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We don’t not need no education

Posted on September 02, 2015 by

Kezia Dugdale in the Scottish Parliament yesterday:

The daughter of two teachers, there.

The line wasn’t a Freudian slip like Dugdale’s recent one about Scottish Labour not being “afraid to shy away from debate”. This time those WERE the words she meant to say, because she was demanding that every child should have an education that was not merely satisfactory but excellent.

That’s a fine sentiment, but it unavoidably means the word “satisfactory” has just literally been redefined to mean “unsatisfactory”, which probably isn’t going to help children already struggling with their English.

In her cavalier disregard for language Dugdale was echoing former Tory education minister Michael Gove when he said in 2013 that he wanted all schools to be “above average”, something which is of course mathematically and logically impossible.

If we want our kids to be smarter, it’s time for our politicians to stop setting them such bad examples. Kezia Dugdale’s dad should probably put her in detention for a bit.

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    1. 02 09 15 10:43

      We don’t not need no education | Speymouth

    359 to “We don’t not need no education”

    1. eric russell says:

      i can just picture her poor father and mother, shaking their heads and wondering if she was maybe swapped in the hospital.

    2. Alastair Seago says:

      The quality of the leadership of the “Scottish” Labour Party diminishes daily.

    3. Sinky says:

      Just phoned in to hear Labour love in at Call Kaye where Scott Arthur, Keir Bloomer and Ian Gray conducting a sustained attack on the SNP education policies.

    4. Donald Gillies says:

      Ah….another brick in the wall!

    5. Anagach says:

      Was Kez not head girl ?

    6. Donald MacKenzie says:

      I think I’m correct in saying that she, like the FM, doesn’t want a testing system that leads to meaningless rating tables of schools. But what Ms Dugdale is betraying here is an adherence to the gradings as used by the arms-length inspection services; e.g. Care Inspectorate, where we have the gradings of Excellent; Very Good; Good; Satisfactory; Adequate and Unsatisfactory.

      So is she’s thinking that way and using that language, which she clearly is, then she is you have top be concerned that she will be unable to avoid thinking in terms of ‘lists’ of better, good, bad.

    7. Colin Duff says:

      I’m reminded of Ivor Cutler (a former schoolteacher himself) and his immortal line “There’s nothing quite like a Scotch education. One is left with an irreparable debt.”

    8. John Walsh says:

      I would send her to the naughty step but GCC is knocking them down and Kez can’t seem to remember the funds being deprived to Scottish education because of Slab failed PFI agreements.

    9. fudgefase says:

      Ah, average. I was at a recent graduation where there were 25 2:1’s, 3 2:2’s and 2 Firsts. Now, ‘scuse my ignorance, but isn’t a 2:1 supposed to be ‘above’ average? It strikes me that that particular university has to rethink their gradings.

    10. Colin Church says:

      NHS doing well so let’s move onto education with Labour before the next winter kicks in.

      See the BBC editorial agenda has actually got worse with Labour’s Ian Gray sitting on the call Kaye phone in for an hour with free reign for SNP BAD / not right priorities, what’s the point, blah, blah.

      Arrogant buffoon Garry R channelling Naughtie levels of disdain in interview with FM. It is going to be a long and hard run in to May.

      Carp, carp, carp. Worry, worry, worry. Chip, chip, chip away.

      Project Fear morphs into Project Fret.

    11. mike cassidy says:

      Was Kez not head girl?

      More like dropped on her head.

    12. gillie says:

      “An average pupil in prosperous Elgin, I was suddenly near top of the class in my new secondary in Dundee.” – Kezia Dugdale

      The way to bridge the attainment gap in your children’s education is to do what the Dugdales did and move to Dundee.

    13. Muscleguy says:

      The statement of course needed a ‘merely’ or a ‘simply’ or maybe an ‘only’ in front of satisfactory.

      SLAB, unable to form sentences properly even when they get to write them down in advance.

    14. Melo says:

      A Hothersallesque display of semantic finger-wagging isn’t what I’ve come to expect from Wings.

      Boo! Hiss!

    15. Dougie Bee says:

      Is that Gray sitting behind Kezia?..the look on his face when she says it is priceless

      You got to remember Kez..engage brain before opening mouth..her da must bae fair prood o her

    16. Brian Powell says:

      In a speech it should have been ‘merely satisfactory’ or ‘simply satisfactory’ to create the emphasis intended.

    17. robertknight says:

      Stopped listening to BBC Radio North Britain’s “Call the SNP ‘Bad’ with Kaye Adams” some time ago.

      Perhaps “satisfactory” has now become merely an aspiration for those associated with Labour. The 7,500 who voted for former Deputy Dug can only dream of a satisfactory performance at FMQs. The reality usually falls some way short…

    18. Every time Kez opens her mouth Scotland gets dumber.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Prp615mmDk

    19. annie says:

      @ Dougie Bee – No think that’s James Kelly and he always looks like that.

    20. Chitterinlicht says:

      I have a kid just started school.

      I am not worried about their education.

      I am more worried about they type of society they will enter as an adult in 12 years time and what kind of work will be about.

      I think the SNP do have a vision for a better society for the people living in Scotland and that is why they will get my 2 votes next year.

      labour have no chance of getting my vote as they are reduced to sniping from the sides and are devoid of ambition or vision and hamstrung by unionist masters.

    21. Liz Wallace says:

      Well done Rev! Does Kez ever open her mouth and not put her foot in it!?!

    22. heraldnomore says:

      Na, Dougie, that’s the one and only James Kelly, so excited he nearly discovered a second note on the scales.

    23. Fred says:

      Watched the Labour gang of four interviewed together last night, very much Corbyn against the three duds.

    24. heedtracker says:

      Another red tory bullshitter, shock:-(

    25. One_Scot says:

      ‘wanted all schools to be “above average”

      Man, that’s a belter. Probably even better that Brian Taylors divide by zero howler.

    26. Sounds like the Tokyo Kaye radio show is broadcasting to the citizens of Scotland the usual anti SNP anti Scotland pro Red Tory Pro Union misinformation and propaganda.

    27. Dr Jim says:

      If we all get 9 out of ten for our sums then we’ll all be average and that’ll definitely be unsatisfactory

      So we’ll then have to get 10 out of 10 to be excellent but then that’ll turn out to be average again and that’ll be…..

      And then……………

    28. Capella says:

      If Kezia’s translation from mediocre to excellent Head Girl occurred after moving from Elgin to Dundee, I think that demonstrates the terrible record of Labour in education in Dundee. Was Dundee not a Labour stronghold in the 90s?

      Would the YES city want to return to that?

    29. Tom Webster says:

      @ fudgefase – No a 2.1 does not amount to being measured as ‘above average’. Each piece of work is assessed on its own merits, measured in terms of coherence, accuracy, independence, persuasiveness, critical engagement and communicative skills and the like and given a grade of between 0 and 100. If one essay does well by these criteria it would get, say, 65 and the grade would not be increased on the grounds that it was in a batch of poor essays or reduced because it was in a batch of excellent essays.

    30. Training Day says:

      In excoriating (rightly) the BBC ‘SNP bad’ mantra we shouldn’t overlook the input of their chums at STV.

      Scotland Tonight last night devoted around ten continuous minutes of airtime to an SNP bad-athon, with contributions from Iain Gray, Liam McArthur and the reprehensible Alex Johnstone.

      Expect much, much more of the same from them, just as from their bedfellows at Pacific Quay.

    31. Auld Rock says:

      Morning All. Now correct me if I’m wrong but I seem to remember that the worst results, highest number of teacher vacancies, largest class sizes are nearly all in areas where SLAB control or have recently controlled the Council??? Also while deprivation plays a part we must start recogising the effects of DRINK or DRUGS sozzled parents on childrens learning at home.

      Auld Rock

    32. Phil Robertson says:

      Your comments simply illustrate that KD knows more about Scottish education than you do. For some time now, the “satisfactory” rating has been seen as “unsatisfactory” by the powers that be. The three above-average grades are good/very good/outstanding.

      However the real worry about education standards is the proposal to ditch schemes where we compare with other countries and to introduce an internal system which lacks objectively but has the huge attraction for the government in the opportunity to “massage the data” to ensure a favourable outcome.

    33. indigo says:

      The Scottish Gov can only do so much to address failings in education. Until we have SNP sweeping the board at the Council elections in 2017 we won’t have transformative change. Any failings in education to a large extent can probably be laid more at the door of Labour-run local authorities than the Scottish Governement.

    34. Of course pupils should be leaving school with a level of maths, English and writing skills that helps them secure good well paid employment.

      It seems that schools today have been turned into what my late secondary school headmaster was against, exam passing factories.

    35. Clarinda says:

      Gaffe supremo Iain Grey (remember he was a maths teacher) in 2009 when asked about the record of the Scottish Parliament stated that before it was one in five children living in poverty and “now it is one in three – that’s significant progress.”

    36. heedtracker says:

      She was educated in the gentle art of public speaking by one of UKOK’s greatest grammarians, James Tiberius Murphy, fundemundally the saviour of the union, currently backpacking round south America with Dougie Alexander.

      Dugdalese English from Torygraph bullshit artists yesterday

      “Despite last year’s referendum, that independence cannot be ruled out in the decades ahead; an SNP victory in next year’s Scottish Parliament elections could yet lead to an early second referendum. Independence would be a historic mistake for Scotland, one we trust the Scottish people would not make. Yet no matter how slim the chance of independence, ministers in London must ensure that there are proper plans for basing the UK’s nuclear submarines afterwards. Perhaps HMNB Clyde could remain UK territory much as the “treaty ports” did after Irish independence. But indentifying an English home for the Trident successor would be a prudent contingency too.”

      Fabulous liars, cannae spell identifying, shock. These are the great Torygraph editors/twits too. Maybe UKOK unionists aren’t just Nic Robinson BBC grade liars but can also invent language, as they toddle along to teamGB greatnessising.

    37. John says:

      In daughter’s year at Harris Acad. Not just any secondary, but the highest achieving state school in Dundee, with amongst the best exam results in the country. Afraid she’s havering.

    38. nathan says:

      The biggest impediment to an “excellent” education is poverty. No money for the food to cook in Home Economics Class, school trips, or the basketball club. Going home to a cold house where Mum or Dad has been sanctioned, or on zero hours so they may or may not be there. Labour quite happy to support the Tories Welfare Cuts and not a peep out of them about the £500 million to be spent on War. Banish inequality = better education & skills = more productive = pay taxes = banish inequality etc.

    39. Take Independence says:

      It’s official I now know why I’am thick it’s all because of my parents.

    40. Clarinda says:

      Auld Rock – 11.18

      Not just the effects that you mention but the deadening affects of indifference, lack of aspiration and poor role models that suffocate ambition in too many of our primary school children from deprived neighbourhoods.

      Our daughter, a recently qualified primary school teacher, working in one of the most deprived schools in Scotland, worries along with so many colleagues that it is almost pointless pouring money in at their particular end of the education process when it is the social and family background that is too often the barrier to learning potential. A bit coarse perhaps – but ‘taking horses to water’?

    41. Iain More says:

      What can the wicked SNP do? Since the Brit Nats consider the residents of Scotland too thick to be Independent then what is the point of education at all.

      Indeed what is the point of even learning Ingerish?

    42. Robert Peffers says:

      mike cassidy says: 2 September, 2015 at 10:05 am:

      “Was Kez not head girl?”

      More like head banger I suspect. I had to laugh at Ian Gray this morning. Labour are proposing to double the funding for education. Has the numptie not yet realise Westminster is cutting funding for Scotland?

      The new session of Holyrood had not even begun when the State Propaganda machine, (BBC Scotland), was chip! chip! chipping away at the Scottish Government at full blown volume. Mind you it is rather futile to chip away at a solid rock with a small, blunt penknife.

      Do not these people, from the PM right down to Scottish Labour and the entire state controlled media, realise that a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland are now deaf to their propaganda?

      No sane person resident in Scotland now believes a word they say or write.

    43. heedtracker says:

      Phil Robertson says:
      2 September, 2015 at 11:21 am
      Your comments simply illustrate that KD knows more about Scottish education than you do

      And you Phil just highlighterfied the problem with Dugdalese waffle. She’s the shiny new leader of the red tory party in Scotlandshire, so she is duty bound to express herself and her party’s stuff with clarity and with articulatorising for everyone out here, what lives in their region of Scotlandland.

      Is that clear Phil? I too graduated with hons from the James T Murphy College of Public Speakerising, like Kezia.

    44. Iain More says:

      Nothing can be done about education in my area as long as the dunderheided, inept and corrupt British Nationalist Coalition runs the Council.

      But hey what is the point according to the Brit Nats we are all thick anyway. Far too thick to be Independent.

      What a Better Together Legacy we have inherited. We aren’t fit to stand on our own two feet and we aren’t fit and just too fick even to find gainful employment.

      I am off to listen to Another Brick in the Wall.

    45. call me dave says:

      Just back from a lost weekend and a double trip to Oban and still trying to make inroads concerning the last two threads which I will give some attention to anon.

      I thought at first “FGS!” include me out but I’ll dip my toe in deeper.

      Now Kezia and Kelly in the same photo. and education as the topic, is a bonus and has many seams of potential mirth in it.
      Let the lampooning begin!

      OH! heard on radio 4 deep into the night, coming soon.

      Naughtie ! https://archive.is/hUf0O

    46. Sinky says:

      Dugdale is also an economic illiterate and needs to explain that the limited income tax powers being devolved next May means that her call to increase Tax Rate to 50% for those earning over £150,000 would also mean increasing the basic tax rate from 20% to 25% as Scottish government has no power to varying any single band of tax rate.

      Correct me if I am wrong

    47. desimond says:

      Scottish Labours new slogan:

      Satisfaction NOT Guaranteed

    48. Farnorthdavie says:

      average in Elgin, near top of class in Dundee

      These positions are all relative to those around you!

    49. DerekM says:

      i see the new labour is the same as the old labour,still trying to use the line its your fault you are in government routine.

      When will they get that we can see right through their westminster style of reprehensible politics and know full well who is to blame for the sorry state of affairs Scotland was left in and will act on this knowledge in 2016 and 2017 to remove the biggest bunch of crooks this country has ever had.

    50. Dr Jim says:

      There is of course a certain amount of the “Ah canny be bothered” factor to which almost no amount of schooling will ever be enough

      That’s due to years and years of Labour apathy and our young people knowing they had to leave Scotland to secure a job because their futures were always at risk from Westminster asset stripping causing depressed jobless parents and a blank home life with little expectation

      And that’s a different problem

      But one that would be better addressed in an Independent Scotland able to help our youngsters have some pride in their country, some choice,some responsibility, some future, and a big say

      Scotland is on the cusp of a great boom which is sod all to do with Westminster and our kids are ripe to benefit from it Independence can’t come quick enough before our assets are ripped out by Westminster all over again

    51. scotsbob says:

      1st September the First Minister is going to unveil the government’s programme

      2nd September the BBC have Ian Gray on the Kaye Adams show

      Am I being too cynical, maybe sceptical, to think this was a BBC plan to blunt any positive SNP press that would come out today.

    52. Effijy says:

      I called in to confront Ian Gray sitting on the call Kaye UK OK phone in.

      Gray and some numb skull agreed that more money should be spent on Education.

      If Gray Labour were In power we would get double everything?

      The issue I left with their researcher was that the economy crashed under Labour’s Watch, mainly because he Finacial World told the government how they wanted to be monitored.

      The recession has a big part to blame on Libores failings. In order to bail out the filthy rich bankers, our filthy rich politicians started the austerity measures.

      Labour, being incompetent, let in the Tories who ramped up austerity to new levels, fully backed by Red Tories.

      From there the next Tory government proposed further austerity measures, which the vast majority of Labour MPs
      voted for again.The shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls agreeing with everything that this involved in the Blue Tory Budget

      How sweet of Gray to suggest that we should spend more on Education while he and his Red Tory team have agreed to chopped Scotland’s budget to pieces.

      How strange they didn’t select my comments for broadcast?

    53. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Surely Kezia’a education remarks are an insult to the people of Dundee

    54. Batbite says:

      She’s obviously a monoglot. Lacks language and communication skills

      Eh? What? Too soon?

    55. Me Bungo Pony says:

      Don’t see a story here. “Excellent” is a fine aspiration and everyone can have an “excellent” education without the need to redefine “satisfactory”.

      There is a danger of turning Ms Dugdale into a martyr if this kind of cheap, sniggery, finger pointing becomes the norm on sites such as Wings which we rely on to highlight real issues.

    56. Jack Murphy says:

      ScottishLabour,on it’s Twitter Page posted this 22 hours ago:-
      “KD: No parent wants a satisfactory education for their child. It’s my mission to ensure they have the best possible start in life.”
      I’m puzzled. 🙁

    57. Lenny Hartley says:

      Didn’t Iain Gray complain in Parliament that the SNP had cut funding for those with learning difficulties to go to College. Brilliant use of public funds Mr Gray, at a time of massive Westminster
      Funding cuts!!!

    58. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “this kind of cheap, sniggery, finger pointing”

      You call it that, I call it “caring about fucking language”. I’m a writer. If words mean nothing, nor does my entire existence.

      This post wasn’t designed to produce amusement.

    59. orri says:

      Nope, it’s an admission that the cases of an unsatisfactory education are vanishingly slim. No redefinition at all just a slightly grudging acknowledgement that education in Scotland is actually meeting it’s targets.

    60. asklair says:

      I voted SNP because they are the only option for a better society. Saying that my last kid has just left secondary education, Scottish education is in a mess. I had to fight the local council for trying to introduce a compulsory school uniform policy which is not legal under Scots Law, the then Scottish Education Minister (SNP) would not get involved. Why was it so important to me, look at history, no European school promotes compulsory school uniform. I want a society where kids will question authority, and not be processed to become work drones as it is being done in my local authority.

    61. NN says:

      I don’t think things are going to end well in the long run if sanity doesn’t prevail in politics sooner rather than later:

      http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/panicked-super-rich-buying-boltholes-5044084

    62. galamcennalath says:

      Me Bungo Pony says:
      “… cheap, sniggery, finger pointing ….”

      Problem is, Labour in Scotland, that non-party fronted by a non-leader, aren’t allowed to get involved in “real issues” because they daren’t take or show any initiative because that might mean stepping outside the bounds set by their masters at HQ.

      Yet, the paradox is, they pretend to wield power and some Scots who don’t open their eyes think Labour in Scotland is indeed some form of Scottish Labour.

      I have no recollection of Dugdale making any serious point whatsoever! However she can’t be ignored because Labour still represent a threat to constitutional progress. All that’s left is to highlight her total ineptitude even if that means highlighting her poor language skills.

      On the one hand Scotland needs an effective opposition party, on the other hand an inept Labour helps the Indy cause!

    63. Dr Jim says:

      @ asklair

      Not having a go at you here just to say that the preferred option of school uniforms is to address the problems experienced by poorer families who couldn’t afford £100 Nike trainers or top of the range Bergen Jackets and the like

      The idea was to save parents from the “My pals have got better clothes than me” problem, and given that most students couldn’t care less what their school uniform looks like the desired result is achieved

      At least that was the plan

    64. call me dave says:

      Ipso-mori STV poll

      53% YES 44% NO and 3% Dinnae ken.

      I thought it would be a bit more 🙂

    65. ross says:

      NN,Sorry i dont have time to read the link youve posted but ill tell you this, its an absolute disgrace that people are starving in this country and at the other end of the spectrum the super rich are dishing out money for new buttholes. Ones enough in my opinion. Its just greed with that lot.

    66. ronnie anderson says:

      Stv news. Why oh why do Slab insist on printing posters for stage the backdrops, with Kezia Dugdales name on them, do the people attending these speeches not know who she is,does Kezia even know.

    67. heedtracker says:

      Scottish education is in a mess. I had to fight the local council for trying to introduce a compulsory school uniform policy which is not legal under Scots Law, the then Scottish Education Minister (SNP) would not get involved.

      Teachers I know sometimes say it’s not the kids, it’s the parents.

    68. Muscleguy says:

      @sinky

      That was SLAB’s proposed system, yes. My understanding is that the version in the Scotland Act 2015 allows for individual band varying but does not allow for new bands or the abolition of bands. So we cannot reintroduce the 10p band but we can vary them individually. SLAB did not, fortunately, get the final say on this matter.

      They are still a trap of course. When Barnett gets cut the unionists will simply cry ‘well increase taxes to compensate then’. Wehave already seen that with the Tories criticising the SNP for not doing more for those folk disadvantaged by erm the Tories’ benefit changes. This will be tactic hoping people will just blame the SNP and not see it as Westminster’s fault.

      This is partly why we need a new Yes campaign. To inform folk.

    69. Tam Jardine says:

      I agree with Stu highlighting this. Satisfactory encompasses everything from adequate all the way up to outstanding – it doesn’t make a distinction. It is often used incorrectly to mean crap. Adequate is also used wrongly to mean crap.

      Pretty poor for a pre written speech. With regards to some of the personal stuff above- I’m sure Mr Dugdale is very proud of his daughter and I wish her well in the onerous task she has taken on.

      Willie Rennie came across like a cross between an ambulance chasing lawyer and Holy Wullie yesterday.

      I couldn’t help thinking – if all his damnation of the SNP were true, how does it reflect on him and his party that the Scottish people have absolutely zero appetite for putting the Lib Dems in charge.

      Might as well stick Eleanor Bradford in his seat at Holyrood- that’s how Scottish politics is working right now anyway so why not just streamline it?

    70. Zen Broon says:

      As others have pointed out “satisfactory” means “bad” in edu-speak on both sides of the Border. I don’t have the context, but it might even be a clever remark.

    71. R4 says:

      Just heard on STV News that a new opinion poll has put YES at 53% NO at 44% and don’t know’s at 3%.

      Maybe it’s time for referendum 2 after all.

    72. Craig MacAonghais says:

      I keep waiting for any evidence of rational thought from anyone in the UK Labour mob…more fool me I suppose.

    73. Martin says:

      Unfortunately, Stu, this satisfactory in not satisfactory pish is already embedded in the youth of today. There are only superlatives: Everything is either the best or worst thing ever,we only care about 5 and 1 star reviews, even though the others are likely to better reflect the truth. In this, Kezia is simply following rather than leading. Which, granted, is still the wrong thing for a party leader to be doing.

    74. Iain More says:

      BBC is on the NHS bad attack today I see. Who would work fro such a organisation when it is attacked in the Brit Nat Press and Media every other day of the week.

      BBC London obviously thinks all NHS employees are unfit skivers judging by todays outpourings. Disreporting Jackie is just the usual SNP bad.

    75. Dr Jim says:

      @ R4

      55% is the magic number says the First Minister if it holds or goes up Yes Yes Yes!!!

    76. One_Scot says:

      If it’s saying 53% Yes, in real money it’s probably 60% plus. Whether it will stay at that level once ‘Project Fear 2’ gets started and bottles start crashing, is anyone’s guess.

    77. Morag says:

      Just listened to that. I was prepared to cut her a bit of slack if her actual meaning (“no parent wants an education for their child which is merely ‘satisfactory'”) was conveyed by rhetorical nuance. It wasn’t. The delivery was dead-pan and mechanistic.

    78. Onwards says:

      call me dave says:

      2 September, 2015 at 1:59 pm

      Ipso-mori STV poll

      53% YES 44% NO and 3% Dinnae ken.

      I thought it would be a bit more 🙂
      ————

      That’s a 9 point lead.
      Or 55% when removing the don’t knows.

      Brilliant news.

      55% SNP for Holyrood also, and Nicola at 71% approval.

      I think people admire this honest, less confrontational approach she has taken.

    79. One_Scot says:

      There is a lot to be said for the School of thought that states we had to lose the first Referendum in order to realise that Scotland should be Independent.

    80. manandboy says:

      Iain Gray (laughing stock), Johann Lamont (laughing stock), Jim Murphy (laughing stock), Kezia Dugdale (laughing stock) – all voted top of the class by their contemporaries in the school of Labour politics. Consistently the laughing stock of Scottish politics. You’ve got to give them 10/10 for that.

    81. Luigi says:

      Steady folks!

      It’s easy for someone to say “YES”, when there are no consequences. It’s a wee bit more scary to put that “X” in the box on the day (as we found out last September). Quite a few folk bottled it at the last minute, IMO. Some of the bottlers will be more determined to put things right when the opportunity comes knocking again (2020?), but let’s not allow one poll to get ahead of ourselves again.

      There is still much to do before IndyRef 2. The main job is to finish off the red tories so they are no longer an effective (unionist) force in Scotland. As Ms. Dugdale has said herself: “Labour is down but not out”. There are still too many Labour MSPs and councillors lingering for my liking. These have to be considerably reduced in number in 2016 and 2017.

      It’s not as if removing red tories isn’t fun now, is it? Enjoy the journey. 🙂

    82. heedtracker says:

      53% YES is probably same as it was last year and then Project Fear went mental, especially that last two weeks of terror they dumped on Scotland. BBC only has to flick a switch and their attack moves back up to full on Projectt Fear 2. From the ongoing SNP bad campaign alone in the Pacific quay bunker, its just a quick UKOK gear change.

      Look at who got BBC promoted for saving UKOK last year, Nic Roboson and Laura Keunisbergers. Lovely couple. And yes, I know, Blair MacDougal says it was him wot won it but if that’s true, how come Lord thunderbit’s not a Lord or knight or even an OBE.? Poor Bliar, so many lies, so little time.

    83. schrodingers cat says:

      STV poll
      The majority were happy with Nicola Sturgeon, with 71% saying they are satisfied with the way she is doing her job.

      David Cameron did not fare as well, with 68% saying they are dissatisfied with the Prime Minister.

    84. schrodingers cat says:

      Holyrood
      Labour are predicted to fare worse than four years ago, getting 20% of the constituency vote and 20% of the list vote

      labour support still dropping, goodo, this needs to drop to at least 15%

    85. Macart says:

      Nice catch Nana. 🙂

    86. James123 says:

      I know this is just one poll, but if they continue on this trend the consensus of waiting until after 2020 for another referendum may have to be rethought.

    87. jcd says:

      Apparently her old man is some kind of SNP activist, right?

      If so I’d have thought he’d have died of embarrassment by now.

    88. Andrew McLean says:

      Not at all off topic! http://WWW.whale.to/m/disin.html

      Great reading if you want to understand MSM, BBC, and any of our favourite unionist posters on any media,!

    89. Andrew McLean says:

      Not at all off topic,

      This is great reading if you want to understand the subtext of the ramblings of Dugdale, Sliarabour, MSM or the little army of unionist posters on any forum you like.

      http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html

      And to spot the trained UKOK poster

      http://www.whale.to/b/sweeney.html

    90. Andrew McLean says:

      And to spot the trained UKOK poster

      http://www.whale.to/b/sweeney.html

    91. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T just reading new edition off splendid I-Scot magazine (fundraiser still running)
      And notice that Paula Rose has a letter advising of a couple of Wos get together so, but I love
      The I-Scot strapline “The only writing that could ever reach me was the pen of a preacher man”

      Brilliant

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      There is still much to do before IndyRef 2. The main job is to finish off the red tories so they are no longer an effective (unionist) force in Scotland….

      “Only pursuit of the beaten enemy gives the fruits of victory.” 😉

      http://www.clausewitz.com/readings/Principles/

    93. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      In light of today’s STV commissioned Ipsos/Mori poll showing a 53% majority of the Scottish electorate in favour of independence, I thought it might be useful to repeat here FM Nicola Sturgeon’s comments from last week:

      In affirming her commitment to an independent Scotland, Sturgeon said: “We have to be patient. I would call another independence referendum in a heartbeat if I thought we would win it. And next time I want to win it. But that is not what the opinion polls are presently telling us. No opinion poll since the referendum last year has put us ahead. We need to be consistently polling around 55% in favour of independence before another referendum on independence can be called.”

      I can only imagine that independence “…consistently polling around 55%…” will be regarded as a “material change” in Scottish opinion and will trigger IndyRef2.

      Getting there… small moves…

    94. galamcennalath says:

      STV poll. With DKs distributed, it’s more like 54% yes. Nice!

      Interestingly, support for a referendum being triggered by … EU exit 52%, EVEL 50%, Trident renewal 41%. Shows people are unhappy with EVEL when half would see it as an indyref2 trigger!

    95. yesindyref2 says:

      Slow and steady. Drip drip drip, YES = YES + 1.

      Steady as she goes number 1!

    96. Take Independence says:

      I am going to say it because it needs saying it’s not the system that is failing it’s the lazy bitches that are teaching the kids. In the past if teachers complain enough guess what they get a pay rise and the government believing that this will cure the problem, yes there needs to be a standard a standard in teaching and wither or not these teacher are up to the job which in my opinion most are not. The f*cking no campaigners stop moaning you got your wish were still in the UK little tory F*cking lovers. This may have been bottle up inside of me what a relive.

    97. Andrew McLean says:

      Re STV Poll
      Kezia Dugdale, who took over the Scottish Labour party on August 15, has not made much of an impression. Of those polled, 32% think she is doing a good job and 31% are dissatisfied.

      I take it she is a “satisfactory” Leader?

    98. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Powell says: 2 September, 2015 at 10:17 am:

      “In a speech it should have been ‘merely satisfactory’ or ‘simply satisfactory’ to create the emphasis intended.”

      Wait up, Brian, remember this is Kez we are discussing. One must never even guess what such as Kez, “intends”, to impart to the good people of Scotland when she opens her tiny wee mouth to communicate what is going on within her tiny wee head.

    99. Taranaich says:

      @Rev: You call it that, I call it “caring about fucking language”

      I can’t remember a time on this site when there’s been so many people caring about language… 😛

      *runs away giggling maniacally*

    100. David McDowell says:

      Ms Dugdales’ gaffes are starting to become embarrassingly frequent.

      I suppose that’s what happens when you’re reading off a pre-prepared script.

      What is the big problem with just thinking and speaking at the same time?

      People do it all the time!

    101. Nana Smith says:

      @Macart

      Call me dave is faster on the draw. Good to see the polls rising. Fair cheered me up!

    102. Take Independence says:

      Try saying fucking with a star in it.

    103. Schrodingers cat says:

      What ever it is the unionists think they are doing, it doesn’t appear to be working

      71% think Nicola is doing a good job, 68% think Cameron is rubbish

      They don’t sound like hard unionists to me, the hard unionists I know would never say such things to anyone

      This is a very hopeful statistic, it says there are enough people in our population that we can convert and convince to vote yes

      I find this very comforting

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      @Take Independence
      My daughter is a teacher and she’s far from lazy. Once school is over she has all the CfE reporting stuff to do, then prepare for class the next day. She’s been up at times till the wee hours doing the work. And even in the school holidays there’s work to do, courses to attend.

    105. Will Podmore says:

      When the Rev was criticised – ‘this kind of cheap, sniggery, finger pointing’, he responded ‘You call it that, I call it “caring about fucking language”.’
      Sounds like he’s lost it.

    106. ahundredthidiot says:

      Move along now Will Podmore

      Nothing to see here

    107. Robert Peffers says:

      @annie says: 2 September, 2015 at 10:36 am:

      ” – No think that’s James Kelly and he always looks like that”.

      That reply, Annie, made me laugh out loud on a day I otherwise had absolutely nothing to laugh about. It began badly and it continues to become worse.

    108. heedtracker says:

      Will Podmore says:

      He’s not standing for election Will, the Rev I mean. Y’see Will, you must have missed all the times Jim Murphy stood up and talked bollox and now we have Dugdale doing exactly the same. And now, one SLab MP is left in their Scotland region. Red tory Murray gets a lovely puff from hard core blue tory Press and Journal today, but even these creeps cant find a nice photo of that dude.

    109. steveasaneilean says:

      Is Scotland leading the world education league? No but it’s doing okay. We have world class universities producing world class graduates the majority of whom went through Scottish schools so they can’t be that bad.

      The constant sniping from (Not) Labour only serves to dishearten the dedicated professionals trying to do their best whether it be in health, education, social work or whatever.

      And Stu is right – anyone who thinks that it is possible for every school to be better than average is statistically illiterate. Unless we accept that some schools will perform better than others then the only logical alternative is for every school to be as good as every other school – in other words average!

      Ultimately the key to a fairer education system and better education for all is to tackle underlying societal inequalities. But without indepence and the full fiscal responsibility that goes with that any Scottish Government will be working with one hand tied behind its back.

    110. asklair says:

      Seen a few replies to my post re compulsory school uniform, I did hours of research to reach my personal opinion. At the time the best performing education system in Europe was in Finland, no school uniform, no streaming of abilities, shorter school times and more respect for teachers. Try sending your kids in white shirts everyday, any kid whose home life is in turmoil is soon identified, just ready to be bullied. I questioned the fact that much of the “cheap” school uniform, most probably was made by children, “thats not our problem”. Two fingers to all the people who talk pish about how good compulsory school uniform is, great for training the future generation to obey orders.

    111. Take Independence says:

      I’ve hard all this before and I am sick of hearing it so don’t start preaching to me about your daughter it’ll fall on deaf ears. If she good then be proud, I ask myself the question why would you need to start mouthing off about your daughter and her standards.

    112. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tom Webster says: 2 September, 2015 at 11:13 am

      ” … No a 2.1 does not amount to being measured as ‘above average’. Each piece of work is assessed on its own merits, measured in terms of coherence, accuracy, independence, persuasiveness, critical engagement and communicative skills and the like and given a grade of between 0 and 100. If one essay does well by these criteria it would get, say, 65 and the grade would not be increased on the grounds that it was in a batch of poor essays or reduced because it was in a batch of excellent.”

      I’ll give the above comment a 4 out of 10.

      Signed, Professor Stanley Unwin.

    113. bugsbunny says:

      Years ago, in the Private Eye, there used to be a regular column called Coleman Balls, attributed to, of course, the Sports Commentator David Coleman and his many gaffes.

      Can we please have Duggie Balls? it’s only fair and proper. Maybe we can archive all these Duggie Balls into a Wings Folder for future reference?

      Stephen.

    114. Petra says:

      I don’t know how Nicola Sturgeon can bear to listen to Kezia Dugdale and her colleagues, such as Baillie. She must have the patience of a saint. Anyone with a modicum of brain cells knows that children who are living in abject poverty don’t do well at school. Abject poverty relates to many of these children going without meals, sleeping in cold homes / beds, leaving for school without having had any breakfast, wearing inadequate clothing and the general misery of many of them no doubt living with anxious and depressed parents all of which has an impact on learning.

      Ms Dugdale supports the financial and moral obscenity known as Trident renewal. Her party backed the Tories austerity measures. Statistics show that most of the areas that have the highest level of poverty (and educational attainment), consistently over many decades now, are run by Labour Councils. And let’s not forget that the Labour Party in Scotland didn’t have to deal with Tory austerity measures when they were in power. For the best part of the time they even had Blair and more so Brown throwing money around like confetti.

      If she’s truly concerned about the Scots and the children in particular it’s about time she (and others) cut out the SNP blame game, started telling the truth and stood up to the real culprits i.e. the Tories.

      It’s just too bad that she has no one in her party, north or south of the border, of the calibre of Phillipa Whitford (from 6:32 on).

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy452477x88

      There’s no doubt that we always have to keep a vigilant eye on what’s happening in Scottish primary schools (and secondary) but don’t you think it’s strange that you never hear Kezia Dugdale, the BBC, STV etc etc mention the fact that according to UK statisticians (such as ONS) Scotland is THE most highly-educated country in Europe and stands alongside the best-educated countries in the World overall such as Finland, Luxemburg, Canada and Russia.

      ONS chief economic adviser Joe Grice has stated (June 2014) that ” More than two-fifths of Scotlands 25 to 64-year-olds have a college or university qualification. In terms of the proportion of the population going into higher and tertiary education, Scotland actually has just about the highest in the world. Scotland also does very well in terms of people in the working-age population (16-64) that have got a qualification at NVQ4 or above. Both of those are strong indications of a skilled workforce in Scotland.”

    115. tony O'neill says:

      Her parents must be very proud of her,lol.

    116. Stoker says:

      Will Podmore wrote:
      “When the Rev was criticised – ‘this kind of cheap, sniggery, finger pointing’, he responded ‘You call it that, I call it “caring about fucking language”.’
      Sounds like he’s lost it.”

      Away and raffle yer doughnut, he’d buy and sell you twice before he even opened his eyes in the morning. You truly are an attention seeker of the thickest order, eh! Wee Willie Wolf, amateur commie and bullshitter extraordinaire.

    117. Anagach says:

      asklair says:
      compulsory school uniform

      Meta studies of whats effective in education show no link to uniform and attainment or improvement.

      I am not aware of studies in social ostracism, bullying or social inclusion based upon the use of a uniform or not. But there may well be some.

    118. Marcia says:

      Nice poll news to read on returning home to Scotland today. We would need to have a few consistent polls showing a comfortable yes lead before triggering Ref2. However we know what the establishment will throw at us and a lot of it won’t wash the second time.

    119. call me dave says:

      @Nana Smith

      Ach! But you brought the goods to the table with your link Nana which is better.

      I’ve given up on the previous two threads…my heids hurting and I am just standing on the sidelines without carping. Life too short!

      Just reading that labour would double the money the SG is putting into ‘try’ closing the educational gap. Money to burn has labour and many magic rabbits to pull from John Bull’s hat.

      Also listening to the man from Shelter Scotland bestowing very faint praise on the SG initiative for the their assisted buying scheme. It’s not enough he says…Makes you weary…init!

      I hope Sturgeon is not kidding when she says that the SG may reject all these pretendy powers that were not getting.

      PS:
      My Sunday Post Lib Dem father in-law frae Oban actual said without me prompting a discussion.

      “I’ll give the wee lassie (Sturgeon) her due, she did Oban proud on her visit earlier in the month”

      I nodded, in a state off shock, looking into the middle distance where I spotted a ‘Royal family calendar’ on his lounge wall next to the 1953 tapestry of the royal coach and horses.

      To add insult to injury there was a card from Betty behind the door when I brought them home frae Fife after their 60th Diamond Wedding do.

      Didn’t tell him I arranged it all through the Anniversaries Office at Buckingham Palace. 🙁

      Still waiting on radio Scotland to mention the poll…maybe later.

    120. yesindyref2 says:

      @Take Independence
      If you put your fingers over your ears, you can better hear the voices within.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, 53% inc DKs, nearly 55% for YES. Makes me think of a song:

      Indy’s is in the air
      Everywhere I look around
      Indy’s in the air
      Every sight and every sound

      And I don’t know if I’m being foolish
      Don’t know if I’m being wise
      But it’s something that I must believe in
      And it’s there when I look in your eyes

    122. Nana Smith says:

      @call me dave

      I was sure you had given a link, brain somewhat frazzled after yesterday!

      Need to go lie down in a darkened room.

      Good to see you survived the in laws.

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      steveasaneilean
      Watch out, watch out, there’s a Utility Monster on the loose. 😉

    124. dakk says:

      Will Promote

      ‘He’s lost it’

      It’s called hard hitting ,shoot from the hip honest writing.

      Something we enjoy as an antidote to the lies,and propaganda of the anodyne BritNat MSM.

      If you don’t like it go and read some back issues of Soviet Weekly like a good ‘communist’ 🙂

    125. Robert Peffers says:

      @Me Bungo Pony says: 2 September, 2015 at 1:16 pm:

      “Don’t see a story here.”, but then you would say that – wouldn’t you?

      ” … There is a danger of turning Ms Dugdale into a martyr if this kind of cheap, sniggery, finger pointing becomes the norm on sites such as Wings which we rely on to highlight real issues.”

      Oh! I see what you mean – like the way the, “kind of cheap, sniggery, finger pointing becomes the norm.”, way that the electorate now treats the, “Establishment”, unionists these days because of their cheap, sniggery, finger pointing they were doing this very morning.

      This on the day a opinion poll has been published which shows the Scottish electorate are now well over 50% in favour of total independence. It seems not to prevent them from, “cheap, sniggery, finger pointing”, propaganda. In fact they seem to have stepped it up over the past few days.

    126. Fireproofjim says:

      Petra
      Thanks for the link to Phillips Whiteford’s speech. She is great. Not a glance at a note during the whole speech.
      The people of South Ayrshire are lucky to have such an MP.

    127. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      We only need to convince a majority of our population that we are self supporting and we win.
      That has always been the case. That is why our opponents expend so much energy in trying to convince so may that the opposite is the case. That is their only tactic

    128. yesindyref2 says:

      @call me dave
      It’s perhaps the lull before the storm, as Indy supporters become restless, eating our fingers and each other, waiting for whatever comes next. It’s why Indy Ref 2 may have to come even if not the ideal moment, to keep the momentum, though 55% consistenly (as per Sturgeon) is a good guide.

      I think she recognises this restlessness, as I’d say the SNP would prefer 60%, not 55%. It’ll be hard work, but I’d opt for a fairly short campaign, maybe 6 months this time.

    129. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      The low oil price is a blessing, not a curse. The revenue would only represent 1% or so of Scotland’s GDP, so the Unionists won’t be able to pull the “volatile resource” card from the deck.

      “If oil prices rise we’ll set up an oil fund with it” would be unchallengeable.

    130. sandycraig says:

      ” Andrew McLean @3.19 ”
      Good reading on disinformation. I think the all the ” better thegitherers and their media pals ” must have learned that lot by heart. They used every single item in your post.

      Saw the Andy Patterson ” 3000 Trees ” play about W MCRAE at the YEScafe in Liberton last week. Excellent, and then a wee blether after the performance. Recommended.

    131. Al Dossary says:

      The Scottish education system is not failing by any means, but it still suffers from the age old malaise that is the British education system.

      The bottom tier of the system was designed to churn out kids at 16 (or younger if you go farther back) to populate the multitude of jobs that existed back then – whether it was to be as a labourer, secretary or apprenticeship for example. The higher tier was designed to churn out pupils for white collar jobs, maybe even further education whilst the elite (private) tier churned out kids for Higher education if the parents were rich enough (or indeed the kids were clever enough to get a bursary)

      Fast forward to the late 70’s / early 80’s and the jobs had started to disappear. Kids were now being churned out from the lower tier to either get work, a YTS or on the dole.

      I would even go so far as to say that the entire education system is designed such that the vast majority of pupils never rise above their designed social standing.

      Not for a minute do I believe that those at private schools are any more intelligent than their less fortunate peers – rather that they are taught in a much better ordered system, and worked that much harder than our normal schools do. Their day is filled from morning to night by classes, sports and homework. And it churns out well qualified, confident individuals who consistently outperform the majority of our state educated children.

      @Colin Duff – Many thanks for reminding me of Ivor Cutler. Currently listening him on Youtube, reminiscing of my late night John Peel sessions as a teenager. Absolute genius of a man.

    132. manandboy says:

      With thanks to Andrew Maclean above at 3.19pm.

      A message for those who feel the hand of Unionist oppression and exploitation.

      “Truth cannot live on a diet of secrets, withering within entangled lies. Freedom cannot live on a diet of lies, surrendering to the veil of oppression. The human spirit cannot live on a diet of oppression, becoming subservient in the end to the will of evil. God, as truth incarnate, will not long let stand a world devoted to such evil. Therefore, let us have the truth and freedom our spirits require… or let us die seeking these things, for without them, we shall surely and justly perish in an evil world”.

      (Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
      by H. Michael Sweeney)

    133. heraldnomore says:

      Did I just hear the doughty Brian Taylor Esq use the words ‘powerful speech’ and ‘Iain Grey’ in the same sentence? And he a linguist lover, just t like the Rev. Sheech.

    134. Petra says:

      Woweeeee!! some good news delivered by Nana et al. I’m just watching the Chase but it was interrupted by John MacKay STV News who said that a poll has shown that the majority of Scots would now vote for Independence. Have to wait until 6pm to get the finer details ‘big smiley face’.

      Another few months of the Tories policies and hey ho who knows?

    135. call me dave says:

      Big Brian opines on the Scottish radio, excluding the DK’s it’s 55% YES he offers us in subdued tones.

      He prefers to let us hear the powerful speech by Mr Gray at Holyrood but included Mr Swinney seeing him off. Fair enough!

      But wait, his parting shot, hinting that the polis is bad!

      Meanwhile Teflon Tony spins another book as he claims he gave us the devolved parliaments but never saw the Scottish thing!

      Didn’t know where the bodies were buried….Dunbar Tony!

      https://archive.is/h08Mh

    136. Take Independence says:

      yesindyref2

      I know what my voice within tells me about you mouthpiece. I notice you didn’t mention if you where proud of your daughter.

    137. I think the Labour Party and the bbc are doing a great job of digging their own graves

    138. Take Independence says:

      yesindyref2

      Your dreaming for the sake dreaming it’s called a referendum not a neverendum. It need to be called when it will be decisively won and not untill.

    139. gus1940 says:

      Re Ref2 one of the biggest advantages that YES2 will have over Project Fear2 is that unless they can think of something new second time around The Guys In The Black Hats fired off all their ammo last year at the last minute in their desperation.

      The electorate or the vast majority have now seen through the cr-p that was thrown at us in particular the ever so sincere love-bombing and we shall be ready for whatever they try next time.

      O/T Is there no escape from the awful Mone creature? – she even featured in yesterday’s Pointless in questions about famous Scots (don’t laugh)and there seems to be a serious outbreak of cross-infection of Mone Mania from The Herald to The National.

    140. Bill Dale says:

      Philippa Whitford is indeed a class act. We are lucky to have her as our MP, but she is Central Ayrshire, not South Ayrshire. She is a tireless campaigner for Indy and was a top cancer surgeon until winning the seat in May.

    141. Graham says:

      @Al Dossary 5:43 Agree with much of what you say, but main reason for education “failure” is inequality and poverty. NS should have thrown that back at Ms Davidson – since 1979 successive blue governments have increased inequality and have not invested in education because they refuse to tax progressively. I would also get rid of Private Schools – they are the main way the rich continue their lineage.

    142. Cadogan Enright says:

      I hope the SNP Government make ‘Civics’ a compulsory part of the curriculum and that it includes a basic understanding of International Law and Human Rights with its concomitant respect for diversity, minorities and one’s own human self.

      I would hate to see an Independent Scotland where children grew up like in Bath where even the better educated members of society feel that it is acceptable to refer to other peoples skin colour, religion, language, culture as “obsolete”, “pointless” and lacking in utility.

      This sort of expression of dodgy blood-and-soil ethnic nationalism needs to be left with the Rest of UK (ROUK).

      These sorts of abuses have been used by an elite in the UK for generations to impose what they perceive as their dominant and pejorative opinions of culture on other parts of the 3 Kingdoms and the Principality UK-wide.

      Let them keep their colonial right wing opinions to themselves in ROUK while Scotland shines in a country where there are citizens and not subjects and the Government knows the difference while embracing international law and human rights.

    143. louis.b.argyll says:

      Graham,

      No need to point our such glaring inadequacy in Tory polic…

      It’s an argument we have already won.

    144. yesindyref2 says:

      @Take Independence
      Nice try Kez, off you go to FMQ, good luck, you’ll need it.

    145. David Smith says:

      @Takeindependence Might I politely suggest you get back inside your Trojan Horse and fuck off back to 77 Brigade HQ?
      While you’re doing that you might want to stop by 1975 and leave your condescending sexist bullshit back there in its proper place. Male teachers exist too.
      And don’t give us that standard self made, self employed work ethic shite either.

      Now fuck off, there’s a good troll.

    146. Tackety Beets says:

      Call Me Dave @ 5.49

      And there was I clicking your link thinking it was to the ” Dunbar ” story of the day .

      Naw it was C@@t face Teflon Tony’s coupon !

      Ach well ND on RS will give me the real story ……. Aye right !

    147. galamcennalath says:

      gus1940 says:
      “Re Ref2 one of the biggest advantages that YES2 will have over Project Fear2 is that unless they can think of something new second time around The Guys In The Black Hats fired off all their ammo last year at the last minute in their desperation”

      Exactly. This Better Together scenario we were offered isn’t working out too well! Half the scaremongering of Fear 1 are coming to pass within the Union. And, a lot more Scots see it is only going to get worst with the Tories in WM.

      What will they try next time? Perhaps more personal insults and smearing of individuals supporting Indy? It will be even dirtier, I fear.

    148. Gary45% says:

      Classic, every time Duggers opens her mouth, all you hear and see is the sound of a western wind with tumble weeds blowing by.
      Future First MInister!!!!
      of WHAT?????

    149. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath
      Yes, it’s going to be more down and dirty, in fact it’s started already. We’ll need to rise above it and not respond in kind.

    150. call me dave says:

      @Tackety Beets

      Sorry here is what I read a while ago.
      A lot more than about 20 skeletons I fear. Hard times 🙁

      https://archive.is/m6m3C

      http://www.geni.com/projects/Scots-Prisoners-and-their-Relocation-to-the-Colonies-1650-1654/3465

      http://www.scan.org.uk/researchrtools/militarypop2.htm

    151. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cadogan Enright
      We all live and learn, hopefully, as it’s the only vehicle that advances understanding and enables us to read the signs in front of us. 😉

    152. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 2 September, 2015 at 5:38 pm:

      Who said in reply to – Dave McEwan Hill, who in turn said, “The low oil price is a blessing, not a curse. The revenue would only represent 1% or so of Scotland’s GDP, so the Unionists won’t be able to pull the “volatile resource” card from the deck.”

      “If oil prices rise we’ll set up an oil fund with it” would be unchallengeable.”

      More to the point, Yesindyref2, is the stark truth that as Scotland doesn’t get a penny of the oil & gas revenues because the Establishment classes it all as revenues from, “Extra-Regio-Terrirories”, and takes every last penny of them as UK property, it doesn’t change Scotland’s income in any way.

      When the price drops it is the UK’s income that drops and only ther UK’s income..

    153. Take Independence says:

      David Smith

      Are you claiming your a teacher dave, and what’s your link to what I have said to the British Army It’s poeple like you that Scotland doesn’t want, you sound like a small man with no substance. Are you the Husband our what, I bet I can round you off to a tee, you have all your sixty years voted Tory.

    154. yesindyref2 says:

      I see Curtice is on the Ipsos Mori poll “caution caution caution”.

    155. Dr Jim says:

      Whit did ah tell ye twa weeks ago

      The first Minister is going to need a set of those ear defenders she wears when she’s visiting the factories for FMQs

      She’s going to have us screaming in one ear for Independence and Dippity Chief Dug whining in the other Eagh Eagh Eagh
      With Ruthless in the middle tank gun firmly between her loins

      Oooh I just heard that and made a mental picture (I’m so sorry)

    156. Roll_On_2015 says:

      OT – Incoming

      Scotland would vote for independence in a second referendum, new poll finds.

      The dream will never die!

    157. Take Independence says:

      yesindyref2 and David Smith English name

      Talk about being two faced I have only post a comment and your hatred has come right out and youv’e got a fucking cheeck to turn round and say “We’ll need to rise above it and not respond in kind” think before you fucking speak.

    158. David Smith says:

      Says the man who roundly writes all teachers off as lazy bitches.
      That shows true depths of character. Yes I’m a sixty year old lifelong Tory voter.
      That’s why I support a socialist republic for Scotland

      Now fuck off.

    159. Peter Craig says:

      Don’t want to burst anyones bubble but last year three late polls put Yes slightly ahead and the unionists just cranked up their project fear rhetoric.

      If support for Indyref2 starts north of 55% then they will go to DefCon 1 right at the outset.

      I am certain we can win, just don’t think it’s the shoe-in some believe.

    160. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      I see Curtice is on the Ipsos Mori poll “caution caution caution”.

      He is probably right. We want to see a series of polls giving similar, or better, figures.

      Even with the normal +/- 3% on samples of ~1000, this latest poll is good. We want this one to be part of a significant swing to Yes.

    161. john king says:

      @Take independence…
      TAKE A HIKE!

    162. David Smith says:

      “English name” Relevance, please?

      You’re not very good at this, are you?

    163. Take Independence says:

      David Smith

      “That’s why I support a socialist republic for Scotland” Since when, I bet that before the Referendum you never even given SNP or Scotland being independent a second thought.

    164. Truth says:

      On the topic of school uniform. I recall as a schoolboy a debate I had with a teacher who was calling for school uniform.

      I told him I disagreed, but if it was to be forced through I would be starting a campaign to bring back uniform for teachers. Ie mortar board and gown.

      He soon shut up.

    165. @David Smith

      “Yes I’m a sixty year old lifelong Tory voter.
      That’s why I support a socialist republic for Scotland”

      Are you related to Prof Tompkins by any chance? 😉

      @Take Independence … you’re not very good at this, mate. Some of the other trolls have been satisfactory, average even. I award you an F minus. Read this, then come back to re-sit the test.

      http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Troll

    166. heedtracker says:

      Take Independence says:

      Friendly advice, whatever you think you’re doing, you’re making a complete fool of yourself. Its really funny but its not a good look for all and any NO campers creeping about.

      We have already have a fool house of NO horrors doing a far better job than ever can. No pun intended.

      https://twitter.com/kevverage or
      https://twitter.com/drscottthinks

    167. Take Independence says:

      Its not my place to come on her and teach “john king David Smith or yesindyref2” but rather then ask me politely explain my comments or should I say have good manners.
      I am going to say it because it needs saying it’s not the system that is failing it’s the lazy definition bitch “express displeasure grumble”, hence my comment about pay I thought I was making myself clear about teachers. I wasn’t refering to a dog now please stop with your hatred it’s not what poeple want to read if I have offended anyone I sincerely apologize but my experence as a child in the educations system wasn’t a plesent one.

    168. Stoker says:

      As soon as i seen Nana Smiths news, re; new poll, i thought – ‘YES, YA BEAUTY, first step in the right direction, now we need many more of these with the percentages steadily rising.’

      C’mon folks, let’s keep the focus, step up the efforts, keep talking to and converting folk and direct them to WOS.
      Let’s take this fight to the enemy and educate our brothers & sisters. Let’s not wait for a date – let’s make it happen.
      Get out and about and make it count.
      😉

    169. Take Independence says:

      john king says:
      2 September, 2015 at 7:43 pm

      @Take independence…
      TAKE A HIKE!

      Are you the owner of the site Yes or No.

    170. dakk says:

      Take Take Independence and shove him up his COs arse.

    171. Petra says:

      Some great informative posts on here once again. Some are also totally inspirational such as posted by manandboy at 5:46pm quoting H M Sweeney.

      @ Fireproofjim says at 5:31 pm ‘’Petra thanks for the link to Phillips Whiteford’s speech. She is great. Not a glance at a note during the whole speech. The people of South Ayrshire are lucky to have such an MP.’’

      If you want to hear all of the SNP maiden speeches go to the SNP Stirling site Fireproofjim. All brilliant. Listen to Tommy Sheppards speech given without the help of notes too.

      @ Boris at 4:42pm. Thanks for that link to Adam Tomkins Boris. So MUCH to read through such as on the Constitution, Who owns Scotland? Scandal of the hidden rural lords and of course the legality of holding a Referendum.

      On ‘’who owns Scotland’ he (Tomkins) warned that ‘’A vote for independence could spark a bitter tug-of-war between Scotland and England over ‘shared’ UK property” and predicted that under international law, all government buildings, institutions and organisations could be up for grabs.

      On ‘holding a referendum’ he stated that ‘’the law was clear and insisted that the Scottish Parliament could not hold a referendum without Westminster permission.” “The Scottish Parliament was created by the Scotland Act 1998, and the Scotland Act 1998 is the instrument which delivered devolution for Scotland, it created the Scottish parliament and it provides for the powers that the Scottish parliament has …. the Scottish Parliament’s legislative power was limited to that which was devolved to it and as the Constitution was a reserved matter, it had no power to hold a referendum on independence.” The academic claimed that to attempt to try to take on more powers would be in breach of law and would be liable to end up in court.

      And if we were to get our Independence he says ‘’we can be clear about what it would mean in legal terms for Scotland to leave the UK. The rest of the UK would continue and, legally, it would continue as the UK. It would need a new name (the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland) and a new flag (there would be no blue on it anymore) but, in international law, it would be the continuing state. Scotland, by contrast, would be a brand new state. The continuing UK would inherit all of the international legal obligations currently in place in respect of the UK, including its EU membership, its UN and NATO memberships, its seat at the Security Council, as well as treaty obligations under 14,000 different instruments of international law.’’

      I thought that MANY (not all) International legal obligations / treaties and so on made from 1707 until now (such time as we become independent) would become null and void with Westminster having to renegotiate too ….. one of the main reason for the Unions opposition to Independence other than robbing us blind, Trident etc. Maybe someone like Robert (Peffers) could make sense of this.

      Just to let you know that Alex Salmond is on Scotland Tonight at 10:30pm. No doubt will be questioned about the recent poll / next Indyref.

      PS I see that I made a right booboo in my last post. Meant to say highest level of poverty (”and lowest level of” educational attainment).

    172. Dr Jim says:

      Nice to see the Trolls back on when the percentages go up isn’t it though

      It gives them purpose I suppose

      Try not to have battles of wits with them though

      They’re unarmed

    173. yesindyref2 says:

      @Take Independence from your first posting: “it’s the lazy bitches that are teaching the kids.”

      No mistake about that, so trying to crawl out from under the stone with “the lazy definition bitch “express displeasure grumble”” won’t work.

      HAND FOAD

    174. Grouse Beater says:

      Education is the province of the political charlatan.

      They know it costs too much to alter radically so they snipe at it, and snip away at the edges.

    175. Al Dossary says:

      @Truth
      Mortar boards and gowns. My English teacher back in the late 80’s was still wearing hers – as she had been when she taught my mother 20+ years earlier.

      Also just gave my wife the good news that I get back from Saudi on the 18th Sept, and will be going to George Sq on the 19th for a certain rally. She took it surprisingly well, although I have a feeling that it will cost me dearly somehow whether she decides to accompany me or not.

    176. Grouse Beater says:

      Petra: Thanks for that link to Adam Tomkins

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/scotlands-carpetbaggers/

    177. call me dave says:

      @Take Independence

      Your views on teachers are your own, I don’t agree that all teachers are bad, some are , but others are good examples.
      One of your posts was, in my opinion rude, but after the previous threads on here …well.

      I had a range of teachers from sadist tawse swingers who had to get their daily dose in no matter who or what a pupil had done and others who lit a way forward for me towards adulthood.

      The best bunch were in FE and I appreciated all of them.
      Been one myself for a long while after working for a living but not with children, that is a real vocation.

      I’m sure some will cut you a little slack on here for a while…everyone has a song to sing, don’t give up yet.

      Mind you if you are agin independence, you’ll have a hard road to travel.

      Now, who mentioned Ivor Cutler a while back, I’d just about forgotten him and his waste of the airspace on radio 4 extra!

      He’ll be due a re-run soon. An acquired taste 🙁

    178. Take Independence says:

      yesindyref2
      bitches also means whining excessively I have noticed that you are on here all the fucking time just doing that christ havn’t you got a life. Your never going to change the world.

    179. Roll_On_2015 says:

      Here is James Kelley’s take on the latest poll over at ‘SCOT goes POP’.

      In conclusion he states…

      What we could really do with now is an independence poll from TNS – the only other regular ‘real world’ pollster on Scottish political affairs.

      They use the face-to-face approach rather than telephone, and if they come close to replicating Ipsos-Mori’s finding, it could be hugely significant.

      (If they don’t, of course, it increases the chances that the online pollsters are closest to the mark.)

      More details to follow…

    180. HandandShrimp says:

      Kezia’s speechifying would make GW’s heart swell with pridefulness.

    181. Take Independence says:

      I noticed you still havn’t answered my question and I am willing to bet that your daughter has never been a teacher your on here every day moaning about one thing or another.

    182. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      Ah, they’re ‘armless. More Westminster cuts.

    183. Peter Craig: “Don’t want to burst anyones bubble but last year three late polls put Yes slightly ahead and the unionists just cranked up their project fear rhetoric.”

      That’s true. But looking at it another way, there was a 20 point swing to yes over the course of the campaign. Starting at 53%, it could easily be 73% by the time the votes are cast… well maybe 🙂

      There is a big difference from last time though, if a referendum campaign starts with Yes in the lead. The entire Scottish political and media classes will be seriously looking at their job prospects post-Independence: you betcha they’ll modulate their rhetoric accordingly… the House of Lords won’t be swelling much to accommodate failed Uncle Tam hacks from Johnny Foreigner Jockland.

      Similarly, the UK State apparatus will be making contingency plans this time – probably with the view that a split is nigh on inevitable. They’ll keep their sleekitness powder dry for negotiating the divorce. All nicey-nicey during the referendum campaign, and then hardball when agreeing a settlement.

      (IMHO as a random commentard on the internet)

    184. David Smith says:

      Must be short staffed tonight; they appear to have deployed the tea boy…

    185. shug says:

      Am I the only person who listens to the labour party speakers and cringes with embarrassment for them and their party.
      There was a time when, even if you disagreed they could speak in public. The last 5 leaders are barley capable of reading their notes and delivering simple sentences
      It is no wonder the BBC do not broadcast their ineptitude. They know the effect it has!

    186. Robert Peffers says:

      @john king says: 2 September, 2015 at 7:43 pm:

      “@Take independence…
      TAKE A HIKE!”

      Tell you what, John. What with the simultaneous barrage of outright attacks opening up against the SNP/Independence Movement by the Scottish based Establishment parties and the instant support they received from the State Propaganda Broadcasting Company and the rest of the MSM, I was not at all surprised to see lots of new names popping up on WoS.

      Now I may be wrong, and it wouldn’t be the first time, but the former clearly identifiable unionist trolls had gone AWOL then, after a shot rest, a new batch of either infrequent or new commenters immediately pop up with rather chancy posts.

      I have to wonder if this is a change of shift by Brigade 77 or perhaps just the same old trolls flying false colours?

      It is all so well co-ordinated as to raise immediate suspicions. In fact it seems the exact kind of thing you would expect to come from the UK, (they are, “A”, British military not, “The”, British Military force), mind-set.

      The military mind-set is a bit like the Cybermen made infamous by the Dr Who series. Lots of mindless automatons directed by one centrally shared, (usually addled), brain.

    187. Take Independence says:

      call me dave
      Not all teacher are bad teacher I will except the wording of my post was wrong, but I can’t see how anyone can say that the education system in Scotland is failing then look at the goverment to blame, when teachers have the one to one in the classroom with the kids if a adult leaves school and is unable to read and write surly it mostly lies with he teachers not being able to provid the correct method in atracting the kids attention in the first place.

    188. yesindyref2 says:

      @David Smith
      Jezerna’s wee brother maybe. Or sister!

    189. Dr Jim says:

      David Cameron must be in a right panic now
      all in one go he could lose his job as Prime Minister, Lose Scotland, AND Lose the European Union he’ll go down in history as the biggest Tory disaster they’ve ever had

      I wonder if Brenda’s Purring Tonight

      Oooh!! Just remembered Former First minister The Rt Hon Alex Salmond is on Scotland Tonight with “JOHN MCKAY” was that loud enough

      Ye jist know whit Alex is gonny say eh?

    190. Take Independence says:

      David Smith
      Have you talk shit all your life what’s “Must be short staffed tonight; they appear to have deployed the tea boy” If your the best Scotland has to offer fucking god help us all you best stay in the trenches redcoat.

    191. Dr Steinberg says:

      I’ve been waiting all day to hear this. She never disappoints. But somewhere a village is missing it’s idiot 😉

    192. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Robert Peffers at 7.04

      Well said. I’ve been rabitting on about this for ages. I must have written more than ten letters to newspapers pointing this out and none of them have been printed.

    193. Dr Jim says:

      Idiot Stephen Daisley you know the one
      reckons we’ll definitely be Independent in 20 years but even at that we probably still lose

      Consistent thinker that man+ I don’t think he’s paying proper attention to what folk are saying

      “If the people of Scotland demonstrate a demand for Independence” The First Ministers words, so upwardly polling percentages mean, (not a trick question) we get what we, the people demand,

      That’s democracy, and I’ll put money on it being in the Manifesto ( Caveated )

    194. @Robert Peffers
      “It is all so well co-ordinated as to raise immediate suspicions.”

      The crack troops have been recalled from the provinces, to deal with Corbyn’s slave revolt in Londinium. A single ill-equipped auxiliary has been left at the frontier, to lob the odd amphora of flaming pish at us over Hadrian’s Wall.

    195. Take Independence says:

      It doesn’t matter how many polls we have saying that yes is in the lead, we are never going to be able to convince these that have somthing to loose to vote yes, I was hoping for the full fiscal powers,then independence,but that isn’t going to happen. I think our best chance of changing the no voters minds is this in out referendum on the EU and hoping England pulls us out,then and only then will we stand a chance of achieving Independence

    196. Nana Smith says:

      Front pages tomorrow.

      A child’s body being carried up the beach and that bastard Cameron says no to refugees. No to helping people who are in dire need caused by the UK’s insatiable greed and lust for empire.

      Bloody hell is this your shit British values Dave.

      Hate this bloody dirty government and their lackeys at the bloody bbc

    197. Mealer says:

      Things certainly appear to be drifting to Yes.Its difficult to see anything on the horizon to stop the drift.Four more years of Cameron followed by a long stint of Osborne? It’s not going to appeal to many in Scotland.

    198. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Peffers.

      You typed,
      “Signed, Professor Stanley Unwin.”

      Ochone! Deep fundimundilly of joy for the menshold of the mastery of the Anglyfold langwich, the one and twicely Stanley Unwin.
      Deep kudos for the recognishy! You may find this prevail a deep interymost:-

      https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/home/road-to-dundee

      ——————————————-

      Hi yesindyref2

      You typed,
      “It’ll be hard work, but I’d opt for a fairly short campaign, maybe 6 months this time.”

      To me (and others), 6 months is too long. It’s up to the SNP, and all the continuing YES groups, to reinforce the debunking of the LIES that were spread before the referendum. (Like the myth about “no UK pensions”.) A maximum of three months when the time comes would, to me, be sufficient.

      We shouldn’t be using the time before the next referendum to explain where the last one failed; we should have had the info out there – well before any announcement of a vote – so that ‘the ordinary people’ merely need confirmation that a vote for YES is just normal and expected.

    199. Take Independence says:

      Nana Smith
      The World wants to hold its head in shame, why isnt the UN doeing somthing.

    200. gerry parker says:

      Nana@ 9:50.

      Have you seen Munguin’s latest post?

      http://munguinsrepublic.blogspot.co.uk/

    201. Jim McIntosh says:

      We quite rightly should be excited that YES is now standing at >53%.

      NO voters are 11% down, these are probably Labour voters who were hoping for a win in GE 2015. With the Labour party crashing and burning both north and south of the border the chances of a Labour government in the next 10 years is pretty slim and they’ve accepted the fact the only way to break free of the Tory grip is through independence.

      So 8% have crossed the floor and 3% aren’t sure any more, but they have taken the first steps.

      What’s really significant is that this is happening when the oil price is at its lowest for 6 years. So people aren’t being taken in any more with the scare stories.

      Rubbing our noses in it by giving peerages, knighthoods, promotions etc. to leading members of the Better Together brigade, be they official (Tories, Labour, Libs), or unofficial (BBC, Civil Service) hasn’t helped their cause either.

      Ironic that Andrew Gilligan of the Telegraph was up in arms a month before the referendum basically complaining Scottish civil servants had become part of the YES campaign. There was a great quote in the article:

      “John McTernan, a Labour strategist, says: “When we have a Labour government, there will have to be a truth-and-reconciliation commission and people will have to be executed.”

      Could be while yet before they have to call Albert Pierrepoint 🙂 🙂 .

    202. Fred says:

      Interesting intervention by Angela Merkel into the Catalonia question, she states that it will have to apply for EU membership on independence. Fast forward to England voting to leave the EU and Scotland for staying in?

      Will Podmore back from subverting the Labour election I see. Three quid well spent?

    203. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Muscleguy, re your thoughts earlier on the tax issue. I’m sure I heard Nicla this morning explaining that the new powers, (if the Scot Parliament vote for them)did not allow for varying of any single tax rate. Gary R was pushing her for an answer and she said it a couple of times as she was explaing she wanted a progressive system and the way it is set up won’t allow it. To increase the top rate would mean increasing the basic rate. And likewise, reducing basic rate, would mean reducing top rate. Guess its just another example of the trap set by Smith/westminster.

    204. galamcennalath says:

      Scunterbunnet says
      ” The entire Scottish political and media classes will be seriously looking at their job prospects post-Independence ”

      Yes, it’s a whole different scenario if we go into IndyRef2 with a good lead and a real prospect of winning.

      Let’s face it last time many in the “political and media classes” , the Unionist part of course, treated it all a a bit of a joke. Only in the final few weeks did they take it seriously and panic.

      Then there is the whole aspect of being the norm and mainstream, rather than being the fringe and outsider. The pressure is to join the winning side and not be left standing with the losers. Yes would be the conforming option, No would be going against the flow.

      Where careers are at stake, people have to assess their position in a different way!

    205. Graeme Doig says:

      Nana

      Depressing, depressing scenes.

      Cameron reckons ‘Britain is doing it’s bit’. Scotland can only sit and watch.

    206. heedtracker says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      2 September, 2015 at 8:41 pm
      Kezia’s speechifying would make GW’s heart swell with pridefulness.

      I’m not a Doctor but the clinical term for Kezia’s condition is spoonerism, as in James Tiberius Murphy showed classic symptoms of spoonerism and it’s highly contagious.

      There is no none cure, other than losing every seat bar one on their Scotland region but cant wait to see what the Dugdale reign of SLab jibber jabber producerises.

    207. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 2 September, 2015 at 8:13 pm:

      “The rest of the UK would continue and, legally, it would continue as the UK. It would need a new name (the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland) and a new flag (there would be no blue on it anymore) but, in international law, it would be the continuing state.

      Aye! Petra I can make sense of it and the good professors take on it is all utter and complete balderdash. Facts, as always, beat bullshit.

      Let’s start with what would be the legal, “Status Quo Ante”, , before 1 May 1707., (This legal term simply means the situation as existed before the event). It was this – the existing state south of the Scottish/English Border was legally entitled, “The Kingdom of England”. It comprised three former independent royal realms and the legal system of all three was, until 1688, “The Divine Right of Kings”.

      The English monarchy annexed, (not simply joined with), The Princedom of Wales in 1284 by the, “Statute of Rhuddlan”, after defeating the then Prince of Wales, see:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Rhuddlan

      The English Monarchy also annexed all Ireland by, “The Crown of Ireland Act, 1542: see :-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Ireland_Act_1542

      The English tried to also annex Scotland but failed to do so. However, after the wrongly named, “Union of the Crowns”, of 1603, the Scottish King inherited the Crown of the three country Kingdom of England but as Scots law was NOT Divine Right of Kings, James Vi of Scotland could not legally annex the Kingdom of England and thus his designation was James I & VI of two, still independent, realms.

      Then, in 1688, the English who were even then assuming they owned Scotland, deposed the monarch the shared with Scotland, (James II & VII). The English parliament imported King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange as joint monarchs but, (as the price of their monarchy), removed from them the royal veto over the English Parliament. Thus began what England still calls, “The Jacobite Rebellion”. However, you cannot rebel against a monarchy not your own and Scotland was still an independent Kingdom. This Scotland vs England war was to span the Treaty of Union, (1707), until 1745.

      The 1688 importation of William & Mary also changed the law of the three country Kingdom of England into a Constitutional Monarchy but Scotland remained legally different as she still does today – in Scotland the people, and not either the parliament or the monarch, are legally sovereign.

      This was part of the Treaty of Union and Scots law is still different. In Scotland neither Queen Elizabeth nor the Westminster Parliament are legally sovereign. The Professors whole theory is thus balderdash and he quotes English Law which does not apply in Scotland.

      “Scotland, by contrast, would be a brand new state. The continuing UK would inherit all of the international legal obligations currently in place in respect of the UK, including its EU membership, its UN and NATO memberships, its seat at the Security Council, as well as treaty obligations under 14,000 different instruments of international law.”

      So the above is utter pish – is anyone surprised?

      “I thought that MANY (not all) International legal obligations / treaties and so on made from 1707 until now (such time as we become independent) would become null and void with Westminster having to renegotiate too ….. one of the main reason for the Unions opposition to Independence other than robbing us blind, Trident etc. Maybe someone like Robert (Peffers) could make sense of this.”

      100% correct, Petra and if you read the links above re- the Statute of Rhuddlan, The Crown of Ireland Act, The Declaration of Arbroath, The English Glorious Revolution and the Treaty of Union the truth is very obvious.

      “Just to let you know that Alex Salmond is on Scotland Tonight at 10:30pm. No doubt will be questioned about the recent poll / next Indyref.”

      Thank you for that reference, Petra I’ll get my pal to record it for me. He often gets more use of my Blu=ray recorder than I do.

      “PS I see that I made a right booboo in my last post. Meant to say highest level of poverty (”and lowest level of” educational attainment).”

      Ach! We kent whit ye meant.

    208. Grouse Beater says:

      New poll states Scotland will vote overwhelmingly for independence if there was a second referendum.

      Worth repeating:

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/03/12/a-paean-of-praise-for-scotland/

    209. yesindyref2 says:

      @BDTT
      I wouldn’t disagree with 3 months. I’m not sure what the requirements might be though, in terms of Electoral Commission, registration of parties and campaigning groups, checking over the question even if the same as last year’s, passing through Westminster and Holyrood, I guess I was hoping 6 moths for the lot! Which is perhaps a little optimistic all the same.

    210. Brian Powell says:

      I would think Merkel is very worried if Catalonia becomes independent from Spain, Spain would collapse and need bailing out.

      Catalonia is 15% of Spain’s population but 25% of it’s economy.

      So the conversation between Merkel and the Spanish PM would focus on that, hence the threat.

    211. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      The rUK can claim to be the cUK (Continuing UK) and probably be so de facto – unless challenged. Which would be messy and uncertain for iScotland, but also for the rUK.

      Crawford & Boyle considered the 3 statuses of Scotland’s Independence, but, as per remit, dismissed the other two and proceeded on the basis of the rUK being the Continuing UK. Even if both rUK and Scotland accepted the rUK as the cUK it would have to be accepted internationally (which it probably would).

      Unfortunately for the rUK this advice was not only published but endorsed by HMG in their very first “White” Paper, as pointed out by one of the SCFF (Scottish Constitutional Futures Forum) writers, which means it can be used against them, as it were. Which is why nobody sensible publishes their legal advice, or even if they’ve taken any (as per Salmond / EU).

    212. Take Independence says:

      Jim McIntosh
      Do you really think if there was a referendum in six months time we would win, we would have to convince over two hundred thousand Scots that had a valid reason to vote No, what polls has shown us is that opinion polls can get it wrong just look back at the west minster elections.

    213. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 2 September, 2015 at 8:19 pm:

      “No mistake about that, so trying to crawl out from under the stone with “the lazy definition bitch “express displeasure grumble”” won’t work.”

      Oh! Come on! Get real! Be fair – He specifically, if you will pardon the expression, fingered ONLY the, “lazy bitches”, among the teaching profession and for all we know the lazy ones referred to may indeed be all females. One thing I know is that I certainly don’t know.

    214. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the most recent pole and whether there is a discernible movement towards Yes. I’m no pollster but according to extensive poling and academic studies in the run-up to indyref, over 60% of Scots want ‘devo max’ powers, at least. Where are they to find satisfaction as Britain turns EVEL and Scotland is hamstrung by an insipid Scotland Bill?

    215. Charles Edward says:

      The measure of her verbosity should not be misunderestimated.
      Perhaps the OED might consider the adjective Kezian?

    216. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Well no, he/she wasn’t specific at all, he/she implied all female teachers were lazy bitches and then reinforced it by “wither or not these teacher are up to the job which in my opinion most are not”. Note “most”.

      Also when my perfectly reasonable posting about my daughter contradicted what he/she said, he/she threw a typical Jezerna style hissy fit and went after me on a personal level, rather than addressing the point.

      Possibly an attempt to elicit teacher-denigrating postings supposedly in support of the Scottish Government, hence sowing seeds of discord and division.

      Or just a “concern” troll, as in later postings “oh, ah, well, …”,

    217. Gary45% says:

      Watch out for even more lies and biased garbage from the unionist parties.
      Remember last year, oil was on the decline in the build up to the referendum.

      New fields have just been reported to the masses,( the details were kept quiet last year, to help sway the vote.)
      The minute Westminster becomes aware the natives are getting restless again, they will do anything to try and scare the electorate.
      We peaked in the poles one week too early last year.

    218. galamcennalath says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      “over 60% of Scots want ‘devo max’ powers, at least. Where are they to find satisfaction as Britain turns EVEL and Scotland is hamstrung by an insipid Scotland Bill?”

      There is no Yes campaign active at present … Yet the latest poll seems firm evidence of a shift to Yes.

      I would be very surprised if some of those moving are not folks who are disappointed that WM appears set to deliver DevoFA instead of their extensive referendum winning offers!

      Or, the poll shows 50% consider EVEL sufficient reason to hold IndyRef2 as opposed to 41% motivated by Trident renewal. Cameron’s EVEL fiasco is not going down well. It may well have caused people to switch to Yes.

      Or, it could be others who held out hope that Labour would win the GE in May. They now realise that we are in for at least five years of unbridled Tory excesses.

      When campaigning for IndyRef2 does begin, WM are certainly supplying us with plenty of ammunition!

    219. Robert Peffers says:

      @Take Independence says: 2 September, 2015 at 9:41 pm:

      “I think our best chance of changing the no voters minds is this in out referendum on the EU and hoping England pulls us out,then and only then will we stand a chance of achieving Independence.”

      You think so?

      My own feelings are that when the drastic cuts already in that great big sewerage pipeline that runs all the way from the Westminster Establishment’s cabinet room right into the very heart of the Scottish Parliament’s debating chamber.

      The knock on effect of this will not only set the Scottish ling on fire but will see the old Scottish volcanic plugs erupt, casting a very large volcanic ash cloud over the entire Scottish landscape.

      That reminds me, I’d best get the old claymore out of the thatch again and get the Phosphoric acid onto it.

      Note: – in addition to being a chemical reagent, phosphoric acid has a wide variety of uses, including as a rust inhibitor., (it is also a main ingredient in a well known brand of Kola. Just think what it does to your insides).

    220. Fireproofjim says:

      Great that a poll puts Yes on 53% but ca canny. That was about the figure of the last poll before the referendum, and in a few days the vote came out at 45%, as the timid were scared off by Pproject Fear.
      I would wait until several,polls agree that Yes is over 55%.
      I also agree that the campaign should be short – 4 to 6 months, and that postal voting be confined to the unfit.
      Otherwise I would like to see the re-opening of Yes offices in as many places as possible.
      Oh! And Tommy Sheppard to head it up.

    221. Robert Peffers says:

      @Nana Smith says: 2 September, 2015 at 9:50 pm:

      “A child’s body being carried up the beach and that bastard Cameron says no to refugees. No to helping people who are in dire need caused by the UK’s insatiable greed and lust for empire”.

      You are not alone in that sentiment, Nana Smith. However, the figures for the numbers of disabled and sick people in the United Kingdom who have died a short time after being passed as fit for work in the UK also includes the parents of young children. Who will care for those orphaned kids in this cruel UK?

    222. Take Independence says:

      yesindyref2
      I have already made my self perfectly clear you seem to feel that a miscarriage of justice apon yourself when you made the refernce regarding your daughter if you fell I am lying or I am a so called troll by all means seek legal assitance with what has been said if you fell so strongly about this take the matter to a solicitor and lets sort this out I have provided my correct detail when I signed up from my small conversations with you seem to have a axe to grind.
      “Well no, he/she wasn’t specific at all, he/she implied all female teachers were lazy bitches and then reinforced it by “wither or not these teacher are up to the job which in my opinion most are not”. Note “most”.

      Also when my perfectly reasonable posting about my daughter contradicted what he/she said, he/she threw a typical Jezerna style hissy fit and went after me on a personal level, rather than addressing the point.

      Possibly an attempt to elicit teacher-denigrating postings supposedly in support of the Scottish Government, hence sowing seeds of discord and division.

      Or just a “concern” troll, as in later postings “oh, ah, well, …”,. I bet I’ll never hear any thing from you or your solicitor.

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      galamcennalath
      If you want to swank up your quotes, the HTML tags you need to bracket the quote in are [blockquote] and [/blockquote], replacing the square brackets with chevron thingies. It’s not obligatory though, or even expected. At least, I don’t think so. 😉

    224. yesindyref2 says:

      @Take Independence says: “yatter yatter yatter”

      Good grief.

    225. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      The ‘leaders’ of the ‘civilised’ world don’t want peace in the middle east. Though I would also wish for an improved response, I would still recognise it for the rank hypocrisy it would be.

      Completely OT. The Black Vulture of the Americas, has such a robust digestive system that it enables the consumption of carrion infected with Bubonic plague and other nasty pathogens. Fastidiously clean animals though, apparently.

    226. yesindyref2 says:

      @Fireproofjim – YES offices.

      The SNP tried to distance themselves from the official YES campaign during the last Ref, and I think they were right to do so. Support for SNP was around 44%, not enough to get a YES especially as (from Ashcroft) 14% of SNP voters were NO voters. It had to get to the Labour voters.

      I’m not convinced they need to do the same this time, it’ll be a different Ref from the last one, different circumstances with Labour voters down to 20%. I think this time they need to target also the conservative (small c) voters, the likes of the Wealthy Nation project which kept a low profile.

      From that point of view the SNP have a lot of offices, though I’m not sure how many are constituency offices and therefore perhaps unusable for YES purposes.

      The last YES campaign aimed at a warchest of something like £23 million but achieved anout £8 million, though YES offices were self-funded.

      So what I’m trying to say, I have absolutely no idea! YES to YES offices, I guess.

    227. scotspine says:

      @ Take Independence.

      For what it’s worth Private Independence, your grammar, spelling and punctuation are shite.

      Your teachers obviously couldn’t grab your attention sufficiently.

      Is that how you ended up in 77th Brigade? No other option because of an academic deficit?

    228. Take Independence says:

      yesindyref2

      Good grief. I could agree anymore lets all focus whats up ahead I want the same thing as everyone else on here a free Scotland.

    229. Indigo says:

      I now can’t go to the rally on the 19th due to my 8 yr old son getting an awesome musical educational opportunity via his primary school. Damn that Scottish education providing enriching opportunities that get in the way of my political interests…

      I’ve complained about education issues regularly over the past 4 years, there are lots and lots of ways things could be improved, but for all it’s perceived failings a Scottish education is still amongst the best in the world.

    230. Dr Jim says:

      “It doesn’t matter how many polls there are”

      Well yes it does, the First Ministers express words were exactly that

      What she’s saying is if we keep shouting for it and the polls prove that we are then the people of Scotland have spoken
      It’s like a big “HINT” saying C’mon people don’t leave it up to me to look like I’m forcing it on the country you’ve got to make it look like you demand it

      It’s not as if we don’t have the ammunition Cameron’s in a vulnerable position now between The Refugees, The EU vote, Corbyn, The Scotland Bill Vow Promise Pledge Thing and now support for Independence at it’s highest ever

      There’s not a EU Minister wants anything to do with Camerons behaviour at the moment he is Mr Unpopular with everybody

      One last thing, how come the Labour party has got as much as 20% for Holyrood, that needs to come down

    231. Take Independence says:

      Robert Peffers
      Time will tell if you are correct I some how think that a lot of poeple wanted to vote yes but decided to vote No because of there financial circumstances like pensioners I need to make sure I get my wording right or I’ll be crucified I am not saying that pensioners where wrong voting No I just cant see how we can convince somone on a steady income to vote yes, when over two hundred thousand is a lot of poeple to convince in order to make up the numbers.

    232. Take Independence says:

      Ruth Davidson pritty good with predictions lets ask her when the next Referendeum will be.

    233. The Dog Philosopher says:

      I have just seen the front page of tomorrow’s National and I feel shamed that I live in a country that voted to remain politically hinged to a domineering, jingoistic, right-wing neighbour that helped to destabilise the middle-east.

      I also have a three-year-old grand-daughter. If she were to ask me about that front cover I would have to explain that there is nothing we can do, that decisions are made elsewhere, that we have no power to act. She might not quite understand.

      But one day she will.

    234. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Take Independence says:
      2 September, 2015 at 10:40 pm

      “Do you really think if there was a referendum in six months time we would win.”

      Where did I say that? You’re putting words in my mouth.

      “convince over two hundred thousand Scots that had a valid reason to vote No”

      “that had a valid reason” – Now you’re putting words into other peoples mouths. You have no way of knowing why people voted as they did. If their vote was due to straight political or unionist dogma they didn’t need a ‘valid’ reason.

      Assuming a valid reason, as I suggested in my earlier post it may be that they thought Labour would win GE15 and that partially validated their reason for voting as they did. Losing the election undermines that validity.

      One thing I do know is I don’t have to convince them, they have to convince themselves, and from the latest polls it looks like around 230,000 are well on their way to doing that, and another 109,000 just a bit behind them.

    235. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This petition, calling on UK Govt to accept more asylum seekers, just linked via WOS Twitter. Currently at 47,454.

      Don’t know if this copy will work, but here goes…

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105991

    236. Take Independence says:

      scotspine says

      I did post earler that I didn’t have a good education I’ll take on board what you have said and try and post somthing more to your pleasing I might even make it a bit Posh. The old gang out heads will roll I have met this lot before mouthing off behind closed the door, come out and confront me like a man I would say no more wispers on that day.

    237. Ian Brotherhood says:

      It is impossible for an illiterate person to write. That’s easy to prove.

      It is almost as difficult for a ‘literate’ person to feign illiteracy. That’s not so easy to prove.

      ‘Just sayin!’, as they say…

      🙂

    238. Take Independence says:

      Jim McIntosh
      I wasn’t suggesing I was asking.

    239. Take Independence says:

      Jim McIntosh
      left the t out by mistake god helps us all now.

    240. Still Positive. says:

      Scotspine @ 11.58.

      Totally correct that Take Independence’s grammar and spelling are atrocious.

      Even more so in subsequent posts.

    241. Still Positive. says:

      Already signed and shared on FB earlier, Ian, as well as The National front page of that poor wee boy washed up in Turkey. God rest his wee soul.

    242. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not prone to point fingers but I don’t think it’s a common-all-garden Utility Monster on the loose. It’s something far more fantastical. We should observe this un-natural phenomenon, with utmost urgency, as we know nothing much of it’s nature, as yet.

    243. Ian Brotherhood says:

      PS If that last link didn’t work, this one should, and it’s just about to hit 50k –

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105991

    244. K1 says:

      Thanks for the petition link Ian, have forwarded it to everyone I know.

    245. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s possibly something of fairly high significance in this poll, not commented on so far. In the Ashcroft post-ref poll, age 55-64 was 43% YES 57% NO, and 65+ 27% YES, 73% NO. For an approx unweighted average of 35% YES, 65% NO.

      But in this IPSOS-MORI poll, exclduing don’t knows, for 55 or more (no further breakdown), it’s 43% YES, 57% NO – the same as for the 55-64 age group, but way better than the immediately post-ref 65+ group..

      It could be that the message over pensions is getting through to the older generation – that Brown lied about pensions.

      I’d post this on SGP, but in spite of being logged-in to wordpress, my posts just disappear, no being asked to identify food from some silly pictures!

    246. Take Independence says:

      oíche mhaith a thabhairt duit go léir , havn’t mé tógtha aon chion agus is mian le duine ar bith a teach turas pleasent

    247. K1 says:

      I’ve written to Patrick Grady asking him if he can try his best to raise this in parliament, can I suggest that we all send emails to our respective MP’s and get the message out there from Scotland, that this epic tragedy unfolding before us needs swift and immediate action to help as many of those who are coming, as we can?

    248. dakk says:

      Take Independence is probably just Rev Stuart trolling Wingers again.

      A guys got to get a few laughs when he can,loosen up.

    249. yesindyref2 says:

      Following on from my Sep 19 Ashcroft v end Aug Ipsos Mori polls on the 55+ group, the UK Gov have talked about removing the triple lock from pensions in future, and that may have influenced the 55+ group.

      Which would give momentum to the idea that Westminster policies in general are causing a move to YES.

    250. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 2 September, 2015 at 10:39 pm:

      ” … Unfortunately for the rUK this advice was not only published but endorsed by HMG in their very first “White” Paper, as pointed out by one of the SCFF (Scottish Constitutional Futures Forum) writers, which means it can be used against them, as it were. Which is why nobody sensible publishes their legal advice, or even if they’ve taken any (as per Salmond / EU).”

      Ah! Yes, yesindyref2, except that Salmond never actually claimed to have had EU legal advice. So, unless you can back up your claim that he did with a cite or reference I have to tell you that you are whistling in the wind.

      This whole disgraceful BBC inspired incident stemmed from an Andrew Neil TV interview with Alex Salmond. An official BBC transcript of the interview exposes the truth. Neil asked Salmond the question, “did you seek EU legal advice from your own Scottish Government legal officers”.

      To which Salmond replied in the affirmative that he had, “In terms of the debate”.

      Now any fool who translates the question of asking your own Scottish Government law officers for EU legal advice into Salmond having sought EU legal advice from the EU is either an idiot or requires English language remedial lessons.

      Note, it’s late and I cannot be bothered searching my notes for the exact wordings of the interview, so the above is paraphrased. However, both the recorded TV interview and the BBC transcript are on YouTube.

      The truth is the claim is no more than the usual trumped up Labour Party/BBC lies. Salmond has never claimed to have sought or obtained legal advice about Scotland’s legal position from the EU.

      In point of fact the only EU opinions that have been expressed were by the numptie, Barosso who was attempting to curry favour with Cameron who, while always pointing out he was not referring to Scotland, several times stated his, “Personal”, views.

      However, these too were pushed by the BBC and English media but here’s the true, and self evident, facts. Barosso was the President of the European Commission – he was not either an elected member of the EU parliament or their spokesperson. Here is the self evident part – Barosso was an EU “Commissioner”.

      i.e. that is a paid for EU civil Servant with no powers do decide anything whatsoever. His function was to interpret and carry out the decisions of the actual elected EU parliamentarians or, put another way, to administer the EU parliament’s decisions and laws. At no time did he do this in relation to Scotland’s official standing in regard to the EU.

      By the Way. Certain, Scottish born, top EU legal experts have indeed stated the Scottish legal position in regard to Europe. Quite simply Scottish law is based upon the legal premise that the people of Scotland, and not either the monarchy or Westminster or Holyrood parliament are sovereign.

      In short this means that when the Scots elect a member to any parliament they are legally delegating that person to represent the people’s sovereignty in whatever legislature they elected them to. Not so in England, Wales or N. Ireland for in that Constitutional Monarchy the Monarch remains legally sovereign but, in 1688, (Glorious Revolotion), William & Mary signed away the right to exercise their veto over the parliament of the, (three country), Kingdom of England.

      Now, unless you can quote me when a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland signed away their sovereignty to either the monarch or any parliament the legal situation is that we Scots delegate our sovereign right to our elected representatives.

      A secondary result of this is that if we send a majority of our elected representatives to any parliament with a mandate to withdraw from that parliament then those members are breaking Scottish law if they do not carry out our wishes. As wee Nicola has stated it is not up to the Scottish Government if and when there will be another referendum – it is up to the Scottish electorate.

      Furthermore, if our elected representatives have a mandate for another referendum from the electorate then it is not legally in Westminster’s remit to prevent it. You do realise, don’t you, that English law does not apply in Scotland? In fact English lawyers are not qualified to practice law in Scotland.

      Historically Scotland’s people have been legally sovereign since at least the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320. This is also backed up by the English acceptance of the Edinburgh-Northampton treaty as signed by Robert Bruce and my brain is going to sleep so I’m unable to give that date. I’m off to bed before I fall asleep with my head on the keyboard. Good night/ err! Morning.

    251. yesindyref2 says:

      @dakk
      Could be right there!

    252. yesindyref2 says:

      Salmond was of course, good on Scotland Tonight.

      Great double-act with Sturgeon, where he can say what she can’t, with his (what I saw as) hint the Ref could be sooner, rather than later. He emphasised the “within 5 years” part of the poll, rather than the “within 10”.

      Anyway, an hour’s work to do to soothe my guilty conscience.

    253. CameronB Brodie says:

      dakk
      I’m pretty loose right now. Just saying. 🙂

    254. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Yes, Salmond was right to refuse to make any statement either way on the EU thing. In the end he gave in I think, just to get rid of the red herring the Unionists were trying to use to derail the referendum – one of many.

      The sovereignty issue is right in Scots Law, but there are doubts whether that would wash internationally, hence the more straightforward route via referenda which, by and large, are recognised. Other methods are a last resort in Realpolitik terms, only to be used if the “legal” route is blocked.

      Night Robert!

    255. @dakk … the very same thought had crossed my mind too 🙂

      @Robert Peffers, re: phosphoric acid. A doctor told me he saw a video at medical school, where two specimens of human liver were placed in glasses. One glass contained cola, and the other one had straight whisky in it. After a few hours, the liver in the whisky was slightly greenish at the edges, but the one in the coke had completely dissolved.

      @whoever:

      I watched the livestream of Citizen Tommy’s talk in Kirkcaldy the other night. He said a survey of 10,000 people by Edinburgh Uni puts 60% in favour of Independence, if I picked him up right. Does anybody know about that survey? Is it recent? Such a big sample should be fairly reliable, if it was Scotland wide?

      @Take Indy: when you run broken English through google translate, the translation will be even more broken. Just FYI.

    256. Scotspine says:

      @ take independence

      Dèan ás!

    257. Stoker says:

      Book launch – Scotland’s Propaganda War
      http://newsnet.scot/?p=115559

    258. john king says:

      Take independence transmitting from a bivouac in Blairadam forest
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfAeMtcURg0
      give up man your deluding only yourself.

    259. john king says:

      Take independence transmitting from a bivouac in Blairadam forest
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfAeMtcURg0
      how are those roast squirrels btw?
      bet your glad you didn’t sleep in the day they did basic survival in the 77th eh?

      give up man your deluding only yourself.

    260. Take independence says:

      Can I just give a bit of advice to some people in Wings Over Scotland you need to take some time away from the referendum your starting to bog yourself down with hatred and that every individual that come here is a unionist or a spooks, just because they don’t agree or have made a mistake. To be honest I gave money to support Wings Over Scotland but I wouldn’t have to reconsider it again after my experience on the site I had heard in the papers about the abuse on this site but dismissed it, I now know it to be true how grown adults flock and gang up on a individual shames me I am sure that the site wasn’t set up for the purpose of the above. I can now understand what the No camp must have went through during referendum and trying to second guess constantly what the SNP are going to do there is brighter and smarter people than us and guess what they don’t know but I can tell you this that if the SNP wanted Independence it could take it without a referendum. I know there will be one or two adults in here that will consider what I am saying is genuine and trust me it is. I do apologize for my grammar but most of you seem to understand.
      john king

      “give up man your deluding only yourself.” about what state something more specific give up on drink tea give on looking at the weather oh I got it give up on smoking no fishing no wait a minute no still hadn’t got it

    261. john king says:

      ““give up man your deluding only yourself.” about what state something more specific give up on drink tea give on looking at the weather oh I got it give up on smoking no fishing no wait a minute no still hadn’t got it”

      Hope your getting double time for being back on shift so early?

    262. Take Independence says:

      I have got it give up listening to the King, that it, I have got it thats right he was in the army HE BEEN DEAD FOR 28 YEARS SORRY I AM HAVING TO shout out.

    263. louis.b.argyll says:

      Robert Peffers,
      Thanks for laying out historical truths, as always.

      If Scotland has never, given away it’s sovereign right to control it’s own affairs…etc

      COULD YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF THE POWER WEILDED BY E.U. Commission…in relation to the democratic power GIVEN TO OUR REAL REPRESENTATIVES.

      seems to me that top down reassessment of democracy is required.

      We don’t allow bishops to vote in parliament.. or oil barons (Mr Wood).so why do we give failed politicians such respect…

    264. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Take Indy 07:37

      What?

    265. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Well that last post suddenly got much better at spelling, didn’t it. The lack of full stops is to be expected though. Keep going, with the spelling epiphany happening so soon, who knows, grammar may not be far behind.

    266. cearc says:

      Petition to help these poor people who the UK government are happy to spend a small fortune dropping bombs on.

      Over 66,000 now.

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105991

    267. john king says:

      “I have got it give up listening to the King”

      That’s the name I’ll be putting on the census
      will you be putting Mr T Independence?

    268. manandboy says:

      A child, washed up on a beach, dead, is hard to walk past. His picture dominates the global media today.

      Neo-liberals don’t like refugees because refugees need help. Neo-liberals don’t do help. Neo-liberals take; they don’t give. Cameron & crew are Neo-liberals through and through. To Cameron, refugees are swarming all over Europe. Like locusts perhaps. To Neo-liberals, refugees are just like locusts, which threaten to eat into their profits.

      Cameron wants to have the locusts dealt with where they come from, so that they don’t become a problem for the Neo-liberals in the UK. Britain’s neo-liberal Tory government believes 100% in austerity for the 99%. That includes refugees.

      A boy is dead on a beach. To the UK Government, there’s no difference between him and all those who have died through Tory austerity policy. In the UK today, what matters is the love of money. They say it is the root of all evil. Is it surprising then that the UK Government is so frequently associated with evil- like fraud, tax evasion, institutional lying, child molesting, illegal war costing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians their lives.

      As part of the UK, Scotland is in a very very bad place – and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. And all for the sake of a simple yes vote in 2014. No battle ever lost in Scotland’s history can compare with the loss at Indy14.

    269. Take independence says:

      I never know the census was coming round Dundee, morning everyone. No sign of the call to arms.

    270. galamcennalath says:

      “On Monday, Angela Merkel said Germany expected to take at least 800,000 asylum seekers this year. The figure is likely to go up, and could hit 1 million, Berlin says. In 2014 the European nation that accepted the largest number of refugees in proportion to its population was Sweden. Hungary, Malta, Switzerland and 13 other countries accepted more asylum applications than the UK”

      https://archive.is/cyJRX

      Thing that get’s to me most is that the countries causing the problems, the U.S., UK, are the least willing to accept responsibility for their actions and help!

    271. Allan Watson says:

      O/T. Angela Merkel’s profile in Europe continues to climb. She is not afraid to put her head above the parapet and lead from the front. Whether she gets it right all the time is open to debate but at least she “leads” where others fear to tread. She has prominent views on the various financial crisis, Catalonia and independence and the tragic refugee disaster currently unfolding.

      We have Cameron. He appears to be a rabbit caught in the headlights with his thumb up his bum and his mind in neutral. Doesn’t know what to think or do. He is the UK leader and not for the first time is caught wanting. He is totally out of his depth in world politics and is more suited to lead a local town hall committee.

      Under Merkel Germany is achieving what it failed to do in two world wars ie dominate Europe. Looking at that incestuous cabal in Westminster its maybe not a bad thing.

    272. galamcennalath says:

      Interesting tone in this SNP press release…

      http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/sep/mundell-must-strengthen-scotland-bill

      “The SNP is demanding that the [Scotland] Bill is strengthened …”

      “… the SNP is demanding that the permanence of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government must be acknowledged….”

      Fairly tough talking. I would like to think WM delivering DevoFA is, at least in part, grounds for IndyRef2.

    273. Flower of Scotland says:

      @galamcennalath

      Absolutely right! How can anyone think otherwise! We bomb the hell out of these countries and when we decide we’ve had enough we just up and leave them to pick up their lives! Why aren’t politicians from all countries accusing USA and UK. The USA I’d still bombing Syria via drones!

      Do the BBC in Scotland scour the country for the most despicable people to put on the Kaye Adams (but Louise today). Three women so far wanting to let more refugees in. Have,not listened for about about a year. Nothing changes! Start off with the positive arguments, draw you in then bang you with negative ones and then end the programme!

      @Take independence.

      Do you like your new job! I don’t!

    274. Dr Jim says:

      This Take Independence guy is either a machine or someone to whom English is not even close to a first language

      Slightly puzzling though the spelling of his moniker is the only thing that is correct and if English is not your first language Independence would be a difficult word to spell

      It’s Stu with a new toy machine (wordy makey uppy thing)
      or somebody really ripping the Piss

      Or a Martian, Ah now that’s a conspiracy ( Bliar McDonut)

    275. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alan Mackintosh
      Perhaps Cladogenesis? 🙂

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium

    276. heedtracker says:

      Take independence says:
      3 September, 2015 at 7:37 am
      Can I just give a bit of advice to some people in Wings Over

      So do you want WoS to shut down, people to stop posting comments, vote ukok SLabour again?

      Its the dreary dishonesty stinking up so much of ukok unionism that really stands out.

      England controls Scotland, obey your queen, watch the BBC, rule britnatia, most powerful parliament ever, best goal I ever watched, Gaza scoring at Hampden, strength, power, security, vote no for federal uk, Sturgeon most dangerous women in teamGB, Trump says you’re crazy… and I haven’t seen a Press and Journal today

    277. louis.b.argyll says:

      Take independence..

      Aw diddums.

      I think you’ll find that abuse is something that deliberately causes discomfort.

      Obviously the truth hurts some more than others.

      I have no sympathy for you, or me.

      We need to remove real abuse by misguided representatives.

      It’s tricky, needs strong language, needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

      If it’s too loud for you, turn away, but don’t tell us to keep quiet.

    278. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alan Mackintosh

      Morgellons?

      (no offense meant sufferers)

    279. highseastim says:

      “Average in prosperous Elgin, nearly top of my class in secondary in Dundee”, I’m sure the Moray Labour Party at their next meet in which ever phone box is available, will be delighted to hear that!!

    280. cearc says:

      The Petition to UK government is moving fast this morning!

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105991

      Over the 100,000 mark now.

    281. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 2 September, 2015 at 11:08 pm:

      ” Well no, he/she wasn’t specific at all, he/she implied all female teachers were lazy bitches and then reinforced it by “wither or not these teacher are up to the job which in my opinion most are not”. Note “most”.”

      Here we go again playing with words that do, in fact, have precise meanings. You use terms like, “wasn’t specific”, and, “he implied”.

      Yet he was indeed specific and thus could not also be implying anything. He specified the, “lazy bitches”, among the teaching profession. So it must be only in the individual reader’s mind that concludes all teachers are both females and lazy bitches.

      Note here that I have already stated I do not know the present situation in regard to the teaching profession. My point is only concerned with the use, or correctly misuse, of the English language on this forum.

      “Also when my perfectly reasonable posting about my daughter contradicted what he/she said, he/she threw a typical Jezerna style hissy fit and went after me on a personal level, rather than addressing the point.”

      Whoa! There! I’m pointing out that you are jumping to conclusions, I cannot presume to judge either of your points of view. He specifically speaks of the lazy bitches in the teaching profession and you jump down his throat claiming he said the entire teaching profession are female and lazy bitches. Language, in the main, has precise meanings and words that do not have precise meanings are designed to be imprecise for good reasons.

      In other words this is a pointless argument on both sides. The whole history of the United Kingdom is beset by the Establishment deliberately misusing precise words in order to forward the aims and ambitions of the Kingdom of England.

      They have been at this since the Romans left Roman Britain. That, by the way, refers to the beginning of the whole on-going Establishment propaganda exercise. They wrote their history as if Roman Britain included the entire British Isles. it did not.

      They still confuse Britain, the UK, England and Great Britain to further their ambitions to own the lot. These terms are precise. They all mean different things but the Establishment’s leadership will constantly confuse the terms. Often several times in the same breath.

      David Cameron often claims he is the British Prime minister and that, “His Government”, will, (for example), use the British Armed forces to do some task or other.

      Cameron is actually, “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”.
      He is the Prime Minister of, “Her Majesty’s Government”.
      The troops he sends in are, “The Royal Navy”, The Royal Air Force”, and, “The Soldiers of the Queen”.

      Now the Queen herself is not even the Queen of Britain for Britain, (which is an archipelago), includes the Republic of Ireland and a monarch has no part in a republic.

      Britain also includes three, non-UK, Crown Dependencies that are independent of the United Kingdom Government. Yet these Unionist make such claims as, “If Scotland leaves the UK they will no longer be British.

      Just as I wrote that BBC Radio Scotland’s news reader just announced several things what, “Britain”, will be doing in regard to the refugee crisis. Yet neither the BBC nor the UK government speak for Britain. They both speak for the UK and, in Establishment speak, that means specifically, “England”.

      Think I’m wrong? Well consider the claims as described by David Mundell quoting from the UK government funded paper by those two commissioned professors, “The Treaty of Union EXTINGUISHED the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

      That is how the English Establishment propaganda machine has been working since the Angles were first invited into south Britain by the south Britons and who subsequently gave their name to, “Angle Land”.

      Their main problem has always been that what they term the, “Celtic Fringe”, has never wholly accepted that the southern English Establishment actually owns all of Britain. What’s more history and law proves the Celtic Fringe to be correct.

    282. Graeme Doig says:

      cearc

      66 000? It has doubled overnight!

      Anyone know how quickly (or slowly) it takes for a debate to happen after it has been triggered by 100 000 signatures?

    283. john king says:

      Dear Aunty Heedtracker
      I have this girlfriend who I acquired quite by accident
      she takes a very independent standpoint but she was posting rubbish online and I tried to persuade her she’s talking shit, now she thinks its a signal of my undying affection and she wont leave me alone, I know you’ve had some experience in this area can you help me PLEEEEEASE!
      yours,
      nervous

    284. David Wardrope says:

      “I voted Yes, have 20 Yes tattoos, gave over 5,000 Scottish pound notes to Scotland’s saviour Rev. Stu, I knocked on doors till my knuckle bones were showing, drank bathloads of Irn Bru, hung on alixsammins every word, and cried like a baby when I finally got to put an ‘X’ in the box that would free Scotland from being an oppressed appendage of a long defunct empire. But I’ve read a couple of comments on here that I don’t agree with so f**k you all I’m a unionist now…..”

      is the standard template of every troll to grace this site.

      That is all.

    285. Les Wilson says:

      The National today is heart wrenchng, with a dead child refugee on the front page. Our “leaders” and all “leaders” across the EU need to get a comprehensive policy of aid in place and now.

      Fences will not deter the refugees,with compassion we all must act, bring pressure on politicians to end this suffering, it is now inhumane. Cameron and his ilke need to get their heads straight and get their stoney hearts in tune with reality and help people. Now!

      Also today, I am finally impressed with the editorial in the National, I hope they keep it up.

      Beware of the latest Indy polls,they are exciting, that is for sure but,we need to consider that our enemies ie the British state, will have been preparing for such an event as the referendum being re enacted. There is nothing they would want more than see us going ahead on false hopes.

      It is also pretty obvious that they have little ammunition to use that they already have not used. So look out for multiple lies, buckets of deceit and much more underhand tricks.
      For as wee know, they will stop at nothing to retain their stranglehold on Scotland. Just be careful with what you see and hear. There will be traps a plenty.

    286. john king says:

      anybody else getting bother loading google chrome?

    287. heedtracker says:

      john king says:
      3 September, 2015 at 10:28 am
      Dear Aunty Heedtracker

      “For the past lifetime or so, England has ceased to be able to turn me on, to the point where I am almost repulsed by our lovemaking. Recently, I broke down and told England everything. Since then, England has done everything in its power to get us back on track. The problem is now me! Even though this is all I’ve wanted, I can’t bear to be touched in certain areas.”

      Aunty heed

      “This “hot potato” syndrome is not uncommon: one partner has an issue, but once Scotland throws it off, the other catches something too hot to handle. In many ways, it is a good thing that England is responding so energetically to your plea for change, and you did an excellent job of moving beyond what had become a long-term impasse. But real change takes more time, and this current phase in your relationship is only a stepping stone.

      Creating a climate for new English possibilities doesn’t guarantee that either of you will like the results. At this point, a considerable amount of refinement needs to occur, and an even greater degree of honesty. For example, you say you don’t like to be touched in certain places, so the exact details of this must be gently communicated to him, and he needs to be shown exactly what you would prefer. You have done very well so far – be brave enough to address the next steps, which are largely about better communication.

      Cut n pasted from rancid The Graun’s Pamela Stephenson Connolly stuff, with a two word change.

      Otherwise, stick a bag over your own head:D

    288. Thepnr says:

      Kezia just like Jim before her will lose Labour votes to the SNP.

      Watch how she delivers her message compared with Nicole Sturgeon or even Ruth Davidson, there is nothing there and even she does not believe in her pre-prepared script.

      Offering trinkets disguised as gold to the voting public just doesn’t cut it anymore and she should get a new script writer even if her only ambition is to survive as Labour branch office leader in Scotland beyond 2016.

      Think of her election as another gift to the Independence cause, for surely that is what it is.

    289. David Wardrope says:

      @ John King

      “anybody else getting bother loading google chrome?”

      Me too, thought it was just my laptop.

    290. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      I want your babies, do you think there’s a chance?

    291. Thepnr says:

      O/T
      September 1st

      Angela Merkel “If Europe fails on the question of refugees, its close connection with universal civil rights will be destroyed.”

      September 3rd

      Wall to wall UK media coverage about the plight of the refugees and how that many are “genuine” refugees seeking refuge from war torn countries.

      “Their lives are threatened” Hypocritical bastards.

      We know whats coming next.

    292. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Today’s National has a particularly driven piece from Lesley Riddoch and a magnificent offering from Wee Ginger Dug . Trump’s motto he tells us is “We will overcomb” (and the editorial is exactly right)

      This is the recorder of the better country we would like to be.

    293. Les Wilson says:

      john king says:

      I too have bother with Google chrome, and have now transferred over to firefox, I like the new version.
      It is fast too with a load of apps that address security.

      When I was trying to search on chrom a pop up appeared which you are supposed to accept if wanting to use chrome, if you get this open the options which say that all your info will be held at google UK, all your searches and everything you do and assume say online will be archived.

      I read this as collusion with the British state, I refuse to sign it. However using firefox or even safari allows searches via google with the restricions of having to sign up to google chrome direct and having to sign up to this odious policy.

      Firefox is excellent now and the way to go.
      Hope this helps.

    294. Will Podmore says:

      Dear Stoker, thank you for your thoughtful series of abusive and inaccurate insults – very revealing of your moral and intellectual level.

    295. DerekM says:

      ot

      If you guys want an alternative to chrome,IE,firefox check out maxthon 4,been using it for years since mx1,dont even have chrome or firefox installed anymore,it works of the IE engine and does it better than IE does.

    296. john king says:

      “Firefox is excellent now and the way to go.
      Hope this helps.”

      Just downloaded it I haven’t used it for a couple of years and so far very impressed cheers Les

    297. bookie from hell says:

      hope this quote isn’t true/twitter

      Salmond: “I prefer people of faith to people of no faith or people who have lost their faith.”

    298. john king says:

      Well, raw emotion in the Scottish parliament,
      Nicola’s voice almost broke when she was talking about the sad little boys death (Syrian refugees) and the Labour woman broke down, genuine emotion, I had a lump in my throat

    299. john king says:

      Thanks DerekM
      just downloaded maxthon4 and trying it out now. 🙂

    300. john king says:

      Wow, post appeared immediatly, much like. 🙂
      but the name and mail bars have to be typed, I thought it would have memorised my details the after I typed them in the first time. 🙁

    301. liz says:

      @Robert Peffer Thanks for that really informative article re Scotland’s sovereignty.

      I knew some of that but your post puts it clearly

    302. galamcennalath says:

      bookie from hell says:

      hope this quote isn’t true/twitter

      Salmond: “I prefer people of faith to people of no faith or people who have lost their faith.”

      Seem OK if it was meant in a political sense. I’d worry if it was meant in a airy fairy spiritual sense.

    303. Onwards says:

      Fireproofjim says:

      2 September, 2015 at 11:30 pm

      Great that a poll puts Yes on 53% but ca canny. That was about the figure of the last poll before the referendum, and in a few days the vote came out at 45%
      —————–

      The final polls in the week before the referendum actually showed NO with small leads averaging around 5-6%, and the final result turned out to be within the margin of error.

      The famous YouGov poll that put YES ahead for the first time was around 11 or 12 days before the vote.
      I think there was some concern at the time that YES had peaked too soon. And sure enough, it brought on panic stations. We had the promises of radical home rule wheeled out as a bribe, and the BBC going into overdrive in the final week with the bank threats.

      This recent poll is the best ever for independence support with a 9 point lead for YES. And it’s a standard full scale phone survey.. not commissioned by the SNP or any pro-Indy group. Very encouraging.

      But I certainly hope there is no wording in the SNP manifesto regarding polling targets to be hit before another referendum can be called.
      Unofficial targets are fine.. but nothing that can box us in. The option needs to be there for a snap poll over the next 5 years if circumstances dictate.

    304. Tackety Beets says:

      @ heedtracker

      P&J . Check out todays headline , and think or just imagine the same headline a year ago !

      I was brought up with the P&J delivered everyday and in the 60’s took it as a balanced neutral paper.I used to read it whilst visiting my now elderly parents.

      Its that bad now a canna thole it !

      JK , one of our work pcs with Firefox was playing up yesterday with the wee thing whirlin trying to get G Chrome . It seamed to open a slightly smaller window and do the whirl thing , elfin pest .
      I ended up clearing all history etc etc and its been fine ever since.

    305. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T posted this before from my iPad but its disappeared so will try now from desktop

      On August 24th a Blue Whale was protographed transiting the Bay of Biscay where they are seen occasionally. Fast Forward to 2nd September,and the UK newspapers,radio,tv carry a story that this Blue Whale which remember was photographed on August 24th in the Bay of Biscay is the first photographed in ‘English” waters. They are not even trying to hide the fact that is was in the Bay of Biscay when it was photographed. Complete non news story.

      Why has it become “news” what news story are they trying to get shoved down the list?
      Could it be a little Syrian boy lying drowned in the surf?

    306. Clydebuilt says:

      O/t. FMQ’s on BBC radio Scotland …..at approx 20 mins in ….Andrew Kerr gave a summing up of previous debate lasted several minutes…..Just long enough to ensure listeners heard nothing of the Question on BBC renewal nor the FM’s answer .

    307. Dan Huil says:

      Dugdale tries to hide it but her hatred of pro-independence parties and people is clearly still noticeable under the surface, bubbling away just waiting to explode.

    308. Dr Jim says:

      @ Bookie from hell

      I don’t think he meant God stuff he was generalising as in eg: having faith in, believing in, having hope in say Scotlands future

      Not Alex’s style to do God

    309. Clydebuilt says:

      Wrong email used on last post…….

    310. tartanarse says:

      Dear Mr Take Independence

      Earlier you offered some advice which I’m sure we all read. I’d like to offer some to you.

      Fuck off. There’s a chap.

    311. DerekM says:

      @ John

      your welcome John its a pretty neat browser well it was created by the father of all browsers the guy who made firefox(netscape navigator),then they sacked him and froze him out so he went back to China and created maxthon to say get it up you lol

      Speaking of China i see there is nothing being said about the fact the west bullied by the Americans have failed to turn up at the 70th and first ever Chinese celebration of victory in WW2 against the forces of darkness,strange since we did all fight the Japanese together.

      Maybe that is what they want to keep quiet.

    312. Chic McGregor says:

      @Onwardrs
      “This recent poll is the best ever for independence support with a 9 point lead for YES. ”

      Fraid it isn’t, see for example, the ICM poll from June 29th 1998 on the attached leaflet. 56% Yes, 35% No, 9% DK.

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/43awtrxabajp4ta/IFMarchleafletinside.jpg?dl=0

    313. mike cassidy says:

      Take Independence 7.37

      To be honest I gave money to support Wings Over Scotland but I wouldn’t have to reconsider it again after my experience on the site

      Must have gone to the same school as the Kez!

    314. galamcennalath says:

      Onwards says:

      “The famous YouGov poll that put YES ahead for the first time was around 11 or 12 day”

      Also, there has been much talk of a private poll for BT which they received on the 5th Sept. This also put Yes in the lead and caused blind panic in their ranks. Federal Brown was wheeled out on the 8th across all networks to spout forth guarantees of DevoSuperFederalHomeMaxRule.

      The Ashcroft poll conducted just after the voting closed shows that a significant number of No voters made their decision on promises of more powers and made their minds up late. This evidence certainly points to the More Powers campaign of the last 10 days swinging it back to No.

      So I don’t think it’s a case of peaking early. I believe deceitful offers of fantastic powers were always planned to be BT’s last ditch defence. Deployed only if absolutely necessary. It probably won it for them.

      However, without this it would still have been close. The real counter would have been to have a bigger lead, probably by having currency better set out.

    315. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers: “He specified the, “lazy bitches”, among the teaching profession. ”

      No he didn’t, that’s you not him, read his original posting.

    316. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers: “and you jump down his throat claiming he said the entire teaching profession are female and lazy bitches”

      No I didn’t, read my anwer to his original posting.

      Accuracy in language is important Robert, but so is reading what’s there, not what is not there.

    317. manandboy says:

      Even with fully comprehensive, cast iron polls of 70%, I would put my money on Westminster to rig a result for No.

      As they say, it’s not the votes that count, but who counts the votes.

      Westminster simply CANNOT under any circumstances, afford to lose Scotland’s vast wealth and natural assets.

      Too many politicians in Scotland are simply too naive to deal with the Unionists. A smart suit, a silvery tongue, a bribe or two perhaps, and all the brave Independence talk comes to nothing. Holyrood trusted Westminster to deliver the Smith proposals. How gullible can you get?

      Remember this. On September 19th 2014, Europe’s politicians and financiers heaved a sigh of relief when the No result was announced. They all know that England will go down if Scotland gets its freedom; and if England goes under, what price the European Union?

      Scotland must become a bit more canny, every step of the way.

    318. CameronB Brodie says:

      This document is meant for all those interested in the lead up and current events surrounding the war in Syria and the creation of the Islamic State (ISIS).

      Below is a timeline ranging from 1992-2015 with related articles to the war in Syria, ISIS and geopolitical events that tie them all together. Purposely the author of this document provides No commentary.

      You will notice that each citation is met with origin of the article, date published and key quotations. Also, the author attempted to find sources that many “Westerners” would consider “mainstream”, with the exception of a few. Lastly, at the end of the timeline, one can find longer articles and videos that the reader can dive into if interested.

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/syrian-war-islamic-state-isis-creation-timeline/5472680

    319. yesindyref2 says:

      @Chic McGregor
      Yes, I remember that too. On Scotland Tonight the guy was saying it was the best ever and while I admired his enthusiasm, I had to make a mental comment that he was wrong.

      Aroound the turn of the century a few polls put Independence ahead, even not excluding the don’t knows. It was either the Devo Ref factor – or Braveheart! (ducks and runs for cover)

    320. Phronesis says:

      ‘today the masses are a mute referent,tomorrow, a protagonist of history; but only when they speak up will they cease to be the ‘silent majority’ (Baudrillard ,1983, in the Shadow of the Silent Majorities)

      The recent Independence poll is excellent news but we are still on a journey- away from the destructive vortex of neoliberal austerity and the ‘Masters of the Universe’ who indulge in aggressive ,risky profit- seeking and short terminism that has brought the global economy to the brink of collapse.

      On a day of unspeakable tragedy when a child fleeing conflict in his own country is washed up on a beach the PM has nothing of substance to say to us. UKOK will not offer sanctuary to the victims of a conflict despite the culpability of UKOK’s libidinal policies in creating the situation.They shame themselves.

      Scotland will have its independence. We are a progressive forward and multicultural society and we are all the better for welcoming citizens of other nations to become citizens of this one. Many ethnic languages are spoken in Scotland- Urdu,Punjabi,Arabic,Farsi,Polish…including this one

      Caesar! bi misneachail

      YES we will.

    321. yesindyref2 says:

      With the potential for Indy Ref 2 happening any time really, since Sturgeon has set one trigger as the renewal of Trident, which is likely to happen in 2016, Robert Peffers history is very important to read and understand, as it sets out the framework of the constitutional position of the UK.

      Most analyses say there are three ways of Scotland becoming independent, 1. Separation, 2. Dissolution, 3. Secession. What they all do is work forward in time with their discussion.

      In January 2013 the UK Government published its first White Paper which discussed the constitutional framework and they took the very unusual step of publishing their “legal advice”, in the form of Annex A by Crawford & Boyle, two professors one of Cambridge and one of Edinburgh I think.

      What the UK Government had realised was that Scotland’s Indy posed a real threat to the future UK’s – the rUK’s – position in the world. Quite simply, as the Tory ex-Scottish Secretary Forsyth said “if Scotland leaves the UK, the UK ceases to exist. That would be a real problem for the rUK.

      So what they did was give the two professors the remit of working out how the UK would be the Continuing UK in the event of our Independence. What the two professors did was examine all the 3 options, find a reason for dismissing two of them, and explain why “secession” would be the way it would all turn out. “Secession” by Scotland would leave the rUK as the cUK, and Scotland as a new state.

      To do that, they found a major major major obstacle, namely the Treaty of Union. And indeed, the Acts of Union which enacted it. Their way of solving this was to “prove” that the Treaty of Union was extinguished, it was no longer extant, it was null and void, it no longer existed. In short that it was a dead parrot and couldn’t squawk any more on the International stage.

      However, the two professors acted effectively as the UK Gov’s QC – they put the one side of the argument, while lightly touching on the other side with the sold purpose of dismissing it. If it came down to it, the Scottish Government would have their QC putting the case that the Treaty of Union WAS still in existence, and the correct method of Independence for Scotland was Separation, whereby both separatees have equal rights to the existing Union.

      That has dangers for the rUK however, as its treaties would ahve to be confirmed (as would Scotland’s), and its memberships would also ahve to be confirmed. Our secession is much more straightfoward for the rUK, which is why it wants that to happen.

      The fallback would be for both sides to go for dissolution, but for one the International community might not accept that, and secondly it opens a can of worms about what state both countries would revert to.

      Sorry abouot the length.

    322. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      3 September, 2015 at 11:25 am
      heedtracker
      I want your babies, do you think there’s a chance?

      OK! First we have to get permission from our YES cult leaders.

    323. Graeme Doig says:

      Clydebuilt @ 1.55

      What was that ‘summing up’ business all about? I’ve never noticed it before and i found it infuriating. Subsequently needed them to sum up what we’d missed, not what we did hear.

      Just coincidence about it being over a BBC question? Who knows? Had to take my tin hat off for a bit.

    324. yesindyref2 says:

      That above is why all the UK Gov’s following white papers talked about the “Continuing UK”, the BBC and other unionist media talked about “Continuing UK”. The purpose was proaganda, to drive “Continuing UK” deep into the psyche, to eliminate dispute and any alternative. I fought it every time on forums, as it is an unwarranted assumption.

      Scotland could allow the rUK to be the cUK – at a price.

    325. Glamaig says:

      Very OT – I propose that when we are independent we take the opportunity to call our country Caesar! just so we dont have to keep scrolling down to the bottom of the list of countries on internet forms 🙂

    326. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      @3:19

      Interesting.

      I had always seen Indy negotiations as being primarily about dividing assets and debt. However I can see from what you say that a big part could about splitting versus secession.

      It would suit rUK to be the continuing state. Last year, you could sense that was an assumption they were making,

      In negotiations, if that is the outcome they wish, then they will need to give Scotland something significant in compensation.

      Let’s get indyref2 won first, though 😉

    327. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath
      Yes, negotiations would or should go along with the means of our Independence as a basic starting point. If Scotland supports the rUK claim to be the cUK, then there is no dispute and that would just happen. But as Robert points out the UK is the result of a bipartite agreement, which means Scotland owns a share of all assets, all debts and liabilities, all memberships, all treaties, the BoE – and the currency.

      If Scotland is to voluntarily relinquish a share of any of these, then there must be a contra benefit on the balance sheet. In a sense, the ScotGov already allowd for that by making the debt share £60 or £70 billion less than a per capita share. But that was on the basis of a currency union (not something I want), so if the rUK denies that, then there’s a further account needed, a good few more billion.

      I would see Scotland taking no more than around £30-£40 billion of debt to allow the rUK to be the cUK, and that would give us a very very healthy debt to gdp ratio, one of the best in the EU apart from newer eastern members.

    328. Stoker says:

      Will Podmore wrote:
      “Dear Stoker, thank you for your thoughtful series of abusive and inaccurate insults – very revealing of your moral and intellectual level”

      No problem Sweet Cheeks, you’re welcome, any-time!

    329. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath
      Oh. I think the SNP / ScotGov need to be a lot more blunt and open in IndyRef2. In the first one they rightly encouraged a happy happy atmosphere, and that was what the wider YES was which I think impressed a lot of people. All us numpties being so enthusiastic and happy, laughing and crying.

      Setting this all out far more openly and bluntly though in IndyRef2 may well encourage more to vote YES this time, as it reflects on the financials, the economy, Scotland’s borrowing power – and currency.

    330. galamcennalath says:

      Glamaig says:

      I propose that when we are independent we take the opportunity to call our country Caesar!

      Best seat in the UN? Either between Afghanistan and Caesar!nia or between Saudi and Senegal.

    331. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Graeme Doig.

      FMQ’s can be seen here:-

      http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMfSH3HULOeoeEbxHkqF21A

    332. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      “Scotland owns a share of all assets”

      I seem to remember the total value of assets being the equivalent to a significant portion of the debt. UK assets approach a £trillion, perhaps. It includes some very valuable real estate abroad in the likes of New York, Washington, Paris, Hong Kong etc etc..

      Almost seems like rUK would take most assets, almost all debt and get continuing status. Scotland takes few assets, ~2% of UK debt, and begins afresh on most things. Done!

    333. Stoker says:

      Oh, and btw, ‘Will’, just to let you know, i also intend on calling you a liar from here-on-in unless you can show evidence of my “series of abusive and inaccurate insults” to you.

      In all my time on WOS i think i’ve posted responses to your guff on 2 (YES 2) occasions and if you’re going to denigrate us or our movement or Scottish Government unnecessarily and inaccurately then at least be prepared for the flak you deserve.

      You’ve been flapping yer pish since pishflappery began.
      So, hurry up liar, i want everyone to see your evidence.
      Quickly now, don’t keep the good folk of WOS waiting.

    334. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath
      Yes, sounds good to me too. It would be important to be seen to be done with agreement from both sides, Scotland would then be properly servicing our share of debt helping our credit agency ratings, and the rUK would be clear of any controversy. Which they know fine could drag on for years and years in the courts, with little to gain for them and much to lose – international status and even credit rating. The debt, after all, is in their name, and they accepted that to soothe market worries last September.

      Inerestingly I read from above postings that Tomkins has come out on the attack saying buildings belong to the UK (which is actually arrant nonsense – they go with, literally, the territory). So he in his way is firing the opening shots for Indy Ref 2, which means he knows it’s on its way, which means Mundell knows it’s on its way, which means UK Gov knows it’s on its way. None of them would be able to light a candle in the Intelligence world, even with a flamethrower..

    335. Graeme Doig says:

      Thanks Brian.

    336. Onwards says:

      Chic McGregor says:

      3 September, 2015 at 2:26 pm

      @Onwardrs
      “This recent poll is the best ever for independence support with a 9 point lead for YES. ”

      Fraid it isn’t, see for example, the ICM poll from June 29th 1998 on the attached leaflet. 56% Yes, 35% No, 9% DK.

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/43awtrxabajp4ta/IFMarchleafletinside.jpg?dl=0
      ———–

      Hi Chic,
      Thanks for that link.
      The recent poll is still the highest recorded with the actual referendum question.

      I found that 1998 ICM poll online, and it looks like the questions aren’t comparable. It uses a question that would be seen as biased now, without any timescale stated.

      “Do you agree that Scotland should become an independent country?”

      http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/1998_june_scotsman_scotland_opinion_poll.pdf

      The recent one is certainly the highest Ipsos Mori have ever recorded over the last 38 years, from a low of 14% in 1978. They have never been above 50% before.

      https://www.ipsos-mori.com/contactus/offices/scotland/indyref2014/polling/votingintention.aspx#gallery%5Bm%5D/0/

      And it uses the neutral referendum question for how voters would vote if there was a referendum tomorrow.

      What’s encouraging is the recent Edinburgh University survey showing around 70% think independence is inevitable sometime in the future.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/scotland-will-be-independent-one-day-say-70-of-scots.1078

    337. Graeme Doig says:

      Dr Jim and others

      Re Eck’s statement on faith. Just read article on BBC website re comments.

      He was in fact speaking of the ‘airy fairy spiritual’ faith which, incidentally, i have no problem with being Christian myself.

    338. Robert Peffers says:

      @Take Independence says: 3 September, 2015 at 12:13 am

      ” … Time will tell if you are correct I some how think that a lot of poeple wanted to vote yes but decided to vote No because of there financial circumstances like pensioners I need to make sure I get my wording right or I’ll be crucified I am not saying that pensioners where wrong voting No I just cant see how we can convince somone on a steady income to vote yes, when over two hundred thousand is a lot of poeple to convince in order to make up the numbers.”

      Strange that, Take Independence, You see I’m nearly into my eighties and have supported Scottish Independence since I was a schoolboy in 1946. I’m also an OAP with a UK MOD pension. What is more I’m disabled and thus need more than a few prescription medications.

      If anyone has something to lose, if what the unionist Establishment claim were in fact true, then it would be me. Yet I’m committed to Scottish independence.

      The reason is that I know the truth – which is this. Under both Scottish and English law, (English law applies also in Wales and N. Ireland). all insurance schemes, including National Insurance, is a legal contract between the insured and the insurer.

      Thus the UK Government is legally obliged to honour all state pensions, no matter in what country the pensioner is resident. Barring my late wife and children my entire family, including my father and mother, emigrated to Australia in 1962. Mum and Dad got their UK pension until they died and my sister still gets her UK state pension and her UK nurse’s UK pension to this day.

      Those members of the Unionist campaign, including Gordon Brown, who made such threats should be prosecuted under Scottish law which states it is a criminal offence to threaten anyone with menace in Scotland. This law is the same one that makes it illegal for private people or companies to clamp, or otherwise fine, vehicle owners who park on private land in Scotland.

      Yet English based companies still operate such parking schemes in Scotland. Yesterday I received a demand for £70 for overstaying a stated time period in a shopping precinct. No matter that their demand threatened to increase the costs if I do not pay up within 28 days and to pass on the fine to a debt collecting agency.

      There were other illegal things about their demands but that is by the by. If I pass this demand on to the police with a complaint the company may find itself in the dock charged with demanding money with menace.

      The moral of this story is that you must never trust apparently official demands for money from English companies, or UK governments, who either do not recognise Scottish Law or who profess not to know them from motives of sheer corporate greed.

    339. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Well typed Robert Peffers! (@6.45pm.)

    340. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      O/T – Ann from Team YES Bus – could you go to ‘off-topic’ and leave your email address in a post?

      Pete wants to give you your flag poles before the 19th. Doesn’t know how to get in touch with you.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic

    341. Chic McGregor says:

      @Onwards
      “The recent poll is still the highest recorded with the actual referendum question.

      I found that 1998 ICM poll online, and it looks like the questions aren’t comparable. It uses a question that would be seen as biased now, without any timescale stated.

      “Do you agree that Scotland should become an independent country?”

      Poll questions evolve. That one is more similar to the actual question eventually used (“Should Scotland be an independent country?”) than most.

      The presage for the question was “In a referendum on independence for Scotland, how would you vote?” which is pretty unambigously about voting intention.

      On unspecified timing, well it was not specified in the actual question either, it would have been strange if it had been.

      It should also be pointed out that the indyref2 question, if events this week are anything to go by, is likely to have a response of ‘Remain in the UK’ or ‘ Leave the UK’. Does that imply that the one used in indyref1 was invalid?

      Ho hum. The reality is that poll question minutae matters far more in a poll and therefore to pollsters than it does to the voters in an actual election or referendum.

      After a long campaign, people’s only consideration to question wording is in regard to making sure they identify enough of it to vote the way they have been persuaded by the vying propaganda. Whereas, confronted by a sudden and unexpected poll question they are much more inclined to look for ‘catches’ in the question and respond accordingly.

      For many years, from the start of the Scottish Parliament until the banking crisis, polls which asked a straight yes or no question on independence rarely departed much from an average of 54% Yes (neglecting DKs).

      It is one of the triumphs of the unionist establishment that they pretty much managed to keep that fact hidden.

      Journalists, unionist politicians and media pundits were forever telling people that support for independence has never been more than ‘around 30%’.

      Instead, polls which were highly dubious because they reported on multi option question formats and had substantive wordage modifiers like ‘in Europe’ were quoted instead – ad nuaseam often with the bogie word ‘separate’ thrown in for good measure.

      I even read a transcript of an MSP briefing where they were informed of only the lower multi question and heavily nuanced result from a poll in which the same respondents were also asked the straight yes/no question. The straight yes/no response, which they were not given, was again around 54% for yes and the multi option question ‘pro indy’ support, which they were given, was down around 30%.

      Even our SNP MSPs were unaware of those results, or at least seemingly so from their non challenging of the 30% claims on innumerable TV programmes where they could easily have done so.
      (At least until 2006 when IF sent each MSP an email on the subject).

      There was a real drop in support due to the spin and lies of those two Scottish patriots Brown and Darling at the time of the bank crisis. Even now, most people are completely unaware that the ‘good English bank’ Barclays clandestinely received a bigger bail out than RBS and HBOS combined at the time.

      We have recovered from that but it has taken some years.

    342. Onwards says:

      @Chic McGregor

      I think the wording can definitely make a difference.
      I remember thinking it would be brilliant if we could get away with the question, “Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country ?”
      That option, on its own, gives the impression that most other people agree with that too.

      ———–
      It should also be pointed out that the indyref2 question, if events this week are anything to go by, is likely to have a response of ‘Remain in the UK’ or ‘ Leave the UK’. Does that imply that the one used in indyref1 was invalid?
      ———-

      No – because it was the Electoral Commission themselves that suggested it.

      There may be some demands for a different question if we have a second referendum, but a precedent has been set.

      With regard to the EU question, I had a look at the Electoral Commission site and the general opinion was that the yes/no question was unsuitable because a ‘Yes’ response was unusually used for the ‘no-change’ option.

      Normally a yes/no survey question asks for a verdict on any change that is proposed – so the original question could be seen as seeking a YES answer.

    343. manandboy says:

      Westminster knows that Scotland will remain in the so called Union only as long as it can be ‘persuaded’ not to leave. Historically, England has either kept Scotland in the dark or invented a false narrative. It is certain that if Scots had known the truth, as Westminster knows it, since, say, the end of WW2, then the Union would have ended long ago.

      Like an abused wife, who has never wronged her husband, but never knew how wealthy she was, nor that he only married her for business reasons, Scotland still chooses to believe that the Union is good for her.

      But we are where we are, which means that we are all at different stages of the journey to the truth about the Union.
      And Westminster intends to keep it that way. For this, the BBC is vital, and McQuarrie & Boothman indispensable.

      Slavery hasn’t been abolished ; it’s all around us. We just can’t see it. Two million No voters proves that.

      Two million who believe the Big Westminster Lie that Yes voters only want to destroy the UK. That’s how England describes ending a one-sided abusive marriage founded on exploitation. Curiously, more women voted No than men.

    344. Will Podmore says:

      So manandboy insults the majority of his fellow-countrymen by calling them slaves …

    345. K1 says:

      Will, stop sniping on the side lines, it’s petty.

    346. Fred says:

      Will Podmore, Bitchcraft a speciality!

    347. Will Podmore says:

      Did manandboy insult the majority of his fellow-countrymen by calling them slaves? Yes or no?

    348. K1 says:

      Insult is in the eye of the beholder Will and ‘context’ is everything. Also a better term is fellow-countrypeople, just for the postmodern take 😉

    349. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Or fellow-countrynonpeople.

      What about the squirrels?

    350. K1 says:

      Hmm…fellow-countrysentientbeings.

      All inclusive?

    351. CameronB Brodie says:

      ‘Mon the microbes.

    352. Will Podmore says:

      K1 writes, “Insult is in the eye of the beholder.”
      So if manandboy called you a slave, what would you behold? A compliment? Very postmodern of you.
      But if an Englishman called you a slave, would you not behold that as an insult? Very subjective of you.
      Double standards? Surely not.



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