The lesser of two stupids
Let’s start off by losing some more friends. This site has no time for the Gaelic lobby. The obsolete language spoken by just 0.9% of Scotland’s population might be part of the nation’s “cultural heritage”, but so were burning witches and replacing Highlanders with sheep and we don’t do those any more either.
Being multilingual is an excellent thing, but the significant amount of time and effort taken to learn a literally-pointless second language (because everyone you can talk to in Gaelic already understood English) would be vastly better directed to picking up one that was actually of some use, and every extra fraction of a second spent scanning a road sign trying to find the bit you can read is a fraction of a second spent with your eyes off the road.
Non-primary native languages are a tool whose main utility in practice is at best the exclusion of outsiders, and at worst an expression of dodgy blood-and-soil ethnic nationalism. They’re a barrier to communication and an irritation to the vast majority of the population, who are made to feel like uncultured aliens in their own land.
But we’d still rather put up with Gaelic than complete idiots making our laws.
Jackson Carlaw is the Deputy Leader of the Scottish Conservatives, the party’s health spokesman, and its former chairman. He was castigated for making a series of racist jokes at a party event in 2005, but also objected to the golden eagle being made Scotland’s official bird last year because it was a “fascist” symbol.
Last night he tweeted the picture above, which is taken from a Facebook page called “SMASH the SNP” and populated by the sort of demented knuckle-draggers that you’d expect to populate a Facebook page called “SMASH the SNP”.
Its central allegation – that the Scottish Government has spent £26 MILLION painting Gaelic names on road signs in some parts of the country, presumably using paint made from crushed diamonds and unicorn fur – is so fatuously, obviously stupid that you wouldn’t even expect to see it in the Daily Record.
Oh.
£26m is in fact roughly £3m more than the entire annual budget for ALL Gaelic-related activities in Scotland under the six-year Gaelic National Language Plan, including the TV station BBC Alba (which accounts for almost half of the sum – £12.8m – by itself and does a valuable job even for English speakers, broadcasting lower-league football and minority sports like shinty, albeit most viewers can’t follow the commentary).
The government body charged with promoting the language, the Bòrd na Gàidhlig, has an annual budget of just £5.1m. Independent research suggests that such investment actually pays for itself in terms of various benefits to the economy.
Bilingual roadsigns weren’t instigated by the SNP as part of its dastardly obsession with inculcating separatism, but by the first Labour/Lib Dem administration in 2003 in the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, which set out “the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language”. It was passed by the second Labour/Lib Dem government in 2005, and subsequently enthusiastically backed by many of Carlaw’s Tory colleagues.
“I come from a party that, as Ted Brocklebank rightly said, has given considerable support to Gaelic in the past. The Scottish Conservatives have always understood that Gaelic is an essential part of our heritage and, indeed, our social fabric.” – Liz Smith MSP (Mid Scotland and Fife)
Alasdair Morrison was right. I am proud of previous Conservative ministers, such as Malcolm Rifkind and Michael Forsyth, who knew the value of the Gaelic heritage and wanted not to lose it but to encourage it.” – Jamie McGrigor MSP (Highlands and Islands)
Indeed, Carlaw stood for election on a manifesto in 2011 which said that the Scottish Tories “remain committed to the promotion of the Gaelic language and culture”.
The actual total budget for “Gaelic road signs” is not £26m but £2m, and in reality is just the budget for roadsigns generally – Gaelic names will only be added when signs are due to be replaced anyway, making the real cost effectively zero. (The same thing previously happened with railway-station signs.)
We might not be fans of Gaelic, but we’re a great deal more concerned that honking buffoons prone to parroting idiotic drivel from internet nutcases should somehow have found themselves in senior positions in the Scottish Parliament.
Should Scottish Labour implode any further (as well they might) and should – Heaven forbid, of course – some dreadful accident befall Ruth Davidson, Jackson Carlaw could plausibly be the leader of the Holyrood opposition this time next year.
That fact that that important job could be in the hands of a thunderingly witless moron is a far more serious problem for Scotland than spending a couple of quid on a small (and actually self-financing) cultural indulgence for a minority.
Blergh!
That went well then and Mr Carlaw who was the real villain of the piece, the real threat… well he got an easy ride.
The people who want to see an independent, modern, inclusive and tolerant Scotland don’t have to agree on every single issue, but we do have to know and agree upon who and what the real enemy is.
To be candid, there’s a lot of the English language as used by England’s politicians I cannot understand, but they get trillions in taxes and subsidies, and take over other people’s countries to keep things that way.
@ John King
who cares what ignorant Unionist propagandists think of us?
They will belittle any and every characteristic which marks us out as different. If we live as objects of others’ disdain there is little point in independence.
I’m looking for classes on Gaelic As A Second Language.
It would be good to be able to pronounce place names, hills and other topographical features properly.
Some of the best programmes on BBBC Scotland are made and broadcast by BBC ALBA – just thought I’d throw that in to annoy somebody , anybody.
As a non Gaelic speaker but a reasonable reader , I really have enjoyed them.
Your comments are poorly considered and below par here:
“””The obsolete language spoken by just 0.9% of Scotland’s population might be part of the nation’s “cultural heritage”, but so were burning witches and replacing Highlanders with sheep and we don’t do those any more either.”””
Demonising Gaelic, comparing it to burning witches – absurd
“””every extra fraction of a second spent scanning a road sign trying to find the bit you can read is a fraction of a second spent with your eyes off the road.”””
Drivers learning to read road signs manage very well – they arn’t confused, you might be but evidence please.
“””Non-primary native languages are a tool whose main utility in practice is at best the exclusion of outsiders,”””
Tripe – the national languages of the Celtic nations are beautiful and add to our culture – they are our culture and nothing to do with excluding anyone; you could say the same about NativeAmerican languages – they are better preserved than lost.
“””and at worst an expression of dodgy blood-and-soil ethnic nationalism.”””
I take it this is a joke.
“””They’re a barrier to communication and an irritation to the vast majority of the population, who are made to feel like uncultured aliens in their own land.”””
prove that trite statement
Save your ire for those who deserve it.
http://radicalsoapbox.com/is-neo-liberalism-really-fascism-light/
Tucked away in rancid, SNP Scots.gov maybe not turning the Scotland region into a shithole, although that “rarely” is rather English of them-
https://archive.is/P9lR0
“Rarely are the differences between an English and Scottish minister so publicly exposed.
In Scotland, where 83% of land is privately owned, the SNP government will shortly introduce legislation giving it powers to intervene if the scale of land ownership and the conduct of a landowner is considered a barrier to sustainable development.
It also plans a Scottish land reform commission to help tenant farmers buy their holdings, amend the rights of succession so landowners can no longer leave estates to a single heir, and reintroduce business rates on sporting estates. This will help fund the doubling of community land ownership to one million acres to create “a fairer and more equitable distribution of land”, says Lochhead.
As he told me: “Any reasonable person would look at Scotland and recognise that the concentrated pattern of land ownership – Europe’s most extreme – can be an obstacle to economic development and … communities having a say over their own destiny.
It is a concentration of power and wealth that should be shared.” While in quiescent England the prospect of Scottish-style legislation remains slim, could the reformist waves from Scotland ripple across the border?”
How they all went ukok batshit crazy when they caught wind of it. If you can speak Gaelic you’re unbelievably lucky. If you voted Nicola Sturgeon, you can think too:D
This from Libby Carrell, interrupting her/his hols for the royals outrage at Sturgeon fun
Nicola Sturgeon denies plan to cut Scottish funding of royal family
@Capella 7.51am
Pronunciation of Gaelic really is easy once you know the rules. You can pronounce any new written word you come across even if you’ve never heard it said before. What a striking contrast to English!
Any beginners book will introduce you to these rules but that’s really dry and liable to put you off even before you start. Far more interesting and fun is to listen to words written on a screen being spoken out loud. That’s exactly what http://learngaelic.net/ does.
You’ll be amazed how quickly you start to get a feel for the rules and soon you’ll find yourself able to pronounce amazingly long and complicated looking words with ease and start to savour the wonderful sounds of this venerable old tongue.
Disappointed by this unnecessary spat.
As an Irish supporter of Scots Independence I am very aware of how difficult it is to get arguments across in the face of the power of the (British) State & institutions like the BBC.
So why cut a stick for your (Rev’s) enemies to beat you with?
But time to move on I’d suggest.
Capella says: “It would be good to be able to pronounce place names, hills and other topographical features properly.”
awks 4 u m8
Interestingly, but not surprisingly, many Unionists are keen to point out Shetland has/had it’s own language and are equally keen to highlight the ‘separate culture’.
I think Stu should have displayed a little more political nous. The rant about Gaelic should have been left out, perhaps for a separate discussion if he felt it was important. As Macart says, with one bound Carlaw was free and our enemies have been handed a free pass.
Link disappeared, there must have been a gremlin somewhere.
Ach well best save our ire for the real monsters, the tories and neo liberals hell bent on causing havoc.
This site is our best hope for sharing and caring, lets not lose it.
@ Cal
Thanks, will do!
@t42
I get the end of your message but not the “awks”. I’m even less familiar with txt than Gaelic (maybe just as well).
To return to the Gaelic Railway Signs.
Well worth while.
NO STATION IN ENGLAND has Gaelic Signage!
We are different. We are SCOTLAND.
Macart at 7.40am.
Tunnel vision mac. First get independence, then sort out the minutiae. And the “real”enemy, as has been proved time and time again, are the Westminster establishment, of any hue, aided by their co-conspirators, the M.S.M.
Robert Knight. Lothian Buses have added a rather colourful livery to many of their buses. The number 37 is named the Pen-Y-Cog. However, they claim it as Bythronic rather than Gaelic.
The Drunkbirder has a couple of photos here:
https://thedrunkbirder.wordpress.com/tag/lothian-buses/
“There are no countries outside of the UK (other than those where it’s the primary language, eg the USA and Australia, of course) where EVERYONE speaks English.”
Well that’s a pretty vacuous statement: even in the UK, US, Australia, New Zealand not everyone speaks English. Only in some low population countries do you ever reach 100%. In The Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway the proportion speaking English approaches 90%. Would you seriously learn Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian with the sole purpose of conversing with the remaining 10%? Of course not – learning even a bit of a new language is a way into a different culture. And that applies to Gaelic as much as it does to other languages.
Good article though, and good discussion…
Speaking of language and culture – call Kaye is whipping up the anti-Scottish Government education policy phone in.
“No one else went on attack against an entire culture.”
No one did, at all. Remove the “else”.
Your hysterical inferences are far too emotional. Have a lie down.
@Stevie
“Demonising Gaelic, comparing it to burning witches – absurd”
–he didn’t. What he did was clearly state that just because something has a label of “cultural heritage”, that’s no excuse to continue funding it at everyone’s expense.
“Drivers learning to read road signs manage very well – they arn’t confused, you might be but evidence please.”
Can you provide evidence for them not being confused? When I drive around the Highlands and have to look for an extra second or so to find the name that I understand, that extra second can lead to issues, especially in the pishing rain.
“the national languages of the Celtic nations are beautiful and add to our culture – they are our culture and nothing to do with excluding anyone; you could say the same about NativeAmerican languages – they are better preserved than lost.”
They’re beautiful to you. That’s your taste. My taste is that they’re guttural and sound ugly. Subjective is not objective.
In my work we have many multi-lingual people. If I’m in a meeting with two Germans and they start speaking Italian rather than English, then I am excluded, because I cannot speak German.
Ashley Drake = )
Yesterday I heard on the radio that Barack Obama had decreed that Mount Mckinley in Alaska, the highest mountain in America,(flipping huge actualy!) named after a president who had never even visited Alaska, was to be recognised henchforth by its original Alaskan native American name Donali which means ‘The High One’.
Reminds me of our Ben More!
I don’t often agree with an American president but in this Mr Obama has done well.
(Apparently, my favourite clown Donald Trump thinks this is an insult to Ohio!!?! Am guessing this is the state of birth of Mr Mckinley, some distance from Alaska…)
And I think this ties in well with our discussions on Scotland’s native languages and culture.
Another clown, Mr Carlaw, would do well to take note.
@ Macart
Don’t despair. We don’t do despair here do we?
I think we all got the message about Jackson Carlaw and his misinformation campaign culled as it was from a despicable website.
It’s just more fun sticking up for Gaelic. And it’s not even Off Topic as the first three paragraphs are anti “the Gaelic lobby” whoever they may be.
There will be a new post along shortly.
At least Carlaw has the excuse of the Tory Colonial tradition of using attacks on minorities to whip up bigotry and devide people to justify his detestably knowing lies.
The difference is that the Rev has no such comfort blanket for his bigotry – he could easily bring himself up to date on International and EU law on this subject but chooses not to do so – he is comfortable with it and dismissive of those who are better informed.
Nick Griffin is likewise entitled to his views, but that does not make him right.
“People often try and make the case that Gaelic should not have money spent on it because there are more important things like cancer research and helping orphans etc. Does this work for English too?”
Yes. Next?
If you want to promote your own culture (all you’ve done is suggest that your language, and some songs and poetry is culture), then knock yourself out. However, I shouldn’t be paying for you to promote your culture. Just as I shouldn’t be paying for the promotion of opera, or ballet, or One Direction, or Scottish football, or a vast range of personal activities. I don’t expect you to fund my learning of Italian, or cookery classes in how to make bridies.
If any of the above die out, then that will be because there are alternatives that win.
Since, though, Gaelic is so beautiful and rich and varied, and so many people are interested in it, then it won’t die off, will it? In fact, it will continue to thrive without my financial support (said financial support that pays above 40% tax a year towards a vast range of stuff already).
I wonder how many of you moaning about Stuart’s comments rail at being forced to pay for the BBC.
You’re a bunch of hypocrites if you do.
“Gaelic is the FIRST language for many in Scotland. They are taxpayers. They deserve services in their own language. Jesus wept.”
I’m coming to realise that, because so many people here evidently can’t read fucking English. Where did you hear me say Gaelic people didn’t deserve services in Gaelic? I said the OPPOSITE of that. I said those services paid for themselves so everyone whining about the cost of them should shut up. But rather than grasp that incredibly simple point, people have just jumped on an excuse to air their pet grievances. It’s getting wearisome.
I’d never heard of these Smash SNP people till yesterday so I thought I’d have a wee look !!SHEESH!! The First Minister’s right, we need some sort of testing in schools, this lot escaped all forms of educational efforts
I’m off to get some antibiotics
Unfortunately just tuned in to hear wall to wall Labour love in at Call Kaye with Scott Arthur and Keir Bloomer as well as Iain Gray all attacking the SNP education proposals.
@Capella
Heh, just felt a wee rain cloud forming over the old dome this morning. 😉
“As a first-language Gaelic speaker, are you aware, Stu, how your contempt and disparagement of my language, my heritage, my culture, music, dance, art and literature makes me feel”
You’re going to have to point me to where I showed contempt for your music, dance, art and literature. (As for the first three, I suspect you’re using “language, heritage and culture” to all mean the same thing.)
“If there had been no clearances, and no attempt to destroy the language for over 250 years, what would the percentage of speakers be now.”
Who cares? In what way would we be better off if we had a country that was more divided by language than it is? But more to the point, those things DID happen, and they’re never going to un-happen. I care about the future of Scotland, not endlessly griping about the ancient past.
“Stu
With the benefit of hindsight, you should have perhaps had two articles:
1. Highlighting the lies over the costs of the investment in Gaelic; and
2. You personally couldn’t give a shit about Gaelic.”
Well, no. They were intrinsically linked, in a way that a lot of people were depressingly too stupid to notice. At least Paula Honey Rose got it in her article (linked in Trackbacks at the top of comments), even if she still doesn’t like how I feel about Gaelic.
@Alex Beveridge
Had a good rant elsewhere along the same lines Alex. 😀
I don’t know about extra seconds to read a sign but in my experience I pick out the town or city straight away as the English version is in big white letters and the Gaelic equivalent is in a darker yellow colour and written in a smaller font size.
The Rev (and indeed the rest of you) might find this from Radio 4 last night an interesting listen.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b067wnnb
In Cornwall they are proposing to use bilingual road signs as and when they replace their old signs.
The Cornish also state that from studies here and abroad,learning a second language can help offset cognitive problems like alzheimer`s.
“A silly belief in the Darwinian nature of languages that totally ignores the deliberate political manouvering that has always been at play.”
Sigh. It’s got nothing to do with Darwinism. I don’t think English “triumphed” because it was better than Gaelic. The point is merely that it DID triumph, for good or ill, and now everyone in the country speaks it. It won and that’s that. Bleating on about all the centuries of oppression and whatnot is a bit like a football fan still complaining about a disputed penalty six months later. It’s done and it’s never going to be un-done. Get on with your life.
I don’t think I’ve seen so many comments disagreeing with your negative comments about Gaelic, totally detracting from the valid point you were making.
I don’t suppose it’s in your make-up to admit that your first three paragraphs were in poor judgement. Too big to admit that you might have been wrong.
Paula rose @ 12.29 am
(And the revs mum)
Lol lol lol thank you
Iain More wrote, “the intolerance, the bigotry and racism of the British/English Cultural Nationalists. Oh and their arrogant and ignorance. He could have chosen a better way to highlight the goose-stepping of the average British Nationalist though.” There are indeed some appalling examples of intolerance, bigotry and racism by some British/English Cultural Nationalists, and of arrogance and ignorance.
But to write that all are guilty of these sins is just as bad and inaccurate a generalisation. And those who support a united Britain are not Nazis, thank you (‘the goose-stepping of the average British Nationalist’ -Iain).
“It’s remarkable how attached people are to being oppressed hundreds of years ago.”
My father was belted at school numerous times for speaking Gaelic. This was in South Uist and clearly not hundreds of years ago if his son is alive and posting on here!
I think the second part of this piece is an excellent resource … shame about the first part, with its utilitarian view of language. Let’s all just speak Mandarin then!
It prompted my (somewhat oblique) response here:
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2015/09/thaidhcu-nan-gaidheal-gaelic-haiku.html
This irks me too.
“Hey I said some stuff, I was firmly rebuked by my readership and, after reading some of the comments I can now see that my initial comments were wrong. Thank you for making me aware that as well as the language still being actively spoken, it has value well beyond that for its cultural and historical significance, not to mention the well documented educational benefits of learning a second language.”
Your posts are often well researched and relevant, but you do appear to be short of an ability to put your hands in the air and accept that sometimes you are wrong. Particularly disapointing since the main point of the original post was perfectly valid.
Marko
“Hey I said some stuff, I was firmly rebuked by my readership and, after reading some of the comments I can now see that my initial comments were wrong. Thank you for making me aware that as well as the language still being actively spoken, it has value well beyond that for its cultural and historical significance, not to mention the well documented educational benefits of learning a second language”
If you used that tone to speak to him face-to-face, you’d perhaps get your lights put out.
There are far more benefits of learning a second language like Spanish or Chinese, than there are of learning Gaelic.
John King
Not forcing Gaelic down anyone’s throats. When did I or anyone else do that?
You can’t debate reasonably so you tell me to shut up. That is really mature of you.
Your hyperbolic response shows nothing more than a cultural cringe when it comes to Gaelic.
I mean really!
“What I do have a problem with is people who see anything other than a desire to force Gaelic down others throats as an existential threat to the very fabric of our country,
Oh my God we just got those idiots to stop calling us “braveheart separatists” because we saw a film, now they will be accusing us of wanting to paint our arses blue sing Pibrochs and live in a hole in the ground!”
Because I defended Gaelic from being called pointless this is your response! You imply it somehow makes us ultra nationalists of the most ludicrous type (paint our arses blue sing Pibrochs and live in a hole in the ground). Oh well in future I won’t defend it because I fear your ridicule! Would you like that? Just ridicule the whinging Gaels and paint them as cartoon character and tell them to shut the hell up. Free speech alive and well unless anyone dare stand up to the precious Rev.
Why should defending Gaelic make us ridiculous cartoon character ultra nationalists? Gaels do not have one political outlook and very many don’t support independence. You seem to be implying we are somehow old fashioned, a bit of an embarrassment. This says more about your ignorance and prejudice than it does about the modern Gaelic world.
More of the same weak understanding of the topic and infantile response/protect the rev at all costs (but not with any informed debate) no matter what he says. That is what will be a gift to unionists not my defending a language and culture being called pointless (a lot of unionists will agree with me).
“Hey I said some stuff, I was firmly rebuked by my readership and, after reading some of the comments I can now see that my initial comments were wrong.”
This isn’t a democracy. You don’t get to decide what my opinion is by weight of mob.
@john king 6:26 am:
“Domhnall MacCoinnich says (I have to copy and paste your name because I cant be arsed spelling it)”
Seriously?
“now they will be accusing us of wanting to paint our arses blue sing Pibrochs and live in a hole in the ground!”
So essentially, you’re worried you might be thought of as some kind of ignorant, backward, ill-educated savage – by the opposition?
Ok.
The arguments on here from the Rev and his fans are just too puerile. English won so all other languages are pointless? FFS.
I have a very strong suspicion that none of the detractors on here have more than a very very slight knowledge about the Gaelic world. They just repeat the same old bullshit. Mandarin is more important to learn. Well go and learn it then.n Except no one is really are they. In fact the British attitude to other languages has meant most Brits are monolingual. Gaelic medium helps kids become bilingual which can far more easily lead to multilingualism. I don’t see any great rush to teaxch our kkids Mandarin btw. Why don’t all those attacking Gaelic start a Mandarin lobby and get Mandarin medium education going? You would have the thumbs up from me. It isn’t Gaelic and nothing else you see. Gaelic medium doesn’t cost the tax payer anymore than English medium so (as the rev was saying folks) there is no extra cost.
Bilingual people have been shown in studies to have more empathy to others. Judging by the inane comments on here a lot of you could do with taking up a second language. That are trying to actually find something out about the subject you are commenting on.
I have had enough of this now. I can see only the most petulant, puerile and pathetic are left trying to defend the indefensible.
Good luck with that folks!
“I think the second part of this piece is an excellent resource … shame about the first part, with its utilitarian view of language. Let’s all just speak Mandarin then!”
Great idea. And “utilitarian” is exactly my view.
“Hey I said some stuff, I was firmly rebuked by my readership and, after reading some of the comments I can now see that my initial comments were wrong.”
“This isn’t a democracy. You don’t get to decide what my opinion is by weight of mob.”
Is that an apology I see? And the “weight of mob” (what a pejorative term for your readers!)is not trying to change your opinion, merely showing you how mixed up your thinking is.
And no one expects it to be or wants to decide your opinion. My point was that sometimes, if you are swimming against the tide, it is worth considering whether you are swimming the wrong way. It may not be a democracy, but it is a conversation.
Chris Baxter says:
2 September, 2015 at 10:44 am
There are far more benefits of learning a second language like Spanish or Chinese, than there are of learning Gaelic.
What are these extra benefits to be gained from learning Spanish or Chinese?
You learn more about Spain, Spanish culture, Spanish history, Spanish literature and when you go on holiday you can order a beer in Spanish even if the barman can speak English. Although you might run into problems in Barcelona if you meet someone who is reluctant to speak the ‘Spanish’ you have learned.
Some people do go further and learn more than just how to order a beer in Spanish but that is a very small percentage of the population I would be surprised if it is more than 1%. Computer translation programmes are probably making people reluctant to spend too much time learning a language in order to find employment.
I’m not suggesting teaching Spanish is a waste of money as knowing about Spanish culture, history, literature and being able to order a beer in Spanish is all good.
“I have a very strong suspicion that none of the detractors on here have more than a very very slight knowledge about the Gaelic world. They just repeat the same old bullshit. Mandarin is more important to learn. Well go and learn it then.n Except no one is really are they.”
Perhaps it’s you who should do some research/learning (since you’re so keen on suggesting that).
“In 2010, 750,000 people (670,000 from overseas) took the Chinese Proficiency Test.”
That’s globally, sure. But how many people in Scotland learn Gaelic as a second language every year?
And yet again you conflate the Gaelic language with Gaelic culture.
All hail the new utilitarian language, free from the constraints of beauty, emotion, context, interpretation; ignorant to national, historic or cultural differences.
Maybe someone could write a futuristic dystopian novel where everyone uses this language, working title: “2051”.
????
This is what I get when I ask Google Translate to put “reductio as absurdum” into Simplified Chinese … I trust this helps 🙂
“And the “weight of mob” (what a pejorative term for your readers!)is not trying to change your opinion, merely showing you how mixed up your thinking is.”
It’s the same thing. The argument you and others are putting forward is:
“because most of the commenters on this topic are saying that you’re wrong, then you are wrong.”
If history has taught us anything, it’s that just because the majority believes something to be correct, that doesn’t make it so.
Let’s bring back the death penalty, eh?
And One Direction, a truly wonderful band.
The Sun = the best paper in the UK.
Having thought about this a while, it seems to me that the Rev’s opening remarks, to the effect that Gaelic is simply a private pastime of no *public* worth, effectively sabotages his main point.
For if Gaelic has no civic value, then *any* amount of public money spent on it is money wasted, be that £2 or two million. So unless he can show that nothing at all comes from the public purse, then he has no argument.
Marko
“All hail the new utilitarian language, free from the constraints of beauty, emotion, context, interpretation; ignorant to national, historic or cultural differences.”
Yet more disingenuousness. I bet you do a great line in false dichotomies.
“There is, however, something of a grey area around whether Mr Darling also accused the entire SNP of promoting “blood-and-soil nationalism” – an extremely offensive term normally used in reference to Nazi Germany, where it translated as “Blut und Boden”.
______________________
It is equally offensive when written by you to describe Gaeldom.
@Ruby
“What are these extra benefits to be gained from learning Spanish or Chinese?
You learn more about Spain, Spanish culture, Spanish history, Spanish literature and when you go on holiday you can order a beer in Spanish even if the barman can speak English. Although you might run into problems in Barcelona if you meet someone who is reluctant to speak the ‘Spanish’ you have learned.”
A billion people speak a form of Chinese as their first language.
400 million people speak Spanish as their first language (which is more than the number of people who speak English as their first language).
We live in a global economy. Trade happens between different countries, and between different languages. People migrate.
Life isn’t just about a holiday in Tenerife.
“I’m not suggesting teaching Spanish is a waste of money as knowing about Spanish culture, history, literature and being able to order a beer in Spanish is all good.”
Staggering parochialism there, Ruby.
to Peter Clive.
Maybe if you had entered “reductio AD absurdum” you would have been shown a sensible answer.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell says 9:46 am
“I’m coming to realise that, because so many people here evidently can’t read fucking English…”
“…people have just jumped on an excuse to air their pet grievances.”
I can read English and, last year, I read this:
“… Mr Darling also accused the entire SNP of promoting “blood-and-soil nationalism” – an extremely offensive term normally used in reference to Nazi Germany, where it translated as “Blut und Boden”.” (from “What Alistair Darling Said”, posted on June 05, 2014)
Using that particular phrase – clearly one of your own “pet grievances” – seems an odd demonstration of defending the provision of Gaelic services. Or, indeed, any other issue.
You might have received a sensible answer if you had entered “reductio AD absurdum”.
Gaelic Medeium Workplaces?
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-gaelic-medium-workplace-obair-tro.html
Gaelic Medium Workplaces, anyone?
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-gaelic-medium-workplace-obair-tro.html
“I have had enough of this now. I can see only the most petulant, puerile and pathetic are left trying to defend the indefensible.”
And yet you’re the one who accuses others of trying to shout down others, implying ad hominem attacks.
Pots, kettles, etc.
Peter Clive says:
2 September, 2015 at 11:48 am
????
This is what I get when I ask Google Translate to put “reductio as absurdum” into Simplified Chinese … I trust this helps 🙂
I tried it and got
????
Ji?nsh?o hu?ngmiù
IMO, an utlitarian approach to policy formation is the quick road to ruin and damnation. Mr. Magoo springs to mind.
P.S. a utitlitarian approach to public policy is largely what has placed civil society’s future on the edge of a knife
Chris Baxter says:
We live in a global economy. Trade happens between different countries, and between different languages. People migrate.
Life isn’t just about a holiday in Tenerife.
Staggering luddism there, Chris.
Future communication will involve ‘talking to the ipad’
Learning the history, culture, literature of Spain is great but then so is learning the history, culture, literature of Scotland or does that make me parrochial?
To “a supporter” … I curse that close proximity of the letters “s” and “d” on a qwerty keyboard!
Reductio *ad* absurdum gives ???
I also curse this blog platform’s inability to render simplified Chinese characters!
https://translate.google.co.uk/#auto/zh-CN/Reductio%20ad%20absurdum
A “love letter to Gaelic” …
http://moflomojo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/cha-chreid-mi-nach-e.html
To Chris Baxter.
Wings’ sole supporter on this site. Go and ply your creepy trade elsewhere. Sycophants are unwelcome
My last (really this time) parting shot.
The only difference between the arguments coming out on here against Gaelic and the ones you get on the Telegraph is that the people on the Telegraph have usually given it more thought and sometimes even know a bit more about the subject.
Sad but true.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13207315.Insular__parochial_and_narrowly_nationalist__Scotland_s_anti_Gaelic_bigots/?ref=fbshr
Monolingualism breeds contempt for other cultures. It is what is truly archaic, insular and parochial.
I am bemused by the heat this topic has generated. So in an effort to understand, I have dissected what the Rev. said.
“This site has no time for the Gaelic lobby”
Well that is a statement of fact of which the Rev is the sole judge.
“The obsolete language spoken by just 0.9% of Scotland’s population might be part of the nation’s “cultural heritage”, but so were burning witches and replacing Highlanders with sheep and we don’t do those any more either.”
I can’t confirm the figure of 0.9%, but I have no reason to doubt it. I think the Rev’s point is that just because something is part of our cultural heritage does not mean that it is good or desirable or that we should do it today. It’s hard to disagree with that and his two examples illustrate the point well.
“Being multilingual is an excellent thing.”
Hard to disagree with that.
“but the significant amount of time and effort taken to learn a literally-pointless second language (because everyone you can talk to in Gaelic already understood English) would be vastly better directed to picking up one that was actually of some use”
This is a distinctly utilitarian view of language and from that perspective it is hard to disagree. It does however ignore the possibility that some people might enjoy speaking Gaelic for whatever reason (in the same way that some people enjoy playing or watching football) so in that sense it is not pointless. My personal view here – I would somewhat disagree with the Rev. because it is not pointless if people take pleasure from it.
“and every extra fraction of a second spent scanning a road sign trying to find the bit you can read is a fraction of a second spent with your eyes off the road.”
I agree with this sentiment completely. I find the signs in Gaelic extremely irritating and they are confusing. Road safety is too important to indulge ourselves in this way. We should have signs in the language of the majority – if there are any areas where Gaelic speakers are a majority then the signs should be in Gaelic in these areas.
I think those are the offending paragraphs. The Rev makes one point with which I would disagree, but only if I take a non-utilitarian view of language. It does not seem to merit the outrage of the “Gaelic lobby” (to borrow a phrase). Seems to me that the “Gaelic lobby” is unduly defensive of any dissenting views. I wonder why?
@Ruby
“Staggering luddism there, Chris.
Future communication will involve ‘talking to the ipad’”
I’m not sure what your point is, but I doubt it’s relevant.
“Learning the history, culture, literature of Spain is great but then so is learning the history, culture, literature of Scotland or does that make me parrochial?”
At which point have I been referring to learning history, culture etc? My implication, which I hoped required no further expansion, was Staggering luddism there, Chris.
Future communication will involve ‘talking to the ipad’
“Learning the history, culture, literature of Spain is great but then so is learning the history, culture, literature of Scotland or does that make me parrochial?”
Spain doesn’t have 400 million people, for a start. Spanish is the first language of almost all the countries in South America, and a great deal of people in the United States. Mexico’s official first language is Spanish.
If you understand what parochial means, then you won’t need me to answer what should have been a rhetorical question.
You’re also conflating the history of Scotland with the Gaelic language. My degree was in Politics and Modern History, and much of it was spent on Scotland, and the vast majority of the syllabus was covered in English; there was no need for translations (or English versions) of Gaelic text. Let me make this even clearer – Scotland’s history is far wider and deeper than whatever the Gaelic side brings. Let’s discuss major Scottish events from the 20th Century, and to what primary language do they relate in the main?
You watch BBC Alba, right? Do you ever watch the programme (I can’t remember what it’s called) that’s like the Gaelic version of the Rock n’ Roll Years? I’ve seen the episodes from the 1970s and 1980s, and almost all clips pertain to events where the protagonists spoke English as their first – usually only – language.
Obviously the closer we are to the current day, the more likely events will be dictated in English. But how far back do you want to give your Gaelic history prominence?
I don’t speak Gaelic. I’m from the east coast. Are you suggesting that I don’t know the history, culture, or literature of Scotland unless I know Gaelic?
I’ve been throughout the country to sites that were cleared. Bad Bea on the east coast, between Inverness and Thurso. Ceannebeinne on the North Coast. Various other areas. You don’t need to speak Gaelic to understand the history. Just as you don’t need to speak Polish, German, or Hebrew to understand the Holocaust.
Nor do you need to to enjoy ceilidhs in Ullapool, or do be aware of the impact of the great storm of 1953 that killed people (including my granddad in the Black Isle).
The obsession with the Gaelic language is a red herring. By all means speak it, teach your kids, and anyone who wants to learn. But your implication that it should be funded by all taxpayers isn’t something with which I agree, and neither is the additional implication that Scottish history and culture can’t be appreciated and understood without speaking Gaelic.
“The only difference between the arguments coming out on here against Gaelic and the ones you get on the Telegraph is that the people on the Telegraph have usually given it more thought and sometimes even know a bit more about the subject.”
Miaow. Hiss.
“Monolingualism breeds contempt for other cultures.”
And polyglot snobbery breeds contempt from others. As is the arrogant assumption that Scots speak only English and/or Gaelic.
More Scots speak Spanish than Gaelic.
🙂
“It does not seem to merit the outrage of the “Gaelic lobby” (to borrow a phrase). Seems to me that the “Gaelic lobby” is unduly defensive of any dissenting views. I wonder why?”
Most of the anger directed at the piece has resulted from people wrongly conflating the terms “the Gaelic lobby” and “Gaelic”…
“Wings’ sole supporter on this site. Go and ply your creepy trade elsewhere. Sycophants are unwelcome”
Do you want to fucking make me?
And I tell you what is properly creepy: bullying mob mentality where you and your hysterical mates jump on the back of someone because they don’t share your hypersensitive opinion.
Let’s start off by losing some more friends.
Looks like you succeeded!
“For if Gaelic has no civic value, then *any* amount of public money spent on it is money wasted, be that £2 or two million. So unless he can show that nothing at all comes from the public purse, then he has no argument.”
So you couldn’t be arsed reading to the end, then?
Well done Shuggy you nailed him. Hoist by his own petard?
Extremely offensive when Darling says it but when the Rev says it himself it is somehow not offensive and it is we who are in the wrong.
Shuggy says:
1 September, 2015 at 8:21 pm
“Stu, you said you were getting flak “not because I was opposing a policy they believed in, but because I was supporting it in a tone they objected to.”
But it was a tone you yourself objected to just over a year ago:
“… Mr Darling also accused the entire SNP of promoting “blood-and-soil nationalism” – an extremely offensive term normally used in reference to Nazi Germany, where it translated as “Blut und Boden”.” (from “What Alistair Darling Said”, posted on June 05, 2014)
I don’t know what provoked you into the use of the phrase but your opinion of Gaelic either way surely didn’t merit that?”
I remember reading about Hunter S Thompson and about how he had been a bit of a cliched 50s/60s Southern boy who didn’t like black people that much (yes I am aware we shouldn’t rely on cliches but it was the way the story was told). He saw some black people speaking about their plight and he totally changed his opinion. He was a strong enough individual to act against all he had presumed to be true. He questioned the established order and went on doing that to great affect. Try and question what you have been brought up to believe about Gaelic. Try learning a different language. Don’t just placidly accept the established order that the British establishment has been so carefully developing for so long. They are not necessarily right.
The rev never did answer if it was just Gaelic or Scots and heavy accents that were a barrier to communication etc. Says a lot to me.
Just who is this shadowy Gaelic lobby then Rev???
http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13207315.Insular__parochial_and_narrowly_nationalist__Scotland_s_anti_Gaelic_bigots/?ref=fbshr
“Try learning a different language.”
That’s an assumption he’s a monoglot.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell 1:14 pm
It might well be the case that most of the anger has resulted from wrongly conflating one term with another.
My own objection is rooted in conflating the usage of the same term by different individuals:
This:
“… Mr Darling also accused the entire SNP of promoting “blood-and-soil nationalism” – an extremely offensive term normally used in reference to Nazi Germany, where it translated as “Blut und Boden”.
with this:
“Non-primary native languages are a tool whose main utility in practice is at best the exclusion of outsiders, and at worst an expression of dodgy blood-and-soil ethnic nationalism.”
Because, having read both of these comments, I really can’t see any difference in attitude between the two individuals.
It is funny now I am beginning to notice the total inconsistencies. The rev said something like (I am paraphrasing) @it doesn’t matter how it happened andnwhether it was bad English won. Now everyone has English just get on with your life (didn’t realise we should all aspire to be monolingual).
Well I would direct the same argument back at the rev. Just accept your fate England won. It doesn’t matter how. They politically subsumed Scotland and the other countries of the UK. We lost the referendum. Just accept your fate.
You see how that works? The only difference is most Scots support Gaelic and most Scots don’t support independence. Plenty of unionists will tell you that independence is pointless. That it is blood and soil nationalism and a parochial and selfish antagonistic irritation.
Do I have to spell out the parallels any more folks? Perhaps if you were bilingual you would be able to see it more easily. Perhaps your brains just don’t have the wiring;)
Yes, getting tiresome..
My daughter has just completed her gaelic primary education, my son just completed full P1 to S5 Curriculum for Excellence..
2 Well educated children..thanks to SCOT GOV.
REV IS RIGHT, HIS OPINIONS ARE A SET-UP USED TO EXPOSE HYPOCRACY.
Don Mac’ move on, keep protecting your own language, point made, now protect the Rev’s right to his opinion..or are you unable to move on.
These arguments will resurface again and again in a population of 5 million, keep powders dry for real enemies of our identity.
P.P.S.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_egoism
However, who is the arbiter of morality/best interests?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Baier
Also, beware of Utility Monsters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster
“most Scots support Gaelic”
In what sense, and in what poll?
Doh, there’s me forgetting the “The Selfish Gene” and “The Extended Phenotype”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Extended_Phenotype
“Perhaps if you were bilingual you would be able to see it more easily. Perhaps your brains just don’t have the wiring;)”
An absolutely cretinous couple of statements.
The more likely case is that perhaps you’ve become obsessed and hysterical. I’d have hated to have been around you on the 18th September 2014. I bet you were frothing at the mouth and crying foul all over the place. You probably didn’t sleep for weeks.
“this is my last word”
One more comment.
“this is definitely my last comment”
Another comment. Blah blah blah. I’m leaving you to froth in your own indignant stupor.
Cheerio, Buster.
Stu.
Why are you allowing the idiot Chris Baxter free rein to publish his absurd posts while not doing so for me and others who are heavily critical of him. He is a wanker.
Chris Baxter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity
Chris Baxter says:
2 September, 2015 at 2:58 pm
“most Scots support Gaelic”
In what sense, and in what poll?
———–
http://www.k-international.com/blog/majority-support-for-gaelic-in-scotland/
Shuggy says
“So essentially, you’re worried you might be thought of as some kind of ignorant, backward, ill-educated savage – by the opposition?
Ok.”
Oh…oh…oh…sniff…sob…blows nose noisily
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw8lTYXg_V8
I have just a smattering of Gaelic: enough to say hello or good-night, for example.
My grandmothers was fluently bilingual. My mother spoke no English until about 5, then gradually lost most of her Gaelic through the years. So I have a bit of cultural fondness for the language.
I have no problem keeping cultural traditions alive, even if they are largely pointless in this day and age. One could include archery or horseback riding or most Olympic sports, for example.
The funding for Gaelic, including road signs seems trivial in the grand scheme of things, and I expect most tourists to Scotland would be delighted by Gaelic road signs. They’d probably spend money on Gaelic T-shirts and embroidered caps etc, which could make Gaelic more of a money generator than an expense.
The Rev wrote, “They were intrinsically linked, in a way that a lot of people were depressingly too stupid to notice.”
And, “so many people here evidently can’t read fucking English.”
Well, now you know how the Rev feels about you.
It is said that if one has a knowledge of the gaelic language, then while travelling in the highlands and islands the topography is in colour rather than in black and white since the place names have real meaning.
Have you lived down in Bath too long and want to get rid of Doric, lallands etc too ? Returning here after 30 years in Kent I am aware the richness of this Nation is only a little to do with oil reserves, rather the emotional reserves of the denizens.
@Will Podmore says:
You’re fooling nobody Rev!
Will Podmore
Glad you are here Will. I hope my posts over the last couple of days, have given you an indication as to just how out-dated your political philosophy is. Care to tell me again what sustainability is all about?
We fund this website for the excellent analysis that it provides 99.9% of the time. Opinions though are like posteriors in that everyone has them.
Perhaps a sub-editor might be required, since the opening paragraphs of this article are pure opinion rather than fact.
This is probably the most commented article since the indyref!
Central message: leave off Gaelic, lay into horrible BritNats instead.
Awa and Bile yer heid WiLl Podmore.
The Yes movement to its credit was and is very tolerant and inclusive. The same cant be said for yer Brit Nat pals or the Naw gangsters.
Tha lan cach or words to that effect you are.
Janet says
“Perhaps a sub-editor might be required, since the opening paragraphs of this article are pure opinion rather than fact.”
How dare the owner of this site offer an opinion,
just who does he think he is?
“This is probably the most commented article since the indyref!”
Which just proves how “precious” some people can be eh?
There is an excellent piece on this subject by Malcolm Combe:
https://storify.com/MalcolmCombe/gaelic-on-twitter
Chris Baxter says:
At which point have I been referring to learning history, culture etc?
I don’t speak Gaelic. I’m from the east coast. Are you suggesting that I don’t know the history, culture, or literature of Scotland unless I know Gaelic?
You seem very angry! Why does the mention of Gaelic make people angry?
I wasn’t suggesting any such thing what I was saying is that learning a language is not just learning a whole load of words when you learn a language you also learn a lot about the history, culture, literature of that language.
For example in one of my French class we read books by Henri Queffélec and learned all about island life in Brittany. I can’t remember which books we read in Spanish but I’m pretty sure they included stories about the Spanish civil war and it definitely was not a Spanish translation of Hemingway all the books would be by Spanish writers.
I see as many good reason for learning Gaelic as for learning Spanish. Learning a modern language to communicate when computer software does it better is a bit like learning analog photography in the digital age.
The more sophisticated these computer programmes become the less chance there will be of things being lost in translation. I vaguely remember that it was suggested that something the Pope said during the Indy Ref was ‘lost in translation’
I don’t watch BBC Alba but I have seen a serious of programmes on You Tube called ‘Diomhair’ I though they were very good.
“Why are you allowing the idiot Chris Baxter free rein to publish his absurd posts while not doing so for me and others who are heavily critical of him. He is a wanker.”
Because you’re being abusive and aggressive (see above) and challenged him to a fistfight. This isn’t a fucking playground.
Dom Mac(cant be fucked) says
“Your hyperbolic response shows nothing more than a cultural cringe when it comes to Gaelic.”
No it shows a total indifference.
voting NO showed a cultural cringe!
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21
“The Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic R1b people had reached in what is now Germany by 2500 BCE. This first wave of R1b presumably carried R1b-L21 lineages in great number … [that’s us, most of the population of the British Isles]. The early split of L21 from the main Proto-Celtic branch around Germany would explain why the Q-Celtic languages (Goidelic and Hispano-Celtic) [Gaelic and Irish] diverged so much from the P-Celtic branch (La Tène, Gaulish, Brythonic), [Welsh and Pictish]”
The genetic evidence may have profound implications. The first wave of conquering bronze using horse mounted Indo-Europeans R1b-L21 probably spoke Gaelic. It follows that Gaelic was introduced into much of Western Europe and most of the British Isles about 2000BC
A second wave of Celts moved west, but not into Britsh Isles in high numbers, their Welsh language and iron technology did spread across the isles replacing Gaelic in England, Wales and parts of Scotland.
Implication … Gaelic did not come to Scotland from Ireland. It had already been here for several 1000 years! Welsh style Celtic only got as far as the Highlands and didn’t cross to the west.
I think enough has been said on this topic.
Time to move on.
@galamcennalath
One of the problems with history is that the archeologists don’t study language particularly, and vice versa. And yet language spreads (and changes) at the same time, before in fact, as artifacts.
I remember watching Huw Edwards (Histry of Wales) with archeologists “startling discoveries” e.g. the Welsh settlers being very maritime, thinking to myself, well, duh, I already know that from reading about P and Q Celtic.
Makes you think, maybe that’s the origin of the expression “mind your Ps and Qs”!
Rather than sit on the fence I’ll share my view on the Gaelic language, I had none until this article appeared on Wings.
I now find myself in support of greater promotion of Gaelic simply because of the obvious support and passion of the posters objecting to the Revs article.
So what if it is a minority, the majority aren’t always right!
The thing is though I don’t believe that those objecting most vociferously really saw the point of the whole article.
Be calm, be rational. As far as I see he stated clearly that he has no interest in the Gallic language but then went on to deride those that accuse the current Scottish government of wasting money on it.
Seems to me an unbiased opinion, though obviously objectionable to both Gaelic speakers and non-Gaelic speakers for reasons that they themselves argued passionately.
I like that, the passion. Stirring the porridge once in a while keeps it from sticking to the sides of the pot.
The Rev did produce a version of the WBB in Gaelic which I thought was a great idea, as far as I know it was only produced in English and Gaelic.
Tells me something.
Hatred of Gaelic and ‘the Gaelic Lobby’ is a strange attitude to harbour in any Scottish nationalist’s mind.
Both our native languages: Gaelic and Scots (Doric, Lallans, Shetlandic etc.) should be not just be saved but promoted by our government. They are part of our long and tortured history.
Having heard translations of Sorley Maclean’s beautiful poetry, I would have liked to have learned it in its original form. But at the time it was impossible in a lowland school. Now it’s too late for me personally, but not for our children.
This debate is as pointless as saying that as few Scots understand Burns’ work in its original form or ‘Sunset Song’ in the Mearns’ dialect it is worthless.
People who attack the Gaeltacht and its culture are at heart imperialists and should examine their inherent’cringe’ in face of Scotland’s oldest living language.
Divide and conquer indeed…. just as we hit 53% FOR YES!
Thepnr
“Tells me something.”
Im getting bad vibes from that comment,
tell me your not suggesting something here Alex?
Lochside says
“Hatred of Gaelic and ‘the Gaelic Lobby’ is a strange attitude to harbour in any Scottish nationalist’s mind.”
What?
did I miss something?
I don’t speak Gaelic – how would one say (in Gaelic obviously), “I can talk to my grandparents in our language”?
The Rev has every right to write what he wishes on,
“his” blog. Every single one of his detractors
on here can do the same, (I don’t think they would
have very much to say, mind you). The Rev is also
just a person, a person who has just as much right
as you or me to have his own thoughts, but I must
say, his statements are much more based on facts
than most on here and on other sites.
You have my sympathy Rev. The, “slings and arrows”
of the people you are trying to help are the most
hurtful.
Keep up the good work.
@galamcennalath
Not only do archaeologists and linguists not understand each other’s fields, geneticists probably understand neither.
What I think happened is that someone plotted genetic markers across Europe and found one that clustered around the recently Celtic-speaking areas, i.e. Ireland and Western Britain, and so christened it a ‘Celtic’ gene marker.
However it may be quite unrelated to the spread of the Celtic languages, and probably simply reflects a much earlier population movement. Since Britain and Ireland were literally “the end of the world” in prehistoric times, wave after wave of immigrants inevitably piled up here (unless you allow for a totally genocidal invader at one or more points). Interestingly, that’s exactly the scenario envisaged by the early Irish legends, which depict a series of invasions, the very last of which were the Gaels. Given that most peoples like to claim that they’ve occupied their territories since the Creation, any story of the dominant people being relative late-comers might well contain a grain of truth.
In any case the dates you give are far too early for any Indo-European language to have reached Western Europe. Nor AFAIK is there any evidence of Q-Celtic in Britain, prior to the ‘Dark Ages’ Irish settlements. The only other place where there are known to be Q-Celts is Iberia, which oddly enough is exactly where the Irish believed their founding fathers came from.
The Irish tell of reaching an accommodation with the existing occupants, although in time they and their language became dominant and absorbed all earlier tongues, although the culture was no doubt an amalgam. I’m sure something very similar happened many centuries later once an accord was reached between Picts and Scots, an accord which formed the nucleus around which the Scottish people and state would form.
@john king
“Tells me something” simply means that the Rev thought enough of the Gaelic speakers in Scotland to go to the effort of printing a WBB purely for them.
This may have been at the prompting of others but the point is, his most important work (in my view) included those whose first language is Gaelic.
So, though in this article he states that Gaelic for him personally is unimportant he still went to the trouble of providing a WBB in a language other than English for the 1% of Scots for whom it is their first language.
I have no idea why the Rev gave a personal opinion at the start of this article, without it there would have been few comments.
Planned? I think not, but unintended consequences and all that, as i posted last night. A higher profile for Gaelic, greater knowledge for readers and that can’t be a bad thing.
@ Paula Rose
The phrase you asked for would I think be :
‘S urrainn dhomh còmhradh a dhèanamh ri mo shinnsearan troimh ar càrnain fhéin.
A good resource is :
http://faclair.com/
Can any of the gaelic speakers tell me how to spell,
Haemorrhoid in gaelic.
Thank you K.A.Mylchreest xx
This is an enormous own goal for the Rev. I’ve read a lot of outrageous things in the unionist media that didn’t make me flinch. Usually, because as well as being expected, they often had some measure of research behind them. But I can’t remember when I last shook my head in disbelief and exclaimed out loud “What the f…”
I read Wings because it’s always seemed well researched and provides valuable information to use in persuading others of the merits of independence. But this article reminded me of previous occasions where I’ve read an author’s initial premise and thought it sounded reasonable, only to find further on that they’ve strayed into territory where it’s obvious they don’t have a clue and are just going with blind bias. That’s bad enough, but it makes you doubt everything else that they may have written about, whether it’s plain gospel truth or not.
It’s certainly going to make me take everything else that Stu writes with a pinch of salt and maybe that’s a good thing. But now, it’s more difficult to say to a unionist “You’re wrong and if you take a look at Wings it’ll put you right”. Can I really believe the seemingly well researched and reasonable second half of this article?
I really doubted whether it was the same Stu writing this. You would think he’d be way beyond the tactics of divide and rule. And the Rev’s replies to criticism were of the same calibre as some of Wings’ dodgiest posters. Showing this level of contempt for reasonable people is just weird. It may be Stu’s website to do with as he pleases, but remember a lot of reluctant BBC licence payers also made big and willing donations to Wings.
It’s your website Stu, but you’ve brought Wings and the cause of independence into disrepute.
“Let’s start off by losing some more friends. This site has no time for the Gaelic lobby. The obsolete language spoken by just 0.9% of Scotland’s population might be part of the nation’s “cultural heritage”, but so were burning witches and replacing Highlanders with sheep and we don’t do those any more either”
Both of these events were carried out by English speaking rulers against Gaelic speaking communities.
it’s really shocking….
@ Paula R.
‘Se do bheatha! (You’re welcome!)
Which literally means, “It’s your life” 🙂
BTW you’re (hopefully) genuine interest is appreciated. Mostly translation requests are just wind-ups, along the lines of “What’s the Gaelic for ‘helicopter'” etc. What’s the English for ‘spaghetti’?
Oidhche mhath leat! (Goodnight)
Sorry folks, I typed ‘càrnain’ for ‘cànain’. Putting my translation into Google Translate (always good fun) I got back :
“Compartments make globalization gossip king my … self accumulations.”
Honestly you couldn’t make this up! It looks like machine translation hasn’t made much progress from the days of, “The vodka is tempting but the meat’s gone off”. Hey ho!
@ K.A.Mylchreest – much appreciated, I chose to live in Scotland, the people have welcomed me and made sure that I know this is my home. I understand Scots but have very little understanding of Gaelic.
I have been enthused by this thread to learn more, I was born in London I have ancestors not that far back from the Highlands – a couple of generations, I look forward to at least understanding their landscape xx
@ K.A. Mylcheest – total genuine – if you do twitter i’m here – @paulahoneyrose otherwise find Off-topic where I’m usually doing the washing up.
This has to be one of the most short-sighted, uninformed articles I have ever read from somebody who is supposed to be a pro-independence, anti-imperial progressive.
It just highlights how embedded old colonial, Stockholm-syndrome viewpoints are even among some people who want to create a new Alba.
Re-education never stops – especially on how to instill a renewed confidence in our own culture – and will be a continual work in a future independent Scotland.
Co às a tha thu? In Gaelic the question translates as ‘who do you come from?’ and not ‘where do you come from?’ Gaelic speaking culture gives a lot of importance to genealogies, and many people can still recite their family history going back a long way. This is in line with many, many cultures around the world and is NOT exclusionary.
I am an incomer to a Gaelic speaking community, and when I am asked, ‘co às a tha thu?’ people are genuinely interested to know, even in great detail. This is not exclusionary, it is inclusive. Diversity and equality come through appreciating cultural and linguistic difference, not by classifying smaller or less prominent languages as obsolete, or implying that they exclude others by the fact of their existence.
As for ‘the Gaelic lobby’, every single English-medium classroom, English road sign, meeting, play, you name it, is in fact actively promoting English. Everything based on language is in some way promoting that language, and English is not neutral in that regard.
In this context, Gaelic-medium anything is not some outlandish imposition, it’s a basic right for many people, and a way for many others, including myself, of reconnecting to something they were told had been lost.
Iain More wrote, “Awa and Bile yer heid WiLl Podmore.
The Yes movement to its credit was and is very tolerant and inclusive.”
So, telling someone to boil their head is an expression of your tolerance? Or are you being ironic? Or postmodern?
This whole discussion about Gaelic has shown a rather considerable and revealing amount of intolerance and exclusivism.
@supporter
“Why are you allowing the idiot Chris Baxter free rein to publish his absurd posts while not doing so for me and others who are heavily critical of him. He is a wanker.”
You’ve not refuted with any substance the individual points I’ve made.
And yes, I am. As are you. What is your point?
You add nothing to this dialogue.
@Ruby
“You seem very angry! Why does the mention of Gaelic make people angry?”
You’ve misinferred, drastically. It’s the Gaelic mob bleating hysterically that seem angry.
The rest of your post is a rambling nonsense; especially this:
“Learning a modern language to communicate when computer software does it better is a bit like learning analog photography in the digital age.
The more sophisticated these computer programmes become the less chance there will be of things being lost in translation”
You might understand what point you’re trying to make, but I don’t.
@Onwards
“http://www.k-international.com/blog/majority-support-for-gaelic-in-scotland/”
Is that it?
“While the majority of respondents wanted to see Gaelic spoken more frequently, they didn’t necessarily want to be the ones speaking it.”
And the question “are you willing for your taxes to fund those opportunities for others to learn?” isn’t used, either.
This is another woolly survey that could be a homeopathic survey, for all its substance.
“It just highlights how embedded old colonial, Stockholm-syndrome viewpoints are even among some people who want to create a new Alba.”
I’ve never wanted to create a new “Alba” in my fucking life.
Jesus, are you people STILL bleating on about this? Nothing else catch your eyes in the news today at all?
The Syrian refugees- has anyone thought to interview these lost souls who have had their beloved homeland destroyed by greed for money or greed for power?
Is there an EEC fund to care for the orphans, provide baby foods, medication, nappies, are there any Doctor’s, Nurses, Teachers, Truck Drivers, etc, that we could employ
tomorrow?
Do some of them have family or friends that they could live
with in any EEC country?
In common terms, would you be able to watch a child try to swim to safety in rough seas and walk away unaffected if they drown before you?
Well you have put a UK government in that can do it with nothing more than a few sound bites to fool you into thinking that they give a damn.
UK Warmongers like Blair and Cameron have destroyed these lives and now they will not face up to the consequences!
The UN, NATO and the EEU have at best been pathetic in supporting these people.
How can we suggest that the UK are Christian nation when we this kind of heartless government?
I haven’t heard anything, from any religion, that teaches you to act inhumanly to those around you, who are in need
Stu – although I totally disagree in the strongest terms with your opinion that Gaelic is a language best left to die, I do commend you for voicing that opinion with conviction and in knowledge that it might, at least temporarily, inalienate those supporting and funding you. It is a mindset which makes your voice an interesting and refreshing contribution to Scottish politics.
you’re article is quite interesting and I would agree that there is no more spent on Gaelic medium education than on English medium. If I’m correct it was more about the inaccuracy of unionist tabloid reporting than an insult to a language that I have grown up with and love.
I would like to say this to the anti-Gaelic lobbby though.
Other multi-lingual countries have bi and sometimes tri-lingual road sings. Belgium for example has bi and tri lingual singnage as their languages are French, Vlaamms and German (they have a very small enclave of German speakers but cater for them too). And lots of countries throughout europe have English on their roadsigns for the monolinguals out there. The fact that it takes some people a whole second longer to read it says more about their eyesight, driving and directional skills than the fact the sign is in 2 languages. Its clearly marked in different colours so perhaps a wee eye test and a chat with your Doctor about whether or not you should still be driving would be in order.
For goodness sake, its a language. Whether you think its alive or ‘useful’ or not. I tend to think that the haters automatically don’t like it because its a natural reaction to something that they don’t understand. Well its a shame really as they are missing out on a whole lot. The way the language works does have lot to do with the way geals tell stories and jokes and interact and as we are part of the Scottish population then it automatically becomes part of our nations herritage and culture as well as English.
Learning any language as a 2nd language doesn’t have to be useful at all.It just has to be something you enjoy and if you don’t enjoy it then stop.
I always said we’d be better learning Urdu and Polish in order that we can talk with our neighbours
@ DelBoy
And did you? (Learn Urdu and/or Polish)
Unless you plan to explore the Amazon or the Jungles of New Guinea, then all the foreigners you’re likely to have to deal with, whether at home or abroad, will speak English and most likely insist on speaking English with you. So if you want to take the trouble to learn other languages they might as well be ones that interest you or relate to things that interest you.
Many people are very interested in their country, its history, landscape etc. and in their own ancestry, and this naturally leads in many cases to an interest in the languages closest to home.
In other words you can stand the ‘functional’ argument on its head. “Everyone speaks English” so if you’re going to learn a language, you might as well learn Gaelic or Welsh or whatever takes your fancy as anything else.
“Can I really believe the seemingly well researched and reasonable second half of this article?”
Are you mental? How could my personal view of Gaelic affect the content of links to evidence from external sources?
“I’ve paid taxes for decades now and if I want services and status in my language for myself and my kids then why the France should I not get it?”
Nobody said you shouldn’t. The article said the exact opposite of that. Please learn to read.
“Yeah well, lets take all the money away from English schooling, pre schooling, books in libraries etc. If English is your first language why should you need any support or money to speak it.”
How did we manage to pass language down for the thousands of years before schools existed?
“Gary45% – Can any of the gaelic speakers tell me how to spell,
Haemorrhoid in gaelic.”
Is that a joke or are you just showing the usual monoglot English speaker ignorance?
Why don’t you start by telling us how to spell Haemorrhoid in English? You might struggle since it is Latin ya Fanny.
“I’ve never wanted to create a new “Alba” in my fucking life.”
I thought you were pro-independence, which if achieved would most certainly be a new “Alba”, a new “Scotland”, a new “Écosse”, “Schottland”, “Escocia”, “?????????”, “???”… etc etc!
For ????? read “Shotlandiya”, “S?gélán”, “Yr Alban”
Russian and Chinese characters not accepted… plus I threw in Welsh for good measure!
The Rev, when criticised, now asks nicely, “Are you mental?”
How tolerant, how civilised!
“How could my personal view of Gaelic affect the content of links to evidence from external sources?”
Your personal view of Gaelic has SERIOUSLY undermined your credibility and, for that matter, future support.
I never have and I never will understand the anti-Gaelic thing in Scotland, and I’m no language activist.
I was on a ship many years ago with Gaelic speakers and it would’ve been easy to feel excluded and resentful. I managed not to, due to the simple fact that I wasn’t from the Western Isles and therefore I couldn’t possibly understand what was being said.
“Your personal view of Gaelic has SERIOUSLY undermined your credibility and, for that matter, future support.”
Among arseholes, certainly. But then, I never wanted support from arseholes. Any arseholes still reading, can you fuck off, please? Thanks.
Full of sound and fury …
Its worth remembering that for most Scots English is not their native tongue
handclapping writes,
“for most Scots English is not their native tongue”
I don’t speak out of any hostility to Gaelic, but in that statement either “English” is a typo for “Gaelic” or you don’t know what “native tongue” means.
Rev writes, “Among arseholes, certainly. But then, I never wanted support from arseholes. Any arseholes still reading, can you fuck off, please?”
Nicer and nicer … is he losing it or what?
“Nicer and nicer … is he losing it or what?”
I wouldn’t advise pushing your luck.
Stu,
I will not be funding any more Wings Over Scotland whilst you publicly oppose Gaelic. I just wanted to record that. All our differences and diversity are what makes the world a great place. F*ck having a zombie-fied environmentally-impoverished consumerism-based global monoculture based on whatever mainstream rubbish is force-fed to us by the ultra-centralised financial, media, political and military powers. Variety is the spice of life and gaelic adds a bit more flavour.
Regards
Tom
Stu,
I don’t want to seem overly critical because I value your work. I just want to add a voice of opposition to your view on Gaelic. That’s all. Each to their own.
Cheers
Tom
This is an emotive subject but I have to say I agree that learning Gaelic as an adult is not a particularly useful skill. Good on the people who speak it – they’re far cleverer than I am – but honestly I’d rather the whole world spoke Esperanto or something.
Languages are HARD. I can’t even manage one second language. I’ve tried three times – with German, Japanese, and French, with years of study each time. I’ve never managed to get to the point where I would feel capable of having even a simple conversation with a native.
We’re supposed to be part of Europe but my freedom to work in another European country is severely curtailed because I can’t speak German or Polish or Italian. I don’t see the point in deliberately creating yet another language barrier.
National borders are less important all the time – look at the news! – but I’m effectively trapped in Anglophone countries because I can’t learn a second language.
If the whole world spoke a common language life might be more boring but it would be a lot easier and there might be fewer misunderstandings.
“I will not be funding any more Wings Over Scotland whilst you publicly oppose Gaelic.”
Fine. I dislike the idea that people feel they have the right to control my opinions with money.
Some thoughts on recent census figures on numbers of Gaelic speakers …
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2015/09/battlestar-gadelica.html
As an American I speak form of English that is distinctly American. Scots speak a form of English that is distinctly Scottish
called Scots. In America we suppressed our native Americans by conquest and made them abandon their native languages to speak English. That’s what the English did in Scotland too. Now there is a Renaissance in both our countries for the native people to regain their native language and culture. All nations have their own national native language. A nation should have. Scotland is a Celtic nation with Gaelic as it’s national language until subjugated by the English. SUBJUGATED, conquered and ruled! 55% of you have shown that you don’t mind being a dog on a leash rather than be an independent nation. They through you a bone once in a while and you bark and chase your tail! Those are the ones who have little or no national pride and choose to remain under the thumb of England. Pox on you! Your history and country is filled with bones of people who fought and died through the centuries to make Scotland free and they will have died in vain unless you become an independent nation with your own distinct language and culture as should be. Pride is a free nation!
Your arguments against learning/teaching Gaelic could equally be applied to art or music. But of course they wouldn’t. That would be stupid.
“Your arguments against learning/teaching Gaelic could equally be applied to art or music.”
Well, no they couldn’t. That’s a terrible analogy. The purpose of language is communication. Nobody learning Gaelic needs it for that purpose, because they already have a perfectly functional means of communication with everyone around them.
You hit the nail on the head there; ‘Nobody learning Gaelic needs it for that purpose (communication)’. So Gaelic learners are learning it for something else then.; Learning for learning’s sake for example, or to better understand music and poetry. Very similar to the reasons one learns to play an instrument or to paint I quite liked your article but you are wrong that time spent learning Gaelic is wasted time. Peace.
Yin o ra things A like ra maist on this site is the poll ye’s did on ra hypothetical situation whaur Scotland wis awready independent an ye’s askit gif fowk wad vote fur union an maist o thaim chuise ‘naw’ tae union. A fair feck o fowk is juist fur re status quo. A’m shuir ra same hing is true fur ra language: ye wadna say ony o thae things gif ra Gaelic (an ra Scots) haednae been lost wi the tawse.
“replacing Highlanders with sheep” isnae cultur. It’s exactly ra fowk that replacin Heilanders wi sheep that wis garrin fowk spikk the Inglish.
An language haes niver been jusit aboot communicatin an niver will be. Nae language is neutral; it hings on ra cultur.
It’s pretty ironic that a man who plays computer games for a living has the brass neck to call spending time learning another language ‘pointless’ and advise people to spend their time on something more worthwhile.
Briggsy! Welcome to last September! Glad you could join us!
You clearly haven’t got a clue about linguistics, sociology or people rights for that matter.
But you’re still very funny so I’m still not annoyed 😀