A lie won’t fly
Scots voted No, in the end, on a ‘vow’ of greater devolution. Every Scot I have spoken to understands that the promised transfer of power can only take place if the books are balanced and Scots no longer legislate on England-only matters; this is manifestly part of the deal. If the UK government, Tory or Labour, reneges on it then the referendum result will have been fraudulent and founded upon a lie that won’t fly.
The published ‘promise’ was vague and Scots took the words in the context of the language used by the No campaign in the days and hours before the vote, as was intended. The Scottish health system, for example, would in future not be influenced in any way by Westminster to the extent of the devolution of the power to raise the necessary taxes.
Today’s speech by Gordon Brown follows through on this and other issues; “the bedroom tax will be no more (in Scotland)” and there will be new, “wide-ranging powers over the economy, education, health, the environment and other domestic affairs, that in my view adds up to home rule”. There will be “the biggest transfer of power in the history of our islands”.
Everyone in Scotland and England understands that none of this can happen unless, at the same moment England cedes any control over these issues in Scotland, Scotland does the same in respect of England. And it’s a matter of respect, too. A political union simply could not be maintained on any other basis.
Gordon Brown’s speech, however, goes on: “It will be difficult to resolve the question of English devolution in 100 days”. In other words Gordon Brown, who is most certainly leading on this defining issue of the day, is saying that Labour would not balance the books. Instead, in government, it would de-couple the two issues, legislate to transfer power to Scotland and maintain the right of Scots to vote on wholly devolved issues, including Health, for England.
The hope of a Labour government would be that after a bit of technical tinkering with the right of Scots to vote on the middle, detailed elements of legislation, the West Lothian question would go away. But it wouldn’t go away, because that state of affairs would be profoundly unjust.
A new Prime Minister Miliband delivering the anti-privatisation legislation for England’s health system he’d put at the top of his UK election campaign – using Scottish MPs? No right-thinking person, Scots or English, could accept such a monstrously distorted and unfair arrangement as the new status quo. The union would crumble in very short order following explosive pressure from both sides.
David Cameron can’t or won’t legislate to balance the books and honour the vow without Labour’s support. He’d be accused the world over of fixing the system months before an election. Instead, he’ll best UKIP and make it the key election issue in Tory/Labour marginal constituencies across England. Voters will find the notions of guaranteed higher public expenditure and full control over health for Scotland impossible to accept in conjunction with even residual powers of Scots at Westminster on those issues.
Labour will hope it wins all the same, and with a large enough majority to win votes without deploying Scottish MPs. But leaving the issue unresolved – campaigning on a lie – would make any kind of Labour victory less likely.
In the end, David Cameron knows he would be risking the future of the union by creating two tiers of MPs, but he’d be putting it to the people first and would therefore be indemnified. Moreover, he knows that if he wins he’ll have other – EU – fish to fry. Ed Miliband, on the other hand, by pretending he wants to transfer powers now but refusing to balance the books, would be risking going down in history as the man who broke the union on a lie.
I, and others in the No camp with me, believe Scots are best within the union. I am glad that Scots voted No. But if we were lied to and the government of the day reneges on ‘The Vow’, the vote was a fraud and the UK is corrupted beyond repair.
If they shatter their promise completely for example no bill in January as promised are we not entitled to unilaterally declare independence?
I think it would still be a No majority, Every No vote I know that said why they voted No, said it’s fine as it is and this may never change.
Its who we are, I’m alright jacks. It doesn’t matter to people with kids and a mortgage that things are far worse for others or that there might be a better quality of life and a higher standard living to strive for.
Its fine as it is. And its in that void where the troughers feed and the BBC propagandists work, scaring, unsettling and undermining Scotland because they are well paid to do it.
So gaze upon the real King of Scotland. You can never unelect him and his henchman are legion, from Nick Robertson to the UK fascist thugs that attacked YES voters in Glasgow, behold your master and be afraid? nah.
link to bbc.co.uk
Let’s just put this 45% nonsense to bed before it becomes a joke. Only 37% of the eligible electorate voted YES. That’s right, barely over 1/3rd of Scots actually voted for independence.
A huge minority (about 18% or almost 1 in 5) couldn’t even be bothered to vote.
So look around you at work tomorrow and count out 10 people and assume that, on average nearly 2 of them didn’t care one way or the other.
With this level of engagement, we are years away from achieving independence, unless a fundamental change in our society takes place.
Bickering over the next bullshit commitment from Westminster is just another fruitless distraction.
L A
The link to Ian Paton’s facebook is not working.
unhappy smiley faced thingy.
Scottish referendum ‘English question’: Tory MPs call on David Cameron to create an English first minister in wake of No vote
link to independent.co.uk
The issue of pensioners is interesting. People need to bear in mind that this generation has endured a lifetime of indoctrination through the education system, television, radio and press. Many of their most basic assumptions about how society works are deep rooted as is their faith in the ‘truth’ of what is reported. Most are cut off from new media, particularly social media. Many have limited contact with people from younger generations. You can’t undo this kind of indoctrination with a handful of visits and leaflets. This is a process which takes years, maybe even half a decade, of continuing engagement, discussion and persuasion. I would imagine they are most likely to respond to people of their own age who are sharp, well informed, but also gently persuasive, non-threatening and who avoid patronising them.
It may be years before you have another chance to vote, but you can’t write these people off. Every vote counts. Look for solutions, not scapegoats.
link to newsnetscotland.com
@ G H Graham
I am aware of a number of EU nationals, entitled to vote, who thought that they should not because they do not intend to stay here. I have no idea what percentage of the population this group comprises (and some of them will have voted); a lot less than 18% I assume, but it may not be the case that those who did not vote mostly could not be bothered.
Re: John McLeod – The UK govt could legislate right away to remove Scottish MPs’ voting rights on committee stages of devolved issues. That might well be enough to put the devo+ legislation through. However, if any govt claims that ALL control of, e.g. Health is to be devolved (as all parties seem to be claiming), then even that won’t work beyond a couple of years. You can’t have a pm unable to legislate on the areas the HoC is responsible for, and you can’t have him or her usurped by a more powerful ‘minority leader’ (on devolved issues i.e. the most contentious ones and those which governments get elected mainly to deal with). The only solution would be to have an English parliament (prob made up of the English MPs) and First Minister. This would be fully federal, but the size of England might well lead to HE, Health, etc, policy being pulled along in England’s wake. In which case, it might not work and you’d be back to an independence referendum. Or it might work, but that’s where we are, I think. If they don’t legislate before the general election 2015, I think we might be in new referendum territory sooner rather than later. Which I guess means supporters of independence will now be hoping they renege? e
We stayed up allnight for the vote and could not believe the result we saw.
You must keep the SNP as the name and back it all the way, the percentage of thevote we won is amazing you are all amazing, regroup and come back stronger and bring everyone with you young and old, stay under one banner SNP. I am voting for the green party here as they are on your side.
I think the positioning the SNP had to take in order to win a majority and give us the referendum has alienated the reasonable right.
By reasonable right, I mean those centre right who perhaps 15 years ago would have had a fair percentage in favour of indy.
This was unavoidable, but the problem is that those people did not see an alternative to the broadly left indy parties on offer. They could not envisage an oar on that side of the boat which would get occasional water time in future.
This, of course, is not helped by a tendency for the far(ish) left to imply that we would have perpetual left wing governments. Even as a Lefty myself, I recognise that you cannot change the direction of the boat unless there is the availability of an oar on both sides.
Not that I believe an independent Scotland would have perpetual Left Wing governments in reality.
TBF to the far Left firebrands they have considerably toned down that implication from that which they used to purvey a few years back, but it still slips out occasionally.
I don’t think any real damage was done by that though because the real problem was that there simply wasn’t a Conservatives for Indy Party or a Business Friendly Indy Party out there which could convincingly convey the possibility of a change of direction in future when required.
Also with the burgeoning membership of the SNP, containment is bound to become all the harder. Perhaps it is time to revisit an old idea where the party splits into centre left and centre right parties with separate manifestos for domestic policies but a common constitutional manifesto.
In that way, it should be possible to garner a higher percentage of voters across the available political spectrum. And it is likely that available constitutional options are going to be very dependent on the total amount of support achieved.
AS nor NS at St Giles today Mr Swinney took on the duty.
A lone figure he looked surrounded by the NO’s in pic on BBC Scotland news site.
I think it will be 15 years minimum before another referendum unless something massive happens
80% of no voters were no voters from day1. Never looked at any yes arguments.
The only thing that will shift this paradigm is education and demographics shifting those 65+ sadly off this mortal coil.
In this time SNP is only electoral hope to navigate to another shot at it.
In mean time all the positive ideas about alternative media are great.
Need to bring 20% no not fixed onside with positive messages
Also try and get those that did not vote to engage.
Not going to be easy but Rome etc. peace
Shamelessly nicked from a post on Working Class Man’s FB page, because its on topic, and helps perhaps to think of the process:
“Scotland is having a huge colon cleanse”
Joyce is toxic and an opportunist; he can see what way the wind is blowing and what is going to befall the ‘Proud Scot’ Labour club in Westminster. Somebody pull-up the rope please………….
Tarian
looking @ and for the important reasons, is not scapegoating, but part of an understanding to discover what went wrong, so solutions can be found.
can NEVER find a solution until the causes are found.
if the solutions were self evident problems would not arise in the 1st place, we are in another place of learning now.
Jack Straw MP IS CURRENTLY DEMANDING his new labour party version of APARTHEID versus the people of Scotland.
Straw is not exactly a doyen of democracy.
Eric Joyce`s weasel words are betrayed by senior ex-cabinet members of new labour who demand Scots are excluded from the electoral process via English only mandate.?
Brown and Darling`s joint silence is a signal to the future.
To add to what I said above, here are a number of reason why a person might not vote:
a) being a temporary resident and regarding it as unethical to vote
b) not understanding the process – “I’ve already voted (in reality, registered) but I’ve had this white card through the door with something about September on it” – that one was given the right information, but was he really the only one?
c) not receiving a polling card and either not realizing they could still vote, or not having the sense to find out where the polling station was
d) missing the postal vote deadline and not qualifying for an emergency proxy
e) being taken ill and not realizing an emergency proxy was obtainable
f) being too ill to appoint a proxy, or not knowing anyone trustworthy enough to vote the right way
g) dying
O/T and posted on TV licensing thread
Had a TV license muppet at the door buzzer of my flat
HIM – I understand you don’t have a TV license any longer, do you have a TV?
ME – Yes, but I don’t watch or record live TV any longer
HIM – But if you have a TV you have the ability to watch live TV
ME – Do you have a computer?
HIM – Yes
ME – if you have a computer, you have the ability to download child pornography
HE LEFT IN A HURRY.
Folks, 800,000 votes did not go south, there was no stuffing of ballot boxes, we lost, but not fair and square.
We had our elderly population lied to, Labour activists were on the doorstep telling them there pensions would go, food prices would go up and bank accounts closed. How do I know this, because of door knocking myself.
Despite the lies and manipulation, 45% voted yes. If only another 200,000 had had the courage to ignore the lies.
Let’s move on, the voters need a reason to change their vote to Indie and it will happen, the lies will be exposed and the first one is beginning to unravel.
Gordon Brown virtually promised Devo Max in his speech on Saturday. What he described is a million miles away from what Ruth Davidson is offering. Johan Lamont is offering even less. Which one do they go for? My own view is that the Tories will stitch up Labour and offer the least possible, but in return for no Scottish votes on English matters at Westminster.
The next lie in my view will be the “discovery” of more oil reserves.
The biggest lie will be the Health Service. UNITE has warned that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership will result in privatisation. The Tories deny it of course but they are already outsourcing.
As for tactics I suspect only the SNP has the troops on the ground and experienced campaigners to win the Westminster campaign. I’d like to see an alliance of pro Independence parties though.
As for the photo of the 2 girls standing up to the bigots, well done. It bodes well.
Managed to go out the door today, first time since Thursday, could not trust myself to react most likely aggressively to the first sneer or inane reason given by a no voter. A lot calmer now.
The two main reasons for losing as we all know were the tory labourites and the Scottish and London media. They can be taken out of the equation by stopping their supply of cash and voting them out at the election.
How many of the people on this site bought a Sunday paper today, how many still intend to carry on paying their licence. This is were it gets real.
I dont blame the ordinary pensioners for voting how they did, they were scared out of their wits by the above.
For the older middle class citizen voting no, say 60+, fear of losing what they have was the biggest factor head and shoulders above everything else. The same age group were by and large content with the UK and were not interested in questioning it.
One of the difficulties is that Scotland is not oppressed in any physical way and a lot of people are reasonably happy with their standard of living.
It matters not what you think of them but we were asking them to take a chance that things would be better or at least the same, whilst acknowledging there would be massive upheaval.
Apparently the link to Ian Paton’s facebook page isn’t working so here is what I tried to link to. 😉
I am not one for the conspiracy theories and am always cynical of them. I think that is healthy but the one around our supposed democratic vote are getting harder and harder to be cynical about –
Jim Daly
I would like to offer the following observation. I was an enumerator at the referendum vote count on behalf of Renfrewshire Council. The Returning Officer was David Martin, Chief Executive of Renfrewshire Council.
The vote counting was finished at 2.30am. What then happened appeared to be a mystery to me.
Mr. Martin and his assistants in suits seemed to be in a flap. This consisted of staring at laptops in front of those who were responsible for collating results and strong words were obviously exchanged.
As time marched on Mr. Martin paced around the hall rather nervously.
Then there was more meetings up a corridor out of view.
There was one lady with a laptop who it appeared was responsible for collating all the the votes but something wasn’t going well.
She was taken away by one of Mr.Martin’s assistants, out of view of the public, only to return and disconnect her laptop and leave the hall with it under her arm.
Mr.Martin still paced the floor looking uneasy talking to what looked liked aides.
As time passed from 2.30am until declaration time (4.52am) there were visible signs that those in charge weren’t happy with something.
During this process there were observers watching everything that the enumerators were doing but not what was being carried out by those recording on the laptops.
From 2.30am until 4.52am the reason we were given for non declaration was to wait for a TV slot….
I would like my friends to share this to see if there’s any similar experiences, thanks
For the Twitterers, I’m not on it, but Working Class Man is and posts them on his FB page. Nice pic of AS tweeted by NS (but she is now Angry Sturgeon!). AS is raising a pint 🙂
Chic Macgregor,
There’s something in that.I want an independent,more prosperous and fairer Scotland.But I see that as a Scandinavian Social Democracy style Scotland rather than a 1970s British socialist style state.Which didn’t deliver what Scandinavia is.The working class workers in the working class communities of the working class class class.Its all a bit old fashioned.If you rule out everyone who has been to university and who owns their own house you’ll not have many left.
The vote was rigged, we might not have won, but the fact is we were never given the chance.
I would like to give 2 pieces of advice –
1 – Time is our friend now. There is nothing that westminster will do that will improve the lives of the majority, ever. They are the biggest rallying call to our movement.
So your enthusiasm must be controlled and patient. We can win many people over to our side if our arguments are well considered and backed by real sources. Just saying ‘the vote was rigged’ for example is not going to turn anyone on who voted no.
Real facts and numbers on economy, pledges made by westminster parties etc. all backed up by a knowledge of your sources is crucial. If you have the sources in your argument you can quietly ask the person debating you for theirs – 9 times out of 10 with a unionist their sources are unsupported or non-existent.
2 – anger. The way Westminster will fight a movement it cant beat politically is by quietly encouraging sectarianism. Union jack waving thugs will be used to provoke Scottish independence supporters and the media will use this to debase our movement.
We have to all, the entire alliance of us, make it clear that we denounce violence and aggressive behavior and anyone who acts this way (yes supporter or not) will have the police called on them. Their are such things as ‘agent provocateurs that operate purely to make peaceful mass protest/demonstrations turn into riots and dilute their effect and credibility so we MUST be a strictly pacifist group and we MUST have that policy made clear to all, all of the time.
Arm yourself with facts and knowledge and be ready to be a lawyer for your upcoming debates. Never allow yourself to be pulled into any kind of aggression and report any you see to the police.
3 – we must be inclusive and as good natured as possible. Reach out to those who dont agree with you, try to find common ideas and goals. When someone realises that you are just like them (English victims of their shit media for example) its much easier for them to lower their barriers and accept your point.
Putting a few thoughts together.
Re the 60+ demographic – this includes me.
So far in talking with these No voters I’ve managed to identify these main groups:
Those who hate AS and wouldn’t vote for him because he’s arrogant.
Those who vote Tory/Lib so don’t want SNP policies.
Those who’ve always voted Labour and would feel disloyal voting against their No message.
Those who believe the sun shines out of Broon’s backside and believe what he says.
Those who weren’t quite sure, and could distinguish party politics from the indy question, but were worried about the pound.
Those who weren’t quite sure, and could distinguish party politics from the indy question, but were worried about their pension (don’t forget, some over 60’s don’t draw a pension).
Those who weren’t quite sure, and could distinguish party politics from the indy question, but were worried about other issues, Trident the most mentioned.
Those who were just plain frightened, as it seemed tantamount to a bungee jump, and no matter how much they were reassured about its safety, still had a visceral fear.
Those who more or less hand over their affairs to a trusted family member, and do what they are told (usually more elderly in this group)
And there are more, and sub categories of the above.
So perhaps if we find out their reasons for voting against, we can do more to reassure them of the positives.
Hope this helps in some small way.
Was going to buy my brother some cycling gear for birthday so I thought I would buy it from Scottish company Endura.
Then heard it mentioned that they threatened to pull out of Scotland if a Yes vote.
Can anyone confirm if true.
We can help allay the fears of Cameron’s back benchers. They know already that the SNP MPs do not vote on English only matters (except where there are Barnett consequentials).
So we, the 45, the 1.6m who will vote will ensure that the 6 become the majority Scottish element in Westminster, thereby minimising the risks of Scots voting on English issues, Scots having a say for them in matters they can have no say on in their own constituencies.
And I’m pretty sure we won’t be looking at an 85% turnout. The 2m may vote in half that number.
So Ed can bitch away all he wants, but he won’t have his feeble 40 odd, or anything like it.
Now will you all just tell us what these promised more powers actually are please and keep your pledge to our pensioners and have them on the statute book but quick. And you better do it soon, for we are organising ourselves. You ain’t seen nothing yet.
FFS, people, almost 800,000 Scots DID NOT VOTE in this referendum, even though they were eligible.
Sure, some were probably being buried on Thursday and some too senile to remember what their own name is but that’s the equivalent of the entire population of Glasgow.
So there you have it; the most intense, hotly debated, political argument in Scottish history & well over 3/4 million people just didn’t even bother to officially tell anyone what they thought about it all.
What this statistic suggests to me is that the current method used to express a political argument & present it to the peole of Scotland isn’t a very effective one.
It is time for a complete re-think about how we connect to the electorate.
We are continually told how stoic our OAPs are (I’m one myself) how the women kept the family together during the war no matter how difficult the circumstances they found a way to overcome. The men at war must have met worse than a few Etonians in their day There was rationing into the 50s but one way or another there was always food on the table Are these urban myths or is it more to do with the me,me,me?
I well remember going barefoot all summer to save my shoes a habit that continued with me until the 60s It was what I’d always done
So how have they now become so timid will someone tell me? I know I haven’t and cannot imagine I ever will I’m mad at every last one of them
Scot, yes that’s true.
I think Aldi have their winter cycling range in this week.
Good to see some are calming down like myself and starting to think straight
Funny you should be talking about Tommy Sheridan – here’s what he’s just put up on his Facebook page
UNITY FOR INDEPENDENCE STATEMENT (PERSONAL)
Over the last couple of days I have been inundated with thousands of facebook and twitter messages from disappointed YES supporters looking for a way forward. I am encouraged so many have decided to become politically involved and stay politically engaged. Leaving politics to the politicians is a recipe for poor governance.
Obviously I welcome those wishing to join my own party Solidarity. We have some of the best activists around and can be contacted at solidarityscotland.org New members are positive. However it is not enough.
What I am about to say is uncomfortable for a socialist like me. I oppose the SNP position on NATO membership, cutting corporation taxes for big businesses, retaining the Queen as a head of State, sharing sterling and other policies. BUT in order to maximise the pro-Independence vote in next May’s General Election I believe all YES supporters should vote for the SNP and all other pro-Independence parties should not stand if the SNP candidate will commit to fight for a new Referendum as soon as possible AND against all Westmonster austerity cuts to welfare and public services.
In other words I suggest we in the YES Movement promote continued unity by backing the most likely Independence supporting candidate at next May’s election. In concrete terms that means advocating an SNP vote to try and unseat as many pro-NO party supporters as possible. Let’s punish the reactionary and dishonest NO parties at the ballot box next May. Let’s punish the shameful Labour Party in particular for siding with the Bankers,Bosses, Billionaires and Millionaires to try and crush our dream of a new and better Scotland with an avalanche of fear and lies.
The Holyrood elections in 2016 allow for more socialist, green and diverse candidates to be elected. The Westmonster system doesn’t. If SNP candidates commit to fighting for a new Referendum and against austerity cuts let’s unite behind them. If successful then we should insist all pro-Independence candidates in the 2016 Scottish election commit to a March 2020 Referendum. This magnificent movement for independence and change can continue and grow. We have youth, energy and hope on our side. Hope can triumph over Fear in 2020. I realise some socialists will find it difficult to support SNP candidates. That is understandable. BUT the stakes are huge now. We cannot let down the 1.6 million who defied the threats and intimidation from the rich to vote for a new and better country and world. Unity is strength. Don’t let our differences weaken our cause. ?#?HopeOverFear? remains our clarion call. Tommy (My personal opinion)
PLEASE SHARE
For my part I do not blame the older generation at all. They still did come out with 3 out of every 4 voting no and represent a huge block of votes.
There are various reasons wy they voted No, but as well as the No campaign instilling fear, the YES campaign failed to reassure.
This is why I think it is best for families to take their time and explain why they voted yes on one side and explain why the pensioners future will be safer in Scotland and not a huge risk.
On the other hand as the demographic that voted for Britain they have to take their fair share of the cuts to come. When they see that they are now worse off they will come around.
@Scot Finlayson
Yes they did and the story was carried by the Herald newspaper. Don’t recall the exact date published.
Has anyone been bayoneted by this troughing by the Chairchoob yet link to telegraph.co.uk
Or is no one wounded enough:D
The richest man in Govan is the Labour in Scotland MP, if and when he can pull himself away from five thousand quid reclining chair he claimed for in the snazzy London apartment he charged the sucker taxpayer sixteen thousand quid to move into.
link to heraldscotland.com
@Scot Finlayson –
This is the letter sent to the hootsmon on August 27th and the guy from Endura is indeed a signatory..
link to tinyurl.com
@Scot Finlayson says:
Yes re Endura link to heraldscotland.com
I finally decided to have a read through the Sunday Herald today to see what Ian McW and Bell were saying.
Further to my earlier posts I was glad to see 4 current SNP (Gordon MacDonald, Joan MacAlpine, Chic Brodie and Alyn Smith) politicians come out and agree with me that there should be a one banner, multi party alliance for the next Westminster GE. We need to get that as much of that 60% labour vote behind us and they ain’t gonna vote for the SNP. Nicola and the SNP will be busy for a while getting organised. All the other Yes groups, LFI, etc can meanwhile work on the practical task of keeping the momentum going.
Gotta say I love the 45 tag. Noticed some haven’t taken to it, possibly because it seems exclusive, but not sure any of the 55 have actually said that, and anyway, surely the message would be: join the 45 – we wanna make it 100.
Which leads me to a second point, which I’ve noticed doing the rounds: that of what percentage of people actually wanted independence i.e. it wasn’t that many. I think you can manipulate numbers in ways that will bring you comfort. What brings me comfort is that under 55s want independence. Time is on our side in that aspect. As for people not voting, well they, in a technical citizen sense, can’t really be included in calculations for or against (unless you’re the labour party in the 1970s of course).
@heedtracker – Sorry for the capitals but you have not responded to my request x3 to STOP POSTING LINKS TO MSM LIARS.
ARCHIVE please!
Re Nigerian Pirate and tommy sheridan
Since 18 September, over 1200 folk have joined SSP and Colin fox who is far more creditable with voters than than Sheridan.
Over 3000 have joined the Scottish Greens and over 10,000 have joined the SNP.
Lets remind the London parties of these facts at every opportunity.
@Chic McGregor
I agree with you.
Scotland has been presented as a naturally socialist country, but it is also a naturally conservative country. There is no contradiction here: neither left nor right in Scottish politics has ever really bought into the neoliberal, post-Thatcher philosophy.
Many people in Scotland probably belong to the ‘reasonable right’ you describe. These people like the idea of having a centre-right government we did vote for; but they were faced with an independence campaign that seemed to threaten eternal left-wing rule.
Sorry if ot
Stu stay with us please
We need Wings
@Swami Backverandah
basically you have the old, the stupid and the scared listed there.
the old – will pass on – sadly in some instances
the stupid – we all know some – nothing will change them
the scared – usually feeble minded – but are open to persuasion
lets concentrate our efforts on those areas that will give results, and I know from experience how emotionally and physically draining that can be.
I think it might help if we admitted and acknowledged that there are many No voters who are entrenched in their political views in regards Britain, Scotland, and independence.
I read or heard that the majority of No voters made up their minds at least a year ago, and simply were not in the mood to change their views. From this we should recognise that many Scottish voters found the referendum debate and general experience to be a threat to them personally, for various reasons. We were not able to reach these people. They effectively never really engaged with the debate.
The Yes campaign has many positives to take from 2011 to the present. However, it really pains me to say it but the No campaign were right when they said the silent majority supported them and the Union. The challenge now is to try and think of ways to win some of them over to independence, whether in the short, medium or long term. Independence supporters were excited and stimulated by the debate, and the opportunities of independence. But the majority probably felt the exact opposite. I don’t know how we change this. We must find a way though.
Almost forgot, happy independence day Malta, 50 years free from the evil 😀
The various Yes groups could agree on some simple practical steps that we can do without the politicians :
1. Mass non payment of TV Licence fee. Get everyone to sign up and use the money instead for a massive crowd sourced fundraiser – SCOTLAND SWITCHES OFF THE BBC.
2. Mass non purchase of all daily newspapers. SCOTLAND DUMPS MSM.
3. Organise on line newspaper replacement for both Yes + No readers. NEW MEDIA FOR SCOTLAND. Not just for politics (like Newsnet, DerekBateman,Bellam etc) but for sport, weather etc as well so that people will read it – not just for the politicos.
4. Mass transfer of bank accounts out of RBS and BoS.
5. In the meantime those self same groups can demand action from the Yes parties to better lay out a more detailed path in areas of Risk that cost us the No vote, e.g. pensions, banks, currency, etc. We can then continue to leaflet the no areas while we watch Westminster pull themselves apart before next GE.
.. and so on…. There is so much we can do….
The Scottish Alliance should go into either the General Election or Scottish Election on a mandate that it will declare independence if they win.
@Chic McGregor
I agree that ‘Bro Sis’ alienated a lot of people including me as that is the old left which I never bought into but it still resonates with some sections of society. Both Tommy a Jim worked their socks off appealing to the disenfranchised who have never really had a voice but voted Labour because they weren’t Tory. I applaud them both for their untiring dedication as I do Robin Macalpine of The Common Weal who comes with the same message without having to resort to the old left language whist encompassing all spectrums of society.
Independisters (new word) come in all shapes and sizes so amalgamating that vision across all visions is were we failed mainly because the blatant media bias never explored the concept outwith the British State being supreme.
Good man Tommy Sheridan, not words I would normally say! However, it’s what I have been advocating out on the myriad Yes pages. To pick a pro Indy party and support, and make sure a strong candidate is fielded. I prefer SNP, but others should go to what Indy party is closest to their leaning.
I see they had a special service of reconciliation for the bearers of false witness at the Church of the Whited Sepulchre this morning.
link to heraldscotland.com
The St Giles service was hypocricy on stilts, the Moderator would be more worthy of his dog-collar & office if he gave the lectern a good pounding and reminded these assembled so-called Christians that the Weapons of Mass Destruction, which half this congregation just voted for, are an obscenity, an abomination & not wanted here in the West of Scotland.
Thanks to Lesley Anne for the pic’of the brave wee lassie with the saltire, we need the thug who assaulted her caught and his mugshot widely circulated. Somebody knows this scum.
The dogs in the street know in which Glasgow pubs these low-life’s are based. Why do they still have a license?
Finally, as a pensioner, I think Tommy Sheridan was superb throughout. 45% YES.
@muttley79 says:
21 September, 2014 at 8:53 pm
I read or heard that the majority of No voters made up their minds at least a year ago,
This is true mutlley79, but 3% of No’s made the decision on the day, another 3% in the last few days and another 3% in the last week. So in the last week 9% of Nos decided to vote No.
Another 10% made their mide up in the month before the referendum.
We only needed a 5% swing.
link to lordashcroftpolls.com
Having thought on this for a couple of days and talked it over with friends I am coming to the conclusion that Alex Salmond’s principle (but perhaps underlying long term) objective was actually to crush the labour party in its heartlands and not necessarily to win the referendum
The referendum was seen as an opportunity to drive another nail in the SLAB coffin.
Evidence?
The ‘more devo’ trap set for Labour by Cameron (and Salmond?)
The targeting of policy and campaigning effort at Labour heartlands
The Yes vote being strongest in hard labour areas
Perhaps this is necessary to win independence, but the SNP have to be careful they don’t lose the support of the soft right which has underpinned then for decades in Eastern Scotland
When we get our full independence the political landscape will change. Remember the majority we have today was not possible. Other than in 2016 it may not happen again.
And after Indy it almost certainly won’t. I had my own views on the possible path the SNP may have taken and on its leadership had we been successful. When we are successful we will be governed by a broad church coalition. The singular aim that holds the SNP together today will see several branches once that aim is satisfied.
So the likelihood of eternal left wing government i a fear easily put to rest. There will be independents, and Greens and others to form coalitions with whatever form the largest party may take. But for now we need a majority to get the next Indy Ref bill through. And that’s why the SNP today has representation from all sides. It won’t always be that way.
Thank you for the boycott list.
Very happy to see labour on that list.
I visited Bannockburn this afternoon with my boys. There is a time line in bronze that should be postered in every Scottish school.
On the way back it popped into my head what if I pulled into a petrol station and saw a ‘NO THANKS’ sticker on the nozzle, or on the pull handle of a supermarket, or bank.. I might decide to think just that and take my business else where.
Reappropriation and giving an extended layer of meaning to this symbol might help my feel less sickened. I read about the burning of the Saltire by our better together friends in George Square last night. I continue to see these banners in fields, I’m not intending to be part of team scotland as it is now. I want it to change and despite some of my friends and colleagues who voted no checking in on me to see how I was feeling, as if I was getting over a flu or something, I want you to know the medicine is bitter. So if you’re like me stay sick because we will be much stronger before we are done here.
The Scottish Alliance should go into either the General Election or Scottish Election on a mandate that it will declare independence if they win. Perfectly legal way to do it ( I think ).
The BLabs and Tories would have no choice to do the same, effectively making it like the US elections. If they don’t they will lose, simple as that. But if they do join up, more Labour voters would move to our side.
Every election should be a mandate for independence until it’s won.
Thought yous might like a read at this piece by Peter Arnott.
link to peterarnott.blogspot.co.uk
Mealer: Going to University or owning a house (more likely owning a debt) does not remove a person from the working class. I qualify for both your descriptions but if I lose my job tomorrow, my family and I will be homeless pretty shortly. What other description fits me? I am working class.
Re Tommy Sheridan, I have no time for him, but I agree with his stated position regarding the Westminster elections. In truth, neither the SSP nor the Greens are likely to stand candidates for Westminster. Neither would win and the resources would be better used to promote a radical alternative at the Scottish Parliament elections. Both parties would need minimum guarantees along the lines suggested should they be asked to encourage and commit their activists to the cause of electing SNP MPs.
I attended a get-together of people involved in Yes Rutherglen last night. The biggest single group was undoubtedly SNP members but there were others including SSP (i.e. Me) and LFI there as well as a much bigger group of people who were not Party affiliated. I declined the invitation (jokingly extended) to join the SNP but I offered to help leaflet for the GE. As noted elsewhere, SNP, Greens and SSP have gained substantial numbers of new members through the campaign. These will be people who want to do things asap and also having come to activity through the referendum campaign, be cooperatively minded.
Robin McAlpine’s Common Weal concept could be a facilitator of such action.
Regardless of how things pan out, there are exciting times ahead.
It seems that Jim Murphy is being hailed as a hero at the Labour conference in Manchester…
Tommy Sheridan is correct IMO.
A vote for the Greens, SSP etc at Westminster is pointless; it just dilutes the pro-indy vote under first past the post.
A vote for Labour is also pointless even if you want devo max – what good will that do if England votes Tory? Ed doesn’t even want more devolution.
England will likely vote Tory because Ed is currently being anti-English in saying he’s against devolution for England as is being promoted by Dave (English MPs only on English matters); that will tip the balance in addition to the Tories being seen as better on the economy. Tories will win.
Vote SNP tactically (or not for SNP supporters) and you’ll wipe out Scottish Labour. Maybe then they’ll decide that the union offers them nothing and Scotland should be their focus.
The SNP will also have a good hand, being in power both at Holyrood and in majority at Westminster (for Scottish MPs). They may even hold the balance of power in Westminster given the UKIP threat to both the Tories and Labour + a Lib wipe out.
Holyrood is where you vote for the parties you wish to govern Scotland. It is our parliament and where we should have our rainbow of political voices.
“The real result of the referendum? The death of the UK state”
link to heraldscotland.com
link to bbc.co.uk The end is nigh. They lost Glasgow for good probably and they’re about to lose all Scots, Welsh, NI votes in HoC English law stuff. And its all down to Crash and the Flipper and Murphy too ofcourse. Crash and the Flipper will make it to the Lords tough Murphy is a demoted shadow and soon backbencher.
If only Crash had at least some idea of what Scotland was really like, he may not have had hysterics and promised Scotland THE VOW.
heedtracker says:
21 September, 2014 at 8:38 pm
Has anyone been bayoneted by this troughing by the Chairchoob yet link to telegraph.co.uk
Or is no one wounded enough:D
The fact that this knob Davidson is involved with NRA is worrying. he is supposed to represent my people, the folk of South Glasgow. not in my name.
@David Stevenson –
Ha! Nice one.
I’ve a feeling you won’t be the sole SSP rep at any more meetings for a long time to come, and amen to that.
I do not believe that the SNP should work with the Better Together Parties to help them deliver on their NO Vow. The Nos said they would deliver so let them get on with it and lets see what they come up with.
If the Tories get their way and Scottish MPs are barred from voting on English only issues at Westminster ,thus denying Labour a majority in the House of Commons votes, then any future Labour premier will be unable to deliver for English labour voters.
I would like to see the energy and people involved in the YES campaign examine the possibility of forming a campaigning alliance for the Westminster elections next year.
Individual political parties have their own policies which differ in many respects but are united in their support for INDY. What about Scottish Parties standing under their own banner but also that of a Scottish Alliance? Also agreeing which parties would fight which parliamentary constituencies in an electoral pact to maximise chance of success.
e.g.
Scottish National Party [Scottish Alliance]
Scottish Green Party [Scottish Alliance]
Scottish Socialists [Scottish Alliance]
Scottish Solidarity {Scottish Alliance]
Sinky @ 8.48
I quite agree – its great to see all these parties membership increasing at an amazing rate. It bodes well for the future.
Just thought it was interesting since what Tommy has said was mentioned much earlier in the thread. I’m not a fan of his far left dialogue but he gives his all for a common goal.
@Welsh not British: says: 21 September, 2014 at 9:37 am:
“I’m all for the West Lothian question being answered providing the North Britain and West Anglia question is also answered.”
Considering the only connection to West Lothian in that infamous, “West Lothian Question”, was it was asked by Sir Thomas Dalyell Loch, 11th Baronet a.k.a., “Tam Dalyell”. Born in Edinburgh he was raised at his mothers, (Nora Dalyell’s), family home, the Binns, near Linlithgow, West Lothian. His father (Percy) Gordon Loch, C.I.E., was an Empire civil servant (Political Agent) and a scion of the Loch family. His father took his wife’s maiden name in 1938, and through his mother he inherited the baronetcy of the Binns in 1972. Dalyell was educated at the Edinburgh Academy and Eton College. He did National Service but failed his officer training. He then went to King’s College, Cambridge, where he was Chairman of the Conservative Association, and Vice-President of the Cambridge Union Society. He joined the Labour Party in 1956.
Just your usual typical Labour Party MP – 11th Baronet, Edinburgh Academy, Eton, Cambridge, Vice Chair Conservative Association.
The Question he asked is perhaps the only thing of note he ever did and it was as false then as it is now. The question concerns the very long running English complaint that in the legally ”United Kingdom Parliament” at Westminster the 533 English MPs have long worn two hats as they are all also members of the legally non-existent, “Parliament of England”, of Westminster. So even although there are 533 English MPs to a total of 117 Members from the other three United Kingdom Countries the English still want to exclude the other countries
MPs from interfering in what those 533 Members claim are English only matters and, in any case, those English Only matters are funded by the United Kingdom Treasury as, “United Kingdom Matters”, as England has no block grant but everyone else gets a Westminster decided Block Grant from which they must fund all their devolved functions.
The reality is that those 533 English members at Westminster have made that nominally, “The United Kingdom Parliament”, into the de facto Parliament of the country of England in a four country splitting up of what began as a two partner United Kingdom.
Effectively we have exactly what David Mundell described thus :- “The Treaty of Union,Extinguished’, The Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England The United Kingdom”. That, for our Welsh friends means that you and our Irish friends, (and OO enemies), out with the mighty Country of England, are also extinguished as either Principality, Kingdom and Country.
As long as the Parliament of the United Kingdom remains as also the Parliament of England all non-Englanders are second class, extinguished, subjects of England. %33 English MPs say so.
So the boss of Endura, Jim McFarlane, says it is the uncertainty about Scotland staying in the European Union that scared him into a No stance.
Scotland wanted to stay in Europe, England/UK wants to leave.
Thats just crazy.
Aldi for cycle gear.
@ crazycat above
I did notice on the polling station duty that quite a few people thought they needed the polling card to be able to vote.
We are rookies at this. We need to use the newly acquired knowledge to make sure all our Yes voters come out and vote next time.
I was thinking of writing down all my experiences and thoughts and keeping them so I can remember in 5 or 10 years time when we go for the win again. Of corse next time we will be better armed and they cannot get away with their lies and black propaganda.
Aaargh” not %33 English MPs – 533 English MPs.
The talk of Labour being finished and the possibility of a wipe-out are far-fetched if you ask me. Damaged yes, but we have to be aware of their resilience. They barely lost anything in Scotland at the 2005 GE despite it following the invasion of Iraq and they successfully defended every seat in 2010. They are defending very big majorities from then and will be hard to unseat in many. A good tactical game is going to have to be played over the next 8-9 months and good candidates will be needed to oppose the Labour incumbents.
Can it be made a criminal offence to burn a saltire flag in Scotland? Are Holyrood able to legislate that?
One thing that has cheered me is the calibre of our Scottish politicians, who run rings round the so-called elite of Westminster. Tommy Sheridan is right to advocate voting for the SNP at Westminster elections. I am sorry if his “brothers and sisters” talk put off the church-going Marr viewers. Is this not how Jesus himself spoke? And, by the way, Iran, an islamic republic under the Muslims which the Daily Mail hate so much, has declared weapons of mass destruction “un-islamic” — it is a shame our hyprocrital kirk-goers are in such thraw to weapons of mass destruction.
I feel like I am living in a nightmare — English nuclear weapons which we do not want in the first place are based on Scottish soil; fascist thugs organising pogroms in my beautiful home city, the YES-voting Glasgow. Like many people, I am no longer sad, I am just very very angry — and now very politically keyed-up and ready for a long battle!
Okay, I’m not a conspiracy type person but something happened to our household and I’d be interested to know if it happened to anyone else. My adult daughter was once registered to vote at my home address. She moved out about 2 years ago to a different constituency in a different town. When the last annual electoral canvas arrived by post I removed my daughter from our household as an eligible voter. However, when the voting ballot cards arrived by post they included one for my daughter. I was a bit surprised but thought nothing more of it. Now I am wondering if she was given a vote here, despite me removing her from our household as a voter, so that someone could use her vote knowing she would vote at her new home.
Two comments from further up the thread:
“From this we should recognise that many Scottish voters found the referendum debate and general experience to be a threat to them personally, for various reasons. We were not able to reach these people. They effectively never really engaged with the debate……
……Independence supporters were excited and stimulated by the debate, and the opportunities of independence. But the majority probably felt the exact opposite.”
“The Scottish Alliance should go into either the General Election or Scottish Election on a mandate that it will declare independence if they win. Perfectly legal way to do it”
It is possible that the first quotation explains why the second is unlikely to happen (much as I wish it were otherwise).
I think it is very important to maximize the chances of unseating Labour MPs (first, then MSPs), but doubt if a manifesto promising UDI is the way to do that!
I was speaking to my mums carer this morning, who was a yes, and she said after only two days, four of her colleagues have all said they now regret voting no and wish they had voted yes. She also said she is sure council funding will be cut and expects to be out of a job by this time next year.
Gutting, from every angle.
The English backlash has started in the daily wail. Several crass articles giving commenters every opportunity to slag us off. Also one saying Lord Barnett is demanding his formula and funding is stopped immediately.
I have spent the last few days feeling depressed and angry having waited 40 years for last Thursday only to be let down again, but if Jim Murphy is being hailed as a hero, then I’m up and running. If he is an example of a ‘heroic’ British Establishment MP then my feelings about UK/GB or whatever it wants to call itself has been right all these many years. We need to get out of it and they can keep all BLAB (Scotland Branch) MP/MSP’s over the border where they so firmly belong. They are a disgrace to their country. And the local LibDem activist who got ‘photied’ with him up here can take off too. He was last seen scuttling round the village delivering letters penned by the local Labour councillor. I take it they are now in bed with Labour. Who’d a guessed.
By the way, thank you Stu and everyone for still being here. It has helped to keep me going for the last few days. It’s great to see you all back. And just to say, I am an oldie who voted YES, so we’re not all bad.
>Boycott List
I don’t normally go along with these boycott lists, but will definitely be making an exception for Grants / Glenfiddich.
They donated a substantial sum to the NO campaign.
I normally made a point of buying Glenfiddich, especially because it was one of the last independent Scottish distillers.
Never again. It would stick in my throat now.
Scottish buyers boycotting Grants/Glenfiddich won’t make a difference to them, but if Americans and Canadians were aware that their name is mud in Scotland, then it will cost them.
I have relatives in Canada, and they told me that for them, the Glendfiddich is Glenfinished !
@Kenny
Not all brothers and sisters are harmonious groups believe me.
@Chic McGregor Wealthy Nation campaigned for independence as a right wing group link to wealthynation.org
@chitternlicht
only 62% of NO voters had made their mind up at the start. 10% decided a year before and 28% within the months leading up to the referendum, 10% within the last month and 9% within the last week
See Lord Ashcroft’s figures link to tinyurl.com
crazycat honey – I think a commitment to putting Scotland first might well have traction xx
@Onwards
There product is yuk anyway.
Does any one know if the thug pulling the flag from the lassie on the ground has been arrested yet.
Eric, I have a question.
If I have accurately understood the argument it seems to me the crux of the issue revolves around the transfer of powers from Westminster over various matters to various constituent parts of the British Isles/UK.
The NHS provides a representative example, where the promises made by the various parties to the Vow are seen as the way to ensure Scottish control over maintaining a Scottish health service as a public service free at the point of use funded by general taxation. Ditto on matters such as the bedroom tax via a devolvement of power from Westminster to whatever bit of the UK we care to talk about under this federal paradigm (England, Wales, Scotland, N. Ireland, Yorkshire, Birmingham, Greater Manchester, whatever).
However, what if that power, in effective terms, no longer resides at Westminster but elsewhere?
At present both parts of the coalition Government at Westminster do not seem to have a problem with giving away their power to maintain, amongst other issues, a wholly public sector NHS, free at the point of use paid for through taxation, via the current TTIP and associated protocols currently being negotiated at European level by the EC and US. As I understand it just about anything and everything is encompassed by this proposed trade agreement. From health and education through to employment rights and environmental protection, planning laws and banking regulation.
So here comes the question Eric:
“If everything and anything that it worth having devolved powers to control is already given away by Westminster in this agreement – which will allow unelected and democratically unaccountable investor groups and corporations the right to sue civic society at any level over any democratic decision which costs them potential profits – what exactly is this Vow actually worth, if anything at all?”
Now it may be argued that what has animated many people in Scotland, whether no or yes, will be sacrosanct and not subject to these onerous and undemocratic terms of the TTIP and associated protocols. Yet, at this point the issue of how such an arrangement for Scotland or Wales or N. Ireland will be allowed to stand when England and English voters have to put up with the inequities of TTIP?
I cannot speak for anyone else on these islands (I’m responsible for my body and mind and not anyone else’s). If I lived in Scotland rather than the former SRSY I would have voted yes. As it is, from where I’m sitting this vow is utterly worthless as the powers that people think are going to be transferred and devolved from Westminster will not exist to be transferred in any meaningful form. Certainly not in the way I see many Scots people believe to be the case.
It seems to me that those who are hanging their hat on this vow as somehow delivering the ability of Scotland or any other part of the UK to escape the neo-lib policies and regain control over decision making to create a more democratic and caring society are going to be sadly disappointed.
link to facebook.com onwards 🙂
Latest poll on from Survation today on 2015 GE intentions are
Conservative 18%(+1)
Labour 39% (-3)
SNP 35% (+15)
Liberals 3% (-16)
So, 40% still going labour. Just think if there were a Scottish alliance and 9 months of crap coming out of Westminster around Devo then there is a real chance of an alliance getting +50% of vote and Labour down to 24% (based on transfer of 40% of labour vote) I’m no expert but how many seats would that translate to ?
This could provide massive momentum to having another referendum.
No one assumes that ending Labour’s grip on Scotland is going to be easy but that has to be the target. Our best weapon will be Westminster when it reneges on the vow and the English MP’s talk about Scotland like a piece of shit on their shoes.
No Red Tories is a website to help organise the targeting and tactical voting to maximise the chance to unseat as many Labour troughers as possible. Of course we wont be able to get rid of them all but we must work tirelessly to unseat the ("Tractor" - Ed)s in chief Murphy, Davidson, Alexander, Curran, Darling, Brown, Hood
link to noredtories.co.uk
Most interesting is the move from Lib to SNP – ho ho ho.
[…] next May if the devo max he promised to Scotland is offered to England by the Tories. Labour will be damned as liars in Scotland and Wales if they don’t honour the Vow and are seen to be stymying efforts to devolve […]
@ Roboscot
The marked registers and ballot papers are kept, for a year I think. There must be some way of officially asking whether your daughter was marked as having voted at your polling station, although I don’t know what it is. It is probable that the Electoral Commission is in charge, so unlikely to be helpful. Can you find a sympathetic politician to find out for you?
If this is the first year she wasn’t registered by you, though, it is more likely to be an error. I also vaguely remember a pledge not to remove anyone from the register before the Westminster election, to avoid disenfranchising people who did not understand the new Individual Voter Registration system that has already been introduced in England and Wales and will now apply here too.
Normally someone is only removed if they have changed address and filled in their previous address on the form, or if they are removed at the time of the normal compilation of that year’s roll (as you did).
Achnababan says:
21 September, 2014 at 9:02 pm
Having thought on this for a couple of days and talked it over with friends I am coming to the conclusion that Alex Salmond’s principle (but perhaps underlying long term) objective was actually to crush the labour party in its heartlands and not necessarily to win the referendum
The referendum was seen as an opportunity to drive another nail in the SLAB coffin.
Evidence?
The ‘more devo’ trap set for Labour by Cameron (and Salmond?)
The targeting of policy and campaigning effort at Labour heartlands
The Yes vote being strongest in hard labour areas
Perhaps this is necessary to win independence, but the SNP have to be careful they don’t lose the support of the soft right which has underpinned then for decades in Eastern Scotland
I think you mean ‘principal’ rather then ‘principle’; in this case your sentence required an adjective rather than a noun, and ‘principle’ is always a noun. If you grasp of English grammar is too insecure to understand this, please let me know and I will be happy to explain further in words of one syllable if necessary.
Your comments about the First Minister lead me to suspect that you may be a ‘concerned’ troll; anyone with any semblance of intelligence can see that the First Minister is a man of integrity and principle (which, by the way, is an example of the correct usage of that word) whose whole life has been dedicated to social justice and the service of the people of Scotland.
If it were not for the fact that you are not bright enough to pass judgement on anyone, I would suggest that you refrain from judging others by your own venality (I realise you probably don’t understand that last word, but if you can’t cope with alphabetical order in the dictionary then Google will be of help).
@alistair
LibDem theme tune
Scottish Alliance has another advantage.
Liberal Democrats abbreviate to LibDem
Scottish Alliance to – ScotAll. I like that.
Try again.
link to youtube.com
Bugger – should have typed ‘than’, not ‘then’!
@cynicalHighlander
Yes good tune for libdems but your earlier “Error 404 not found” was also funny … 🙂
How good would it be to see Danny Alexander and Carmichael wiped out.
And the symbol for ScotAll? A blue circle with yes in it.
Simples.
I have not seen any mention on the rules regarding the counting of the 750,000 postal votes. On Thursday night Ruth Davidson mentioned she had seen them and then seemed to backtrack. Obviously no questions from the BBC anchor. Did that seem strange to anyone else. Sorry if I have missed a previous post
@GH Graham,
Irvine Welsh did a column some years ago on how the right to vote includes the right not to vote. It doesn’t matter how effective or ineffective the message or messenger is, some people will refuse to engage. They will switch off the news, they will not read the papers. Some people will refuse to be reached unless they are dragged (metaphorically) kicking and screaming to the ballot box.
We shouldn’t be rethinking it, we should be reforming (and devolving) electoral control. Starter for 10: Mandatory voting which includes a “None of the Above” option on the ballot paper. Punishment should be community service or a fine dependant on your ability or willingness to pay. Make them get involved, make them drag their backsides to the polling station to partake in their civic responsibilities.
Right folks here is another one for the pot.
link to facebook.com
Onwards
May I suggest Isle of Arran Malt, wonderful stuff 🙂
Going forward I think the SNP should have only one manifesto commitment in the run up to the 2016 Scottish Elections. To dissolve the Union. If the SNP win more than 50% of the vote, the proposal should immediately be put to Parliament when it reconvenes. With the help of the other pro indy parties which get seats in the regional vote this would win the vote.
If the SNP do not get 50% of the vote but are still the biggest party, they should refuse to form the Government and let Labour run a minority administration.
This will result in all the benefits that the SNP bring such as the council tax freeze ,free prescriptions, Free Uni, Bus pass for over 60’s to an end.
Many No voters said to me, that nothing would change we would still have the SNP at Holyrood and that would suit them, hit them where it hurts, let them feel the austerity coming there way. Its time we stopped being nice.
The time to show the people that the SNP could successfully run the country is over. The only time we should be running the country is when we are independent.
This was an interesting read from a Scottish politician. I am a Scot living In Australia who followed the debate for the last 6 months, after I visited earlier this year. I have to say that discussing the referendum as if it was intrinsically fair to the Scottish people is disingenuous. Other than searching the internet, the Media reporting on the referendum made it impossible to imagine that there were any more than a handful of braveheart types who would vote YES. Every single report I heard in Australia always concluded confirming that NO would win. (including one notable where a pakistani business man importing kilts and bagpipes to Scotland stated that he would be happy to see ‘Scotland stay part of England’. A self affirming prophecy which left one in no doubt who was directing the campaign. What was interesting to me was that many ‘Local’ Australian Scots, Leaders in their field – a professors of politics, an Australia Senator, a noted Dr – and various other academics all stated that they believed Scotland would do much better as an independent country. Confirming I think that those who were able to consider the issues independent of the British establishment were much more likely to see the benefits….for Scotland.
The propaganda and fear based campaigning was grossly immoral and embarrassing to observe – aimed as it was towards vulnerable people. How was it ever possible for Scottish people (particularly those with no access to the internet) to get a broad grasp of the issues? And honest answers. House prices plummeting, tax hikes, oil running out, loss of British subsidies, businesses deserting en masse….. bully tactics every one.
How could any MP charged with representing their electorate stand by this ‘win at all costs’ dirty politics approach? It made an absolute mockery of the process being about Scotland, or what “was best’ for it’s people. The images of James Murphy shouting down to people in the street and the coverage of the ‘pro – union” march in Edinburgh (Orange Order) was profoundly ugly. How could Scots not be deeply offended by the insult to their intelligence presented by the cereal lady? How could any fair minded person think that the end justified the means? Three weeks before the referendum all pretense about this being about Scotland ceased to exist and the rhetoric turned to saving the Union, and the bleak prospect of life in Britain if Scotland ‘was lost’. For the Life of me I cannot see how ANY person born in Scotland could stand by this betrayal…. How could any decent person be happy with the result of this unconscionable process …and carry on discussing it as ‘legitimate’
Just plugged those numbers into
link to scotlandvotes.com
and it gives SNP with 14 seats.
Messing about with the predictor it seems the SNP needs 39% of the Westminster vote to get a majority of Westminster seats.
@Natasha
It’s not nice to criticse spelling or grammar, and for instance though I’m not dyslexic I type as fast as I used to (very fast) but my brain isn’t as fast enough to type right.
But on other fora I’ve seen Achnababan’s view a few times, and it’s a natural suspicion. I thought about it and decided it wasn’t right, but there are grounds for it.
It doesn’t make him a troll, though it doesn’t mean it doesn’t.
Still disappointed I see – I’m kind of over it and looking forward very much, though the odd tear catches me ocasiojnally. Like now 🙁
@Lesley-Anne
link to facebook.com
@Balaaargh
I prefer the engagement way of devolving power in an inclusive way rather than punishment how that is done is another question.
This has just popped on my screen.. 🙂
link to tinypic.com
I like tommys idea -‘mass snp support concerning Westminster – and pro Indy party of your choice in scotland.
Springbank Malt. Members of BfS. And it’s a damn fine dram.
I’ve had to fulfill a wager and a bottle of malt will arrive in Northampton tomorrow. Hopefully he’ll choke on the Springbank, especially as the accompanying card confirms said distillery chief as a signatory of the Yes declaration.
My beloved wife, who hated politics and voted yes because i was driving her mad has just informed me she has JOINED the SNP and is very angry with the whole unionist political situation.
How proud I am. Will rejoin SNP when I can get through.
Got a right numbskull on twitter, Vote Labour and Labour and Kesia Dugdale will save Scotland! 😛
The dug will save Scotland. HAHAHAHAHAHA Hilarious!
For me it’s SNP for Westminster and party politics for Holyrood. Even then I will vote tactically with a view to driving every last unionist out of office.
That said I would urge everyone to join whatever pro-indy party suits them best. Get involved, get active, learn or brush up your campaigning skills. A hard rain is going to fall on Scotland in the next few years, we all need to band together to resist it.
\Roboscot
My daughter was also in the same position a card to my address and another to hers. I checked the voters number and they were different so she could have voted twice.
Re Robert Peffers @ 9.18 says on Tam Dalyell:
He is a direct descendant of James North the infamous Highland Clearances factor and bluidy Tam Dalyell who hunted down the Covenanters. What a pedigree.
He was advised to use “Tam” rather than the Rt Hon Thomas Dalyell to appear more like a common man in the 1962 West Lothian by election which propelled the SNP and Billy Wolfe into the national conciousness.
G H Graham
The turnout by any reckoning was very high. Not sure why you keep labouring the point about turnout – it was higher than that for the Scottish Parliament referendum.
Simply stating your point over and over again – as you have done, won’t make it more relevant or important.
The turnout was very high. There will always be people who don’t vote. Fact is, 45% voted for independence, so we came very close to winning.
Re Glenfiddich. I drink Talisker by choice – and Skye was Yes. Have emailed relatives in expatria and urged that they join the boycott.
We can really make a difference, cant we 🙂
@dadsarmy
You’re right of course, but I couldn’t resist putting him/her in his place; much more satisfying than just telling someone to f**k off. And I did acknowledge my own spelling mistake! 🙂
Disappointed doesn’t come close to describing how I feel right now; having my heart torn out of my chest would be more accurate. Won’t stop me carrying on the fight, though.
Comment from the Rev’s twitter…
UK Basic State Pension is £5,881. Germans get £26,000. That’s just how much we are screwed by the incompetent Westminster elite.
My MP is crash broon , I will be voting SNP and trying to persuade
as many as possible to follow suit. Fife was 45/55 so a lot of people in Fife didnt fall for his p*sh.
“The Bruce” had to destroy his enemies within in order to unite his nation and lead it to it’s independence. He took Scotland back city by city, his army growing with each victory, destroying infrastructure of the occupying forces so that they had no bases from which to control Scotland. He is telling us how to win our independence.
Destroy Labour/the union in Scotland, destroy the bbc/unionist media in Scotland, Politically take every town and city in Scotland, grow your army of support and win independence…simples!
Cynacaly cynical
cynicalHighlander says:
21 September, 2014 at 9:31 pm
@Kenny
Not all brothers and sisters are harmonious groups believe me.
@Ian Mackay
Just played with that Westminster predictor. Just shows how great a Scottish alliance might work. Alas it appears we need a nuclear bomb to remove Carmichael Orkney – probably due to the size o his Erskine.
Don’t agree with those that say SNP only for GE. There are so many labour voters who would vote labour again. Its a tribal thing and voting Yes was ok cos they could vote labour again in 2016. Hate to keep repeating myself but the SNP won’t do this on their own.
Let’s see if the ripple effects of choosing true Scotch Whisky reaches Beijing..
link to youtube.com
lets rock and roll.
(contains swear words, that many often use)
Maybe one of our Lawyers for Indie could take the cudgel up with the Electrol Commission about the consequences of vote rigging taking all available evidence to the meeting and ask them just what are they going to do about it.
Make the meeting public knowledge, so some exposure could be given via wings/newsnet/ bella/ as many as poss. The msm will not we know that.
Ref vote rigging,labour I suggest could be the force behind it, they had, and still have the most to lose, and they have form I have heard said…
@Alan McHarg – The Bruce
My husband bought me a necklace of a spider inside a resin teardrop on Saturday. I will enjoy watching my NO colleagues’ bemusement when they ask me why I am wearing it and I say, “Robert the Bruce”. They’re not very bright.
A real terms cut in child benefit when (if) Labour get returned at the GE 2015 it’s to be frozen in order to make savings. Breaking news from their conference. Why target children?
That’s a vote winner eh!
It’s great to see so many people joining the SNP.Im looking forward to a bit more help when it comes to going round the doors before the next election.Every bit as important is for workers to make sure they are in a union and to make sure their union supports Full Fiscal Autonomy,including oil revenues,for Scotland.
link to wingsoverscotland.com Its also going to be interesting to see if this comes about with the new English only parliament.
Some were watching the Celtic match on Thursday night, or couldn’t be arsed going out later on. Some were too busy queuing at the Apple store for the latest gadget made on the backs of slave wages. We do need to accept some just aren’t interested, some are right wing (“but I’ve done ok from the Union”)some don’t have an open mind. I did come at it from every angle, changing the angle to suit the person’s outlook – you have to start with a door that is ajar, not locked tight.
My office is particularly difficult for me now. The nasty no’s have come out of the woodwork. It appears to me that we are living in two separate countries now. I feel no allegiance for what they voted for. I now feel like a foreigner or a republican in Northern Eire during the troubles.
For them life can get back to normal. The existence or barely existing mentality returns. For them the banality of the Xfactor and Coronation Street. The hypocrisy of watching Scotland and singing a song about the freedom they denied me.
For me life will never be the same. I am hurting and angry and sad.For some people the referendum was just and inconvenience. For others a little silly game. For me and the 45 it was everything. It was my life and is my life to continue fighting for the real Scotland. I cannot enjoy their banal conversations about nothing. I cannot be a friend with someone who doesn’t care for other people or their own nation. The people who voted to protect their mortgage or jobs. Have blown it for everyone wit the selfish vote for nothing.
We are now a two tier country of Scots and Brits. I care little for anything right now as I feel detached from half my country.
We have to accept that we will never get over this until we get independence. We have to live with this but its an unhappy limbo.
I am more motivated than ever to fight for the 45 who dared to dream of a better nation. As for our rugby team they won’t have my support. I don’t care about the Scotland football team. Being a nation is not for 90 minutes its for life.
That’s an interesting wee read that Nana. Thing is there seems to be more and more of this sort of stuff coming to the surface. I don’t want to stir the conspiracy theorists up again, think I’ve done that often enough today 😉 , but the more and more of this sort of thing that becomes known then I’m afraid it does begin to smell a wee bit like election fraud.
Damn it Croomp. I looked at the site you linked to and thought “What the hell is he going on about?” then I realised it was right in front of me. DOH! 😛
I have a sneaky suspicion OLD that the situation of TWO voter registration cards arriving at two different addresses is not uncommon. Not only that but the situation where an election card arrives at an address for child! One instance I know of happened in my village. I have also seen a picture on Facebook tonight where a young two or three year old received a polling card.
The trouble here is that the father had informed the council way back because his kid also received a card for the European elections. In my view councils are either a)not up to the task b) incapable of doing the work or c) a combination of both!
@EphemeralDeception says: 21 September, 2014 at 8:31 pm:
“For my part I do not blame the older generation at all. They still did come out with 3 out of every 4 voting no and represent a huge block of votes.”
You do well not to blame the older generation, EphemeralDeception, but there is a far more reasoned explanation for why a sector of that generation voted NO and it was, NOT fear. It quite logically was political loyalty. The Tory party has but one lonely MP in Scotland and the reason is they lost much of their loyal, “I’ll vote as Mummy & Daddy voted and as their parents before them voted also”. But they are no aa deid ye ken.
However, those old Tory, often called the Blue Rinse Brigade, though a dying breed, that make up the bulk of the Scottish Tory faithful. Furthermore, the more brainless Labour Party old faithful, “Ma Faither and ma grand faither afore him voted Labour sae so wull Ah”, still exist. The younger generations are the ones who not only moved away from the old Tory & LibDems and Labour Parties retained a large faction but as, Labour for Indy. There lies the older person vote for NO independence. The existing, aged, Tory, Labour and LibDem Unionists who though not members of those parties were loyal supporters and voters. Not to Mention such as the older OO members, BNP, UKIP and other nutters.
Did you really expect the entire Labour, Tory and LibDem party support to vote YES? As long as there are Scottish Labour, Tory and LibDem parties you will find it is the older people who have always supported them who still do so unconditionally. My Party, right or wrong.
So please, folks, stop with the sweeping generalisation that the old folks sunk the campaign for it is old independence supporters like myself who continued to fight for independence throughout the many long lean years when we were treated like lepers by Labour, Conservative and the various shades of Liberals & Democrats from before WWII till the more recent rise of the SNP. Without us there would have been no SNP through those years and thus no broad based cross-party YES campaign today.
Mutley79 Mmmm
I always thought you, through your subtle negativity and righteousness were trying to deviate us. The silent majority dont exist as you would like to make us think,
the ‘All right Jacks’ frightened the old folk, please don’t blame your mums, dads or grannies for this..silent majority or scared old folk,are a product of Gordon Brown and Alister Darling.
Valerie speaking of Celtic. A guy in my work was going to vote yes but voted no, on the basis that Celtic would never get into the Premiership! He can in the next day and I said I hope you are proud of yourself. I said I voted yes. He said I voted no now let’s put the great back in Britain. I could have thrown him out the nearest window. Thats the level of intelligence of some no voters. Thats without going into all the Irish/British stuff at Celtic!
The 55% “win” is easily explained by early postal votes by the scared and alast minute switch by those who believed “the Vow”. 5% that’s all it was – we will win.
@ one less day
As I tried to explain earlier (but made a mess of), a person who is on an electoral roll can only be removed if the relevant Electoral Registration Office is notified.
This can happen during the annual update, when each household returns a form (now superseded by Individual Voter Registration, but they have promised not to remove anyone before May 205 without checking).
It can also happen if someone moves during the year and applies to vote at their new address. There is space on the form to provide a previous address, but if the applicant does not fill this in, they will remain registered there because the ERO cannot distinguish between people with the same name, or check rolls for different constituencies without some clue as to which one to search.
That is why people sometimes receive polling cards for previous inhabitants. These people have not informed the ERO that they have moved; the arrival of new people will not remove them until the annual update, since they might have been additional inhabitants rather than replacements.
Essentially the ERO relies on people to be both clued up and honest. If a building is demolished, the council will update the register, as an unfortunate couple I spoke to discovered this week when they turned up to vote. There was nothing that could be done; they had neglected to register at their new address and that was that.
It also used to be (and I think still is) legal for students to be registered at their home and also at university; again they are trusted to only use one vote. That caused problems in 1979, when every non-voter counted as a No due to the 40% rule; No-voting students effectively voted twice, Yes-voting ones cancelled out their own votes. At least we didn’t have that problem this time.
We all wondered or worried about postal vote rigging when 120% of postal ballots were printed. The thing is if they were or have gone down this road. They had to make the win convincing to avoid a tight win and a recount. I think the amateurish nature of the vote tampering on the videos. Is a result of the panic the week before. They perhaps were taken by surprise and have arranged a hasty manipulation of the votes!
This is growing legs ! If you feel you can contribute to our IPTV and IP Radio broadcasts drop us a line.
iScot Magazine 30th November inaugural issue !
link to indiegogo.com
@Big Jock (10.30) –
Well said that man.
Hang in there pal. You have something to believe in. They just have ‘a job’.
@Robert peffers
My mum and dad are in late 80’s and big Yessers. As my dad said, he made up his mind 70 years ago.
What would have been helpful is to get simple graphs/tables of data for example on pension levels across Europe that we could explain to those with concerns. My mum gets the minimum state pension and its a disgrace. A lot of them have never been offered anything better and can’t see anything beyond the MSM crap that they read. What we need to do is offer and explain a better solution and then folk will start to come around. In my view the stuff we had on pensions was feeble and wouldn’t have convinced me one iota to change my vote if I had been no.
The problem with any alleged vote/ballot rigging needed to be addressed at the time not days later I think we have to accept that going down that route detracts from the real issue of the democratic deficit in the MSM which is where we lost.
Natasha
Yes, I know. One minute optimism and drive, the next thinking how the f*** did it happen, how could people vote NO?
Which is the next stage right enough, making a more detailed and thorough survey than the Lord Ashcroft one, and then talking to Noes and asking them what would have been needed to reassure them, change their minds.
Anyway, talking to son in Dundee, and some Noes he’s talked to are already wondering if they made the right choice. Like many I don’t like third hand info, but well he’s my son, so he’s kind of second-hand!
can you join a political party as a non active member and still get vote for leadership
A.N.Surgent says:
21 September, 2014 at 10:16 pm
My MP is crash broon , I will be voting SNP and trying to persuade?as many as possible to follow suit. Fife was 45/55 so a lot of people in Fife didnt fall for his p*sh.
==================
I am from Cowdenbeath but moved away so thank f*ck Broon’s not my MP. but I got Menzies Campbell, nae luck eh!
( bit O/T but when we have our new media – is it OK if I do the agony aunt bit – I’ve got a whole new take on the concept )
James Caithness
Jeez, that must be depressing.
dadsarmy
it would be really good to hear as many stories as poss of people who voted no, and who now regret it.
ie create a face book page where people can tell their stories.
@Paula Rose
No cutting stilettos allowed.
@Paula Rose
No cutting stilettos allowed.
@Paula Rose – is it OK if I do the agony aunt bit
As long as the agony doesn’t include whips or high heels 😀
I appear to be double edged there.
Does any one else find themself looking at other people and sepeculating if they voted no.
Talking to one of my German friends and saying that we were boycotting certain
Shops. She laughed and said we did that in the thirty’s. Need to be careful where we are going with thought and action.
Re challenging the vote – the papers are kept for 6 weeks so the vote is not final until after that. Plenty time for a challenge if there is evidence.
@GH an alternative explanation for the 800,000 registered voters who are too lazy to vote is that they did vote but there’s a pile of ballot boxes lying at the bottom of the Clyde and the Tay which would also explain low turnout in Glasgow and Dundee, the two big YES cities. But I don’t want to encourage conspiracy theories!
@Big Jock. I felt the same. But it’s better to know that institutions and people who you once admired and trusted are in fact shallow egoists. It’s sad. But truth is liberating. No more TV and MSM, no more false hope about Unionist parties.
Also, can we not call it the Scottish Alliance as it sounds like a co-op supermarket. It can be just as easily abbreviated to SA which has unfortunate associations. I’d prefer YES Alliance (YA!)
Many years ago I had a surreal moment whilst canvassing.
I knocked on a door and a very pleasant woman answered
Me “Hi I am canvassing on behalf of the SNP, can I ask how you are intending to vote?”
Woman “Oh I don’t vote, I let God decide.”
She gently closed the door and I spent 5 mins trying to get my jaw off the floor.
I did consider knocking the door again and mentioning the suffragettes etc but thought it probably would get me nowhere and I had other doors to knock and a tight timetable.
As we all know the membership applications for the SNP has gone over 10,000 in the last three days and 1200 for the Greens in the same period. Now I wonder, does anyone know how Labour are doing in the membership stakes? 😛
link to twitter.com
alistair says:
21 September, 2014 at 10:20 pm
@Ian Mackay
what if ric, lfi and the ssp joined?
and the snp didnt post candidates in glasgow and asked their supporters to vote for this new party?
Agree with others, stop denigrating the older people. Look at the SNP membership, thousands of seniors there voting Yes. Out canvassing, plenty of older people saying Yes.
I also came across a lot of 35 to 50 age group voting No, all mid-career not wanting to upset the apple cart.
The problem with the internet is everything is instant. We need to take time to analyse the whole thing. Only the SNP have the resources, experience and know how to move this forward. So join up and get involved with the branches, know and build your area and work your way up to eventually consider standing for office in the administration or parliament.
Sinky @ 10.13 and Robert Peffers earlier re Tam Dalyell. Dalyell’s forebear James Loch, notorious for assisting the Duke of Sutherland (Marquis of Stafford) in the ‘improving of the Highlands’ (the clearances) wrote of the people whom he so brutally removed from their homes in the Straths:
“In a few years, the character of the whole population will be completely changed. The children of those who are removed from the hills will lose all recollection of the habits and customs of their fathers.” It is well known that he despised the Highlander and what he did amounts to ethnic cleansing.
He became a Liberal MP and died in London in 1855. So in 200 years nothing much has changed in the political arena. But Loch seems to have succeeded in his aim, because so many of the descendants who remain in the Highlands today are completely faithful to the ‘Union’. Millions more live in foreign countries.
The only thing the British Establishment did not throw at the movement for genuine democracy was tanks.
It did once, sent in by Churchill, to George Square when it seemed as if socialism was about to remove Scotland off the Empire’s list. There is irony in that.
Then again, on this occasion they didn’t have to bother. The Orange Lodge and EDL were happy to imprint who is boss.
Make no mistake, Westminster made fools of us all.
Get real, accept the vote NOTHING is going to alter the result, we lost this time. Regard it as a trial run.
bookie from hell,
You can join the SNP, get the card, and then do nothing at all. Votes are usually at conference – the next is at Perth in Nov. Can’t remember if they have voting for those who don’t attend – you need to check with them.
However, the key point is, you can join the SNP, and then do as little or hopefully as much as you want.
@Lesley-Anne
Thank you, that’s the first proper laugh I’ve had since Friday morning
Lesley-Anne
Hahaha He has the cheek to say” thats the dark arts of PR.”
One bit of feedback from a couple of NO campaigners is that they throught about people’s circumstances, and took tailored information to them to convince them to vote NO.
To be ready for the next referendum, YES supporters need to hug a NO campaigner now and find out all their dark and dirty secrets! We could call it a NO squeeze.
Hi,
Just recieved this on an e-mail from my local SNP Councillor.
The e-mail is from Tommy Sheridan
UNITY FOR INDEPENDENCE STATEMENT (PERSONAL)
Over the last couple of days I have been inundated with thousands of facebook and twitter messages from disappointed YES supporters looking for a way forward. I am encouraged so many have decided to become politically involved and stay politically engaged. Leaving politics to the politicians is a recipe for poor governance.
Obviously I welcome those wishing to join my own party Solidarity. We have some of the best activists around and can be contacted at solidarityscotland.org New members are positive. However it is not enough.
What I am about to say is uncomfortable for a socialist like me. I oppose the SNP position on NATO membership, cutting corporation taxes for big businesses, retaining the Queen as a head of State, sharing sterling and other policies. BUT in order to maximise the pro-Independence vote in next May’s General Election I believe all YES supporters should vote for the SNP and all other pro-Independence parties should not stand if the SNP candidate will commit to fight for a new Referendum as soon as possible AND against all Westmonster austerity cuts to welfare and public services.
In other words I suggest we in the YES Movement promote continued unity by backing the most likely Independence supporting candidate at next May’s election. In concrete terms that means advocating an SNP vote to try and unseat as many pro-NO party supporters as possible. Let’s punish the reactionary and dishonest NO parties at the ballot box next May. Let’s punish the shameful Labour Party in particular for siding with the Bankers,Bosses, Billionaires and Millionaires to try and crush our dream of a new and better Scotland with an avalanche of fear and lies.
The Holyrood elections in 2016 allow for more socialist, green and diverse candidates to be elected. The Westmonster system doesn’t. If SNP candidates commit to fighting for a new Referendum and against austerity cuts let’s unite behind them. If successful then we should insist all pro-Independence candidates in the 2016 Scottish election commit to a March 2020 Referendum. This magnificent movement for independence and change can continue and grow. We have youth, energy and hope on our side. Hope can triumph over Fear in 2020. I realise some socialists will find it difficult to support SNP candidates. That is understandable. BUT the stakes are huge now. We cannot let down the 1.6 million who defied the threats and intimidation from the rich to vote for a new and better country and world. Unity is strength. Don’t let our differences weaken our cause. #HopeOverFear remains our clarion call. Tommy (My personal opinion)
PLEASE SHARE
Good to see Alex is back on form! Tomorrow’s Daily Telegraph page is posted in the FB group No Red Tories, and very funny indeed. AS many thought, he is going to work some mischief from behind the chair.
I have joined No Red Tories, and offered my admin help. They are getting quite organised now with a FB group and a website to subscribe to for emails. The group will be working towards unseating all Labour candidates. People like Mr Joyce will make it like taking candy from a greedy little baby.
I’ve been squeezing a few Naws – it’s quite fun (for me anyway).
Liz @ 11:05
Me “Hi I am canvassing on behalf of the SNP, can I ask how you are intending to vote?”
Woman “Oh I don’t vote, I let God decide.”
Strange that – I was looking on the thread from the 18th into the 19th when the declarations were coming through. I’m from the Western Isles and we have an SNP MP & MSP. The Yes campaign had been much more active in the islands than UKOK but we still lost overall.
Someone asked on the thread what the hell had happened in the Western Isles to declare for No. I tried to reply but my wifi here (overseas) is pish slow. I had fully expected a Yes win.
Of course the Western Isles are known as a bastion for the Church – be it the Free Presbyterians, Church of Scotland or the Free Church, there is a huge following for religion in the Islands (not by me I hasten to add)
Anyway, it has since transpired that some of the ministers had been advising their congregations that it would be un-Christian like to support the break up of the UK.
So it looks like we were not just battling the Establishment, the MSM and big Business. We were also battling the Big Man himself, upstairs. The odds were definitely stacked against us that night.
link to youtube.com Alex salmond speech! today
I’ve just run the Survation poll figures with SNP on 49.2%
link to survation.com
Scotland Votes comes up with a Westminster tally in 2015 as follows
SNP 47
LAB 11
LIB 1
CON 0
link to scotlandvotes.com
The tally of new members at the moment is 11,000. Not bad for a defeat?
Paula R @ 10.37
Don’t forget every postal vote went out with an name & addressed no thanks vote leaflet on how to vote in the same post, very sneeky.
Paula Rose says:
( bit O/T but when we have our new media – is it OK if I do the agony aunt bit – I’ve got a whole new take on the concept )
Oh you little tease Paula. You know now my solitary brain cell is going into overload with all sorts of scenarios don’t you? 😛
We aim to please Icy.
We do all the silly stuff so others can become serious and discuss real stuff like politics and things! 😀
I’ve been in touch with God – she says she lost contact with the churches a long time ago, Janet W I know I work in a home for elderly people who need special care.
@
A.N.Surgent says: 21 September, 2014 at 10:16 pm:
“My MP is crash broon , I will be voting SNP and trying to persuade as many as possible to follow suit. Fife was 45/55 so a lot of people in Fife didnt fall for his p*sh.
Aye! A.N. Surgent, and Broon the loon is my MP too and I, moved to Fife even brfore Broon was a candidate for Fife and I’ve never voted for him and have always attempted to convince others he was a waste of a cross on the voting paper.
That’s been a long hard job but it looke much like it is beginning to work. I remember sitting among people at public meetings and being the only non-Labour voter in the place. Not to mention I’ve been, Err! “Escorted”, from the hall by several kind gentle …, (well really NOT so gentle really), kind gentlemen.
L-A honey I reckon the page could be an income earner.
LOL, 17 new members for Labour, but HOW MANY LEFT the party?
@fred blogger
Sounds like a great idea, but it should be headed “genuine stories only”.
In general we do need to do a post-mortem about what we all did wrong, and even about what others did wrong. Not to blame, I don’t do blame myself, but to improve. That has to be very open and vert brutal.
To start the ball rolling, I should have stopped spending all my time on the Herald posting (Peter Piper) especially in the last few days, as by then I’d have reached all the people I might reach anyway, including journalists. And people on the search for info might read articles, but not below the line. Next time will be different, and in fact I probably won’t bother with traditional fora anyway. I do have a cunning plan!
Lesley Riddoch podcast
link to rqs.libsyn.com
Interesting tweet
link to twitter.com
Long tiring day in much neglected garden. Night all.
I’ve already laughed at the 17 new members signed up to Labour.
Here is some more fun with numbers:
Scottish Labour FB page – 5782
Labour out of Scotland 2015 – 12612
Introspection and naval gazing might seem appealing and there’s nothing wrong with taking some time to get over thursday and putting out new ideas.
However, we can actually fight back right now for those who want to. Starting with the likes of this and spreading the message to those unhappy No voters who have watched “the vow” crumble.
So @UKLabour to fix the economy will cut Child Benefit. Remind me again @edballsmp @Ed_Miliband why working parents should vote Labour?
BETTER TOGETHER?
@Paula Rose says:
I’ve been in touch with God – she says she lost contact with the churches a long time ago, Janet W I know I work in a home for elderly people who need special care.
No cutting remarks from me. It’s a bugger looking after oneself. g’night all.
BigJock, 10:30pm
Thankyou Jock, l think you sum up beautifully how a lot of people feel.
Tommy Sheridan Jim Sillars and Robin McAlpine did a great job of galvanising the left, as indeed did Cat Boyd, Elaine C Smith and Eddie Reader. There was no problem garnering the Left wing votes – job done. But although there are really good speakers from Business for Scotland like Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp and Michelle Thomson, they are neither obviously Right nor was there a party presence there, something that looked like it could form a government. The potential vehicle wasn’t there for the voter.
Anyhoo that is in the past and its a different game now.
Objective now is all hands to the SNP or to an alliance with the SNP to get a government that can deliver indy.
Two main problems.
First, Westminster in cahoots with the Supreme Court will make another referendum illegal. That means, in all probability, that the majority of the electorate voting pro-indy party will be made by straight mandate which if the UK government does not recognise it and opt for negotiated exit would require UDI. For that mandate to be clear, the SNP et al will have to clearly state this intent before the election.
Second, is the issue of timing. There are devastating cuts coming down the line. If the SNP are in power at Holyrood, will they get blamed for them? Westminster and its media lapdogs will do their level best to do so.
Probably not between now and 2016, but if they win then and there is no referendum forthcoming, the electorate IMV will eventually be persuaded to blame the SNP Government and the SNP will be obliterated in 2020 for the foreseeable future.
However, if they opt for the election mandate method and make it clear before 2016 so that indy is declared soon after, that can work two ways.
If the declaration of intent puts the voters off, then the SNP lose 2016 and Labour gain power but only to suffer the unavoidable cuts resulting in a UDI mandated SNP victory in 2020.
If the SNP get in in 2016 with a clear USDI mandate it is indy even earlier.
To summarize.
The SNP must not win in 2016 with no clear mandate for UDI and no possibility of another referendum.
Paisley also voted YES. It has the huge housing schemes such as Ferguslie Park, Home of Cllr Terry Kelly. It has a population of 81,000 and takes in the area of Glasgow Airport.
It has a boundary with West Glasgow/Govan areas. It’s perfect for a co-ordinated plan to take out all the surrounding Labour MPs.
Paula Rose says:
L-A honey I reckon the page could be an income earner.
I don’t think there is any doubt about that Paula. 😛
Hi Kendo. I will be honest with you. I have poured much more cash than I can really afford for the referendum. Any funding I give for any TV CHANNEL or magazine/newspaper venture, first I need to know that it has been well thought through and is a joint venture between the disparate groups, signed up to and equally run by the likes of NNS, Bella, Women for Indi, Derek Bateman… and most importantly Business for Scotland…. as they will have the ability to build a successful business model for the venture.
If something like an online TV or Radio station is going to be successful, then it needs to be a 24 hour a day broadcast, to compete with the MSM. Anything less will not be good enough. I am sure that there is enough resources and skill to achieve this, but that ambitious goal cannot be achieved by individuals working alone.
“UK Basic State Pension is £5,881. Germans get £26,000. That’s just how much we are screwed by the incompetent Westminster elite.”
This is not correct.
The pension you get depends on how much you put in over your working life.
You pay 18.9% of your gross salary/wage into the pension system and you employer pays the same. If your salary goes up or down you still pay the 18.9%.
To get 26.000 EUROS/year, you must have had a damm good job.
The average pension in Germany is €1176/month. €14.112,–/year.
The minimum basic security pension
(Die Grundversicherung) is €347 + costs for a flat + heating MONTHLY.
I have to say that all these people who say forget the result and potential vote rigging etc, we lost so move on..
What is the point of ever having a referendum on independence again.. if WM just fix the result and then get away with it?
Folk might say, well there were 400,000 votes between it so vote rigging wouldn’t have made a difference.
I completely disagree. I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest that half of those 400,000 No votes could have been Yes votes so really we needed 200,000 to get there.
When you think of all the evidence etc 200,000 votes isn’t a great deal to ‘hide’ or ‘move’ to a No table split between 32 different areas.
Dundee for one could have had 10’s of thousands of votes moved during the 2 fire alarms!
West Lothian apparently declared 11,000 votes more than on their printed final figure cast!
Read on here that Renfrewshire council may well have ‘fudged’ figures!
Countless evidence of vote counters putting papers in wrong trays!
.. All this and not even counting the postal votes and what happened to them.
I firmly believe bad practice has been proven to have taken place nd believe a re-vote with independent impartial adjudicators should take place!
If not, forget another referendum because WM will just play the same dirty tricks.. and get away with it once again!!
Chic can I suggest the SNP go into Westminster 2015 on an independence ticket. The Westminster government is sovereign. A majority SNP in Westminster for Scotland does not need a mandate. We could hold a legal referendum. Holyrood needs permission.
@fred blogger
Thanks for the link to AS speech. I wasn’t going to watch it all but it was so good I stayed to the end. He is a class act.
How did she think we got a government?
God appears in a burning bush to give us the names of the MPs.
The rest of the team thought it was hilarious.
I agree Stevie. We must at least try to investigate this.Otherwise as you say are we spending our lives on a futile rigged cause!
Incidently to the couple I met in Droothie Neighbours Stirling on Saturday. Hope you feel slightly better knowing the campaign is continuing. Even the barman looked depressed!
Daily Record shitting itself sales will plummet if better together break VOW
walofs
Speaking as a 68 year old myself ( though I only look about 65 🙂 ), it saddens me to see people blame older folk for losing the referendum.I know that many older folk for various reasons voted no.As we have seen over the weekend though, we have more than enough division in Scotland, without having generational division too.
My own mother in law has always wanted independence but now has dementia.She lives alone, and was persuaded, ruthlessly, by her neighbours that she should vote no.Who knows what pressures people were put under.
Given the momentum of yes, and the one poll that showed yes in the lead, plus the secret polls by wastemonster, something seems not quite right. An oil rich country being allowed to use the revenues for the good of it’s population, what planet are we on ffs.
O/T Did a fair bit of driving tonight around the Central belt area and out to Loch Lomond.
It was quite uplifting to see the amount of Yes stickers still on cars. I think people just don’t want the dream to die.
I had taken my stickers off the car on Friday morning but I am now inspired to put them back on the tomorrow.
Why should we let the dream die.. but again, we have to get any future counts overseen by independent bodies or open to fixing.. again!!
Capella
he likes to walk and talk, he made some excellent points.
he has walked WM into a mine field, so much so that they cut their noses off to spite their face for short term gain.
they have sold off the UK to save it!
you got to have a sense of irony and humour or you would buckle under the strain of WM’s stupidity.
indy will be ours sooner than later.
🙂
Folks might be interested in this from the 45+ Facebook page.
If anyone wants to visit the facebook page then you will have to follow these simple instructions cause apparently you can not go direct from facebook.
EDIT: Here is the link in two parts (as it seems that it isn’t even coming up in people’s searches)….
**remove both sets of copy + paste both halves into address bar of your browser.
RIGHT UPDATE FOR ANYONE CONFUSED,,,,,THERE ARE 6 YES SIX RALLYS NEXT WEEKEND,,,,1) EDINBURGH PARLIMENT SQUARE SATURDAY 27TH SEPTEMBER 12 NOON RALLY FOR REVOTE,,,,,,,SATURDAY 27TH SEPTEMBER RALLY FOR REVOTE 12 NOON GEORGE SQUARE GLASGOW,,,,,,SATURDAY 27TH RALLY FOR REVOTE 12 NOON ABERDEEN ST NICHOLAS CENTER…SATURDAY 27TH 10AM WEST DUNBARTONSHIRE DUMBARTON CASTLE……SUNDAY THE 28TH EDINBURGH PARLIMENT SQUARE RALLY FOR REVOTE 1PM,,,,,,,SUNDAY 28TH SEPTEMBER GLASGOW GEORGE SQUARE WE ARE STILL HERE RALLY 1PM!!! ANY OTHER RALLYS WILL BE POSTED AS THE COME IN………..OUR RALLY THE 45 PLUS IS 29TH NOVEMBER THOUGH DATE TO BE CONFIRMED,thanks
Big Jock
Exactly mate. Just one big cycle of campaigning for independence, dirty tricks and then a No vote and then back to the beginning again.
I can’t believe the amount of folk that are saying forget it and move on.. even in the face of the compelling evidence.
Foreign media have even been reporting on it and saying it’s shocking!
We are the mugs for sitting back and for keep letting it happen to us.
link to change.org?
Hope you can copy and paste this link. This one is to seek a judicial review of the postal ballots, which they say left the Scottish supervision. It is a narrow window to appeal, as the papers will be destroyed soon.
Considering it’s posted on a Tory site, the piece at the link below is quite insightful. I’m persuaded, for the moment anyway, that a two-referenda approach might yet work in future, taking much of the risk out of the first vote for the old, etc:
link to conservativehome.com
@Chic McGregor
I made the point ages ago in the Guardian and a few times in the Herald, especially after Rev’s survey where he was disgusted that Scotland wasn’t as socailist as anyone thought, that Scotland is largely conservative in nature, just not as toxic as Westminster.
So that in an Independent Scotland the Conservative vote for Holyrood could do very well, increase and become the opposition, and even potentially the Government in time. It’s true, but that point was never made in the Referendum campaign proper, it was all socialist policies.
That mostly worked, but left the Conservatives or sympathisers, high and dry with nowhere to go except “NO”.
As you say, unfortunaely there were no Conservative spokespeople for YES.
FIRST I am a Kiwi (New Zealander) and we just finished our national elections.
I think Scotland should have voted YES!!!
IF YES – In my opinion things would be worse economically and pretty hard. Also Great Britain is great only because of every part, including Scotland.
BUT Scottish folk will never be ‘socially free and independent’ without being fully free and independent. Should this ‘social well being’ have more weight than physical/monetary well being?
YES I think so but also add that economically it is a pretty daft thing to do ….. so!?
Lesley-Anne
Thanks for that post. I’m so glad lots of other people see the vote for what it was.. a complete and utter shambles!!
Just a wee word on referendums, in 2008 the Irish government held a referendum on ratifying the Lisbon Treaty, it was rejected by the people of Ireland. The Irish government renegotiated certain terms of the agreement and held another referendum the next year and it passed overwhelmingly.
They didn’t have any qualms about holding two referendums on the same subject only a year apart. Just saying.
Can the Scottish Government not call on some body to investigate and have a re-vote?
Surely they must have enough power to at least get it looked into?
Just read a tweet from the Labour camp that a vote for the SNP would mean 5 more years of Tory rule.. Now they get it!
If you feel frustrated, and are ‘represented’ by a Labour MP, and want to do something positive without even leaving your chair, please use writetothem.com to inform him/her that you intend to campaign vigorously for whichever candidate has the best chance of unseating him/her in the General Election.
They probably won’t reply (as mine hasn’t, yet) but they’ll get the message all the same.
Scottish Labour? Ye’re deid.
So enjoy yer wee jolly in Manchester: Johann, Anas, Jim, Magrit, an aw the rest ay ye’s…
Ye’s aw have to come back ‘home’, right?
And ye’s don’t have any idea what awaits ye.
Aw, bless…
John H.
i’m a pensioner too, it is not about division but about understanding why.
the BT campaign used very dirty tricks and cons.
It’s been a long sombre and depressing weekend, but now the nworking week has began (it’s after midnight).
I see hope again and I’ve put a sign up in my living room flat, just like Alan Cochrane said ”use A4 paper and black pen” but not advertising No or the UK. It simply says “This is just the beginning”
I’m going to keep going. Giving up would be such a north British/”Am alright Jack” thing to do. I’m no going to give up those bairns and 4 council areas who voted Yes – the poorest in Scotland.
I joined the SNP on Friday. I’ll support our pals in the Greens/SSP/SNP too via Holyrood – we’ll figure a way around in the meantime.
Now, we move on to May and get Labour!
Stevie rightly or wrongly its down to us the people. The Scottish Government cannot be seen to be anything but magnanimous in defeat. That doesn’t mean they don’t care. It would be a media frenzy to hang draw and quarter the SNP. They would vilify them and call them sore losers. So we can do it they can’t. The important thing is getting the petitions in next weekend.
Stay calm folks,it’s all in hand.We are lucky enough to have the sharpest political operator in “Britain”on our team,look at the MSM and Westminster leaders all running around to our First Ministers tune while all we have to do is wait for their mistakes,and they’ll make them. They did it before but Scotland was betrayed by the Labour Party as it always has been,but that won’t happen with the SNP.
Let Scotlands party play the game AS knows exactly what he’s doing,even Tommy Sheridan knows what the game is, and who needs to play it,and i mean that with respect Tommy,your work has been worthy of praise from all around
Ian did you see Lamont’s nervous smile being greeted like a hero in England. She knows what’s coming back home. Douglas Alexander on TV looked like he had just seen the SNP membership!
They are going to be punished. With a tight vote at Westminster they need all their Scottish sycophants to comply. Unfortunately for them they have signed their own death warrant by saddling with the unionists.They could have played it differently and gained respect. They will never get back in at Westminster either without Scottish MPs.
Big Jock
I hear u mate.
I’ve signed every petition I could over the w’end. Just hope it has the desired effect.
Fingers crossed.
My husband was on the phone to his brother earlier and his brother told him about a conversation he had when he went to vote (Rural Perthshire village).
He arrived to vote at about quarter to 10. There were 2 staff there but no observers. One of the guys working there said that there were still well over 100 people hadn’t turned up to vote. He said that if they wanted to they could just wait till the end of the night and fill out a ballot paper on their behalf and post it in the box, there was no-one there to see what they were doing. I should add that they did say they wouldn’t dream of doing it but that theoretically they could if they wanted to.
This seems to me like a very easy way to rig the vote.
It would also explain that image of all the ballot papers coming out the box still in a neat pile.
What I was wondering is are the numbers on the ballot papers in order starting at one and working up the way? Would it be possible to use the highest numbers to locate the people in each constituency who voted last around 10pm then actually check with them in person that they actually voted or if someone else voted for them?
Do we know how many polling places had no observers? This would be the first place I would start looking.
Here’s something for you conspiracy theorists still awake.
link to scottishreferedum.blogspot.co.uk
Some of this stuff I have seen before and yes the NO table with the ballots with YES marked off is in amongst the photos. That said there is a lot of other stuff that I have neither seen or heard before. Make of this what you will but for me I’m still leaning, heavily, towards something fishy going on.
As everyone knows I am never one to shout conspiracy 😉 , but by coincidence we have a number of newspapers with, how shall I say, rather interesting front pages relating to the referendum. If you dare have a wee sneeky peek and see what you think. 😛
link to imgur.com
Mary Bruce
Yep, I still firmly believe that we may have won.
Far too many stories of dodgy dealings going on.
James 123, makes sense to me. Why not, they lied and they stole, why not explore this.
Mary there were no observers at my polling place.Braes Falkirk.
@Brian McHugh
Brian, fair comment. You are not obliged to fund anything and you shouldn’t be guilt tripped either.
There is no business case for a 24/7/365 indy TV channel or radio station or magazine. We work within our means and by the generosity of our sponsors.
Professionals are doing this for free. Me included.
link to indiegogo.com
@ Mary Bruce
The numbered ballot papers are detached from a book; I’ve only ever seen them taken off in order, though I suppose they need not be. The numbers are written down on a sheet, next to the electoral roll number of the voter. The numbers have several digits (not sure how many, maybe 7 or 8). I voted at 7.30 and the numbers on the sheet to which mine was added were in sequence, but did not start at 1. Several books could be needed for each polling station.
There is a perfectly innocent explanation for the bundled ballot papers (though of course that is not necessarily the actual reason). Postal ballots arrive at the verification in bundles of 50. This enables any ballot with a problem to be located (eg if there is no ballot paper inside, but another envelope from the same address contains two – the council officials decide whether there has been a simple voter error. I didn’t see this happen, but I think that is what was meant when it was explained to me).
After the signatures and dates of birth have been verified, the ballots are removed from the inner envelopes and opened out, then the elastic band is replaced, keeping them in the same bundle of 50 in which they arrived.
It is perfectly possible for a small number of postal votes, delivered on the day, to arrive at the count in a bundle, with an elastic band, in an otherwise empty ballot box. Non-postal votes will be loose in their box, as they were inserted by the voters.
If the major points of the union are reformed… eg the Barnett formula, then we have reasonable cause for another referendum
I completely agree that this result cannot be allowed to stand. There is far to much evidence of foul play and it’s mounting by the hour. If we are to submit to the voting system it must stand up to every scrutiny and at all times be completely transparent.
Everyone seen the mass support for Yes all over the country and the numbers just don’t add up. Why should we waste our lives pushing for another vote when it’s evident that it’s completely and utterly meaningless.
We have 6 weeks to force some action in this regard and the only outcome we can accept is a re-run overseen by impartial adjudicators with strict ballot controls and exit polls. Without this we are to be consigned to the back burner and will suffer an onslaught from WM to remove any future attempt to leave the Union.
Our last democratic option is almost upon us if we “move on” from the referendum now and that’s UDI. Can we really imagine the SNP running with UDI in their manifesto as promise #1?
It’s long past time we took our country back and giving up on the ground made already should not even be up for discussion! The results, evidence and behaviour of the establishment leaves no doubt that they arranged this realising that a significant majority of the country had 0 faith in WM politics and would be voting Yes.
Moving on should not be contemplated until we have exhausted all avenues to have this result declared illegitimate. International recognition that the count is in dispute would certainly help our chances and our best hope would then be the EU, who are, lets not forget, fully aware of the UK’s plan to leave. I think we could consider the EU as a plausable route for assistance with the UK already half way out the door and Scotland hoping to remain within it.
Stevie boy says:
Lesley-Anne
Thanks for that post. I’m so glad lots of other people see the vote for what it was.. a complete and utter shambles!!
Doffs hat Stevie. No doubt you are getting your teeth into the first link I put up in my last post as we speak. 😛
Big Jock, to be fair it would appear Joanne lammont and the new Prospective (oo member)MP for your area will do anything that will assist the “people” in you constituency. The bonfires would have been burning and the flutes getting laldy up there. Every vote counts but I think you wouldve been pissing against the wind up there. They probably sent a special train to the Loyalist bash at Independence Square on Friday to create mayhem and terror to people. Good luck to you up there, a true minority.
At the training session for polling agents which I attended, it was explained that we could keep calling in (for instance to get some idea of turnout) but could not expect to stand around actually inside the polling station for protracted periods. We were also told that the chief polling clerk was to be obeyed and not argued with!
So there won’t be observers most of the time. The unfortunate chappie from the Labour Party at one of the polling places in my area had not been issued with a pass, so he was not allowed into the polling station at all. He was very scathing about their entire campaign; their response was that “lessons will be learned” – I seem to have heard that before.
Lesley-Anne
Lol. Yeah I was indeed.
I canvassed and campaigned like everyone else and turned up at George Square and the Pacific Quay protests on a regular basis. I saw the support for the Yes movement.. and it only continued to grow.
Even the day of the poll, all my family were reading texts and emails and Facebook messages about other friends and family moving to Yes or planned to vote No but couldn’t bring themselves to do it on the day. The movement was unstoppable to me.
I say with my whole family watching the programmes in disbelief as almost every result came in with a ‘below par’ result to Yes.
Clackmannanshire was actually above Dundee as the safest Yes area.. yet No won it convincingly!!
Angus.. SNP stronghold.. yet No won it 60% / 40%!
I couldn’t believe my eyes.. I’m still certain we should have been declared as winners.
Bookie from hell, please see my earlier posting regarding the daily r. Had it with them, they are done. Hope their demise is as quick as the vow they posted to get possibly 10-15% of undecideds to vote devo somethingy. That % would have saved our Country. Bought it and had it in the house and the Sunday M when I was a child when it looked after US. Never again , last Thursday was last ever purchase of this and Mail.Arseholes and S Lab, they are the new dodo Lib Dems dead in the water too.
we’re the VOW signatures forged?
someone on Twitter saying no original document exists
I will not accept anything short of full independence to make our own democratic decisions.
And I will not wait for 2 years, let alone a generation.
‘The Vow’ was broken within 24 hours of the result. Another referendum is perfectly legitimate any time we want to hold it.
And next time we will not even wait for Westminster ‘authorisation’. Let London behave like Madrid if it wants to.
Eric Joyce, do you want to keep Defence and Foreign Affairs in Westminster’s hands?
The problem for Labour in Scotland hasn’t changed:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Patrician
My God pal.. you called that stop on, way back as well.
Well called!!!
Spot on sorry.. bloody fone!
So much stuff going these days I can’t remember if this has been posted before, apologies if it has.
link to ibtimes.com
Oops!
link to facebook.com
link to storyleak.com
Ed Milliband on the Andrew Marr show “the UK isn’t working” well that directly contradicts what he has previously been telling Scots.
Sorry if O/T but have not had time to read all the comments. I was just thinking after hearing some calls for our own newspaper that the newspaper that is read the most these days is the Metro.
It is free, is everywhere and has something for everyone, and is read at some stage by most of the population. At work it is in demand at tea breaks/lunch/ bus journey as something to fill the time. But it still does carry the Daily Mails message in its articles. It reaches nearly all classes in the population.
I know there would be funding problems, but I think its format is well worth studying by anyone who could consider setting up a new newspaper for the masses to read.
Stevie boy,
“Can the Scottish Government not call on some body to investigate and have a re-vote?
Surely they must have enough power to at least get it looked into?”
They don’t, the Scottish parliament was designed to be not much more than a talking shop.
The EU and international election observers refused to participate unless asked by Westminster.
Not a single foreign government spoke even midly in favour of an independent Scotland.
The only real power Scotland has is us, the 45%.
In my opinion, the postal vote was definitely rigged and quite possibly the personal vote.
But we would not be able to prove it – the British establishment is the universal champion of black art operations.
Our job now is to form a Yes alliance to fight the next UK election with just one manifesto item – full Scottish independence.
And we must keep the 45% fully motivated.
Just in case anyone wondered where Cameron and his cronies got there ideas from for the sudden appearance of the *ahem* NEW powers and the “VOW” last week listen to Alan Bissett here. Oh while you do check out the date he recorded this. 😉
link to tinyurl.com
Three groups lost it for us:
1. The elderly (probably 75% of them). I don’t think many were actually frightened by the scare stories or were tempted by more powers. These people are stubbornly proud of the British Empire.
2. The self interested middle classes (probably 95% of them).
3. The working classes who either couldn’t give up their loyalty to Labour or were genuinely frightened by the scare stories (probably 30% of them).
For the next independence referendum, and I want it in 2015, we should concentrate all our efforts on convincing the 3rd group. We will never convince the No voters of the 1st and 2nd groups.
Donald,
“Ed Milliband on the Andrew Marr show “the UK isn’t working” well that directly contradicts what he has previously been telling Scots.”
And Cameron’s “Broke Britain” was fully mended before the referendum, despite the National Debt having gone up.
Yet 55% of us prefer to be ruled by these liars. And they regard themselves as proud Scots. Makes me feel sick.
Guys check my post at 12.16 am please, has the link to the petition, and it only needs a few more signatures
Pointless going ahead with SNP again they will be demonized by the media.
Also a recount revote ,This will never happen.
Russel brand makes a FEW good points .
Go onto youtube ,Copy and paste below into youtube.
Westminster Fear & Media Bias Shafted Scotland: Russell Brand The Trews (E150)
How do we get this mob to vote yes? Again youtube
Scotland Says NAW Parade – September 2014 – Edinburgh Part 1
While were at it this mob with yes flags in glasgow do us no favors. Youtube
Republican Walk Second video down
Can we have a ‘YES 45 FLAG’ PLEASE? We crowd funded the ‘YES’ Scotland flag so can we do another? Let’s show the great people of Glasgow, Dundee, W. Dumbartonshire and N. Lanarkshire that we are fully behind them. Lets go for it.
Auld Rock
Pointless going ahead with SNP again they will be demonized by the media.
Also a recount re vote ,This will never happen.
Russel brand makes a FEW good points .
Go onto YouTube ,Copy and paste below into YouTube.
Westminster Fear & Media Bias Shafted Scotland: Russell Brand The Trews (E150)
How do we get this mob to vote yes? Again YouTube
Scotland Says NAW Parade – September 2014 – Edinburgh Part 1
While were at it this mob with yes flags in Glasgow do us no favors. You tube
Republican Walk Second video down
Testinggggggggggg
Stevie boy,
“Clackmannanshire was actually above Dundee as the safest Yes area.. yet No won it convincingly!!
Angus.. SNP stronghold.. yet No won it 60% / 40%!”
Excluding rigging, I think what has emerged is that many voters in SNP strongholds are in fact unionist Tories who vote SNP for their own self interest.
The good thing is so many Labour, Green and Socialist voters joined genuine nationalist SNP voters in voting Yes.
I think this 45% is a very good mix who really believe in the concept of a fair and just society in Scotland.
Remember, Yes won in Lamont, Sarwar, Curran and Baillie’s back yards as well as in the Labour heartland of N. Lanarkshire. I am very pleased with that. Dundee of course did us all proud.
To increase the 45% to 55% or more, we need to convince more Labour voters of the benefits of independence.
@Lesley-Anne – saw that Alan Bissett vid yesterday – makes the hairs on your neck stand up!
Also, good post/link on ALL the stuff re. the vote rigging. I have been dismissive of bits here and there, but signed petitions, as something to do. However, that link showing ALL the stuff taken together with the comments is freaking me out now! I used to do my Polling clerk/Officer role years ago, and it really hasn’t changed that much. The comments made are very pertinent.
Rock
I see your point mate.
My main concern is that no matter who we target or what gains we make, if WM continue to get away with fixing or rigging the vote we could reach the majority of these No voters and still get ‘beat’ by WM.
20min+ delay on posts ,Thought it was my email addy so changed to another.
Another no link piece of shit has landed.
S.McLaughlin says:
22 September, 2014 at 2:31 am
Pointless going ahead with SNP again they will be demonized by the media.
Also a recount re vote ,This will never happen.?????
Auld Rock, give your young folk the original & let them loose on the design to be added, could be inky, embroidered,spray painted,stuck on with velcro, whatever, have fun peeps, im looking for a bit of inspiration for my own, so do me proud.
We are the butterfly revolution being preyed on by ravens. As long as but of one hundred of us lives, we will not remain under the domination of the nasty.
StevieMcB,
Thanks pal, you are so right we do have so much talent in our young people and they are mostly ‘YES’ and they are gutted like all of us. I think a simple ‘SPIRIT OF 45’ worked into Saltire would be enough. Or ‘YES – 45’. lOOKING FOR COMMENT.
Auld Rock
@Stevie I was a yes voter i aint no f-ing troll.
Until we can sort this ,Its all fuc*king pointless while your at it youtube the copy and paste above into youtube.
Quite easy to dismiss folk that don’t have the same view as you ,Stop being so bloody ignorant.
Have a gander at why some people voted no, Until then stfu and do not try and accuse me of being a troll.
As i said befoe you have the internet ,google do some bloody research. .
55% Nae cocopops
@Stevie that it, You had too many shandys i take it.
If the snp came out today and said we will have another indy ref next year.
The media will have us shafted before it gets off the ground ,We have no come back apart from limited voters coming onto sites like this.
Priority is getting our own tv channel ,Half the battle there until then this is pointless.
link to alternativereel.com
Some nice quotes on here that stir the will to fight
Apologies if I duplicate , only speed read above as I have been working . I’m in the 55+ section . Following on from Vote rigging . I was very sceptical at first as there should’ve been plenty overseers at each area . Every few hours another damming piece of evidence lands on my FB .
Adding to prev posts a friend of mine now tells me he received 3 Vote cards ( he has moved 3 times in last few yerars ) Strange but true .
I have had a very skeewed view on these last few months as nearly everyone on my FB has YES declared and 80% of their friends seam to be YES . Makes postings very harmonious . I’m not particularly selective they are just a cross section of people .
Way Forward .
I wonder if we can log any feedback from No voters ?
I have quizzed a few all are Uni Graduates so nae daft budgies .
2 got their facts from TV & Press and when I debunked a few of their facts their jaws dropped .
Another educated young man again was easily corrected but stated he felt that Salmond should’ve had the currency issue settled ,and in place . Don’t shoot the messenger .
I feel its easy for us , I never even took a skwint at the WBB , but perhalps a little thought towards WHY people voted No may help .
As for Aliance or whatever is fantastic we are all so enthused , but should we try to get a view from Alex or SNP people . They may have thoughts and we could scupper them unknowingly ? Just a thought from an aul fellar who has been on this freedom desire since the 60’s as young loon .
Just read the Scotsman, Salmond “Other routes to Independence” and some of the “wonderful” comments 🙂
Anyone who followed all the ministerial posts in the online National Conversation in 2007-8 as I did will remember at least one post (possibly Bruce Crawford) about the options for a multi-question referendum, I think there were about 6 options, loosely:
1). Abolish Holyrood
2). Less powers
3). Status Quo
4). More powers
5). Devo-Max / FFA
6). Independence
The SNP and Alex Salmond were nothing if not democratic, they were prepared to put their own abolition to the vote.
Now we see Jack Straw threatening to enact no more referendums, and the Westminster parties threatening not to keep to the timetable of more powers.
Salmond resigned, but since his resignation is out in the open, his Government can not be held to account for anything he says. He has 8 weeks until the SNP Conference to be, effectively, an out of control First Minister if he wants, and to say anything he likes with no accountability to the Government of his party – probably exactly what Scotland (and future Independence) needs right now – including the NO voters. He has an unusual access to the media for anything he wants to say.
Salmond is shooting across the bows of Westminster, he is loaded for bear, and, perhaps, we ain’t seen nothing yet!
unfortunately there were no Conservative spokespeople for YES.
Brian Soutar made some good points on one of the debate shows. Jim McColl also. The Business for Scotland guys were excellent when seen on TV.
They aren’t Tory, but the basic principle was about a business friendly environment and higher public spending going hand in hand.
And that a cut in business tax to attract growth, is a good thing if it actually results in MORE taxes overall, along with more jobs.
I know we had to attract the Labour vote, but sometimes it seemed a bit too heavy handed and one sided.
The ironic thing is that higher rate taxpayers who voted No, scared of tax rises, are MORE likely to end up paying higher taxes under devolution alone – if a Holyrood Parliament takes up the proposed power to raise income tax.
Just getting ready for the next time … real soon now.
The low life Labour/Unionists have stolen Independence from Scotland again. The Unionist ("Tractor" - Ed)s to Scotland must be finished off once and for all. The sinners will reap what they sow. Greedy, jealous, murdering, bare faced liars.
‘Stay with us, we need you’
Now the Unionists are trying to ban Scottish MP’s from Westmnster, where they have little say anyway. The 25% who changed their vote to No, the cowards, will reap what they sow. Total betrayal from Westminster. Scottish finances totally wasted once again.
Disappointment is now changing to total anger
Why people voted No?
They are stupid cowards.
Hi Dad’s Army, I think you are right about Alex Salmond!
I was interviewed by someone from Wales on the 19th, outside our Parliament, minutes after a tear stained young lad announced that AS had just resigned. That’s when my tears finally came. Minutes later, having heard more details, when asked for my reaction, I was able to answer that at first I was devastated but when I learned that Mr Salmond was not leaving politics I knew that from that moment Westminster had better beware. Alex has a plan!
Whatever happens next decade of austerity teamGB, NO voters have got to stop taking all that Holyrood has won. England thinks they give scrounger Scots £1600 per head more than they get. So now its time for the NO to live exactly like their UKOK countrymen and women.
It would an appalling indictment of SNP Scots.gov if the austerity UK is dumped on the worst off in Scotland. NO voted for no change because if it works why risk it but change is now coming hard and fast.
The wife and I went out for a wee run to the Kelpies, queues too long to get in so went off to Stirling, and the sense of being in an occupied country was quite sinister, cars flying Union flags felt like we were in occupied France in 1941, very disturbing.
, cars flying Union flags felt like we were in occupied France in 1941, very disturbing
You want to try being a sweatie in England in now. English people either think they own Scotland and AlicSamin tried to steal what they own and thats not a good thing to say you voted for out loud to anyone in England.
English nationalism, British nationalism are the same thing but they like to hear you say you voted YES with your heart and NO with your head.
Incurable romantics Britnats, all of us under a giant union jack because they have paid for it too.
link to theguardian.com First Monday in new federal devo max UKOK and loyal Scotland almost gone from front page. Nothing changes.
The Westminster low lives are now ‘trying’ to give Scotland ‘some’ control over ‘some’ taxes/welfare, but not over spending. No taxation without representation.
They are at it again. Stealing from Scotland. Dirty, greedy lying sinners.
Good morning all.
The overnight comments about voter blocks miss a glaring thing. Ashcroft says the top reason for voting Yes was that Scottish decisions should be made in Scotland. That is a universally obvious truth.
95% of previously conservative and 14% of previously SNP voters voted no. At Holyrood in 2011 those two groups of voters cast 300k votes. Labour polled 630k in total at that election yet only about a third of those 630 voted Yes. We targeted the wrong group.
The campaign specifically demonised Tories. I would suggest that was perhaps less wise than it first appeared.
The new future strategy has to include ALL of our people. I voted Yes because I believe that Scots people should make decisions here about what happens here. So it appears did 70% of the electorate.
I am now actively researching what happened in Ireland. How did they achieve freedom? And I learned the origin of the word boycott last night for starters. There are other places too I want to learn about.
I don’t think replacing Tories with Grays is a clever strategy. All our communities have to see the obviousness of Yes for next time.
@Heedtracker Yes and when we get our Yes Scotland media up and running we need to tell the rUK exactly what Scotland does give them. I am sick to the back teeth of that England subsidises us lie. It has done a lot of damage this past 300 years time to counter it.
link to bbc.co.uk The fight to get Johann Lamont as First Minister begins. Be afraid?
OK – I know all about the five/six stages of grief, of working through it and all that shit.
I know all about don’t get mad – get even; which has always struck me as the better way of handling disappointment.
We can moan all we like about England’s disputed third goal in the 1966 World Cup final – the ref gave it and he’s the sole judge of fact.
I have always liked the good, common-sense of Willie-John McBride’s comment as some of his victorious 1974 British Lions left the post-game party on the Sunday morning after their series-clinching Third Test win in South Africa – to watch the game being replayed on South African TV.
“Ignore that lads, it’s history”, counseled the captain.
Well, today, on the Monday after the Thursday before, we MUST ignore post-mortems on the Referendum. It’s over – we lost; so,how do we make sure we win the next time?
There has been more than a few good suggestions on here. It is already clear, we were conned yet again. The tri-party consensus that we are Better Together is already unravelling before us.
We organise, quietly and discreetly; we, the 45 become the shock troops of the next Independence effort. We stop blaming the non-aligned amongst the 55 who preferred their scary vision and lies to our hope.
Then, next-time, we get it right.
Yes, we learn from the past, but, the past is another country.
The Unionists will fuck-u, it’s what they do. This is our strength, but only if we are ready for them.
link to 78.110.165.228
or street brawls?
link to theguardian.com
Scottish finances headed for London subsidises tax evasion in The City of London. Scottish taxes are skimmed off to subsidise the wealthy in London while the vulnerable are sanctioned and walking to food banks.
Scotland needs control over spending. To get the priorities right. No Trident, a tax on ‘loss leading’ alcohol, Scottish Defence based in Scotland. Investment (EU grants) in Renewables. There will be no need to put up taxes if Scotland controls it’s spending priorities, That’s the point of Independence. Invest in the economy make it grow. Better infrastructure, transport links – rather than bombing other countries infrastructure to bits. Investment in NHS/Education. Top priorities.
Pay £20 a week tax rather than £25 a week for limited, expensive health care. A proper progressive tax system. An inheritance land tax on non productive land. Reap what you sow. Eliminate poverty. An accountable Government.
Let’s not forget Michele Monde OBE who is today advertising an entrepeneur festival in England. Her header “Follow your dream, never ever give up, you will always find a way.” Is she staying in Sotland now?
Blow for Salmond as Labour announces freeze on child benefit. Better Together.
The Guardian is sickening.
The only paper of editorial independence, despite the control of the British state.
“You pay 18.9% of your gross salary/wage into the pension system and you employer pays the same. If your salary goes up or down you still pay the 18.9%.”
There is upper limit of 69.9K Euro on Social Security contributions. Are you sure its 18.9 from both employee and employer ? I’m pretty sure it was 50% each of the 18.9%.
Sorry for typo, meant Mone, Mone, Mone. 🙂 Miss Mone is added to boycott list along with a few others of her ilk.
Just watching Sny news 24 and eamon holmes was takin the mick mimicking ed balls on split screen before cutting him short, now lets see how the media puts the boot into labour and discredits everything they say although with a minimum wage of £8 by 2020 I think they,re doing that themselves,Cant wait till they start on darling and co lets see how he blinks through that.
Michelle Mone has an apartment in London. A new company, was the other one dissolved on divorce? It was an enterprise with former husband. (who seemed to do all the work, including child rearing.)
Mone was bailed out on more than one occasion by Hunter and others. For favours? Cheap publicity.
link to shetnews.co.uk Carmicheal lost a lot of weight over the weekend and this astonishihg liar says
ALISTAIR Carmichael, the secretary of state for Scotland and northern isles MP, has said Thursday’s independence referendum has put the UK on the road to becoming a federal state within the next few years.
Shetland voted for NO change except devo for Shetland, from Scotland. Give it to them.
link to theguardian.com
What’s Australia like?
Know anyone who voted “no” out of loyalty to labour? Show them this. Print out, copy, circulate, share online.
link to telegraph.co.uk
While I agree with Nigerian Pirate on voting for the SNP at the general election so as not to split the vote, to maximise the chance of No voters also voting SNP we need to employ tactics.
We should forget talk of another referendum until we are in a position of power and certainly until after next May’s election.
I couldn’t think straight for the past few days so haven’t really posted for fear of emotion overriding reason, but here’s my view for what its worth.
Yes, there were dirty dealings within the referendum, but long before polling day the fix was in. As soon as it was discovered that HMG were palpably not staying out of our ‘Scottish discussion’, foul could have and should have been cried. As soon as it was discovered that overseas powers had been lobbied for support by HMG, foul should have been cried. As soon as it was blatantly obvious that our public broadcaster and indeed the entire UK media were singing from the same BT hymn book, foul should have been cried and of course as soon as evidence of collusion between the civil service, the treasury and BT were uncovered or even suspected, wait for it… foul should have been cried.
In the face of all of that we still achieved 45% on the day. But yes the referendum ‘fix’ was in many times over.
You want to beat the system? Then you make a system of your own.
I think three things need to happen to get that level playing field.
Firstly the media: Hopelessly politically and corporately compromised. There will never be a fair hearing from that quarter. Options? Only one. Abandon traditional media sources and create our own cross platform media. Withholding licence fee to old aunty is one option of protest, but its effects will be limited and for some who aren’t of the more extrovert or pro active nature, stressful and painful. Several million people aren’t going to stop paying their licence fee however much they agree with the stance, but another option for making protest known for those who can’t or won’t take that course is viewing figures. If there’s one thing that gets to the heart of any broadcaster other than the licence fee its watching their viewing figures travel elsewhere. For those who wish to retain their goggle box but still feel the need to protest, go to any channels out there but the BEEB or ITV and its franchises. Making their viewing figures drop off a cliff will focus attention. Ditto for the dead tree, simply stop buying the damn titles and vote with your wallet.
Secondly ‘British’ Labour: They sold their souls and ours for the sake of self interest. They GO! No ifs buts or maybes. There was a chance of revitalising them and their core values in an independent Scotland. They made their choice – Party, Power and Establishment. Their actions throughout the campaign were dangerous, harmful, reckless and indiscriminate. They proved without a shadow of a doubt that care for welfare of the public and social cohesion didn’t enter their tiny minds once in their dash to preserve their lifestyles. They are done and dead to the people.
There are truly socialist parties and movements out there. If you’re a Labour voter forget the name and look for the values and ethics, but shift your vote from those who have betrayed everything they ever stood for. In the short term (IMO), Scotland’s best defence is to fill Holyrood and Westminster’s contingent with members who stand for the Scottish electorate and preferably independence. Lose Labour and the Liberals (tories, job already done).
Lastly YES Scotland. Again I’d like to see the SNP especially separate itself from the idea of being seen as just a movement for independence. They need to govern and govern well, to install continued confidence in our parliament and government. The need to allow YES Scotland where all parties and no parties meet to continue the independence movement. As a movement YES Scotland do things and go places where a party of government can’t. They can allow freedom of thought and expression which parliamentary code shackles or downright prohibits. In short parties of government should govern and movements should move the people.
Salmond, now released from his statesman role, says there are other ways to secure self-governance. Since there is no clause in the Treaty Scotland can tear it up if it’s government has been given a mandate.
Salmond tried the handshake democratic route with England only to see how brutally they play ‘fair,’ hence anything goes now.
The downside is, gunboats around North Sea oil rigs if we dare do anything with Westminster permission.
@heedtracker says: 22 September, 2014 at 7:30 am,:
“English people either think they own Scotland and AlicSamin tried to steal what they own and thats not a good thing to say you voted for out loud to anyone in England.”
What do you mean, “Think they own Scotland”, heedtracker?
The cold, hard truth is that they do indeed own Scotland.
They also own Wales and N. Ireland and as long as Westminster remains the nominal United Kingdom Parliament and the de facto parliament of the country of England they will continue to do so. Face the truth, heedtracker, when Westminster realigned the legally bipartite United Kingdom along the lines of four separate countries and gave only three of them a devolved parliament but retained Westminster as the non-devolved de facto Parliament of England those 533 English Members put on two hats.
Every United Kingdom MP at Westminster from an English constituency is now also an, (unelected as such), Member of the de facto Parliament of the Country of England. It is not reasonable to expect they can separate these two functions. They began shouting about, “The West Lothian Question”, right from the start of the three underling devolved parliaments while England continued lording it over all the devolved countries parliaments.
The English resent the Scots, Welsh and N. Irish interfering in, “Their Westminster Parliament of the country of England”, but are not willing for England to also become a Devolved Power with an English Country Parliament with devolved powers from the federal, “United Kingdom Parliament of Westminster”.
There can only be two possible solutions to this fundamentally flawed and stupid concept made to assure the country of England would own the rest of the United Kingdom’s four countries.
One – Total disuniting of the original two partner United Kingdom with the Kingdom of Scotland going her own way. The former three country Kingdom of England can then make her own arrangements for her three country Kingdom of England..
Two – Westminster becoming a true Federal Parliament with the four devolved countries each with their own parliament. This would probably need the Country of England to regionalism under a sub-federal system but would soon revert to a domination of the federation by the largest country – England.
There is no way, without never-ending resentment, for Westminster to continue as a de facto parliament of the country of England. Now be honest , can you see any signs of the Westminster Parliamentarians being willing to give up being the de facto Parliament of England ruling only three subservient devolved parliaments? If you can you have clearer vision than I have.
You’ll all be glad to know I’m not wearing La Mone’s products today; not even on Friday nights from now on…
Keith
eh there’s a wee smiley thingy in there folks, honest
POSTAL VOTERS in their hundreds of thousands were well warned about the likelihood of vote rigging but some on these pages Boasted about deploying their Postal vote despite being healthy and fit enough to get to the Polling Station.
ALL – being strangely shy – since last Thursday.?
Apparently, the Postal Vote Result (unsurprisingly) broke down at = NO @ 70 PER CENT
YES @ 30 PER CENT.
After weeks of dire warnings of the dangers of RIGGING of Postal Votes – who would have thunk that the postal vote result could be so Clear.?
“THEY” LOST the Postal Vote via their own sheer stupidity.
Meanwhile, the Electoral Commission slinks into the undergrowth – UNTIL next May.
So if Shetland is devolved from Scotland Heedtracker , would that mean they have a 12 mile sea border?
And would that mean that they would be disinherited from the Clare field?
Now that we are stuck with Trident and radio active leaks on the Firth of Clyde , with the BBBC , STV ,the Record , the Herald ( don’t tell me it was promoting devo max all the time and it will fight for those vows by the other political liars cause I ain’t buying it – literally!)and the ever dwindling Scotsman and other hideous publications , and I am consumed by grief and rage .tell me how I deal with the folk I know who voted NO.
How do I forgive the damage they have already done to the country in which we live?
To increase the 45% to 55% or more, we need to convince more Labour voters of the benefits of independence.
They will soon see the light, when the tories win their landslide GE in 2015.
Make no mistake – it’s coming:
@ Robert Peffers, yes to all that but personally I think we have to stand back, way back and look at the big picture. There are probably 60 million English people so ofcourse this extremely nationalistic rule Britannia country dominate everything and they are aided/abetted by Scots in Scotland.
So now because the majority have voted Naw thanks, independence should be put to one side and everything we do should focus on federalist UK. The majority of Scotland saw a Scotland running Scotland as too risky. Ofcourse our disgrace of a media led by the BBC have hammered it in for the last 50 years but they won and nothing can change that.
They only way Scotland will become an independent country is when the majority don’t fear it. It looks like THE VOW is just another unionist fraud or worse a Westminster weapon in their own struggles but even so, federal Scotland for a generation then who knows.
Would you believe it?
Labour Conference commits to business rate cuts.
In Scotland helicopters are falling from the sky, killing Oil workers, because of lack of health & safety rules. Westminster gets away with murder. Robert Goodwill, UK transport minister responsible, owns an estate in Yorkshire and has a burial business.
Imagine helicopters falling from the sky in the City of London. BP are the worst managed business in economic history.
The postal votes could reflect the elderly voters who voted No or corruption.
25% of YES changed to No because of the ‘promises’ intervention. They going to be disappointed but better prepared next time.
Alex Salmond can now speak out. He couldn’t as FM – protocol. Alex Salmond for President.
John Swinney was shaking hands, in thanks for the new members.
muttley79 says:
21 September, 2014 at 8:53 pm
I think it might help if we admitted and acknowledged that there are many No voters who are entrenched in their political views in regards Britain, Scotland, and independence.
I read or heard that the majority of No voters made up their minds at least a year ago, and simply were not in the mood to change their views. From this we should recognise that many Scottish voters found the referendum debate and general experience to be a threat to them personally, for various reasons. We were not able to reach these people. They effectively never really engaged with the debate.
The Yes campaign has many positives to take from 2011 to the present. However, it really pains me to say it but the No campaign were right when they said the silent majority supported them and the Union. The challenge now is to try and think of ways to win some of them over to independence, whether in the short, medium or long term. Independence supporters were excited and stimulated by the debate, and the opportunities of independence. But the majority probably felt the exact opposite. I don’t know how we change this. We must find a way though.
Probably the most sensible post on here. There are huge numbers of quiet NO voters (mostly aged 50+). The conservative right of Scotland (tories, new Labour, Lib Dems tactical SNP voters) all united to win, 90% of them voted NO. The radical left of Scotland was split by confusion (many voting NO), mainly thanks to the behaviour of the Labour party, who supported Westminster. Well over 50% still voted YES, but alas it was not enough on the day.
Make no mistake, NO could not have won in Scotland without the Labour party.
@ Kenny Campbell
“You pay 18.9% of your gross salary/wage into the pension system and you employer pays the same. If your salary goes up or down you still pay the 18.9%.”
There is upper limit of 69.9K Euro on Social Security contributions. Are you sure its 18.9 from both employee and employer ? I’m pretty sure it was 50% each of the 18.9%.
Your right, I should have worded it better. (To tired and late at night)
18,9% is the Rentenbeitrag (Pension Contribution).
The employee pays 50% and the employer pays the the other 50%. The contribution is deducted from your gross salary/wage.
There are minimum and maximum limitations but the very large majority of people operate within this range.
For self employed people this doesn’t apply but you can voluntary pay into the system for a pension.
Hope that sonds better.
I had a postal vote and there is too much detail to forge quickly, like your signature on mass and authentically. You need to tear open two envelopes which is fair enough but its time consuming and means tampering with one envelope with your signature with the ballot inside.
I posted my vote to Aberdeen City council house days before and the overriding impression was they thought little of the ballot box available, by the main stairs on the ground like a bin. But this is what our council thought of the whole referendum and no wonder, they had so much to lose personally and politically.
The really dodgy issue is the possible fact that 800,000 postal votes were sent to England to be checked for some technical reason. An SNP MSP tweeted about it and if that did happen, we’re screwed.
DAVID CAMERON’S LATEST SONG
Now I know, they meant just what they said,
Help me, help me, help me get this horse’s head out of my bed.
I lied to them once, I lied to them twice,
I won’t get away with it again – at least not in this life.
The ground is shifting, the fall out from the referendum seems to be that the genuine and vibrant Yes grass roots movement wants to continue the fight. The number of new members that all the Yes parties are getting is remarkable. If it continues at this rate this new membership will exceed the current membership of all the No parties.
No may have won the referendum but they won in such a way as to lose the affection and support of the rank and file of their supporters. We need to keep the head and reach out to those who voted No because they were enticed by the promises and frightened by the threats. They may have voted No but a lot of them have aching hearts over it. Their natural home is with us not the No side, we have to make sure the door is open to them. Let us reserve the harsh words for those that framed the threats and scares and win back both the hearts and minds of those who scales have fallen from their eyes.
We need to use sites like this to do that and put the recriminations towards ordinary voters aside. It will achieve nothing and may well alienate those who want to return to the fold of the SNP, Greens and SSP. We also need to encourage those within Labour that are uneasy with the direction of the Miliband/Balls continuation of Tory Lite policies to consider re-taking the Labour from within.
The next couple of years of politics in Scotland and the UK are going to be busy and turbulent.
Joyce is typical of the neo-con apologists within the British Labour Party in Scotland.
They have just handed the City of London elite everything they need on a plate to keep screwing the working class of Britain, and everywhere else their toxic wars and economic colonialism takes them for the next hundred years.
They have damned us to eternal austerity for what? Not just because they are looking after their own big houses and fat wallets but because they are The Neo-cons.
Join a Yes Aligned party or organisation near you today and lets help make `The British Labour Party in Scotland` history.
Can we please get a comprehensive list of companies we should avoid – large and small. We need to know where and what to buy from whom and in all areas – retail, services, building etc
Let me give you an example. On the front page of the Herald, on referendum day, a builders company called Adam Scotland placed an ad with a large “NO” in blue and white incorporated into the message:
“No hassle when you purchase a new property with the 10 year NHBC warranty”
A cursory glance at the paper and you would have seen the paper’s headline of
“Scotland’s Day of Reckoning”
And underneath a prominent
“NO”
We need to boycott such companies! They cannot be allowed to steal our children’s future and get away with it!
Wee wifie on morning call about AS saying the Scots were tricked. “That’s a stupid thing to say. We’re gullible but we’ve no been tricked”.
David Mundell twisting in the wind, re whether non delivery of the vow is a resignation issue. 5 mins of his verbal diarrhoea and we can safely say the answer to that question will be ‘no’.
I hear Labour has gained 17 new members since Friday. So, 17 people want a freeze on child benefit. Weird.
I’m not sure about other posh areas, but in parts of Aberdeen, the well-to-do NO voters were pulling out all the stops to maximise their vote. Bringing in sick relatives out of bed, wheeling in ancient parents to vote. And a few sneaky little tricks like holding cards always with a finger on the NO box when explaining to people how to vote.
90% turn outs are amazing – yep, you’ve got to hand it to them. RIC did a great job getting 70% of voters from poorer areas out, but the posh NO’s certainly showed how to do it. Those vicious old tory ladies can be quite frightening when they are on the case. A dying breed, but still enough of them still around to do some damage, apparently.
Just tried to phone the SNP at this time 09.40, and got a recorded message saying there is no-one to take my call opening times are from 9am to 5pm.
I only wanted to check if they had received my membership fee as I had trouble yesterday.
A bit concerning.
Thanks Heraldnomore – meanwhile another wee bit O/T – Labour to ask public sector to monitor employees’ social background. link to gu.com
I live in London, and I joined the SNP today. Due to family circumstances, I need to stay down here, but am going to do all I can. If anyone has any ideas on how I can vote in the next elections, then either post them on here or email me on chrisbaxter1976@hotmail.co.uk – of course, they can’t be illegal…
i just wonder how many yes pledges would there be now?
14,000 new members for SNP
17 new members for Red Tories
Media Headline .
`Surge in Vote for Unionist Parties `
Greeanach
I hear Labour has gained 17 new members since Friday. So, 17 people want a freeze on child benefit. Weird.
I wonder what the net is, though, because they’ve certainly lost loads!
BBC news this morning:
Labour is to reach out to supporters who voted for independence in last week’s referendum, the party has said.
Shadow Scottish secretary Margaret Curran said senior party figures would meet Labour voters who backed independence in last week’s referendum.
She told the BBC that many Labour supporters voted “Yes” for “understandable reasons”.
The SNP, Scottish Greens and Scottish Socialist Party say they have recruited many former Labour members.
Three of the four local authorities where a majority of people voted “Yes” were Labour controlled.
The audasity of these people is beyond belief..
The most likely scenario is devo not much if anything, but boosted to the moon by BBC. Then UK general election with UKIP, a hot war in the middle east probably and an EU referendum which could well see Scotland region completely fcuked. Reap what you sow.
Huge swathes of England are so right wing, anti immigration and anti EU, they’re unrecognisable to anyone but UKIPsters.
Dorothy Devine
That is correct. In the event of Shetland being separate from Scotland they would be considered an “enclave” in Scottish waters. Entitled to a twelve mile limit by international law.
This is just like the Channel Islands off the coast of France, which are British but only have a twelve mile limit.
There are no oil fields within the Shetland twelve mile limit.
Does anyone know if there is any way to find how individual towns voted as opposed to council areas. I’ve heard from hat Inverness, Kirkcaldy and Paisley voted Yes, but don’t know where the figures came from. Thanks.
Those who think SLAB scab politicians may have LOST Glasgow need a reminder of recent history ;
A few years ago SNP`s John Mason WON the By-election in the Glasgow East Constituency where the average Male Lifespan was/is a sickening 54 years.
He was their short candle of conscience.
At the subsequent WM General Election John Mason LOST to one MARGARET CURRAN, the SLAB scab Shadow Sec of State for Scotland.
AFTER OWNING Glasgow East for over 80 years SLAB was MERELY INTERRUPTED for a few months by the election of John Mason as their part time MP.
Anyone who thinks SLAB has lost Glasgow need to wake up and smell the Rigging.
Now Curran wants to host a “PEACE and RECONCILIATION CONF.” – after Robbing us of our Indy Ref.?
I will not be voting for any of the muppets that turn-up for that Travesty.
James
I did read that the SNP office is both delighted and utterly overwhelmed by the number of applications it has to process. I think contacting them might prove tricky as they are trying to clear the forms they have received. I haven’t joined yet, I thought I might give them a couple of days to find their feet.
link to thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net
Not letting me post again.
Some general thoughts at the link above
Greananach
There is a map doing the rounds on Facebook that shows the areas that voted Yes and the areas that voted No (by ward I think). It makes for an interesting picture. A large swathe of Scotland voted Yes (unsurprisingly as 45% is a hefty chunk of the electorate)
This week I shall be mostly telling smug-faced No Voters that this is only the start and I am neither going to ‘shut up’ or ‘go back to the kitchen’.
I have tried it already and I am amused by how many of their responses use the F word.
Anyway, has anyone heard Jackie Bailie sing yet?
link to indiegogo.com
Jackie Bailie can’t sing. She can only lie.
I see the separatists are still flapping their gums here.
Still angry and still not willing to accept the popular vote to remain in the union.
The more I think about what you guys could have done to this country, the more relieved I am that your silly ideas did not come to fruition.
As the sun shone over the weekend, the feeling of relief amongst the majority of Scots was palpable. After months/years of having this insecure feeling constantly gnawing in the background about what will happen if we jump into the abyss with that clueless overweight numpty Salmond, we just let out a big pheeeeeew.
You lot and your silly ideas have been defeated. Scotland will not be independent. By the time you managed to trigger another referendum in 25 years, the oil reserves will be depleted and many of the 16 year old young activists will be married with kids and working. THEY will become the new NO’s who will understand the consequences of an independent Scotland.
Well done the 55.
We should make badges – “The 55 who saved Scotland”
I finally managed to change my sour face to a slight grin yesterday thanks to Ruth Davidson having the cheek to jump on the “overwhelmed server” bandwagon ( SNP, Greens, SSP)regards new interest in joining political parties.
I seriously doubt thousands of people were attempting to join the Scottish Tories over the weekend, unless it was Labour members / officials.
The sight of Jola, Anas ( pretending someone knew who he was!) and a girning Mags Curran getting of that bus was enough to recharge my resolve. If we cant get independence, at least lets get a Scotland Independent of New Labour.
Aye-Scotland!
Greanach, the City of InverYESs lived up to its new name. Cant give you the figure at the moment as we have still to collate the box sampling results,(sitting on someones flashdrive at the moment). And Lochaber was absolutely fantastic.
I think the problem with Scotland is it doesn’t have enough Scot’s, and I’m part of the problem, having been removed as a boy by well intentioned parent’s to grow up in Australia. My removal broke a continuous link with my ancestry and the ground we walked on from the beginning.
@Greannach
I haven’t seen a full list but do know that in Dundee, for example, RIC locally have produced figures for the areas they were canvassing in, so it seems at this stage you may be best contacting local Yes/RIC etc groups for the areas you’re curious about.
And fyi here the RIC Dundee Yes figures, bearing in mind the highest Yes vote in Glasgow was Maryhill at 57%, very proud of RIC and the voters in these areas of the city. I only hope they can be encouraged to stay engaged despite the No vote.
Happyhillock 75%, Kirkton 72%, Fintry 72%, Charleston 70%, Dryburgh 70% and Menzieshill 60%.
Meanwhile in parts of the SNP area of Dundee East it was more like 70% No, replicated in other SNP areas, one wonders what happened there.
They just can’t stop themselves trying to personalise the issue, can they? They show their true colours when doing so. Nasty, spiteful, self-interested people who have no respect for their country. And they are very, very bad winners.
But it is only one vote they have won. The blinkers are off, though. And they will not be put back on.
I would like to write a letter to Lloyds Bank to ask them to confirm that they won’t be moving their HQ to London. Does anyone have the current address of their HQ?
Tony
Yeah you’re right.
Because if bloody stupid short sighted people like you, in 25 years out oil reserves will have been depleted and instead of being used to help everyone in society they will be squandered away again.
You have just made the perfect case for why stupid people voted No!
What an arsehole!!!
Alan and Albalha – Thanks very much. Delighted to hear about Lochaber! I agree that RIC were fantastic, and those results from Dundee are tremendous.
I’m not sad about the fact that No won, but what they had to do to get that win.
Gordon Brown – the man who saved Cameron’s job and lost his Labour party the chance of government in the foreseeable future, which is a good thing if the freeze of child benefit is indicative of how they’re planning to punish the poor.
@Tony
Strangely enough I can understand how you feel, having talked to a lot of NO voters before the referendum. This referendum took the support for Independence from 25-28% to 45%.
To get Independence we’d need a lot of the 55% including you, to feel happy with the idea of Independence and vote YES next time. Which means we need to know why you voted NO.
The alleged behaviour of officials at some of the counts, e.g. Renfrewshire and Dundee, shows that it will not be enough just to remove Labour from Westminster and Holyrood, we need to remove them from local councils as well, and not just the councillors but the officials. The Returning Officers are generally the Local Authority Chief Executives. It would be interesting to know their political allegiances.
Silly ideas Tony? you mean the one about eradicating poverty in one of the worlds richest countries?, or removing trident from our waters?, or setting up an oil fund to see us through the tough times with the billions of barrels still to be extracted?.
Defeated on Thursday we may have been but the 45% are not going away. Watch over the next few years as it grows to 46,48,50% & ultimately gets independence over the line.
Tony
As trolls go you are definitely at the shallow end of the gene pool – so I’m not going to bother.
🙂
Tony celebrating duped, cowardice, short sightedness, and lack of faith in your country is a good thing. Ok, let’s celebrate the 55 are paedo lovers if you insist.
davidb at 7:48 am
I don’t think replacing Tories with Grays is a clever strategy.
Great post; I agree. Tories are entitled to be represented in an iScotland; they have something to say even if you don’t agree with it, and there are still a lot of them.
And we should be more sympathetic to the reasons for the 65+ year olds voting No; they were scared shitless by a compliant media reporting utter shite.
On the question of Returning officers, who are the Chief Executives, officially their contract is politically restricted, which means you are not allowed to be a party member. It would be naive however, to think they are not subtlety political/protectionist. I worked 30 years in local govt. at senior level, and worked under the Chief Exec at Renfrew, strangely, he is newly appointed to Dundee,moving in Nov.
Meanwhile in parts of the SNP area of Dundee East it was more like 70% No, replicated in other SNP areas, one wonders what happened there.
Broughty Ferry happened, and all the wanabee areas who think getting a DD5 postcode means that they are no longer schemies.
From a Douglas-born, Ferry-bred schemie.
@ Scott,
I wonder if those 17 new members of the Red Tories know they applied for membership?
Re naming of the Rainbow Alliance of yes like minded parties, why not YesGeneration that the youngsters came under, because all the 1.6 million that Voted yes are that generation.
@HandandShrimp – YES mate I got through eventually and was told 17,000 newbies, and they were overwhelmed. He will check for me, to see if my membership yesterday went through. I’ll wait for that. If I joined goodo if it didn’t go through I’ll will join.
Just heard from the daughter that her mum, in her 90s and longtime SNP member has voted NO for fear of her pension.
I recon that the 50K secret poll that WM commissioned highlighted this vulnerability.
Really despicable Gordo!!!
@yesindyref says:
22 September, 2014 at 10:43 am
Strangely enough I can understand how you feel, having talked to a lot of NO voters before the referendum. This referendum took the support for Independence from 25-28% to 45%.
To get Independence we’d need a lot of the 55% including you, to feel happy with the idea of Independence and vote YES next time. Which means we need to know why you voted NO.
—
Security, economy, being anti-nationalist, feelings of being British (patriotism), family & friends in England. Together we stand, divided we fall. I don’t want to be a smaller, more insignificant country in today’s world.
I can’t wrap my head around left wing nationalists.
I also have a very bad feeling that an independent Scotland run by leftists/socialist-types would have a foreign policy based on appeasing Islamists with anti-American/anti-Israeli rhetoric, gradually becoming a bit of a mouthy international pariah supporting every group in the world vying for ‘independence’.
StevieB says:
22 September, 2014 at 11:11 am
Silly ideas Tony? you mean the one about eradicating poverty in one of the worlds richest countries?, or removing trident from our waters?, or setting up an oil fund to see us through the tough times with the billions of barrels still to be extracted?.
—
You can’t “eradicate poverty”. That’s a left wing 6th form student ideology, not reality.
Humanity has tried “eradicating poverty” by all means, including communism, socialism and capitalism.
It won’t happen because poverty is part of humanity. It is brought on by social factors that governments are unable to control.
As for Trident, good for jobs. I want a nuclear deterrent.
An Oil-based economy is a nonsense. A panic-inducing, fluctuating market. I don’t want to hitch my business and livelihood to that.
The most laughable thing about the Yes campaign? – The Green party supporting them for an Oil-based economy with more drilling in mine. You couldn’t make it up.
Big Jock
“Chic can I suggest the SNP go into Westminster 2015 on an independence ticket. The Westminster government is sovereign. A majority SNP in Westminster for Scotland does not need a mandate. We could hold a legal referendum. Holyrood needs permission.”
Dunno is the answer. Don’t know if a majority of the vote never mind a majority of the MPs would be accepted as a mandate, excuse being they are subset of a much bigger legislature.
Yeah I know, when a majority of MSPs looked possible but not for WM you heard “It would have to be a majority of Scottish MPs at WM”.
But that’s subject to the same credence as when they used to say “You don’t need a referendum, every election is a referendum. If you want independence vote for the SNP”. We all knew that would instantly change to “you need a referendum” the minute the SNP won the ‘impossible’ majority.
Also not sure if reality will have bitten enough by then for the electorate to go for an indy electoral mandated SNP/others.
There may be interesting legalities that could be exploited with a majority for indy in the Scottish MPs but I don’t know much about that I’m afraid.
The big choice poor Nicola(probably) is going to have to make for Holyrood is whether to go for it with a potentially bad consequence for the SNP in 2016 but a reasonable chance of successful indy in 2020.
Or if they succeed in 2016 earlier indy.
Or to take the easy big success in 2016 followed by oblivion in 2020.
The other factor is that if DC disappears and is replaced by any combination of lunatics, May/Farage, Osborne/Farage or Johnson/Farage then god knows what they would be capable of.
But almost certainly those unholy alliances would try to say you can neither have a referendum nor can you achieve self determination electorally. And where would that lead?
Ditto(ish) for Miliband who is equally strange but in an unpredictable way.
UDI is far from ideal, for example asset division debateable, EU membership debateable (Although Kosovo is now listed as a potential EU member).
But I think there is a reasonable chance Westminster would accept an electoral mandate.
Sanctioning the vulnerable and having people starving is Westminster policy. That’s why there are food banks because of Westminster policies.
The majority in the UK want rid of Trident. A US weapons system.
Oil is only an addition to a successful economy. Oil is taxed at up to 90%. While (foreign) multinational tax evade through the City of London. Damaging UK businesses and open competition.
Westminster allowed bankers free reign to muck up the economy.
Tourism, fishing, farming, Renewables, energy, drink, technical, textiles and banking contributes to the Scottish economy.
Heedtracker What’s Australia like?
A place where the Scot’s you meet would remind you of what Scot’s once were like and should be today.
@Tony
It was a problem with the YES that it didn’t connect at all with non-socialist voters. Yet the Rev’s crowd-funded survey a year ago showed Scotland was “disappointingly” not as socialist as was presumed. I could have saved the cost of a survey!
The Conservatives don’t do well in Scotland becuase they are tied to Westminster policies that go way over the top. I think an Independent Scotland would have been the making of them, making them an effective opposition.
I (clearly) voted YES, but would call myself a socialist capitalist. I’d be delighted if my small business grew hugely and kept me in the lifestyle I’d like to be accustomed to.
A daughter and fiance voted NO because they have a mortgage, get by with the occasional takeaway, luxury item and gig; they worried a YES vote could put them out of their home. They surprised me after the NO by saying they might consider YES in future if they were convinced they’d be the same or a little better off.
@Chic
I suspect the opnion polls will guide the way over the next 8 months, and the GE of 2015. I doubt the SNP will make any decisions about another referendum until after.
UDI is a thorny route but a possible one. It is still likely that faced with a majority of Indy MPs or MSPs, Westminster would have to allow another referendum. Jack Straw is a bit extreme.
@Chic McGregor Perhaps the challenge was communication rather than the lack of indy friendly business voices. Business for Scotland did an amazing job but was barely reported anywhere but Newsnet Scotland; the FT had indy friendly op eds, again, only circulating afterward on twitter rather than picked up by the MSM. The Sunday Herald dedicated a large interview to pro indy tycoon Ian Godden but by one weekly is no match. Business does not need an entire party: as Robin McAlpine notes in Bella Caledonia on 19th, a progressive business lobby is what is required, and the makings of that exist. Remember too that SMEs and even the larger companies benefit from EU membership and increased immigration – both at risk from remaining hitched to the UK…
Mutters,
I think BFS did a great job of persuading business folk. The problem is there was no vehicle there that centre right folk could envisage being a party they could vote for in an IScotland. And its the voting right we struck out on.
Yesindyref2
Key thing is the SNP+ need to go into elections with up front statement that ‘you are voting for independence if you vote for us’.
If they get in the deal is OK we will have another referendum if you will negotiate a mutually beneficial agreement otherwise its UDI. If we lose then no UDI.
I think there would be another referendum then, but on a much shorter timescale e.g. 6 months.
Left the office for the workshop floor today.
Speaking to some of the guys and getting the mix response of genuine relief from some and subdued defeat and anger from others.
This duality has always been a part of my experience living here. The referendum has requested that we show our true feelings and in this type of divided society it gets uncomfortable
We are obliged to subdue these markers because this society functions more fluidly if we do.
Employers use this grey common denomination to get their work done, at the expense of who we really are.
I’m no different, it’s easier to blend in, some of us are more practised at it. If you see anyone struggling reassure them that they are not deluded, the fight will continue.
I believe that the 55 are suffering from mass Stockholm syndrome. This has happened over many generations and has been cemented in the minds over the years as the ‘mother’ culture hailing from the south crawling over the heather in tweeds and dragging great class structures and exclusive society all through the country.
Now the established ideas of how to speak properly, eat and play, work, live and innovate, all flow from some fountain in south east England. This is how they control you, if some of you are shocked by the BBC recently you should really understand that this is how it’s always been. Subdued by Strictly or Downton or Bake off or Top Gear, in thrall to Royal weddings and funerals while people in their own neighborhood go hungry. It’s called the Iron Heel for a reason. Surprised at vote rigging?
Surprised by the Left teaming up with fascists ?
All part of the plan. And you all pay for it, the grubby envelopes are full of your public money. We are on the cusp of changing something so hold tight and keep the faith.
These monster politicians are becoming jittery.
Stevie boy,
“My main concern is that no matter who we target or what gains we make, if WM continue to get away with fixing or rigging the vote we could reach the majority of these No voters and still get ‘beat’ by WM.”
That is true. We probably won this one. I had been saying for ages that democratically we would win but the Establishment would rig the result.
In future, we need to safeguard 2 things:
1. Completely independent and unbiased people from outside the UK, say from the Nordic countries, to be put in charge of the whole electoral process.
2. Postal votes to be severely restricted and controlled.
Despite the lies to the elderly, oil reserves the NHS etc etc
Is it not now our time time get the facts on these matters and
make them mainstream. The elderly are the product
of a machine that institutionalises folk, its not fault but we
need to get the facts to them.