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Wings Over Scotland


Number 1 in a long series

Posted on September 20, 2014 by

Of posts subtitled “We told you so”.

straw

Coming soon: Iraq War III, Tory victory in 2015, UK out of Europe in 2017. Hold tight.

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    1. 20 09 14 22:13

      Number 1 in a long series | FreeScotland

    2. 14 10 14 11:01

      By ourselves, then | FreeScotland

    414 to “Number 1 in a long series”

    1. A.N.Surgent says:

      Also coming ” large deposits of oil found around the coastal waters of north britain”

    2. TD says:

      Well why would they want to do that? Perhaps because they know it’s only a matter of time.

    3. Graham says:

      We can’t take this sitting down we have to fight back

    4. A.N.Surgent says:

      The UK unbalanced, unhinged more like. Looks like they have to put down our ” insurgency ” hard.

    5. Joannie says:

      They cannot do that without breaching the Good Friday Agreement which guarantees a referendum for Northern Ireland on the say so of the Secretary of State for NI. Jack Straw was Home Secretary at the time that was negotiated, so he should know better.

    6. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      People of england, your london government is attempting to shackle you to the subsidised states of scotland and wales. They want you to pay for the whinging scots and welsh for eternity. This means england can never be an independent nation, handcuffed to nations we can never free ourselves from. People of england, rise and demand the independece of england before it is too late.

    7. Jim Mitchell says:

      Just goes to show how scared they were and still are!

    8. plglbrth says:

      Long time reader. I’m still reading.

      Just thought I’d let you know.

      We can’t let these bastards win.

    9. The Catalans are having their indyref in November. Their YES vote will set a precedent that you don’t need your imperial masters aproval to vote for self determination.

    10. Quentin Quale says:

      Joannie, I’m afraid to say that they can now do whatever the hell they want, and they will. We have been stuffed.

    11. john king says:

      Good luck with that one STRAW MAN.

    12. scotspine says:

      The irony of Jack Straw MP, named after Jack Straw of the Peasants Revolt.

      The current Jack Straw is on the side of the establishment to put down peasant dissent.

    13. scotspine says:

      The people of Scotland are sovereign. Or have the 55% inadvertently taken that away from us too?

    14. john king says:

      The best way to get independence is for idiots like Jack Straw to tell us we cant have it,
      BRING IT ON!

    15. Alan McHarg says:

      aaaaarrrrrggggggg!!!!!!!

    16. crisiscult says:

      lots of disappearing posts!!!!

      This Jack Straw opinion is fair enough. Put it to a referendum in each of the 4 ‘nations’ and if they all agree, let’s get it in a written constitution. I think the fraud necessary to get that one through would be tough to pull of though.

    17. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      It’s not just the SNP that is pulling.

      Here is a nice ‘Join a Yes party today’ poster to put in yer windaes, on notice boards etc. etc.

      http://i.imgur.com/KLfZMe6.png

      SNP have got 5000 new members in 2 days. Greens have put on 2000.

      #the45

    18. i'm a fan says:

      Surely we’ll never call for independence again anyway, because Gordon et al have promised and will deliver exciting powers for us that we will cherish make us better together.

      So tell Jack he doesn’t need to bother.

    19. Gallowglass says:

      I am becoming more and more certain that any fight back is going to be notional at best.

      The Scottish electorate has handed it back to Westminster.

      We might as well say good bye, it won’t take long before they start to remove the possibility of another referendum.

    20. ronnie anderson says:

      The fighting fund has started. A younger guy has just appeared at my door ( Chapelhall resident )& handed me a bottle of Grants whisky with receipt in case I dont drink. I will take it back & get a bottle of Malt for our next night out,I directed him to WOS & said he should become more involved for the next time round,A Tammy doffed to you Peter fae Chapelhall.

    21. Justin Ross says:

      They can try, they will fail. This “No” vote is just a sticking plaster to keep this “Union” together…and it’s already starting to peel off in 24 hours. They have learned NOTHING
      we will win EVERYTHING

    22. Dcanmore says:

      Jack Straw obviously doesn’t believe in a people’s right to democracy, but of course unless we are ‘extinguished’ under the law in the first place. North Brit Brown would approve.

    23. JimnArlene says:

      Fuck Jack Straw and the rest of those lying, warmongering, so called labourite bastards. All unions are soluble, this one will dissolve. Scotland tried to do it amicably, they stole that chance. Civil, but nonviolent protest is our next option.

    24. Ananurhing says:

      “We should follow the example of stable federated countries”

      Erm….We’re not a stable federated country Jack.

    25. Vince Diaz says:

      Now that Gordon Brown has appointed himself Governor General of our country while the elected Scottish Government is ignored by Westminster, I thought it might be a good time to say, having slept on it, that the blog and batemanbroadcasting.com will continue

      Derek Bateman

    26. I find it totally galling that Jack Straw when in Government sent our lads and lassies to fight in wars when his father was a conscientious objector. I found that strange about his father for he was a jew and with what was going on at that time I would have thought he would have been keen to fight the Nazis, but no.
      I have no objections to his father being a conscientious objector but I do object to his sone sending other Mothers and Fathers’s sons and daughters to war.

    27. Tarian says:

      Does anybody take this nonsense seriously? If you remove the ballot box then people have only one option, and it won’t be pretty. Surely they couldn’t be so stupid?

    28. Vince Diaz says:

      Now that Gordon Brown has appointed himself Governor General of our country while the elected Scottish Government is ignored by Westminster, I thought it might be a good time to say, having slept on it, that the blog and batemanbroadcasting.com will continue.

      Derek Bateman

    29. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Vince Diaz –

      Delighted to hear it.

    30. ronnie anderson says:

      just had a younger guy fae Chapelhall hand in a bottle of whisky,he,s gutted that the Yes campain lost,he wouldnt take it back so thats towards the next Raffle by then it will be exchanged for a Malt.

    31. john king says:

      The wifes looking at venues for a wings night out and found that the Labour party had their night out on the Royal yacht Brittania :/

      The things you learn when you dont have a submarine handy with a torpedo in the tube. 🙁

      Ideas welcome though.
      both about how we can sink the Labour party in Scotland and where you would like a night out,
      We have been looking at hotels where you can stay the night and get a dinner and dance.

    32. Dcanmore says:

      Just had trouble getting onto the SNP website, must still be receiving lots of traffic.

    33. Murray McCallum says:

      Permanently denying a section of society a democratic right to any self determination is an odd piece of law to introduce in a mature democracy.

      Where would that kind of thinking end up?

      If the Catalan’s undertake, win and get recognition for their referendum then it will surely blow a massive hole in any future fear mongering.

    34. Capella says:

      Used to be called “Tyranny” in the good old 18th century since when the Liberals have been promising us “Home Rule” i.e. a federated system. I think I just ran out of hundreds of years to wait for any democracy from Westminster.
      BTW Labour founder Keir Hardie was also an advocate of Home Rule as Yes Scotland point out. Worth a read if only to see what a sorry state Labour has sunk into.
      http://www.yesscotland.net/news/keir-hardie-and-independence

    35. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Fwaaargh!

      Who just crapped on the good carpet?

    36. Gallowglass says:

      Wanker.

      Although it makes sense people, the next generations voted next.

      They want to close off any possible future exit.

      I would expect to see something of this nature rolled out along with Devolution II.

    37. scotspine says:

      Bluedog – I haven’t even read your link, but Fuck off in any case.

    38. Calgacus says:

      No zionazi neocon tells the Scots what to do. Where are the missing 600,000 votes scum?

    39. Breastplate says:

      Jack Straw obviously believes that hurricane ‘Nawbag’ didn’t do enough damage to Scotland so he wants to try and finish the job.

    40. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s some advice from a normal socialist – fuck right off, you boring fanny.

    41. Golfnut says:

      They can pounce about with these soundbites all they like. WM has no mandate or legal position the change the Treaty of Union. Hopefully this will get a good airingin the press. Make our job so much easier.

    42. stewartb says:

      ‘Federated country”? What does this mean? Are we really? As we look forward and plan, I guess one preparatory action is to get absolutely, legally clear about the Acts of Union and their implications for what a majority at Westminster can and cannot do with Scotland’s status in the UK. What are we really up against here?

    43. Luigi says:

      Nelson Mandela spent 27 years of his life in prison, fighting for the freedom of his people.

      Are we going to give up just because, with the odds stacked against us, we lost a closely fought referendum?

      Are we just going to meekly return to the back of the bus and eat our cereal?

      Like hell we are!

    44. Grouse Beater says:

      A vote for No, no matter how small’ was always going to mean we could not describe Scotland as a separate country, not with any authenticity or pride…

      … and as predicted by more than myself, a useless minority of MPs at Westminster were never going to stop the UK becoming ‘Great Britain’ permanently.

    45. http://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=153563905666840

      http://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1535639056668401

      Dundee has show us the way. What if we picked a different Scottish city every month and if we could get upwards of 500,000 at each march/protest.
      Would that not get the attention of London?

    46. fred blogger says:

      Breastplate
      they’ll find it hard to spin making independence refs illegal, will strengthen democracy.
      they’re fools, for the very reasons, that millions watched their shenanigans.
      then looked on @ the scots YES campaign, our magnificent engagement conduct in glowing awe and admiration, the respect we have from others is monumental.

    47. Nana Smith says:

      This creature Straw is a disgrace. Involved in an illegal war and of a cover up of paedophilia within Blair’s government. D notice of 100yrs placed so the truth won’t get told in their lifetimes. [ Google it]

      That is another reason why independence is to be denied as any documents regarding Scottish paedophile cover ups would perhaps come to light.

      The present government are trying to sweep Westminster filth under the carpet [exaro.com]

      The whole country should have nothing but contempt for creatures like straw.

    48. boris says:

      Attack of the Unionists in Glasgow Disturbances. Unionist supporters attack independence supporters in Glasgow. Video for the record

      http://caltonjock.com/2014/09/20/attack-of-the-unionists-in-glasgow-disturbances/

    49. Silverytay says:

      John King
      I am up for a wings get together , I also liked your idea for a wings political party .
      We have to keep the pressure up on the unionists to deliver on their false promises , to do nothing would be a betrayal of the 1.6 million voters who put their trust in us .

    50. Luigi says:

      RE: the treacherous straw man’s latest mussings:

      I couldn’t think of a better way to get 1.6 million people (and more) onto the streets than to try and legislate against the right of people to self determination.

      Look what is happening in Catalonia.

    51. M4rkyboy says:

      This was my line in the sand.

    52. fred blogger says:

      Breastplate
      p s we have to learn to take a bow.
      we are on the world stage now.
      the UK is now heavily diminished in the eyes of the world.

    53. Luigi says:

      A vote for No, no matter how small’ was always going to mean we could not describe Scotland as a separate country, not with any authenticity or pride

      I did not vote NO

    54. Luigi says:

      The unionist attack dogs were deliberately sent in to disrupt the YES gatherings in George Square.Someone is pulling the monkeys’ strings.

      Make no mistake – the establishment is terrified.

      1.6 votes against the union has seriously spooked them.

    55. boris says:

      Gordon Brown. Gifted, flawed and angry. On record as an ardent admirer of the, “Red Clydesider, James Maxton”, Brown has been strutting his stuff in halls the length and breadth of Scotland of Scotland these last few days relishing his self appointed role as the savior of the Better Together campaign. oft quoting Maxton as his inspiration. But James Maxton will be, “turning in his grave” even angrier than Brown, at the audacity of the man abusing his memory and historical facts pertaining to his political aspirations for Scotland. In Maxton’s day his address meant one thing. Independence.

      http://caltonjock.com/2014/09/20/682/

    56. Gallowglass says:

      @stewartb – “‘Federated country”? What does this mean? Are we really? As we look forward and plan, I guess one preparatory action is to get absolutely, legally clear about the Acts of Union and their implications for what a majority at Westminster can and cannot do with Scotland’s status in the UK. What are we really up against here?”

      We got that. Westminster is sovereign, Scotland was ‘extinguished’. That’s what the people have bought back into.

      Do you remember when the sea boundary was changed by Labour? And how it was barely mentioned by the press?

      Nobody seems to have realised how significant this being back in Unionist hands is.

      They can’t do this, they won’t do that.

      Oh I bet they fucking will.

    57. fred blogger says:

      Luigi
      i think you’re right it was an orchestrated attack as was it’s message.

    58. Kenny says:

      Of course the establishment is terrified. Do not forget that almost half of our country has rejected the union. Another large percentage was simply taken in by lies. Our biggest city, Glasgow, rejects the union and wants independence. I do not call that a defeat. I call it a base on which to move forwards!!

    59. Greannach says:

      I used to think that Blair, Balls, Reeve, Brown, Alexander, Darling, Murphy, Sarwar, Curran and Hood and the obscure battalions of Labour in Scotland’s Westminster troughers were as low down the barrel as Labour could scrape, then you reminded me of the existence of Straw. He’s down there at the bottom of that rotten, stagnant barrel too. Thanks for reminding me.

    60. fred blogger says:

      Gallowglass
      federation means 5 counties.
      NI, wales, scotland, northern england, and southern england.
      with city of london/WM hub (aka dark star) in control.
      the UK effectively ceasing to exist.

    61. BuckieBraes says:

      Maybe it’s uncharitable, but every whining No voter who, from now on, says to me, ‘I didn’t realise,’ will be told, quite bluntly:

      ‘YOU VOTED FOR IT!’

      I’d like to say it won’t give me any pleasure; but, I’m sorry – it will.

    62. RMAC says:

      I can’t wait until they next Labour candidate comes canvassing to see if he can step onto the gravy train to the ermine at the expense of everyone else, they will be told that if I wanted to vote for a Tory I would choose the real thing. I agree that removing these people from power is the way to get back on track as they clearly can’t be trusted.
      I nearly joined the SNP today, I’m still not sure I wont. I dislike the nepotism that creeps in to all hierarchical organisations which has put me off for the time being but I believe that the SNP are a trustworthy choice as there is no real alternative to the crap from Straw, Brown, Murhpy et al who’s only concern is themselves. Its been a rough couple of days but I have been here before in 1979 so realise that giving up just isn’t an option.

    63. A.N.Surgent says:

      Scotland(oops) north britain v england at Celtic Park looks like a perfect opportunity for trouble on a large scale.

    64. BuckieBraes says:

      By the way, I’m saying the above because it has started already.

    65. heedtracker says:

      Its over, one way tother by eck as like. Drinking with Yorkshire people who say Yorkshire has bigger population than Scotland so why etc…

      We need watch this English devo shyste from Broon for what it really is because I have never heard anyone English who wants an England only parliament and why would they.

      They are the dominant part of teamGB obviously and Westminster does them as well they think it can.

      Westminster, via BBC saved the union for starters.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/labour-attacks-prime-minister-constitutional-reform-proposals

    66. David says:

      There is no f***ing way im accepting this.

      Soon ill be back in Scotland im joining up in the effort.

      The outrage of this s**t is beyond words.

      Im more Scottish now than I have ever been.

    67. JimnArlene says:

      I took a breath and calmed down. This twunt isn’t even in government, he is a has been, that never was. What he says though will be the mainstream in Westminster, they only have authority if we give it. 45% did not give authority, we will not lye down, we are many, we are legion.

    68. Gallowglass says:

      It is defeat in the sense that we have lost control. Holyrood had the power because of the ‘nationalist threat’ and the SNP majority, now that has effectively been defused they are at will to try and ensure it does not happen again especially as they now have a mandate to mess with devolution further.

      This isn’t going to be pretty, and we have no media which is going to hold it to account.

    69. Tartan Tory says:

      @ scotspine

      I am not going to disagree with your sentiment, but I have some disturbing news for you….

      The people of Scotland are NOT sovereign. They were, for for a matter of only fifteen hours, a couple of days ago. Whether they knew it or not, they handed their sovereignty back to Westminster. So, to answer your quesion, Yes, the 55% have inadvertently taken that away from us too.

      The declaration of Arbroath in the 1300’s made the Scottish people sovereign (though even that may not be enough to stand the modern legal test). Regardless, presumed Scottish sovereignty was handed to Westminster, without the consent of the people, in 1707.

      Since 1707, it had always resided next to the Thames. Not once since 1707 did it move back. Not in 1979, nor 1997, was it actually disturbed. However, it arrived home at 7am on Thursday and at 10pm that same day, it went back.

      If I’m honest, I don’t expect it to be sent back to Scotland for fifteen minutes, let-alone fifteen hours, for another referendum in my lifetime.

      An independence referendum will require the consent of Westminster. Another SNP majority government might well give a Scottish mandate for it, but the chances of getting a Bullingdon boy to sign another Edinburgh Agreement again, are pie in the sky.

      It will be much easier for them to simply shut down Holyrood, which they can do on a whim and without a public vote. In fact, they could now be said to have a Scottish mandate to do that if they wish, since a majority of Scots have effectively given their consent. 🙁

    70. Gallowglass says:

      @fred blogger

      I know what federalism is thanks, and it will never appear in the UK because it is at complete odds with parliamentary sovereignty, which my reply was based upon in respect to the question on legal clarity.

    71. Greannach says:

      Murray McCallum – Sorry to nitpick, Murray, but which mature democracy were you thinking of?

    72. alexicon says:

      Jack Straw is looking to cause serious civil disobedience on the streets of Scotland with this dangerous move.
      Most of you have seen me posting on here and I don’t think I have lost the rag yet, but…I think if I hear fucking 45 again I’ll certainly lose it.
      I have worked tirelessly for over 2 years, like most of the people on here, and I will not take any more of this decisive shite of 45.
      For me I will never work under that banner, or even with people who are. It will mean the end of any involvement for me in furthering the cause if it ever emerged as a serious slogan.
      It may sound romantic in some sort of Jacobean way, but it does our cause no good in alienating the other 55%, so for the love of god stop shooting yourselves in the foot by adopting this ridicules slogan.
      Fuck 45, I want a lot more than that.

    73. heedtracker says:

      http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/19/austerity-george-osborne-ifs-conservative-labour-lib-dem-chancellor

      The other worst thing about NO bottling it is the fact the NO vote actually voted for ConDem teamGB austerity and its now up to SNP Scots.gov’s to try and head it all off and all for same vote NO proud Scot buts majority that voted for austerity and so on. Talk about your dysfunctional gov.

      So SNP struggle on until next Scots GE, all the while savaged by BBC etc for austerity cuts and then in comes Lamont and co, triumphant at last.

    74. seanair says:

      Boris
      Brown seems to have done all his strutting to picked audiences guaranteed not to question his Imperial Mastership.
      He is a deluded fool who has already fallen behind his so-called timetable.
      He gets all this publicity from the BBC etc, but no-one questions why he didn’t work with BT and Darling instead of going off on his own bundle of lies.
      Yesterday’s man.

    75. JLT says:

      People are really angry over the multiple broken promises from Westminster. I can see the clamouring for a new referendum in the near future …no matter what Westminster says. We are a sovereign people. We have the right! If we want one, then we’re bloody well having one! So Jack …sling your hook!

    76. Breastplate says:

      Fred, it wasn’t meant to sound defeatist but maybe I should have finished the comment off with “come ahead then, wee man”. 🙂

    77. Gallowglass says:

      @Tartan Tory

      I don’t think we’ve lost sovereignty, in that as a people we will always be able to chose the government that best suits our needs.

      What we might have done is bought into a situation where another majority can be made unlikely or impossible, in an attempt to frustrate any further attempts.

      They could block it altogether, but I’m not sure really if they would have the temerity to do such a thing.. and ultimately true Federalism will never come about anyway.

      All we’re going to get is a rough deal for Scottish devolution (II).

    78. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Next election get as many to vote snp as possible and wipe labour of the Scottish political map but don’t tell the no’s. Let them stay complacently at home thinking the battle is won.

    79. scotspine says:

      Tartan Tory,

      And we know where that would end up…..

    80. msean says:

      They seem to have learned nothing,the fastest way to what they fear is to put up a block.

    81. Grouse Beater says:

      When Cameron strode out of Number 10 to speak to the ‘nation,’ he spoke the ominous words, ‘Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England need fixed.’

      He meant an indissoluble federation.

      There is no other interpretation.

      That was always Plan A in the event of a Yes defeat.

      And believe me, they will send in the riot police, and then the water cannon, and then tanks if it’s resisted.

    82. Richard Hunter says:

      Well the strikeback has well and truly begun! I don’t think any of us can really be surprised. I said before the vote that people had every reason to be afraid of a ‘no’ vote since it would be a green light for Westminster to reek its revenge. The frequent reply from ‘nos’ was “Why would they seek revenge if we’ve voted to say in the union?” Of course, what they didn’t understand is that Westminster does not see a ‘No’ as being against independence; they see it as begging to remain in the union: That is a position of weakness, not of strength.

    83. Kenneth Macalpin says:

      What he is more or less suggesting is the outlawing of a democratic political party.
      This is what our enlightened no voters have given us. Cheers guys.

    84. Luigi says:

      Gallowglass says:
      20 September, 2014 at 9:38 pm

      @Tartan Tory

      What we might have done is bought into a situation where another majority can be made unlikely or impossible, in an attempt to frustrate any further attempts.

      They could block it altogether, but I’m not sure really if they would have the temerity to do such a thing.. and ultimately true Federalism will never come about anyway.

      All we’re going to get is a rough deal for Scottish devolution (II).

      I hear what you are saying. Another referendum on independence is off the table for a while. Probably a good thing. Despite the three stoogies broken vow, I still think we are some years away from winning a full referendum. Sure we came close, but there will be a problem with the 65+ age groups, who stubbornly refuse to imagine a better alternative to Westminster rule and abuse.

      Back to devo max – it is hugely popular (70%) – even if Westminster refuses it, we can mobilise huge support – unofficial referendums etc. Westminster is terrified of devo max, not because it couldn’t deliver but because of how popular and unstopable it would quickly become.

    85. heedtracker says:

      There can only be another referendum next decade etc if Westminster passes a bill allowing it.

      The sovereignty of the Scottish has only the ability to ask Westminster for something and then they decide.

      Its highly unlikely to happen. Even if it did happen in a decade or three, well look at BBC project fear, vote fraud, UKOK fascists beating up girls in Glasgow.

      NO is the settled will of the people of Scotland and from now until 600 English MP’s under the Royals decide otherwise, Scotland is ruled by them only.

    86. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Tartan Tory –

      Sadly, so far as I’m aware, you are correct.

      That’s why we need to be ahead of the game, and prepared to use extraordinary tactics. There’s no need for violence – we can leave that nonsense to the ‘loyalists’.

      There are many ways to skin a cat, and we’ve all learned a huge amount from this defeat. The most important fact of all (IMO) is that we ‘took’ Glasgow – SLab’s heartland. That’s why they’re bricking it. And they should.

      The bully-boys were sent out to play last night, and they may well appear again, but even the possibility of well-organised Indy groups anticipating their movements will see them disappear like snow aff a dyke. Drunken bloodthirsty cowards, euphoric, unsure why they’re celebrating, and oblivious to the damage they’re doing – unlike the political whores who’ve exploited them.

    87. Luigi says:

      And believe me, they will send in the riot police, and then the water cannon, and then tanks if it’s resisted.

      If they have to start doing that to save the union, then the union is already dead.

    88. crisiscult says:

      @Kenny

      I share your sentiment 100%. Added to that, am I right in thinking only the over 55s voted against independence (based on opinion polling)? Not what I would call an embrace of the union or of Scotland being a region.

    89. Mealer says:

      Heedtracker,
      I have other ideas.

    90. Midgehunter says:

      After a hard days pain yesterday thinking about the Ref., greetin and what I’m gonna do, I woke up early this morning, switched on the computer, went to the SNP site and joined as a member.

      I’m an SNP man now, so Straw, don’t mess around with me you twat… 😉

    91. gillie says:

      Let’s wipe Labour off the map.

    92. Luigi says:

      Just remember folks,

      Governments can only govern with the consent of the people.

      It doesn’t matter how many fancy laws they pass. It doesn’t matter how many tanks they have. Without popular consent, they are finished.

    93. Gallowglass says:

      Worst of it is we really won’t know how things look for another year or so, the next GE and then Scotland Act delight that is surely going to disappoint.

      The SNP haven’t said much, conference is a while away, all it can do is attack the unionist failure to adhere to the ‘vow’ and is either now going to be ignored or sullied possibly to some detriment unless *something* is done soon. If there was no planning for this eventuality, then yes I’d be quite concerned for the success of the party. It has been successful, but I don’t think it’s opponents are going to relent. Labour has given itself some serious issues, but the media and narrative will assist.

      I’m not trying to offend those who have campaigned hard with no political affiliation, but the SNP has been the political vehicle and without it the possibility of a grassroots support regaining moment is hard to foresee. A new party would take decades to take hold.

    94. Murray McCallum says:

      Greannach

      Ha point taken.

      Even if the term “mature democracy” is not the best, it is at least an old structure.

      Jack Straw’s odious comments strike me as an extreme, ill thought through and dangerous knee-jerk reaction to civilised democracy.

    95. scotspine says:

      Heedtracker.

      I think there are the guts of 1,600,000 people here who may have different ideas than 600 odd people in a far away big hall.

    96. No no no...Yes says:

      Jack Straw is a chancer.This is very disturbing and an example of what Westminster intends to do as part of the payback to us Jocks who had the nerve to even think about democracy.

      Catching up with all the latest in the last 48 hours;

      If the referendum had been carried out in a balanced and fair manner by all concerned and there was a NO vote I think the YES side would be disappointed, but not angry.

      We the 21st century 45 have been done over big time!

      As many before have commented on the lead up to polling day, it was always going to be a full on assault from the Establishment who did not want to lose. They deployed every possible tactic and scared the living daylights out of certain sections of the electorate. One of the worst was to falsely suggest their would be panic at cash machines if their was a YES vote and the fear of intimidation by YES at the polls on the 18th.The Police Federation rarely issue such strong press releases to counter the fear.

      Glasgow Commonwealth City 2014- shameful behaviour by the UK Nationalists. They are being tracked down and will be held to account!

      Gordon is a moron- he is deluded and no-one is paying attention apart from the BBC who broadcast his speech in full. Shocking amount of coverage and pointless assertions.
      Scottish Labour Party. Ed Miliband has signed their death warrant with his comments today.

      The VOW- The Daily Record should hand their heads in shame and their circulation will plummet as a result.

      Where is Better Together leadership today. Silent majority alright:

      Darling silent
      Ruth Davidson silent
      Johann Lamont silent
      Willie Rennie silent

      This is a different type of ’45 cause, it must remain peaceful and within the bounds of criminal law for us to succeed. I trust people like Craig Murray and Lallands Peat Worrier are on the constitutional case to assist.

    97. scotspine says:

      I still think that the SNP govt should call a snap Scottish General Election now.

    98. heedtracker says:

      “Writing on this newspaper’s website, Jenkin argues that Scottish MPs have been left with “power but no legitimacy” by devolution, and claims that resentment is growing about the iniquity of the system, as well as the commitment to Scots to receiving £1,600 per head more in public spending.”

      Says the Graun and its probably the one thing in teamGB that takes Scotland down the road to home rule. They keep the union jack flying over the sweaties and they take the oil but this is how it will probably end for UKOK.

      You want to see the full page union jack sky over a Scottish landscape montage in the Press and Journal today. There’s plenty of seriously creepy gits hard at UKOK work up here.

    99. bookie from hell says:

      Dr Eion Clarke–Labour

      Never, ever, ever, ever trust a Tory. No matter who they share a platform with, what they sign or what they pledge. #IndyRef

      better together

      walofs

    100. Cuilean says:

      As a ‘one bite at the cherry’ clause was not in the Edinburgh Agreement, you can fuck right off Jack Straw; then you can come back and then you can fuck right off, again. #EverybodyCanFuckRightOffDay

    101. Gallowglass says:

      Oh aye, well done Stuart, you’ve starting doing something I still feel considerable anger and resentment about even having to consider doing again seeing as we were so close from never having to bother again… I’m convinced the Scots just hit the reset button.

      Salmond was cute saying Scotland was in a position of strength when he didn’t want to look bitter at saying the reality, Scotland is now in a position of weakness.

    102. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Following is re-posted from preious thread.

      Let’s make sure that Scottish Labour MPs (even the good ones) know that we’ve got their cards marked – payback time is next year…

      Have just sent this to my MP via writetothem.com

      Please feel free to amend/use.

      Dear Katy Clark,

      With a heavy heart, I am writing to inform you that I will actively campaign for whichever candidate has the best chance of unseating you at the next General Election.

      Any time I have contacted you you have been courteous and prompt in your replies (apart from the one time when I suggested that you might like to consider leaving the Labour Party and helping LFI become a properly constituted party). I have defended your performance as an MP on many occasions.

      However, your support for the Better Together campaign leaves me no choice – your party helped to bully and frighten the most vulnerable members of our community, and they opted to become the ONLY British citizens ever to vote for the ‘United Kingdom’.

      I will never contact you again – you do not represent me, my family, and the 45% of fellow Scots whose struggle for freedom from Westminster rule will continue.

      Goodbye.

      Yours sincerely,

      Ian Brotherhood

    103. Croompenstein says:

      Stu predicted this pish from Straw but I really wish they would stop talking about union, there is no union it is bullshit, we have a large country subjugating and imposing it’s will on it’s smaller neighbours that’s not union it is fascism plain and simple

    104. Luigi says:

      The establishment is terrified that the 1.6 million who rejected the union may become mobilised.

      Let’s not disappoint them.

      The referendum was just the end of the beginning.

    105. Gallowglass says:

      No, I’m sorry but regardless of how unfair the playing field might have been there was still a democratic vote on leaving the UK and the people didn’t want it.

      We might be seeing some ugly scenes, many are personally gutted, but there is a Union and the Scots just agreed to it.

    106. ChrisB says:

      This is from a year ago: https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/westminster-2015-will-snp-shake-things-up

      “…Suppose there is a no vote in the referendum. Then the current generation of SNP leaders will want to secure the promise made by all of the other main parties of significantly more devolution after the referendum. But nationalists remember too well that similar promises made in the run up to the 1979 refererendum were ditched at the first opportunity. If they want to ensure that this little bit of history isn’t repeated, a large Westminster delegation would help significantly – particularly if Parliament is, once again, hung…

      …What I am saying is this: The 2010 result in Scotland was exactly the same as the 2005 result – every seat voted the same way. We shouldn’t assume that things will be equally dull in 2015. Major changes are afoot in Scotland.

      In 2010 the SNP gained 6 of the seats in Scotland. In 2015 it could win fewer if it spirals into a collapse. But it could win a great deal more – even just taking the Lib Dem seats they now hold at Holyrood would nearly double this number, and there’s a reasonable case that they’ll take seats off Labour too.

      Scottish MPs make up 9 per cent of the House of Commons – 59 seats. With the 2015 result not yet clear, changes north of the border could impact on the UK as a whole. With that in mind, it’s worth, maybe, thinking about this question. If it is another hung Parliament, what price would the SNP demand for making Ed Miliband Prime Minister?…”

    107. Nana Smith says:

      A copy should be put through every NO voters letterbox.

      https://twitter.com/Zeyn91/status/513419876728569856/photo/1

    108. neil mcgregor says:

      i honestly think the various groups and parties that formed the yes campaign have got to pull together to keep the 45 per cent united in an aim to oust all labour mps in the wesminster election

    109. bluedog says:

      Gallowglass @ 09.33 says, ‘I know what federalism is thanks, and it will never appear in the UK because it is at complete odds with parliamentary sovereignty, which my reply was based upon in respect to the question on legal clarity.’

      Correct. The constitution becomes sovereign. But to take an example, Australia has a federation that is also a parliamentary democracy and a monarchy, so that may be the model being considered. A criticism of a possible British federation is that England is too big. But in Australia, NSW is over ten times the size of Tasmania (by population) and that works okay.

      No federation is indissoluble. It’s just a proven system for codifying the rights of a central government and devolved entities.

      Australia may also provide an example to Scots following the indyref vote. The defeat of the proposed Australian republic in a referendum in 1999 by a far narrower margin than the indyref vote has seen the issue go quiet. Republican activists continue to express their views but there is no popular support for a repeat of that highly divisive experience. Support for the monarchy has increased to 60%.

    110. ann says:

      I’ve been up in Inverness this weekend at my daughters graduation.

      It’s safe to say that quite a few of hem voted yes and are very, very angry about the whole thing.

      Having been around a lot of the small towns and villages there are lots and lots of yes stickers, flags etc still in windows all over the place, so there is still quite a bit of fight around.

      I took my Saltaire down before I left, but it will be going up on my return with “45” on it.

      Myself and my daughter are proud to be part of the 45.

      Alex had faith in our youngsters, but they themselves were badly let down by their seniors and it was so sad to see some of them crying.

      Also having seen some clips of counters actually filling in polling cards at the counts and also the low turn out at Glasgow and Dundee, both YES cities. Questions really have to be asked.

      If what happened in the last two weeks of our referendum had happened anywhere else in the world there would have been an international outcry.

    111. Morag says:

      I hope Craig Murray is as far away from this as possible. Just my opinion.

    112. Greannach says:

      Murray – Thanks! But it just isn’t an old structure. Scottish partial democracy dates from 1999. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland dates from less than 100 years ago. That’s all: UKGBNI is newer than Norway.

    113. Croompenstein says:

      @Gallowglass – would you please #fuckrightoff and take the bluedug with you, I don’t think I can stomach any more of your defeatist pish

    114. Greannach says:

      Nana – no point. They wouldn’t get it.

    115. Albaman says:

      See Rev, it was indicated to you that the skirmish may be lost, but the battle is still there to be won, it is obvious that all on here are more than willing to continue the fight for freedom, and hope you can continue to lead with “wings”,

    116. Tartan Tory says:

      scotspine says:

      I still think that the SNP govt should call a snap Scottish General Election now.

      Absolutely correct! Either that, or resign from government completely and let that F***tard Johanne (& Davidson) take all the flack that’s coming in the form of broken promises and austerity. They wouldn’t last two minutes and they could then be forced to call a Scottish election themselves in desparation.

      I sincerely hope the SNP bods think tactically here, without considering their political positions, and play hardball for ALL of us.

    117. Black Douglas says:

      The fact that the 👿 are still posting on here gives you all the proof that you need that this fight has only just begun.

    118. Keef says:

      We also need someone who was running the campaign like Blair Jenkins to confirm what the real picture looked like the days before the vote. Was the polls really that close? In a few cases Yes was in front.

      How did No seem so confident the moment polls closed?

      As the campaign continues there must be thought given on how to involve the many Scots oversees who long to see Scotland independent. There must be a role for them too.

    119. Chitterinlicht says:

      Line. Sand.

      This is a new kind of angry not one born from disappointment but from someone trying to remove my democratic rights.

    120. Donald says:

      http://gordonandsarahbrown.com/2014/09/gordon-browns-post-referendum-speech/

      In the speech above Gordon Brown states “A fortnight ago I also said that “I would like to see a Second Reading of the Bill by Easter”, and added “but we will seek to ensure that it is brought in at the latest in the first legislative week of the new Parliament in JUNE.”

      However Better Together’s leaflet clearly states “2nd reading of Scotland bill will take place after the general election 7th MAY”

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/vow2a.jpg

    121. EphemeralDeception says:

      Jack Straw. I cannot stand this excuse for a human being.
      It is he that overturned the English high court in the People of Diego Garcia finding the UK government guilty of a crime against humanity.

      He bounced it to the Lords so that an Order in Council could make the illegal, legal and then just disappear.

      Then he lied in parliament about the rendition via this island.

      Jack Straw is a nefarious baw bag.

    122. Achnababan says:

      We lost the referendum not because of the promise of more devolution, but because of the grey tops – they are after numero uno, end of!

      Brown scared then shitless about their pensions and they bought it. The currency stuff most have also added to their anxiety.

      We are so busy setting up trendy YES groups for younger people we forgot them – where was ‘OAP’s for Yes’?

      We should have been talking to our parents and grandparents. We forget how scared and isolated they can be, easy victims to ghoulish Gordon Brown prowling around like a demented beast

      It might take 20 years to flush them out of the system but then again, they might be easily replaced by settlers from the south here to enjoy the good life but who will remain steadfastly loyal to Britain.

      Now we need to find another Scotland, away from Referendums, biased broadcasters etc. etc. They are poison to our souls!

      A cultural, economic and social dynamic that stands up and resists big business and Westminster when they vex us – think what was achieved with the poll tax protests and think what we could achieve by rescuing Scottish businesses using a Scottish community bank, or creating a crowd-funded online TV channel that promotes YES thinking,

      Think about…..

      Politics is a dirty game and we don’t need our oil revenues to create a happy and vibrant Scotland that can resist corporate greed and bent journalists. Lets go with our positive energy and do what we want. No voters wont stop me being a Scot!

      By the way does anyone know of a bank with good Scottish credentials that I can invest my meagre savings?

    123. Lemon says:

      This is bullshit and Jack Straw knows it, he is playing to the English audience.
      Under the U.N. charter people have the right to self determination and the fact that we already have had a referendum it proves we are a “people”.
      As a permanent member of the U.N. council the U.K. has to at least be seen to up hold the U.N. charter.
      I think I will email him about this point and see what he says.

    124. Croompenstein says:

      @Keef – How did No seem so confident the moment polls closed?

      It was the first thing I noticed when the results programmes started on Thursday night how relaxed and confident the naysayers were, even the TV presenters were taken aback by the over confidence. I said right away I smell shite and the stench of shite remains (apart from gallowglass and bluedug I mean)

    125. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Prior to the result, Rev did his level best to deal with trolls by advocating that we ignore them entirely.

      Many of us heeded that advice.

      Now? The trolls achieved what they were paid to do. Why on earth should we still tolerate them?

      I don’t like telling anyone to ‘fuck off’, but sometimes it’s the most succinct and honest response available.

      So, ‘bluedog’ – why are you here again, after being asked, repeatedly, to ‘fuck off’? There’s nothing whatsoever for you to do here. If you want to gloat, go ahead, and take what you get in response, but spare us the pedantic constitutional shite.

    126. scotspine says:

      Bluedog, you are like a lump of persistent dog shit on the sole of my shoe.

      How many times do you need to be told to fuck off before you get the message?

    127. macart763m says:

      Once again, well done no voters.

      Who knew?

      That one will not go unchallenged.

    128. Achnababan says:

      Sorry another post from me, but its a question not a rant!

      Why did the SNP go with the Edinburgh agreement rather than having a referendum without Westminster’s ‘blessing’ and have devo-max on the ballot?

      AS must have known winning outright independence now was a tall order.

    129. wee folding bike says:

      Achnababan,

      Airdrie Savings Bank.

      I filled in the online form more than a week ago and they haven’t replied. I suspect they are quite busy.

    130. Marian says:

      45% voted for Scotland to be independent and if Westminster thinks for one minute that they are going to meekly accept a 55% majority thst was only obtained by Westminster and its media lackeys lying and cheating all the way through the campaign, then they had better think again.

      YES campaigners should now unite to form a political force even stronger than it was complete with streaming TV and Radio and online news to rival and even better the British media in every way to reach out with a message of truth to the people of Scotland that makes it the number one choice for viewing and listening to news and current affairs in Scotland.

      Then this new political force campaigns like never seen before to make Scotland’s Westminster MP’s unionist free. We’ve already done it to the Tories, the LibDems just need one last small push, and now the Westminster Labour party in Scotland are ripe for eradication too.

      Once Scotland returns every MP as one who wants full political and fiscal autonomy we have an unstoppable weapon to get exactly what we want.

    131. Mealer says:

      If 54% of under 65s voted Yes,I’m guessing a higher percentage of union members voted Yes.Couldnt we get a campaign going to make sure unions pursue a devo max agenda?

    132. Croompenstein says:

      @Achnababan – The SNP were elected with a landslide majority to govern Scotland in 2011, now part of their manifesto was to hold a referendum on Scottish independence and unlike UK parties who don’t honour their manifestos the SNP had to seek ‘permission’ from Westminster to carry out their manifesto promise.

      I don’t know if you have seen the smug smiling pictures of Cameron the day he came to sign the Edinburgh Agreement. He was smug and smiling because, as Alex told us, they thought the result was in the bag. But wily Alex gave us nearly 2 years to arm ourselves with the information and determination required to take on the British Establishment. We have come so far since that was signed..we are legion

    133. A.N.Surgent says:

      Achnababan

      Cameron insisted on devo-max not being on the ballot paper. Without WM “blessing ” it would have been dismissed out of hand.

    134. heedtracker says:

      Why did the SNP go with the Edinburgh agreement rather than having a referendum without Westminster’s ‘blessing’ and have devo-max on the ballot?

      Westminster can dissolve Holyrood any time they like. TeamGB media can make a state ungovernable, City spivs can close down Scots economy. Look at the RBS shyste last week, and now same shysters think we should welcome their fraudster business back. No thanks.

    135. fred blogger says:

      see what happened in the past was we went home and took it, why coz there was no social media.
      they still relied on steam driven #patronisingbtlady ideas.
      social media has reignited indyref yes in a few hours, previously this would take years.
      we bounce back as if we never went away, the no camp relies on brute force, fear, fire and brimstone, you’ll burn in damnation unless you vote no, and are now powerless to stop us.
      we are not afraid of what they say anymore.
      no MSM can get @ us unless it is invited.

    136. saporian says:

      @achnababan
      “We lost the referendum not because of the promise of more devolution, but because of the grey tops – they are after numero uno, end of!

      Brown scared then shitless about their pensions and they bought it. The currency stuff most have also added to their anxiety.

      We are so busy setting up trendy YES groups for younger people we forgot them – where was ‘OAP’s for Yes’?

      We should have been talking to our parents and grandparents. We forget how scared and isolated they can be, easy victims to ghoulish Gordon Brown prowling around like a demented beast”
      This 100 times over. They grey vote was harvested by the Labour Party courtesy of the BIG LIARS Gordon Brown (pensions) and Alistair Darling (we can’t use the pound). The Labour party in Scotland needs to be totally destroyed before we can make any further progress on the independence question.

    137. Robert Louis says:

      Firstly, folks on here, chillax a bit. Let’s think logically and cut the hysteria a wee bit. 🙂

      Jack Straw, or should I say ‘Lord’ Straw, the former socialist and CND activist, who sold his soul, for ermine robes, is talking utter bull.

      He is a lawyer, so really should know better. Scotland is in a bilateral union treaty with England. Neither he nor Scotland can alter the scope or terms of that treaty. The only solution is to dissolve the treaty, in which case Scotland would no longer in the union, and Westminster legislation would be of no consequence. He’s talking rubbish.

      Beyond that however, is the universal right to self determination, as enshrined within the UN charter of human rights. Unless we are moving into a totalitarian State from London, I can see no legitimacy for such an extreme move. The referendum asked Scots if Scotland should become an independent country. It did not ask should Scotland lose its identity and right to a democratic process towards self determination forever.

      What is important, is that this suggestion has not come from the Tories. It is the Labour party who have suggested this.

      I can only assume, that the Labour party have now decided to cut their losses in Scotland, and no longer have any political interest here.

      As a final point, should the madness of Lord Jack Straw, the former socialist and Labour party member, ever take shape, we would have another Ireland. I don’t think even Lord Straw would relish such a thought. Cool heads folks, cool heads.

      In the meantime, consider joining a pro indy party like the SNP or Scottish greens, or SSP. It is a very clear and accurate way to demonstrate your anger at the Labour party and our betrayal by Westminster. Make no mistake, Labour and Westminster do notice such things, as their backbenchers start freaking out about maybe losing their seats and cosy London lifestyles. You would be amazed. It is effective.

      Either way, let’s not let posters wind us up on here, and just focus on our future efforts to carry on the fight for Scottish independence. As I have said many times, you need to realise, this isn’t the end, it’s just the beginning. Do not let people try to divide you.

      O/T as an aside, British intelligence will have known that those right wing nutters were in Glasgow, some were from England and in the EDL, who are tracked wherever they go, and some were from N.Ireland, and they too would be watched by the Police in N.Ireland. It is interesting is it not, to consider, was their presence a wee something the British state had in their backpocket, if their had been a YES result. Stir up sectarianism etc.. like they did in N.Ireland for decades. Hmm.. makes you wonder.

    138. alistair says:

      Just reposting a variant of what I think should happen. Let Westminster pull themselves apart until the next general election. Its already started and with Milliband, Cameron, Boris, Farage and now Straw. They will do the work for us. If all the Yes parties could stand for Yes Scotland or One Scotland under one banner with no competing candidates and LFI included then there would be one focus to get rid of this WM mob. In the meantime we have to start removing the uncertainties of why we lost the referendum (currency, central bank, pensions, …). When Boris and Farage and co take charge after next election it will be a different ballgame.

    139. Gallowglass says:

      @Croompenstein

      I’m sorry, I’m as heartbroken as you, but you can’t start running around saying that it is;

      ” a large country subjugating and imposing it’s will on it’s smaller neighbours that’s not union it is fascism plain and simple”

      It isn’t, it was a democratic vote that just endorsed the Union. I know it’s a nightmare, but it’s come true.

      I’m not being defeatist. We were defeated, it’s plain and simple. I’m not happy with the localism narrative coming forward from some, but then equally we can’t just dismiss the whole thing as not haven happened.

      Even look at Stuarts postings, this is a serious setback. And we can’t attack each other, so no I think we need to get beyond telling each other to fuck off.

    140. The Man in the Jar says:

      What is all this talk of “Devo Max” full independence or nothing! What if we had devo max and Westminster got embroiled in another illegal war and wanted to send young Scots to their deaths just so they can “punch above their weight” and what if Scotland disagreed?

    141. Footsoldier says:

      I do not in any way advocate violence but Straw is really playing with fire by denying a nation the right to self determination.

      How would he feel if the EU would not permit the UK a referendum on Europe without the majority of EU countries agreeing?

    142. CRAIGthePICT says:

      Over my dead body will the right to self determination be taken away.

    143. Ron Maclean says:

      I like the name bluedog. There’s a hint of conservatism, loyalty, stability and family values but with pornographic undertones. A bit like the House of Commons. I keep thinking someone in the union jack suit he got from Sir Jimmy for services rendered.

    144. EphemeralDeception says:

      “snap Scottish General Election”

      No way. The SNP were voted in to Govern through thick and thin. They cannot betray those who elected them.

      They could though ask for a vote of confidence later in the term etc after Alex has resigned. Then see what happens.

      There is no point in vengeance towards our own electorate. Since it was the >55 years old population that turned out to vote No, this is the only section that needs to be seriously worked on.

      In this case families need to talk to their older members, reassure them and tell them to vote YES for their childrens future not No for their own fear of change.

    145. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Gallowglass –

      Do you believe that the fight was won ‘fair and square’?

    146. Croompenstein says:

      @Gallowglass – I never told you to fuck off I told you to #fuckrightoff you defeatist cnut

    147. Greannach says:

      Ian Brotherhood – I like your letter but I have an SNP MP and there’s no point writing to him. I pay the wages and expenses of every MP, but since I’m out with the constituency of luminaries such as Tom Greatrex and Sheila Gilmour, they have the get-out clause of not needed to bother to reply. I would love to know what the likes of Frank Roy and Gemma Doyle et all have actually done to serve my money. Is there any way I can force them?

    148. Molly says:

      Can someone explain to me , Eric Joyce is my MP not Gordon Brown so who authorised him to make decisions on my behalf? His party is not even in power?

      I will also say this- I never thought I’d see the day when the people of Scotland voted to accept food banks but by voting to stay in the Union, they are accepting this current coalition policies.To me they have said , we accept both the Tories and Labour to make our big decisions – what were they thinking this vote was about?

    149. Chitterinlicht says:

      British Labour Party.

      I never really got that till last 6 months.

      Let’s vote them out Tory fag boys.

    150. Marcia says:

      Now, now gentlemen. Cool it please.

    151. Gallowglass says:

      @Croompenstein says:
      I said right away I smell shite and the stench of shite remains (apart from gallowglass and bluedug I mean)

      I think most people seem to be accepting that the result was fair, and even if it turned out it wasn’t and you could overturn the 6% needed, it isn’t going to happen.

      The shite I smell has come from the negative unionist campaign and complicit media and business.

      You know, some nutters running about screaming about how the Russians also think it was a stitch up really isn’t going to get us very far.

      This is an actual fucking mess.

    152. Footsoldier says:

      Straw was Foreign Secretary and look at the current bunch. These. guys are/were in charge of UK foreign policy.

      When you look at how they have handled the domestic issues like the referendum, is it any wonder the UK foreign policy verges on complete incompetency.

      No doubt Straw will be happy to apply the same principle to Europe whereby no UK referendum can be held on UK being in or out of Europe without a majority of EU members agreeing?

      What a seedy wee man.

    153. Vince says:

      Why were the No side so confident about the outcome so quickly. Well, they knew the early feedback on the postal vote, which was coming in at near 67/33 . With approx. 750,000 postal votes that gave the No side the knowledge that they were going to have a lead of 250,000 before another vote was counted. This meant that on the remaining 2.8 million votes YES would have to get 54.5% of these votes. A post election you/guv poll suggested that it was going to be a 54% vote for No. Therefore before a normal vote cast on the day of the election was counted the result was effectively confirmed. Yes won the vote of those who voted on the day!

    154. Luigi says:

      If 70% of people aged 65+ voted NO on Thursday, and 70% aged 16-18 voted YES, then many YES voters must have a grandparent that voted against their dream.

      “Grannie, why did you destroy my dream?”

    155. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      *sigh* TEST

    156. Gallowglass says:

      @Ian Brotherhood “Do you believe that the fight was won ‘fair and square’?”

      Not at all, I have still barely picked myself up from it, but running around calling it oppression and a conspiracy is just not going to achieve anything.

      It was still a democratic vote, that both sides agreed to abide to. We all knew Westminster wouldn’t play it fairly, and unfortunately we lost.

      I’m not being defeatist as it’s pretty obvious we lost, just trying to keep it at least within reality as we wait for some progress or direction..

      I’m concerned at what this will do to the SNP, and particularly the split in opinions and apparent infighting this will cause. It’s not the first time the nationalists have been split after a defeat either…

    157. davidb says:

      @Gallowglass.

      The YUK makes a big deal about Russian elections where telly channels deny the opposition air time. In a climate of intimidation – I wasn’t brave enough to fly a saltire in Knuckledraggerhall – with a fanatically biased news media ( particularly MOT ), and as others have suggested, the peoples party harvesting postal votes in for example care homes. Councils banning discussion in workplaces like school staffrooms. With companies threatening workers – curiously I don’t recall any Yes companies threatening their workers, which I’m sure the MOT would have fully informed us.

      In many ways this vote is actually a pastiche of a truly democratic process. It was a democratic vote in the sense that people were able to vote, but for many voters – particularly those in older age groups and less self informed – its debatable whether it was a free and fair process.

      I don’t accept that the outcome is the settled will.

    158. awayanbileyerheed says:

      There are 1.5million plus grieving scots today. Would someone please take leadership and form a plan. We have an absolutely amazing grassroots. We fought against the entire Elite and their bottomless wallets! We very nearly won In nearly all but the the elderly age group (65+) we had people voting Yes in the majority of other age groups. We did an amazing thing.
      There were some dubious goings on with the count and complaints should be lodged. But we MUST NOT let our grassroots disbandon. We need to herald behind a leader! If we don’t, then grief will give sway to anger and we could end up with an SLA (Scottish Liberation Army)!

      People in the Yes group need direction and quickly. Already people who voted No are regretting it they are coming on side. Our numbers are GROWING!

    159. Robert Louis says:

      Here is a question. If in the run up to the vote, the state run and controlled BBC, plus ALL UK newspapers bar one weekly, had not produced grossly misleading and propagandist programming/reporting regarding the referendum 24/7, then would their have been a majority for YES.

      I think their would. Given that, and the clear disregard for the electoral commission guidelines for the referendum by unionists, it isn’t really difficult to see that we will likely need another referendum pretty quickly.

    160. Footsoldier says:

      The Scots have completely bottled it. Apart from Proud Scots, who on earth is going to support a pretendy nation’s football team against their masters?

      Flower of Scotland should be whistled down. Let the English team sing God Save the Queen and the Scots can sing Rule Brittania.

    161. Marcia says:

      Vince

      I think you are right. The No side were ahead on the postal votes in Dundee but far behind when those on the day voted.

    162. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Greannach –

      So far as I’m aware, MPs are entitled to completely rubber-ear any communication if it comes from someone who isn’t one of their ‘constituents’.

      I think we saw that demonstrated when many Wingers forwarded the set of questions Rev presented as a post some months ago, (and reviewed fairly recently) – ‘Nae answer’ came the reply from most.

    163. Luigi says:

      I remember an attempt through FI to obtain documents about what Jack Straw said on Scottish independence were blocked, for no apparent reason.

      I wonder what was said.

    164. Ken500 says:

      Arrest Straw and put him in jail for war crimes, along with the rest of them.

    165. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Nope- just can’t get past the comment filter tonight. Pity 🙁

    166. Free Scotland says:

      Jack Straw was in the imperial-masters youtube video by Empire Biscuits. Maybe he went back home on the train believing that we really do revere him as one of our imperial masters.

    167. Pentland Firth says:

      Lets cool it folks, and stop telling our own to fuck off. We can have an honest disagreement, but there’s no reason to be rude to each other. Keep calm and think how we can come together to win our independence. If we stick together it can be won (possibly in two or three years), but if we rage at each other we only serve our opponents (I’m trying to be polite).

    168. Robert Louis says:

      The man in the jar,

      I have never campaigned for devo max, and I am not about to. neither is the SNP.

      People are trying to push all this ‘settled will of the people crap’, for their own reasons.

      I regard the blatant bullying and media propaganda prior to the vote as part of what ensures the result is most definitely NOT the ‘settled will of the people’.

    169. John D aka Nkosi says:

      I don’t want Devo Max as I don’t want WMD on my doorstep and I don’t want dragged into “Illegal wars”. Full Independence is the only thing that will satisfy my desire.

    170. jacksloan2013 says:

      On Friday Afternoon I got a letter from Ed Miliband. I am not and have never been a member of the Labour Party. I presume it went out to all party members and sorry it this has been previously posted. I will not attempt to unpick it as I am sure the readers of Wings are more than capable.

      Jack,
      I am delighted and proud that the people of Scotland have made this historic decision to stay in the United Kingdom.
      This was a vote for social justice, for our NHS, and for unity — because we are better together.
      There must be stronger powers for the Scottish Parliament, but we must also change the way the UK is governed and who it is run for.
      We need more good jobs and job security. We need decent wages and an end to poverty pay. We need a better future for our young people so they can believe they can have a better life than their parents.
      There will be many across Scotland who are disappointed today. I am determined to show those people that the Labour Party can be the place for all our aspirations for fairness, our families and our country.
      The last few weeks have been about keeping our country together. The next eight months will be about showing how we can change our country together.
      There is only one party that can do it — and that is the Labour Party.
      Jack — we need your help if we’re going to change this country. Are you with us?
      Thanks,
      Ed

    171. BuckieBraes says:

      I think we need to stem this growing ‘it was the grey vote wot lost it’ attitude; even if, statistically, it appears true.

      During the campaign, some of the most passionate advocates of independence I knew were men and women in their seventies – particularly women.

      On the other hand, I also came across classic examples of middle-aged ‘Thatcher’s children’ who couldn’t see the point of independence and feared its implications for their lifestyle.

      Stereotypes aren’t helpful.

    172. Meindevon says:

      Think a copy of that article should be put through the door of every union backing newspaper, every no backing party office and every house sporting a no sign.

      I am gutted about the result. I think Scotland will get shafted and it looks like it has started already. There is one chink in that it looks like Cameron has made things very complicated by trying to placate lots of irate backbenchers re the WLQ and more devolved powers for everyone and his dog. It could go horribly wrong for him and the SG and the good people of Scotland which will include the ones who will soon realise they have been conned must be ready to strike.

      I have to return to England tomorrow and take the flak from all those that said it would never happen and been proved right. Oh well, I’ll have a stiff drink on the plane home and grit my teeth on landing!

      Good luck all, please don’t give up…especially you rev. We need you.

    173. Craig Murray says:

      Morag at 10.11 pm

      “I hope Craig Murray is as far away from this as possible. Just my opinion”.

      I genuinely have no idea what motivates you again to come and say unpleasant things about me on this blog without explanation.

      A great many of the readers here will have seen me speak up and down the country. I delivered leaflets, canvassed, knocked up, invigilated the count. Almost every Wings reader has visited my blog which – and I am far behind Stuart – has the second highest readership of any pro-independence blog. Hundreds of thousands viewed my speeches on Youtube.

      I am not going to stop working for my country’s freedom just because Jack Straw wants to ban it (and remember he personally sacked me as an Ambassador because of my opposition to torture). I really do not think you should be allowed to be so rude about me on this forum unless you are prepared to say what you think I have done wrong.

    174. Muscleguy says:

      Straw doesn’t realise that frustrating a people’s democratic will means that their next recourse can include an armed insurrection. I’m not advocating that and I’m a pacifist so shall not be joining one but that is basically the only avenue that may be open to us if they try and do that.

    175. John D aka Nkosi says:

      P.S.

      I have never trusted postal voting

    176. Vince says:

      So, as per my previous posting with the postal vote winning it for the No campaign. Why do we accept the following on a vote in a local referendum which was meant to be “forever”!!
      It is possible to live anywhe

    177. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Gallowglass –

      “Do you believe that the fight was won ‘fair and square’?”

      Not at all, I have still barely picked myself up from it, but running around calling it oppression and a conspiracy is just not going to achieve anything.

      I’m delighted to hear that you’ve recovered from the crushing despondency. Now that you have picked yourself up, please tell us what aspects of the fight you feel were most unfair.

      I’ve still got two cans left, so…nae rush.

    178. Footsoldier says:

      On the topic of gathering our forces posed earlier, the ONLY means is the SNP, don’t start a rival party to divide us. If you are not SNP inclined, swallow your pride and join up, it is a broad church welcoming all with it’s core belief of independence. If achieved, you can do your own thing, meantime remain united, it is our only chance. Work away, it will take 5 years or so but our time will come again, with events maybe sooner.

      Don’t EVER forget it was Scottish Labour who were vehemently against Scotland becoming independent. It was Scottish Labour who betrayed the working class to keep their jobs in Westminster. It was Scottish Labour who recruited a failed prime minister to speak against independence. It was Scottish Labour who rejoiced when independence was defeated. What a lousy bunch.

    179. John H. says:

      @Keef – “How did No seem so confident the moment polls closed?”
      Keef, On the eve of the referendum I was contacted by an acquaintence (not a friend) who I hadn’t heard from in over a year.He is a card carrying tory.He gleefully told me that they had already won, and that I shouldn’t stay up all night worrying about the result.

      It struck me as very strange, because he wasn’t just confident, he seemed to KNOW that we were going to lose.I said as much to my wife at the time.This guy is a real creep, and couldn’t wait to have a gloat at a Yesser.

    180. gillie says:

      A crude attempt to wipe Scotland off the map.

    181. Croompenstein says:

      Too true Robert Louis, I’m sorry for offending anyone but come on we have a war criminal espousing that Scottish independence be made illegal and bleeding heart gallowglass throwing in the towel.

      Listen up the ‘union’ began to fall apart in 1707, this is another blow along the way but Scotland WILL be independent because we are not in a union

    182. heedtracker says:

      The one big thing you do is vote UKIP in Westminster. In fact join UKIP and vote UKIP. Nigel Farage is probably the most dangerous man for teamGB status quo and he knows it.

    183. Bob Sinclair says:

      Something just occurred to me given the success of the WBB and we all know that it really did have an impact. Wouldn’t it be great to crowdfund a book with contributions from people like Wee Ginger Dug, Derek Bateman, Rev Stu, Munguin et al, titled along the lines of ‘Voices of the 45’, featuring their best contributions to the YES campaign.

      In particular I’d love to see WGD’s ‘The Rain in Carntyne’ given exposure to more people, it was a piece of writing which had a huge impact on me.

    184. Nana Smith says:

      Plenty young ones on twitter voted NO and some are regretting it now.

      https://twitter.com/hannahrose2691/status/513388618342498305/photo/1

    185. Robert Louis says:

      Pentland Firth at 1059pm

      Well said, wholly agree. Do folks on here not know they are being wilfully goaded and wound up. Come on folks, you know better than that. Don’t indulge these clowns.

      Don’t let these people wind you up.

      Meanwhile, the cover of the Sunday Herald looks good, but I’m not sure I’ll continue to buy it, as it is part of what keeps the blatantly biased ‘daily’ herald afloat, to print garbage about the SNP and independence.

    186. StevieMcB says:

      Mobilize the 71% of the 45%, the i pad generation to remind all of the politicians & businesses who threatened us with allsorts if we voted Yes, not to expect their support or patronage in the future, removing monitory contributions will get them to sit up.

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/20/angry-brigade-social-unrest-james-graham

    187. Chitterinlicht says:

      Ca we please stop calling it Scottish Labour Party.

      It is the British Labour Party.

    188. S.McLaughlin says:

      Flash Gordon says come together ,What a joke after seeing that mob lastnight in Glasgow.
      There is deep bigoted views in Scotland Rangers with the union flag hinger owns and Celtic with there Irish flag hinger owns [I know folk from both clubs voted yes] However the quicker these 2 clubs go to the walls the better for us all.

    189. Piggy says:

      @ Robert Louis 10:39pm – Lots of good points. Excellent post.

    190. ronnie anderson says:

      Can we stop with postmortom leave that to the politicions unless im mistake none of us are,lets consentrate on regrouping & get up & running again.

      Kendomacaroonbar has a fundraiser for Radio/TV freeview / Magazine now thats what I call positive action onward & upward.

    191. Muscleguy says:

      @Craig Murray

      Seconded. As someone who met you on the campaign trail here in Dundee I can tell Morag that she is wrong about you.

      @Morag

      Are you aware that Craig was unwell through much of his campaigning for a Yes vote? Yet still he carried on at risk to his health.

    192. Sinky says:

      Who appointed Gordon Brown as the Tory Governor General of Scotland?

      Cracker from Derek Bateman

      http://derekbateman.co.uk/2014/09/20/here-i-come/

      5000 new SNP members since Thursday and 2000 more Scottish Greens.

      We are not giving up and will Labour tell us how many new recruits that have signed up now that their bosom pal Cameron intends to deprived Scottish MPs from voting on English matters in House of Commons?

    193. James123 says:

      @Chitterinlicht

      Can we please stop calling it Scottish Labour Party.

      It is the British Labour Party.

      Good point, should be BLAB from now on.

      BLAB definition: Constant annoying chattering which mostly consists of bullshit.

    194. DoziR says:

      There is a lot of info on the internet facebook re the rigged vote. People are getting in a state about it and need your help. If the stuff that’s on the referendum rigging site is cosha then they need help to prove it. If it’s just a wind up they deserve to know. 1.6 million people, maybe even more, have been hurt enough. They rallied behind you when you asked them to it’s only fair that you return that support. We are not lab rats.

      It’s not fair to if it’s true help them. I look forward to your help.xx

    195. fred blogger says:

      luigi
      you’ll perhaps remember the stories on twitter about some schools voting all no.
      well that turns out to be very unlikely, as 70% of the reg 121497 16/17 yr old’s voted yes.
      whereas 73% of the 1.2m reg 65+ voted no, voters who may have been in care homes etc, and/or were contacted by phone, and even visited.
      we know that they were also lied to about a whole range of issues, mainly pensions nhs, families, you can’t love your family and vote yes, and their social care.
      all of these issues are emerging on social media in the aftermath.
      they targeted that group, imo this needs real attention.
      they said things like 60m paying into the pot, which is a plain lie.
      http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/09/19/scotlands-vote-wont-be-the-last-battle-of-the-generations/

    196. Croompenstein says:

      @James123 –

      I heard Jackie Baillie is in FLAB

    197. Free Scotland says:

      Think of this: almost half of the people you meet as you move around Scotland voted for independence.

    198. John H. says:

      @Vince 10.53pm.

      I hadn’t seen your post when I made my last comment. You’re probably right. The tory guy who contacted me had more than likely seen the postal vote results, and that’s why he was so confident.

    199. A.N.Surgent says:

      Just remember the people, the people on the streets, had the british state on its knees. We have done it once and we will do it again. Scotland will be a free and independent nation, its only the time it will take that is in doubt.

    200. Lesley-Anne says:

      I posted this over on the previous thread but I think it is of suxch importance I am reposting on here. See what you think chaps and chapesses. 😉

      O.K. folks, this is from my partner’s Facebook page wonder what the legal eagles out there amongst you think. Don’t concentrate on the Lord Stirling thingy, apparently he’s not a real Lord whasit.

      On the face of it, if it can be confirmed as a legal route then I say we, Scotland, should go for it. More over if fraud can be confirmed in any way shape or form then we could be looking at Scotland being declared independent WITHOUT all the rigmarole of going through another referendum.

      Just a wee thought. 😉

      Lord Stirling

      Sep 17, 2014 7:37 PM

      If there is vote rigging to prevent a YES vote; there is a legal remedy for the Scots. In 1707 when the Treaty of Union went into effect, the sovereign Scottish parliament, known as the Three Estates, went into adjournment. It can be recalled by the existing regional Scottish Parliament. The Three Estates was made up of the representatives of the burghs (cities and towns), the representatives of the shires (counties) and the members of the ancient Scots Peerage.

      The existing regional Scottish Parliament are elected representatives from the burghs and shires, they only have to add the members of the ancient Scots Peerage (such as myself) to their existing membership and call back into session the fully sovereign Three Estates. That sovereign national parliament can declare fraud and proclame immediate independence of Scotland!

      Earl of Stirling

    201. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Chitterinlicht & James123 –

      re ‘Blab’/’Slab’.

      Youse are right, and I apologise for my repeated use of the term ‘Scottish Labour’. Such a thing doesn’t exist…(big facepalm).

    202. Clydebuilt says:

      They’rte shitting themselves for a backlash. That’s why were getting wall to wall Gordon Brown’s speech!

      They know all about what to expect better than we do!

    203. James123 says:

      @Croompenstein

      🙂 I can think of other words beginning with F to describe her.

    204. Vince says:

      sorry posted the start of this early at 11.06 by mistake.

      The potential impact of postal votes is shown up clearly in this referendum with postal votes winning the referendum for the No campaign.

      We should be concerned because postal votes are granted without question, so there are a very large number in circulation. They are readily open to abuse because someone at an address can use a postal vote for anyone who lives at that address without their permission, if that person is away from that address at the time of the referendum or if the potential voter had decided not to vote at the election and someone at their address knew of this. They are open to the pressure of the stronger characters in a household e.g. father over child, or care home staff over elderly patients. In addition, postal votes although allegedly securely stored on receipt at a drop off point can be removed or added to more readily by unscrupulous personnel.
      I’m not saying any of this went on, but I find it difficult to understand the logic of a system which allows this potential for substantial abuse.

    205. handclapping says:

      @Vince
      This was the last vote using the old registration / postal vote system. It will have changed by GE2015.

    206. Robert Louis says:

      Muscleguy at 1119pm

      Don’t worry about Morag, She has a bit of an issue with Craig murray. Most people here have come to ignore it, when it raises its ugly head. it’s not worth arguing about it.

      I and virtually everybody else wholly agree with you regarding Craig Murray, he is a really good guy, and a very good speaker, who played a very important part in the independence campaign.

      So, don’t worry you are completely correct.

    207. fred blogger says:

      Lesley-Anne
      as long as the earl does not become defacto regent of scotland.:-)
      i expect the SNP et al will be fishing around as well.

    208. Bob Sinclair says:

      I can’t speak for any of the other Wings referendum agents but in Glasgow I saw nothing that gave me any cause for concern.

      The staff at the count seemed really committed to a fair count & at one point I witnessed a ballot box being counted 5 times because of a +/- 1 paper discrepancy.

      Its likely that in this instance it was due to the ballot paper being placed in the wrong box which was a plausible possibility given the layout of the polling station which I had visited earlier that day. Another possibility is that the ballot paper was not put in the box by the voter.

      With regard to fraudulent votes – before the count commenced all referendum agents were informed that 10 votes had been identified as fraudulent, more than likely due to ‘personation’. The specific ballot boxes into which these papers may have been placed were identified and the count of these boxes carried out by staff wearing gloves to protect evidence with the papers being counted face down. I saw one instance of such a count and witnessed the fraudulent paper being identified and placed in an evidence bag. Apparently criminal proceedings are under way regarding these fraudulent votes.

      I have no reservations whatsoever about the integrity of the count staff. Maybe other Wings referendum agents could share their experiences.

    209. Ron says:

      @Luigi 10:53pm

      If 70% of people aged 65+ voted NO on Thursday, and 70% aged 16-18 voted YES, then many YES voters must have a grandparent that voted against their dream.

      Clearly the demographics have shown us that young people are very engaged with the independence movement and anecdotally I can tell you that the vast majority of my friends and acquaintances under 30 are yessers, and the two young committed nawbags I know both voted yes on the day. However I fear that unless we reach out to them then we will lose their support and interest as quickly as snow aff a dyke. We need to do something as a movement to keep these young voters engaged.

      What Alex Salmond was saying about this being a ‘once in a lifetime’ opportunity is fine if you’re in your 50s but are we really telling our 16 year old – and younger – supporters that they face another 60+ years of Westminster rule? That they have had their chance so should just give the whole thing up as a bad job and get on with a life of benefits and food banks? I am in my 20s and the thought that I will never see an independent Scotland in my lifetime is just too bleak to contemplate.

      I really, really want to do something to engage and encourage younger supporters of independence before they drift off or the media gets to them but I really don’t know what. Ideas anyone?

    210. Croompenstein says:

      @Bob – I can’t speak for any of the other Wings referendum agents but in Glasgow I saw nothing that gave me any cause for concern

      And Glasgow voted YES 😀

    211. Vince says:

      Thanks handclapping at 11.41.

    212. CalumCarr says:

      Should there be an EU referendum and the vote is to stay in will Straw then say,

      Let’s preserve our Union in law to stop UKIP tearing it apart. The European Union may be unbalanced but, hey, it works‘?

      Of course, the liar, hypocrite and war criminal won’t.

    213. Mealer says:

      We need to build a consensus around devo max so that Nicola can argue for it with the weight of the majority at her back.The SNP are going to need a lot more members,which appears to be happening,but more importantly an awful lot more activists prepared to put in a bit of work.We also need people in the unions to stand up and force their unions to support devo max.

    214. Nana Smith says:

      Straw wants his son to take over, same as Kinnock and Blair. Political dynasties ruling everything is exactly what Bilderberg want.

    215. DoziR says:

      Ref to John H comment

      I watched the whole thing from start to finish. They were all really confident from the start and smug as hell after the second count was given. They announced their victory party by about the third count. xx

    216. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Bob Sinclair –

      I was at Ayrshire South count, in The Citadel, along with Jim Thomson, Betty Boop and other WOS worthies such as Doonfooter and Gaavster.

      I saw nowt dodgy, apart from Brian Donohue’s hair.

    217. Bob Sinclair says:

      Vince,
      Your suggestion that someone else could use a postal vote presupposes that they would be able to replicate the signature held when the postal vote was applied for.

      It may well be that some people tried to do this but attending the PVO I saw many mismatched signatures which had been rejected firstly by the scanning technology which were then checked manually.

      The staff checking the signatures were all trained in signature comparison and having talked to some of these staff it is apparent that faking a signature is not as easy as making it look similar to the untrained eye.

      Whilst two signatures by the same person may differ, the direction of travel of the pen will not, and this is one of the keys to identifying fakes.

      One of the staff took time out to explain this to me and showed me examples of how signature identification works in practice.

    218. It’s a wipe out! says:

      “The demise of social welfare legal aid in figures”

      “It’s a wipe out!”

      http://ilegal.org.uk/thread/8658/latest-legal-figures-social-welfare

    219. Robert Louis says:

      Ron at 1144pm,

      Alex Salmond made it very, very clear that his comments on the vote being a once in a generation thing, were his personal opinions – was actually asked such a question by the press. So, don’t worry, the SNP exists to achieve Scottish independence, it’s what they do. I can’t for one second imagine Nicola Sturgeon will have worked so hard for independence, to turn around now and say oh, well, never mind, let’s just make do.

      At the end of his press conference in Bute House, he himself said, he expects Scottish independence within his lifetime – and he’s 60 on hogmanay!!

      Don’t worry, things will get moving again pretty soon, then we’ll all be busy. Stick with it, or even consider joining a pro indy party, like the SNP, Greens or SSP.

      I personally am working for nothing less than independence. This isn’t the end, it’s just the beginning.

    220. fred blogger says:

      Mealer
      no way!

    221. Bob Sinclair says:

      Devo-Max my arse.

    222. Lesley-Anne says:

      fred blogger says:

      Lesley-Anne
      as long as the earl does not become defacto regent of scotland.:-)
      i expect the SNP et al will be fishing around as well.

      Thing is Fred, as many know who have been here a while, I’m no lawyer. If I was I’d have been debarred long ago. 😉

      I think if you ignore the Lord Stirling guff, as I say he is not a REAL Lord, then all we need, as I understand it, is for some pukka evidence to surface and then the current Scottish Government can in effect declare Scottish independence as a result of the electoral fraud.

      I just hope some real hard indisputable evidence of vote tampering can be found and the Scottish government does then go down the road of recalling the Three Estates. That would bugger up Cameron, Clegg and Milliband good and proper. 😛

    223. liz says:

      @heedtracker could you please archive these guardian articles cos many of us are not giving the MSM any traffic.

    224. Onwards says:

      @Footsoldier says:

      On the topic of gathering our forces posed earlier, the ONLY means is the SNP, don’t start a rival party to divide us.

      I agree completely.
      The SNP are getting thousands of new members today.

      I know we had a lot of Labour / Green support, but if you want more powers for Scotland, then the only practical way is to get over 50 SNP MP’s at Westminster to hopefully provide the balance of power.

      Ed Miliband won’t make a difference.
      We all saw how the UK Labour party worked for the Tories, to keep Scotland down.
      Red Tories / Blue Tories. No difference.

    225. crazycat says:

      @ Bob Sinclair

      I attended the East Ayrshire count, and would agree with you that it was scrupulously fair. At one point signing off the tally was delayed at one table because a box contained 3 too many ballot papers (after several recounts). When the box from the other polling station at the relevant polling place, being counted at another table, duly contained 3 ballot papers too few, it was agreed to accept both totals. But they waited as long as was necessary for that second total to be ratified before accepting the first one.

      I also witnessed postal vote checking; there was no scope for someone using a ballot paper sent to someone else unless they were spectacularly good at forging signatures. There were a few sad cases where members of a family had used each other’s votes by mistake; both halves of each pair were rejected because dates of birth and signature did not match those on the postal vote application; it was very thorough.

    226. Vince says:

      Bob at 11.53
      Thanks Bob, and that is good to know. I still think the processes of registering for a vote and registering for a postal vote or proxy vote were to easy for this referendum and that there were far too many postal votes in circulation leaving them open to the kind of abuse that doesn’t exist when someone has to physically turn up and vote. Maybe not quite so important when you are voting for something that can be changed in five years but critical when it is something that may last many life times.

    227. fred blogger says:

      Lesley-Anne
      no i’m not ignoring it just thinking what’s his angle and jesting.
      it’s interesting, cos i have no doubt the contents are true.
      🙂

    228. Devereux says:

      I attended the count in Glasgow. I am very surprised at the 75 per cent turn out – there was far too much engagement in the city for it to produce the lowest turnouts. I also saw a box of postal votes emerge. In my gut? They looked off. Cant say why. Neater and heavy black pencil marks. Kindove uniform. This was at the start of the night when I thought we still might win. However, I don’t see any point in pursuing this – we can’t prove it and would just alienate people who voted No. We need them not to feel too guilty to join us again one day – not get entrenched defending their decisions. re devo max we have to start thinking with our HEADS like WM bstrds. Devo max IS independence by the back door. It normalises power in Scotland and pulls the parliament in policy away further from Westminster. We battle for that and a Scottish media and when the time comes, we will win.

    229. Tartan Tory says:

      Bob Sinclair says:

      I can’t speak for any of the other Wings referendum agents but in Glasgow I saw nothing that gave me any cause for concern.

      You know you speak for me too Bob. We lost Angus and I know there was absolutely nothing underhand about the count.

      Will people PLEASE stop following the conspiracy theory. It does our cause no good whatsoever. The council I was involved with did an astounding job. The laws of averages state that almost half the counting staff and the officials were YES voters. I know a few of them personally, so it’s not a guess. It’s not rocket science. The people who voted for No were our friends, relatives and neighbours. Get over it! I’ve spoken to a few already who told me they were voting Yes a few weeks ago, but they bottled it on the night.

      I’m as upset as anyone, but we have to keep the heid here. Crying foul because some teenager has posted-up some guff on Facebook is not the way forward. Persisting with it on here only makes us all look stupid. People like myself and Bob were commisioned by the Rev to look after all our interests. We did it, dilligently. We gave up our work, our business, our time and we saw nothing underhand. Now accept it from people who were there on the ground, on all our behalfs, at the postal vote openings and at the counts.

      For all you know, the ones posting their crap on Facebook are planted there by the unionists in order to promote dissent in our ranks . DON’T FALL FOR IT. Rise above and move on.

    230. Devereux says:

      We should now swing behind a Devo Max banner and pull along the 55 with us.

    231. heedtracker says:

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2763363/No-Glasgow-Tourists-booms-Edinburgh-Inverness-Aberdeen-Scotland-independence-vote-wounds-time-heal-largest-city.html They wont stop until they defeat all of Scotland that dared to not be UKOK

      I thought the Press and Journal was as ukok fascist as it gets but Daily Heil cant be beat.

    232. fred blogger says:

      Devereux
      no way!
      even if it offered anything which it don’t, the concept has been kicked into the very long grass that is growing in a silted up loch.
      why waste anymore energy on nothing?

    233. RogueCoder says:

      Been reading comments here and on Twitter with interest. Heartened by #the45 response today – but agree with those that say this is a nonsense name. It needs to be something inclusive.

      I think the danger here is that Yes groups will break up amid internal disputes and ideological differences. We need to focus on objectives – give people targets they can focus their energies toward attaining.

      In my opinion, we lost indyref for one reason: Labour. They still have a hold over people in Scotland, and we need to break that. Scotland will never be independent as long as any of the WM parties have a significant foothold here.

      The Greens, SSP, Radical Indy et al backed Yes because they all saw an independent Scotland as a means to achieve their own goals, whether that was a Green agenda, or a more socialist society. Absolutely nothing wrong with that; it’s called Democracy. What we need to do is use those vehicles – and the SNP – to oust Labour from every position possible, be it Westminster MPs, MSPs, or councillors. We need to kill the Labour party in Scotland stone dead (to coin a phrase).

      I have no problem with that, but some here might. I suspect plenty of Labour people read Wings and support independence. I guess many want to reclaim the Labour party. What I’m saying is that we can’t do that while WM is running Labour in Scotland. The Labour party as it is today is toxic; it’s corrupt, self-serving, and all too willing to roll over for their WM masters. It needs to be put down.

      Kill Labour, and with the Tories all but gone and Lib Dems relegated to a minority, then independence is attainable. Might take 10 years, but it is a perfectly reasonable goal.

      We need to organise ahead of the GE and get the message out to die hard Labour supporters; their party betrayed them, betrayed Scotland. We cannot trust them to act in Scotland’s interest. We need those people to vote tactically for the SNP (a hard sell given their ingrained dislike), Green or SSP candidates – whoever has the best chance of unseating the Labour incumbent.

      When we get an indy Scotland, the Labour party can be rebooted/restarted under its founding principles, and one day form a properly centre-left Scottish government. We have no chance of that happening with the current shower of shite operating under the “Scottish” Labour banner. They need to be shown the door, ASAP.

    234. liz says:

      @Ron – you need to join twitter – I only did that about 3weeks ago to keep in touch with WfI to find out what was happening.

      There is plenty of activity and ideas on there about where do we go from here.

      Everyone has now got a 45 on their avatar.

      Tommy Sheriden, Lesley Riddoch, Ian Mc Whirter, etc etc

      People are banding about ideas and Bella, National Collective, Derek Bateman are discussing coming together to organise a new independent media outlet.

    235. DoziR says:

      97% reported turnout. I find it hard to believe. There is probably more than 3% of the population with dementia, in mental hospitals, in prison or busy dying. People stay of the register for a reason they don’t want to be found don’t want the debt collectors at their door. The only thing counted was paper slips, the thing most easily manipulated. Loads of things were supposed to have happened to the paper, stolen, household with little children receiving them. Some of the videos on line are of people switching piles around and one of a young man sitting filling forms in.

    236. liz says:

      @heedtracker, ARCHIVE please. I am not reading any of these MSM articles.

    237. fred blogger says:

      DoziR
      no 84% turnout 97% reg to vote, which means 16% didn’t vote.
      🙁
      http://ayesay.wordpress.com/2014/09/20/forward/ i like.

    238. Ron says:

      Robert Louis @ 11:55:

      Thanks, I just really don’t want to all the momentum the Yes campaign has built up wasted, especially with younger voters. We all saw how soft no votes converted readily into yes in the last weeks of the campaign once we explained what independence could bring to their lives but I’m worried that in a couple of weeks as life moves on they’ll all just return to normal mode and the 45% clamouring for independence will drop back into the 20s and 30s.

      The media talk about how politically engaged Scotland has become but it will be very easy for folk to end up completely disengaged when independence has been ‘put to bed’ in a few months by WM and the MSM. I want to do something, I must do something to keep this going but I don’t know what yet. I joined the SNP last night, after I eventually collected my thoughts enough to do anything at all other than shake with rage and shame. I should have joined as soon as I was 18.

    239. Chic McGregor says:

      Sorry to say I told you so folks, but I did, I really did, many times over the last 10 years or so and of course many times recently.

      The Straw man is a logical non active choice like the usage of Brown last week.

      The US and India are poor deflections, this plan was concocted in Canada by Canadian and UK civil ‘servants’ at the time of the ‘Patriation Bill’ culminating in the re-jigging of the Canadian Supreme Court to pre-empt local difficulties with Quebec.

      However, our get out card is the shifting sands of international law. Most notably in the fairly recent case of Kosovo.

      UDI is no longer deemed to be illegal, and the UK was one of the very first countries to recognise Kosovo.

      They might be able to swing leaving the ECHR but can they do the same with the ICCPR? I doubt it.

    240. Lesley-Anne says:

      fred blogger says:

      Lesley-Anne
      no i’m not ignoring it just thinking what’s his angle and jesting.
      it’s interesting, cos i have no doubt the contents are true.
      🙂

      I suspect he may one of those folks who have *ahem* bought their Earlship via E-Bay or somewhere. Apparently it is easy to do, so I’m told. 😉 The trouble is now he has his *cough* Earlship he thinks he is one of the REAL Earls and therefore he can be involved in the Three Estates thing and make a bit of a name for himself. 😛

      Sorry I didn’t pick up on your jesting. Unfortunately jesting and stuff like that do not travel well through the ether otherwise known as the internet. 😛

    241. Cag-does-thinking says:

      It’s taken a while for me to get my mojo back but the orchestrated events of Friday night have given me a bit of focus. If I were going to rig a vote I wouldn’t do it at the end, I’d do it at the start. Anybody look at the new additions to the registers in detail? Anybody here got access to a register (old) and a register just before the vote? I had thought that we had lost fair and square but somebody somewhere put that little show on Friday together and my antennae have begun to twitch that it wasn’t amateurs and despite having no love of the Orange Order I think they were used as a patsy by darker forces. This might not be over, that candle just began to flicker again.

    242. Vince says:

      Tartan Tory at 12.10,
      I have moved on if your words were in part directed at me and I am not crying foul. I believe I am making legitimate comments about a lax voting system which need not exist in the 21st century and which has as part of that system encouraged postal and proxy voting to try and give elections/referendum higher turnouts and therefore arguably greater democratic authority. It is not unreasonable to suggest that if these voting elements were reduced and controlled differently then suggestions of vote tampering could be more readily be answered/discredited and thus avoid some of the conspiracy theories that have been raised arising in part from the difference in the voting patterns of those who voted by post and those who voted on the day.
      Thank you for providing your input on the subject though, it is good to hear.

    243. Jim Murray says:

      The next Holyrood elections must have to be fought on integrity of Westminster promises during the Referendum. If they have not been delivered their is a clear mandate to take the same question back to Scotland, especially if Yes parties win a clear or even strengthened majority. Jack Straw, (best friend of Condalisa Rice) is an utter embarrassment…

    244. Tartan Tory says:

      @ Vince

      Nothing I said was directed at you personally. 😉

    245. Calgacus says:

      @gallowglass, I am the nutter as you so kindly put it who mentioned that Russian observers at the count had seen many irregularities that drove them to the conclusion that the vote was rigged. Do pray explain how that makes me a nutter.

    246. Mealer says:

      Devo max.
      No currency worries.No interest rate worries.No food price hike worries.Not cutting the ties completely.The aliens won’t get us.Already well supported among Labour voters.It might even attract a bit of support from our older folk.Get behind it and push it.Union branches are a good place to start.Particularly in Glasgow and Dundee.
      We must have something to focus on.Devo max is it.

    247. Wullie B fae Skye says:

      #gulliblefeartiebastards, believed in more powers in “79, and again in 2014, cant teach an old dog new tricks springs to mind, no longer a Scotland, only North Britain,I will hang my head in shame if I ever hear flower of Scotland again, on 11 Nov we remember our fallen, on 18 Sept we should remember the day Scotland passed away in its sleep

      #45

    248. Chic McGregor says:

      Lesley Anne.

      I’m afraid he is just the chosen vehicle for the leaking of a long established strategy. See my last post.

    249. Robert Peffers says:

      @john king says: 20 September, 2014 at 8:53 pm:

      “The wifes looking at venues for a wings night out and found that the Labour party had their night out on the Royal yacht Brittania.”

      Did not Andy Murray open a
      Hotel just recently?

    250. Lesley-Anne says:

      Calcagus, It may have been you who actually linked to this in the first place but if it wasn’t here is a link concerning the Russian Election Observers.

      http://www.infowars.com/russian-election-observers-westminster-rigged-scottish-independence-vote/

      Chic McGregor says:

      Lesley Anne.

      I’m afraid he is just the chosen vehicle for the leaking of a long established strategy. See my last post.

      Thanks for that Chic. All I have to do now is go a searching for your last post. 😉 I may be gone some time folks but have no fear I SHALL return! 😛

    251. Calgacus says:

      @tartan tory, thank you for your hard work at the count but I still have trouble believing that these postal votes were all genuine. I know you saw signatures that matched etc. but you cannot know that they were genuine as many frauds could have been committed before the votes arrived at your location.

      After all the Labour party has a long ignoble history of nobbling postal votes.

      The British state is in an existential crisis and is quite capable of electoral fraud.

      This fraud would be a relatively minor crime to neocon war criminals.

    252. Kenny says:

      Thankfully, despite some healthy arguing on here, we all have the same ideas of what we want an independent Scotland to be like. In a way, “Scotland” itself does not come into it, i.e. nothing national. I would say we all want a country without weapons of mass destruction, without foodbacks, without bedroom taxes, without poverty (especially child poverty), the oil fund being used to provide free healthcare and education, no foreign wars, close and good relationships with Europe, no isolationism, no Daily Mail hatred and bigotry, no unelected peers (and, obviously, following from that no monarchy, especially some German import). These views are embraced by one and all, from the SSP to Business for Scotland. Thank goodness there are no splits in our ranks over fundamental issues. That means there is more of a chance of getting an electoral alliance underway between the SNP, Greens, SSP, etc.

    253. Chic McGregor says:

      Auld Bob

      I think even Wings supporters would baulk at the prices. It is at the very high end of the cuisine league,

    254. lorna cruickshank says:

      I know that one of the strengths of the YES campaign is the diversity of its political opinion however we must get rid of the Scottish Westminster troughers as a first move.
      The election is too soon for any credible alternatives to arise.We musn’t dilute the vote.SNP have the party political machinery to win Westminster seats from Scottish lab/libdems.
      We need to vote SNP at the UK general election and return a full house!By the time Holyrood election rolls round we might have a rainbow Scottish parliament.
      If we wish to have an impact we may have to put aside any political differences and play the long game (again).

    255. Kenny says:

      On the subject of rigged or not, what I want to know is: why the hell is postal voting allowed in the first place, unless you can show you will be away from home or are ill?!? Surely it is a recipe for cheating, whatever the case?

    256. creag an tuirc says:

      @Mealer I think devo max is where this should go, but I’d change it to ‘Home rule for Scotland’ as they are banding ‘Home rule for England’ about down South.

    257. Kenny says:

      Wouldn’t it be wonderful if Holyrood could introduce a newspaper tax? A tax on all rags sold in Scotland, from the Daily Mail to the Guardian? And the money raised spent on providing free wifi and updating internet services. And on enhancing social media!

    258. Chic McGregor says:

      Kenny
      Concur with nearly all of that, but there is more. Scotland still has a. just about, savable unique national perspective at a deeper level than just wealth distribution issues – as important as those are.

    259. Chic McGregor says:

      Kenny
      Re your newspaper tax. Why base anything on such a rapidly dwindling resource when we have oil? 🙂

    260. Chic McGregor says:

      Fuck! Have I just done the first post referendum smiley (on the non dark side)?

    261. bookie from hell says:

      don’t think jack knows about scottish parliament

    262. Chic McGregor says:

      Nope, I see not

    263. Chic McGregor says:

      bookie from hell
      Scottish Parliament is recallable at any time this side of a formal federation.

    264. heedtracker says:

      @ Liz, https://archive.today/yhxQw I belong to Glasgow.

    265. Tony Little says:

      I wrote my own thoughts about the vulnerability of the postal votes quite some time ago. I feel I have been proved correct. However, before I go all “clever” can anyone clarify this comment I saw on Twitter. It was claimed that the postal votes, all 800,000 of them, had been sent to London for scanning before being returned to Scotland. (Apparently this was confirmed by a Royal Mail official). Is there a way to confirm or deny this?

      IMO if (it’s a big IF, but not completely dismissive) any rigging took place, this would have been the place to do it, and not on the day by shuffling a few ballots here and there. The videos look “odd” and suspicious, but might be explainable. In any case I do not think it possible to, for example, swap 200,000 votes without attracting some attention.

      Those attending the counts seem to be satisfied, so that only leaves the postal votes.

      But without ignoring this, let’s refocus on stage 2 – eliminating Labour as a political party in Scotland.

    266. Chic McGregor says:

      Actually I believe Russian observers have been highly critical of the counting procedures but then again one might expect they would say that.

    267. crazycat says:

      @ Tony Little

      It certainly isn’t the case that all postal votes were sent to London; when I was observing the scanning process, ones delivered to the council head-quarters by voters were brought straight up to the room with the scanners.

      It doesn’t need to be all of them, of course.

    268. CRAIGthePICT says:

      FFS give it a by with this devo max pish and have a bit of self respect and remember we are a nation.

      The goal of full independence is still there for the taking. We have interesting times ahead, bringing down the unionist useless Labour party, seeing the mass uptake of alternative media and hopefully a pro-yes daily newspaper, non-payment of licence hitting beeb where it hurts (btw cancelled mine today) hitting people like Asda where it hurts (btw a list of businesses to be boycotted linked to direct quotes would be appreciated).

      DO NOT SETTLE FOR SECOND BEST, WE THE SCOTS ARE CLOSE TO REGAINING OUR COUNTRY. KEEP THE FAITH.

    269. Scotty Land says:

      Better watch what we are saying about Jack, he has a nose for detecting WOMD. Last time he thought there was some somewhere they invaded Iraq. Maybe he and the Yanks will invade us “Rebellious Scots to crush” (As Gordon, Ed, Joanna etc etc National Anthem says). Maybe they will take the WOMD from us, aye right!

    270. S.McLaughlin says:

      Wake up people, We need to focus on

      No1 Get Scotlands own tv channel/media setup.

      Snp got slaughtered by the London media on a daily basis from channels that are broadcast in Scotland the sheep believed them .No impartiality by the media.

      This should be a priority before we do anything else other wise it will be a pointless exercise.

      2.The 45 that has been setup needs to be changed to reflect other voters ie no voters joining or else this is a pointless group.

    271. Calgacus says:

      I will never forget the night of the count watching a super smug Ruth Davidson saying that she had seen the returns from the postal votes and she was confident of victory. This was before a single result had come in!

      Kellner was then quoted as being 99% confident of a no victory.

      This was quite obviously a narrative being constructed with the collusion of the state broadcaster to prepare us for defeat.

      It’s a pity for them that they are such poor actors, maybe they should have got advice fron Holywood.

    272. TD says:

      Look guys – we need to stop taling about electoral fraud. There was no conspiracy – the problem is simply that not enough people supported the proposition that Scotland should be independent. That is the fact of the matter and we need to focus on the real problem rather than these imaginary problems.

      So how do we convince a majority of people that Scotland should be independent?

    273. crazycat says:

      Also, since the outer envelopes were all sealed, to have changed anything by taking them to London would have required ballot papers (original or substitute) to be reinserted after scanning into new envelopes with the correct identification numbers – these numbers were checked when the inner envelopes with their attached signature slips were extracted from the outer envelopes. This is not impossible, of course, but would require significant time and personnel to do 800,000 times.

      It would also be tricky to send in a fake vote in case the real one also turned up; where a replacement ballot is requested the earlier one is disallowed; getting the timing right to cancel out an “undesirable” vote would be pretty complicated and probably require collusion from the counting officials. I don’t believe they would do that.

      Easier would be the inclusion of imaginary voters on the roll, followed by application for a postal.

    274. Guttersnipe says:

      Whats the problem here? We already knew this was on the cards Christ we’ve spoken about it often enough on these boards. How moves would be made to stymie the Scottish Parliament and the people who vote for representation there. Its certainly no surprise to me. Its just a question of how far they think they can move the goal posts. Heaven forbid that they interfere with the democratic right of their own voters.

    275. TD says:

      “talking not taling!”. Sorry.

    276. Calgacus says:

      @Tony Little. Wow just wow, that is a game changer. Rev.Stu can you investigate this, if our postal votes went to London all sorts of dirty tricks could have been done.

    277. crazycat says:

      @ TD

      I agree; in the last sentence of my post below yours, I am not trying to suggest that I think this happened.

    278. kestral says:

      god stop

      this conspiracy theory guys please- 45% of your people including the police and counters were there at the counts

      stop honestly – and build on what you did – get a fecking grip

      you only need to make the noers rue their choice and you have a 75% mandate for scotland

      get a fecking grip on this conspiricy crap and drop it –

      MY 18 YEAR OLD WHO PUT SO MUCH INTO THIS VOTE AND WAS SOOO UTTERLY DEVASTATED AND TONIGHT I HAVE TURNED THOSE YOUNGSTER AROUND AND THEY KNOW WHERE THEY CAN WIN IT AND FECK THEY HAVE THE STRENGTH – EASY NOW – WELL YOU VOTED FOR NO BET YOU WISH YOU’D VOTED YES

      so please don’t feck us with it’s a fix – do not go there people or you will truly end this movement

    279. Calgacus says:

      @The Earl of Stirling, my noble lord, may I thank you for your revelation. This is a perfect constitutional solution for all parties, both Scotland and the rumpUK..

    280. bookie from hell says:

      Keeping devo + off ballot paper to kill scot nats has backfired badly

      High turnout and 45% 1.6 million(I’m estatic now)

      not even 36 hours and Wesminster are having nightmares

    281. awayanbileyerheed says:

      What I have been waiting for, a definitive plan: http://www.facebook.com/groups/709478639101948/permalink/709973502385795/

      Lets get started

    282. Lesley-Anne says:

      I have read a lot on twitter about the 800,000 papers Tony. I didn’t know that they were ALL the postal votes though. 😉

      My first question has to be WHY were they sent to London for scanning?

      What were they scanning for?

      I do agree with you about this being the ideal situation to create the voting fraud.

      Chic McGregor says:

      Actually I believe Russian observers have been highly critical of the counting procedures but then again one might expect they would say that.

      I linked to a piece earlier on Chic about the Russian Election Observers, here it is again. To be fair though, if anyone was going to recognise voting fraud then surely someone who comes from a country that has regular accusations of election fraud would be ideal. Let’s face it, if we have election observers who have only witnessed or overseen UK elections where there has been NO election fraud then they would not know what to look for. However, if you come from somewhere where election fraud is considered *ahem* normal or expected then you are going to be more likely to recognise it, at least in my view you are. 😉

      http://www.infowars.com/russian-election-observers-westminster-rigged-scottish-independence-vote/

    283. crazycat says:

      @Calgacus

      For the postal votes to have been scanned in London and returned, they would have to have been extracted from 2 envelopes and then replaced in the correct inner envelope (which has the signature/date of birth slip as an integral part which gets torn off along a perforation for the verification) and sealed so that it was not obvious it had been opened, and then put in another envelope bearing the correct serial number (which need not have been the original) – 800,000 times.

    284. Colin West says:

      The Obvious Point to rig the Postal Ballot would be right at the start of the process, with the application process. Fraudulent Voter inserts correct details for a real voter and notes in Section 3 that they want the Ballot delivered to a different address. Fraudulent voter then signs the Form.

      They then sign the Postal Ballot and send it off. Signatures match, so it breezes through the verification process.

      And if the real voter turns up at the Polling Station to vote, well, tough luck, they’ve already voted by post so get turned away. I recall seeing mention of this happening over at polling stations in Fife.

      So, question is, what percentage of the Postal Ballots were delivered to a different address to the Registered one?

    285. Wullie B fae Skye says:

      #gulliblefeartiebastards, believed in more powers in “79, and again in 2014, cant teach an old dog new tricks springs to mind, no longer a Scotland, only North Britain,I will hang my head in shame if I ever hear flower of Scotland again, on 11 Nov we remember our fallen, on 18 Sept we should remember the day Scotland passed away in its sleep

    286. Calgacus says:

      @kestral, we are not talking about at the count we are talking about before the count. What is wrong with being suspicious of Westminster?

    287. kestral says:

      get a fecking grip on your stupid conspirisy therios guys

      christ i would rather you admitted your people voted no “just because” they were scared into it

      but if you guys are gonna start all this crap about vote rigging

      fuck sake how does it feel to be BT – YOU WILL JOIN THEIR
      RANK IF YOU PLAY THIS GAME

      THE VOTE WAS RIGHT AND HONEST AND GOD SAKE GUYS TELL ME WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS

    288. I have no problem with the Scottish Labour Party getting their just deserves. That said ‘Labour for Independence’ that is another matter. It would be nice to think that those right minded individuals could be assisted to reclaim the Labour Parties true values which would assist the people of Scotland. Perhaps a breakaway party could be the answer or a movement towards the SSP who often played a stormer.

      I fully expect whatever Wasteminster deliver on the more powers front, if anything will amount to nothing. Perhaps guys like Tommy Sheridan could perform well in that arena

    289. twenty14 says:

      been on this site for over 2 and half years now and learned to smell shite – so any negative comment I’m regarding as troll because anyone else would be pissed off and angry

    290. TD says:

      It would be very convenient if we could explain the result of the referendum by proving that there was a fraud. It is much more uncomfortable to accept that we did not have the support we needed.

      We can burn a lot of energy pursuing the fraud theory and then get on with the real job of convincing more people to vote yes or we can just get on with the real job of persuading more people to vote yes.

      I vote for getting on with the real job and not pursuing the conspiracy theory – it’s going nowhere.

    291. John O says:

      I noticed some mentioning steaming tv great idea and Robin Macalpin was discussing it on bella, but many older voter’s don’t use the internet, so maybe use townhall meetings to show the streamed tv, as the attendees would already have had msn news through day and then go to the meetings to hear the other side plus they could discuss the news from both sides just a thought.

    292. Calgacus says:

      Thanks Colin West for that information, a FOI request might be in order there.

    293. crazycat says:

      @ Calgacus

      There is nothing wrong with being suspicious of Westminster, but I just don’t believe it is realistic to suggest that postal votes were scanned; there are several separate verification stages, all of which would need to be taken into account to prevent detection.

      It may be that there is detection equipment capable of scanning the envelope unopened, and discriminating between the different layers of signature slip and folded ballot, to determine how someone has voted. But then what? To substitute a different vote would require opening the envelope (back to the problem in paragraph 1); discarding undesirable ballots in sufficient numbers would affect turnout.

      Colin West’s suggestion seems to me to be the only way to rig a postal ballot apart from registering imaginary people.

    294. twenty14 says:

      @ Kestral – so you obviously believe the Iraq War was legal ???

    295. Colin says:

      Just watched the Scottish homecoming advert, it made me quite ashamed.

    296. Calgacus says:

      I have noticed 3 or 4 posters criticizing suspicions over the postal vote. I will say it again, where is the harm in checking that we had a free and fair election? That is part of the democratic process. I am not saying we won, I am not saying there was a conspiracy,but I do have the right to discuss this matter with my fellow posters.

    297. Scotty Land says:

      TD, there was no problem with the numbber voting YES, this was amazing and a party who could muster these votes in Scotland would have been unanimous in Parliament. The problem was the No’s. It was The labour party, Orange Order, Fascists any right wingers you can find. Scaremongering media, Banks, Big Business etc etc etc. All you needed was six percent not getting hoodwinked into a devo max thingy, Vows, media spilling out lies about pensions, jobs and all the other bollocks. Only six people per hundred and the country was ours. If there was another referendum tomorrow it would be a greater majority for YES this time. See the apologists already and reversed statements etc. I have heard many NO people say they wish they voted YES but not one YES voter saying the wish they voted No.

    298. Wee Alex says:

      It won’t be long before the lies are exposed and people start to realise they have been duped.

      In the meantime if I were in SNP, I’d be willing to take part in Devo talks. Provided genuine Devo Max is on the table – everything except Defence and foreign affairs. Others may disagree. Even then, I’d be asking for a UK referendum on retaining Trident. If the rest of UK only knew the true cost, they would be horrified.

      Please SNP, don’t walk away from Devo talks, call their bluff and expose the Devo min nonsense for what it is.

      I don’t think just saying it won’t be delivered on time (or at all) will wash with people. Be seen to participate.

      I’ve toyed with joining SNP and might but only if the tactics are right. No’s already regretting their decision. Let’s show them leadership.

    299. Calgacus says:

      @crazycat, thanks for pointing that out. All I can say is they have the resources and the motive to do this kind of thing. Trillions of dollars of oil would trump any notions of fair play with those troughers

    300. TD says:

      Scotty Land

      Sorry, but there was a problem with the number of people voting yes. It wasn’t as big as the number voting No.

    301. Kevin evans says:

      Vote rigging blaa blaa – fear is a powerful weapon – that’s what lost us the refurendum – fear pure and simple – just look at the fear put on the USA Micheal Moore exposed on his film 9/11 and it’s power – supposedly the most democratic country on the planet – ya get folk scared enough they’ll do anything – let this play out – watch it crumble – do something positive like am doing – volunteer at a food bank.

    302. Kevin evans says:

      Don’t let the media paint us as extremist butters – 45% of the vote is not going to reduce – but if were extremist nutters it will – devo max failure will add to 45%.

    303. James Dow says:

      Taking this kind of imperial attitude, viewed from afar, It is totally amazing how Britain has been spared judicious political assassinations considering the eminent qualifications displayed by prospective targets for those it offends.

    304. Wullie B fae Skye says:

      The Naive believed in more powers in “79, and again in 2014, cant teach an old dog new tricks springs to mind, no longer a Scotland, only North Britain,I will hang my head in shame if I ever hear flower of Scotland again, on 11 Nov we remember our fallen, on 18 Sept we should remember the day Scotland passed away in its sleep

    305. schrodingers cat says:

      it is possible for the postal vote to be tampered with, i remember reading about glenrothes

      i doubt that claiming the vote was rigged will change anything

      wiping out labour in 2015 will though
      westminster renaging on the devomax promises will allow us to paint them as the liars they are and justify having another referendum before or after the eu referendum, this is a better plan than crying cheat, as it will be demonstratively true

      the yes movement is organised and a well oiled political machine, if we can get the same participation level in elections as we did in this referendum, bear in mind that the unionists will get the usual 55% election turnout share, we will replace all mps, msps and even councillors before the eu referendum with yes supporting parties,

      we need to support a different media, tv, radio and newspapers before the referendum arrives, but it is at least a plan,

    306. Doug says:

      Chick McGregor@ 12.31

      Is this the case you are referring to?

      http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/141/16010.pdf

    307. It’s late in the day, or starting time if you’re a milkman, but I’ve just watched a recording of Friday’s Daily Politics programme (yeah, I know) with Andrew Neil. Couldn’t find on YouTube, but maybe still on iPlayer. Check it out folks! They are tying themselves in fucking knots. I ended up trying to transcribe some of what was being said but it takes ages. But a wee taster:
      Diane Abbot:…to be quite honest, the proposals we are talking about today were drawn up by Gordon Brown in the heat of what appeared to be a losing referendum battle …
      AN: … called panic?
      DA: …you can call it that but I couldn’t possibly comment …if the Labour Party is not seen to deliver on what GB promised we will pay a price.

      This is just a sample and a shock to see and witness them more or less admit Scotland was duped into voting No, and as if no-one in Scotland might just be watching?

      The whole programme is a revelation and Andrew Neil does a decent impressipn of the grand inquisitor. The heat is ‘off’ and the masks slip. The one word that haunts the whole programme is absolute UNCERTAINTY. All the unionist parties haven’t a Scooby about what they are going to do. This could take years to sort out is Neil’s summation!

    308. call me dave says:

      @twenty14

      I ignore gallowglass he reminds me of ‘the man from Putney Hill’.

    309. Malcolm says:

      I have had the tears, then the anger, tears again but now just a steely determination. Within 24 hours the WM promises have run into the sand. So 1.6m people are furious and the 300k waverers who lost us a nation are embarrassed. WM will treat us badly (leopards and spots) and Big Gordon, savior of the Empire doesn’t have the clout to deliver a pint of goldtop, never mind devomax.
      So I for one am going to remain politicized and active.
      We may be here again relatively soon.
      Remember if you took out the over 65s we won. The old voted for the past whilst the young voted for a future. That future is not erased, merely delayed.
      I never heard Jakie Baillie sing, did you?

    310. Alex Clark says:

      Oh Dear, I can understand people being upset at the result as I doubt their is anyone even here more upset than me.

      But as far as vote rigging goes than I believe that to be a crock of shit. I was at the opening of postal ballots, if they went to “London” then they went there after opening.

      We lost this time, get over it and come back the morn. What ever you do, don’t lose the plot. Please.

    311. call me dave says:

      Worth a look all the way through. Pre: resignation of Mr Salmond but after the referendum result.

      The referendum was lost but looks to me like the UK is breaking up no matter what and the vow will be worthless.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04hz89v/daily-politics-19092014

    312. Onwards says:

      Agree. Forget the voter fraud.
      Even if there were a few cases, it wasn’t enough to make up a 10 point difference.

      One aspect that needs to be considered is that chasing the traditional Labour vote so hard, cost too many middle class votes.

      For many it might have become a snobbery thing, instead of an aspirational thing.

      Of course the mass media helped, by painting YES campaigners as angry street mobs for the final weeks.

    313. Kevin Evans says:

      I guess a lot of the no were an anti snp thing – they laid that on thick in the weeks prior to the vote also – I know yes was a multi party thing but a friend of mine still refers to yes as snp even tho I keep telling him it’s not – some folk in scotland do hate snp Ya know.

    314. Jamie says:

      I don’t doubt for a second that Westminster would consider cheating. However, we have no evidence of this, so we shouldn’t claim that it happened. Even if it did happen – which, as I say, we have no grounds for believing – it would be a pointless, self-defeating exercise to complain. What do you think would happen? That they would have a re-vote? Ha! We know for a fact that the Treasury broke the law the other week by briefing journalists on commercially sensitive information, and the sum total comeuppance for that was ZERO. They won’t even have a whitewash inquiry, just move on as if it didn’t happen. Well, even if we had good reason to suspect voter fraud – which we don’t – they’d just ignore it and we’d be left looking like sore losers and conspiracy nuts.

      We lost the referendum. Scotland is still in the UK. I think that a lot of ourselves – including myself – got carried away with the euphoric creativity of the campaign; it was like we were already independent. So it was a very sore thing indeed to wake up and find that we had lost that independence in the vote. But we did, and that is the reality in which we have to live, at least for now. We mustn’t drive for a re-run of the last battle; we have to start shaping the next battle. Independence probably won’t come for a long time, but I don’t think that was our ultimate end anyway. It was a means to an end. Well, for now we need to start looking about for other means.

      As a former member (until yesterday), it pains me to say this. Let’s destroy the Labour Party in Scotland. Let’s make sure that we send as many SNP MPs as possible to Westminster. I’m a Green Party member now, but the SNP have the best chance there. Back at home, let’s do our best to put a broad coalition of Yes parties – SNP, Greens, SSP, and anyone else who’ll be a part – into power. Any progressive party that is based in Scotland and represents Scotland, not Westminster. ‘No’ voters will soon see how they’ve been lied to, and the unionist parties must be made to pay at the ballot box for their betrayal of Scots. Let’s take back the initiative and let’s start fighting the next battle, not the last one.

    315. Keef says:

      Morag.
      Why the pop at Craig Murray?

    316. Grouse Beater says:

      Those who voted No voted to have Scotland remain a region, a province in the eyes of Westminster, an interesting tourist destination.

    317. bjsalba says:

      @Free Scotland said:
      Think of this: almost half of the people you meet as you move around Scotland voted for independence.

      Since may of the elderly are not very mobile, and don’t get out much, it is likely that MORE THAN HALF of the people you meet on the streets, voted YES.

    318. Ken500 says:

      Some people are so weak willed they hate SNP. Because? It is a Party financed by it’s members. Ordinary people who care about their country and others. Who want a fairer more equal society and the vulnerable cared about. That is why they can do the best for the society. The SNP politicians (Alex Salmond) have more knowledge in their little finger than the lying Unionists. Funded by Interest groups, Banks and troughers. Fill their boots with public money while people are suffering and dying. People join the SNP so they can help others. People join Unionists Parties so they can help themselves.

    319. Mealer says:

      The population was hit with a tsunami of fear,yet still 45% of a huge turnout voted Yes.Ive been at this a very long time.The vast bulk of voters only got engaged in the last few weeks and their interest will be gone in a few days.We won’t see or hear from them until the next big event.But SNP and Green Party membership is surging at the moment.We will surely see a rise in the number of activists who will help do the mundane work required now.

    320. Gallowglass says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      20 September, 2014 at 11:06 pm

      @Gallowglass –

      “Do you believe that the fight was won ‘fair and square’?”

      Not at all, I have still barely picked myself up from it, but running around calling it oppression and a conspiracy is just not going to achieve anything.

      I’m delighted to hear that you’ve recovered from the crushing despondency. Now that you have picked yourself up, please tell us what aspects of the fight you feel were most unfair.

      I’ve still got two cans left, so…nae rush.”

      What’s the point, people like you are clearly still to emotionally charged to debate things at least rationally.

      I have said it was a crushing defeat that is difficult to deal with, and that is transformed into an immediate recovery..

      What’s the point in describing (again) what I feel was unfair, it’s clear you and your sidekick would rather scream about conspiracy than the reasons for failure.

      Bash on.

    321. So where do we go from here? First we need to keep Yes together. Second try to get rid of every Westminster MP who supported the UK. That would give us a possible back down there which would be big enough to perhaps make a difference if the election is close. Thirdly we have to the same at Holyrood. The only way to get any traction is to get rid of the Quislings. These people should be hounded out of office.

    322. Ken500 says:

      Gordon Brown just cost Scotland it’s Independence, for now. The person who cost the taxpayers £Billion. The elderly have the lowest pension in Europe, because of him. Ordinary people are now up to their eyes in debt, paying back debts they did not borrow because of him. He caused death and devastation all over the world. A lying public disgrace. Now he is still, tying to ruin Scotland with even more lies. A delusional psychopath. A lying, greedy, jealous, tax evader.

      The whole Party of Labour/Unionists should be run out of Scotland. Out of Holyrood and out of Westminster, until Scotland is free of the lying parasites. Scotland does not want anything from Westminster. The majority just want rid of it, and the lying, greedy jealous low lives in it.

    323. Ken500 says:

      SKY is going.

      They will pay for their treachery

    324. Ken500 says:

      Where’s the Chilcott verdict?

    325. Gallowglass says:

      Calgacus says:

      21 September, 2014 at 12:41 am

      @gallowglass, I am the nutter as you so kindly put it who mentioned that Russian observers at the count had seen many irregularities that drove them to the conclusion that the vote was rigged. Do pray explain how that makes me a nutter.”

      How well do you think we are going to get citing RT et al in a battle to prove that there is a massive conspiracy and that the vote was rigged?

      Are these few videos on facebook going to drag us all back to Thursday night and change the result?

      I’m not saying they aren’t concerns, but our agents say it was legitimate so no, we need to focus on pulling ourselves together and trying to effect effort against the media and not get stuck in some nut job conspiracy mindset.

      It is the worst place we can go after coming so close.

    326. heedtracker says:

      The fact is at least 900 thousand people registered to vote for the first time and having done that, didn’t vote. It’s such a huge figure it’s so hard to believe, it’s unbellievable. All the after polls from say that bilionaire tax dodging Lord Ashcroft in Belize explained who voted what but not the missing million.

      Why are so many No voting Scots so angry now? The only truly delighted I know are English voters which makes sense but here in Aberdeen at least, I have never seen such miserable winners as No vote Scots, UKOK fascist thugs in Glasgow excluded ofcourse.

      Scots I know abroad have been shocked and appalled by a Scotland that votes to not exist and run its own affairs. We’re a bad world wide joke now.

    327. Ken500 says:

      Hi Tony Little (Guardian – that disgrace)

      What happened to Meths? (Scotsman)

      Scotsman ex offices all boarded up. Going down the tubes. £300Million of restructured debt and growing.

      Maddox makes the ‘big’ time exposed on Fox News aka Sky. Forty pieces of silver.

      Sky is going.

    328. Tony Little says:

      Thanks for feedback over the London postal ballot question, I have no idea about the process for these votes and wanted to find an answer. I said on Twitter that these other odd count behaviours even if true, would not have changed the result as the numbers don’t seem possible and so it would have had to be the postal ballots if there had been manipulation of the vote.

      I agree we need to devote time looking forward, but if there is genuine possibility of fraud, don’t you think our fellow citizens should know this. Those who voted NO in particular. We are not supposed to be some “third world” democracy or dictatorship.

      As for “the 45” as a rallying call, I understand peoples’ resistance to this as it reminds the 55% what they “apparently” voted for. I say apparently until the potential vote rigging is completely put to bed. Maybe it WAS 55%, but 55% YES, What then?

      So if not “the 45” then what?

    329. manandboy says:

      HOW INDYREF WAS WON AND LOST

      VITAL LESSONS FOR THE FUTURE

      In the beginning, The FM said that a positive campaign would always win over a negative one.
      This clearly was not the case.
      Not when you have a huge elderly population.
      No 1 – 0 Yes

      The No Campaign as I understand it, was lifted straight from the Quebec Referendum campaign in 1995 in which No won by a nose.
      The methodology was tried and tested – and successful.
      The IndyRef No Campaign knew that if they did the same as in Quebec, they would win.
      The SNP failed to understand the No strategy, which was to target the elderly
      and as a result did not counteract it.
      No 2 – 0 Yes.

      With a very large elderly population in Scotland, the No Campaign targeted them specifically throughout and particularly prior to the issue of the postal voting forms.
      With relentless scaremongering, the elderly population,
      who are easily made anxious at the best of times,
      were scared witless at the thought of a change of money, remember decimilisation?,
      and threats to their pension
      which for so many is an essential part of their lives and must be 100% secure.
      Gordon Brown had them scared shitless.

      Postal votes arrived. Darling told the people to get them in quick.
      With fear and trembling the elderly obeyed
      and voted to stop these threats to their security from happening.
      800,000 postal votes, 70% of which were No,
      which is 560,000 No votes and 240,000 to Yes.
      It was already over – long before the polling stations were opened on the 18th.
      No 3 – 0 Yes

      The count.

      “It’s not who votes that counts but who counts the votes”

      Labour’s election motto for 80 years.

      With the Labour ‘vote rigging Machine’ spread throughout the country,
      The Yes Campaign did not have the numbers, the experience or the hardline fraud mentality,
      to stop Labour from ‘making sure of the result’ when the count was done.
      It was like lambs to the slaughter.
      No 4 – 0 Yes.

      The FM rightly condemned the No Campaign for spreading a message of fear and threats.
      But he failed, apparently, to understand that that message was precisely what was needed, from their perspective,
      to reduce the huge elderly population to jelly –
      and to cause many more to doubt.

      The Yes Campaign/SNP ought to have countered No’s strategy against the elderly
      with a precise, authoritative and reassuring rebuttal.
      But didn’t.

      To continue to complain about scaremongering through lies
      from the No Campaign was to miss the point –
      Yes/SNP should have poured much much more energy into protecting the votes of the elderly .

      Much more could be said about these issues
      and probably will be,
      but right now, we are where we are.

      But if, whatever comes, the Yes Campaign fails
      to learn from it’s failings in not taking sufficient care of the elderly vote,
      while not neglecting any other grouping,
      then quite possibly
      the same thing could happen again.

    330. James Dow says:

      chitterinlicht If they can dispose of their principles so easily, should they not represent themselves with a name more representative of their current status.
      The Loyal Unionist Party of Scotland.
      RIP Scottish Labour forever.

    331. heedtracker says:

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/11/referendum-registered-voters-scotland-four-million-97-per-cent So all these people of Scotlland having decided to take the very big deal of registering on the electoral egister then didn’t bother to vote. Dodgy in extreme.

      Then ofcourse there’s that whole last minute devo plan that Cameron and Crash leapt in with a few days before the actual poll that completed changed what hundreds of thousands had already voted on, which alone should,have voided the result. Not a chance. It’s the greatest teamGB robbery since the last one. No wonder Salmond quit.

    332. Albalha says:

      An anaylsis of the vote breakdown just shows how much the RIC mass canvas worked, RIC Dundee have released the Dundee figures for Yes; Happyhillock 75%, Kirkton 72%, Fintry 72%, Charleston 70%, Menzieshill 60%.

      But what happened in the SNP heartlands of Dundee East,(I’m told Broughty Ferry, Barnhill etc returned an unexpected 70% or so No) Angus, Aberdeenshire? Seems they’re happy to vote SNP but didn’t vote Yes.

      As others on here, and elsewhere, have said target one is to rid Scotland of Labour MP’s next year, let’s hope those in power on the Yes side will work with others to make sure it happens.

      I agree that the SNP may well be the main vehicle but doubt it can be the only one in all areas with a chance of unseating that miserable shower.

      I just hope we don’t end up with a range of Yes folks standing which allows the Labour candidate to get back in.

      Let’s leave that for the 2016 election.

    333. James Dowto a very different says:

      Heedtracker. Correct, here in Australia they are unbelieving that Scot’s could reject independence. But then they have been exposed to a very different Scot from Scotland’s current custodians.

    334. Dorothy Devine says:

      I have been thinking that it would be nice to crowd fund a billboard or two using those lovely pictures from Friday night in George square with a wee caption like
      ” The Silent Majority” or ” No Voters at Play” or
      ” The Pride of Britain”
      It seems these shy retiring, shrinking violent types need a wee bit more publicity than the media is willing to give – perhaps we could help them?

      Now those of you with personal vendettas against other YESSERS could you please zip it? You want to call someone a liar , or are jealous of their successes – do it to their face or hold they piss.

      I remain angry , bitter , old , sad , distraught and unlikely to be able to say YES at the next referendum as I am old.

      Ronnie , I’d drink that bottle of whisky if I were you – I have a secret plank of expensive malts and if you and I make it to the next referendum it’ll be one for you and one for me with a straw !
      I may share mine with some of my other favourites on here but Stu will get a crate!

    335. bjsalba says:

      Now they have to attack the ball – SNP. I hear that membership is up not only of SNP, but all the YES affiliated parties.

      By the way,my sister who lives in England was very anti-SNP and AS. She was upset that she did not have a vote. She saw the FM’s speech and was very impressed: now she has sees what I fine person he is.

    336. Paul says:

      Why are my posts not going up?

    337. heedtracker says:

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/11/referendum-registered-voters-scotland-four-million-97-per-cent So after years of lies and attack and fearmongerig and still selling their Salmdnd joke toy, the nice fascists say we’re all united again. At least the living horror that is the DailyHeil, you knew how low they were going to go but Graun is one of the many teamGB nightmares in all this. But it is a private business and they can do what they like.

    338. Internet at the moment is a problem. Has been for a while. Can’t help wondering if it is a coincidence or the refundum and social media activity slowing it down. Anyway my comment has gone awol.

    339. manandboy says:

      Paul says:21 September, 2014 at 7:35 am
      Why are my posts not going up?
      _________________________________

      After I press ‘submit comment’
      I usually have to wait for about 5 mins for mine to appear.

    340. Weedeochandorris says:

      @Robert Louis. “Meanwhile, the cover of the Sunday Herald looks good, but I’m not sure I’ll continue to buy it, as it is part of what keeps the blatantly biased ‘daily’ herald afloat, to print garbage about the SNP and independence.”

      You’re absolutely right! I was going to buy Sunday Herald today but they can shove it, just didn’t think before. We desparately need our own media, without it we’re struggling to reach everyone especially the older folks.

    341. heedtracker says:

      A total of 4,285,323 makes this the largest electorate the country has ever known for any election or referendum.

      The figure includes 118,640 voters who have registered in the last month alone, as well as 789,024 postal voters. It marks an increase of over 300,000 since the last Westminster election in 2012 and includes 16- and 17-year-olds who have had the vote extended to them for the first time.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29223984 BBC propaganda machine moves along like clock work and pretending it wasnt involved but where is the missing 800 thousand?

    342. James Dow A voice from the diaspora says:

      Croopenstein It’s probably better you and I never meet we couldn’t help ourselves. Bring it on we love it, I’m not sure which one of us would be the most dangerous, but together the mind boggles.

    343. Gareth says:

      @heedtracker Why are you assuming that the people who didn’t vote are the ones that registered for the first time? Since turnouts for elections are usually in the 40-60% range, isn’t it more likely that the people who chose not to vote were people who have been registered to vote for many years and who choose not to vote at elections too?

    344. Guttersnipe says:

      @manandboy

      Very few things happen in a vacuum.

      There is no political message that is strong enough to succeed on its own without a means to disseminate it. Think about it for a second but don’t think too hard because its really not that complicated.

      Its all very well you or I sitting at home, and during a eureka moment coming up with the be all and end all of political philosophies. If we never discuss it or forward these thoughts on to an other person then we’ll never know if it was workable for ‘ANY’ or not. We have to accept that division was sought by one side of the argument and by hook or by crook they found it. That doesn’t say that negative beats positive… it says the opposition were able to achieve their goal by getting their message out to the people they targeted with a greater frequency so as it had their desired effect and I’m not just talking about the MSM although that is most certainly a contributing factor.

    345. Ken500 says:

      Aberdeen the only City in Europe without a by pass road and a pedestrianised city centre, because of Unionists. It adds 2 hours to most peoples working day and costs the economy £Millions/Billions. Yet, many settled from elsewhere, vote NO, and give the Oil revenues away. Down £4Billion a year because of Osbourne/Alexander.

      England demands Home Rule and £10Billion of wasted revenues from Scotland.

    346. PickledOnionSupper says:

      Wingers! Important news! Just checked the Lib Dem website. Their autumn conference is 4-8 October 2014 at the SECC GLASGOW!!!

      How’s about we go down there and tut at them or something…

    347. Ken500 says:

      There were reports of people registering to vote (sending or handing in the relevant forms) but not being registered on the system. (Backlog or deliberate?) Could they be the missing voters? They did not receive their polling card.

    348. Joe Kinnear says:

      One – this is the true heart of the Labour party – they are as much of the WM establishment as anyone else and they are as deeply reactionary as the Tories.

      Second – the 55% voted against the idea of Scotland as a sovereign people in an independent nation. So they now have Scotlandshire – soon to be a mere region owned by Westminster forever and a day – the 55% of North Britons can go fuck themselves.

    349. Achnababan says:

      We lost the referendum because older citizens voted No.

      This was forseeable – closer ties to Britain, predictable scare stories about pensions and currency etc made it inevitable.

      Even so the grey vote was obviously a big blind spot in the YES campaign which focused on the future, engaging directly with younger age groups, through their high energy style of campaigning and enforced reliance on social media.

      Old people don’t like big crowds shouting and waving flags – it scares them, old people don’t have the internet…, old people cant/wont go to public meetings

      All of this is obvious so why where campaign resources not thrown at the grey vote? I think there are two reasons

      1. The grey vote was unlikely to be swayed
      2. The YES leadership have their eye on the next Independence referendum

      This gives me hope.

    350. Patrick Roden says:

      Very few people know this about Jack Straw, so please share it far and wide.

      While Jack Straw was home secretary, he secretly brought in legislation that made it illegal for children who were in care, to complain about being abused!!!

      He was on a phone-in show shortly after he done this and a guy came on and asked him about this, but Straw reacted by laughing while saying that it was all nonsense.

      Turned out it was true and it’s still law, so if you like me were always baffled as to how on earth children were being abused for a number of years and telling people yet nothing happened, now you know.

      Jack Straw was only one in a number of people in New Labour who had some very strange ideas about sex with children.

      if you go onto Youtube or Google and search for Jack Straw & child abuse legislation you will be sickened.

      You may also discover that PIE that the ‘Paedophile Information Exchange’ was a lobbying group who campaigned for the rights of paedophiles, they were funded by New Labour and Harriot Harman was a big supporter,

      Again if you do a search for Harriot Harman PIE you will be shocked what comes up.

      I think it might not be a bad thing that it has been Jack Straw that has been the first to come away with this, (someone will be pulling his strings, because they have ‘something on him’ I wonder what???)

      Let’s spread this far and wide because he has never been called upon by and media outlet or even opposition politicians at Westminster to explain why on earth he brought this law in and Westminster including the HOL have never explained why they did not oppose it.

    351. Achnababan says:

      Sorry there is a third reason:

      3) The YES camp got it hopelessly wrong (as ManandBoy cogenetly argues)…..

      Explanations required I think…..

    352. RMAC says:

      I think we are going of on a very divisive tangent with all of this talk about rigged ballots, whether they were or not is immaterial as they were counted and used against us. A huge amount of time and effort could be wasted that will be used against us by labeling anyone who propogates the idea as delusional. The question is how do we proceed and negate the possibility of this happening again… and I do think that is secondary to removing the power (where possible) of those who have a vested interest in retaining the status quo. We need to get rid of them by persuading those disgruntled labour voters not to support these people at the next elections based on the colour of their rosette. The internecine warfare amongst the no parties will return when their seats are in immediate danger and this can be used against them. Other things like links to the OO will not go down well after Fridays disgraceful scenes in Glasgow. The MSM can get away with their crap in rUK regarding this but I don’t know anyone who think they OO is anything but a thinly disguised group of thugs and bigots on the edges of terrorism.
      I also have what I am sure will be unpopular thoughts on PQ and demonstrations against their bias. I think this is a mistake as they and their friends in the rest of the MSM will either ignore it or misreport it as aggressive intimidation… lumping anyone who admits to having been there into the same basket as the OO extremists. Proof of this if needed is in how the events of Friday night in Glasgow were reported by the MSM. There is also the very real danger that what you saw in Glasgow on Friday will be repeated at PQ with tragic consequences… and even then it will not be reported fairly.
      We need to do this through the ballot box and the next elections are the place to let them know the candle has not gone out.

    353. Wullie B fae Skye says:

      I had posts not going up last night about 1am , just thought it was a problem with my mobile phone, also the last two weeks i have been working out of Invergordon and internet on mobile wasn’t worth a shite but since referendum I haven’t had much of a problem getting online

    354. Chic McGregor says:

      Tony Little
      “As for “the 45? as a rallying call, I understand peoples’ resistance to this as it reminds the 55% what they “apparently” voted for.”

      What about “VL” then, 45 in Roman numerals and could also stand for some appropriate words?

    355. Nana Smith says:

      @Patrick Roden

      See my post at 9.12. Too many of Westminster mps have much to hide.

    356. BB says:

      They don’t need to concentrate on rigging a vote when we know they rigged the media from the start and got more blatant as time went on…

      Fear, uncertainty and doubt was blasted at people, along with a thin thread of lies for them to grasp at in thier blind panic and desperation (the laughable “Vow” and promise of more powers). We know nothing will come of their promise of powers but those who were terrified or bottled it at last stretch would choose “something” (at end was spun by lying media as “Devo Max”) they thought would get at least a small sure gain than the “great leap of uncertainty”. Of course we all know they’ve chosen to join a political and economic suicide pact, but their motiviations were understandable even if misguided.

      The lesson is to prevent them from doing it again, just as we’d learn from any accident, crime or tragedy and use that knowldege to prevent it again. We need rational post-mortems of it all. If we point at conspiricies we’ll likely not spot our weaknesses and strengths or their tactics.

      The clear priority and next target are the coming elections. If we can utilise or newfound knowldege, skills and grassroots we can help hammer them in each of the elections and increase pro-indy parties share of votes. This will greatly improve our lot, strengthen our position in the future and also increase public confidence in those pro-indy parties. If we had more time and planning this is ideally what we would have done before the referendum anyway, but it caught everyone on the hop. Keep talking politics, but start aiming at the elections as the next staging ground and a very real victory. The incumbents have hugely weakened their positions with their behaviour in the referendum and will continue to do so after.

    357. john king says:

      Croompenstein says
      “@Gallowglass – would you please #fuckrightoff and take the bluedug with you, I don’t think I can stomach any more of your defeatist pish”

      Seconded!

      Tartan Tory says
      “I sincerely hope the SNP bods think tactically here, without considering their political positions, and play hardball for ALL of us.”

      Sorry, the time for hardball was when Alex Salmond filleted Darling on the BBC, thats when the gloves should have come off.

      Achnababan says
      “We are so busy setting up trendy YES groups for younger people we forgot them – where was ‘OAP’s for Yes’? ”

      Dennis Canavan did an astounding job getting the truth out there to the “greytops” but your right, he was just one (old) man,
      that needed a movement all its own.

      Gallowglass says
      “I’m sorry, I’m as heartbroken as you, but you can’t start running around saying that it is;”

      You just dont get it Gallowglass,
      we’re beyond heartbroken,
      we’re in planning next phase mode,
      shit or get off the pot!

      BBC 07.24
      Papers say
      “Gordon Browns “warning to Westminster”
      I take it GB is nailing his colours to the mast to demand (snigger) those new respons/sorry powers for Scotland,

      Can we take it Gordon that when In the immortal words they tell you to FUCKRIGHTOFF you will immediately join the ranks of the disenfranchised and lead the fight for independence?

      interesting that the headline in the daily fail is “DO NOT DARE ASK US AGAIN” in relation to Scots being asked to decide Scotlands future,
      the telling point was this apparently was the settled will of 52% of the population? first of how the hell did the Fail manage to poll people in the space of a couple of days to get that result?

      And secondly the percentage of Scots who voted no was 55% so in the space of a couple of days they have shed 3%?
      which means 48% of Scots want another go 72 hours after a bruising fight
      GAME ON

      Bob Sinclair says
      “In particular I’d love to see WGD’s ‘The Rain in Carntyne’ given exposure to more people, it was a piece of writing which had a huge impact on me.”

      I agree, that was probably the singlemost powerful statement/cry from the heart I saw in the entire campaign, I cant think about it without crying!

      Ronnie Anderson says
      “Kendomacaroonbar has a fundraiser for Radio/TV freeview / Magazine now thats what I call positive action onward & upward.”

      Just wanted to repeat it,
      thats all. 🙂

      Hing oan Ken,
      Im comin!

      Muscleguy says
      “Seconded. As someone who met you on the campaign trail here in Dundee I can tell Morag that she is wrong about you. ”

      I think (correct me if Im wrong Morag) its because she disagrees with Craig Murrays interpratation of the legality/illegality of Tony Blairs shift of the sea border, I think Morag beleives Murray is wrong and the line south west to north east that the land border follows would naturally follow on the sea rather than at right angles to the shorline, she may have a point but Im no expert on maritime borders while it has to be said CRAIG MURRAY IS!

      Robert Louis says
      “Don’t worry about Morag,”

      Dont diss Morag Robert,
      If she disagrees with Craig Murray you better beleive she has damn good reason to.

      Mealer says
      “We need to build a consensus around devo max”

      Over my cold dead body,
      Why accept second best when we are so close to getting it all?

      Any and all offers from Westminster will clearly have a sting in the tail which will see Scotland pay dearly for the privilage of collecting its own taxes.

      Ian Brotherhood says
      “I saw nowt dodgy, apart from Brian Donohue’s hair.”

      Your not suggesting it is a syrup are you? 🙂

      DoziR says
      “97% reported turnout.”

      Not really paying attention are we dozy? can I call you dozy? 🙂

      Liz says
      “@heedtracker, ARCHIVE please. I am not reading any of these MSM articles.”

      Time we ALL got smart here folks, maybe if the Rev along with more enlightened contributers set up a new page like “New readers start here”, we could get master classes in archiving, creating italics,avoiding embedding video’s (not so much of that now)getting registered on twitter to get the word out fast.

      If we want the rev to continue we ALL need to do our best to help,
      I not judging anybody Im one of the worst offenders.(albeit unwillingly) 🙁

      Chic MacGregor says
      “UDI is no longer deemed to be illegal, and the UK was one of the very first countries to recognise Kosovo.”

      Im with you on that Chic, get a huge majority for SNP in Holyrood and declare the settled will of the people is UDI.

      Calgacus says
      ” Russian observers at the count had seen many irregularities that drove them to the conclusion that the vote was rigged.”

      The trouble with that is Calgacus, who’s agenda would be best served by alleging a rigged vote more than Russia’s?

      Of all the vote rigging allegations that is DEFINITELY the last one I would choose to beleive.

      Rober Peffers says
      “Did not Andy Murray open a
      Hotel just recently?”

      Haaa thats worth looking into, trouble is Andy’s ahem coming out was very soft,

      He may not want to be publicly be associated with Wings Over Scotland.

      Lesley-Anee says
      ” I may be gone some time folks but have no fear I SHALL return! :

      Bring back chips, oh and a bottle of Irn Bru. 🙂

      Bookie from hell says
      “don’t think jack knows about scottish parliament”

      H knows Jack shit! 😉

      CRAIGthePICT says
      “FFS give it a by with this devo max pish and have a bit of self respect and remember we are a nation. ”

      I totally agree, lets not get bogged down with Labours semantics.

      Kestrel says
      “MY 18 YEAR OLD”

      You have an 18year old?
      you dont look old enough young lady. 🙂

      “wiping out labour in 2015 will though
      westminster renaging on the devomax promises will allow us to paint them as the liars they are and justify having another referendum before or after the eu referendum, this is a better plan than crying cheat, as it will be demonstratively true

      the yes movement is organised and a well oiled political machine,”

      schrodingers cat says
      Correct, and this folks is what will scare the shit out of them,

      They well know we have a huge ground swell of support, we just must make sure it doesnt drift away, the advantage they have is a smaller support base yes, but infinitly more experienced than ours,

      We need to learn to fight smart!
      I think the first step in “fighting smart”
      is to get the EU law changed so that “regions” who are fighting for self determination have the absolute right to invoke the protection of the ODIHR and not leave the power to ask for their involvement to the governments who the “regions” are trying to gain freedom from,

      So that never again can the Westminster establishment take total control of the narrative, as we will have the OSCE watching our back!

    358. wullie b fae skye says:

      Why the disappearing comments on here or the ones that don’t appear at all

    359. Nana Smith says:

      http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scotland-independence-referendum-videos-claim-vote-definitely-fix-1466219

      On twitter folks are saying there are a huge number of postal votes missing. Anyone heard anything about that?

    360. Ken500 says:

      The site is under attack and busy. That is why comments do not appear immediately or not at all. It is because of the popularity of the site.

    361. Wullie B fae Skye says:

      Seems they have gone up now, whatever the problem was

    362. Ken500 says:

      Hague buried/destroyed the Report of Westminster MP’s abusing children. Thatcher turned a blind eye.

      Hague pounced about with Joli, seeking publicity on anti abuse issues. Having covered up the Report. LibDems wanted people who covered up reports of abuse jailed. Starting with Hague?

    363. Chic McGregor says:

      Aye Doug. Bit of a landmark. Serbia thought they would win.

    364. Proadge says:

      Craig Murray has worked tirelessly for the cause of Scottish independence. His is an eloquent and informed voice, and he has greater insight than most into the reality of how the UK state operates. He is a valuable asset for Yes.

    365. Hobbit says:

      Here’s a set of problems we need to get our heads around:

      * Some parts of Scotland have do, and do, very well out of the Union. Notably Edinburgh, and Aberdeen has oil money; and Edinburgh’s vote for No was pretty decisive.

      * One comment this morning on the Scotsman was blaming all the foreigners/English in the city, in particular, and Scotland in general.

      * As a result, instead of complaining about the inequalities between Scotland and England, we need to address the ones within Scotland, as these are not really about the Union.

      The SNP needs to think hard about how to deal these questions. And if Big Eck couldn’t win his own constituency for independence, what hope did the Yes campaign have?

      And oh yes, does Jim Sillars own a million-pound property on Skye? One vicious Unionist lie, no doubt, but a clear answer would be helpful.

    366. Chic McGregor says:

      I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to anyone on the indy side I may have disagreed with and consequently upset over the years. There has never been anything personal involved, while I have been proven wrong many times, at the time of disagreement my criterion was always based on whatever I thought might best bring about independence at the time.

    367. Devereux says:

      @fred blogger
      Devo Max is a duff, granted. But there is still a section of voters (not as large as the grey vote) but significant enough that think they were getting Devo Max without bothering to find out what exactly it is. We might know it is not being offered but they still have it in their heads. We can’t re-fight a referendum yet but we can fight this. Westminster wants it put to bed like Independence but it is also its big weakness over the next decade. Not allowing Scottish Mps to vote on English matters in my opinion will happen. And in one fell swoop, there will be no more Labour troughers in Scotland. They won’t be able to sit on any cabinet or hold high office. And the next illegal war or financial meltdown ? It will be owned by the English. Hammering on about Westminster reneging on the pathetic ‘vow’ is a vehicle to continue presenting the vision of what Scotland is losing in the union. It allows us to hustle the north of England, Wales and N. Ireland into action and it will goad the English into wanting to personalise Westminster for themselves. We have opened a crack in the union and the great thing about cracks is that pushing will create more.

    368. John H. says:

      @Chic McGregor.

      I don’t understand why you feel you need to apologise Chic.You have always been polite, informative, and often amusing too.Maybe, like the rest of us, you’re feeling depressed at the moment.After a wee rest I’m sure you’ll bounce back.There is much to be done.

    369. manandboy says:

      In any court case, a verdict based on a tissue of lies
      would be overturned and a retrial ordered.

      So why not in a referendum authorised by Parliament –
      the highest court in the land ?

    370. Bill McLean says:

      Read last night that there were 5000 new SNP members – this morning I heard it was 800. Anyone have a factual hold on this?

    371. Footsoldier says:

      There is only 1 goal ahead right now, for “Yes” to win a majority of Scottish seats at the general election. The prime directive would be to try and stop the Westminster parliament passing legislation on any future referendum on Scottish independence requiring a majority of MP’s at Westminster to approve it first of all.

      It is more than likely this would be incorporated in any legislation altering constitution in England but would apply to the whole of the UK.

      Jack Straw has already suggested this in The Times.

    372. call me dave says:

      I think the YES guy on radio Scotland this morning said 8000 to Isobel Fraser.

      Also the greens are claiming 2000.(different source)

      The SNP had 5000 up to 16:00hrs Saturday.

    373. alistair says:

      @footsoldier
      I agree. One Yes Scotland or One Scotland banner for the next GE, with all parties under one banner, one candidate per seat, no vote dilution, parties keep their own manifestos but work together for the bigger prize. There’s a good chance Boris will be next PM or big group of UKIP Mp’s, Brown’s timetable will have failed with all parties putting it off until after next GE. There will be a huge opportunity for another referendum at that point. We need a strong Labour element for that to work (whether LFI or other). The SNP will not do it on its own.

    374. @ Devereaux

      Agree with your analysis on the faultlines that we can exploit.

      LEST WE FORGET :- BamCam,Clegg, Mibbeland,Krash and Flipper STOOD on the same platform as Farage and UKIP.
      Versus Scotland.
      Versus Freedom.

      UKIP is a massive faultline for BamCam.

      We lost the Ref by nearly the same amount of Scots Tory voters that live in Scotland (400,000).
      Scots tory voters who elected BamCam in 2010 on a MANDATE of Boundary Changes that Excluded every Scots tory from the House of Commons.

      Who were 400,000 Scots tory voters listening to during the IndyRef Debate because, most of the time their lone tory MP in Scotland was posted “M.I.A.”

      400,000 PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO PARTICIPATE AT WM and do not want democracy in Scotland – swayed the vote.

      Scotland was serially SHAMED by Scots tory voters.

      The same tory voters who, only last year , voted to ARM the Islamic State.?
      The Muppets now want to fight them with our blood and treasure.?

    375. Bill McLean says:

      call me dave – thanks for response. Cotton ears must have misheard woops she has just thumped my ear!!

    376. Bob Sinclair says:

      RE Postal vote fraud, once again I cannot speak for ther Wings Referendum Agents but I am taking all this conspiracy talk as a personal insult to my integrity and honesty.

      It is also an insult to the intrgrity of 45% of the people involved in the count and an insult to the integrity of Stu & Wings over Scotland itself.

      If you want to discuss conspiracy theories then I suggest you do it elsewhere because this is not the place. I believe David Icke has a website that might suit your needs.

    377. fred blogger says:

      Devereux
      i’m having tech problems atm with connection.
      i see your point, as long as you think there is now enough rope then fine?

    378. Dorothy Devine says:

      Chic ,a great idea VL

      Vanquishing Lies
      Vanquishing Labour
      Vocalising Liberty
      Verifying Loyalty
      Valuing Love, Life

    379. Rod Robertson says:

      People 1.6 mil voted YEs we need to keep them together a UK GE is 6 months away if all 1.6 vote SNP it is a landslide.
      Then no Unionist party dare renege on anything ,it really is that simple.

    380. Albamac says:

      You can’t pull a living plant up by the roots again and again, and expect it to survive“.

      Doesn’t know much about gardening, does he?

      If you want to create and maintain a productive and beautiful garden, you have to get rid of pernicious weeds. The best way to do that is to kill them at the root.

      Labour will be cast to the winds when Scotland separates the wheat from the chaff.

    381. Gallowglass says:

      @john king

      “You just dont get it Gallowglass,
      we’re beyond heartbroken,
      we’re in planning next phase mode,
      shit or get off the pot!”

      I’m all up for that, I just don’t see how a) it’s going to happen b) rigged votes is still a dead end and c) how we are going to stop the media from sliding Labour back in.

      Sure, lets all go mental and make a bunch of meaningless statements about how this is phase II, lets go, get on or fuck off etc.

      I think they’ll be more than a few more heartbreaks if we lose Holyrood as well which is the next greatest risk.

      The SNP are going to be hounded. That many of you don’t seem to like discussing the likely outcomes is absolutely beyond me. We just lost, we can’t pretend there’s another shot at it because there won’t be for some years. We need to concentrate on not losing our footing.

    382. 45 in Roman numerals is = XLV

      Thats what I am getting a badge made up with

    383. Molly says:

      Like you all I am still in mourning but I need to get this off my chest. The grassroots Yes campaign was enthusiastic, tireless and good humoured. As a mere voter I applaud them. However the message, reinforced by many of the comments here and elsewhere, was in my opinion, too partisan. The question “Should Scotland be an independent country?” became for many “Do you want to end food banks/Tory rule/social injustice/Labour/Monarchy etc etc?” This may have been a deliberate strategy to attract the disenfranchised (although it can be argued that with a measly 75% turnout in Glasgow it did not succeed) but linking “middle class” or “affluent” with something to be despised was a major tactical error. Stalls with “Yes” posters alongside “End Tory Rule” posters were hardly likely to attract voters from the leafy suburbs. A glance at the voting pattern shows this.

      All healthy societies need a range of opinion from Marxism to rampant capitalism and implying that those whose opinion is not left of centre are somehow not welcome in the New Order is what will never get us beyond 45%. The time to focus on social injustice was AFTER we became an independent country not on the hustings. For example, one commenter here wrote we should erect a statue to Tommy Sheridan. I despair. If the Socialist Worker mentality is the new Yes mentality we are all stuffed. I do not want to live in a one party state of any kind. Also, “blaming” the elderly is pointless as by the time we could even hope for another referendum the bright young “Yes”ers of today will be the new elderly. The people we need to convince are the middles and upper echelons of our country. Make no mistake, they will be there even in an independent Scotland.

      So let’s lick our wounds and instead of giving our grannies a good kicking start by getting your head round the fact that rich people also had a vote. Get out of this socialist utopia mentality and get real. Politics is hard ball. Be inclusive in the debate. Also please don’t be “45ers” as by definition you alienate the current majority. Simply put, a conservative who voted Yes is my friend, a socialist who voted no is not my friend …at least not yet.

      In the short term, the best way to send a loud clear message is to join the SNP!

      Finally thank you Mr Salmond. You worked your whole life for my belief and the people of Scotland let you down. I hope you find it in your heart to forgive us and remain as our spiritual, if not actual, leader.

    384. Andy-B says:

      Just holding my breath waiting for the Westminster backlash to come, and it will.

    385. ClanDonald says:

      Can we lobby the EU to create an identical law that will force The UK to remain in the EU for all eternity too?

      Wonder how middle England would respond to that?

    386. Blair paterson says:

      I think all postal voting should be banned that way there would be no suspicions about fraud ,only the medically unfit should have representives. From the main parties come to their homes all together and let them cast their vote in private That way they all know it was fair , it may take a little longer but it would be worth it in my opinion

    387. Hobbit says:

      No point in doing anything before we sort out what we screwed up. E.g. :

      But there was one flaw in the machinery. Salmond himself … The Independent has been told that another Saltire One (helicopter) was on stand-by again, and that triumphalist victory fly-ins, which included stops at Edinburgh and Stirling Castle, the spiritual home of Bruce and Wallace, were planned for today, all despite the party’s internal canvass returns showing a serious hesitancy from Scottish voters which Salmond kept well away from all his speeches.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-despite-defeat-history-may-still-point-to-alex-salmond-as-the-victor-9744674.html

      So they seem to have known they had a problem …

    388. lochside says:

      Straw: involved in extraordinary rendition of suspects; allowing mass murderer Pinochet to go back to Chile; repayments of four years of house ‘flipping’ in parliament etc. etc.

      Another corrupt imperialistic bully, to be resisted at all costs.

      We will not be incorporated into your stinking Union.

    389. thoughtsofascot says:

      Hi everyone, its late over here but I decided to chime in with a few thoughts about the aftermath, now that I’m feeling much calmer. some of these thoughts have been summed up in other places, some haven’t.

      First, screw Jack Straw, he can go climb a tree.

      Secondly, the fight has only just begun. We need to create a national coalition of parties. We used the SNP as our warhorse to spearhead the yes campaign, but that wasn’t enough. we were outflanked by the full might of the British establishment and defeated….but not routed. We need a coalition in place. A coalition of parties to agree on it together. The next referendum cannot be seen to have been brought to the table by just the SNP, as the last one was. Such coalitions of parties fighting under one banner are very common in other countries. Australia and Ukraine are but just a few where this is common. We ought to do the same.

      We need the parties to agree not to fight against each other in seats, so that we can have a united vote that will throw the Red Tory, Blue Tory and Yellow Tory scum out of Scotland in 2015. While they fight against each other and divide their vote, we sweep in and steal their seats from under them. SNP, SSP, Greens and whoever else is willing to fight under one banner.

      With a large block of Pro-independence MPs in Westminster we can cause havoc and make it very difficult for the inevitable UK coalition government that forms to actually govern effectively.

      We also need an agreement for Holyrood. All pro independence voters must vote SNP for FPTP, while they ought to vote greens or SSP or (insert new party here) for PR. The coalition would end up with a huge majority that would give us the power to force through a new referendum if we wanted to.

      We play the long game though. We don’t invoke that power yet. We spend the time between 2015 and 2017 formulating proper plans for independence, while building a bigger grassroots, absorbing disgruntled former No voters who realize the huge mistake they made as services get cut and friends and family lose jobs. The Tories will have their EU referendum in 2017 and they will win. the UK will leave the EU. This is when we strike. When the Iron is still hot. As soon as the EU referendum result is announced, our parliament uses this as an excuse to hold a 2nd referendum within 2 months( a short campaign to capitalize on anger in the business community and prevent Westminster from stacking the game against us again). Westminster will have done most of our work for us. EU and businesses are eliminated from scare stories. We should have a currency option in place by then too.

      Actually, I would go as far by setting that currency up in 2016. Replace the Scottish pound note banknotes issued by the banks with an actual real Scots Pound, backed in the same manner as the current Scottish pounds, at a 1:1 ratio with sterling and set up a provisional currency board as a formality.

    390. tonymac says:

      Calgacus MacAndrews says:
      20 September, 2014 at 8:41 pm

      It’s not just the SNP that is pulling.

      Here is a nice ‘Join a Yes party today’ poster to put in yer windaes, on notice boards etc. etc.

      http://i.imgur.com/KLfZMe6.png

      SNP have got 5000 new members in 2 days. Greens have put on 2000.

      #the45
      ————–
      NICE — IN MA WINDAE ..THANKS

    391. ticktock says:

      After the catastrophe of the 18/19th – one of the blackest and most shameful days in Scottish history – I’m starting to feel a bit better and dare I say it positive. That’s in no small part due to WoS and other real media.

      The enemy wants us to feel crushed, to think and and to accept that we have thrown away our one and only chance to achieve independence and that now we might as well either leave or put up and shut up.

      If I could leave for Ecuador or somewhere I do admit that I’d be considering it, but I can’t so for me it’s either get busy living or get busy dying. However on reflection, even if I was 30 years younger and worth at least twice as much and so could seriously consider leaving and setting up somewhere else, I don’t think that I would because if we don’t see this through to the end, there will always be a hole, an ache in our hearts and lives, wherever we are.

      If there was vote rigging, it’s not likely to have been done in a way that would have left any binding proof that it had taken place, so that’s a blind alley. However… just in case…there might be something in the allegation perhaps a few knowledgeable people could scrutinize the vote process but without making a big noise about it, so that if something proveable does emerge then they’d have waited till there was clear evidence of fraud before exposing it.

      What needs to be focused on now is growing that 1.6m to 3m.

      The WBB is an invaluable resource and distribution of it should continue as before, preferably if possible an updated version.

      Criticism of those who voted against their own country would be – to say the least – understandable but pointless and unconstructive. They’d like nothing better than to sow division and internecine hostility between different elements of Scottish society, so PLEASE don’t fall into that trap.

      I’ve seen some posts putting out ideas about the creation of a pro independence newspaper, (forget about “federalism”) aimed at anyone with an interest but also specifically to the offline demographic who have been deliberately denied access to verifiable info and facts which would have swung their vote the other way. I think this is a great idea which should be explored further.

      There’s also ideas about the creation of a new political party, presumably with the aim of uniting and growing the 1.6m. Whether that means joining the – renamed to lose the National(ist) tag – SNP or something like the Yes party (though it’s too early to know if that’s going anywhere) I don’t know yet but we have to begin moving fast to unify and grow the 1.6m.

      I don’t know yet if the Rev’s made a decision about his future direction, but I do fervently hope that he doesn’t give up on us. Obviously I don’t know for sure, but I have a feeling that he’ll stick with it and that they haven’t seen or heard the last of him. The Stuart Campbells of this world tend not to quit because the going just got tougher than it already was.

      The main thing that the Disunited Kingdom government wants to impress on our minds right now is that Independence is now somehow impossible to achieve, to just forget it and kneel before them in subservience, and they will of course already be taking steps to try to cement that but something like that only becomes impossible when you believe it to be so.

      And we are NOT alone. Many of the world’s more perceptive and insightful commentators are beginning to appreciate the magnitude of the media deception and psychological strong-arming of weak and ignorant individuals to vote against their own best interests.

      We have a dream, and dreams, hopes and aspirations can’t be legislated out of existence. Whatever steps they take to try to keep us down will fail if we make the fulfilment of that dream our unshakeable purpose.

      If we really believe in ourselves and our country, we will achieve that dream, quite possibly sooner than we might expect.

    392. Gary45% says:

      Hi, Sorry to bring up something else.
      Does anyone have a detailed account of which companies tried to sway the vote with threats of leaving Scotland e.t.c ?
      I saw a guy from Endura the cycling clothing company on tv before the vote saying he would consider moving.
      I will no longer be buying any of their products. Gary

    393. Croompenstein says:

      @Gary45% –

      This is the letter sent to the hootsmon on August 27th and the guy from Endura is indeed a signatory..

      http://tinyurl.com/kj8ycge

    394. Tabbycat says:

      I’m perplexed as to why people would vote No over uncertainty over currency but would be swayed by a ‘vow’ even though they weren’t actually sure what that meant either! Down, but not out. There is a lot of momentum still going so this needs to be harnessed into a clear direction, with the focus on independence and a clear strategy to combat all the media bias, lies etc. I am confident this will happen, and a lot sooner than we think. I hope Eck’s got a nice big spoon to keep stirring things up and keep Westminster running in circles 🙂

    395. Hobbit says:

      Criticism of those who voted against their own country would be – to say the least – understandable but pointless and unconstructive. They’d like nothing better than to sow division and internecine hostility between different elements of Scottish society, so PLEASE don’t fall into that trap.

      Agreed. The problem, as I keep coming back to, is the significant divide(s) within Scottish culture – not those between Scotland and England. Parts of Scotland do do very well for themselves, and Edinburgh is remarkable for the number of Europeans it’s attracted; they don’t have the ‘skin in the game’ as to whether Scotland should be independent (or not). Also, the city thinks it has far more in common with London than it does with Glasgow – at one point I saw s/o on the scotsman joke that if Scotland voted for independence, “Edinburgh would vote to stay with the UK, because it can’t stand the ‘people’s republic of west scotland’ “.

      We have much in our own house to sort out.

    396. Paula Rose says:

      Hobbit honey I’m getting concerned about your concern.

    397. def2401 says:

      I know I’m not the only person to point this out but the only way out of this mess is for everyone who voted Yes and any No voters feeling shafted by the “vow” nonsense to get behind the SNP for the General Election in May. If half the electorate votes SNP, they could end up with 45-50 seats in Westminster – and in a hung parliament might even hold the balance of power. They could then insist on proper, full blown fiscal devolution/ federalisation which might just work, at least in the short/ medium term. And longer term, it’ll give Scotland the chance to put a framework in place which will make independence much more straightforward in due course.

    398. Rock says:

      The SNP, preferably as part of an Yes Alliance, should continue to have a referendum on independence promise in its manifestos for all future elections.

      If it wins, another referendum must be held. Imagine 59 SNP/Yes MPs elected in 2015 on a promise of another referendum.

      The Yes movement is not going anywhere. I am now looking forward to another referendum as early as 2015.

    399. Franariod says:

      They cant preserve the union in law. The treaty of the union forbids it. And if they wanted too, it would mean another referendum which they could not afford on those terms.

    400. Franariod says:

      @ Hobbit, Edinburgh voted No because they believed the financial sector was in danger ( LIE ). Simple as that! Aberdeen voted No because they are in a bubble and believe oil was in danger (LIE) the borders voted No because they believed that farming was in danger and they wouldnt be able to get to morrisons in Carlyle or Newcastle without a passport (LIE). The highlands & islands voted No because of God knows!? LIES!!!! I cant believe my home region of west lothian was a resolute NO!

    401. Hobbit says:

      Franariod – thanx for replying to my points.

    402. Chris Baxter says:

      I haven’t read all the comments, but this nonsense that Jack Straw wants will never happen, if only because when you remove the option of democratic constitutional change, you leave only one option, which is paramilitary resistance.

      He’s a doddery old man who can be ignored.

      How’s your son, doing, by the way, Jack? Still dealing drugs?

    403. kerry pippin says:

      The full text of the article (subscriber only) is really interesting. Most of it addresses “we English” (in Mr Straw’s words) about the “West Lothian question” and its history in the Irish Home Rule Bill of 1893. He tells us that “English votes on Engish laws” was all suggested before, 121 years ago. From our point of view, some of the most important things Mr Straw writes seem to be:

      1. The 1893 bill led to many months of wrangling over the details until finally “English votes for English laws” was agreed to be unworkable. (Of course this has all been forgotten, so it looks like we’re now in for a re-run and, if David Cameron and his backbenchers keep insisting on it, Scotland’s future will be put on hold until they’ve realised it won’t work).

      2. Malcolm Rifkind in 2006 stated that “English votes for English laws” would be “a constitutional abortion” – strange choice of words, but an interesting quote in today’s context. I wonder what he’s saying about it now.

      Stu, would it cause you legal trouble if I post the full text here? I’d like Wings readers to be able to read it.

      As for the antics of the Westminster party leaders now, here’s a thought. We were told during the campaign that they had no contingency plan for a Yes vote. Now it becomes clear that they had no contingency plan for a No vote either!

      The conclusion is clear, and not surprising really; they weren’t paying attention to what was going on in Scotland until Yes nearly won. Now we have to wait for them to catch up, educate themselves about the debate that’s been going on in Scotland for years (decades), and argue between themselves about English matters, before they figure out how little they can get away with in terms of “extra powers”.

      And meantime we have to put up with silly ideas like “permanent union” as Mr Straw suggests in his article. As a former Home Secretary, he ought to have some sensitivity for how people in Ireland will feel about this: in the Scottish context, it’s offensive enough, but in view of the still-fragile Irish peace process, it’s dangerous, and a breach of the Good Friday Agreement as other posters have noted. I hope he’ll withdraw his “permanent union” suggestion now before UKIP takes it up, and keep quiet about things he (apparently) doesn’t really understand.

      Stu, thank you for all you’ve done and are doing: your work is at least as important now as it was before the referendum. Please keep it up.

    404. Jimmy says:

      That’s all right Jack!

      He suggests we follow the example of the US and India.. I’m cool with where those Countries told London and the Westminster Government to stick their rule. 🙂

    405. Brian says:

      Jack Straw’s words are a strange combination of ignorance and arrogance.



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