The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland


What Alistair Darling Said

Posted on June 05, 2014 by

There’s a considerable amount of uncertainty currently flying around on the internet with regards to Alistair Darling’s comments in an interview with the New Statesman which was published on the magazine’s website yesterday.

There seems to be no dispute that the “Better Together” leader compared Alex Salmond to dead North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il, adding his name to the illustrious pantheon of assorted Unionist politicians and journalists who’ve likened Scotland’s democratically-elected First Minister to a series of genocidal murderers.

There is, however, something of a grey area around whether Mr Darling also accused the entire SNP of promoting “blood-and-soil nationalism” – an extremely offensive term normally used in reference to Nazi Germany, where it translated as “Blut und Boden”.

blutundboden

Well, let us clear that up for you. Yes, he did.

In the original version of the interview, the New Statesman attributes the words to Darling directly, quoting him as saying The SNP does not offer a civic nationalism … at heart it is blood-and-soil nationalism” (the ellipsis is the magazine’s, not ours).

After several hours during which numerous No-campaign figures and spokesmen had hyped and defended the interview without raising any objections to the attribution, suddenly they denied he’d said it and the magazine abruptly claimed that the quote had been a “transcription error”, and published what it said was the real exchange:

“NS: Salmond has successfully redefined the SNP as [representing] a civic nationalism . . .

Darling: Which it isn’t . . .

NS: But that’s what he says it is. Why do you say it isn’t? What is it? Blood and soil nationalism?

Darling: At heart . . . [inaudible mumble] If you ask any nationalist, ‘Are there any circumstances in which you would not vote to be independent?’ they would say the answer has got to be no.”

We have no reason to disbelieve the magazine’s account in this regard, though it has as yet declined to release the audio recording of those few seconds. It wouldn’t be the first time a magazine or newspaper had tried to make an interview more readable by misattributing quotes in such a way, and while far from ideal or admirable, it’s not the worst of journalistic crimes so long as it accurately represents the interviewee’s views.

And that’s the thing: it did.

While social media have made great merriment with the “[inaudible mumble]” line, it’s a red herring. Because there are only two kinds of nationalism – “civic” nationalism, an inclusive creed in which a nation is defined by the simple geography of its location and which therefore encompasses anyone who lives there regardless of where they were born, and “ethnic” nationalism, an exclusive and hostile form where the nation’s supposed characteristics are held to be racial and genetic.

The Nazis, of course, were ethnic nationalists. All of the world’s genocides have (by definition) been based on ethnic nationalism. For the Germans, Jewishness was in the blood, and could not be removed either by racial intermingling or a change of location. In Bosnia in the 1990s, Serbians didn’t undertake a programme of “civic cleansing”.

I’m “ethnically” Scottish – I was born in Scotland to Scottish parents and grew up there – but not currently “civically” Scottish (because I live in England), so I don’t get a vote in the referendum because the SNP are civic nationalists. If they were ethnic ones, I’d get a vote and a Polish immigrant to Aberdeen who moved there two years ago wouldn’t. I wholeheartedly endorse the SNP’s policy on the matter.

But in saying that the SNP’s approach is NOT civic nationalism, Alistair Darling can only possibly have meant one thing, because there’s only one other kind of nationalism. Ethnic nationalism IS “blood-and-soil” nationalism. That’s what “blood-and-soil nationalism” means.

Whether he directly used the words or not, Alistair Darling clearly and unequivocally said that the SNP were “blood-and-soil” nationalists, by unambiguous and inescapable implication. In a binary choice, he eliminated one option, leaving only one other possible.

The media, of course, has frantically attempted to airbrush the reference out of history. The Herald’s report makes no mention of that part of the interview whatsoever. Nor do two articles in the Guardian – even though the second is a liveblog which you might expect to cover the story as it unfolded – one in the Scotsman, or one in the Express.

Only the Telegraph mentions it at all, although in a bold twist the paper also carries an extra-specially barking column from Alan Cochrane (no mean feat, that) heroically contriving to blame Alex Salmond for Darling’s abuse of him. It was also raised on Scotland Tonight, whereupon Labour’s Iain Gray astonishingly attempted to pass Darling’s comments off as a “joke”.

But there’s no room for interpretation. Whether the New Statesman releases the audio and lets us judge just how “inaudible” Darling’s subsequent comments were or not, Darling had already made plain the allegation that the SNP, and by extension the entire Yes campaign, is founded on the basis of racism.

It’s a disgraceful, shameful accusation for which any human being with a shred of dignity or decency would, at the absolute minimum, apologise. We are very confident indeed that Mr Darling won’t. And from that, readers can draw their own conclusions.

Print Friendly

8 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 05 06 14 11:25

    What Alistair Darling Said | Scottish Independence News

  2. 05 06 14 13:31

    Yes International |North Korean or Nazi |

  3. 05 06 14 23:03

    Godwin’s Law Versus The Union | A Greater Stage

  4. 11 06 14 13:01

    No more blood and soil | David Petherick

  5. 15 09 14 18:13

    Alistair, Darling….Where WHERE You Born? | EezyPeezyLemonSqeezy

  6. 19 03 15 14:09

    The Post IndyRef Perception in WENI (Wales, England & Northern Ireland) | squidgybidge

  7. 25 05 15 21:05

    The Lyon Yawns: The Disenfranchised

  8. 17 06 16 20:08

    All Unions Are Not Equal | A Wilderness of Peace

216 to “What Alistair Darling Said”

  1. Ron says:

    Exactly what I’ve been saying. Darling explicitly says that SNP are NOT civic nationalists, and is implicitly agreeing with the blood and soil description. There is no other way to spin it.

    It’s a disgrace.

  2. eezy says:

    A random thing to mistakenly say would be “Today is Friday, no sorry, it’s Thursday.”

    “Blood and Soil?”……….Naw

  3. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    The Britnats have been staringly to deeply into the mirror lately. If there is any side in this debate that is more “blood & soil” its the pro-UK side.

    But anyway let them continue to undermine their credibility. Suits me fine

  4. ianmc says:

    “At heart”

    That’s a agreement whith the phrase.

  5. Alfresco Dent says:

    I’m not Scottish but live here and do have a vote. I’m also an SNP member and believe that the people who live here should be the only ones with any say.

    I am of the firm belief that if Scotland were a real country right now Mr. Darling should be charged with treason. Mr. Cochrane is a muppet and, when we have our independence, should be kept around for comedic value.

  6. TheGreatBaldo says:

    Pretty much every Labour Politician of note implies it…..’

    They are internationalist (though very odd ones with a phobia about “foreigners”)

    Meanwhile the SNP are ‘narrow’ & ‘parochial’ nationalists…..

    In fact Douglas Alexander manages to crow bar that into almost every interview.

    Never picked up or commented on by the media naturally

  7. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Ahem…”

    “This page has some issues”.

    And of course it does. I do note the smiley, but obviously it’s the case that there are divisions within the two TYPES of nationalism. But there are only the two core types.

  8. galamcennalath says:

    Yup, if it isn’t civic, it’s ethnic. The debate could be about whether Darling was being implicit or explicit … but does it matter? No, the astonishing slur was clearly intentional!

    Their festering gutter is clearly deep.

  9. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Every BTUKOKER should now be asked whether or not they agree with Darling. John Reid, in Stirling this coming weekend would be a start.

  10. moujick says:

    Spot on as usual Stu. Would really like to hear that inaudible mumble though…

  11. Alfresco Dent says:

    @ Thomas William Dunlop

    I agree. The Yes campaign has forced No Scotland to take a long hard look at itself and it doesn’t like what it sees (or perhaps it does?). It’s why they’re so bitter & nasty.

    They’re like cornered rats, twitchy & vicious. Imagine how they’d behave if they didn’t have free propaganda via our MSM?

  12. Murray McCallum says:

    I take it over the coming week the Scottish news reporters will be interviewing SNP-voting WW2 war veterans and/or their relatives to hear their views on being smeared as “blood and soil” Nazis.

    Or maybe the Scottish news reporters only track down outraged Ukrainians?

  13. steviecosmic says:

    I wonder just when Nos and soft Nos are going to wake up. It’s obvious to anyone with even a modicum of intelligence that the evermore frantic behaviour of the British State, and especially it’s elected and un-elected Scottish representatives at Westminster, is incontrovertible evidence of their willingness to say and do almost anything to keep hold of the too wee too poor and too stupid regionette of Scotlandshire for purely personal financial gain.

    That the entire British media is complicit in this theft of democracy is as sickening a stain on Britannia as there has ever been.

  14. desimond says:

    If only the country was just full of PROUD Scots like Johann Lamont. Is being a proud Scot civil or ethnic pride?

  15. Training Day says:

    A guy on the Rev’s twitter feed made a salient point:

    Compare the MSM’s frantic attempts to airbrush Darling’s comments away with their eagerness to seize upon Salmond’s alleged ‘praise’ of Putin.. and draw your own conclusions.

  16. faolie says:

    First I and my family are viruses [of nationalism], and now, just to emphasise the point, we’re Nazis. Thanks Alistair, I’ll be writing to you.

  17. Vronsky says:

    Poor lost Darling. When you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. (Nietzsche)

  18. heedtracker says:

    The fact is back bench Labour MP Alistair Darling, head of BetterTogether UKOK campaign thinks you’re a nazi if you vote YES for Scotland in September. There is no ambiguity from Darling although there is a wee bit from his cheer leaders like the Telegraph, Guardian, Herald etc who probably do still want to sell their stuff in Scotland.

  19. yerkitbreeks says:

    Ooohhh – Alistair really shouldn’t be doing this sort of thing. Bloomberg is now advising to short on the pound’s volatility

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-05/scots-stoke-volatility-in-vote-seeking-an-end-of-u-k-.html?

  20. AJ says:

    Darling would have had to read and approve the article before it went to print as standard practice. Darling signed off and approved the article and everything he said in it.
    The article in general is just a rant and there is no quality debate or policy there. This on top of the LSE mess last week has ended any credibility Better Together had.

  21. Morag says:

    Training Day, David Torrance also went back and raked up that “gauleiter” thing, linking to an article claiming it was an intentional comparison with nazis.

  22. Morag says:

    Darling would have had to read and approve the article before it went to print as standard practice. Darling signed off and approved the article and everything he said in it.

    You reckon? If that’s the case, he’d be toast in any normal media environment. Surely that can’t have been the case?

  23. David Smith says:

    For him to be making such reprehensible smears on the anniversary of the Western Allies invasion of Europe, during which so many Scots sacrificed their lives to clear Western Europe of ‘blood and soil’ nationalist is frankly unforgivable.
    His despicable act will be remembered and I hope that one day, we can hold him to account for it.

  24. heedtracker says:

    That Daily Telegraph thing is the worst I’ve ever seen. Its posted at 11pm so Cockers is probably very drunk but even so.

  25. manandboy says:

    Alistair Darling is a man up to his neck in quicksand.

    he was desperate before.

    now he’s panicking.

    He’s losing control of both his tongue

    and his mind.

    Darling is now a liability to BT.

    Soon, Cameron will push him under.

  26. desimond says:

    @David Smith
    Dont worry, he’ll no doubt be there standing front and centre at Armed Forces Day with the Unionist loving Stirling Councillors

  27. Ian Brotherhood says:

    In the NS interview Darling also throws down the gauntlet, virtually demanding that Alex Salmond meet him at dawn.

    Wouldn’t this be a good time for the First Minister to do that? It would be short and sweet, and finish the wretched Darling once and for all.

  28. Les Wilson says:

    John read is just another of Slab’s politicians that are happy to try and defeat Scottish Democracy for his own gain, like most of his poltico “friends”.

    He got nothing right when in office, and no better now, only a captured audience would (have to) listen to him and yawn!

  29. gordoz says:

    And yet Darling and the No more Scotland campaign will always get away with this kind of statement & wriggle off the hook for deplorable comments such as this. The media will not go after him as they tried to over FM Russia comments.

    He’s always very clever to counter something that does not represent what he said. In this case his position was to concur and as such he condems himself and his movement to be totally against democracy (civic or otherwise).

    For this reason alone I have always had real problems with the Labour Party mindset in all instances.
    How can Labour supporters back this stance ?

    Well the majority of Labour do and they always will, because they are gullable in the extreme, follow the party mantra from the top (like football allegiance) no inward analysis or discussion. Look at the party conference no inner turmoil or real discussion at all.

    Look at the trade union movement generally, well led ? – impartial ?

    Im afraid Labour are stuck in the quagmire of the corrupt ‘British State’ past and do not recognise an opportunity for progress & change, at least in Scotland.

    If Labour supporters do not come out and condemn Darling over this nonsense then they themselves will be condemnded to extremist fringes along with Ukip nutters, who they are now also in bed with along with the Tories.
    Did anyone really believe they would ever see this in their lifetime.

    LABOUR & TORY United for Britain and as a result against Scotland. Milliband and Lammont condone, Darlings race to the bottom of polotical comment & dialogue.

    Thats about it isn’t it.

  30. James Dow A voice from the diaspora says:

    Oh Alistair is our Darling, our Darling, our Darling
    Alistair is our Darling for YES he has no peer
    For yes he can reverse the tide
    By driving voters to their side
    And after all of this is done
    He’s surprised for yes has won
    Chorus
    For no he tries to plant the seed
    For something that we have no need
    We really should pay him no mind
    Along with others of his kind
    Chorus
    He’s the leader of his own campaign
    They’d like to flush him down the drain
    But that would be a change of heart
    Showing that they’re not real smart
    Chorus
    For all the children of the clans
    The time is now for joining hands
    It’s quite a simple thing to choose
    There’s nothing real for us to lose

    Make up your own words
    It’s the melody that counts, and of course darling Alistair
    Remember I’m a piper and a poet not a songwriter.
    Goodnight from Australia.

  31. bookie from hell says:

    mumblegate

    strange,even journalist in denial what was said

  32. faolie says:

    Just emailed him:

    Dear Mr Darling

    First, your leader describes the nationalism to which I and my family have been associated for many years as a ‘virus’. Now, just to emphasise what your party thinks of us, you call it ‘blood and soil’ nationalism.

    When I read this on Twitter last night I was furious that you would stoop to this. Now I just feel sad that you hate your fellow Scots in such a way. Presumably after we vote Yes in September you’ll move south of the border to place as much distance from us as possible, probably all the way to London and a cushy seat in the House of Lords. I’m sure you’ll deserve it.

    Yours sincerely

  33. Les Wilson says:

    By the way, I just made a complaint over this to the E/Commission.I sent the link to this article saying that it would explain the position better than I could.

    I asked them if such insidious talk was acceptable from the Leader of the Better Together campaign, and to let me know what they will do about it.
    To do nothing about would then confirm that talk like this is acceptable.

    I will report on how it goes.

  34. Luigi says:

    If Alistair Darling, who seems to have lost the plot completely, would be kind enough, and big enough to apologise for his offensive remarks, then this would all blow over very quickly.

  35. iain taylor (not that one) says:

    Over a slurp of beer on my arrival in Bavaria last night, I ran Darling’s inspired musings past a well informed & educated local.

    A jaw dropper for her.

  36. iheartScotland says:

    This is absolutely disgraceful. Turn those comments on their head and wonder what the reaction would be. In any decent democracy westminsters darling would be sacked immediately.

  37. Ravelin says:

    From the Bloomberg link yerkitbreeks posted @9:59 am

    “Should Scotland opt to leave the U.K., the economic fallout and uncertainty generated may cause the BOE to postpone raising its main interest rate from a record-low 0.5 percent, according to Rob Wood, the chief U.K. economist at Berenberg Bank in London.”

    So since most of us will still have mortgages pinned somehow to the BOE base rate, at least until formal Independence in 2016 if not longer, vote YES to keep your mortgage payments down!

  38. Luigi says:

    In the NS interview Darling also throws down the gauntlet, virtually demanding that Alex Salmond meet him at dawn.

    Wouldn’t this be a good time for the First Minister to do that? It would be short and sweet, and finish the wretched Darling once and for all.

    Alistair Darling would run a mile if he thought the FM would accept his challenge. Mr Darling may be a sick man, but he is not entirely stupid.

  39. James Dow A voice from the diaspora says:

    Faolie reply If he went to where you say he should go, he would be going home for he was born in London to an English father.

  40. Mary Bruce says:

    If I asked anyone “Is SNP nationalism ‘blood and soil’ nationalism?” and they answered “At heart,” then they are agreeing that it is ‘blood and soil’ nationalism. Why is there a dispute about this? Darling’s meaning is clear as day.

  41. Gillie says:

    Alistair Darling must have thought he was being bold in making that claim that all Scottish nationalists are neo-Nazis. Better Together and the New Statesman were perfectly happy go along with that ………….. but now as panic has crept in over the “blood and soil” comments we see a very crude attempt to air-brush the record.

    Remember the phrase blut-und-boden, because every time you meet a unionist stick this right up their snotty noses so they can smell their own shyte.

  42. Pentland Firth says:

    Darling’s comments on the Yes campaign are equivalent to a football coach describing Real Madrid as a team of hackers and long ball merchants. We should perhaps take comfort in the fact that when the leader of the No campaign so fundamentally misunderstands his opponents, he’s more than half way to losing. Winners don’t indulge in deranged rants, but losers do.

  43. Smokey Toon says:

    The British government put Agent Provocatuers into Scotland in the 80 & early 90s, to discredit the Independence movement using extremism.
    They had very limited success

  44. kininvie says:

    If you ask any nationalist, ‘Are there any circumstances in which you would not vote to be independent?’ they would say the answer has got to be no.”

    It’s interesting that Darling uses this as a justification for his rejection of civic nationalism, and it really doesn’t hold water.

    For example, I might well vote No if I thought that the Union was a genuine partnership. I might prefer in my heart that Scotland became independent, but recognise that the benefits of the union outweighed that. I’m sure many No voters feel this way – and of course it is the line that BT advances day after day.

    But because I don’t think the Union is a genuine partnership, I’m voting Yes. Where Darling and his followers go so badly wrong is in their refusal to see that this is a valid choice. Because I reject their argument, and since their argument is so self-evidently right, I must automatically be an ethnic nationalist.

    Voting No is an entirely respectable decision – and many people in Scotland will take it. I don’t use the term ‘Britnat’ – and I don’t like it being used, because thinking that way is to take a step down the same path as Darling.

  45. galamcennalath says:

    gordoz says:
    Im afraid Labour are stuck in the quagmire of the corrupt ‘British State’ past and do not recognise an opportunity for progress & change

    Agreed, but I separate voters from party seniors.

    I think it’s Labour supporters who don’t recognise this great opportunity and what it offers Scotland. Many might go for it if their eyes were open.

    However, I also think SLAB politicians DO recognise there is enormous potential for progressive change but as ultra-conservatives (small c) will fight tooth and nail to prevent it!

    A wedge needs to be driven between ordinary SLAB voters and most of their reactionary high heid yins.

  46. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    It’s the desperate wild ranting of someone whose ego exceeds his ability. In this case to run a successful campaign.

  47. Macart says:

    Perhaps Mr Darling would care to clarify?

    Which of course he won’t, there really is no other clarification necessary.

    Time to keep the heid though. Let them hang themselves with this shameful episode.

  48. Iain says:

    Of course this Darling piece should be an exemplar of what political interviews should be about (cf Salmond & Campbell): butter up pol, lull him/her into false sense of security, hoover up resultant indiscretions and infelicities and enjoy the resultant shitstorm. Unfortunately with Darling and Labour more generally, the BBC, Guardian, Staggers etc usually stop at the buttering up stage. The NS have managed (inadvertently) to go the whole hog this time though.

    I hope some less compliant interviewer rubs Darling’s nose in his own words next time he raises his head above the parapet (though there’s a fair chance he’ll be locked in a padded cell for the next 4 months).

    Darling 06/04/14:

    ‘“Now that has got to stop,” he said. “Indulging in name calling and shouting personal abuse has no part in a civilised society.”’

  49. desimond says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Thats probably what No want, set up a sacrificial lamb and if Oor Eck destroys him, paint him as a big Bully picking on that wee plucky guy who was only standing up for what he believed in, “isnt free speech allowed in Scotland anymore” is the angle Darling keeps pushing.

    Forget Darling, forget Cable, forget Alexander. As Mel gibson says in the movie Payback “You keep going up until you reach the person in control”. Cameron is the only game in town, anyone else is just wasting our time and energy.

  50. Brian Powell says:

    Morag,

    And of course if anyone looks in the dictionary the word gauleiter means,

    “a person in a position of petty or local authority who behaves in an overbearing authoritarian manner”, which fits the context of that discussion.

  51. After Iraq, Darling seems kinda sick to be throwing accusations of ethnic cleansing versus SNP on the 70th Anniversary of the 2nd WORLD WAR, when my father and his brothers laid their lives on the line to oppose the fascism of Nazi`s and their propaganda machine that today is being replicated by none other than the same muppets who bought the dodgy dossier and led us into a coalition of the willing that murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children in Brown and DARLING`S Illegal war in Iraq.

    Who will sue this mad muppet and the propaganda machines of the state broadcaster and MSM who promote this libel.

    Where is the LAW courts and the Police – if anyone else broadcast this drivel versus Muslim,RC,Protestant,Jewish, or any other section of society, the Law would act.

    Given Darling`s recent history – pot, kettle,black.

    SNP – AS A PARTY SHOULD SUE DARLING AND BT.
    Bankrupt both.

  52. gavin lessells says:

    I suspect that what this is really about is a clumsy attempt by Darling to excuse the reluctance of BT to enter fair debate because they are being subjected to threats by the nasty Nats.
    They need some sort of an excuse to explain their unwillingness to debate a subject they know they will lose.

  53. Blair paterson says:

    Someone posted that darling hates his fellow scots well that is not the case as he is English as I have pointed out before he will always put his own countries interests first vote yes

  54. Nana Smith says:

    Is there a body other than the EC which could be called upon to oversee during this campaign period.
    I fear we are being shafted by Westminster aided by the media.

    As someone stated yesterday the yes campaign need to step up their game.

  55. gordoz says:

    @galamcennalath

    Spot on and a personal work in progress during canvassing.

    Can be a hard slog sometimes (very hard to eradicate brainwashing & irrational / almost football like allegiance).

    But once conversations are started and discussions entered then …

  56. desimond says:

    We really need Duggie on to explain how this is all related to the power-crazed SNP wanting to take Scotland into Europe and Nato!

  57. Cath says:

    Is there a reason I’ve missed why you can’t link YouTube videos in comments?

  58. gordoz says:

    Brian Powell says:

    And of course if anyone looks in the dictionary the word gauleiter means,

    “a person in a position of petty or local authority who behaves in an overbearing authoritarian manner”

    Agreed:

    And thats exactly why the FM threw that cutting description out there but in the hands of our oh so non- hostile MSM …..

  59. JLT says:

    After the song and dance that the Unionists did around Salmond over Putin, make no bones about it, this is worse!

    Firstly, Darling is basically saying that 50% of Scots are pure racists are heart, and are determined on a course of ridding all those who aren’t Scottish. This is absolute nonsense.

    Secondly, this is coming from a man who is a Scot. So to hear it coming from a Scot, and knowingly doing it, is deeply offensive.

    Thirdly, what Salmond said, and what Darling said are poles apart as offensiveness can get. Salmond basically praised Putin for raising the respect that is now apparent within Russia and the world itself, but what Darling has said is racially offensive, and worse, of his own people to boot.

    Personally, Darling can apologise, and we should accept, but as to his position in the campaign …well, I think Darling has no choice but to resign from Better Together. I think his position is now untenable in the circumstances.

    However, if Better Together believe that they want to keep the man, so be it, but he will only serve as a reminder of what he said of his own people. This is now a stained blot that won’t go away no matter how BT and their media pals try to erase it.

  60. Gillie says:

    Perhaps at heart Darling is just a “böse kleine Schleimkugel”.

  61. By the way

    Who thinks the”Chilcot Report” will be published – BEFORE – Sept.18th 2014.?

  62. Steve says:

    “Labour’s Iain Gray astonishingly attempted to pass Darling’s comments off as a “joke”.” That would be the same same Ian Gray that made the gaffe about twice linking Montenegro to ethnic cleansing. Maybe he was joking too.. You couldn’t make it up!

  63. Helena Brown says:

    @ desimond says: We really need Duggie on to explain how this is all related to the power-crazed SNP wanting to take Scotland into Europe and Nato!
    Naw, please Naw, just no gonny dae that.
    That gentleman is driving us all insane and one more word from him will probably drive me over the edge today.

  64. jon esquierdo says:

    I have complained to the electoral commission about this. They state that it is their responsibility to set the standards

  65. Jim Mitchell says:

    It means that they are becoming even more worried than before.

    Any old hand knows that’s the way many unionists, especially labour ones act when they feel the heat is on, it’s up to us to keep it on!

    We can use drivel like this to our own advantage.

  66. Cath says:

    Was trying to post a link to the 5 million questions, with Salmond talking about immigration. What’s striking is how different his tone and words are compared to those UK politicians who ape and pander to the UKIP and Daily Mail hate campaigns. For that same political elite to be accusing him, and the SNP of blood and soil nationalism is Orwellian re-writing of the truth in the extreme.

    Anyway, I’ve said for a while that running a negative campaign, along US lines will backfire for Better Together, because the vote is only in Scotland, and the kind of “othering” they’re doing is against only people in Scotland, and being done by London. That crosses a line way beyond “negative campaigning” as done in the US, into oppression. It ONLY works if you those you’re demonising are a small enough minority that enough people will believe what they read about them to vote your way.

    In the Better Together case, they’ve been very successful in creating the dangerous situation where people in England who know nothing about Scotland believe what they’re reading in the Mail and Telegraph. But for those in Scotland, the people being demonised are often us ourselves, or if not, our friends and family. Even if you’re a no or an undecided, having people you know, and you know are good people demonised in such a way isn’t going to endear you to the cause of the people doing it.

  67. pro-loco says:

    “Blood and soil” still present in the BBC version:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27696811

  68. Les Wilson says:

    Bella also going with this, and calls for an apology or a resignation from Darling.

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/06/05/an-inaudible-mumble/

  69. Helena Brown says:

    @Blair Paterson, Alistair Darling, I would love it if he was English, he was born in London to Scots Parents which is my understanding. A little like his master Blair was born in Glasgow but not to Scots parents. We unfortunately cannot have it both ways.
    The man is just one of the many who should be regarded as a ("Tractor" - Ed) to his countrymen/women, as there is no other word for those who sell their nation to another for preferment or money and in his case it is both.

  70. James Dow A voice from the diaspora says:

    Reply Ian Brotherhood Why would Alex want to destroy such a valuable free asset such as our darling Alistair. Alex already “owns him” big time. More strength to Alistair’s arm I say and a lot more out of his mouth to out do any thing he has come up with to date. Don’t tire Alistair your just getting warm. Keep up the good work. An Elephant stamp for your latest effort.

  71. Grouse Beater says:

    Most of Darling’s contributions to the debate have been shrill, close to the edge, invariably contradictory.

    You cannot convince people to follow advice when your entire argument is, “Of course Scotland could survive as an independent country, I just happen to think that isn’t desirable.”

    You leave listeners wondering if you have any concrete empirical evidence to offer or is it only personal opinion supported by a set of prejudices.

    As the Yes vote gains empathy and adherents Darling’s opinion, and others who think like him, will get more and more panic stricken. In the end he will say anything.

    He is left feeling he has to save his reputation by any means possible.

  72. We Are All Bourgeois Now says:

    Shocking comments, but does it really matter?

    I mean, of course it matters, but to the no voters, and the undecided, who don’t follow all the ins and outs of the “debate”, is this really going to have an effect? I fear this will be spun as “nasty cybernats complaining again”.

    I’m worried that common sense is not prevailing. People are still going on about “not liking Alex Salmond, we can’t afford it, what currency will we use, we won’t be able to bail out the banks, we won’t get another chance if it all goes wrong, etc etc etc…”

    How to we get through to these people? We’ve given them the answers but they just don’t want to see or listen, or don’t believe! I’m worried and disheartened. Someone cheer me up please!

  73. JLT says:

    Steve says:

    “Labour’s Iain Gray astonishingly attempted to pass Darling’s comments off as a “joke”.” That would be the same Ian Gray that made the gaffe about twice linking Montenegro to ethnic cleansing.

    Good point.

  74. desimond says:

    “Dear Alistair, if we’re aw virus riddled cyber-threatening nazi’s, why exactly are you wanting to hold onto us then?”

  75. Cath says:

    “The man is just one of the many who should be regarded as a ("Tractor" - Ed) to his countrymen/women”

    I’ve always hated any use of the word “("Tractor" - Ed)” in this respect. The discussion is about whether Scotland should control her own affairs, as a normal, sovereign nation. It’s perfectly valid to have the opinion that no, it shouldn’t. If you were born in London or Edinburgh or whatever to parents from some other country of the UK, and see yourself as British and your country as UK, that’s fine. To someone like that, they may as well see those wanting individual UK nations to run their own affairs as “("Tractor" - Ed)s” to the UK – an equally offensive and invalid term.

    However I’m beginning to see the word as valid in other contexts. For example, you can be a ("Tractor" - Ed) to your class, and you can be a ("Tractor" - Ed) to your constituents. If you’re supposed to be speaking for a certain group, but instead speak against them, and try to damage them and their interests, you are a ("Tractor" - Ed) to that group. It’s hard not to see calling your own constituents Nazis and deliberately trying to stir up hatreds and ethnic tensions, when they are trying hard to avoid them, in that way.

  76. jon esquierdo says:

    We Are All Bourgeois Now. You are 100% correct about common sense but how do you educate the uneducated?

  77. Capella says:

    Wee Ginger Du also has an excellent post on this here
    http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/a-fishy-smell-from-sweden/
    The only real journalsts now are on the blogs.

  78. Luigi says:

    Winners don’t indulge in deranged rants, but losers do.

    Good point.

  79. Jim Marshall says:

    Helena Brown

    “The man is just one of the many who should be regarded as a ("Tractor" - Ed) to his countrymen/women, as there is no other word for those who sell their nation to another for preferment or money and in his case it is both.”

    There are other words Helena, ("Quizmaster" - Ed) being the first that springs to mind.

  80. seanair says:

    I’m vewwy, vewwy pwoud that a Scottish school ( Loretto) could produce such successful men as Alistair Darling, Norman Lamont, Andrew Marr, who are proving to be the saviours of the Union, with their knowledge of how awful these Nats are.
    Special praise should go Alistair, who got an A-level in Trotskyism so that he could recognise Nazism and Korean Despotism when he sees them. Well done boys–only one in the Lords so far, but I’ve heard a rumour….

  81. bookie from hell says:

    WantonWampum. says:
    5 June, 2014 at 10:51 am
    By the way

    Who thinks the”Chilcot Report” will be published – BEFORE – Sept.18th 2014.?

    chilnot report

  82. Luigi says:

    Alistair Darling has just succeeded in offending that large group of people (according to BT) who voted SNP in 2011, but are (or were) inclined to vote NO in September.

    What does Mr Darling consider these potential NO voters to be:

    Deluded idiots? Naive fools?

  83. gordoz says:

    Can the BBC & STV be considered as bastions of ‘any kind’ of journalism or ‘public scrutiny’ if they too air-brush or duck this howler from Darling ???

    Might watch both news shows tonight to see if this comes up .. naahhh couldn’t put my wife through the rest of their lies and rubbish.

  84. Bawheid Bragg says:

    Spot on as usual. We should also remind those Quisling Cretins in the No camp (just joking!!) when they bring up the Putin remarks that the UK government granted more than £80m of weapons to Russia last year.

  85. Dougie says:

    Two things that stuck out yesterday for me was A Darling claiming salmond said English this was backed up by Iain Grey at no time did he Salmond say that regarding BBC but hey it makes Yes seem Anti English and.
    No journalist questioned this
    Its lazy and misleading and deliberate
    Secondly Queens speech
    Government expects a extra 200 billion barrels of oil in next two decades
    Thats a hell of a lot of Revenue
    DOUGIE

  86. Taranaich says:

    Whether the New Statesman releases the audio and lets us judge just how “inaudible” Darling’s subsequent comments were or not, Darling had already made plain the allegation that the SNP, and by extension the entire Yes campaign, is founded on the basis of racism.

    Sadly, I’ve heard this one before. Really didn’t think even Darling would stoop so low, but there it is.

    Anyway…

    Darling: At heart . . . [inaudible mumble] If you ask any nationalist, ‘Are there any circumstances in which you would not vote to be independent?’ they would say the answer has got to be no.”

    Of course, if you ask any unionist, I’m sure they’d be entirely reasonable and suggest there were, in fact, some circumstances in which they would not vote to remain part of the union. It’s just not yet. Not while we still have only 1 in 5 Scots kids in poverty – maybe wait until it’s 1 in 3? Not while we have only 90,000 people using foodbanks – let’s leave it till that’s a million? Not while we’re only the 3rd most unequal nation on the planet – surely we should stay put until we’re the 1st?

    Sorry Mr. Darling, there ARE circumstances in which I would not vote to be independent. If being independent meant Scotland would vanish and be transported to the future where the world was about to end, then I’d vote to remain in the UK. If voting Yes meant Scotland would sink under the waves and become a New Atlantis, then I’d vote to remain in the UK. If voting Yes meant Scotland would have to swap Westminster rule from, say, Kazakhstan, then I’d vote to remain in the UK.

    Thing is, none of those things are going to happen. None of the possibilities of an independent Scotland – and I’m including your dunderheided scare stories about oil running out in 2017 – are remotely scary enough to make me vote to remain in a UK whose prospects are far, FAR scarier.

    And you damned well know it, Mr. Darling.

  87. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    @Craig says:
    Ahem…
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_nationalism

    They missed out Cybernationalism.

    🙂

  88. Liquid Lenny says:

    Cath

    You can post Youtube links here just take out everything before the www so no http etc.

  89. Dr Ew says:

    I’m afraid it does matter. BT lost the political debate some time ago and Project Fear is being ramped up to a level of viciousness beyond anything we normally experience in UK discourse. They justify this to themselves by saying there is more at stake in this referendum than ever before.

    This is not aimed at converting Yes supporters, it’s about demonising us to such an extent that the apolitical and the undecideds are too fearful to even consider Yes. It is also about laying the groundwork for the obliteration of the SNP post-vote, as well as a dimunition of the effectiveness of the Scottish Parliament. THey want to ensure this never happens again.

    It is incredibly difficult not to get angry at these slurs, especially when compounded by a complicit media, but the only way we can win this vote is to take a very deep breath and rise above it. We can show by our actions and our interactions with people on the doorstep, on the street and in the workplace we are democrats, and in fact more anti-racist than any of the four largest parties in the UK. We can fight back by pursuing them on these slanders at public meetings because between now and then, BT are going to be forced to attend debates.

    I am seething about these insults – and all the other right-wing connotations they seek to hook onto the Yes – but rising to the bait will do us no good whatsoever.

  90. CameronB Brodie says:

    As HMG Better Together appear to like GQ magazine, I thought this blast from the past might inform and amuse. 🙂

    Alistair Darling: There are constraints on you as chancellor and as an MP. You have to be careful because you’re holding public office. I choose my words carefully. One wrong word can have a disastrous effect.

    http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/comment/articles/2011-05/27/gq-comment-piers-morgan-alastair-darling/viewall

  91. Les Wilson says:

    Thinking of A. Salmond’s response to this.

    I think Alex has let his purpose slip.In that, he requested an apology and NOT a resignation. Why, he loves Darling being just where he is, exactly for things like this.

    He is a crafty politician right enough, power to his elbow!

  92. Jim Marshall says:

    Calgacus

    Now I”m wondering if cybernattery and cybernationalism are the same thing.

  93. Papadox says:

    IMHO

    This charade of a referendum will come crashing down not on the 19/9/14 but very shortly after the UK election next year, when the austerity bomb is detonated by whoever. Then the referendum proper will explode. What happens then?

  94. Jeannie says:

    Re the Telegraph article by Alan Cochrane, you can speak to Cockers directly tonight at Waterstones in Sauchiehall St in Glasgow. YesNo discussion and it’s free.Starts at 6.

  95. mai parks says:

    There are lots of people who may vote YES , but because of this , they now won’t. I have spoken to people who say the word NATIONAL in SNP makes them think of Hitler! This constant referral to Mr Salmond in this manor only reinforces that . Not nice.

  96. Les Wilson says:

    Sorry further to previous, by and large very many Scots, Yes or no, will feel it is an insult too far and will produce further move to YES.
    Some of course do not “like” Alex, due to the repetitive tv and general Media campaign to vilify him,said enough the gullible do not realise this is all to “steal their vote”
    by making him something he is’nt.

    I think it is probably the final insult for many, who will disassociate themselves now from the Bitter Together hapless mob.

  97. Schrodingers Cat says:

    o/t
    Mr Kipling comes out in favour of No
    he said yesterday “absolutely agree”

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/04/hsbc-chairman-douglas-flint-backs-no-campaign-scottish-independence

    while Mr Kipling no longer actually makes any cakes, he has a ruddy great factory in china to do this for him, one thing is certain…..Mr Kipling, does make exceedingly………large amounts of money

  98. MajorBloodnok says:

    I always remember that dictum “never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake”, so consequently we don’t need to interrupt the Unionists at all often.

  99. David Agnew says:

    I keep being amazed by this “campaign” to promote how better together we are. There really does seem to be no depths they won’t stoop to. They have not just attacked Salmond – they have attacked every yes voter, their families, and their friends. This so demented that I could never, ever, place my trust in people who think this way. I will vote yes because to vote no would be to put Team Stupid and Team Evil in charge of Scotland’s future for a generation. That prospect scares me shitless.

  100. Helena Brown says:

    Jim Marshall says: There are other words Helena, ("Quizmaster" - Ed) being the first that springs to mind.

    Quisling ain’t strong enough Jim. He is another one who would happily sell his granny for soap to make money. Disgusting man.

  101. iheartScotland says:

    @Dr Ew,
    Agree wholeheartedly,could you please apologise to my neighbours for my foul mouth for the last half hour ;
    🙂

  102. gordoz says:

    @ Schrodingers Cat / HSBC boss

    Scottish Citizens & voters remember – when your employer bosses back the No campaign and attempt to scare you off your right to democracy; it is for the pure love of lining their own pockets.

    Greed is good after all isn’t that what all tories say ?

    Business is Business,(they might make a little less money but they’re not going anywhere), remember it might just mean a little more in everyones pocket.

  103. desimond says:

    @les Wilson

    Why would Alex Salmond ask for a resignation when Darling said all this in the context of representing the UKOK Campaign and nothing to do with his position as an Edinburgh MP.

    That would be like the No campaign saying all YES posters online are fanatical SNP members and should be instructed on how to behave themselves from on high by Alex Salmond and we all know that that clearly would never happen.

  104. donald anderson says:

    Lenin spoke of the nationalism of the oppressed and the nationalism of the oppressor. Guess who’s who?

    There is a tendency among some of the left in the Yes camp to say, “…but we’se ur no’ nationalists”. They were quite happy to be left Brit Nationalists all these years.

  105. desimond says:

    @Shrodngers cat

    Would that be this HSBC?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-how-private-firms-make-quick-killing-from-pfi-9488351.html

    What a surprise they like Unionist Party ideals!

  106. HandandShrimp says:

    I think what annoys me most is that it is Darling that almost in every interview these days spends more time talking about how nasty the Yes people are and intimidated the rest of Scotland is than he does about any case for the Union while at the same time bad mouthing all and sundry. He is the biggest culprit in this whole campaign. It actually became a lot more pleasant when he was, for whatever reason, off the scene. It is he who keeps dragging the thing down to the level of personal abuse.

  107. No no no...Yes says:

    The interview was by a BT friendly New Statesman and Darling is a seasoned politician. So in the unlikely scenario they set a trap, he would normally be too smart to fall for it. He is clearly not up to the job. The genie is out the bottle and the only was this can be resolved is for the audio to be made public.

    Publish- Darling is finished in politics.
    Don’t publish- News Statesman credibility damaged, allegations of cover up, massive PR damage for BT.
    Either way, it is win win for the YES campaign. Perhaps the YES tactic of giving enough rope is working? This is also a real test for BBC Scotland given their AS/Putin treatment went for days on end. Will they pass or fail?

  108. Grouse Beater says:

    At major annual social gathering ain London yesterday:

    Husband: So, what’s your view of the independence debate?
    Me: The Ayes have it.
    He: (Laughs) Very good.
    Wife: (In anger) You’re not getting our stuff!
    Me: Not sure what you mean by “stuff.”
    She Our subsidies.
    Me We signed a one-sided treaty that gave you our “stuff.” We’re entitled to a share.
    She: We’re not just going to hand it over.
    Me: You know, I’m fed up discussing this issue with people who have no say but are determined to utter their opinion. Is Scotland your country, madam?
    She: Of course not.
    Me: Just as well.
    Crowds and noise over-powering, I move off elsewhere.

  109. Schrodingers Cat says:

    …..says Alisdair Darling, the leader of actually existing grass roots organisation “beano characters for No” and head of the Terry Fukcwit party…..

  110. Cath says:

    This is the Salmond 5 million questions interview. It’s well worth watching the whole thing but the immigration answer starts at about 29 minutes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kiatf_Nt3nI

  111. Jeannie says:

    I’m getting really fed up with Unionists accusing us of racism. The fact that voting inthe referendum is open to anyone who lives here is clear evidence that there is no ethnic element imvolved. I think it’s time that David Cameron amd Ed Milliband also made clear whether the right to vote im their in-out referendum on Europe will be extended to everyone living in the UK at the time or will it be restricted ethnically. I wonder what UKIP will say.

  112. Cath says:

    And thanks for the tip, Liquid Lenny!

  113. Derek M says:

    well well well i wonder who bitter together will compare wee eck with next they are running out of nasty people will it be pol pot or joe stalin maybe hitler? i know the two nasties they wont compare him to Thatcher and Blair.
    As for flipper what a total moron and this is the kind of politician we are meant to believe will help Scotland inside the UK.

  114. gordoz says:

    @Grouse Beater

    You’re way too polite !

  115. katsoft says:

    19 Sept after a YES vote could I use ‘ethnic nationalism’ to ban all humans who resemble Badgers from domicile in Scotland.
    However it is now time for the SNP and YES campaign to start on the offensive. Too much energy is being spent trying to rebut questions and ‘facts’ which could not be answered by Westminster never mind a possible future indie Scots Government. Stop sitting there and start hitting back. We’ve all got to try 150% to overcome the exagerated national unionist leanings of the media, shame to say worse with supposed Scottish media.

  116. heedtracker says:

    Here in Aberdeen the Press and Journal does report Flippers “blood and soil” thing which is interesting in itself as it’s shows Darling’s targeted market, the right wing media up here.

    P&J says it’s all just a row but why would phoney old Guardian chicken out of even mention Darling’s fascist YES vote attack in England, yet local P&J with 70k daily sales up here goes for all of it?

    P&J headline “Row as Darling compares Salmond to North Korean leader” seems tame then their charming Cameron Brooks gives all the detail that even national news won’t report. All of which probably shows the all new tactical thinking going on in BetterTogether now. P&J plonks huge converage of very worried looking Swedish PM against Scotland voting Yes as it means the usual ‘Balkanising British Isles’ no byline strangely enough.

    P&J’s parenthesis there too but some relatively spohiscated Press and Journal vote NO or else frighteners now going on up here or they are just getting even creepier at Aberdeen Journals.

  117. galamcennalath says:

    OT Opinion polls. Have we had any recently which were a relatively unbiased measure of voting intentions on 18th Sept? It seems to have gone quiet.

  118. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Jim Marshall says:

    The French called them Collabos. That works for me.

  119. scottish_skier says:

    @Jeannie

    think it’s time that David Cameron and Ed Miliband also made clear whether the right to vote in their in-out referendum on Europe will be extended to everyone living in the UK

    At the moment I understand it is proposed only British people can vote, ergo it’s an ethnic nationalist referendum on British independence. So if you are a French citizen like Mrs SS who owns property, has been working and paying taxes here for many years, you don’t get a say and could in theory find yourself an illegal immigrant.

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2013-2014/0011/cbill_2013-20140011_en_2.htm

  120. sinky says:

    BBC still ignore darlings comments on blood and soil nationalism and will be air blushed out of history by the British establishment

  121. jon esquierdo says:

    A few months ago I was chastised by one of the wings readers for calling Alastair Darling a fockwit and I had to unreservedly apologise for calling him a fockwit and state that I would never call him a fockwit again. I honestly wish to call him a fockwit again

  122. Oneironaut says:

    @Cath
    Youtube links can still be posted, but you need to remove the “http://” bit at the start. I think there’s some sort of filter on here that’s removing them.

    Interesting posts by the way. Good way of looking at it there.
    I think this has gotten a lot of people riled up, which I believe was the entire point of it.

    Since the very beginning, BT have been trying to push the line that Yes voters are all potentially violent English-hating separatist hooligans at heart who will likely explode into a destructive riot any day now.
    Time passed and it turned out that the “vile cybernats” were actually just ordinary everyday people who didn’t hate the English at all, who didn’t want to break and burn everything in sight or beat up anyone who disagreed with them.

    This really wasn’t what the establishment wanted. They needed an excuse to get the masses on their side. They needed to try to anger the “nats” to the point where they would get angry and respond in kind, whereupon their media puppets would point a camera in the direction of the rampaging mob and triumphantly shout “See? We told you they were dangerous lunatics!”

    So far their attempts to wind us up haven’t worked so far, hence the occasional desperate attempt at a false-flag op, like whining about abuse on Twitter and forums and so on (that strangely never seems to leave any noticeable evidence!)

    I think Darling knew full well what he was doing. Only a complete idiot would have deliberately allowed that remark to be published and then waited a bit before “hastily” attempting to cover it up.
    He knew people would have seen it, and word would be spreading, and tempers would be flaring.

    It’s just a wind-up folks. Don’t get angry at him. Just laugh in his face. That’ll get to him even more 😉

  123. The Rough Bounds says:

    Here is a little piece of information that will come in handy next time you get accused of being a ‘Nazi’ and other similar insults.

    The Nazi Swasika was used as a symbol in the first world war NOT by the Germans, but by the BRITISH.

    It was emblazoned on the front of the savings stamp books of the ‘War Savings Association’,(affiliated to the National War Savings Committee), and on the very savings stamp coupons that were issued. You stuck each coupon you received into a savings book. Each coupon cost sixpence.
    They were still being used by at least January 1918.

    So remember folks: The British used the Swastika first. What was that about blood and soil Mr. Darling?

  124. Les Wilson says:

    desimond says

    Well you are both right and wrong, YES he heads the Bitter Together team, so should resign that. However, he is also an elected MP so, firstly he is not doing his job for his voters by being so involved in said BITTER TOGETHER, that it would be impossible for him to do this effectively.
    However as I pointed out just why Alex would NOT as for his resignation. So what exactly is your argument??

    The fact that his involvement with this nasty entity betrays the trust his voters have put in him. So you tell me if he should resign for that? Hmm,not that he would as he is raking it in.

  125. gerry parker says:

    @ rough bounds,
    They made another a nasty little invention during the Boer War too ISTR>

  126. James Kay says:

    TRB

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Savings_Movement

    Thank you for giving me some new information!

  127. manandboy says:

    I am aware that this is not on today’s menu

    I just keep being reminded of that number 800,000.

    Please read on:

    CRAIG MURRAY http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

    On EU elections – UKIP – Postal Voting

    “New Labour won almost nowhere except London. It is the party of London., with a leader who has never in his life lived outside London.
    But it is a fascinating fact that of all the class, educational, geographical and other statistics you can correlate with New Labour success,
    the factor with the strongest correlation of all with the New Labour share of the vote
    is the prevalence of postal voting.

    New Labour can win only where the system is open widest to abuse through massive scale electoral fraud.

    Some of this is straight fraud – postal ballots being given to ghost voters, non-existent people on the register. That is very much more prevalent than you probably imagine.

    But mostly it operates through the deprivation of the privacy of the polling booth. In a polling station nobody is supposed to be allowed to look over your shoulder (although there were disgraceful scenes in places in Tower Hamlets, Wood Green and Newham).

    But if you receive your ballot paper in your home, you are extremely vulnerable if you live in a situation where others are able to enter your home and demand to check that you have voted the right way before you post your ballot.

    That is beyond doubt the situation both of many family members, particularly affecting women, and of certain highly hierarchical and patriarchal communities.

    Postal ballot distortion is an absolutely disgraceful blot on British political culture.

    It is also fundamental to New Labour’s ability to salvage something from a disastrous electoral performance.”

    800,000 spare ballot papers were printed for the Referendum
    ‘in case of loss or damage’

  128. Lou Nisbet says:

    So on the very day that the ConDem government releases the news that the first secret court in the UK has been held Darling arranges for a different headline in Scotland.

    So tell me MR Darling who is MOST like North Korea now?

  129. CameronB Brodie says:

    Not this HSBC?

    HSBC to pay $1.9bn in US money laundering penalties
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20673466

    HSBC money laundering report: Key findings
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18880269

    HSBC faces new money laundering claims in Argentina
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21840052

    HSBC’s $1.9 Billion Money Laundering Fine And the Somalian Cost Of Bank Regulation
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/08/hsbcs-1-9-billion-money-laundering-fine-and-the-somalian-cost-of-bank-regulation/

    Is Anybody Listening? HSBC Continues to Launder Money for Terrorist Groups Says Whistleblower
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marni-halasa/is-anybody-listening-hsbc_b_3831412.html

    There’s lot of similar reports but I didn’t want you to think I was showboating. 🙂

  130. desimond says:

    @Les Wilson

    I think you have mistaken me for someone who gives a f*ck about Alistair Darling

  131. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.S. Re. AD. Has anyone been brave enough to last the 10 hour of Trolololo Lol, that I posted last might? 🙂

  132. muttley79 says:

    The Nazi/fascist smear against the SNP has been used by sections of the British Labour Party for decades. Neil Kinnock called the SNP “fascists” in the House of Commons (it is recorded in Hansard), and more recently Davidson called the SNP “neo-fascists”, while Ann Moffat implied the election of the SNP in 2007 was reminiscent of Hitler coming to power. We also had Lamont’s “virus” smear, which was what the Nazis labelled Jewish people in Germany. Darling is only following in this tradition. There is a toxic British nationalism at the heart of a section of SLAB, who are fighting to maintain their careers and privileges in London.

  133. Les Wilson says:

    manandboy says:

    Yes Craig points out what is becoming even more obvious about the serious faults in the postal vote system.
    I am not certain at all that the E/Commission would know how to investigate this, there is so much of it.

    It is sure to be a factor in the referendum, where they have the perhaps no heart nor the will to seek the problems out and deal with them.
    I have no faith in them at all. We need International unbiased monitors installed, now, or very soon.

  134. Les Wilson says:

    desimond says

    Not by your first comment.
    Or maybe you just phrased it wrong!, glad you cleared that up though!

  135. Nana Smith says:

    @Les Wilson

    Not sure if this would be the organisation to approach.

  136. James Morton says:

    Now this is not for the faint of heart. What you are about to see are some people who have stapled their tongues to Gordon Browns arse. This is a perfect example of just how swivel eyed the No campaign actually is. Prepare for sickness.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/jun/04/gordon-brown-scottish-independence-referendum-no?CMP=twt_gu

  137. Jeannie says:

    @scottish skier

    Thanks for the info. It’s exactly what I expected. So our Scottish government takes a civic approach to its referendum and gets accused of nazism and racism while Westminster openly proposes to restrict voting in their European referendum on ethnic grounds and are held up as icons of democracy. Surely all party leaders should be challenged to defend this position ahead of both the Indy referendum and the 2015 general election!

  138. G H Graham says:

    When Alistair “Flipper” Darling asserts that Alex Salmond & his supporters of independence are racist Nazis or a mirror of the slavish recruits to the Totalitarian eutopia of Kim Jong Il, presumably he is implying that “the problem with the Jews/South Koreans” should be transposed with “the problem with the English.”

    The Nazi’s came up with a response to their problem in the 1940’s & called it, “The Final Solution”.

    What exactly then does Alistair “Flipper” Darling make of the fact that their are dozens if not hundreds of English & indeed other ethnic members of the Scottish National Party?

  139. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, forgot this one.

    Exclusive: HSBC still in regulators’ crosshairs over money-laundering
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/08/hsbcs-1-9-billion-money-laundering-fine-and-the-somalian-cost-of-bank-regulation/

  140. a2 says:

    Is that Alan Chocrine admitting he is contractually obliged to distort the situation? “But in saying that I’m bound to add…”

    If his article had ended after the second paragraph it might have been considered fair and balanced.

    Seems that these professional fouls will be the order of the day. I’m afraid they are working as the Nat-zi perception seems to be pretty well embedded.

    What I’m seeing though is that it’s most prevalent within the section of society that might be most supportive of actual National socialism if it weren’t stigmatised which is a bit confusing but at least has a positive side to it.

  141. CameronB Brodie says:

    Got my headlines mixed up there, I meant this one.

    Exclusive: HSBC still in regulators’ crosshairs over money-laundering
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-hsbc-moneylaundering-exclusive-idUSBREA0G1KQ20140117

  142. mjaei says:

    The ‘At heart’ is undeniably an affirmative response to the question: ‘What is it? Blood and soil nationalism?’

    Seems BetterTogether forgot to tell NS which part of Darling’s response he had inaudibly mumbled. I hope they release the audio of the full interview at some point so we can lay the whole thing to bed.

    Either way, we shouldn’t get too distracted ? the whole episode is an unpleasant sideshow & takes time away from laying out the positive case for independence.

  143. mjaei says:

    The ‘At heart’ is undeniably an affirmative response to the question: ‘What is it? Blood and soil nationalism?’

    Seems BetterTogether forgot to tell NS which part of Darling’s response he had inaudibly mumbled. I hope they release the audio of the full interview at some point so we can lay the whole thing to bed.

    Either way, we shouldn’t get too distracted ? the whole episode is an unpleasant sideshow & takes time away from laying out the positive case for independence.

  144. mjaei says:

    The ‘At heart’ is undeniably an affirmative response to the question: ‘What is it? Blood and soil nationalism?’

    Seems BetterTogether forgot to tell NS which part of Darling’s response he had inaudibly mumbled. I hope they release the audio of the full interview at some point so we can lay the whole thing to bed.

    Either way, we shouldn’t get too distracted ? the whole episode is an unpleasant sideshow & takes time away from laying out the positive case for independence.

  145. mjaei says:

    The ‘At heart’ is undeniably an affirmative response to the question: ‘What is it? Blood and soil nationalism?’

    Seems BetterTogether forgot to tell NS which part of Darling’s response he had inaudibly mumbled. I hope they release the audio of the full interview at some point so we can lay the whole thing to bed.

    Either way, we shouldn’t get too distracted ? the whole episode is an unpleasant sideshow & takes time away from laying out the positive case for independence.

  146. Capella says:

    Darling and Co seem to be unaware that NAZI is short for National SOCIALIST Party. While nobody could accuse the Labour Pary of being socialist, it was once an aspiration and thus demonstrates the fallacy of taking Party names to mean what they say, as if the Conservatives conserve, Labour represents working people and the Liberals Democrats are liberal or democratic.

  147. mjaei says:

    Shit… my computer froze & I clicked the button a few times… hope you can remove those Rev.

  148. cirsium says:

    @Schrodingers Cat 11.34

    This is not news. Sir Douglas Flint donated £25k to BetterTogether last year. Where has The Guardian been?

  149. faolie says:

    (Quick) reply to my email to Alistair Darling, after being forwarded to the BT office. As the Rev points out above, the official line is now that it as a ‘transcription error’

    Thank you for your message. If I can point you to a correction made by the New Statesman whereby they clarified Mr Darling’s comments. You can access it via clicking here.

    Regards,

    Ben Carroll
    Operations
    Better Together

    ..inaudible mumble..

  150. Greannach says:

    Darling seems to be saying that all the Labour voters who have switched to the SNP over the past few years are now Blut und Boden nationalists, probably also infected by Lamont’s virus. Do this also apply to Labour for Independence people? And what about people who flip between (not homes, but) voting for Labour and the SNP then back again? Are they alternatively social progressives then ethnic neo-Nazis then social progressives again? Confusing.

    Darling’s public breakdown is getting a bit like Justin Bieber’s. Repellent and fascinating at the same time.

  151. Sinky says:

    inaudibly mumble … aye right!

    But the UK Establishment will gloss over the issue and do their usual BT bad news black out.

  152. SheepOnFire says:

    This is what UK GB want, need and do anything and everything to get and keep.

    UK GB are cornered and desperate, running out of resources and thus have no hard currency( = money).

    Scotland has all the resources, aka hard currency, aka the money: Oil, Gas, Coal, Whisky, Fish, AberdeenAngus, Water, Forests, Mountains, HydroElectric storage dams, and the big one they are not talking about much “vast Renewable Energy/Electricity”, which will start to boom in next 20years, forever.

    You can’t eat money(paper), it can end up as toilet paper as UK Pound did in WW2.
    USA would not take it as payment, because if Britain was invade by Hilter, the Pound would thereafter be obsolete and worthless.

    In WW2 before Americans were attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbour, and only then bringing USA into WW2.
    USA would not accept British banknotes, only accepting WHISKEY and GOLD as payment for trade goods(war munitions).

    The ship SS Politician in 1941 sinking in outer Hebrides(aka Whiskey Galore fame), had full whisky cargo, 28,000cases malt whisky(264,000bottles), and several million pounds banknotes(paper money) for Jamaica colony in case there was need of UK evacuation in the war(WW2).

    Found this on Facebook “Expats for Independence” Stephen Fleming link:
    “”Stephen Fleming shared Wallace Kerr Says Aye’s photo.
    29 May
    Here we have the full 18 page report mentioned on the “The biggest oil-field in the world lies to the west of Lewis” post tues 27th may:
    SCOTTISH ATLANTIC MARGIN OIL AND GAS : `THE GAME-CHANGER`
    William Cameron McLaughlin BA(Hons), MBA

    ….please please have a read and share, getting this info out there is really important thanks to Siobhan Taylor for this article.
    SCOTTISH ATLANTIC MARGIN OIL AND GAS ARTICLE.docx
    jist say aye

    https://word.office.live.com/wv/WordView.aspx?FBsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdownload%2Ffile_preview.php%3Fid%3D907037049323475%26time%3D1401263298%26metadata&access_token=1475982364%3AAVLT_3wfgDQe35GjSrXEqnG0rvOHb4TlE4_lRaX16aPxdw&title=SCOTTISH+ATLANTIC+MARGIN+OIL+AND+GAS+ARTICLE.docx

    i understand some folks are having probs with link
    i, hope this helps

    http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9967 — with Billy Inglis and 6 others.””

    Peak UK OilGas was 2000, in the BlairBrown uk Labour government! What did they do to plan for this change, seems NOTHING. Totally dangerously incompetent.

    ps. The Politics of Oil In Scotland by Euan Mearns
    http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9967

  153. Martin says:

    On the plus side, this smacks of panic. This is the “acceptable” 21st century equivalent of the horrors of the late campaign to hold on to India, or the genocide in Kenya that defines the UK when it senses imminent change. Because, despite what anyone tells us, the UK has and always will be conservative at heart, in the very truest sense.

    Secretly, Westminster would still love an empire of cheap disposable labour and natural resources to plunder. Be under no illusions that Scotland is viewed in those terms. Only more so, because we’re the last.

  154. Grendel says:

    Elaine Smith, Labour MSP for the People’s Democratic Republic of Coatbridge is spouting similar sentiments in this weeks Airdrie and Coatbridge Advertiser. Going back to World War Two, she paints the main Nationalists at the time as Nazi sympathisers, and asks if the party policy has ever changed. She truly is a gutter politican who has found her level.

  155. desimond says:

    @Cameron

    Private Eye had regular pieces covering former Govt adviser Lord Stephen Green and his wonderful HSBC goings-on

    http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/private-eye-on-hsbcs-%C2%A32bn-tax-avoidance-scheme.266156/

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9421288/HSBC-scandal-Lord-Green-avoids-peers-questions.html

    Apt for this week, note ‘the Conservative Leader of the House of Lords, Lord Strathclyde, insisted that there was “no evidence” that Lord Green had done anything wrong’

  156. heedtracker says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27696811 Interesting watching biggest bettertogether propganda machine trying to spin away Flippers you’re a Nazi if you vote YES stuff eg.
    BBC says here,

    “In the New Statesman interview, Mr Darling had originally been quoted as using the controversial phrase “blood-and-soil” about Scottish nationalism.

    The magazine later admitted the phrase had been used by the interviewer and issued a clarification, blaming a transcription error. A correction appeared online but the magazine has already gone to print.

    The expression “blood-and-soil” (‘Blut und Boden’) is German in origin and became a term associated with the Nazis.”

    So which is accurate then? BBC says “The magazine later admitted the phrase had been used by the interviewer and issued a clarification, blaming a transcription error.”

    But mag’s own transcript reads
    “NS: Salmond has successfully redefined the SNP as [representing] a civic nationalism . . .

    Darling: Which it isn’t . . .

    NS: But that’s what he says it is. Why do you say it isn’t? What is it? Blood and soil nationalism?

    Darling: At heart . . . [inaudible mumble] If you ask any nationalist, ‘Are there any circumstances in which you would not vote to be independent?’ they would say the answer has got to be no.”

    Flipper clearly agreeing with Nazi blood and soil, vote YES comparison/analogy/attack but BBC simply pretend that old Flipper didn’t.

  157. Suzanne says:

    Just whizzed this off to my MP. The House may be a good place to start looking for public condemnation of what he said.

    Dear XXXX

    You are a well-respected member of the Labour Party, and while I don’t share your politics I acknowledge what a good job you do and have done for Stirling. I admire your commitment to your constituency, as you know. I may not always agree with your voting, or with your views, but in a democracy we pull together and keep the dialogue going.

    What Alistair Darling has inferred about Alex Salmond and the SNP is a disgrace, both to mature political discourse and, surely, to the Labour Party. While we cannot know exactly what was said until the New Statesman (NS) publishes the tape, what appears to be the case, as published by NS goes thus:

    NS: “Salmond has successfully redefined the SNP as [representing] a civic nationalism.” .

    Darling: “Which it isn’t . . .”

    To accuse Alex Salmond and, by association, all the cross-party supporters who are campaigning for independence, of ethnic nationalism is one of the most disgraceful attacks you can make on a politician and the voting public when the opposite is so very clearly true. Without launching into campaign rhetoric, our campaign includes everyone across the board: all creeds, all nationalities, the whole cultural mix. We know Darling’s libellous comment isn’t true, but we also know that Westminster and the media are hellbent on suppressing the voice of the Yes campaign.

    I am therefore asking you, as my representative in Parliament and as a representative of the party to which Alistair belongs, to make a public statement in the House condemning his remarks as unworthy of a senior politician and as a member of the Labour Party. I would ask you to speak to your colleagues and gain their support in this.

    Politics is a dirty game, we all know that. However, Darling’s comments, in the middle of an historic campaign, are a disgrace to both Scottish and British politics.

    Thanks for your time, and I trust you’ll be able to voice your concern on our behalf.

  158. heedtracker says:

    So in view of that spectacular pack of BBC in Scotland lies about the Flipper and bettertogether again, the BBC wins my daily ukok vote no propaganda bullshit artist of the day mug for this terrific example plucked directly out of BBC school of concocted and completely bonkers lying, in the face of what actually happened, all on the one mug. Congrats!

    In the New Statesman interview, Mr Darling had originally been quoted as using the controversial phrase “blood-and-soil” about Scottish nationalism.

    The magazine later admitted the phrase had been used by the interviewer and issued a clarification, blaming a transcription error. A correction appeared online but the magazine has already gone to print.

  159. Lochside says:

    Why is Blair McDougal pictured at the top of this article?
    And why is he wearing his dress uniform?

  160. CameronB Brodie says:

    desimond
    IMO, the significance of the HSBC grew exponentially with the closure of the BCCI, which was vital to Operation Cyclone. The banking sector is the nexus of global terrorism and the international drug trade, and has been since the Opium Wars, Jardine Matheson & Co, David Sassoon & Co, etc.. So that really means Britain was not only the original narco-state, but that it continues to follow in this tradition. Rule Britannia.

  161. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Blut und boden would seem to apply more to some of the groups south of Scotland.

  162. Joe M says:

    @rev stu

    A very good piece of writing Stu, but you did miss out an one PR blunder by UKOK, at executive level, that questions their ideology.

    During a question and answer session, last Thursday, in the Newark-by-election debate, UK prime minister, David Cameron suggested an ethnic referendum.

    “He suggested that people living outside Scotland should have had a vote in the independence referendum.

    The franchise for this referendum was very much set by the Scottish parliament, and they decided to include Scottish people, all people living in Scotland, not Scots living in the rest of the United Kingdom. In many ways, that’s a source of regret. But it is their decision.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/jun/02/newark-byelection-politics-live-blog

  163. galamcennalath says:

    @Joe M

    Good point. Every time someone talks of Scots-born Scots outside Scotland being allowed to vote, they are revealing their own ‘blood and soil’ mindset!

  164. scottish_skier says:

    Labour have previously called for Scotland’s referendum to be ethnic in nature by arguing being ‘blood & soil’ Scottish should qualify your for a vote rather than residency.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16607480

    Scottish independence: SNP dismisses expat voting call

    Scottish ministers have dismissed calls to give Scots living outside Scotland a vote in the independence referendum.

    Labour MSP Elaine Murray said it was “massively unfair” they should be stopped from having their say in such an important decision.

  165. Joe M says:

    One line of Cameron’s statement which stands out, in my eyes, is

    “In many ways, that’s a source of regret.”

    In a week in which we have been attacked by 2 Nordic right wingers over “Balkanisation” and by this “blood and soil” rhetoric from Darling, there would seem to be a coordinated effort to push the racism and terrorism messages.

    Is Cameron’s regret that a civic referendum has denied them the high ground on a time-tabled attack? Or, is he really that naïve?

  166. Nana Smith says:

    so Medhi doesn’t bother checking the facts either,should I be at all surprised

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/04/mehdis-morning-memo_175_n_5447903.html

  167. Andy-B says:

    Talk about patronising this surely takes the biscuit.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10877770/Eat-more-fish-and-chips-and-bovril-if-you-Scots-stay-in-the-Union-say-patronising-officials.html

    It won’t be long now till Alistair Darling starts accusing the SNP of using the “Scorched earth policy”.

  168. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Anyone fancy offering odds on Newsdrive managing to cover Mumblegate without actually using the words ‘blood’ and/or ‘soil’?

  169. Training Day says:

    @Andy B

    No mention of sausage rolls. Ryan in the BT video said they were a main benefit of the Union.

    Were you lying to us Ryan???

  170. Brian MacLeod says:

    SO how about those of use who are not “Nationalists”?

    You know, those of us who believe in democracy?

    And democracy is not something that exists in the UK at the moment, just the illusion of it.

    I’m voting for control over our affairs and to get rid of stuff like the House of Lords.

  171. Jeannie says:

    I wonder how many european union citizens living in Scotland and intending to vote No in the independence referendum realise that they will not be allowed to vote in the European referendum – the one which will ultimately determine whether or not they will be able to continue to live here – might be worth pointing this out to them.

  172. Derek M says:

    @ Brian you are so right there mate we do not live in a democracy just a pretend one we actually live in a plutocracy

  173. dramfineday says:

    What makes my teeth grate, when I hear or read stuff like this associating the First minister of Scotland with (insert dictator of choice), is the casual denigration of the dead of these murderous regimes.

    Daring should really know better, as should the weak minded individuals that repeat it or indeed try and explain it away as a “joke”.

    In their minds the dead are of no consequence, their suffering and end to be forgotten in the hot pursuit of a foul gibe.

    Well, in my book there is only one suitable label for those who forget the dead at the hands of the murderous, and that is “denier”. Not such a “joke” now is it?

  174. Jeannie says:

    In the UK, we elect governments on an unrepresentative, first-past-the-post system, our second house is completely unelected and our head of state holds her position by reason of inherited right. Is it any wonder that when the UK parades around the world advising other countries on how to set up a democracy, we’re told where to shove it?

  175. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Newsdrive is running with:

    Obama’s ‘support’ for BTUKOK

    Lockerbie

    Trams

    Embarrassing Dads

    First half-hour almost done.

    Surely, SURELY, they’re not going to try and get away with completely blanking it?

  176. David says:

    reply from the E/C

    Dear Mr

    Thank you for your email dated 05 June 2014.

    It may be helpful if I begin by clarifying the Commission’s regulatory role and powers in relation to the referendum. The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013 sets out rules on campaign spending, donations and loans which apply during the ‘referendum period’ (30 May to 18 September). The referendum act gives the Commission both the responsibility and powers to regulate these rules.

    However, we have no remit in relation to regulating the impartiality of broadcasters.

    Political impartiality in broadcast media is covered by the editorial guidelines relevant to that particular broadcaster and is regulated by Ofcom in the case of commercial broadcasters and by the BBC Trust for the BBC

    The BBC’s editorial guidelines on broadcasting during the Scottish independence referendum can be found at: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/guidelines/editorialguidelines/pdfs/2014ReferendumGuidelinesFinal130314.pdf

    Commercial broadcasters are subject to the Ofcom Broadcasting Code, which can be found at: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/broadcasting/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code

    Turning to your second point regarding the CBI, I wonder if you have seen our press release on this matter:-

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-referendums/confederation-of-british-industry-cbi-application-to-be-permitted-participant-at-scottish-independence-referendum-is-void,-announces-electoral-commission

    We will monitor their activities over the ‘referendum period’ as part of the monitoring work we do ahead of any election or referendum.

    Yours sincerely

    name removed

    Business Support Officer

    The Electoral Commission

    Lothian Chambers

    59-63 George IV Bridge

    Edinburgh EH1 1RN

  177. David says:

    awaiting a reply to my complaint about AD’s comments

  178. muttley79 says:

    @Capella

    I would not read too much into the Nazis saying they were socialist. It is true they called themselves it. However, no real socialism/ socialist would ever justify or support what the Nazis did to whole sections of European society.

  179. JC says:

    I am seriously considering a Yes vote ( so I am not writing this as an anti-YES person), BUT I am English (lived in Scotland for 20 years) and as such have grown up tending to feel ok about being British (i.e I don’t feel repressed/victimised and feel that my culture has been destroyed like most Scots do). So my Yes vote would be a civic one and a political one. So, maybe I am sensitive to it etc, but there is PLENTY of ‘blood and soil’ type nationalism about. It is usually not expressed openly or directly, but there are lots of opinions and comments expressed on web sites and discussion forums (this one included), that are massively anti English in an ethnic kind of way and that really do talk about motherlands and blood of ancestors etc. I don’t like it or agree with it but from a historical perspective I understand it and see where it comes from. but I do think many YES voters are in denial about this, and it is this ‘blood and soil’ edge to Scottish nationalism, that makes me hesitate when it comes to voting YES!!! Now obviously not all YES voters fall into this category (maybe they are a small minority), but it is this absolute unwillingness to even acknowledge or consider the possibility that is almost more unnerving than the opinion itself.

  180. Krackerman says:

    JC – can you link any examples of what you’re referring to?

  181. Andy-B says:

    David Cameron welcomes President Obama’s intervention, for the no side.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2014/06/05/no-side-hails-obamas-scotland-comments

  182. Andy-B says:

    North sea oil,and gas industries unfazed by independence,more firms said independence would be positive, rather than negative.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27696776

  183. setondene says:

    This all fits with the UK government’s endless celebration of war against the Germans. Just re-cast Alex Salmond as one of the racist enemies and you can watch what happens to evil Germans on BBC any and every night (and day) of the week. Boy, they must really hate us for disturbing their cosy wee World,

  184. Ziko van Dijk says:

    You wrote: ” For the Germans, Jewishness was in the blood…” Did you mean “Nazis”, or is that the same to you?

  185. David says:

    HO HUM JC while some born in Scotland Scottish Nationalists may have a blood and soil mentality, this SNP, YES and Others campaign for independence certainly does not.

    One thing it is not is anti English, Anti Westminster for sure – surely you can see the difference.

    You are voting YES for a better fairer country are you not? So why get distracted and start to have muddled thinking

  186. Ian Brotherhood says:

    First hour of Newsdrive, been and gone,
    Mention of Mumblegate? there was none.

  187. CameronB Brodie says:

    JC
    I was actually thinking along similar lines earlier today, that an appreciation of ethnic identity is a key element of ones identity, but it is also an avenue best avoided when considering the most appropriate location of one’s government.

  188. handclapping says:

    @JC
    As a fellow Englishman could it be that you do not feel threatened as the BBC, even in Scotland, pumps out the British culture you are comfortable with?

    If I were Scots I would be worrying about the lack of any promotion of Scottish culture Where is the Strictly Come Scottish Country Dancing? Fascinating to watch and interesting in the patterns they dance to but on TV, no.

    Most of the “anti-English”ness is down to sloppy thinking, confusing the good guys,us, with the bad guys, Westminster. I hope I will never be as callous and cold hearted, insensitive and incompetent as the persons who “represent” us at Westminster.

  189. Druidpld says:

    Sorry to disagree with an excellent article – but it really does matter exactly what Mr Darling said. Most of those in the Yes camp understand that BT is committed to a version of Unionist Nationalism that requires Scotland to stay in the UK regardless of the impact on the people of either Scotland or UK.

    However many of those No voters don’t understand that Unionist Nationalists would pay any price to win the referendum. That includes destroying the legitimacy of Scottish politics and deceiving the country into indefensible wars.

    Until he can no longer quibble over what is quite obviously a central plank of the BT campaign – destroy Alex Salmond and the SNP whatever the cost to the Scottish people. It won’t be clear to many No voters just who they are in bed with.

    Also I’m increasingly disinclined to ascribe Machiavellian motives to Mr Darling and the London media. He increasingly looks like someone who is genuinely out of his depth and they really just don’t see how any debate outside London can be anything other than narrow parochialism.

  190. Druidpld says:

    Just re-read Mr Darling’s comments and realised just how insidious they are for:

    “If you ask any nationalist, ‘Are there any circumstances in which you would not vote to be independent?’ they would say the answer has got to be no. It is about how people define themselves through their national identity.”

    Read:
    “If you ask any nationalist [other than British Nationalist] , ‘Are there any circumstances in which you would not vote to be independent?’ they would say the answer has got to be no. It is about how people define themselves through their national identity.”

    In other words you can only be a Nationalist if you support independence and by implication if you support indpendence you are a nationalist.

    No one who knows me would describe me as a nationalist of any stripe, I do not define myself by my national identity British or Scottish, I define myself by my taking responsibility for my deeds every day.

  191. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “You wrote: ” For the Germans, Jewishness was in the blood…” Did you mean “Nazis”, or is that the same to you?”

    Sorry, I have a habit of assuming my readers aren’t idiots and that the clear use of the past tense and the context of the sentence would have made it crystal-clear who I was referring to.

  192. Ken says:

    One type of nationalism, two, three…?
    All nationalist movements are comprised of a variety of different nationalisms – the SNP are no different – they have civics, ethnics, romantics, leftists and goodness knows what else. The proportions have varied over time, but all these ‘flavours’ are still there!

  193. Zen Broon says:

    As a half-English Scot, I find Darling’s remarks utterly vile, and a disgrace from a democratic politician. It does follow a pattern though we have seen thoughout the campaign for unionists to denegrate indepndence campaigners, and by extension the Scottish people, as being driven by crude emotion and even hatred. This is itself an astonishingy prejudiced and offensive view, harking back to the colonialist mentality that it is the duty of the ruling elite to save the natives ‘from themselves’.

  194. Ken says:

    Druidpld says:

    Sorry to disagree with an excellent article – but it really does matter exactly what Mr Darling said. Most of those in the Yes camp understand that BT is committed to a version of Unionist Nationalism that requires Scotland to stay in the UK regardless of the impact on the people of either Scotland or UK.

    Some in the anti-independence camp are committed to Scotland having to stay in the Union regardless of the impact on people – that’s true. It’s no less true that some in the Yes camp are committed to Scotland becoming independent at all costs, regardless of the impact on the people of Scotland. Same thing, really?

  195. Ken says:

    Well said, JC – it’s about time this myth about the Yes campaign being purely ‘civic’ in nature. The proportions may be lower in the past, and some of the ‘Jacobites’ are being held in check and behaving themselves, but the Bravehearts are still there. And like you, it’s one of the things that sometimes puts me off voting yes.

  196. Croompenstein says:

    @Ken – the Bravehearts are still there. And like you, it’s one of the things that sometimes puts me off voting yes

    Bravehearts is it? well this is what puts folk off voting No

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-campaigner-80-attacked-1-3077094

  197. Ken says:

    @Croompstein
    Sorry, but what point were you trying to make by putting up that link. I sense it was in some way trying to undermine my point about the ‘Bravehearts’ – but I don’t really see how it addresses the point I made.

  198. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ken –

    Who are these ‘Bravehearts’ you refer to, and how have they affected your life?

    If you are seriously prepared to cast your vote (even partially) on the basis of their behaviour then I presume you must have had some unpleasant encounters with them.

    Could you please reinforce your statement with some detail?

  199. donald anderson says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    5 June, 2014 at 9:45 am

    Every BTUKOKER should now be asked whether or not they agree with Darling. John Reid, in Stirling this coming weekend would be a start.

    Annual Bannockburn Rally
    Saturday June 21
    1.15pm Mayfield Centre (row of wee shops) Bannockburn village, facing Borestone Bar,
    where Bruce is reputed to have camped. March from roundabout to Glasgow Road to the Rotunda, Bannockburn Heritage Centre for speakers.
    Scoriach. 1314 Inn. Fiery Jack and others. Tickets £5, Children Free.
    Bus 10.45 am from North Frederick St, George Square, Glasgow. £10 Children Free.
    Separate bus pick up at Alexandria Station Car Park. 11.20 am
    Glasgow Bus Leave 1314 Inn at 7-ish.

  200. Ken says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    6 June, 2014 at 12:01 am
    @Ken –
    Who are these ‘Bravehearts’ you refer to, and how have they affected your life?
    If you are seriously prepared to cast your vote (even partially) on the basis of their behaviour then I presume you must have had some unpleasant encounters with them.
    Could you please reinforce your statement with some detail?

    @Ian Brotherhood
    These ‘Bravehearts’ are the people in the pro-independence campaign who want Scotland to be independent at all costs and base this wish on elements such as: romantic views of Scottish history, anti-Englishness, the notion that the Scots are intrinsically different and superior to other races/nations (simply by dint of being Scottish, – I thought I’d expressed that clearly. If you mean ‘who are they?’, in the sense of naming them, then I suggest you simply go on some of the pro-independence sites. If and how they have affected me is irrelevant. I’m making an observational point, which also has a basis in socio-political analysis of any nationalist movement. Address the point and try not to personalize things, if you don’t mind 🙂

  201. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ken –

    There’s nothing ‘personal’ about it. I’m asking for specific examples of the racism you allege. If you spent 20 years living in Scotland I assume you can recall at least one incident to back up your observation.

    And let’s clarify something important – is it your opinion that Alistair Darling’s ‘blood and soil’ comments are acceptable in this debate?

  202. Druidpld says:

    @Ken

    “It’s no less true that some in the Yes camp are committed to Scotland becoming independent at all costs, regardless of the impact on the people of Scotland. Same thing, really?” – Totally agree and those on both sides have a moral obligation to ensure that we keep in mind that this is about what’s best for this society.

    The concern is that it has become received wisdom on the Unionist Nationalist side they must “crush” the SNP and win the referendum regardless of the cost to our democracy and vulnerable. This is becoming “by any means necessary” by the Unionists (and sections of the media) and it is frankly scary to see how far they are prepared to go to crush a democratically called referendum.

    So to say “Same thing, really?” as if it doesn’t matter or can’t be helped (regardless of which side the attitude comes from) is the politics of callous despair.

  203. Ken says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood.
    What ‘allegations of racism’ did I make? Please don’t imply I said things that I didn’t, in fact, say.

    I stand by my statement that all nationalisms/nationalist movements are comprised of a combination of elements – ethnic,romantic,racist,blood and soil, civic, bourgeois, left-wing, cultural – whatever you like. The SNP and the pro-independence movement are no different. Some on the pro-independence side give the impression they believe that there is something intrinsically ‘special’ or ‘different’ about Scottish nationalism – that it is ‘untainted’ with the more ‘ethnic-style’ attributes of other nationalisms. Not only is this ridiculous and flying in the face of history, but by attributing some ‘exceptional’ characteristics to Scots and Scottish nationalism, it actually becomes the very thing it tries so hard to avoid!!
    And it is personal to ask me to ‘back up’ analysis with examples from my own life – and it’s irrelevant.

    Regarding Darling’s remark – well, it’s not clear what he said exactly, so I couldn’t give a definitive answer. If he meant all Scots nationalists were of the ‘blood and soil’ type, then I’d disagree. If he meant that there was an element of this within Scottish nationalism, then I’d agree. Is that clear enough?

  204. Capella says:

    @ muttley 79
    As a life long socialist myself, I quite agree that for the Nazi party to call itself socialist was a grim irony. That was my point re taking a party name to mean something it doesn’t. However, Labour MPs such as Darling seem to be unaware of that irony as they try to paint the SNP and, by extension, YES supporters as Nazis presumably because the SNP has the word “national” in its name.

  205. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ken –

    What Darling said is clear enough.

    He was referring to the SNP.

    Are you agreeing with him – that the SNP is a ‘blood and soil’ movement? If not, please tell me what the ‘element…within Scottish nationalism’ is.

  206. Peter C says:

    I have worked in the media 25 years and i promise you that nowhere I have worked would alloow an interviewee “to read and approve the article before it went to print as standard practice.”

    This is nonsense “AJ”.

  207. Ken says:

    @Ian Brotherhood
    I don’t know what else I can say to you.
    You give the impression that you’re trying to catch me out with some kind of tough questioning that will force me to come clean.
    I’ll repeat again. Nationalism is by its very nature made up of disparate elements/factions – there is no unifying ‘class-based’ ideology underpinning nationalism (though this can sometimes be an important/majority part). As I’m not clear about exactly what Darling said/meant, I can’t answer your question (as I stated earlier). If Darling said that the SNP was mainly a blood and soil/ethnic nationalism movement, then I don’t agree. If Darling meant to say that there was an element of ‘blood and soil’ nationalism within the SNP, then I do agree with him. Is that clear enough. A reading of social and political history supports what I am saying. As does a perusal of pro-nationalist websites and forums; indeed, look no further than this one.

  208. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ken –

    I’m not trying to catch you out.

    I want you to tell me where this ‘element’ resides. If we give AD the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was referring to non-SNP people, who was he talking about?

    The people who threatened Susan Calman, Kezia Dugdale and Cara Hilton? The people (i.e. us, right here) who precipitated the closure of Vote No Borders by asking them questions and posting dodgy 80’s music videos on their grand opening night?

    Who are these people who provide such rich fodder for cartoonists like Steve Bell, and ‘journalists’ like Alan Cochrane and Euan McColm?

    Are they so subversive, so hidden, that they haven’t even made an appearance here? If they are here, please point them out.

    Ken, I’m not having a go at you here. It’s not ‘personal’ at all, but you appear to be lumping me and a lot of people into a MSM-generated chimera which is frightening the life out of a lot of folk who are entitled to hear reasoned arguments.

    If you spent 20 years here then it must’ve had something going for it. I hope you’ll return, and not be too upset to find that the furniture has been rearranged. This is OUR choice, and no-one has the right to interfere in this process – not the President of the United States, and certainly not a proven liar like Alistair Darling.

    Please withdraw your support for his comments – he doesn’t deserve it, from you or anyone else.

  209. Justin Kenrick says:

    @scottish_skier (5 June, 2014 at 3:10 pm) points out that

    Labour have previously called for Scotland’s referendum to be ethnic in nature by arguing that being ‘blood & soil’ Scottish should qualify you for a vote rather than residency, and he points out that those arguing for an in/out EU referendum also propose not allowing EU and Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK to vote (whereas they are allowed to vote in the Scottish Independence referendum).

    @Ken (6th June 10.14pm) and @ JC (5th June 4.38pm):

    Of course there are bampots everywhere (people who think ‘my country right or wrong’, who think they are somehow superior to others – think American exceptionalism which my American relatives hate, think Britain ruling the waves, or Deutccheland uber alles) but the issue Ian is asking you to address is this institutional blood and soil nationalism happening on the ‘British’ side of the equation that is just not being addressed, while on the Scottish Independence side of the equation all the institutions – SNP, Yes, Scottish Greens, Labour for Independence, etc – are ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that this is abut civic nationalism. If you live here (as I do, an English Scot) you have the right to vote, if you don’t (as Stuart doesn’t) then you don’t.

    @ JC (5th June 4.38pm):

    I find the way the British nationalists accuse the independence side of somehow hiding ‘blood and soil’ nationalism (while not acknowledging that they are pushing exactly that) far more scary than some on the independence side sometimes finding it hard to admit that there are bampots everywhere because they fear the admission will be used against. Don’t you think their fear is understandable given that the institutions on the No side – Labour, Tory, BBC, CBI, almost all newspapers – will not respond in a reasoned way but seek to use this to further marginalise the real debate?



Comment - new users please read this page first for commenting rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use the live preview box. Include paragraph breaks or I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




↑ Top