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Afraid to lose

Posted on November 27, 2022 by

The SNP are impotent, fearful, useless and liars.

As someone said long ago: “He either fears his fate too much/Or his deserts are small/That puts it not unto the touch/To win or lose it all.”

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Keith Hynd

This has always been Nicola’s problem “being afraid to lose”

Taxi for sturgeon

This proves the SNP hierarchy do not communicate with each other. I watched the full interview and it was a car crash from Brown. He is all over the place. I noticed he didn’t like direct questions but the most important point is he doesn’t have a clue what to do next and neither does sturgeon. They have had 8 years to plan for this outcome. They never let their own members debate plan B. They have spent the last few years consumed by gender ideology with the Greens changing names like ‘mother’ to ‘birthing parent’ on the ScotGove maternity policy. They are an absolute disaster as a government and have failed the independence movement!

Tinto Chiel

Painful when even the BBC Jockland interviewer suggests a better option.

I’m beginning to think Stu’s return is upsetting the Scottish establishment and emboldening normally supine “journalists”.

I know their job is normally to embarrass the SG, but who wouldn’t now, ffs?

Jim Tadgercock

On a positive note I have made a small donation to Salvo this morning and convinced another local not to vote for Wishart. You get the feeling Nicolas secret plan involves climbing a mountain and throwing snow at yerself.

Frank Gillougley

Class.

solarflare

…their Westminster short money and parlaimentary pensions.

paul

Even more afraid to win.

All that paper work, oh my fur and whiskers!

Merganser

Afraid to lose – and rightfully so based on what they have done for independence over the past 8 years, as exemplified by this idiot.

I know it’s pantomime season, but couldn’t the SNP be bothered to put up someone with a tenth of an idea of what he is supposed to be doing?

AberdeenPict

Tinto Chiel says:
27 November, 2022 at 7:58 pm
Painful when even the BBC Jockland interviewer suggests a better option.

Aye, absolutely! when your enemy suggests a better strategy, it is time to re-think your own strategy, or do the right thing and just resign.

lenny Hartley

I think we should use the English Nationalists, the Brexiteers and such to put pressure on the UK Government to issue a section 30.
I am sending this letter to some left leaning English Papers such as the Daily Express and Daily Mail.
Sir re the Supreme Court hearing on whether the Scottish Government can hold an Independence referendum without permission from Westminster by way of a section 30 order.

The Supreme court in its judgment stated that Scotland was not a Nation as Scotland had been subsumed into the United Kingdom on 1st May 1707.
therefore England is no longer a Nation either, I contacted Roddy Dunlop KC via Twitter , Roddy is the Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and generally held to be the most accomplished advocate in Scotland.
I asked Roddy for his opinion on whether England is also no longer a Nation as it was also subsumed into the United Kingdom on May 1st 1707, he responded by saying “The Legal view, expressed by the LA (Lord Advocate – Scotlands Senior Law Officer) in the Submission to UKSC, (UK Supreme Court) is that neither party to the union survived, as a legal entity, following the Act of 1707. applies to England just as it applies to Scotland.”

Therefore the Legal situation as per the UKSC rulling is that England is not a Nation, and therefore as the English are well known worldwide for their sense of fair play, then they should do the honourable thing and Immediately withdraw from the Soccer World Cup in Qatar as the Soccer Team is there under false pretences.

Robert Louis

I have never seen such political cowardice in all my days. Not one in the SNP leadership prepared to do a damn thing, in response to the ruling from the English pretendy court. What a bunch of bed wetters, every single one.

The quote;

He either fears his fate too much,
or his deserts are small,
that puts it not unto the touch,
to win or lose it all

Is from James Graham, 1st Marquis of Montrose.

link to montrose-society.ndo.co.uk

Used By Alex Salmond a lot.

Meanwhile, The ALBA party have organised an indy conference in Perth for Sat 10th December 2022 at 11am, to which all in the indy movement are welcome, not just ALBA members. If the SNP are too feart to act, the public will. Hope folk can make it to the Perth meeting.

Robert Louis

Yeah, tried to watch the video, but some clown has added a music track over it, making it hard to actually hear what is said. Seriosuly we don’t need a music track to make it clear how ridiculous the SNP now are.

P

Time wasters
Gas lighters
Liars…

Dave M

The overly-long responses tell you everything you need to know. Words are the only thing they have. There’s no intention of acting.

100%Yes

Hello, is there anyone out there The UKG has went into hiding because there frightened of the SNP and Indyref2, sorry don’t call indyref2 call it anything else other than indyref2.

100%Yes

The NUSNP have made themselves the joker in the pack of cards and not one single unionist has had to lift a finger, if there is bad as this now how dreadful will they be if we were campaigning for Independence.

David Thomson

@ Taxi for Sturgeon.

In place of Plan A, there is no Plan B.

100%Yes

@David Thomson

I fucking wish.

Mia

Why is it that the so called “feminist to my fingertips” is not sitting in that hot chair going through the hard time of answering these hot questions herself?

Isn’t she after all the woeful “leader” responsible for this evident stalling strategy, for the loss of 8 years of Scotland’s time and for the spectacular mismanagement of our anti-union majorities? Isn’t she the one responsible for frustrating independence and for misleading Scotland’s voters for over 6 years?

Is the problem that she cannot have her spin doctors and PR gurus holding her hand while she is on the hot chair and whispering on her ear what she needs to say and when to blink?

Or perhaps that her masters in London are delaying the release of her next script?

Or is it that she is only a feminist when is politically convenient, but when her fake PR image is in danger of crumbling down, she sends the party men as cannon fodder while she hides at the back until the heat has passed?

What kind of leader hides at the back?

Why is it that this coward always throws the men in her party under the bus or sends them to face the difficult questions she does not have the guts to answer herself?

Come on men in the SNP, until when are you going to be on your knees cleaning the almighty political mess this coward is continuously throwing around but fears to clean herself?

After 8 years of embarrassing leadership, isn’t it about time you let this loser face accountability for her own mistakes and you actually start delivering independence rather than pandering to the interests of the UK establishment and its tool?

robbo

SNP get in the sea- don’t fecking care which wan.

100%Yes

K Brown, might just start thinking that he made a big mistake becoming deputy, now that Sturgeon passing all the heat of kicking Indy into the long grass on to his shoulders.

Merganser

100% Yes @ 9.42

Brown has probably been promised some type of financial reward for taking the flak. It could be delivered in a bus. But will it stop and pick him up, or will he end up under the wheels with performances like this?

Tickets please.

Dan

Yon lad would surely be thrown out of Holyrood for wearing that tie!

Anyway, I wondered where the Frank McAvennie character from Only an Excuse ended up.

Robert Hughes

” Reducing his pishwaffle to background noise was an ARTISTIC CHOICE ” .

Judicious choice too

Nick Cave ( I’m pretty sure ) v Keef Brown : no contest

Steven

I’m not sure who added the music overlay, but it makes it difficult to watch and listen to what’s actually being said, don’t do that, it discredits the point and makes the video sound childish

paul

The music does highlight his facial/bodily contortions.

Switch on the subtitles to underline the minima.

Johnny

People complaining about the song, stop being stupid.

The whole point is that you’ve no need to hear the meaningless drivel being spouted – it’s so much elevator music by this point, a meaningless drone in the background. He’s not telling you anything of any use, because none of it is intended to transpire.

By now, you shouldn’t be wasting your time straining to listen to them.

PhilM

Like a couple renewing their vows decades after tying the knot, I bet the NuSNP would jump at the chance if it was on offer to renew their commitment to devolution. With Andrew Wilson officiating of course…

TGC

Johnny, if we are just gonna listen to the music why not put on a video of AC/DC or the Eagles

Geoff Anderson

Keep piling on the pressure Stu. She has been cruising for years without challenge. The more light shon or her dictatorial behaviour the better. I can think of nothing worse for Scotland than the shameful humiliation if her plan is enacted and it will put back Independence by decades.

The wheesht for Indy mob played tight into her hands. I never thought I would hear so many SNP MPs and MSPs behaving like Unionist footstools. They could bring her down tomorrow, clean out the stable and get Indy back on track. However they are looking after themselves instead.

Every article on here is another body blow to the cretins and it makes me feel better that we are not going quietly as the Unionists and Sturgeon’s clique had hoped.

Ebok

Mia asks

‘What kind of leader hides at the back?’

One who realises that ‘even the president of the United States sometimes must have to stand naked’?

Derek

Politicians of all stripes don’t like questions that have a direct yes/no answer. They’d rather waffle and pass the parcel than commit to something.

Kcor

As the saying goes, if and when Scotland becomes independent, it will be despite the SNP.

The only way forward is a grassroots campaign led by a Ghandi like leader.

Alf Baird

Independence is more urgent now and the delay has been caused by the dominant national party elites’ ‘petrification’ at the required point of declaring independence, much as Frantz Fanon predicts in his decolonization template. Here the imperial power is given plenty of additional time and opportunity to further tighten its grip on the territory primarily because the dominant national party has failed to deploy its elected majorities in any meaningful sense.

Albert Memmi referred to this as “a calcified colonized society” which is a consequence of two processes: “encystment originating internally and a corset imposed from outside”.

The SNP elite has in effect chosen to serve as a colonial administration thereby protecting the colonizers interest at the expense of the peoples’ liberation, ensuring their oppression continues. Once the colonized elites assume the colonizers values they have confirmed their own condemnation. That condemnation stretches across the entire elected SNP national representatives at both Holyrood and Westminster, for they have condemned their own nation and people through their inaction and deceit.

Garrion

I liked the swelling soundtrack. It’s poignant.

Hatuey

Hahahahahahaaaaaa

Brilliant video. And I don’t need or care to hear what he said… we all know what they’re really doing — eff all, as slowly as possible.

I’m just dying to see what they spend the £600 thousand indyref funds on, now that we are formally into the defacto referendum campaign.

How about a big air balloon the shape of a colostomy bag with the words STRONGER FOR SCOTLAND on each side… we could fly it over every Scottish town and city in the run-up to the big day.

Shug

Is there enough brass on Nicola’s neck to show her face again

What a total walaper

Meg Merrilees

I gave up on Nicola and the SNP ages ago.
I seriously wish that everyone else in Scotland would do so now as well.

Just imagine if NO-ONE voted for them at the next election (if they last that long).

‘Yir jaiket’s on a right shoogly peg noo Nicky!’

James Carroll

When the BBC are pushing you to actually do something and call you out for inaction you should know that there is something seriously wrong. It is blatantly obvious what they are doing, growing carrots.

Stoker

First there was ‘Deputy Dug’ and now we have ‘Deputy Dipstick’ of the SNP who says: “There’s more details to be worked out.”

FFS! Really? They’ve had 8-years to arrange a battle plan, but this feckless lot are still searching for directions to the battlefield.

The only sensible thing he said was: “Other parts of the independence movement will be discussing this as well.” Aye! And we’re not waiting until the Mad Hatter throws a tea party next Spring. Then the music saved us as he droned on in autopilot mode.

BTW, did anyone else get the very strong impression that the interviewer, Martin Geissler, has been getting his material from this WOS site? I’m being serious, i think he’s a regular reader of WOS.

Mind you, given the reputation WOS has for facts and the truth, any journalist or presenter involved in UK politics not keeping up with WOS articles truly is operating on a very amateur basis. Either that or they’re so obnoxiously arrogant it’s not worth reading or listening to them anyway.

Breeks

It’s difficult to gauge whether the Irish Parliamentary Party of 1918, which got drubbed at the poles losing 72 of it’s 84 seats was detested by people as much as I now detest the SNP.

I don’t really know my Irish history in enough detail. I know the executions following the 1916 Uprising, the prospect of Irish Conscription during WW1, and women too were allowed to vote had the effect of radicalising the voters to back Sinn Féin, but it’s hard to get a handle on whether the sentiment towards the IPP was anger, disillusion, or simply a switch to a more radical alternative. I suspect it may have been a combination.

I’m curious, because increasingly my feelings towards the SNP are evolving on from exasperation and utter disappointment, to disgust, anger, even hatred.

I despise their cowardice and never ending squirming prevarication. What did Scotland, and Scotland’s YES movement do to end up at the mercy of these crawlers?

The next General Election isn’t going to be a Plebiscite on Independence but a Plebiscite to rid Scotland of these fucking turds and charlatans and start over. That alone is a cause for yet more anger; so much impetus and time wasted waiting for the SNP to act, and still even more time to be wasted getting rid of the useless fuckers troughers.

How can it be rational to wish for Scotland’s Parliament to drive itself into a tree so the embarrassment of Scotland’s FM and SNP Devolutionists are taken out the game and made peripheral to the struggle? Then hope Scotland switches allegiance to a more radical vehicle to deliver progress. It’s nuts, but that’s exactly what I’m actually hoping for.

Truth be known, I worry that the switch isn’t towards more radicalism, as happened when Sinn Féin took the votes away from the IPP, but less, and the nett effect of eight years snivelling SNP “leadership” is a thoroughly despondent electorate who cannot be bothered to vote and cannot be bothered to listen. Scotland just retreats inside it’s shell.

I fucking despise Sturgeon and her lackeys, truly despise them. They’ve done as much harm to Scotland as the fucking Unionists.

All my own faith is now with SALVO and the Scottish National Congress.

I still have faith in ALBA too, but my problem with ALBA is ALBA where? In a Devolved Assembly after Sturgeon has “blessed” Scotland by selling out Scotland’s red Sovereign Claim of Right? Or ALBA at Westminster where the SNP has “blessed” Scotland with the precedent that 56 out of 59 MP’s isn’t enough of a mandate to do anything?

The only place for ALBA needs to be both feet planted in Red Sovereignty, which is neither Holyrood nor Westminster, so where and how do we deploy ALBA? A throwaway resource to spike white sovereignty wherever it’s found? That seems a waste.

Sturgeon’s SNP is so much worse than impotent. In it’s incompetence and constitutional illiteracy it has gifted Westminster noxious unconstitutional precedents which Westminster will not relinquish lightly. Our struggle is ten times harder now. Take a bow Sturgeon, what a sterling effort.

As for the dumb fucks lapping it up? Sturgeon’s playing a blinder??? Where does this degenerate lack of intellect come from? Is it a new phenomenon? I mean at school there were a few whom you knew were going to struggle in life, but for the most part people were more or less sane and got the gist of what was going on.

But Jesus, these Trans fanatics and delinquent deviants are like the fucking Moonies or something, but Society at least had the sense to recognise the Moonies as looney toons and NOT give them a free pass into the mainstream, nevermind a critical struggle for a nation’s independence.

I mean, thank god for feminists who at least seem alert to the threat being posed, but what about the rest of us? Get behind our feminists because it’s our society and the rights of our kids they’re defending, yet they can’t ever wear suffragette ribbons in Scotland’s fragile “Parliament”?

I just wonder if anybody has actually asked Sturgeon if there’s figure on it, and how much she’d take just to resign quietly and fuck off to Outer Mongolia, or anywhere really, as long as it’s the other side of the world.

Stoker

Robert Louis says on 27 November 2022 at 8:42 pm:

“The ALBA party have organised an indy conference in Perth for Sat 10th December 2022 at 11am, to which all in the indy movement are welcome, not just ALBA members. If the SNP are too feart to act, the public will. Hope folk can make it to the Perth meeting.”

Good work, Robert, spread the word. I know they only announced it yesterday (Sunday 27/11/22) but i’m a little bit puzzled and miffed at the apparent lack of interest being shown regarding this.

Given the level of anger being expressed in every corner of the Yes movement i would have thought a lot more folk would be promoting this as much as possible.

Here’s the Alba Party doing what a lot of us have been asking for, taking the initiative, but there appears to be a lack of interest. Hope i’m wrong and it’s just a case of early days yet.

Get the word out every way possible, folks. Verbally, on social media and on any other websites you visit. Let’s do this!

Luigi

The current SNP leadership (and most of their MPs and MSPs) seem to be paralysed by fear. And it ain’t just about loosing a plebiscite election or a referendum. Think about it – what the heck would they do if they actually won? They certainly haven’t explained that. Have they thought this through properly? If there’s a cunning plan of action we remain to hear about it. Result? More paralysis. AFRAID TO LOOSE, TERRIFIED TO WIN.

Stoker

The plot thickens:

‘Nicola Sturgeon could break law with more indyref spending, claim Tories’
link to archive.ph

Robert Hughes

Breeks @ 6.47

Why don’t you say what you really feel ? 🙂

Brilliantly expressed mauling of the nanny goat n her kids , B : I’d be surprised if wasn’t smoke coming off yr computer screen .

I’ve not watched , listened or read anything of NS for the last couple of years , I honestly can’t stand to do so , she ” does ma heid in ” . Like many – but not enough , yet , I saw through her dishonesty and suspect character and now want nothing to do with her , and the embarrassingly/enfuriatingly feeble collection of 3rd ( if that ) raters that comprise what used to be the SNP

Gordon Currie

Slightly off topic, but where’s Murrell the malevolent in all this? At the very least he should have resigned after Wednesdays debacle.

Ottomanboi

STOKER 07:52
Internet searches suggest that the UK.gov may have spent anything from £100 million to £2bn, and rising, on «Brexit».
Any surmized Scot.gov spending on «independence» would be mere pocket money.

Breeks

The enemy newspapers are now saying Holyrood can’t spend any more money on Independence because it’s now illegal according to the Colonial Supreme Court.

Scotland’s Kafkaesque nightmare continues, because any excuse to sit on her arse doing sweet fuck all about Independence will be sweet, sweet music to Sturgeon’s ears.

Why do you think she went to the Supreme Court in the first place?

Dorothy Devine

Breeks , surely that brings us back to the ‘ring fenced’ and donated by members , 600,000 quid? Where is it and what is what is it doing? Whose bank account? Whose fraudulent spend?

tobydog

Sadly Johnny at 10.29pm seems to be the only one who has understood the point of the brilliantly apt music and the particular song.

Hatuey

Yeah, totally Kafkaesque…

I always wanted to say that.

Anyway, on a more positive note, it turns out that al that CO2 we’ve pumped into the atmosphere is hugely beneficial to vegetation growth. The world is 14% greener over the last 35 years as result — that equates to an area twice the size of the US.

They don’t tell you that, do they…

There’s a lot of pressure on Sturgeon right now, more than ever. She assumed we’d all get behind her and unquestioningly buy more of her bullshit. Now for the first time she has the MSM and large parts of the Indy movement attacking her.

It’s going to be an interesting week, me thinks. She’s making everything up as she goes along. One or two curve balls from unexpected quarters and it’s over…

Viscount Ennui

I fear that as a result of the mismanagement of the education, care, and health systems, as well as the complete arse that ScotGov have made of themselves over the ferries, malicious prosecutions etc, the SNP have alienated the middle-ground of potential YES voters who are not prepared to give more power to this shower of tractors.
The reluctance of NS to pursue indy probably reflects her own analysis of voting trends and she may well rue the day that Swinney was left to devise a strategy of corrupting every civic office within his grasp.
My English friens laugh at what is happening up here but really could not care less. They are blissfully ignorant of the deceit that has taken place but have deep suspicions about the stitch-up of AS.
I fear that the ‘thief of time’ blog may well prove to be true and that we may have lost that ‘once in a generation’ chance to breaak free from WM’s control.
Thank you Ms Sturgeon.

Viscount Ennui

PS I am hoping that AS has a trump card up his sleeve and that rather than attempt to destroy the SNP, he uses it as leverage to re-enter the political mainstream.

Pipinghot

It’s the first time I have ever seen Brown on TV and he looks like a character from a comedy right enough. Loved the music, just the icing on the cake. There is a change of direction in the wind…

stuart mctavish

@Breeks

Keep at it.

Scots been mitigating hate for millennia so we’ve plenty resistance to any that manages to rebound (in theory at least).

My advice, for all that, would be to avoid falling into the trap of vilifying successful people (especially those of Scottish heritage and especially in respect of the perceived consequence of our own fears or failure) and spend a bit more pondering over the leverage the incontestable right to hold a referendum with the question ‘should Scotland reject jurisdiction of UKSC’ inevitably provides against those serious about refusing S30 agreement (or in favour of those serious about wanting one, despite what happened last time).

frank gillougley

A sublime, precisely executed and a very measured response by the Rev to the electorate being subjected to this pure verbal diarrhoea by the SNP.

This more oblique and artistic route of commentary on the incredulous seems to me to offer more political fruit in terms of communication, as often satire and ridicule will cut through where endless textual commentary in a sea of the written word fails.

Well, if nothing else, seeing as we are among the kafkaesque, why not long live Dada!

Willie

They’re going have a Conference.

To do what. Discuss a plan. FFS they’ve had eight years for a plan. Hardly likely, in fact absolutely dead cert that this so-called Conference will deliver anything whatsoever. None of the SNP conference now deliver anything. Just the charade of having a conference.

No wonder that at the last ” National ” conference there was less than 900 attending, with over half of the attendees being elected politicians, their paid assistants, party officials and press. Crikey they could even get candidates for election to the Party NEC.

A National Party Conference where the National Attendance of Members was a couple of hundred.

Aye Nicola, a conference in January to decide what to do. Get tae, as they say, and wipe the shite of your mouth. Time you were gone.

Merganser

Breeks @ 6.47 ‘Is Sturgeon playing a blinder’?

You first have to decide what game she is playing.

If you think her first interest is independence, she clearly isn’t playing a blinder, or we’d be there by now.

If you think she is more interested in herself, her mates, getting weird unasked for polices made law, smearing Alex Salmond, and pardoning witches, she is playing a blinder.

Sturgeon’s game is a bogie for sure. Progress will only be made when time is called on it and the definition of winning becomes independence, not another selfie.

KT Lorimer

Do people here really think dissolving Holyrood and asking folk to vote in an election in the winter is a good idea?

Breeks

stuart mctavish says:
28 November, 2022 at 10:06 am

…. spend a bit more pondering over the leverage the incontestable right to hold a referendum with the question ‘should Scotland reject jurisdiction of UKSC’ inevitably provides against those serious about refusing S30 agreement (or in favour of those serious about wanting one, despite what happened last time)

Both the Supreme Court and Scottish Parliament (after Sturgeon’s unconstitutional capitulation), have the same dubious constitutional relevance, because BOTH are now codified on the principles of White Westminster Sovereignty, not Scotland’s indigenous Red Sovereignty. They are both ultra vires because they are both outside their sovereign jurisdiction and encroaching into the Realm of Scotland where the Scottish people are sovereign.

While that attitude prevails, Westminster can exercise it’s white sovereignty with impunity, and that is exactly what we’re now seeing. But that doesn’t make their presence here legitimate.

Scotland is lost until it stands up to defend the claim of Right, and the Red Sovereignty of the Scottish people.

Only one sovereignty can rein inside the Realm of Scotland, and Scotland has an ancient and recognised constitution confirming the Community of the Realm, the people, are sovereign in Scotland.

Any Devolved Assembly declaring it’s primary allegiance to Westminster’s Parliamentary sovereignty, any Supreme Court declaring it’s primary allegiance to Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty LOSE THEIR JURISDICTION the moment they’re in Scotland because the Red Sovereignty of the people is extant throughout the Realm of Scotland, even inside that overpriced obscenity at the foot of the Royal Mile.

Neither Westminster, Holyrood or the Supreme Court can waltz into Scotland, plant their flag and declare Westminster sovereign. They can get to fuck.

Even the King of England knows, and publicly concedes, that sitting on the Scottish throne requires an oath of fealty to the Claim of Right and sovereignty of the people.

Think about that.

If Scotland’s Parliament had a leader instead of a Vichy Gauleiter, if Holyrood simply had the courage and conviction to assert the Claim of Right and Red sovereignty of the people as ascendant, then the King of England would be a material witness and ally to the fact, and the reigning Sovereign of England would be at Constitutional odds with his own Westminster Parliament.

So truthfully, whenever Westminster seeks Royal assent for UK Legislation, if Charles doesn’t defend the Claim of Right and aver Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty throughout Scotland, then he deserves the same fate as James VIII.

Wake up Scotland. WE, we the people, hold the trump cards in Scotland.

Andy Ellis

@KT Lorimer 10.56 am

Do people here really think dissolving Holyrood and asking folk to vote in an election in the winter is a good idea?

Perhaps some folk think the issues we face are important enough to expect folk to vote when it might be a bit chilly. Worse things happen at sea than asking people to brave the Scottish winter. Are we obliged to only campaign in summer?

Breeks

And incidentally, I kinda think the Court of Session is the same territory as Charles III.

If the Court of Session kneels down to Westminster’s sovereign encroachment, then maybe the Court of Session needs it’s own constitutional impeachment.

John Main

K T Lorimer.

I don’t.

I favour the Peter Bell UDI approach.

Let the troughers at WM and HR have their Xmas break.

Then, in January, they all convene to declare UDI and start thrashing out Scotland’s constitution and its economic and political policies. Allow 6 months for that. In July, we have a referendum, at which Scots vote for the deals and policies on the table. If the answer is Yes, no way can WM stand in our way.

If the answer is No, it’s game over for Indy.

We can’t allow this to drag on. There is no clear majority for Yes right now, and there won’t be, because people are seeing just how useless, apathetic and clueless ScotGov is. The way to turn that around is for our representatives to show some spirit and some fire. Show us in some detail what real-world Indy will look like. Show us they mean what they say, at long last.

With further delay, the demographic attrition of Yes-voting Scots proceeds inexorably.

I see no possible advantage to waiting, nothing is going to improve with the passing of time.

100%Yes

The biggest mistake is Sturgeon being leader of the SNP, but that isn’t all of it. The real mistake was putting a lawyer in charge of the national movement when her first loyalty is to abide by UK law.
We in Scotland believe we are sovereign not Westminster. Nicola Sturgeon straight away said she abided by the Supreme court ruling, well love, I didn’t, not for a single minute.
You can either like or dislike Mr Salmond and that’s fine but what you can’t deny is he was able to get the UK to adhere to a binding and legal referendum something Sturgeon has never done and will never achieve. I often say to people, whatever Mr Salmond says people should listen and this is the difference between Salmond and Sturgeon, he’s not a lawyer and he believes the Scots are sovereign where Sturgeon is the opposite and this is why we are in deadlock with the UKG on a referendum. It isn’t the UK denying democracy its Sturgeon, she isn’t prepared to go against the idea that Scots law is supreme in Scotland and UK law doesn’t exist apart from in England and Wales.

Mr Salmond has said himself, he could be a hard person to work for, but if you brought an idea different to his if you left it with him he’d think about and if the idea was better than his, or had majority support he was prepared to change his opinion. Sturgeon is a one-man band, she’ll say Independence isn’t about one person and then goes on and makes it her own decisions about Scotland and our people. Therefore, 99% of the population is over ruled by 1%, she was never a leader running us but a dictator.

I’ll be honest I’m extremely poorly educated for a man of 52yrs and what I’ve relied upon all my live is common sense. I find it hard to believe how people who are better educated than me can’t see the problem is right in front of them (Sturgeon) and it isn’t going to change until they say enough is enough, Mrs Murrell you have to go.

I did go to the Edinburgh rally and straight away Sturgeon was denying Scotland its rights while saying the Supreme court had done its job. I started shouting, betrayer of the Scottish people, someone with a security badge on said to me, I was on the wrong side of the road and my reply was, Scotland is on both sides of the road mate and that’s where my loyalty lies.

Then we heard from K Brown on TV on Sunday, I never watch the show but I’ve seen a clip of it on Wings, where Martin Geissler was having a real go at Brown and I thought this was strong for the unionist media, then I listened to Bernard Ponsonby interview Mr Salmond (I’ve enclosed it for anyone who wants to watch the clip). The interview only highlights why I have the deepest respect and loyalty for Salmond, but Bernard Ponsonby seemed furious with the lack of action from the SNP, I just could believe what I was seeing.

I honestly believe the SNP are handing Scotland to England without a fight. This problem can all be resolved in a single day, remove Sturgeon and ask Salmond to take over, then all the old SNP members and supporters to re-join the old SNP, then we’ll see real change.

link to news.stv.tv

wee monkey

Oh the next time a snp member mentions “europe” remind them how the big boy plays…

link to euractiv.com

Breeks

I dunno about folks merely signing up to Liberation.Scot.

I get the feeling SALVO should be selling tickets for what’s coming.

Alisdair Mclean

We will never get independence as long as Sturgeon and her clique are in power. She keeps lingering around like a fart in a phone-box.

tamson

Me, I’d have said they’re

Fearful
Useless
Corrupted
Kinked
Enfeebled
Dim-witted

Dan

@ Breeks at 11:17 am

Aye, and that is also why the result of the 2016 “Brexit” vote, and the following EU Withdrawal Bill receiving Royal Assent in 2018 should have kicked in a far more meaningful response from those who were / are elected and claim to represent Scotland.

I attended a wee informal local meeting of Indy “players” post the EU vote, and when I pointed out the conflict of the Crown passing a bill that would be contrary to the sovereign expressed wishes of Scots, they really didn’t seem to grasp what it meant or the importance of it.
It was a real eye opener for me that these players in “the movement” did not see the relevance of it.

Andy Ellis

I assume Angus will be relegated to the naughty step with Joanna soon…?

“There is no political problem with a snap Holyrood election regardless of BBC view.

Make the weather and lead for independence and the voters will understand why.
Use Sec46 of Scotland Act.”

link to twitter.com

stuart mctavish

@Breeks

The supremacy of the UKSC is NOT a reserved matter.

Accordingly it can form the basis for a defacto referendum in its true sense and there’s nothing red and white sovereignty can do to stop it because it would be in strict accordance with the conclusions of last weeks decision..

Big Jock

I seem to recall the Tories had an election in December just before Covid kicked in. Yet it’s never the right time for Scotland to do anything. The tragedy is that Nicola convinces people that ‘ Now is not the time’.

John Main

@Dan 11:37

Maybes the players you write of realised only too well that when a majority of the UK voters voted for the UK to leave the EU, that was what should happen.

The time to thrash out what should have happened if the different nations voted differently was before the vote, not after. There was nothing stopping the SNP, or anybody else, stating before the vote that if Scotland voted to remain, then Scotland was going to bloody well remain. What you might have called at the time a clear Plan B. Hell, it might even have supercharged the Remain vote in Scotland.

But they didn’t. The UK voted out. Scotland was never in the EU other than as a part of the UK. There was no mechanism to separate the votes by nation, cos nobody had the basic smarts to see how that could be important. Anyways, Project Fear believed it had done enough to get the fix in.

TBQH, I have little interest in going over this again, as it is a complete distraction.

Dan

@ John Main

As a you’re a “Brexiteer” you would say that, even though you didn’t know what sort of “Brexit” you were voting for, but to be fair you have since agreed single market access would be beneficial, and with that compromise being made between pro Brexit and pro EU folk a strong collective could unify and consolidate around. Progress!

But to return to your point. No, these “players” just didn’t know about the resultant conflict between the crown and Scots that the EU vote created.
That potential situation really should have been sorted out by those who hold the political power prior to the vote occuring, but then it pretty much all came about due to infighting within the Tory party, so they hardly had the peoples’ needs at heart.
But the mandate won by said material change in circumstances created the opportunity to return to the question of whether Scotland should return to self governing status, but as we well know the will to act on that matter has been kicked down the road for far too long.

Geri

John Main.
Alex Salmond did say that in parliament. He stressed the importance of all four nations must show a majority to leave.
He was told to STFU. It was an *advisory referendum* & that each nation would be consulted after the result.

After the result the Tory’s rushed to trigger Art 50. An advisory referendum automatically changed to *the will of the ppl*

There was compromise on offer from the SNP. To stay in the single market. What did Westminster do? Told Scotland to fuck off & promptly gave Thier compromise deal to Northern Ireland out of an act of spite.
We were going out with them. No compromise, Jocko! Suck it up..

stuart mctavish

For avoidance of doubt, my humble suggestion would be to borrow the format/ precedence of the 1997 referendum on devolution* and have the first ballot paper question:

“Should Scotland reject jurisdiction of UKSC”

and the second ballot paper question, subject to rejection of UKSC jurisdiction:

“Should Scotland be an independent country”

Timing could be whenever its considered convenient but confirming the 19 October 2023 date before England return from Qatar could help ensure a Merry Christmas & etc regardless

🙂

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Scottish_devolution_referendum

James Che

Breeks.

This is why it is important for all of us to go back to the treaty of union with progressive studying of the details of why and how it came to be,

I have heard the floating story of how Scotland was subsumed as a Country. On the surface under Westminster propaganda this at first may appear to be the case.

There are details that have been overlooked by Scotland all these years, and are still being overlooked.
This has the same affect as ignoring what the Snp were covering up this past 8 years, along with the belief that we could not be scammed as a population by a few.
Ignoring what is under our noses because we dont like to think we have fallen for the lies, does independence serious damage.

So in relation to the devolved government in Scotland you’re analysis is correct,
The devolved government is a Westminster Domestic legislated government, Not a Scottish parliament in anything but name place.

The Westminster domestic legislation for a Scottish parliament breeches the treaty of union, as it states there will only be one parliament in GB forever after. Under those article.

There are many other breeches, such as the one mentioned by Alex Salmond as the boroughs that were to be kept in Scotland after the treaty of union,
They have been changed and extinguished for favourable voting purposes for Westminster.

But I suppose the largest and most obvious breech at the beginning of the Treaty and before the official opening date of the British parliament.

Is that the prior english parliament actively entered into the new British parliament as itself until 1708,
Where as the The Scottish parliament did not enter the actual British parliament as a Active parliament as the Treaty of union details extinguish the Scottish parliament.
Thus preventing it from becoming a joint treaty of union between the parliament of Scotland and the parliament of England as the Treaty had promised.

A promise made for a Treaty was not a promise kept.

Hence the old English parliament entered as the English parliament, into the British parliament in one smooth transition and was a active english parliament ruling Scotland by itself for the first year,

Breeks

Makes you wonder who it is that’s briefing Scotland’s MP’s and MSP’s when they’re inducted into the system.

It’s clearly somebody who knows nothing about Scotland’s Constitution, or a subversive element which does.

PacMan

The more I think about it, the more it seems that the SNP’s Plan’s A, B, C ad infinitum towards independence is to kick the can down the road and hope something comes up to divert the attention away from it.

Going down that train of thought and with the other policies that the SNP are pursuing, they are only interested in holding power and doing whatever it costs to do that.

We think of populism as Farage type rabble rousers whipping up hatred against ‘the other’ but populism has another side in the left where there is the same type of rabble rousing abut the rich and implementing policies that doesn’t solve any problems for ordinary people but perpetuates it in order to keep themselves in power.

We have seen this for decades with Labour and now we are seeing it with the SNP. For instance, I know it has been said often enough on here that the SNP has been captured by the trans-cult but could it be SNP cynically let itself be trapped by them in order to ride the wave of populist progressivism that is sweeping society at the moment?

As I keep saying if you vote for SNP, you are voting for SNP policies, not independence so if I’m right about the cynical use of populism by the SNP to keep in power then why keep voting for them as well as all your doing is providing your free time to keep the expensive lifestyle of these SNP politicians to continue?

Big Jock

Regards Brexit.

Any independence supporter who voted for that while Scotland was still under Westminster control , needs their collective heads examined. What did you think was going to happen to Scotland when England took all?

The EU was a question for an independent Scotland. Every protection from London that we had , has now evaporated, and look where we are.

Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

Geri

With the SC announcing this was now a matter of law, I think it was Alf Baird (apologies if it wasn’t) who said it’s now the law the Independence movement must focus our attention on.

Alex stated in his clip there are ways. Cameron accepted indyref because it was the least worst option for the UK government. He had others he could implement.

James Che

Breeks.

An acting English parliament that had not ceased when the articles of the Treaty was under effect.
While a Scottish parliament had not jointly entered into the treaty, because the Treaty agreement had made it extinguished,

A active English parliament that undertook the position of the British parliament until 1708 when its session ended, and was ruling Scotland from that political position by itself for one year of the Treaty,

The English parliament Breaking and breeching the articles at the union.

Scotland is not a active participant to the treaty of union at all.
The English parliament is the British parliament.

Geri

Big Jock
I came across a few on twitter. They voted out to trigger SNPs manifesto for indyref2.

I dunno wtf they were thinking?

Anyway, 62% prevailed & it was possible for Scotland to remain in the single market as proven when the deal was given to NI instead.

Just as Cameron told the Naw voters on Sept 19th 2014 – thanks chumps! Now here’s your punishment. You are now at the back of the queue in everything. From this day forward, England, Wales & NI come first. It’s only right & proper they’re rewarded before you. In everything.

Big Jock

Geri – I suppose ultimately it didn’t matter a jot what Scots voted for, as we were trumped by Engerland.

However it’s just the general twisted mindset required to vote to give England all the EU powers. I would swap English rule for absolute EU control and sovereignty right now! The English are just leeching off Scotland, and they are the laughing stock of Europe.

Breeks

James Che says:
28 November, 2022 at 1:14 pm
Breeks.

This is why it is important for all of us to go back to the treaty of union with progressive studying of the details of why and how it came to be…

Within reason, yes I agree.

But say, 100 years from now there’s somebody studying history, and the only archive material they have to go on is Scotland’s Newspapers and TV Recordings. Both you and I know that’s a false narrative, and the true nature of what’s happening is very much “not” what you see in the papers.

If that’s true now, I suppose we need to make allowances for the same thing being true in the past.

Strikes me, post Indy, there’s going to be a lot of work unpicking the “Winston Smith” style Ministry of Truth lies and disinformation about Scotland going back centuries.

There’s a scandal in there somewhere how such a corrupt and exploitative Union riddled with blatant controversies managed to survive 300 years. Be warned too, we may not feel very comfortable finding out.

I thought it was brilliant when Sara Salyers was going on about Scottish Society pre-Union, and this concept of Common Good, which, like our Claim of Right, was a distinctly Scottish phenomenon, which the BritNats have done their best to denigrate and erase.

How many Scots towns do you know which have Common Land and Common Good funds looking after certain parts of their locality? Most of these are now administered by Councils, but they’re more like assets on paper which have tenuous links to Auld Scotland’s Common Good society.

How much of our history is Anglicised and written from an outsiders perspective? Can we refurbish a truer and more accurate historic narrative?

I find myself wondering whether Scotland is just naturally more left wing / socialist in it’s outlook, or whether that is actually a legacy dating back to before the Union when the Common Good was relevant to every day life.

For me, there are big questions to be answered about the Clearances, and how land ownership before the Union was altered after the Union. To what extent was Scotland’s rural population like so many indigenous peoples colonised by Europeans, and lost their lands and property because the had no title on it or “proof” of ownership.

Were the Clearances preceded by a massive theft of title which exploited a primitive system of record keeping. How did Lairds and Chieftains physically come by their Estates in the first place?

I ask the question, because I know for a fact that Buccleuch Estates helped themselves to a significant area of Hawick’s Common Land, and the town couldn’t afford to contest the appropriation. I have a notion that type of conduct was very common throughout Scotland. Even what’s known could be the tip of the iceberg.

We think our modern day Tories and Toffs are very accomplished at stealing stuff, lining their pockets and making their pals rich. I’ve a suspicion the Tories and Toffs of 18th and 19th Century Scotland were even more venal and conniving. I mean, how else did they get away with it?

Geri

Breeks

Holyrood is an administration of WM.
It’s not allowed to think.
It’s not a Scottish parliament.
It is stuffed full of WM civil servants whose job it is is to maintain the status quo & report back to WM any notions it has of straying.
That’s why BoJo & Sunak claim they’ll be holding the SNP to account because the SNP are elected to run thier branch office.

We’ll never get anywhere there until we have a giant who can outfox the foxes. Not dutifully play along like Sturgeon.

Mark McNaught has highlighted the breach to the treaty more recently with the internal market bill. No consent was given to that in parliament but Sturgeon just goes along with it anyway instead of challenging it?

Quinie frae Angus

@Breeks at 1.59 pm

You are so right to pick up on this. Well said. A topic in need of further investigation.

Effijy

English parliament is raising human rights concerns with China!

They are asking how China does it not having its citizens going hungry, freezing, unable to access health care, have power shortages and having half the country going on strike?

The Chinese government has committed a series of ongoing human rights abuses against Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities so they have been most useful in advising the Tory government in how to deal with the people’s of Scotland.

Chic Murrays's Chiropodist

The high point of Keith Brown’s activities to date was to march across the Falklands to slaughter Argentinian conscripts whilst wearing a Union Jack on his combat jacket.

He has done sod-all for Scotland.

Why did the SNP ever allow anyone with Brit Armed Forces or BBC connections within a mile of the party?

No-one with any previous time with these organisations should be trusted. And that includes La Riddoch as well as the John Nicolson slimeball.

Chic Murrays's Chiropodist

The high point of Keith Brown’s activities to date was to march across the Falklands to slaughter Argentinian conscripts whilst wearing a Union Jack on his combat jacket.

He has done sod-all for Scotland.

Why did the SNP ever allow anyone with Brit Armed Forces or BBC connections within a mile of the party?

No-one with any previous time with these organisations should be trusted. And that includes La Riddoch as well as the John Nicolson slimeball.

Effijy

link to inews.co.uk

link to dailymail.co.uk

Let’s organise a chat sometime in future but sit about and see if these Tory sharks find some morality and return the profits of crime.
Slow Nothing Party SNP

Tinto Chiel

@Breeks 1.59: some interesting thoughts.

Two possible reasons for starters could be a) that (in the words of the book) the poor had no lawyers, and b) the historical conduct of The Greatest Oxymoron Ever, the Scots nobility, in general a grasping and unprincipled bunch who would sell their grannies’ bones for glue if it could make them a few bawbees.

Lorna Campbell

The Supreme Court’s ruling that Scotland has no escape route (quite untrue, in any case) should have triggered a mass walk-out at Westminster and an immediate SE under the Unity for Scotland banner. Parallel to that, the case based on breaching of the Treaty by England and England as the UK should be placed before the international court. They want the GRA Reform Bill to pass into law before they do anything else. If it passes, the ‘trans’ lobby/Stonewall and all its arms in Scotland will be celebrating and we will never get these b******s out of Holyrood. They have quite deliberately and cynically put aside our independence to pander to the ‘trans’ lobby. The SNP believes that, by pandering to this issue, along with the Greens, they will solidify their future in politics by placating the youth. That is the level of political nous that exists at Holyrood. They do not even understand that youth grows into middle age and then the elderly, and all the superficial passions pass, too, as day-to-day reality sets in. The barmy wee lassies will become mothers, most of them, and then they’ll get it. The boys will come to understand that letting your d**k rule your brains is a recipe for disaster as the girls they thought were boys overtake them at every level. We need independence now before Westminster starts another onslaught – illegally – on the powers of the Scottish parliament and confines us to HM Chokey Britannia.

Robert Louis

Breeks at 159pm,

I think you are right about Scotland’s history, and how England has distorted it through the centuries. I and many I know would maintain, akin to what you say, that Scotland is culturally socialist, and it may indeed have the roots you suggest. That is why Tories and the selfish, uncaring greed they stand for is so despised here.

As regards the crooked thieving nature of the ‘union’, well now we all know without a shadow of doubt. It was always just about asset and wealth theft by England for England. As it was for ALL their colonies all over the world. It goes like this;

Oh, we have conquered you, so now (lucky old you) you are ‘british’, and as such, your diamonds/gold/silver/oil/gas* is ‘british too, and belongs to our ‘british’ king/queen. Aren’t you all lucky to have our language and king/queen, and now to top it all, to be ‘british’. Now, even better, we will build some roads/rail tracks to ship your nations entire wealth and assets to England, as they are ‘british’ now. Oh, and btw, your language is stupid and sh*t, and nobody will speak it soon.

They did it all over the world, and they are doing it right now this very day to Scotland, as Nicola Sturgeon and her lazy chums sit back and whimper. Cowards, every single one.

* delete as applicable

James Che

Breeks,

I do not disagree with Salvo, we were some of the first to sign up.
And I do not disagree with Alf Baird or yourself for that matter.

But perhaps go one step further legally as to our constitution, our Sovereignty, our realm, our kingdom and our Country,

The implications of setting out on the right foot for a new country are massive,
Independence will be a struggle not only to achieve but the negotiations that would take place over
Many years afterwards.

However on the evidence from the UK parliament site itself, Hansard and other research these matters are to be seen in a entirely different perspective and a great deal to our advantage if it is correct that the first part of the treaty of union was ruled under the guise of the British parliament at Westminster was actually the Old english parliament sitting in the British parliament on its own.

This needs research and study beforehand, not afterwards and would be of considersble help to the SSRG, and Salvo, further more it proves the case of Colonisation.

If the Old English parliament entered under its session into the British parliament in 1707 until 1708.,
But the Scottish parliament did not do so even although that was what was promised in the treaty.
We have a English parliament sitting in Westminster to day.
But not an extinguished Scottish parliament.
We have a English parliament only in the parliament of great Britain. For 1 year. And then continuous until present day.
We cannot and do not have representatives from a extinguished Scottish parliament

We have no united kingdoms.
No united or unified parliaments.
Scotland was not subsumed by England, but it was lied to,
Scotland 1707 parliament is outside the British parliament, the English parliament is inside the British parliament.

The ramifications of the prior English parliament not ceasing as a active parliament in 1707 ( as it promised) to create a new parliament of GB. But continuing until it ended its session in 1708,

Means that the old English parliament made void the treaty, the Treaty of union articles, of joint parliaments, of kingdoms, of Realms, of Countries,

The British parliament is the english parliament on its own,

The propaganda, the fraud of jointly ceasing both the Scottish and English parliaments in 1707 to become one British parliament in 1707 has massive implications for Scottish independence.
For both parliaments did not cease to exist.

It gains considerable ground on the debate wether Scotland is out with the treaty that never happened as promised by the English parliament of 1706.

Robert Louis

Breeks at 0647am,

I often agree heartily with your posts. However one phrase you use above, stands out, and I heartily applaud you for using it, as it is EXACTLY hoe I now feel. It is this;

QUOTE “I fucking despise Sturgeon and her lackeys, truly despise them. They’ve done as much harm to Scotland as the fucking Unionists.”

The SNP and Sturgeon in particular are now a bigger obstacle to Scottish iondependence than the English unelected colonial First Minister, Rish Sunak.

Geri

The exact same was they’re doing now.
Restrict thier trade.
Make them comply or they’re bankrupt. What can the residents do? They can piss off elsewhere was & still is the motto.
Look at what they did to tenant farmers during indyref? They’d to vote No or fck off off thier land.
Another famine is on the cards too. There’s only English ports so guess who will be served first?
This even happened during Covid when they said we should be thankful we received a vaccine at all. Tories already threatening to reintroduce the Alien Act.

The more things change the more they remain the same.

James Che

Robert Louis.

The English parliament did not cease in 1707.
It continued its existence until 1708 when it ended its parliamentary session.

It immediately breeched it own articles to the Treaty of union,

Doug

SNP tractors.

Brian Doonthetoon

A short video showing a contestant on Mastermind, whose specialist subject is “Failure”.

link to youtube.com

Republicofscotland

“There is no political problem with a snap Holyrood election regardless of BBC view.

Make the weather and lead for independence and the voters will understand why.
Use Sec46 of Scotland Act.”

Andy Ellis @11.38am.

You’d better not let Scott see this he said it was all what’s the word ah, yes all shite.

Republicofscotland

Oh and there’s no problem either using a GE as a de facto indyref well not according to this guy there isn’t. It makes you wonder why Sturgeon didn’t use the last GE as one, I think we know why.

“FIGHTING the next General Election as a de facto referendum is “perfectly legitimate” and opposition parties can’t prevent independence-supporting parties from doing it, the UK’s leading pollster has said.

“If they decide to fight an election on one issue, that is their choice,” said Professor John Curtice. “It is not for the opposition to say they can’t do it as it is their legitimate right. People can stand for election on anything they want to within the terms of the law.””

link to 12ft.io

Big Jock

Scotland in the UK is like being in one of those Egyptian maze rooms in Indiana Jones. One by one all the escape hatches are closing.

Soon we will be locked in the UK forever , and our leader stares at the walls. It’s only direct action that will get us out of this trap. We can all the talk of this law and that law, but it’s all theoretical until someone makes the first move.

Republicofscotland

Back to the SNP’s Deputy Leader Keith Brown, yesterday he said it was Westminster that was running scared of another indyref, and that is true, however Brown missed out that it’s also his party that are running scared of holding one, that why we’ve had years of false promises and carrot dangling by Sturgeon, whilst her gutless and spineless SNP MSPs have sat back and said nothing as Scotland circles the plughole.

If it turns out that Sturgeon, the betrayer of Scots and her Three Wise Monkeys, MSPs, who daren’t take their snouts out of the Scottish taxpayer’s trough to see what’s going on in Scotland, don’t come up with the goods next year with a snap Holyrood election, then we must NOT vote for them again let these charlatans go the way of BLiS MSPs in Scotland.

We MUST then give our votes to the real Scottish independence party ALBA at all levels.

gregor

Waffle:

“To talk or write a lot without giving any useful information or any clear answers.”

“To keep changing your decisions about something so that no clear decision is made.”

“This administration has a tendency to waffle on important questions.”

link to dictionary.cambridge.org

Shug

Funny the unionists now campaigning on the SG should not be allowed to spend money in indy projects given the court ruling requested by sturgeon.
And quite right if you think about it.
Bet she didn’t think that through
Has anyone in the history of the snp caused so much damage to the cause

Andy Ellis

@RoS

You’d better not let Scott see this he said it was all what’s the word ah, yes all shite.

He’s be the expert when it comes to talking shite right enough.

I see he hasn’t answered the question about which legal authorities or experts in constitutional law and/or public policy agree with his magical thinking?

Imagine our surprise etc. 🙂

Effijy

Funny the unionists now campaigning on the SG should not be allowed to spend money in indy projects given the court ruling requested by sturgeon.
And quite right if you think about it.

That would be great as it should turn the minds of the feeble think the Tories give a jot about them.

We should also see Scottish Law, Football, Rugby etc all disbanded as there is no country called Scotland just the English colony of that name.

Already we find council areas controlled by the unionist parties refuse to see the Saltire flown
South Lanarkshire even rejected the Saltire to be flown on St Andrews Day or Burns night.

Remember Klunker Brown saying the Saltire belongs to unionists too.
It’s about the only factual thing he ever said if you drop the too.
It’s the stolen possession of the London based parties.

Geri

International law.

Over 50 countries have left the UK.

There are constitutional experts working on it.
Your bias fails to recognise them. Why?

Stoker

SORRY REV, FORGOT TO TAKE OUT THE ‘http’ PART.
__________

Spread this far and wide, folks – stick it on her Twitter feed.

Brian Doonthetoon says on 28 November 2022 at 3:32 pm: “A short video showing a contestant on Mastermind, whose specialist subject is “Failure”.”

link to youtube.com

Rab Davis

If Sturgeon dropped dead right now, I would party for a week.

When that English bastard Thatcher died I only partied for three days,,,so it just shows you how much the wee twisted freak from Dreghorn is hated.

Do something decent for once in your life Sturgeon, and disappear.

Liz

@Breeks one reason we are in the dark is that both Ed 1st and Cromwell destroyed 100s of years of written Scots history.

Also re despising the SNP and Nikla, Neale H said that the rally he was at in Edinburgh where NS appeared, she turned round saw him and immediately ignored him.

She’s not right in the head.
That’s the sort of stuff bitchy girls do at school.

The blinder she has played is that still too many believe her.
As for youth supporting trans rights, the majority don’t really.

Polls have shown ambivalence, heard anecdotally of some despising the wokes, cos they’re attention seeking narcissists but they go along with it for the sake of being nice and avoiding conflict

Friend of mine said her student daughters were all pro trans, calling her out for being old fashioned but when push came to shove and they wanted flat sharers, they were only going to accept females.

Republicofscotland

Y’know, it makes you wonder what kind of people (SNP MSPs) are they sit behind Sturgeon the betrayer week in and week out fawning over her remarks and clapping like seals every time she quibs what they think is a witty retort.

They (SNP MPSPs) know exactly what’s going on and what direction we are headed in (one where the UKSC has a final say on anything remotely to do with Scotland on independence) yet these people (SNP MSPs) who must be of low moral character and short in conscience keep their mouths shut and have done so since Sturgeon the betrayer took office, the ones that have a conscience or any hint of morality have jumped ship to the Alba party this has left behind the flotsam the detritus, who are prepared to allow Sturgeon to keep Scotland trapped in this prison like union.

In my book they are worse than the Tories and Labour, because we know what they are, we expect them to backstab Scotland at every turn for their benefit, the benefit of their party, and of course the knock-on benefit it has for England.

But we didn’t expect Sturgeon and her MSPs to betray us, but they have. Time to shun this bunch of charlatans at every single political election in Scotland and Westminster from now on and to vote for the Alba party.

Doug

Sturgeon specialises in self-pity and vindictiveness.

Kcor

James Che says:
28 November, 2022 at 3:19 pm

“It immediately breeched it own articles to the Treaty of union”

Talking about the Treaty of Union, how many breaches have there been since it was signed?

If the plebs of Scotland had been “sovereign” with a means of exercising their “sovereignty”, the Treaty of union would never have happened.

Did any “sovereign” plebs sign it?

No, it was their aristocrat masters who sold the country to pay off their personal debts.

The plebs’ new aristocrat masters arose the day Alex Salmond resigned as SNP leader and First Minister and have now taken over the country totally.

Rab Davis

These World Cup programmes on the BBC and ITV are a microcosm of what’s happening in Scotland generally.

They are produced by the English.

They have English commentators.

English panellists.

English production teams.

Everything about them is to cater for the English.

And there’s only one thing worse than listening to those English commentators voices,,,and that’s listening to English “Small talk” back in the studio. (I just have to switch channel when they are on).

In fact,,, EVERYTHING you watch on television is run by and set up for,,,the English.

Scotland has to accept this or just don’t watch your television,,, that’s the choice you have to make.

No wonder Scots cringe when they hear their own accents on TV,,, it’s because it happens so rarely.

We’ve been programmed to hate ourselves.

This does not happen in any other country in the world.

Sturgeon’s capitulation to the English is just another example of how far she is willing to go to keep our English masters satisfied.

This is why I personally detest Sturgeon as much as I do the bastards of England.

Republicofscotland

Sturgeon the Judas must be laughing up her sleeve at the unexpected, but probably welcome movement of the Tory donor and House Jock Robert Kilgour, who has revealed that a “leading KC” had been appointed to probe the next steps, to stop another penny being spent on Scottish independence by the Scottish Government.

Firstly, I’d like to point out to this prominent house Jock that Sturgeon has spent virtually nothing on Scottish independence, not even the missing 600K. Secondly Sturgeon the betrayer is about as interested in achieving Scottish independence as he is.

Now that Sturgeon referred the competency on the introduction of the indy bill at Holyrood to the UKSC via her die-hard unionist Lord Advocate, it opens the flood gates for House Jocks to wail and cry out that anything to do with Scottish independence must first pass through the UKSC.

Sturgeon and her treacherous MSPs have done a tremendous amount of damage to the indy cause. If there’s to be any more demo’s they must be outside Holyrood and Bute House calling for Sturgeon to resign and a snap Holyrood election to follow.

Merganser

Peter Bell seems to have lost the plot.

He’s posted a rambling article which concludes with him saying that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are the only salvation for independence!

When he’s called out, he says he doesn’t believe in fantasy politics. I’m still laughing. Then he blows all his fuses and turns himself into a parrot – it’s hilarious.

I’m beginning to think that Andy could be right about him.

It’s well worth a read – but only for the entertainment value.

Republicofscotland

Even the BBC’s Phil Simm recognises that a snap Holyrood election is a possibility.

Yet Sturgeon the Judas and her treacherous clique of MSPs snub the exit route.

“Keith Brown cited the 2/3 majority rule this morning, but in practice the SNP & Greens have the numbers to do just about anything. Nicola Sturgeon could resign as FM and they could vote down any other candidate nominated. It would be messy, but would ultimately end in an election”

link to twitter.com

And Spouse

Republic of Scotland
I don’t think she’ll resign as that would leave a moment in time where she’s not in charge. Anything could happen!

Robert Hughes

@ Liz

” Friend of mine said her student daughters were all pro trans, calling her out for being old fashioned but when push came to shove and they wanted flat sharers, they were only going to accept females.”

Lol ! aye , they’re not THAT supportive – or daft , eh ?

This is an example of how young people – in particular – are just adopting what they THINK is the * correct * position on this issue , not wanting to appear anything other than * pro * all the un-examined shibboleths and implications of so-called * progressive * Politics .

In general , and probably for millennia , younger generations have been annoying the fuck out of older generations – it’s their * job * to do so . The difference now is no previous younger generation has been asked – or felt pressured to – support the clearly insane proposition that humans can change sex .

They ( the young generation ) may be annoying , but the real guilty parties are the adults who are behind and promoting the lunacy , behind whom are the Politicians hoping to gain credit/votes on the back of it , and behind them are the Pharma Corps whose ONLY concern is the vast profits they seek to derive from the lifelong medication required to maintain the fiction of having moved from one sex to another

Scott

Republicofscotland says:
28 November, 2022 at 5:45 pm

Even the BBC’s Phil Simm recognises that a snap Holyrood election is a possibility.

It is a possibility.

But, the only way to effect change once the new Parliament is in session is for 2/3 of members to vote in favour of a motion.

50% + 1 will count for fuck-all unless and until the ‘supermajority’ is voted into existence.

Here’s another possibility, one of the SNP members tries to lay a Bill in WM that would allow a referendum.

And one more – Nicola Sturgeon, Angus Robertson, Ian Blackford, Stewart Hosie, Alex Salmond & Dorothy Bain could hold a meeting of the Privy Council and advise the King to issue an Order in Council, to stave off legal challenge to Union with England Act 1707.

Dan

@ Robert Hughes

Yes, the kids think they are down with all this Self ID woowoo stuff, but they and the authorities weren’t so happy that time I Self ID’d as a bear and took a shit in the wildlife tree area of their playground.
Fortunately I was able to morph into a gazelle sharpish and got the fuck out of there before being apprehended…

Andy Ellis

@Geri 4.29 pm

International law.

Over 50 countries have left the UK.

There are constitutional experts working on it.
Your bias fails to recognise them. Why?

Not sure who – if anyone – this is addressed to, unless it’s just a plaintive cry for someone to educate you on the basics since you appear to be so resistant to helping yourself or even making use of the interweb?

The issue for Scotland (see also Quebec and Catalonia) is that their cases are somewhat different from the former colonies who make up virtually all of the cases, and from the Dominions like Canada, Australia and New Zealand as well.

You might even have seen some of those who were paying attention refer to the Canadian Supreme Court’s words in the UKSC discussion last week.

I’m sure there are constitutional experts working on it. Odd then that those pushing the “cunning plans for indy” narrative are so loathe to quote any corroborating analysis, commentary or scholarly articles supporting their magical thinking. Perhaps it’s a secret, or perhaps it’s just because there isn’t any and they’re talking out of their hats?

I will leave it to alert readers to make their own judgement which is most likely.

Andy Ellis

Ignore “Scott” alert readers. He has no idea what he’s talking about with respect to the 2/3rd majority being required. It doesn’t matter how often it is pointed out to him that he is in error and doesn’t understand how the process works, he continues to assert that a 2/3rd majority is required.

s.3. and s.46. don’t require a 2/3 majority. Despite the fact that many people more knowledgeable than him have made it clear how this works, including citing the confirmation of a former Holyrood PO Tricia Marwick, the current MP Angus MacNeil and people who know a thing or two like Roddy Dunlop, “Scott” just keeps misinterpreting things.

Don’t be like “Scott” alert readers. Be more like Angus Brendan MacNeil: “make the weather and lead”.

Republicofscotland

“It is a possibility.”

Scott.

Oh, I see, so it’s not shite as you boldy stated the other day.

Thank you for suggesting the other routes, both sound very feasible, it’s a pity that the SNP is now a party of scoundrels if not, we wouldn’t need to seek out all the alternative routes proposed.

Stoker

Merganser says on 28 November 2022 at 5:31 pm: “Peter Bell seems to have lost the plot.”

I’ve never taken to him. He’s so far up his own arse it’s unbelievable. Lost count of the number of times he’s come on here, flipped his lid about someone (or their comment) then stormed off in a huff declaring he will never be back etc.

Remember one time there was a few of us just throwing around suggested dates for another IndyRef (i think?) and i said something along the lines of ‘sicken the bastards and make it St. Andrews day’. The fucker went off like a human vibrator.

Laugh? I nearly died! I couldn’t do anything but laugh. My jaws really ached as the tears streamed down my face. If only he could have seen me, he would have gone apoplectic with rage, like the Scottish comedy character played by Gregor Fisher. LOL!

Stoker

Ottomanboi says on 28 November 2022 at 8:57 am: “STOKER 07:52. Internet searches suggest that the UK.gov may have spent anything from £100 million to £2bn, and rising, on «Brexit».
Any surmised Scot.gov spending on «independence» would be mere pocket money.”

That’s actually a good point, re: the Brexit spending, and one i never contemplated. Cheers for that!

Scott

Fuck off Ellis. Are you really so stoopid that you think you can just erase words to counter a valid point? [Yes, is the answer]

Once the new Parliament is in session, a 2/3 majority will be required to effect change by voting in favour of a motion. Alex Salmond spoke to the effect such a majority would have when launching ALBA prior to 2021 election – founder members joined on the back of that, no? Drrrrr….

50% + 1 will count for nothing unless and until that two-thirds threshold is reached.

Take yer new pal RoS with you.

And anyone else who wants to ignore reality.

stuart mctavish

Liz @4:50

Cant recall if he said it was normal or understandable (for whatever reason) but was it Neale who also referred to David Davis as one of the better establishment MPs (seem to recall hearing that somewhere for whatever reason recently)..

if so, wonder if he’s changed is tune now that it looks suspiciously certain that either David Davis carries a portable printer and types at 200 wrds/minute or he has colluded with the Speaker in what appears to be an extremely inappropriate catfight with Scottish MP, John Nicolson.

Whether that’s enough to incline the Lords to impeach the two Englishmen and trigger a GE (presumably obligatory if speaker is impeached for being impartial) might be anyone’s guess, as might what either of them thought the benefit to the union was going to be (assuming, given benefit of doubt, that they didn’t think they were metaphorically bayoneting the wounded after ‘victory’ in UKSC) with such curious behaviour.

Effijy

Moaning Moan and Grovelling Gove Special

link to fb.watch

Andy Ellis

@”Scott”

Once the new Parliament is in session, a 2/3 majority will be required to effect change by voting in favour of a motion

No it won’t. That’s not how it would work.You patently don’t know what you’re talking about, or understand how the process would work in the unlikely event Sturgeon had the balls to do what Angus MacNeil is proposing.

Take your misanthropy and abuse elsewhere.

Liz

Stuart Mctavish, the speaker is a sycophantic Brit nat, overpromoted because the government didn’t want another Bercow.

Having said that, John Nicolson is an obnoxious woman hating creep and I for one would love to see him booted out of WM by any means possible.

He was an internalized homophobe until it became fashionable to be out.
He’s attacking LBG Alliance, so maybe that internalized homophobia is still there, and supported Mermaids, a charity which recommend puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for teens.

Mermaids CEO has resigned, for many reasons, including having her 16 year old son, castrated in Thailand and employing an alleged paedophile.

As for David Davidson, I know little of him

Scott

Andy Ellis says:
28 November, 2022 at 6:36 pm

@”Scott”

Once the new Parliament is in session, a 2/3 majority will be required to effect change by voting in favour of a motion

No it won’t. That’s not how it would work.You patently don’t know what you’re talking about, or understand how the process would work in the unlikely event Sturgeon had the balls to do what Angus MacNeil is proposing.

Take your misanthropy and abuse elsewhere.

So this 50% + 1 will see every vote go to an elected member? Obviously not…so those votes don’t count when it comes to the chamber voting on legislation of any kind. Can you imagine George Galloway trying to exert influence on the same basis, despite not being elected?

Why did Alex Salmond say that a two-thirds majority in favour is all that’s required to ‘start negotiations to end the union’? If a simple majority was all that was required, it’d have been attempted by now.

For the hard-of-thinking –

1. We only elect members to Holyrood.

2. Holyrood then chooses FM

3. FM chooses rest of the Scottish Ministers – the Scottish Government that we the people never elect

4. Manifesto pledges aren’t legally binding – the chamber decides what passes and what doesn’t, not me, thee or zebedee. Anyone can introduce a Bill.

5. Scotland’s status is a matter of law, not politics. The loser has to suck it up, that’s how it works.

6. Union with England Act 1707 is the only glue binding Scotland to England and that is where the focus should be – politicians rarely, if ever, delve into the nitty-gritty of it. Maybe pledging an oath confers a duty that stops them mentioning the basics.

7. Is a prime number

8. Is Stuart Campbell a new-English, because he lives there?

Hatuey

Scott: “But, the only way to effect change once the new Parliament is in session is for 2/3 of members to vote in favour of a motion.”

You don’t seem to get it, do you, Scott. Nobody gives a fuck what happens after a new parliament is elected.

The point is to use the election itself as a vehicle for a referendum. The rules governing parliamentary business do not and could not prevent the SNP standing in that election on the single issue of independence — bypassing the rules of Holyrood altogether and potentially, if successful, rendering the parliament itself obsolete since we would be an independent country with a whole new constitution.

Scott

Hatuey says:
28 November, 2022 at 7:15 pm

Scott: “But, the only way to effect change once the new Parliament is in session is for 2/3 of members to vote in favour of a motion.”

You don’t seem to get it, do you, Scott. Nobody gives a fuck what happens after a new parliament is elected.

—-

The purpose of the election would be to elect members to the Scottish Parliament.

Same as it ever was.

Now tell me what effect the 50% + 1 (minus votes for those not elected) will have on proceedings?

Do the 1 million ‘regional votes’ for SNP count for anything? No, other than in the regions where members got in via that route.

Scotland’s status is a matter of law, not lawmakers.

Union with England Act 1707 is the glue – unpick it in Court of Session and the job’s done. Crybabies can cry about democracy, but that is democracy – Me vs Them is the simplest form of combat on a matter of law, and each side represents everyone with that view if inserted in the pleadings. Loser loses. The end.

yw,hth

stuart mctavish

@liz

Understand where the phobia bit comes in if that’s the sort of stuff these colourful characters get up to.

Way way beyond my attention span though, so refreshing to see that in potentially better news from that place, Alister Jack has put on record that the acceptable test for indyref2 approval is the same sustained support as was required for the 2014 indyref – ie presumably somewhere between the 20% SNP achieved in 2010 GE (2.5 million turnout) and the 45% SNP achieved in 2011 Holyrood election (2 million turnout).

Mark Boyle

Merganser says:
28 November, 2022 at 5:31 pm

Peter Bell seems to have lost the plot.

He’s posted a rambling article which concludes with him saying that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are the only salvation for independence!

He never had the plot to begin with. All he’s interested in is trying to become a career blogger since it looks a lot more fun than a day’s honest work – watching someone turning their mid life crisis into a public spectacle is always deeply uncomfortable to watch.

Perhaps he’s hoping to be “adopted” as a latter day “convert” just at the point we’ve passed peak Sturgeonrrhoea, or he’s been promised medium bucks by her spindoctors to become a public shill for Sturgeon on the interwebs (a weekly bottle of ginger, tin of Baxter’s Scotch Broth and a tin of shortbread, plus the Broons/Oor Wullie annual at Christmas should just about do it). When the SNP can’t threaten compliance, they tend to move to that other old Scottish Labour trick of trying to buy as many dissenters off as possible.

Bellend should remember once events take their natural course and he finds himself on the wrong side of – well, most things really – all a shill gets for taking their miserable shilling is being treated thereafter as if they got thirty pieces of silver …

Andy Ellis

So this 50% + 1 will see every vote go to an elected member? Obviously not…so those votes don’t count when it comes to the chamber voting on legislation of any kind. Can you imagine George Galloway trying to exert influence on the same basis, despite not being elected?

Sheeesh….What is that barely verbal word salad even supposed to mean?

1) Sturgeon resigns, per what is being proposed by those who – unlike you – know what they’re taking about and aren’t barely verbal like you

2) New Holyrood elections are called, because the PO is obliged to call them when no other candidate for FM can command Holyrood’s confidence

3) for those elections all votes for pro-indy parties who have endorsed the plebiscitary nature of the election are automatically votes for independence

4) if the combined vote for pro-indy parties is 50% + 1 it’s a mandate for independence: no confirmatory referendum, no necessity for a Convention or Assembly, no fresh elections necessary, Scotland is de facto independent the moment the mystical single vote is counted that gets us to 50% + 1.

Elegant, simple and unarguable. No reason to engage with courts, seek cunning plans, propose that some unelected interest group petitions the UN or international court. We take, we don’t ask.

It’s politics stupid, not laws that will set us free.

Andy Ellis

Merganser says:
28 November, 2022 at 5:31 pm

Peter Bell seems to have lost the plot.

He’s posted a rambling article …

Isn’t that all his articles….? The constipated prose that makes Effie Deans look erudite and edgy, the easy charm of our very own “Scott” and the incisive wit of Ruby.

Mark Boyle has it in one: Mr Bell is the contrarian’s contrarian.

Republicofscotland

Who to believe now, Scotty Boy, or Angus B. McNeil, hmmm, a no brainer I think.

“There is no political problem with a snap Holyrood election regardless of BBC view.

Make the weather and lead for independence and the voters will understand why.
Use Sec46 of Scotland Act.”

Scotty Boy keeps trying to shift the onus from the spineless and gutless immoral SNP MSPs and their treacherous leader to the court room, I’m not saying there isn’t a route via the court room, but when you have the Rev, Angus B McNeil and even the BBC’s Phil Simm saying that they see no real blockage to a snap Holyrood election next year, you have to wonder why Sturgeon and her nasty clique are avoiding it like the plague.

Republicofscotland

I don’t agree with some in here that Peter A. Bell is a rambler and that his articles are not that good. Peter is a die-hard indy supporter, and that shows itself in his articles he maybe think things through a bit deeper and wider than most, incorporating sides of his argument that some will not like, but that’s just Peter for you.

I’ve had a few jousts with him on his blog and that’s fine with me, who wants to debate with people who agree with everything you say, I certainly don’t.

Scott

The purpose of a General Election is only to elect individual members.

Votes for those not elected don’t carry forward.

We never elect FM or the Scottish Ministers, only the chamber partly gets that privilege.

See Scotland Act for clarity. It’s the law.

Scotland’s status is a matter of law, not politics.

UK Parliament isn’t a court, neither is Scottish Parliament.

Neither institution owns Union with England Act 1707, we the Scots do. Not the English or the Welsh or the Yanks or the Spanish etc…the Scots.

Court of Session can rule on an action centered on Union with England Act 1707.

Holyrood has no power to alter the one and only piece of legislation that binds Scotland to England. WM can but only within terms written into it. If that law’s purpose and intent isn’t being met, then the remedy of repeal should be open to our supreme civil court.

There’s also the route to referendum via public petition. In Englandshire, Local Authorities are bound by law to hold a referendum if 5% of the registered electorate request one, which is a useful comparator for numbers needed.

Vienna Convention on Conduct of Referendums has a section on referendums requested by a section of the population, relating to timescale & number of signatures sought.

I’ve said I can’t run such a thing for health reasons, Mr Ellis, but I did nominate you as spokesperson. There’s public funds available to cover costs.

sarah

O/T: iScot.scot/crowdfunder needs £25,000 – aiming to get it by 30th November, their 8th anniversary.

Currently on £3,608.

If anyone here can help it would be much appreciated. If the target isn’t reached they say they will have to close down due to the increased costs of everything.

Dan

Much to consider when reading this.

link to robinmcalpine.org

sarah

Re iSCot – of course if you take out a subscription then you get the magazine each month as well as helping the fundraiser…

Andy Ellis

I’ve said I can’t run such a thing for health reasons, Mr Ellis, but I did nominate you as spokesperson. There’s public funds available to cover costs.

It’s a bullshit idea with no visible means of support and absolutely nobody but a misanthrope and creepy as fuck on line stalker like you assuring us it’s a slam dunk.

Despite being repeatedly asked, you’ve utterly failed to produce any supporting analysis by anyone who actually knows their stuff to support your magical thinking. Even in the vanishingly unlikely event you COULD produce it, I wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.

We don’t need legal shortcuts, we need to persuade a majority to vote for it. Any other purported routes are harder, more time consuming and will ensure the britnats “once in a generation” mantra becomes true by default. Pandering to delusional cranks who believe in petitioning our way to independence doesn’t help the movement or move us a scintilla closer to the early days of a better nation.

Hatuey

Scott: “The purpose of the election would be to elect members to the Scottish Parliament.”

Of course, but we can construe the result as a referendum, providing everybody is aware and parties supporting the strategy stick to the single issue of independence so that there’s no doubt what votes and victory would mean and lead to.

Failure on any of the above or anything that defines the process as a mandate for a referendum or anything along those lines would render the exercise quite pointless.

If we win, we are independent. Simple as that. And that’s what we are voting on. As far as international validation is concerned, we will have done enough to satisfy.

And Spouse

Rab at 5.15. I agree with all you say. But I do have several friends from South of the Border living here who are very pro Indy. It’s always worth noting who the real culprits /enemy are. It’s the greedy and it’s the establishment. It always has been. After reading the recent Salvo release about sovereignty, I’m trying to work out why we ended up in this position and I feel it’s because many of ourselves voted the party line and pushed all these laws through. We voted Labour, or Tory or lib dem and they all Scots n English let us down. Culloden!

Republicofscotland

Section 46 of the Scotland Act.

Choice of the First Minister.

(1)If one of the following events occurs, the Parliament shall within the period allowed nominate one of its members for appointment as First Minister.

(2)The events are—

(a)the holding of a poll at a general election,

(b)the First Minister tendering his resignation to Her Majesty,

(c)the office of First Minister becoming vacant (otherwise than in consequence of his so tendering his resignation),

(d)the First Minister ceasing to be a member of the Parliament otherwise than by virtue of a dissolution.

(3)The period allowed is the period of 28 days which begins with the day on which the event in question occurs; but—

(a)if another of those events occurs within the period allowed, that period shall be extended (subject to paragraph (b)) so that it ends with the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which that other event occurred, and
(b)the period shall end if the Parliament passes a resolution under section 3(1)(a) or when Her Majesty appoints a person as First Minister.

(4)The Presiding Officer shall recommend to Her Majesty the appointment of any member of the Parliament who is nominated by the Parliament under this section.

link to legislation.gov.uk

Jeanette McCrimmon

Top job Rev. Hilarious.

Dan

This might be of interest to some.

LIVE WED 30th 7PM

#TNTShow Ep 121. With Prof Sionaidh Douglas-Scott @sionaidh
and host John Drummond @benarty

Anniversary Chair in Law Queen Mary UoL & former Prof of European and Human Rights law Oxford.

link to independencelive.net

Got a question? Post them on live chat.

link to twitter.com

I recall attending a talk by John Drummond a good while back about having a Constitution, and the matter of being wary of who you empower to move to implement it was touched on. How can we be sure those we trust with our vote to do a certain thing won’t deviate or alter what was proposed once they are empowered.
Would you trust the current upper cabal of the NuSNP if they were empowered in a plebiscite election, especially so with their past record on following mandates?

Scott

Hatuey says:
28 November, 2022 at 8:49 pm

Scott: “The purpose of the election would be to elect members to the Scottish Parliament.”

Of course, but we can construe the result as a referendum, providing everybody is aware and parties supporting the strategy stick to the single issue of independence so that there’s no doubt what votes and victory would mean and lead to.

And this construing is written into the Scotland Act, is it? Votes for those not elected count, via invisible MSPs?

The same Act regulates elections to Scottish Parliament – the sole purpose of which is to elect members, not FM or the Scottish Ministers or any political agenda. It may seem like that, but in law it really isn’t. Members can do what they like, manifestos are wish-lists, not a contract.

But supposing you and other idiots are right about the ‘Scotland Act 50% + 1’, where does the ability to repeal Union with England Act 1707 come from and via what mechanism? Not the Scotland Act, as any legislation can be challenged by Advocate General or legislated to nullify effect.

The place that will decide Scotland’s status is the Court of Session, not Holyrood or Westminster. And it’ll be based on Union with England Act 1707. Westminster can’t repeal UwEAct1707 or UwSAct1706 as it doesn’t own either piece of legislation, it can only amend [Think of EU law amending domestic, but not owning Primary legislation itself]

A public petition, say running for a year, can seek any change it wants. Claim of Right Act 1689 allows direct petition to the King. Will of the people is something the monarch has to recognise or they can be sacked. Just as the Governments can be. The convention that the Court won’t interfere with Parliament’s ‘sovereignty’ is just that, a convention. It can and should if needed.

Union with England Act 1707 needs repealed. If the people declare their wishes such, so be it. Scotland Act doesn’t govern public petitions – common law right in Scotland, innit.

If the Court of Session rules UwEAct1707 should be reduced, so be it.

Merganser

Republic @ 8.16

This last article by Peter Bell seems rather more weird.

It was the statement that he didn’t believe in fantasy politics, having backed the SNP to be part of the solution, that makes you wonder where he is coming from.

And then parroting that Nicola is First Minister so many times – what was all that about?

Doug

The National is giving publicity to a new fundraiser for an independence poll. New names to me. Worth a look?

Republicofscotland

Merganiser @9.17pm.

Here ya go just ask him.

link to peterabell.scot

link to twitter.com

John Main

@ Andy Ellis says:28 November, 2022 at 7:56 pm

That’s a clear process you have outlined. I have taken the liberty of summarising:

1) Sturgeon resigns.

2) New Holyrood elections are called, because the PO is obliged to call them when no other candidate for FM can command Holyrood’s confidence.

3) All votes for pro-indy parties who have endorsed the plebiscitary nature of the election are automatically votes for independence

4) If the combined vote for pro-indy parties is 50% + 1 it’s a mandate for independence.

I like it – it’s something people can understand.

The biggest hurdle, IMO, lies at step 3. “pro-indy parties who have endorsed the plebiscitary nature of the election”.

That’s where a failure of these parties to play ball will derail the plan.

Do you agree that is the biggest hurdle to overcome?

David Hannah

“He either fears his fate too much, or his deserts are small. That puts it not unto the touch. To win or lose it all.”

One of Big Eck’s auld da’s favourite poetry. I read his book the other day!

On yourself Alex Salmond. The dream shall never die! We will win our Independence Yet! Here we go!

Joe

Merganser says:28 November, 2022 at 5:31 pm
Peter Bell seems to have lost the plot.
He’s posted a rambling article which concludes with him saying that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are the only salvation for independence!
When he’s called out, he says he doesn’t believe in fantasy politics. I’m still laughing. Then he blows all his fuses and turns himself into a parrot – it’s hilarious.

I’m beginning to think that Andy could be right about him.

It’s well worth a read – but only for the entertainment value.
————————————————————
“Peter Bell seems to have lost the plot.” And your only realising this now ?
“I’m beginning to think that Andy could be right about him.” Better late than never i suppose.
Peter Bell is of the same breed as many in the fray who is only really interested in promoting himself so he can get worshipped and speak bollocks at rallies. Ask yourself honestly …if he just packed up and went back to his native England who would really notice or care ?

David Hannah

We didn’t lose in 2014.

We merely repositioned the goalposts of Victory!

Love it!

It’s time Scotland brought Alex Salmond off the bench help us win the World Cup for Scotland. He is our Lionel Messi!

Bring it home big Eck. Bring it home!

Shug

John main
I think 1) is the problem and remember she is being protected

They will not dump her in the mud until they have game set and match.

She will be useful to them in the future

Robert Louis

Rab Davis at 518pm,

It isn’t just the TV. Check out ‘scottish’ local radio. Sure, some content and shows are from Scotland, but more and more is produced elsewhere, and most of the advertising is English.

But here in Scotland, we are meant to just put up with it, or we are ‘racists’. Could you ever imagine, folk in England turning on the main BBC or SKY news, or even just TV channels in the evening to find it ALL about Scotland, and Wales, with just one odd very negative story or programme about England near the end. Or if all their football on the BBC and ITV was Scottish and the only live football internationals they could see were of Scotland (with any England games shown, if they are lucky, after midnight as ‘highlights’ on the red button).

They would not tolerate it for one second, but in Scotland we are told we are racists if we object.

The so-called ‘union’ with England is sh*te. It really, really is. Of course we now know that in England’s eyes it is no longer a union at all, but servitude, colonialism. Scotland is something OWNED by England. England’s plaything, to do with as it pleases, and steal from on a whim.

No other country in the world would tolerate what they do to us, and the way they denigrate our country, steal our wealth and usurp democracy.

Andy Ellis

@John Main 9.43 pm

Oh absolutely, I realise that the chances of the devolusionists in the SNP and Scottish Greens playing ball are very small.

It’s the principle that needs to be focused on: that’s why we have to ensure the SNP can’t assert ownership or be proprietorial about plebiscitary election process in the event their balls ever drop.

Hatuey

Scott: “And this construing is written into the Scotland Act, is it?”

I could construe that the Scotland Act’s failure to mention construing means that construing is perfectly legal and legitimate.

There’s nothing in the Scotland Act about plebiscitary elections and even if there were, it wouldn’t matter.

Democracy when you boil it down to is about determining the will of the people. Nothing written anywhere, by anyone, on anything, has higher authority than the will of the people.

If voters understand the terms of the plebiscitary election, as proposed, and the majority vote for independence, then Scotland is independent. At that point we don’t need to worry about The Scotland Act, we would be divorced from it and the UK.

Pete

Hey Stu, unrelated to the article but I just had a random thought that I imagine you’ll find amusing.

Kezia Dugdale entered I’m A Celebrity in 2017, and ended up finishing in 10th place.

Matt Hancock entered I’m A Celebrity in 2022, and ended up finishing in 3rd place.

Yep its official: serial loser Kezia Dugdale can’t even beat a scandal ridden, disgraced MATT HANCOCK of all people at winning votes!

Geri

Scott.
I agree.

It’s not the first time I’ve heard this is now a matter of law since the Supreme Court overstepped the mark.
Scotlands constitution is alive & well. It’s been recognised & ratified. The people hold the keys to get out the Union, not politicians.

The convention of the Estates can sack the government, a KC can go to Chucky & the court of session can sort the rest.

The new steering group looks promising. Some have been at this for years but anytime they present Sturgeon & Co with a way out – they blank it. Proving politicians can’t be trusted. They do what politicians do, they look after number 1 once theyre in office.

Geri

Hatuey.

One major problem with that. It won’t be accepted by London.
They’ve just made it a matter of law that we are forbidden from leaving & we’ve no right to self determination either.

Geri

The Scottish people are Sovereign – that was written into the original treaty which can’t be undone. It’s recognised & accepted by both parliament’s & by Chucky. The SC have rendered that irrelevant – they’re more Sovereign than us & they have the power to impose thier will on us. (Does Chucky know they’ve just threatened his kingdom & made an arse of his recent oath to uphold the claim of right?)

This is why it would need to go to the Court of Session. They’ve broken the treaty of Union & with it tried to erase Scotlands sovereignty.

Politicians can’t fix that. Only the law can fight the law & the SC judgement needs challenged by law, not MSPs who’d struggle to tie their laces.

Jiggery-pokery with Plebiscites doesn’t overturn the judgement & it doesn’t make WM suddenly give a shit! They’ve ruled that’s an irrelevance.

Geri

Ellis 6:01pm

I suggest you use the interweb yourself.

The SC tried to reference Scotland in the same bracket as a federal state. We’re not living in a federal state are we so why cite it as having relevance to our situation?

Rab Davis

Robert Louis 10 pm

Bang on.

Rab Davis

I’m confused.

If Scots are a Sovereign people,,,then why the hell have the English just walked all over the top of us?

If we are meant to legally decide our own destiny,,,why has a foreign country just decided our future for us.

Because this is where I get really confused.

Why are legal heads like Joanna Cherry and others not standing up and telling them they are not on.

Instead,,,they seem to have meekly accepted the ruling that Westminster is King here.

Or am I missing something,,,is there something happening in the background I don’t know about?

Rab Davis

Re: Robert Louis 10pm

On Sunday STV screened a game from the English FA Cup. It was Ebsfleet v Fleetwood.

Scots were not given any options here,,,it was just thrust upon us, whether we liked it or not.

On Monday in the Scottish Cup, Ayr played against Pollock. It was probably watched by a small number of Scots. It was only shown on local BBC TV.

Can you imagine the reaction from English viewers if this game was televised all over the UK, like the Fleetwood game was?

There would have been be uproar. It would be brought up in their English parliament.

It would never happen again.

But in Scotland, we don’t have the same clout,,,we are told to suck it up,,, like it or lump it.

Which is similar to what the Supreme Court have just told us.

And Sturgeon’s response is fuckin despicable.

She has sold our souls to these English bastards.

I just wish she would drop fuckin dead and give us all the break we are looking for.

Geri

Scots are sovereign. When the treaty of Union was signed that remained an absolute & a non negotiable term. Two sovereign kingdoms. The Union of the crowns.

Scottish sovereignty was exercised by the convention of the Estates with the power to sack the government & a monarch if he was shite.

Over centuries the UK government have tried to erase that vital part of the treaty & make thier sovereignty trump ours by claiming we relinquished our sovereignty when we signed up to the new unitary state known as the UK – (while conveniently they kept thiers) but we didn’t as proven when Chucky swore his oath to uphold it. Proving it’s alive & well & in law.

It’s a myth it was ever erased & the Supreme court has just perpetuated it. That’s why it needs challenged in court, not in Holyrood by politicians who’d only be thwarted daily. What the supreme court has done is against international law. They can’t claim were in a voluntary Union & then declare we’re a colony & have no rights to self determination while citing federal bullshit as a source that has no relevance here.

The convention is supposed to be reconvened by Sturgeon. I won’t hold my breath. She’s a Plebiscite to sell that won’t be recognised by the UK government.

PhilM

Re: Robin McAlpine’s latest opinion piece.
This is the second time I know of that Robin has mentioned that meeting where the decay of Scotland’s towns was discussed by an elite who couldn’t care less. Then we had that article from some SNP activists mistakenly invited to that post-election rooftop party in Edinburgh where a select body of attendees were toasting victory. Somewhat similar was Mark Hirst’s little snippet about rumours of the SNP using private detectives to spy on people.
What no-one seems willing to do is name names! We hear tantalising allusions to shady people and shady goings-on from certain well-placed people in the independence movement but it never amounts to very much in the end. If, as Robin says, Scotland has a governing class that does its ‘business’ somewhat in the shadows, then it might benefit our movement to map out who these people are, how do they know each other exactly, did they go to the same schools, are they a kind of ‘set’ like the ‘county set’ and where do they go to socialise together in the evenings and at weekends and so on. It’s all a big mystery apparently.
I suppose we will need to see what Commonweal’s “Sorted” handbook says but I doubt it will provide anything close to a Panini sticker album with the identities of the ‘powerful’. Unless we can show how these networks come together to wield power, we might win independence but some things will be seen to change only so that things can stay the same.

Stoker

PhilM says on 29 November 2022 at 2:46 am:

“What no-one seems willing to do is name names! We hear tantalising allusions to shady people and shady goings-on from certain well-placed people in the independence movement, but it never amounts to very much in the end. If, as Robin says, Scotland has a governing class that does its ‘business’ somewhat in the shadows, then it might benefit our movement to map out who these people are, how do they know each other exactly, did they go to the same schools, are they a kind of ‘set’ like the ‘county set’ and where do they go to socialise together in the evenings and at weekends and so on. It’s all a big mystery apparently.”

Otherwise, it’s just a load of ‘old steamy gossip’. Mind you, usually there’s no smoke without fire and folk are just being very weary of naming names because *that’s* what lands one in Court.

By the way, Phil, what’s this “Sorted” thing you refer to? Are Commonweal bringing out a ‘wee book’? (See what you’ve started, Rev, they’re all at it. lol!) And if so, what’s it supposed to be about? I don’t follow ‘Commonweal’ so i’m not up to scratch with their activity etc.

If they are, Phil, then you could almost bet your life on a lack of finer detail due to the legal ramifications i’ve mentioned above. Unless those behind the book have rock-solid evidence to support their claims and deter any threats of legal action. Now *that* alone would be worth every penny of a purchase.

Andy Ellis

@Geri 12.58 pm

The SC tried to reference Scotland in the same bracket as a federal state. We’re not living in a federal state are we so why cite it as having relevance to our situation?

The SC discussed the Quebec case and self determination because the SNPs submission to the court brought it up. Roddy Dunlop has done a brilliant job on twitter since the UKSC’s decision in schooling the hard of thinking adherents of cunning plans.

It doesn’t really matter what individual flavour of magical thinking or legal shortcuts those bumping their gums about non-conventional routes to indy are obsessed with, none of them have any visible means of support. It’s all unicorns and rainbows. Whenever they are asked for any legal opinion, any actual expert analysis or published articles they go strangely quiet and mumble that it must be true because *reasons*, or because Sara Salyers and Iain Lawson say so which magically renders it FACT.

The movement as a whole doesn’t buy these cunning plans, still less the international community which will have to recognise the newly independent Scottish state.

Andy Ellis

@Geri 11.30 pm

The convention of the Estates can sack the government, a KC can go to Chucky & the court of session can sort the rest.

Really? Says who? If it’s that simple, why has nobody – including presumably all these KC’s and talented lawyers over the years – seen fit to do it? Is it perhaps because it’s a load of baloney? How is this Convention called? Who calls it? Who sits in it? How are they elected or made accountable? Who pays for it? How does it demonstrate that it commands the support of the majority of Scots?

The new steering group looks promising.

Which new steering group? Salvo? The SSRG? Liberation? Same questions as above. Who appointed them? On what basis? Who funds them? Why will anyone take any notice of them?

2 million people signed the Scottish Covenant in the 1950’s which resulted in SFA: now we’re earnestly told by a handful of self appointed activists that 100,000 signatures for some petition will magically result in the UN and international courts taking our side and classifying us as a non-self governing territory so we can claim to be a colony and declare UDI?

If you and others honestly believe in such an improbable train of events, and think they are more likely to result in independence than a referendum or plebiscitary elections, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying.

Shug

A passing thought for the morning.

The MSN is on about the SNP gov spending money on Indyref2

Could Nicola proceed and spend money in the knowledge it is unreasonable given the law to push the SNP into a Catalonia position to kill of the movement completely.

Stoker

@ Robert Louis (10:00 pm) and Rab Davis at (5:18 pm & 2:02 am).

Three very observant and valid posts.

I too notice all these things and have done for decades. Most recently the English Cup game referred to by Rab. Btw, it wasn’t the only one, there’s been at least 3 of these games shown recently that involved teams unheard of from some parts of England i never even knew had a football team. And that’s on a supposedly “Scottish” tv channel.

It’s a common theme saturated throughout every aspect of Scotland’s tv & radio programming that we are supposed to accept as “entertainment”. From the folk behind the scenes, producers, editors. participants and even the way the programmes are titled, or the way programme synopsis are written. It is all geared towards serving the much larger market (population wise) of England.

Both outlets, radio & tv, also serve as propaganda/brainwashing platforms that work on the drip drip effect. Though to what extent is extremely hard to measure. We can’t measure or adequately define it, but we know it when we see it. And in Scotland we see it 24/7, you’d have to be both deaf and blind not to. Or extremely naive.

Take tv for instance. More and more we’re witnessing the use of words in titles such as Britain, British or UK when they really mean English or England. Then we have this being repeated within the written programme synopsis (the brief paragraph we get describing what that programme is all about). It’s the UK entertainment industries version of the supermarkets branding everything with ‘The Butchers Apron’. None of this is happening by accident or coincidence.

Some folks dismiss our concerns about this as being trivial or even childish etc. Or, in the extreme, as pointed out by Robert, they accuse us of being bitter or racist. Anything to shut us up and encourage acceptance. It matters! Psychology tells us it matters. Just like any countries sporting success has major bearings on that countries self-esteem (feel good factor), productivity and any future success in all walks of life etc.

Here’s a few examples, keep in mind this is taking place in Scotland and is being produced for “entertainment and educational” purposes. I’ll start with one example that doesn’t even refer to any country, such is their arrogance:

BBC – ‘Fever Pitch: The Rise of the Premier League’
“The story of how football’s Premier League was formed, told by its stars. Contains some strong language.”
Where’s the four hours production on the history of Scottish football? Not that i’d want to watch it but that’s not the point.

BBC – ‘Secrets of the Museum’
Six one-hour episodes all about the Victoria & Albert Museum in London. Where’s the six one-hour episodes about any number of Scotland’s visitor attractions. Have we not got any great museums etc?

CH5 – Britain’s Favourite Toys: The 80s
CH5 – Britain’s Best Back Garden
CH5 – How Diana Changed Britain
??? – Secret History of British Gardens
??? – Devon and Cornwall at Christmas
CH5 – Inside Kings Cross: The Railway
ITV – Heathrow: Britain’s Busiest Airport
CH5 – Building Britain’s Railways
BBC – Politics UK
CH4 – The Great British Bake Off
CH5 – 1975: Britain’s Biggest 70s Hits
CH5 – British Made with John Prescott
??? – Britain’s Most Evil Killers
??? – Brit Cops: Frontline Crime
??? – Cops UK: Bodycam Squad
??? – Beware: Grand Theft Britain
CH5 – Walking Britain’s Roman Roads
??? – Great British Railways
??? – The Chase UK
??? – How to Build British: Caterham
??? – British Treasure, American Gold
CH5 – Britain’s Favourite Christmas Adverts
CH5 – Home Alone: Britain’s Favourite Christmas Movie
CH4 – Handmade: Britain’s Best Woodworker
??? – Motorway Cops: Catching Britain’s Speeders
??? – Steam Train Britain
??? – Great British Railway Journeys
??? – The Architecture the Railways Built
??? – Battle For Britain’s Heroes
??? – Britain’s Ancient Capital: Secrets of Orkney
??? – Britain’s Most Historic Towns
CH5 – Thames at Night
CH5 – London: 2000 Years of History
CH4 – A Lake District Farm Shop
??? – New Forest: The Crown’s Hunting Ground
CH5 – Britain’s Favourite Party Songs
BBC – Secrets of the Museum
CH4 – One Night in the Natural History Museum
BBC – Blackburn Sings Christmas with Gareth Malone
CH5 – Crimes That Shook Britain
CH4 – Britain’s Novel Landscapes with Mariella Frostrup
CH4 – The Pennines: Backbone of Britain
??? – Britain’s Most Evil Killers
CH5 – Britain’s Great Cathedrals: Durham Cathedral
CH5 – Walking Victorian Britain: Lancashire & West Yorkshire
CH5 – Digging Up Britain’s Past: Lindisfarne & The Isle of Man
BBC – Yorkshire Midwifes on Call
CH5 – Brunell: The Man Who Built Britain
CH5 – World’s Greatest Bridges: The Severn Bridge
CH5 – Britain by Boat
CH5 – Building Britain’s Canals: The Grand Union Canal
BBC – Sensationalists: The Bad Girls & Boys of British Art
CH5 – British Planes that Won the War
CH5 – Fred & Rose West: A British Horror Story
CH5 – Are You Being Served? A Very British Comedy
CH5 – How the Victorians Built Britain

I could add hundreds more to this list but i think folk get the picture. Here’s one more to round off how this topic started. And in current World Cup theme. Being shown on BBC ONE Scotland is a series of World Cup dedicated programmes called ‘MOTD World Cup Top 10 Moments’.

It involves 3 former English footballers sitting discussing their favourite World Cup events of previous World Cups. For instance, the one coming up for viewing this weekend is the ‘Top 10’ teams who have never won the trophy but “gave us all” great entertainment. Where’s the programme with 3 former Scottish footballers discussing ‘Top 10 World Cup Moments’ etc?

I guarantee Germany, France, Brazil, Argentina, Holland, Portugal, Spain etc etc etc don’t have English sports dominating their tv or radio listings. Why should Scotland be expected to tolerate and accept this? Why should generation after generation of Scotland’s children have all things England and English rammed down their throats?

*That* isn’t racist to think that way, that’s how every country on this planet thinks. *That* is normal, having another countries’ influences forced on you 24/7, especially on young minds, is anything but normal and no country would tolerate it. Reverse this situation on England and sit back and watch England erupt in outrage.

Never underestimate the power of what’s going on here, especially coupled with the mass branding of consumer goods with The Butcher’s Apron. It’s the only weapon the BritNats have, but it’s a powerful one. And they’ve been at it for hundreds of years, if you include newspapers too.

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:
28 November, 2022 at 8:08 pm

Isn’t that all his articles….? The constipated prose that makes Effie Deans look erudite and edgy, the easy charm of our very own “Scott” and the incisive wit of Ruby.

FAO Stuart Campbell

Please note personal abuse.

Is personal abuse OK or not OK?

Ruby

Shug says:
29 November, 2022 at 8:06 am

A passing thought for the morning.

The MSN is on about the SNP gov spending money on Indyref2

Could Nicola proceed and spend money in the knowledge it is unreasonable given the law to push the SNP into a Catalonia position to kill of the movement completely.

What I read was that

Senior Whitehall officials are examining whether Scottish civil servants should be allowed to keep working on the SNP’s independence plans following the landmark court decision.

Robert Hughes

Andy , what I find amusing is the idea that another Referendum – same WM/MSM involvement , same franchise , almost certain same result , or it’s new wee brother ie Pleb Election – are any less magical thinking that the things you constantly disdain .

In literary analogy – the * alternative * routes may be ” Magic Realism ” ?- but the * conventional * routes are ” Pulp Fiction ”
undemanding ” Police Procedural/Crime ” airport – fodder . The stuff Sturgeon waxes lyrical about . If you can imagine that dullard being * lyrical * about anything ?

At least the * alternatives * are good stories . With the right emphasis the * Realism * is equal to the * Magic * . I’m of the opinion we urgently need a bit of both . * Magic * can be understood in a variety of ways 🙂

You ask ……

* How is this Convention called? Who calls it? Who sits in it? How are they elected or made accountable? Who pays for it? How does it demonstrate that it commands the support of the majority of Scots ”

Let me ask you …..

How are you going to compel Sturgeon/SNP to make any PE a broad coalition of pro-YES Parties/Groups ?

How are you going to compel the Brit State to ( a ) Accept the premise of a PE initially ( b ) compel them to accept the implications of a * successful * outcome ( from an Indy POV ) ?

How are you going to compel the Sturgeon/SNP to – decisively – ACT on such a * successful * outcome – rather than just use it as another , larger S30 begging bowl ?

TBH , Andy , I’ve come to believe the unicorn-riders are those who believe in the fairy-tale the Brit State will EVER * allow * the dissolution of Union .

If you still think * conventional * methods will prevail . Fair enough and good luck . I don’t

Effijy

LBC has Brexit Secretary David Davis on to tell us we should adopt the long standing Swedish system for asylum seekers.

As there is no war or internal dangers within Albania, why are the majority of applicants here
from a safe country? It seems Sweden’s system simply sends you back immediately if you are from a safe country.

Why Mr Davis did you demand we could only control our borders if we left the EU?
Sweden is in the EU.
When Sweden joined the EU they were not forced to use the Euro, another Tory lie that Scotland would need to if we rejoined.

You can call my currency anything you like if it frees us from Westminsters clutches

Dorothy Devine

Shug , but there is 600,000 quid of ringfenced Indy2 money which is none of anyone else’s business – not even the donors, or the police, or the media’s and certainly not the oppositions!

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:
28 November, 2022 at 8:36 pm

It’s a bullshit idea with no visible means of support and absolutely nobody but a misanthrope and creepy as fuck on line stalker like you assuring us it’s a slam dunk.

More personal abuse!

What are the rules re personal abuse?

Andy Ellis

@Stoker

Some folks dismiss our concerns about this as being trivial or even childish etc. Or, in the extreme, as pointed out by Robert, they accuse us of being bitter or racist. Anything to shut us up and encourage acceptance…

Isn’t the problem that it CAN look trivial, childish and even bitter or racist at the fringes? Of course there’s an issue and a self respecting nation wouldn’t put up with it and would not only have insisted on more investment in national broadcasting, media and press, but as we saw recently with the appeals for Monet to save iScot magazine, if people aren’t prepared to fight for things, or put their hands in their pockets to fund them, or elect parties that will promote, fight for and fund these priorities, how can it be forced?

Sometimes it DOES look and feel a bit over done, line folk having an aneurism about the way Scotland is displayed on weather maps on TV. Then of course you have the example of folk explicitly going on about how they hate and detest “the English”, including if I remember correctly one of the posters you refer to yourself. That just makes it more difficult for those expressing legitimate concerns and calling for proportionate action to make headway, because they are tarred with the same brush as folk who are seen as fanatics or cranks.

If we want nice things, we have to vote for them: it applies to TV and the media just as it does to any other area of policy. The devolutionists haven’t delivered a vibrant, well funded domestic and Scottish centred industry and they obviously never will. Only independence can deliver it.

Mark Boyle

Rab Davis says:
29 November, 2022 at 2:02 am

Re: Robert Louis 10pm

On Sunday STV screened a game from the English FA Cup. It was Ebsfleet v Fleetwood.

Scots were not given any options here,,,it was just thrust upon us, whether we liked it or not.

On Monday in the Scottish Cup, Ayr played against Pollock. It was probably watched by a small number of Scots. It was only shown on local BBC TV.

Can you imagine the reaction from English viewers if this game was televised all over the UK, like the Fleetwood game was?

Think you’re disingenuously cherry picking your moments here – and before you say it, yes I know the Ayr/Pollok match had a bigger attendance, but considering Ayr and Pollok are only 45 minutes away from each other (32 miles) as opposed to Fleetwood and Northfleet (273 miles – five hours if you’re lucky) if anything it should have been a lot more.

STV are an independent channel on the ITV network, same as the rest. Nothing was stopping them not showing it and showing something else. Nothing except “couldn’t be arsed” – besides, football like soaps and cookery shows is easy duvet stuffing TV which people will watch “just because”.

And to put it quite bluntly, most sane people would sooner watch a TV match between – for example Blyth Spartans vs Bradford Park Avenue – than anything outside of the Scottish Premiership because the quality up here is so dire. The gap between the tiers of English club football and Scotland is appalling, and largely self inflicted by the utter morons in charge, but that’s another topic, but the fact is put Ayr vs Pollok on anything OTHER than BBC Dustbin and people will switch off. It’s the same issue the Irish League (Northern Ireland that is) and the Welsh face, and why talks about a “British Isles Cup” floated as some new “Anglo-Scottish Cup” contest are forever stillborn.

In any case, a lot of Scots DID watch the match as they’re now being managed by that icon of many a knuckle trailer Scott Brown, whose incredible skills and mighty intellect proved such excellent value for money for Stu’s very own Aberdeen that he almost got them relegated and is now doing the same down at Highbury.

Ottomanboi

Scots appear docile, given the circumstances worryingly docile.
What exactly does it take to generate real anger?
Cut the legalism, the endless tedious chat and get out on the streets….make the system «suffer» or continue to water your whisky with crocodile tears.
Zero tolerance of No You Can’t.
Freedom Matters.

Rab Davis

Stoker 8.49am

Very good post detailing how English Rule has destroyed our Scottish identity.

And that was BEFORE the Supreme Court ruling.

Ruby

link to archive.ph

Whitehall investigates independence planning by Scots civil service

What they are saying is since ‘the UK government spent £71,800 defending the Supreme Court case and Scottish government a reported £130,000’ to confirm the SG didn’t have power to legislate for an independence referendum civil servants shouldn’t be working on independence planning.

Jeremy

@Effijy 9.02am

When Sweden joined the EU they were not forced to use the Euro, another Tory lie that Scotland would need to if we rejoined.

When Sweden joined the EU it was 1995 and the Euro still hadn’t been launched.

That said, when a country joins now it’s true that it doesn’t necessarily instantly have to start using it as its main or sole currency. They’re obliged to “commit in principle” to joining the Euro for such a time as when they meet the criteria but there’s no formal mechanism where they can be forced to join at any particular time.

Chas

I read some of the comments from the latest’s articles and most reek of desperation. The BPHB at it’s best. Andy Ellis, John Main and now Joe try their best to counter some of the wilder ‘proposals’ but, in reality, to little avail. The same posts, from the same posters, keep reappearing time after time.

The majority are espousing some clever and novel way of gaining Independence. If Independence is ever won it will only come via one way and that is by the ballot box at some indeterminable future date.

Thankfully, Westminster and/or the Courts!! have decided that there will be no referendum next year. In reality this is beneficial to the Independence movement as ‘Yes’ would have lost again. The only downside is that Sturgeon would have been forced to resign, dragged kicking and screaming out the door.

The SNP is now dead, given the calibre of their Politicians, as no sane, educated Scot will ever vote for them again. It will take time for the majority of the sheep to realise how ineffective and incompetent the SNP are but, they will eventually. Voting SNP will be reduced to a protest vote only.

We are now entering a period of political limbo as no individual or Party really knows what to do next, despite all the tub thumping and emotive language. The first thing that has to be ascertained, from Westminster is exactly HOW Scotland can achieve Independence and WHAT circumstances will allow a 2nd referendum to take place. Once this is clearly set out, for all to see, then the process can start, hopefully without the SNP.
Once this has been identified, can I suggest, someone, anyone trying to inform the electorate of how better off we would be mentally, physically and most importantly financially in an independent Scotland.

I know that the above will not please the members of the BPHB but it is now time to think with your head and not your heart.

I await the abuse.

Ruby

Ottomanboi says:
29 November, 2022 at 9:16 am

Scots appear docile, given the circumstances worryingly docile.
What exactly does it take to generate real anger?
Cut the legalism, the endless tedious chat and get out on the streets….make the system «suffer» or continue to water your whisky with crocodile tears.
Zero tolerance of No You Can’t.
Freedom Matters.

Why don’t you tell us what sort of things we should do?

I don’t know if you noticed or not but Scots have been out on the streets many times. See AUOB marches.

Mike d

Great to see wings back again,
Loving the comments.

Andy Ellis

@Robert Hughes 9.01 am

There isn’t going to be a referendum, so I’d say that part of your post is pretty moot for now isn’t it? The only way a future referendum is ever going to be feasible if is there is a sea change in the relationship between the British nationalist establishment and the Scottish government.

Since both the Tories and Labour are staunchly in the “you’ll have had yer referendum, No meant No, get back to us in a REAL generation” mode, we can safely consign the idea of #indyref2 on the 2014 model to the long term.

“Conventional” routes are the only game in town, despite what the magical thinkers keep touting. The vast majority of Scots will have to be converted to supporting “novel” routes. Just how long do you or others think that’s likely to take? Even if it could be achieved in the short to medium term, that means nothing if the international community doesn’t see it as valid.

The onus is on proponents of cunning plans to answer the kind of questions asked, particularly as they should be bending over backwards to be open and show how democratically accountable these new routes would be, and putting clear water between their new routes and the current ones which they insist aren’t fit for purpose. If they can’t demonstrate that, the new routes will never work because they won’t get majority support from ordinary Scots voters, and will never be taken seriously abroad.

A majority for independence in a plebiscitary election is going to be very hard for Westminster to argue with. The arguments about that have been well rehearsed already: it’s much easier for Westminster and Scottish unionists to try and queer the pitch for a referendum than it is for plebiscitary elections.

As I’ve said before, it’s up to the movement as a whole to ensure the SNP doesn’t try to assert ownership of the PE concept and/or use it as an excuse to say that a victory in a PE is just another mandate to ask for / demand yet another mandate for a S30 order for #indyref2, or that it would need some other confirmatory step after the event. I’ve no confidence in the SNP, nor doI think they really know what they’re doing as Keith Brown’s statements reported yesterday amply demonstrate: they’re all over the pace on this.

If you’ve honestly come to believe the UK will never “allow” independence, and that conventional routes are functionally impossible, then I can only disagree. The alternatives would then seem to be a contested separation with civil disobedience and/or violence, or the forlorn hope that “cunning plans for indy” will achieve the results conventional means won’t achieve, and will do so sooner.

I see absolutely no evidence for that at all: little appetite or enthusiasm from ordinary voters, no serious academic, legal or constitutional back up or support, and no indications that the international community would accept or recognise such methods unless the process of trying all alternative means first has been followed.

Stoker

“Scotland’s top civil servant warned over independence spending”

OK! I see what’s going on here. It’s ‘the season’ so i’ll bite.

OH NO HE WASN’T! More BS from the right-wing Daily Mail with a rehashed headline on yesterday’s article. Which really just tells us some attention-seeking unheard of Tory has written to a top civil servant. Crying and showing his displeasure at the devolved Scottish Administration spending money on what they were elected to do. Strangely, for some odd reason, the very same article deliberately omits the hundreds of millions, if not billions, lost to BritNat Unionist Brexit.

Ruby

Chas says:
29 November, 2022 at 9:27 am

I read some of the comments from the latest’s articles and most reek of desperation. The BPHB at it’s best. Andy Ellis, John Main and now Joe try their best to counter some of the wilder ‘proposals’ but, in reality, to little avail. The same posts, from the same posters, keep reappearing time after time.

What seems to be missing is any ‘proposals’ from yourself, John Main, Andy Ellis & Joe.

What do you four think we should do.

What are your proposals. Will you just continue to put down others ideas and never come up with any yourselves.

Are you aware that your latest post is the same as your last 20 posts as you say The same posts keep reappearing time after time.

FAO Stuart Campbell.
Please note personal abuse in Chas’s post.
Is personal abuse OK now?

Republicofscotland

“STV are an independent channel on the ITV network, same as the rest. Nothing was stopping them not showing it and showing something else.”

Boyle.

STV’s output is controlled by ITV I know I e-mailed the b*stards why do you think we Scots get the stupid House Jock voice overs on the English controlled channel.

Sunday there wasn’t the first time STV put up two-back-to-back lower league English footie matches.

There is no Scottish content bar the news on STV, for instance if you want to watch say Taggart or Take the High Road you need to go onto the STV Player.

STV has sold Scotland out, infact it should be called ITV for it broadcasts ITV’s content.

Chas

Ruby

I assume you are unable to read and digest what is said.
Try again.

It would also be helpful if you actually knew what PERSONAL abuse was! No where in my post did I abuse any individual.
Must try harder.

Republicofscotland

“And to put it quite bluntly, most sane people would sooner watch a TV match between – for example Blyth Spartans vs Bradford Park Avenue – than anything outside of the Scottish Premiership because the quality up here is so dire.”

Boyle.

Would they..aye right, speak for yourself.

A bloke called Gerald

Like so many others that I had respect for in the SNP, what a disappointment Keith Brown’s turned out to be. What happened? It’s like they all turned into idiots when Alex left.

Republicofscotland

House Jock and numero uno turd at the staging post known as the Scotland office Alistar Jack, didn’t like it one bit when Britnat Lord Malcom Offord told him the Scottish government can spend its money on what it likes, House Jock Jack doesn’t want to see another penny spent on Scottish independence by a Scottish government.

Britnat Offord said.

“The UK treasury sends money to Scotland with no strings attached,” he said.

“It’s not bifurcated … the UK Government doesn’t do that. It sends it to the Scottish Government and lets the Scottish Government make its own decision as to how it feels best it should spend that money.”

Ruby

Chas says:
29 November, 2022 at 10:07 am

Ruby

I assume you are unable to read and digest what is said.
Try again.

It would also be helpful if you actually knew what PERSONAL abuse was! No where in my post did I abuse any individual.
Must try harder.

It certainly would be helpful if I knew what constituted personal abuse here on Wings. I’ll await Stuart Campbell’s guidance. Personally I find being referred to as a member of the ‘BPHB’ and being accused of not being able to read and digest what is said as personal abuse.

Any proposals as to what you think should be done vis a vis independence?

Hatuey

Andy, I’m supportive of the plebiscitary election route but let’s not pretend it’s conventional.

It’s virtually identical to the “cunning plan” Catalans pursued and which the EU resoundingly dismissed, under almost identical circumstances too.

Mike d

ROS,10:08am Now we know why a percentage of Scots are full of self loathing with comments like his.

Chas

Ruby

Once again, read what was in my original post.
Stop trying to be a victim. It does not suit you.

Doug

Any news about the latest census results? The number of people moving into Scotland from England?

Republicofscotland

Looks like the Britnat media has thrown sone sort of D-Notice over this astonishing info on the meg-theft of Scotland’s assets for decades. Thankfully the younger generation get their info via social media, and outlet for indy movement.

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

Republicofscotland

Mike d @11.05am.

If he is indeed a Scot, which I have my doubts.

Professor Alf Baird in his excellent articles on the detrimental effects on a people treated as a colony, is the one to swap comment with on this kind of self-destructive mindset that some Scots possess in this prison like onesided union.

Andy Ellis

@Hatuey

I disagree that it’s unconventional in the same sense as the various proposals being put forward for means that do not involve a popular vote are unconventional.

Irrespective of our views on the UKSC, the recent finding was useful in as much as it brought the issue of self determination and its place in situations like ours to the fore in its discussion of the Quebec case by the Canadian Supreme Court in particular. Whether that was the intent of the SNPs contribution or not I have my doubts, but nonetheless it did rather beg the question: if the stance of the British nationalist establishment and future UK governments is that Holyrood can only call referendums with the permission and cooperation of Westminster, and the terms of that vote have to be “mutually agreed” then the referendum route is essentially a dead letter.

We may be *slightly* better off than the Catalans in that Madrid essentially says self determination is illegal without the rest of Spain voting in favour of it, and is prepared to use violence and jail independence leaders to enforce its absolutist stance. Westminster is saying something rather different, namely “yes, you can have a vote but it’s not a unilateral right and it has to be by agreement”. So it’s not a “No, never…” response, rather a “Yes, but….” response. That allows them to present themselves to the international community as more reasonable than Madrid is with the Catalans.

A plebiscitary election is not -at least in my view and I think that of many others – as unconventional as the kind of schemes being proposed by some “cunning plan” adherents. As discussed (briefly) by the UKSC last week, the situations of Quebec, Scotland and Catalonia are not seen as the same class or order of self determination claims as most of those which have been faced by the international community. Different rules apply (and are seen to apply) to former imperial colonies such as those in Africa and Asia, and to cases where violence and oppression have been involved like Kosovo, Timor L’Este or South Sudan.

For Scotland to be treated as a colonial situation, and therefore entitled to use UDI, international institutions like the UN have to accept it as such. However much some who post regularly on here dislike it, the UN and international community as a whole simply don’t accept that claim. That’s not to say it’s impossible or will never change l, it’s just improbable given current circumstances.

So: a victory for pro independence parties in plebiscitary elections leading to independence is much easier to “sell” to the international community, to Scottish unionists and to the UK.

I know lots of those enamoured of “cunning plans”, Conventions of the Estates, petitioning the courts to dissolve the Treaties of Union, are absolutely convinced they are in the right, but the prospects of such non-conventional and extra-parliamentary methods bearing fruit still seems much less likely and to have a much longer gestation period, than just declaring every future General Election a plebiscitary vote.

Mike d

Doug 11:09am, you mean till it gets like this, search ‘prof danny dorling welsh brexit vote’.

Colin Alexander

Sturgeon has repeatedly said Scottish independence must be “legal” and “lawful”. By this, she means by an Act of UK Parliament given Royal Assent. That is not going to happen, as England will not willingly relinquish such a rich prize as Scotland.

Leaving aside the issue of whether there is sufficient support for independence, which can only be established by a plebiscite, we have come to the point where it is established that for over 20 years the SNP have been selling the electorate an indyref policy that only UK Unionist Tory or Labour Governments’ could deliver. A policy founded on bending the knee to the sovereignty of the English Crown in UK Parliament.

What now? The SNP are prepared to wait for the day when the UK English Crown is willing to deliver Scottish independence – a day that will never come.

The SNP politicians have settled for the role previously filled by Labour:

UK Colonial administrators and suppressors of Scottish sovereignty.

It remains to be seen whether any Scottish politicians will now address the new reality: that independence can only be achieved by Scotland’s sovereign people rejecting the “sovereignty” of the English King, the foundation of the fake sovereignty of UK Parliament.

As William Wallace is reputed to have said:

“He is not my Sovereign; he never received my homage; and whilst life is in this persecuted body, he never shall receive it.”

Compare this to Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond and Ian Blackford who rushed to London to pay homage to their English King and sovereign liege lord, King Charles III of England.

Republicofscotland

I had to laugh at wee Rishi Sunak’s government fingering pointing to the Chinese government asking it to respect the people and their democratic wishes, when back here in the “UK” his government has done and will continue to deny democracy for Scots.

Merganser

ROS @ 9.36pm.

I value all my toes so I shall refrain from dipping them in that shark infested water. Not a site for debate from what I have read. Looks more like a masochist’s paradise.

Geri

Let me get this right

A Scottish convention delivered our devolved parliament – rightly taking the fight *externally* to the proper international authorities that the UK was not upholding Scots claim of right & could kick the UK in the bollocks = wishful thinking Unicorn magical stuff?

A Scottish Plebiscite, that won’t be recognised by the UK government come divvy up day! The great day they relinquish the cash cow & hand over the keys to Sturgeon = fucking top class idea! Sign me up! Yay!!!

Pleeeeeeese!

What planet are you on?

In fact. Don’t answer. Yer a fucking wasp at a picnic on ANY & EVERY subject.

P.S. It’s absolutely zero of your business of *Who they are – who’s funding them etc*

Are you the Spanish Inquisition?

I bet you’d have loved that!

Robert Louis

I just keep trying to think up an even more ridiculously ‘britishy’ titled telly programme to inflict on Scots. The best I have so far is ‘britain’s best britishy brits – where Britain’s finest Brits battle it out to see who will be selected by the (groan!) ‘great’ British public, and be crowned Britain’s best Brit.

Seriously no other country would tolerate the nonsense Scotland get via the media. How long would Germans tolerate it if every TV programme, and advert was voice by somebody with an Italian accent, and almost all the TV programmes were about Italy, or from an italian perspective, and NO live German football was shown, just Italian league and international games. In Italian games against Germany, most of the commentary and puditry would be by Italians, with overt bias against Germany. Any German complaining would be called a racist and pathetic, with a ‘chip on their shoulder’.

Every now and then, however, English telly does make a programme about Scotland. It usually involves some ultra posh oxbridge type from the ‘home counties’, who once ‘did Edinburgh‘ as a drama student, and returns to explore the plucky Scots who inhabit this barren land, interviewing quaint locals and characters, or some such utterly patronising sh*te. The kind of thing Dan Snow might do.

Mark Boyle

Mike d says:
29 November, 2022 at 11:05 am

ROS,10:08am Now we know why a percentage of Scots are full of self loathing with comments like his.

Shit football is shit football. Grow up, accept it, and learn from it, instead of going for the kneejerk ‘dat’s self loathin’ so it is, wha’s lik us, we urra pippul!’ piffle of pretending anyone but the inbred wants to watch jumpers for goalposts football in their spare time in an era of multiple choices for one’s leisure time.

There’s a reason why even the American soccer leagues can find people willing to broadcast them outside of North America. People are not going to watch and thus advertisers pay for advertising for a piss poor product – end of.

If that sounds snide, name one other nation with a national broadcaster that’s remotely interested in showing any other Scottish domestic football match apart from the Weegie Ugly Sisters’ quarter annual Battle of the Boyne rematches.

You only have to watch the pantomime every time Doncaster and co. try to get a new telly contract or sponsors and even Harrid’s Convenience Store aren’t interested to know deep down it’s the truth. Decades of wilful neglect of the club game by those in charge and those who ought to have held them to account (ie. the likes of you) have returned to bite Scotland in the arse as the world not merely passed it by but lapped it.

In that, Scottish club football is a fitting metaphor for all that’s gone wrong and will remain wrong with Scotland forevermore, not only drunk on the cheap hubris of long past glories, but neanderthally aggressive to the suggestion anything is wrong up here needing root and branch restructure.

We’ve got the devolution – it’s long past the time we had some evolution to go with it.

Andy Ellis

@Geri

It’s absolutely the business of any Scottish voter to ask who is behind organisation and interest groups who are agitating for political goals. What possible legitimate reasons could any such organisations have for keeping their funding secret, or now telling us who lead them or how such people had been appointed or elected? You may be entirely sanguine about being kept in the dark about such matters, but more thoughtful independence supporters will not share your lack of curiosity.

We wouldn’t accept being told by some unionists Astro turfing group that it was none of our business who funded or supported them, or who they represented or how accountable or democratic they were, so why should we hold our own side to a different standard?

You’re obviously just a knee jerk contrarian lacking the wit to engage in reasoned debate. Your posts fairly reek of it, so no great loss if you don’t reply or read.

Corrado Mella

I wish more of you studied Narcissism, Sociopathy and Psychopathy.
Watch this video and go down the rabbit hole, if you have a strong stomach.

Learn to spot the signs.
Once you see them you can’t unsee them, and the perception of the person you’re looking at pivots immediately.

The Saint Nicola’s Party has been infiltrated by too many mentally ill people with an antisocial personality disorder.

We need a massive cleansing of politics and boardrooms from these insane defectives.

NOW, folks.

Geri

& I don’t know why Salmond or Cherry don’t use their position in the KC.

It’s a mystery to me why Joanna wasted more time on Brexit than she did actually using her position for the thing she was elected to do. Especially after being demoted from the front bench.

Maybe someone who isn’t called Andy can shed some light on it.

Scotland is a Country. The Scots are sovereign. Chucky acknowledges that or he’d have no union & he’d be out of a job as head of state when we’re Independent. Scotland doesn’t have federalism so why were non applicable examples given by the SC for *domestic law* ? So many questions. I know one thing tho. Andy is a cunt & if he’s a Yesser I’ll eat this device!

Corrado Mella

Well, the link to the video as formatted according to the Rev’s instructions didn’t work.

Let’s try this:

link to youtube.com

Republicofscotland

“Shit football is shit football. Grow up, accept it, and learn from it, instead of going for the kneejerk”

Boyle.

The above is just your opinion nothing more, if you prefer to watch lower league English football then that’s your prerogative.

Geri

Unless they work for me or I personally fund them then it’s of no concern of mine. You’d like to be up the arse of everyone & I’d doubt you’d fund the price of a cup of coffee to anything or anyone. As far as I know they aren’t looking for forensic accountants. The job isn’t yours.

& Don’t compare to a 24/7 prime time propaganda campaign by the BBC. They WERE funded by public TV licence & fronted by well known TV news presenters. Not exactly the same thing as a group discussion on the recently digitalised Acts of Union FFS!

Put yer DNA kit down eh?

Hatuey

The difference between our situation and that of Catalonia, Andy, is that Scotland is a country. We don’t have a seat at the UN but our status as a country is acknowledged in other places and even most Unionists acknowledge it.

I don’t entirely agree with the following but it gives good coverage to some of the issues raised;

“Firstly, neither the other political parties in standing for election in the Catalan Parliament nor the Spanish authorities recognised these as such, and therefore did not frame their position or the participation in the political campaigns and debates accordingly. It seems that the same would occur if such a referendum was held in Scotland. Secondly, by using the frameworks and processes for the ordinary elections to the Catalan Parliament to enable a “yes-no” vote on independence, the “plebiscitary elections” lacked many of the specific procedural safeguards generally required for a referendum process, and which strengthen the legitimacy of the overall result. It seems that the same argument would apply in the Scottish case. As a result of both of these factors, the “plebiscitary elections” on independence in Catalonia were also not recognised as such by the European Union (“EU”) or in the wider international sphere. Indeed, the Catalan pro-independence process was clearly framed within EU law and directed at securing the recognition and support of the EU institutions and member states.11 Yet the use of alternative pathways such as “plebiscitary elections”, rather than persuading the EU of the legitimacy of their cause, has been met with calls to support the rule of law and the Spanish constitutional framework, and with clear support for the position of the Spanish state.12 The EU’s response to the Catalan process is of particular relevance to Scotland, as the legitimacy of the process by which the latter becomes independent will be a fundamental factor for consideration in a future application to re-join the EU.”

link to euppublishing.com

I am guessing and have no reason to suggest I know the mind of the author, but I think her slant on these issues is somewhat dated. Brexit not only changed how Britain is perceived and received abroad, but throughout Europe and elsewhere the predicament of Scotland is better understood today, particularly so in regards to being wrenched from the EU against our expressed will.

There’s some interesting commentary on the dynamics of our situation in that article, and it is worth reading. It’s possible that events, political realities, and tectonic pressures are pushing us inexorably towards a climax that is unavoidable, and it may be that even Sturgeon, with all her expertise in screwing things up, will not be able to stop that process.

sarah

@ Corrado Mella: “St Nicola’s Party has been infiltrated by too many people with an antisocial personality disorder. We need a massive cleansing of politics and boardrooms from these insane defectives.”

Absolutely true. It is blindingly obvious but so many party members don’t want to see it and the ordinary voter has no idea at all.

Andy Ellis

@Geri

Careful now, you’ll have our new self appointed BTL monitor Ruby dobbing you in to Rev Stu Geri. You seem to have assumed the mantle as the new Ruby.

As for eating your device, it certainly seems like your mouth would easily accommodate a fair sized PC. I imagine people would pay good money to watch you chow down, but more likely you’re just another anonymous keyboard warrior happy to hide behind their own anonymity whilst (laughably) casting doubt on whether others are “real” independence supporters.

Same old, same old.

sarah

O/T: James Reid-Baxter has donated £2,060 to the iScot crowdfunder today!!

That brings the total to £5198, 20% of the target.

Geri

He’d probably have had a lot more if he’d laid off the block button LOL!

Business owners really shouldn’t use thier business accounts to go trigger happy tonto to thier paying customers. No idea why I was blocked. Think it must’ve been over AUOB spat.

Only one response to that. 4 yr sub blocked then, bye!

His mag was mainly full of adverts so must’ve been doing ok with paid advertisement. I know how expensive that is. A tiny space can command a high price never mind full pages.

Andy Ellis

@Hatuey 1.35 pm

The difference between our situation and that of Catalonia, Andy, is that Scotland is a country. We don’t have a seat at the UN but our status as a country is acknowledged in other places and even most Unionists acknowledge it.

I’ve never been convinced by that line of argument, sorry. It’s just Scottish particularism writ large, the “whaes like us, naebuddy an’ they’re a’ deid” school. I know it gives some of the usual suspects a warm fuzzy feeling to think Scotland is extra special, and the whole world should acknowledge our difference, but it ain’t necessarily so.

Most folk abroad don’t see Scotland’s claim for independence as different in any fundamental sense from that advanced by other peoples, whether Catalans, Quebecois, Basques, Felmings or anyone else. They might know a bit about our history, and acknowledge that it as unique aspects to it with respect to the Acts of Union, but other peoples also have unique aspect to their claims, whether language issues as in Quebec, Catalonia and Flanders, ethnic conflict or historic oppression.

The UN and EU contains many independent states that had no history of being independent until modern times, even if they had cultural histories stretching back centuries. Finland only became independent in 1917. The Baltic States only achieved statehood after WW1 only to see it extinguished then re-established. Slovenia had never had an independent existence until the break up of Yugoslavia and many of the other former Yugoslav republics like Croatia had been independent in medieval times, then had puppet regimes controlled by the Axis powers during WW2.

Slovakia was part of the Hungarian kingdom for almost 1000 years, briefly became “independent” as a puppet state of the Germans during WW2 then finally became independent after the Velvet Divorce with Czechia.

The point is that a colourful history, some 300 year old treaties, different legal and educational systems and a different state religion doesn’t mean the international community is going to cut us a special deal, or prioritise our claims over those of other peoples seeking self determination. Many peoples with less going for them and far greater challenges than ours have seized the opportunity to become independent, often at huge risk in the face of violence, oppression and social and political dislocation.

Scotland had the chance to effect what would probably have been one of the most painless divorce settlements in history in 2014, and its people couldn’t even summon up a majority to support it.

I will read the article you quote in more detail when time permits. On a brief scan through it seems a fair enough synopsis of the issues, and I largely agree with the overall point that in the end the solution to the kind of issues faced in Catalonia, Scotland and Quebec can only be political, not judicial.

That is also of course what wiser heads elsewhere like Roddy Dunlop have been saying since the UKSC ruling last week.

I don’t share your expectation that there is likely to be some deus ex machina hoving in to view to propelling us to some inevitable and unavoidable climax which will sweep the devolutionists aside. Nothing I’ve seen from the Scottish electorate gives me confidence they are about to take to the streets or convert en masse either to an alternative party from the SNP, or suddenly endorse “cunning plans for indy”, but who knows….?

Sometimes life comes at you fast. Doubtless the IPP never saw their rout at the hands of Sinn Fein coming until too late. We can but hope we see the SNP suffer the IPP’s fate sooner rather than later.

Geri

The UK has no written constitution.
The International community doest care about little England’s wants & dislikes. It’s irrelevant to them, just as Brexiting was which brought into sharp focus they were nothing special as each internationally recognised organisation demoted them to 3rd country status.
The only superiority they have resides in thier own head.
Scotland is a country. Legally recognised outside of the UK as being in a treaty & they also recognise, in International law, treaties can end & especially under conditions of it being repeatedly broken by the wannabe dominance of one against the other.

Geri

A Westminster appointed court to always find in Westminster’s favour isn’t internationally recognised.

Remember too, this is the bunch who found the prorogation of parliament lawful & they absolutely didn’t lie to her Maj when clearly they did.

They’re shysters. Cutting the cloth & trying to make it fit in the governments favour.

Scots sovereignty isn’t for a WM appointed English court to decide. It’s for a Scottish one.

Dragging in other countries constitutional arrangements to try fit ours is a nonsense. The UK doesn’t have one so to compare to ones that do is just colonial bullshit.

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:
29 November, 2022 at 1:37 pm

@Geri

Careful now, you’ll have our new self appointed BTL monitor Ruby dobbing you in to Rev Stu Geri. You seem to have assumed the mantle as the new Ruby.

As for eating your device, it certainly seems like your mouth would easily accommodate a fair sized PC. I imagine people would pay good money to watch you chow down, but more likely you’re just another anonymous keyboard warrior happy to hide behind their own anonymity whilst (laughably) casting doubt on whether others are “real” independence supporters.

Same old, same old.

FAO Stuart Campbell

More personal abuse from Andy Ellis.

Is it mainly women that he targets?

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:

I largely agree with the overall point that in the end the solution to the kind of issues faced in Catalonia, Scotland and Quebec can only be political, not judicial.

That is also of course what wiser heads elsewhere like Roddy Dunlop have been saying since the UKSC ruling last week.

What do you mean by political?
How would that work in the case of Scotland?

Ruby

If only Scotland was a colony we would have the same rights as Gibraltar vis a vis holding a referendum.

I find it weird that so many people are keen to establish Scotland is not a colony. Has anyone ever approached the UN?

I’m talking about establishing whether or not we are a colony not seeking advice on woman’s safety.

I believe that might be on Sturgeon’s list of things to do but probably only after she has passed her Scottish GRRB and when she finds out what ‘the woman from the UN’ is called.

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:
29 November, 2022 at 2:28 pm

I’ve never been convinced by that line of argument, sorry. It’s just Scottish particularism writ large, the “whaes like us, naebuddy an’ they’re a’ deid” school. I know it gives some of the usual suspects a warm fuzzy feeling to think Scotland is extra special, and the whole world should acknowledge our difference, but it ain’t necessarily so.

Do you not believe Scotland is a country?

Did you go along with the idea that Scotland ceased to exist in 1707 and became lesser England?

Do you think the whole world thinks there is no difference between say France & Belgium, Canada & the US, Australia & New Zealand.

Is there any reason for ‘the whole world’ to acknowledge the difference between these countries?

Why should people from these countries think they are special?

Stoker

@ Andy Ellis on 29 November 2022 at 9:08 am:

“Isn’t the problem that it CAN look trivial, childish and even bitter or racist at the fringes?”

Oh sure, that’s one of the problems, i’ll give you that. That’s a given that goes without say.

As for the other couple of points you raise. Firstly, if you expect me to converse with you (which i have no problem doing) don’t ever use any of my posts to get a dig at someone. I’m not interested in playing those games. And it’s every bit as bad a look as someone’s lack of control over their use of language. It’s akin to bullying and i passionately detest bullies. I grew up spending a lot of time trying to work out how to kill one. A brutal & violent stepdad. So i have a major problem with bullies, especially ones who coerce others into going against their target.

This site has a set of rules and a very good ‘contact’ facility, if you have a problem with the way someone presents themselves on here then report him/her. Do not engage or give them any traction. Some folks may question why you choose not to report him but instead attempt to hog & dominate btl threads by deflecting from the focus of the topic in question.

However, so as to prevent you from ever accusing me of dodging the issue/question i will give you a response on it this one time only. Yes, i agree with what you’re getting at. At best it comes across as excruciatingly uncomfortable and at worse it comes across as racist. Unless he states, ‘I hate the English’ i don’t see how “the English” (as you quoted) can be interpreted as racist. It’s all about context i suppose. For me it’s his use of “English bastards”. A lot more offensive and a lot easier to be interpreted as fringe nuttery racism. And if it’s not framed correctly, it does come over as blatant racism.

Anyway, who’s to say that’s not you behind that username attempting to disrupt threads and instill an air of fruitcakery about the indy movement? Or part of a ploy to disrupt btl threads? It’s not beyond the realms of possibility. You’re certainly intelligent enough to create such a sockpuppet. I don’t personally believe it’s you, but do you see what i’m getting at? That’s another reason why the rules exist, reporting it helps to determine such things and stops one individual taking over and destroying a sites btl section. Why bring it up btl when you could achieve far greater results by reporting it? Unless your purpose is to create btl disruption etc?

I tend to try and live by a certain guidance, not always successful, when it comes to folk btl. I will ignore, as much as possible, certain types of comments and if they’re exceptionally/blatantly racist etc, or even borderline, i would report them. There’s no way of knowing, most of the time, just by reading someone’s words there’s no way of reading them, the individual, unless they are stood right there in front of me. For all we know the person you refer to may very well be someone who isn’t capable of diplomacy or who’s bark is worse than his bite. We just don’t know unless it’s blatant. In that case we are required to report it and Stuart Campbell will decide. We are not encouraged to use the btl for determining such things.

I also happen to agree with ‘Al’ when he posted his objections about the same person. And i’ve noticed the same use of commas etc that Al pointed out. I believe it to be the same user who has had previous names on here. And i’ll bet he’s already got 1 or 2 more at the ready for when this current one gets binned. So doing what you’re doing is only succeeding in repeatedly disrupting btl threads.

You also always have the option of addressing a post to the readers regarding the issue you have a problem with, get it off your chest so-to-speak, bring it to everyone’s attention then leave it at that. You don’t have to address the individual or carry your beef over into spoiling any interactions with others. Again, Ellis, you have the intellectual ability to do all this. But for an apparently intelligent man you tend to let a lot of things get the better of you. I wish i understood psychology so i could work that one out. You’d make a crackin’ case for my couch.

So once again, this discussion disruption you are creating on here achieves nothing. Do not give traction, in any way, to the stuff you have a problem with and report it if it’s that bad. I can assure you, if it’s that bad you’ll not be the only one reporting it. But don’t ever use my posts in your games against others. It’s not clever and it insults my intelligence. I tell you all this so that should you do it again in future, you will know why i’m not responding to your post, unless i haven’t seen it.

Rab posts some good calm stuff at times, other times not so good and calm and a bit close to the edge. A bit like most of us i’d say, even you. You post a lot of good stuff but slowly taking over, is your constant mind-numbing references to, and use of, “Moonhowlers” and “Cunning plans for indy” etc. So much so that i’m getting a wee image of you starting to form in my head of a mad monk sitting cross-legged in a corner, hood up, facing the walls, and rocking to & fro chanting repetitively: ‘Moonhowlers! Moonhowlers! Moonhowlers! Cunning plans for indy! Moonhowlers! Moonhowlers! Moonhowlers! Cunning plans for indy! Over and over non-stop. It’s detracting from your good stuff.

Lastly, your relevant points on the actual topic we were discussing. The problems we were stating cannot be solved by money alone. The channels are all English and they’re all controlled by London. No amount of money will even begin to address that problem, which is the root cause of all the problems we raised. Full and total control.

As far as i know, if it’s still the same, Scotland only gets £80-£100 million back from over £300 million raised in Scotland. Even if we had full control over all that cash it would not even put a dent in the majority of the output. As i stated, the majority of the output is geared towards the largest part (population wise) of the UK, England. That situation exists only because it’s England that controls the sanctioning and licencing of channels etc. And the only way Scotland cures that problem is with independence.

But you are correct when you say the only reason we don’t have that is because the majority have so far refused to vote for it or get off their arses and fight for it etc. I don’t see the correlation between the iScot and the problems we were speaking about as it needs a lot more than money to cure those problems that exist. As you said, full control is the only solution, anything else is just attempting to paper over the cracks.

You stated: “Sometimes it DOES look and feel a bit overdone, like folk having an aneurism about the way Scotland is displayed on weather maps on TV.”

Possibly! But folk have every right to strongly protest such things. It’s portraying a lie and it’s a lie that was portrayed, and denied, for decades. Where anyone raising the issue was ridiculed, laughed at and dismissed as “cranks” & “conspiracy theorists”. But those folk doing the name-calling were nowhere to be seen when it was proven the BritNats had been distorting the weather map for decades to make Scotland look smaller and more irrelevant. And to put us in a similar category as Northern Ireland. The map may have been sorted out but pay attention to most forecasts, especially on BBC, and see how the politicising of the weather continues. See how Scotland is nearly always mentioned in the same breath as NI. It’s subtle but it’s a real thing. I’ve been witnessing it for years. Many others have too.

Realise this, not everybody has the ability of, or been trained to speak and conduct themselves like, a barrister, diplomat or politician. Or write as skilfully as Stuart Campbell, You, Breeks and others. Nor are most folk trained to speak eloquently on every subject every time. How arrogant is it to suggest everyone should act as you expect them to, lest they embarrass us? Some would see their protestations as neanderthal & embarrassing, yes, i give you that point, but the majority? I guess they’d see a touch of reality, a touch of themselves. Some folks can also be very easily offended when it suits them. And some folks are more tolerant than others.

The one thing i do know is that folk like that, who routinely criticise others for the way they speak, act or behave, are as big a deterrent to others posting as any other type of individual. I’ve seen it play out on a number of other sites over the years. One in particular always sticks in my mind. I don’t know if the site still exists. I thought it was called ‘OneScot’, but a Google search didn’t turn up any relevant results. Sorry, i can’t for the life of me remember its name.

Anyway, when i first visited that site i had this utter fuckwit respond to my first post with shit like, is that a capital or small ‘R’ (for republican) and is that with a capital or small ‘C’ (for Conservative). I quickly learned he was the resident equivalent to a ‘Bar fly’ (every site has them and WOS is no different. In fact, WOS has several, all different species. LOL!) and he was this way towards everybody. Couldn’t resist putting his ‘greatness’ on show. It very quickly became obvious why, over the years, this otherwise great wee informative site only ever had a handful of regular posters. C@nts like that deter a lot of folks from posting, afraid anything they might say will be used to embarrass and ridicule them etc.

And just like everywhere else, that fuckwit was never any match for the other guys on that site. Guys like Holebender & Shagpile, who very occasionally frequent WOS. And guys like one of the 3 or 4 moderators that site had. A bloke who’s name i can’t remember but sounds something like ‘Majestic’ something or other. These three names regularly put the arrogant twat back in his place. My point is, acting all greater than thou towards folk isn’t a good look. So what if someone wants to post irate opinion on a matter you might consider to be trivial. Not everyone wants to, or is capable of, discussing the guts & bones of politics. And unless their rant is totally way out of order it’s the height of arrogance to chastise them for it. Arrogant with a very heavy dose of intellectual snobbery.

FFS! There must be something in the water. That’s me well and truly smashed my ‘longest post’ record, twice on the same day too. And twice i’ve broken my own guidelines of trying to only create posts that fit within the screen to minimise scrolling for others when they’re reading. Oh well, looks like i’m going to hell after-all. Take a bow, Ellis, you caused it!

And just for good measure, all the very best of luck to Wales tonight. My heart wants Wales to win but the head says England.

((((( C’MON WELSH WALES! )))))

Viscount Ennui

Although I despise NS, Swinney et al, I suspect that their enthusiasm for indyref2 at this stage has been influenced by 2 critical factors. The first is that any move towards independence would have to be viewed as ‘legitimate’ by the international community. UDI is not, therefore, an option.
Without recognition there can be no trade agreements nor diplomacy. So some of the more radical slutions on this thread are probably non-starters.
The second concerns the fiscal position and the lessons learnt from the disastrous mini-budget.
Without a credible fiscalm plan, naebody will lend us money, or if they did, it would be at extortionate rates on interest.
I fear that the best option is for the pro-indy parties to dominate Holyrood but for that to happen, everyone must keep very quiet about the current incompetence and corruption that dominates everyday life and has done for the last 8 years.
Alternatively, the SNP holds the balance of power in a hung Parliament and wields some muscle in any negotiations to form a government.
So the solution has to be political but that would require intelligence – so it ain’t gonna come from the current administration.

Viscount Ennui

Ferries Scandal: Shipyard takeover ‘wasted’ £200m of public money

“Ms Sturgeon also said she “completely and utterly” refuted claims of political interference in the contract award, when she appeared before the audit committee earlier this month.”

Handy Translator: There was political interference.

Useful tool that translator. Recent results have included, “Yeah, I stitched up Salmond” and, “I am not that arsed about independence really.”

Mark Boyle

Republicofscotland says:
29 November, 2022 at 1:14 pm

“Shit football is shit football. Grow up, accept it, and learn from it, instead of going for the kneejerk”

Boyle.

The above is just your opinion nothing more, if you prefer to watch lower league English football then that’s your prerogative.

All our clubs out of Europe before the panto season starts – year in year out (bar this year’s once a orange moon fluke) – says shit football is shit football, and anyone claiming contrary is an inverted snob at best (usually those arses who drone on about “authentic working class atmosphere”), or someone so parochial they think Last Of The Summer Wine is a documentary at worst.

But then there’s some like you that will say El Dorado’s as good as Dom Perignon 1990 and argue that its just the sommeliers’ opinions otherwise …

Andy Ellis

@Stoker 4.41 pm

Firstly, if you expect me to converse with you (which i have no problem doing) don’t ever use any of my posts to get a dig at someone.

I’ll stop you right there and simply say you can GRTF with that kind of control freakery. I didn’t bother doing more than skimming the rest of your post and it’s super abundance of words. Try not to use 10 words when one will do. Leave the stream of consciousness stuff to the usual suspects.

I’m more than happy if you don’t respond or interact in future: I certainly have no plans to respond to you unless by accident or in the event you’ve said or posted something that really demands a response. Whether anyone would be awake by the end of one of your interminable posts remains to be seen however.

John Main

@Ruby says:29 November, 2022 at 9:53 am

What seems to be missing is any ‘proposals’ from yourself, John Main, Andy Ellis & Joe.

What do you four think we should do.

What are your proposals. Will you just continue to put down others ideas and never come up with any yourselves.

Not speaking for the others, Ruby, but I have posted a number of proposals for improved Indy traction.

You must be forgetting your often-posted insistence that you won’t read anything by me.

Sometimes the answer really is staring us in the face.

John Main

@Mark Boyle

Welcome back!

We’ve got the devolution – it’s long past the time we had some evolution to go with it

Classic.

We need more of this – keep them coming.

Ruby

Andy Ellis says:
29 November, 2022 at 5:45 pm

@Stoker 4.41 pm

Firstly, if you expect me to converse with you (which i have no problem doing) don’t ever use any of my posts to get a dig at someone.

I’ll stop you right there and simply say you can GRTF with that kind of control freakery. I didn’t bother doing more than skimming the rest of your post and it’s super abundance of words. Try not to use 10 words when one will do. Leave the stream of consciousness stuff to the usual suspects.

I’m more than happy if you don’t respond or interact in future: I certainly have no plans to respond to you unless by accident or in the event you’ve said or posted something that really demands a response. Whether anyone would be awake by the end of one of your interminable posts remains to be seen however.

FAO of Stuart Campbell
Another woman being subjected to abuse by Ellis.

I don’t think Stoker knows Andy Ellis very well if she did she would have kept her post very short maybe just one four lettered word. 🙂

Ruby

Anyway I’m interested in this political solution that Andy Ellis & Roddy Dunlop are suggesting.

How can Scotland who can’t ever get the government it wants and gets dragged out of the EU against it’s will have a political solution to anything?

Could the political solution come from outwith the UK?

Could it come from the UN?

Joe

Calls now being made for the £600K Donations to be returned , will the SNP have to sell all the now used Office Furniture it apparently paid for to be able to do that ? link to heraldscotland.com

Ruby

Joe says:
29 November, 2022 at 6:28 pm

Calls now being made for the £600K Donations to be returned , will the SNP have to sell all the now used Office Furniture it apparently paid for to be able to do that ?

What does ‘The Herald’ article say? I can’t read it it’s behind a paywall?

Joe

John Main says:29 November, 2022 at 6:01 pm
What seems to be missing is any ‘proposals’ from yourself, John Main, Andy Ellis & Joe.
What do you four think we should do.
What are your proposals. Will you just continue to put down others ideas and never come up with any yourselves.
Sometimes the answer really is staring us in the face.
————————————————————-
“Sometimes the answer really is staring us in the face.”
It is , it really is , do what the SNP said that it wanted.link to heraldscotland.com
Because this isn’t enough. link to scotsman.com
And WM agreed with the SNP’s 60% requirement ….
” Asked in reference to Gove’s comments to outline what he felt would show there was a “settled will” for a new referendum, Jack pointed to a figure of “60 percent” of Scots.

“If you consistently saw 60 percent of the population wanting a referendum — not wanting independence but wanting a referendum [to take place] — and that was sustained over a reasonably long period, then I would acknowledge that there was a desire for a referendum,” Jack said. “Anyone can see that.”https://www.politico.eu/article/scotland-referendum-60-percent/ so get out there converting No’s to Yes’s

Brian Doonthetoon

That “Probe of SNP’s missing £600,000 ‘ongoing'” Herald page was archived 4 hours ago…

link to archive.ph

BTW: it wasn’t behind a paywall for me. Maybe a site cookie remover extension is needed for your browser.

Andy Ellis

@Joe

There’s a difference between only 30% of people saying they want a referendum in 2023 and the % who believe that whether one is held is a matter for Holyrood to decide, or something that Westminster can or should dictate.

As far as I’m aware, on the limited polling evidence available, polls have always suggested that an overwhelming majority of Scots (i.e. >60% which must therefore include some unionist voters) agree that only Holyrood should decide when and how often Holyrood calls elections when they have a mandate to do so.

Indeed, I seem to recall that even Ruth the Mooth is on record as agreeing that, though perhaps she’s changed her mind now she’s in the Lords?

As a movement we should be very wary of British nationalists pontificating about super majority requirements. I’ll accept we need a consistent 60% when they accept that as the hurdle for things like brexit, or for the next government to take office.

Ruby

Brian Doonthetoon says:
29 November, 2022 at 8:04 pm

That “Probe of SNP’s missing £600,000 ‘ongoing’” Herald page was archived 4 hours ago…

link to archive.ph

BTW: it wasn’t behind a paywall for me. Maybe a site cookie remover extension is needed for your browser.

Is that because you pay a subscription or do you get a few freebies per month. I don’t need to clear my cookies I just use archive or 12ft ladder. I was curious to know why Joe didn’t maybe he’s another windup merchant.

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi Ruby.

I do not subscribe to the MSM. I use a Firefox browser extension called “Remove site cookies” when I go to a MSM page.
I also use archive.is and (more often) link to 12ft.io

Joe’s a guy who doesn’t think of taking hits away from the MSM by using these sites.

We can only try to educate…


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