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Wings Over Scotland

A careful choice of words

Posted on April 23, 2016 by

With fears growing that hundreds of jobs may be lost in the Clyde shipyards as the UK government slowly backs away from the commitments made during the independence referendum campaign, Kezia Dugdale was full of righteous outrage last night.


But note how delicately that tweet is phrased. The clear implication – while not directly stated – is that only the Tories were responsible for the promises.

Is that the case, though?










To be honest, we’re not seeing a lot of Tories making promises in there. It seems to have been pretty much all Labour politicians who went to the shipyards with their red and yellow banners and told the workers there that a No vote guaranteed their jobs.

(After all, how many self-respecting union workers on Red Clydeside would ever have believed promises coming from a Conservative government? It would have had to be someone the poor sods trusted who got sent to deliver that message.)

Then again, Kezia Dugdale was in “Better Together” and we weren’t, so perhaps we should bow to her superior knowledge and experience of working with Tories.

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382 to “A careful choice of words”

  1. Quentin Quale says:

    To carry out the Tories bidding on Clydeside is the ultimate act of Labour betraying its roots. They probably thought the wipe-out in the GE was their low point and they could start to rebuild. I think not. They are finished.

  2. Rob says:

    I hear more about “holding to account” than being held to account these days. Not good for blood pressure.

  3. AllyPally says:

    When does the addendum to the Wee Black Book come out?

  4. Grouse Beater says:

    The sheer, brazen dishonesty of the Labour party and its empty promises is nauseas.

    They share Tory policies, the same Tory economics, and the same Tory foreign policy, the same attitude to Scotland as one giant land bank, and then have the temerity to present themselves to Scotland’s electorate as different from all the parties.

    They can’t bring themselves to face truth.

    Instead, they send in their paid thugs such as John Reid to pacify ‘troublemakers’.

  5. Joemcg says:

    Three words…snake oil salesmen.

  6. Sandra says:

    Maybe she meant Red Tories?

  7. Ken500 says:

    It is just depressing these people keep on repeating the same behaviour in spite of all the evidence. Never trust a Tory. After Thatcher how could anyone vote Tory Unionist in Scotland.

    An Independent Scotland could have £1/2Billion spent on Trident and £4Billion repayments made on loans not borrowed or spent in Scotland to invest in building frigates etc. It is pathetic. Vote NO you get nothing but broken promises.

  8. HandandShrimp says:

    I said this over on the Groaniard

    Better Together’s problem is that like the Lib Dems they trusted the Tories.

    That close association is now biting Labour on the arse.

  9. mogabee says:

    Pretty sickening all this really.

    How long before it’s all the SNP’s fault?

  10. Hamish100 says:

    …..and the role of the trades unions? Did the GMB in particular really represent their members or did they “dae as they were telt” by the Brit Labour Party.
    GMB and labour plotted against Scotland.
    So can we have a quote from the GMB arguing why the Ruk Union is beneficial. Are they hiding?

    Labour are done for. Tories are tories . Scotland will pay for for the sins of the two faced unions and labour.

    SNP 1&2 . Independence is an option.

  11. Its the standard Labour tactic blame their partners the Tories for the threat of the los of jobs in the shipyards.

    And hope the people will have forgotten that Labour politicians made the same promises that only a no vote would safeguard the shipyard and the jobs

  12. lanarkist says:

    They are just continuing with their duplicity.

    Gordon Brown bellowing his promises on behalf of B.T when he was never in a position to deliver on any of them and now Kezia trying to distance herself and her party from the promises they made on behalf of their friends in the Tory Party.

    They must hope and believe that the voting public have memories as porous as the Scot. Labour Party seem to portray.

  13. Breeks says:

    One betrayal is an outrage. A hundred betrayals is a statistic. No remorse, no humility, no regret. Business as usual. But hey, Scotland still makes the finest brass necks in all of Christendom.

  14. Nana says:

    A couple of links

    Was the Thornberry woman one of the imperial marchers who came to Scotland before the vote

    Thornberry to Fallon letter re Clyde ships.

    Did the GMB not campaign against independence
    Gmb union betrayal at the base

  15. Lying, two-faced troglodytes. Time to gut them, root and branch, from the Scots body politic.

  16. katherine hamilton says:

    This is truly desperate stuff. Looking at those pictures brought me up a bit, to be honest. Horrible memories. I didn’t think it possible, but my hatred for the Labour Party just intensified. With her weasel tweet, Dugdale has finally gone beyond the pale.

    5th May must be her day of humiliation. It just must.

  17. Ken500 says:

    Sometimes you just want to scream ‘Dafties’.

  18. Clydebuilt says:

    Scott Lithgows was sold (given away would be more accurate) to Trafalgar House by Margaret Thatcher’s Tories. This would not have been possible if The Red Tories had not Nationalised the yard. About 4 / 5 years before this Scott Lithgows had built the most advanced ship in the world …. the Iolaire. Check out Google for images of this vessel. It’s so long ago now that’ it’s startling that we used to have the ability as a nation to create the likes of the Iolaire. This ship could be used to instill anger at our current predicament. And confidence that we are capable of much more than the status quo.
    Check her out!

  19. Cuilean says:

    I have zero sympathy for the people who voted NO including these ship workers. They put their selfish job interests first, before their fellow citizens. Socialists? No. Only when the yards are closed will they listen. Maybe that is what has to happen, to make these eejits vote YES as again they will only be thinking of themselves. Socialists? No. (My father was a time served Hastie’s yard apprentice and later a merchant navy chief engineer).

    To hell with the No voters. They have no-one to blame but themselves and they doomed the rest of us to at least 10, 15 20 more years o this hellish union for their precious jobs. Hell mend them. My sympathy lies with the people at foodbanks etc.

  20. David S. Briggs says:

    Hamish100 says:

    We are always told that the Unions are the paymasters of the British Labour Party. They have betrayed their members by backing the ‘No’ vote. Time they started giving their cash to a Party that will defend them.

  21. Breeks says:

    And don’t forget the bigger picture; the management issue where Scotland, the oil producing Nation which produced its own high quality steel and already boasted a world renowned shipbuilding industry; a fishing nation with an island spotted coastline which relies of ferry boats somehow can’t support a ship building industry without the charitable disposition of the UK military. How do those figures work out???

    If me must continue to forfeit our sovereignty like this, can’t we forfeit some of it to Norway? They seem to know what they’re doing. Westminster is just taking the piss,… and everything else.

  22. carjamtic says:

    IMO the Tories have accepted that Scotland will be Independant sooner rather than later,are in the process of turning the country into a wasteland.

    Aided and abetted,by the Labour Party in Scotland and their London pals,the knife of never letting go.

    There is ‘no we told you so’moment here,just fcuk off,get out of the way of folk who actually give a shit.

  23. Hamish100 says:

    Hoots on the noo – reports on the story. The Herald? Nope. Seems strange when it is in The National. Does tend to suggest the Herald Editor believes that news in the National is enough no need to report it in the Herald. Duplicity?

  24. NeconNat says:

    With almost 2 weeks to go, this isn’t good for Labour.

    I’m expecting their manifesto to include a lie on the scale of The Vow. I’m also expecting one or even two big negative stories aimed at the SNP to appear this week. You can set your watch by these things.

    We have a horrible week ahead of us.

  25. Almannysbunnet says:

    Barely 18 months ago and she thinks we have forgotten who was front and centre of the No campaign? Won’t be long before Kez and Ruthie put out a joint statement blaming Nicola.

    Get out the vote, get out the unionists! 12 days and counting.

    SNP x 2

  26. Tombee says:

    That excruciating piece to camera orated by John Reid, makes me sick to the pit of my stomach. It should be played back to him, preferably, during a live audience debate in the largest hall in Scotland. Before he is questioned, in depth, by the very people who will now suffer as a consequence of his utter deceit.

  27. gordoz says:

    The Labour party right enough.

    Honesty ? Slipeery as eels floppin about trying t wriggle out of everything, but remember one blow to the head and all is still.

    No more wriggling.

    Come on Scotland get rid of this lot once and for all

    Labour = Liars

  28. gordoz says:

    The Labour party right enough.

    Honesty ? Slippery as eels floppin about trying t wriggle out of everything, but remember one blow to the head and all is still.

    No more wriggling.

    Come on Scotland get rid of this lot once and for all

    Labour = Liars

  29. Scott says:

    Let us not forget the BBC in all this they were always very ready to report these stories with there no slant,as Cuilean says I have no sympathy for these no voters who believed all the crap they were told by these unionist parties.

  30. Ivor Tagan says:

    Re the video Scottish Labour – An Indyref reminder
    I think its rather telling that Lord Reid makes no commitment to investment, at 53s the word “may” is used when referring to investment/work on the Clyde.

  31. K1 says:

    Shower of utter bastards, that tweet from Dugdale’s tells you all you need to know about Labour in Scotland, they’ll rewrite history to keep troughing on the public purse on the back of selling out the shipyard workers.

    Hypocricy isn’t a strong enough term to describe this blatant and flagrant display of sheer brass neckness: ‘vote for us cause we blame the Tories for your job losses, even though we used every imaginable weapon in our arsenal of deceit to frighten you into believing your jobs were safe by remaining a part of rUK.’

    Labour have no place ‘left’ in Scotland, time we removed these shameless Red Tories from our shores. They are an embarrassment of jobsworths who happily worked alongside the Tories in a coalition of Better Together to destroy Scotland’s future prospects.

    If those who vote Labour and voted No cannot now see how they are being royally screwed by the party formally known as socialists, then they really are party to the continuing shafting unfolding. God have mercy on yer souls.

  32. Joemcg says:

    If we had a non biased press we could hold these people to account. Reid, Lamont,Curran etc over this issue and McConnell, Brown and that wee erse Wilson over PFI, he was in charge of PFI for fuck sake and yet to be taken to task! What a joke.

  33. Triangular Ears says:

    This will be spun by Labour as being the SNP’s fault because the UK can’t trust Scotland after we had the cheek to think about leaving; uncertainty of neverendum etc.

    On another note, I saw Johann Lamont (and husband, presumably – didn’t see his face) on the train late last night on the way home. She was extremely serious looking and seemed to be slightly nervous. I guess this news may explain it. Perhaps worried in case there were any yard workers on the same train?

  34. Calum McKay says:

    Stuart’s point about the message to the men and women building ships on the Clyde having to be delivered by labour and not the tories is an excellent observation.

    The delivery of the message of union good and self determination bad, has been delivered by labour for decades to Scots. What has changed, labour are no longer trusted, they did not see plans hatched in London with the tories and delivered jointly by both labour and tories on the same platform in Scotland would ineffect, destroy them.

    labour are the main engineers of their own demise, if labour were an animal it would be put down humanly, unlike Ian Davidson who beleieved bayoneting independence voters best way to deal with them.

    I wonder what high paid jobs or consultancies Ian Davidson and Lord Reid have, I bet it doesn’t involve furthering the welfare of those who worked in ship yards?

    labour are useless, lie to your face and can’t be trusted!

  35. Macart says:

    Sold, literally down the river.

    I feel for the workers, they were constantly fed carrot and stick by their employers, the unions and Labour politicians, though mainly stick.

    I never want to hear those fuckers use that Tartan Tory bollox EVER again. We can see for ourselves who the true Tartan Tories always were. This isn’t even a matter for debate or dispute. It’s matter of public record. It’s a matter of FACT.

    Labour and the unions made those threats and those promises. That they should even think of sliding away from any responsibility or culpability is beneath contempt. Just hold up your hands for once in your pitiful lives and own that you were wrong.

    They were wrong to put party politics before people. They were wrong to trust and side with the Tories and they were wrong to campaign against a fully empowered Scottish parliament. We had a chance to break from that corrupt, patronage ridden byre and its system of government. Y’know, the fucking system they were created to fight in the first place.

    Those workers had a chance not to rely on the next damn contract that may or may not appear from HMG, but build and maintain a Scottish navy. FFS! Of course an independent Scotland would require their skills for the long term.

    Now? Now those workers are going to have a long hard wait to see IF they have a future.

  36. gordoz says:

    Heard a great one from an elderly Lady while out leafleting

    “Half of this country is acting like we’re already an Independent Nation son; we just need to wait for the rest to catch up ”

    Great slogan – “Catch up with the SNP we’re going places” ?

  37. Almannysbunnet says:

    carjamtic says:
    IMO the Tories have accepted that Scotland will be Independant sooner rather than later,are in the process of turning the country into a wasteland.

    I’m beginning to suspect that myself. They won’t let us go willingly but ever the mean spirited pragmatists they are setting things up just in case. Ship contracts gone, HMRC gone, green subsidies gone, carbon capture gone. Scorched earth policy, no doubt about it. Strange way to treat their supporters who won them a No vote.
    We already have the S designator on our tax forms and you can ever choose Scotland as your country on the DVLA website now. No need for long drawn out negotiations when we all vote yes. Once they finish their attempt to destroy Scotland they will cut us adrift with glee and we will leave with glee. We can have a nice fresh start on our bit of scorched earth.

  38. peekay says:

    They should be made to hand deliver any redundancy notices

  39. Neil Cook says:

    If you vote Labour its the same as voting for a Turd, you know its a shit but you haven’t got a brain cell to know the difference!

    Same as giving money to a Union, they don’t act in your best interests and you would be as well putting your subs through the next doors letterbox to look after it.

  40. John Edgar says:

    The Tories certainly know how to skelp Slab and hurl it downwards. Kid on they are all better together, proclaim EVEL and administer the coup-de- grâce to Gordo and now renege on the rest! Slab have certainly taken a guid few clouts from the Tories. If they dive any more and go off radar, what next? So far Gordo has gone silent!
    The Slab are at present rootless; they cannot link up with the better together-pro-yoonie party led by Ruth, as they are Tories and they have just realised it! They trumpet SNP baad and the LibDems are off radar? Will they just go extinct like the dodo and a few fossilised Lords of Slab will be the only remnants? They only have one MP at Westminster. The Slab peers are a fitting remnant. A job for life while their former supporters on Clydeside face an uncertain future and their trade union reps must regret listening to those Glasgow MPs of Slab who promised them a false dawn. Where are they now? Hiding?
    How much more can the supporters of the union take before they realise it is a busted flush?

  41. Ruby says:

    It seems ‘Ruth & Her Bull’ is a more important story for the press in Scotland than this story about shipbuilding!

  42. heedtracker says:

    The whole UKOK lie machine is at, rancid The Graun’s probably most blatant covering up SLabour Project Fearing for yew kay, loyalty of the yoons in their Scotland region I guess-

    “This latest jobs threat on the Clyde could harm the Scottish Conservatives as they attempt to exploit Labour’s weakness and become the main opposition to the SNP in May’s Holyrood elections.

    Sturgeon said: “Workers on the Clyde were given very clear commitments that they would have the contracts to build the Type 26’s and that their jobs would be safe.”

    UKOK Rupert Carrell, of red tory Britnat Graun, who also promised Clyde built RN ships a plenty for this farce union.

  43. It has always been said that newspaper reporters were simply the Labour party with typewriters.

    Going by the press coverage over the threat to the BAE Jobs in Govan and the complete lack of criticism of Labour
    Shows that nothing has changed in that regard.

  44. Marie Clark says:

    Not a lot of sympathy from me about this.

    They were telt that bitter thegither were lying, but they put their ain self interest before our country. Totally selfish bastards. Sorry if that upsets anyone here, but it’s exactly how I feel about it.

    Hell mend them. They ken noo wha wiz leein.

  45. Orri says:

    Lack of empathy or sympathy for No voters is not going to get them to vote for independence. At worst it will further entrench there position. I expect at some point this being twisted into some attack on the refusal of the SNP to completely rule out another referendum in the next Holyrood term. Bear in mind that unless you have absolute knowledge of how every shipyard worker voter voted you don’t know if your I told you is properly addressed.

    That the No campaign was based on fear to begin with is beyond reasonable doubt. What I’d contend is that the Vow was an attempt to counteract the signs that as polls moved towards a Yes result that people eventually tire of fear and inevitably move towards hope. The Vow was a beacon of hope introduced at the last minute as an alternative to the hope offered by independence.

    I suppose it’s possible this is the fault of the near 50% of those who voted in Scotland for the SNP. Perhaps if we’d all been sensible and gone for a Labour government this wouldn’t be happening even if they ended up in opposition. Just as a strong Labour contingent helped save our steel industry.

  46. Clootie says:

    …the NO vote was delivered and the promises evaporate as predicated.

    However it was Better Together who made the promises if we voted NO. The vow became the diluted Smith commission with limits imposed by Labour. The Defence contacts were used by those in the photographs above to sell the NO message

    In summary Labour trusted the Tories, they campaigned with the Tories and they celebrated with the Tories (I remember those scenes vividly from the early hours of the 19th. September 2014).

    Working with the Tories to save their union was more important than our future. A future which will never be secure until we control our country.

    I look at the supply boats in Aberdeen Harbour – built in Norway.
    I look at the patrol requirements a Scottish Navy would need given our vast sea area.
    I look at the total lack of ocean going Navy ships in those Scottish waters at present.
    I look at a nation comprised of island/peninsula communities.
    …and I get angry again at Labours support for a war mongering overlord who, if forced, will promise a few crumbs from the table.

    The arguments against Trident and it’s replacement are sound on many levels and the Baille defence of jobs based on WMD is obscene.
    We need a navy base of practical ships and diesel submarines based on the Clyde. Ships that are built on the Clyde in yards which also compete for supply boats and RORO ferries.

    Never forget that at the most critical time in our future for 300 years Labour acted as the agent of the Tories.

  47. Alison Rollo says:

    Whoops!! And support for ‘Scottish’ Labour just plunges to even lower depths!! Will anyone ever vote for them again?

  48. call me dave says:

    “It would have had to be someone the poor sods trusted who got sent to deliver that message”.

    Indeed they did the tories got labour to do their dirty work, the enemy within.


  49. cctxt says:

    “…the Tories have accepted that Scotland will be Independent sooner rather than later,[and] are in the process of turning the country into a wasteland.”

    Bang on methinks

  50. Mick DIAMOND says:

    Is that cnut reid still at celtic

  51. heedtracker says:

    Orri says,

    Where is this ‘I told you so” stuff what you speak of? The whole UKOK point in today’s mass cover up of another giant SLabour shyste on their Scotland region is just that, watching one of the world’s biggest pack of shame free liars desperately protecting their SLabour yoon chums, again! Just like say BBC vote SLab Scotland are protecting then from their giant PFI fraud on Scotland and their fantastically profitable schools that are now dropping to bits.

  52. donnywho says:

    The idea of Scotland being left as a scorched wasteland, is both truthful and sad. Any successful Scottish business has been brought up, sold and moved south, Scottish & Newcastle, United Distillers, bank of Scotland, Royal Bank of Scotland and many more. This has been an ongoing situation. I have watched it all my life.

    There is one great thing about a scorched earth policy. It leaves the land clear the new growth. There is much there is much that establish industries do, but they tend to not reinvest new equipment and new systems.

    Steel, for instance, is changing, nano structured steel is being produced in the United States by small, innovative companies. This is not possible for large combines unless they write off all their old infrastructure. This is the major cause of inertia for large established businesses. It looks bad on the balance sheet when you trash hundreds of millions of pounds of functional infrastructure. But if you don’t do it, you end up with a dysfunctional industry.

    The point is that what they have done and are doing is leaving us with a clean sheet. And competition from southern neighbours that is archaic.

    How do you think Germany did so well after the war. Everything had to be built from a fresh, new systems, new equipment, new management practices everything.

    This, though it is harsh is the gift that our southern neighbours bequeath as. They will rue the day because unshackled Scotland is everything that 500 years of southern meddling has tried to stop!

  53. Orri says:

    For our immediate use subs might more practibly be replaced by stealth ships such as those seen a few years back. Possibly scaled down scarabs capable of doing duty as maritime patrol and rescue in conjunction with or replacing the Coast Guard. A secure communication link to shore might also see them act as spotters for intrusions they can’t deal with by themselves. Land to ship missiles could ruin anyone’s day.

  54. Kevin Taylor says:

    Red Tories: Shower of Bandits; dirty, lying bandits.

    This country will be independent one day and it’ll be gained from being sick to the back teeth of the lies, broken promises and bullshit from – primarily – British Labour in Scotland. We expect it from Ruth Davidson’s crew, nothing to hide, but for a political party to con the very people it’s supposed to represent is world-class buggery.

    Hey, Unions in Scotland – any clearer about where your £££ is going?

  55. yesindyref2 says:

    It was reported in the Herald yesterday, but the link was kind of hidden for some odd reason.

  56. Fred says:

    The last ime Clyde warship work was sent to Devonport as there were Tory seats at risk, they made a complete arse of the contract and the work was returned to Glasgow,

  57. Ken500 says:

    @ Orri 11.47am


  58. yesindyref2 says:

    The very basic question that has to be asked in the House of Commons is this:

    “Is the 2009 ToBA (Terms of Business Agreement) between the MOD and BaE still in place and existent, or was it negotiated away by BaE in exchange for 3 OPVs being built from the end of 2014?”.

    If it still exists, the jobs should be safe, if it’s gone, then nobody knows, and perhaps BaE is being shafted by Fallon, as well as the workers.

  59. Giesabrek says:

    Folks, when it comes to saying things like “hell mend them” and the like, please keep in mind there will almost certainly be Yes voters amongst those who are about to lose their jobs.

    Saying that, I have little sympathy for those No voters who were told at the time all that has now happened not to trust what Bitter Together were saying.

  60. John Walsh says:

    Scottish Labour the Unions deservedly get the heat for their complicit lies while the “TEFLON TORIES” sit back and chuckle Labour doing Tory dirty work again .Labour ridden like a Scarborough Donkey.

  61. Breeks says:

    There is never any closure here in Scotland. I don’t mean closure in the sense of business, there is more than enough of that kind of closure. I mean closure in the sense of justice; politician elected, politician fails, politician guilty of failure, politician condemned, discredited and dismissed.
    We have a long and less than respectable history of policians selling Scotland down the river, telling us lies, covering over the truth, and yet with our supine poor excuse for political journalism in Scotland, these reptiles are never taken properly to task.
    The damage isn’t just to the people and businesses which fail on their watch, there is a wider consequence where we lose faith in justice, and accept that there will always be one rule for some, and the rest of us will pay for the consequences whether we like it or not.

    We accept there are politicians given an elevated platform to lie to us with impunity. Our courts endorse that impunity. The lying and deception doesn’t stop.
    We accept there is little room in our TV schedules for anything other than Unionist propaganda. We complain to the BBC commissioners. Oooooh! Scary us. The propaganda does not stop.

    I look forward to the day when we grow out of blaming the BBC and whatever or whoever the latest political invertebrate to let us down is, and start doing something to be rid of them. Let every wrong suffered upon Scotland start to carry a consequence, and may Scottish justice have the teeth to stand beside us and see it done.

  62. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s going to be an anxious time for the workers. The delay in building is apparently due to design difficulties, there have been design difficulties throughout, and it’s not unusual for any highly advanced technology project to have similar delays. Better to have a better frigate, than one already osbolete when it gets launched.

    A problem I can see though is that 8 of the Type 23s are fitted with kit destined for the 8 Type 26 – a reason the number being cut from 13 to 8 was no surprise to many – but how long does that kit remain current? Delay another year, two, would it then need a couple more years and a shed load more money to bring the Type 26 up to the latest design to encompass more advanced tech? And so it goes.

    From the RN point of view (Admiral Sir Philip Jones since 8th April) I don’t think that decision to replace 5 Type 26 with 5 OPVs was neccessarily a really bad one, some of the duties being carried out by FFs could just as easily be done by an OPV with a helo deck such as the 3 news ones being built to replace the Class 1s, or the 2 new ones. Horn of Africa, piracy, smuggling comes to mind. It’s a reduction in versatility, but not in current operation capability perhaps. And the cost saving is large.

    But I can’t see past the RN desperately needing the full 8 Type 26 as an absolute bare minimum for fleet escort ships for the 2 carriers – and other duties. In fact it is insufficient for the role the UK sees for its RN.

  63. Robert Graham says:

    firstly “orri” piss off and thats putting it politely.
    GMB we told you did you listen did you f/k , the photos remind me of the ones taken outside the Cumbernauld soon to be closed Tax office same shit different day .
    while the GMB are in the spotlight what about the PCS whose members are enthusiastically pursuing the DWP bordering on the illegal sanctions as viewed by the United Nations .
    On the face of it the Unions not all of them are hand and glove with the Labour party they are the Enemy within. The useless fools being used by the Tories to enable them to strangle the life out of the Scottish Economy and they still can’t see it the Hatred for the SNP has totally blinded them and robbed them of rational thought , in short they are f/n stupid .

  64. ArtyHetty says:

    Those losing their jobs, if this does transpire, should be out with pitchforks. They really were conned, surely they won’t put up and shut up that easily.

    I don’t like responding to it, but does neoconcrap (10.53am) know something we don’t?

  65. r esquierdo says:

    The better together campaign stated at the outset of the referendum debate that no Royal navy warship had been built outside of the U.K. That was lies as both HMS Endurance and HMS Protector had been built overseas. Then they watered it down by saying no warship commissioned had been built outside the U.K. The new RFA vessels are being built in S Korea

  66. Dr Jim says:

    Everybody has sympathy with the shipyard workers on the probable loss of their jobs, but, have none of them ever read a book, have none of them ever had a look at the history of their own country, or is their defence that they’re all stupid

    The Tories of both colours have been lying and using Scotland and it’s people since time began, and yet they say they didn’t see it coming, they were fooled

    I just don’t buy it, they took the English coin that was offered and said Fukc the rest of Scotland at least we’ve got a job today and we’ll whinge about it later when we don’t, do the usual gripe and moan and bear no responsibility for what they did at the time

    Will they still buy a Daily Record on their way to work, will they tell their Union to get stuffed, will they tell their beloved Labour party to get knotted, NO they bloody well probably won’t

    They’ll just cross their fingers, stick their toes in their ears and go La La La please make it all go away and I can keep my job and Fukc everybody else all over again

    So I’m afraid my sympathy doesn’t on this occasion stretch terribly far, it’s time these Labour till I die types get with the program and grow up, Westminster Tory Labour Lib Dem are all the same so get real, Scotland doesn’t even pop up on their radar, they’d rather harm us than help us, if we’ve got it and they need it, it’s gone, and it’s gone down south where they need it , or to some other country that’s cheaper to get it and some bucks can be made

    We’re on our own except without our own money and they still take us for idiots and it’s no bloody wonder when people keep falling for the same shit… FOR…EVER!!

  67. Tackety Beets says:

    “mogabee says:
    23 April, 2016 at 10:27 am
    Pretty sickening all this really.

    How long before it’s all the SNP’s fault”

    Our BTP tweeted last night

    “It’s all the SNP’s fault ,they should’ve won the referendum”

    Our Panda on form again.

  68. Greannach says:

    To be fair to poor Kezia Dugdale, she probably just doesn’t remember.

  69. yesindyref2 says:

    And there’s more now I’ve started on my favourite subject. Note, none of this is from a point of view of Indy or YES.

    The nuclear deterrent was paid for by the Treasury in times of yore, but now there is no air launch facility (became obsolete in the 70s even), the budget for it has been moved to the RN. Now, commentators will say it’s a lod of rubbish that the different arms have to fight for their own budgets, political reality is very different. If it’s cuts, all 3 arms will fight to retain their budgets “we need fighters”, “we need tanks”. In addition you have “security” increasingly fighting for budgets to counter terrorism. And now the nuclear deterrent is part of the RN it’s part of their budget, whatever anyone might tell you.

    But it’s not the RN itself that decides whether to keep the deterrent, just pay for it. In the words of Admiral Stanhope when he was First Sea Lord “we’re running hot”, in other words ships were being reassigned, moved to other duties, crews not being given rest. Once he was succeeded by Zambellas he became quite vocal, though to little effect. Now Zambellas has been succeeded by Jones, he might become very vocal, perhaps he can help GMB and the workers, who knows?

    I’m on the fence regards the need for a nuclear deterrent, but the plain fact of the matter is that the UK just can’t afford it.

  70. breadstreetboy says:

    It’s true that both Labour and Tories made the promises, but it’s only the Tories who now have the power to keep them. So it’s perfectly reasonable for Dugdale to call upon the government to do so.

  71. heedtracker says:

    I suppose the one thing you can legitimately wonder then, is why has this been farted into the yew kay ether now, 2 weeks out from May 5?

    Since the last RN ship launched and headed south to protect us, same yards have been dead. You can see for yourself, silent, no keels been laid, BAe offices empty, boarded up windows, streets empty of cars, nothing. So its probable that the whole work force knew exactly what’s ahead for them mid 2015.

    One of BBC Scotland biggest bullshitters explains it all away

    Douglas Fraser
    Business and Economy Editor

    This isn’t a bad time to exert pressure on the Ministry of Defence over its commitment to building ships on the Clyde. There’s an election on, and a referendum.
    The last referendum featured a lot about the prospects for keeping the yards busy by building complex ships for the Royal Navy. Unions say the pledges made then are not being honoured now.

    A £200m plan to invest in a covered shipyard at Scotstoun – modern and efficient enough to win export orders – has come to a much lesser plan, focussed more on Govan. Shop stewards say there’s little sign of that happening so far.

    The big challenge is to keep the big workforce busy when there’s only one big customer, but with an austerely squeezed budget.
    The aircraft carrier work is winding down, though 250 Clyde workers are now engaged in assembly work at Rosyth in Fife.

    Three Offshore Patrol Vessels are under construction, with two more being ordered. It looks like a plan that has more to do with shipbuilding capacity than the Royal Navy’s needs.
    The Ministry of Defence says it still plans to build eight Type 26 frigates on the Clyde, having committed a lot of money to planning and procurement. The plan until December was for 13. But there is a shift of £750m in the budget, stretching it into more distant, less constrained fiscal years.

    If the start of work is further delayed, and it then ramps up more slowly than planned, the consequences for the workforce look obvious. Hence the lobbying effort to re-instate that money.

    And although the end of the current planning period is ten years away, it’s not too early to be asking if the Clyde yards will be fit for purpose then, without a lot more investment.”

    Fraser’s and his

    “The last referendum featured a lot about the prospects for keeping the yards busy by building complex ships for the Royal Navy.”

    classic BBC Scotland UKOK propaganda.

  72. yesindyref2 says:

    Neocraplordheehaw knows fuck all. He does know how to disrupt, get sympathy, troll for responses, agree to some responses while isolating and insulting those who disagree to cause skelfs, then twist and lead down the garden path. He is very clever at that, a master of the troll art, perhaps the best and most persistent I’ve seen.

  73. CmonIndy says:

    This is the Tories at it again. Delay the contracts knowing that SLAB will take the flak and just before the election. Unionist SLAB votes drift to Con and Con come second. Job done.

  74. G H Graham says:

    That Labour’s north British branch office sold out Scotland’s coal, steel & shipbuilding jobs to save a rotten union on behalf of the Tory party is quite remarkable.

    But selling themselves out in the process, was spectacularly brazen & stupid. Amazing to think back when these same cronies were actually in charge of our country.

    So unless Labour’s accounting unit has some sort of cosmic epiphany, we must never gift them our sovereignty ever again.

  75. K1 says:

    You don’t have to be a genius tae work out that not enough Labour voters voted Yes in Scotland, what industries were targeted relentlessly by the No campaign? One’s where significant numbers of Labour supporters where employed.

    What would be the point of honing in on shipbuilding and appealing to the core Labour support through this? Though you could argue the numbers don’t stack up…just think of the traditional generational aspect and the tactic of scaring the shit out of them works beautifully.

    So spare me the poor workers who voted Yes, they didn’t vote in sufficient numbers.

    The increased engagement through the referendum campaign leading to the GE by many who had formally disengaged from politics in Scotland, is what overturned Labour in their ‘heartlands’. Some of the results though staggering for the SNP in some wards, still had to surge past some pretty big, what in many previous elections would have been a majority vote for Labour.

    Let’s not kid ourselves that we were outdone by the Tories in Scotland during the ref, we were outdone by Labour pressing hard upon ordinary workers too fucking ignorant and brainwashed by decades of lies to get off their arses and vote for what was a better future for their ain folk. They need to wake up and see that the Labour party are zombies, long gone are their socialist credentials and people like Lord Reid and Lord Darling should have signified that glaring anomaly tae most ordinary punters years ago.

    It’s nothing short of shameful how many have been bought off wi a mortgage and a false sense of security sold tae them by greedy conniving bastards in the London Labour party. Sickening.

  76. Ruby says:

    ‘The Ministry of Defence says it still plans to build eight Type 26 frigates on the Clyde’

    What about the reports that they wont be built on the Clyde?

    “Reports that the vessels may not be built in Glasgow at all are deeply troubling. It would be unacceptable for the UK government to renege on its commitment to build these ships on the Clyde.” Nicola Sturgeon The Times

    It would seem shipbuilders in S.Korea are in trouble. Perhaps they have made the UK Gov an offer they can’t refuse.

  77. ScottishPsyche says:

    We are stuck in this paralysis where Slab and the unions as part of Better Together refuse to take any responsibility for their actions.

    The arguments on social media are completely ridiculous regarding this. Daisley accusing people of politicking over jobs. Wtf? Raging Kevin asking that Nicola Sturgeon show, in detail the scenario had we been independent. Really. He wants to rerun the Indyref everyday. Meanwhile we have to deal with the reality of the No vote.

    Also some Slab hopeful who over intellectualised his Yoon devotion by saying they had looked at all the ‘counterfactual scenarios’ in coming to their decision to advise that shipbuilding was BT. Pity he did not envisage a Tory government intent on destroying every major industry to impoverish Scotland even more within his blessed union.

    Ruth Davidson lamenting the LBTT changes as if ever rising house prices and changing your house very 5 minutes are the way to run an economy. Is the London house market her aim for Scotland?

    When will they take responsibility for their decision? I truly believe there is some cognitive problem going on with Yoons where they cannot accept that should circumstances change, a good government adapts.

    Had we won our independence, I have no doubt the SNP, if I government, would have pulled out every stop to secure work short time and had a strategy for the long haul.

    Yoons appear to believe the scenario where oil prices drop means no one has any other plans or options. Well maybe in their rigid, hard of thinking world that is what happens and why the UK government has mismanaged the economy so badly.

  78. yesindyref2 says:

    Like it. Giving the facts pretty well while hiding the finger of blame, or redirecting it at the MOD who everyone criticises for some odd reason.

    Better Together were “economical with the truth”. Well, what a surprise, who knew?

  79. snode1965 says:

    Carjamatic 10.50, totally agree with you. The British Establishment are asset stripping in Scotland.
    The Clyde shipyard has been stripped out, to make way for new plant which would modernise the yard.This would convert the yard into a assembly line akin to a car plant,making it more productive and boost it’s export potential.
    Needless to say the sheds are lying empty….and will never see this investment.
    passport office…gone.
    Hmrc offices…gone.
    Raf bases…gone.
    Air rescue. ..gone.
    that’s yer Union dividend.

  80. Bob Mack says:

    Whilst it is true only the Tories have the power to keep these promises,you have to worry about the gullibility of Labour politicians who put their head on a block voluntarily by stating these guarantees would be met. That belief in your opponents politically ,playing a game to suit you especially the Tories is naive and stupid in the extreme.

    Also ,regarding the Unions. I think that the traditional promoting ofunion candidates for Westminster as Labour representatives is coming to an end as Labour expires.
    Unions want power and influence.They will not get it with Scottish Labour in the forseeable future ,if indeed ever again.

    My own cousin was selected as a Labour candidate through union sponsorship and served in Westminster. To say he was underqualified would be an understatement.

    To say the Union backed and promoted him would be more accurate.They do indeed have great ( if not too much) influence within Labour.

  81. Nana says:

    Being a suspicious wee woman I went digging and found the following

    Old think defence article from 2011

    Then in February

    from the article above

    military effectiveness depends. These partnerships will enable support to ‘Make in India’ and transfer of strategic capability between the two nations

    and of course Willie and Kate have just had a holiday in India.

  82. yesindyref2 says:

    Don’t you know the UK never build complex warships outside the UK?

    Mmm, says the UK, let’s look at the definition of “complex warship”. Is the hull a complex warship? No. Is the propulsion system a complex warship? No it’s just a flaming engine and some screws. Mmmm, what about navigation and communications? Well, yes, and no. There’s a security element and a non-secure element. Mostly it’s computer code that’s secure.

    Mmmm, and what about missiles, they’re secret and part of a complex warship. Yes they are, but the silos aren’t, basically, everyone knows to fire missiles you have to have a silo.

    OK says UK Gov. we build the whole ship outside the UK, call it a sea-worthy hull capable of driving itself back to the UK, and fit out the complex warship bit back in the UK.

    The UK doesn’t build complex warships outside the UK.

    As already, to a large extent, happens. Much fitting happens after launch.

  83. Clootie says:

    As highlighted in several posts…the important core story is that the workers were conned by someone they trusted – Labour.

    All of the various promises of the past would have failed if presented by Tories.

    The only failure by the workers was to trust Labour (again)

    Darling over and over screamed about “the leap into the dark” versus the security of Better Together.
    Brown promised “pooling and sharing” / “broad shoulders of the UK”

    For decades the shipyard numbers dropped. A slow death as Labour promised to protect what remained. However the numbers continued to fall drip, drip, drip.

    Why would a worker not trust “the Party of the People”. They heard the socialist words instead of watching the Tory actions ( …or inaction as the famous ABSTAIN become the key policy)


    Ruthie rides to the rescue and convinces Cameron to deliver the work. Scottish Tory Ruthie gains second place at Holyrood.

    Either manipulation is in line with their Whitehall rule book on manipulation. They all buy more time for the union.

  84. John H. says:

    I used to work in shipbuilding many years ago. I’m sorry to say that whenever rumours of redundancies began, the amount of backstabbing that went on was something to behold. Not everyone was like that of course, but quite a few were.

    Many of these men had never worked anywhere else in their lives, so their chances of getting work elsewhere were slim, and of course they had to think of their families. I would like to think that things have changed now, but I doubt it.

    For the record, many of the men I worked with then were all for Scottish independence.

  85. Francis Mooney says:

    Same KZ quote is now making Radio Clyde news bulletins – with KZ doing the voiceover.

  86. Graham MacQueen says:

    Shock, horror and bags of disbelief….

    Who would ever have thought it, eh?

  87. yesindyref2 says:

    Yeah. There were similar approaches I think in South America where BaE hoped to sell the T36, and Oz or NZ, forget which, NZ I think. Design and build could be shared, similar to the Typhoon Eurofighter where hulls come from Italy to get finished outside Preston.

  88. Bob Mack says:


    Great find Nana, especially as it confirms as early as 2011 the Tories were planning to have the frigates built in India, meaning the referendum promises were just pie in thd sky after all.

  89. Valerie says:

    Any of us active on social media pre referendum, will clearly remember predicting this, and every other lie.

    There was just no telling the Unionists that Labour were full blown patsies/puppets of the Tories. We said there would be a Tory gov’t in 2015, and Scotland would be shat on repeatedly, and in any case, how could they believe Labour, who had no power.

    It brings painful memories to the fore, and I know folk don’t like being told they were wrong, but how do they learn?

    There is no point in wishing for a more truthful politics in Scotland, unless their is some hard talking.

    If folk want to support the Union, fine, but stop trying to sell this shit as good for Scotland.

  90. heedtracker says:

    Just listening to another of our imperial masters on BBC r4 QT roaring away, “look at Noway! independent, free and rich!”

    That’s Nigel Farge. You really cant invent these levels of great British bullshit.

  91. Steve Bowers says:

    Oh come on people, let’s hear it for the Tories, this is fantastically well done.

    They’ve “leaned” on BAE to stop the work in Glasgow and transfer it elsewhere ( votes for them at new site) no one in Glasgow shipyards votes Tory anyway so 800 unhappy families is no skin off their nose.

    They’ve got SLAB to take the blame because we are all jumping over them posting “vote no to save shipyards” kinda stuff.

    The Yoons will now not vote SLAB cos of it and transfer their votes to the Tories.

    Ruth gets to be the opposition relegating SLA to 3rd.
    Cameron gets to go on telly saying “well we must be doing something right, we’ve just come second in Scotland so we’ll carry on screwing everyone over”

    And as a special bonus they’ve made SLA just as toxic as the Tories are.

    It’s a multi Tory WIN/WIN/WIN/WIN/WIN

    it’s a brilliant tactical move cos when we come back at them with a second Indy Ref we won’t get it.


  92. heedtracker says:

    “look at Norway! independent, free and rich!”

    Nigel Farage. 23/4/2016

  93. yesindyref2 says:

    @John H
    I remember during the Ref all those TV outside broadcasts which were mostly the same shop steward and some workers not looking particularly involved. It was obvious some of them were probably YES – and that’s the ones actually in camera shot.

    Even BaE itself was quite equivocal, all it cared about was getting the contract which is quite right of course. I thought I detected the odd pro-Indy sentiment from them. After all in Indy Scotland the chances are the ScotGov would be far more preapred to nurture a shipbuilding industry, and as I used to post, if it joined in NORDEFCO as would be quite likely, could do very well.

  94. K1 says:

    The unions were formed to represent and protect workers against the greed of their employers who would keep them enslaved in poverty to maintain their profit margins.

    What’s changed?

    The unions now represent and protect the employers to ensure the workforce remain enslaved in an ideology of greed is good.

    Now everyone has tae ‘think’ like a spiv tae ‘get ahead’.

    Thatcher’s legacy.

  95. ScottishPsyche says:

    Has anyone from Slab ever acknowledged they were used or duped by the Tories?

    Until they do they are doomed. Only from insight comes change and it seems it is still too painful to accept.

    I watched Sunset Boulevard the other day. Duncan Hothersall really is the Norma Desmond of Scottish politics.

  96. galamcennalath says:

    Haven’t had a chance to read all the comments above. But …

    “we’re not seeing a lot of Tories making promises in there.”

    … the thing is, I don’t really remember the Tories make any promises at all during IndyRef. A few threats here and there, but the promises were made by others.

    All the promises about how amazing UKOKland would be came from LABOUR and other hingers oan in BetterTogether. Labour was the main front and spokesman for the Union and Westminster.

    It was Labour which sold Scotland Cameron’s pig in a poke.

    Now they need to be held to account for their ‘crimes’!

  97. Breeks says:

    You know, I get the feeling these days that we are all missing the big trick here. There have been times when Labour’s dominance was seen as a good thing in Scotland, even though it was still pretty ineffective in protecting our interests. Just as now, we have Labour to blame for things going poorly. Aren’t we getting to the nitty gritty now? Labour are just blotting paper for Scotland. They hold our respect and attention when they are on the up, and they bear our derision when on their knees. They exist to contain us. Whether they are the real thing or just a political placebo to fools us – the real joke is on us because it doesn’t matter a hoot.
    The U.K. sees Scotland as “sandbox” politics. Whether there is a storm of acrimony at one election, or a landslide of common voice, it doesn’t really matter. All of it happens in the Scotland sandbox and doesn’t really affect the rest of us.
    You think they are worried about an SNP juggernaut? Hardly. They scold you like children for clapping your hands. At best we have annoyed them, but there is absolutely no chance you’ll be given the keys to the gun room.

    You know the real questions on the lips of Westminster? Why is this generation of jocks not falling for the same pish which kept the other generations of jocks quiet and kept in their place? These Britnats don’t even give a shit about the Union. They seethe with such contempt for us that they don’t believe we will ever manage to set aside our bickering and start acting like a Nation. They don’t even know the extent to which Scotland is routinely abused. Whyever would they, when it matters so little to them?

    Nothing is going to change while we let others make our decisions. Be that broadcasting, nuclear weapons, Europe, whatever… It really is that simple.

  98. Dcanmore says:

    Since 2007 BAE Systems have put massive investment into their Australian yards turning them into state-of-the-art global ship builders. Recently they’ve completed two large ski-jump carriers for the Australian Navy. The Tories announced that they are seeking a partnership with Australia to provide their navy with a version of the T26 frigate.

    What I can see is maybe two or three pattern-ships being built on the Clyde then the bulk of the RN and Australian orders moving Down Under. Worth noting that the Royal Navy’s new supply ships are being constructed in South Korea.

    The Tories also want a smaller cheaper corvette/light frigate, possibly based on the current River-Class patrol vessel. These uncomplicated designs can be built in English yards such Vosper Thorneycroft Southampton and BAE Systems Portsmouth. If anything, what the British Government give themselves is options, and one of those options is to abandon ship building on the Clyde altogether.

    The chippy Jocks don’t vote Tory, so why appease them. Labour are up to their necks in this and if Clyde ship-building goes, then Labour have no chance of recovery in Scotland for decades and that will suit the Tories as long as Scotland is kept within the union. It remains to be seen whether NO voters will keep their heads in the sand.

  99. Tinto Chiel says:

    Infuriating and disgusting to see all those Slab photo-pops and litany of lies all over again. Reid encapsulates all their hypocrisy, greed and bullying behaviour: the Gramsci-spouting, Irish rebel-songster who ditched all his principles to become minister of defence and then take his ermine super pronto after serving in Blair’s criminal cabinet.

    I have a season ticket for a provincial club and my seat is in front of the visiting directors’ box. Imagine having to be in the vicinity of Reid and Brian Wilson twice a season and trying to keep your temper and your scotch pie down.

    As for their desperate rewriting of history, Winston Smith would need a tanker of Victory Gin in an effort to keep up with their shameless mendacity.

    How can 20% of those polled still be thinking of voting for them? Does not compute.

  100. heedtracker says:

    Future Lord Tomkins, Better Together Slovenia branch, is completely silent on latest UKOK renege on his Scotland region.

    Might pop along and ask him, out on Sauchiehall Street hustings. And ask how Aliesalba’s doing ofcourse.

  101. Phronesis says:

    This sad state of the ship building industry in Scotland should not be viewed in isolation – another episode in a long litany of WM disregard for Scotland. Any political party that remains tied to the UKOK mantra must tacitly support the destruction of Scotland’s industrial heritage and infrastructure ( irrespective of the tweets to suggest otherwise) and know that they are engaged in a deception on a grand scale.

    We will only move forward with collaborative capitalism and a government that can buy social justice and can construct policies that compose a new economic and social configuration in a truly independent Scotland .There is now a mass of evidence of the failure of the neoliberal culture and trickle down economics championed by the Tories and New Labour – let’s not vote for more of the same.

  102. yesindyref2 says:

    Looking ahead again to the glorious prospect of Independent Scotland say in 2022, so what’s the defence political situation? In 2012 at its autumn conference, the SNP voted after a very noisy democratic debate, 52% to 48% in favour of changing policy to be a full member of NATO rather than a Partner for Peace which was the previous policy, other PfPs being Ireland and Russia. I thought that not just wise, but essential.

    Then during the Ref we have Robertson ex secretary-general, a person who matters nothing these days, saying we’d have to join the back of the queue for new membership of NATO. But then the previous NATO SG said the same thing and lo and behold, the then current one did the same. Now that really pissed me off, because it’s unrealistic and sheerly stupid. NATO without Scotland has a big f’ing hole in its sea defences, the Iceland gap.

    So what of NATO? Well, it’s shifting its focus via the Yanks to the Pacific and China Sea, China and South Korea, with a hesitant mention for Japan which supposedly wants to develop its own nukes. Doing that it’s courting Oz and NZ. So what of the North Atlantic where we are?

    Well indeed, what of us? The UK will quite likely trot along in the footsteps of its bestest friend and specail relationship but only if we stay in the EU, USA.

    Independent Scotland doesn’t need to do that. During the ref I think it was Salmond talked to NORDEFCO, which was basically a co-operation in defence building. But from my latest look seems to be moving to be an actual defence co-operation. Into which Scotland would fit like a glove.

    So you could have the possibility of Scotland in NORDEFCO, the rUK in NATO, and a special relationship between the rUK and Scotland – after all, we are very close geographically and share a land border, and need to overlap both air and maritime space, at need in defence.

    That seems to me to be an interesting scenario, and I think quite an exciting one.

  103. yesindyref2 says:

    Totally endorse your posting in all aspects. I tried to avoid the ruk v iScotland aspects of shipbuilding in my postings, but you did it instead, thanks I think 🙂

  104. Orri says:

    Did I say I supported either Labour or Union leaders? I don’t think so. Their being made redundant wouldn’t bother me one bit. I remember there being several complaints against unions and the Labour party itself for either not consulting it’s membership or deliberately doing so at a UK level when coming out for No.

    What I’m saying is that I can sympathise with someone who voted No based on a promise of continued employment and who might have a family depending on them. Not enough to vote No myself mind you.

    The particular post that prompted my outburst was by someone who went on about how these people, all 800 perhaps but Ruth will know, voted for their own self interest whilst claiming to have sympathy for those on food banks himself. Think about it for a second being on the dole or too poor to afford to feed yourself is a terrible thing but hell mend you if you try to avoid that fate.

    The fact that the particular poster goes by a name that aludes to one that may be translated as “Hound of Ulster” and sometimes has the title “of the Red Hand” might be a simple coincidence. Might be worth reminding ourselves that celts, which most Britons are apparently, can be some of the most stubborn people in the world. We don’t know how they voted but schadenfreude at their expense might mean they’ll never vote for independence the next time and there will be a next time.

  105. Iain More says:

    Well today I am right off Buffalo. Since No voters also impersonate ostriches I am also off ostrich.


    Well I heard that PS have been called into North Lanark Council to investigate the claims of corruption, not how the Burd Show reported it yesterday.

    Now back on topic sort of. How long before one of the Brit Nats claims that leaving the EU will destroy all shipbuilding in Scotland and lay waste to everything else? How long before the Brit Nats in favour of staying in EU will also paint the same scenario of apocalyptic devastation.

    I note Farage has had a major irony bypass.

    On topic

    The utter destruction of the Labour Party in Scotland I think is a prerequisite before the next Indy Referendum. SLAB will always do the Tory bidding and they will be the first ones over the top when the Tories give the order to fix bayonets and charge. It is a pity that the ones that survive the suicidal electoral slaughter will always be rewarded with coats deid stoat and £300 a day plus for their treachery to Scotland and its people.

  106. Marcia says:

    We knew it would end in tears. All the false promises. The Wee Black Book needs to be circulated far and wide.

  107. Luigi says:

    breadstreetboy says:

    23 April, 2016 at 12:55 pm

    It’s true that both Labour and Tories made the promises, but it’s only the Tories who now have the power to keep them. So it’s perfectly reasonable for Dugdale to call upon the government to do so.

    No, the red tories don’t slither off the hook that easily. During the indy ref, every BT promise, every BT threat that the tories made, EVERY single one of them, was backed to the hilt by Labour. This was crucial, because no one in Scotland believed the tories, but a critical number of people still trusted Labour. In a sense, the tories were the con men, Labour acted as guarantors. So many promises have been broken and now the guarantors are held to account by the electorate and they will continue to be held to account until Scotland is independent. The future for the Labour party in Scotland is bleak.

    Speaking of guarantors, where is Gordon Brown? He has been awfully quiet of late. Back in McCavity mode, I suppose. 🙁

  108. heedtracker says:

    Vote NO Bettertogether BBC attack propaganda in its Scotland region classic news broadcast.

    Sorry WoS but its still worth watching how hard the BBC and SLab lied at us, with 2 days to go and their historic The Vow fraud doing its thang too.

  109. heedtracker says:

    If you let the SLab Lord nutcase do his thing, the follow through BBC report on YES is even more aggressive.

  110. heedtracker says:

    So next BBC news thing up there and its what we have to call BBC news, SLab Lord, unelected UKOK law maker for life explains to us “if you don’t know, don’t vote.” BBC attack propaganda piles in to “clarify.”

  111. galamcennalath says:

    Evening Times

    Ms Dugdale refused to take the blame and replied: “Much to my deep regret, Labour didn’t win the general election. What say you @Ruth_E_Davidson ?”

    IndyRef was not won by Tories, nor by Labour … it was won by them working together on a common platform. Promises made were not party based, they were on behalf of WM, the Union, and any near future UK government regardless of party.

    They cannot rewrite history now. They were in it together. They cannot claim promises made by Labour representatives of BetterTogether, need not be kept by the Tories!

    There were not two futures proposed by BT, a Labour and a Tory one, there was only one set of proposals for the Union put to the Scottish people.

    The stood together, now they need to fall together.

  112. One_Scot says:

    So basically, everything that ‘Better Together’ warned would happen if Scotland voted ‘Yes’, has now happened after they frightened Scotland into voting ‘No’.

    Yoons lying to and taking the piss out of Scotland, who’d have thought.

    Thanks Yoons, you’re the best.

  113. yesindyref2 says:

    “Last Post” before I get down to work.

    Thinking this through from the UK Gov point of view, the Ref was a shock to us. Much of our revenue comes through Scotland, and they can use that in negotiations as that fishy Salmon already threatened to do. If we don’t get our Revenue we might have to go cap in hand to the IMF. Again. OK, let’s move the HMRC functions to Croydon, leaving Scotland with a Branch Office. Like the Labour and Conservative parties themselves.

    But what about our nukes? Milford Haven, a brownfield site? Mmm. Devonport? Not big enough, but not just that there’s Coulport which is massive, nowhere to put that. Or is there? With NNPT there’s no need for such a big site, we’ve cut the warheads drastically, Glen Douglas without WE 177 nuclear bombs, no need with a bit of work.

    Let’s look at the google maps. Mmm, here’s a relatively uninhabited bit big enough (I did this in 2013 or 2014). A CPO, nominal public enquiry (who cares it’s national security), there you go, that’s a Coulport. But … Devonport itself isn’t big enough for 4 SSBNs and 7 SSNs, it would need redevelopment, and we can’t do that with the SSNs in place.

    Mmm, I know, we’ll move the SSNs – Astute and Trafalgar – to Faslane for a few years and convince the thick Jocks and that gullible GMB Union we’re doing them a favour with jobs jobs jobs. That Bailey has a big mouth to help us. But only for 8-10 years, then we’re ready for them going off Indy, can move the whole shebang back to Devonport with just 2 years work. Bye bye and good riddance to troublemakers.

  114. Davy says:

    I do feel sorry for anyone at risk of losing their job, but the people who were promoting voting NO and those who actually voted NO from the shipyards, well the saying “turkeys voting for Christmas” comes to mind.

    What does it take for people in Scotland to understand the red, blue and yellow tory parties do not give a flying fuck about our country.

    They are only interested in the money and power they can get out of our nation to fill their own pockets and the pockets of their partys, and to that ends they will promise you ANYTHING.

    For those of you who voted NO, fucking grow up.

    SNP X 2

  115. bugsbunny says:

    I wonder how many of those smug bastards with their red and yellow NO banners feel so smug this morning?

    Hell mend them.


  116. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh by the way, if you see news in the not distant future of some major development at RAF Boulmer or RAF Leeming, or somewhere on the North of England East coast, well, that’s QRA North being taken care of.

  117. Orri says:

    Barrow in Furness is where they’ll probably base the Trident replacement. Saves having to redevelop the current facilities at Faslane and keeps it as far away from London as possible. Think they do work on the reactors there already.

  118. Proud Cybernat says:



    The British State/Establishment will have to remove the velvet glove in its dealings with Scotland for many of us to really SEE what they are doing to this country; to our people.

    But they are clever. Very clever. That velvet glove masking their iron fist will remain. We need to find a means of getting their iron fist exposed; to allow ALL the people of this country to see their true, ugly face. We need to provoke them into showing their iron fist – especially to those who don;’t even know it’s there. Only when the velvet glove is removed and the threat of the iron fist observed will sufficient numbers turn to Indy.

    It seems, though, that the Bristish Establishment might have learned from history afterall. It was the iron fist treatment in Ireland that eventually turned many in Ireland against London rule.

    Maybe they have learned? Maybe.


  119. yesindyref2 says:

    Possibly, but there is the problem of a narrow passage and somewhere to marry warhead to missile for a total of 55 tons using the floating dock.

    I totally agree with you by the way about not slagging off the workers. Apart from many probably voting YES anyway, it’s their jobs and families at stake. They’re future YES voters, as are their families, neighbours, communities. And we need their YES vote.

  120. yesindyref2 says:

    Plus the town of Barrow itself is too near. It’s likely Faslane wouldn’t pass current H&S standards.

  121. davidb says:

    Perhaps we are better without things the Colonial Government has ultimate control over. If we are dependent on anything they ultimately hold the purse strings on, they will manipulate it to suit themselves and not us.

    The great sadness is that if those skills are lost, then we will not be able to build ships again. We used to build locomotives for the world. We used to build ships. And now foreign companies build bridges for us. We who bridged the Empire.

    We really need to look to our own future now. The Colonialists are preparing for theirs. A future without us. Please keep up the momentum and let us escape from their orbit. Expect duplicity. It is in their nature. But remember, we are only a few years from being independent again. After that we are masters of our own destiny.

  122. Iain More says:

    Well we have all seen with interest how the Brit Nat Press and Media reacts to job losses in Scotland – with glee and gloating followed up with a heavy dollop of Scotland too wee and too poor etc and aren’t you glad to have voted No Scotland so that UKOKs broad shoulders can sustain you in your unemployment or replacement jobs that pay less.

    There is an almost daily sneer and gloat by the Blue, Fiberal and Red Tories about the price of oil and the jobs that continue to be lost. Despite all the supposed economic woes of the North east property prices in Aberdeen continue to rise apparently, something doesn’t add up. Well we know SLABs arithmetic doesn’t that is for sure.

  123. chris kilby says:

    Bastards. Lying fucking bastards. Labour did the Tories’ dirty work for them under the Better Together banner.

    “Ship workers campaigned very hard to remain part of the UK. We have been lied to… We have been let down. We have been betrayed. We have been deceived.”

    (Gary Cook – GMB)

    While Gary Smith, GMB Scotland secretary, has called this a “total betrayal.” And we all know who the ("Tractor" - Ed)s are!

    Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?

  124. schrodingers cat says:

    i also think this is a planned and coordinated attack on scotlands economy by WM while the unionist here blame the snp. at least thatcher thought she was doing the right thing for the economy, cameron has no pretence

    the move from 50-60% support for indy maybe slow, i hope this happens so we can get out of this union before cameron trashes scotland

  125. galamcennalath says:

    Davy says:

    For those of you who voted NO, fucking grow up.

    That is the kind of sentiment I can so often sympathise with!

    The hardcore BritNats I understand. I disagree with them, but their London centric Anglicised world is their choice.

    The gullible idiots who believed the rubbish they were told, I hold a big grudge against. I consider them fools who didn’t go to the trouble of looking more closely at a situation which would effect their, and everyone else’s, future.

    That said, it is some of those same people who are going to be YES voters next time. We need a deep intake of breath and approach them with our positive message. Our role has to be information, education, persuasion, and make sure they don’t all make the same mistake twice!

  126. bugsbunny says:

    I see Brexit folks are now experiencing Project Fear like we did from the interfering President Obama. Watch out. it’ll be the Chinese President next, followed by the Pope, various European Politicians, Hillary Clinton, Madeleine Albright and various celebrities, but this time round no David Bowie or Ronnie Corbett. Although I think their safe from the purring Queen.

    What goes around, comes around. Fuck ’em.


  127. Dr Jim says:

    All we did by voting NO was give them time to get us stripped easier
    This is not the end of it, they’re only about halfway through ripping the guts out of Scotland
    Bribes to Fish companies to move south,Renewables buggered, Chinese steel, Shipbuilding, you name it it’s disappearing fast

    They’ll be offering the Tech industries cash incentives to move, Financial services, all because England’s in poor economic condition whether they’re in the EU or not

    Scotland’s being royally done over and the outlook is grim

    But they’ll still find a way to blame this on the SNP probably by saying if we’d never had a referendum there would have been no uncertainty in the markets so it’s definitely the SNP to blame for rabble rousing

    If we behave ourselves and do as we’re told by voting in some Yoon politicians again they’ll maybe make us another vow to fix our country if the SNP just give up

    I’ll put my house on Yoons still arguing to stay in the UK

    Kezia will make no apology for that (she likes using that phrase)
    Ooops is that Gordoz I can hear coming, Clunk thud

  128. galamcennalath says:

    The GMB’s official line of ‘boo hoo hoo, they lied to us’ just doesn’t seem plausible.

    IMO it is much more likely that GMB officials completely understood what was going on pre-referendum. Like their brothers in Labour (Scotland branch) they put their allegiance to London and the Union before the interests of their members and Scotland.

    Now it is those members who put their trust in their trade union who will be paying the price.

    For IndyRef2, not only do we need to see 60% of voters wanting Indy, we also need to see other organisations … Trade unions, professional bodies, charities, churches, a whole cross section of what makes up Scotland, need to get off the fence and say enough is enough, the Union is bust and we believe it’s time to out of it.

    In particular, Scottish trade unions need to start asking themselves whose tune do they dance to? The answer should be their members.

  129. Richardinho says:

    Oh dear Stu, look like you’ve got them bang tae rights!

  130. yesindyref2 says:

    We’ve spent years and years looking at what’s going on, examining the news and how it’s portrayed, the bias, the indoctrination, the outright lies. And that’s because we support Independence, have for a long time, and perhaps some of us became that way because we started questioning the news and the propoganda.

    For most it’s new, didn’t really start until maybe 2014, maybe even the second half of 2014. For most Indy and a referendum I remember from a poll was about 10th in a list of priorities of only about 20. It just wasn’t important, and most didn’t realise how important it could be. At least from Indy ref 1 most poeple now realise how important it is to Scotland, and the NO campaign was just as successful in that as the YES campaign.

    Independence matters to Scotland, whichever side you’re on.

    It’s a slow process and the NOes aren’t stupid, they’re not cowards, they’re not ("Tractor" - Ed)s, their priorities were and often still are, not Independence or even thinking about it.

    It’s jobs, kids, family, roof over head, meals, for the lucky ones hoidays, new car in 3 years, sofa’s looking a bit faded. But Independence or not is now a major factor.

    It’sll take time and for many, not until they’re affected or their kids, family, neighbours, community. And not only affected, but directly obviously due to policies from Westminster.

    As Macart says, it’s the tipping point, and once we reach that it will accelerate as more and more people realise. And it’s not us obvious Indy fanatics will win Indy Ref 2, it’s Indy Ref 1’s NO voters who wake up and smell the coffee.

  131. Iain More says:


    ” Although I think their safe from the purring Queen.”

    I wouldn’t bet on it as the Royals through their uhmm “farming” Estates are recipients of EU Subsidies. I am not sure of the actual figure but they have probably raked in millions in subsidies over the decades from the EU. Unless of course Bojo and the Brexit Brigade have promised them that they would replace what those parasites would lose if UKOK left the EU.

  132. Papadox says:

    The ESTABLISHMENT controls and rules UK via WESTMINSTER House of Lords & commons. Conservatives, Labour & Libdems are all beholden to the ESTABLISHMENT. They are all given favours grace honours and cash as reward for their loyalty and efforts on behalf of the ESTABLISHMENTS members. The minority of “principled” members of Westminster are suffered to give the appearance of democracy however there isn’t enough of them to upset the smooth running of the gravy train. HMQ is the figurehead and ties all the different pieces of the con together.

    Wonder why the SLAB grunts are so enthusiastic about better together UKOK.

  133. wee e says:

    Well, here’s Ruth’s opportunity to practise Holding Gvernment To Account.

  134. Iain More says:

    On Topic in part.

    I have just seen the election mail that my sister has received from USDAW. I can only describe it as disgusting. When are some of the TUs like USDAW going to get rid of their treacherous leaders. Some of them are as guilty as SLAB in being electoral fodder and mouthpieces for the Tories and the British Establishment.

  135. Valerie says:


    I’m reading your posts about Faslane with interest, because one of the things that I found interesting, was the mandarins wanted to at least try and plan for moving it, and we know they were forbidden.

    If the subs Vanguard and Vengeance are in and out of Devonport, and I think one has had a refit? there, is that a likely home for them, or is it tied into having space for warheads storage as well?

    Just curious if there is a new home going to be readied for them.

  136. Andrew Mclean says:

    Had I not read wings for nearly two years I would have been absolutely disgusted and appalled at the actions, the lies, the betrayal of the working man who for generations voted labour.

    My paternal grandfather was involved in setting up the international Labour Party, I remember him telling me of WW1 of the stupidity of the officers, of bravery and cowards, and evel men who he lived with in the trenches. Of the hopes of his generation and the words of Hardie and McLean, of the new world, for the betterment of man.

    I don’t remember him ever swearing, I wish he were not dead, but am glad he never lived to see fucking bastads like Reid, Brown, Blair, and the rest of the reprobates stinking in ermine, fucking our country as hard as they can for everything that the can get for themselves.


  137. yesindyref2 says:

    Here’s one interesting publication:

    Chalmers is very much the Unionist, can’t be done, Scotland won’t be able to ahve a good defence, a good defence guy but blinkered. Tusa is almost “our” guy, can be done, won’t cost much, here’s how. Ultimately Hammond conceded effectively that 10 years wasn’t unreasonable.

    Near certainty there was an actual thinktank with some outline plans already drawn up, perhaps even underway who knows. Devonport is the base for the SSNs at the moment, and can be again. Chalmers has problems with Devonport being too small for safety margins for a Coulport lookalike, well, there’s some space to the east, but a good promontory to the west with just a guest house and wildlife sanctuary. Plenty access roads already as I think it was a 2WW base. Environmentalists would protest but some sop could be found for them.

    Road access to Aldermaston / Burghfield a lot better than down from Faslane! Potential to build a special road / tunnel on to Exmoor, but I don’t think that’s neccessary.

    I think it’s why they ruled out Devonport so early on because of modern safety standards, because it was the best option, better than Milford Haven. Bluff and bluster.

  138. Valerie says:


    Thank you for that. Link looks fascinating, as well as associated links!

  139. bugsbunny says:

    Iain More,

    That’s it to a tee. Replace their losses and more. I do predict an English backlash. Twitter is in meltdown. They are already saying that the leave campaign has got a boost from Obama’s speech, much like the SNP got a boost following a NO victory. Folks are saying, “He said this on ST George’s Day and the 400th Anniversary of our Bard’s death”…blah blah blah, (Although I thought he said this last night?”).

    Anyway I think he’s provoked a sleeping giant. He’s giving the brexit folk a kick up the arse that might give them the support they need. Ultimately it is the voters who will decide this one, not the door chappers and politicians. They say the Scots are nationalistic and not the English. I think Obama might just prove this wrong? Anyway we want a Brexit to provoke a second independence referendum. And the Queen can stick her nose in all she wants. A Generation of Forelock Tuggers will have passed by then, and a new generation of patriots will replace them. Bye bye Union. So long and thanks for the fish, as the Giant Blue Whale from Hitch Hiker’s guide to the Galaxy said as he pummeled to Earth to his death. The vote NO brigade is the whale and we are the earth. The earth wins 1 – 0 to the splattered whale.

    I think after the Queen it’ll be Charles III and last.

    I predict we will have to get it worse before we move on. So I think, unfortunately we may need to go beyond May, by winning a majority then and beyond a Brexit, (whenever that happens…not the vote, the event), beyond even the Council Elections, and we may well have to repeat this again, by fighting as we did in 2015, again in 2020 Westminster and again in 2021 for the Scottish Elections, yet again, before the Scottish Government get around to negotiating another Edinburgh agreement to get permission for another vote on a Referendum. It sounds so pessimistic and submissive, but as they are not putting in a cast iron guarantee of an Independence Referendum this time round, unlike 2011, we may have scuppered it until 2021 and we may have to fight another Westminster Election, another Scottish General Election and another Scottish Local Election before we have a vote on Independence. Maybe May 2023? God I hope I’m wrong on this one. But Nicola should have stated in her manifesto, that an SNP majority is all she needs for another Referendum. Perhaps the Scottish back needs more of the English whip? I wonder what will give up first, the strain on the Westminster arm from all the whipping, or the skin and blood from the Scottish back from all the lashes. Maybe some of the soft no’s are now beginning to feel the lash. And, Oh, how it stings. Wait until the salt is rubbed in, followed by the vinager. The screams will raise the dead. Maybe that what is needed, after all?

    Stephen Roney.

  140. Robert Graham says:

    My sincer heart rendering apologies to the Labour Party canviser who stopped by recently , I inadvertently gave him the impression I supported his party and would be more than happy to save him time by distributing his leaflets . Oops I lied they went in the recycling bin, am I a bad person ?.

    Well they started it .

  141. Gary45% says:

    This is one of the many reasons the Red Torries are disappearing up their own back cavity.

    I think I am right in saying, when the Trident contract came up in the eighties, Rosyth had the infrastructure and the correct financing in place for the submarine contract.
    It went to Devonport, where they wasted billions on new infrastructure and basically shafted Scotland to keep the English voters happy.(Please correct me if I am wrong)
    RED TORRIES exactly the same as Blue Torries.

  142. shug says:

    I will not be joining and campaign to save jobs. They followed the labour party and their union so welcome to the world
    They got what they voted for

  143. Taranaich says:

    I think it’s well worth remembering that while the Other Party wrings its hands plaintively and impotently as the UK government betrays shipyard workers for the umpteenth time, the Scottish government actually *did* something about it:

    The media were perfectly happy to pre-emptively dig Ferguson’s grave upon the announcement it went into administration, lamenting the loss of the Last Shipbuilders in Inverclyde, off to join Scott and Lithgowe and all the rest in history, a poignant end to an inevitable demise.

    The SNP said “tae feck wi’ THAT!”, rolled up its sleeves, and got Ferguson’s back on its feet. It is now working on multi-million contracts with a much expanded workforce, with plans to expand further.

    THAT’S what Scotstoun and Govan need, not tearful petitions from powerless MSPs and squeaks of outrage from the sole Scottish MP of the supposed Party of the People – action, swift and decisive, which rejects the defeatism of both UK government parties in the interests of the people of Scotland.

  144. Taranaich says:

    @Breeks: You think they are worried about an SNP juggernaut? Hardly. They scold you like children for clapping your hands. At best we have annoyed them, but there is absolutely no chance you’ll be given the keys to the gun room.

    And yet when the SNP suggested they *might* vote against repealing the Fox Hunting ban, the Tories dropped the proposals, too cowardly to even face the possibility of being outvoted as a majority government. And again with the Human Rights Act. And again over plans to redefine “poverty.” They showed some foresight, as they found themselves defeated over the plan to extend Sunday trading hours.

    We have indeed annoyed them, but considering their party is tearing itself to bits over Europe, I think they’re more than a bit worried too. The average Tory MP, walking into a safe seat after being raised to a life in politics, may well be stupid enough not to care. But the strategists, the people playing the game – they can see the danger a Scotland almost completely unified under the SNP poses to them.

  145. Fred says:

    Lumping 800 shipbuilders as No voters is a nonsense. Glasgow voted Yes, the spirit of Jimmy Reid isn’t dead in the yards!

  146. Fred says:

    Dismissing 800 shipbuilders as No voters is a nonsense, Jimmy Reid’s spirit is not gone from the yards. Glasgow voted Yes!

  147. annie says:

    Can’t remember the name of the now ex Scottish Labour MP who stood up in the HoC and said he didn’t care if Scotland would be better off independent, he would still vote No.

  148. yesindyref2 says:

    Yeah. Strangely enough the media didn’t cover those detail and witness parts of the Scottish Affairs Committee actual hearings, just the shortened summary report which missed out some witnesses for some reason, and then the press release “Scotland’s screwed”.

    I did post chunks in the Herald below the line, strangely never picked up by the columnists, not even in the SH.

    I presume Angus Robertson knew a lot of this stuff, the Unionists liked to portray him as ignorant stupid nationalist, but from the parliamentary questions he asked he firstly knew enough to ask intelligent questions, and then was better informed after answers. Added to him being Privy Council as well.

  149. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry, Angus Robertson Privy Council after GE 2015, but Salmond was on it before since 2007, as FM, as is Sturgeon.

  150. yesindyref2 says:

    I was talking to someone on Referendum Day in a bar for about a half-hour. He was Vangaurd crew and was a YES. And I did check his knowledge to see if he was faking it. He believed in the deterrent, and was still a YES.

  151. annie says:

    Perhaps Prof Tompkins wont be quite so certain of his List seat after this, the idea of anyone voting Tory in Scotland now is beyond the pale, particularly in Glasgow.

  152. Andrew Mclean says:


    The whale said “what’s that big thing coming towards me” as he fell trough space ” I hope we can be friends”

    It was the Dolphins who said “goodbye and that’s for all the fish” once the earth was scheduled to be demolished to make way for a new hyperspace bypass.


  153. Nana says:


    That would be ignorant buffoon Jimmy Hood

  154. annie says:

    Perhaps Ruth Davidson knew something of this when she moved her constituency choice from Glasgow to Edinburgh.

  155. Tam Jardine says:


    You make a good point. If there had been a yes vote the promises and projections and the future portrayed by the yes campaign and it’s leaders should have been forensically examined.

    Criticisms would have been made and to an extent we yes voters, and in particular the leaders of the yes campaign would have borne the responsibility for how successful it all turned out.

    The vote was no so instead the attention should quite reasonably and rationally be on the proponents of the no campaign (and their voters). Darling, Cameron, Brown and all their spokespeople, media shills and footsoldiers should be held to account for how THEIR proposition turned out for us.

    Except shit-for-brains like Hague still think the Yes campaign needs held to account.

    You won- – you are responsible.

    Only in the crazy UK could the losing side in a referendum be then subject to more scrutiny than the winning side.

    The sad truth is we can rant and rave on here about the labour branch office making promises. The truth is that these weren’t promises in the true sense of the word. They were never solemn pledges made by honourable folk. Guys like John Reid and Gordon Brown were simply coming out with anything, everything they could think of to achieve a no vote.

    The vow was the same- spun by the media to be some massive offer. English people probably still think we got something out of the vow- crazy to think of.

    How could John Reid promise anything… and yet he did. They all did.

    It breaks my heart thinking what a missed opportunity we had and how much time will be wasted before we can put this right.

    As for Kezia- what do we expect her to say? Sorry we lied to you? We sold you down the river? We should never have made the outrageous claims we did? Of course not- we get this false concern, the serious tone and the media can spin it as Kezia fighting for the shipbuilding jobs.

    Anyway- if only I had had 500,000 votes we might be in a very different situation.

  156. Orri says:

    The fox ban repeal was going to lose whether the SNP voted or not. The dropping it was to avoid the embarrassment whilst providing an excuse for EVEL. Given all their complaints about how Scotland is a one party state on a slender majority you’d wonder at why the same isn’t true in Westminster. Is it because Cameron knows he can’t relly on his own back bench?

  157. bugsbunny says:


    I bow to your superior knowledge as I was a wee boy when I watched it first time round and the subtle nuances were probably beyond my ken at that time? I’ve read the book since but have yet to re watch the show. and it’s 25 years since I read the book.


  158. Breeks says:

    This is beyond parody.

    I’m looking forward to the next referendum and Better Together, (or whatever shabby form it adopts after its unmteenth dud relaunch), tries to tell us anything about anything.

    I reckon a lot of people won’t even want to listen to them, never mind believe them. It’s such a pity that Scotland has to become an economic wasteland before some people open their eyes.

    You’d like to think that some Labour politician, or even a BBC mouthpiece might see this, and really see this for the first time, and think hang on… What the feck is happening here? What is it that I actually stand for? I am being used as a pawn in a vicious and dishonest game which sees me shoring up one lie after another and destroys my country piece by piece. How did it ever come to this?

    Maybe, just maybe, they wouldn’t be facing political extermination next month. Aye. Vote No and see what you get. A mad scramble for scraps of ermine and a front door you’re scared to step outside. Not much of a reward for selling out your country.

  159. JLT says:

    Not a good week for those Unionists who got politically involved in the Referendum. With oil production now in operation West of the Shetlands; the threat of being dragged out of the EU and now the reneging on promises of the defence contracts, it really shows how hollow the whole Better Together mantra really was.

  160. Bill says:


    I served on Vanguard first commission, wonder who you met?

  161. Clootie says:

    annie says:
    23 April, 2016 at 6:00 pm
    Perhaps Ruth Davidson knew something of this when she moved her constituency choice from Glasgow to Edinburgh.

    Probably an educated guess as to the Tory plan an Glasgows future. However you could be onto something! 🙂

  162. Big Jock says:

    Hell mend those fecking unions who trusted London over Edinburgh. They should apologise for intimidating and lying to their workers. Fecking Labour have no shame. How can you guarantee jobs when you are not in government. Lying bustard. I hope Slabour disappear up their own arses.

  163. Tam Jardine says:

    BTW can I propose something I call the “Lord Tomkins Clause” whereby Scotland immediately declares UDI if Adam Tomkins is ‘elevated’ to the house of Lords. No messing about- the same day we all converge on Holyrood.

    I’ll draw something up myself. I’m sure I’ve got some guid paper somewhere.

  164. Nana says:

    Army commandos from Arbroath are set to move down south following a Ministry of Defence restructuring review.

  165. Alan McHarg says:

    I sent an email along with this link to the labour party in Scotland asking if they remember standing shoulder to shoulder with the tories threatening the people of Scotland with project fear telling them that jobs in Scotland were only secure within the disunited kingdom, especially shipbuilding jobs! I also asked what they plan to do now?

    I’m still waiting on a reply…the silence is deafening!!!

  166. yesindyref2 says:

    That was me not Fred. It was a Vangaurd class not neccessarily Vanguard herself. Mennies but not a regular, possibly not even from Dundee. Maybe it was you!

  167. Nana says:

    yesindyref2 read this about a Canadian firm getting work this month

  168. Croompenstein says:

    It’s no just ships that need to get in the sea it’s the whole better together slaberite shite and especially big fat Bliar Get-In-The-Fucking-Sea…

  169. Ruby says:

    What do these shipbuilders do if there are no taxpayer funded ships for them to build?

    I can’t help thinking shipbuilding on the Clyde would be better off without these UK military contracts.

  170. Taranaich says:

    @annie: Can’t remember the name of the now ex Scottish Labour MP who stood up in the HoC and said he didn’t care if Scotland would be better off independent, he would still vote No.

    Jimmy Hood, who won Lanark & Hamilton East with a colossal 13,478 (29%) majority in 2010, having represented the constituency since its creation.

    In 2010, that became a 10,100 majority for the SNP’s Angela Crawley. Mr Hood’s vote divebombed by almost 20 points within five years.

    @Orri: The fox ban repeal was going to lose whether the SNP voted or not.

    Entirely possible if enough Tory backbenchers rebelled – but then, why did the Tories make such a fuss over the SNP’s comments?

  171. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Nana says:
    23 April, 2016 at 5:59 pm

    That would be ignorant buffoon Jimmy Hood”

    Beat me to it, Nana. The gentleman who, along with Maxton, ex-MSP, told the pensioners of Hamilton they would lose their “pension books” if they voted yes. Now BLiS______D are telling ’em a second vote for SNP is illegal.

    We expect the Tories to be heartless, mendacious bar-stewards but Labour take bear the gree as Massey Fergusons and Bamber Gascoignes.


  172. Clapper57 says:

    annie says:
    23 April, 2016 at 5:47 pm

    “Can’t remember the name of the now ex Scottish Labour MP who stood up in the HoC and said he didn’t care if Scotland would be better off independent, he would still vote No”.

    Hi annie, it was Jim Hood , Lanark Hamilton & East.

  173. Saor Alba says:

    It is such a shame that this has come about. The “Bitter Together” campaign has conned so many people and now some lessins have to be learned.
    It could all have been so different and we could have been up and running now in an independent, free and progressive country by now, run by our own Scottish Government.

    Onwards to more progress.
    SNP X 2 in May.

  174. Tinto Chiel says:

    Further re Jimmy Hood: when pupils from our school went down to the HoC to meet their local MP, he waxed lyrical about the Mother of Parliaments, etc. etc. but then announced he would have to leave them early to pick up his new Jag.

    I can only say the youth of Lanarkshire were not impressed.

    Scotland cannot move forward as a nation until Labour are removed from local government next year: that is the next priority.

  175. old dearie says:

    Had the very rare pleasure of a Tory canvasser at the door this afternoon. Haven’t seen one before here during the 40+ years of living here. She came complete with an A4 questionnaire and her eyes lit up when she saw an older voter. How did I vote in indyref? Yes. Did I not think that the SNP would do better with a strong opposition? Told her I thought SNP govt had done a good job. Did I not think Nicola should stick to her promise of a ref “once in a lifetime”? She couldn’t tell me when Nicola had said that and so I explained that she hadn’t said it and furthermore would only hold one if she was sure the Scots wanted it. Was I happy with that? Yes. She put a large pencil mark through the rest. Bye!

  176. Rock says:

    “It would have had to be someone the poor sods trusted who got sent to deliver that message.”

    The poor sods have only themselves to blame.

    It had been made perfectly clear to them that they wouldn’t lose their jobs if we voted Yes.

  177. Nana says:

    @Tinto Chiel

    I am starting to wonder what they were promised or given for shafting Scotland. I saw a tweet from someone querying if there was brown envelopes involved.

    Nothing would surprise me anymore.

  178. Phydaux says:

    A creep show full of horrors from the past.Past tense. as in the Labour Party in Scotland.R.I.P. We do not tolerate those who abuse our trust.

    You seem to prefer to compulsively repeat your neverendum of sneering contempt for our land and its people.Your constant refrain of ” It wisnae me! ” suggests a tendency for self loathing , projecting blame onto the SNP ad nauseam.

    We learned how to vote tactically, when we needed to, to get rid of the Tories and we did.We learned how to achieve an SNP majority at Holyrood and we did… twice in a row.We learned how to get rid of Labour at last year’s G.E. We did not need to vote tactically and gave the SNP a ringing endorsement of their governance.

    We lost the Referendum because not enough of us wanted it.Whilst the opinion polls report little change in the Yes/No percentages, we know we can hit the ground running when we re- launch Yes for Independence.

    We need to continue to respect those who choose not to share their opinions publicly and their right to do so.It was Einstein who said that we are bound by the ties of sympathy with others.We need them on board our journey.

    We will choose to vote at this election as we always do.We will check out what we read and think very carefully about it.The recurring theme here is that we know who the good guys are.

    I also hope that the SNP addresses our fundamental right to a legitimate platform for free and fair debate.

    We have achieved much over a relatively short space of time.We are on our way to achieving our goal of Independence, come what may.

    SNP X 2

  179. Giving Goose says:

    What I cannot understand is the fawning loyalty displayed by people like Jim Moohan of the GMB to the Tory Government.

    Having mulled over the possibilities I’d propose that Jim is a paid up agent of the London Establishment.

    All States attempt to infiltrate union movements and other organisations that are perceived as possible threats to the “Established Order”

    People are not always who you think they are.

    Jim Moohan of the GMB is not who people think he is.

    It’s the Brutish Way!

  180. Ian Murray says:

    The Westminster Labour Party told the branch office what they had to do and they did what they were told.
    I agree that by the time the next referendum comes around there will be very little left as the asset stripping will be complete
    Better Together will have been shown to have been the lie that Yes voters knew it would be and No voters will finally see that the SNP is the best and only way forward for Scotland
    The more Westminster piles it on the more converts to Yes

  181. Walter Scott says:

    I seen Sarwar’s face grinning in one of the photos above. If he gets in on the List we can expect the one man lying machine to shed shit loads more Labour voters.

  182. Tinto Chiel says:

    Nana, BLiS are simply troughers who will sell their country for personal preferment. It’s been thus since the Scots nobility (the original oxymoron of oxymorons) did the same in 1707, and the Duke of Hamilton, tooth-ache and a’, in the van.

    Never mind, I believe most of us here will see a better Scotland, for all our children.

    Apologies for “take” before “bear” previously: bad editing.

  183. Rock says:


    “Lack of empathy or sympathy for No voters is not going to get them to vote for independence. At worst it will further entrench there position.”

    Selfish people change their position very quickly when it suits them. They never get entrenched.

    Like many others here, I have very little sympathy for those who voted No.

  184. yesindyref2 says:

    Apparently the firm did the downtake and uptake and IR suppression for the Type 45, also stealth, so it makes sense. This: “… and is being considered for the Canadian Surface Combatant, to be built by Irving Shipbuilding Inc in Halfizx, Nova Scotia” is interesting, not a threat but perhaps making it cheaper per unit for the UK

    and this: “The work aleady underway on Type 26 could eventually lead to over C$70m for Canadian industry, based on the contsruction of eight Type 26 ships for the UK Royal Navy” fits in with what is supposed to be the plan. 3 were ordered last year I think, and the further 5 aren’t quite underway for the order.

    So who knows? Mind you, Nimrod MRA4 was cancelled and the first lot were mostly built, just £1 billion to go of expenditure. But to meet schedules a lot of advance ordering has to be done, for instance the steel missile tubes for Successor were ordered last year, before the SDSR and Main Gate. Doesn’t neccesaarily mean the project will go ahead.

  185. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry, that last for Nana not Valerie. But Valerie, you can read it too!

  186. Auld Snody says:

    The asset stripping of Scotland by the British establishment started after the first devolution referendum. People got it by the second devolution referendum and voted accordingly. The next referendum on independence will be the same, people will have got it and will vote accordingly. That is if there is anything left.

  187. Not Convinced says:

    Almannysbunnet said @ 11:20 :-
    I’m beginning to suspect that myself. They won’t let us go willingly but ever the mean spirited pragmatists they are setting things up just in case.

    The thing that repeatedly annoys me about the Tory Party is that, rather than being the “nasty party” people think they are, they’re really *the stupid party!* By this I mean, you might have a certain grudging respect for evil (“I despise you and everything you stand for, but I can see that you go right after things that you believe are best for you”), but the Tory Party pretty much consistently behaves in a manner that’s not in it’s own best interests! They opposed devolution, even though it’s actually given then more representation in Scotland. They oppose devolution to England, even though they’d likely be in charge of it! And they opposed Scottish Independence, even though they’d have gained from that too! (Particularly if you believe the Daily Mail when it comes to Scotland’s economy!)

    … and there’s another example of it too, that’s relevant to matter at hand – Ireland. It was pretty much the Tories who opposed and delayed every positive change that was (eventually) offered to Ireland, with the eventual result that when Ireland finally went independent the people of Ireland hated the UK with a passion! (A passion that lasts even now in some cases.) The government of Ireland has historically recognised that the interests of Ireland coincide, to a large extent, with the interests of the UK (look at the actions of de Valera’s government during WW2) but has had to tip-toe past the opinions of it’s own people!

    Now consider the case of an independent Scotland. The interests of Scotland would also largely coincide with those of the rUK (and the Republic of Ireland too for that matter), what sane UK/rUK government would want to create a situation other than “We’re sorry to see you go, and doubtless we’ll have disagreements over the years but let’s stay friends”? Apparently, a Tory one … Just like last time!

  188. yesindyref2 says:

    Hey, here’s a thing.

    The indy-supporting Sunday Herald should have a massive spread on this Type 26 Clyde promise union and Union thing, right?


  189. Vronsky says:

    Poor wee Kez is dead and gone already. But I feel that we’re all still trapped in the same awful situation – stuck in a political zombie movie.

  190. Big Jock says:

    No voters voted to continue London ruling Scotland end of. They can dress it up whatever they want to try and internally rationalise their stupidity and guilt. Many would vote no again because they are so subjugated by their masters, logical free thinking is impossible. We share our country with people who want our country run from another country. They are not like us we are not them, thank God.

  191. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Here’s a little-viewed Peter Curran grab from Dateline London, November 2013, discussing shipbuilding-related scares/propaganda as peddled by ‘Scottish politicians’.

  192. Big Jock says:

    Vronsky- Back to Shraeders Cat again….5 more years,of this pish unfortunately.

  193. Tinto Chiel says:

    Hey, here’s a thing.

    The indy-supporting Sunday Herald should have a massive spread on this Type 26 Clyde promise union and Union thing, right?


    I’ve always liked your impish sense of humour, yesindyref2, but I feel, à la Chewing The Fat, that you’ve taken that too far… 😎

    Happy to be corrected tomorrow but it’s a test for the SH. what way will they jump?

    Thanks again for your smiley advice: but what dark power have you unleashed? 😈

  194. Kenny says:

    George Orwell had the “Labour” Party sussed out 70 years ago, writing about them being “in thrall to the establishment”.

    Some had the “Labour” Party sussed out 120 years ago!

    I believe the basic facts about the Red Tory Party should be taught in all Scottish schools — at the same time that kids are taught to only cross the street at a green light and not to take sweets from strangers?

    I feel for our friends in Wales. Labour is predicted to win their elections! What does it take for people to wake up and see the Red Tories for what they are?

    The only difference between the Blue Tories and the Red Tories is that the Blue Tories say openly that they are Tories. That is the ONLY difference!

  195. Dr Jim says:

    It doesn’t matter whether any of the ship workers on the Clyde voted NO or YES what matters is the media furore that better together whipped up about the contracts

    TV and print media were salivating over this endlessly, it was huge plank in the Better Together campaign and a giant stick to beat Alex Salmond with at the time
    They were interviewing ship workers for days with clips of shop stewards Labour and Tory spokespeople MPs MSPs

    The cancellation of military shipbuilding was as big a story if not bigger than the “You can’t use the pound” shit
    Remember it was a referendum not an area by area count so I’m sure it had an enormous effect Scotland wide

    How many more YES votes might we have got if this hadn’t been a story

    I remember Union Jackie Bird swooping in on her broomstick every night cackling with glee at the prospect of telling us all there would be no shipbuilding on the Clyde if Scotland votes NO, and that was just the News where we are, it was National ITV BBC and SKY every night
    Does anybody seriously think that only had a small effect

    Like I said earlier but kinda hoped I might be wrong Kezia’s already blaming the FM and the SNP, it’s not likely anybody’s going to fall for it but nevertheless it shows how far SLAB and the rest of them are prepared to go, it’s as if their ultimate aim is to wreck Scotland on behalf of the Tories

    What is the payment for that

  196. Tinto Chiel says:

    Dr Jim, BLiS______d are simply the human shields for the Tories, but they’re so effing stupid and bitter that they can’t see it.

    The payment for that is electoral oblivion…..

    Sleep well, suckers.

  197. Valerie says:

    Jeez, the folk down south are going batshit crazy at Obama intervention!

    Jonathan Freedland has an article in the Guardian, along the lines that Brexit is destroyed by Obama.

    There are 8,000 comments!!!!

    Pig fancier must be finished regardless of outcome, in June.

    Another prediction coming true, as BoJo will swan into no. 10, and his little henchman, Farage, will surf along on his coat tails.


  198. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Here’s another one, this time Politics Scotland, Nov 10th 2013, with Stuart Maxwell, Ian Davidson, and very special guest appearance by Wullie ‘It’s-Behind-You!’ Rennie.

    (Davidson, at approx 5.45, explains his ‘brake clause’ initiative…)

  199. Macnakamura says:

    This sounds familiar but a little earlier than we got it in our ref.

    Guardian comment.
    Lee Hughes
    It should be noted that a vote for REMAIN is not a vote for the status quo.

  200. Ghillie says:

    Quelle surprise.

  201. Ian Brotherhood says:

    One more…

    Ian Davidson and Stuart Maxwell again, this time on STV’s ‘Scotland Tonight’, Nov 7th 2013…and a very late extra special guest appearance by Alan Massie.

  202. msean says:

    Never believe anything Tories say,just ask anyone who made a deal with them,like the Lib Dems.

  203. heedtracker says:

    Valerie says:
    23 April, 2016 at 8:39 pm
    Jeez, the folk down south are going batshit crazy at Obama intervention!

    Jonathan Freedland has an article in the Guardian, along the lines that Brexit is destroyed by Obama.

    There are 8,000 comments!!!!

    Obama was far easier on YES than he is on Brexit. Its an incredible thing to watch but its probably all about money and US losing control of England completely. The US could live with an indy Scotland but England’s not going to be blue tory for ever. England does have an actual left.

    One of Obama’s aids said they think that if it is Brexit, it could mean other countries leaving the EU and that’s not a good thing for US interests. That’s why they used the sacrifice of their WW2 war dead. They are that worried.

    Essentially its centre right US piling in to save centre right England and EU. Look at how centre right EU shat on Greece for example. How frightfully toryboy of them. Look at how the EU allows any EU country to set its own corp tax, allowing members to undercut each other. Again, how very tory.

    Scotland could end up with an economy like Greece the way toryboy England is asset stripping their Scotland region. Its what toryboy’s can gain by this ongoing vote NO for the UK broad shoulders travesty, dragging it further down into recesion.

    Toryboy world can easily live with mass unemployment in its Scotland region. Its done so several times with old Thatcher the worst ever Scottish Prime Minister, for actually fcuking the Scots.

    My ex Slovene girlfriend Adam Tomkinski is more than specific, a strong Scottish economy is very bad for the yew kay, devoed PAYE for his Scotland region is going to absolutely fcuk the Scottish economy, bring to an end the SNP and Scottish independence ofcourse. If they can just get SLab back in, tax hikes will finish the job. The MOD wonks are only Britnats doing their toryboy jobs.

    Did I make all this up? No.

  204. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    The Herald has another story on this:

    She said the SNP in government has worked closely with BAE and the trade unions and would give them “full support” over the coming months.

    which destroys Dugdale. Now for Ruth Davidson:

    Ms Davidson said she spoke to the Defence Secretary on Saturday morning to “seek reassurances” regarding orders to BAE Systems on the Clyde.

    “Michael Fallon confirmed that the orders for the Type 26 frigates and OPVs (Offshore Patrol Vessels) would go ahead as planned and as set out in the SDSR in November,”

    which could destroy Davidson. Fallon was ingenuous and evasive in his answer, and either she doesn’t know, or she doesn’t care, both are bad.

    Why? The SDSR 2014 doesn’t mention Clyde, Scotstoun or Govan, in fact it only mentions BAE once – in connection with submarines. In other words it doesn’t spwcify the Type 25 will be built on the Clyde at all. What is does say is this:

    We will publish a new national shipbuilding strategy in 2016, which will lay the foundations for a modern and efficient sector capable of meeting the country’s future defence and security needs. The acquisition of the Type 26 Global Combat Ship will be crucial to the future of the UK’s warship-building industry and form a central part of the strategy.

    new national shipbuilding strategy

    now what does that mean?

  205. yesindyref2 says:

    (posting while eating my tea!!)

    First quote was from Sturgeon of course, and typo Type 25 = Type 26.

  206. Dorothy Devine says:

    Valerie , the Guardian has a similar arithmetical impediment as the Labour Party – it double or even treble counts comments

    That said even 2,000 comments is to be applauded.

  207. Iain says:

    The yoons don’t like it, but Scotland has moved on and they are yesterday’s news. Scotland is a new country. The Indy ref is a formality. We will win and the yoons will loose. The young people of Scotland are for independence and a decent future. Let’s leave 17th century politics behind and more on. Scotland’s future demands it.

  208. Thepnr says:

    I served my time in the shipyard. That picture you see as my avatar is a painting of an American Shipwright from around the 1890’s.

    I’m a shipwright so I thought it suited, my father too served his time in the shipyards he was a welder. When I wanted to stay on at school he said to me “What you want to do that for? I have you a job for you in the yard.

    That was the way in those days.

    I have much sympathy for those that may lose their jobs, I have no sympathy whatever for the Trade Unions that told their workforce to vote NO.

    I do have a problem with the trade unions as I’ve saw their “bad side”, which is exactly what we saw during the referendum.

    During the discussions with British Shipbuilders over the closure of my yard, under a Tory government I must add. I’d been nominated by the boilermaker apprentices as their spokesman.

    The boilermakers convener at the big round table meeting told me otherwise. “You’ll keep your mouth shut unless I ask you to speak”. He also said “You shouldn’t even be here, so mind and shut up!”

    I did, I sat and listened and when all the squawking was over, I said “and what about the apprentices?” Seriously I couldn’t believe that this had not even been talked about. It was all about the “package”, how much are we gonna get. What’s the deal?

    Those, shop stewards then at the table went down in my eyes, guess not much has changed.

    Just thought I’d add this, people working in a shipyard are like people working anywhere else, they all have opinions and views. I think I can confidently say that there were as many voted Yes from the yards as there were in the general population, 45% or so.

    I’m just surprised that no one yet has come on to put you who disagree right.

    Do not conflate the actions and words of SLAB and their Trade Union acolytes with the actual workers.

    They are not one and the same thing.

  209. Grouse Beater says:

    In case you were on holiday the few years:

    SNP achievements:

    And it’s not an exhaustive list.

  210. Ian Brotherhood says:

    As Rev states in the editorial:

    ‘The clear implication – while not directly stated – is that only the Tories were responsible for the promises.’

    It should be borne in mind (if it helps anyone who may become engaged in conversation about this stuff) that if the word ‘promises’ is replaced with ‘threats’ the statement remains apt.

    Reid, Davidson, Lamont, Rennie, Carmichael, and any other Scottish ‘Big Beast’ who strays anywhere near this subject should have their previous statements rammed right up them via every medium available.

    I have no-one close to me affected by this latest news, but I have pals who worked in the yards and I’ve worked in pubs where I had to serve (and occasionally remove) people who’d worked in them, so I know this: the ‘Red Clydeside’ myth may have faded somewhat, but it was not a work of imagination – it was based on real people who were remarkable in many ways. Their numbers are, of course, greatly diminished, but one outstanding characteristic of those folk is a tendency to get rather miffed if they feel they are being made a fool of, or betrayed in any way.

    Ian Davidson must be thanking his lucky stars that he was hoofed from public life last year – what remains of SLab is about to find out that the spirit of ‘Red Clydeside’ is very much alive, and it’s his ‘comrades’ who’re about to cop it full-frontal.

    Quelle dommage indeed…

  211. Luigi says:

    heedtracker says:

    23 April, 2016 at 9:46 pm

    Obama was far easier on YES than he is on Brexit. Its an incredible thing to watch but its probably all about money and US losing control of England completely. The US could live with an indy Scotland but England’s not going to be blue tory for ever. England does have an actual left.

    I think it is more to do with the fact that an Indy Scotland would likely remain in the EU (and NATO). For Obama, this is the bottom line, to deal with a European block, not an isolated UK. Just imagine, if the rUK leaves Europe and indy Scotland remained in, they would be well behind us in the queue. I don’t think that would go down well. 🙂

  212. pitchfork says:

    What is interesting looking back then at Labour propaganda is how little Kez figures,she wasvery much a junior figure. If you’d said to anyone in the Labour Party then thatin 2 years time Dugdale would be leader of Scottish Labour they’re have laughed you out the room.

    Mind you, if you’d told them they!d be down to one MP in Morningside saved by tactically voting Tories and in danger of finishing below they Tories at Holyrood they’re have been calling fir a straight jacket.

    Funny how some things work out.

  213. Tinto Chiel says:

    Grouse Beater: your impressive list, which I saw a few days ago, deserves a wider audience. Presumably similar SNP Press releases have been ignored.

    This cuts to the chase. How do we subvert the MSM manipulation of news?

    NS has indicated a push to unite the Yes movement in the summer. I hope there is also a strategy to battle Vichy Vision. Union Jackie Bird et al. need sorted out.

    BTW, the Orgasmatron for Betty and Shakespeare has left me strangely unmoved. Should I seek therapy?

  214. DerekM says:

    The payment for that Dr Jim was control of Scotland and zero scrutiny unfortunatly for them their game has been rumbled by us the people.

    And is why they have no idea what to do and are still bumbling about using the same yoon tactics as they always have lies,media distortion and pass the buck politics.

    I remember when the people of Scotland turned on the blue tories well on the doorsteps it seems Labour have some how managed to beat the blue tories as the most hated party in Scotland which in its own right is quite a feat.

    This story was always going to happen hope you liked the shiny beads Scottish no voters aww what a shame your big bad eton snob masters have taken them away dont you want them to take your beads away tough, maybe next time you will vote yes.

    Labour have been played for a fool and its not just been during the indy ref but for many years before that,they seem to think being friends with the blue tories is important ,when the blue tories just use them and show utter contempt its a strange relationship.

  215. Glesca Keelie says:

    I served my time in a yard, left in my final year. Maybe this sounds big-headed but I thought things were on the decline, 1966. And job demarcation, Jesus Christ.

    You would talk to men who had no knowledge of the outside working world, and that I did not want. So I got a job in contracting.

    Anyhoo, before the Ref. we organised a meeting for the people in BAE, with the panel people who had been in the workin in Browns. As the staff trickled out we tried to hand out leaflets for it. We were treated like shit on your shoe by EVERY one of them. And with the look on their faces. I asked one guy how many men were working in the yard. Oh, thousands he said. Aye, right. Street devoid of cars, car park half empty. Asked another how many. A few hundred.

    A handful actually turned up, maybe four. They appeared to be management stooges. Full of argument.

    So, I’m afraid, I have no sympathy for them. You might think they would look at the steady reduction in ship-building, and yards, excepting during the two wars and think, hmm, might be on a loser here.

  216. Dr Jim says:


    What an incredible word, when you hear the Scottish government say “We’ve got a strategy” for something, your mind immediately looks forward to something good’s going to be achieved

    When you hear Westminster say the same word you immediately say “Aw Naw” where’s the cut coming, who’s getting screwed

    That’s the difference isn’t it, our team tries to make things happen for the benefit of the country
    Team Tory does the same, but for the benefit of themselves and to other countries detriment

    Strategy, I’d give them strategy

    Oooh btw Jamaica has announced that once Queen Betty’s cashed in there’ll be no more Monarch cheering stuff in that country after that and goodbye (on her biffday too)

  217. K1 says:

    Nah Tinto…yer chip’s workin’ jist fine 😉

  218. John from Fife says:

    I have to agree with previous posts that Asset Stripping which is gaining momentum, could be the biggest problem for an Independent Scotland.

  219. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –

    Our comments overlapped there, I hadn’t seen yours, but I think we’re on about the same thing.

    Whatever ‘spirit’ it is that forms loyalty to a family, neighbourhood, specific activity or belief may well be described as ‘tribal’, and it can just as easily be dismissed as sheer selfishness. But that doesn’t make it any less real or potent as a force which cannot be ignored.

    In the context concerning us directly I wouldn’t even lay the blame at the door of the Tories – they’ve always been upfront in their contempt for Scotland, and the systematic degradation of our heavy industries is now a matter of academic discourse rather than mere ‘opinion’. London didn’t need/want/like the idea of a ‘Second City’, so we had to be brought to heel.

    But Labour was not – and never has been – honest about its overarching plan for power, and that’s why it has failed. Crucial to every Labour electoral strategy in the past forty years has been the assumption that Scotland would return them, locally and nationally. Now that that’s gone? They’re fucked.

    That realisation is now dawning on many ‘No’ voters. They assumed it was all ‘just’ about the SNP and Salmond’s pipe-dream. Now that AS is out of the big picture and they see what’s happening? They can’t just laugh it all off via the comics they read, and are left with the prospect of P45’s dropping through the letterbox.

    Yeah, this is harsh, horrible stuff, but each and every breadwinner who relies on shipyard activity must now stay up very late at night, have a good long think about what they were told – by whom, and when – then do some serious research and reflection.

    Part of that ‘reflection’ should involve why they didn’t do the fucking research three or more years ago.

  220. Tinto Chiel says:

    K1: but I’ve got chips on both shoulders! Is there any hope?


  221. Graf Midgehunter says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi Mr Toon.

    Yesindyref2 is trying to send me his delivery details via the Rev for some Black Books. For some reason or another it’s not getting through.

    If I send you my Email address and he sends his mail to you could you then redirect his mail to me?

    @ Yesindyref2

    If Brian agrees then send your mail to:

    brian [at] BUMFLUFFdoonthetoon [dot] plus [dot] com

    Remove the BUMFLUFF to get the correct email address.

  222. ronnie anderson says:

    carrots carrots carrots

    here pal these carrots taste like onions

    red onions red onions red onions

    Labour/Tories if you cant sell it wan wie,sell the ither wie.

  223. Thepnr says:

    @Glesca Keelie

    You left in 1966, bloody hell you should have witnessed job demarcation in the mid 70’s. An absolute disaster in my view.

    Here is a real life example. My apprenticeship finished I’m let loose on my own in the engine room. Great job, I have all these padeyes for lifiting equipment to get welded on.

    I have a drawing and an apprentice welder to tack them on. Simple!

    No it wasn’t, there was a staging plank (scaffold) only three feet from the ground that one end of was lying on the ground. I picked it up and put it back where it should have been.

    There was a roar! WHY ARE YOU TOUCHING THAT PLANK? from a shop steward, get a Stager it’s their job.

    No shit I had to walk all the way across the yard get a stager, bring him and back and he said “you brought me all the way here for this”. I just said “don’t blame me blame him”.

    You have to understand, people were scared. The jobs were going East, Scotland no longer was to be a proud shipbuilding country. The far East had taken over it was a worrying time and just like the mining industry and the steel industry the worries were proven to be right.

    I just cannot understand why we gave our industrial base up for a financial sector, so called “invisible earnings” at the time. It doesn’t make sense. You can’t sell invisible earnings and only manufacturing and production in my view produce REAL earnings.

    Invisible earnings are just that invisible. Fuck the bnkers.

  224. K1 says:

    None Tinto…it’s over! Yer a fully integrated Cybernat…just brrreeeaatthhhee….


  225. Tinto Chiel says:

    I know I usually hide my angst behind ill-judged attempts at humour, but it seems to me the most important question for the next few years of our campaign is: how do we counteract the lies of MSM?

    There are a lot of intelligent commenters on here at all hours, so what do you think?

    I think that we would be home alone if we could crack this question.

  226. Tinto Chiel says:

    K1: “I can see colours, man!”

    I love the smell of BLiS______d in the morning.


  227. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    There is only only one thing we can do to end this misery and that is just tell the truth. I have no fear of the truth though others might.

  228. macnakamura says:

    I know not how the shipyard workers and their families voted in indyref.
    Soon they are going to be suffering if the reports are accurate.

    Whilst condemning the unions and the LabParty for their role in the scare stories and lies at that time, we should not be seen to be taking any pleasure from telling the workers that we told them so.

    Having said that, if anyone is near the yards with some WBBs ………

  229. heedtracker says:

    Luigi says:
    23 April, 2016 at 10:12 pm
    heedtracker says:

    It could also good old risk. UK is a huge economy but its got giant debt as we know full well. Pulling away from EU trade block is one thing for a balanced healthy economy but for one like ours, that depends on free movement of cheap skilled labour and risk starts to get worse.

    Its just one of those ghastly UKOK ironies that Brexit is using anti immigration to win but immigration is pretty vital to the UK service economy.

    Project Fear rages away at us in Scotland with their terrifying giant debt, no oil, so forget indy etc. So if you’re an objective strategist and assume the Kevrage gits of this world are right and indy Scotland did have serious problems, it wouldn’t have that much if any effect, on the US in particular. If the UK does Brexit and hits recession again, with our giant debt and deficit, you have all kinds of shit possible. A non toryboy UK government for starters, a non nuke weapons and so on.

    Brexit is too big a risk for US led western economies but London is also a world bank center and they’re no doubt squeezing Obama too, in Washington.

  230. Gary45% says:

    Well said macnakamura.
    I take no pleasure in anyone losing their job, (apart from anyone at Pathetic Quay).
    I hope the ship yard workers realise there is a future in ship building that will come when Scotland is independent.
    Expect Jim “the slim” Hood to come slithering out from his shit den blaming the SNP.

  231. Valerie says:

    VERY interesting

    CNN mentions the break up of the Union, and role of Scotland, as being a key to Obama intervention.

  232. call me dave says:

    Prof Curtis : It’s all over and your 2nd vote isn’t worth anything

    SNP x 2 It’s not over until Jackie Baillie calls ‘Uncle’

  233. Thepnr says:

    @call me dave

    Same shit, different day. Have a feeling this could backfire on the Unionists. Haha fuckem.

  234. scotsbob says:

    @tintochiel Engage in websites other than here. It’s good to come here and share with like minded people. However on places like Youtube, the influential moneysavingexpert discussion forum and others, the pro unionist views are expressed with very little counter arguments or opposition being presented. I think those who support independence should be seeking out the influential forums on the Internet and engaging more vigorously. I don’t mean slanging matches but presenting facts and countering misinformation.

  235. NeoconNat says:

    Tinto, re. How do we counteract the lies of the MSM?

    Good question. There are a few options, some more realistic than others.

    I’m sure Rev Stuart is busy enough as it is, but in Wings you have the basis of a very effective response to the MSM lies which could be augmented. I guess the idea of a daily newsletter has been considered?

    Most of us, I’m guessing, aren’t buying newspapers any more, or are buying less of them than we did before, so if you combine the potentiality of that with a newsletter and possibly a YouTube channel that committed to a daily half hour news round-up or something you’d be providing a service that most of us would happily pay for.

    Imagine, for example, a subscription service which cost say £4 per week. For that you’d get a newsletter emailed 5 days a week covering stories relevant to Indy/Scotland in detail. The same information could be quite easily recycled into a half-hour news video delivered via YouTube or something — broadcasting live is actually a cinch nowadays too remember, if that was deemed appropriate.

    Of course, you would need to put money into something like that, hire good people, researchers, talking heads, people with know-how, etc., but it would generate money because I think a lot of people would pay ( as I said, most of us are financially up through not buying papers).

    Wouldn’t it be good to watch some sort of Wings news program at 6 instead of Jackie, even if it was on Youtube which most of us can easily access?

    The good thing is, once you put the people in place, something like that would evolve and grow and it would scale up nicely if required. Information is the key, pump it out there and you will see results.

    Anyway, that’s my answer. I’ve looked into examples of how defenceless workers in places like Latin America successfully confronted big multinationals and death squads with little more than flyers and determination. We don’t face the sort of intimation they faced, have much better resources, and have much better access to information, so we have no excuse.

  236. call me dave says:

    Here’s a cheeky bit of presentation. The first set of comments run almost seamlessly into the labour section if your not careful you could get the wrong message by mistake, or the labour message by mistake.

    It’s the way they tell em! 🙂

    Anyhoo! Stretcher for Deputy Dugdale!

  237. call me dave says:

    Remember tennis is a game that takes two to play!

    Back to the golf!

  238. yesindyref2 says:

    Demarcation! Yes. More stories please 🙂

    @Tinto Chiel
    Best thing I can think of, what I did when possible, is pick something that has nothing to do with Indy so it’s not controversial, say football or Cameron even, maybe Andy Murray, demonstrate it to whoever, and then ask them to think if the same thing happens over Indy in the media.

  239. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Rev Stu has reminded us, many times, that less than 1% of WOS readers actually make any comments.

    For the most part, those of us who do comment try to make our comments brief and pertinent.

    Whenever lengthy comments appear, they should properly be scrutinised to establish any significant content before any judgement is mooted as to the motives of the author.

    With that in mind, could we please, as a ‘community’ of sorts, please exercise some basic etiquette regarding wind-up merchants?

    I’m trying to put in in different words in the hope that it will get through…

    In what has now become ‘old money’ – please just STOP feeding the fucking bacon-roll, eh?


    Can we do that?

  240. Tinto Chiel says:

    @scotsbob and indyref2.

    I agree engagement with various blogs can only help but I’m hoping for a master plan from the SG. There’s a lot of brain power in the upper echelons there but there also seems reluctance to confront the lies of MSM at the moment.

    Of course, they may think a counter argument may come across as negative whinging and that giving the enemy enough rope will allow them to hang themselves but I would love to see them going on the offensive. The Rev has shown on this thread how to compile a sequence of their bullshittery. The basic problem remains, how to get it out there to reach the Soft-Noes?

    As my very expensive (!) lawyer used to say, I shall consider and revert.

    Sleep well, insurgents.

  241. yesindyref2 says:

    Well that does it for the SH. First no shipyard story as the main front page, letting Tories and Labour off the hook for their Indy Ref promises which are failing miserably, likely puttng shipyard workers out of work, and destroying military shipbuilding in Scotland.

    Instead of that the lead story is by Peter Swindon who was unearthed by Rev Stu as “… formerly a Parliamentary assistant to Labour MP Anas Sarwar.” and also on the campaign tean for Ken Macintosh Labour MSP.

    Surprisingly he speaks to a few academics who have the view that SNP voters who vote for Greens and RISE on the list could reduce the total number of SNP MSPs so that they don’t make up an overall majority be tactically clever with no risk at all according to Prof Curtice who didn’t say that. To give some balance he quotes Mhairi Black who has a sidebar article, and that’s that.

    The Sunday Herald may support Independence for Scotland but not in our lifetime.

  242. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @meself –


    Beware commenters who post by the ‘column-inch’.

  243. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    24 April, 2016 at 1:02 am
    Well that does it for the SH

    What a bunch of hacks, or hax or whatever the sober term is for academia farting out UKOK bullshit

    “Dr Craig McAngus, a politics lecturer at the University of Aberdeen, who has reviewed the data, said: “If you look at the numbers and how things stack up in certain areas – such as Glasgow where I’d imagine every single constituency seat would go to the SNP – there is an argument that if you are pro-independence and left-leaning then why not bank on one of the other alternative left-leaning pro-independence parties?”

    He added: “To vote for another party other than the SNP on the list as a pro-independence voter is a rational thing to do. I mean, the way that the numbers stack up, the SNP are not going to win a lot of seats on the list.”

    Come back SNPouters with your wheels of vote anyone but SNP tactical vote disaster 2015. Aberdeen uni needs you. Isn’t that neofascist yoon nutcase Effiedeans Aberdeen uni?

  244. Andrew Mclean says:

    Tam Jardine 6:03 yesterday

    You said how could labour make any promises, and it has annoyed me since the referendum, at best labour were MP’s at worst nothing, and yet they spoke with the presumptive gravitas of a government. But in reality they had no power, nothing, yes in Westminster they could table a question, sit on a committee, vote on a bill or amendment but that’s all.

    But in Scotland they were making promises that they had no constitutional authority to do, no power to enact, and we had the fawning press taking that arse Gordon Brown as a fringing messiah.

    Here is my point, if labour Gordon, Reid , among the rest really did have some awesome power then they have usurped the democratic process and in doing so destroyed the constitution of the U.K. On the other hand they could just be a bunch of shysters.

  245. NeoconNat says:

    Ian, why don’t you let us decide ourselves? Don’t you think we are smart enough, or as smart as you? We don’t need you corralling us. Another self-appointed leader.

  246. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood I had bacon roll for breakfast with Stewart Hosie in Proven SNP hub & we ATE the bacon rolls.


  247. schrodingers cat says:

    great post pnr
    worth folk reading it again in the morn

    Thepnr says:
    23 April, 2016 at 10:01 pm
    I served my time in the shipyard. That picture you see as my avatar is a painting of an American Shipwright from around the 1890’s.

    I’m a shipwright so I thought it suited, my father too served his time in the shipyards he was a welder. When I wanted to stay on at school he said to me “What you want to do that for? I have you a job for you in the yard.

    That was the way in those days.

    I have much sympathy for those that may lose their jobs, I have no sympathy whatever for the Trade Unions that told their workforce to vote NO.

    I do have a problem with the trade unions as I’ve saw their “bad side”, which is exactly what we saw during the referendum.

    During the discussions with British Shipbuilders over the closure of my yard, under a Tory government I must add. I’d been nominated by the boilermaker apprentices as their spokesman.

    The boilermakers convener at the big round table meeting told me otherwise. “You’ll keep your mouth shut unless I ask you to speak”. He also said “You shouldn’t even be here, so mind and shut up!”

    I did, I sat and listened and when all the squawking was over, I said “and what about the apprentices?” Seriously I couldn’t believe that this had not even been talked about. It was all about the “package”, how much are we gonna get. What’s the deal?

    Those, shop stewards then at the table went down in my eyes, guess not much has changed.

    Just thought I’d add this, people working in a shipyard are like people working anywhere else, they all have opinions and views. I think I can confidently say that there were as many voted Yes from the yards as there were in the general population, 45% or so.

    I’m just surprised that no one yet has come on to put you who disagree right.

    Do not conflate the actions and words of SLAB and their Trade Union acolytes with the actual workers.

    They are not one and the same thing.

  248. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Graf Midgehunter & yesindyref2.

    Sounds like a plan – but why not just post your email address(es) as I did?

    Got an email from Nation Libre this morning, sent him my address, he ordered up 50 WBB’s to be sent to me and then emailed to let me know.


  249. call me dave says:

    Deputy Deadwood vows and there’s more…

    Labour believes that MSPs should not come to parliament with vested interests. 🙂 Really!

    Minds made up in Edinburgh Central

  250. schrodingers cat says:

    poll in SN

    3/4 of scots will vote to stay in the eu

    so will i, albeit holding my nose, bring on brexit and indyref2

  251. schrodingers cat says:

    oh, an btw NeoconNat

    did i forget to tell you today….

  252. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Luckily enough, I live in Dundee, in the North East Scotland region. At the 2011 election, the SNP won all the constituency seats but still managed to win a regional seat.

    Therefore, as an SNP supporter and member, I have no problem in giving both my votes to the SNP in less than two weeks.

    If I lived in Glasgow, I would be tempted to vote for Solidarity in the regional vote. I think Tommy Sheridan would be an asset to to Hollyrood.

    Similarly, if I lived in Lothian, I could be tempted to vote Green for the regional vote, coz I think Andy Wightman would be an asset to Hollyrood.

    I’m fine with the fact that I live in Dundee…

    SNP supporters in Glasgow and Lothian have to make up their own minds how to vote regionally. I don’t envy them.

  253. crazycat says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon

    Voting Green in Lothian doesn’t get you Andy Wightman, though, unless either:

    a) Alison Johnstone wins Edinburgh Central and is removed from the list or

    b) they get enough votes for two list seats.

    Neither of those is impossible, of course; the second seems more likely than the first but I don’t know how likely, and neither would anyone going into the polling station with the aim of electing Andy Wightman.

    I wish we had open lists – there are several regions where the Greens in particular have better (in my opinion, not their members’, obviously) candidates further down the list. That would also get round the problem of guaranteed election for various people in the Labour Party (and Adam Tomkins, perhaps).

  254. yesindyref2 says:

    @Graf Midgehunter
    Good idea, sorry I got busy + family visit, forgot to email Rev direct or dig out a gmail to post here.

    That’s BDTT emailed!

    Emm, can’t remember where I keot the details of my gmail addies, and I learnt during UseNet days to not post my own ones, as spam harvesters can get past the usual ways of disguising them. Not to mention the odd weirdo who trolls around newsgroups. I had a couple of very strange invites, right enough one actually was from Pinkerton’s offering a job. something really weird! and not quite my style!

  255. yesindyref2 says:

    A heads up for the Greater Maryhill Foodbank, article in SH:

    Little I could do, all I know is second-hand via here (and doing search / twitter / bateman). I have my opinion, but that’s all it is – an opinion.

  256. Macart says:

    Great posts last night from Ian Brotherhood and Thepnr up thread.

    Well worth reading.

  257. Ken500 says:

    Obama should have visited Scotland. Especially with 10%? of US voters being of Scottish descent and the part Scots played as founders of the US. US companies make £Billions from the Internet. People from Scotland (educated) invented TV and telephone – telecommunications – Internet. Obama went to IR and celebrated there. Obama is of Irish descent.

    An Irish Home Rule Bill was passed in April 1914, just before 1WW started. It should have been passed in September 1914 (Lord’s). Some Irish Nationalists (John Redmond?) put aside the Act to join the 1WW action. The Unionists in Ulster insisted on separate Battalions, they had already started to illegally import weapons.

    The Easter Uprising 1916. The Liberals partitioned Ireland 1922 Lloyd George. Michael Collins agreed to it. He was killed in the subsequent fighting.

    Northern Ireland (six counties 2 million) raises £28Billion in tax revenues and gets £14Billion (50%) more = £42Billion. Norwegian levels of funding

    Westminster has secretly and illegally taken the equivalent of £Billions out of Scotland. Scotland which should be the wealthiest part becomes the poorest because of Westminster policies.

  258. Grendel says:

    I saw one of the union shop stewards , a fellow called Malcolm Lynn on the news begging for help from ALL parties to save their jobs. On 19th September 2014 Mr Lynn posted a huge 55 on his facebook page where he said we has glad that we voted no as “turkeys don’t vote for Christmas”. I’m afraid that’s exactly what you and your No voting chums did Mr Lynn. Your betrayal has come back to haunt you.

  259. Ken500 says:

    It is uncomprehensible why Westminster behave as they do. Not agree to full FFA. It just does not make sense why they keep on hanging on. When Scotland/UK would be far better off if Scotland managed it’s own economy. If Scotland is better off so is the rest of the UK. The criminals at Westminster are so incompetent, ignorant and naive.

    If Scotland puts a tax on ‘loss leading’ alcohol (minimum pricing) or Trident is cut. They can have it and pay for it if they want. Or if taxes are collected properly in Scotland. HMRC is not fit for purpose. They let people tax evade. The majority of the Tax Havens are British (Thatcher). They could just be shut down. The Oil sector should be controlled in Scotland instead of Osbourne trying to destroy it. Losing thousands of jobs. 4 Helicopter crashes in five years and no Inquiry. UK Gov H&S rules not being followed. Scotland denied the opportunity to apply for EU renewable Grants because of Westminster indecision. The decline of ship building etc. Norway builds 100 vessels a year.

    Instead of Project Fear the MSM should have given accurate financial details etc. which Westminster tries to hide. With a tax system set up it might become clearer. Scotland still raises £54Billion, the same, without Oil revenues. £515Billion is raised in the UK. Scotland raises £54Billion. Pro rata the rest of the UK raises £42Billion and borrows and spends more. (£75Billion + £20Billion black hole). Osbourne was taxing the Oil sector at 60/80% losing thousands of jobs.

    A tax on land could put up house and food prices and damage exports. Shutting down the Oil sector (with no alternative) will ruin the economy. Many people are not bothered about the Council tax approx £20 a week. People who can’t afford it get a rebate and don’t pay it. Put on another couple of tiers. It only raises 15% of taxes. People are most annoyed by Councils wasting money on grotesque projects which the majority do not want. Refusing a £80Million gift to predestrianise the City. Many Landowners/farmers have no money, They mortgage the land to get money to live on. Some commit suicide. Land is exempt from tax to keep farms together. Progressive tax is the fairest way to raise tax and stop tax evasion.

    Vote Green at your peril. They have wasted £Million/Billion of taxpayers money blocking roads and essential infrastructure. Campaigns funded by Landowners. Land can be compulsory purchased by Councils if it is needed.

  260. Ken500 says:

    @ incomprehensible

  261. Dr Jim says:

    Been perusing the Interweb this morning and it looks like the online English voter hasn’t received President Obama’s intervention in their wee referendum with grateful thanks
    It was alright for our wee referendum though

    SNP giving out SNP wrapped sweets and wee cakes with the logo on for the voters and kiddies on the campaign trail, even helping folks with their shopping
    I’ve not had anything like that and I’m in it
    Who’s branch is that, I want to join

    Labour comdemn it as vile SNP tactics (True)

    You can’t stop laughing can you

  262. Ken500 says:

    Some of these Union Officials should take a good look at themselves. Books are written about poor management and Union leaders who colluded with them against the workers. The Unions finance the Labour Party. Finance illegal wars and banking fraud. Bob Crowe refused to fund Labour.

    The English working class vote for the Tories and UKIP. They voted for Thatcher. Thatcher had 3million unemployed and interest rates at 15%. Thatcher deregulated banking causing the banking crash. Sold off Utilities now owned by foreign National companies. Thatcher secretly and illegally took the Oil revenues and built Canary Wharf and Tilbury Docks. Thatcher let tax evading Non Doms illegally buy up the Press. She broke the Ministerial code and lied about it.

    BBC Scotland do not show Outlander or Andy Murray.

  263. Macart says:

    That’s the overreaching problem with any hegemony, entitlement and all the complacency, greed, self importance, arrogance and condescension a closed shop brings to the field. Your party political system as its run by those and such as those in Westminster have a kind of an understanding. They know its always going to be a two horse race (the spare wheel of the Libdems becoming an enabler), so basically the deal breaks down to voting blocks the length and breadth of these islands and the marginals in middle England become the true contest. THEY become the true kingmakers in who sits behind the big black door in Downing street.

    The voting blocks are taken for granted, the parties taking it as a given that this is MY vote and this is how the public is ALWAYS going to vote in this area. I mean its ducks in a barrel. This is the ONLY system, the only parliament and only one of these two parties will ever be in power. The punter is effectively screwed, their choice limited and the outcome assured for the establishment in a voting system of their choice. Regardless of who you vote for between the two, they get someone they can work with.

    In short, the game is rigged and the house coins it in. You can’t beat the house right? RIGHT?

    That is right up until you can. Until YOU decide to change the house rules.

    With a captive audience who else were you going to vote for? People voted for Labour because they weren’t the Tories and Labour reckoned they’d taken care of the SNP decades back with the creation of the myth of the Tartan Tory. Not really the most inspiring of reasons to vote for anyone is it? Vote for us because we’re not them and of course that’s all they felt they needed to campaign on.

    Ideologically you couldn’t put a fag paper between the Tories and Labour after the Blairite overhaul of the party. They didn’t really roll any of Thatchers carnage back. They paid lip service to social justice whilst playing with their new buds in the finance sector and traipsing off to overseas adventures with the big boys. Deindustrialisation simply continued with a big I’m sorry (but, no really), red rosette pinned on its chest and a sad/concerned face painted on. The main thing was the votes were in the bag and business could continue as ususal.

    Except now there is more than one parliament. There are more than two parties and those are parties with clear ideological water between themselves and the establishment. These parties have an idea or two about putting democracy back into the hands of the electorate. They even have a few ideas about putting folks back into work, stewardship of the resource base and economy. Y’know, stuff Labour and the Conservatives gave up as being too much like hard work some time back.

    Maybe just me, but I’m looking at parties and a parly that was willing to ask the population of a country how it wanted its system of democracy defined. Seems they might be more interested in folks opinions than those who took those opinions and our votes for granted.

  264. NeoconNat says:

    Ken, 99.9% of readers will probably agree with that big post. That’s why it’s wrong. You should email Rev. Stuart and beg him to remove it.

    When Rev. Stuart built this website, allowing us to comment and discuss, he maybe didn’t realise it at the time but he actually built Scotland’s very own particle collider.

    Our views are like particles flying around inside this huge ring, then. You don’t need to be a nuclear scientist to understand that the particles all going in the same direction doesn’t offer us anything.

    Only when the particles collide, like ideas smashing into one another, do we learn anything. Through the impact of mind up one mind we hope to make new discoveries just as the guys at CERN want to find God particles and answers to the universe.

    Luvvies on the left call this dialectics but they describe buying Rizla papers as dialectics too.

  265. Ruby says:

    an Brotherhood says:
    24 April, 2016 at 12:59 am

    Rev Stu has reminded us, many times, that less than 1% of WOS readers actually make any comments

    Ruby replies

    Why do you think that is?

    Would it be better if more people commented?

    How can you encourage more people to comment?

    Do you think people reading the comments think they need to be highly informed re politics so are put off commenting?

    Do you think a lot of posters get the impression they are just being ignored and to get some attention they require to be a ‘flamebaiting troll’?

  266. Fran says:

    @ Macart

    In a nut shell. WM is to be like America, vote for the elephant or the donkey cos that’s all that separates them.

  267. The Isolator says:

    Slightly O/T went through to Motherwell for the fitba yesterday,and as we passed entrance to Dalzell there was an SNP photo shoot going on.Around 30 or so canvassers,but what struck me was the average age,it looked around 16,17.Very encouraging and uplifting,(more than can be said for my team’s abject performance.)

    Independence’s coming without a doubt.

  268. Andrew Mclean says:

    I suppose you’re right to pose those questions, but since this is an open forum, free for anyone to post, then there is no stipulation to have a great understanding of politics, other than the knowledge you are posting on a pro independence site.
    As for being deliberately provocative, or indeed utterly stupid to engender a response, that’s a sure way to get ignored.

    I’m of the opinion that if you have something to say, that is heartfelt, would contribute to the discussion and maybe even be a “good thing well said” as the French say.

    If you’re frightened of making an arse of yourself, or being ignored, I wouldn’t worry too much, you would have to be spectacularly imbecilic to top say, a recent poster who thinks dialects is a leftist method! Such buffoonery is tolerable in say the Scotsman, but would not enhance your cause here!

    In any case, if you don’t know what to say, then it’s probably best to leave that to the experts like some angry godhead, on the other hand if it’s something you feel passionate about, then “publish and be dammed”!

  269. NeonconNat says:

    Macart, everything I said to Ken above applies to you too.

    Actually I could summarise everything you said there in about 8 words. In real life I can convry all that just by the way I stand.

    No God particles or answers today everybody, go back to bed.

  270. Ken500 says:

    Rev Stu is otherwise engaged or trolls would have been deleted and blocked long ago. On borrowed time.

    Just like MSM delete and ban all Independistas.

    That is why Wings is so successful. Unionists trolls are non existent. They have wrecked every other website.

  271. Fran says:


    Or you could be like me and written a big speil, then submitted it without filling in the required fields and losing it all ! haha

  272. Effijy says:

    I checked out the front page of the Sunday Herald after their
    dire attempt that was last weeks edition.

    No Shipyard order and job losses headline, but another nothing new story written by a Labour campaigner.
    Your true colour are firmly established if you don’t think that loss of Scotland’s core skills on the Clyde are worth mentioning.
    Goodbye and rest deceits.

    The Sunday Redcoat amazingly printed the First Minister’s quote
    condemning Tory and Labour Parties for their promise of an order for 13 Clyde built frigates.

    I was disappointed that they printed a quote from wee Ruth Krankie who claims inside knowledge that an order for the Clyde was secure. They didn’t chase up the quest of the original order being cut down to 8 and now we have question marks over the number that will finally be placed, nor that matter that a further delay in signing off the order will see major redundancies when the Aircraft carrier is complete.

    You would probably need to employ a journalist to have these questions answered.

    I’d also like to endorse the Rev in that if you want Independance
    and control of your own destiny, you MUST vote for SNP x 2 no matter what other party you have sympathies with.

    If we all pick from the mix of, Rise, SSP, Green, etc to give
    our 2nd vote we are in all likelihood giving a Red or Blue Tory the seat.

    If BUM across the board are wheeling out Mickey Mouse Professors
    to persuade you to vote for these parties, then you can be certain that it is advice that you cannot take.
    SNP X 2.Vote anything that you like after Indy Ref 2. Not before.

  273. NeoconNat says:

    Andrew, good morning.

    I didn’t see anyone refer to dialectics as an exclusively leftist method, could you point him or her out? Like you, I understand that dialectics plays a central roll in the theories of Marx and that he basically stole it from Hegel.

    Everything good that Marx said was stolen. The rubbish bits that proved to be wrong were his.

  274. Andrew Mclean says:


    I have lost count of the times I did that. This is the trick I learned, writing on say word, then copy and paste onto the text box, or you can even cut and paste the post you are replying to into word, then you’re not going to forget the gist of your response!

  275. Fran says:

    @ The Isolator

    The young are energised and passionate about the future of the country (well a lot of them anyway), its good to see

  276. Glesca Keelie says:

    Thepnr says:
    23 April, 2016 at 11:10 pm

    @Glesca Keelie

    You left in 1966, bloody hell you should have witnessed job demarcation in the mid 70’s. An absolute disaster in my view.

    Here is a real life example. My apprenticeship finished I’m let loose on my own in the engine room. Great job, I have all these padeyes for lifiting equipment to get welded on.

    I have a drawing and an apprentice welder to tack them on. Simple!

    No it wasn’t, there was a staging plank (scaffold) only three feet from the ground that one end of was lying on the ground. I picked it up and put it back where it should have been.

    There was a roar! WHY ARE YOU TOUCHING THAT PLANK? from a shop steward, get a Stager it’s their job.

    No shit I had to walk all the way across the yard get a stager, bring him and back and he said “you brought me all the way here for this”. I just said “don’t blame me blame him”.

    Same with me. I was moved from the plant, maintenance, onto a boat, must have been 18ish, marker-off says we have cabling going through that bulkhead. This is below decks. I had no idea o the working practices.

    Right. I have another, younger, apprentice with me. We’ll get an air-drill and get to work. Some guy saw us and damned near shut the yard down. And I was telt how it was done. You could go and hide for a week and nobody would miss your presence. I used to go hunting for the chargehand to get jobs. I remember one of the joiners was a black-belt in judo. We would get lessons from him where he was working. Home jobs, currency, 20 fags.

  277. NeoconNat says:

    Lol @ “You would probably need to employ a journalist to have these questions answered.”

    Good vibe, effijy.

  278. Fran says:

    Andrew Mclean

    Aye good point. But I refuse to buy office which should come as standard on every pc/laptop. Mr Gates no got enough millions? I’m gonna stop myself before I start a rant haha

  279. Fran says:

    I’m off, got work to do

  280. Nation Libre says:

    Sunday Herald at it again then, three anti SNP stories that I can see and no big splash on the shipyard situation

    Hopefully the people that continue to point to the pro SNP stories will let up now. A very clear agenda at the SH

  281. G H Graham says:

    If you rather write outside of WordPress (e.g. here on Wings), you can use the free writing tool that comes with Windows. It’s called Notepad. It’s as basic as they come but doesn’t rely on a fragile internet connection.

    Windows also bundles free of charge, Wordpad. It’s a very light version of MSWord from the MS Office Suite but has been included in every Windows version since Win95.

    Spellchecker is a useful error checking tool that Labour’s north British branch office doesn’t use very often. Unfortunately Microsoft doesn’t include a factual error checking device in any of its applications yet. Perhaps because the basic buffer memory of the error checking dump file would take up too much room on the hard drive, once it started looking at Labour’s press statements which can usually be found, unedited on BBC Shortbread’s propaganda channel.

    But you can do a manual check yourself. Examples of Labour’s accounting unit’s blunders can be found all over the internet by including in the search field words such as “Jackie Baillie”, “Liar”, “Subway”, “Ian Gray”, “Trams”, Violent”, “Alcohol”, “George Foulkes”, “Steel”, “Shipyards”, “Better Together”, “Something for nothing”, “Stairheid Rammy”, “Johann Lamont” etc.

  282. J Galt says:

    “I was at the BAE shipyard in Govan last week”

    And she got out alive!?

    That said, as many of the posters have said the Clyde Shipbuilding Industry of the 1960s was sick to the core, management and unions, an arrogant attitude that Clyde was best and disdain for the “coolies” of Japan and later Taiwan and Korea Tec.

    Well they learned the hard way.

    Of course that has little to do with today but it is worth pointing out those with more romantic notions of the past.

  283. Grouse Beater says:

    NeoConNatterjack: Our views are like particles flying around inside this huge ring


  284. J Galt says:

    Nation libre

    Quite right – any notion that these mainstream publications are genuinely “pro independence” is not tenable.

    what they are is “pro money grubbing”. And they want share of the “45’s” cash without going too far!

  285. Dr Jim says:

    I’m hearing this morning that while Greens sympathise with the Clyde shipbuilders loss of jobs they believe there should be no warships built on the Clyde

    Any Greeny folks clarify

  286. Greannach says:

    Shouldn’t we be praising Kezia Dugdale’s selflessness in doing a Medvedev and keeping Anas Sarwar’s seat warm for him?

  287. Breeks says:

    Probably not in the best state of mind to be commenting, since I’ve just been watching CIA declassified on the Yesterday Channel, and you begin to realise two things; first the psychotic mentality which allows the CIA to interfere in foreign countries’ affairs and manipulate circumstances on the ground to manufacture circumstances more favourable to the US. It really is quite chilling.
    Second, is the casual nature of the documentary which discloses disgraceful information without so much as a blush; assassination is illegal, but quite acceptable if it’s called military intervention. Oh yeah? Says who exactly?
    There are also countless chicken and egg scenarios. They just had the Gadaffi story, very one sided, (no hint of Megrahi being a patsy for example), but one thing “new” stood out. Gadaffi was hostile to the US, and the US sought to overthrow him by manipulating Lybian nationals taken prisoner during their war with neighbouring Chad. The US could do this, because they were on friendly terms with Chad, and largely responsible for arming their troops to fund the war against Lybia. I’m not defending Gadaffi, but if the US is covertly supplying arms and incentives to one of his immediate neighbours specifically to wage war against him, is it really so surprising his politics turned out a little hostile? Be aware, my point isn’t Gadaffi, but the chicken and egg nature of political intrigue, and the psychotic agendas of both manipulative parties. And I mean psychotic in actual terms; no moral compass, no guilt, no remorse… No respect for fellow human beings.

    Am I sounding like a conspiracy theorist yet? I kept watching this program, and started to notice how many of those interviewed were special forces or psy-ops trained servicemen. The point being, long before any bullets were fired, or drones dispatched more likely, there was invariably an active and fairly mature psy-ops exercise underway and already well established on the ground.

    I then got to thinking… How much of our global terrorism epidemic has been triple filtered distilled to a purer form by years of cynical manipulation and distortion of innumerable peoples’ national identities and human weaknesses? We only EVER hear one side of the story. Who’s side of the story to THEY ever hear?

    I know, this is a monster size can of worms to contemplate on a quiet Sunday morning, but it is real, living history, and we live with the direct consequences every single day.

    What am I getting at? Well, we wring our hands and roll our eyes about BBC bias. Maybe we should stop thinking about this in terms of bias, and start thinking about “BBC bias” as an all out American style psy-ops assault, with its mission goal being to confound all us nasty Scottish separatists. It might not change the way we think, but what if we’re not the target? What if it’s the Unionists, and soft YES/No brigade who are having their ideas manipulated and worked upon? SNP bad! You don’t want to be bad too do you?

    Paranoid? Yep. Just a little. More like floating a barrage balloon to see who shoots at it. But these psy-ops regime changers rely on their faceless anonymity for best results, nobody knows or believes they are there, and their method requires propping up and empowering weaker factions which provide cover for the more effective covert insurrection which follows. The massive part of the exercise is carried out behind closed doors.

    The BBC isn’t just lying to us. It is manipulating the way we think. There is a psychological operation in progress. Scotland has rejected the Tories, Liberals, Labour and UKIP, so why are we continually subjected to the same agendas again and again? How few votes do they have to get before we see them removed from our TV’s? Bottom line is, it’s not about us. Westminster needs a glove puppet to dress up the hand that throttles us. They need us to believe this is the life we chose through the democrac process we observed.

    Sadly for us, just over half of us anyway, they are rather good at it.

  288. The Man in the Jar says:

    @Grouse Beater
    at 10:17am

    Like a huge ring flying around inside our views.

  289. Dr Jim says:

    Time the Virus was sent a virus

  290. heedtracker says:

    The BBC isn’t just lying to us. It is manipulating the way we think. There is a psychological operation in progress. Scotland has rejected the Tories, Liberals, Labour and UKIP, so why are we continually subjected to the same agendas again and again?

    BBC Scotland also not doing what they get paid mega bucks for, actual journalism. C4 news currently investigating possible tory election funding fraud in the south of England but Fluffie Mundell’s Dumfriesshire win was also highly weird in the 2015 total wipe out of all unionist MP’s in Scotland.

    BBC Scotland completely bury all of it, in England and Scotland.

  291. scotspine says:

    @ Breeks.

    Supporters of Scottish Independence are enemies of the UK state. Expect the State to do all it needs to do to counter that threat.

    The BBC and its employees are a weapon the UK state will continue to use to great effect.

  292. Macnakamura says:


    Another possible to consider

  293. Joemcg says:

    Breeks-you are not far off the mark. Trouble is people are so conditioned you get called conspiracy theorists or tinfoil hat wearers if you even hint at any of your points. Nothing is going to convince me that a covert operation was not in full swing during the vote from flooding the streets with BT incomers at weekends (never seen again) to total media influence,allowing a huge OO/BT march through our capital a few days before, psychological warfare and to postal vote shenanigans. Too much at stake you see.

  294. The Isolator says:


    Aye your right there.Gives you a wee glow inside knowing that our children’s children may just be brought up in an Independent Scotland.

    SNP x 2 Always.

  295. Capella says:

    @ Breeks – I agree. We don’t live in a democracy because we have no control over what our imperial masters do and how they use our taxes. It’s a bit of a gamble trying to fix that democratic deficit through independence but it’s our only hope.

    Don’t forget that the British Establishment does it’s share of covert psy-ops, political coups and assassinations.

    What’s happening in Brazil at the moment looks to me like a typical CIA style coup. Brazil is part of the BRICS countries setting up an alternative to the dollar dominated world. Like Lybia, that invites unwelcome interference.

  296. Dan Huil says:

    The BBC has given up any pretence of objectivity when covering Scottish politics. Don’t pay the britnat licence tax.

  297. carjamtic says:

    Glesga Keelie @ 09:34

    Aye remember it well,we have gone from that,to what we have now,’the need for speed’,nobody has time to chat…..get it done by such and such a time……. micro – management.

    These management/union extremist approaches are both right/wrong,we need a balance,trouble is yards in other countries that cannot outdo us in quality can give us a right doing in price,only for the moment on the basics,not the detailed engineering…..(they learn fast).

    That is why government orders are important,if we are to maintain any industry,in a competitive world…..(ships,tankers,oil rigs are queuing up at foreign yards for re-fits,repairs in addition to new builds).

    Where can be done ? On one hand we have a union guy spouting about competing for orders from overseas,(that’s pie in the sky),on the other the MOD via the Tories toying with them over orders,,like a cat would a mouse,are they just ‘playing’ or is the chop coming,pity the workers,fear is a terrible thing.

    The Red Tories get a mention as they are not only just deluded,they are actually worse than the Tories,people believed their lies,people trusted them,that’s a shame as we know,they are the Red Tory Union Men of the UKOK Tory Union,always lining their own pockets.

    This is another example of the positive argument for Indy,how easy would it be,sort out this mess and get on with actually building ships,(without scaring the shit out of and maintaining a quality workforce for the future).

    I suspect it would be very easy,if strong leadership was shown at government level,as it stands,Westminster does not give a shit about Scotland and in a competitive tendering world you need to bring your ‘A’ game and not with one/both hands tied behind your back or people on the make.

  298. FairFerfochen says:

    0333 20 20 401 – Scotland’s Talk-In

    Dugtail will be on taking questions in the next half hour

  299. Wuffing Dug says:

    Not been on here for ages – life a bit hectic, work etc.

    Ah, BAE on the Clyde – and so it came to pass….

    Or has it? Where does the truth lie on this one?

    I remember going for an interview there years ago and thinking **ck that am sticking with the oil industry. Glad I…. oh

    Loved the ‘turkeys voting for Christmas’ quote, you’ve got to wonder, what were they expecting? Lemmings unwittingly booked a cliff-side holiday.

    Interesting info on previous actions / views of work force and union reps.

    There will be a few yes people’s jobs affected but looking objectively at the evidence, pretty hard to have any sympathy.

    News for anyone looking for a move into oil & gas – yer up shit creek boyos!

    Now what…. we shall see.

  300. Jim Graham says:


    Over on James Kelly’s SCOT Goes POP he has a blog about todays SH piece on tactical voting. In the blog he gives an example of how the list seats are calculated using a non real world example. In the comments however there is a real world example from “Derick fae Yel” of the actual results in Central Scotland in the 2011 election. At the bottom of that example he shows that if only 1,743 fewer people had cast a list vote for the SNP then one of the seats that the SNP won on the list would have gone to Labour.

    SNP x 2

  301. galamcennalath says:

    Capella says:

    ” We don’t live in a democracy because we have no control over what our imperial masters do and how they use our taxes.”

    Thing I sometimes wonder, is it just lack of democracy?

    Imagine (it’s hard) a UK which has undergone a few changes. A PR elected HoC and a PR elected replacement upper house. Separate budgeting for genuine UK level expenditure versus England expenditure. Transparent redistribution of tax revenues from richer to poorer areas. A simplified, fair and progressive tax system.

    OK, a simple question. Would that really clip the wings of the imperial masters, the elite, the Establishment? I suspect they would simply work around the new system, even if it took more effort!

    They survived increasing suffrage, a more educated population, reduction in the powers of their HoL, etc..

    The UK is probably beyond mending!

  302. BJ says:

    Ruth Davidson put on the spot on Murnaghan when asked if anyone from the Tory gov was in Scotland campaigning. She said “Cameron is too busy just now and anyway he’s not an MSP”

    My Mum and Dad are out canvassing for me” she said with a smile. Murnaghan replied ..”but they’re not MSP’s either”

    She struggled to keep the Cheshire grin between her chubby chops in place.

  303. Kenny says:

    One thing that everyone has overlooked is what this conversation between Kezia Dugdale and management/unions must have sounded like.

    I do not mean to be unkind, but Kezia Dugdale is unable to even get unaided through interviews in which she is literally carried by the BBC.

    With the growing awareness of Scotland’s young, it cannot even be said that she has the intellectual abilities of a 12-year-old. A 12-year-old can think logically and constructively, while Dugdale can only parrot rubbish (which changes from day to day and frequently contradicts what she has said the week before).

    It would be a compliment to even call her style of speaking and thinking “duckspeak” — to use the Orwellian term.

    As we know from Johann Lamont, the leader of the “Scottish Labour” Party has no independent power anyway. Dugdale cannot promise anything — and, even if she herself could, “Scottish Labour” are on their way to becoming a “fringe party” in Scotland (despite the best efforts of the BBC without which they would be polling behind the Greens).

    So what did Dugdale actually say to the people she met? What were the real words (promises?) said? I would love to know the content. I would think at best platitudes. And I suspect the other side went away regretting half an hour of their lives they will never get back.

    Because if Dugdale’s appearances on the BBC and FMQT are anything to go by (in which she is clearly coached), she has absolutely nothing, nothing, nothing to say.

    What can possibly have been of any worth at a “meeting” between Kezia Dugdale and ANYONE?!?

  304. Ruby says:

    Andrew Mclean says:
    24 April, 2016 at 9:10 am

    If you’re frightened of making an arse of yourself,

    Ruby replies

    I definitely don’t have a problem with that. I reckon if you are not prepared to make an arse of yourself you never learn anything new.

  305. Capella says:

    @ galacennalath – Westminster’s beyond repair IMO. Corrupted by the 0.01% who ensure their interests are protected.

    Most people are honest and decent so it’s hard to believe the level of mendacity practised by some politicians and the fact that, as the Carmichael case, the Chilcot enquiry, the child protection failures show, you can’t get rid of them. They make the rules. And don’t mention the H o L!

    Small countries have a better chance of controlling their democratic institutions. Even if they do make alliances, they are on their own terms and negotiable. The Scotland Bill fiasco in the H o C shows how impossible it is to get genuine representation in the UK.

  306. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m not sure if you are paranoid Breeks. There is definitely an unhealthy total-ism about the UK’s information environment.

    Milieu control

    All communication with outside world is limited, either being strictly filtered or completely cut off. Whether it is a monastery or a behind-closed-doors cult, isolation from the ideas, examples and distractions of the outside world turns the individuals attention to the only remaining form of stimulation, which is the ideology that is being inculcated in them.

    This even works at the intrapersonal level, and individuals are discouraged from thinking incorrect thoughts, which may be termed evil, selfish, immoral and so on.

  307. schrodingers cat says:

    Jim Graham

    kellys figures are invented and represent nothing

    derick fae yell uses figures from 2011, why not from 1950?

    he must have missed the ge in 2015, or the recent polls which show an increase in support in the last 11 months

    in the real world, both their figures are complete bollox

  308. Ken500 says:

    Libya and Iraq were secular and supported free education and health care. They were modernising. Libya had a political system based on committees from the bottom up, based on French sans cullottes. The illegal invasions ruined their economies. The West supports apartheid State Israel and absolute despot monarchy Saudi Arabia.

  309. ronnie anderson says:


    Wullie Rennie the all weather weatherman, he doesent see the big black cloud on the horizon on the 6th of May.

    I dont care what the weatherman say’s
    The weatherman doesent know it,s gonny piss doon from ah great hight & he,s Drooked Wullie

  310. ronnie anderson says:


    Wullie Rennie the all weather weatherman, he doesent see the big black cloud on the horizon on the 6th of May.

    I dont care what the weatherman say’s
    The weatherman doesent know it,s gonny piss doon from ah great hight & he,s Drooked Wullie.

  311. Ken500 says:

    Small countries are the most prosperous.

    Norway, New Zealand, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore.

  312. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ruby –

    Dunno why such a small % comment.

    Could be that busy folk drop in and read the editorials instead of wasting time/money on newspapers? I daresay plenty of readers never go btl at all.

  313. Les Wilson says:

    Breeks says:

    There are other things involved re intervention in Lybia.
    This was really a covert operation by France and the US, with UK backing.

    Why, well as far as France was concerned, they very much want to keep the influence they have in the Northern African countries, which they once ruled.
    Gadaffi was changing that and reducing their colonial interests. They did not like that, and wanted Gadaffi out of the way to stop the rot for them.

    The US, were extremely concerned about Gadaffi’s plans to make Lybia the driving force in Africa, particularly the north but not exclusively so.
    Why was it such a concern, the answer to that was/is gold.

    Why so?, well Gadaffi had plans to set up a pan African currency which was to be backed by gold. This was a direct influence on the dollar, as we all know the US dollar is now backed with nothing, it is simply an IOU, which is looking more iffy as time goes by.

    If Gadaffi had succeeded, and his plans were well under way to do this by amassing gold which he would have used back this new currency, so it would be really worth something ie gold.

    The US dollar is the worlds reserve currency, now being challenged by China, who also would back their currency with real money, ie gold.

    The US produces dollars out of thin air, digital products are great for this, just press a button and hey presto, more bucks appear as by magic.

    The gold in Fort Knox has not been seen nor audited since the 1950’s, they could not even give Germany back the gold they were supposed to have stored for them. It is, according to many sources, all gone. (Also remember this, that most of the gold which was supposed to be held there was owned not by the US government, but held only on behalf of the US people.)

    All to subsidies the programs of the US military and other government programs. So for any country to start using a gold backed currency is a threat to the US dollar, while there is little they can do with China, Russia, Iran and others creating such a currency, they could and did prevent a gold backed Pan African currency by the covert bringing down of Gadaffi.

    The day, the dollar is swept aside by currencies of real value, is coming, and that will be Armageddon for the US dollar and the American way of life. They have abused their position as the worlds reserve currency by making sure America benefits big time from having it. World trade for example is in US Dollars, that suits them fine, they can manipulate that to their own ends.

    However, many countries are now beginning to side step the US Dollar and are making other deals in oil and gold that by pass it. It is an ominous move for the future of the dollar as the world currency.

    They have sucked the system for the dollar dry and it is losing credibility across the world. It is now sooner, or later doomed to fail.

    A complete US financial meltdown could happen at any time. As the coffers are empty, when this does eventually happen, the meltdown will be huge for America and equally for those who store dollars. It is coming, and a huge worldwide crash coming with it.

  314. Fred says:

    I would certainly vote for the likes of Andy Wightman, Tommy Sheridan or Leslie Riddoch if they just joined that national movement called the SNP and got over themselves. Yes they migh have to abide by the rules & get selected etc’ but unfortunately it’s too late this time as I’ve already voted n posted & still no sign of Slabs manifesto. 🙂

  315. Ken500 says:

    Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, Netherlands, Finland, Ireland.

    Scotland could be top without Westminster’s interference.

    Scotland 14th – Rest of the UK 16th

  316. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Fred I would,nt bet on said people coming together any time soon.After yesterdays events at George Sq & Soidarity supporters ( few in number)& X Solidarity members ,there is little hope of them Voting for SNP 1. the level of knowledge in politics (day to day) is dire unless they,re reading the Papers & quoting from them {Wings is a extension of SNP PMSL at that)& Tartan Tories} repeated again & again.

  317. Ruby says:

    Fran says:
    24 April, 2016 at 9:18 am


    Or you could be like me and written a big speil, then submitted it without filling in the required fields and losing it all ! haha

    Fran says:
    24 April, 2016 at 9:37 am

    Andrew Mclean

    Aye good point. But I refuse to buy office which should come as standard on every pc/laptop. Mr Gates no got enough millions? I’m gonna stop myself before I start a rant haha

    Ruby replies

    It’s annoying when your words just disappear into cyberspace!

    Open Office is just like Microsoft office but it’s free. Totally brilliant!

  318. Valerie says:


    You can’t unsee that shit! Be warned, you will now be seeking out other sources, and there are some good reliable sites.
    Nana posts some good links to ex veterans sites, that are evidenced.

    It’s been the case for decades.

    Everything you watched about Libya, just substitute Syria. Another secular society, bombed back to the stone age, for regime change. The covert ops are regrouping, with new arms being supplied. They are being careful, the Russians are on the ground, clearing mines etc.

    Notice how it’s slipped out of the news?

  319. Ruby says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    24 April, 2016 at 11:52 am

    @Ruby –

    Dunno why such a small % comment.

    Could be that busy folk drop in and read the editorials instead of wasting time/money on newspapers? I daresay plenty of readers never go btl at all.

    Ruby replies

    More fool them they don’t know what they are missing! 🙂

  320. FairFerfochen says:

    Dugtail says Labour will oppose a 2nd referendum in the event of a brexit.

    Her trying to sound so, so sincere only exposes just how insincere she really is.

    Callers mostly loaded but still the answers are pure wafflidge.

  321. Ruby says:

    Macnakamura says:
    24 April, 2016 at 10:45 am


    Another possible to consider

    Ruby replies

    Snap! Sorry I duplicated your suggestion.

    All these open source programs are brilliant!

    I had great fun with TuxPaint for kids!

  322. Capella says:

    We, i.e common decent people, pay taxes throughout our working lives because we want decent schools, hospitals, transport, communications and protection for the old, the young and the unemployed. With PAYE we have no choice anyway.

    The elite make laws that allow them to avoid paying tax, amongst many underhand ways of printing money for themselves e.g bonuses, bailing out the bankrupt financial system with taxpayers’ money, overseas tax havens, massive landowner subsidies etc.

    They subvert the tax system so that Westminster spends on privatisation of public goods, arms sales and foreign wars so that we can steal oil and precious metals from 3rd world people. No decent person would support such mendacity.

    They have corrupted the political system so that it’s impossible to elect a government in Westminster that will carry out the wishes of the electorate. Only the demands of the 0.01% are met.

    Time to assert our opposition to the corruption of Westminster.

  323. K1 says:

    At times there are so many comments that I’d imagine many people would be hard pushed tae find the time to read them all…and much of what is noted btl regarding atl has been articulated by others so well and discussed from varying viewpoints that there’s not much that can be added. Then the threads often drift into discussions around the current links that people highlight and off we go in tangents which are always in some way related to the political state of Scotland, current past and potential.

    All the while peppered wi anecdotes, humour, polemic, passion etc. It’s always fresh if you know what I mean, lively might be a better word. I suspect a lot more people read the comments than we can imagine though, also suspect the influence of Wings is far reaching intae the psyche of Scotland, we’re the modern day digital equivalent of sitting around the fire and telling our stories, passing on the knowledge to those who care to sit a while and just listen.

    Or is that just fanciful? 🙂

  324. FairFerfochen says:

    It’s really weird, every question Dugtail gets asked she goes in a loop round and round education, powers, taxes, edumication.
    Doom, doom, doom…

    Gawd help us if she gets elected to anything in Scottish politics, she’s an eejit!

  325. HandandShrimp says:

    Has anyone seen a Labour street stall or the like? Here we are at the tail end of the campaign and we have been out every Saturday for weeks. The Tories have made an attempt and have been out the last four weekends but I haven’t seen anything from Labour apart from a couple of chaps handing leaflets the weekend the candidate made a brief visit.

    It is almost as if Labour have no depth in organisation left. The publishing of a manifesto as the last off the postal votes are sent in seems a tad eccentric too. Especially if as reported postal votes could make up over 25% of the vote.

    The Liberals have been abducted by aliens though :O

  326. Macart says:


    Then it would be the biggest political mistake this decade if Ms Dugdale ever follows through on such a course.

    I know Kezia can be a bit hard of understanding, but the bottom line is the people have the power to call a referendum on independence. If a clear and sustained majority for such a referendum polls regularly, and if the Scottish government of the day is SNP, then that government WILL legislate to revisit Scotland’s constitutional status. No ifs, buts or mibbies.

    Ms Dugdale would not be opposing the Scottish Government, but the Scottish electorate. I’d wish her luck with that ill advised course of action but, y’know…

  327. K1 says:

    Maybe Labour just concentrating on their heartlands in Morningside? snigger…

  328. heedtracker says:

    Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, Netherlands, Finland, Ireland.

    Scotland could be top without Westminster’s interference.

    And do any of these successful countries hold election’s where government main opposition do not issue their manifesto until a few days before the election and long after the postal votes have been sent out?

    By main opposition I don’t mean BBC toryboy led media.

    I’m postal so I suppose you could argue we’re grown up enough to hold until whatever it is SLabour are trying to cook up next week?

    I called Aberdeen local vote register to ask if the same “sampling” that took place in the referendum will be done again and they didn’t know. The nice man said it could up the parties involved if they want to be at the opening of the postal votes, at least I think that’s what he meant.

    Dame Anne Begg’s BetterTogther vote NO neo fascist friend and colleague, Mark MacDonald of the National Front party’s on the Aberdeen list too.

    Seig Heil, as some say in Aberdeen.

  329. Nana says:

    I posted links earlier, think there might have been a rolling news thingy at the top of one and that may be why they have not appeared.

    Anyhow check this out started at 12.20

  330. carjamtic says:

    Ruby @ 11:39

    A Hitchhikers Guide to BTL Comments

    1.Do not under any circumstance post when ‘Under the Influence’, it will end badly,(hate yourself in the morning badly)

    2.Keep it short, less is more.

    3.Try not to write pish (it doesn’t follow that even though your hearts in the right place, your words are, have I showed you my scars).

    4.Do not ‘fear’ the hammers, the hammers are your friends (‘keep focused now’).

    5.It’s the Rev.s site try and stay ‘on topic’.

    Other than that, buckle up and kiss your erse cheerio;-)

  331. Jim Graham says:

    schrodingers cat

    “kellys figures are invented and represent nothing”

    Agreed. I don’t know why he even included them.

    “derick fae yell uses figures from 2011, why not from 1950?”

    He was not trying to make a prediction of outcomes at the current election.

    He was using actual figures from the 2011 HW election to demonstrate how easy it is to lose a seat when the SNP vote is given to another party on the list. In the example used it was a mere 1743 votes between getting a seat and losing it to SLAB

    Consequently he obviously could not use either 1950, 2015 or any other GE as there was no list factor in those elections nor does it matter who has increased support over the past 11 months, if you split the SNP vote you risk losing seats to the unionists. That was what he was showing

    SNP x 2

  332. Capella says:

    Iceland, population 325,000, jailed their corrupt bankers. They forced their president to resign over having money in a tax haven.

    UK hands over billions of tax payers money to corrupt banks who then carry on paying bonuses to the bankers. PM Cameron prevaricates and lies over his tax haven windfalls and carries on as PM.

    Which would you rather have as a role model?

  333. Scott says:

    David Cameron quote Scotland I just don’t care according to David Laws book and Clegg and ginger Danny was furious is this why Cameron will not come to Scotland I note he has time to run about a golf course in a buggy with Obama.
    What is the law on this defamation or slander I don’t know but someone should check this out and make Cameron deny what he said or sue Laws.
    Any thoughts on this Wings.

  334. Ruby says:

    Does anyone think that the BBC not showing ‘Outlander’ could easily put off other film companies who might be interested in filming in Scotland?

    Perhaps these companies may think they would be better off in Ireland where RTE were happy to show Outlander.

  335. schrodingers cat says:

    Has anyone seen a Labour street stall or the like?

    saw a man with a red tory golf umbrella and 2 libdems an a dug shivering in a phone box, does that count?

  336. schrodingers cat says:

    A Hitchhikers Guide to BTL Comments

    A Hitchhikers Guide to scottish council elections

    there is a theory which states that, “if ever anyone actually figures out the bizarre and inexplicable nature of the electoral system, it will immediately be replaced by another even more bizarre and inexplicable electoral system”

    there is another theory which states that this may have already happened

  337. Ruby says:

    carjamtic says:
    24 April, 2016 at 12:48 pm

    Ruby @ 11:39

    A Hitchhikers Guide to BTL Comments

    Ruby replies

    Ach **** that I hate rules!

    PS You haven’t answered my questions!

  338. galamcennalath says:

    Scott says:

    “David Cameron quote Scotland I just don’t care according to David Laws book”

    I picked that up from the Rev’s Twitter. Quite a revelation!

    Cameron washed his hands off Scotland. He won the Ref and just doesn’t want to know.

    He really has given up on the UK and is focusing on England.

    I get the feeling someone somewhere is trying to cause further problems for the Tories in Scotland. Fair enough. Any damage to Unioinist parties works in favour of the Indy cause.

  339. schrodingers cat says:

    Consequently he obviously could not use either 1950, 2015

    yes he could, the argument about the list vote is predicated on the result of the fptp constituency vote, the 2015 ge is a very very very solid indicator of how this will pan out in may
    eg, 2011 slab won 3 constituencies in glasgow, the entire basis of derik fae yells argument
    2015, slab won none
    since then the polls have shown a steady increase in support for the snp and slabs support tanking

    the only way that derik fae yells figures mean anything is if the polls show a sudden turn around and a swing towards slab in the next 10 days.
    even dugdale dressed like britannia sitting on a fukcing lion wont stop slabs downfall.
    unless you know something that no-one else does..
    in glasgow


  340. schrodingers cat says:

    Ruby says:
    24 April, 2016 at 12:55 pm
    Does anyone think that the BBC not showing ‘Outlander’ ….

    we should save it for indyref2 🙂

  341. Jack Murphy says:

    FairFerfochen said at 12:26 pm:-
    “Dugtail says Labour will oppose a 2nd referendum in the event of a brexit.”
    That’s exactly the same language as used by the Tories!

    I wonder why the Red and Blue Tories oppose a 2nd Referendum…

  342. galamcennalath says:

    Ruby says:

    “Does anyone think that the BBC not showing ‘Outlander’ could easily put off other film companies who might be interested in filming in Scotland?”

    It is a truly astonishing situation that a series set in Scotland, filmed in Scotland, and having Scottish history at the centre of the storyline …. hasn’t been shown on mainstream TV in Scotland.

    Breathtaking paradox!

    To answer your question. The UK is a relatively small market and I understand Outlander has been widely shown beyond even English speaking countries. So being ‘banned’ for ‘political reasons’ shouldn’t impact on Scotland’s ability of service programme makers, I would have thought.

    So short answer for production in general, no.

    However, it’s a weird world where it gets ‘banned’. Perhaps those same ‘powers’ who want it banned, would prefer it be made elsewhere and not expose Scottish history to the wider world!

    So, perhaps, yes.

  343. Ruby says:

    There seem to be a lot of people watching TV!

    Any chance of a list of things worth watching for people without TV?

    Those who have to wait for progs to appear on Catch-up/iplayer etc?

    Anything new being said or is it the SSDD?

    What about Ruthie has she being doing anything outrageous?
    Bucking Bronco?
    Snake charming?
    Bungee jumping?
    Eating worms?

    Her campaign is beginning to look like a celebrity reality show. ie ‘I’m a celebrity get me out of here’

  344. Thepnr says:


    “Don’t forget that the British Establishment does it’s share of covert psy-ops…”

    Of course they do and I think are very good at it, it’s their experience you see and they have been doing it for a while. For me though it really has got out of hand, are they so sacred of their own electorate that they feel the need to “brainwash” the populous with never ending Great British…whatever?

    Truly sad, times definitely have changed, something has gone wrong. It just seemed to slip in there unnoticed, now it seems Orwells 1984 has come to pass. If not quite right now, that’s the direction we’re heading. For sure, no doubt about that.

    I don’t wear a tinfoil hat. No need looking at the media is enough.

    Any reader, if you’ve read Wings for more than a couple of months, I’d guess you know who the 77th Brigade are. If not then you can have a look on their webpage. I thought it worth posting a snippet from their page right here on Wings as I know a lot will never click on links which is at the end of this post.

    Who we are

    In September 2014 the Security Assistance Group was formed and assumed command of the Military Stabilisation and Support Group, the Media Operations Group, 15 Psychological Operations Group and the Security Capacity Building team.

    In July 2015, the 4 individual units above were reshaped and formed the new 5 Columns of 77th Brigade:

    No.1 Column – Planning support focusing on the behavioural analysis of actors, audiences and adversaries

    No.2 Column – Provides the detail synchronisation and delivery of effect

    No.3 Column – Provides highly deployable specialists to other parts of the Armed Forces and other Government organisations

    No.4 Column – Provides professional specialists in Security Capacity Building in Defence

    No.5 Column – Media Operations and Civil Affairs

    I just wonder what this means?

    No.1 Column – Planning support focusing on the behavioural analysis of actors, audiences and adversaries

    Do you think Rev Stu is an actor, we are the audience? Does that make readers of Wings adversaries? Possibly?

  345. Angus MacLeod says:

    Ship yard workers trusted their union leaders – even when obvious trust was misplaced.

    Union leaders trusted labour – or are they one an the same?

    Labour trusted tories – labour saw situation worked to their advantage in Scotland.

    Tories trust no one and always act in their own interests – happy to work with labour knowing they will stab labour in the back at a time of their choosing.

    For a Tory, it is more important to have garden bridge over the Thames than keep promises to ship yard workers in a country that provides them no electoral return. When Tory cabinet ministers tell you it’s more important a pund is spent Croydon than Stathclyde – at leat ask the question why?

    The ship,yard workers have to ask themselves some difficult questions.

    Do they still trust labour and therefor the tories, can they see a difference between the two?

    Do they think they have been taken for fools for decades?

    In an independent Scotland, you may not build the biggest or most complex ships in the world, but at least you will build ships that can be used for the material benefit of Scotland and not to place fat tory arses on the the UN Security Council.

  346. heedtracker says:

    Iceland, population 325,000, jailed their corrupt bankers. They forced their president to resign over having money in a tax haven.

    Is Iceland still on Crash Gordon’s terrorist state list of UKOK baddies? Our noble and honest Treasury froze Icelandic assests held in the UK after the great crash what none of them had the had the faintest idea was coming, apparently but it’s interesting how same shower have no qualms over mass Tory boy tax dodging Panama style. It’s makes you proud to be a Brit. It’s also horrifying to think that a SLabour buffoon like Brown had his finger on the trident trigger. Oh well, we survived and SLab are nearly gone.

  347. Jim Graham says:

    schrodingers cat

    I still contend that the example referenced does show the dangers of splitting the SNP vote because nobody but nobody can predict the outcome of the Constituency vote.

    You obviously see things in a much more certain manner than I do. As far as I am concerned we should not second guess the outcome of either the constituency or the list vote and I will be SNP x 2.

  348. Ruby says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    24 April, 2016 at 1:14 pm

    Ruby says:
    24 April, 2016 at 12:55 pm
    Does anyone think that the BBC not showing ‘Outlander’ ….

    we should save it for indyref2 🙂

    Ruby replies

    That might be what the BBC are planning! 🙂

    Banning Something Makes It Powerful

    The BBC could also be accused of encouraging people to illegally download Outlander!

  349. call me dave says:

    Two jobs for Uni Prof Tomkins if elected.

    This story is inching it’s way to a conclusion.

    Glasgow Councillor quits police row Commonwealth Games project

  350. Capella says:

    @ Thepnr – we know what they do and how ruthless they can be if necessary. This is, after all 24th April, hundredth anniversary of the Easter Rising in Dublin. Irish History is more easily broadcast than Scottish history. They have their own broadcasting companies.

    I recall the assassination of Patrice Lumumba and the quiet understanding that MI6 had been involved in it. Daphne Park, later Baroness Park, admitted it before she died.

    @ Ruby – I’ve been watching “The Man in the High Castle” on Amazon Prime. Excellently depressing portrayal of a full blown fascist state. But set in America in 1962. From a Philip K Dick novel it takes present themes and extends them a little to the logical conclusion. If you’re not paranoid yet, watch it!

  351. liz says:

    Obama’s intervention might backfire.

    The British media have always adored the US and have deluged us with programmes, politics and quiz questions from them.

    But I think the English will feel very annoyed, don’t interfere in our country

    The US will try to destroy any country that wants to get away from their influence.

    China is in a strong position but the South American countries are too close for their own good.

    The Brazilian situation was mentioned but also Venezuela, Chavez seemed to be doing well for his country but then died from cancer.

    And yes, it becomes more and more obvious that the ‘banning’ of Outlander was a political decision – it show us just how little control we have over our own affairs

  352. carjamtic says:

    Ruby @ 12:55

    Where is Grousebeater when you need him,my basic knowledge is of recent filming in Scotland includes.

    Outlander Series……scenes from Skyfall,Star Wars (the force awakens).

    Scarlett Johansson film (in a van ?),Brad Pitt film (in Glasgow Zombie movie ?).

    My understanding is locations were chosen for the backdrops rather than anything else ?

    Sorry more Q than A,of course,The Empire Strikes back – Buchanan Street 🙂

    TV progs.

    Don’t know,except my pal was spitting feathers yesterday,Sportscene did not mention there was a Scottish game live on BBC Alba,there was an English game on BBC 1 at the same time !

  353. Dr Jim says:

    I’ve just sent off an email to Boris Johnson advising him that everyone in Scotland knows the same fear tactics were used on us to win the referendum so given there’s no Scottish referendum due at the moment why doesn’t he tell the electorate in England those facts, if he wants to play just as dirty as Cameron and win Brexit

    As the next referendum in Scotland will win the vote to leave the UK anyway, he has nothing to lose

    Do we think he’ll fall for it

  354. Dr Jim says:

    They’re all asking for SNP second votes WHY? are they going to offer any votes to the SNP, I don’t think so

    Why aren’t they asking Lib Dems or Tories or Labour or Feckin Greens for their help

    It’s taken me 50 years of SNP voting to get this far and they want a lend of my vote, that includes Greens

    Over my rotting corpse!!!

  355. Iain More says:


    So do we have any guesses as to what SLAB will offer in the way of a huge election bribe with its slyly late Manifesto launch?

    I have no doubt the Yoons in the Press and Media will be programming SLAB for the Yoon Election Vow!

  356. cirsium says:

    @heedtracker, 1.31

    It was the Prime Minister of Iceland who was forced to resign. Here is the President commenting on the situation (17 April 2016)

    “Iceland’s President, Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson, explained the feelings of his countrymen: “We were wise enough not to follow the traditional prevailing orthodoxies of the Western financial world in the last 30 years. We introduced currency controls, we let the banks fail, we provided support for the poor, and we didn’t introduce austerity measures like you’re seeing in Europe. Why are the banks considered to be the holy churches of the modern economy? Why are private banks not like airlines and telecommunication companies and allowed to go bankrupt if they have been run in an irresponsible way? The theory that you have to bail out banks is a theory that you allow bankers enjoy for their own profit, their success, and then let ordinary people bear their failure through taxes and austerity. “

  357. Mick DIAMOND says:

    Whatever sly manifesto the scotlandshire liebor branch promise. Without their masters agreement in london, its not worth the paper its written on. Now how is that so difficult for naw/slab voters to get their heads around.

  358. yesindyref2 says:

    Problem with Glasgow is that Patrick Harvie may well win his constituency seat and I think there’s another Green candidate could win theirs.

    In that case on current polling, the Greens would get one list MSP as well from Glasgow – and the SNP one as well.

  359. heedtracker says:

    Why are the banks considered to be the holy churches of the modern economy? Why are private banks not like airlines and telecommunication companies and allowed to go bankrupt if they have been run in an irresponsible way? The theory that you have to bail out banks is a theory that you allow bankers enjoy for their own profit, their success, and then let ordinary people bear their failure through taxes and austerity. “

    Ask this Slabour Baron, now on the board of Morgan Stanley I think it is.

    Baron Darling described our fledgling democracy as “blood and soil!” fascism, then immediately denied it, kind of. Its a toryboy world, we just live in it.

  360. Andrew Mclean says:


    77 Brigade are involved in fighting the likes of Isis, not wings! You are talking about a completely different organisation!! Try looking closer to home!

  361. Joemcg says:

    Andrew the 77th were set up very shortly after the referendum. You would have to be very naive to believe they are not acting against Scottish independence in some capacity. We are a threat to the British establishment. As was proven by the dirty tricks campaign.

  362. Valerie says:

    @Andrew McLean

    If anyone was seriously challenging Da’esh, they would have been sorted by now, either on the web, or on the ground.

    Don’t think for a minute, this site isn’t monitored.

  363. schrodingers cat says:

    re harvey
    i doubt it, but a swath of ashcroft type constituency polls, across marginals, would have helped all of us to make more informed decision.

    better tactics from the oips would have made this more certain, eg not standing in constituencies in 2015 and may etc, I dont think any of the bickering has helped the yes campaign, but party politics will soon be replaced by the renewed indy campaign after may and the eu ref

    reducing the number of unionists msps elected on the list and replacing them with oips was always a “nice to have” but it isnt a deal breaker and isnt worth falling out over.

  364. crazycat says:

    @ yesindyref2

    Problem with Glasgow is that Patrick Harvie may well win his constituency seat and I think there’s another Green candidate could win theirs.

    Patrick Harvie is the only Green standing in a constituency in Glasgow; the other two are in Lothian and Central. If Harvie wins Glasgow Kelvin (I suspect he won’t, but he could let Labour regain it), it’s possible that Zara Kitson will win a list seat, but she is not contesting a constituency (though she did at the Westminster election).

  365. Ken500 says:

    Mark McDonald is an Aberdeen MSP. Does the BNP person have the same name? It might cause confusion.

  366. Andrew Mclean says:

    Joemg & Valerie

    That’s not what I said, of course the site is monitored, that I know for a fact!
    But not by the 77 brigade, it’s remit is a completely different theatre of operations. And a completely different modus operandi.

  367. K1 says:

    Andrew is yoo a agent in the theetur o’ oparashins 😆

  368. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    No, he’s called Dave Macdonald.

  369. old dearie says:

    @Dr Jim
    I’m with you on this one. There is no way I am risking the SNP losing a majority at Holyrood after supporting them for 50+ years. I am losing respect for the Greens anyway with their unrealistic funding for policies. I don’t trust them to put Independence high in their priorities. Ditto Rise.

    After Independence, different matter. SNP don’t get it right all the time but they are the only party whose raison d’etre is Independence. SNP twice for sure to ensure that John Swinney will keep the Treasury pinned down to their fiscal framework.

  370. Thepnr says:

    Andrew who then might be the actors and who then might be the audience? You see when you set up something like the 77th then someone is going to ask questions.

  371. ronnie anderson says:

    Hi 77th brigade ( waves ) ah dont dey salute,s, ah wiz ah Moniter wance hud ah wee blue badge an purple braided blazer tae, hiv yous goat wee blue badges

  372. Robert Peffers says:

    When will Scots wake up to the fact that, “The Establishment”, contains all Unionist Parties, the armed forces, the civil service, most churches and the English education system?

    Not to mention the media, the security service and at least the English police forces and sitting at the head of them all are the Royals and aristocracy and much of big business.

  373. Andrew Mclean says:

    The role of the psych opps, was developed into a unit during the Vietnam war, in any war, especially when the indigenous population are conspiring, or aiding and abetting combat forces.

    Remember hearts and minds, well this is a continuing evolution of that! What your trying to do is show how bad the insurgents are, it’s not SNP bad, but Isis bad, and that involves a whole different organised effort.

    Yes simplistically you can say there is symmetry, but the work of the likes of 77, and their America counterparts is essential. To be quite blunt Isis were winning with the heads off genre, it was time to, actually well past time to engage them in this new arena.

    What you say when you say 77 brigade are conspiring against the independence movement is to allow those who actually are to remain hidden. As I said closer to home, always closer to home.
    Maybe even a friend, a lover, the father of your child. Because they would never do that in jolly old Blighty would they!

  374. John Edgar says:

    Slab do not get it! They did not even see immenent collapse after Glasgow voted Yes! Glasgow Labour council stated rather patronisingly “Peopke make Glasgow” (which they do) and Glasgow voted Yes. Kezia in her blog makes the usual “threats” to her erstwhile better together cronies demanding that the Tories keep their promises. Brown was duped after EVEL, taken for a ride and gas ceased clunking. The Tories treat Slab with contempt; Slab are no longer lobby fodder at Westminster (just like ScotTory and ScotLlibDem). Slab and its former MPs misled their constituents about the Clyde. Slab still endorses the Union while wanting to abandon Trident; yet Lab and Tory unionists will endorse it. Puir wee Kezia, all mixed up. A political dunce. No doubt another Slab leader for out. The shelf life after Johann Lamont’s departure is less than a year. It is regrettable, but inevitable if you pin your hopes on the union.

  375. Lenny Hartley says:

    Re Daesh/isil/Isis et al.
    Would it not be a waste of money for 77th Brigade to be targeting them if we were supporting them in the first place!!

  376. fletch49er says:

    As has been demonstrated the Tories were very careful during the referendum in what they were reported saying/ promising (most was left up to their Labour counterparts to ‘Lead the charge!’. Labour done up like a kipper, and they can’t see it!

  377. fletch49er says:

    Labour are to the Tories after the Indyref like a use Johnny!

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