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2450 pixels of lies

Posted on March 04, 2015 by

The Daily Record is currently faithfully blaring out Labour’s anti-SNP “NHS in crisis” message, as part of the embattled party’s bizarre strategy of fighting a Westminster election solely on policies that are devolved to Holyrood, like health and education.

nhscrisis

But an article on its website today dredges new depths even for the Record.

We’d like you to take a close look at this, folks. Click to enlarge if need be.

huddersfield

Note that the story is clearly categorised “NHS Scotland”. Remember that online readers almost never read all the way to the end of a story. And then observe how long the Record takes to let readers in on the fact that the incident didn’t happen in Scotland at all, but in Huddersfield, West Yorkshire.

Not until paragraph 10 of a 13-paragraph story does the paper reveal that it’s actually got nothing to do with NHS Scotland at all, knowing that by then most of the audience will have wandered off, carrying with them the impression that the incident is part of Scotland’s “NHS crisis”.

Using the metric of the Slate article linked above, it’s even worse – the Record’s piece is 2900 pixels high, and because of a very tall picture it doesn’t start telling the truth until the 2450th pixel, almost 84% of the way down, by which time hardly anyone is still reading.

The Record had the barefaced cheek to falsely accuse this site of attacking an NHS Scotland nurse last week. But if it’s looking for someone who’s REALLY doing the Scottish health service down, what it needs is a Mirror.

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    1. R-type Grunt says:

      Brilliant detective work again Stu. This is getting so frustrating. Is there not something we can do about the Record? I’m beginning to yearn for the return of the Sunday Sport, if only to get some facts-based journalism.

    2. H says:

      Maybe by constantly harping on about devolved issues they know the general election is lost, and all they are doing is planting a seed for the Scottish Elections 2015, with Jim hedging his bets standing for reelection just now case it all does go tits up in may, and he can bale back to Westminster.

    3. Murray McCallum says:

      The Daily Record’s approach suggests they are OK with undermining and falsely criticising the whole of NHS Scotland.

      They draw the line at mentioning individuals, albeit as long as they are not supporters of Scottish independence, e.g. Dr Philippa Whitford.

      Thinking about it … SNP bad is the considered strategy.

    4. annie says:

      All of the stories down the side of the article all related to Scottish matters too so no reason for anyone to think that the main article is not Scottish NHS.

    5. JPJ2 says:

      Obviously they are becoming worried that people in Yorkshire are planning to vote SNP.

      A pity it isn’t like some USA states where “write in” candidates are accepted 🙂

    6. MajorBloodnok says:

      Labour’s only strategy in Scotland is to plausibly give out messages that they think the voters will want to hear. The more informed voters will be confused at the clearly contradictory messages (contracting not only English Labour but also themselves), but Labour is relying entirely on the low information voter to respond to this, knowing fine well that the MSM or the BBC won’t call them out on this at all.

      Labour’s problem is that the people that they actually need to come back are the former Labour voting YES voters, but they have moved on for a reason and are unlikely to be getting to the back of the bus and dutifully voting Labour any time soon.

      So it’s a desperate strategy from Labour – it might get them a few percent back and save a few MPs’ careers, but not enough to turn the tide.

    7. rosa alba says:

      Like I said all along I think this (hand-in-hand w the Record) apparent u-turns, confusion, NHS Crisis, Childcare Crisis, Keepie-Up, now Anti-Austerity stance is opportunistic, and disingenuous.
      It is playing the media.

      It is quick blows that stick and spin that works.

      The Anti-Austerity stance – beyond the no fees and NHS!!!!! – siren calls are designed to snare the wavering voter, traditionally Labout but not engaged enough to read 20 paras of The National, reassure and make the sole delineating issue Independence.
      No one in the MSM media is querying the volte face for votes – nor even the astonishing 75% Lab Candidates anti-Trident – and ssking the role of Milbank, the mentality of careerism and in power for power’s sake, and whether these turnaround policies on the part of (sic) Scottish Labour will disappear of a wall faster than snow in summer… and Scottish Labour again be the sacrificial lamb. “They never had the authority to …”

      I think we need to wise up to Labour’s strategies and not just ridicule their apparent gaffes and idiocies – they are playing an evolved game.

    8. rosa alba says:

      It ate my comment.

      I had para breaks.

    9. Gman says:

      Despicable behaviour, is there absolutely no depths to which they’ll stoop?

      I gather because it’s only put into the Scottish NHS section and not specifically blaming them then there is no legal recourse.

    10. wee_monsieur says:

      There are no undredged depths as far as the Record is concerned.

    11. Calum Craig says:

      I noticed yesterday BBC Scotland doing the same thing: “OH MY GOD A&E ONLY AT 87% OF TARGET”!!!!. Later in same programme “oh, and cancer survival rates have improved…”. And “NHS Wales was worst in the UK.” without mentioning who runs that organisation.

    12. NTerry says:

      Correction number two:

      After 1974, Todmorden has been entirely in Yorkshire, not Lancashire. 😉

    13. call me dave says:

      Just popped next door to my neighbour who I get the DR for everyday. I pick it up for her when I but my National.

      Asked her if she had read the NHS story (as above)?

      “I saw it, guy got a bed in a shower cabinet” she says. 🙂

      I asked to read the story.. same story, mentions very near the end it’s in Lancashire.

      But that’s not in Scotland I point out ! 🙁

      “But it’s still the NHS” she says looking at me as if I was a loonie.

      But the NHS in Scotland is separate I say. “Did you not know”?

      “Oh is it” says she.

      Anyhoo! she’s wiser now and did vote YES in September.

      PS: To be fair it did not say it was the Scottish NHS in the paper I only saw the headline referred to NHS.

      ‘The Champion of Scotland’ Aye right!

    14. Craig B says:

      They’ve now removed the ‘NHS Scotland’ tab but it is still found in Scottish news

    15. Jean-Loup says:

      Looks like they fixed it already. They must have someone keeping an eye on Wings instead of doing proper editorial work…

    16. kev says:

      this papers [Daily Record] shenanigans are getting beyond the joke this should be down right illegal and should be held accountable in a public forum, to say i am incensed is an under statement, we need to start a campaign on streets to highlight the wrong doings of this gutter press.

    17. call me dave says:

      Huddersfield (Yorkshire) Oh dear I’m not going back round to re read the paper. Sorry!

      I’ll be getting a postal vote from the Labour soon, filled out for me too, if my memory gets worse. 🙁

    18. manandboy says:

      Well done Stu, admiration is unbounded. Family hero.

    19. The Man in the Jar says:

      One of my neighbours a nurse in the Glasgow Royal Infirmary and Yes voter told me during the referendum campaign that there was a strong No representation amongst the staff at the GRI. Go figure?

      The message that it is a separate entity and always has been needs to be broadcast. Apparently even folk that work there dont understand the difference. A name change to SNHS would go a long way.

    20. Chic McGregor says:

      Shouldn’t that be ‘soar again’?

    21. Proud Cybernat says:

      The problem SLAB and its MSM have is that those former Labour voters who voted YES during the Ref. campaign did so by accessing online sources for information and, in so doing, realised the lies being fed to them by MSM & the BBC.

      Those former Labour voters won’t be fooled or lied to again and will STILL be seeking the truth of the matter from sites like Wings, Bella, NewsNet etc. The MSM & BBC may win back a couple of percent of those folks (which is actually doubtful – once you enter into the light, you don’t want to go back to the dark) but it won’t be anywhere near enough to halt the disaster facing Labour and their chums in May.

      The peoples’ eyes have been opened. The only way the Triumvarite can get things back to the way it suits them is to shut down the internet and that is simply never going to happen. Their days are numbered.

      Tick, tock Labour.

      Tick tock BBC.

      Tick, tock Daily Redcoat.

    22. Fiona says:

      I think it is queer that there is this sustained attack on the NHS, if I try to imagine it is part of an electoral strategy. I cannot at all see how that is supposed to work.

      I get that it may be the aim is to say that the Scottish NHS is crap and to blame the SNP. But then I notice that there is a similar sustained attack on the NHS in England. There is also a sustained attack on the NHS in Wales.

      What these have in common is that they are popular public services. What the mainstream political parties have in common is shares in private health providers, and a policy of extending the private sector’s participation in health care, and therefore a bigger slice of the enormous budget going to those private companies. We used to call that a conflict of interest and it was a bad thing: now it is experience of life outside the Westminster bubble and it is a good thing.

      While I am committed to Scottish independence, and it is useful to show the more transparent lies in the way the OP does, I think it is a mistake to see everything through that prism at all times

      The sustained attack on the very idea of a public sector has been a feature of neoliberal policy from the outset. They started with easy targets, such as social work and the railways. Once they had honed the technique they moved on to services which were more valued such as education. And now they are targeting the biggest prize and the one most difficult to win: for the NHS is not only valued by the people, it is a source of pride. That is what they aim to undermine by any and all means.

      Make no mistake, this is a bigger issue than electoral advantage (which is in play as well, I accept): we should not forget that these are Westminster lackeys and they genuinely do focus on the position in the whole of the UK. They wish to privatise the health service and the only Scottish dimension is the need to demonstrate that there is no alternative to that agenda: so the NHS in Scotland cannot be doing a good job. The audience is mainly in rUK. Heaven forfend they learn that things are better in Scotland because of the different political choices made here: for that would suggest there is an alternative.

      Fortunately for them, the rUK electorate’s response to better provision tends to be “that is not fair: take it off them”, rather than “that is good: let’s have some of that”. But they cannot be sure that will always be true, so it is better to claim that is no different, or it is worse.

    23. mogabee says:

      What’s the problem?

      Labour says Bettertogether. It’s the yuk init?

      Anyway, SNP BAD BAD BAD….

    24. Calum Craig says:

      It’s working though unfortunately (with Record readers that is):

    25. Macart says:

      OFFS, can’t they change the Record?

      Badumtish 🙂

    26. David McCann says:

      I’m sure Eleanor Bradford our BBC health correspondent will expose this bit of scaremongering, that is, unless she actually uses the image to illustrate her own report.

    27. ronnie anderson says:

      Oh Mirror Mirror on the wall whats the best read of them all

      The Hacking Charge Sheet of the Mirror.

    28. Dr Jim says:

      Loonies to the left of us loonies to the right of us
      But the depths to which they plummet with this kind of
      Daily BBC Labour Record Filth is Vile
      When you choose to go down this tactical road of lying bile
      You had better be extremely confident of winning because when you’re found out, which they are being, bit by bit, you lose very badly never again to hold any kind of trust from even the people whom you think may support you
      Do it and get caught
      You’re Done

    29. BrianW says:

      Sheesh.. 1st it was Labour Stories under the Conservatives Category (chortle). Now it’s NHS England Stories under the NHS Scotland Banner for added Scare Mongering (does Eleanor Bradford write for them under a nom de plume?)

      What next “Tory Austerity & Bedroom Tax” under the Lifestyle Category? Can’t wait.

    30. Kevin evans says:

      The guy has piles – toilets probably the best place for him

    31. a2 says:

      Not only that, but anyone skiff reading all the way to the end will easily take “Lancashire” for “Lanarkshire”, who knows where Todmordon is? Thus leaving only “Huddersfield” as the actual pointer to where this is. Sneaks!

      I have to say though the article shoots itself in the foot when it points out he had an enema and had to use the loo repeatedly thereby suggesting he had to be in the toilet all the time anyway.

    32. Luigi says:

      I get the impression that the DR and ourselves are heading for yet another showdown. It’s only a matter of time before Murray shoots himself in the Foote again.

    33. Iain says:

      Well, if we didn’t know before, the DR is part of a company which employs people with little integrity:
      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/03/phone-hacking-widespread-mirror-titles-court-told

    34. D.G. says:

      High time the Scottish Government took some action against this newspaper.

      They are deceiving the Scottish public, and the public should be protected from political propaganda disguised as a news paper.

    35. a2 says:

      And who in there right mind want’s to have their photo in the paper advertising their hemorrhoid surgery?

    36. Wee Isa says:

      The first thing you learn on the first day of journalism training is that the first two paragraphs of any news article should contain; Who, What, Where, When and Why. Ideally in the first line if possible.

      The reason being that most people fail to read past the 5th or 6th line. As students we were told to think of it like a pyramid, with the key facts at the top and the further detail (or padding) towards the bottom.

      This dreadful article waits until paragraph 9 to give the most important information!

      Despite gaining an excellent degree in journalism, and having a good deal of work experience I was unable to find paid work in the field. That THIS is the standard of writer that is in employment simultaneously makes me want to weep and makes me feel intensely relieved that I am no longer a part of Scottish journalism. I would be horrified to be such a blatant part of Scottish Labour’s political propaganda machine.

      Is the Scottish NHS perfect? No. Is it doing a hundred times better under Scottish government rule than the English NHS is under coalition rule? Yes.

      Not for the first time this year, the Daily Record should feel truly ashamed. They are a disgrace to journalism.

    37. a2 says:

      I have no Idea where that apostrophe came from.

    38. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      “what it needs is a Mirror.”

      What the Record’s owner Trinity Mirror are going to need are far better Lawyers and a far bigger ‘pot’ for phone hacking.

      Chair of Ipso funding body should quit over Trinity Mirror, says Hacked Off http://trib.al/R9ijjaQ

      News International ended up paying some £350 million (and counting) while Trinity has reportedly put some £30 million aside.

      News Service ?@RealTimeHack 2h2 hours ago

      Trinity Mirror’s Journalists Hacked Voice Mails on Large Scale, Lawyer Tells Wall Street Journal http://ift.tt/1FVMe4x

      They’re going to need far more than £30 million and unlike Murdoch Trinity don’t have a cash-cow TV station and massive international holdings to draw from. Expect to see the Record and Mirror getting hit in the coming months and years with huge staff ‘downsizings’ disguised as a greater focus on digital editions.

    39. a2 says:

      “their” sorry spellik police I’m in a rush.

    40. Now's the Hour says:

      The Redcoat just does not get that its diet of lies, distortion and innuendo have been well and truly rumbled. So why does it persist? Probably for the same reason that Hitler believed the war was still being won right at the end, and diehard Communists believed that Communism could be saved in ’89/90. Pathetic, really.

    41. Will Podmore says:

      What’s ‘bizarre’ about a strategy of fighting a Westminster general election on policies that are devolved to Holyrood, like health and education? The Labour Party is fighting against the SNP and the SNP is responsible for Scotland’s health and education policies. And the SNP has cut teacher numbers, lecturer numbers and hospital beds – aren’t we supposed to notice this?

    42. Compo says:

      @Fiona
      A similar thought occurred to me too. There is constant NHS bashing on Radio 4, aimed at England and Wales. So its not just up here. When listening to the radio, I now think constantly ‘why are they telling me this?’ because this is not really the most burning issue in the world today is it?

      Where this is going might be, ‘how can we fix this?’ then ‘hey maybe privatisation is the answer’

      What’s interesting about this is, it points to not just a SLAB election strategy channelled through BBC Scotland and the Record, but something bigger from a UK coordinating intelligence channelled through the whole media. God I’m starting to sound paranoid 🙂

    43. Jim Thomson says:

      @Dr Jim 2:20pm

      Damn you sir – another ear worm – Stealers Wheel “Stuck in the middle with you”

    44. Jim Thomson says:

      @Dr Jim
      and here’s the annoyance …
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DohRa9lsx0Q

    45. a2 says:

      “innuendo have been well and truly rumbled. So why does it persist? ”

      Because it’s not been rumbled by the folk who buy it. We, I’m afraid, are in the minority by paying attention.

    46. HandandShrimp says:

      An honest newspaper would make it clear from the first sentence the context and purpose of the story.

      A dishonest newspaper would not.

      I wonder which the Record is?

    47. Stoker says:

      This post i’m addressing to our members who have a background in the newspaper industry, or those of you who may know the score.

      Would it be worth approaching our local shops to ask them to withdraw all DR orders, or are newsagents under some form of obligation to sell them.

      I think we might get some support for this approach, especially if we point out what the DR is doing, undermining the great efforts of all OUR SCOTTISH NHS staff.

      Any feedback on this idea would be very much appreciated.

    48. Cag-does-thinking says:

      Luckily the Sun seems to have run out of patience with lucky Jim as they have a bit of a rant about him on their leader column today.

      O/T something I have been banging on about for some time finally hits the media about that economic miracle that is London. Ohh dear…..

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-property-boom-built-on-dirty-money-10083527.html

    49. Capella says:

      I would suggest another complaint to IPSO but read the link from Iain Gray’s Subway Lament. It’s funded by a Mirror legal adviser!:

      “Paul Vickers was the legal director of Trinity Mirror for all the years that the industrial-scale hacking has now been admitted to have taken place across all three of its national titles.”

      Vickers spent 22 years at Trinity Mirror, publisher of the Daily and Sunday Mirror and the People, before he departed last month. He had acted as company secretary and group legal director.

      Previously Vickers had told the culture, media and sport committee in 2013 that the company had done “huge investigations” and “not found any proof that phone hacking took place”.

      After helping to set up Ipso after the Leveson inquiry into industry malpractice. He now chairs the Regulatory Funding Company, which raises funds from the newspaper and magazine industry to pay for the industry regulator.

      In evidence to the House of Commons select committee on press regulation last month, Sir Alan Moses denied that Ipso’s credibility had been undermined by the presence of Vickers on the key committee.”

    50. Luigi says:

      Will Podmore says:

      4 March, 2015 at 2:41 pm

      Are you really so confused, or are you using the traditional red tory tactic of trying to confuse others?

    51. Robert Louis says:

      Just when you thought surely the Record cannot get any more duplicitous, they go and do this. Un – freaking – believable.

      The sad part is, that although the NHS in Scotland is performing well, there will always be things that could be done better, but writing about that would involve two things that cannot be found within the Daily Record;

      1. Sentient thought

      2. The ability to construct a truthful sentence.

    52. R4 says:

      As the winter recedes and hopefully the better weather comes, surely the NHS targets will be met.

      What will BBC, STV, and MSM bombard us with then?

    53. Black Douglas says:

      Will Podmore says:
      4 March, 2015 at 2:41 pm

      “the SNP has cut teacher numbers, lecturer numbers and hospital beds – aren’t we supposed to notice this?”

      No Podmore we have not noticed this becuase that is not the case. Have you learned anything over the past year?

      Just because you say so does not make it a fact, please provide the stats to back up your claims or are you taking a leaf out of Murphy’s book?

      Have a nice day 👿

    54. Helena Brown says:

      Dear Labour Party, if you can actually remember as far back as 1998, you know when you were in power in Westminster and ran Scotland’s NHS from there, you know before the resumption of the Scottish Parliament, oh sorry Executive.
      Well I was discovered to have a Malignant Melanoma, one which took 10 months to diagnosed. Well I was a very lucky person, because it wasn’t deep and it hadn’t spread. I had to be fitted in, funnily enough to the same sort of ward that poor old Darren should have been in down in Huddersfield because I was meant to be in the ward for Breast Cancer, not that I had that. Well my operation went ahead and thanks to all the people in Scotland’s NHS I am here to tell about it.
      So I would be grateful if you would leave them well alone, because despite you I am here and am seen well within the two week period if I see a problem and that is no mean feat in Scotland with our problems with skin cancer.
      I thin most of us realise this problem with NHS England is one which is designed that the good people of England get fed up and just say go ahead and privatise it, well we haven’t got that problem and we will never accept it, unless it is forced by the back door.

    55. Mike says:

      What was their tagline again? ‘Real Scots Read the Record’

      This disgraceful rag of a paper should be treated in the same manner in which Liverpool treats ‘The Sun’ – simply boycott it. There is no excuse nowadays to read something that is geared to a mental reading age of 10 (I’m perhaps being generous here) when there are so many other (and cheaper) ways to obtain news.

    56. Big Jock says:

      Yes and if the Record use the excuse they were just talking about the whole NHS. Why would they not have said :”One patient in England had to use a toilet”. The intention is to mislead and smear the SNHS. This should go to the press complaints.

      In any case why would a so called Scottish paper be commenting on an English case. The NHS in Scotland is independent. The crisis would be in Scotland or England but not the UK as that doesn’t exist in health terms.

      We all know their game but who is going to stop them with this bullshit!

    57. call me dave says:

      Herald:
      During PMQs

      David Cameron has challenged Labour to rule out a “grubby” coalition deal with the Scottish National Party (SNP) amid concerns about the renewal of the Trident nuclear deterrent.

      The two Eds (are better than one?) are consulting Murphy and Gordon before answering this question.

      They’ll all be wanting an NHS ‘bed come toilet suite’ as their muscles really begin to flinch as no good news seems to be forthcoming for any of the unionists.

      PS:
      Scot Goes Pop informs us the Lib/Dems have dropped down to 5% same as the Greens and the SNP in the latest UK pollinh.

      Handy link for the GE 2015: prospective candidates.

      http://ukgeneralelection2015.blogspot.co.uk/p/candidate-selections-for-2015-general.html

    58. Dan Huil says:

      The Daily Record is anti-Scottish. Doing down Scotland is its sole purpose.

    59. What a shower of filthy, lying bastards. I can’t wait to go and dance on the grave of that budgie cage liner when it finally goes under.

    60. Capella says:

      I agree that the constant attack on the NHS is aimed at privatisation. Great chunks of the English NHS is already private and there are real problems emerging in the loss of continuity.

      Although the Scottish NHS has always been independent, there must have been some influence from Westminster during the Thatcher period when an “internal market” was created. I can remember when hospital entrances began to resemble petrol station forecourts with R.S McColl shops, Gift shops, Flower Shops, Ladies Fashion etc and a ATM all appearing as quickly as the WRI voluntary creche and patient tea service disappeared. (Aberdeen Royal Infirmary)

      Managers were appointed who had no background in health. Cleaning and catering services had to be outsourced to reduce costs. Hospital Acquired Infections soared. Many people died of MRSI and C Difficile.

      Happily, in the past few years those problems in the SNHS have reduced. The SNP and Nicola’s spell as Health Minister may be the reason. But this is a big area for journalist investigation. Not something the Record is capable of.

    61. Onwards says:

      @The Man in the Jar says:


      The message that it is a separate entity and always has been needs to be broadcast. Apparently even folk that work there dont understand the difference. A name change to SNHS would go a long way.

      I agree 100%.

      During the referendum campaign, many people thought that the Scottish NHS was a branch of the UK NHS.

      The name should be changed to SHS, or something like ‘Health Scotland’.

      Fighting Westminster elections using the NHS in Scotland as the main campaigning ground just increases the confusion.

      Everyone is naturally going to think it is funded by Westminster.

    62. Robert Louis says:

      O/T,

      I see Andrew Neil and his BBC phalanx of Westminster greasy pole climbers on ‘The daily politics’, all had a right good laugh at James Dornan and Alex Salmond of the SNP today.

      Asked on to the programme to discuss the forthcoming unionjackery of Scottish buildings, he was shown the image of Salmond with his Saltire at Wimbledon, cue much laughing in studio. James Dornan held his own, but yet again it showed in full view, for those still unsure, the sneering contempt which those in London and the BBC have for Scotland and our flag.

    63. Harry McAye says:

      Vile rag.

      From a supposedly “vile cybernat”!

    64. Derick fae Yell says:

      Onwards. From memory, the previously entitled Scottish Health Service had it’s name changed to NHS Scotland in the 1980s by Michael Forsyth – to make it seem more ‘British’

    65. R-type Grunt says:

      I used to be of the opinion that Labour owned the news media but now I’m of the opinion that the news media own Labour.

      It’s the BBC who are setting up all Labour’s attack lines. I guess only the BBC have the resources to do that, funded, of course, by us.

      In other news, North Lanarkshire Schools are branding all Palestinians as terrorists. I’ll link to the BBC but of course it wasn’t they who broke the story. It’s interesting to note the use of the word ‘seperatist’. I wonder if this material was in use prior to the independence referendum…

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-31727699

    66. Lesley-Anne says:

      Well what do you know … our *ahem* beloved *cough* newspaper spouting LIES about the inferred SCOTTISH N.H.S. … AGAIN! *YAWN*

      I know this is Wednesday and Tuesday is BBC (DIS)Reoprting Scotland’s day for LYING about the Scottish N.H.S. but I just wonder if this story will be top billing at half past six tonight. 😉

      I know that to be a journalist you need certain qualities like:

      1. intelligence

      2. Respect for others

      3. knowledge of the TRUTH

      4. integrity

      5. ability to recognise right from wrong

      Somehow I have the feeling that our beloved newspaper forces its journalists to undergo a series of operations to have all these qualities REMOVED before allowing them to write anything for the *ahem* paper. 😉

    67. Richardinho says:

      I guess that Stu should be grateful to the Daily Record. Without it he’d have a lot more difficulty finding material to fill this blog!

    68. Scotspine says:

      Podmore – Are you completely deluded? Your assertion that SNP Govt has cut teacher numbers is wrong – period! Thats down to Councils.

      Oh, and maybe if we didn’t have to contribute to the obscenity of a renewed Trident or Infrastructure Projects in England, we might have more money to fund OUR NHS.

    69. frogesque says:

      Industrial monstering of the NHS (Englandshire) by MGN

      Speaking of ‘industrial scale’, is anyone following the MGN phone hacking trial?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31712894

      Counsel David Sherborne said the hacking was on an industrial scale and far larger than that which took place at the News of the World.

      He said that journalists at the Daily Mirror, the Sunday Mirror and the People hacked phones on a daily basis.

      Now, call me a cynic but I wonder how much (if any) content and indeed the endemic practices of that slime pit made its way Northwards to Central Quay, Glasgow where the D. R’s pages seem to be remarkably quiet on the subject.

    70. manandboy says:

      Condensed – what is Labour attempting in Scotland for GE15?

      Almost the entire backroom team of Better Together,
      is the backroom team of The Scottish Branch Labour for GE15.

      They are using the same tactics this year as they used last year.

      It’s called Fear and Smear.

      Let’s cut to Fear – for it is the biggy in GE15.

      Q. Why is the NHS with it’s alleged endless crisis inducing faults,
      constantly on the BBC and in the Record.

      A. It is to make the Scottish population afraid.
      It is to make people think that if they need the NHS,
      for example, to go to A&E or an Outpatients Clinic,
      are they going to suffer through underfunding, understaffing
      and bad management.

      Are they going to get poorly and inadequately
      and incompetently treated,
      in the way being portrayed
      by the BBC and the Daily Record.

      But more.

      The BBC & the DR are attempting to associate this fear,
      subconsciously, with the SNP.
      So that people will think – the reason for me being afraid
      of going to hospital is the SNP.
      It’s the SNP I need to be afraid of.
      They’re the cause of all my health fears.

      Labour’s backroom team, through their mouthpieces,
      the BBC and the Daily Record,
      are trying to destroy the confidence
      which the Scottish electorate have in the SNP Gov
      as competent managers of all things Scottish
      and in particular the NHS.

      The NHS is targetted by Labour because most people use it,
      especially the politically critical group, the elderly.
      Because health is very important to everyone.
      People are afraid of pain and suffering and any threat to life,
      and it is the job of the NHS to take care of all that,
      and if the NHS can’t do it’s job,
      then woe betide those responsible.

      Labour are trying to create that whole situation
      BASED ON NOTHING BUT LIES.
      Cue the BBC and the Daily Record.

      Cue the gullible, naive, Labour voting, readership of the DR.

      But, far, far, more seriously, CUE the gullible, naive,
      trusting MILLIONS of Scots who watch BBC TV,
      EVERY DAY IN LIFE.

      Drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip,
      drip-fed lies, day after day, month after month,
      until their brains are saturated with Labour Lies.

      I’m sure the SNP and the major Independence groups
      have a strategy to counteract Labour’s drip drip drip,
      but they haven’t told me about it.

      If anyone thinks that GE15 is going to be
      an overwhelming success story for the SNP.

      Think again. I thought so too in IndyRef.

      But it was only wishful thinking
      as I had totally overlooked the power
      of Unionist controlled TV
      in the lives of millions of voters.

    71. Stoker says:

      Dave Beveridge says:
      “What a shower of filthy, lying bastards. I can’t wait to go and dance on the grave of that budgie cage liner when it finally goes under.”

      Cruelty to animals is unacceptable under any circumstances.
      Change your shite catcher or expect a visit from the SSPCA.
      🙂

      https://archive.today/86O9C

    72. Macart says:

      Teacher numbers cut?

      “All 32 councils in Scotland have now agreed not to cut teacher numbers.

      First Minister Nicola Sturgeon made the announcement during First Minister’s Questions at Holyrood.

      One council, understood to be Shetland, had not reached a deal with the government before the official deadline last week. Many non-SNP councils felt they had no real choice but to accept.

      The issue led to the most serious dispute between some councils and central government since devolution.

      The government was offering councils £51m to maintain teacher numbers.”

      I’d post a link but I don’t have the archive thingy.

    73. Clootie says:

      Robert Louis says:
      4 March, 2015 at 3:25 pm

      The worst part was when James Dornan stated that he thought he was being interviewed on the current story not history (Flag waving/Andy Murray)…Andrew Neil sneered and said “well you thought wrong”

    74. Lesley-Anne says:

      Richardinho says:

      I guess that Stu should be grateful to the Daily Record. Without it he’d have a lot more difficulty finding material to fill this blog!

      Thing is Richardinho as IGSL mentioned above in relation to phone hacking:

      News International ended up paying some £350 million (and counting) while Trinity has reportedly put some £30 million aside.

      As most people are aware the Daily Record is part of the Mirror group. So does anyone believe that following the guilty verdict against the Mirror group they will only have to pay £30 million damages etc?

      In my view the Mirror was AS guilty as the NotW was. So if News International has had to pay out around £350 Million and CLOSE NotW surely the Mirror group MUST be looking at similar consequences. In such a situation the only question that arises is will the Mirror group close the Mirror newspaper OR, as I and others on here may suspect, will they close another title … Daily Record closing down sale anybody? 😀

    75. Something i found out about bed blocking at my local SNP branch meeting last night,it has nothing to do with the Scottish Government and everything to do with your local Council.
      As an SNP councillor bought up last night,he has heard of someone being in hospital 20 weeks(imagine!)because our wonderful Tory/labour council have cut care for the elderly in Eastlothian.
      So bed blocking,which is high in Glasgow too i believe,is down to cuts in care services and is squarely due to your local council!

    76. Lesley-Anne says:

      Will Podmore says:

      What’s ‘bizarre’ about a strategy of fighting a Westminster general election on policies that are devolved to Holyrood, like health and education? The Labour Party is fighting against the SNP and the SNP is responsible for Scotland’s health and education policies. And the SNP has cut teacher numbers, lecturer numbers and hospital beds – aren’t we supposed to notice this?

      YOU at the back there STAY AWAKE!

      Do keep up old boy. If you are going to defend Labour like this then please for the sake of your sanity check the facts FIRST!

      I hate to see people being pulled up time and time and time again for NOT checking the facts FIRST. 😛

      For your information I am the only person who can get away with not checking out the facts first … but I have an excuse … I am this site’s resident Village Idiot! 😀

    77. Macart says:

      @ Lesley-Anne

      “I am this site’s resident Village Idiot!”

      I still say you won that vote only because of your damn stylish hat. 🙂

    78. MajorBloodnok says:

      When I forget something or get a bit confused I don’t say “I’m having a senior moment!” I say “Ooh, I’ve had a Will Podmore moment!”

      I can’t remember why so don’t ask me.

    79. BusterGonad says:

      No way they’re squeezing me in there!

    80. Jim Thomson says:

      @Macart

      the archive thingy

      First make sure you can see your browser toolbar where you put your shortcuts.

      Then, go to https://archive.today/ and you’ll see a wee grey button near the top of the page. Simply drag that onto your shortcuts toolbar and … hey presto … you have a wee button that lets you archive stuff.

      When the archive is created though, remember to save the URL somewhere if you need it in future.

      Hope that helps

    81. Onwards says:

      Derick fae Yell says:

      “Onwards. From memory, the previously entitled Scottish Health Service had it’s name changed to NHS Scotland in the 1980s by Michael Forsyth – to make it seem more ‘British’”

      I wasn’t aware of that.

      I think there is a very good case for a name change, especially in light of current events.

      The UK Government is issuing leaflets to households in Scotland, as part of a public information campaign, explaining the plans for further devolution.

      Their reasoning comes from the Smith Commission who noted the “relatively weak understanding of the current devolution settlement and the added challenge which would therefore arise from enhanced powers.”

      Further plans for ‘UK Government Funded’ branding on certain projects, again uses the reasoning that taxpayers should know where their money goes.

      So there is already an acknowledgement of public confusion, and the need for clarity.

      Now we see the current confusion being exploited for electioneering purposes.

      It should be clear what exactly is devolved, and what exactly the Scottish Government is responsible for and what Westminster MP’s are responsible for.

      Especially when it comes to the NHS – one of the biggest areas of the Scottish Budget.

      It seems like a name change is the easiest way to achieve long-term clarity.

    82. Lesley-Anne says:

      Macart says:

      @ Lesley-Anne

      “I am this site’s resident Village Idiot!”

      I still say you won that vote only because of your damn stylish hat. 🙂

      Well I sure as hell didn’t wear it to keep my head warm that’s for sure Macart … oh wait a minute maybe I did! 😀

    83. Clootie says:

      MajorBloodnok says:
      4 March, 2015 at 4:07 pm

      …leave the trolls alone.They cannot handle wit being only half prepared.

    84. Karmanaut says:

      @manandboy
      I agree with much of what you say, but I’m not as convinced that their fear and smear tactics will work.

      Remember, these are the people who’s campaign turned a massive lead for No into a slender one. They almost lost what many thought wasn’t possible to lose.

      I’m quite pleased they’re now backing Labour, because they are not competent at their jobs. Look at everything that’s happened to Labour since they came on board. Every single day is another ludicrous mistake or exposed lie, which has done nothing to dent the SNP lead.

      Labour look like imbeciles. The only way they can win votes is by lying.

      A lead like the one the SNP have would normally drop a bit before the election as the MSM run their usual “SNP Lead Collapses” headlines to try to turn people away. But voters are far more clued in nowadays. SNP voters certainly are.

    85. HandandShrimp says:

      What’s ‘bizarre’ about a strategy of fighting a Westminster general election on policies that are devolved to Holyrood, like health and education? The Labour Party is fighting against the SNP and the SNP is responsible for Scotland’s health and education policies. And the SNP has cut teacher numbers, lecturer numbers and hospital beds – aren’t we supposed to notice this?

      Will

      It is bizarre because it is devolved. It does not matter who is elected in May, Holyrood manage Health. This was something Brown was at pains to point out in September so if it applied then it applies now. What the record is trying to do is smear the SNP Government and bolster Labour. If the Record simply wanted to highlight how drastic things were in the English NHS under the Tories they could have done so a lot more effectively. Admittedly the journalism at the Record is 5th rate so arguably it wasn’t deliberate but I doubt it.

      As to “we”. We who live here in Scotland are aware of the SNP, they have been in power for 8 years. They are still popular. You might want to reflect on that and consider whether the information you have is as accurate as you think it is.

    86. Macart says:

      Cheers Jim.

    87. lumilumi says:

      Like I said in the previous thread:

      The MSM in Scotland are a threat to democracy. Even more than the MSM in the whole of the UK, and that’s bad enough.

      How did it get to this?

      When did the press stop holding the powers that be to account and start cozying up all better together, fuck the people.

      The Daily Record is just unbelievable. They’re a propaganda sheet for Labour, North British accountig unit, doing their utmost to thwart truth and democracy. They’re a travesty of “the fourth estate”, they’re a travesty of free speech, a travesty of journalistic integrity… Just a travesty.

      I wonder how the journalists still having a job with the Daily Record feel. Having to sacrifice your integrity and professional standards just to keep your job. Maybe some are quite happy in their blinkered tribalism but I suspect many feel uncomfortable but have mortgages to pay and…

      The Scotsman and others have also shed many good, professional journalists in the past few years due to plummeting sales.

      Print media is down everywhere in the western world (due to online competition) but it seems to me that the fall is particularly pronounced in Scotland. Can’t the publishers connect the dots, or are they just secretly propped up by the UK government?

      All together now: SNP baaaad! SNP baaad! SNP baad!

      The funny thing is that many Scots have seen SNP governance in action since 2007 and rather like it. Do you believe the papers or what you see and experience yourself?

      People tend to believe their own personal experience, which leaves the papers and BBC and Labour (North Brithish accounting unit) and other Westminster parties looking hopelessly out of touch.

      Are we reaching a tipping point when enough people don’t believe the brainwashing from the BBC and other MSM?

      WoS and other alternative media help but in the end it’s down to individuals to think it through and when it “clicks”, there’s no going back.

    88. orri says:

      Think we’re in serious danger of losing the election or the chance of a coalition if we constantly complain about devolved matters being discussed.

      As of now SNP strategy is that rUK policy on devolved issues have a knock on effect on the Scottish budget.

      The problem here is that this particular story is wrongly being palmed of as somehow to do with NHS Scotland.

      IF Labour, or their mouthpiece’s, opinion is that the failings of the NHS in England are somehow of importance to the scot’s electorate then they really can’t complain if our elected representatives choose to help a minority Labour government tackle the issue.

      On the other hand I agree that the NHS is being deliberately portrayed as not fit for purpose in the rUK in order to generate a demand for it’s privitisation by the backdoor.

    89. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Will Podmore.

      You typed,
      “The Labour Party is fighting against the SNP”

      And therein lies Labour Scotlandshire’s fatal flaw. Instead of fighting the election and explaining to the Scottish electorate what they are FOR, all we get from them is attacks against the SNP, with the collusion of the MSM and BBC Scotland.

      Scots are seeing through their desperation, hence their dismal showing in all the opinion polls, over recent months.

    90. Alan McHarg says:

      Name and shame the paper /journalist on posters/flyers, with their link to their stories/lies. Let their readership know what their preferred rag is doing!

    91. galamcennalath says:

      The SNP made a huge mistake. When they rebranded the ‘Executive’ to ‘Government’, a few months after that they should have begun branding NHS Scotland as Scottish HS, or whatever.

      Keeping the UK wide NHS branding was a problem just waiting to bite. It was an Achilles Heel just waiting to be exploited.

      If this had been done, it might have been worth a few percent in the referendum, perhaps.

      And now, the widespread confusion among voters about the true status of our health service is being used against It, and in turn against Scotland.

      The SNP have achieved a lot, on this, they got it wrong.

      It is too late for the GE. After May, the Scottish Government should begin the rebranding before the 2016 Holyrood vote.

    92. Dr Jim says:

      Local Councils are managers of local services and they work for us as does the Scottish Government so as our Elected Government it is encumbent upon them to make sure Councils carry out their duty to us
      If they fail in this respect the Government invariably shoulders the blame so to me it’s Simples
      Failing Councils finance should be withdrawn until they comply with their obligations
      Failing compliance they should be sacked and teams put in to do the job properly
      The sooner Councils are taught a lesson in not playing politics with services the better
      Murphy and his Labour Council cronies need removing no more wee sweet jobs for the boys for life
      Pay for your own Junkets with your own money
      Ooh! i was annoyed there!!!!

    93. Famous15 says:

      I believe that in Scotland you need no formality for a name change so from now on I will refer to the Scottish Health Service for what had been hitherto Brittishified to NHS Scotland.

      Suggest y’all do the same as in “I had a brilliant knee op by the Scottish Health Service but must admit that lassie Eleanor Bradford BBC had me terrified it would all go wrong”

    94. liz says:

      @Clootie – this is not new for Andra.

      When Jeane Freeman was asked onto his prog she was told she was to be asked the reasons why Labour voters were voting Yes.

      Well of course it turned out to be an interrogation on possible NHS privatisation and only ‘AS could prevent that’.

      Jeanne F being a smart, articulate, well informed person wiped the floor with AN.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23m6CukRUGM

    95. Will Podmore says:

      Under the SNP, teacher numbers were cut from 52,446 in 2007 to 48,452 in 2014. See Government figures. There were 238,805 Scottish college students in the academic year 2012-13, down from 347,336 in 2009-10. College teaching posts were cut from 20,686 to 13,761. The SNP’s unnecessary education reforms, not ‘Westminster’ imposed these cuts.
      Scottish hospitals have got rid of beds faster than almost anywhere else in the western world. In 2007, there were 27,735 staffed beds available in Scotland. By 2011, there were just 24,760. This is what happens when “nationalism appears to be replacing class as the leading edge of progressive politics in Scotland.”

    96. Jim Thomson says:

      Far enough down now to be safe with an O/T 🙂

      I know a few of you have expressed worries about “yet another crowd funding platform” but please persevere with this one for Philippa Whitford (her video on NHS went viral thanks in no small part to Wings http://wingsoverscotland.com/you-should-watch-this-now/ )

      She’s just over halfway to her target and still needs donations. If you like a challenge here’s the link:

      http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/dr-philippa-whitford-campaign-fund/

      Thanks in anticipation

    97. MajorBloodnok says:

      I think even Will Podmore is having a “Will Podmore moment”.

    98. William Gordon says:

      If I was in hospital like this guy I would be delighted to be isolated in a toilet with my bed two feet away from my a*** , really what’s all this about, utter sh***

    99. Fiona says:

      @ Dr Jim

      I do not agree, I am sorry to say

      It is true that councils work for us. It is not true that they work for the Scottish government, however. Neither is it true that they work for Westminster

      What is happening here is a long standing and fairly transparent con. Local government responsibilities are enshrined in law, which places obligations on them to provide certain services. Local government funding is not enshrined in those same laws, though: none of them have enough money to meet those obligations.

      Every council has a budget and from that budget they have to fund services. In principle the spending decisions are made in line with local priorities within the constraints of what they are obliged to provide. In practice they do decide what to prioritise. There is no council anywhere in the UK which meets all of its legal obligations because none of them have enough money to do that. Very little of the money to pay for services comes from direct (council) tax.

      Westminster decides the block grant for Scotland and in turn the Scottish government decides the grants for local government. Since the Scottish block grant ensures that funding will follow decisions made in england it is inevitable that the funding for local councils will do likewise.

      Westminster routinely fails to provide sufficient money for local councils and that results in councils being held responsible for failures they can do nothing about. Cuts to local government funding are applied without reference to the cost of their obligations, and Westminster washes its hands of the matter thereafter. It is about escaping responsibility and about passing the buck. As with devolved issues people tend not to understand how this interacts but cuts to public spending have been enormous in this area. It is estimated that the budget will have fallen by 37% since 2010 by 2016

      You say: If they fail in this respect the Government invariably shoulders the blame so to me it’s Simples

      It seems simple to me too: just the opposite of what you describe. When government fails to provide the funding the local council invariably shoulders the blame. And there is always a get out: whichever failing is criticised, Westminster can always point to a council which does deliver that particular service: and that is because priorities differ and someone somewhere will have made that particular service a high priority. So long as you don’t look at the whole picture for the comparator council that works.

      I am not arguing that councils do not play politics, btw: of course they do. But that is a secondary issue IMO: the primary issue is that Westminster cuts and leaves others to take the blame when services are not provided. Passing laws which give rights to services while not providing a budget to implement those laws is the height of dishonesty: and they do it all the time

    100. ScotsCanuck says:

      …. I certainly hope it’s not the Daily MIRROR !!!

    101. Black Douglas says:

      Podmore says:
      4 March, 2015 at 4:54 pm

      “Under the SNP, teacher numbers were cut from 52,446 in 2007 to 48,452 in 2014. See Government figures. Blah bla bl b”

      Once again no stats or links just your say so. 😳

      Try again 🙂 also as already pointed out on this thread it is local councils that appoint teachers not the Scottish Government.

      Look forward to your links 👿

    102. Davy says:

      Last week, Tuesday actually I was on late shift (1400-2330) when I received a call from my wife telling me our 11 year old son was not feeling well, short story of it is, a couple of hours later my son is on his way to Aberdeen sick kids in an ambulance and I am frantically organising cover to drive there asap from my work.

      By the time I get to Aberdeen he is starting to improve but has to stay overnight for tests next day. They arranged a room for myself and my wife to try and kip out in, nae much chance of that. And next morning my son has greatly improved and is near enough back to normal and we can take him home just after 11.00 am.

      The treatment of my son by the staff at Keith medical center, Aberdeen Sick Kids and the Ambulance crew was calm, professional and reassuring, and myself and my wife would like to thank them very very much. And I also would like to thank my friends at Network Rail for covering for me at such short notice, and my neighbor Sarah for driving my wife & son to the medical centre.

      Sometimes it take a scare like that to make you realise how much our NHS means to our life’s and community’s. It is simply priceless.

      So when the likes of the Daily record and the politicians of the red tory ilk, doing nothing more than maul the NHS around on a daily basis just to score political points they are insulting the very heart and soul of our nation.

      Somethings should be outwith politics our NHS is defiantly one of them, its a pity our scumbag media and Westminster controlled political parties don’t get that.

    103. Cadogan Enright says:

      @rev PLEEZZE one of your excellent press complaints please

    104. Fiona says:

      @ Will Podmore

      Very good. What are the comparable numbers in England? Can you provide links to the figures in your post above and to the English ones, please?

      I do remember that it was reported that english teacher numbers fell by 10,000 in one year in 2012, but I do not recall the other numbers nor how they compare to Scotland.

      Pretty basic information if you are to make your case.

      While we are at it can you let us know how many hospital beds have been lost directly through PFI in England and in Scotland: for I know that the PFI hospital I am most familiar with replaced an older one which had more beds, and that was by design on the basis of a bean counter’s notion of what counts as efficiency.

    105. The Rough Bounds says:

      I suggested to the SNP early last year that they ought to drop the letters NHS and simply say SHS, The Scottish Health Service. My suggestion was ignored.

      My brother also wrote to a Scottish Government minister suggesting the same thing. He got fobbed off with some lame excuse about cost.

      Well, now the enemy is milking this confusion about the Scottish and English Health Service or all its worth and it would have made our job a lot easier if we had simply dropped ‘NHS’ and just called it SHS, the Scottish Health Service.

      The SNP dragged their heels on this and now we’re hopping around like scalded cats saying ”Ah, but that’s not us, that’s the English NHS.”

      Not good enough.

    106. Onwards says:

      orri says:

      “Think we’re in serious danger of losing the election or the chance of a coalition if we constantly complain about devolved matters being discussed.”

      The point here is clarity.

      Scottish MP’s elected to Westminster aren’t directly responsible for the performance of the Scottish NHS.

      And the SNP or Scottish Government isn’t responsible for the English NHS.

      Of course, Scottish MPs have a chance to defend the Barnett portion of the overall Scottish Budget, or push for more powers, but that isn’t the issue here.

      It’s about transparency and democratic accountability.

    107. One_Scot says:

      It just shows you how desperate the Daily Record/Scottish Labour are, having to manipulate stories to push their political agenda.

      Gutter journalism of the highest from the Daily Record. It’s the people who pay them money only to be taken advantage of that I feel sorry for.

    108. Rob James says:

      With the quality of journalism at the rancid, I’m surprised,( or maybe not so), that they have managed to escape the investigation into MNG. Perhaps a bit of digging might produce some revealing information. I’ll get my spade at the ready.

    109. Papadox says:

      How can the Mirror group including the Daily Rancid get a licence from the ” ESTABLISHMENT” in London to print lies deceit and misinformation knowing it to be so. Is this their definition of newspaper. How can these people get away with this rubbish without the assistance and collusion of the establishment. Same goes for EBC with knobs on.

      @willy Plodmore. Your teas oot it will soon be your bed pan time son, get yer picture book.

      Time for the Scottish health service to be re branded. SHS. Or whatever.

    110. Fiona says:

      @ Rob James

      The daily record is probably squeaky clean wrt to phone hacking. Why would they need to do that when they largely reprint Labour press releases as news; and rely on Mr Murphy and his pals phoning them to give them copy?

    111. Vince says:

      Will Podmore

      The Nuffield Trust figures for overnight beds in hospitals in England suggest that for the years covered by you, that is 2007/08 to 2013/14 fell from 161k to 136k. A fall of 15% compared with the figures you have given for Scotland of a fall of 11%.
      You did say faster than almost than anywhere in the Western world but you failed to say more slowly than England.

    112. Rigmac7 says:

      Willie boy,

      Stop being lazy/deliberately obtuse/MSM subserviant. Provide links to articles or published accurate figures – you know the rules by now old bean 🙂

    113. Luigi says:

      I wonder if an “Imperial Masters” anti-bias march, from Labour Branch (Bath street) down to DR (Anderson Quay), then across the river to the BBC (Pacific Quay) would be feasible?

      Starting at the Red Tory office – heck, we could even offer to deliver their press release to the DR and BBC that day!

    114. Mealer says:

      Daily Redcoat.Anti Scotland.

    115. Onwards says:

      @Will Podmore

      ..”nationalism replacing class”

      Surely the demand for more powers is to ultimately boost the ability to improve the economy or increase equality.

      More powers obviously equals more opportunities.

    116. Stoker says:

      Famous15 says:
      “..from now on I will refer to the Scottish Health Service..”
      “Suggest y’all do the same..”

      Count me in.
      From now on i shall endeavour to do likewise.
      “Scottish Health Service” it is.
      😉

    117. call me dave says:

      Torcuil Crichton opines from Westminster on Newsdrive Scotland re:

      Farage and his new UKIP immigration figures, which are not as restrictive as previous values.

      “He’s making it up as he goes along” says Torcuil “and we all know how much scrutiny there is nowadays”

      There you have it folks (his fingers were crossed behind his back as he said it) Funny old world init!

    118. Dr Jim says:

      @Fiona
      Where did you get that i said Councils worked for the Scottish Government or indeed Westminster
      I never said either
      What my point was, is Local Councils who fail through incompetence or indeed political opposition should be in simple words
      Whapped oot and replaced with people who can do the job
      The reason for my point is The unadulterated corruption that has gone on in Glasgow for, in my living memory or since i started paying attention to it 50 years and i remember at one time The Daily Record used to tell us about it
      That was maybe back when that publication was a newspaper
      My own Local Council now is East Dunbartonshire where the SNP are the largest party but are frozen out by the other parties by weight of numbers and so implementation of policies don’t happen due to political unwilling not finance, and there is proven corruption but you can’t budge them
      Other councils suffer from the same malaise
      I just see it as a problem needing fixing and if you as i have, run a company or business they would be gone and gone as quick as i could get them out
      Our Money..Our Towns.. Our Country
      Mr Angry Bishopbriggs…no anorack

    119. Fiona says:

      @ Vince

      It is very kind of you to do Will Podmore’s work for him. But it occurs to me that you may be enabling his condition. It will be far better for him to learn to deal with the fact that a case requires evidence: his claims, so the onus is on him.

    120. Dave says:

      I suppose asking them to print a correction about the incorrect categorisation would be taking things a tad too far

    121. K1 says:

      Fiona, apropos your reply to me on an earlier thread, I beg to differ with your asssesment of your writing ability. You exude a fluency in deconstrucion that is quite simply elegant.

      I do think you are more than capable of presenting an article to Wings on any number of subjects pertaining to the political and economic paradigm that we find ourselves engaging with within these threads.

      Unlike the dull and brain numbing rhetoric that we are all complaining about from our msm’s limited smorgasbord of pundits; yours is a voice that is truly alternative and engagingly refreshing when it comes to explaining and deconstructing the underlying edifice that underpins much of what is considered absolutely sacrosanct by the worshippers of our current paradigm.

      As an aside, yes the level of complexity that these economic ‘disciplines’ have created to obscure ‘simple’ realities, has actually become an ‘art form’ of sorts.

      Abstraction taken to its nadir.

    122. Casper1066 says:

      Daily Record = Professional Liars…..proved time and time again…

    123. Casper1066 says:

      Hi,

      Is there anyway this site can hold onto my details so I do not keep having to re-type them ???

    124. Lollysmum says:

      What this article tells me is they’ve scraped the barrel & still haven’t been able to come up with a bad story on Scottish Health Service 🙂

      Bad luck Murray-this story is about my English NHS failure which is being deliberately run down to sell it off thus lining their mates pockets.

      As I said last week The INCORRECT DAILY RECORD strikes again with devastating inaccuracy designed to mislead the voter.

      O/T
      Fiona-I’ve not had an email from you so can’t phone. Did you use Stu’s Contact page to send it?

    125. tooz says:

      The DR. Jobby pre-wrapped.

    126. manandboy says:

      @Karmanaut
      Remember, these are the people who’s campaign turned a massive lead for No into a slender one. They almost lost what many thought wasn’t possible to lose.

      An analysis of the Indy vote by AGE
      showed that the over 65’s –
      those targetted by BT –
      by and large voted No.

      As expected, older voters were the most decisively opposed to independence, with nearly three quarters (73%) of those aged 65 or over voting No.

      http://www.lordashcroftpolls.com/2014/09/scotland-voted/

      So while the No lead fell as you say, Karmanaut,
      there can be little doubt that the No Campaign had a big success with the over 65’s with 73% voting No.

      That group of 73% of over 65’s is the one I am thinking of.
      In numbers it is around 600,000 plus AFAIAA and may be more.
      In GE 15, McTernan’s team will be trying to scare once again the over 65’s.

      Right now, I’d say he’s doing just that,
      simply because, through the BBC and the Daily Record ,
      he is getting his Fear message across, loud and clear,
      right into their sitting rooms.

      Is the SNP doing that?

    127. nycgype says:

      As someone who works in London midweek, I can confirm there is a very obvious (for those of us who have been through the referendum and have our eyes wide open) coordinated propaganda war against the NHS in the English media. I have no doubt this is intended to create the eventual perception that it can only be saved through privatisation. The beauty of this message is that it only requires a minimum tweak for consumption in Scotland to associate it with SNP = bad.

      Speaking of very obvious propaganda….there is a noticeable ramping of feel good royal stories (particularly the princes) beyond even the most pointless updates already conveyed. In addition there is an increase in the ‘support our troops’ type of coverage which makes me feel uneasy after having spent 8 years in a highly militarised country which brainwashes their people with a jingoistic media – the USA.

    128. Desimond says:

      Why did you do this?

      You can bet the robotic Kezia would have raised this one in FMQs much to the hilarity of everyone watching in the chamber and beyond!

    129. Paula Rose says:

      When we are independent it will be the National Health Service.

      Re-branding now would add two sets of additional costs.

      It’s up to us to explain the separate NHS, there are a lot of us.

    130. Ken500 says:

      Murray puts the foot in again. The DR compulsive liars. Give ’em the boot 7/5/15.

    131. Stoker says:

      Casper1066 says:
      “Is there anyway this site can hold onto my details so I do not keep having to re-type them ???”

      Casper,
      Try moving your cursor over the ‘Name (required)’ rectangle and then double tap your mousepad. your name should appear within the rectangle.

      Now move the cursor down to the ‘Mail… (required)’ rectangle and do the same. Your email should appear in that space.

      Now compile your post then Submit Comment.

      Hey Presto – That’s all i’ve ever had to do each time.

      Let us know how you get on.

    132. Fiona says:

      Odd, Stoker. I don’t have to do anything cos the site remembers and puts my name and mail in the boxes automatically. Don’t know why yours should be different. Anyone know?

    133. ronnie anderson says:

      Mind tune into 2015 tonite Prof Cuntice is gonna tell us what to THINK,dont fekin shout at me ah didna write the script Sarah Smith did.

    134. MJC says:

      @Luigi.

      Very excellant idea dear boy.

    135. Cuilean says:

      Well, you read right to the end, Stu, so thanks. I never read the DR. But thanks for confirming DR’s daily chicanery.

      Off topic: just heard the latest 8 more in depth Ashcroft polls on Reporting Scotland! Jackie Bird’s rectal grimace foreshadowed,how the unionists parties appear to be ‘on the ropes’ and they would all lose their seats but, hysterically, she avoided spelling out exactly which party is predicted to win the seats! You simply can’t make this BBC propaganda up!

      Heartfelt congratulations on smashing your target by doubling it to over £90K; and racked up quicker than Jack Straw tours of Westminster for Chinese billionaires.

    136. tartanarse says:

      Fiona, at 2.07

      That is it precisely. State telly even use taxpayers money to further implant the lie using their fictional hospital drama programmes. (that I don’t watch on principle)

      These hospitals are crap, we are skint. If only there was some way that we could bring investors into the service, but we can’t do that whilst it’s government run etc…..

      We know the rest.

    137. ronnie anderson says:

      @ John King sorry John ah could,nt make it to the Grand Opening of the Summerhouse, could you keep me ah Camparie n Soda an some o they folly vaunts.

    138. JLT says:

      …Huddersfield, West Yorkshire.

      Seriously …does the Daily Record not have a clue what happened to the Scotsman after months and months of passing stories that were just utter nonsense in parts.

      It was no wonder that the Scotsman’s circulation went down the pan (…or bed pan maybe in this case).

      If the Record keeps this nonsense up relentlessly over these next few months, then it will be very interesting to see how their overall circulation does.

    139. @Casper1066 says:

      Hi,

      Is there anyway this site can hold onto my details so I do not keep having to re-type them ???

      Left click each box and your details appear blow click again.

    140. CameronB Brodie says:

      I agree a name change would sort out a lot of confusion.

      Might the SNP have baulked at doing so, fearing the coordinated media campaign shouting ‘Separatists’, that would undoubtedly have followed?

      Re. toys – they last longer if treated with care and respect. 😉

    141. Phronesis says:

      The state of NHS England now reflects very badly on WM politicians who have either not taken the time to understand the various changes to the delivery of health that culminated in the toxic Health and Social Care Act 2012 ,or have wilfully colluded with the agenda of privatisation.
      There are many challenges to the delivery of health in Scotland ( that are common to most countries in Europe) but we are on a much better footing with a Scottish government who supports the state and supports universal services.

    142. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Bandying about figures of teacher numbers is meaningless.
      Laying aside the fact that it is councils not central government that employs teachers the only meaningful comparison is about number of teachers against number of pupils and not total numbers of teachers. It also has to be factored in that smaller schools with a higher teacher/pupil ration are becoming fewer and this affects the ratio quite considerably.

      On colleges it is a fact that the SNP Government has quite deliberately removed or merged huge numbers of severely undersubscribed college courses which has obviously cut college lecturer positions. This was very sensible indeed. The money saved from this rationalisation has been transferred into significant support for hugely successful modern apprenticeships scheme and into the university sector.

      As somebody else pointed out one of the ruinous effects PFI funding of hospitals was cutting of bed numbers but hospitals also have refined their rules about how long a recovering patient has to stay in hospital. One of the biggest problems here is the inadequate levels of after hospital care provided by many of our councils which also results in considerable bed blocking.
      We need independence to sort out the funding for our Health Service

    143. Fiona says:

      @ David McEwan Hill

      Will Podmore will be back any minute with all of the relevant evidence in support of his claims, I am sure. It is bound to include pupil teacher ratios and everything else you require. I am certain it will be thorough, so we can all see how right he is

    144. tartanarse says:

      JLT at 7.28

      Sales don’t matter. They are being propped up by the parent company. So is every other MSM outlet in Scotland.

      Same goes for the skint “Scottish” political parties. All run from London, at a loss, but necessary in the grand scheme of things.

      It’s ironic that this shower really are dependent on the London pound whilst Scotland isn’t.

      Let shut them down one at a time. Labour first, the rest will die off naturally.

    145. Lollysmum says:

      My laptop is clearly not taking any notice of posters instructions. I have to type in every time. Bit of a pain really!

    146. Famous15 says:

      BTW the SNP cannot insist on the MSM carrying their message so it is folly to berate them for timidity. Many of the public are beginning to realise that the pro Murphy media is a blow for democracy so leave the MSM to destroy themselves. The Mirror/Daily Record are about to implode with their phone hacking punishment and I do hope they do not bring down the Labour Party with them. Scotland needs high quality honest opposition and a Phoenix Labour Party may begin to grow.

      The Scottish Health Service does not need new signage or letterheads because that would hand the Unionists a stick to beat the SNP with. Let the SHS be our name ,our pet name,for a wonderful service. The Scottish Health Service is doing magnificently in very difficult circumstances.

    147. Rob James says:

      Fiona @ 5:40 pm.

      With regard to politics, you are probably correct, but I still question whether they receive stories from their partners in the Mirror Group, without providing anything in return. I’m sure they are all in it together.

      @ Dave McEwan Hill

      As you pointed out, statistics are a load of bollocks without the full set of figures to analyse. As we see on a regular basis, Slab pluck figures out of thin air and use them totally out of context.

    148. Stoker says:

      @ Lollysmum.

      I followed Cynical Highlanders advice to Casper and that also works for me (but i had to double click each time) as well as the way i described.

    149. Bit of a stushie says:

      @Will Podmore

      Hospital bed numbers are falling in almost all EU countries. There are several reasons, none of which are to do with nationalism or class. Advances in technology and medicines make it possible to treat as day surgery problems that would previously have required a hospital stay of several days. Staying out of hospital cuts infection risk. Money is a factor; inpatient treatment is expensive and doesn’t necessarily lead to a better outcome.

      Older people make up the majority of inpatients and for them particularly, being admitted to hospital is risky. They are more likely to die, have complications or end up being discharged to a care home. The more hospital beds a health service has, the more likely people are to be admitted even though that’s not necessarily the best thing for them.

      Obviously there has to be a balance. Sometimes being admitted is the best thing and a debate about the right number of beds to achieve that balance would be worthwhile. But the assertion that a reduction in inpatient beds is somehow a consequence of class or of thinking Scotland should be independent is nonsense.

      You’ll find some useful insight into trends across the EU here:

      http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/9789264183896-en/03/05/index.html?itemId=/content/chapter/9789264183896-32-en

    150. Helena Torry says:

      I have just been discharged from hospital recently in Aberdeen. I had pneumonia & blood clots on my lungs & heart, a condition going back to at least September 2014. The care I received was utterly magnificent – especially from the A&E department. I cannot understand why the Labour Party & the Daily Record are continuing to bring the Scottish NHS down? I was looked after with with the finest of attention & the best of treatment.. Don’t believe the Daily Record – Don’t believe the Labour Party. The Scottish NHS is superb.

    151. Gary says:

      Being a paper circulated solely in Scotland why are they even reporting on this? Its not like it affects any of their readers. It doesn’t inform the readers decision on their vote in May, their local MPs have no input on Scottish NHS. I can only conclude that they were willing to deliberately mislead their readers in an attempt to stop them voting SNP!

    152. Robert Peffers says:

      It just has to be said, The Record just,“piles more piles of lies upon existing piles of lies in that (ahem!), scoop. Doesnt the guy realise they did him a big favour?

      Best place to be after an enema is as close as you can get to a toiled seat.

      I’ll get my coat.

    153. North chiel says:

      Excellent post from “Mañandboy” at 03.44pm “bang on the money”

    154. Will Podmore says:

      Black Douglas, in answer to your polite inquiry for sources, see http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/School-Education/TrendTeacherNumbers, 25.2.15. These latest figures show that despite the flagship Scottish Government pledge to maintain teacher numbers, there are now 48,442 school-based teachers, a fall of 4,004 since the SNP came to power in 2007.
      Education body Colleges Scotland points out that there were 238,805 Scottish college students in the academic year 2012-13, down from 347,336 in 2009-10. Over the same period, the hours of learning delivered by colleges fell from 83.4 million to 73.7 million, while staff numbers were cut from 20,686 to 13,761.
      We may disagree with the reasons, but the facts are clear. In many people’s opinion, including the teaching unions, the SNP’s education reforms, not ‘Westminster’, are responsible for these cuts.

    155. Fiona says:

      Excellent, Will Podmore: Now we just need the comparative figures for England, and the other information asked for, and we are set. Take your time…..

    156. Simon Mac says:

      It might be in Yorkshire on some bit of paper..but the cricket team plays in the Lancashire league and most of the people regard themsel as Lancs. The postcode is Oldham too. used to sit in both counties and the town hall was astride both back in the day. There aint much going on there.

      Think Royston vasey and you get the picture

    157. orri says:

      I’d have thought all we’d have to do is ask why a decision that is made at a local level is being discussed. Further it seems Will is actually agreeing with Holyrood targeting funding at maintaining staff levels. It’s almost as though the Labour story is we’ll complain about our own decisions and only change them once we’ve regained control at every level from Westminster down.

    158. Leginge says:

      So we have a sustained attack on the NHS quality of provision by Establishment figures, by the two main Establishment political party spokespersons and by the Establsihment tv and print media. The objective ultimately is to influence public opinion to the view that privatisation will be good for the service. So the task facing supporters of a state run NHS is how to counteract this message. Statistics and naming faceless private health companies won’t nail it with your average voter. But connecting the financial benefit of privatisation to certain Labour and Tory (and LibDem) individuals (eg Darling) will be a potent weapon – the political establishment are terrified of the sleaze tag. I believe thare are a number of labour peers and maybe MP’s who advise the private health companies, these people should named. Also, who voted for privatisation bills in Westminster – the people should be told !

    159. Will Podmore says:

      Fiona asked for these figures
      Scotland
      Pupil teacher ratios:

      2007 2014
      Primary 15.8 16.7
      Secondary 11.6 12.1
      Special 3.3 3.5
      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/School-Education/TrendTeacherNumbers, 25.2.15.

      Below is the most recent set of figures for England, from the Department of Education.
      “Between spring 2000 and November 2011 the numbers of full-time equivalent teachers in service has increased by 32,200 from 405,800 to 438,000. This represents an increase of 7.9%. However, in the most recent year there has been a decrease in teacher numbers after a period where teacher numbers have remained relatively flat. For example, teacher numbers increased by 8,800 (2.0%) from 439,300 in 2007 to 448,100 in November 2010. Teacher numbers fell by 10,000 (2%) between November 2010 and November 2011.
      • The overall pupil to teacher ratio was 17.6 compared to 17.3 in November 2010. The Local Authority Maintained Overall PTR has increased in part because the proportion of
      secondary school pupils and teachers included in this figure has decreased as more schools have converted to academy status.
      https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/219297/sfr06-2012v6.pdf

      On the appalling PFI, see PFI and the National Health Service in England by Allyson M Pollock and David Price,
      June 2013. They concluded, “The first wave of hospital PFI projects was associated with average cuts in bed numbers of between 7 and 44 per cent, an average of around 30 per cent (table 5).31 By 1999, the government launched an enquiry into the national bed shortage that had resulted from these measures and called a temporary halt and a planned increase in bed numbers. But this policy was not enacted.”
      http://www.allysonpollock.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/AP_2013_Pollock_PFILewisham.pdf

      On Scotland’s experience of PFI, see Downsizing of acute inpatient beds associated with private finance initiative: Scotland’s case study, by Matthew G Dunnigan, Allyson M Pollock, BMJ 2003;326:905–8
      Abstract
      Objectives To evaluate whether the projected 24%
      reduction in acute bed numbers in Lothian hospitals,
      which formed part of the private finance initiative (PFI)
      plans for the replacement Royal Infirmary of
      Edinburgh, is being compensated for by improvements
      in efficiency and greater use of community facilities,
      and to ascertain whether there is an independent PFI
      effect by comparing clinical activity and performance in
      acute specialties in Lothian hospitals with other NHS
      hospitals in Scotland.
      Results By 2000-1, rates for inpatient admission in all
      acute, medical, surgical, and intensive therapy
      specialties in Lothian hospitals were respectively 20%,
      6%, 28%, and 38% below those in the rest of Scotland.
      Day case rates in all acute and acute surgical
      specialties were 13% and 33% lower. The proportion
      of delayed discharges in staffed acute and post-acute
      NHS beds in Lothian hospitals exceeded the Scottish
      average (15% and 12% respectively; P < 0.001).
      Conclusion The planning targets and increase in
      clinical activity in acute specialties in Lothian
      hospitals associated with PFI had not been achieved
      by 2000-1. The effect on clinical activity has been a
      steeper decline in the number of acute beds and rates
      of admission in Lothian hospitals compared with the rest of Scotland between 1995-6 and 2000-1.

    160. Fiona says:

      So Scotland has a lower pupil to teacher ratio than England, on the figures you have provided. Is that correct?

      PFI has adversely affected the NHS in both England and Scotland. Is that correct?

      The problem is neoliberal ideology, imposed by Westminster all over the UK. No surprise there

      Your case was that “This is what happens when “nationalism appears to be replacing class as the leading edge of progressive politics in Scotland.”

      I do not think you have sustained it.

    161. Will Podmore says:

      Dave McEwan Hill wrote, “the SNP Government has quite deliberately removed or merged huge numbers of severely undersubscribed college courses which has obviously cut college lecturer positions. This was very sensible indeed.” Jambo too applauded the job cuts, only complaining that too few were cut.
      Vince compared the figures I gave for hospital beds in Scotland for 2007 – 2011 with the Nuffield Trust figures for overnight beds in hospitals in England for 2007-2013, and found that in those 6 years England lost more beds than Scotland did in 4 years.
      Yes Fiona, Scotland has a lower pupil to teacher ratio than England. And the ratio is worsening in both England and Scotland. In Scotland, this is because there are now 48,442 school-based teachers, a fall of 4,004 since the SNP came to power in 2007. This breaks the flagship SNP pledge to maintain teacher numbers.
      Yes, again, PFI has been a disaster wherever it has been imposed.
      The facts are there. Some, like Dave and Jambo, support the cuts, which sheds light on their commitment to social justice.
      ‘Austerity’ policies, whether imposed by Westminster, Holyrood or Brussels, are poverty policies; they are bad for all workers. So unite and fight! Or, as the SNP wants, be divided and be ruled.

    162. Fiona says:

      As I said, Will Podmore, you have not made your case. I think you know that.

      These outcomes are nothing at all to do with “nationalism” and everything to do with neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is supported by all the mainstream parties, without reservation. That means that they are not social democratic parties in any way. The SNP also supports it in part, or at least pays lip service to it. That is probably inevitable in the current situation, since the narrative of debt and deficit has taken such a hold of the people: direct challenge to that would require reams of explanation which will never be heard because of the situation with the MSM. But in that situation it is still possible to be a social democrat and to take some measures which would mitigate the effects: the SNP has pledged to do that and in office has actually done it.

      That is the basis for the support for the SNP: there is no-one they can unite with for no-one else even wants to do that: which is also demonstrated by their behaviour in office

      Your call for working class unity is emotional, and it bears no relation to the reality of the situation we are now in.

      What is good for the working class in the whole of the UK is a demonstration that things don’t have to be this way. And that is best done by doing something different. That can be achieved in Scotland with FFA or with independence. It cannot be done in the UK and so your notion is to continue with a rhetoric comprehensively outflanked over decades: it has no resonance any more. It has failed and failed again.

      We can’t eat emotion, Will Podmore. We can’t live on dreams. We can’t accept a characterisation of nationalism which belongs in the mid 20th century and has no place in the debate going on in Scotland now.

      I know you are unable to move past your fond imaginings: but your own “evidence” gives the lie to your analysis as you absolutely admit in your final paragraph.

      Why not give it up before your head explodes?

    163. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore: “as the SNP wants, be divided and be ruled.”

      Only a troll or a Westminster politician would stand truth on its head. We are divided and ruled now by Westminster.

      By the way, the rest of your post is incomprehensible, even passages of others you quote. You have a habit of making a statement and then taking a false leap of logic.

    164. Grouse Beater says:

      Fiona: Plodmore, why not give it up before your head explodes?

      By his mentality he will argue it can only implode.

    165. Leginge says:

      just wanted to say to Fiona well done – your piece demolishing mr podmore’s argument was brilliant. But even better is the case you make for why old socialist working class solidarity types should relent to some extent on their principles and support the only progressive force for social change in our lifetime, the scottish government. We need more labour die-hards to realise the potential an independent scotland offers for both scottish working class and rUK in the long run. Is that not waht Tariq Ali and RIC is all about.

    166. Will Podmore says:

      Grouse Beater is right – we are divided and ruled by our rulers.
      Leginge – the only progressive force for social change in our lifetime is the British working class. As Fiona acknowledges, the SNP supports neoliberalism in part, which is why its education ‘reforms’ cut jobs and college places. In more concrete terms, the SNP supports the capitalist ruling class. Why else did the SNP collude with Westminster to allow Abellio (Dutch State Railways) to take over Scotrail? Is that the kind of independence you want?
      To dismiss the working class call for unity as emotional echoes the rulers. To say, ‘doing something different … cannot be done in the UK” is defeatism, which again echoes the rulers. A separate Scotland would not be an exemplary social democracy. It would join the EU and join the euro, which, as you all well know, means accepting everlasting austerity, the austerity you claim to oppose. But inconsistency is the price you have to pay for rejecting class as the organising principle of politics.
      A separate Scotland in the EU, in the Eurozone, would not be independent, it would just be yet another rejected and ignored peripheral province of the EU.

    167. Juteman says:

      @Will Podmore.
      Do you ever fall asleep listening to yourself spout the same pish?

    168. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore, you really must stop posting evidence of your ignorance, otherwise those who see you a troll will be confirmed in their judgment, and the rest think you a liar.

      “the SNP supports neoliberalism in part, which is why its education ‘reforms’ cut jobs and college places.”

      More drivel: the SNP does not accept in toto neoliberalism as you slyly imply, but it does have to accept what is imposed upon it because Westminster will not devolve power to organise society otherwise.

      Indeed, our Parliament never had the opportunity to debate neocon dogma. What it can keep safe from neoliberal orthodoxy and stranglehold, such as free education and the Welfare State, it protects as best it can.

      “Why else did the SNP collude with Westminster to allow Abellio (Dutch State Railways) to take over Scotrail?”

      The Scottish Parliament has no control over railways, not even railway policemen, though it has asked for both. Of course, independence, genuine self-governance, would have fixed that, not that you would dare admit it.

    169. Fiona says:

      Suggest you give it up, Grouse Beater.

      There is nothing new to say on either side of this argument and, as ever, the debate is never about changing the mind of the person on the other side: it is about laying out the issues for the audience, so they can assess the quality of what is argued and make their own minds up.

      Mr Podmore is wedded to his position, as I think we all know by now. I believe that he has been shown to be comprehensively wrong on his central point, and shown to be so by his own evidence.

      What more could we ask for?



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