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A change of plans?

Posted on September 24, 2020 by

We saw something disturbing in Parliament today.

During a debate on the UK government’s recent decision to abandon the notion of gender self-ID, SNP MP Anne McLaughlin told the Commons chamber that it was still the Scottish Government’s “strong commitment” to go ahead with highly controversial reform of the law BEFORE next year’s Holyrood election.

But that isn’t what Scottish voters were told earlier this year.

In April the Scottish Government very clearly announced that the reforms were being shelved until after the election, and there was nothing about them in the Programme For Government published this month.

Has there been a sudden unadvertised change, or is McLaughlin – who is the party’s official Gender WooWoo spokesbeing at Westminster and ought to be well-informed on the subject – just a bit clueless? (Obviously it could be both.) We’ll try to find out.

.

[EDIT 3.22pm]

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    1. 24 09 20 14:57

      A change of plans? | speymouth

    2. 25 09 20 13:42

      A change of plans? – politics-99.com

    227 to “A change of plans?”

    1. P says:

      Thanks Stu, I missed that.
      I did wonder why she’d plonked herself down on the front bench though

    2. Jill Sharpe says:

      Oh not again are the SNP really determined to not have a majority in the next parliament.

    3. Sturgeon and her cabal are trying there hardest to lose the Holyrood elections.

      And if that thing in the HoC got it wrong it needs chastised.

    4. Andrew F says:

      Slightly watered down or tweaked “reform” maybe?

      Appease some people with a thin edge of the wedge in place to make the election win a “mandate to further ‘improve’ on our bold reforms”?

    5. gorgielad says:

      why are they still flogging this dead horse?

    6. Bob Mack says:

      No change of plans at all. This was always the plan.

    7. DickieT says:

      Gender Woohoo Wokesperson more like

    8. Beaker says:

      I had it on mute this morning due to work, as I thought since it was England there wouldn’t be much of interest.

      Probably both is the right answer to the question above.

    9. Sneaks in quietly says:

      Unbelievable, that’s it for Holyrood I guess

    10. Garrion says:

      Y’know there was once a time when the snp tried to be very clear to voters on whatever policy, position or course of action it was taking. Interesting how the velvet curtain of remoteness has come down, with the effect of “removing” their direct answerability. Power corrupts, etc.

    11. Graeme Hampton says:

      If they pass that misogynistic piece of rubbish before the next election there will have to be a list indy party on the ballot or I won’t be voting for the first time in 30 years.

    12. callmedave says:

      Aye!

      I posted an archived bbc page from yesterday on a yesterday thread saying it was all off until after the election and then it would be dealt with.

      Who to believe?

    13. Robert Dickson says:

      I am so fucking sick of this small but influential group of charlatans trying to con us with back door manoeuvres.

    14. Dream Brut says:

      Stu, are you on Twitter at all now?

    15. Mist001 says:

      I got this yesterday in my email:

      “Good afternoon,

      You are currently registered as an overseas elector. A new declaration is now necessary if you wish to re-register.
      Your Overseas Renewal can now be submitted online at http://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote
      Your registration is due for renewal by 04/12/2020, but an earlier return date is advised
      In case you do not wish to renew your registration online but would prefer to submit a paper application, I have attached an application to this email. I will also post an application to your correspondence address shortly.
      Please note that if you renew your declaration online, you need not return the paper application.

      If you would like to return your paper application electronically, please email it to enquiries [at] lothian-vjb [dot] gov [dot] uk. I should like to point out that as a signature is required, you must complete and sign the document prior to scanning and e-mailing it to this office.

      Kind regards”

      I re-registered this morning just so that I won’t vote for anyone next year. In otherwords, I have the vote, but I’m not going to use it.

      Unless there’s something like the Monster Raving Looney Party or something. Oh wait……….that would be the SNP!

    16. Ottomanboi says:

      If this continues.
      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18743352.nicola-sturgeon-pleas-westminster-powers-needed-fight-coronavirus/
      and if there are ever again elections in Scotland the SNP, along with the rest of the political establishment could be in for a traumatizing shock.
      The under 25s have certainly had enough.
      Rather than rejecting the unfree spirit of the British State, the clique running the SNP appears to be embracing it, with its own dictatorial add-ons.
      The road to hell is paved with such delusions and obsessions.

    17. Harry mcaye says:

      James Caithness – that’s quite a disgusting piece of misogyny from you, which is kind of ironic on this thread.

    18. Grouser says:

      I was given a categorical assurance by my MP that neither the Gender Bill or the Hate Bill would come before the Scottish Parliament before the end of the current life of this Parliament. I feel a query to said MP coming on. I will not vote SNP if either of these bills are advanced in this Parliament. And that is a great big heartbreaking statement for me to make.

    19. Sharny Dubs says:

      They seem to have a death wish

    20. lothianlad says:

      yep, a very devious and underhasnd SNP SG utterly determined to force through these highly controvertial and unpopular policies.

      wonder why?

    21. Willie says:

      Make no mistake the minority gender woo woo coterie are provoking a tidal wave of resentment within the ranks of the membership.

      Added to the resentment flowing from the leadership’s undermine of independence, their brutal and vile attempts to destroy opponents it is not at all certain that the SNP will take as many seats as they think they will. From hero to zero the SNP are on the same road as New Labour.i

      Indeed, as an SNP supporter of more years than I care to remember there are now candidates who I would find it impossible to vote for. Angus Robertson being one. Shirley Anne Sommerville, the above mentioned Anne McGlouchlin to name a few.

      But the vile malign part apparatchiks like Peter Murrell or Susan Ruddick are two party employees who I could not now ever work with. In fact I don’t think I could even stand beside a scum bag like Murrell – who is in overall remuneration terms paid nearly £200k a year. Put frankly, put that bastard near any decent SNP members and they’d likely be unpleasant scenes.

      A body guard for Peter do I hear. Well it needs to something better than his wife. The guy should be dead meat – politically speaking of course. And then there are the malicious Salmond shambles to be paid for.

      So message to wee Sturgeon as she treads the boards with her Coronavirus stage show. What you gonna do about Peter?

    22. Dave Beveridge says:

      “Vote for us as we’re the only game in town if you want independence. Oh, and by the way, it comes with all these add-ons that nobody in their right mind would want anything to do with.”

      The MSM are clearly keeping their powder dry. Just wait until they start going hell for leather on this in the run-up to May.

    23. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Article updated.

    24. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Yet another reason to add to the ever growing heap of reasons which illustrate the rudderless nature of this irredeemably fucked up gravy-boat.

    25. GrumpyMark says:

      I assume wishful thinking on Anne McLaughlin’s part.

      As recently as 3 weeks ago Ms.Somerville was asked

      “Proposed changes to the GRA have been delayed but the furore between those that support the changes and those that don’t has not abated, will you be pushing ahead with the changes ahead of the 2021 election?”

      Her reply was

      “As we announced, due to the pandemic there are a number of Bills we can longer bring forward in this parliamentary year, including the planned Bill on gender recognition.”

      Source
      https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,qa-shirleyanne-somerville-cabinet-secretary-for-social-security-and-older-people

    26. The Honourable Yona says:

      Dear Stu. Given Ann McLaughlin MP’s announcement in WESTMINSTER today.
      I would like to tell you about the following.
      An FOI request produced the following information. A DRAFT letter from SA Somerville dated 23/3/20, Document 6 to Equality Network/Scottish Trans Alliance, LGBT Youth Scotland, LGBT Scotland, Stonewall Scotland and emailed to other Lobbyists stated.

      ‘Ye colleague, The Minister for Parliamentary Business, Graeme Dey MSP, has announced in Parliament that, due to the current Covid-19 pandemic, the Scottish Government has reviewed its legislative priorities in order to allow for the development and delivery of measures to improve our resilience and response arrangements. As a result a number of planned legislation measures can no longer proceed. Consequently, this Government will not now introduce the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill during the current Parliament.

      Draft 7 and 8 say the same.
      Draft 12 on 24/3/20 states

      Second Para
      …’As a result, some legislation to which we had committed will no longer proceed as planned. Consequently, the Scottish Government will not now introduce the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill in year 5 of this Parliament.’

      By Document 24 dated 1/4/20
      That had changed. There is a draft and also Doc 29 which has a copy that is ‘signed’ by SA Somerville. I presume this is the letter that was sent.
      It states para 2
      ‘He advised that, as an unavoidable consequence of the need to focus resource on dealing with the current pandemic, protecting lives and supporting the NHS, it is regrettably the case that the work within government is being halted for now on the reform of the Gender Recognition Act along with other planned bills on Moveable Transactions and Foxhunting…’

      Para 5

      The consultation on the draft Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill was intended to build consensus. We will, when resources allow, complete the work of analysing the consultation responses although I cannot give a timetable at this point as the Governments focus must be, of course, on dealing with the Covid-19 Pandemic. I know you will understand why this decision has been taken and we will discuss further with you the outcomes of the consultation in due course..’

      This is where the Cab Sec addresses the letter to her ‘Dear Colleagues’.
      I wasn’t aware the the CEO’s of Lobbyist Groups were ever considered ‘Colleagues’ of MSP’s never mind a Cabinet Secretary.

      Sleekit, sneaky, dissembling, disingenuous brazen faced liars.
      I have been unable to find out if the results of the 2nd Consultation ( the one she claims was only to build consensus) have been analysed or published. I certainly haven’t heard anything from the Women’s Groups.
      Also, why would AS Somerville be offering to discuss the outcome of the Analysis with the Lobbyist groups only? This excludes everyone else and particularly Womens Groups or others who took the trouble to respond to the Consultation.
      Women getting sidelined and silenced again in favour of Stonewall. LGBT Youth, LGBT Scot, LGBT Health and Wellbeing.
      Scottish Trans Alliance/Equality Network.

      THIS STINKS !

    27. Dave Beveridge says:

      Update unfortunately doesn’t say that they’ve come to their senses and have postponed it until the Twelfth of Never.

    28. Christian Schmidt says:

      And good on you to copy Anne McLaughlin’s tweet – an within 9 minutes which is impressively quick!

      I’d wish more journalists would make corrections when it becomes clear that things aren’t as they seem…

    29. I do find the idea of frumpy, naive middle-aged Scottish women, who had probably never in their lives heard of trans people before a couple of years ago and now try to come off like university lecturers on the subject…to be oddly comedic.

      Bet you when they got into politics years ago, for whatever reasons and agendas of their own, that they could never have predicted this would be their drum to beat, their hill to die on, their deranged American anti-ideology to pimp.

      “Trans…whit? Whae? They want tae dae…WHIT tae thir boabies? Crivvens, jings, help ma boab! Nivir heard onyhing like it in ma life! N ye want me tae be minister fir THIS?! Wish ah’d steyed in ma auld office joab noo! Mental!”

      Brutally hilarious.

    30. Kevin Cargill says:

      As a result of having “scored out most of it” she mistakenly said that reforms to GRA would be enacted before the May elections. Utter bollocks!! You don’t mistakenly say something entirely new that was never in your notes as a result of scoring out most of them. You’re more likely to miss saying something you should have. She is a mendacious wokerati tumour who’s been caught out and should be lanced from the party before her cancerous views spread too far.

    31. Johnny says:

      Thought I’d check in on Wings from not being here for quite a while, I see he is still talking shit about SNP and weirdly obsessed by gender.

      Remember when Wings was awesome? Seems long time ago now. I won’t be back.

    32. Balaaargh says:

      @G H Graham from previous thread,

      Somerville has always been a careerist looking to pin her name on some woke cause that would propel her. As long as she is around, GRA “reform” will not go away.

    33. Republicofscotland says:

      It sounds like she made a mistake, however that mistake is only going to prolong the inevitable, that the SNP are determined to force through GRA self-Id, even thought the majority of the Scottish population don’t want it.

      Sturgeon said today at FMQ’s that she welcomes criticism and scrutiny, that all very well, but she doesn’t seem to heed what the majority of the public is saying on this matter, and that is that we don’t want it.

    34. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Johnny

      Thanks for your pointless pearls of wisdom. We’ll treat your input with all the consideration it merits.

      Buh bye now!

    35. Frank says:

      It does not seem to be Stu who is, ‘weirdly obsessed with gender’.

    36. Polly says:

      She’s never seemed the brightest within the SNP and even given her excuse of having to cut stuff out of her speech because they cut the time allowed it seems odd she changed the meaning of what was left. Freudian slip by her possibly. At least she tweeted that she was wrong fairly quickly to clear up any misunderstanding. In the run up to the election of course they’ll all be doing their best to keep folk onside.

    37. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anne McLaughlin’s clarifying tweet cannot be replied to.

    38. Polly says:

      @ Whorattledyourcage

      ‘frumpy, naive middle-aged Scottish women’

      Oi you no need for personal insults, there’s plenty about her point of view to make fun of though. And you don’t want to sound sexist do you? Besides I’m sure there’s plenty of said women on our side of this debate too. Not that I would know that of course.

    39. wull says:

      In the context of what she actually said, her update remains worrying. All they are really saying is that they are absolutely determined to introduce it in the next Holyrood parliament, after the May election.

      In other words, they are going to piggyback it in, on the backs of those who vote SNP for the simple or principal objective of obtaining independence. The trick is very simple and anything but subtle. You can see their manifesto already. 1. Vote for us (1 + 2), because we are the only vehicle that can actually get you the independence you want.

      2. We’ve got some other policies as well, of course, and all the GRA stuff etc. will be there in the manifesto (perhaps not over-emphasised if it is foreseen it will cause them trouble during the campaign, but unequivocally there all the same – even if it has to be in ‘small print’).

      3. Then, once they got your vote and the majority they want, that will be the first thing to be implemented, on the supposedly democratic grounds that they ‘have to fulfil what they promised in their manifesto’.

      4. They’ll go for independence too, but more tepidly (‘carefully’, they will say, or ‘strategically’). They will make you wait for it, on the grounds that it’s more difficult to obtain, the time has to be ripe, the gold standard is best and all that stuff. As they delay it, and push it as far away towards the end of their 5-year term (or whatever it is) they’ll just have to get on with the ‘day job’, which means implementing the other things they promised in their manifesto.

      Which means GRA, and all the rest of it, that most independence supporters didn’t pay much attention to (during the campaign – they hope) and don’t actually believe in. If that GRA etc. is their real priority, and far more important to this New SNP than actual independence, well – first things first!

      Honest independence supporters will be voting for the independence the NewSNP want, not the independence they actually wanted. NewSNP is really saying ‘independence our way only – or, no way! No independence at all.’

      And their way? What is it? Independence from reality, and from all the restraints and confinements of human nature. Including from the fact that, whether we like it or not, we are actually male or female, and there is no getting away from that basic and fundamental fact. The fantasy legislation that will follow will come down very hard on anyone who opposes it in any way. Such is the way with all reality-denying governments: they are fundamentally authoritarian and, indeed, totalitarian. They will not have the false ideologies they impose questioned in any way.

      Personally, I don’t want to be independent from reality. I don’t want to live in a fantasy Scotland imposing beliefs that undermine reality as the one and only Scottish orthodoxy. I don’t want to live in Anne McLaughlin’s Scotland. Mind you, I wouldn’t or shouldn’t mind being outlawed by them, as a heretic opposed to their self-righteous and absurd nonsense. I should even be proud of it.

      But let’s hope it won’t come to that, and common sense will prevail.

    40. gorgielad says:

      Republicofscotland

      only if gra self id makes the manifesto.

      hint, it wont

    41. red sunset says:

      Is Anne McLaughlin obligated to do a mea culpa in the House of Commons?

      Does she have to stand up before the assembled Tories and assorted antagonists of the Scots and declare that she mislead Parliament ?

      Will she get headline treatment on MisReporting Scotland?

    42. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “only if gra self id makes the manifesto.

      hint, it wont”

      50 quid?

    43. Andrew F says:

      So what happened was that she had a script to read from that was prepared in advance.

      But when it was written she thought she had 3 minutes and just before actually reading from it realised she only had 1 minute.

      So she hurriedly crossed out some parts of it and then read the rest, in which she “apparently” said precisely what she actually did say – but that was not correct.

      How does that work?

      How do the words she read from her script NOT say what they appeared to say?

    44. Gregor says:

      I wish I knew SNP values ???

      Values shape my perception and guide my vote.

      https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/values

    45. Tannadice Boy says:

      “One wheel on my wagon and I am still rolling along”. The new SNP strategy… you can’t get us out.

    46. Beaker says:

      @Polly says:
      24 September, 2020 at 3:50 pm
      “At least she tweeted that she was wrong fairly quickly to clear up any misunderstanding. In the run up to the election of course they’ll all be doing their best to keep folk onside.”

      Must be the new Scot Govt policy – misunderstanding and confusion. The students have been getting conflicting information as to whether they can go home or not.

      I still think they will sneak it through, ideally on what is termed a “good day to bury bad news”. What date is Brexit deadline?

    47. Lizg says:

      Red sunset @ 4.00
      I was wondering the same thing…..
      I suspect it’s just damage limitation from her because it was picked up, and that her original statement is probably the real position.
      This gender woo woo has been passed through other parliaments generally on the “down low” and organisations have been fiscally nudged to lean towards the assumption that it’s received wisdom.
      It’s pretty much pushed into the narrative using the tactics of the religions and is just as faith based, so the “converts ” are not going to miss any opportunity to entrench their beliefs no matter what!

      Polly @ 3.58
      Well said and I couldn’t agree more 🙂

    48. Republicofscotland says:

      “gorgielad says:
      24 September, 2020 at 3:59 pm
      Republicofscotland

      only if gra self id makes the manifesto.

      hint, it wont”

      Gorgielad.

      How can you be so sure it won’t?

      “Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      24 September, 2020 at 4:06 pm
      “only if gra self id makes the manifesto.

      hint, it wont”

      50 quid?”

      And to you as Well Rev, how can you be so sure it will.

      If both of you know something the rest of us don’t, we’re all eyes don’t keep us in the dark.

    49. Lizg says:

      Andrew F @ 4.10
      That’s why I don’t believe her.
      Those scripts are prepared by civil servants,vetted by the ministers private office and approved by the ministers……. all before the words are spoken…… and the words are spoken on the record in the parliament.
      ( one of mine works at doing this , and that’s why so many thick politicians can pass themselves they are speaking from a prepared script )
      So,I’d say
      To correct them by Tweet within the hour is no exactly a credible position and comes across as a bit of a panicked reaction.

    50. Robert Graham says:

      Just watched a clip of Nicola Sturgeon on GMB Piers Morgan , Like it or not and despite the background problems Alex , GRA ,Hate Bill , she is actually gaining support , and support from the ones who last time voted NO ,Thats the ones we need to convince

      So suck it up put the blindfold and peg over the nose I dont care if the Devil himself gets us Independence we can argue about the niceties after , ok sometimes the end does justify the means , whos to say we are right being all bloody righteous and pious .
      Sometimes a bit of reality works who really gives a f/k if everything is not pretty and nice life isn’t like that sometimes

      This time there is no chance of avoiding another Indy vote we all have to give her one last chance because the SNP like it or not are the only game in town , so suck it up .

    51. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      Polly, my whole post was satiric, as is obvious. I was not even referring to McLaughlin specifically; I was referring to a certain kind of woman in the SNP’s ranks, and there is more than one. Just ask Mhairi Hunter. They are utterly ridiculous. Maybe but I said could be construed as (sigh) sexist, but women like this, and our own FM, certainly have no problem in being sexist-cum-hateful towards men.

      I forgot how sensitive people can be these days. How I ever managed that is beyond me. 🙂

    52. gorgielad says:

      @ros

      too much opposition from the snp members, i doubt those who introduced it or allowed it to go through at conference expected the backlash.

      they will be too occupied with the indy debate.

      i’m still trying to convince folk of the benefits of making the he an indy plebiscite. i’m getting there but very slowly. i dont understand the reluctance or the arguments against this idea. it seems a no brainer.

    53. Mike d says:

      I think the listerine advert with the the scottish accented talking donkey, says it all about what they think about us.

    54. gorgielad says:

      @ros

      the snp members in my branch, some support the bill, others dont.

      but there is zero willingness to bring it back

    55. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Robert Graham
      I am living in a different Scotland to you. Any organisation that has lost half of it’s members or customers would expect the CEO to resign. A great deal of disquiet going on about this SNP leadership and not just on this blog. And we are talking about long term SNP voters and Independence supporters.

    56. Effijy says:

      This SNP Person has the title of Women and Equalities Spokesperson?

      Why does she have the word Women in her title if it’s about equalities?

      What about the men, the woman who decide they want to be a man,
      what about Binary people who don’t think they are either???

      I’m all for equality for all. Just a pity Scotland’s Justice system doesn’t support it!

    57. Beaker says:

      @Mike d says:
      24 September, 2020 at 4:48 pm
      “I think the listerine advert with the the scottish accented talking donkey, says it all about what they think about us.”

      No, Scottish accents are used because they have a “friendly” feel to them. Call centre companies like using Scotland because of the accents. I’ve been involved in that line of work off and on in Glasgow since 96.

      Listerine has a Scottish connection as it is named after Joseph Lister. It is produced by Johnson & Johnson who last time I checked are an American company.

      Stop getting over sensitive.

    58. Graeme says:

      Johnny says:
      24 September, 2020 at 3:40 pm

      Thought I’d check in on Wings from not being here for quite a while, I see he is still talking shit about SNP and weirdly obsessed by gender.

      Remember when Wings was awesome? Seems long time ago now. I won’t be back.

      ————————————————————–

      Please don’t go Johnny we love you don’t leave us lead us

    59. JJ says:

      I’m sure members will have the opportunity to ask questions at conference…you know, the one that was being arranged for October. Any sign of the accounts yet?

    60. G H Graham says:

      I have just learned that Gender WOO WOO radical extremist, Shirley-Anne Sommerville, one of Sturgeon’s closest cabinet ministers, is going to have to defend her seat against another SNP candidate.

      I believe she is one of the key architects of the GRA Bill so it will be to my eternal delight if this minister is booted out & replaced with someone more balanced and perhaps more focused on the idea of independence, a concept somewhat cast adrift by Westminster friendly Sturgeon & Obergruppenfhurer Murrel.

      Source: https://www.thenational.scot/news/18745899.snp-members-try-oust-shirley-anne-somervile-fergus-ewing-ahead-election/

    61. Jill Sharpe says:

      Been waiting to see who goes against Somerville – need to contact as many members as possible to vote for the alternative.

    62. Allium says:

      As Kevin Cargill @3.40 says, her excuse makes no sense, and she knows it, hence no replies. Cat out of the bag now though, just as everyone behind the scenes already knew. This is the biggest priority the SNP have under NS. Independence is just an afterthought, if that. I hope the Tories destroy them over this, I really do.

    63. Orlando Quarmby says:

      @Johnny – Which of the wokerati are you a SPAD for?

    64. Sarah says:

      @ Robert Graham and everyone else who says that we need to bring over the No voters and that Nicola is doing that.

      We only needed 193,000 more Yes votes last time. We do not need to please every last voter in the country and say/do anything to get their vote.

      How many EU citizens voted No last time? They will all vote Yes now, won’t they?

      The whole attitude has changed – in 2014 the independence idea was new and daring. Now it is the norm. It should be easier to get a Yes vote now.

    65. Ottomanboi says:

      Sturgeon is a fan of the lady in question.
      https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/24/the-cult-of-ruth-comes-to-scottish-football/
      Pro abortion Ginsburg may possibly be replaced by a ‘pro life’ candidate.
      The hate against the latter, a woman, is already being stoked.
      https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/liberal-media-already-targeting-amy-coney-barrett-with-anti-catholic-bigotry

    66. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Sarah
      True except over a million Scottish voters did not vote to remain in the EU. And about one third of them were SNP voters. How does that play against EU residents living in Scotland? And then we have got the Angus Robertson school of thought which was disgusting to me. My late Mum an SNP voter all of her life including when our constituency had Gordon Wilson as MP and he was the SNP beacon and their last hope. A different party now. Note to Angus Robertson, old people vote for Independence as well albeit not in the same number. But that was your failure to persuade in 2014 not theirs.

    67. Stoker says:

      Bozo & Co “to unveil legal protections for intelligence agents committing crimes while undercover” https://archive.is/UwjXh

      Oh look! Murrell, Evans & Co are all getting their masters protection just as the pressure becomes unbearable. Think there will be at least one or two churnalists glad of this news too?

      🙂 LOL! 🙂

    68. Effijy says:

      Have watched the news on TV, listened on the radio
      and see newspaper front pages, why isn’t this all over us?

      https://www.facebook.com/290782454428626/posts/1588883337951858/?d=n

    69. James Barr Gardner says:

      Sarah says:
      24 September, 2020 at 6:05 pm

      How many EU citizens voted No last time? They will all vote Yes now, won’t they?

      It all depends on whether they will be able to vote at all, considering Boris that will disenfranchise them of their rights to vote come 1st Jan 2021. If in doubt move the goalposts, it’s a Tory thing.

      If Nicola does not move things along this year, then that’s goodbye to 150K EU Yes voters ! Can she make this up out of the previous No voters ? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush !

    70. callmedave says:

      EUFA football

      Celtic and Motherwell…. well into the their games now live.

      Aberdeen and Rangers get started at 20:00hrs our time
      which is 21:00 on their schedule .

      Take your pick if you fancy it.

      http://www.hesgoal.com/

    71. Lizg says:

      Stoker @ 6.31
      That new protection is alarming in and of itself, but even more so when we become an independent country and competition for London.
      Clearly Westminster and the English Courts won’t hold their state actors to account and we must be mindful of that when we are deciding just what kind of relationship we want with Westminster going forwards.
      I’d say while that legislation is live there should be absolutely no British Military presence on Scottish soil…..if their personal can’t be answerable to the law they simply can’t be here.

      And we should have strict and very clear Constitutional instructions to our government in this matter , E.G., that the Westminster ( or any other ) government cannot have permission to operate on Scottish soil in any way that is Constitutionally forbidden to Holyrood.
      Something like that covers Faslane and Coleport being nuclear, having a sovereign base/territory on foreign soil and personal not held to the rule of law!

    72. Alec Lomax says:

      Spot the Tory – Allium.

    73. Mac says:

      Like a dog returning to its own vomit They just can’t leave it alone.

      They are so desperate to get the GRA and Hate Bill through. So they must be totally opposed. Whatever the real reasons you can be sure with this shower of rats they are not good.

      Woke politics is the hallmark of utter cunts. The SNP are vying to be the wokest party in the world.

      We have got to stop voting for them until there is a complete clear out at the top. Forget the list and all that. No votes whatsoever. Independence will survive these current charlatans.

      It has got to be done so sooner rather than later.

    74. Dan says:

      @ Stoker and James Barr Gardner

      I posted this 2 min clip of Bernadette Devlin from 1972 (Extract from episode of Firing Line which is available on Youtube) over on OT the other day, but it seems appropriate to show that those holding power can always move the goalposts and change the laws as is their wont.

      https://twitter.com/DanielCollins85/status/1303963063276707840

    75. Allium says:

      @7.19 Hardly. But if the SNP chose to bury themselves over GRA, I don’t much mind who’s helping them with the shovel. Sooner the better. It doesn’t matter anymore. A referendum is not on the cards anyway. I don’t care about the SNP for its own sake, never have. They’re going the same way over indyref2 as Labour & its evergreen We Will Abolish the House of Lords promise and its actually pathetic to see.

    76. Lorna Campbell says:

      The Rev is correct: they mean to push this stuff through, by hook or by crook.

    77. Meg merrilees says:

      So is this another reason why there will never be a Section 30 from Boris….

      Speaking today to a Climate Change discussion at the UN being held in New York….

      Prime Minister Boris Johnson says he wants to make a “big bet” on renewables, turning the UK into the “Saudi Arabia” of wind power.
      Speaking via video link to a climate roundtable discussion at the UN in New York, Mr Johnson said the country held “extraordinary potential for wind”.
      As regards wind power, Mr Johnson said: “We’ve got huge, huge gusts of wind going around the north of our country – Scotland. Quite extraordinary potential we have for wind.”

      Taken from a BBC news page – no mention of it on the BBC Scotland page – wonder why not?

    78. Dan says:

      @ Meg merrilees

      Aye, it’s always worth an occasional glance at the power stats. Scotland often transfers more than 100% of it’s own demand based on 10% of UK population. Currently we’re exporting around 50% over our requirements and it is barely windy.

      https://extranet.nationalgrid.com/RealTime

    79. JayR says:

      Anne Mclaughlin is partner of SNP NEC BAME convener Graham Campbell. Must be the Wokest fucking hoose in Scotland. “Go up to the roof and turn on the Virtue Signal”

    80. mike cassidy says:

      At least it looks like they are getting their act together on the transactivism issue in England.

      Schools being told – in effect – to cut the crap

      https://twitter.com/HooliganBod/status/1309147768385146880/photo/1

      https://www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum

    81. velofello says:

      How can you read out something that is the opposite of what you meant to say?

      Mis-poke? Mis-read?Mis-leading? Missed any other explanations?

    82. mike cassidy says:

      And that dangerous ‘Mermaids’ organisation

      A big promoter of the ‘born in a wrong body’ bollocks

      having to go into a serious reverse as a result.

      Must be expecting a large drop in income!

      https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1309199389177634824/photo/2

    83. lumilumi says:

      The SNP is getting so bogged down on this gender woowoo thing. The MSM is awfully quiet about it…

      But make no mistake, it’ll be weaponised come May ’21 Holyrood elections. The Tories, especially, will try to capitalise on it, as the Tories down south in Westmister have shelved similar legislation for more consultation or some such (kicked it into the long grass.) Labour and LibDems in England are apparently on the trans train. The Greens, of course, because they’re the wokest of the woke.

      The difference is that the toxic, bad GRA reforms (self-ID, no medical/psycholgical gatekeeping) won’t go through in Westmister – but they might in Scotland while the SNP + the Greens command a majority.

      I don’t live in Scotland, or the UK, but I take an interest in this debate – or rather non-debate because “dissenters” are vilified (J.K. Rowling, anyone?), doxxed, silenced (Hello, Humza Yousaf and the Hate Crime Bill), even fired from jobs. Because radical trans activists (TRAs) are trying to push similar legislation in my country.

      I’m not against trans people or denying their existence. Obviously they exist and should be accommodated, treated with respect and dignity. Their special needs should be recognised and efforts made to provide appropriate social and intimate spaces, appropriate health and social care, including mental health services. Efforts should be made to reduce the social stigma, to grow understanding of this small minority. The real trans people.

      Meanwhile, Stonewall and similar organizations in other countries have expanded the “trans umbrella” so wide it now encompasses all and everything. Cross-dresser? You’re in! Autogynephile? You’re in! Minor attracted person (MAP)(what most people would call peadophile)?… Hang on, not quite yet, but hand on…

      How would you describe a person who had to participate in another person’s fetish/sexual fantasy unknowingly or against their will?

      A victim, right? It’s social mind rape.

      This is what TRAs are advocating, self-ID, no gatekeeping, no safeguarding. Women and children become playthings for deprived men hiding under the safe “trans” umbrella.

      Now, most genuine trans people are just ordinary people, not depraved sexual predators. They just want to get on with their lives, unobtrusevely. The proposed GRA reforms affect them negatively. Freely letting all kinds of people into their protected class, making them less safe, facing a backlash.

      The Stonewall appoach, apparently followed by the Scottish government, throws the doors wide open. Any man, any sexual deviant, any predator, can claim “trans” status and be given access to all female spaces – and the women and girls who object are branded bigots and “terfs” and silenced by threats and fear and soon maybe the law.

      Well done, you feminist, Nicola Sturgeon. /sarcasm

      Why do I care?

      Because I’m a woman. Adult female human. XX chromosomes. Vagina, cervix and womb. Produced EGGS. Had the capacity to grow and bring new life into this world (with a little help from a sperm donor). My whole being in society is defined by my SEX. not gender, SEX. I don’t have to conform to gender stereotypes. Being good at “manly” things don’t make me a man.

      TRAs want to colonise all women’s spaces, womanhood itself, drive out women. Because transwomen, the men that they are, do “womaning” better than actual women. So it’s just a men’s rights movement, same old misogyny. sigh. yawn.

      How come the woke are all up at arms about all kinds of cultural appropriation (and I agree with some of it) but have a huge blind spot when (rich) (white) western men are appropriating womanhood for their “identity”, their plaything. Their FEELZ.

      The TRAs are trying to change legislation in my country by appealling to people’s emotions. How unfair it is that to legally change sex/gender (my language only has one word, and its meaning has been truly and completely confused – it used to mean sex in the biological sense), the law requires trans people to become infertile. woe, woe, poor victims.

      What the law actually decrees is that to qualify for protected trans status, you have to have medical/surgical work, true commitment, not just a sexual fetish.

      Trans people exist. Biological sex exists. Gatekeeping legislation exists to separate the wheat from the chaff. Self-ID gets the chaff among the wheat, and is a disservice to the wheat. And the women and girls who are then subjected to male presence and becoming unwitting participants in a man’s sexual fantasies.

      The TRA movement is deeply misogynistic. How on earth can Nicola Sturgeon, a self-confessed feminist, support this?

      Sorry for the long rant but… It’s all just a bit too much.

      The SNP is shit, Scotland won’t be independent in the near future, BREXIT is shit, women’s rights are being rolled back, Trump will win, and I have to buy new tyres for my car. It’s all a bit shit. 2014 was a lot better. Sigh.

    84. Willie says:

      Can anybody on this column tell me what the scumbag Peter Murrell is being paid by the party.

      Anecdotal reports are that he is being paid £150k plus expenses plus pension contribution. But we do not know because it is a secret. Neither is his employment status known. Is he an employee or a consultant or what? Again, we do no5 know because it is a secret.

      Nor do we know how people like Murrell or Ruddick’s remuneration is established. Who decided. Nicola? Or is he just a member somebody decided to chuck some money at.

      The SNP is not a limited company, a charitable company, a community interest company, a limited liability partnership, a partnership, or so I am told. Rather it is I believe an unincorporated association. Maybe some of the lawyers in our midst might like to advise on this.

      So at a cost of maybe a fifth of a million pounds a year all up, Kenny MacAskill is asking the

      right question about how you suspend him, how you get rid of him.

    85. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rather than “Gender WooWoo spokesbeing”, perhaps GW spell-caster?

      These cats ain’t WOKE, they simply appear confused in their comprehension and interpretation on legal theory and practice. That’s most probably why we are being removed from the EU against our will, as our party of hope doesn’t understand the value of a legally defensible identity. Or how to use the law to defend and emancipate Scotland from English Torydum.

      The “Horizontal Effect” of Constitutional Rights
      https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1734&context=mlr

    86. Gerard Kelly says:

      https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159066710293092&id=560368091
      This sums up my feelings about the whole shenanigans.

    87. CameronB Brodie says:

      If we don’t find competent replacements for these tubes, Scotland has no sustainable future as a nation distinguishable from England. That’s the ultimate goal of the British nationalist project, which articulates the Tory ethos and tradition that drives Conservative party policy. Torydum is an English nationalist identity that has gotten right-up itself, to the extent of openly rejecting the rule-of-law.

      Theories, Principles, Policies and
      Common Law Adjudication

      http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/AUJlLegPhil/2011/7.pdf

    88. Dogbiscuit says:

      She’s clearly lying in her tweet

    89. Dogbiscuit says:

      Sturgeon is determined to advance a UN agenda that’s why she appears to be ignoring the majority of the public who I believe are against her crazy policies.

    90. Dogbiscuit says:

      Gerald Kelly thanks for that?

    91. Tannadice Boy says:

      Nothing absolutely nothing on my mums service to the SNP. Hows it going Angus? Right now I am not voting for anybody in May 2021. I won’t even vote for Indy2. Sick to the back teeth of the SNP or at least those that purport to honour SNP values.

    92. cirsium says:

      well spotted Meg, 7.56

    93. crazycat says:

      @ Meg merrilees and Dan

      “It’s Scotland’s wind”

      doesn’t have quite the same ring to it, does it?

    94. kapelmeister says:

      crazycat @9:20 pm

      How about?

      “It’s the Gaels gales”.

    95. crazycat says:

      @ kapelmeister

      Ok. 🙂

    96. Joe says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      If we recognise that the Scots are a distinct people with our own unique heritage then it doesn’t matter quite as much what politicians do or don’t.

      However if we simultaneously allow ourselves to be hoodwinked into being ‘global citizens’ and forced into radically changing our demographics while those politicians continue to betray Scots on the political front then, yes, the Scots will not last.

      That is what the Hate Speech bill is about aside from putting a moat around GRA (which is fundamentally an attack on women).

      ‘The problem with Scotland is that its full of Scots’.

      Politicians think in election cycles. The people who influence the politicians think in demographics and generations.

      The big betrayal is not the SG’s lies on the ‘independence’ front. Its something much more fundamental.

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Just because you are aligning with me on this issue, don’t think I’m not wary of your outlook.

    98. Joe says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      The only thing you are wrong about on this is equating Tory’s with English heritage. The English might be more conservative.

      The Tory’s represent neo liberalism and the steamrolling of everything that doesn’t aid it. They conserve nothing. Including the heritage of the ordinary English folk.

    99. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Wary” is probably overly understated, as I think Joe holds far-right views, particularly in relation towards multiculturalism, immigration, and membership of the EU. So he would appear to stand with the radical right, who pose a serious threat to democracy and the international rule-of-law (see Brexit).

      Legal Studies Volume 25 Issue 2, July 2005, pp. 228-259
      Law, health and the European Union

      https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/legal-studies/article/law-health-and-the-european-union/CEA54BC26A475B77AEB7053B5E686C4C

    100. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      You’re talking shite. Now fuck off or argue your case in law.

    101. Joe says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      There’s 2 kinds of multiculturalism and immigration.

      Theres the stuff of free people mingling freely and openly while exchanging ideas and trade.

      There’s the other stuff that is a global corporate hammer against the working class of our countries cloaked in progressive veneer.

      The war of the 21st century is global finance trying to undermine the 1st world countries and bring them to the level of the 3rd world where they are much more controllable with optional laws and much more easily corruptible leaders.

    102. CameronB Brodie says:

      Getting back on topic, does the SNP not appreciate genderwoowoo is incompatible with global health law?

      The European Court of Human Rights and the Emerging Right to Health
      https://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/the-european-court-of-human-rights-and-the-emerging-right-to-health/

    103. Tannadice Boy says:

      Ah well we have got the fibta results in. Nothing changes a bit like the SNP lately. We all get defeated in the end. Your welcomed.

    104. Dan says:

      crazycat says: at 9:20 pm

      “It’s Scotland’s wind”

      doesn’t have quite the same ring to it, does it?

      Admittedly I have no formal marketing qualifications but howz about something along the lines of “England’s addicted to sniffing Scotland’s farts”?

      That covers their requirements of needing both our wind and gas.
      If we had total control of our vast energy assets, we could be stinking rich…

    105. CameronB Brodie says:

      I hope I’m not being overly dogmatic in my approach, but I have some insight into how to achieve justice in a age of subjective post-truth. I’m simply trying to share what I think practical knowledge, that might be useful to others in the resistance against arbitrary and dogmatic legal pseudo-science.

      The Ten Dogmas of Determinism

      Philosophy today has become hopelessly dogmatic.

      It is as dogmatic as the Renaissance and Enlightenment found the Scholastics and their reliance on established Truths.

      It is as dogmatic as Kant found his predecessors Leibniz and Wolff with their complete confidence in the explanatory power of Reason.

      It is as dogmatic as Quine found empirical language philosophy with its use of analytic and synthetic distinctions.

      These were all reactions by modern thinkers against the orthodoxy of tradition.

      Information philosophers too must waken philosophy from its “dogmatic slumbers.” This will require both a modern rethinking of what we can know and a frank post-modern recognition of the tentative and relative foundations of that knowledge.

      As with Kant, our method is critical. We must put limits on these dogmas to make room for freedom and creativity, God and values, and knowledge of the external world….

      https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/dogmas/

    106. McDuff says:

      Robert Graham
      Sturgeon can increase the yes vote as much as she wants but without a referendum they are meaningless, and by her own words she has kicked that can into the long long grass. But maybe you could tell me roughly when she is going to hold indy ref2?

    107. crazycat says:

      @ Dan at 10.11

      Oh. Dear. 😉

    108. Hatuey says:

      Anyone that forecasts anything next year on the basis of Sturgeon still being in her job is pushing their luck.

      If she is still in the job, the gender stuff will be the least of our problems; it would mean our whole political and judicial systems were corrupt to the core.

      Again, I see too many people talking excitedly about the polls. When will they learn? This time last year the polls were suggesting a Swinson government was possible, if not likely.

      Indeed, Sturgeon’s emphasis on polls is one of the reasons we are in this dire position – out of Europe, further from indyref2 than we were before the Brexit vote, living in fear of this plague, etc.

    109. Ronald Fraser says:

      Genuinely enjoy the Jeo-CamB confrontations.

      Thanks lads, it’s an interesting way to end the day.

      As is always the case, we are all fighting for the same end.

    110. Mac says:

      The GRA is them saying ‘no Winston, 2+2=5’.

      The Hate Bill is the Room 101 where they can break you into kowtowing to it.

      It is like they want to tell us shit is food and then make us eat it.

      These bits of fucked up legislation amount to legal gobbledygook. But if passed, they give them the legal latitude they require to target their political enemies on vague charges like ‘stirring up hate’. We are not talking the Alex Salmond’s anymore. It is me and you level next.

      We all see how the law is being applied selectively already in Scotland under the SNP. Imagine what it will be like if this Orwellian crap gets passed.

      So is the GRA being protected by the Hate Bill or is it leading out the Hate Bill. I think they are both serving some twisted goal here.

      Who are these people driving this agenda. I mean really. This is sinister shit when you start looking at it more closely.

      And the SNP are leading it out, they are woke beyond woke. It is a real bad sign… again.

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      I also hope folk don’t think I’m suggesting you need to understand how the law works, in order to argue a case, or help Scotland. It does help though. 🙂

      Pravna metodologija 19 | 2013
      Five Models of Legal Science

      Abstract

      This paper pursues three goals. First, some traditional concepts of ‘legal science’ will be analysed, and a definition of ‘legal science ampio sensu’, ‘legal science stricto sensu’ and ‘legal dogmatics’ will be proposed.

      Second, a reconstruction of five models of ‘legal science ampio sensu’ will be presented to show the different methodological alternatives available to legal scholars. Third, I claim that it is necessary (for conceptual reasons) to argue for moral reasons when choosing a legal method. Finally, I offer some arguments for supporting the five methodological alternatives of legal science ampio sensu.

      Keywords:
      legal science, legal dogmatics, moral reasons, concept of law, conceptions of science

      https://journals.openedition.org/revus/2449

    112. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Mist 001 @ 3.00pm

      You cannot vote in Scottish Govermnent elections from overseas.

    113. Ronald Fraser says:

      Howz this for a brainwave,

      Holyrood elections in May 2021.

      IndyRef2 in September 2021.

      Why is that beyond the realms of possibility?

      All we need is the backing of Nicola and Peter.

    114. A Person says:

      Does anybody else think that Sturgeon may actually have gone too far with this de facto imprisonment of students? Seeing and hearing quite a bit of anger about it.

      Pride comes before a fall…

    115. Ronald Fraser says:

      There seems to be a lot of begging going on.

      Firstly, we have to get down on our knees and beg Nicola to hold indyRef2,,,then Nicola has to get down on her knees and beg Boris for a Section 30.

      If only life was a lot more simpler.

    116. Joe says:

      @Mac

      I was outside a shopping centre today listening to the security guard talking to a lassie. They were discussing the conflicting and senseless laws around covid.

      I didn’t say anything but it got my mind working.

      The constant changing of the goal posts and the lack of sense is pretty much psychological stress.

      You see if the laws are consistent and make sense then people will look for consistency and sense in future.

      However if you can stress people continuously while making laws/measures that are not consistent and make no sense then people stop expecting sense and start to adopt the ‘please, anything, just make this go away’ outlook.

      It helps break down the will, paves the way to acceptance of whatever it is the state wants and ultimately 2+2 really will equal 5.

      Also – criminals very often try to hide behind ignorance or incompetence. So do governments. There are not nearly the amount of ‘mistakes’ that they want you to believe there is.

    117. Polly says:

      @ WhoRattledYourCage

      Your satire was spot on and I agree with your point about many trans supporters of both sexes, not just women, and not just in Snp or Scotland, who don’t seem young, trendy, gay or obvious supporters but then they say they are now. It can make them even more ridiculous than some of the younger ones saying the same things. So far I agree, but any personal disrespectful comments always detract from what’s said, even what was said well. And it’s not just when it’s against women’s looks or age, though it’s worse when it is women since it happens far more to them. One of the things that sickened me in Salmond’s trial was women H when asked if she was attracted to or maybe flirted with Salmond and she replied, ‘of course not he doesn’t look after himself why would I be attracted to him’ or something like that. It was distasteful.

      I take issue with your statement ‘women like this, and our own FM, certainly have no problem in being sexist-cum-hateful towards men’. I’m not sure what specifically you complain of but in general the statement is obviously hyperbole. As for some women being sensitive, perhaps if the male sex had been disadvantaged over centuries in favour of women, and found even 40 years after the equal pay act had come into force that unions in Glasgow could conspire with female workers to still pay men less then I think men would be making a bit of a fuss, don’t you?

      Not all of us are sensitive, not all of us want to be equal to men, I always knew there were many men I’d be ashamed to consider my equal. I’ve always been willing take on all comers and treat people as individuals. The thing is though all this trans stuff, together with rising misogyny means women like me who were never feminists, who actually thought men were better people on the whole, now stand firmly in solidarity with our own sex in a way we never did before. So any superfluous personal comments which could be considered about looks especially will be stamped on and I keep some pointy heels especially. Keep up with the satire though I did enjoyed that.

    118. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, the current SNP is distinctly neo-liberal in it’s approach to the law, though outwardly WOKE to the world. This is largely because they stand under the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty, and they also appear to be taking shite legal advice.

      Justiciability of ESC Rights and The Right to Effective Remedies: Historic Challenges and New Opportunities
      https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/640b/9fe6dd40bdf59fa0c7cda8af594947ffcb4a.pdf

    119. Joe says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      You silly wee sausage. Don’t you see? Neo-liberal IS woke 🙂 That rainbow flag we see everywhere is the symbol of a neo-liberal colour revolution.

    120. Polly says:

      @ Dan

      Thanks for both links above which I hadn’t seen before and thanks for the wind and gas laugh. You have a wicked sense of humour.

    121. Mac says:

      I am struggling to disagree with you Joe.

      It does feels like an attempt to break down our common social constructs and beliefs and replace them with bullshite of their own making. And then send you to jail if you say anything against it.

      We gave the SNP an effective political monopoly in Scotland after 2014 and this is what they are doing with it. Oh yeah and conjuring up the AS trial while simultaneously squandering BREXIT.

      So I think we all really need to be thinking about revoking that monopoly very soon.

    122. Beaker says:

      Wee story circulating on Twitter.

      According to one author, the Scot Govt has a media team of 40 people. Newspapers are warned that if they publish a story not to their liking then all government ads are withdrawn.

      Another tweet said that the SNP has a rule that party members are not allowed to criticise other members or policy.

      Anyone know the real facts?

    123. Joe says:

      @Mac

      The SNP are behaving the same way as many other governments in the developed world. Im prepared to bet decent money that it is not a coincidence.

      But lets not be too harsh only on the SNP. I don’t think there is any party in Holyrood who are not in on it. Or Westminster for that matter.

    124. CameronB Brodie says:

      Those who jump on the WOKE wagon without understanding the principles of inclusive education and law, are driving a wedge between Scotland and a proven approach towards helping society become more just. Those promoting anti-foundational law simply do not appreciate it’s dangers, particularly as we are now adrift from the Common law (see Brexit). The only explanation that springs to my mind, is that their legal team view the world in cripplingly parochial fashion, and are desperate that SNP policy conforms with British constitutional practice, which is excessively arbitrary and dogmatic in nature.

      I think what we are witnessing in relation to support for the GRA amendments, is the effect of “pluralistic ignorance”, which encourages the social adoption of authoritarianism (see ’30s Germany). I also think a touch of pluralistic ignorance helps sustain British nationalism. As it’s certainly not legal practice that is compatible with moral reason.

      Pluralistic Ignorance and Social Change*
      A Model of Conformity to the Perceived Majority

      Abstract

      I develop a theory of group interaction in which individuals who act sequentially are concerned about signaling what they believe is the majority group preference. Equilibrium dynamics may result in a perverse situation where most individuals reluctantly act in a way they mistakenly believe is cooperative, a situation known as `pluralistic ignorance’.

      Strong beliefs over others’ views increases pluralistic ignorance in small groups, but decreases it in large groups. Behavior may be affected by leaders, laws or surveys that influence what is thought to be the majority preference, possibly creating pluralistic ignorance. Abrupt social change may come about through an everyman who reveals what everyone wishes they were doing.

      The model integrates insights from scholarship on collective action, public opinion, and social meaning regulation, and then applies these insights to political phenomena such as misperceived support for discriminatory policies, the rise of the Arab Spring, beliefs about climate change beliefs, and the impact of get out the vote campaigns.

      https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/duque/files/pluralistic_ignorance_and_social_change_new_1027.pdf

    125. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      No Joe, you’re simply making it up to fit your narrative. WOKE educational practice was designed to combat neo-liberalism. If you weren’t so hostile towards post-moden critical social theory, which is not a Jewish conspiracy to enslave the world, you might appreciate you’re talking mince.

    126. boris says:

      Gethins lost his North East Fife seat at Westminster in the 2019 General Election, but he recently announced his return to politics in next years Scottish elections.

      If successful I expect him to concentrate on the day job of campaigning for Scotland’s self determination.

      But the irony of the political views of himself and others of the same ilk, in the SNP was expressed in their contributions to foreign affairs debates and in their media statements when they were at Westminster when they failed to accept and support the people of Donetsk and Crimea who had held self determination referendums and decided that they wished to return to Russia.

      https://caltonjock.com/2020/09/24/stephen-gethins-forgot-his-purpose-and-lost-his-seat-at-westminster-now-heading-for-kinross/

    127. Polly says:

      @ Beaker

      They obviously used to have that rule not to criticise others in the party and I thought it a good rule, until they allowed abuse of Joan McAlpine, since then it’s been a free for all. If they’re insisting on it now only to protect Murrell and I were one of them I’d tell them to shove it after all they’ve allowed before.

      @ Ronald Fraser

      ‘If only life was a lot more simpler.’

      Well it used to be when people only had to go on their knees to beg to god, then prostrate themselves before the feudal landowner taking his tithe or droit du seigneur rites, or carry out his farming on his runrig bent backed and broken down, eating his gruel or barley bread and drinking his mead, when he was lucky to live to forty and most of his children died in infancy, hoping one lived to provide for him in old age, it used to be the simpler times. Ah those were the days, eh Ronald, ah you’re always contrary.

    128. Joe says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      Woke is commonly a metaphor for ‘social justice’.

      Given that GRA is product of the social justice agenda I can’t see how you can advocate one and dismiss the other?

      Neoliberalism:
      ‘Neoliberalism or neo-liberalism is the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with economic liberalism and free-market capitalism.: It is generally associated with policies of economic liberalization, including privatization, deregulation, globalization, free trade, austerity, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector…’

      There may have been a time that most left-minded people with a brain would have considered the social justice concept as a positive. At one point it clearly was.

      GRA and the Hate Speech idiocy (with similar approaches in other countries) show that it is about anything other than liberation or social justice.

      Its about the destruction of traditional concepts, regardless of how biologically grounded in reality. The destruction of the family unit, the country, any sense of anything that might serve to unite people. Instead it serves to atomise people and take away their social cohesion and togetherness.

      Now we see this critical theory making an all out assault on the very concept of European heritage. If that sounds ridiculous then you aren’t paying attention.

      The main beneficiary to a fragmented and confused society are the neo-liberal gods of finance.

      Homework assignment:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

      In the section ‘Theorists’ look through the men mentioned and look at each ‘Early Life’ section of each. Is there a pattern?

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Given that GRA is product of the social justice agenda I can’t see how you can advocate one and dismiss the other?”

      Yet the ignorant appear to think themselves competent to explain shit to folk. Man, there really are some fucked up egos btl on WOS. Social justice is not possible if you constrain the public realm available to women, which is what the GRA amendments will achieve. So these amendments are not compatible with a social justice agenda, which is laudable. Subsequently, the proposals aren’t compatible with WOKE practice either. Simples.

      Genderwoowoo is concentrated neo-liberalism, which is the mortal enemy of the public good.

      Gender justice and social norms
      processes of change for adolescent girls
      Towards a conceptual framework 2

      https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/publications-opinion-files/8831.pdf

    130. Joe says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      Did you do your homework?

    131. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Away and sell your pish to the RTPI. I’ll take you more seriously if they don’t simply laugh in your face.

      Seattle Journal for Social Justice Volume 10 Issue 2 Article 3, April 2012
      The Rise of Judicially Enforced Economic, Social, and Cultural
      Rights – Refocusing Perspectives

      https://digitalcommons.law.seattleu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1616&context=sjsj

    132. Joe says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      I’ll take that as the reaction of a confused man faced with uncomfortable truths.

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe can take it any way he/she/it wants, I’m simply not prepared to engage with his ill-founded arguments against theory that enables me to attempt the “Art of Law”.

      Principles of Public International Law
      https://www.diakonia.se/en/IHL/The-Law/International-Law1/Principles/

    134. CameronB Brodie says:

      “with his ill-founded arguments”

      Even I’m not immune to the latent misogyny in culture.

    135. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s just a pity I’m not in a position to put theory into effective practice.

      The Future of Economic and Social Rights:
      Introduction

      https://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2227&context=lsfp

    136. CameronB Brodie says:

      Though that might actually result in legal practice that wasn’t distorted by culture and laden with ideology. So Scotland might not be on the verge of being written out of British constitutional consciousness, and history. How very ‘Nazi’ of British/Scottish legal practice.

      EU Gender Equality Law

      1. Introduction

      The purpose of the present publication is to provide a general overview of gender equality law at the EU
      level. The publication is aimed at a broad – but not necessarily legal – public and explains the most important
      issues of the EU gender equality acquis.

      The term ‘EU gender equality acquis’ refers to all the relevant Treaty provisions, legislation and the case law of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in relation to gender equality. Another often-used term, instead of gender equality, is ‘sex equality’. Both terms are used in the present publication, more or less interchangeably.

      However, it should be noted that while the term ‘sex’ refers primarily to the biological condition and therefore also the difference between women and men, the term ‘gender’ is broader in that it also comprises social differences between women and men, such as certain ideas about their respective
      roles within the family and in society….

      https://ec.europa.eu/social/BlobServlet?docId=1771&langId=en

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      “So these amendments are not compatible with the a social justice agenda, which is laudable.”

      Just for clarity, a COHERENT social justice agenda is laudable, not policy that lacks coherence and compatibility with a social justice agenda. Night, night. 😉

      Contemporary Political Theory volume 17, pages 212–215 (2018)
      Foucault’s futures: A critique of reproductive reason

      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41296-017-0172-5

    138. susanXX says:

      Heartfelt post and I agree absolutely lumilumi.

    139. @lumilumi,

      You should win post of the month prize.

      The misogynists that have infected the trans community are well organised and well funded,

      there is a script/plan they use to infiltrate and influence the political,education,media,business world,

      it works like setting up a franchise in every nation,city,town,

      lot of folk on the left and woke centre left (left with money) falling for the script/act.

    140. Effijy says:

      Very good point about conditioning.

      The Tories go a almost daily from one disaster to the next
      A new outrage replaces the one that drove you mad the day before
      so there is no time for focus or organised protest before the next bomb is dropped.

      I posted a link about Scotland’s block grant being slashed by another £309 Million
      and not a word about it yesterday?

      I can’t hear anything from SNP about £2.3 Billion having been cut from our block
      grant since the Tories came to power.

      They must be laughing themselves silly at how easy it is to rob us and take us for fools without opposition.

    141. Contrary says:

      Lumilumi – excellent comment, puts down all the broad social problems of the GRA into perspective for its effects on a person, women as people, children as people that need our protection not exposure to conflicting messages ,,, link to comment: https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-change-of-plans/#comment-2566812

    142. Kenny says:

      It is quite easy to understand. It happened after the Russian revolution, in the 1920s, when a new bureaucratic elite quickly took control of the ruling Party (to the dismay of the idealistic elements).

      Of course, Orwell repeated it all in “Animal Farm”.

      Basically, if a party has a monopoly on power, a bureaucratic elite will emerge (Inner Party). Those still in the SNP and going along with Sturgeon promising an indyref in the vague future are the Outer Party. Those who have their eyes opened are the Winston Smiths on the outside.

      You often see people actually repeat the words of Winston Smith on here: I know how, I just do not know why…

    143. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Everyone

      Can I make a polite request? When replying to a post “up thread” can folk please add the time of the original post? Like many I often read this site on a smart phone & it’s really hard to keep track of interesting comments, particularly when the the thread is being spammed with endless screeds of cut and paste secondary sources that few ever read from monomaniacs like Cameron Brodie?

      It’s obviously pointless appealing to him to rein in his mania, but his flooding of BTL comments makes the longer threads next to impossible to follow, particularly viewing on ‘phone.

    144. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Interesting developments overnight re Stonewall.

      (If you want to know what a ‘reverse ferret’ is – and who wouldn’t? – have a swatch on Twitter.)

    145. Sharny Dubs says:

      Received a mail requesting I support the nomination of the local SNP candidate appointed but the NEC.
      Only one candidate nominated.
      Some choice.
      Naturally I declined.

    146. Dan says:

      @ Polly at 11.53pm

      I was going to suggest the title of a programme about the UK corruption in handing out contracts and monies to dodgy folk and their companies that makes The Mafia look like petty thieves.
      This particular mockumentary is to be about the 14 million quids going to Seaborne Freight, the shipping company with no boats, that has sunk and gone into liquidation, it’s called “Swimming with the Graylings”…

      https://twitter.com/AudreyAurus1/status/1309123359742009345

      FYI here’s a link to the live dashboard of the GB Grid.
      Scroll to the right to see the connections from Europe, which are currently important around 10% of GB grid power. Wonder what tariffs will be on that in whatever deal the Un-UK gets.

      http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    147. Dan says:

      Whilst typing on power related stuff I’ll drop in links to Craig Dalzell’s articles on grid connection charges and other stuff.

      https://thecommongreen.scot/2016/09/12/grasping-the-grid/

      https://thecommongreen.scot/2016/09/21/harnessing-potential/

    148. Effijy says:

      That Dick Leonard continues with his inane and embarrassing comments in Holyrood.

      He has to constantly refer to a script and even if the first minister has covered part 2 of his script
      within her initial response, he just reads it out anyway as he doesn’t know what to do otherwise.

      He claim SNP should have known that negligent adult students would not understand the Covid restrictions or would they stick to them?

      The universities themselves I’m sure would take measures into their own hands if they considered
      the Holyrood guidelines inadequate. They were happy with them!

      Students who require a test are tested same day and results available the next day.
      You really cannot expect anything better than this to counter the stupidity of some students.

      The same issues are happening across UK universities so it isn’t a Scottish problem!

      Now what do you think students might do if confined to their quarters with course work, lap tops
      and high speed broadband?

      The poor souls will In all likely hood study and gain better marks.

      What outrage from Labour at such circumstances.

      The majority of Dick’s MSPs don’t want him as leader but there again they
      are glad it isn’t them up there making a fool of themselves on a weekly basis.

      Students who require

    149. Margaret E says:

      I am very grateful for the invaluable reporting from the Rev and also some of the comments btl. There is no way that I want to live in the kind of state that these self-id extremists are promoting come what may. If this is independence, I want no part in it. Count me out.
      For the first time in my long life, I shall spoil my vote in the next election. I will not be party to this carve-up of science, legislation(have they thought of that) and human rights. (spoken very regretfully as a donor to, though not a member of, the SNP)

    150. Sharny Dubs says:

      Effijy @9:06

      I hear from an Edinburgh Uni student that there is a Covid spike in campuses, since she started her course she has attended physical classes twice, now returned home and working remotely full time.

    151. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      Polly, please don’t lecture me. I don’t take well to it. Thanks. And I have nothing further to say on this whole subject.

    152. Effijy says:

      In an earlier post this morning I put up a segment of a US Gov
      report that revealed UK secret services DID interfere in the last
      US elections using Dark Money.

      They went all out to put out support for Hilary Clinton with fake
      Stories with positive messages to enhance her reputation.

      As the reports findings were published in 2019 while Trump was
      President, he is obviously aware of Westminster being anti Trump.

      He is the child man who will seek revenge but cleaver enough not to
      Show his hand.

      He will put America first, along with himself, and screw the UK to the floor
      with the only significantly sized trade deal that the Tories could land.

      The Tories from a position of weakness will take any deal Trump wants just
      to wave a paper claiming to be another oven ready great deal that will bring
      Back their Empire.

    153. Dan says:

      Hmm, received an email from Monsier Murrell as my membership is due for renewal soon. I’ve held off resigning to see if there was any way my solitary member vote could influence decent candidate selection, but that is no longer relevant in my constituency.
      I don’t think I have any influence in determining which candidates stand on the Regional List.. Not that it makes any difference as I’m in an area where casting SNP on 2nd vote is pishing in the wind, unless it is specifically worded to be of another use in their manifesto).
      That being the case I now need to come up with a dramatic way of resigning that might just resonate within the organisation…

      Ques up Simon and Garfunkel’s – 50 Ways to Leave yer Lover for inspiration. 😉

      @ Rev Stu
      One line in the membership renewal email stood out re. SNP finances. Suspicious Cat is suspicious of the wording.

      In these uncertain times, we need your support more than ever. 95 per cent of our total income coming from voluntary contributions like yours.

    154. gorgielad says:

      James Devoy
      @JwDevoy
      ·
      7h
      I’m permanently leaving the country on Tuesday. I found a job in Greece. With all the love in my heart for Scotland fuck the UK. If/when the fight need fought again I’ll be back.

    155. wull says:

      Great to hear that Boris J has discovered has discovered that he has a ‘huge potential for wind’.

      How come he didn’t know it already? Everyone else did.

      Is he about to bring out a new self-help book, Dale Carnegie style? Called – no doubt – ‘The Power of Wind’.

      Bound to be a best-seller. No one knows that subject better than our Boris J.

      As for actualising his potential? Who better than Boris …?

    156. Robert Graham says:

      Dan 9:47
      Dan dont expect a drum roll or please please please stay you will get a standard thank you for your support , no question as to why you have made your decision or what could be done to change your mind , I bet you would get a better response from your local B&Q.

      I started wondering WTF was going on when I started receiving invitations to some Table events with a starting charge going into three figures , I thought Christ haven’t we moved up in the world this is more like a Black Tie event the Tory Party would run

    157. Colin Alexander says:

      Alex Salmond was treated terribly, framed for crimes he did not commit. Nobody deserves that.

      Alex Salmond is a true patriot. A true supporter of the restoration of Scotland’s national sovereignty. He, with the help of many others, helped turn the SNP from a fringe party into the biggest party in Scotland.

      But he was wrong to abandon the direct electoral mandate for indy in favour of Holyrood colonialism. A UK Indyref was a huge mistake.

      The indy movement still likes to imagine we almost won. A huge success story. The opposite is true. YES was NEVER going to win. It would not have been allowed to win. Indyref was rigged from start to finish. Also, it was a long shot. A bridge too far, at the time. A reckless abandonment of sovereignty in a long-odds voting gamble.

      It was also under Salmond that the SNP turned into a personality cult with the concentrating and centralising of power.

      It was through Salmond that the Murrell’s wokerati colonialism grip on power took place. Both Peter Murrell and Nicola Stalin came to power via Alex Salmond.

      Maybe he should have surrounded himself with patriots instead of pretty faces at Bute House.

      The rolling back of pretend democracy for Scotland, being dragged out of the EU, and the erasure of Scottish national identity in one nation England’s Britain fascist state, and the SNP civil war in which the indy supporters are the underdogs, are the results of those mistakes.

      The indy movement should face up to reality instead of hero worshipping and dreams of what might have been.

    158. Muscleguy says:

      @Jill Sharpe
      The SNP need to realise that D’Hont is set up to STOP one party gaining a majority. The got one in 2011 because they hit a sweet spot balance of constituencies and List seats. In 2016 their vote share rose, they moved of it and had to settle for minority govt again (because they cannot imagine any sort of coalition or confidence and supply deal).

      They need to realise that a majority govt formed by a coalition of parties all committed to Independence will look perffectly normal and natural to our friends in Europe. It’s the SNP’s refusal to go there which is costing them.

      Was at the Dalkieth Yes Zoom debate last night between the SNP and ISP over the List vote. The SNP person ignored the possibility of coalition and it was pointed out to him in questioning.

      It was mentioned that the Greens have ruled out going into coalition, but Greens around the world operate confidence and supply agreements instead. Has this ever been offered? I doubt it. The SNP likes being able to play them off against the Unionists. It has done deals with the Tories to get the budget passed in the past, snubbing the Greens.

      The SNP would rather do a deal with Unionist Tories than fellow Yessers which pretty much sums up their attitude to the wider Yes movement.

      Well it might come roaring back at them if the ISP can get seats. 83% of those at the Zoom meeting expressed an intention to vote for ‘other yes parties on the list’ the only option not SNP. Considering the ISP had put up David Hook our media guy that was pretty rude.

    159. Muscleguy says:

      And if they do get a majority it will be VERY slim or might evaporate on having to nominate a presiding officer. A Yes coalition on the other hand would be much more stable and look much more commanding and grown up.

      The Welsh and Northern Irish can do coalition politics, so can we.

      I’m a Kiwi as well as a Scot and coalitions are de rigeur in NZ. We have one now. NZ Labour under Jacinda are set for a big win and may even get a slim majority but may opt for a confidence and supply deal with the Greens anyway.

    160. Robert Graham says:

      o/t
      Another thought about Dan’s post RE membership , My wife received a invitation to vote for the proposed MSP in the up coming Holyrood election ( I didn’t get one because I told Murrell to stick the membership up his arse ) I didn’t get a reply just as I didn’t get a reply to the invitation to the postponed National Conference after I asked it Alex was being invited .
      Anyway back to the point I wanted to make the ballot paper had only One Name , thats One proposed candidate , the current one is doing ok as far as I know but a choice would have been nice.
      Not really any point in casting a vote if there is only one runner not so much as a odds on favourite as waste of bloody time , and i wont be looking out for the surprise result either

    161. Ottomanboi says:

      Muscleguy 10:26
      Depends if you’re hot for Ardern types and the catch all Greens.
      Scotland did have a coalition, Labour/Liberal and much good did it do.
      Coalitions are essentially flaccid and feeble unions.
      Scotland requires a party that fights on its feet for independence not a collection of shiny arsed, off message functionaries

    162. Dave Somerville says:

      Nicola Sturgeon is suffering from megalomania.

      Meaning of megalomania:-

      “An unnaturally strong wish for power and control, or the belief that you are very much more important and powerful than you really are.”

    163. stonefree says:

      @ Dan at 9:47 am

      “In these uncertain times, we need your support more than ever. 95 per cent of our total income coming from voluntary contributions like yours.“
      I found that interesting, if the membership has fallen to 70,000 then the loss of funding has dropped about 45%, and no big hitters on the horizon.
      Given that, plus the lack of accounts ,As I have waffled on “where is the money?”
      Unless clarity on finances is produced, the spending on “case workers” and “alleged canvassers” is out the window
      I don’t think financially they are in any kind of position

      I am left with thinking this was possibly a “Peter’s Ponzi Scheme”

      Re Simon and Garfunkel’s A Simple Desultory Philippic
      “I have heard the truth from Lenny Bruce”

    164. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Things must be worse than we feared – Buckingham Palace has just played the Pregnant Princess card.

    165. Hatuey says:

      Since there’s no realistic prospect of the SNP changing by itself, given that it’s very firmly in the grip of people that only seem to listen to Westminster, there’s really only two possibilities ahead;

      1) years of steady decline, denial, and disintegration.
      2) an abrupt change of leadership and direction.

      Levels of disaffection in the ranks today make a majority next year highly unlikely, if not impossible.

      But I actually think a bigger problem for the SNP than disaffection is just boredom – despite Brexit and all the other chaos of the last few years, I’ve never been so bored with politics.

      Oh, hold on, Blackford’s going to make another rousing speech in the commons, that’ll show the bastards…

      The current leadership were probably shooting for option 1 above before any of us even woke up to their lack of ambition and failures.

      What we call ‘years of steady decline’ is a highly appealing prospect for those in safe, lucrative jobs – of whom absolutely nothing is expected in terms of performance. Boy, did they deliver… Nothing.

    166. lothianlad says:

      muscleguy

      If your gonna do deals with the SNP in Midlothian….. Sup wi a long long spoon.

    167. Ottomanboi says:

      Viva! Viva! Viva! Evivva le Duci!
      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18747989.coronavirus-four-uk-nations-agree-strategy-ahead-second-wave/
      Grotesque!
      Dystopian graphic novel stuff…’cept this is REAL!
      Enjoy, you turkeys!

    168. Polly says:

      @ Dan

      🙂 I know what a grayling is only because I read Morse. Those links are good and should be shared widely, so wind doesn’t go the way of oil and most Scots don’t think of it as ours.

      @ WhoRattledYourCage

      I’m sorry if I offended you, though I will ask who is being sensitive now. Really Who…It wasn’t meant as a lecture, I doubt many respond favourably to that, I just wanted to expand on why I took issue, as you’ll find many women now will, with any comments about women’s age or looks. As I stated I enjoyed your post otherwise. Again please accept my apology if I caused umbrage, it wasn’t my intention.

    169. Alf Baird says:

      Ottomanboi @ 10:57

      Correct, Scotland is not looking to elect any more devolved colonial governments to further oppress its people. The next election is about Scotland electing national representatives who are totally committed to independence and liberating the people, nothing else. No party policies needed, only one objective – independence. After Scotland is independent there can be elections on policy matters.

    170. Polly says:

      @ Colin

      ‘It was also under Salmond that the SNP turned into a personality cult with the concentrating and centralising of power.
      It was through Salmond that the Murrell’s wokerati colonialism grip on power took place.’

      I hate to say it but you’re correct. His resigning did leave them totally in charge.

    171. Ron Maclean says:

      Backup helps.

      Resolution 74/113 adopted by United Nations General Assembly on 13 December 2019 includes;

      ‘Reaffirms once again that the existence of colonialism in any form or manifestation, including economic exploitation, is incompatible with the Charter of the United Nations, the Declaration of the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.’

    172. MaggieC says:

      An excellent article from Joanna Cherry in The National today ,

      “ Being on Snp’s NEC should be about Independence not personal vendettas “ .

      https://archive.vn/XBgh8

      I’m surprised that she’s still in the party after the way that she has been treated by certain members of the NEC and the party . It’s time for Mps and Msps to become more vocal and show their support for Joanna .

    173. Polly says:

      @ stonefree

      ‘As I have waffled on “where is the money?”
      Unless clarity on finances is produced, the spending on “case workers” and “alleged canvassers” is out the window
      I don’t think financially they are in any kind of position’

      According to Gerry Fisher on a previous article, the Weir one, (it was really the icon from conference he should know the rules) there’s nothing in the rules to preclude the National Treasurer Colin Beattie from sharing the information on funding with the membership. I know what Kenny MacAskill said too so maybe it’s another question for the CEO or leader to answer.

    174. Polly says:

      @ Andy Ellis at 8.42

      Sorry Andy I will remember to add time in future to my replies if it makes it easier for you. Not sure if any of mine or any I reply to will be of interest to you but if it makes it easier on your eyes on a phone, or even if it just makes it easier for you to avoid, I’ll do it. 🙂

    175. Roger says:

      “who is the party’s official Gender WooWoo spokesbeing at Westminster”

      Brilliant line….

    176. Balaaargh says:

      @ottomanboi,

      The only thing grotesque is your right-wing, conspiracy-clad creations of FUD. There is nothing controversial in that article whatsoever. You haven’t answered my previous questions, name a more serious pandemic this century and how many times a day are you washing your hands?

    177. Ottomanboi says:

      Alf Baird. 11:28
      The theory behind devolution was an intention to divert attention from independence.
      Seems to have worked. Administering Scotland for the British state is now the theme song.
      A song without end?

    178. Hatuey says:

      Has anyone ever thought to ask or explain why it’s necessary for Sturgeon to make these speeches every day?

    179. Ottomanboi says:

      Balaaaaagh 12:04
      https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-deadliest-epidemics-of-the-21st-century-till-date.html
      Whether an event is labelled pandemic or not is a political issue and seemingly dependent on the ethnicity of the populations affected.
      According to the Covid-19 story Africa should have been very, very vulnerable. However, like Sweden, ‘the problem’ is receding.
      Btw what does ‘right wing’ actually mean?
      Rhetorical question, not particularly interested in any definition.

    180. Ottomanboi says:

      All Glory, Honour and Praise to the Holy Virus.
      Thou art the Most Mighty!
      https://off-guardian.org/2020/09/24/time-for-bed-says-corona/
      Thank providence I’m a Covid atheist.

    181. stonefree says:

      @ Polly says:
      25 September, 2020 at 11:45 am
      The reference to the Ponzi, was about the Yes collection that was set up by the SNP and administered by the SNP, but it collect a lot of money from non-SNP member.
      As a non member a person can’t ask where the SNP money has went, only members can
      With the Indy money anyone who donated can ask, where it was/or where it was spent, it was collected for a specific purpose.Independence not to keep the SNP personal in the manner they have become accustomed to .
      That reason has been removed from the website although it still takes donations the running total doesn’t exist,the non-member has no proof what they donated to they have the location and the amount, but not the purpose of the donation
      The question is along with a good few others Was the collection for the purpose that it was promoted for?
      Or just a deception?
      That is my reasoning

    182. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Just a wee reminder for those who may not have seen this letter from the Harassment Committee, to Peter Murrell (my bold) –

      ‘Secondly, my letter also requested copies of any communications in relation to the complaints made under the Scottish Government Procedure on handling of harassment complaints involving current or former ministers between the SNP and:
      a. the former First Minister, Alex Salmond;
      b. the First Minister, in her capacity as First Minister;
      c. the First Minister’s Chief of Staff; and
      d. any other relevant individuals (for example other special advisers or relevant communications between senior SNP staff).

      In your submission you stated, “the SNP has no communications between it and any of the individuals listed in your letter, in relation to the complaints raised under the Scottish Government procedure on handling of harassment complaints invoicing current or former ministers”.

      Again, I would be grateful if you would confirm whether you conferred with colleagues on this aspect of your submission, including, but not limited to:

      • Nicola Sturgeon, Party Leader;
      • Liz Lloyd, Special Adviser to the Party Leader;
      • Ian McCann, Compliance Manager;
      • Sue Ruddick, Chief Operating Officer; and
      • any other special advisers or SNP staff relevant to the inquiry.

      If you did not confer with colleagues in this regard I would ask that you now do so and submit further written evidence to the Committee, providing details of any and all communications requested in my original letter that may be relevant.

      Again, the information we are seeking includes, but is not limited to, emails, minutes, notes, texts, papers and WhatsApp messages from all levels of the SNP.

      The Committee look forward to receiving your response as soon as is practicable.

      Yours sincerely

      Linda Fabiani MSP
      Convener, Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of
      Harassment Complaints’

      That letter was sent to him on September 9th.

      https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/General%20documents/20200909ConvenertoPeterMurrell.pdf

    183. Dave Somerville says:

      ANOTHER Ulster accent in the Sturgeon daily briefing today.

      She is some head of health apparently.

      NHS Scotland looked high and low,,,and just couldn’t find a qualified enough Scot to fill the post.

      The Ulsterisation of Scotland continues.

      You know you are guaranteed a No Vote with these loyal Unionists.

    184. Beaker says:

      @Kenny says:
      25 September, 2020 at 8:32 am
      “Basically, if a party has a monopoly on power, a bureaucratic elite will emerge (Inner Party).”

      That’s how Stalin came to power, despite Lenin warning against him.

      Same with Bormann, Hitler’s secretary but in reality his deputy once Hess popped over to Scotland. He was a bureaucratic genius with superb organisational skills. He was also an evil bastard. Not a combination you want.

    185. Republicofscotland says:

      Cherry calling for NEC members to be sacked, will it fall on deaf ears? More than likely.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18746910.joanna-cherry-calls-snp-delegates-sack-nec-members-vendettas/

    186. Republicofscotland says:

      The Chancellor of the Exchequers new plans of paying only 22% of workers wages will devastate Scotland’s economy says our own Finance Minister Katie Forbes. The Tories are attempting to destroy Scotland’s economy ( we have very little borrowing powers) to force an independence referendum off the table.

      Today however the British media reported that the UK, not England that holds the purse strings, is over £2 trillion pounds in debt.

      We can’t afford to remain in this unfit for purpose union.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18746907.scotlands-tourism-hospitality-sectors-face-devastation-new-jobs-scheme/

    187. Mike d says:

      Dave somerville 12.52pm
      You got that right in one dave.

    188. Black Joan says:

      Are we sure Anne McLaughlin isn’t Peter Murrell in a long blonde wig? It could explain a lot.

    189. kapelmeister says:

      This is what we want. MacAskill and Cherry both on the warpath.

    190. Balaaargh says:

      @phonebook,

      FUD, FUD, and more FUD. I already addressed most of those in the last thread. None of those in your linked article come close to the claim you made whether they are pandemics or epidemics. So name one.

      How many times are you washing your hands?

    191. Balaaargh says:

      Ha, damn autocorrect! ??

      That last post was @ottomanboi.

    192. Hatuey says:

      Thanks for that, Ian brotherhood.

      When can we expect him to cooperate and respond?

    193. Joe says:

      Balaaargh says:

      How many times are you washing your hands?

      Out of curiosity – what is this fixation with the mans personal hygiene?

    194. Breastplate says:

      Balaaargh,
      Are you advocating a national lockdown or not, I’m not actually sure what your thoughts are concerning a future exit strategy.

    195. MaggieC says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 12.49 pm

      I see that LeggyPeggy posted all the links to the correspondence between the committee and Peter Murrell on the previous post yesterday ,

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-none-of-your-business-convener/comment-page-1/#comment-2566638

      And at

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-none-of-your-business-convener/comment-page-1/#comment-2566648

    196. Effijy says:

      BBC propaganda news giving free reign to the Unionist parties
      to blacken the SNP over their handling of the Student Civid outbreak.

      Tory and Labour seem to forget that the SNP managed Health Service
      has out perform England and Wales where both parties mismanage their NHSs.

      Both countries also have higher numbers of Covid cases and deaths proportionately.

      Did you notice how none of the Unionist parties has the crystal ball they say the
      First minister should have had.
      Where was their registered concern about the students return?
      They demanded they go back and go back they did.

      Most idiotic plea was their concern that isolated students can’t go home this weekend to their parents and they are going to be so lonely?
      What just a few days after starting term they are going to die as they can only see and speak to everyone they know on their lap top for free over a period of 14 days?

      Covid will be in every UK university but ask those in England if they would
      Rather be isolated for 14 days or leave University with £30-40,000 of debt.

      Ask them if Holyrood admitting their exam estimations were wrong immediately and
      Rectifying it was better organised than the English fiasco!

    197. The Dissident says:

      @Hatuey

      The reasons why NS needs to do these briefings every day are as follows:

      1. She is a control freak
      2. She cannot risk allowing anyone else to look as if they might be able to lead and thereby dilute the illusion of her irreplaceability
      3. She needs to be able to cover up her previous deceits and mistakes on her own terms
      4. She needs all the political capital that daily televised media briefings can give her in order to fight off ‘other matters’

      I know a lot of people think this is about her sense of duty, her empathy and whatever else but basically it is all about her need to control and perform. It always has been.

      I am reliably informed that her first instruction to the civil service on assuming the position of FM was ‘make sure I am on TV every day’.

      The fact that she does these every day has also robbed the Government of being able to effectively EMPHASISE some messages through her occasional leading of briefings in the event of particularly important data or developments.

      My impression is that the Scottish Government has managed this as if it is a gigantic PR campaign rather than a public health emergency.

    198. Breastplate says:

      Effijy,
      Should we close colleges, universities and schools?
      If so, Why? If not, why not?

    199. Dorothy Devine says:

      Some real ordure being spouted here.

    200. Lindsey says:

      Wel, she immediately locked her Twitter account so no one could contact her

    201. CameronB Brodie says:

      Oh look, a concerted effort to undermine solidarity for the principles of “universality”, “equality in law”, and the “right to health”. And I’m not talking about the right-wingers btl on WOS. I’m talking about the SNP, who appear as determined as English Torydum, to deny Scots the justice of Common law jurisprudence, as well as the right to a legally defensible identity.

      Gender, discourse and the public sphere
      https://shura.shu.ac.uk/3155/2/10701138.pdf

    202. CameronB Brodie says:

      sorry….undermine solidarity of support for the principles….

      Gender and Far Right
      Politics in Europe

      https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-319-43533-6.pdf

    203. Balaaargh says:

      @breastplate,

      No, I am not advocating a national lockdown. The real figures from the start of the year are a known unknown so I do think a lockdown then was an appropriate, if extreme, response. The daily figures point to community transmission on the rise but should not be interpreted as being equal to those of six months ago. Testing and tracking is more advanced since then by, well, the nature of it existing.

      No government in their right mind wants a lockdown, they need taxpayers money to funnel to their offshore havens! Every time I read some COVID conspiracy garbage, I am reminded of the South park episode, “Who did 9/11?”

      And @joe, my point on personal hygiene is very much a reference to the rise in community transmission and the common sense hygiene requests which shouldn’t need to be enforced on the populace! Fetishising curves on graphs from different countries helps no-one. They’re not science, they’re statistical interpretations of the results of science. No, Sweden didn’t do lockdown but they didn’t do nothing either. The people listened to the advice, used a bit of common sense and followed the rules but tey still suffered more heavily in comparison to their nordic neighbours.

      Meanwhile, the UK and the US is full of people who put “ma liburty” and quote junk science and “Only .1% die!” As if that’s the only thing bad about it!

      Just because our covid atheist doesn’t believe in it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. A colleague in my team was off for several weeks because of it. A security guard from my office building died from it in early April.

      This can all be avoided. Regular hand washing – especially after you’ve been in public places, keep a 6feet/2m distance from folk and cover your mouth and nose when you’re in an indoor public place.

      I don’t want a lockdown. I want to go back to the pub with my mates. I want to go to gigs and take my son to the pictures. And if following basic hygiene and wearing a mask for a few minutes a day helps that? Then that’s what I’ll do.

    204. Joe says:

      @Balaaargh

      You sound very scared, confused and desperate.

      Not of Covid

      But of reality.

    205. Scozzie says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 12.49pm

      What baffles me is why there’s not a outcry that internal communications were being done across Whatsapp – there is meant to be a proper audit trail on all government and civil service communications.

      Since when did Whatsapp become a comms tool of government or party business comms? That in itself should be a bloody mahoosive red flag for people…not that the party faithful will give their conscience a shake right enough!

      And it begs the question – what other corrupt practices are being conducted ‘out of sight’ outwith official government communication systems? And as someone else posted – why is Murrell still in his position when so many others have been flung under the bus (in virtually every case, unjustly).

      The SNP’s behaviour is now no better than the Tories.

    206. Balaaargh says:

      @joe,

      You’re projecting again.

    207. Breastplate says:

      Balaaargh,
      I agree with much of what you say, it doesn’t help anyone to suggest that the virus doesn’t exist.

      I’m interested in how people attribute value or not to mental health, physical wellbeing, financial implications, social ramifications and how that affects the future generations.

      It will be the younger generation that will pay for any poor decisions made now.

    208. Joe says:

      @Balaaargh

      What do you mean ‘again’? Is that you in there Cameron?

      Anyway –

      Ive done a lot of my own looking at official stats vs official narratives etc and for me the virus itself is the least of our worries. Despite knowing a 25 year old guy who died of it. All this stuff I posted in previous threads.

      There are a lot of people whose contribution to the conversation is pretty much the same as if any of us just turned on our TV (those that still have them) and there’s not much else to say really.

      I will wait until the screws get tightened and people wake up whether they will it or not. Hopefully it wont be too late.

    209. Balaaargh says:

      @breastplate,

      I agree with that. I’ve suffered from depression all of my adult life and never been a fan of WFH so the lockdown did hit me hard. I feel that we had one chance to nip it in the bud but we’ve squandered it. Which explains my kinda bit ranty post.

      I don’t know how we recover. I think, globally, most countries economies are f*ked for the next 3-5 years. Except China (who went total authoritarian regime on the people) and New Zealand (who took full advantage of their island status).

    210. Balaaargh says:

      @joe,

      I’ve been called many things but never a sock puppet of CBB.

      I don’t have a tv so I get my news online from different sites. And I did read your posts, which is one of the reasons I mentioned the South park post.

    211. A Person says:

      -Dissident, Hatuey-

      Narcissism is the term you’re looking for. Or in layman’s terms a huge ego, a certainty you can do no wrong, that you deserve attention, an extreme vanity. Hardly uncommon among senior politicians, Trump, Johnson, Bill Clinton, Macron, Sarkozy, Corbyn all the same. The bonkers “Jo Swindon for PM“ campaign was an especially ludicrous example. When I was a youngster Australian leader Bob Hawke struck me as an acute case. Certainly there will be many on “our side” that are the same- even Salmond would admit he has a huge ego. But to me the “I’m with Nicola” campaign alongside the insistence on doing a daily briefing is the clincher.

    212. CameronB Brodie says:

      “You’re projecting again.”

      That’s all this evangelist for the radical right appears to have, once they’ve depleted their limited intellectual armory.

      Getting It From Both Sides: Foundational and Antifoundational Critiques of Psychiatry

      Although the foundational and antifoundational traditions differ in their language and claims, both call into question the legitimacy of psychiatric diagnosis and treatment.

      Western institutional psychiatry has been the target of numerous social, philosophical, and scientific critiques over the past century, sometimes lumped together as manifestations of antipsychiatry.1

      In actuality, psychiatry’s critics have proceeded from 2 widely divergent sets of assumptions, although they have generally reached similar conclusions. Both foundational and antifoundational critiques have had the effect of discrediting and marginalizing psychiatry and of delegitimizing psychiatric diagnosis and nosology.

      Foundational and antifoundational philosophies

      Foundational philosophies hold that we can reliably describe a coherent, objectively measurable or discernible reality or truth, whether one considers the world as a whole or specific aspects of it, such as the classification of disease. Logical positivism is a specific manifestation of the foundational worldview and regards all genuine knowledge as based on logical inference grounded in observable facts; indeed, only empirically verifiable statements are regarded as meaningful by logical positivists.2

      The best-known foundational critique of psychiatric diagnosis comes from Thomas Szasz.1,3 In essence, Szasz argues that we know that real (genuine) disease entails the presence of pathological lesions or abnormal pathophysiology1,2; we know that “diseases” such as schizophrenia do not consistently demonstrate such objectively verifiable abnormalities; therefore, we know that schizophrenia (and similar psychiatric fabrications) cannot be genuine, ontologically real diseases.3

      In contrast, antifoundational philosophies and philosophers assert that there are no objectively demonstrable truths; rather, there are only various perspectives or narratives that cannot be privileged as uniquely or objectively true. Although there is no fully satisfactory definition of postmodernism, we consider antifoundational critiques of psychiatry a subset of postmodern philosophies, most of which tend to subvert, negate, or delegitimize the Western rational-empirical tradition.

      Thus, the postmodern theorist Francois Lyotard denies the legitimacy of “grand narratives” – essentially, cultural myths that merely serve “. . . to mask the contradictions and instabilities that are inherent in any social organization or practice.”4 Western science, in the postmodern view, tends to be associated with coercive power and oppression….

      https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/getting-it-both-sides-foundational-and-antifoundational-critiques-psychiatry

      N.B. We know the biological differences between the sexes are not a cultural myth, because of the insight medical science gives us into the nature of the human genome and human cognition.

    213. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. silly me, I’m forgetting the existence of babies and Mother’s day. 🙂

      STATE OF DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS AND THE RULE OF LAW

      Role of institutions
      Threats to institutions

      An analysis of democracy, human rights and the rule of law in Europe, based on the findings of the Council of Europe monitoring mechanisms and bodies ALBANIA

      https://www.theioi.org/downloads/1k6ib/CoE_State%20of%20Democracy%20HR%20and%20Rule%20of%20Law_2018_EN.pdf

    214. Hatuey says:

      The Dissident at 2.06

      I think you came close to perfection with that response…

      Chapeau!

    215. Heather Sibbald says:

      One fact that Anne McLaughlin and all GRA idealists forget, is that the whole concept might fly beautifully in trendy Edinburgh, but there is not one single Glasgow Ned who will tolerate anyone who has XY Chromosomes being in the same changing room or toilet as his child. Make no mistake about this. The Trans Taliban who intend on forcing themselves on any Womens’ space in Glasgow will probably not survive the encounter.

    216. stonefree says:

      @ Heather Sibbald 2020 at 7:09 pm

      Very well said

    217. bipod says:

      @Balaaarg

      Thats only if you believe the chinese figures on covid. New Zealands economy is certainly in trouble, they didn’t just go for a full authoritarian lockdown they also went for more importantly a lockout crippling their economy. They are now in the situation where they can’t ease the lockdown or lockout one bit and are waiting for some magical silver bullet to solve all of their problems.

    218. CameronB Brodie says:

      The right-wing are determined undermine a respect for public health ethics, along with solidarity in our support for the legal principles of “universality” and “equality in law”. This is because the right-wing are ideologically opposed to the rule-of-law, which they feel constrains their liberties.

      11th International Critical Management Studies Conference
      “Precarious Presents, Open Futures”

      http://business-school.open.ac.uk/sites/business-school.open.ac.uk/files/files/ICMS/Abstracts-Booklet.pdf

    219. stonefree says:

      @ Scozzie at 2:57 pm
      “why is Murrell still in his position when so many others have been flung under the bus”
      My conspiracy theory is Murrell is the SNP data controller, so he has details of all members There has been a few things over the years. But take Mackay he was the finance minister, I believe it would be foolish not to consider Murrell did not know about the texting and all, and all the grubby secrets beyond that.
      He would have control
      Don’t dismiss lightly,the idea is not so absurd

    220. Polly says:

      @ stonefree at 12:48 pm

      Thanks for the explanation. I’m with you in thinking there should be more transparency. Also in agreement about Murrell.

      @ Cameron

      https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/duque/files/pluralistic_ignorance_and_social_change_new_1027.pdf

      Thanks for your link to this site. Though I’d never heard the term pluralistic ignorance I did recognise the behaviours described, think we all have. It was interesting seeing it argued in the context of America during segregation, but equally applicable here at present. I found it very interesting. Thanks.

    221. David Caledonia says:

      Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

    222. David Caledonia says:

      Any takers ?

    223. David Caledonia says:

      Life is as it is, its not the way we want it to be, I wonder what Wallace or Bruce would have said about the SNP and the clowns who are running the show there today
      I wonder if any of those two great patriots would have refused to vote just because Nicola Sturgeon and her pointless friends where passing pointless laws
      We can yap on here until we are blue in the face, or we can face up to the reality of the situation and fight to change it metaphorically speaking
      Did you go to the pub and leave at 10pm, well if you did you are not a fighter, I was in the pub on thursday, but i was not there on friday and I will not be there as long as there is such a thing as 10pm closing, I go along with all the crap coming out of the edinburgh hollywood, I even go to the shops on a bus with my mask on, which btw is disinfected every night, one sore throat is enough for me thank you very much
      We had a big gathering on saturday in england very few where wearing masks and the fuzz where out in force as usual when these events happen, but not one non mask wearer was arrested, that’s the power we have, we just ignore them and they can do nothing about it, there are to many of us for them to control
      As cameron has said, there is common law, and common law can not be beaten if you stand your ground whether it be in a court of law or on the streets of this land
      I am a man. I am not a name on a piece of paper, I do not exist on a piece of paper, that is not me, and I will not tolerate anyone thinking it is me, I refuse to accept their labels and their legal crap in any shape or form, I am not the occupant of a house as the tv licence people say, how can anyone write a letter to the occupant, its not even legal, Is there someone in your house called The occupant, its a little con trick to get you to pay a licence that is a piece of crap anyway and why anyone ever paid it is beyond me
      There is one man I can think of who was a man of Independent thought, and that man was Winston Randolph, he would never be a Boris Johnstone supporter or accept his governments attack on our civil liberties, he was in france standing there while the german’s where throwing everything over, one of his people said Winston get down, and Winston said, I will not die this day, god has bigger plans for me, god gave him to us in our time of need and he took us to victory in the war, so he was right about god’s plan for him, he was a man that new the people would not let him down and he would never have let the people down
      A bit of a long rant from me, but one I really enjoyed

      Have a nice day, me well my day will be constructive, putting some decking down in my back garden, if that rain comes on I will be joining the conspiracy theorists lol



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