We may have just changed our mind
…on whether 16/17-year-olds are smart enough to vote. Here’s one of Scotland’s bright young things on last night’s Question Time, talking about independence:
“Do you [Angus Robertson] not think the SNP are mucking us about right now? Because we’re not even getting answers on will we have free tuition… how are we going to know that our education’s going to be as good as it is right now?”
Yikes.
Maybe we’re being harsh. Maybe this isn’t a stupidity issue, but a poverty issue. Maybe the unfortunate young woman lives in a household unable to afford a television or newspapers, and that’s the reason she’s somehow managed to miss all of the approximately 8,600 times Alex Salmond has been quoted giving the most unequivocal commitment possible to continuing free university tuition in Scotland.
Whether you agree with the policy or not, even whether you believe the pledge or not, it’s a truly remarkable feat in this super-connected information age to insist that the answer hasn’t been given. But perhaps more to the point, the reason independence is unlikely to make Scottish education get worse is that SCOTTISH EDUCATION IS ALREADY COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT, and has been for hundreds of years.
(That, of course, being the reason it’s possible for tuition to be free now.)
It’s not nice, and rarely very productive, to observe that people are just a bit dim. But sometimes, when someone presents you with what’s unmistakeably a spade, it’s awfully hard – and also dishonest – to make a case that it’s really a bucket.
Mysoginist.
The widespread inability of people to spell “misogynist” is clear evidence of ANOTHER SNP FAILURE.
Could have been a planted question to allow the SNP’s position to be stated again?
I really wish Angus would have had the opportunity to point out to this VERY misguided young lady that its ONLY the 3 pro-union parties who want to introduce uni tuition fees.
The widespread inability of people to spell “misogynist” is clear evidence of ANOTHER SNP FAILURE.
Different words. A misogynist is a man who hates women. A mysoginist is a man with a different political viewpoint who happens to justifiably criticise a woman.
How did Angus answer?
Her teacher must be so proud 🙂
so sad people are so ignorant of the powers the Scottish government currently have. I have heard similar from older folk. We’re not blowing our own trumpet loudly enough. Cutting through the fog of media obfuscation is not easy of course.
It’s always nice to have an excuse to use the guid, auld Scots word glaikit though, isn’t it!
Have to say, I thought that Angus and Lesley should have withdrawn at the last minute, I was however moderately please with the outcome. I was very happy at Angus lambasting the BBC from the outset, it took all by surprise, and took them a minute or two for the chair to marshal his thoughts. So well done Angus!
Lesley Riddoch was a revelation and made her remarks very well, topped by her decision to vote YES, the female vote will surely take notice. Well done Lesley!
Galloway and Farange were as expected and poor boy Sanwar proved irrelevant, both just the usual anti SNP rants.
It was a disgrace that Harvie was not there in place of course was extremly bad and short sighted by the ever more manipulative BBC, who may well now regret their decision if Twitter is anything to go by.
So all in all the pantomime hoped for by the BBC was not as successful as they had hoped. It may force a rethink of their policies, but I will not hold my breath.
It seems there is a distinct possibility the tide is turning in favour of YES, not withstanding the problem with the youth of the country who actually do not seem to grasp all the information that is out there already. Only those who seek it out will be enlightened, and those who can’t be bothered remain a problem.
If I could vote, I would be voting in favour of independence as I want to be one step closer to finding aliens.
I thought the person who appeared to have a problem with studying Scottish history and literature was a bit odd (a conspiracy theorist on the Union side).
The young guy who seemed to think Scots were attacked in England was a low. We all make mistakes when we are young.
The “step closer” to discovering alien life in 2014 guy achieved his 15 seconds of fame and will now spend 55 years working out his next ambition.
@ Jiggsbro says:
Mysoginist.
Not so. He’s attacking ignorance not gender.
Perhaps the young lady is under the impression that the rocks are in imminent danger of melting in the sun.
I didn’t watch it but now I’m feeling a bit left out…
Still complained mind…
In terms of young folk, its all about education, as in, telling them how things work currently and how things can be improved with independence – I do it a fair bit and it works.
They just need the information, after that, the yes vote tends to be in the bag (although football allegiance does add a bit of a wrinkle.)
The programme is now being shown 10am-11am on BBC2 Never noticed that before
Not so. He’s attacking ignorance not gender.
Precisely. “A misogynist is a man who hates women. A mysoginist is a man with a different political viewpoint who happens to justifiably criticise a woman.”
What about the young man who embarked on the rant about the many thousands of jobs that would be lost because of independence and what were the SNP going to say to all these people who would be thrown out of work, was it worth sacrificing them?
He should have been nailed, and I’m not sure he was.
In general, I thought the audience were a credit to Scotland. There were of course the obvious plants, including a totally stereotypical Tory Boy, but that’s to be expected. I’m assuming that the girl who claimed that the teaching of Scottish Literature was Nationalist indoctrination was a Labour plant. The fact that one or two of the audience were ill-informed or dim also is hardly a surprise, surely? Most made good points, one or two were excellent.
It would be good to know if the young woman came up with the question herself. If so, I think the criticism is entirely justified. If not, who provided it and was she perhaps duped in to the role of unwitting cannon fodder? Was she ‘groomed’?
The fact that one or two of the audience were ill-informed or dim also is hardly a surprise, surely?
It compares very favourably with an adult audience.
After one of Angus or Lesley’s answers, the camera panned across the audience, with most clapping, but I spied Mustard Dress here mugging like the person beside her had just farted in her face. “Blatant unionist”, I thought. I was quite pleased with myself when she asked this question a couple of minutes later.
Of course, we had the usual “I wasn’t informed enough when I was 16 to vote, so I don’t think 16 year olds should vote” point from a unionist. Having been more capable of voting when I was 16 than most people are when they’re 60, I would suggest anyone who feels they aren’t knowledgeable enough to vote at 16 should, err, just not vote. Why should the more advanced 16 year olds be prevented from voting just because one or two are a bit thick?
In fact, I’d go a step further and suggest anyone who thinks they weren’t knowledgeable enough to vote at 16 probably isn’t knowledgeable enough now either, and should just not vote. Having always been a bit cocky about my intelligence, I simply don’t understand people who identify themselves as being “a bit too thick” to place a cross in a box. I find it even more difficult to understand why they think they magically become intelligent at 18, simply because the law says they’re old enough to vote now.
The alien comment kid spent the whole of QT applauding unionist points then sticks up his hand during the pro referendum comments part. He then got his chance to waste a slot for reserved for a genuine pro comment and tried to make the pros look debits. Obvious plant.
The glorious England comment eased a chance to pull up Farage on the Sottish racism question and presented his point pathetically. Maybe a plant, maybe just confused.
Sarwar was hopeless, Ruthie predictable and Galloway a tube. Farage was Farage. Good on Robertson and Riddoch.
Did anyone tune into Radio 5 live post show? I caught the end of it (10 mins). Many ill informed discussions, aided by the presenters, and still talking about issues long since dead, e.g. why don’t rUK get a vote!
Maybe it’s just me but I find John Pienaar lacking a grasp of the detail on most topics?
Here’s the bbc iplayer link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b02xch54/Question_Time_13_06_2013/
Thought Angus and Lesley performed admirably.
If you watch it again you can see her arse is making buttons to get that question in . Plant
The girl at the end talking very Lamont-Speech-Reader-like about SNP subliminal tactics by getting kids in Scottish schools to be taught Scottish History was handled expertly by Angus to be fair.
As a retired teacher of young people (not sure how informed that makes this contribution, but I’ll throw it in anyway) from last night’s age group, I would make two observations:
1. The young lady in the picture was obviously badly misinformed on the issue of tuition fees etc., mostly I suspect because she has been brought up in a Labour supporting family. Her hatred of Alex Salmond and the SNP was very evident.
2. I would argue that most of the young people in the audience are heavily influenced by what they hear at home and do not feel confident enough to form their own opinions. In my experience young people in this age group view politics as an adult ‘thing’, something for mum and dad, something for later life.
In conclusion I would argue that most of the audience would probably form their political opinions on what they hear at home and that most would be brought up in a unionist thinking household. To counter this, I think the YES campaign must be more target specific and make much more use of social media and pop culture. For example I think I read somewhere that the YES campaign were planning a stall at T in the Park. If so, brilliant, if not, see to it! There is time to win many young folk over to the YES cause, but the YES Team and the SNP must get more information out to this age group ASAP.
“Different words. A misogynist is a man who hates women. A mysoginist is a man with a different political viewpoint who happens to justifiably criticise a woman.”
🙂
@tattie-boggle.
What an excellent turn of phrase.
That is all.
Well, there was this ignorant lass, a spotty-faced young tory git who ranted rubbish for about five minutes and the alien time-waster (all with unionist mummies and daddies, no doubt). And then GG went off on a tangent a couple of times, with a number of false accusations. AR was solid, getting a well-timed punch at the BBC, and LR was absolutely fantastic. RD and AS managed to keep up (just) with their rehearsed lines. RD pulled it off better, at l;east appearing semi-natural. AS, however was his usual robotic self. NF was, well NF.
Overall, I was pleasantly surprised by the level of discussion at QT last night. Some of the young folk there appeared to be more thoughtful and mature than those sitting behind the panel.
O/T if you missed Rory Bremner’s take on Holyrood last night, try to watch it. Another pleasant surprise!
I’m not sure why folk think “person asking a pro-union question” = plant. Folk are quite capable of forming badly misinformed opinions by themselves, in fact I would suggest a genuine plant wouldn’t have made such an arse of the question!
I think many of the folk who make up QT audiences tend to be local party members or councillors anyway. From some of the Tory Boy types that asked questions last night, I think it’s fair to say there were more than a handful of wannabe politicians in the crowd – but I would suggest that would also apply to several of the pro-independence audience members as well.
Either way, does being a member of a party automatically mean you’re a “plant”? That would mean I’d be an SNP plant if I ever appeared on Question Time, even if I’d not been briefed by the party beforehand with a question to ask.
Luigi says:
NF was, well NF.
AH! Now i get it. Nigel Farage = NF = National Front.
Busted, UKIP! 😀
May I suggest that the young lady in question has indeed access to a TV it is just that it only receives the BBC.
Not sure where Brian Taylor’s All-Star Roadshow is today, but let’s see if any audience members get in a dig about last night’s line-up.
It’s not only 16 and 17 year olds who are bereft of facts. The MSM have seen to that. The BBC in particular make it all so unpleasant and so biased that I can understand why many people are switching off.
Highlight of the show for me was Anas Sarwars face when Leslie was raging on about Inequality and those dollar Millionaires down in London. For a man banging on about Social Justice, the Mayfair dwelling Millionaire fitted right in to that demographic!
She has all the makings of a Holyrood labour front bencher ( and however youthfully ill informed she had more presence and gravitas about her last night than Sarwar !)
As for the “aliens” laddie…..his style reminded me of that Tory Party conference at which a smug and very young William Hague made his cutesy first appearance
Scotland has always had an;
1. Independent church
2. Independent legal system
3. Independent health system
4. Independent education system
Surely our schools would be informing school children on those basic facts.
As a good friend and retired teacher said to me once- “never underestimate just how thick some people can be”
@ Morag..
Yes the young obviously unionist leaning misinformed comment about defence jobs being lost was in caught frame clapping enthusiatically within 2 minutes when Angus Robertson declared that voting Yes would get rid of Trident and nuclear weapons.
Such is the fickleness of youth. Heh
Re the aliens, I’m sure it would of been a good contender for #acceptableprotest.
@Luigi
I to was pleasantly surprised by Rory Bremner. He did a documentary a couple of years ago something like “The Scottish Soldier at War” His great grandfather fought at Balaclava. It was a Union Flag waving exercise and quite pro-union. I think the program informed a lot of people most of all Bremner. And wasn’t Margo brilliant!
interesting that Ruthie and Sarwar both resorted to quoting statistics that would likely pass harmlessly over the heads of the audience.
Dimbleby is well past his sell by date.
i have to watch selected BBC programmes on a friend’s TV now as I’ve decided i don’t want the BBC’s service anymore.i’m none the worse for it.
I never watched Match of the Day, nor Top Gear, silly costume dramas, English royalty programmes, the Jubilee, the Olympics, sitcoms, and I found the News reporting distorted. So what was the point of continuing with the BBC?
Rev
The young hardly watch TV or read papers, their world is the internet, iapps and the like. You also have to factor in the constant confusion and lies spread by No Scotland. The only thing we can do is each time a question is asked is to answer it. As a 16/17 year old she is rightly focussed on the next four or five years. The independence move will come just as she is going to university. The Yes Scotland campaign needs to spell out what we will do for her and the dangers of creeping death if it is a No vote and “something for nothing” Milliband gets in.
It might be tedious but we cannot assume that everyone already knows what is on the table. With grace and goodwill we need to set out the positive case every single time (well maybe not to Lord Foulkes because he a carnaptious troll)
I was too late to edit my last comment re Bremner. The spoiler was that he had chief slimeball (last helicopter out) Cochran on spouting on about Alex Salmond being just like Stalin.
Sapheneia says: 14 June, 2013 at 10:24 am
The young guy who seemed to think Scots were attacked in England was a low. We all make mistakes when we are young.
He didn’t make any mistakes. So where have you been these last few weeks while two English killers were tried and sentenced for murdering a young Scots bagpiper and nearly killing his friend in Yorkshire, and when HIGNFY attacked Scots in a recent programme?
Hand and Shrimp
Spot on
Let us not denigrate the young for being young and asking questions we know the answers to.
She now knows, I hope and so do many others of her generation
Maybe she wants to read this article and see how English students might fare against the Westminster machine’s latest proposals regarding Student Loan interest rates.
Guys, lots of young folks have a wide range of views. Same as adults. In the interests of fair play, I don’t think pictures of individual youngsters should be posted around for the purpose of vilifying them for perfectly legitimate views/questions. I’m going to vote Yes, but I want to see fair and respectable play all round.
The young woman who asked, “Do you [Angus Robertson] not think the SNP are mucking us about right now? Because we’re not even getting answers on will we have free tuition… how are we going to know that our education’s going to be as good as it is right now?”
In many ways, she has a perfectly valid point – what could happen if Labour in their current state got into power? Scary prospect indeed. It wouldn’t just be free education that would disappear, many other things are under threat also – prescriptions, welfare benefits and basic state pensions could all vanish into the abyss.
That was why Angus Robertson replied they were safe under an SNP government.
This is precisely why the Yes campaign need foot soldiers on the ground to get the message through to those waking up to Independence not only being possible, but also viable. For to long the attitude from Westminster has been Scots don’t want Independence. The clear fact is, even when we voted for devolution in 1979 we were told the same old lies, by the same old politicians.
The general public need to feel Independence is possible/viable and positive. The no campaign cannot afford this to happen so the scares and misinformation will continue.
It is our job to create and encourage the environment in which people can make up their own minds based on the information available. Only one side is making that happen and it takes time to cultivate.
Be under no illusion, this will happen, but that means the Yes campaign needs to continue down the path it is on.
The “one step closer to finding aliens” was presumably an attempt “to be clever” and make Magrat’s point about foreigners. Farage’s presence made the point rather moot as he is the one that wants to multiply the number of aliens. Still he had his clever question and he was damned if Farage’s late inclusion was going to stop him.
I know that young people ask questions which we night already know the answers to, but come on. I am not trying to be nasty, but surly you do a bit of research before asking a question on the BBC. Unless… Sounds like ‘alien boy’ worked on his for quite a while.
I am being purely speculative here, given I don’t have TV.
Cameron B
Just cut her some slack.
It has taken me all of 2+ generations to get to where I am. She is just starting on that road and we shouldn’t abuse her for being open and honest.
When I was her age politics didn’t come onto my radar screen. There were more important things like page 3 and getting a drink in the pub.
As to Scots being attacked in England, apparently a former Manchester cop has just published a book in which he happily reminisces about beating up and framing Scots in the sixties. Although that is quite a long time ago, he apparently feels able to brag about his exploits, presumably feeling that many of his readers will approve of what he and his colleagues did.
dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/corrupt-manchester-police-conducted-hate-1942908
BTP
I agree. The question she asked is a straight lead into what SNP have done, what the Coalition have done and what Milliband is likely to do. This is good ground for the Yes side and appalling ground for the Liberals and Labour. If this was asked by an SNP MSP at FMQs the opposition would be moaning about planted questions.
@ BtP & Handandshrimp,
Its not a bad thing that she feels its now OK to start asking such questions. It surely shows although still nervous that she is starting to think and ask questions which is exactly what we should be encouraging. I hope that others seeing this will be encouraged to ask questions – it shows a willingness to take part.
We are going to hear the same questions over and over and over again as people start wondering -Could it be possible, could we do it?
That is the start of something much bigger and momentum can only move in one direction.
Doug Daniel: I’m not sure why folk think “person asking a pro-union question” = plant.
Paranoid speculation about everyone who disagrees with them being part of a conspiracy is sadly common amongst the more partisan end of the Cybernat spectrum, isnt it?
In fact you could say it’s a perennial problem – perennial – plant – geddit?
Bill C, made a very good point regarding the young being influenced By their parents, that
thought crossed my mind while watching last night, how do you get them to “stand back”
and think for themselves.
the ones who say that they are too young to vote, are the type who, in adulthood most
likely will not cast their vote anyway.
to Nbd
Groan
And I was just reading about James Crichton.
IMO, last night didn`t turn out to be that bad after all. The younger audience mostly reflecting similarities to a typical Question Time audience from Scotland. George Galloway was a slavering, boorish dick, and very much a black knight compared to Lesley Riddoch`s white queen calm but assured presence.
I loved Riddoch`s put down of Ruth Davidson`s “There`s still time to become a Tory”
“No there isn`t!”
Class.
a supporter says:
He didn’t make any mistakes. So where have you been these last few weeks while two English killers were tried and sentenced for murdering a young Scots bagpiper and nearly killing his friend in Yorkshire, and when HIGNFY attacked Scots in a recent programme?
If you truly believe Scots are routinely attacked and murdered in England then maybe you have never lived in England (a fantastic country IMO). Murdering scum bags exist in all countries. You think the Poles consider Scots murderers because of what happened in Glasgow a few years ago? Grow up.
As a Welsh nationalist following developments in Scotland closely, it was interesting to see that Dimbleby’s question to the audience about independence last night indicated a 50/50 split. Bearing in mind that most polls show YES at around 35% at present, is this an encouraging omen I wonder?
Looking in from the outside, I think the case for Independence took a further step last night which was quite a feat considering the BBC’s in-built British bias and their blatant attempt to concoct an anti-independence panel.
I’m not really familiar with the Better Together politicians, but the Labour guy sounded completely vacuous and the Conservative representative had no positive vision for Scotland at all. George Galloway was good on the initial issue on privacy but then he veered completely off tangent, and it just became a personal rant which made him sound a bit unhinged to be honest. Farage was just playing up to an English-based audience, and he came over as a complete bit-player in the Scottish context.
Angus Robertson and Mary Riddoch were therefore able to come through the middle presenting reasonable and coherent arguments for independence. I think Mary Riddoch’s argument that she has eventually come to the conclusion that real change can only come about through independence will be the one that can swing the referendum next year.
George Galloway was a slavering, boorish dick
Nice :¬)
@ Bugger (the Panda)
We are having a btl debate on the future of Scotland and the British state, not discussing the best approach towards character affirmation for young adults. Anyway, I did not criticise here, I simply considered whether it might have been prudent for her to do the most basic of preparation before appearing on such a public forum.
Cut he some slack. Away and get yer baffies.
“As a Welsh nationalist following developments in Scotland closely, it was interesting to see that Dimbleby’s question to the audience about independence last night indicated a 50/50 split. Bearing in mind that most polls show YES at around 35% at present, is this an encouraging omen I wonder?”
I’d have thought he simply meant that the audience had been selected to be evenly balanced, not that it represented a proportionate reflection of wider youth opinion. QT vets its audience.
“but the Labour guy sounded completely vacuous”
Aye, Sarwar was definitely well out of his depth. The others, much as I disagree with them, all at least responded to the questions and statements made in the studio on the night. Sarwar just used every opportunity to trigger one of his well-worn “blah blah SNP bad” preset scripts. As was seen on Newsnight Scotland a few weeks ago, he has no ability to respond to real-time events at all, only to quack out prepared propaganda.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/crash-point-zero/
FREE THE THISTLE !!!!!
@Scaraben says:
14 June, 2013 at 12:11 pm
As to Scots being attacked in England, apparently a former Manchester cop has just published a book in which he happily reminisces about beating up and framing Scots in the sixties. Although that is quite a long time ago, he apparently feels able to brag about his exploits, presumably feeling that many of his readers will approve of what he and his colleagues did.
I played rugby at a reasonable level with a Scottish Met police officer. The most violent racist I have ever met. He loved talking about his exploits openly in public in the bar. We all have our share of ignorant thugs. This is irrelevant to winning Scottish independence.
“Mary Riddoch”
Lesley 🙂
Re. Anas; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anas_superciliosa.jpg (lots of new readers :))
“If you truly believe Scots are routinely attacked and murdered in England then maybe you have never lived in England (a fantastic country IMO).”
He didn’t say they were “routinely” murdered, he quoted one instance. Murder isn’t “routine” in Britain generally. But “attacked”? You might want to have a read of this:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/corrupt-manchester-police-conducted-hate-1942908#.UbsE6sF6u-c.twitter
I live in England. I agree it’s a great country. But the notion that there’s no anti-Scottish sentiment here is absurd.
“In fact you could say it’s a perennial problem – perennial – plant – geddit?”
KINDLY LEAVE THE STAGE.
I didn’t see the programme but would tend to go with the argument of not being too harsh on the young folk, and the best thing any Yes campaigner could do with this girl is sit her down and talk to her for an hour and calmly point out the salient details, rather than mocking her.
Yes there may be children of unionist parents who are like this, but what we should be doing is supplying them with the facts & the history (such as tuition fees more likely from Unionist parties, in this case), getting them to form their own opinions and reassure them that it’s OK if it differs from their parents.
I hope any kid viewing this site isn’t put off by the air of ridicule from pro-Indys.
The young person and the question regarding tutition fees. A 16/17 yr old has plenty information available at school, from parents,from colleges, and UCAS regarding fees and loans. I find it unbelievable any student didn’t know to a penny what they were entitled to (I did) and what the SG policy is. Perhaps she’s had been better asking Ruth and Anus what their proposals were for fees in the event they got in power. Tho’ to be fair Angus got to state the SG’s policy and answered the question so job done
@ CameronB
They are actually quite functional trainers!
They give me a head start with women in zimmers.
🙂
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
14 June, 2013 at 1:03 pm
“But the notion that there’s no anti-Scottish sentiment here [England] is absurd.”
Luckily I did not say that then. I said murdering scum bags exist in all countries.
As soon as AR started talking the camera was on this young woman and her face tld you EXACTLY what she was all about.
I did think however that the girl who called Angus Robertson, Brian robertson and then went on to decree that people her age werent fit to vote in the referendum was quite ironic
lol
“When I was her age politics didn’t come onto my radar screen.”
Yeah, but then you probably didn’t go on Question Time.
“I don’t think pictures of individual youngsters should be posted around for the purpose of vilifying them for perfectly legitimate views/questions”
She’s hardly been “vilified”, for heaven’s sake. It’s not a “perfectly legitimate view/question”, though. That’s the point. You’d need to be deaf and blind not to know what the SNP’s policy on tuition fees is, especially if you’re sufficiently interested in the subject to go on bloody Question Time and talk about it. Young people know how Google works.
And, y’know, posting her picture is a bit of a moot point the day after she’s just been broadcast on national television to an audience rather bigger than this website’s.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
14 June, 2013 at 1:21 pm
“When I was her age politics didn’t come onto my radar screen.”
Yeah, but then you probably didn’t go on Question Time.
I wonder how much of her desire to on QT was due to parental or peer pressure, over or subliminal?
We didn’t have QT in my day and even if we did I would have been too tongue tied to appear on anything greater than the One O’Clock Gang.
Live was much more easy when it was in Black & White, don’t you think?
“I wonder how much of her desire to on QT was due to parental or peer pressure”
It’s a bit of a reach to start inventing reasons why she might have been on there against her will.
Sapheneia says: 14 June, 2013 at 12:43 pm
If you truly believe Scots are routinely attacked and murdered in England then maybe you have never lived in England (a fantastic country IMO). Murdering scum bags exist in all countries. You think the Poles consider Scots murderers because of what happened in Glasgow a few years ago? Grow up.
I didn’t say Scots are routinely attacked and murdered in England. I quoted one case which was hardly reported on in either the ‘Scottish’ or English media. Now, if it had been an Englishman killed in Scotland it would have had at least ten days headline coverage in ALL the UK media decrying anti-English racism. And you need to do the growing up if you are stupid enough to believe there is no anti-Scottish racism in England.
And fee fi fo fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman. Norse Warrior in drag? Is that true?
I wonder how much of her desire to on QT was due to parental or peer pressure, over or subliminal?
That was what I was getting at earlier, when I asked if she had been ‘groomed’. I wonder if her parents are politically active?
I didn’t say she was there against her will, I think.
I said that possibly she was there to conform to some peer, parental or even school pressure.
I remember I actually played cricket once or twice because a Teacher suggested I should.
CameronB
If she had been groomed by politically active Parents she would or should have asked a better question unless, it was a lead into asking how Scotland could afford free tuition and didn’t get the follow up?
Anyway are you a Fifer, with yer talk o baffies slabbert in glaur
“I said that possibly she was there to conform to some peer, parental or even school pressure.”
If she’s there for any other reason than “she wants to be”, that’s “against her will” in my book. But even if she was just cajoled into going along because all her friends were or something, she didn’t have to stick her hand up and say something witless.
Wait for tomorrow, when the blanket headlines appear about how this poor innocent child has been viciously vilified by teh eevil cybernats. She’s probably been told there’s a blog somewhere that said something nasty about her, and although she hasn’t read it she’s having a nervous breakdown anyway. And it’s all Alex Salmond’s fault.
Then you’ll be sorry.
@ Bugger (the Panda)
I didn’t actually see her, so I really am only speculating. Your guess is as good as mine.
Whit? Fife? Naw, Dundee. Had a great view of Fife though when I was growing up, if you ignored the Briggs bitumen plant :). Yer self?
she didn’t have to stick her hand up and say something witless.
It can be a compulsion. Indeed a couple of sparring foes on the Groaniard might say “physician heal thyself” 🙂
It might be they all had to have a question to hand and Dimbleby passed over much better ones. Not sure how they played this. It might be she genuinely is worried about fees and has not clocked what the respective political positions are. She might be a member of the young Conservatives. Who knows. You can only deal with the questions as they land on your lap. If Angus had brushed her off it would have been he who looked boorish. As questions go it was hardly a difficult one for Angus. SNP = free access to education Three Unionists = pay fees.
BTW, a misoginist is somebody who spikes their Japanese soup with Bombay Sapphire.
@ Rev Stu: “I live in England. I agree it’s a great country. But the notion that there’s no anti-Scottish sentiment here is absurd.”
It would’ve been much better if the guy had made the point that anti-Scottish sentiment is quite routinely expressed in the English media (Kelvin McKenzie, Paxman, etc.), and ocassionallly – and most worryingly – in the Houses of Parliament. It is expressed openly in a way that would cause a scandal if the boot was on the other foot.
That would’ve been much better than suggesting it’s not safe for Scottish people to walk English streets. ‘Cos it is safe. As safe as anywhere else anyway.
Who knows, the guy could’ve been a plant to make us look hateful, and allow Galloway the intro to his comments about the SNP creating division – or he could even have some personal connection to the recent attack in Yorkshire that’s soured his own views.
Galloway made a good point that there are no English tanks stationed in Scotland – they’re mostly in storage over in Germany, lol. The UK does have nukes stationed here though, against the will of the Scottish people, as shown in poll after poll. He didn’t mention those…
even though he used to chain himself to the railings at Faslane for years in protest against them…
Originally Glasgow and for some few years Freuchie, where I heard the famous phrase
Ma Baffies a fair slabber wae glaur
Quiet a culture shock for someone from Inner Bearsden.
No 1 daughter was at school in Dundee and No 2 studied at the Uni there.
I always that Dundee was like Argyle Street in Glasgow, the east end of Argyle Street that is.
Most of my Dundee jokes come from my two girls, now married women. Dundee shower and all that.
Thanks for the belly-laugh Stu. I hadn’t heard the rocks melting line before.
IMO the best part of last night was the poor lad who said something along the lines of “labour needing to come in and sort things out” got a laugh out the audience,very positive sign considering the age of the audience,yes they are young yes they can be misinformed when it comes to politics (so was i till i got interested in independence and im more than ten years older than them) but they are definately NOT stupid.
Once I learnt about last night’s QT line up I decided to follow my normal practice of NOT watching it. However, as I read all the comments appearing on Twitter I began to realise that I may have been wide of the mark so decided to turn over and watch first hand. To say I was gob smacked would be an understatement. I turned over in time to see miss “what about FREE education in Scotland” make her monumental blunder of accusing the SNP of STOPPING free education. Thankfully I was NOT drinking my usual cup of tea at the time otherwise my laptop keyboard would now be useless having been covered in a mugful of tea. 😆
I thought she could NOT possibly have been serious in her question but unfortunately I think she was. As others have said she was either a plant or misinformed or both! I was not too impressed with the young “Scottish jobs for Scottish workers will be lost in an Independent Scotland” either. Here too was an obvious plant or severely misinformed youngster, again I suspect both.
@ Bugger (the Panda)
I spent the first half my life in Dundee and most of the rest in Edinburgh. I’ve only visited Glasgow, but always felt it had more in common with Dundee. Industrial heritage and all that. Anyhoo, back to the wanton abuse of yet another poor victim of hideous cybernatery.
Next time, change out o yer baffies afore you start trachling about outside.
naebd says: BTW, a misoginist is somebody who spikes their Japanese soup with Bombay Sapphire.
Excellent. Cocktail hour never comes a moment too soon.
Bugger (the Panda)
I remember I actually played cricket once or twice because a Teacher suggested I should.
There was a report on the 6:30pm Reporting Scotland yesterday, “just how popular is cricket in Scotland”.
BBC Scotland does seem to be pushing the whole Britishness thing.
Young people fall into two groups – those few who are politically active and support their parents’ views and those who are politically passive and support their parents’ views. Rare exceptions exist but they will just vote overall as their parents do. They are just as thick or as intelligent as the average and probably less well informed and have lived less long and absorbed less info.
Although they are allowed the vote – it should only be those working and paying taxes who are allowed to vote. That’s my opinion and I see no evidence to contradict it in general.
“it should only be those working and paying taxes who are allowed to vote. That’s my opinion and I see no evidence to contradict it in general.”
Stevie, you must realise that this would instantly disenfranchise anyone who lost their job, as well as removing the vote from a huge number of low-wage earners who don’t qualify to pay tax because they are too poor? Is your own employment really so secure that you’d be prepared to take the risk of losing your suffrage (which your ancestors fought and died for) every time you questioned the boss, or the company faced a round of compulsory redundancies?
The unemployed have often lost their jobs due to the kock-on effects of bad government, yet you would make them unable to vote against that government, and exclude them from the democratic process altogether? Corporations would love this idea, but I reckon you should think it through a bit more.
EDIT: Unless you mean that rule should only apply to 16 and 17 year olds, in which case I’m just not sure it would be practical. Would they have to prove they are employed when registering, and what if they lose their job between being registered and the actual vote?
Votes for taxpayers has something historically democratic about it. The Athenian democracy (the blueprint for European culture), provided suffrage for under a quarter of the population. That’s no votes for most women, most manual workers and definitely none for foreigners. The last two classes had been helpfully defined by Aristotle as “natural slaves”. After all, oligarchy is the only way to run a “moral” society.
A much more recent example would be Northern Ireland, where the “company vote” system, and the extension of suffrage only to “rate payers”, just happened to disenfranchise large numbers of Catholics during local council elections (ooops!) and favoured the election of Unionist councilors even in heavily Nationalist areas. That’s not something I would like to see making a comeback in any area of the UK.
There were some US Republicans not long ago (Tea Party types) who were calling for extra votes to be given to those who had “invested most in society” – ie. property owners – as well. A good way to entrench inequality and preserve the privilleges of the rich, but no way to run a modern democracy.
Aristotle was a bit of a dick really. Plato an’ all.
Don’t say that in Freuchie!
Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle
Monty Python
Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable. H
eidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume Schopenhauer and Hegel,
and Wittgenstein was a beery swine Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
There’s nothing Nietzsche couldn’t teach ya’ ‘Bout the raising of the wrist.
SOCRATES, HIMSELF, WAS PERMANENTLY PISSED…
John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away; Half a crate of whiskey every day.
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
Hobbes was fond of his dram,
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
“I drink, therefore I am” Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed; A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he’s pissed!
Read more: MONTY PYTHON – THE PHILOSOPHERS SONG LYRICS
Apologies for the syntax
To hear it in Friday full flow
click here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtgKkifJ0Pw
Hehe, thanks Bugger (or should I call you Panda?), I had forgotten that song. Just listened to it on Youtube, it’s a cracker.
I think I know what you mean with the Freuchie thing…. but then again, I’m not sure.
@ Bugger (the Panda)
That honestly had me in tears. Class. Also interesting to note that its neigh trachle in Freuchie.
You choose
http://subrosa-blonde.blogspot.fr/2009/12/message-from-b-panda.html
Why I was so named
B (t P)
Jamie A
I hope any kid viewing this site isn’t put off by the air of ridicule from pro-Indys.
Doesn’t matter whether you are 16 or 60, if you go on broadcast TV to ask a question (actually it was more of a statement) you’d best do your homework beforehand -clearly she didn’t.
As Doug Daniel said, I too spotted her well before she raised her question when the cameras went around the audience she couldn’t hide the anger on her face when a pro-indy comment got a rapturous applause. So, sorry no, I have no sympathy for ‘Miss Mustard’ whatsoever. Of course I hope she eventually sees the light and comes around to a YES vote based on the truth, but I am not about to tread on eggshells and defend her stupidity.
There are currently no English tanks on Scottish streets, but there have been before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square
The “mustard” colour indicates a plant. So uniquely eye-catching.
I really ought to stop playing with words though.
O/T
If anyone is interested Iceland has stopped negotiating with the EU for membership following a change in political balance after their recent GE
The EU will work etc etc
So what the fuck is Darling and his bunch of Westminster Crooks PLC doing saying post independence we will be EU pariahs
“””EDIT: Unless you mean that rule should only apply to 16 and 17 year olds, in which case I’m just not sure it would be practical. Would they have to prove they are employed when registering, and what if they lose their job between being registered and the actual vote?”””
Yes, kids.
They are no more or less thick tha their parents but infinitely more impressionable and easy to convince in a family situation. Anybody doubting that just need to look at the recent polls and thekids generally (with the exception of 1 poll not since repeated) just vote percentage wise as their parents do. That said, if someone is below 18 and paying tax then they should have the right. The queston that was asked by the thick teenager (thick is unfair – poorly informed and impressionable) proves how out of touch her parents were and how easily convinced she herself is.
Blimey, I hope I never ask a dumb question on this politically savvy site, if this is how a young 16 year old lassie gets treated! I thought on the whole the audience of youngsters did just fine, considering their overwhelming focus will be on homework & hormones! They were certainly no worse than an adult audience. I was young & foolish once & now…I’m older. :/
As for kids following their parents…..
My dad was a nasty capitalist owner of mens sweat, yet I joined the Workers Revolutionary Party at age 18.:-)
Vee Mack says:
Blimey, I hope I never ask a dumb question on this politically savvy site…
I feel I have to say you are giving the lady more credit than she is due. As has been said in other posts, she attended a “political TV programme”, it was not an Open University fact finding show. She appears to have made a poorly researched planted question, that owed more to the drip feeding of negative information by the BBC & MSM, than actual normal thought process. When you state an opinion as a question on a political broadcast then you leave yourself open to criticism. I can’t help thinking about the line, “better to stay silent and be thought a fool…”
I bet she ends up working for BBC in Scotland as a researcher sooner or later.
I felt my shoulders sag when the kid complained that the SNP had engineered the reading of Scottish literature in Schools in order to to manipulate the vote in favour of yes, O.M.G so the reading of literature should be seen as manipulation? cringe personified
There was shocking ignorance shown throughout the show – GG spouting nonsense about a trillions calls intercepted each year – errr no, not if it’s the Verizon incident. Not pulled up about it. The total piffle about broken laws… ummm not aware any laws have been broken – it’s all perfectly legal in the US under the patriot act.
Total p1sh spouted about “our stuff should be private and protected” err naww – if you bloody dumb enough to GIVE you personal data to an American company tough sh1t – read the T&C’s. Once you upload you don’t own it and it’s under US jurisdiction.
Then more cr@p about our “rights to privacy” – err well kiddies are you a US citizen? No – well tough – you ain’t got no rights in this case….
Gawds sake.
But there was at least one kid smart enough to know that under the PA any US company handing over your data MUST NOT TELL YOU it’s been handed over – smart cookie that one.
“Excellent. Cocktail hour never comes a moment too soon.”
chin chin
well down the line here
“Although they are allowed the vote – it should only be those working and paying taxes who are allowed to vote. That’s my opinion and I see no evidence to contradict it in general.”
Not from Larkhall by any chance Stevie?
John King – there’s a point there though,,,,
Ah, fair enough Stevie. Thought you meant that the “taxpayers’ only” rule would apply to all ages. Glad you replied before I started ranting on about economic apartheid or something.
I still don’t really agree with you though. I reckon the franchise (for all votes) should be as wide as is sensibly possible. I’d even give prisoners the vote, on the principle that those who have the most contact with (and exposure to) the full powers of the state should at least be allowed the minimum of input into how the state is run.
It’s true that teenagers of that age are impressionable right enough – I was a unionist myself at 16 and 17, through vague and general peer pressure in the school rather than the home, combined with a near total disinterest in the issues (even though I was at least somewhat knowledgeable on Scottish history – Jacobites and the Bruce rather than Defoe and the Union, of course).
We probably are being a bit harsh on the QT lassie, all things considered. There are professional journalists and politicians who are no less misinformed than her. That’s the real problem, of which her own ignorance is merely a symptomn.
Juteman said: “My dad was a nasty capitalist owner of mens sweat.”
Oh aye, Men’s Sweat. I remember that nightclub. lol.
The BritNat kids pathetically pushed the same BritNat level of garbage – actually, they didn’t ask questions, just like the girl featured in the pic didn’t ask a question. They simply made statements à la J-Low. Their grasp of their facts was shoddy and their points incorrect, or very very poor. The BritNat kids lowered the quality of the information in the show as is their wont… the ScotNats were better but not by much at all.
They will vote as their parents tell them to with rare exceptions and thus it doesn’t in the end matter a jot whether they vote or not since the % vote will reflect the parental voting preferences.
Crap programme, crap qustions and a complete waste of time.
I must admit – I was shocked at just how politically ignorant the audience is – I suspect their parents will not be a lot better formed. Oh well…
I always voted the opposite of what my parents voted.
I still can’t really believe that a teenage who applied to be on QT could be so politically naive.
It would be a good idea if someone from the SNP could get in touch with her and go over all of her concerns.
Wouldn’t it be awful if she voted No and then found out that she was going to have to pay tuition fees because she had fallen for the Better Together disinformation?
Not commenting on this particular case as I didn’t see this edition of the programme. However, in general terms, no-one can surely be surprised at the calibre of the QT audience, can they? How many times does an interesting discussion start to build with a given panel – who are generally there because they’re either accountable or experts and therefore (theoretically at least) have something of interest and note to say – only for Dimbleby to yet again interrupt and switch to the audience, with some witless, dullard question, observation, or other. It’s infuriating and goes back to what I was saying the other day about the electorate in general these days.
If you want a higher class of political debate and discussion, it has to be R4’s Any Questions and the Any Answers follow up. Good old R4 – say what you like about the BBC but it’s priceless; the last bastion of the literate and moderately sentient.
Morning Captain
Say what you like about the BBC…
Steady now 🙂
Morning’ mate 😀
I’ve had the week from Hell; nothing like a good ol’ rant to signal the start of the weekend! (I feel better for that now 😀 )
Plenty of people of all ages get the wrong end of the stick and very few people are educated about politics. The only person who said young people should not vote was Ruth Davidson who doesn’t care what any Scot thinks, whatever their age.
You’ve aligned yourself with Ruth and the kid who said he felt too ‘ill informed’ to make a choice. There will be plenty of people voting who will be doing so not on facts but feelings and part of those feelings will be based around how the debate is conducted.
What’s the thinking behind putting up a picture of this young person on this article? Children nowadays live online and there is a small chance this could open up the lass to bullying. More importantly though it looks like we’re ‘shaming’ people who don’t agree with us which is just very silly.
You’re already being attacked on facebook for this which could mean the media will pick it up.
We are talking here about people who have only just become engaged with politics and are trying to find out more. Kniving them online seems to me to be entirely self defeating.
What’s the actual point? I think maybe those Scots kids are ‘too thick’ to vote? When we’ve got folk like Ross Greer who are kicking the butts of professional politicians?
Get real.
If you want a higher class of political debate and discussion, it has to be R4?s Any Questions and the Any Answers follow up.
Any Answers? The programme that proves that it’s possible to actually speak in green ink?
If that young lady was not an agent provocateur for independence, then god help us all,
if hers is the level of intelligence of our youth, Im sorry to bellitle a young person but she needn’t worry if the SNP will reintroduce student fees post independence because she’s clearly not intelligent enough to get into university
possibly she will qualify for the university of life, but it’ll be a close thing:(
“Any Answers? The programme that proves that it’s possible to actually speak in green ink?”
Heh, well, if you say so. Certainly there are a few eccentrics in the ranks of the people who ring in. Personally though, I’ll take “eccentric” over “stupid” any day. I’ve never suffered fools gladly.
There has been a lot of discussion on the comment the girl made, but Angus Robertson answered it. Perhaps it would be best to remove her image from the comments page, as someone pointed out this is being picked up. A general discussion would be useful, no need to be seen as targeting an individual.
“What’s the thinking behind putting up a picture of this young person on this article? Children nowadays live online and there is a small chance this could open up the lass to bullying. More importantly though it looks like we’re ‘shaming’ people who don’t agree with us which is just very silly.”
1. She’s not a child. Everyone on the show was 16 or 17, which like it or not is “adult”.
2. We generally illustrate articles with pictures of the people concerned.
3. Complaining about a picture on a website is a bit daft when her face has already been broadcast to 2-3 million people on national TV and however many more on iPlayer. She was presumably fine with the idea of being seen when she decided to go on the show, and then to stick her hand up and speak.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
She’s not a child. Everyone on the show was 16 or 17, which like it or not is “adult”.
exactly
its a tough world out there, and you get no slack cut, its good day to learn that lesson.