nights QT from Preston was a reminder and a snapshot of how it’s going to be from now on , a quick look at BBC Scotland website Scottish content it is now very little thats where the BBC are shutting down any exposure as usual the State acts to shut the natives up . back to Preston when ever i saw that driving home Preston 5 miles it was thank f/k for that not long to go now , A bit like our journey not far now .

    429. Ken500 says:

      In 1916 Britain was not a democracy. 1928 Universal suffrage.

      Scotland only became a limited Democracy in 2000, which Unionist politicans still (illegally) still try to control. Their obsessional control and psychological, delusional lying, is threatening to ruin the whole economy and harm many vulnerable people.

      Many Unionsts politicians are inadequate alcoholic or have delusions. Alcoholics make poor decisions, without proper total abstinence rehab counselling, which including apologising and make retribution to those they harm.

      No one will beat Colbyn, he has the support of the Trades Unions (funding) and the members. The dissenters are just ditching their own selfish, ruthless ambitions. Pathological liars. Corbyn is the only honest moral politican in England/Wales. That is they are trying to get rid of him, because he calls them out.

    430. mike cassidy says:

      Nana 10.56

      Macart 12.16

      Its the date on this which is important.

      The appointments were made BEFORE yesterday’s Tory candidate comedy show.

      Never be fooled into thinking the establishment has lost the plot.

    431. Greannach says:

      I’m sorry Alistair Darling isn’t putting himself forward as a unity candidate. For both parties. It would save them the cost and inconvenience of separate and unnecessary branding.

    432. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Solarflare Welcome to WOS ( mind share site with others who are heavy laden).

      {My main worry though currently is an intransigent Westminster refusing to agree to another independence referendum and thereby trying to reduce the legitimacy of our position with other EU leaders.}

      Westminster will be in no position to stop Indy Ref2. There VOW was,is a sham & has been exposed, their Corperate Media are exposed as Liers with each & every Print run,Bbc are nolonger the broadcaster of choice & being held up for ridicule by other broadcasters/Social Media.

      Independence will be ours, therafter the EU question.

      Looking forward to reading more of your posts ( word of caution dont engadge with Trolls, there a pain at both ends ).

    433. Ken500 says:

      Scotland could set up a Central bank and the conditions could be removed for conditions for ERMs of two years. By negotiations. In light of Scotland proven fiscal responsibility and future prospects. The majority in Scotland are familiar with Euro use and exchange. It would so help Scottish trade and business, especially as the £ tanks. Less red tape and costs.

      Exporting by sea (container) is much cheaper than air. Air has a much higher cost factor. It is only suitable costs wise, with perishable high value goods.

      Anywhere but Heathrow, Delays and congestion increase costs. Heathrow far too big and expensive journey wise already. More journeys through will increase the costs – overnight stays etc. Missed flights.

      Direct flights From Dcotland aid the Scottish economy, less delays and congestion, and blood pressure. A more relaxed, less costly journey. More Environmentally friendly.

    434. mr thms says:

      #Edward @ 12:13 pm

      The Ruth Davidson Party doesn’t think so.. It’s all they ever talk about

    435. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 12.20

      Robert, you are one of very few people who seem to have a problem “getting” this. Language is about communicating and most of us have the ability to use our brains to understand what someone means – in the context of the subject they are discussing. If I was talking about “the country’s” performance at the Euro footy, nobody would think I was talking about the UK or Britain. Conversely, when you talk about your country, I know you mean Scotland.

      Join the 21st century Robert and try and keep up.

    436. Petra says:

      I’ve just come across the tail-end of the ‘Centenary of the Battle of the Somme’ programme.

      I see that the Royal Family are at the forefront such as Charlie, Billy, Harry, Camilla and Kate and for God’s sake they’re finishing up now with a band playing / and singing God Save the Queen.

      You’d have thought they’d have stayed away taking into account it was their direct ancestor who was heavily involved in triggering the whole horrendous nightmare …. and choosing the Generals such as Haig (Scot unfortunately).

      Did anyone watch this all the way through? Taking into account 25% of the soldiers killed at the Somme were Scottish did they get much of a mention? 25% of a mention? Or was it all about Old Engerland?


      @ Ronnie anderson says at 11:32 am …. ”Start the day rite.”

      What a laugh Ronnie. Hope over Fear right enough. That should be piped into every home in rUK in an attempt to ‘enlighten’ them.

    437. Stoker says:

      I contemplated writing an article on this subject but decided not to on the grounds that (a)-The Rev might not accept it and (b)-I’m not as well educated on the English language as most.

      Before i go on my rant i just want to make it clear that i’m having a go at everyone, myself included, and not at any one individual but certain names and examples have to be used to clarify the point being made. I’m singling out no-one.

      I have no desire to fall-out with anyone, especially names on a screen, i have enough enemies in real life thank you very much! So after that clarification if you take umbrage then that’s your call, i can’t do anything to help you.

      I’m doing this post with the very best of intentions and for the benefit of our cause and WOS. I’m even going to break my own rule of not doing epic off screen posts. Ladies and gentlemen you are about to witness history being made. 🙂

      Image Is Everything

      We are at one of the most politically critical points in our history and certain folk are wasting their valuable time and efforts on here arguing, attacking and repeatedly slapping each other around with their handbags. We’re not creating a very positive image with this behaviour. We’re living up to the Unionist mantra of nasty evil cybernats.

      To all the Rock bashers, you know who you are you’re on the list, give it a rest! I can guarantee you the only thing you are going to achieve is to put people off posting or even worse, you’ll put them off WOS. To reiterate Ronnie Anderson’s often stated words (and it’s in the rules) ‘If you think it’s a troll don’t feed the thing’.

      Quite frankly i’m truly surprised at the calibre of brains who repeatedly fail to resist responding to Rock’s posts, people i regard to be among our families wiser and more dedicated members, Ronnie Anderson especially.

      As for Rock, there is absolutely nothing wrong with repeatedly posting your messages over and over again because any teacher will tell you that for any message to be successful repetition is vital. Also, there is a possibility of new members joining us on a daily basis and they have to learn those messages.

      However, Rock, and i say this as a supporter of a lot you have to say, you are also guilty of uncalled for attacks on posters. It’s not a childish case of ‘they started it’, the fact you respond with like makes you as guilty as them. You’re no angel!

      You’re out of order repeatedly referring to IanB as being a hypocrite for expressing a view when he was a member of a socialist party. That is the very behaviour that will prevent others from speaking up, just like when they attack your points.

      People such as Thepnr and IanB are the very people we need in our movement, people with past affiliations with rival parties because these people will, more than likely, have far greater success converting others of a similar ilk than lifelong nationalists will. Never forget, the creator of WOS was a FibDem voter for too many years, now look at his contribution to the cause.

      I appeal to everyone on WOS, me included, to clean up our acts and focus on the fight ahead and cut out the petty infighting and squabbling among ourselves because it’s not very welcoming, it makes us all look like nutters, it disrespects the hard work put into the sites articles and totally destroys threads.

      We are normally quite good at policing ourselves on this site but recently all that seems to be going to the dogs and we’ve lost a good few intelligent contributors because of it. Quite a few of us are guilty – posting inappropriate material, swearing unnecessarily, attacking rather than challenging in a civilised manner, going ‘Off-topic’ when we already have a perfectly good O/T facility etc etc etc.

      One last point addressed to you Rock, i see from scanning previous posts your attempt to bait Paula Rose when she has kept her gloves off and nose out of it this time round. I’m going to be presumptuous and answer for her – she’s probably sick-and-tired of the same old same old routine and doesn’t think it wise or beneficial to be wasting her time or energy on you? My main point to this, Rock, is that you attempted to have a go at her when she kept her nose out of it for once. Now do you see what i mean about you just being as bad as them?

      Anyway, i’ve said enough on this subject and as i said at the beginning i’m not attempting to single out any one individual because we have all been guilty of something or another in the past on this site. Can we all take a good look at ourselves and amend accordingly? We have enough true enemies without planting and treading on our own landmines.

      Meanwhile, i’m off back to school to figure out what i did wrong to produce all that bold, it was only meant to be 3 words of bold. Sorry, Rev!

    438. mike cassidy says:

      Stoker 12.43


    439. Adrian B says:

      @Liz Rannoch,

      Can anybody tell me what size the flags are?

      5’x 3′ or in new money just over 150cm x 90cm

    440. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ Ronnie Anderson 11.32

      So glad I had my lunch after I watched the video!

      Apart from my questions @ 12.06 does anybody know if our share of debt will still be guaranteed up to the date of Independence?

    441. Luigi says:

      The BBC are busy trying all anti-Scottish angles at the moment. The latest today from Bertie Armstrong, is that the SFF (Scottish Fishermen) want out.

      Well good luck – during BREXIT, if Scotland is not independent, you can rest assured that the UK will use access to Scottish fishing grounds as a bargaining chip.

      Sorry Bertie, the fishermen are expendable and the UK will quickly surrender your fishing grounds if necessary. Your best bet is to support Scottish independence – at least the SG will fight for your cause.

    442. Ken500 says:

      BBC Scotland viewing figures are totally down. Brewer and Smith’s programmes are being taken off air because of lack of viewers. ‘Tonight 1916’ nightly mon-friday? or whatever it is called at 10.30 pm ? Brewers ‘Poltics ‘ programmes, where he speaks to himself or an imaginary friend, are also going. ‘Gary Smth’ BBC Scotland’ controller decommissioning, because of lack of viewers.

      Watch/listen to what anyone wants? Some people like to scratch a sore, but then it never heals. The only why to get rid of it is to stop looking. Fuelling the fire. Something less biased might transpire. They seem determined to tell lies and talk themselves out if a job but they were appointed by the Labour/Mafia. Not very relevant and naive.

      The SNP Gov should have introduced Leveson proposals if they could. This could have held MSM to account or fined. Not self regulation at all. Made them more aware or priced them out of the market.

    443. Bob Mack says:

      Sombre morning this day. Anniversary of the Somme. Some 500,000 British soldiers lie in marked grave ,the land having been given to their home country. Not mentioned however is the other 500,000 troops who lie in Europe buried in the mud where the fell to lie there for eternity.

      These men fought on European soil trying to safeguard the future of Europe. They remain Europeans. Many wanted peace and wrote home of their wishes to make the world a safer place. They put their lives on the front line to make that objective possible in horrendous unimaginable conditions.

      Whilst the Europeans give them honour and respect ,and tend their graves with honour,this country does its best to negate their sacrifice by distancing themselves from their fellow Europeans, How terribly sad and disrespectful to those who perished .

      It is a sad morning but one in which a little reflection is worthwhile.

    444. galamcennalath says:

      Excellent article from Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp.

      He makes the point that large numbers of previous NO voters will only vote for YES in the EU, not YES with unknown status, like last time.

      I am sure this is understood in the EU and we will have membership guarantees in place before the vote. However, otherwise, we will lose again.

      The EU must not be the totality of the sales pitch, that should be about WM deceit, betrayal, and incompetence. However, I agree we need that EU guarantee as part of the package.

    445. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ Adrian B 12.50

      Thank you.

    446. Ken500 says:

      Bertie Armstrong is a Tory and is spokesperson for a one man and his dog, association.

      Armstrong and some fishermen tell lies about th fishing industry and do not admit their part in the demise of the fish stock.

      Fish Quotas have increased and net agreements are being put in place for larger (conservation) net size, so dead fish stocks are not returned to the waters. Depleting the stock. After talks with Scottish fishing representative. The fishing industry in the NE relies heavily on EU migrant workers and the EU markets. The industry are dependent on them.

    447. yesindyref2 says:

      Such complete incompetence and lack of reading ability by the BBC. This about the trade talks

      “But other Commission sources said the two could take place in parallel.”

      but then this

      “The phrase “third country” means the UK post-Brexit.”

      Can somebody at the BBC please learn how to read, and actually look up Article 218, under which post Article 50 (not Brexit) talks are conducted::

      “1. Without prejudice to the specific provisions laid down in Article 207, agreements between the Union and third countries or international organisations shall be negotiated and concluded in accordance with the following procedure.

      As soon as Article 50 is invoked, the UK is treated as a “third country” for the resulting negotiations. Actual, phsyical, legal, political, Brexit doesn’t actually happen until the UK actually leaves the EU, which will be some time after the invocation of Article 50.

      Of course trade negotiations can take place after Article 50 is invoked – that’s the point of it. Negotiations though don’t mean anyone has to agree, or even agree to talk about a particular topic.

      You’d think the BBC would have taken the trouble to do some research, rather than play a guessing and make-believe game.

    448. Stoker says:

      @ mike cassidy (12:48 pm)

      Mike, i made that very point in my post but i don’t believe Rock to be a troll. He/She may have some strong views, a lot i agree with – re The National and his/her perspective (to a point) on the legal system etc. I also think he/she could deliver his/her points sometimes in a more challenging manner rather than in-your-face style but i’m not convinced he/she is a troll. Not yet anyway!

    449. heedtracker says:

      Stoker, not all YESers voters are sweetness and light. Btl WoS reality is no different from real reality. Takes all sorts.

    450. gus1940 says:

      All morning I have been watching The Somme Centenary coverage on BBC1.

      Am I alone in being struck by the near 100% omission of any mention of Scottish participation and sacrifice in the battle?

      The early morning news bulletins showed the vigils in Edinburgh, London Belfast and Cardiff so that was a brief mention of Scotland.

      We then went to Westminster Abbey where we heard a piper strike up the Scottish Lament ‘The Flowers Of The Forest’ only to see that the piper was from The Irish Guards.

      The rest of the morning waa spent at Thiepval where we had inserted a broadcast of a series of archival interviews of veterans not one of which was Scottish.

      And so it went on with plenty more mention of Irish participation from North and South out of all proportion to the numbers involved compared with Scots until at last between 11.30 and Noon we had a brief mention of a Scot plus a song and that was it as far as mention of Scottish participation.

      The broadcast ended at 12.30 and just before the end another piper struck up – but guess what he was Irish too. The broadcast concluded with Huw Edwards reading a list of the schools from which the kids present came – yet again guess what no mention of any Scottish school.

      What a disgustingly blatant politicisation of a very important commemoration.

    451. Nana says:


      + a wee reminder for your diary

      this week’s guests

      @TommySheppard @AnneMcLaughlin @AlynSmithMEP @sarasheridan and @craigmcangus

    452. paul gerard mccormack says:

      A very sobering timetable – Please could Chic McGregor (who might be on his hollybags) or someone else who noticed it, please re-post the link (i think he posted) to an article in the lawyers for Yes gazette/magazine? which included the timetable for independence. I’ve looked for it but its gone. Even as an infographic it showed the enormity of the task ahead of this country not even allowing for all the usual voices of dismal jimmyism.

    453. Breeks says:

      We are very strong at the moment, the Brexit vote gave us the mandate, the overwhelming backdrop of SNP representation at both Holyrood and Westminster have nailed that distinction between Scotland and rUK to the sticking post, and that act has been graciously welcomed by our credible friends in Europe.

      It has revitalised our chance of independence so much so that we can weigh up the pros and cons between a UDI and Indyref 2 in the near certain belief that one or other is about to happen. Who’d have thought it possible in such a short timescale?

      There is a paradox it seems. The EU laws and protocols for exiting Europe are untested and seem flexible and open to interpretation, although there is a distinct cast iron gravitas behind the various statements from the EU, which does not auger well for the UK which currently seems to be in blythe denial and lacking a credible grasp of its predicament. The EU in contrast seems quite sure of itself and fully aware of what is at stake.
      I even think it is perhaps possible that Scotland’s position, as it is, a benign ally of Europe caught between a rock and a hard place, might well be tempering the wrathe of the EU and sparing the UK proper to a degree we are not aware of. Perhaps not. Suffice to say, perhaps we should not test the patience of Mr Juncker.

      The paradox I mentioned? rUK is perhaps being spared European pressure because Scotland is the baby which Europe does not want to throw out with the UK bath water. Our position is buying them time… for now. But until we are independent, if the UK is out, then so are we.

      I am unsure which is the better option between Indyref 2 and a UDI. For the moment, despite alarm bells in my head about the media propaganda, I come down in favour of the referendum, if for no other reason than having a UDI to fall back on if the referendum falters, or more likely needs to be rushed.

      What I’m trying to get at, though not very well, is that we are currently in the calm before the storm. It will not stay like this for long, and neither should we be looking towards the triggering of Article 50 as our starting gun. YES 2 must be fully mobilised and ready to go at a moments notice. Get the flags and merchandise distributed, and cancel all leave for YES troopers.

      Personally, my instincts are telling me an Indyref 2 campaign will be overshadowed the whole way through by the trump card of what a UDI can give us. In 2014, a UDI was the nuclear option nobody dared even to consider. It was our ticket to civil war. This time around, a UDI seems a rather useful “Get out of Jail Free” card, ready to be played if or when the BBC and Yoon Press start manipulating the referendum debate. We have a UDI and we know how to use it punk!

      I’m not a betting man, but feel like a wager right now. I think we might very well set forth towards a referendum, but something in the process will see it overtaken by a pressing need for more immediate sovereignty. It might be European protocol and a pressing need for some tangible reality, or it might be an obstructive Westminster simply not co-operating. There will be some critical bottleneck which requires a commitment or decision which only a sovereign government can give.

      My prediction is Indyref will be called, and we will revel in it, but we might very well be independent by the time it actually arrives. Perhap’s we will go ahead with it regardless, and use the occassion for ratification of something which has already happened.

    454. Carol says:


      Well said. Although I visit this site nearly every day it is to read the articles – I rarely read the comments now. Too much swearing, attacking No voters (who may visit this site for information), blaming old people, insulting whole cities, etc. etc. I made a rare post criticising this last year and was immediately attacked by one of the regular posters – this is my first post since. For a group of people who want something so badly and failed in 2014 you would think they would learn from their mistakes.

    455. heedtracker says:

      BBC r4 news lunchtime, all about planet toryboy, pro PM Gove toryboy says SNP about to “foist” another referrendum on them so PM Gove is just the man to reach out and across to moderate Scotland. He really did.

      It really is 45 minutes of BBC loves toryboy’s, all fluffing each other. ew

    456. paul gerard mccormack says:

      Post-brexit democracy sham, nothing like a Tory party leadership election to highlight the fact that when media commentators et al talk about ‘this country’ they are really only referring to what i can imagine to be England.

      I can’t recognise ‘this country’ meaning anywhere else.

      If it’s a duck…it’s Greater Serbia.


    457. Ruby says:

      I posted this earlier but obviously the circumstances in IndyRef 2 are going to be very different because there could be a lot of companies moving from non EU England to EU Scotland.

      Ruby says:
      1 July, 2016 at 7:54 am

      I reckon this single UK market is going to be a big issue in IndyRef2. They are going to make out as if all trade with the RUK will cease and millions of jobs will be lost.

      I though this was an interesting article

      It states there might be a reduction in trade of 0.1% each year but points out that factors resulting from independence could compensate for that fall ie increase in trade Or there might be a boost to trade with the rest of the world.

      The same ESRC research points to evidence that trade between Scotland and the world beyond Britain has been constrained by such a close integration into the UK, and it suggests there could be compensatory growth there.

    458. yesindyref2 says:

      Poor Magnus, it seems likely he’s got himself a short-term contract. 2 or 3 years tops. Then there shall be NO Scotland Office.

    459. call me dave says:

      My grandfather was in the the Gallipoli region fighting the Turks.
      I have a photo of him and his army belt. The photo I have loos like he’s in the navy and has three inverted chevrons on his bluey black jacket. Taken in Cowdenbeath photographers.

      I later had it explained to me that men of joining up age felt it necessary to wear such a jacket when on long term leave away from the front. To indicate that they were official on war wounded. Just in case… they might get a white feather.

      They made them small and wiry in those days the belt would fit a child. One chevron for each war wound. 🙂

    460. gerry parker says:

      p g m.

      This what you’re looking for?

    461. Edward says:

      Ken500 @ 1.07 pm

      Wasn’t it Bertie Armstrong that was against independence in 2014. The BBC portrayed him as speaking for the fishermen, but recall fishermen saying that Bertie does not speak for them

      By the by just checked on WOS and sure enough in an articled entitled ‘Something Fishy’ written by Douglas Daniel on April 15 , 2014 and sure enough Bertie Armstrong is featured.

      “The chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, Bertie Armstrong, was reported in yesterday’s Press & Journal as saying that a vote for independence would leave Scotland with a weaker voice in the EU, as it would only have seven votes in the Council of EU Ministers, compared to the UK’s 29 votes”

      Think someone should push that in front of Bertie

      Full article here :

    462. Dorothy Devine says:

      What happens if gormless Gove gets the big job?

      Will he be able to vote on anything?

      Evel and all that could make his job damned tricky could it not? – not that its not totally shambolic at the moment.

    463. Dr Jim says:

      I’m hearing today that Scottish fishermen have demanded a meeting with Fergus Ewing to discuss their position in wishing to continue to Brexit along with the UK even though Scotland remains or becomes Independent or despite what anyone wants in our country they demand their wishes in this matter are respected

      Now I don’t know if any Scottish fishermen contribute on WOS or indeed read WOS but if they do just let me gently point something out about respecting peoples wishes and also trusting those who never respected the wishes of anybody in the first place The British Government who are on record as saying the Scottish fishing industry is expendable, I’ll repeat that again “Expendable” in case you didn’t hear it

      A question for our Scottish British don’t know what they are fishermen

      Who do you think is going to pay you to fish once the British Government have total control of everything and are you expecting the same deal from the British financially as the EU or something better from the Scotland you don’t wish to be a part of, or indeed do you expect to just do what you like and to blazes with everybodys countries as long as you get what you want

      If the desire is to have total freedom of fishing and to trade with whomever you like without the cost of joining any system so no accountable checks and balances can be imposed upon you and be answerable to no one

      Then I salute your brass neck and the thickness of your brains to imagine for one nano second that anyone is going to look you straight in the eye and call you anything other than a backward chimp and Fergus Ewing nice man though he is might just do that but probably even more colourfully

      It would seem when it comes to respecting referendum outcomes actually the SNPs record seems to be holding up quite well considering the squeeking from England about re-runs and do overs and mibbees we made a mistakerys so let’s ignore it and hide but can we still throw out the Darkies and the Romanians and the Polish and well everbody who’s different from us, then we can get back to being the real England the way we were before and just dominate and bleed the Jocks dry

      I don’t know what us “Whingeing Jocks” complain about, it’s only banter

    464. heedtracker says:

      Ruby, what does Scotland actually export to England, that they are no Project Fearing 2 they wont buy from the nation state of Scotland?

      Tunnocks are loyal.

    465. dandy dons 1903 says:

      That Bertie Armstrong fella is given way to much publicity-only reason is because he is a dyed in the wool true blue unionist from Ulster. We have heard his lies before the last indy ref and now we hear them again its like groundhog day and boy havent they started the scaremongering early, must be really worried!

    466. James Barr Gardner says:

      Valerie says:
      30 June, 2016 at 10:22 pm
      On the question of when for indyref2, there is a piece by a lawyer for Yes,on Business for Scotland, setting out a hypothetical timeline.

      It suggests polling and date set for Feb.2017. Seems logical.

      February weather can be nasty April would be a better choice for a bigger turnout, being nearer to the Scottish local elections taking place in 2017, on Thursday 4 May would hold Kezia’s slabour party in an interesting dilemma.

      For now and until then it’a a phoney war situation but in 2017 it is going to be explosive as for the English it will be a scramble for the life boats as lid comes flying off Pandora’s Box (Westminster commode).

      I think a special dram will be called for to bring the New Year, this one is going to be the best ever.

    467. paul gerard mccormack says:

      thanks gerry.

      I thought that this timetable puts everything into perspective:
      It is from Lawyer James Aitken in an article in Business for Scotland.

      February 2017 – the advisory group confirm that independence is our only option if we wish to remain a member of the EU
      February 2017 – there is a clear majority for a second independence referendum
      March 2017 – a second independence referendum is called for June 2017
      June 2017 – the second independence referendum is won by the pro EU side
      July 2017 – talks begin between Scotland and the EFTA, the EU and the UK
      July 2017 – Scotland submits application to join EFTA
      October 2018 – Scotland joins the EEA
      October 2018 – Scotland formally applies for EU membership
      October 2018 – the UK leaves the EU
      October 2018 – Scotland leaves the UK
      October 2018 – the UK is still negotiating its future relationship with the EU
      January 2021 – Scotland becomes a full member of the EU

      I’d double the amount of time.
      Chin Chin.

    468. starlaw says:

      Dr Jim @ 1-38
      Well said that man. Seems these guys would sell their grannies for a half baked cod.

    469. yesindyref2 says:

      Hell’s bells and buckets of blood. Here’s Rock in five words:

      Be careful who you trust

    470. S. MacLennan says:

      Carol @1:28: Good point well made. We need to be reacing out to people, many may be persuaded by courteous engagement. Swearing and blaming is puerile and sanctimonious.

    471. galamcennalath says:

      call me dave says:

      “My grandfather was in the the Gallipoli region fighting the Turks.”

      My great uncle John Murphy, a ploughman from Muirkirk, also fought at Gallipoli. He volunteered and joined the Ayr battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers. He survived Gallipoli and was moved to Egypt.

      The small oasis of Dueidar was held by 156 men, 120 from the 1/5th Battalion and the morning of 23th April 1916 the Turks attacked in force. The Scots held off the assault until relieved by Australian Light Horse at 13:30. This action was part of the wider Battle of Katia. They sustained 55 casualties and John Murphy died of wounds received in battle next day on the 24th April 1916.

      Here’s his grave situated by the Suez Canal. For far too many, this is how those glorious imperial battles ended …

    472. Ken500 says:

      Eligible voters who were supposed to be on the Electorial register, did not receive polling cards for the EU Referendum. They were stay IN.

    473. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      There was a program a few months ago on BBC Vote NO about probably the same fishermen. Their catch all goes to the tables in London. But many other fishermen are in a totally different creel.

    474. Grouse Beater says:

      Carol: “For a group of people who want something so badly and failed in 2014 you would think they would learn from their mistakes.”

      What failure are you talking about?

      Failure to accept patronising remarks calculated to goad?

    475. yesindyref2 says:

      From Herald: “Chancellor George Osborne warns 2020 budget surplus target will be missed as Brexit vote puts pressure on UK economy

      Well, duh.

    476. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Dorothy Devine @ 1.38pm

      IF he becomes Tory leader and the next PM, Gove will be OK to vote on all matters. He, an two of his challengers for the Tory leadership, may be Scots-born, but, they represent English constituencies, and, as such, are classed as “English” when it comes to EVEL.

    477. Ken500 says:

      Some Scottish fisherman support Brexit. The discussion will put them right and allay their fears. Many fishermen in the NE support the SNP and fund the Party. They have voted for Alex Salmond for over thirty years. Some are ardent Tories.

    478. yesindyref2 says:

      One comment from Carol is this

      ” Carol says:
      8 May, 2015 at 3:18 am

      Murphy has lost! – thank you Glasgow I can’t stop smiling. Hoping for good news for Edinburgh West.”

      Another (lost it) was something about being a YES voter from Edinburgh.

      If anyone wants to check the postings of anyone on Wings just google

      “Wings over scotland” “carol says”

      WITH the quotation marks. Sorry Carol, being intrusive.

    479. Jack Murphy says:

      Westminster’s Scotland Office makes a new appointment—-Magnus Gardham!

      “Magnus Gardham, currently political editor at the Herald Scotland newspaper, will join the Scotland Office as chief media officer next month.

      Before working on the Herald, Gardham worked for the Daily Record, Daily Mail and the Edinburgh Evening News………………..

      Both Kirsty and Magnus bring a wealth of experience from their different backgrounds in government and political communications.”

    480. ronnie anderson says:

      @Stocker did you know that the Angler fish is a predator, so are some Troll Posters (nameless) I do try to avoid commenting directly & same as yourself engourage others to do the same, that said whit ur you angling fur ( cawing me wise )LoL , whatever it is your affter ave no goat it lol.

      Gled you got that out, times will get tougher on here & other Indy sites & we can quite easely hold the moral high ground.

      Keep up the good works everybody ,we fought the battle in 2014, now lets win the War.

    481. heedtracker says:

      Fishing industry in Scotland is divided over EU membership. This guy’s a tory and I think he was a YES.

      Aberdeen fish processor Andrew Charles said he fears for a future outside the union.

      “The problem that we have is if we come out what do we put in its place?” he said.

      “We have a management plan and from my experience that is slowly starting to work. Every stock is sustainable.

      “If we were to come out of Europe we could find ourselves with management being controlled by a Westminster government. How would they cope with that?”

      He added: “I let evidence speak for itself – we have a growing fishing industry.

      “Our fishing industry would be knocked back 10 years, throwing it into crisis. It’s not perfect, fishing management is very complex.

    482. ronnie anderson says:

      As John Major was called the greyman of british politics,then Michiel Gove is the Playdoh wannabe

    483. Ruby says:

      I don’t have a problem on this website because I don’t feel obliged to read every post. If I discover that a poster offends me or bores me then I just scroll past. It’s a bit like picking the author you like or dislike in a bookshop. For example I would never choose to read a Catherine Cookson book or a Mills & Boons novel but I honestly have no problem with a novel that contains a lot swear words & ‘mature content’

      I think there is something for everyone on this forum you just have to pick & choose for the most part I find all the ‘Wings authors’ to be very interesting except when they write about football that is.

      PS I just heard someone on the radio saying there would be no brexit. I don’t know if it was on the news or the Jeremy Vine show as I was driving and paying more attention to not hitting any of the 100s of policemen in and around Holyrood.

    484. Sassenach says:

      Having seen that the SNP were ‘dropped’ from BBC QT this week, and then the treatment of Tasmina by a boorish Andrew Neil, following it – I am tempted to suggest that the SNP give up appearing on such programmes – they will never get a fair hearing, anyway, so why set ourselves up to be ridiculed?

      Would it do the party any harm? I certainly don’t think so.

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