After the gold rush
We’ve got a lot to do tonight, readers, so this is just a quick passing thought. We’re constantly told, among the endlessly contradictory stories about oil, that the biggest problem with it is that it’s running out. Production is declining, they say, and what’s left is harder and more expensive to get to and might not be worth all the bother.
We can’t be independent, then, because while we might be fine for 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 years, after that we’ll be knackered and bankrupt. (Which assumes we don’t find any more oil west of Shetland, or in the Clyde Basin, and that we’re too incompetent to build a lucrative renewables sector in four decades, and that we weren’t able to budget for an oil fund. But let’s go with it for now.)
There’s one question nobody asks, though.
What happens when the oil runs out if we DON’T vote for independence?
Because the implication is that when Scotland is no longer sending all its vast North Sea bounty to the Treasury to pay for its higher public spending, and more besides, London will generously INCREASE that spending to make up for the big hole that oil will leave in our economy (particularly north of the Central Belt).
Westminster, we’re asked to believe, will start pumping billions of pounds north out of the kindness of its heart so that Scotland doesn’t become an economic wasteland.
You know, just like it did when oil was less valuable in the late 1980s and 1990s, and the UK governments of Thatcher and Major did so much to protect all of Scotland’s manufacturing industries. Just like it’s doing now in the north of England.
Because, after all, there’s nothing that UK Tory governments like doing more than throwing billions of pounds at a country that never votes for them, and there’s nothing that UK Labour governments like doing more than throwing billions of pounds at a country that will vote for them anyway whether they spend money or not.
Vote No, Scotland. London will look after you when it’s drained every last drop of oil from your seas. You can trust the government. Money no object.
Good article and absolutely correct. If they allow, no almost insist on poverty, foodbanks et al, here. when they are draining our oil, what chance when there is none.
Does not take a genus to understand we will be put back 100 years, with all that entails.
Woe betide a NO!
Used this very argument myself.
Absolutely. A UK regional Scotland post-oil will be something a lot more like the North East of England, especially as far as public funding goes. What a glorious future awaits!
This is the main reason I’m voting YES.
Once the oil goes Aberdeen & Shire will be cast aside and left to rot as West Central Scotland, Teesside, Merseyside, Tyneside, South Wales etc before them when it’s economic value declines.
All those billions brought ashore will count for nothing.
Now an Independent Scotland won’t mean the oil will never run out but when it does it’s gonna be exceptionally hard for Holyrood regardless of the political stripe of the Govt. to ignore Aberdonia.
For Westminister however, we’ll just be another provincial town they forgot to shut down.
We need to hit harder about the consequences of staying in this union. People are not being told the truth about how badly westminster is mismanaging the economy.
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/feb/vulnerable-miss-out-support-hands-uk-gov
Just a sample of what London does:
http://www.nao.org.uk/report/progress-report-on-the-regional-growth-fund/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10658950/Most-of-Government-fund-to-boost-local-economies-remains-unspent.html
“Less than £500m from the Government’s £2.6bn fund designed to spur regional economies has so far reached projects, the National Audit Office says”
Spot on Stu. At the moment we have food banks in Aberdeen and in affluent Banchory on Royal Deeside. Who knows what we will have after Westminster has finished fleecing us. Soup kitchens? Labour camps where the poor work for food? This really is the last chance saloon for Scotland, vote YES or we as a nation are finished.
Great article . I’ve been banging on about the consequences of a no vote in 30/40 years time for weeks now. Without a yes vote and using the time and resources to restructure the Scottish economy we will be totally and utterly shafted. Although I hesitate to use negative campaigning,this scenario cannot be ignored.
Hi folks, been asked if you can provide any links to Sir Ian Woods’ report he wrote recently for the SG. Am trying to find out if a certain Cooncil is blocking it from it’s employees.
O/T I’m afraid so soon – but this has just cropped up:
The UK Parliament is at it again with the Public Accounts Committee holding an enquiry into the role of Scottish Government civil servants in the independence campaign.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26344766
I didn’t see any indication here that they would also investigate the role of Treasury civil servants in Osborne’s currency advice … looks like a slightly different front is being opened up.
Thats gonna be my default go-to argument when the Duncan Hothersall’s of the world start their pish on the subject.
Cheers Rev.
When it’s gone it’s gone..they will probably make us clean up and decommission while they light their cigars with hunner pound notes. Thought we were getting a bit of Neil Young..
Found it
http://www.woodreview.co.uk/
“Hi folks, been asked if you can provide any links to Sir Ian Woods’ report he wrote recently for the SG.”
This?
http://www.woodreview.co.uk/documents/UKCS%20Maximising%20Recovery%20Review%20FINAL%2072pp%20locked.pdf
Thanks Stu
This needed to be said, and it’s a question that needs to be asked of the next BT stooge up for questioning.
Aye, Right!
62 year old Aberdeen taxi driver last month: “I’m voting no, because aye there’s oil for the next 40 years, but then what!”
Me: “Will the oil no run out if we vote no?”
Taxi guy: “Well we’ll need to go cap in hand to Westminster when it does.
Me: ####!
Well said thegreatbaldo. you wouldnt happen to drink in the old kings highway?
I wonder if such a future UK would still have the 4th largest defence budget in the world, or still be squandering billions on upgrading the U.S. owned nuclear weapons on the Clyde? Equally relevant, will this same UK have managed to reduce the trillions of debt, or will it still be struggling to reduce just the interest on it?
Finally, I wonder whether the future generation of Scots will be spitting on our graves for inexplicably rejecting the opportunity to vote for independence from this one-sided and unfair union?
There is no positive case for the Union.
There is a negative case for voting NO.
There are no negatives for Independence
There is a positive case for saying YES.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxS3RjilBzg#t=426
The only people who benefit from a NO, are politicians, the elite and the establishment. All the people who want status quo, because it suits them. They are the few percent, the majority in Scotland cannot afford a NO vote.
I asked exactly this question on the Herald comments page on the article concerning a Press and Journal poll showing a low support for Independence in those areas in the northeast and highlands.
In fact I asked if there is a No vot then then the oil runs out do the people of Aberdeen and surrounding areas have a plan.
Do the voters in the Highlands think the LibDem MPs will have any influence when the next Conservative Government gets in (2015).
And do farmers and fishermen in those areas think they will be any better represented, as they haven’t been up until now.
No answers so far.
The problem that us in the yes camp are facing is that the majority of the no campaign are ignorant of the truth and believe everything the unionist parties and media throw at them.
Chalks
Been off the sauce fer a whiley now but I was known to frequent that hostelry for the occasional apres match libation or twelve 🙂
Fallin off the wagon for the Saints game so I may stagger in that general direction at the weekend.
I should add to my post above my last question was: Do they really believe that Westminster, will, after a No vote, give away any real powers or control.
Looks like business is doing well in Scotland?
One good piece news, oil industry rep, on BBC news,18.30pm saying they’re pretty sure there are oil fields west of Shetland, just waiting to be tapped, I don’t think BBC Scotlandshire wanted to air that information.
If indeed there is also oil/gas in the Clyde basin and speculation is mounting, then the 40 years run out point may well be greatly extended, which would make a no vote, that much more harder to swallow.
“Looks like business is doing well in Scotland?”
Did you read the note at the right-hand side of the chart?
If oil would have made Scotland “Embarrassingly Wealthy” (McCrone Report) back then, then why is it a burden now.
http://youtu.be/JL8rPmkkcAY
Radio Scotland news reporting tonight that oil exploration in north sea is getting too expensive and oil companies may move to cheaper countries. Not the impression I’ve been getting the last couple of adays
I have also pointed this out in conversations and it is in fact worse than stated above.
Plus – Oil is getting harder to get at everywhere else too, just not all at the same rate. Meanwhile demand is still growing. So Scottish offshore expertise will be in demand for generations.
Another important fact here is the UK long term strategy and projects for transport and infrastructure. There is absolutely nothing planned for Scotland and next to nothing in the North of England, and that is over the next 20 years, even before oil runs out in the North Sea
The document has not changed much between Labour and the Tory coalition government.
The UK has not had pland to invest in Scotland for years.
The UK has no plans to invest in Scotland for the next 20 years except (and only except) in areas that benefit the rest of the UK (SEast). Eg. carbon capture – maybe, interconnectors).
Google: UK infrastructure strategy.
or download an look at pages 105 onwards of:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/263159/national_infrastructure_plan_2013.pdf
Key Message:
The UK doesn’t even have a plan A for Scotland.
Apologies for typos above! Bring back the edit feature 😉
@chalks, baldo
Aye, nothin like a guid slash under boots stairs fetir a sesh 😉
There are many things the oil industry brings to an Independent Scotland. The revenues from production reported tonight on BBC as £5 billion for 2013-14.
They also reported investment this year of £13 billion, how much tax revenue from that also finds it’s way currently to Westminster via income tax, NI, vat, excise duties, corportion tax and everything else? My guess is more than half.
Someone pointed out earlier that the BP field Clair Ridge was built in Norway, for the jackets this is correct but the higher value topsides is being built in Hyundai Heavy Industries Korea. Total project value £4.5 billion, but a great big chunk of it awarded to overseas companies.
There is noway on earth that the Jackets can be built cheaper in Norway than in Scotland or even England. Why they went abroad did not come down to cash.
Finally there’s the skills and people the industry turns out who are in demand world wide. Forty years is long enough to use an oil type fund not to invest in the stock market but I believe to invest in Scottish industry. With the right investment and careful management our engineering could one again be the envy of the world.
Compare Aberdeen’s in fact all of Scotland’s road network compared to England’s. Fast motorways all over England, boosting their economy, opening up isolated areas. Here in Aberdeen after 40 years of oil, no by-pass, slow ageing dangerous A96 through Inverness, death trap that is Pert Inverness A9. Try driving up to Scrabster
We have been looted for the 21st century road network across England and now they want our oil for HS2.
The Tories, if we treat them fair, might give us all a bike, reconditioned of course, to nip down to the food bank, if they haven’t went belly up.
The proud pseudo middle class Scots can afford their own bike.
can anyone tell me for the benefit of my pal where the uk stands on the list of wealthiest economies?
@ Thepnr, that may have been me and Kvaerner at Verdal Norway building the Clair jackets at over $6 billion. Its worth seeing the Verdal yards as they build so much up there, not just expro jackets. I think they;ve built 45 jackets alone since they opened. Here’s the Verdal yard on facebook and its heart breaking to think what’s been lost to Scottish industry thanks to our bloated bettertogether kleptocracy in Westminster.
https://en-gb.facebook.com/kvaernerasa
Finlay
You will find what you need at this site;
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/
Exactly! I’ve thought about this many a time. What happens when the oil does run out, and we are still part of the UK?
Sure as hell, that it really will come down to ‘on a needs basis’. Scotland will only receive what she needs. If she doesn’t like what she is being given money wise …then raise the Council Tax, charge Tuition Fees, and privatise the Scottish NHS.
The Tories would just love that! They would twist the knife and make us bleed if it ever came down to that moment. Turn ‘Tory’ to receive ‘…some’ money or just die. That would be our options.
The world would laugh at the sheer stupidity of the Scots; that they had the chance (twice) to become independent and thus use its vast resources to improve their status, but instead, bricked it and lived in perpetual squalor.
Seriously …our hallowed name as a nation for great thinkers and true enlightenment will sound completely hollow, and no doubt be treated with mild contempt if we voted ‘No’.
Good article Rev Stu. It is of course an incisive, and extremely relevant question. Once our reserves of oil and gas eventually run out, we will be dropped as quickly as is possible by the British establishment. Do you think anyone will be rushing to prevent Scottish independence like they are doing at present? Of course not. I am afraid to say that the SNP have been pussying about in regards to the consequences of a No vote. They really need to start getting over the risks inherent in a No vote. This constant positivity is starting to get on my man tits!…
Scotland votes No in 2014. Fast forward 50 years. The oil fields have run dry. The UK economy is shot to pieces. In 2064 Westminster passes legislation to hold a Referendum for English independence. All of Scotland’s remaining 40 MPS vote against the legislation but they are outvoted by the overwhelming numbers of English MPS. England overwhelmingly votes YES for independence.
Scotland, you’re on your own.
So, better go it alone now rather than later. At least we will have a chance to make what’s left of our oil industry work for us in the future by investing it in a sovereign oil fund like the Norwegians have done.
@WingMan
Thanks for that, I needed cheering up and that’s done the job just dandy.
This article points out just what I’ve mused on with people for a year or so now – what will happen to us when the oil does run out and we’re still in the Union; I don’t think we’ll have much negotiating strength then.
Of course for Unionists this type of concern wouldn’t make sense because for them Britain is their nation and so it wouldn’t make sense that other Brits would want rid of part of a naturally occurring state such as is formed by the main British island (as a matter of interest, how many islands are NOT a single state? Dominican Republic and Haiti springs first to mind but not sure how many similar situations there are around the globe).
For many doubters/undecideds I think it does provide food for thought because they aren’t British nationalists; they recognise that the people of the UK are consistently moving further and further away from a unifying identity, and less and less willing to subsidise parts of the country too lazy to work or too busy injecting heroin (allegedly).
@JLT
Those things you have mentioned will all happen if we vote No (NHS privatisation, tuition fees etc), never mind if we are still part of the British state when the oil runs out.
Great post. And of course in the circumstance where the tap runs dry, would the empire of opposition to our independence would diminish? Even then we will have all kinds of other good stuff they need, food, water, renewables, people, space. But by then we will have wasted this treasure… given it away.
Visited Holyrood with the bairns this morning. Can’t imagine many newly indi countries have a purpose built parliament primed and ready to expand operations. She’s good to go. Thank god we don’t need to build a new one.
muttley79
Agree completely. Only problem seems to be, despite all this negative onslaught, the Scots seem to be keeping their head. Reminds me of 2011, when we were told the SNP were through, there seemed to be a silent majority that did not follow that line. We can only hope this can happen again.
Here is a tweaked animation of the bitter the ‘gether panic song!
http://youtu.be/RCqZDUppcL0
…and after the oil there’s always this;
http://www.mountainjusticesummer.org/facts/steps.php
Need to get some turbines up there quick!
Great job Stu – will be donating
“London will look after you when it’s drained every last drop of oil from your seas”
Seriously doubt it Rev, ‘cos by that time they’d be siphoning off our water.
they’d be siphoning off our water…and our electricity.
I think the visit by Dave has not done them any favours.
It has highlighted the importance of oil to the UK which is why they now have to give the impression that there is trouble in the oil industry – but I think less and less folk will listen to them.
Who rates Danny Alexander, Alistair Carmichael or Alistair Darling?
Remember the mantra.
British if it succeeds,Scottish if it fails.
This is similar to what I use to question those that are brainwashed NOists, who use oil as their reason to vote NAW.
“What happens to your family in 40 years when English Nationalism says; lets get rid of the whinging sweaties now that their oil has run dry, where will that leave your kids and grandkids?”
You would be surprised what effect this has on them.
If you want to see what Westminster will do to these places then just look at the old heavy industry or coal mining areas. They’ll abandon them once they’ve sucked them dry and leave them to rot and beg or worse. The generations now and in the future deserve dignity and a chance at life and meaningful work.
I’m not sure I can take much more of this; the constant lying of the British and the sheer stupidity of the Scots who intend to vote No is such a downer.
If anyone out there has any good news to cheer me up I’d really like to hear it. Please.
Muttley79
Very true, mate. It may not happen overnight, but it will come, and very much before the oil runs out. Your right on the money there!
I think Proud Cybernats vision of the future is probably not far off the truth. What happens when we do become a burden, and then the English get fed up with us.
Our moaning and blaming things on the English may end up becoming just that; only it will solidify into real resentment, if say in 40 years time, the oil is almost gone and half of Scotland still sits in depravation while Greater London gleams like futuristic metropolis.
I can see a very resentful Scotland ‘bitching and cursing’ the English openly if this was to come to pass. That is when England will want shot off Scotland. It will be England who will end the Union …and we will only have ourselves to blame. Our children and our children’s children will curse us for being weak. Instead of our generation going down in Scottish history as the poet-warriors who gave Scotland her dignity back, we will be seen as spineless. Maybe not as bad as the ‘parcel o’ rogues’ who sold us out in 1707, but a special place will be reserved for us as the doubters who missed their chance.
I’ve been saying this for ages – when the oil runs out, you’ll see an upsurge in support for Scottish independence from Westminister politicians of all hues. There’ll also be little or no renewables sector because that green levy is just too onerous.
Liz
Having Cameron coming up to show how important Britain is to the oil industry, while Better Together say there isn’t an oil industry, is sweet. It has both traction for intellectual political debate and it is comedy gold.
The Rough Bounds says: If anyone out there has any good news to cheer me up I’d really like to hear it. Please.
Cheer up mate.
Want to see the Yes vote go up again. Watch Nicola take JoLa apart tonight. I’ve no doubt that we will see a repeat of the ‘word of mouth’ tomorrow when folk discuss how the Better Together mob’s case fell apart once more.
We are going to win. I don’t doubt it. The minute we cross that 50% mark, I can see an even bigger push in converting people, just to make sure that it doesn’t go back down below 50% …and we ‘Wingers’ will all be at the heart of it.
Plus …think of the party that we will have on the 19th of September. Like other ‘Wingers’, I intend to head into the City to party up and down the Royal Mile throughout the night! Believe me, mate, when we win, I can see the phone numbers, texts, and where to go in the city being rife on this site that day! Keep that thought in your head!
What will they do when the oil runs out? Easy they will frack till it’s done too and they have ruined the water table in lots of areas. Although to be honest, they will start fracking on 20th September if there is a no vote.
As someone who votes for Labour in Westminster elections, I have to say that I really don’t go along with the bit about Labour treating Scotland with indifference because we’ll “vote for them anyway whether they spend money or not”.
That makes the fairly baseless assumption that politicians determine spending policy solely on the basis of Scottish vs non-Scottish issues. What actually happens is they back regional spending projects at a local level.
It’s also not the case that every seat in Scotland is a safe Labour seat – there are numerous marginals where Labour is defending a small lead or trying to target a seat they don’t hold. Overlooking these areas because they have a clear majority of Scottish seats in total would be complete stupidity.
Will the Tories care about Scottish interests? Probably not, but the Labour comment is really wide of the mark in my view.
I feel some of the comments on this thread miss how the UK values or uses Scotland.
a) The UK essentially Lords over Scotland. Oil or no oil that will always be the same in the Union. They love the power, the privilege and keeping us well in our place. The UK empire will finally be Dead, when we leave and not before. In the decades that we have had oil we have been belittled and patronised. The only difference is that it will step up gear as the oil fades.
b) Scotland has many resources that contribute to the UK. Before Oil Scotland was a net contributor (a la John Jappy). After oil it will be the same: low pop, high resources, Energy rich economy. The UK will still strive to keep hold of us while investing as little as possible. So, no change. We just won’t have something as enormously beneficial as Oil (Global opinion/view) aka. such a burden as oil (UK view).
c) Scotland is:
– The SE. UKs dumping ground.
– UKs natural resource pool.
– A guarantee of shoring up diminishing UK influence abroad.
– A Large source of Extendible Miltary personnel
Scotland essentially belongs to the London hegemony and oil or no oil is a prised possession of the UK.
@ ruther60 says:
“Radio Scotland news reporting tonight that oil exploration in north sea is getting too expensive and oil companies may move to cheaper countries.”
If true, surely that means the oil in the North Sea will be even more valuable in future once the ‘easy’ stuff is used up?
Anyone who knows the Aberdeen area will know the scale of building that oil companies are doing at the moment.Land is being swallowed up and the buildings can’t go up fast enough yet the BBC try and make out its all going downhill.
O/T but maybe one for the repository, interesting read.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/02/25/the-fiction-of-the-continuing-state/
Sorry if it’s been posted previously
Bill
I would agree that Labour in Scotland do want to win seats and do attempt to show an interest. Where the whole thing falls down is that in order to win overall in Westminster they have to play to the political paradigms of the marginals in England. This results in policies and personalities that are not in tune with either what Scots want or truth what many ordinary Labour activists want.
# Proud Cybernat
England will never vote for independence. When the oil runs out, Westmonster will still rob Scotland’s Renewable Energy and water resources.
The Woods Report is telling them to get every last drop of oil from the Continental shelf in the next thirty years. If we don’t vote for independence now, there will be no oil or gas left if we ever get another chance to vote.
he problem that us in the yes camp are facing is that the majority of the no campaign are ignorant of the truth and believe everything the unionist parties and media throw at them.
The sooner we the YES camp realise this the better. It’s no use thinking that the internet will solve all our problems, it simply won’t.
We all have to up our efforts to get to the people who don’t use the internet.
Stairheid will be getting ‘oiled up’ in the dressing room the noo, the trainer will be sayin “hit her on the weak spot and give her a few cheap shots c’mon you’re the champ debater hit her with the EU, uppercut with currency”…C’mon Oor Nicola wipe the flair wae her!
After the gold rush?
Needs based allocation of resources a.k.a. ‘pooling and sharing’.
A good map and animation here, of where the bulk of need is located in the UK. Remember where HS2 will run and how that can be expected yo inflate property prices along it’s route, and hence need.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/31/deprivation-map-indices-multiple
@Findlay Farquaharson says:
can anyone tell me for the benefit of my pal where the uk stands on the list of wealthiest economies?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/uk.html
I’d rather trust a starving wolverine with a bag of baby squirrels, than trust Westminster government with our future.
I think STV will have given JoLa about 3 dry runs at getting it right tonight
” Remember …when I say over to you…. that means….its your turn “
For Findlay Farquaharson, asking where the UK stands on the list of wealthiest economies:
On total GDP(Gross Domestic Product) the UK is the 6th or 7th wealthiest country/biggest economy in the world, after the US, China, Japan, Germany, and France. The UK is basically level with Brazil, and ahead of Russia, Italy, and India.
HOWEVER, the ranking is not so good when looking at GDP per person, with the UK at about #21 in the world. (Norway is in top 5, Ireland is top 20, but we are ahead of France and Japan. Data from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Can’t wait for 22:30 STV. The person typing the subtitles is going to be using ctrl+c a lot! *Please do not adjust your TV set…Johann Lamont is just stuck on repeat*
@crisiscult
“as a matter of interest, how many islands are NOT a single state? Dominican Republic and Haiti springs first to mind but not sure how many similar situations there are around the globe”
The following come to mind-
New Guinea (Indonesia/Papua-New Guinea
Tierra del Fuego (Chile/Argentina)
Ireland (UK/Irish Republic)
Borneo (Indonesia/Brunei/Malaysia)
Cyprus
There is no one alive in Scotland today who will see us run out of oil.There is a process known as coal liquefaction that allows us to change coal to oil .There is the Bergius Process,first developed in 1913.Germany used similiar processes during the second war to supply about 40% of its fuels. In 1981 to 1987 a Kohleoel Process plant was working in Bottrop,Germany.The same process is currently in use in South Africa.In the 1970,s and 1980,s Nippon Kokan,Sumitomi and Mitsibushi developed the NEDOL Process.The USA,China and other countries are developing these and other processes now.As we here in Scotland sit on 300 years of coal in addition to the current 80 years of discovered oil I don,t believe we need worry about fuel reserves.
and Timor (Indonesia/East Timor)
Anybody have any links to that Shettleston meeting of last week.
Let us achieve our independence and start the transition from being a regional economy to a headquartered one.
It looks as if serious oil has been discovered in the Raithlin Basin http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/9824252/Hopes-of-third-big-oil-find-off-Irish-coast.html just off Ireland’s north coast. A glance at the map shows it is very close to Scotland’s west coast and the Clyde Estuary. After independence Scottish Government has already said they will issue exploration licences for west coast. Also a friend who worked on a rig off Barra in the seventies said they were producing 10,000 barrels a day for the first fortnight of its’ life then for no reason it was shut down. Also millions spent by BP and others exploring Clyde Estuary in the seventies suddenly closed down on orders of the MOD. There is a huge story here just waiting to be ‘explored’. How’s that for a bit of black gold punnery? Ok ok I know.
@The Rough Bounds
Wee joke to cheer you up, looks a bit like BTL on the Daily Heil
Three Englishmen were sitting in a bar and spotted a Scotsman. The first said “see that Jock I’m going to wind him up”. He walked over to the Scot and tapped him on the shoulder.
“Hey, I hear Alex Salmond is a sheep shagger.”
“Oh really, hmm, didn’t know that.”
Puzzled the Englishman walked back to his mates. “I told him Alex Salmond is a sheep shagger and he didn’t care!”
“You just don’t know how to set him off, watch and learn.”
The second Englishman walked over and tapped the Scot on the shoulder.
“I hear your Alex Salmond talks out of his arse!”
“Oh, really, I didn’t know that, thank you.”
Shocked beyond belief, the English man went back to his mates. “You’re right, he’s unshakable!”
The third Englishman said, “No, no, no, I will really piss him off, you just watch.”
He walked over to the Scot, tapped him on the shoulder and said, “I hear your Alex Salmond is really English!”
“Yeah, that’s what your mates have been trying to tell me.”
Oil and Currency will I suspect be Lamont’s brief by her script writers. The fun will come if the Chair and Nicola can get her to ski off piste as it were…avalanches will abound. I’m sure she will be told to stick to the script even it makes her sound like she talking off topic nonsense. Whether she remains even tempered is another matter. I still have that vision of her scowling at the chap that wanted Labour to ditch Atos as a sponser.
@ronnie anderson says:
Anybody have any links to that Shettleston meeting of last week.
They said it had been recorded and will be uploaded later.
@cynicalhighlander, thanks pal if I dont keep track of these things I tend to miss them.
Ronnie
Here is the link to last night’s meeting.
http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/2791665
JoLa lego hair check, slidy een check, flappy seagull arms check, script check, – Nicola take her down!
I keep getting this message –
Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
Every body on here keeps mentioning Nth Sea with regards to OIL,
start mentioning the untapped Firth of Clyde, as the Rev has
said the Clyde basin, somebody posted a few month,s back that
they worked on a Land Rig in the 80s on F O Clyde, until the
MOD stepped in & shut them down.
The costs of drilling on land would be much less, we re not
mentioning the West Coast enough, lets put that into the mix more often.
@Bill C,
a pipeline was installed from Grangemouth to Hunterston to take the oil from the Clyde and other local fields.As far as I am aware it is still there, as is the oil.
Can anyone here tell me,through science how oil is preduced, because i belive it is all thery right now, YES that right scientist dont know how oil comes into existanse.
Fuck me Majesty if those fucking Scots peasants discover that there is massive untapped oil fields off their west coast they may cry for independence…
@Marcia 9.50, thanks Marcia am saving that fur, after the Jolo
dissection.
Duplicate comment detected
Likely as you are writing…
‘refr3sh pa9e’ (replace numbers with letters) to get around the caching thingy.
Just add a word or more, e.g.
‘refr3sh pa9e now Rev!’
As long as it’s not a duplicate…
Danny, 9:02 ;
They’re going up so quickly they don’t even have planning permission.
I see Mr Bateman is quoting data that might suggest that the IQ level for the average Scot is indeed now lower than at any time in the recent past. We might indeed be too stupid.
Was getting ‘duplicate comment’ when refreshing page so here goes.
I always wondered why Inverkip was where it was as well. When was that built? Likewise Pollphail. Which is somewhere you should visit before it’s demolished.
Just finish the BBC 2 program over the 1st WW.
To make a long story short, it looks like co-authored by the Mail, the Torygraph, the House of lords and the British Broadcast Corporation.
They think they have proved 1ww was not so bad after all, that the Germans were to blame for everything, Versailles had nothing to do with 2ww, it would had happen anyway and Commanders were well intentioned bunch of jolly old chaps.
Vomitive doesn’t even start to describe it.
We better put around a health warning.
Marcia – if you’ve previously used p@ge refresh to update, stick any other word after it and re-submit – you wont get any duplicate comment messages. Just keep changing the 3rd word every time you pge refresh.
O/T Just watching News at Ten and wondering if Kezia and her pals are still courting the Daily Mail in light of their hounding of Harriet Harman. Can’t help thinking if Harriet was reading the Daily Mail over the last couple of weeks she would have been enjoying the cybernats hounding. It is true, what goes around comes around.
Re the ‘refreshing script’ code duplication reversing the order into ‘script refreshing’ confuses the duplicabot and allows the update sometimes.
Well I just add numbers after the magic words. Never fails.
O/T,It seems that Rebbeca Brooks has taken Tony Blair,s
advice, ( she didn’t know phone hacking was illegal).
How the mighty think of the common people.
Anybody fancy a bit of shoplifting, I,ll pay for the Taxi,an remember if you get caught,Im no the agent provocateur.
Now they are going to put the squeeze on the civil service to stop it going “native”….
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26344766
Note two of the goals…
1) examine how the Civil Service Code will be enforced, and complaints of alleged breaches of the code examined;
2)scrutinise the leadership of the Civil Service in relation to the referendum on independence
I smell a witch-hunt…
Lamont BS Bingo cards at the ready. Ive already got ‘I’m a mum’ in the first sentence.
The long term viability of the North sea is not at all dependend on the broad shouldrrs of the UK government, as we would all agree. However it is not only dependent on the what the Scottish Gov can do either.
There is a large amount of Cost sharing for support services between the Norwegian and Scottish sectors. The economy of Scale is not with the UK, it is with pooling resources and sharing costs with Norway. This is already the case and is obviously mutually beneficial.
I am dismayed and annoyed that this important fact has not surfaced in the recent debate because it puts to bed the idea that we need need the UK to get the most out of the North Sea. Many people in the oil industry must be aware of this but are not stepping in to raise awareness, without taking sides.
Vincent
I saw that Max Hastings was doing the programme and decided to skip it. Hastings and Paxman. God knows what the Beeb thinks it is doing. Oh what a lovely war indeed.
On the back of my last post I just checked the membership of the select committee conducting the witch hunt of the civil service… 5 Tories, 5 Labour and one Lib Dem… and one very interesting name on there – our very own jock hater general… Priti Patel…
Oh yes I smell a large hairy rodent at work here…..
Just started watching Nicola and Jo La
Could be interesting hopefully we have no bias
We know they stole from us in the past, don’t let them steel our future. I see no problem in getting negative in the debate but I’d wait until it really heats up and the positive message has been put out there. Surely a positive and negative campaign should win over just a negative one. Too much nicey nicey won’t wash with people but we need to see some passion. They’ll mock us forever after a no vote if all we did was try to be nice. It could be our weakness in Heinz sight.
I like the concept of Heinz sight… comes in 54 varieties too 🙂
“In the real world.”
STV debate… Lamont lashing out with projectile diahorea… not nice
I love Johann’s logic – promoting world peace by renewing nuclear weapons of mass destruction… WTF!!!!
Krackerman – shurely 57 🙂
I thought Johann was against WMD. Does she have a single principle that she will not sacrifice?
“We are the party of devolution.” 😀 😀
Just started watching the Scotland Tonight debate. Do you get awarded Debater of the Year for repeating ‘We must have a rational debate’ over and over again?
TJenny – 57!! holy cow that’s more brain-cells than Johann has to rub together!!!
‘Ed Milliband cares about Scotland as much as I do’- Im sure he does, and we know how much you care about Scotland Johan 🙂
Well all i can say is well done to the people of Scotland,i wonder how many billions the okuk mob have spent? i see the USA has spent 5billion to overthrow the Ukraining goverment the wind is a changing no more will we allow Facist police states to ride roughshot over their population.
Sadly, listening to Johann is like dragging cheese graters over your ears. She could be spot on correct and it would still painful. The fact that she is not spot on just makes it excruciating.
She’s following Sarwar’s technique
I think we should make sure the Scottish crown estate comes back to Scotland and if Lizzy wants to lay claim to it all she has to do is take a DNA test to make sure she is 50% Scottish oh and no other noble(hahaha) family in Scotland can lay claim to it as for over the past 400 years it has been robbed by westminster and the Royals and they did fekk all about it.
Lamonts a joke now
No answers so far,just attacks,answers please.
Jo Lo actually said ” are you seriously suggesting that welfare should be predicated on how long people live”…
Well err.. YES YOU DIVVY C*W!
But Johann, people ARE dying younger here..theres nothing “ludicrous” about owning up to that fact…PLEASE ANSWER AT JUST ONE QUESTION AT LEAST, CMON…
Poor Johann, all she has is anger. No intellect, no argument, no discourse just “I dinnae agree”
Lamont has been awful, truly dire.
Lamont.sturgeon
mediator has lost control
Both speaking at one time
DISASTER
To be fair to Johann the dead can vote so they presumably can also claim benefits.
Yea and i dont get the SNP will disband if Scotland gets independance LOL NO NO NO they will want to make sure an independant Scotland isent left in the hands of ("Tractor" - Ed)s WELL what other majour party in Scotland will be able to compete with liebour the greens? solidarity? socialists? So its very obvious the plants in the TV debate crowds that go on about the SNP mandate being independance when they get it they should just FUCK OFF after that,well is that not like a boxer whos dream it is to hold a world title belt he has the fight of his life against the reigning champ and wins,so what dose he do next retire or defend his newly won title?
Ye’ve been telt no – PMSL
Can’t get the debate in Frankfurt – it is a debate isn’t it? 😉
God this is painful. I’m liking Nicola, but Stairheid just comes across like an angry bog cleaner who doesn’t realise just how painfully thick she is. And I think she’s very close to lamping Nicola.
Just watched Lamont mostly using the ‘Sarwar Defence’ during Nicola Sturgeons turn at asking questions on Scotland Tonight. We’ll see how Nicola does next.
Johann must have practiced with that script for a while in front of the mirror… what a joke….
OMG a darkened room beckons after that stairheid geid me a sair heid.
🙁
I thought Anas was awful but old Stair Heid’s not for debating any one either.
p@ge refresh
SO she isn’t telling us anything until MArch. Can’t wait.
I must admit i was a bit of a dunce in school,Westminster must be gutted that all the fluride and mercury they have poisened my body with hasent destroyed my brain as well,well thats what fluride and mercury do scientifically proven. Then theirs the planes that spray us with chemecals from before dawn till dusk.i just wonder how much of YOUR MONIES have they spent trying to make your health worse?
Need new rules debate
Only one can speak at time,then reply
so awfull,embarrassing
How does someone with so little talent become leader of a party? That was just white noise.
The debate was a complete farce. The mediator really should have been more assertive. Lamont was truly awful. Her shipyard jobs (Govan) question backfired spectacularly. Undecided viewers will be none the wiser.
I am really agahst at the current state of play with this debate… Nicola… BOX CLEVER !!!!!
Ah, that explains why Johann is doing a debate in Feb – before their half-baked ideas come out in March and so she has nothing to defend from scrutiny.
Probably won’t see her now till October.
I think electrodes need to be introduced!
Where,s the techo dept with they vid,s, Help me Rona, help, Help,
me Rona.
Agree with bookie from hell. Unworkable format, embarrassing result. This sort of thing will turn everyone off.
The debate was shit – but I dam know for sure who I’d want fighting my corner anyday and it aint JoLa – NS made her run her time down by going over the shipyard issue ( like a dog with a bone ) Reckon JoLa had another 5-6 questions and had no chance of asking them. Clever NS
Dearie me what a rabble, I hope that’s the last of those…They should get a panel of 6 undecideds asking questions from both sides in an orderly fashion, this talking over each other nonsense is just an affront to the informed debate we should be having…
That did not take the debate much, if any, further forward.
Misteralz, all the cleaners I know are really nice cheery people who do the same tedious job day after day and then have to do it again because people mess up their work every single time, and they always have a smile.
Johann, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to have the muscles to smile with.
O/T I’m in warrington wathing this programme on my iphone and notice that the Up/Down buttons are back. Are the air raid sirens off now ?
That’s an hoor I’ll never get back..Holy Fuck STV really need to look at the format of this as it wiz just a stairheed rammy..
If you vote for JLo and NO, you quite simply don’t even deserve to be in a foodbank queue.
Morag,
Sorry, yes, that’s pretty much my experience too. I just know it would make me dour…
@ Marcia , now you know why I needed a back up plan Thanks.
The debate was crap. But if I was a Don’t know I think I’d be having doubts about JoLa as leader in a Scottish parliament and would now be leaning towards Yes.
I feel sick after watching that sh*t. Debate? I see no debate!
My impression of the debate is that Johann is a one woman DDOS attack.
Would be highly appreciated if any of you fine people can poimt me to a source(maybe youtube) where i can watch Sturgeon and Lamont debate, im not in the country so Iplayr isnt an option.
Thanks.
If BAE are closing Clyde ship building, the workforce will know all about it right now. So who did Stair Heid think she was kidding? oh right the undecideds.
We need a better format for future debates to let the Yes voice be heard.
O/T – Rev for the fundraiser why doesn’t everyone offer 1 months bbc license fee – stop the dd for that month and tell them we’re just balancing up the debate 🙂
This probably sets back the argument for advocating more women in politics.( I am all for it, but wtf was that all about ? ) Not a great advert…Rhona lost control and Johann really needs to wonder if politics is her best career path ? As for Nicola….slow down…don’t take the bait ! 🙂
It seems like i was right to give it the bums-swerve.These TV debates are excruciating to watch.
@Alan MacD
You really don’t want to watch it unless you want your whole brain toasted inside your skull, truly terrible affront to us all.
@Alan MacD – I can provide a picture of paint drying instead – more entertaining and thought provoking 🙂
@The Rough Bounds,
Was at a Yes meeting in Coatbridge tonight, well attended and crowd very enthusiastic for yes, all ages represented and speakers John Swinney and Dennis Canavan gave positive answers to all the questions raised. A very well organised event. Made all that leafleting and paper delivering worthwhile. Onwards and upwards.
P@ge refresh
I was watching property porn on 4 More. Wings over Scotland. Watching car-crash TV so you don’t have to.
I liked how they were miniaturised into little boxes whilst the guys disected the shouting.
It meant that Jlo couldn’t run off for the poo she so obviously required from the off.
If you’d never seen her before you’d phone an ambulance reporting a stroke victim.
More 4, even.
JoLa’s reaction to retirement age reminded me of Godfrey Bloom reacting to Michael Crick pointing out the all white ukip leaflet.
Did anybody else notice Jo getting red around the neck? I thought she might react like a dilophosaurus, like a scene from Jurassic Park!
@rab_the_doubter
LOL
@ alan McD
Try www. tvcatchup.com and configure your location for Glasgow. I am in Manchester area tonight and watched this ‘noise’ on my iphone.
If you have ip issue, try using an ip blocker such as hide my ass ( yep, that’s what it’s called ) or some other similar program
twitter
Lamont and Sturgeon both express regret at taking debate style advice from Shirley Bassey. #scotnight #indyref
LOL
Hey ken should have said HMA Pro that’s what it’s called 🙂
A right auld rammy but Nicola totally dominated the proceedings whilst JoLa obfuscated, prevaricated and basically wasted time failing to answer any questions whilst being cross-examined.
Score: Nicola 4 – 0
BT has one tactic – stop the real issues being heard. Lessons need to be learned. No more of this shit format.
Just saw a mini-festival of Union Jackery on STV news too. Curlers describing 10 Downing Street as ‘iconic’.
We have a major task on our hands to defeat media-sanctioned ignorance.
Well, Johan versus Nicola didn’t get us very far tonight. I think STV will need to change the protocols because Lamont just adopted the Anas Sarwar tactic of mumbling her way through everything. On the night, neutral observers would give the win to Nicola because she had more authority than Lamont. Ponsonby and the other fellow said as much.But in the cold light of day Nicola’s arguments over democracy are unarguable. Lamont had no defence over Trident, the bedroom tax and having to put up with Tory governments we didn’t vote for.
Now onto the Labour Spring Conference to see whether Lamont’s world falls apart.
Lamont was a disgrace on tonight’s debate, and never answered a question nor listened to an answer to her questions. Absolutely pathetic as was the chairing of the debate. Well done Nicola, it can’t be easy listening to the shite that was venomously spewing out of Liemont!
@rab_the_doubter
Yeah, best laugh of the night, I thought – “Ed cares as much about Scotland as I do” Sometimes the jokes just write themselves.
@thepnr
I stand corrected sir, but I was born in Drumchapel so..WYSIWYG 🙂
So disappointed a friend at work who is a DK said she would be watching the debate, how would this have helped. I know it isn’t Nicola’s fault but the BT strategy of turn people off just might have won tonight. I hope not.
Didn’t like Ponsonby saying that Nicola asked a question and immediately interrupted joLo when she started talking . Lamont didn’t answer one question !
What was Rhona there for ? She could have intervened .
It was never going to be a debate where anyone learned anything from Lamont !
She is utterly abysmal !
mediator having a sex change to piers morgan
They shouldn’t face each other like this. Rhona should be seated and they should be stood at lecterns well apart and left to answer questions from each other but they must talk to Rhona or us in fact. Any interrupts and they are given formal warnings. Its how the USA Presidential election debates are done on tv and it has to be done here. But it wont be as it favours proper debate that informs and we know unionism wont let that happen.
Kendo;
Ive just checked that website out, can u post me a link to the direct stream if possible.
It would be highly appreciated.
I did not enjoy the debate as Lamont did not answer a question and had the principles of a miss World contestant talking about world peace but keeping the trident missiles. Nicola should have expected her doing a Anas Sarwar and missed an opportunity.
David Murdoch describing being at no 10 whilst giggling like a wee lassie who’d just met Justin Beieber.
Claiming he’s going to do it again in 4 years.
Not in that tracksuit Davie. Your country will no longer exist then.
Scotland may have forgiven you by then.
@kendomacaroonbar -Inverkanny Dr till I was about 5
Not surprised by the standard of debate. Johann does this every week. Angry sound bites that if you go back and look at them don’t stack up.
Picking over the bones over things, like not understanding what actuarial estimates are, will entertain us but neutrals will have just heard a shouty old woman and probably hit the off button. Job done as far as Better Together are concerned. They know that real debates don’t go well for them.
We are in Border Telly land down in Dumfriesshire. Earlier the schedule said Champions League 10.35, then at 10.30 the Sturgeon /Lamont debate came on… Not sure what is going or if other viewers here got to see it, it was definitely channel 103 and there was a wee border TV logo in the top left of the screen.
@ Alan McD
Alan,
http://www.tvcatchup will give you access to a variety of UK channels, however, for specific regional channels such as STV Scotland you need to download the app from itunes. Once loaded, you can configure to specific geographic locations. If you are outwith the UK IP area you may need to mask your IP with the HMA ( as the very nice thenps stated earlier ) Hope this helps… yours aye Kendo
If you had never hear of Scotland and watched this with the sound off you’d have still given the win to Nicola as a result of the sheer anger, negativity, panic and finger pointing of Jlo.
I have to admit I was a bit put out that there was no arm side flap, “what don’t you understand” action tonight.
the pnr I mean… damn you Peroni Nastro Azzurro on expenses 🙁
Pretty poor debate, but most of that was down to JoLa not answering any questions and mumbling through her dentures. The only time there was total silence was for the 5 seconds after Nicola said ‘I joined CND before I joined the SNP’. JoLa just stared like a really ugly confused rabbit caught in the headlights…brilliant 🙂
So what did we learn from the Lamont v Sturgeon debate?
First it wasn’t a debate
Secondly its obvious that Lamont was briefed to just wreck the debate by talking over every answer so you could not make out what was being said. Its a classic ploy when your debater is clueless and has no answers, as Lamont clearly had no answers.
Thirdly Lamont gets flushed around her neck when lying
Fourthly according to Lamont Scots are not genetically programmed to make political decisions. She may not have been aware that she said that and may have been part of her breifing
@twenty 14 Bayfield avenue…near invercanny.. They flattened it. Moved to Yoker then decanted to Knightswood, now Helesnsburgh.
It was like Westminster PMQ, shouting over each other to assert dominance. They should use the SG system of one Mic on at a time with an allotted time to q and a.
I was just thinking…from the point of view of a Labour MP, tonight was about Johann Lamont fighting for her MPs to keep their jobs. If my job were under threat and my boss fought for me as poorly as Johann did tonight, I’d be pretty upset with her. Think she should watch her back – the knives will be out for her any time now. It must be obvious to them that if it’s left to her, they can wave goodbye to their Westminster careers.
Lamont came to do a Sarwar style performance and succeeded. Yes will have to learn how to deal more effectively with these disruptive tactics in the last 6 months or so of the campaign. I just saw Rev Stu’s tweet about Lamont hating Sturgeon. Fact is she hates Salmond just as much, if not more. Lamont is only interested in preserving SLAB’s power base, clearly nothing else matters to her. Whether that be getting rid of nuclear weapons, combating poverty, and generally improving Scotland as a place.
@ Kendomacaroonbar
used to play on the big hill at the side. Moved to the Briggs, travelled a bit and now in Robroyston. We met at the march just before it kicked off
I’m being asked/told to get to bed. I am simply going to do a I’m told as I’m not programmed to make decisions for myself.
Night all.
@Twenty14
The bluebell woods ? MacLellans shop ? I remember it well.. I left there when I was a similar age to you. I have fond memories of these days
Jo-anas might as well have put a set of headphones on and said Lalala for 30 mins. Can’t believe Ponsonby, more or less, blamed Nicola for that rammy! He’s a slimy character playing both sides jockeying for future position, we all know that. Unfortunately Jo-anas achieved what she set out to do – wreck the debate and drag Nicola down with her. Painful to watch.
I know I am biased here,but I think Nicola Sturgeon, having won the other times she has debated, did well.Johann Lamont came for a draw.
The MSM/BT are quite happy with what transpired tonight. Stifling, wrecking, spoiling, suffocating suits their purposes fine. But if we get the word of mouth message out we win. Tonight a colleague who was a No knows about the Norwegian oil fund for the first time. It makes a huge difference.
Yes campaign might have to think about putting up Patrick Harvey or Dennis Canavan to debate with SLAB unionists like Sarwar and Lamont. The latter two deliberately wrecked the debates with Sturgeon. They bring in their hatred of the SNP to kill the debate.
Especially loved the bit when Johann Lamont said ‘Scots aren’t genetically programmed to make political decisions’. Probably true in her case, admittedly.
That wasn’t a debate. Rona really should have been far more assertive although having said that I don’t think it would’ve made much difference. Jola’s shipbuilding question was an obvious own goal, I mean seriously, conflating yes with loss of shipbuilding when Govan has already been told it’s closing under Westminster! Does she really think we are thick and uninformed? Clearly…to answer my own question…she does!
Luckily I’m decidedly Yes.
@Training Day
“The MSM/BT are quite happy with what transpired tonight. Stifling, wrecking, spoiling, suffocating suits their purposes fine.”
Correct. We need to get things done below their radar, which for the most part is the TV studios. The No campaign is almost invincible away from the newspapers, TV stations, and Westminster/Holyrood (the latter to a lesser extent).
@Ian Mackay – watched the debate but missed that comment -The REV should put this section up for all to see. Recorded it – anyone know what time in it was said ?
Portavadie on the opposite side of loch fyne where i grew up was built to make oil rigs but it never did build any i think. They built a village to house all the workers too. It’s a stones throw away pretty much from the Firth of Clyde.
could it be that there lays some very dark secrets still regarding the amount of oil around our shores?
Didn’t record it. But its not far into the debate.
I can’t believe she said that. It needs to go viral on YouTube if she did. Preferably on a repeating loop.
Johann, have you just explained why Gordon Brown was so dire as PM?
At least 40 years of oil remaining is a long time to build up replacement industries and a wealth fund.
Scotland has SIX times as much territory offshore than onshore, so I am sure it can be put to good use, with huge wind and wave energy potential.
It would be a nice independence bribe to promise a nationalised energy company subsidising energy bills here.
Half the value in windfarms is getting the planning permission in the first place.
The Scottish Government could simply give permission to itself to build huge offshore windfarms.
We might also say that if it is running out(the oil) then the quicker a Scots Government gains control of it the better. That bit thats left goes a longer between 5.3m people than 65m people. I think this because,when it runs out as part of uk,Scotland will get nothing from the uk.
Comedy Gold :-
https://twitter.com/A2Mac/status/438434446602420224/photo/1
lol at the comedy gold,we should have a comedy gold repository.dumb and dumber aka the twa tories.
Watched a recording of this “debate”
Had in imbibement of 20 yo Caol Ilsa and so was entertained.
Nicola was superb. Fought fire with fire. shout v shout.
Johan lost it when she wagged the finger. What do they teach at teacher training?
If you can you do. if you can’t you teach. If you can’t teach you teach teachers.
Finally, No undecided voters watch this crap. It is for anoraks.
The fight shall be won face to face. On the streets, on the doorsteps and in the pubs.
There shall be a Scotland, sovereign and free! Albeit an Hanseatic Scotland. First amongst equals.
Best go do bed.
Hey Rev, we demand a full transcipt of the Nicola vs that ‘munchin wumin thing’ debate on Scotland Tonight 🙂
I attended an oil conference in Aberdeen last year titled ” The next 50 years” – not the final 50 years the NEXT 50.
Oil companies work around the world under a variety of deals. Sometimes the only makes a fixed 2 dollars a barrel – they still make a profit.
What does the North Sea have that beats most investment opportunities – stability, a safe place to do business.
Having sat through gate criteria reviews and seen reserve opportunities waiting for development I think we would be nuts to miss the future success of an independent Scotland.
Renewables will be up and running long before the oil runs out. It will be worth several times the current annual income for oil and it will last forever.
You have one chance. Chose hope over fear.
Comment is already viral on social media. Not checked but apparently 11 mins in on the debate on STV player.
for those who missed the debate–heres the highlights
@mutley 12:15
I really hope you meant to say invisible 😉
‘Scots aren’t genetically programmed to make political decisions’? Really?
Top rate cringe there from the ‘Debater of the Year’.
You’ve got to wonder how any SLabour supporter could continue to back a party who’s branch leader thinks of them as incapable.
Foe those us us outwith the UK Peter Curran has it up on his site.
Well, I’ve toddled round a few sites this morning already and the consensus on last night’s debate was carnage. A farce, a shouting match, a mess, a rammy. Poorly chaired with little or no format, spoiling tactics in use by Lamont and plenty of the usual tribal pooh on show we’re so familiar with from FMQs. I missed it not having the reception where I live, but it gives you a chance to sit back sometimes and get a feel from others reactions.
Would I be wrong in saying that Ms Lamont has now become the most unelectable prospective governmental leader in history? I mean, from reactions I’ve read through to date, I don’t think a single question was answered. Plenty of stairheid screeching and accusation and very little reasoned question and answer.
Maybe just me but I think on such a showing, Ms Lamont may have done us a favour. Picture if you will Ms Lamont greeting foreign heads of state, giving a Hugo Young lecture or representing Scotland in overseas negotiations attempting to win vital business for Scottish workers.
Whilst it sounds as though I didn’t miss much, I think Lamont just missed a lot more. The chance to make any kind of case for retaining the union. Even if only a barely plausible lie, the lady apparently couldn’t resist the temptation to reduce debate to the level of a pub brawl.
Scotland’s choice, vote no and allow this level of politician control over your lives and the future of your children.
creag an tuirc, oh no, un-demand it! We need the Rev in good mental shape for the next 7 months, trying to untangle that verbal demolition derby would finish anyone off! 🙂
O/T
Can anyone help. On my Gmail account I’m getting an RETR command error, can’t receive my emails, any suggestions?
Lamont achieved everything she set out to achieve. She prevented a debate from taking place, so the Scottish people will have learned nothing from last night. She didn’t let NS really get going, and forced her to shout to be heard. So to any unbiased viewer one must have looked as bad as the other.
From Labour’s point of view a very successful evening.
Well, that was a complete waste of time. Wife not too happy either at having being kept up until 11.30 last night.
Yep, Nicola won, but it was a poor victory. Lamont just shrieked verbal diarrhoea whenever she could. She talked over Nicola again, and again, but I have to admit, Nicola didn’t do too great either. She got a couple of good blows in on the shipyards, Trident and extra powers.
One thing I did notice, Lamont seemed to stare downwards or look up. She rarely looked at Nicola when she answered. She would steal the odd glance, but that was it. It was almost as if she was trying to recite from memory. Some of the answers made no sense! When Nicola either asked, or tried to answer, Lamont would immediately talk over her and spout nonsense. It was completely embarrassing.
As folk here have said, it might as well have been Sarwar standing there.
But lets get one thing straight. Lamont never answered one question, nor did she give us any hint of what would happen to Scotland if we voted ‘No’ (even though we all know fine well, what will happen!)
If this is the level of debate we are going to get from so-called ‘top’ Labour pundits, then they can GTF. SLAB have an agenda; don’t talk about the referendum; plain and simple. Just create white noise. We have seen this two or three times now as to how Scottish Labour will approach any debate on Independence. They will just turn it into a farce of shrieking, snarling and talking inane drivel.
I think we need to keep it to the big guns now. Bring on the likes of Darling, Salmond, Sturgeon, Jenkins, Carmichael, Canavan and Cameron. Keep the half-wits off TV!
The local Labour mealy-mouths might be able to fool their own constituents, but it isn’t going to wash with the vast majority of Scotland. That was embarrassing last night. Let’s not have that again.
And STV should have done a better job of handling it. If this is their version of top political debating then I’ve seen Primary 7’s hold better debates. That was appalling from STV. I was really disappointed in Rona last night. She should have come down like a ton of bricks when it began to turn into a rammie. At points, it was like two fishwives screeching at each other.
Next time …the big guns …and only the big guns.
off to work now – hoping we still have mountains when I get home as everything else is running oot at a rapid rate
“f oil would have made Scotland “Embarrassingly Wealthy” (McCrone Report) back then, then why is it a burden now.”
Do you have any idea how hard it is to get change from a million pound note at a corner shop?
I attended an oil conference in Aberdeen last year titled ” The next 50 years” – not the final 50 years the NEXT 50.
You’ll mean this.
http://www.offshore-europe.co.uk/Media-Centre/Press-Releases1/The-Next-50-Years/
SPE Offshore Europe 2013 – The Next 50 Years
‘The Next 50 Years’ will be the theme for the forthcoming SPE Offshore Europe conference to be held at the Aberdeen Exhibition and Conference Centre from 3-6 September 2013.
The selected theme represents the continuing success story for the UK oil and gas industry both in terms of future production and a strong supply chain. Senior representatives from the global industry, UK and international governments and academia will come together to lead the debates during the four-day conference.
Malcolm Webb, Chairman for SPE Offshore Europe 2013 and Chief Executive of industry trade association Oil & Gas UK, said: “The conference will be forward looking, extending the far too short a time frame frequently expressed around the UK offshore oil and gas industry’s potential future.
“There are many decades of life left in the region. We are extending the producing life of many existing fields and numerous new developments will continue to come on stream in the future. We also have a magnificent supply chain operating both in the UK province and internationally. A huge selection of these goods and services will be on display in the largest exhibition of the show’s history…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBH55ZeZU4w “We’re not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions” so vote NO must be the creepiest thing anyone has ever said about Scotland.
Still no full tables from the ICM poll for the Scotsman.
Could mean there was more in it than so far released, e.g. Holyrood VI or Euro VI.
Agree the debate last night would only turn off any undecided voters and that suits the No Scotland campaign.
Stronger referee required to ensure speakers do not talk over each other.
After the blatant political intervention by the Treasury chief who attacked the Scottish government’s spending priorities had to laugh at MPs wanting to investigate head of Scottish Civil Service being too political.
And Daily Mail back to their smearing best this morning.
@ Albalha
Try here, it’s all gobbledygook to me, I get my nephew to sort stuff like that out!
https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/V1EBgqCDIx8
Problems refreshing again.
Oh jeez heed, that’s brilliant.
In living colour, according to Lamont we’re simply not good enough.
This person must never be allowed near sharp objects or future public office.
Nicola did the right thing by not backing off from Lamonts ‘Sarwar’ style of debating, instead she went right into her face giving better than she was recieving and that was proberly the only thing to do, even if it did not improve the debate.
Lamont appeared to use the thats a “political decision” as an excuse not to answer questions in the first half of the debate, but surely the political decision is how you get an answer, very strange.
She then went back to her infamous system of repeating her question continusly regardless of the answer she had recieved (remember her New Forth Road Bridge)FM’s question time debacle, just the same.
Her attempt to bring ship building into the debate as something against independence was a massive mistake, you would have to be incredibly stupid not to realise that the plans to possibly close one of the yards had been major headlines in the last two weeks. A very very dumb move.
And something that will come back to haunt her for a long time is of course “Scots aren’t genetically programed to make political decisions ?”. It takes a special type of person (idiot) to turn round and insult the whole of your own country on TV, well she certainly managed to do that.
A Nicola win, easy peasy.
Offshore Europe has a theme? And there was me thinking it was just a biannual half day out of the office to restock my stationery! 🙂
That debate set me back months, nay years. For Mistress heraldnomore upped and left the room in disgust and hasn’t spoken since. And they wonder why they can’t engage with wimmen voters. Truly awful.
The suggestion above of one mic on and one off might just work, but poor Rona was utterly helpless and allowed it all to happen. She should have been yelling ‘shut the f*c% up’ if she couldn’t switch one of them off.
Anyway all through it I was minded of Van Helsing; JoLa must be the doppelganger, but with none of the charm of Count Dracul. Of leadership and statesmanship there was not one sign. Bring back Elmer, I almost thought.
And back in the real world I’m encouraged by the words of the CofS this morning, which doesn’t happen often. It is indeed all about shaping our future society, rather than who’s a pound or 500 better or worse off.
But JoLa Van Helsing – utter despair. Lock her in a room with her deputy and switch off the lights, and the mics.
@CLB
Thanks, will keep trying the various options!
I wonder if it would be possible to do a short vid of Lamont’s greatest hits? Y’know string together sections of the ‘sumthin’ fur nuthin’ speech, the car crash interview on income tax, last night’s cringeworthy ‘ Scots aren’t genetically programed to make political decisions’ howler, that kind of thing. Just to remind people what the honourable leader of the opposition actually thinks of the Scottish electorate.
To be fair I don’t think its just Ms Lamont who views the electorate in this fashion. To produce that mindset you need a political culture riddled with that kind of cringe.
Truly pitiful.
The clip above suggests to me that Johann Lamont not only suffers from chronic cringe, but she is deliberately trying to pass it on to the viewers, much like an STD.
Is there not grounds for such a statement, which chalenges the very genetic material of Scots, to be viewed as the epitome of racism. Should Police Scotland not perhaps review her comment?
Ms. Sturgeon might have won the pub fight, but who comes out of any pub fight with any sense of grace or dignity?
Lamont revealed again why she should be limited to handing out dobber pens at the bingo. She’s not capable of commanding anything. Comes across as thick as the glue holding up her false teeth which curiously seemed to be working loose as the pub fight developed.
And while Lamont failed to answer anything or present a reasoned defence of Trident for example, Ms. Sturgeon’s aggressive, solicitor style tactics, which worked previously on Carmichael, might have turned away a lot of undecided women.
Then again, the host was as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
Sometimes we just have to be patient. Although Lamont achieved what she set out to achieve by stifling any adult debate, there will come a point when the MSM cannot protect Labour any further (and Rona’s inept chairing was just as effective a protection for Lamont as it would have been if she had asked the latter no serious questions).
Once Lamont is exposed to real people in the heat of the campaign proper – when people are fully engaged – she will be exposed for the dissembling chancer she most certainly is.
I think Nicola knew what Johann would do.
So she handled it probably the only way way possible, faced with the Anas technique.
Although the whole thing was not a good advert for sensible debate, in the end I think it was very positive for YES.
Nicola continued the no-blinking on Plan A.
At the end of her questioning Nicola got to summarise Johann’s non-position on the issues.
Johann scored an own-goal on shipbuilding.
Johann utterly failed to stop Nicola hijacking Johann’s turn for the questions.
Anybody watching who is normally genetically programmed will have been thinking:
Vote NO – Get Johan, and get whatever Johann won’t or can’t tell me about. Not good.
Not sure if anyone noticed how much Lamont was flushed around her neck.
For my sins I ran an office, in which I had to interview staff, on of my (many) briefing notes sent to me by HR, was that some women , under pressure or nervous or potentially making something up will get a reddish flush on their neck and upper chest area.
Can only assume that Lamont had become nervous or knew full well she was just making it up, especially around the point regarding what Labour had in mind if there was a No vote. If you have a clip, play back and look at not just the verbal responses from Lamont, but her body language and how her neck flushes more when she is knowingly on shaky ground
That ‘genetically programmed’ quote needs major circulation. Being racist is bad enough, but being racist against your own folk is Uncle Tam-ism at its worst.
Bit late in the thread, so I’ll probably have to do this again.
YES Springburn are desperate to get a hold of some LFI leaflets, so that we can post them with the YES newspapers.
We’ve tried contacting them, but with no luck. So this is a Wings appeal. If anyone can help and it’s in the Greater Glasgow area, I can come and collect.
Cheers.
P.S. Ian B, we would use SSP leaflets as well.
from JLT:
And STV should have done a better job of handling it. If this is their version of top political debating then I’ve seen Primary 7?s hold better debates. That was appalling from STV.
Exactly. I think the only way to allow a debate like this and make it able to be heard is to have the microphones controlled by the chair. Drastic, but effective!
I’m also suspicious now of STV’s motives. Clearly after Sarwar their format didn’t work, so why persist with it? Rhona would have been as well having the night off for all the good she did. The panel, Ponsonby and the other one seemed to me to be very pleased with the way things turned out.
The Hosie v Robertson debate pointed the way as to how these debates should be done. Each side presents their case without interruption, then the audience votes afterwards. We know how that turned out though, with a large swing to Yes.
Clearly, Labour don’t have anyone capable of conducting a debate, so destroy, destroy, destroy. Try to make the other side look as bad as yours. That mess last night must have turned a lot of people off the whole referendum discussion.
The intention of the unionists is to prevent the people of Scotland from learning about the benefits of independence. Thank God for Wings and all the other like minded sites.
Tamson
I have only watched the clip above, so thanks for confirming my suspicions. Why would anyone hold their fellow Scots in such low regard? Or perhaps JoLa, struggling to keep her head above water, simply repeated something she has instructed on in private by London Head Office?
I’m thinking about the people suggesting we start seeing Patrick Harvey and Dennis Canavan put up for the debates. While very good speakers and great advocates for the Independence cause, sadly I don’t think its on a “Can you just put someone forward” basis.
I suspect STV and alike state their approvable participants, I would like to be proved wrong in my suspicions of course but I reckon people like Patrick and Dennis arent deemed wanted by the people in the control booth.
There will be an interesting point where the true debating Ace in the hole Alex needs to be unleashed, against someone. Better Together know they cant put up Cameron and its looking like Mayweather vs Pacquiao all over again and the longer it takes, the less impact is possible from the star man.
This leaves YES with a decision, Do you keep your best striker on the bench as you think you can win on penalties or do you go for it regardless of looking like youre giving in to the other teams game plan?
Too many sports references but I hope you get my point. Interesting times ahesd.
Fekin Ddos
Wow you guys are good.
2 mins after posting got an e-mail from LFI saying leaflets are coming soon.
Jeez it’s like the fecking twilight zone.
Thanks anyway.
P.S. Ian B still looking at you. Smiley face thing, that I don’t know how to do.
Thats it just fund oot ma problem, ( am no genetically programmed to make political decisions ) , thanks JoLo, I,ll
stop buying they PRIMARK jean,s, an so should you.
ronnie, I don’t think I’m genetically programmed to watch any more of these useless STV debates. I’m sure I’m not the only one.
@rab_the_doubter
My impression of the debate is that Johann is a one woman DDOS attack
Brilliant!
I watched the rerun on TA Moridura. Sad to say that although the overall “debate” was chronic, I don;t think that Nicola had the right tactics. She did come over as interrupting too much (I understand why) and she could easily be perceived by the more casual/undecided viewer as “They’re all the same”. Which for BT would be some kind of victory.
She should have expected this approach by Lamont after the Sarwar debacle, and a more “give enough rope” tactic may have been better option.
But, we are still six months out, so in the long game probably no significant damage, but I feel an opportunity missed.
I THINK Johann Lamont meant to say Scots don’t think about independence as a political concept
why then?
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Thomas Jefferson (founding father Declaration of Independence,then on to become 3rd president)
Jefferson was himself very well-read, with many of the tracts and papers he had absorbed influencing the drafting of the declaration. His education was further broadened when he studied law at William and Mary, one of America’s oldest colleges.
There he was taught by William Small, a Scottish Professor of mathematics and philosophy. Jefferson wrote later that Small was “as a father” to him and certainly shared with him the ideas of the Scottish Enlightenment as well as the Scottish ideals of freedom and equality.
However, Jefferson was not the only man of influence with a Scottish past involved in the declaration. James Wilson, from a farming family in Fife, was hugely influential in building America. He was one of only six to sign both the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.?
Suggestion to Louise White on morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk
Do you agree that, according to Johann Lamont that Scots are genetically incapable of making political decisions. I mean, she is talking about dugs this morning and clearly needs
suggestions
@ CameronB
Johann Lamont.
STD.
You ruined my breakfast.
So, no surprises, Labour’s Johan Lamont did what everybody expected. Shout and bluster, but NO cohesive arguments about why the union is good. Fabrications and untruths are the everyday stuff of the British Labour party. Kind of makes the Herald look silly now for naming her ‘debater of the year’. A bad joke.
If Johan Lamont’s comment that ‘Scots aren’t genetically programmed to make political decisions’, is correct, then it is pretty straightforward racist.
Meanwhile, over on the wings twitter account, I’ve just noticed some of the obscene and irrational arguments coming from the anti independence unionistas. They make very unconvincing and irrational arguments like these;
“why do people want to side with alex salmond, he is a cunt that is going to kill us all and take everything we have, realise this, please!”
Or even more surreal;
“he is the fat Hitler of our time. Lies lies and more lies.”
topped only by;
“Hitler brainwashed Germany – whats Salmond/SNP doing to Scots?”
Charming people, some of these anti independence unionists. Meanwhile, back in the real world, we’re ALL still waiting to hear the oft fabled ‘positive case for the union’.
@Tony Little
Tony, I don’t completely agree. Of course it wasn’t ideal, but I don’t think Sturgeon could be painted the same as Lamont.
Sturgeon was coherent, confident, good facial expression, articulate, answered the questions, logical … all the things that Lamont wasn’t.
Not easy to listen to but overall it was set-up deliberately as a cat fight by STV and they got what they wanted.
I think Lamont will be licking her wounds today and interested parties (certain unionists and Labour party members) will be watching the debate and saying WTF?
refresh p@ge
Conan_the_Librarian
Sorry about that. 🙂
There will never ever be a reasonable debate on Scottish Independence, because its an argument with only one side.
Its like a one legged man in an ass kicking competition. There IS no case for the union.
Its like arguing the case for syphilis against penicillin, when the syphilis has begun to rot your brain.
Imagine the case against penicillin
—————————–
It is going to run out
Who is going to inject you?
You are too wee, stupid and poor to use penicillin.
We have shared syphilis for 300 years, why change
They won’t let you into the EU an NATO if you’re clear of syphilis
Best we look after your penicillin and give you a little when we think you need it to stay alive
If you take penicillin its going to affect your health, wealth, happiness and you will come back begging for the old disease again.
If you say NO to penicillin, we cannot tell you what we are going to do to cure you
We think jam tomorrow might have a placebo effect
Now lets see anyone debate that successfully.
On the Nicola/Johann debate, I did a search and found this section of it:
http://news.stv.tv/politics/265442-scotland-tonight-nicola-sturgeon-and-johann-lamont-clash-in-debate/
Based on this, I thought Johann was actually very good and it’s childish to dismiss her. She came across as extremely calm as collected, whereas Nicola interrupted her a lot, talked fast, and sounded defensive at points.
On currency, Nicola repeatedly said that the fiscal commission had already outlined other options but didn’t say what those options were – what’s the tactical thinking behind that? Surely anyone can just go read the report to find plan B? Johann also had a very good point about just assuming that Osborne and Balls were lying.
On Europe, Rona tried to get Nicola to choose between ‘automatic membership’ and ‘having to apply’, and Nicola mentioned treaty amendments but didn’t actually say what the negotiations would involve and why this was different from ‘applying’.
Johann was poor on the substance of some points as well – she talked around Trident for a long time because she couldn’t say that Labour would disarm – but she did remain very calm and sounded very reasonable.
I don’t know if this is a proper reflection of the debate as a whole, but based on this I would say Johann’s appeal with voters should not be dismissed or underestimated.
The Oil proposition can be put quite simply to the Scottish electorate:
Do you want Scotland to keep the entirety of the £1.5 trillion for Scotland to use as Scotland sees fit, or do you want to give it all to Westminster and only get 9.3% back?
@Edmund
Fantasy island is on another site.
The only way anyone would attempt to defend or sell Lamont’s performance was if they were Labour spin employees or being paid to present an alternative narrative. So, which are you?
Your weak attempt to come across as ‘reasonable’…
“…Johann was poor on the substance of some points as well…” , “…I don’t know if this is a proper reflection of the debate as a whole…”
…will not fool anyone who watched the debate.
There is no doubt in my mind that you are indeed paid to post this unbalanced drivel.
Watching the cross examination it’s just a horrible mess…
@Edmund
“Based on this, I thought Johann was actually very good and it’s childish to dismiss her. She came across as extremely calm as collected, whereas Nicola interrupted her a lot, talked fast, and sounded defensive at points.”
I think this statement has to be a contender for the top twenty most ridiculous comments in the debate so far.
You’d better hope no one finds out who and what you really are… Or how much you are paid to write such nonsense. It will ensure another shift to YES.
@wingman 2020
And yeah, it doesn’t help that if you post an opinion against the groupthink you immediately get accused of being a shill.
I’m not a shill, I want an independent Scotland. I want to be able to come home to a prosperous and fair country, with an economy that supports my job and a proper safety net for the less fortunate. I don’t want to die in an overcrowded London paying for private medicine and living in a hovel while millionaires and bankers snort my rent payments up their noses.
But to tribally declare a debate won for your side without looking at the performance of your opponents is just stupid. If we want to win the referendum we have to win these debates, which means looking at what your opponents are saying and addressing their arguments. On TV how you say things is also important.
Maybe Johann Lamont could be persuaded to Independence? She seems to support more powers, and is against Trident, even though she couldn’t actually say so.
I really don’t know what Labour are truly about any more. New Labour were a disaster after 2003, waging war, destroying civil liberties, and bankrupting the UK economy. After their housing bubble I have no hope of buying a house and settling down. The Lib Dems betrayed us all on tuition fees and proportional representation and the Tories have fixed nothing (unless you’re a banker) despite Dave’s attempt at ‘compassion’.
And all Ed Miliband says is that he’ll be more like Thatcher.
Scottish independence is the only way left to change this country for the better.
“Scots aren’t genetically programed to make political decisions’”
She didn’t actually say that,did she?
I have a confession to make. I didn’t watch it. I started then switched it off. I had figured that Nicola against another woman would produce another different dynamic and a few minutes of it confirmed that.
Johann is in place for one reason.
She is there to dumb down the debate.
@castle hills chavie –
Sorry for slow response. Not long up, blighted with some unidentified non bevvy-related lurgie…bleurghh…
Please drop me your contact details – if someone hasn’t already contacted you I’ll make sure your details get to someone today:
ian@stevenston4.fsnet.co.uk
@Edmund, everything “wingman 2020” is saying about you is true, take a hint or a hike.
Next thing you will be saying is that Lamont is debater of the year, ha ha ha.
It comes down to this: We cannot afford not to vote Yes.
The old slogan “Scotland free or a desert” might sound slightly alarmist to some, but I think it is true. Without independence, we stand no chance of being able to solve the ecological, demographic and economic challenges of the 21st century in a democratic and humane way – simply because the UK-state has neither the interest nor the capacity to do so. A No vote now would consign us to a dystopian future.
An independent Scotland – as long as we have a democratic Constitution and an inclusive, accountable political system – will have the interest and will be able to develop the capacity. A Yes vote gives us the chance something better in the years, decades, generations and centuries ahead. We owe it to our grandchildren.
You’d be a fearty fool not to go for it.
If you watch JoLa/NS with the sound off it’s quite clear who ‘won’, and is much more enjoyable.
I do not think it does our case any good to misrepresent what the opposition say. Lamont’s comment that we are no genetically programmed to make political decisions is perfectly reasonable in context. What she is saying is that no political decision is pre-determined by genetics or scientific laws or anything else. And she is absolutely correct.
my favourite moment was lamonts face when nicola said i was a member of CND before the SNP the look was priceless. for those who dare watch it again.
Edmund, I’ve always said there wasn’t enough comedy on this site. Wern’t you Lindsay yesterday?
Awful stuff last night.
Sturgeon’s time is up, let’s get some new blood, she could do with the rest.
Just about over that so called debate when listening to J Beattie show I heard Kenny Logan talking about how badly treated he was at school because he had dyslexia .
This is the K Logan that said he was going to sue the SG because he wanted to vote NO !
I sent a text to Radio Scotland and told him that that was the Grand Old British Union for you , the one he strenuously wants to vote for ,
Don’t think that they will read it out somehow !
BTW sorry , Kenny Logan lives in England !
@ castle hills chavie –
For SSP leaflets, contact:
richieventon@hotmail.com
and please include a phone number. Cheers.
Edmund
I didn’t find it calm at all. I thought it was pretty shouty and that there was a lot of heat and not much light.
It wasn’t an advert for politics generally and probably did little for the cause for more female involvement in politics either.
On balance Sturgeon edged it but it wasn’t great viewing. The stridency is still ringing in my ears. Time for a better debate format where people can’t talk over each other.
Fiona says:
I do not think it does our case any good to misrepresent what the opposition say. Lamont’s comment that we are no genetically programmed to make political decisions is perfectly reasonable in context. What she is saying is that no political decision is pre-determined by genetics or scientific laws or anything else. And she is absolutely correct.
You’ve been sent in as part of the damage limitation gang haven’t you.
We know exactly what jola said and so did the rest of Scotland – we got something for nothing.
Fiona,
“not genetically programmed to make political decisions.”
It was an idiotic thing to say, and although open to interpretation as you say, I suspect it will only be interpreted one way, by YES supporters and undecideds alike.
Cheers Ian, much appreciated.
Ian Sorry, get well soon mate, your needed in the trenches.
Wee smiley thing that I still can’t do.
Yes Elliot.
Better Untethered!
My contribution will be on its way soon. Brilliant site, converted me and many othersfrom a Don’t know to a definite Yes.
Keep up the good work.
@Midgehunter
No I am not part of any damage limitation gang. Watch the exchange again. We have no need to misrepresent and we do ourselves no favours if we do that.
@MochaChoca
I do not agree it was an idiotic thing to say. A great deal of neoliberal propaganda is predicated on the idea that economics is something other than politics and that their position is based on “human nature” or “science” and is therefore unchallengeable. Ms Lamont is normally embarrassing but on this occasion she was right in stating that political decisions are not fixed or genetically based. Where she was wrong was in the next part: it is true that an independent Scotland could decide to make any policy including the bedroom tax: but it is obvious from the voting patterns that Scots do not want anything to do with the neoliberal project and it is legitimate to conclude that they would vote for any such thing. It is necessary for Scottish Labour to pretend that difference does not exist in order to justify their policies, and their failure to oppose at Westminster. But that does not make what she did say in that exchange wrong and I see no need to pretend that it does
~Doh! *would NOT vote for any such thing
cj at 12.19
You’re right about Portavadie (and probably Ardyne at Loch Striven as well). Why would you build oil rigs for the North Sea 800 miles away in the Clyde area?
These developments were for West Coast oil. When I had a hotel in Cowal I had technicians with me for about a fortnight assessing Holy Loch as an oil industry terminal.
@ edmund
“But to tribally declare a debate won for your side without looking at the performance of your opponents is just stupid”
………………………..
Simply put, there WAS simply no performance from lamont, she failed to remotely answer a single question!
She also failed to present any sort of believable case on any topic.
She also failed to listen to her opponent, instead appearing to merely make a concious decision to talk over her opponent as soon as she had asked her question!
Lamont was an utter shambles, I can assure you Edmund, I judged Lamont purely on the above points.
While at times it was bleeding ears stuff, if you filtered out the white noise Nicola was making clear statements about the topics and clearly exposing the utter failings of the BT arguments, or rather, non arguments.
Sorry, think i mucked that up…
@bookie from hell
I thought your Wishaw chippy debate was excellent and much more constructive than the Lamont / Sturgeon debacle.
I just have one query – it was not very clear from that debate whether the price of fags from the chip shop would increase in the event of a No vote!