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A whiff of something fishy

Posted on June 02, 2018 by

We must admit, folks, that our initial reaction to this Scotsman headline from a couple of days ago was simply a weary sigh of “Oh FFS, here we go again”.

Blaming the Scottish Government for a private company’s decision to close down its plant and make hundreds of Scottish workers redundant is just the sort of ludicrous negative spinning we’ve come to expect from the country’s press over the past seven years, so this latest example just seemed like nothing more than par for the course.

But there turned out to be a little more to it than that.

Because a quote from the Scottish Government’s business minister Paul Wheelhouse in the article made our ears prick up a little.

And then an alert reader put a little meat on the bones of it. Because it turns out that the company had an incentive to move the jobs down to the east coast of England – namely £1.3m in UK government cash.

The number of jobs to be created and safeguarded in Grimsby by the grant money awarded by Westminster a couple of years ago was given by the report as 450 – by a remarkable coincidence exactly the same number that are being lost in Annan.

And now it looks rather like the plan to create and safeguard those jobs in return for the cash was simply to move them down from Scotland. There appears to be a direct and explicit link between the money paid by the UK government to Young’s and the company’s decision to close the Annan plant and shift its operations to Grimsby.

Indeed, the SNP had warned about exactly that possibility at the time – although it had suspected that the job shift might chiefly impact on the other major Young’s centre in Scotland, in Fraserburgh:

And sure enough, hundreds of jobs at the Fraserburgh site were lost just months later (although it was kept open with a drastically reduced staff of 250, down from 900).

So in those circumstances, blaming the Scottish Government for failing to keep the plant open seems even more wildly unfair than it usually would. And readers might well feel that some questions could be asked not of Scottish Government ministers but of the local Conservative MP and Secretary of State for Scotland, David Mundell, whose administration oversaw the awarding of the grant which has now stripped over 1000 jobs away from Scotland, seemingly entirely by prior design.

We won’t hold our breath too hard for the Scotsman to pursue that line of questioning.

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    1. 02 06 18 14:56

      A whiff of something fishy | speymouth

    296 to “A whiff of something fishy”

    1. Cuilean says:

      The Tories have been asset stripping Scotland for years. Cars, rail, steel, coal, shipyards, you name it, they’ve stripped it.

      The hypocrisy of the Scotsman knows no bounds. How could their reporters not have uncovered this truth? Simple. They don’t want to. Just keep the Scots in the dark and feed them shit.

    2. Geordie says:

      Thank eff you’re on top of this stuff Stu. It would go completely unnoticed otherwise. You’d think the underlying detail of a story like this would be catnip to any Scottish journalist worthy of the title. You’d think, eh…?

    3. Gerry says:

      Sickening. Poach the jobs with govt money then blame Scotland for the loss.

    4. Hamish100 says:

      Once again the realities are the tories are England first, DUP second wrapped up in their Brexit unionist flag.

      Maybe the some of the Scottish fishing fraternity, farming retail and commercial and the people of the North East (no not England) Highland and island and the borders that it has to be Independence or Brexit. For the latter you are 3rd class citizens.

    5. Les Wilson says:

      Well highlighted rev, another “union” dividend, er for England!
      Shows just how snide these people are. Mundell must be right up there with the worst. This may also be general Westminster tactic over many kinds of business as a free Scotland approaches.
      Indy will reverse the issue.

    6. David says:

      That is shocking on so many levels. Thanks Stu for exposing this. Have sent Mundell a tweet for an explanation. I don’t know don’t expect a reply. Corruption springs to mind.

    7. dakk says:

      We all know the thick as shit Scotland hating yoons will be quite happy with this even when confronted with the truth.

      It fits with their ingrained perspective of Scotland being too wee too poor to stupid.

      The wonderful Grimbsbayan master fish gutters are just more worthy cos they’re English.

      At least Mundell is making a fortune out of his treachery.

      Most Britnat Scots, probably even some Annan fish processors are just too self loathing to care.

    8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The hypocrisy of the Scotsman knows no bounds. How could their reporters not have uncovered this truth?”

      Having been tipped off by a couple of alert readers it took me barely 20 minutes on Google to get all the info. It’s not rocket science.

    9. HandandShrimp says:

      What the Scotsman ask Mundell hard questions about his Government’s policies? Fat chance!

      Fair enough to Grimsby. They have to take what ever opportunities come their way. However, Mundell can’t duck the fact that he had no sway with the Cabinet even when it came to his own constituency.

    10. Alastair says:

      What possible reason could the UK government have for destroying Scotlands’ core industries? Beats me! Of course, after we have our Independence (coming to a Great Wee country near you soon) we should ensure that local operators are given the first bite at harvesting our natural resources, Bye-Bye Youngs! Also I wont be touching anything with your name on it again, just sayin.

    11. Highland Wifie says:

      Westminster is actively working against us. People need to wake up to this.

      They shed crocodile tears while explaining that it’s a purely commercial decision they have no control over. Meanwhile they’re paying Youngs to relocate out of Scotland. The media blames the Scottish Government for not doing enough and the man who is supposed to represent the constituents bangs on about no to a second referendum.
      How long do they think the people of Scotland are going to stay asleep?

    12. Proud Cybernat says:

      Don’t worry, Rev. Got me wee Union Jack fleg here and waving it like a mad thing to make everything okay again.

      Whew! That’s better, innit!

      FFS – wake up Scotland.

    13. starlaw says:

      West minster at its old tricks, closure bit at a time, just like Leyland etc. When Brexit happens Westminster will grab the farming and fishing rights. All Fishing vessels will have to apply to Westminster for a fishing permit. Conditions of this permit will be that landings must all be made at Grimsby.
      this will open a whole new industry in the only country they care about.
      I hope that now Scottish fishermen will get there heads out of the Tory loving bucket they seem to be stuck in. Only independence will save your industry and the jobs it creates for your neighbours and their children.

    14. Welsh Sion says:

      Speaking of hypocrisy, take a look at the quotations from Mundell (both pere and fils) un the following article:

      http://humberbusiness.com/news/70-years-of-scampi-celebrated-by/story-2112-detail/story

      Scotland: Know your enemies.

    15. Welsh Sion says:

      Also, seasoned campaigners here will remember that old Eurosceptic (when it wasn’t really fashionable in Englandshire) and Labour MP, Austin Mitchell, who used to represent Great Grimsby.

      https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2014-10-15/debates/14101591000003/GrimsbySeafoodManufacturers

    16. D. Livingstone says:

      Assume its Scottish salmon they are processing?

    17. I see the hack who printed these lies hasn’t even put their name to it.
      ‘Ruth Davidson’s Party donates £1.3 million to English Fish Factory to shut Scottish Processing Plants and expand in England.’
      Laugh your fat fucking face off at that headline Jackson Carlaw.
      We are definitely at war now.

    18. The Wasp says:

      Youngs and findus both owned by venture capitalists Lion Capital LLP. No more frozen fish for me then

    19. Hamish100 says:

      welsh sion

      Thanks for the link.

      One telling quote “..Made with succulent langoustines fished off the coast of Scotland and Ireland, ”

      I think they meant British.

      The ulster unionist of the Scottish Fishing fleet must be banging his drum in glee providing all those jobs in England.

    20. louis.b.argyll says:

      Youngs, now off my menu.

      If you worked at the Youngs plant and voted NO and are now losing your job, you brought it on yourself, by believing in ‘Better Together’ and other LIES.

      Support Scottish Seafood, PROTECT JOBS vote for independence.

    21. Proud Cybernat says:

      ‘Scotland pays England £112,000 to take jobs away from us’

      There has to be some way to end this total insanity??

    22. Bobp says:

      Hard to know who to be angry with the most. Youngs and westmidden for their deviousness, or the Scottish yoons who do nothing and allow this sort of backstabbing and doing down Scotland to continue. I really have nothing but contempt for these pretendy Scots now.

    23. Is State Aid to a private company even legal under EU rules,

      like State owned BBC giving UK taxes worth £80,000,000 to privately owned newspapers,

      “state aid is illegal under EU rules because it distorts competition in a way that is harmful to citizens and companies in the EU.`

    24. Former vegan god says:

      There’s your UK single market hard at work.

    25. Dan Huil says:

      Excellent journaism again from the Rev. Contrast that with the outright lying by britnat journalists.

    26. galamcennalath says:

      In a normal country, this would be a huge story.

      Normal countries have media which mirrors society, holds power to account, and facilitates informed democracy.

    27. K1 says:

      Shower of absolute sneaky bastards. Be sure and their lies will be found out, well done ‘alert readers’ and Rev for getting to the heart of this.

      There is no ‘journalism’ in Scotland, merely paid up lackeys of the Tories working in key positions in their branch offices, twisting everything to SNP/SGbad.

      Whilst I don’t wish anyone to lose their livelihood, nor local economies to suffer, this is exactly what those fishermen/businesses’ voted for by voting for the Tories and UKexit. Shortsighted greed and tae hell with everyone else is their motto and to cover that up ‘blame the SG’ for their own decision to slash their own staff and impoverish their own communities.

      But they’ll happily blame our government for the fallout of their devious machinations and shameless greed whilst demanding that our SG ‘do something!’

      GIRUTFLOT

    28. Abulhaq says:

      After Brexit Scotland will be made to pay! Whatever the cost, to us and many others, there must always be an England. England First, just like in the days of empire.

    29. Robert Peffers says:

      Something fishy right enough. When will the scales drop from the Proud Scots buts eyes? The Westminster Establishment are a right slippery bunch. Perhaps it is time to cry, as the French say, “mettre fin à”.

    30. HandandShrimp says:

      10,000 marching in Dumfries is mighty impressive. I’m hoping to be able to get to the Stirling one. Big thumbs up for the people out on this fine June day.

      I see Mr Union Shirt was there again 🙂 Where would he be without us to give meaning to his life?

    31. msean says:

      So much for pooling and sharing.I’m guessing that some portion of that 1.3m was pooled and shared by Scots. Paying in part for our own impoverishment.

    32. Calum McKay says:

      Best means to keep Scotland in this rotten union are to reduce the confidence of our people, undermine our economy and place the blame on the SNP. That’s what is at play here.

      Devolution was never meant to work, that it has hobbled along for 20 years is a miracle. The rejection of the return of EU powers bill (Power Grab) was the start of Holyrood fighting back, but I expect to see labour and liberals getting back into bed with the tories, once a few peerages have been agreed.

      Anything the SNP do is being attacked, be it a begign non partisian policy or a bold and innovative policy. The oppostion fear Scottish success. Sad to say they would be at their happiest if the country was on fire. The recent forming of relations between Davidson, Foster and Gove I see as quite sinister, the last thing Scotland needs.

      Sadly our press, or more accurately, their press, collude with unionist parties. Always have, always will! Unlike many others, I beleive the Scottish people are largely unaware the press, bbc and STV have been lying to them for years. If they were aware, the vote would have been won in 2014!

      I wonder how journalists at the Scotsman look at themselves in the mirror in the morning?

    33. t42 says:

      Treachery to his own constituents now.
      The ninth circle of hell is rewarded with a seat in the HoL.

    34. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I wonder how journalists at the Scotsman look at themselves in the mirror in the morning?”

      The look alright – but their reflection isn’t there.

    35. Arbroath1320 says:

      I’m no long back from Dumfries. Apparently there was some sort of march going on. I actually found myself at the front of this march, through no fault of my own you understand. 😉

      For anyone who knows Dumfries we were at Dockhead waiting to cross into Dock park and the march was STILL turning into Whitesands from Buccleugh Street.

      Nithsdale police have stated that the numbers involved in today’s wee shindig were 10,000. In fairness, having seen a number of photies from the march I’m almost inclined to think that number is the LOW end of their estimate. 😉

    36. Valerie says:

      I actually said on Twitter at the time of the Youngs announcement. Asset stripping, wouldn’t be surprised if there was an incentive to move.

      There was no tangible reason for the move. This is stepping up for Brexit. England will be laid waste, but they will try to soften the blow with little bits of good news about “jobs”.

      I would bet there is some other inducement by the local council, like business rates etc., because £1.3m is peanuts in the scheme of things. As it was first mooted in 2015, someone has upped the package.

      Grimsby is going to suffer, so this is a sop. Fish processing.

      If Scotland doesn’t wake up…

    37. K1 says:

      Police always tend to underestimate the numbers, so we’re probably at least 15 to 20 thou at Dumfries. Nevermind though…the Herald will be along tomorrow wi a photie depicting the carnage and ugly scenes between ‘indy supporters and 15 knob ends’ as ‘marring’ the event.

    38. David S. Briggs says:

      Echoes of Thatcher’s time in power. Hardly a week went by, but it was announced that another factory had closed and opened up again somewhere in England. There was a constant drain of jobs and Scottish hopes being syphoned off South. She decimated our economy and fuck me they’ve begun to do the same again.
      Things will never change till we regain our Independence. The reasons for a ‘Yes’ vote pile up. I wonder if we should allow any of our fishy product anywhere near Young’s new facility in Grimsby, when the glorious day finally dawns?

    39. winifred mccartney says:

      I have e-mailed Mundell, Davidson, Carlaw asking them what they are doing about this. don’t hold your breath, Ruthie is a master of ignoring everything except a camera.

    40. McDuff says:

      Another revealing article Rev and it makes me sick. This stuff has to find its way into the MSM and expose the Scotsman and its like for not only the sheer hypocrisy bur for the damage done to Scotland and its people.
      The National should be publishing this stuff but doesn`t, and I cant understand why.

    41. Andy-B says:

      Is thon Yoon laden, misnamed Scotsman no dead in the water yet, would the last person still buying it please stop it, you’re only prolonging its suffering.

      As for London’s man in Scotland Mundell, independence will rid us of him once and for all.

    42. Karmanaut says:

      No surprise the Scotsman didn’t mention the truth behind this. When you look at the comments on any Scotsman article you can see who their readers are. Grim.

      It’s reassuring to see that that group is so tiny now.

    43. robertknight says:


      “Scottish Government unable to stop
      Young’s Seafood plant closure in face
      of Westminster’s English subsidies”

      Parallel Universe edition of The Hootsmon where the headline is accurate.

    44. Street Andrew says:

      Easy solution.

      Don’t put Young’s products in your shopping basket.

      Better still…. DO put them in your shopping basket take them twice round the nice warm store then decide you don’t want them and leave them in an inappropriate place or at the till.

    45. Breeks says:


      HandandShrimp says:
      2 June, 2018 at 3:22 pm

      I see Mr Union Shirt was there again ? Where would he be without us to give meaning to his life?…

      Ha ha ha. I was chatting with an English fella as we passed the Unionists, who seemed a bit embarrassed by the Union jacks and big mouth with the load hailer. I just shrugged if off and smiled, happy to tell him not to worry, the loud one was just a UKIP reject with too much to say for himself.

      Couldn’t actually recall his name, but I remember it’s McConnachie now… I tried to remember the name of his AstroTurf movement that was a flop too, but it seems there’s just something instantly forgettable about McConnachie.

      As I actually passed by, McConnachie was rambling incoherently about the “hate” parading in front of him. It niggled me, because a couple of lines of people ahead of me was a wee lass of 8 or 9 wearing a tu-tu and some even younger kids were a little ahead of her. Hate parade? Shame on you McConnachie. You’re lucky your rambling diatribe was so garbled and distorted that it’s likely very few people registered what you actually said. You’re an arsehole. And I’m half way towards forgetting you all over again…

      But just a general observation… Not criticism, or having a go at anybody, but see for the post March speeches and music, do you nor think it would be a good idea to get a big screen and Phantom Power videos spreading the word about issues that need greater understanding? I’m thinking in particular about a 5 or 10 minute summary of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty… but then Sovereignty is my pet subject.

      There are a lot of folks, good hardcore Yessers who are still surprisingly ill informed about Scotland’s Sovereignty and Sovereign people, and the profound ramifications of what that entails. It might be really cool to get everybody familiar with the subject, and everybody singing from the same hymn sheet. Rather than leaving people entertained, we could leave them entertained and much better educated about a consistent core narrative. Just a thought…

    46. remo says:

      I am reminded of Robertson’s jam factory in Paisley where I had a summer job when I was at Uni. This was a Scottish brand – now subsumed into Hartley’s (except for the marmalade and mincemeat). The factory shut decades ago and the work went to England. Brown and Polson’s also closed. Coats thread also disappeared. Pretty much all this work disappeared from one town in Scotland – Paisley – where they were all founded.

    47. Cloggins says:

      A trade war seems to be going on in which a package is being prepared to swap with the americans. It includes fish, NHS, fracking rights and anything else they can grab before the unstoppable independence for Scotland has been finalised. By that time it is too late. The absolute bumbling over terms of brexit, borders, idiotic demands on Brussels leading directly to wto rules is in place to stop a UDI happening before March next year.
      I say, stop the monsters. Get oot of HOC now. It is an act of war against a neighbouring country

    48. Colin Alexander says:

      Well done contributors and Stu for revealing the truth.

      I feel sorry for the people of Annan and Langholm losing jobs. Both in the constituency of David Mundell MP, Secretary of State for Scotland. So much for the promises of the Union being best for jobs.

      Well done all those who were with us today in Dumfries, whether in person or in their heart.

      It was an inspiring sight to see all those people and all those flags: Saltires, Lion Rampants, Crosses of St George etc – and the bikers for independence at Whitesands.

      And WingsoverScotland at Dock Park.

    49. Legerwood says:

      O/T

      I see the BBC has produced a ‘film’ about the Faroes.

      It is on the BBC News web page under Top Stories. Coincidence so close to release of the Lesley Riddoch film?

      The BBC report seems to concentrate on the remoteness of it all – and the postal service!

    50. Torquil Hoochmagandie Ffluffington Smythe says:

      In the past the police have usually given the numbers involved in any type of rally for Scotland at a figure some 50% lower than the actual figure–have they seen the light and are now reporting a realistic figure? or is the same hidden agenda at work which saw one OP just prior to the 2014 referendum having a YES figure.

      Anent the rally itself, from what I could see, some 80% of participants appeared to be over the pension age, not a good sign for the future.

      The quango yclept Scottish Water needs carefull watching as I feel they would sell their Grandmother for sixpence or for a gong from H.R.H..

    51. Croompenstein says:

      Grimsby voted for brexit but now want an exemption I hope the EU tell them to fuck right off…

      https://tinyurl.com/y8l3npor

    52. Footsoldier says:

      STV currently under reporting that there were only 35,000 at the Glasgow march.

    53. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s lies, damned lies, and unionist activists.

    54. Capella says:

      Grimsby is also set to become the UK centre of renewable energy with multi million pound grants.
      The Grimsby Telegraph Dec 2017
      http://archive.li/YuHSW

      Then there’s the North East Lincoln regeneration projects designed to create 14,000 jobs. They are a little coy about where the money is coming from:

      Backed by private business in the town and the public sector it is dependent on joint investment from the council, private sector and government. A key element is the regeneration o old harbour areas with support from heritage England to tap into the town’s rich maritime history.

      Councillor Oxby has described the project as a “game-changer” for Grimsby. However, despite optimism when it was unveiled last year with the support of Prime Minister Theresa May, the noise surrounding the project has now become more subdued.
      There are concerns it has now slipped down the government’s priority list although in Whitehall, government aides insist there is still enthusiasm for the project.

      The Grimsby Telegraph Feb 2018
      http://archive.li/j9oZl

    55. Maria F says:

      Absolutely disgusting in so many levels and the press refuses to lift a finger to uncover this. The cherry on the cake is the fact that from those £1.3m, a 10% comes from Scotland’s taxpayers. So not only Scotland has to pay for this relocation with the job loses, lost revenues and loss of economic activity, but also as a symbolic act of further humiliation, Scotland is being made to contribute to this grant that will take jobs away from Scotland. I bear in mind that company. This is one yes voter that will never buy from them again.

      This union is an effing joke.

    56. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Following that Stewart Paterson piece of crap in the Evening times we should realise we have the abilities to hit right back.
      We could have rapid response printing unit that immediately tackled such rubbish for wide distribution in our town and city centres and we should have a Independence Live unit that goes to the homes of similar journalists and insists on an interview about which ever article was offensive for transmission all round the all the online outlets.

    57. Tinto Chiel says:

      An absolutely perfect analysis of what Britnattery does to Scotland, Rev.

      People should remember this when being preached at by Lefty “Independistas” who still secretly pine for warm, fuzzy Corbynite socialist solidarity in Britain: it only ever works the one way, comrade.

      Thought the Union Jackists in Dumfries today looked even more pathetic and deflated than usual. Was one of the grim-faced darkly-attired chaps beside the ranting guy with the manky UJ shirt not the one accused of kicking a pregnant Yes lady in 2014?

      Or maybe I’m mistaken…..

    58. Juan says:

      @Breeks 4:21
      Do you mean wee videos like this from Christine Graham:
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ychGT4dslrU

    59. Confused says:

      Title for a new Belle and Sebastian song –

      “Marisa doesn’t work at the Fish Factory anymore” (she got a job at the BBC)

      Setting fires, then blaming the SNP for not putting them out is pure CHUTZPAH

      In other news, if the Growth Commish Rep was a bit too grown up and dry for you, I offer you the EXACT OPPOSITE – a new country called WANKOTOPIA

      https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-01/welcome-bitcointopia-group-cryto-nerds-are-trying-secede-america

      – a place for all the neckbeards, 87th level ice-wizards, anarcho-capitalists, “Libertarians” and etc (- if it has misgendering laws perhaps we can persuade our own awkward squad to relocate)

      The Rev is awfy sharp these days.

    60. Shinty says:

      When indy comes and ruk is out of the EU. Scotland will need her own fish processing plants. Selling direct to the EU (and wider world) via our own shipping channels and air transport.

      I remember from indyref 2014. That Scottish Salmon was one of Branson’s Virgin Airlines (Heathrow) most valuable cargos.

      So a big FY to Heathrow and a long time payback for Prestwick and other Scottish airports.

    61. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      More jobs moving darn sarf. No more youngs fish products for this household.

      I wish we could do something about this…..

      Wait we can, vote SNP, vote YES at the next independence referendum…simple.

    62. Marie Clark says:

      Spot on analysis as usual Rev. I’ so grateful that you are on our side. Oh for a few more decent journalists who would tell the truth to the general public. But hell will freeze over befor that happens.

      Wonderful day at the march in Dumfries. I was absolutely gobsmacked at the numbers. We were round about the middle of the march, or so we thought. Tremendous numbers, flags whistles in front. Then we turned round for a look behind us. We were almost at the enterance to Dock Park and the folk were streaming along the Whitesands still coming round the corner from Buccleuch Street.

      I never for a moment thought that we would get numbers like that down here in oor wee corner o’ the world. Brilliant.

      As for the Britnats standing at Burns Statue shouting through his megaphone, sad, sad people. You couldn’t even hear what he was on about. Only about 15 of them. When we came into Buccleuch Street, there was one guy on his own with a union fleg, shoutin something. The guy in front of us said to him, your wrong, but hi anyway. That was the nature of the day. Great good humour.

    63. Legerwood says:

      Still on the subject of fish. It is not just grants from UK Government that is stripping jobs out of Scotland, it is also their hostile environment immigration policy that is threatening jobs.

      This Channel 4 report by Alex Thomson shows the potentially devastating effect on fishing and it’s allied industries. Barra – shellfishing – and NI are the examples used. Note the fishermen of the West Coast of Scotland were more for Remain than those in the East.

      https://www.channel4.com/news/the-immigration-crackdown-threatening-the-uks-fishing-industry

    64. yesindyref2 says:

      OT while I think about it, I posted elsewhere.

      The point I think a lot of people miss, is that that Growth Commission report is self-standing.

      In other words it requires consent and agreement from nobody, not the Bank of England, the UK Government, the EU, the ECB, nobody.

      But if any other deal is on the table, with other parties – like the EU – then it does not need to be implemented in full, whatever needs to be changed can be, including own currency from Day 1.

      The report is an implementable plan for Scotland on its own account.

    65. Gordon says:

      I for one will from now on boycott their products.

    66. Fred says:

      The Icelanders finished off England’s deep sea trawlers & when Scotland votes for Indy & the EU, England won’t have much of a fishery left. Grimsby seems a bit short-sighted!

    67. torquil fflufington smythe says:

      as two hours ago.

    68. Simon Curran says:

      How much to run off copies of this and post it through every door in Mundell’s constituency?

    69. Valerie says:

      @ Marie Clark

      I’m so pleased for the indy folk down Dumfries way that there was a good turn out. It’s a boost hopefully for all the hard workers that do distribution down there, over huge rural distances. I think it will be a surprise to the sceptics.

      I only managed to catch a wee video taken from within the march, as they passed the Burns statue. The marcher was shouting “OMG, there’s so many of them”.

      Had a wee chuckle.

    70. Robert Peffers says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 2 June, 2018 at 1:40 pm:

      ” … Having been tipped off by a couple of alert readers it took me barely 20 minutes on Google to get all the info. It’s not rocket science.”

      Perhaps not Rocket Science for normal humans who do their own research, Rev Stu. It is, however, a concept well above the capabilities of those, who laughingly call themselves Scottish Journalist. These who have only have two, (cough!), “reliable”, sources they are capable of using, unionist party press releases and The BBC’s newscasts.

      Some of them are even incapable of changing the text they cut & Pasted to suit the narrative they attempt to promulgate. Which narrative, by the way, they agreed among themselves down the local boozer that is frequented by the SMSM press representatives.

      At one time a researcher had to buy several Scottish newspapers to get a broad view of the day’s news. Now you just need to check the BBC text services. Of course the BBC long ago gave up reporting the news – now they seek to make the news, usually even before they have made it.

      It has become so bad that if the BBC Text person has made a typo the SMSM all repeat the same error.

      We really should not mock the afflicted – if we do the usual suspects on Wings will step in to defend them – as usual.

    71. Neil says:

      I watched “The Post” last night with Meryl Streep and Tom Hanks. Good film, with the underlying theme that a free press is a good thing.

      Line that made me smile was near the end when the US Supreme Court ruled in favour of the Post with it’s judge stating, “The Press is there to serve the governed, not the governers.”

      I liked to imagine a “Scottish” journalist watching the film, and hearing in particular that line, and that their fucking soul screamed out to them from beyond the grave.

    72. Ghillie says:

      It looks like Mr Mundell was expecting this devastating blow to jobs in his very own constituency since 2015.

      Sold down the river by their own MP.

      This is beyond devastating for the 450 families in Annan.

      This job-grab is catastrophic for the South West of Scotland.

      As was the loss of 650 jobs in Fraserburgh.

      Youngs no more.

    73. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alastair says: 2 June, 2018 at 1:41 pm:

      ” … Bye-Bye Youngs! Also I wont be touching anything with your name on it again, just sayin.”

      Me too and I was a regular buyer of Young’s stuff – now I’m an rx-Young’s customer.

    74. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s going to be wall to wall England in the World Cup for the next few weeks, support for Indy is set to soar through the roof.

    75. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev
      Ouch, I just got a phone call from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Unionists (ROSPCU) after some recent demolition of their ridiculous assertions.

      Rev, you must have received hundreds of such phone calls, some advice please, should I just ignore it?

    76. velofello says:

      “You’ve got to go where the fish are” is an old expression.

      Youngs move to Grimsby but the fish are landed in Scotland. Seems like an opportunity for a business tie-up (vertical integration) between fish landing and fish processing in Scotland will resolve the issue, and pose a problem for Youngs Grimsby if they cannot get the fish to process. The Scottish government would surely support a workers initiative to utilise the evacuated process plants of Annan and Fraserburgh, and a business arrangement with the fish landing fleet.A Guaranteed Minimum Price mechanism shouldn’t be too hard to devise.And finished product marketed as fished and processed in GM free Scotland.

    77. Ghillie says:

      Boris Johnston will be dead chuffed though.

      £1,340,000 spent in Grimsby is worth more than £1,340,000 spent in Annan.

      I hope to see this tackled in Hollyrood and Westminster.

      As for the ‘Scotsman’. Sinking lower every day.

      Well done Rev Stu and our alert reader.

    78. Ghillie says:

      I hope the amazing march through Dumfries today gave hope and cheer to the good folk there who have been dealt this awful blow.

    79. Robert Peffers says:

      @winifred mccartney says: 2 June, 2018 at 4:06 pm:

      “I have e-mailed Mundell, Davidson, Carlaw asking them what they are doing about this. don’t hold your breath, Ruthie is a master of ignoring everything except a camera.”

      Oh! Dear! That’s not you harassing a pregnant, (cough!), lady politician is it Winifred?

      Any moment now indy supporting, (allegedly), Wingers will be here to defend pregnant lady unionists politicians and no doubt will refer to a murdered female politician in the process.

    80. sassenach says:

      O/T
      Thoroughly enjoyed the Dumfries March today, what a show!
      It was said that ITV Border news would be covering it – and they did – whence the ‘main’ summary was given to Son of Fluffy who said we should not have been in Dumfries, because this is a unionist region!!!

      You can smell the fear through the TV screen. Keep tracking, folks.

    81. ailsa craig says:

      Just a thought following on from suggestion above about a poster to every household in Mundell’s constituency.

      Would it not be more cost effective for a local-ish Wings member to get a friend/friends to distribute about 500 copies of the article to the employees personally at the plant. One day’s work; minimal photocopy costs; maximum effect from the [no doubt] very angry employees. They would not keep that a secret!

      I am 100+ [awkward] miles away – but will willingly contribute towards costs if idea is feasible.

    82. Thepnr says:

      Rev, well done another scoop. Your on fire lately and long may it continue. Fairly enjoying myself at the thought of many clutching Britnat buttocks when you put a post up LOL.

    83. boris says:

      In 1974 a secret Tory Scottish Office report on fishing policy on joining the common market stated:

      “in the wider UK context they [the fishermen] must be regarded as expendable”.

      2017: David Duguid MP for Banff and Buchan

      “I have signed the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation’s Brexit pledge and I would challenge the SNP to do the same. I do not believe that this industry should ever be considered expendable and I will ensure that the views of our fishermen are heard at the highest levels of government. I will stand up for the interests of our fishing and farming communities as we navigate our way out of the EU.”

      2017: But the Tory government Brexit White Paper merely says:

      “Given the heavy reliance on UK waters of the EU fishing industry and the importance of EU waters to the UK, it is in both our interests to reach a mutually beneficial deal that works for the UK and the EU’s fishing communities.”

      10 May 2017: Tories accused of using fishermen as a bargaining chip in Brexit talks

      Scottish Conservative and Unionist leader Ruth Davidson will be in Peterhead today to answer local fishing industry leaders’ call for Scotland’s fisheries not to be a bargaining chip in the Brexit negotiations.

      She will do so against the background of a “bombshell” letter from Andrea Leadsom, the UK Secretary of State in charge of fisheries. In the letter she admits parts of the EU Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) will become part of UK law.

      In a letter to Bertie Armstrong, chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, Leadsom said the UK Government would try to “disapply” the most unpopular and unworkable elements of the EU CFP, but had to admit that some of the policy would still apply to the UK.

      Leadsom wrote: “No decision has yet been made on the extent to which the EU legislation governing the Common Fisheries Policy will be incorporated into domestic law.

      The Government will continue to champion sustainable fisheries and we are committed to ongoing cooperation with other countries over the management of shared stocks and ending discards.”

      Dec 2017:
      David Duguid: Fishing is a totemic industry in my constituency of Banff and Buchan, where there is real concern that the Scottish Government want to take Scotland back into the common fisheries policy.

      Can he reassure me that in all conversations and negotiations, he stands firm on taking Scotland’s fisherman out of the CFP, and keeping them out?

      David Mundell: My hon. Friend has already come to be seen as a champion for the fishing industry. I can give him an absolute guarantee: unlike the Scottish National Party, which would take us straight back into the common fisheries policy, this Government will take Scotland and the rest of the UK out of that discredited policy.

      2017: The Grimsby fishing fleet overfished the North Sea almost to extinction and their greed brought about the end of their trawler.

      But the Tory government is hitting back:

      2017: Grimsby MP, Melanie Onn has been elected to chair the House of Commons, All-Party Parliamentary Group for
      Fisheries.

      Ms Onn said her appointment would give her more influence and a better chance to fight for Grimsby’s seafood industry. “I’m delighted to be elected to this position. Thousands of people in Grimsby work in the seafood sector, and I will now have a bigger platform from which to pressure the Government into providing greater support for the industry. I said during the election campaign that I would fight for the best Brexit deal for Great Grimsby, which means holding the Government to the promises made to the fishing industry during the referendum, and protecting the seafood sector’s ability to trade with Europe.

      My new role will give me more opportunities to question the Ministers responsible for these areas, and to make sure they know how their actions will affect the livelihoods of workers in Grimsby.” .

      Other members of the committee are: Alistair Carmichael, Lib Dem MP for Orkney and Shetland, Sheryll Murray, Conservative MP for South East Cornwall, Peter Aldous, Conservative MP for Waveney and David Duguid, Conservative MP for Banff and Buchan

      Meanwhile, Martin Vickers, the Conservative MP for the neighbouring constituency of Cleethorpes has been appointed vice chairman of the Commons Iceland group.

      He said: “Three quarters of all the fish processed in the Grimsby and Cleethorpes area comes from Iceland and Icelandic investment supports hundreds of local jobs, so the country is very important to us.” (fish update)

      Calton Jock Comment: As an all-party committee the composition of 4 Conservative and 1 Lib Dem MP is disgraceful abuse of the electorate of Scotland. It is clear the Tory party intends protecting Grimsby, the main fish processing centre in the UK at the expense of all other outlets.

      Read the full report at:

      https://caltonjock.com/2018/02/13/david-duguid-mp-for-banff-buchan-elected-on-a-campaign-promise-to-fully-extract-scottish-fisheries-from-the-eu-common-fisheries-policy-nailed-by-the-lie-he-should-stand-down-as-he-foolishly-prom/

    84. Phronesis says:

      Well done Dumfries AUOB- democracy on the march. The YES movement is in fine fettle.

      A report about Scotland’s fishing industry from 2004 & its conclusions remain relevant today. Isn’t it amazing the number of reports that recommend how Scotland’s industries can be sustained and yet the opposite keeps happening. There is a remedy for that.

      ‘8. …Withdrawal altogether from the EU would have major and damaging consequences for the Scottish economy… Withdrawal would have to be followed by negotiations with the EU on behalf of the member states with whom Scotland has traditionally shared fisheries as well as with countries outside the EU such as Norway, Iceland and the Faroe Islands. Even for fishermen, it is doubtful this would lead to any better situation than currently exists under the CFP.

      9. Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population, but landed 62% by value of the total fish catch in 2002. Fishing is of much greater importance to Scotland than to the UK as a whole. Direct employment in catching, aquaculture, and processing amounts to 19,800, just under 1% of total Scottish employment; if indirect effects are taken into account, the total employment dependent on these industries rises to 48,000, roughly half the direct and indirect employment dependent on North Sea oil at its peak

      18. The processing industry in Scotland represents 49% of the UK total, employs more people than the catching industry and much of it is currently in a healthy state.

      64. But provided the industry is well managed and on a basis that is sustainable, we envisage a good future for the industry. It should continue to play a key part in Scotland’s economy and providing a livelihood for the fishing dependent communities’

      http://www.rse.org.uk/inquiries/the-scottish-fishing-industry/

    85. Marker Post says:

      I wonder what Bertie Armstrong’s reaction to this will be? He clearly has supporers in the north east. I used to live in the Broch, in fact I had a summer job at Macrae’s fish factory.

      I haven’t been back for years. But if I did, I would be sorely tempted to print off a couple of hundred copies of this article, and leave them lying around the various pubs down the harbour area. Everyone in Fraserbugh has some relative who worked in Macrae’s. I would love to see the fishermen thrust this in Bertie Armstrong’s face, or David Mundell’s face if he ever plucked up the courage to visit there, and demand answers.

    86. Robert Peffers says:

      @HandandShrimp says: 2 June, 2018 at 3:22 pm:

      ” … do you nor think it would be a good idea to get a big screen and Phantom Power videos spreading the word about issues that need greater understanding? I’m thinking in particular about a 5 or 10 minute summary of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty… but then Sovereignty is my pet subject.”

      It is a fascinating subject, Handandshrimp, but the methods and distortions of taught history tends to put people off the subject for life. Any way, to that end, it is little realised that if Robert Bruce had been blamed for killed the Red Comyn and subsequently got himself excommunicated the people of Scotland would probably all have English subjects of Her Majesty now. Look though at the true events:-

      No doubt there was an armed conflict between Bruce and the Comyn and the Comyn came of worst. That though is the extent of the evidence. As the pair were alone in the High Kirk of Dumfries no one but Bruce knew who had attacked first.

      If it was Bruce he was at least guilty of assault but both men were armed and we are talking the days of Divine Right of Kings as the Rule of Law but neither man was then a King. It is recorded that Roger de Kirkpatrick said “You doubt. Ise mac siccar.” – (I’ll make sure). Kirkpatrick then, “Made sure”, that The Red Comyn was dead. They didn’t sophisticated medical equipment in those days. How would an armed man, “mac sicca”?

      Did Kirkpatrick kill the Red Comyn?

      Then things moved on and Bruce was crowned King of Scotland and Scotland was, to all intents and purposes, still under Divine Right of Kings but had won the crown by default and by the death of The Comyn while neither were monarchs.

      Yet the English Monarch, who had then the ear of the Pontiff, persuaded the Pope to excommunicate The Bruce and, even although the accusation was unproven and before his crowning, when a Monarch was excommunicated all his/her belongings were also excommunicated and that applied to everyone in the Kingdom of Scotland. History writes that every church service in the Kingdom of England were ordered to curse Scotland before every church service began. Scotland and her people were in dire distress.

      However, in the meantime, the King of England was, among other things, setting himself up as the leader of the Christian faith in England and thus was usurping the Pontiff – who wasn’t best pleased. At which point The Declaration of Arbroath arrived at The Vatican and the Pope, leader of all Christendom accepted it as a whole.

      The reason being that the Declaration did not just declare Scotland as an independent kingdom but declared that under Scottish Law the people had legal right to sack an unsuitable monarch and replace him/her. Scotland had now, in the eyes of the then international authority, ceased to be bound by the Laws of divine Right of Kings and Wee Scotland in 1320, was as usual, way ahead of the rest

      Granted that the Kingdom of England, by then three countries, made changes to their Divine Right of Kings Rule of Law in 1688, but these were only minor adjustments because, to this day, The Monarch of the Kingdom of England is still legally sovereign.

      The change was made because the English Parliamentarians rebelled against their rightful monarch and replace him with the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary but then claimed, (illegally), that their actions had also applied to the still independent Kingdom of Scotland and they called those fighting to retain their rightful monarch, “Jacobite Rebels”, but as Scotland was an independent kingdom, they could not rebel against a foreign monarch.

      Today, the Queen of England is still legally Sovereign but has to legally delegate her Divine Right, (Sovereignty), to “The Kingdom of England Parliament”.

      Now, correct me if I am wrong, but did not the last Parliament of The Kingdom Of England”, vote itself in permeant recession in April 1707? No Parliament of the Kingdom of England has sat since May 1 1707. and Scots monarchs are NOT sovereign.

      In Short Westminster has been illegally exercising sovereignty over Scots and Scotland since 1 May 1707 and all because Robert Bruce was illegally ruled to have Killed the Comyn when no evidence exists he did no more than defend himself – Under Scots law there was only two verdicts – Proven and Not Proven. In English law there was either Guilty or Not Guilty.

      However, in a 1728 murder trial, the Scottish jury asserted “its ancient right” to declare a defendant “not guilty”. Over time this resulted in the verdicts becoming Guilty or not guilty but retained the Not Proven verdict. This is NOT either a guilty or not guilty verdict and, in light of further evidence can be commuted either way.

      So, in essence, what happened to Bruce should have been a Not Proven verdict but was treated as a guilty verdict then commuted to not guilty or perhaps, Not proven.

      Westminster have much form of ignoring Scots law and illegally applying English law that is not legal under Scots law and claiming Westminster sovereignty over Scotland is only one of them.

    87. twathater says:

      velofello says: @ 7.55pm The Scottish government would surely support a workers initiative to utilise the evacuated process plants of Annan and Fraserburgh, and a business arrangement with the fish landing fleet.A Guaranteed Minimum Price mechanism shouldn’t be too hard to devise.And finished product marketed as fished and processed in GM free Scotland.

      This would be a massive coup for the SG , could you picture the consternation and blood vessel bursting reaction this would cause to fluffy and the local brit nats

      Alternatively there must be some entrepreneur who would be willing to invest in a proven viable business

      The question is would the SG be permitted to make a business loan to a cooperative group of former employees who have a willing and experienced workforce ready to resurrect a successful business

      Personally if I were in the former employees position I would be amenable to a job which paid just over JSA with a condition that it would be reviewed after a year pending growth . Lets be honest JSA is shit but so is unemployment , if there are other jobs available fair enough but sitting about all day is soul destroying and confidence crushing , also this would be a massive FY to Youngs

    88. Big Jock says:

      This is exactly what Brexit will bring. They want to protect jobs in England. They want to make Scotland desert and therefore make independence impossible!

      That’s why we need our referendum in the next 10 months.

    89. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This would be a splendid time for any lurking switherers to stop swithering and abandon ‘lurker’ status by introducing themselves.

      History is being made right now and it’s all the more impressive because, as noted by Rev on the Twitter, what happened today in Dumfries was organised by properly grass-roots non-party-affiliated groups. Same with the Glasgow AUOB gig, and the ones to come.

      Perhaps some of us are too close to it to realise how extraordinary it all is, but it would be properly special if even one fresh face would appear here as a direct result of what happened today.

      Any takers?!

      We don’t bite!

      😉

    90. Ian Foulds says:

      Remo at 4.30pm

      I remember them well and hate the fact they are no more, as Paisley was my home town and I despair of what it has become.

      Ian

    91. galamcennalath says:

      BritNat, British Nationalists – it’s a better term than Unionists because there is no meaningful Union and adherents to the UK don’t want a Union, they want London rule.

      Are English folks BritNats? I do have my doubts. To so many, England = ‘Britain’. Do they mean the island? No, they mean a single state in the image of England.

      The longer this all goes in, the more I think it’s about England and Greater England. Again, these merge in many people’s minds.

      So, those Scots (and Northern Irish) who believe in one unified state under London rule, do they see it as anything other than a Greater England?

      Perhaps they should all simply be Greater Englanders.

    92. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      What other country in the world would use taxation collected from all citizens to induce a private company to close it’s operations in one part of that country denying the workers their jobs and moving its operations to another part of the country providing jobs there.

      How do the British Nationalist regime explain that?

      Wait till the Unions hear about this watch this space there will be trouble.

      Oh no sorry my mistake its just Scottish jobs thats all right then. Cancel that union alert.

      Just love it better together.

    93. Jim says:

      Young’s can now take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut as I and I’m sure many others will never buy one of their products ever again.

    94. Robert Peffers says:

      @remo says: 2 June, 2018 at 4:30 pm:

      “I am reminded of Robertson’s jam factory in Paisley where I had a summer job when I was at Uni. This was a Scottish brand – now subsumed into Hartley’s (except for the marmalade and mincemeat). “

      Matter of fact, remo, Westminster has been at this game since long before the Treaty of Union. Did not all the Henrys and Edwards all claim to be monarchs or at least Lords over the Scots monarchy and hence the never ending Scotland vs England wars of independence? Upthread I quote the tillle matters of the so called but not ever legally happening Union of /t/he Crowns that the only person it was actually a personal union was the joint monarchs themselves.

      Even Elizabeth I of England claimed to have sovereignty over Scotland and had her rival executed but Mary was NOT Queen of Scotland but Queen of Scots. James I of England was designated also James VI of Scotland.

      Yet Westminster claimed that the Battle of Culloden was England Vs Jacobite Rebels but as the Jacobites were fighting to retain the rightful monarch of Scots they could not rebel against the King of the still independent England and Culloden was nearly 40 years AFTER the Treaty of Union but was plainly a Scotland Vs England battle.

      Furthermore, the main threat that fuelled the forced signing of the Treaty of Union was due to the English Navigation Acts that not only caused wars between England and most continental European nations but directly led to the American war of Independence and the disastrous Darian Expedition was engineered by the English Spy master, Sir Robert Harley, and London Scot William Paterson one of Haley’s paid agents, along with the other, Daniel Defoe.

      Westminster and the English royalty have been at this robbery of Scotland since the Romans left south Britain.

    95. Meg merrilees says:

      Jason Smoothpiece

      Don’t you remember it’s called ‘Pooling and sharing’ except now they are spelling it
      ‘pulling’ as in pulling the jobs away from one area to share out in another nearer one.

      T May wants control of all agriculture, fishing and food production for the next 7 years and unfortunately these are areas that we are very good at. She also wants control of all dumping and environmental stuff so just watch as they offer us all the nuclear decontamination stuff and other nasties.

      If they can’t get it to operate south of Gretna then they are trying to rebrand it with the Butcher’s Apron – it’s really just an extension of peeing on every lamppost syndrome.

    96. stewartb says:

      galamcennalath @ 9:52 pm

      You write: “BritNat, British Nationalists – it’s a better term than Unionists because there is no meaningful Union and adherents to the UK don’t want a Union …”

      I agree. And in addition, I have come to the conclusion that the descriptor ‘Unionist’ is too mild, too accommodating – after all, in other, non-political situations, a ‘union’ is generally regarded as a positive thing. We need to frame this differently – and not permit our opponents’ preferred framing to dominate.

    97. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 2 June, 2018 at 4:56 pm:

      ” … It was an inspiring sight to see all those people and all those flags: Saltires, Lion Rampants, Crosses of St George etc – and the bikers for independence at Whitesands.
      And WingsoverScotland at Dock Park.”

      I fail to understand those Scots who fly the Lion Rampant for it is the Personal Flag of the Scots monarchy and the current Queen of Scots is far from supporting her legally sovereign people of Scotland in their times of need for the leader and protector of the people of Scotland’s sovereignty that she is supposed to be.

      The declaration of Arbroath that declared the people as sovereign also stipulates they have the right to throw out a failed protector of the people’s sovereignty.

      Perhaps we could legally give Auld Lizzie and her progeny the heave Ho and appoint someone, more able, to do the job.

      Maybe another King Alexander, (or Alex or Eck), or perhaps a Nicola the First.

      Better still just become a republic and retain Nicola as FM and make Alex the first elected President of an independent Scotland.

    98. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T.
      Wingers/Lurkers/Yessers
      Many thanks to all for supporting the Wings Stall at Dumfries March

      Donations to the Wings ( Stu )
      Chris Bell £10
      Nuggets o’pish £ 5 Monies will be pasted on this week Many Thanks .

      Mark Frankland 1st Base Foodbank Dumfries
      Wings Stall collected £ 225 via Donations bucket
      Wings Stall donated £200 from Ding ah ling Till
      Total £425.

      iScot donation bucket £35
      Wings Stall donation £50
      Total £85.

      Betty Boop gave up counting after 3 counts lol it wiz ah long tiring day , so’s Bdtt an me will count the till tomorrow .

      Many Thanks to all the Stall team Betty Boop/ BDTT/ Lolliesmum/Wee Annie Jenkins & Smallaxe & Mrs Smallaxe / & Bill Glen for the rolls .

    99. Dr Jim says:

      David Cameron started this in 2014 when he called in the supermarkets to frighten Scots about price hikes then when he won immediateley began the Union flag labelling.. eh…and don’t tell me the Brexit vote was a surprise to the Tories
      I don’t believe it for a nano second

      McConnachie was rambling about our 5000year Union and something else about Noah and his magic Zoo Boat again he’s beginning to sound like a more deranged version of the DUP now

      Good on the Dumfries polis for catching on quick we were the good guys, nice relaxed easy policing today,their eyes were on the Britnat nutters not us, and lovely to see the wee bunch of brain dead toddlers being shoved back into the pub where they tried to creep out of

      Loads of good wee films for everybody on peoples facebooks
      even saw myself on TV ..I look so old, bloody ghastly sight

    100. Robert Louis says:

      I don’t know much about the fishing industry, but I do hope the Scotgov will look into re-opening the plants, as viable entities.

      Does this not mark the dying gasps of the tawdry undemocratic, and unwanted ‘union’ with England? London paid this company to deliberately and wilfully remove jobs from Scotland. It is nothing short of a f*****g disgrace. It really is.

      What are the so-called benefits of this cursed union with England?? This?? London paying English companies to remove jobs in Scotland.

      London and Westminster can go to hell. They are a curse on Scotland and its people. The sooner Scotland throws off these English colonial shackles, the better. It cannot come too soon.

      And Young’s can go swivel if they think they’ll sell much in Scotland now. Hope they go out of business.

      (I don’t doubt Davidson will avoid the press for a few days. Coward).

    101. Lollysmum says:

      My grandson & I took part in the Dumfries march today. We were quite near the front but walking behind English Scots for Yes. What struck me today was the fact that the streets were lined with onlookers on both sides of the march. Far more spectators than is usual were filming using their mobiles but I wonder just how many realised that they were smiling broadly whilst filming. I’d never seen that happen with previous marches

      Many spectators were holding flags,balloons, signs etc but not marching-was this the local people of Dumfries & surrounding areas lending their support to the march whilst not physically taking part? I wonder!! 🙂 🙂

    102. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Meg merrilees

      Its okay joking Meg but I think its very sinister, what causes me wind is the deafening silence from the trade unions they have to say something they can no longer get away with silence.

    103. Clydebuilt says:

      10pm BBC Radio Scotland News . . . Reported on today’s March in Dumfries. . . . Then this,
      “today’s March follows on from last months March in Edinburgh where 35,000 marched”

    104. Donald anderson says:

      Hootsmon not in my name.

    105. Legerwood says:

      Is it not the case that Youngs itself has been put up for sale? I think an announcement to that effect was made back in April.

    106. Rick H Johnston says:

      Aye, We had the same reaction from Dumfries folk. One young English lad saying he had missed the march through work but would have joined in.
      Gied him info about Bannockburn
      Seems there’s a change on.

    107. Croompenstein says:

      GMS had it as the Scottish Govt promising it would leave no stone unturned to try and save the factory and had Paul Wheelhouse on to defend the govt and not once did they mention Mundell is the local MP.

      They are circling the wagons around Fluffy he must be brought to account for this betrayal.

    108. Gary45% says:

      Croomps@11.14
      Guaranteed GM Shortbread on “Monday am” if not before, will be calling for Mr Wheelhouse to step down.
      Its FKING Brexit and AUSTERITY from the most useless, incompetent bunch of arseholes at Westminster that have caused the biggest FK UP in my living memory, although Zionism has a big part to play, the truth will come out in the end.
      Zionism trying to control the Middle East, America, and the dismantling of Europe.= World Domination.
      Simples.

    109. Still Positive says:

      Hadn’t seen Youngs products for years until they suddenly appeared a few weeks ago.

      Won’t be buying them again.

    110. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      When there is not a succession of opinion polls coming out one smells a rat – and Woof Davidson’s sudden change of position on a whole range of things strengthens that feeling.

      Is the Tory vote in Scotland tanking perhaps at the moment?

    111. K1 says:

      O/T

      In other good news 😉

      The (who we all knew he was) right wing nut job (‘conservative British historian’ lol) Niall Ferguson has had to resign from his ‘prestigious’ post at Stanford University in the good ole USA.

      Apparently leaked emails from his account confirm what we all knew about him…that he’s an absolute zoomer and a total arse: Here’s a wee paragraph about what he was up tae:

      ‘In one email sent to various conservative students, including John Rice-Cameron, the president of Stanford College Republicans and the son of Susan Rice, a former national security adviser to Barack Obama, Ferguson confides: “Now we turn to the more subtle game of grinding them down on the committee. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. “Unite against the [social justice warriors],” he instructed students in another email, urging them “to bury whatever past differences they may have for the common good”.

      Rice-Cameron replies: “Slowly, we will continue to crush the left’s will to resist, as they will crack under pressure.”

      Murray spoke on 22 February after students had complained to the university’s president, Marc Tessier-Lavigne, and expressed their disapproval at his inclusion in the debate series.’

      http://archive.is/eKNv6

      He’ll be no doot front and centre Indyref2…wonder how ‘that’ conversation will go wi our real Scottish historian Tom Devine in the studio then? Hahahaha….to infinity and beyond.

    112. ben madigan says:

      was glad to see the march in Dumfries was such a success today
      Onwards and upwards to the next one!

      O/T a little interlude – enjoy!

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2018/06/02/northern-irelands-agony/

    113. Confused says:

      Niall Ferguson is at the high end of the intellectual prostitutes – about 3 divisions above ordinary newspaper journalists.

      He is adored and deferred to as if he was a genius – but he is not, simply the (current) court historian of the Anglo American Empire. It’s a nice life, a good slot in the corporation.

      Anything in his work which is true and good, can be found better, in more depth and with more insight in Carroll Quigley’s “Tragedy and Hope” (- who was not a mere cheerleader either)

      Pricks like this are often wheeled out to impress and intimidate us – no one should be – his work is excrement and he’s an arse.

    114. Kangaroo says:

      Gary 45% @ 11:30pm

      Hit the nail on the head there Gary. If only more people were awake to this.

    115. Velofello says:

      I’ve posted before about what I call the colonial trick, meaning buy up in bulk cheaply from farmers, fishermen or whoever who do not have strong financial positions, cart their produce off, package it – no value added – and sell to the population. Just like how the supermarkets screw the dairy farmers over milk prices.

      If the Scottish government were able to provide cash flow surety to the fishing industry, fishermen and processors, then Youngs may just not have a sound business plan .

      Scotland the Brand.

    116. Gordon B says:

      Sassenach @8.05pm.

      If we shouldn’t be marching in Dumfries as it is a ‘union place’ then Mundell should be telling the OO to feck off as this is NOT N.I.

      Somehow doubt that will happen huh ?

    117. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m guessing that having been beaten by Peru, we’ll beat Mexico by 3-1.

    118. yesindyref2 says:

      That was to lull them into a false sense of security.

    119. yesindyref2 says:

      Well that was the first half, wearing down the Mexicans, they look tired and bruised and dispited and demoralised, and out of puff because of the high altitude, the second half is ours for the next 10 minutes or so.

    120. Graeme McAllan says:

      Any “Union Dividend” only ever benefits the country of England at Scotland’s expense – funny how that works out, maybe I’m missing something 🙁

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      Well I was kind of right. Mexico 1, Scotland 3 opportunities.

    122. Scottish Steve says:

      Perhaps the newspaper should rename itself the North Britisher. That would better reflect its outlook.

    123. Andy Anderson says:

      Down in Yorkshire at a friend’s wedding. Met lots of really nice people. Wearing a kilt meant a few asked about YES. They sadly have no clue what is going on anywhere.

    124. gus1940 says:

      I’ve said it before and I will say it again is it not time for somebody with access to the relevant data to produce a report detailing the asset stripping of Scotland that has taken place since say the end of WW2.

      Countless Scottish companies have been taken over by their English competitors, allowed to carry on for a few years and then shut down and production moved south of the border.

      Here in Edinburgh just think back 70 years to the number of breweries, the printing and publishing industries and biscuit making to name a few.

      Surely a document detailing this criminal asset stripping would be a great weapon in the battle to convert NOs to YES.

      Youngs is just the latest of many.

    125. gus1940 says:

      I, Like most people, was pleasantly surprised at the magnificent turnout in Dumfries.

      I had a premonition that it might turn out to be a bit of a damp squib after the Glasgow march but the numbers surely make it far more significant than Glasgow given the political make-up of D & G.

      In spite of the weather forecast even the gods of weather were on the side of the good guys.

      Fluffy Minor called it a Protest March – I don’t recall ever having seen so many happy smiling faces on any protest march.

      Onwards to Stirling and the other marches.

      After Glasgow and Dumfries I have this vision of a snowball on a slope gathering speed and size to eventually smash the British Nationalists into matchwood at the foot of the slope.

    126. Seumas says:

      Mundell selling out his own constituents and then getting the Scotsman to cover for him, by blaming the SNP govt. Unionists are dirty and devious, be wary of them.

    127. Nana says:

      The government’s Brexit stance is riddled with legal confusion
      http://archive.is/6cqjl

      Ireland gives Britain two weeks to produce Brexit border proposals
      http://archive.is/DBiEZ

      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/gaza-protest-latest-updates-180406092506561.html

      Catalonia: Madrid’s direct rule ends with new Catalan government
      http://archive.is/Ke5l3

    128. Robert Louis says:

      Grahema McAllan at 0247am,

      Many countries, like Scotland, have experienced what a ‘union’ with England really means.

      England’s union with India, asset stripped then divisively partitioned India, and during WW2, even asset stripped their food supply, leaving millions of men women and children to die from starvation.

      England’s ‘union’ asset stripped Africa, leaving a terrible legacy.

      The destroyed Ireland, forcing its partition.

      Indeed all through history this notion of a ‘union’ with England has been used to subvert, undermine and control countries all over the world. They ran slave gangs, exploited asian regions for their wealth, took goods, riches and wealth from Australia and possibly worst of all, SOLD HEROIN in vast quantities to CHINA, despite being wholly illegal. At one time ‘Britiain’ was the largest criminal drug dealer in the world.

      All though history, ‘britain’ (really England and all who were dragged along with it), did immeasurable damage all over the world. Defenders say things like, ‘oh yes, but they built railways in India’, but of course those railways were not built to help the people of India, they were built to move wealth good and diamonds etc out of India to the waiting ships of ‘the empire.

      Colonialism has always been about taking the riches of other countries as your own, it is a fundamental premise of it. They certainly didn’t do it out of altruism. It was wanton greed fuelled by brutal oppression and aggression.

      Scotland right now, and for the last 300+ years has been treated as a colony by England. In exchange, we are told we are lucky to be ‘British’, and are given a token say in events, but always with the restriction of not having real power over our country or its assets. Our culture and traditions are openly mocked, our speech and languages ridiculed, our history traduced on a regular basis, and our national wealth stolen by England on a daily basis. England has been literally stealing our oil wealth since the day it was first discovered.

      Possibly worst of all, the defenders of this tawdry arrangement, happily assert that Scotland is the only country in the world that is incapable of running its own affairs, without England telling it how to do so. It is unfathomably insulting.

      Time to put a stop to it.

    129. thomas says:

      I would agree with that.

      I watched that powerfull you tube clip of indian politician Dr. Shashi Tharoor on some talk show totally destroy some muppet on the subject of britains legacy in india.

      He commented that when the british first came to india , it was a highly literate and rich region responsible for 25% of global GDP through the textile trade , and after two hundred years of british rule they had reduced it to a poster boy for third world poverty with a highly illiterate population , starving and in abject poverty.

      Any form of contact or union with westminster means the kiss of death for the country involved , as westminster clings vampire like to the host nation and drains it dry.

    130. Peter Barlow says:

      I only heard about this yesterday.
      Thanks for the detail.

      Clearly not *quite* as simple as Fluffy bribing Young’s to take jobs away from his constituents.
      Not really. Not *quite*…

      Shame we couldn’t have reminded the BBC about this when they reported on yesterday’s March in Dumfries, so they could contextualise the event…

    131. Shagpile says:

      Not just the Tories, Labour & Lib Dems too. Does anyone remember the scandal of UK money paid to Viasystems to relocate sotb from Galashiels?

    132. Clapper57 says:

      Stella Creasey on Marr show today…talking about abortion re N. Ireland…Marr said something like SNP think it’s a devolved issue…she said has cross party support…then….she said thought RUTH DAVIDSON would look at it again….sorry does she think RD is FM ?…..wtf …..my my just shows you the ignorance of Labour HQ on devolved parliament in Scotland and how the current promotion of RD is paying off……or was it wishful thinking on Stella’s part…was she doing a Keiza promoting Tories in Scotland.

      It happened so quickly that I am still doubting having heard the context with which it was said but she definitely said RD’s name….did anyone else catch it ? Am I going feckin mad ?

      Surprise surprise Marr did NOT correct her or ask her what she meant re RD.

    133. Breeks says:


      Juan says:
      2 June, 2018 at 5:37 pm
      @Breeks 4:21
      Do you mean wee videos like this from Christine Graham:
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ychGT4dslrU

      Yes Juan. Precisely.

      But to be picky however, I’d like it more condensed, maybe a couple of minutes long and “punchy” so there is a fighting chance of getting it to trend, and hopefully go viral. I’m not implying folks have a short attention span, but these wee clips should be appetisers / door openers. We don’t have any Broadcasting media on continual standby for casual brainwashing, we have people checking in to phones and tablets and maybe sharing a link on a phone at tea break. It’s got to be quick. We need lightning in a bottle.

      If you think about it, the planet’s most Imperial Colonialist Entity, where the sun never set on its infamy, has a profound and major defect in its Constitutional DNA. Why isn’t that already a massive international bestselling thriller? The “Union” is a fraud. The “Great” island has a political fault line ready to fracture. It could make a fantastic Dan Browne type of thriller. The Vatican has it’s suppressed heresies, but so too does Westminster…

      We don’t need the world to get the world involved, well, maybe Europe, but surely we can manage to enlighten our own people with the truth about their own birthrights?

      While I mention Europe too, what would it be worth to add a few seconds footage with Michel Barnier’s comments on the subject of Scotland’s Sovereignty? “What comments?” you ask… Aye. Precisely.

      What about the UN formally commenting on it too? Why not have Barnier clarify what he would require to recognise Scotland as an interlocutor? It’s a reasonable question, and one he might even answer. The BBC and Better Together recognised the value of inviting figureheads from abroad to undermine the case for Independence back in 2014. The boot is on the other foot now.

      Unfortunately I don’t think ordinary people will have the gravitas to get a response, but for the life of me, I don’t understand why our own government doesn’t push for these type of interactions. It’s all preparation which will come to fruition later. Every living person who becomes aware of Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution is given powerful ammunition in any argument. It puts the objective definition of “right” on our side.

      Surely we have all the raw ingredients we need to put together a slick and streamline Constitutional Information video which pull the rug out from under the Union?

      Just imagine if our entire country, from the elderly to our toddlers, all understood sovereignty much better that we currently do. I firmly believe choosing formal Independence would be as mundane a choice as flicking a switch. Independence has unassailable sovereign legitimacy, whereas the case for Unionism becomes technically unwinnable.

      Yes, of course I’d choose progressive, persuasive arguments to build YES support, but I also want to sow the seeds of doubt in Unionist heads that the very concept of UK Sovereignty is a con, and always has been. It’s a revelation which will play on their minds, even through their denial, and ultimately, it will help their acceptance. They might never like Independence, but we can make it very difficult for them to dispute or contest its legitimacy.

    134. Terry says:

      @Clapper57

      We need that clip of Stella Creasy. Anyone on wings provide a link?

      Aye. They’re fair promoting the Mooth as saviour of the union. Won’t work.

    135. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lollysmum says: 2 June, 2018 at 10:54 pm:

      ” … Many spectators were holding flags,balloons, signs etc but not marching-was this the local people of Dumfries & surrounding areas lending their support to the march whilst not physically taking part? “

      I had a rather bad day, health-wise, having just been started on a new course of medications and told it might take a few days to get accustomed to. They were not kidding.

      I watched on livestream and had the same thoughts as yourself, Lollysmum. I asked myself the question, “why are these, obviously in favour of indy people, not marching along with the marchers”?

      It occurred to me that perhaps they felt they had not been invited. It might be a good idea in future marches to have a few banners carried by marchers spaced along the ranks inviting bystanders to, “Come & Join Us”.

      Perhaps the local area, I believe their TV/radio and perhaps also local papers are covered more by over the border media than from Central Scotland and they had not realised the march was open to all who support the cause of independence.

      It really was strikingly obvious there was great support from the locals but little active marching.

      Remember also that the surrounding area is vast and mainly often isolated farm folks who would be busy all week but go to town on Saturday to shop or even just for a day out. They may have not have realised everyone was welcome to march.

      But you are correct there was far more obvious spectator support for indy than usual but there was also far more Saltires and banners among the roadside spectators than has been usual. The point is that they had come and equipped themselves with the supporting paraphernalia, so it wasn’t a casual support.

    136. Robert Peffers says:

      @Croompenstein says: 2 June, 2018 at 11:14 pm:

      “They are circling the wagons around Fluffy he must be brought to account for this betrayal.”

      The very fact they are isolating Fluffy is perhaps the best thing they could do for independence. If the rest of Scotland just agrees to leave him, ignored behind the waggons, that might be the way to keep him isolated from the people of Scotland.

    137. Dr Jim says:

      Before ten thousand of us marched through the tiny streets of Dumfries looking around at the empty properties that the Tory council of that town are grinding down businesses into the ground emptying buildings of any chance for new growth or even rental possibilities in order to convert Dumfries into a haven like English village for our cousins down south to come and spend their retirement away from the hustle and bustle and funny foreign accents and different coloured people they have to endure in England the television channels and right wing newspapers blame the SNP for what the Tory local council in Dumfries aren’t doing my brother and I decided we’d take our filthy Saltire Independence supporting flags and venture into Marks and Spencers for a pre march coffee (just to offend them by our *steenkin presence of course) we find Marks and Spencers have had a wee face lift while all around them is failing, so how can this be we thought as we made our way with our overpriced coffees and sticky buns to our table

      As we settled our filthy nationalist frames into our chairs making sure or fishing rods with their Saltires wrapped around them trying not to be obviously obvious (wink) more of our evil ilk began arriving, no doubt with the same idea until the cafeteria was full of the stench of ugly nationalism the face of which indeed is ugly and the air was almost palatable with well pensioners just the same as me and my brother

      As we talked over our morning refreshment others arrived not equipped with walking clothes and *steenkin badges* like us but pink shirts white Chino trousers and fashionable brogue shoes then seeing us the great unwashed of Scotlands separatists seated in their most favoured of morning haunts their faces visibly dropped the normal zombie like look of those who make this their daily or weekly excursion to faces of disillusioned befuddlement, what to do where to go, the image was a picture, actual Scottish people had arrived in their *village* and were sitting in *their seats

      But here’s the thing we weren’t all Scottish or even young reprobates creating a nuisance of ourselves, we were English Polish German Irish Welsh and forgive me if I missed anyone out, but what we were and are is …….

      Scotlands people standing up for our country or the country we have made our home and we’d like to see it thrive like every other *normal* country does with businesses open people having jobs and children looking forward to a future
      and not a retirement community for English people to spend lazy hours for the rest of their life receiving greatfully the benefits of the political choces we in Scotland make only to have the political party who supplies these benefits and services voted against by the recipients to keep Scotland a part of the Union and country of England that they just left in order to avoid paying for the same in that country

      Not angry at all Scottish person (Do you think they’d read this out on BBC points of view)

    138. Returnofthemac says:

      @clapper 57.re Marr. Stella did mention the mooth she also mentioned Hannah Bardell difference is Hannah is an Mp and the mooth is… Well nothing really.

    139. Archbishop of Dork says:

      If May calls a snap GE then in DCT it’s ‘Get the Sellout Mundell Out!’

    140. jfngw says:

      Will the voters in the area remember the Mundell’s are in a party that paid a company to move its factory from Scotland to England. Or do the die in the wool Tory voters in the area basically not care, they personally are not directly affected.

      The Scottish Tories once again standing up for England.

    141. Jock McDonnell says:

      Thanks Nana:
      Prof John Kay – ‘This time, the currency question is sensibly dealt with by noting that there is no need for an independent Scotland to do anything at all. The world has moved on from the days when money was distinguished by the head of the sovereign — or perhaps has gone back to the days when gold was a medium of exchange that knew no boundaries.’

      What a great idea having AUOB marches outside the big cities. Dumfries is a great starting example. Takes the campaign to the heart of the communities & builds engagement & momentum. Magic.

    142. fillofficer says:

      fluffy is starting to look like ceausescu in his final days, dontcha think, heh

    143. Marker Post says:

      If May calls a snap GE, then let’s just declare it to be about independence and get this over with quickly. No referendum needed.

      Seeing pictures of Dumfries does make me believe the tide is turning. Next ones in Bannockburn and Inverness. These things build momentum of their own. Now if a snap GE was called, could you imagine the turnout in either of those places?

    144. Clapper57 says:

      @ Returnofthemac says:
      3 June, 2018 at 10:23 am

      Cheers. Not as MAD as I thought I was.

      So Labour MP aka Red Tory looks to a Tory to help champion cause….hey peeps Stella here admiring liberal Ruth who is so socially aware that she will , as a Tory and former colleague in BT campaign, support me in seeking justice for women in NI.

      Never mind that she supports Rape Clause and austerity ,that is a , I suppose, a kinda injustice to women here in UKOK.

      Just remember peeps she supports the Union…plus like me she ain’t on side of Corbyn like that whatshisname guy in charge of Labour at Holyrood.

      Also Nicola Sturgeon is just so wrapped up in all of that devolved shit that we need a new fresh more UKOK pair of eyes to jump on the bandwagon…unionists must stick together and only unionists should solve issues re devolved REGIONS.

      yours

      Stella HQ MP Unionist party member of Red Tories.

    145. auld highlander says:

      If you want to see tory success in Dumfries just count the number of charity shops.

    146. Returnofthemac says:

      Was delighted to be at the saunter doom the street in Dumfries yesterday. Crowd excellent usual brit nats (not from Dumfries) let’s make Stirling (where else) 100,000 please.

    147. Returnofthemac says:

      Should have been “doon” the street predictive text.

    148. Returnofthemac says:

      Should have been “doon” the street. Bloody predictive text.

    149. Gfaetheblock says:

      Clapper57

      It is on the iPlayer, 30 minutes in, she says Davidson and Bardell as reps of other parties that she has been speaking to. It is a clunky sentence, but much more likely that she has been speaking to those named on this issue that NS.

    150. Archbishop of Dork says:

      Ruth Davidson speaking yesterday to a Scots Tory convention – really a well dressed pensioners get together – in Perth:

      “We’ll always remember why we’re here. It’s to serve. It’s to put issues first, and ourselves a long way behind.”

      We know who the Scots Tories serve. Mundell’s just demonstrated that once again. But they needn’t worry. The Tories in Scotland will soon be a very long way behind.

    151. Robert Louis says:

      It does seem like the British Nationalists and their Tory chums are getting rather horrified at the growth in support for indy seen at the last two marches.

      Now, let’s make Bannockburn the biggest yet (and make King Robert on his horse proud). That’ll really rattle them.

      Onwards and upwards. Our time is near. Scotland’s freedom awaits.

    152. Meg merrilees says:

      Returnofthemac

      Dumfries looked brilliant and a massive well done to all those who attended.

      I’m looking forward to the Bannockburn March but I have to inform you all that the route is almost entirely on backstreets and through housing areas, so for many people, it will not be particularly visible. In past years they have followed the main roads and even started on Stirling Bridge but not this year.

      NB: For wheelchair users, there are a couple of pretty steep hills included but it will be easy to bypass the worst. At St. Ninians Primary school, instead of turning right, up Coxethill Rd, you head straight down past Lidl, turn right and go along to the Thistle park- very near to Stephen Kerr’s office (situated just on the roundabout) funnily enough so the police might not let you do this??? – then it is a gentle uphill slope to rejoin the main march)

      To be fair, the route could be as a result of the massive traffic disruption in this area just now as they replace the railway bridge in the centre of Stirling. This has effectively cut the town in half and means substantial diversions for almost everyone, but I can’t help wondering since this is the town that agreed to Armed Forces Day clashing with the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn.

      It’s going to be a grand day.

    153. Tinto Chiel says:

      Robert Louis @8.37 and thomas @9.12: excellent comments on the appalling land grab and grand larceny that was the British Empire.

      While at school I thought the Opium Wars were when the righteous British tried to stop the Chinese from indulging in that ghastly trade and enslaving their own people. That’s the kind of bilge a Niall Ferguson would write.

      The phrase “Evil Empire” doesn’t really cover it.

    154. Puzzled Puss says:

      I’ve just finished reading ‘Scottish Journey’ by Edwin Muir (first published 1935). In it he describes the axing of Scottish railway jobs, and the replacing of Scottish locomotive building works with new facilities in England. We’re again seeing a depressingly similar scenario. Time to end this repetitious cycle!

    155. Jack Murphy says:

      Colin Alexander mentioned in his post yesterday at 4:56pm:

      “……It was an inspiring sight to see all those people and all those flags: Saltires, Lion Rampants, Crosses of St George etc – and the bikers for independence at Whitesands…….”

      Thanks for that,I was looking all over the Net yesterday for them—–here they are——Starting at Abington Services all the way to Whitesands, Dumfries.

      Here is the link to The Bikers for Independence Page [Yes Bikers ] with 16 minute VIDEO of yesterday’s trip.

      Accompanied by some great music. 🙂

      https://www.yesbikers.scot/

    156. Capella says:

      Punchy? Like this Phantom Power Film on Independence marches? with dates at the end for Bannockburn and Inveness. 2 mins.

      Now is the Time.

      https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1003025694333571073

    157. admiral says:

      I don’t know why anyone is shocked. Fluffy is on record as saying the nation of Scotland does not exist, so to his way of thinking jobs have been moved from England to England – i.e. nothing has changed.

      Even if he is a hypocritical, thieving wee sh1t in taking a Cabinet=level salary, pension, allowances and expenses from the taxpayer to not represent the non-nation of Scotland as its Secretary of State.

    158. Orri says:

      Strictly speaking,

      Mary Stuart was no longer Queen of Scots when in the keeping of Elizabeth First of England.

      Her only claim to that title would be on the basis of her forced abdication.

      But if the Declaration of Arbroath was the legal justification for her deposal the the line about no longer being our King might kick in.

      Depends on whether you expand the clause about English Kings to include other foreign interests or not.

      Certainly she was acting above her station by putting her own interests ahead of her peoples.

    159. Ann Forbes says:

      Re Marr show – see the Twitter account for 2 hours ago ( one of two on Creasy ) .

    160. winifred mccartney says:

      I think the Britnats realise we have reached the tipping point and are running very very scared – we need to tell anyone who will listen about the Pinney fish processing plant and let everyone know that Scotland is being asset stripped before our very eyes, just like the britnats did in India and everywhere else they colonised. Then ask them if the know of any independent colony that wants to come back under colonial rule eg America, Canada, Australia, India, etc etc there are hundreds of examples.

      Remember also the Vow, and the lies, the jobs lost at HMRC, the ships promised to be built, the most powerful devolved parliament remember what powers labour denied us.

      Time for fluffy to go – he does not even try to represent Scotland.

    161. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I rather wish I could see this resolution at the SNP Conference next weekend

      “At all subsequent UK Parliamentary elections the SNP will contest on the single issue of assuming independent status for Scotland in the event of such a proposal achieving a majority in Scotland.”

      That would every bit as legitimate as any referendum (and was conceded as such by Margaret Thatcher).
      Our MPS at the moment are working all the hours at Westminster to what effect I cannot say.

      In the meantime lets back Woof and Dick up against the wall and force them to oppose Scotland having a democratic vote on Scotland’s future.

    162. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Longish post but quite important. The UN Charter is unambiguous in terms of the inalienable right of self determination

      Clarification to the original mentions in 1946 of the “right to self-determination” at the era of rapid decolonisation in the early 1960s below.

      “The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms. It states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[3]
      Article 1 in both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)[20] and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights(ICESCR)[21] reads: “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. ”
      Further clarification below when some tried to suggest that that clarification only applied to decolonisation. It of course does not and is an unambiguous general statement

      “… While the principle of territorial integrity is important, as understood in many United Nations Resolutions, including GA Resolutions 2625 and 3314, it is intended to be applied externally, to prohibit foreign threats or incursions into the territorial integrity of sovereign States. This principle cannot be invoked to quench the right of all people, guaranteed under Article 1 of the International Covenants on Human Rights, to express their desire to control their futures.
      The right of self-determination is a right of peoples and not a prerogative of States to grant or deny. In case of a conflict between the principle of territorial integrity and the human right to self-determination, it is the latter that prevails.
      Of course, there are many peoples worldwide who aspire to self-determination, whether internal in the form of autonomy or external in the form of independence. And while the realization of self-determination is not automatic or self-executing, it is a fundamental human right that the international community should help implement.”
      The UN statement goes on:
      “The international law of self-determination has also progressed far beyond mere decolonization. Applying the 15 criteria contained in my 2014 report (paras 63-77), it is evident that no state can use the principle of territorial integrity to deny the right of self-determination and that arguments about the legality of actions taken by Catalonia’s elected parliament are immaterial. Such arguments do not nullify the ius cogens* character of self-determination.”
      (* an international norm from which no derogation is permitted.)

    163. HandandShrimp says:

      The stridency of the SiU green inkers in telling us that everything, from a very dry May to Nicola Tweeting her support for the Growth Commission, means that there will be no second Indyref tells me that they there is going to be a second Indyref.

      There is something in the air and smells of the sweet scent of Indy blossom. 🙂

    164. JGedd says:

      Dr Jim @ 10.22 am.

      I was on the march in Dumfries yesterday, too, and it was a happy and significant occasion. I have lived in this area for 40 years and it was easily the most uplifting public occasion in which I have taken part.

      I was surprised and delighted that we had the support of all those marvellous people like you, Dr.Jim, who had travelled from a’ the airts to march for independence and created such a joyous presence for the independence campaign. I, personally, would like to thank all that colourful company from the community of Scotland who gladdened the heart by marching for independence in Dumfries.

      Your observations, Dr. Jim, concerning the empty properties and the general down-at-heel appearance of Dumfries while contrasted with the very well-heeled English (and Scots) coffee drinkers content with the situation, are very true. It presents very well what I think of as the typical Tory outcome of ‘private wealth and public squalor’. ( Did you see anything of the grand villas and the recent numerous newbuilds when you travelled into and out of Dumfries?) No new industries go along with the influx of newcomers, mainly from England.

      (One quibble though, the present council is run by a coalition of Labour and SNP. The largest party was actually the Conservatives. Control of the council has generally swung about among coalitions of various colourations. But the increase in empty properties has been dramatically accelerated since Brexit, so, on the whole, the fortunes of Dumfries are at the mercy of Westminster policies.)

      Once more, I would like to thank all of you who managed to come to the march. All of you who couldn’t manage, you would have been proud of those who could – they were wonderful representatives. I had a happy smile on my face the whole time and that’s not me!

    165. galamcennalath says:

      GNats! That’s what they should be called – all who oppose Scottish independence.

      Further to my wittering @ 9:52 pm, Greater English Nationalists.

      That is what they all want, a Greater England. Not a Union. Not a partnership.

      BritNat covers Scots (and NIrish) who want to retain the UK. What is this ‘Britain’ they speak of? IMO they mean a unified state in the image of England, ruled from London.

      But what about Rees Mogg and such? I think he is English and nothing else. He is über English Nationalist. However, I have absolutely no doubt he wishes London to retain control over Scotland.

      I also have no doubt his view of these Isles is as a Greater England.

      So, conclusion, Greater English Nationalist … GNat … covers the lot of them.

    166. Breeks says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      3 June, 2018 at 11:19am

      I’m looking forward to the Bannockburn March but I have to inform you all that the route is almost entirely on backstreets and through housing areas, so for many people, it will not be particularly visible. In past years they have followed the main roads and even started on Stirling Bridge but not this year…

      Aye, mibee true. But on the other hand, it is Bannockburn, and it’s also in the shameless Council Ward which attempted to overshadow the 700th Anniversary of Bannockburn with the UK Armed Forces Day. Imagine that. What despicable creatures. As I recall they also wanted to remove a Saltire from their HQ to fly a Union flag in its place. Is that what you elect Stirling??? What is wrong with you?

      Plan ahead folks. Find a way of getting there. Let us make the Bannockburn March an awesome spectacle of which the Catalans would even be proud. If they cannae see us, we’ll just need to let them hear us.

    167. Robert Peffers says:

      @Returnofthemac says: 3 June, 2018 at 11:03 am:

      “Should have been “doon” the street. Bloody predictive text.”

      Aye! Returnofthemac, the reason being that Microsoft doesn’t recognise Scots as a distinctive language, even although both the EU and United Kingdom have officially recognised both Scottish languages as distinctive languages.

      That’ll be another couple of advantages of taking back our Scottish sovereignty. Microsoft will not only recognise both Scottish languages and there will be set of web addresses that are distinctly Scots. So o more, ” *******.co.uk”.

    168. Dr Jim says:

      @JGedd

      The brother I spoke of lives along the Galloway tourist route
      I myself live in Bishopbriggs on the edge of Glasgow so it’s a fairly regular visit for me to come down the borders way because it is a beautiful area like most of Scotland really

      I remeber well when the flooding happened in the Dumfries area and when I refer to the Tory council there I suppose I always lump the Tories together with Labour because I see no difference in their behaviour because the results are always the same, but I digress a little

      John Swinney in the chamber at that time and for the first time I’d ever seen lost his temper with a Labour MSP who’s name escapes me at the moment for not immediately paying out the money to the victims of the flooding as required because the situation is any emergency money for this purpose is always reclaimed without question from the SG

      The purpose of this nonsense from Labour was to blame the SG for not providing the assistance in a timely fashion in order to garner supported hatred from the voters against the SNP when nothing could have been further from the truth because every other area was paying out financial support as required by the emergency deal, so the voters of Dumfries in that instance were used and conned to collect votes but lied to by their own council for politics no matter the suffering they’d endured

      That was at the time when Mundell was the Panda and now because of it there is now son of Panda and a whole team of little Pandas beavering away to make a lovely little town into something that’s of no use to actual working industry and job creation which in fact would help to make the town even lovelier and working at the same time by growing the economy

      One last thing I saw an old derelect weed overgrown beautiful red brick building on the opposite side of the riverbank that looked as though in it’s time was a real cracker and I thought surely this must be protected as some sort of heritage building before it falls down and is something the local council would want preserved but on asking around a little bit no one could tell me anything about it and hadn’t seemed to notice which seemed a terrible tragedy
      I hope that building whatever it was is either saved or restored to put to use I thought it was far too good looking to lose and indeed even add to tourist interest

    169. Orri says:

      Think it’s far more impressive having streets packed with local support for the march. Shows it isn’t just a traveling show bussed in and an actual genuine expression of a desire for independence in the area.

      Might also be partly an immediate reaction to the Dumfries factory closure.

    170. John Young says:

      Dr Jim 10.22 you said “Tory local council in Dumfries” in your post above.

      You are wrong. Since 5th May 2017, Dumfries and Galloway Council has been run by an SNP/Lab Administration and the SNP Councillors are doing a fantastic job.

      Every single one of our D&G SNP Councillors were part of that fantastic AUOB March yesterday behind a large Yellow Banner which read “D&G SNP Council Group”

    171. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T:

      I read yesterday, on BBC Radio Scotland’s Ceefax service, that new Home Secretary, Sajid Javid, had said on the Andrew Marr show, “The security Services are to get 2,000 extra officers one year on from the attack on London Bridge.”

      Javid vowed, “to make sure the United Kingdom, (a.k.a. England), had all the resources needed, “to fight the terror threat”.

      Now I jalousie that, as the Westminster Establishment regard both the SNP and the larger YES movement as terrorist threats, we, on Wings, can expect an even bigger influx of commenters who claim to support indy but who always have a, not too subtle, SNP/SG BAAAAAD! agenda attached to their every comment.

      I think we mostly can all distinguish who they are within their first three comments. Mind you it will not stop them disrupting the free flow of every topic and thread.

    172. galamcennalath says:

      ” Arlene Foster has warned British Prime Minister Theresa May that she will withdraw her support in the House of Commons if Northern Ireland is given special EU and UK status after Brexit. “

      https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0603/967911-brexit-dup/

      A train crash in slow motion, and you can’t take your eyes off it!

      May is going to to disappoint, sell out even, someone sooner than later.

      – The UK must leave customs union and single market
      – There must be no intrusive border in Ireland
      – NI must remain a ful part of the UK

      … impossible, somthing has to be dumped!

    173. John Young says:

      Dr Jim I agree with your comment on an old derelict weed overgrown beautiful red brick building.

      From 9th March 2017 “Council pledges support for Rosefield Mills project.

      Dumfries and Galloway Council today agreed to offer a grant of £37,000 to Dumfries Historic Buildings Trust to enable them to purchase the riverfront building at Rosefield Mills, Troqueer. The Trust has run a very successful community fundraiser which currently stands at £43,000 plus gift aid.”

    174. Colin Alexander says:

      Dr Jim

      As JGedd points out: Dumfries and Galloway Cooncil, is a Labour / SNP coalition but the largest single grouping is the Tories.

      The leader of the Council is Elaine Murray, former Labour MSP for the area prior to Oliver Mundell taking the constituency seat.

      Her deputy is an SNP councillor. The Council is 16 Conservative, 11 Labour, 11 SNP, 5 others.

      I’m avoiding negativity and concentrating on a pro-indy attitude, so won’t tell you what I think of the Chief Executive of D&G Council and some of the other senior local government officials who are head of this council. Jeremy Hunt’s

      – a Remainer who has turned Brexiteer.

    175. indigo says:

      re Dr Jim

      The building you speak of is Rosefield Mills which has been purchased by the local community with with grant support from the Labour / SNP partnership of equals administration that currently run D&G Council.

      The empty town centre properties are largely caused by these buildings being purchased by pension funds who impose very high rents (upon which the value of the fund is based) which price local businesses out of the town centre. There is a community and arts led movement in Dumfries to ‘buy back’ the town centre, which again has the active backing of D&G Council. It’s been in the media a lot recently, it’s called the Midsteeple Quarter project.

      The flooding you mention when Mr Swinney lost his temper the council was a Labour minority administration. It is different now and to imply otherwise is to do a great disservice to the influx of new SNP councillors and yes activists who were elected last year.

      It was wonderful to see so many people from all over Scotland visiting our patch, but it should be noted that local estimates are that half those marching were people from across D&G. Many of those are regular attendees at Glasgow marches which is why many faces would have looked familiar. Yes there were lots of spectators too, and this was wonderful – what good a march without people watching and enjoying the spectacle.

      This part of Scotland has historically been one of the most neglected parts. We have the lowest wages in Scotland but the highest transport costs. The south of Scotland is not well served by Scottish media, despite the efforts of local BBC journalists here they struggle to get local stories on national Scottish news. This means that the rest of Scotland rarely hears our voice. So it was lovely to welcome the rest of Scotland to Dumfries yesterday so that people could experience first hand this historically important part of Scotland, and meet the very active pro independence networks that we have down here.

    176. Dr Jim says:

      @John Young

      I’m afraid I became overwhelmed by my dislike of the Mundell effect in my wee rant and am suitably corrected as to the increase in support now from more of our good guys

      I knew we had Joan McAlpine MSP there but I didn’t know of others which is my fault for not keeping up quickly enough, at times it feels like we’re all attempting to stamp out fires all around at the same time

    177. Orri says:

      https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2018/03/13/news/court-victory-over-united-ireland-border-poll-1277425/

      Should be in the minds of Foster and May.

      On a very dubious plus side it means that Stormont not sitting doesn’t stop a border poll.

      On the negative there might be a transfer of that decision to Stormont which means it’s off the agenda at least until the next elections.

      The question then is how changes in the abortion laws will affect support for the DUP. Voters don’t have to transfer to any other party for nationalists to win. Simple abstention might be enough.

      OTOH it’s possible that the non political solution will be one of regular border polls completely removed from the control of any parliamentary body.

    178. Chick McGregor says:

      DMH always worth doing another reminder of the inexorable international road of travel of self determination in a World still possessing some imperialist dinosaur states.

      On Young’s exit, struggling to find an ob. funny but perhaps a Young clan comment ‘Highway To Heull’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l482T0yNkeo

    179. schrodingers cat says:

      RP
      It occurred to me that perhaps they felt they had not been invited. It might be a good idea in future marches to have a few banners carried by marchers spaced along the ranks inviting bystanders to, “Come & Join Us”.

      —————–
      thats a good idea, mind if i mention it to yes stirling and inverness?

      some biz cards with contact details to hand out to local pedestrians and marchers alike

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      Not posting in the Herald for 3 weeks now after the SH misreporting of he Glasgow march, and Leask throwing tantrums, even below the line. But I read some of the comments to see what’s going on. Here’s a misquote from someone who used to be a reasonable Unionist (about GC report):

      Colin Fox leader of Scottish Socialists – total contempt for findings and says he and his party will no longer be supporting Independence.

      No, Colin Fox said he wouldn’t support a YES Scotland if it was based on the Growth Commission report, but that he would campaign separately for Independence.

      See how the lies come out from the unionists.

    181. Arbroath1320 says:

      For anyone who somehow managed to find themselves mysteriously transported to Dumfries yesterday and following a rather large crowd for no apparent reason perhaps you could play the wee game of “can I spot myself.”

      I did … and yes I DID spot myself … just ever so briefly. 😀

      https://www.facebook.com/Scotyesfreedom/videos/2075786909361217/

    182. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim / @John Young
      If there’s a problem with Dumfries town centre, it’s one I find all over Scotland, though I’m very rarely in city centres so can’t talk about them. The problem with charity shops is that they pay no rates, and also sell new goods in competition with other privately owned small shops – and even chains. But these often pay full rates.

      The thing is people will actually go into shops to look at the goods, take outdoor shops as an example, and then go away and order online. I’ve even been told of one person who ordered in the shop, while checking the labels to make sure he ordered the wrong one. People selling online don’t pay rates in general, selling from their own home or a unit for which they might get 100% rates relief (as I do).

      Some high street shops will also get 100% relief, or a portion, depends on the reateable value. So long-term the answer is to also give them 100% rates relief – or move to a turnover or profit based system. That’s a central government type of thing, but as we know funds are severely limited. It’s the sort of thing some enterprising pro-Indy group could maybe address with a plan, Andy Wightman / Greens type of reform. But that can’t be done quickly.

      Add to that difficulty parking, parking charges, BID, and the costs mount up while the turnover and profit drops, while out of town has many advantages for retailers – mostly of the chain (large or small) variety.

      The High Street is dying, and it needs vision to save it.

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      One wee factor by the way is the Post Office. Many closed or closing. And a problem with that is taht Central Government- as in the UK one – has encouraged and even forced people to get all sorts of benefits paid into a bank account, rather than be accessible via the PO.

      But people come into the PO, get their pension for instance in cash, and spend in the locality. That’s going rapidly.

      The question is – would a future iScotland Government have the courage to reverse that, to make sure that as well as private Post Office counters, there are publicly owned ones around, all over Scotland, and at the same time reinstate benefits being paid via the Post Office? Perhaps even encouraging POs to have ATMs for thoe banks that while profits rise, close branches all over the place? And of course counter services for bank customers, some of which does exist aleady.

      Perhaps it’s a case of save the PO, save the town centre.

    184. John Young says:

      Hi Indyref2, it’s a pity this thread is quiet and agree with so much. However as Indigo says above

      “The empty town centre properties are largely caused by these buildings being purchased by pension funds who impose very high rents (upon which the value of the fund is based) which price local businesses out of the town centre.”

      A lott of streets near Dumfries town centre have lots of interesting specialist shops. If they moved into the town centre problem solved.

      However Rental asked for an empty High St shop will be in excess of £20k/yr (see above for reason) Rental for a locally owned shop adjacent to Town Centre usually £4k to £6K /yr.

      UK Gov could slap a 10% packaging/internet tax on all goods purchased over the internet and use this to modernise town centres.

    185. Colin Alexander says:

      @John Young

      Well done the D&G Council SNP group and Joan McAlpine MSP for attending the march / rally.

      The council would do well to sack Chief Executive Gavin Stevenson before he brings bad publicity to the new administration.

      Also, the Blue Badge scheme for parking is off-putting. If you want to park and then walk round Dumfries town centre, browsing the shops and get something to eat, two hours is too short a time.

      Is it any surprise people go to Dumfries’ Tesco, Aldi’s or Morrisons or just shop online?

    186. Capella says:

      @ Arbroath 1320 – thx for posting the video of the march. Does look like a big crowd – but which one were you?

      Noticed a large red brick building n the bckground left of picture and wonder if that is the building Dr Jim was admiring.

    187. I marched in Dumfries yesterday. I would like to point out that with the amount of flags of St George flying and the English4Independence banners marching with us the british nationalist anti-English rhetoric was blown out of the water.

    188. Socrates MacSporran says:

      yesindyref2

      A wee aside on your line about people going into High Street shops to check-out goods, before ordering them online, not strictly the same, but, it shows what can be done.

      In Ayr, if you had the right family connections, it was possible to buy a carpet from the local manufacturers, Gray’s Carpets at a considerable staff discount.

      One of my friends had a carpet shop in Ayr, and, sick of people coming in, liking a Gray’s carpet from the display swatches he had, then not buying from him, but getting the carpet through a Gray’s employee, he acted.

      Over one weekend, he changed all the labels on his display carpet swatches, keeping a book with the right description for each carpet for genuine customers.

      Then, the chancers who would sometimes even get him to measure-up for how much carpeting they needed placed their order with their insider contact at Gray’s, inevitably, they got the “wrong” carpet.

    189. Arbroath1320 says:

      Capella says:
      3 June, 2018 at 3:52 pm
      @ Arbroath 1320 – thx for posting the video of the march. Does look like a big crowd – but which one were you?

      Noticed a large red brick building n the bckground left of picture and wonder if that is the building Dr Jim was admiring.

      I’m the idiot in the Wheelchair Capella wearing the Saltire bandana and waving the YES Saltire at around 19:44. 😉

    190. yesindyref2 says:

      @John Young
      Yes, I totally forgot to mention the high rents and ownership either by funds, or merciless landlords. The cause for many a shop closing. Well, there’s a solution for that in terms of “fair rent” and “unoccupied buildings” and I seem to remember there are steps afoot to do something about that. 200% rates after 3 months of unoccuapncey and no intention to sell at a fair market price would handle that.

      @Socrates MacSporran
      Mmm, crafty. I might mention that to some people 🙂

    191. Colin Alexander says:

      James Caithness

      Totally agree; it was great to see the English Scots for Independence at the march and such nice people too.

      This is about people in Scotland taking back control so that a Scottish Parliament and Scottish Govt is empowered to represent the sovereign people of Scotland, to work for the people of Scotland’s best interests.

      Whether you originally came from Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland or overseas is irrelevant: if Scotland is now your home, that’s what matters.

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      @ohn Young: “UK Gov could slap a 10% packaging/internet tax on all goods purchased over the internet and use this to modernise town centres.

      Two problems with that, I sell direct over the internet (as well as sales to trade) to eke out a meager living, but apart from that there’s a lot of high street shops that survive by also selling over the internet. You could tackle it by price control, but that’s a very difficult path to go down – it has been tried before, way back.

      Really it needs a positive solution for shops and the high street. But making sure units aren’t deliberately left shuttered up is one thing that can be tackled fairly, and only hits the mass property owners who charge “unfair” rents, or perhaps don’t even bother.

    193. frogesque says:

      Footnote to AUOB Dumfries.

      Unionist have every right to voice their side and fly their flag. Very disappointed that they chose to do this at the Burns Monument which meant that anyone else, Unionist,Yes or just plain tourist couldn’t get anywhere near it.

      To me it was deliberate provocation (it failed) and showed them for the handful of small minded losers they really are.

      The day was fantastic, somewhere in the middle of the march and it was both stirring and humbling to witness a sea of flags and banners stretched out in front and then turn round to see as many if not more following. The dog also enjoyed himself with much clapping, petting and random folk giving doggy treats!

      Roll on Banockburn, can we make it 100k marchers??

      Aye, all things are possible!

    194. John Young says:

      @Colin Alexander Off Topic

    195. Colin Alexander says:

      In 2014 we were asked: “Should Scotland be an independent country?”.

      The Scot Govt’s Growth Commission Report (GCR) suggested it AGAIN: sharing the Pound and shared resources.

      What was offered in 2014 and again suggested in GCR is NOT independence, so it would be wrong to call it independence.

      That begs the questions: what is independence?

      Put simply, you are NOT independent, if you are in any sort of partnership or union.

      I believe that what I mean by independence and what most people also mean by independence is political sovereignty.

      It’s often mentioned on here that the people of Scotland are sovereign ( name checks to Robert Peffers and Breeks especially).

      But that sovereignty has been placed with UK Parliament as part of the Union.

      UK Parliament means: Crown ( UK Govt), House of Commons and Lords. The UK unwritten constitution tells us UK Parliament is sovereign.

      Sovereign means head or the master or mistress. You can’t have two heads or that would be sovereigns, plural.

      As Robert points out, that means the UK Union is in direct contradiction of the legal and historical basis of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

      We want that sovereignty of the people of to be remain the people of Scotland’s,but giving the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Govt the mandate to exercise that sovereignty.

      So, with that, we should call it political sovereignty.

      If Scotland’s people can exercise OUR political sovereignty at Parliament and Govt level, we can be as independent as we like or work with others but, nobody will be our masters.

      And if you don’t like how the Scottish Govt uses our sovereignty, the people of Scotland can take it off them by voting them out democratically.

      We can’t do that in the UK.

    196. Ghillie says:

      Robert Peffers 2nd June @ 9.23 pm

      So the English monarch’s spite and venom towards Scotland at that time turned to bite it on the bum.

      And Scotland now has the Declaration of Arbroath 🙂

      Worth a read folks.

      Little by little we will learn our history.

      Thank you Robert =)

    197. Orri says:

      Loosely back on topic.

      Arlene Fraser has said/threatened/promised to move to Scotland if there’s ever a United Ireland. If that happened before indyref2 what’s the chances of Westminster offering relocation grants on the basis that we want immigrants? Nothing to do with increasing the No (surrender) vote obviously.

    198. Colin Alexander says:

      John Young says:
      3 June, 2018 at 5:14 pm

      “@Colin Alexander Off Topic”

      With respect John, the main topic is the UK Govt’s and Youngs betrayal of the workers at the Penneys fish processing factory at Annan but, the Scottish Govt get the blame in the MSM.

    199. John Young says:

      @yesindyref2 you are correct as from 2020 Local Authorities will be given the power to adjust non-domestic rates in a similar manner to the way they can now adjust domestic rates for holiday homes etc.

      Colin Alexander agree with your phrase ‘what most people also mean by independence is political sovereignty’ and message for you on Off-Topic

    200. remo says:

      @Ian Foulds
      At least Paisley buddies now have the redoubtable Mairi Black (have I spelled that right?) representing them. Even a pal who was a no-voter in 2014 says she is a “belter of an MP”. There is hope yet for the future. I am working on opening a few eyes to things – softly, softly catchee monkey.
      I also wanted to tell all the folk who post on Wings just how much I appreciate what I have learned from them.

    201. Weechid says:

      Arbroath1320 says:

      3 June, 2018 at 2:01 pm

      For anyone who somehow managed to find themselves mysteriously transported to Dumfries yesterday and following a rather large crowd for no apparent reason perhaps you could play the wee game of “can I spot myself.”

      I did … and yes I DID spot myself … just ever so briefly

      I’m hidden but I’m carrying the My Scotland banner with the “Brave” thistle on it, I thought we were near the front but we are 4 mins into this video and there seems to be loads in front of us. The crowd behind us was enormous. Thanks everyone for a great day. I also appear in the Indylive video – almost at the end of the day singing s wee anti media song:-)

    202. yesindyref2 says:

      What a load of old.

      Put simply, you are NOT independent, if you are in any sort of partnership or union.

      Tell that to the 28 members of the EU, the 19 members of the eurozone.

      Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Vatican City use the euro as their national currency, in agreement with the EU. A number of countries and territories use the euro as their de facto currency such as Kosovo and Montenegro.

      Similar for the dollar:

      The official currency of the following countries is the US dollar.

      Commonwealth of Puerto Rico
      Ecuador
      Republic of El Salvador
      Republic of Zimbabwe
      Guam
      US and British Virgin Islands
      Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste
      American Samoa
      Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands
      Federated States of Micronesia
      Republic of Palau

      And then there’s the Rand:

      Lesotho, Namibia and Swaziland uses the rand as their currency” though they have their own currency.

      Then there’s this:

      The official currency of Panama is the Balboa, named after Spanish explorer Vasco Núñez de Balboa, who discovered the Pacific Ocean in 1513. One Balboa is divided into 100 cents. Since 1904 one Balboa equals one US Dollar and since then, the US Dollar has legally circulated in Panama.

      Some are the official currency, some pegged, I really can’t be bothered to check with the UN how many are “INDEPENDENT” most of them I expect.

      Some people would do better talking to their lasts. OR something rhyming with it.

    203. Colin Alexander says:

      @John Young

      I’m following you on Twitter now.

      I was happy to march with and speak with some of the SNP Group of Councillors yesterday in Dumfries.

      Well done.

    204. yesindyref2 says:

      @remo
      She spells it “Mhairi”, but I found this for interest, likely true:

      Mhairi is the vocative case and Gaelic speaking Scots would not put it on a girl’s birth certificate. Her name would be Màiri, with Mhairi used in certain sentences

    205. Ruth Ogg says:

      @yesindyref2

      Thanks. I thought the spelling looked odd but, to tell the truth, I could not be arsed checking it whilst the Muse was upon me.

    206. Colin Alexander says:

      @yesindyref2

      My point extends far beyond use of a currency.

      However, Puerto Rico is an unincorporated territory of the USA: it is not independent. Guam is also not independent.

      You aren’t independent if in a union.

      For example, EU membership: member states must have their national laws fall in line with the EU’s. In day to day operation that makes the EU sovereign in many important aspects of government, agriculture and fisheries etc.

      The GDPR is the latest example of the UK being required to comply with EU law.

      However, being ultimately sovereign means, the UK member state could hold EU-Ref and leave any time it wants WITHOUT asking permission or obtaining agreement, as the UK retained ultimate sovereignty.

      Contrast that with Scotland where the UK Govt tries to assert that Scotland needs permission from the UK Govt to assert her sovereign right to exercise democratic self-determination.

      My belief is that Scotland’s people continue to retain ultimate sovereignty and should use it to withdraw from the UK Union.

    207. stu mac says:

      Yes. Though not on its own, it given as “a Mhairi”. In Gaelic M after certain vowel sounds (note vagueness of “certain”, I just don’t remember if it’s just one or more) is pronounced “V” .. Gaelic spelling shows this by adding the “h” to indicate the sound change (I presume to retain the connection to original Mairi rather than put a “v” there). I’ve seen some girls are given the name Mhairi but don’t know if they pronounce with simple “M” or pronounce “V” instead.

    208. Weechid says:

      ailsa craig says:

      2 June, 2018 at 8:12 pm

      Just a thought following on from suggestion above about a poster to every household in Mundell’s constituency.

      Would it not be more cost effective for a local-ish Wings member to get a friend/friends to distribute about 500 copies of the article to the employees personally at the plant. One day’s work; minimal photocopy costs; maximum effect from the [no doubt] very angry employees. They would not keep that a secret!

      I am 100+ [awkward] miles away – but will willingly contribute towards costs if idea is feasible

      There is a Yes Annandale group who might be willing to do this https://www.facebook.com/YesAnnandale/

    209. yesindyref2 says:

      Yadda yadda yadda

    210. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Just catching up the noo on nana‘s selection for today (thanks there, as always!), and caught an interesting quote from Helen Mountfield in Prospect:

      Yet some perverse version of Dunkirk spirit seems to persuade many people, even those who never wanted to leave the EU, that what’s done is done; the only question being how bravely we manage the withdrawal.

      That’s in England, of course, but still, an unfortunate possibility that I have aired myself more than once on here, and which provides a useful cautionary warning to anyone who still prefers to postpone indy until it’s all too, too late…

    211. Colin Alexander says:

      Yesindyref2

      Of course it all depends on your definition of independence.

      I’m not trying to rubbish the Growth Report. I take it for what it is: the opinions of some economists; others have different opinions. That’s not a problem. It’s good to discuss things- respectfully.

      Personally, I would have preferred they recommended a Scottish Pound ASAP. However, I can see why sticking with Sterling also makes sense economically – as no sudden or dramatic change would be needed for business or individuals.

      I’m already a Yesser. But we need more Yesses next time. If the Growth Commission Report helps persuade the majority to back Scotland’s operational sovereignty next time, then it’s a good thing.

      Once we have our sovereignty operational via the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government, we can do as any sovereign govt does, by adapting to our needs at the time, instead of playing crystal ball stuff, arguing over predictions about the future, which is what marred the debate in 2014.

    212. Ann Forbes says:

      Re Youngs Seafood and Eileidh Whiteford’s question to David Cameron in HOC !!
      Log in
      Sign up
      Conversation
      Meanwhile In Scotland
      Meanwhile In Scotland
      @MeanwhileScotia
      I wonder what all those workers who lost their jobs at Young’s Seafood in Fraserburgh and in Annan think of the benefits of the Union now…
      0:53
      Embedded video
      7:09 pm · 3 Jun 2018
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    213. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, the Growth Commission report has hit the unionists fair and square between the eyes, and they’re going boggle-eyed. You have some saying it totally contradicts Salmond’s White Paper in 2013-14, but others saying it’s exactly the same stuff, they just rewrote it differently.

      Meanwhile Andrew Wilson puts in the odd tweet and it gets interpreted any way people want without actually reading and wondering what it means. Great stuff. Average haa gone from below average to the lower ten percentile and dropping rapidly, soon the statisticians will be tailing him [that’s where statisticians “top and tail” data to get rid of wild extreme data].

      On another front it seems Simon French of “Panmure Gordon: Investment Bank London, Investment Banking” is impressed, enough to raise issues that make Sturgeon like his article in The Times without totally agreeing with it – which is about exactly where we’d like to be.

      And the left seems to be going off on its own which is precisely the correct thing to do – it needs different visions and plans by different groups for Indy Ref 2, but with a solid “neoliberal” report like the Growth Commission report to impress the – neoliberal establishment, without the left dragging the whole YES movement with it (as it did before basically).

      While the report itself is a “safe haven” for Independence to make it all reasonable and feasible in the eye of even the wary.

      Like many I don’t actually like what’s in it, but I certainly like the covers and the reviews 🙂

    214. louis.b.argyll says:

      Yesindyref2, 1:49pm,

      Good one. Another lie logged.

    215. geeo says:

      Britnats are going mental over the report indeed..!

      When unionist anti indy media are saying it HELPS indy cause, that can only be a good thing.

      Do people really think those who are not impressed with it, will NOT VOTE YES ??

      Now THAT is delusion, writ large as it comes.

    216. Nana says:

      Britain hints at staying in European VAT area after Brexit
      http://archive.is/9LBxq

      Brexit Nightmare: 17-Mile Traffic Jams at the Dover Border
      http://archive.is/uuSCr

      For anti establishment conservatives, insert facsists. Merkel should kick him out of Germany
      Exclusive: Trump’s Right Hand Man in Europe Wants To ‘Empower’ European Anti-Establishment Conservatives
      http://archive.is/pNFOK

    217. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning, Nana.

      Thank you, for your lovely links, it’s a nice day here and David Mundell is giving some fishy advice to Oliver.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HazQlWgdzg&ab_channel=maiza
      Kettle’s on!
      🙂

    218. Nana says:

      Good morning Smallaxe.

      It’s overcast here at the moment, looks like rain.

    219. ScottieDog says:

      Glad this has been written by prof Bill Mitchell in response to GC..
      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=39501

    220. Socrates MacSporran says:

      OFF TOPIC

      The Times story this morning: that Colonel Yadaftie was “fucking furious” at The Vow being concocted, it bad news for Scotland’s leading expectant mum.

      Other than by ignoring it, there is no way her compliant pals in the Scottish msm can spin this one to leave her looking good. Either her Imperial Masters in London didn’t rate her judgement, or they ignored her and she was never in the loop.

      The timing also looks like another case of maybe somebody at Central Office placing an impediment to the continued upward progress of Truthless.

      I can see no way whereby London will ever again allow a Scot to lead their party. The best she can ever be will be District Commissioner for the North British Region of Greter England.

      But that will only happen if we do not waken up and seize independence, and, the way the Tories, red, blue and yellow, are getting themselves into a fankle over Brexit – we will never have a better chance of doing this.

    221. ailsa craig says:

      Thanks for suggestion, Weechid. Will do.

    222. jfngw says:

      @Socrates MacSporran

      there is no way her compliant pals in the Scottish msm can spin this one

      I bet they will have a good try. Maybe it will now always be referenced as the Vow which was opposed by Ruth Davidson, to try and negate it. As if it never was actually made, to be buried in any future stories. Or am I just too sceptical of our MSM.

    223. grafter says:

      LET’S ALL GO TO BANNOCKBURN !! Saturday 23rd June !!

    224. galamcennalath says:

      jfngw says:

      referenced as the Vow which was opposed by Ruth Davidson

      Yes, they will have a go at anything! Spinning it to BritNat advantage.

      And conveniently ignore Ruth Davidson declaring Yes means leaving Europe and No means staying. Or, Ruth Davidson opposing Brexit. Or, Ruth Davidson opposing leaving the single market.

      She only survives by distancing herself from her own party’s policies and a tame media which does a ‘turd polishing job’ with her.

    225. frogesque says:

      @ grafter 12.08

      I’m punting a turnout of 100,000 good souls (and a few dugs) for Bannockburn. Any advances?!

      We are Scotland, we can do it!

    226. Marie Clark says:

      Folks, I would love to join you at Bannockburn, But unfortunately
      I have a prior engagement that I can’t get out of. I’ll be with you all in spirit though. Dumfries was awesome on Saturday.

      It would be amazing to get a turnout of 100,000.

    227. jfngw says:

      Already a MSM journo trying to turn this ‘against the vow’ into a positive Davidson line. I think he is trying to say, look at her integrity she was always against it. This could be correct if it had been said in 2014, in 2018 it is just nonsense.

      Then we have the Euan McColm frother, claiming that what Scotland votes for is irrelevant, no country should get the party the majority voted for (in UK terms that’s seats not votes). Unless presumably that country is England which has 100% seats/gov compared to Scotland’s 30% since 1979 (almost 40 years). But having occasionally read his column it always appears to be a seething SNP hatred diatribe, in my opinion, so best ignored.

    228. Socrates MacSporran says:

      If David Mundell had a shred of decency, or dignity, he would have realised – when the Government, of which you are a member and in which you hold a Cabinet position, acts in such a way as to disadvantage your constituents, by assisting a company to close a factory in said constituency, with the consequent loss of 450 jobs – then that is a resigning matter.

      No Cabinet Minister, who has, under the terms of “cabinet responsibility” been a party to this decision can fail to resign from the government. It would be morally reprehensible not to.

      Of course, it is Mundell we are speaking about here – he will carry-on and hope it goes away, safe in the knowledge, the Scottish msm media will not question him on his betrayal of his constituents.

    229. gus1940 says:

      As far as the Metropolitan Broadcast and Print Media are concerned it would appear that saturday’s AUOB march in Dumfries did not take place.

      They are obviously unaware of or choose to ignore the significance of the Glasgow and Dumfries marches together with the other forthcoming marches.

      Can I suggest that, to open both their own eyes and the populace of England, The YES Bikers organise an expedition with flags flying down the M6 and M1 and on arriving in London a quick visit to Westminster then along Whitehall, a few laps of Trafalgar Square, through Admiralty Arch and up The Mall to Buck House.

    230. Gary says:

      One the one hand we DO have high expectations of the SNP government. What with them saving steel production in Scotland and managing to get the last working privately owned shipyard on the Clyde to reopen and expand it’s business.

      On the other hand…it’s almost as if someone were being paid to DISinvest in Scotland. Being an old codger who remembers the 80s I remember that words like ‘rationalisation’ were bandied about when the Scottish site was closed and jobs moved south on a daily basis. Because it’s RATIONAL to close Scottish plants and factories, they’re ‘too far away’ (an actual quote from a dolt on a BT page a few years back)

      Scotland has excellent industry but this is NOT helped when Westminster PAYS companies to close their businesses here and move the jobs to their own ministers constituencies.

      Yes, corrupt and conniving. Something they used to call ‘managed decline’ again, back in the 80s.

      We need OUT! If only to stop them using OUR money to bribe employers to take OUR businesses, OUR jobs and OUR wages and giving them to someone else…

    231. Macandroid says:

      Any thoughts of a worker buyout, funding aided by Wingers?

      But not the business – only the infrastructure once the business is gone, then compete with Young’s. Costs cheaper possibly with less management overhead, routes to market still in place and produce from suppliers re-established.

    232. orri says:

      Would be pleasantly surprised if moving production isn’t literal and the machinery doesn’t get taken to Grimsby.

      Even if it doesn’t my expectation would be that as much of it as possible will be sold if not as a going concern then for scrap.

      Slash and Burn. Or simply cutting down on competition before it gets started. You choose.

    233. galamcennalath says:

      From WoS twitter …

      “Scotland has voted Tory for just 6 years out of 73 “

      and

      “Scotland has had Tory governments for 43 out of 73 year “

      Which means we have had Tory governments which we didn’t vote for, for 37 years out of 73.

      That is marginally MORE THAN HALF of the time!

      Democracy inside their Union …. a bad joke at Scotland’s expense.

    234. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      orri @ 16:42,

      Quite some years ago, my late redoubtable American aunt observed in her PhD thesis that Ravenscraig was wrecked rather than sold as a going concern (which it could have been) because British Steel specifically didn’t want a Scottish competitor.

      That’s “pooling and sharing”, BritNat-style. Our oil used to pay for all that “managed decline”, and precious little left to show for it. T’was ever thus.

      Maybe it takes a fair-minded foreigner to see it, but it still amazes me that there is anyone left in Scotland who still doesn’t get it. (Mostly those who only watch the BBC, presumably.)

      But somehow the realisation does seem to be percolating, painfully slowly as it may be, thanks to word-of-mouth and sites like this.

    235. Bobp says:

      Macandroid 4.18pm..yeah wingers could probably crowdfund them. The SG could maybe step in and bail them out. What happens then? They’ll still vote for mundell at the next election. Nah, maybe a bit of tough love is whats needed here to remind people of the broken bt promises.

    236. CameronB Brodie says:

      Britain’s regional policy has been in crises since the stagflation of the early 1970s. Thatcher’s handbag dealt it a hefty blow and now it is no longer fit to address Britain’s spatial disparities in economic performance. Regional policy is most certainly vulnerable to the effects of ideology, institutional prejudice and discrimination.

      Critical Perspectives on Devolved Governance
      Planning and Governance in the 21st Century

      Foreword

      The RTPI’s centenary year was marked by a proliferation of research on planning’s contribution to wider societal issues such as climate change, public health, economic growth and governance. Making Better Decisions for Places in particular emphasises the importance of ingratiating a reflection on the appropriate level of decision-making into the policy making process. The RTPI symposium Critical Reflections on Devolved Models of Governance, which took place in April 2015 at UCL, carried on this conversation by encouraging a critical perspective towards devolution and considering what the current devolution agenda means for policy. As the representative body for planners, the RTPI is accustomed to bringing together different professions and disciplines, so it was fitting that the policy and research team welcomed such a wide range of speakers from academia, the private sector, the public sector, and civil society.

      Devolution is in danger of being annexed by political rhetoric so it was refreshing to hear a range of speakers reflecting on what the devolution agenda actually means from a policy point of view. As a follow up to the symposium this volume contains a series of contributions that strike a balance between critical realism and positive, long term policy making….

      http://www.rtpi.org.uk/media/1380485/Governance%20pamphlet%2012%205%2015%202.pdf

      WHERE IS REGIONAL POLICY GOING?
      CHANGING CONCEPTS OF REGIONAL POLICY

      http://www.eprc.strath.ac.uk/eorpa/Documents/EoRPA_01_Papers/EoRPA_01-5.pdf

      A NEW REGIONAL POLICY FOR THE UK
      https://www.ippr.org/files/images/media/files/publication/2011/05/A_new_regional_policy_for_the_UK_1292.pdf

    237. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalists are desperate to keep Scotland down, though some of them obviously believe they are acting in the nation’s best interests.

      @ British nationalists
      Scotland is a nation, not a region of England. The correct location for political decision to be made concerning Scotland’s economy, is Scotland, not London.

      SPATIALLY REBALANCING THE UK ECONOMY:
      THE NEED FOR A NEW POLICY MODE

      SUMMARY

      The recent political concern over spatial economic imbalance in the UK is a rediscovery of a much longer standing problem that goes back a century or more, but which has intensified over the past three decades.

      Regional disparities in economic performance in the UK are now greater than those found in any other European country.

      The UK has had regional policies for nearly ninety years, but these have struggled to reduce spatial economic imbalance across the country.

      This experience suggests that such polices have been based on an incorrect or inadequate diagnosis of the causes of that imbalance.

      The rise of a ‘new spatial economics’ has challenged previous explanations of uneven regional and local economic development, and has highlighted the importance of spatial agglomeration, urban density, ‘spatial sorting’ of workers, and the dismantling of planning restrictions as key to urban and regional economic growth.

      However, the approach is suspicious of policy intervention to secure greater spatial balance, and argues that, apart from freeing up planning, people-based policies are more effective than place-based policies.

      In some variants, spatial imbalance is not only seen as economically efficient but also an equilibrium outcome.

      While such ideas have more recently been used to argue for a major metro-region ‘powerhouse’ in northern England to rival London, they neither provide a comprehensive account of spatial economic imbalance in the UK as a whole, nor a convincing basis for reducing that imbalance.

      Ultimately, spatial economic imbalance in the UK has to do with the progressive concentration of economic, political and financial power in London and its environs. The UK has one of the most centralized systems of public finance, policy-making and political control among OECD nations.

      The UK’s northern areas have the underlying potential to ‘turn around’ from the decline of their industrial base
      but this will require a step change in the level and control of the resources that are made available to them.

      No significant or lasting reduction in spatial economic imbalance will be achieved without ‘decentering’ the key institutional structures that make up the UK’s national political economy, involving:

      The decentralisation and devolution of large sections of public finance to a new system of ‘federated’ regions or city-regions, going beyond the fiscal evolution suggested by Lord Heseltine.

      An explicit machinery within government to influence and monitor the spatial impact of central government expenditures and policies.

      New regions or city-regions as the key units of spatial economic governance, and locally accountable as such.

      The establishment of a national investment bank with a regional or city-regional organizational structure, which would focus explicitly on raising capital for SMEs, advanced manufacturing and infrastructure in the regions and city-regions.

      Reform of the UK tax system to align the objectives of spatial and sectoral rebalancing, for example through new instruments such as ‘Advanced Manufacturing Bonds’ with favourable tax treatment to increase the flow of funds into advanced manufacturing.

      A commission or similar formal body to be established to consider how best to achieve this spatial decentering of the national political economy, what the appropriate territorial units should be, and the powers they should have.

      http://www.regionalstudies.org/uploads/documents/SRTUKE_v16_PRINT.pdf

    238. CameronB Brodie says:

      Neo-classical economic theory got us into the economic crises we face, it most certainly will not deliver us from evils of neoliberalism.

      Economic Lives: How Culture Shapes the Economy
      http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt7rgdv

    239. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Robert J. Sutherland at 5.19

      I stood much of a day with Tommy Brennan at Fir Park School in Motherwell on the day of a council by election (an Elspeth Allan was our candidate – hello Elspeth if you’re still around). The battle to save Ravenscraig was in full mode. Tommy,who was supporting the Labour candidate was the leader of the trade unions in the plant. Under Tommy’s leadership the workers at Ravenscraig were smashing European production records -despite deliberately no material repairs to the plant or its furnaces.

      Tommy was sure their efforts would save the plant. I told him no matter what they did Ravenscraig would close and its work would be transferred to Tees-side because a political decision had been taken to close down Scottish Steel in favour of Tees-side and South Wales which,when they finished us off by closing Gartcosh as well was exactly what happened (despite Gartcosh producing the best finished steel in the UK and was the motor industry’s preferred supplier).

      I was gratified to see Tommy on all the YES platforms at the referendum.

    240. Nana says:

      This week, The Full Scottish is on the road again, to bring coverage of the All Under One Banner march in Dumfries and the usual top quality in depth discussion, from Maggie Gordon’s Barfil farm in Crocketford in the heart of Dumfries and Galloway. Our guests on the programme are Amanda Burgauer, Chair of Scottish Rural Action, Calum Kerr, Former SNP MP, Richard Arkless, lawyer and former SNP MP and Maggie Gordon.

      Full Scottish – 03/06/2018
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxXxnnLDwTs

    241. Breeks says:


      Macandroid says:
      4 June, 2018 at 4:18 pm
      Any thoughts of a worker buyout, funding aided by Wingers?

      But not the business – only the infrastructure once the business is gone, then compete with Young’s. Costs cheaper possibly with less management overhead, routes to market still in place and produce from suppliers re-established…

      The thing that appeals to me about a separate plant is that assuming Scotland stays in the EU, and England Brexits, a truly Scottish plant would obviously find it easier to maintain convergence with EU standards, while the English plant would struggle to export produce to Europe if there was a tariff to pay and Scottish plant fulfilling demand.

      If I was on the the board of Young’s, closing a Scottish plant which might stay in Europe to shore up an English plant which won’t, doesn’t seem the brightest strategy. £1.3 million sounds like a good bung, but a bit short sighted with Brexit looming. In relative terms, £1.3 million is nothing.

      The possible fly in the ointment is Holyrood’s inconsistency / ambivalence about actually staying in the EU, or fudging a Soft Brexit EFTA deal.

      Flying off on a minor tangent, another thing I wonder about is whether Europe has funding options to help a “new” member state like an Independent Scotland to essentially “cauterise” any wounds or damage to cross-border businesses who might be disadvantaged by a combination of Brexit and Indy, and help with remedial investment to keep the business trading smoothly.

      I don’t know, but my EU Spidey senses suggest it’s the “kind” of support the EU likes to give, to help maintain convergence criteria.

      I know it’s a divisive issue for some, but I honestly just don’t see an EFTA arrangement working anywhere near as well. EU Membership is by far a much, much, superior option. Nobody can persuade me why an EFTA deal is better, just that it’s apparenty easier to secure than EU Membership. That might be true, but it’s only easier to agree because it’s a lightweight arrangement when compared beside full heavyweight EU Membership. There’s no potency in it. It’s a Trade Deal, and nothing more. Membership has rights and perks and an awful lot of them.

    242. Legerwood says:

      Breeks @ 11.02pm

      In a report in the Express in Jan 2018 Youngs was expanding its business in America and looking to expand into China .

      http://archive.is/4PL30

      In April 2018 it was announced that Youngs is up for sale.

    243. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 11.02
      The attraction,for EFTA, as far as I can see is …
      It keeps the Trade deals alive till we get ourselves organised.
      We will be negotiating with Westminster,and that will mean having to have eyes in the back of our head’s,even to identify our resources,never mind getting control of them.

      We will be writing a Constitution,obviously as I’m sure you will agree THE most important thing… and not to be left to “the usual suspects” ,we need to really pay attention to that.

      Therefore – before – we negotiate our EU membership,Scotland has to be in a position to go to the table,with all her wealth identified,and her Constitutional arrangements clear.
      That’s how we get an actual “Bespoke” EU membership … or not…
      Mibbi by then EFTA or The EEA will be the clear arrangements that work best for us,and, therefore the preferred choice of the Scottish People..

      Do you see what I’m sayin?
      We do not need to apply for EU membership as hopeful applicant’s, but rather as a Nation with something to give as well as something to gain..

    244. mike cassidy says:

      Insomniacs might fancy this dug up from 1954.

      A BBC Radio Scotland crime serial

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b51vyp

      by this guy

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Boyd_(writer)

      and very influenced by the Raymond Chandler school of writing!

    245. Allan Stewart says:

      I’m not certain that the shrinking of Young’s (aka MacRae’s) in Fraserburgh was a result of a similar deal to the one which has sunk the Annan plant. Young’s in Fraserburgh was heavily committed to a Sainsbury contract which they lost to the new Marine Harvest ‘added-value’ processing site in Rosyth. Theoretically, the processing jobs moved south nut stayed in Scotland although I doubt it was 1 for 1.

    246. twathater says:

      O/T Indycar Gordon Ross on Dumfries and Arlenes visit

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EVK5kZdNGo&feature=em-uploademail

      My comment re the dangers

      Gordon I wholeheartedly agree with your description of GRIP , but I have very grave concerns if in the event that brexit goes forward with no Borders in Ireland and there appears to be a determined shift for reunification , Scotland could have a massive influx of people determined at any cost to remain within the union , which would create an almost insurmountable problem for our independence cause . We have witnessed over many years the unstoppable violence perpetrated on innocent people from both sides whose only concern is to further their cause , the deliberate segregation of people determined by their religion and beliefs who are almost at war with their neighbouring estates . This situation must be prevented at ANY cost , the SG must have an intractable determination that ANY person suspected or convicted of ANY terrorist activity or having any link to illegal organisations will be denied residence in Scotland . Let us not fool ourselves the very fact that the OO and the brit nats are acceptable cohorts of the wastemonster govt leads me to believe they would willingly use any avenue to PUNISH independent Scotland .?

    247. yesindyref2 says:

      Andrew Wilson really has the yoons (a word I very rarely use, and NOT for normal NO voters) in meltdown, keep it up Andrew. A bit silly of Shafi to join Below Average, doesn’t do his own credibility any good, and his is a grossly different angle, he’s genuinely interested in the “austerity” aspect, whereas Below Average just seeks to destroy, as do his sheep [1]. What was that again about sup and long spoons?

      https://twitter.com/AndrewWilson/status/1003727416211144704

      [1] Well, Rache ist süß 🙂

    248. Breeks says:

      Liz g says:
      5 June, 2018 at 12:28 am

      Breeks @ 11.02
      The attraction,for EFTA, as far as I can see is …

      Yes Liz, I understand all that – as Plan B .

      The bit I cannot reconcile is fighting to defeat Scotland’s Brexit by allowing Scotland’s Brexit to be dictated by Westminster. We are setting the battleground for a Constitutional fight but straight away conceding Sovereignty to Westminster.

      The difference is this…

      Westminster says we’ll be Brexited. Do stand firm and say No we won’t, or do we kneel down and say well OK then, and mutter on about the small print?

      If we don’t defend the sovereign majority which rejected Brexit, the majority is a matter of academic record, what we admit defeat over is our Sovereignty.

    249. Nana says:

      May is a dictator
      http://archive.is/Pa734

      Executives at No 10 business advisory council ask for more information to adequately prepare for trade post-Brexit
      http://archive.is/O34bG

      “The government is asking businesses to sign Non Disclosure Agreements when they talk to them about the outcomes of Brexit”.
      https://www.facebook.com/OFOCBrexit/videos/1870975069862626/

      https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/home-affairs/immigration/news/95676/theresa-may-insists-net-migration-will-be-reduced-tens

    250. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Many thanks for the punt Nana. It’s appreciated. 🙂

      I’ve been off on family business since the end of last week and came home to instantly start on minding the dug’s store. Pretty much why I haven’t been posting much recently.

    251. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      The dug has left the shop in good hands 🙂

    252. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning, Nana, Thank you for your links.
      Kettle’s on!
      🙂

    253. Nana says:

      Morning Smallaxe 🙂

    254. Footsoldier says:

      O/T Looking for the date of the next march, I looked into the AUOB website https://allunderonebanner.com and what I found is that it has not been updated since 2017.

      The next march is advertised as Glasgow 3 June 2017.

    255. Daisy Walker says:

      O/T
      I thought I’d type up my notes from The Indy Workshop in Dundee on 3rd June 2018, and if you feel its worth sharing, please do.  I found the day very useful and most importantly – practical, plus it was good to hear collective best practice pulled together and presented in the one place. I scribbled my notes on the hoof, so if there are errors or misquotes I apologised, and take full responsability.

      The day started by looking at what worked with regards canvassing in 2014… and how we could build on that and do it better.

      While in 2014 the rallying cry if you like was that if every yes voter could convert just one person, we would get over the line.  The advice this time, with the numbers as they now are, to be more specific about who canvasses where – and if someone is not cut out or comfortable for the front facing canvassing – they do the behind the scenes stuff.  We now have to convert one person out of 5 to get over the finishing line.

      Not that they are advocating complacency – we want to win big as a movement, and for that to happen we need to be 

      systematic – ensure no voter is missed

      we need to utilise our big strength which is one to one, peer to peer, round the door canvassing.

      There are 100’s of techniques, for example, getting locals on posters, allowing them to tell their stories and build on their ideas.

      One point stressed for one to one conversations is ‘its not about winning arguments’, and ’no-one was ever converted by shouting’.  This was repeated in nearly all the workshops, in different ways, Greg Moodie quoted Voltaire ‘It is not enough to conquer, we must learn to seduce’, and Lesley Riddoch stated, however tempting it is to lose your cool and give a ‘Chippie’ answer. you might feel good in the moment, but you will have lost your audience sympathy.  And (thankfully) Maggie Chapman, who also stressed the importance of this, also recognised that at some time ‘we’ve all done it’, because we care and we’re only human.

      An aspect of this was the 80% rule, don’t go in 110%, go in at 80% and give the recipient space to meet you.

      An overall theme is Know Your Area – And Tailor Your Message

      and for that 4 key tied dimensions are:

      Purpose
      People
      Place
      Time

      For that to work, we are looking at Mapping our areas, sharing resources and coordination between groups.

      Doing it Better

      In 2014 campaigning tended to follow the mapped areas of Constituencies, but that is not how people self identify, e.g. where are you from – Scotland, Dundee, Lochee?  We should consider campaigning round areas people identify with.

      To that end, and from a practical point of view, they recommended the use of Free App TRELLO.com and the use of open street maps

      Negotiate and agree borders with other groups

      Subdivide areas within your borders and consider the use of the Comrade System of voter register.

      Practically look to have 1 organiser for 10 volunteers, and a campaign area of 500 voters.

      Maggie Chapman provided valuable input in terms of recognising that we need to reach People who feel disillusioned (former Yes voters) and / or existing No voters.

      A big plus for us is that Independence transcends Party Politics.

      The power of face to face, peer to peer conversations is key, as is building trust and understanding our communities, networks and hierarchies.  And it’s OK to admit we don’t know everything.

      1/Basic Level – give information (must be accurate, numerous methods)

      2/ Consulting – i.e. collecting info, ask people what their concerns are (need to build trust by letting folk know how it will be used, what will be done with it and where it will go)

      3/ Get People involved – by understanding their hopes, fears and aspirations

      4/Community Events

      5/Collaborative Events – bring other in to take the lead

      6/List all the resources you’ll need, time, people, skillets, equipment, other groups.

      Most importantly – It Should Be FUN

      Lesley Riddoch in a very tight time schedule, provided a real masterclass in interview techniques.

      She is often asked how she keeps her cool when ‘provoked’ by difficult questions when interviewed.  She finds the question extraordinary, and asked us all to dig a bit deep into ourselves to find out why we would have that reaction.

      She prepares for interviews in the following ways, and this helps her keep her cool, get her message across, and not loose the audience.

      One she always ’thinks Mum’.  i.e. would this answer be suitable for my Mum (no swear words, keeping it grounded, with no unnecessary long show off words).

      Any interview is always going to follow 2 golden rules

      They are always going to ask the most difficult question they can.  So prepare for it.  They will likely tie that in with something topical on the day.

      The example she gave was in the papers this date, The Times had a story about EU Cliff Edge Exit – Doomsday scenario, food shortages in 2 days.  The question being, if that could happen to Great Britain how would a poor wee Indy Scotland ever cope?

      She prepared her answer re the different styles of Government – the Scottish Government has tried to build relationships and avoid cliff edges, there is legal precedent for small countries going Indy, international Law, Maritime Law, etc, so its been done before.

      The Second golden rule, Is what message do I want to deliver.  You need to know this.

      In any interview you’re likely only going to get a chance to say 2 things well.

      People hate the robot, script, message – it’s a total switch off.  If you can embed your message in a story, you’re likely to speak more naturally and speak well.

      Your body language will convey 60% of the message, be aware of this.  Love your voice – especially if you have a Scottish accent.

      Verbally rehearse your answers, don’t just write them down, but practice them (the car is very useful for this).

      Pat Joyce from Fife College went on to give a lecture on how to shoot video interviews, which was very practical, and more technical, but one point he made which overlaps with Lesley Riddoch’s was that you have 60 –  90 seconds to 2 minutes max to hold people’s attention.

      Another very important message he provided, which from the point of view of converting people to Yes I thought was essential – Start not from where You are, but from where your audience is.  What do they know/believe about the topic?

      If appropriate include contributors who represent your audience in terms of age, gender, class, etc.

      I have to apologise at this point – there was a very successful input provided by a ‘youth’ who’s name I did not catch, unfortunately I was not able to attend this session, and can only provide that it went down well.

      Elen Hopfer from EU Nationals for Indy gave a very practical talk at the end of the day.  They are working on an adjacent App called Indy Goal to assist the Indy App.  It will have a Central Calander for all events, which does not currently exist, and have a Competency Hub, among other things.

      I hope I’ve noted the following down correctly, but I think she said they have 40,000 regular users of their website and 1,000,000 hits per month.

      They would be delighted to provide translations for the Indy movement (and already do so) she asks that any requests are clear and specific about what they want.  She would welcome anyone getting in touch if they have questions or information they can use.

      Last but not least – the event allowed for networking and exchange of ideas.

      A couple of points I got from that – nationally we need posters generic in message, that can be slightly tailored to individual areas, and it would be really good if we can arrange single point of contact/designers, proof readers/printers for that to happen nationally rather that each area, each group reinventing the wheel for each one.

      Jason from Edinburgh is concerned that the Yes logo may be off-putting for some, and suggested an additional logo might be ‘For a better Scotland’  and introduced the term Indy Curious.

      With regards Mapping of areas and voters, age profile areas etc, do we need to consider mapping businesses in our local areas, with regards how Brexit is going to impact on them?

      Like I said the above day’s workshop crammed a lot of information in and was very well worth it.  I understand they intend to hold more soon.  I really recommend attending if you can.  

      Great big thank you to the organisers and speakers.

    256. galamcennalath says:

      @Nana

      Thanks for links, as always.

      Ian Dunt in article says ….

      “If there is a compromise position it would probably involve customs union and single market membership for industrial goods but an exemption for agriculture, so that the UK has something to offer trading partners to secure penetration of its financial services.”

      Which really means, throw Scottish agriculture and food production under the train and allow the supermarkets to be flooded with dodge cheap food!

      A few days ago, the meat industry’s chairman gave warning …

      http://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/16261067.Industry_leaders_highlight_tough_times_ahead_for_sheep_sector/

      You should pigeon hole people, but statically those same farmers who are now worried were NO, Tory, and possibly even Leave voters.

      Callously, I could say, “Well Hell mend them”.

      However, we have an independence referendum to win (soon I hope). It would be a game changer if farmers saw the light and realised the Tories and London do not have their interest at heart and will sell them out for other areas deemed by the Tories to matter more.

      The SNP and the SG DO have Scottish farming interests up front. It is an industry and iScotland needs to be strong and healthy.

      Perhaps (I think wishfully) farmers, and rural folk in general, will see that independence close to the EU is what they should be backing.

    257. Smallaxe says:

      Police report on AUOB Dumfries, about 1min 20 secs in;
      https://www.facebook.com/DumfriesGallowayPoliceDivision/videos/1729515553795415/?fref=mentions

      Well done All!
      🙂

    258. frogesquem says:

      @Footsoldier 9.19

      AUOB Facebook page, Events

      Upcoming events

      March for Independence- Bannockburn
      JUN
      23
      13:00
      Stirling
      Stirling

      March for Independence- Inverness
      JUL
      28
      13:00
      Inverness
      Inverness

      March for Independence- Dundee
      AUG
      25
      13:00
      Dundee
      Dundee

    259. Breeks says:

      If I was mischievous Union disrupter at heart, and say, in a position to do it, say in charge of both Local Government and Law, and say too it was against a backdrop of sleazy, lying politicians with a hand up their backside owned by the BBC, I might think about setting aside a few million quid for our very own Scottish FBI “type” specialist anti-corruption organisation.

      For a start, it would be clear “Sovereign” territory, so Westminster couldn’t stop us, it would actually put the fear of God into Local Government and their shady protocols, corruption and nepotism, especially if your “sins” would haunt and hunt you down beyond retirement. I cannot see it being unpopular with the proles like me, but it might focus a few darkened minds, a bit like late war Nazi SS types worried about War Crimes trials in the aftermath of defeat. Let me stress, I’m not comparing Unionists to Nazis, but merely referencing the fall of Nazism for the position of absolute power and impunity being overturned and meeting its day of judgment.

      In Venn diagram terms, and anti-Corruption unit might also create an interesting beachhead overlap into Broadcasting… say if the BBC was found to be corrupt or failing by our very own Elliot Ness in an untouchable anti corruption Unit.

      What if the Electoral Commission found itself with a similar embarrassing dilemma? Hmmm…

      Press Complaints… who watches the watchers? In fact, what if our Anti-Corruption specialists kept UK regulators honest? Did I say “kept”? I’ve not have breakfast yet…

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/the-uk-is-a-global-corruption-centre-campaigners-claim-a7058126.html

      Sorry, doesn’t want to archive.

      And just a little rejoinder to my earlier comment… @Liz. It strikes me that those who like EFTA are seeing Brexit fundamentally as an EU issue. I just see it different. I simply see Brexit as a Constitutional issue and a binary attack on Sovereignty, either we are sovereign, or they are. If we allow ourselves to be bought off and pacified with reassurances about EFTA, we might be pacified and reassured but we will also have sold ourselves out in Constitutional terms. And not just indirect Constitutional terms either, but our crystal clear and unambiguous capitulation over Sovereign principles.

      Brexit is their choice they want to force on us. Sovereign Independence is our choice I hope we force on them. But EFTA is our choice to accept their choice to overrule ours. EFTA is therefor dead to me. For me, it’s EU or bust.

      It’s binary. We are sovereign or they are.

    260. smac1314 says:

      Thanks Nana for the best news aggregation service on the planet. Reading the rank incompetence of the Tories in Brexit is both enlightening and truly terrifying.

    261. Nana says:

      @galamcennalath

      Some time ago I saw a picture of a really dodgy American product sold as food! Went to look further into it and was thoroughly sickened. Products you would not feed to your family pet, pumped full of goodness knows what to extend the counter life and to make it appear more appetising Yuk!

      I’m afraid if we don’t get out of this union nightmare none of us will know what is on our plates.

    262. Nana says:

      Good morning smac1314 🙂

    263. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 9.52
      Totally on board with an anti corruption unit,but I think we need to address the lobbyists first… as in,it should be shut down and not allowed…
      As for EFTA…
      I don’t see Brexit as the reason for Independence but rather the cause of it happening at this point in time.
      Indy ref two is not a vote to save our (lets face it UK ) EU membership.

      It’s because, Scotland voted democratically for an outcome it cannot have because of it’s UK Union membership and this brought the Democratic Deficit to an unacceptable point.

      I know its always been there and that Scotland has always gotten a bad deal in the Union.
      But up to an including 2014 the people of Scotland either couldn’t or wouldn’t do anything about it, and so their Sovereignty remains exercised at Westminster.

      Because they did that the Current Treaties with the EU are gone.
      We can’t keep them.
      And given we are where we are.. We should respond/use it to get where we need to be.
      Not rush in to sign up to an EU membership that has the potential to fall short of the deal we could have gotten had we waited to define and get control of all our resources.

      Scotland might have voted to stay in the EU with the UK terms and Conditions in 2016, but that vote can’t be used to go ahead with a Scotland only membership.

      My main concern though is our Constitution..
      We should not be prevented from putting anything in our Constitution because of a Trade deal.

      EG that any and ALL Unions have a sunset clause of 25year’s and will expire automatically if the people haven’t voted in a Referendum to keep the Treaties live…..

      We should,I think,negotiate Scotland’s EU membership as a Nation who knows it’s worth and with an approved (by the people) Constitution.
      That’s a Sovereign Decision Breeks,one that’s not on the back of the 2016 vote,that was a UK project!

    264. galamcennalath says:

      For comic relief, very little compares to the Express. A current headline ….

      ” ‘Brussels is SPINNING out the talks’ Ministers urged to UNITE to stop EU ‘wasting time’ “

      …. not much you can say about that!

    265. Breeks says:

      That’s a Sovereign Decision Breeks,one that’s not on the back of the 2016 vote,that was a UK project!…

      But the votes of Scottish people in 2016 were votes of Sovereign people. There was a Sovereign mandate for the UK to stay in the EU. If you’re sovereign, by literal definition, you cannot be overruled. So what are we? Overruled OR Sovereign? Because we cannot be both. That’s your Union busting quandary right there.

      Sovereignty is everything and forever. A vote, any vote, is just an ephemeral whim in moment of time.

    266. Dan Huil says:

      Proposed AUOB march for Edinburgh in October?

      FWIW I’ll be going to Inverness march on July 28th. Here’s the route:

      https://www.plotaroute.com/route/608632

    267. ScottieDog says:

      Good myth busting stuff and well worth a read concerning using sterling and the view of the growth commission..
      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=39506

    268. HandandShrimp says:

      https://twitter.com/mjkindependent/status/1003789584554188800?s=21

      Anybody know what the background to this is?

    269. Liz g says:

      Handshrimp @ 11.44
      Without going into to much details publicly..
      I “think” the guy and his very friendly dugs are a regular presence around Holyrood, almost resident’s!
      It would be hard to believe that Ruth the mooth doesn’t know this fine well

    270. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Probably this:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/ruth-davidson-lie-watch/

      Looks like Dean Halliday is the “man with the dogs” in the WoS article above and in the photo with Colonel Yadaftie you linked to.

    271. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      replying to @HandandShrimp in my post at 12:08hrs, sorry didn’t make it clear.

      Also even bigger lie than we originally thought if what LizG says is true and El Colonel was aware of the guys identity as a Holyrood Regular.

    272. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 09:52:

      If we allow ourselves to be bought off and pacified with reassurances about EFTA, we might be pacified and reassured but we will also have sold ourselves out in constitutional terms.

      That’s an interesting way to put it. I had never thought of it explicitly in those terms, but it’s true. Being pacified by something second-rate at the behest of others, not the best option by our own free choice. And we can never have a free choice until we can make decisions without imposition by anyone else.

      The other side of the same coin are all those damned mitigation demands that you get, especially from NorthBritLab. But there’s only so much mitigation that you can do to patch up someone else’s poor choice being forced upon you. Mitigation is the cringe made manifest.

      (Of course, the EEA/EFTA thing has only come about because the SG has been trying hard to keep the whole UK in the single market, because that will make our subsequent independence an easier sell. It’s just that some people have tried to push the issue beyond that narrow point in the hope that it might assuage yes-leavers. Whereas the majority of the latter, I believe, recognise that sovereignity is the real issue and will continue to vote yes regardless, while the minority who believe that immigration is the big deal are already long gone given the SG’s unambiguous comments on that particular subject.)

    273. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 11.39
      The outcome you seem to be arguing for doesn’t exist.
      The EU Treaties were made and broken while Scotland’s Sovereignty was exercised at Westminster… they are gone.
      By agreement of the two parties who signed them.
      Sovereignty is a two way street and ye cannot expect that Westminster will defer to ours.
      Infact when it was pointed out that they could put all the countries being required to vote to leave before the Brexit vote would be valid they point blank refused.
      There is no quandary the two forms of Sovereignty are incompatible,always have been.
      Westminster has danced on the head of a pin for year’s to hide this and always put theirs first.
      But to go along with this..is in and of itself a Sovereign decision since 2014….
      But the 1707 Union that Scotland finally ratified in 2014,has lasted only 4 year’s before being shown to be unworkable.

      That we ARE overruled while we stay in the UK Union IS the deal… they even tell us (we voted as the UK) regularly.
      The Sovereignty bit …. Is the ability to reject the UK Union membership… and…. has very little to do with our EU membership.
      Westminster is only offering this arrangement it will not and cannot make any other… We stay in it and accept this or we leave.
      IMO.. That’s the issue that should be front and centre of the Indy debate,not the bloody pound!
      But nevertheless… When we make new Constitutional arrangements for Scotland,we shouldn’t consider ourselves bound by a vote that was taken as a UK member.
      Would you argue the same for NATO?
      But more than that…. Should we put any Court above our own Constitutional Court,would you say?
      America doesn’t ,I understand that’s the reason it wouldn’t sign up to the Human Rights treaties.
      Or don’t you think these decisions around what kind of Country and Constitution we have should come before any international commitments especially when the justification for going ahead is based on a UK vote for UK Treaties?
      An Independent Scotland shouldn’t be bound to join the EU by a UK organised vote.
      And Holyrood,I would argue, doesn’t have a mandate from that vote to make New EU Treaties when the vote was for the old one’s!

    274. ronnie anderson says:

      HandandShrimp I said at time the Video was released the Ruthie was a lier , she well knows Dean Halliday Dean being a long time resident at the Holyrood Indy Camp & its not the 1st time Dean has met Ruthie Dean is a constituent of Ruthies & has every right to approach his MSP ( as she doesn’t do surgeries )

    275. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 12:56,

      Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying there (and I hope not putting the wrong words into your mouth!), but you seem to be taking the Unionist position that Scotland’s universal vote against Brexit in 2016 is rendered entirely meaningless within a Union context. If so, I can’t possibly agree with that.

      Brexit is only one example, but a particularly salient one, of how there is a clear and growing political and social divergence between the peoples of Scotland and England, and the gross democratic deficit that results is crying out to be addressed. Given the complete lack of will by our big neighbour, the only fair and practical resolution is separation.

      After independence, any issue can of course be re-visited, including our relationship with the EU. If enough people feel strongly about that, of course we can have another referendum. But given what we know already, and given a new-found freedom from tainted southern media and political sources on the subject, all that additional botheration is very unlikely to have a different outcome from 2016. Given what we are learning as time passes, it is highly probable that after all the effort, a new vote will be even more resounding than the last.

      Which is why I suspect all the fake democrats, many on the extremes of politics, are desperate for the UK to have its evil way on the matter before then.

    276. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I suspect “Ruth Davidson slanders constituent who was only trying to ask her a question due to the fact she has only held one surgery since being elected in May 2016 despite pocketing her £61,778 salary in full each year”

      Is a statement you will not hear spoken by or see written in the BritNat Media @ronnie anderson says at 2:23 pm

      Nor will STV or BBC BritNats door step her either.

    277. Breeks says:

      Liz g says:
      5 June, 2018 at 12:56 pm
      Breeks @ 11.39
      The outcome you seem to be arguing for doesn’t exist…

      Correct. Brexit is the deliberate, unconstitutional subjugation of Scotland, which creates an existential crisis for the widely held belief that Scottish Citizens are sovereign. Our differences are irreconcilable and the Union cannot survive them.

      We might very well be doomed to expulsion from the EU, by Westminster’s proxy misadventure, but there should be a mighty price which Westminster has to pay for it. We should be kicking and screaming about it, and terminating the Union because of it. Instead we are fishing for deals and compromises, and trying to find face saving ways of living with the assault on our sovereignty and our unconstitutional subjugation and removal from Europe.

      I don’t want a deal. I want a full on head to head Constitutional Crisis, one which the Union cannot survive.

      We are developing a bit of a reputation here. We created a Constitutional Crisis for Westminster by winning an outright majority at Holyrood. We created a Constitutional Crisis for Scotland when we voted No to Independence. We created another Constitutional crisis for Westminster with a massive SNP majority in Westminster, a massive Constitutional Crisis with our splendid rejection of Brexit, and suffered another Constitutional Crisis upon ourselves when the Tories overtook Labour for second prize.

      What is wrong with us? We seem to be firing blanks when it comes to transforming a Constitutional Crisis into meaningful Constitutional reform and Independence. We can’t even agitate enough disruption to secure even probationary recognition of our status as a Nation to prevent us being ignored. We should take the fierce Lion Rampant off the Scottish Royal Standard and replace it with a Lion Timid and Docile and easily talked out of things. Rampant? You’re having a laugh. Don’t fly it as a flag, but use it as a doormat for people to walk over.

    278. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 3.00
      I’m not taking the Unionist Position Robert J,I’m explaining that Scotland will be outvoted is their position.
      It’s always been their position.
      And I agree that the Brexit vote has indeed highlighted big time that Scotland wants something different but that’s all it’s done.
      Wanting and getting are two different things.
      If we stay in the UK Union,Westminster will continue to claim their version of democracy as one person one vote and one MP one vote, why wouldn’t they?
      So yes I’m saying that in the UK Union a Scottish vote as A Scottish vote is meaningless.
      Even the Rev has shown many times that we always get the Government England votes for.
      And look at the reaction in 2015 when it looked like Scotland might be actuality be getting a say in Westminster!
      There is no fixing this even if Westminster accomadates Scotland, the Union still has this flaw and another issue will be along….
      There is no demanding Scotland is entitled to get what it voted for within this UK Union because there is no mechanism in Westminster for the Scottish Representatives to do so.
      And there’s not going to be.
      We have one option and it’s not demanding that Scotland gets to stay in the EU by the grace of Westminster.
      The problem is not that we are leaving the EU the problem is that we don’t get to choose.

      Defending Unionism…… pfftt tut ….. wash your mind out Sir … LOL

    279. yesindyref2 says:

      @Daisy Walker
      One thing I’d add is that maybe there need to be two types of punter-facing canvassers, and the first is a listener, a warmer, an empathiser, to open the mind, and then another after to close the deal. I’m better for instance as a warmer, and maybe every group of canvassers should have a couple, who make no attempt to try to get people to vote YES. Warmers are NOT in your face people.

    280. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 17:39:

      We have one option and it’s not demanding that Scotland gets to stay in the EU by the grace of Westminster.

      Actually, that seems a fair indication of agreement with Breeks, since he’s essentially saying the same thing.

      As I do also. All I’m adding is that such matters as the 2016 EURef are by no means irrelevant, since in revealing our current lack of real sovereignity to ourselves (if only we are willing to recognise it!), they provide hard evidence of the tectonic movement apart of Scottish and English polities.

      They count because they support the very case that we are (all) making. They might have no traction whatever with WM or UKGov, but in the end that’s irrelevant, because it’s our own opinions which matter. Once we as a people have a clear shared understanding of where we want to go, nothing will be able to stop us.

      All those no-remainers, for example, who are now having to find some way out of the constitutional corner they have painted themselves into, and who have been too often neglected, Phantom Power Films being one very honourable exception. These are the actual people who will win or lose us IR2, IMO. Together with the 200k-odd EU residents, whose futures are directly at stake.

      The end point being, as you say, that it should be down to us, the people of Scotland, and us alone, who should get to choose. About everything.

    281. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 3.27
      While I agree with you that it’s very frustrating to watch all this play out.
      I think we are just going to have to be a bit more patient.
      This is the set of circumstances that will break the Union, one way or another, of that I am sure.
      It’s not in my nature either to not take things head on but right now that’s not the route we are travelling.
      Roughly half of Scotland don’t want this Union and are standing fast on that position.
      We haven’t started to be awkward about it yet.
      Westminster have had centuries of practice in not going too far with Scotland to maintain the Union.
      But this time for all sorts of reasons the line that they have held has been pushed back to a level that they cannot accomadte.
      And that they cannot hide that they cannot accomadate Scotlands expectations, the flaw in the Treaty is entering the spotlight and this time we have a set of politicians who will make the Treaty go away if…
      we just ask….
      Why waste time and treasure on anything else right now other than getting the asking of it done?

    282. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 6.35
      I think that we are all pretty much on the same page here Robert J ,
      Although I must admit I’ve never thought that the Union was a “good deal “, for Scotland and why we ever tolerated it baffled me.
      But I always thought that this was very much a minority view and nothing would ever change it…
      Jist shows ye..eh…
      I was born into it (obviously) and it just “was”…
      Turns oot it was a lack of communication all that time… who knew…. but not anymore.
      There’s many routes to independence (as someone one said) let’s get to the end of this one first, and if we are not out of the Treaty by then…. we’ll.. we’ll see!

    283. Gordon McAuslane says:

      Melanie Onn (Labour) won the seat in Grimsby in 2015 with a majority of 2,565 (7.2%). Could this be a case of jerrymandering? Tories give Grimsby 1.3 million to bribe Youngs Seafoods to move to that constituency and persuade the constituents to vote Conservative. Just don’t buy that cheap rag The Scotsman. It should be called ‘The Englishman’.



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