A matter of priorities
Here’s the BBC News website quoting defence secretary Michael Fallon today, on the announcement of a £3.5 billion order for almost 600 new armoured vehicles:
Let’s study that for a moment, shall we?
Firstly, Ukraine is not even remotely on Britain’s “doorstep”. The distance from London to Kiev is about 1,500 miles. Nobody has suggested for a moment that either Ukraine or Russia poses a military threat to the UK.
Secondly, 600 is a hell of a LOT of armoured vehicles. Indeed, the article notes that it’s the Army’s biggest such order in 30 years. What possible pressing need does the UK have for SIX HUNDRED state-of-the-art armoured vehicles at almost £6m a pop when the country is knee-deep in foodbanks?
Perhaps the Prime Minister can shed some light.
Wait, what? “Keeping Britain safe”? What imminent danger do we face to which this is the solution? Are we going to put them on the streets to deter terrorists? Terrorists don’t engage in armed combat, they either covertly leave bombs in concealed locations or they blow themselves up. Neither of those acts is affected in any way by the presence of an armoured vehicle.
And “nearly 1300 jobs” is plainly a gigantically terrible reason to spend £3.5bn. That’s £2.7 million per job. We’re reasonably sure that there are far more efficient means of generating work with £3.5bn. It’s enough to pay 1300 unemployed people roughly the national average salary each – a very respectable £26,000 – for 104 years.
(Or alternatively, to pay them the national average salary for their entire working life, and also buy them each a house and a Bugatti Veyron for the daily commute.)
You only need 600 armoured vehicles if you’re anticipating, or actually in, a full-scale war. Is there something Mr Fallon and Mr Cameron aren’t telling us?
———————————————————————————————————–
Perhaps the clue is in where they will be built. If (when) Scotland votes Yes, ConDems will need to start working on Wales pretty damn quickly.
The problem is that the UK has an attitude problem.
It’s a country with too big an ego. It spends the household budget on trying to impress/intimidate friends and neighbours with its big new 4×4, rather than loooking after the family.
I minute ago I posted on the previous thread:
“The British patriot card is about to be waved in our face.”
Bingo!
I have been saying for a while now that the UK government have been preparing the country for more armed combats, my first thoughts were back into Iraq which is still probable but with the purchase of these vehicles it is more likely they are anticipating a campaign in Europe and the likely “enemy” is Russia.
What point is there is creating a new arms race that will only end with armageddon?
Increased propoganda on terror threat, building new tanks. Iraq 2?
If we are anticipating the use of 600 armoured vehicles i would suggest we all just stay in bed because we’re all done for.
Lets spend our share of 3.5 billion on an end of the world party!
Oh, come on – getting paranoid now? It isn’t as if WM has any record of ever concocting excuses to invade anyone ion order to secure resources is it? And where are they going to find a vulnerable oil rich nation that could be easily invaded with armored vehicles rather than tanks …oh wait … yes, that could be disturbing right enough
Aye, Ruth was in full ‘SPORT R TROOPZ’ mode last night.
Expect more of this drivel now we’re on the home straight.
Apparently killing thousands of innocent people in these last couple of decades is a selling point for the Union….
Do they have water cannon capability?
£3.5bn roughly the extra that we put into the London coffers
” if we choose to prioritise social welfare spending when the threats are on our doorstep.”
So its “guns before butter”?
to Joe King-
ONCE AGAIN IT IS ABOUT – JOBS.
We don`t need a lariat to control Scotland`s Ancient Borders but JOBS that were held by Scots at UK Borders Agency HQ in Stranraer – are now in Belfast.
Don`t be so bloody obtuse.
Scotland`s share of this new contract for 600 armoured vehicles is approx £350 million – to secure 1,300 Jobs outwith Scotland – in Wales, largely.
Once again Scots pay tax to mug ourselves.
It’s a government defence contract, so you can reliably foresee that it will cost four times as much and deliver half of what was promised, and that half won’t work properly for the next ten years.
The problem in Ukraine were caused by Merkel refusing a loan. Now the problems cost more than the loan. The Oligarth (greed) who caused the Ukrainian problems is now the President.
11WW 26 million Russians died. (1 in 4). The most vile SS units were Ukrainian.
Emige Russian Nazis now hold the balance of power in Israel, and are responsible for major abuse. Israel should have been sanctioned years ago. The King of SA should be arrested for terrorist threats and abuses. SA should be sanctioned.
They will be used for future riots when the next austerity cuts kick in south of the border, cuts which will be a lot worse when their Bank of North Sea Oil account is terminated.
The evidence afforded by recent history suggests that the way to reverse political unpopularity in UK is to start a war.
Worked for Thatcher and Blair.
Bairns not bombs
Preparing for an invasive assault on isis.
From yesterdays Guardian comments:
ClareLondon And – quality of life? Independence? Self-reliance? Autonomy?
I tell you what I discovered many years ago in my own life.
There is absolutely nothing more powerful, more liberating or more psychologically enhancing than independence.
Nothing.
We’re going to war folk’s buckle up. Either that or they’ll be deplyed on our own street’s for riot control when London goes tonto again. Either way let’s get rid of this mob.
Fur Coat
New post, please share
Project: What The F**k? | todayinscotland
https://todayinscotland.wordpress.com/project-what-the-fk/
I hope those armoured vehicles will be egg-proof.
Let me see:
They will use them to invade Scotland like Russia invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968.
They will use them to patrol the border with Scotland after independence.
The toffs will use them on their estates.
They will use them to coordinate fracking in all the national parks.
Or they are punching above their weight.
Probably the last one.
We get it, you hate the Conservatives. How would you be pitching the referendum battle if Labour was in power?
If all this spending is going to happen, why have the MoD delayed their yearly announcement till after the Referendum?
And what use are armoured vehicles against alien invasion?
Has David Cameron seen Independence Day or War of the Worlds?
It’ll be one helluva job getting them on and off the new aircraft carriers.
O/T but something that all Scots should read. Looks like our oil reserves will not be depleted by 2017 after all!
http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1039/scottish-west-coast-untapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/
“These new vehicles are testament to the world-class engineering skills in south Wales and across the UK, helping to create the Army’s first fully digitalised armoured vehicles,’ he said.”
“Digitalised armoured vehicles” – so they’re going to digitalise them, send them down the interweb and attack the Russians that way? A bit like Tron then.
Now we know the reason for the terror alert upgrading last week. Politicians reminding us of the ‘fear factor’ and ‘imminent threat’ we all face.
Reinforce the fear then push through a massive defence spend on new toys.
This is all that Westminster politicians have to offer us. These vehicles have more chance on being deployed on the streets of the UK against austerity protesters than in a foreign battlefield.
First you civil liberties are removed with the ‘anti-social behaviour bill’ that removes all rights to meet and protest, now new military vehicles to keep you in check.
When the people of the UK finally wake up and realise that austerity has failed, the debt is not being reduced and our whole political system has failed, there will be real anger. Then we will see the real reason for these draconian measures.
Ask yourselves, just who is the real enemy ?
I’m struggling to think of any scenario where this order makes sense.
Westminster will be planning to pay for it using revenues from Scotland’s Oil after they succeed in fooling the people of Scotland into voting NO.
This is probably the big secret that Westminster is hiding from Scotland – see http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1039/scottish-west-coast-untapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/
Quote
“Scotland could be sitting on more than double the amount of oil and gas reserves currently predicted, a new independent industry investigation has found. The investigation reveals that the scale of Scotland’s untapped frontier West Coast or Atlantic Margin has been underestimated.
The investigation was undertaken by oilandgaspeople.com, the world’s largest oil and gas industry jobs board, and independent North Sea oil and gas industry experts. The investigation included interviews with industry experts and collated seismic and expert evidence from a range of independent sources such as the British Geological Survey, DECC, oil and gas companies, the Institute of Petroleum Engineering and the Energy Institute.
The findings show that the current predictions of extensive untapped reserves of oil and gas could be underestimated by 100%. The West Coast alone could provide oil and gas for at least 100 years with an estimated value of more than £1 trillion.
Yet the area – off the west coast of Scotland and Outer Hebrides and Shetland –has remained largely untapped due to deep waters and difficult geological conditions.
This is despite strong geological evidence for oil and gas reserves, including that the major basins in the area are filled with thick sedimentary successions – which helps produce and then reservoir oil and gas. These geological conditions support the formation of gigantic, or ‘supermassive’ oil reserves.
But the investigation found that oil exploration, discoveries and production in the area are set to dramatically increase over the next ten years as continual improvements in drilling technology, rig design and seismic surveying makes the area more accessible. This activity is supported by the Bank of Scotland’s recent report predicting the need for 37,000 new jobs over the next two years in support of the current Scottish oil boom. As a result, the investigation found that the most recent round of DECC licensing for exploration has seen an increase in oil majors, such as BP, Chevron, Statoil, Total, and Shell, begin prospecting.
The investigation also found over the next 10 years upwards of one million barrels a day could be pumped from the Atlantic Margins if more than £1.5 billion is invested to extract it.”
A quiet word of caution. If the unionists choose to take this argument beyond the vacuous jingoism of the Mail/Express et al then they will probably cite Munich 1938 and accuse us of being naive/weak in the face of predatory dictators.
My approach is going to be to carefully contrast the potential uses of such a mass of armoured vehicles with the balanced and appropriate defence planned for an independent Scotland which is expressed briefly in the White Paper and in more depth in the consultation document “Securing the Nation”.
We will need defence but the point is DEFENCE – not kit enabling the UK to, yet again, be the fifth wheel of the American, imperialist war wagon !
What was ruth Davidson on about last night and the thinly-veiled patriotic card, what pants! – true comment about patriotism previously. expect more of the same. what planet are these people on?
On last nights Indy show,
the one about ‘must keep Trident for the sake of the jobs’
was raised yet again
and so we raise yet again
the one about ‘keeping Auschwitz going for the sake of the jobs’.
Ruth Davidson – 4th in the constituency votes but then given a seat under the List system and is now telling the country we must remain chained to Westminster.
Tine for a change to the voting system for Holyrood.
600 armed vehicle border protection force?
It is puzzling just how out of touch our political class actually are. This is not just a problem for Scotland: millions marched to oppose the war in Iraq all over the UK. I do not see where they get the impression that this warmongering is popular and likely to win votes or support.
Certainly there appears to be a sustained propaganda campaign to soften public opinion in favour of war. That is no surprise. When laissez faire capitalists trash the economy (as they inevitably do when in the ascendancy) their only recourse is the potlatch which is large scale war. The people will accept austerity in time of war and the economy benefits from the destruction of goods and assets which then need to be replaced. We have seen it before and I honestly believe that is the game plan now. And that kind of propaganda works, or at least it always has in the past. This is my big fear, and has been for a long time.
Nonetheless it seems to me that the majority of people so far do not support the drift to war which is their sole strategy. They are not convinced that conventional weapons are effective against terrorism and they are not convinced that opening a front against russia is a good idea. Nato’s behaviour over the baltic and ukraine is hardly evidence of responsible realpolitik: it is rather the kind of bone headed stupidity which led to the first world war.
If there is anything which demonstrates the contempt for democracy better than this easy assumption that the people can always be impoverished with their consent if you take them to war I have not yet seen it.
Time and again it is obvious that the powers that be have swallowed their own narrative that they are the “leaders” and the population will respect and follow them so long as the bullshit is properly presented. The idea that we might think for ourselves is not one they can admit: and is something they would oppose if they could think the unthinkable. These people are not democrats in any meaningful sense at all. They do not accept a role as representatives of those who elect them and they have no respect at all for anyone who is not part of their magic circle.
The only way to retain any choice about our position in the event of large scale war is with independence. That is no guarantee of peace or neutrality and who knows how the situation will be manipulated in that event? But we will have a choice and we will not be a first strike target if trident goes. We are at present and the danger is not as remote as it once was.
Another thought – are these not just a replacement for the Warrior IFV/APC of which 1000+ have been built since 1988 (according to wiki)?
What this tells me is that aging kit (Warrior) is being replaced with the very similar (in appearance) Scout, but they’re only going to build 600 instead of the 1000 that were built previously.
So, it may well be that it’s business as usual, except there’ll be less of it, and the replacement that they would need anyway is being announced as some great big boost to Wales.
1914 anyone?
Just a thought, now they know that Yes is likely (and have prepared for the eventuality) are they getting the money from having to scrap Trident?
The 600 vehicles will be used across the world not just in Britain. You are correct though its a waste of money.
Better Together is it ?
Britain has a wealth gap twice as wide as any other EU country.
Britain is the fourth most unequal developed society.
Where over half of the 13 million people in poverty have a job
Britain is the country with the second lowest pay among advanced economies.
Britain has the eighth biggest gap between men and women’s pay in Europe.
Since 2010 British wages have fallen faster than all but three other EU countries.
Britain has the greatest regional inequality in Europe.
We work the third longest hours in the EU.
and food bank usage has risen “20 fold”
With Cameron’s Welfare reforms sentencing another 5 million children to a life of poverty.
Britain’s productivity is 16 percent behind the average of advanced economies.
Britain has the worst record on industrial production of advanced economies.
Intelligence of any level does NOT support a NO vote.
They’re not for foreign battlefield action. When’s the last time the UK saw armoured cars on its city streets? Belfast.
TeamGB elite is doing what every elite has always done when change comes, arming itself. They didn’t shoot anyone in the last last riots because they didn’t want to be shot at.
Paranoia is just the half of it.
I may need to re-adjust my tinfoil hat after this post. But, in a similar vein to the question posed above, why would the UK need such equipment unless commanders and strategists are anticipating a major war?
Well, one thing comes to mind, how about crushing any uppity notions the great unwashed might have about ending their serfdom?
I was rather alarmed, although perhaps not entirely surprised, to see the police in the USA rolling around in military vehicles of all shapes and sizes, including tracked vehicles, some still sandy from Iraq (the ones that didn’t end up with ISIS).
There is no great difference between the establishment in the UK or elsewhere, they are all about protecting the capital from the people. The difference elsewhere, I suppose, is that when they form a Praetorian Guard in places like the USA it is that much more obvious.
Faced with another financial crisis these vehicles may well be to the benefit to the monied classes rather than of any use in a distant theatre of war.
You’ll remember that the British Government has form here, also. Not recently, but they have form and I doubt their playbook has been radically altered since the days of massacring mill workers.
And then there’s this mince.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/03/scottish-republicans-orange-order-parade-yes-campaign
600 armoured vehicles
talking about tearing up £50 notes in a shower
@MajorBloodnok
The Warriors are being upgraded (at significant cost) not replaced.
Even stranger, the Army 2020 structure review calls for only 3 Squadrons of 16 of these scout vehicles (48 total). Allowing for spares and training vehicles, what are the other 500+ for?
Announcing an order for IFV/APC vehicles like this tells us that the MOD anticipates continuing interventions in the middle east, where the Warrior has proved useful for protecting the troops whilst pretending to keep the natives docile.
If it was for an all out ground war with the Russians they’d probably be ordering attack helicopters and main battle tanks (MBT) instead.
Q. Separate Westminster from Scotland’s oil
and what have you got ?
A. A very, very disturbed bunch of global Stockmarkets
General Dynamics is an American company with its directors having close links to right-wing politicians in both the US and the UK.
600 armoured vehicles, £3.5 billion contract. While the money if being divided up between share-holders, directors, lobbyists and politicians most these vehicles will be held in cold storage simply rusting away.
ianbeag says:
3 September, 2014 at 9:21 am
O/T but something that all Scots should read. Looks like our oil reserves will not be depleted by 2017 after all!
http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1039/scottish-west-coast-untapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/
Unfortunately, the MSM won’t touch it with a barge pole, at least not before September 18th. By the time most people hear about it, it will be too late. Jim Murphy’s heroic return with a clean white shirt is deemed far more newsworthy.
@Rooster
Interesting that they are upgrading the Warriors also. It still holds though that these are not for all out war with the Russkies but anticipate expanded involvement in the middle east and elsewhere.
We were in Las Vegas, in the mid 90’s first time and the Vegas cops had armoured cars back then. We watched one roll up to the door of a hotel on the strip after a stick up and it bristled with guns, very big machine guns. Extremes of wealth have to be protected.
If Scotland pays £350 million for those, then it will have 60 of the units.
The “Threats on our doorstep” aren’t referring to Ukraine 😉
And here’s Craig Murray:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/after-project-fear-expect-project-terror/
10/20/50% cut to the Tory Party members. The Tory Bankers. Total abuse of power. Guttons for punishment.
This is a belter.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jean-muir/scottish-referendum_b_5750854.html
Camz
Do you thing 60 is enough to control OO marches 🙂
Think you should all have a look at this
Apparently they have underestimated the amount of Oil and Gas in Scotland’s Atlantic margin. Spread the word!
http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1039/scottish-west-coast-untapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/
Thankfully we’ve had all those years of austerity or else they would only have been able to order 500….
There are 59 Scottish MPs at Wesminister…. 650 MPs total – after independence thats 591. Clearly 600 state of the art armoured vehicles means 1 for each MP left in rUK and 1 each for the Queen and the first 8 in line to the throne.
As a reminder BEFORE the Orange Order March in Embra on Sept13th, this is what they are marching for – to retain JOBS for Ulster and Belfast :-
UK Border Agency HQ Shifted from Stranraer – to Belfast.
Clyde Coastguard HQ – Belfast.
Passport Processing for Scots – Belfast.
Building a new RAF Base in Ulster using Scots taxes before Closing RAF LEUCHARS in DEC 2014 – THIS YEAR.
The oldest Scottish Regiment in the British Army will be permanently based – in Ulster.
How many JOBS that man and maintain all these bases are in Ulster – Robbed from Scotland.
How many thousands of Jobs are being Excluded from our Unemployed in Scotland.
Meanwhile the two British Army Bases and the RAF Base on the EU Nation State of Cyprus – 120 miles from Syria – is not suffering ANY CUTS WHILST EMPLOYING MORE THAN 8,000 Civilian Cypriots. FFS.
Guess where the British Military Hardware is going.?
‘You only need 600 armoured vehicles if you’re anticipating, or actually in, a full-scale war.’
Not really. If you do some homework you will see that the British Army is pretty thrifty, and is still using re-built armoured personnel carriers made in the 1960’s, the FV432s. So an order that is the biggest for thirty years is not an outrageous extravagance. Giving the men and women of the British armed services the most modern protection seems a reasonable priority to me.
Of course, an independent Scotland won’t get involved in Britain’s imperial wars, so why worry?
Remember this contract with the American company General Dynamics cost 500 BAE workers their jobs.
Have the MOD not just got rid of 27000 people in the services, and are planning new cuts, so the question is who drives them, or is everyone of the Lords and Ladys in the House of Loreds to get one to prevent Egg Throwers (just in case the Eggs are hard boiled)
Could it be a mixture of pork barrel politics (compromise Wales) and corporate welfare? Who is getting the contract?
Let’s make this the last WM spree we finance.
WantonWampum asks, ‘Guess where the British Military Hardware is going.?’
At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious it won’t be going to independent Scotland.
Do you think they may need some of the 600 for this?
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL5N0QZ5KE20140829?irpc=932
That would put the UK troop contribution around 2-3k…
O/T
BT recycling old junk on their social media outlets today.
A Sun headline from two years ago (!) regarding EU membership.
Their desperation is utterly laughable. They’ve lost the argument, now we MUST ensure they lose the vote.
1964 and the War Office changed it’s name to the Ministry of Defence. UK defence? There was something more honest about the old name!
iScotland will have actual defence forces. UK has force projection capabilities, the capability for aggression basically.
Vote Yes for one small step towards a better world.
I wonder if Reporting Scotland and their media lackeys will be giving wall to wall coverage of the latest report claiming that ,“Scotland could be sitting on more than double the amount of oil and gas reserves currently predicted”.
This kind of makes a mockery of the BBC wheeling out Sir Ian Wood the other week and getting him to tell the masses that there is practically no oil left.
It is shameful that our media spreads lies and disinformation for their own gain.
Given this stunning new report regarding Scotland’s oil reserves;
http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1039/scottish-west-coast-untapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/
We need ALL SNP people, YES people and other YES campaigners to stop talking about ‘North Sea oil’. This is the con trick by Westminster, since these new untapped massive reserves are NOT in the North sea. Journalists who question North sea reserves in interview, need to be corrected, on the potential Scottish West coast reserves.
The West coast is where the REAL oil potential lies. It is not the North sea.
Let’s just start calling it all Scotland’s oil reserves – a phrase Westminster will need to get used to anyway, after Sept 18th.
Major Bloodnok – As ‘Baldrick’ would say, they have a cunning plan. Nose to tail I don’t think 600 would stretch along the border, might need a few more, LOL. All in all another waste of money and we still don’t have a single maritime patrol aircraft.
Auld Rock
Andalucix @ 0931 says, ‘You’ll remember that the British Government has form here, also. Not recently, but they have form and I doubt their playbook has been radically altered since the days of massacring mill workers.’
Seen the youtube of Thatcher personally machine-gunning the miners?
It’s god awful, folk & bairns are suffering fae malnutrition and they’re spending billions on this stuff. Unbelievable
How many of the current issue AV are used at any one time by the MOD.
Are we going to sell a number to other rogue states (i mean countries) to possibly be used against us at a future date? (some to Isreal. Some to Assad now we’ve decided we’re on his side?)
In the event of a narrow No vote, 9 months down the line the No voters will have realised they have been had, there will be civil disturbances, whilst the YES voters stay at home and in unison state “we told you so” the No voters will have to be subdued, that’s why they are planning on building 300 armoured vehicles !!!
When Scotland leaves and austerity/reality sets in, then it’s circa 600 MPs left dripping with fear. They’ll need bigger cars or maybe…..?? 😉
Nice picture from BBC on run-up to NATO summit at the Celtic Manor in Wales and all the hardware on display. Glittering commercial opportunities ahead.
“First Minister Carwyn Jones said the summit represented an opportunity for Wales’ defence-related industries.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29009310
Don’t forget the UK is one of the world’s biggest arms dealers. As everyone above has made it clear, we couldn’t even staff these vehicles.
Clearly the surplus will be huge and guess who they’ll be sold to ? Yes, those states that make Syria, Israel etc their proxies; and possibly to India and Pakistan !
The 600 replacement vehicles, as the Major points out, is a downsizing of the Army. While a boost to Wales it isn’t going to have much bearing on the independence debate. If we want armoured vehicles we can either build or buy the things ourselves.
The whole Putin is going to invade thing is utter nonsense. I thought Ruth was on the magic mushrooms or something when she resurrected that particular bogeyman.
It is distinctly possible the first place they’ll be deployed is on the streets of Glasgow.
I see the UK government have failed to point out that the tanks will be built by an American company, General Dynamics (of F-16 fame). They may be assembled in Wales keeping 1300 people in jobs but the profit from the contract will head to the States.
The order will be completed by 2020, also the year when the first of the new carriers will be fully operational (second carrier by 2022). Expect the UK to be involved in a major war (Iran?) between 2020-25, escalation period 2018-19, just like Iraq, they’re planning to take the oil.
They would be better investing in electric cars. 5 times cheaper to run.
Glasgow City Council has been losing voter registration forms. Deliberate or poor administration.
Awe Rev, kin ah hiv wan o they Bugatti Vey ron, ah wuld be singing Doo Ron Ron allday long.
Andalucix says:
Yes in the US, police are increasingly using military grade weapons for minor problems. They have also already purchased billions of rounds of hollow point ( dum dum ) bullets. Designed for max kill potential.
They are preparing for mass discontent in their population, and are going to crush it at any cost.
As far as these vehicles are concerned, they are more serious control vehicles than serious open warfare vehicles. All this could mean, that like the US, they expect domestic chaos UK wide. We need out, and it has to be now.
@HandandShrimp
I think what happened with Ruth was she started by making the point that nuclear weapons can be a deterent and tried to give the example of Ukraine as an example of a country which gave up its nukes unilaterally. I guess she was going to suggest that Putin wouldn’t be so aggressive if they still had them. However … Quickly she realised it was an awful point to bring up and fudged it.
I think what she came out with wasn’t quite what she started out to say. Not that what she started out to say was much better!
This being the MoD there will be three deployed to patrol that new border they will have (until one hits a carelessly placed cairn writing it off) and the other 597 will be kept in a shed for spare parts to keep the three going.
Why do we need 600 armoured cars? We still have nukes to defend us from the Russians and/or the Ukranians and/or ISIS! But we will only have these nukes if we vote NO.
Just as well I’m voting YES.
Ken500 says:
Glasgow, registration forms being lost. Incompetence suits the Council Agenda very well, so they are likely to have their fingers in it.
“We get it, you hate the Conservatives. How would you be pitching the referendum battle if Labour was in power?”
There’s no difference.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-wrong-lizards/
I understand that Cameron is still itching for a fight, especially after he was knocked back on the Syria front (and made to look a right chump in front of his American masters).
However, what are these armoured vehicles for? Certainly not for direct invasion. Patrolling an invaded country? Perhaps, but maybe we should look closer to home. They could easily be deployed, for example, to protect “assets” in the UK and control rioting in the streets. Perhaps they are expecting trouble.
Quite worrying.
No,they think they are applying all sorts of pressure( oh look,war = jobs for Wales,no contracts for foreigners,british is bigger and better.big sounding numbers stuff like that)to hide what is actually happening.
They are splurging on the joint credit card before independence,adding costs and needless expense. Doesn’t anyone ask why they are so expensive?
Clout. Broad shoulders. Punch above weight. Important. World stage. Clout. Important. World stage. Important.
This reminds us of the fracking contracts. Most of the shareholders in fracking companies have links to the Tory Party. The “old pals” act.
You will probably find that the major backers of this armoured vehicle contract are in some way linked to the Tory Party.
And defence contract really are an open cheque book. Money is no problem. Make as many mistakes as you like because the government will keep on paying the bill, no problem.
O/T for one moment.
Following the good YouGov poll and excitement of the last week there’s been a small flurry of articles yesterday in the german newspapers about the referendum.
It seems that they’re starting to understand, something potentially game-changeing is happening. Questions are being raised as to why the Scots are positive compared to the lack of cohesive arguments from WM.
The world is starting to take notice. 🙂
@Ken 500 where did that piece of information come from on the Postal voting forms.
600 “armoured vehicles” (not Battle Tanks mind you) won’t go very far in Russia – any Army Corps at most.
Anyway Putin’s just pulled the rug from under their Russian Baiting feet by forcing the War Criminals in Kiev to a Ceasefire!
Capella,
There is something vaguely amusing about a picture of a steel fence protecting an ancient stone castle.
Meanwhile over at NATO
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-scots-welcome-in-nato-1-3529122
although the scotsman tries to distract our attention with the implication that we are thinking about blowing up post boxes this week.
Bias Bbc 2 Andrew Neil AGAIN to much bother this independence negociations Oh lets not Bother then,bbc pushing repeat after repeat on negativity.
Does anyone think it coincidence that the five permanent members of the UN security council also happen to be the 5 largest arms exporters in the world?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry
No wonder the rUK is terrified of getting kicked off the top table – arms sales will surely go down without the prestige and contacts that UNSC membership enables.
Seriously WTF are we going to do with all that armour?
People starving and they’re trying to convince us its better to make armour than mend a broken society?
FFS.
Folk phoning up or checking to find their voting registration application has gone astray.sent in but not on the system. Could be a backlog? Or deliberate.
Slightly OT, but Jean Muir spells out again why we shouldn’t be tied to these warmongers.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jean-muir/scottish-referendum_b_5750854.html?
What we need to look out for is the speed of these new vehicles.
One of the things about ISIS is the speed that they are able to move around at in their converted trucks, and also the fact that it’s difficult to target commercial vehicles from the air without hitting a lot of civilians.
So it might be that behind the scenes the powers that be in UK/USA have concluded that thy need to start preparing for another invasion in the Middle East to take on the growing ISIS forces.
Lets get away from this madness!
Douglas Alexander has previously disenfranchised voters.
Someone should be asking the UK government where all the money is coming from, since it is a prerequisite question in every independence debate for the Scottish Government.
Not only the armoured vehicles, but HS2, the rehashing of the London Airports in one form or another and all the other spends the UK government is planning. Then of course there is a huge debt to be paid off. Perhaps they are anticipating that the total quantity of Scottish oil left is far more than they like to admit publicly and they will continue to exploit.
caz-m 2 10.20 says, ‘And defence contract really are an open cheque book.’
Wrong. There are specific performance targets and penalty clauses when targets are not met.
So the country can’t possibly afford disabled people having a spare room for their equipment, but has plenty money for trucks that will sit and rust in a carpark. We are constantly reminded we have the 4th largest and most professional armed forces in the world, yet we are constantly “under threat”?
C’mon Scotland lets get a Yes in 2 weeks and ditch this lying, corrupt, immoral scum for good!
1/8 Scotland mentioned more than 8 times PMQs
guy in pub said to me last night,forget about the campaign,sometimes you know its time for change,and nothing said can stop it.
By the way it should be mentioned that the RAF have been stealthily replacing all of their fleet of airliners recently (again the biggest order since the 1970s) in this time of austerity it seems that the only people who didn’t get the memo was the Defence department. That union dividend ehh?
Does iScotland need 60 new, state-of-the-art, armoured vehicles?
If not, during negotiations, we can trade that little asset for something more useful.
Folk phoning up or checking to find their voting registration application has gone astray.sent in but not on the system. Could be a backlog? Or deliberate.
We need to keep a close eye on this.
O/T Ronnie Anderson
We should turn next Sunday at BBC Scotland into a final farewell party to the BBC in Scotland.
I have wrote the words to a new song that we should all sing to our BBC friends inside Pacific Quay.
The words are not that difficult to learn,
“CHEERIO CHEERIO CHEERIO, CHEERIO CHEERIO CHEERIO”
and repeat as many times as you like.
@Midgehunter
Agree. Foreign media have latched on to the WM negativity versus Scots positive outlook.
Not surprising, it sums up the whole raison d’être of our quest.
Parallels with America perhaps…
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jun/24/military-us-police-swat-teams-raids-aclu
The USA has been militarising its police force for years.
@Cag-does-thinking
I think they’re chartering a lot now as the Tristars they were using were getting a bit ropey. I was a on flight to Ascension a few years ago (don’t ask) and it was like a proper charter flight with Iron Man 2 on the video screens and highly camp stewards making inappropriate eye contact with all those butch squaddies.
But Tony Blair has just one a Philanthropist of the year award, so wars do have there many perks for politicians, so all worth it then:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/gq-men-of-the-year-awards-tony-blair-named-philanthropist-of-the-year-9707703.html
£5.8M each. Seems a tad expensive.
won not “one”, doh!
A sparky bright lot on the YES side in last night’s debate and a doom laden NO side. Maybe it’s just me?
I thought Pomposeby gave far too much time to Dougie Alexander and made sure he cut off the discussion at the appropriate time to avoid giving the opportunity to the YES side to counter his arguments. Also, it took a while to get off the ground (i.e. become interesting). Lack of the usual animation of the audience.
Then of course there was the STV, self-congratulatory wine and beer binge at the end. Nauseating!
@Kev
And Henry Kissinger won the Noble Peace Prize in 1973 (beyond satire, that).
Scotland would not have the same Imperial security needs as rUK, nor will they have the same offensive foreign policies and enemies.
@MajorBloodnock
I suspect that instead of robust mechanically linked steering devices these vehicles will be steered by touchscreen. Nothing can possibly go wrong there.
More seriously I suspect it relates to things like vision, targeting and threat detection. In some respects digital systems are more robust than analogue systems with better error correction. On the other hand it just provides different modes of attack by an enemy. Also electronics are just as vulnerable as metal plating to a shaped charge IED.
@Muscleguy
I still like my Tron theory.
Bluedog
“There are specific performance targets and penalty clauses when targets are not met.”
I have worked on defence contracts in Portsmouth, Govan and Barrow in Furness. The amount of cover-ups that happen between Government and the contractors is unbelievable.
They would rather keep any major mistakes/f**k ups quite, rather than going public with it.
Contractors also charge the Government extortionate prices for basic materials and parts.
As I said, it’s an open cheque book.
” In some respects digital systems are more robust than analogue systems”
Electromagnet pulses aside. Nukes and all. Just saying.
I also wonder how the MoD proposes to get all these armoured vehicles from an island to the war zone. I suppose they could now put them on a train through the channel tunnel but then back in the day they could put rail wagons on ferries so we are not much further forward. I’m not aware that the UK has anything like enough heavy lifting aircraft to transport these in any great numbers. I presume our American friends will be expected to help. Or maybe we can ask nice Uncle Vlad for the loan of some Antonovs?
simples ! Thank you Wales for telling Scotland we are better together this will keep your media happy for a very long time
I am also sure that mid cold war UK forces in Germany totalled less than 240 armoured vehicles So six hundred is a hell of alot#
Major
The 1970s were strange.
@galamcennnalath
Analogue systems are just as vulnerable there. Lots of copper coils, the EMP induces big voltages and currents in these and BANG! Melted solder at the very least, possibly melted copper as well depending on proximity and power of the EMP.
Digital systems being more compact are somewhat easier to harden.
Cameron and his Westminster cabal shifting the focus to defence and foreign affairs in attempt to shore up the “unionist vote “(“dangerous world” etc./therefore “better together”) .Expect a further “ramping up” on this ,as “D DAY” approaches
Has anyone else seen this?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/298664/Poll-Now-51-back-independence
A No voting colleague alerted me to this.
600 armoured vehicles. After all the cuts where are they going to find enough squaddies to man them?
The Royal Armoured Corp has suffered the worse of the cuts. The Scots Greys (Scotland’s last remaining armored regiment) have had their tanks taken off them.
Damn “Armoured” 🙁
But lets not forget what Westminster would gain back in corporate taxes and emplyee taxes
B.Bomb –
Check the date of the article !
We could have an armoured car for every food bank in the event of a No vote.
It may seem a bit mental on the face of it, given that the structure of the army in 2020 would seem to indicate a need for 3 * 3 * 16 of these (144).
It made me wonder why the UK was gearing up for war, but it actually looks like NATO are the ones gearing up for war.
NATO countries are requested to aspire to spend 2% GDP on defence. There are only a couple of countries that do. Guess what? We’re one of them, along with the US, Estonia and Greece; Others try (France and Turkey); Others don’t even bother (Canada and Germany).
It is spread over the next ten years too.
Apart from the cost of 600 vehicles, there will be a large (very large) spares inventory to maintain and what about all those parking spaces?
Coupla points.
The O/O march on 13th Sept I noted how many YES events are taking place in Edinburgh the same day.
When I read above about Scottish republican groups being asked not to attend the O/O march.
I had the thought are we being softened up for trouble, the trouble being orchestrated by ”Agents Provocateur”. In fact I expect it to happen.
About the vehicles. There is these flashpoints all over the world now. In 1982 Thatchers Gov in trouble goes to war over Falklands. Hestletine on Question time 3 years ago admitted that Thatcher had come to an ”arrangement” with Argentinian President Galtieri. When senior tories found out she was forced into a u-turn.
Before I go on. As I was typing I was listening to BBC News.
OBAMA was rattling the sabre over the beheading on the Americans. UK Gov at COBRA meetings, Cameron chairing the meeting.
My reading of this is that its largely about being a blowhard towards Europe, and at the same time talk a lot of bollocks about our special relationship with the US.
The US are already concerned that the UK is wasting its time with Trident and can’t really afford to be an effective partner with the US. So out comes a program announced in 2012 to give us a program that cost as much as the US stryker system. This is about the UK showing it can still cut the mustard and afford trident. Its also about Cameron trying to show off to European leaders. The phrase “showing leadership with nato” is very key here.
It’s less to do with the referendum, more to do with political Viagra for the UK government.
The issue is that it is very ambitious and isn’t expected to see active service until 2020. It’s also largely outdated. The US are very skittish about Stryker and are reluctant to deploy it – stryker battalions tend to get deployed with the MRAP, essentially a large armoured truck designed to survive IEDs. The US increasingly rely on drone technology for reconnaissance missions.
To end on Ruth Davidsons comment last night, Its about being seen to stand tall. Trouble is, everyone in Europe knows we can’t really afford it. And old mutton trying to pass itself off as spring lamb is just embarrassing.
@donald anderson
Armoured foodbanks – are they expecting social breakdown in the rUK something like Mad Max, after we leave?
Further to my post above.
My opinion is that airstikes will happen against ISIS. Terrorist threat heightened last week, after airstrikes more likely more young muslims will become radicalised and the vehicles are for any action in the middle east but also to be used in this country with coordinated action in muslim communities.
I hate the idea I have outlined above and I hate the fact I am thinking it.
We must get independence. I was down the Falklands in 1982, I don’t want our service men and women being sent to wars anymore.
@B.Bomb
(Pssst, that article was from January 2012…)
MajorBloodnok says:
3 September, 2014 at 11:15 am
@donald anderson
Armoured foodbanks – are they expecting social breakdown in the rUK something like Mad Max, after we leave?
============================
In Liverpool over the weekend. The people down there do not care a monkeys about here. The only people who care are the politicians and establishment who know how much Scotland gives them. The ordinary man and women in the street have been fed so many lies that they would be glad to get shot of us. The exception being those who are connected to Scotland through family plus a few people who genuinely like Scotland.
Perhaps they are to patrol the border to keep us furriners out 🙂
Lord West on BBC news now talking about it is okay to put troops in.
Are we being softened up?
Our forces are so depleted how could we mount a military campaign nowadays?
Hewitt83 says:
3 September, 2014 at 9:08 am
Spot on – Ruthie was the warm up act for the dangerous Russians.
They are going for the DEfence card now. We are not in NATO and all alone in this dangerous World.
David Agnew,
“showing leadership with nato”
Might do better by actually contributing to the marine patrol groups, as per agreement, which they have failed to do for years.
Apologies for going OT, was at Jim Murphys press conference yesterday in Edinburgh. I’ve never seen anything like it, we arrived at 10.50 to find a huge crowd already there waving their no placards. They were obviously told to meet earlier than the 11 o’clock that I’d found out was the starting time. Anyway there was one guy that shouted out on our side and all the press ran over to him, it was ridiculous! the presence of 8 police was over the top aswell. There was literally no point in what he did yesterday, as all the bussed in no’s were already on his side. It is just frustrating all the fake hysteria around him at the moment.
The MoD could probably have bought 600 ‘MOWAG’ APC/AFV’s for a third of that price – and like the Canadians and others, built them under license in the UK.
The MOWAG is the market leader – the US Marines, Canadians, NZ, Australian, and dozens of other militaries are using them in increasing numbers.
It’s also wheeled (6, 8, or 10), meaning it doesn’t have to be transported on equally expensive low-loaders, and is multi-role/multi-purpose.
This may be of interest.
http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/VeteransForIndependence
I am the speaker in the black shirt clutching a Wee Blue Book! 🙂
warmongering has always been about protecting enhancing the wealth of the phew, it always has been.
it’s a frozen mind set.
harry patch said, war is nothing more than organised slaughter.
we must we gradually bring to an end the violent philosophies that currently plague the world.
hungry impoverished people are easy to control, with threats of absolute starvation.
war never wins peace.
for that reason we must end the WM connection.
there are so many ways of producing good not for profit, food cheaply, scottish land reform will aid that process.
Heard this when making breakfast this morning and first thought was where was the money coming from? I have just crossed five countries in Europe and would have had to cross another one to get close to the Ukraine, so how is this anyone in Britain’s problem. Seeing that Russia and the Ukraine seem to be coming to an agreement.
Westminster should be renamed Warminster.
John King, I will quote Tito, I will arm all the civilians and they will flee into the hills from where they will defend their country. Always said the main thing Robert Bruce did was fight his guerilla war and that is what awaits anyone who tries it here. Kalashnikovs come cheap.
@Ken500
Again. Where is the source of this information about voter registrations going missing ?
Not rumours please. Facts.
@tartanfever
Shit balls.
Doh!
Will the state-of-the-art armoured vehicles have “armour” on them the same way the new aircraft carrier has planes?
Small details I guess. As long as they look good.
The 600 armoured vehicles are being set up for internal use to control the UK population when the economy finally goes pop. The US Government is similarly well armed.
What’s another £3.5 billion on top of £1.4 Trillion…..
Ahh!, they’ll be hiding all these lovely billions of barrels of Scottish Oil in 600 APC’s fuel tanks….crafty buggers these Englanders :).
Does this tie-in with David Cameron bringing back conscription?
It does seem an awful lot of vehicles given the cuts everwhere else, but they’ve been sing the landrovers with a lot of criticism so maybe, for once, it’s kosher (ish)
This and other defence spending is simply a way of transferring wealth from the taxpayers to their rich friends who all have interests in these companies.
Could this all be related to Theresa May the other day banging on about how an independent Scotland would have to build up it’s own intelligence network from scratch? Are the UK govt intelligence agencies just about to save the day by thwarting some fake terrorist plot that would have finished off Scotland?
Does anyone know, or be able to point me to someone who does know, of anymore events/meetings of Veterans for Independence in the Fife/Dundee area?
ozziesaffa.blogspot.com/2014/06/i-bet-she-regrets-asking-her-question.html
Might just give an idea about why USA and UK Governments are cranking up the rhetoric.
Their cash cow will run out in 18 months when Scotland declares independence, so they are squeezing every penny they can while in receipt of Scotland’s resources
In his final speech as POTUS in 1960 President Eisenhower warned against the permanence of the military-industrial complex (MIC) and the dangers of allowing it to direct policy. He saw it as ta greater threat to democracy than the Cold War, and a tool of exerting extreme power over citizens. Whilst no angel, he could speak with some authority and honesty at the time as a) he had spent a long time dealing with American arms manufacturers as president and b) he wasn’t up for reelection.
54 years later the MIC seems to be going all out to prove Eisenhower right. This bullying from the USA that they won’t protect Europe if Europe stops buying expensive American tanks is just a symptom. The TTIP and TPP (TransPacific Partnership) will enshrine this subsidy of American power in law for Europe and us here in Aus/NZ. And no politicians want to talk about it.
Except, maybe in some of the European political parties which have not fallen in step with the ultra-capitalist neoliberal business model. Scotland’s only hope of escape comes from voting YES!!
Guys, guys, guys and gals. You’re all missing the point here. 😉
As we all know there is a General Election next year. Now As a result of Scotland becoming independent in 2016, no if’s and’s or but’s here you understand it WILL be independent, our man Dave is looking around for places where he can maintain or increase his NON England Tory MP base. With him losing his massive number of Scotland based Tories he obviously needs another location and quite obviously Wales is that place.
This story about the order for AV’s being the biggest order in 30 years etc is just a cover. No honestly it really is, the main thrust of this story is to implant into the minds of the people of Wales that Tories = GOOD, Labour = BAD! This story is a covert way for “call me Dave” to bolster support for the Tories next year. Job creation is always a great way to win votes. 😀
Just think folks, TWO aircraft carriers NO aircraft going nowhere and transfer that thought to these vehicles. 600 AV’s going nowhere, I wonder if they’ll meet up with the two aircraft carriers at that place nowhere! 😛
If that money HAD to be spent on “defense” would it not make more sense to keep patching up the woeful Royal Navy so that the North Sea could actually have some kind of Naval presence?
The extreme cynic in my would think these armoured vehicles are needed in case the economic situation in the UK gets so bad people finally have enough and take to the streets.
Excellent analysis Lesley-Anne. I believe the Tories new campaign song is
“Road To Nowhere”
Well we know where we’re goin’
But we don’t know where we’ve been
Fnd we know what we’re knowin’
But we can’t say what we’ve seen
And we’re not little children
And we know what we want
And the future is certain
Give us time to work it out
We’re on a road to nowhere
Come on inside
Takin’ that ride to nowhere
We’ll take that ride
WHIT?
The Tories can SING?
Well that’s sold the union for me me Nana, I’m voting NO and I really, really hope the Tories are chosen to represent the U.K. at next year’s Eurovision song contest! 😛
That is it, I’m definitely voting NO TANKS!
Surely that should be NO Together Better Tanks SquareHaggis? 😛
Just had the vision of Ruthie dressed by agent provocateur. Thank god it wasn’t lamont. Not enough bleach for the eyes.
Maybe the Afv’s are for when they resurrect the Black and Tans for Scotland.
I wonder what is being abandoned from the MoD budget to pay for these armoured cars?
At the present rate of Tory cuts to the UK military front line numbers, this order will mean each soldier has their own armoured car …. by the time the vehicles come into service.
The problem in deploying these armoured cars into combat is the RAF currently does not have any ground attack and support aircraft to protect them and will be waiting till well after 2020 for the F35 Raptor (VSTOL variant) to go front line.
This reeks of the same brain dead political thinking that brought the two new carriers into being while cancelling the additional air /surface defence destroyers needed to enable them to operate as a self contained NATO unit and delaying the sub surface threat frigates for four years.
What do we want our armed forces to do?
Don’t know but lets buy lots of equipment they can never use effectively or do not need, instead to makes us wonks at Westminster look good ….
to The Man in the Jar says:
3 September, 2014 at 11:33 am
This may be of interest.
======================
Is there anymore Veterans for Indy events to come?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland?commentpage=15
This article by George Monbiot in the Guardian today
has certainly made a big impact.
Possibly because it is quite brilliant.
In addition, the comments on it are not to be missed.
I dont think these will be sitting in a field preregistered and waiting for carloans to come through. It will take a few years to build them. I suspect its just politicians making a big song and dance about the purchase of something they had to order anyway. I don’t think any will see action in Kiev or Kurdistan any time soon.
Are we getting 54 of them for our own army when the assets get divied up?
With the order for 600 armoured vehicles
by the government of an island state,
David Cameron has been told to stop mucking about with the oil supply.
In reply, he probably asked about the Referendum.
He will have been told ‘fruck the referendum’.
It’s about oil people.
We just haven’t been told yet by the BBC.
… if we choose to prioritise social welfare spending when the threats are on our doorstep.’
So warfare not welfare, so that is where all the money from all those who have been sanctioned has gone.
600 new armoured vehicles they could use them to defend all the food banks, that will be all that they will have left to defend.
The only foreign doorstep England has is potentially an independent Scotland, is iScotland the threat on the doorstep?
A 45 yr old man has been arrested in connection with Jim Murphy’s egging.
On BBC Scotland news
Think of another scenario. Such as an unelected coalition, so intent on remaining in power that they decide to use yet another pretext of utter lies (Blair style) to abandon next year’s election, requiring martial law to offset the inevitable lashback from the public. Unlikely? Maybe, but this is such an evil government that I wouldn’t put it past them to do this.
@James Caithness says: 3 September, 2014 at 6:45 pm:
“A 45 yr old man has been arrested in connection with Jim Murphy’s egging.”
A big 45year old man done it, Mister, and ran away.
Two days ago, was the 75th anniversary of the German invasion of Poland, and in effect the start of World War II.
Today, is the 75th anniversary of Great Britain entry into this war.
F*ck all on the news about it. Not a peep!
The UK government and the MSM are a bunch of hypocritical scumbags.
What would you be prepared to do if you found yourself presiding over the breaking up of Her Majesty’s Great Britain, having been sworn in as one of the youngest P.M.s to take the seat?
Perhaps it might seem like a good idea to enter a war. War not only galvanises patriotic feeling, it can be quite good for business.
Beware moment of need sermons ahead.
Threat on the UK doorstep? Like ummm having a border with a newly-foreign country? Full of separatists?
Your first decision with defence is do you bother?
Your second is, if you do bother, do you equip your forces with good kit, or do you shrug your shoulders, give them a shotgun and jeans and a T-shirt and send them out to die by their thousands?
Your third, similar in a way to the second, is do you want quantity or quality? The more you have, the more you can afford to let them be killed. The less you have, the better the equipment you have to give them to keep them alive.
Warrior is 25 years old. Scout is new, it will have a better engine, better weapons, better general architecture, and – better armour. This means that when they do have to fight, there is a better chance they will “win”, and a much lower chance they will die.
The order is for 590, which includes a few different variants. At any one time, not all 590 will be available for combat. Some will be for training, some being repaired or even upgraded, some will be in other theaters. I don’t know the action availability ratio, it’s reckoned to be 20-25% for units, perhaps it’s the same for armoured vehicles.
The original order would have been for 1300, it has been more than halved, if this is the end of it.
You either have an army, or you don’t.
“What possible pressing need does the UK have for SIX HUNDRED state-of-the-art armoured vehicles?”
They seem to have come in handy in Ferguson, Mo. Perhaps they’re anticipating mass civil unrest…