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Wings Over Scotland

The glass of news

Posted on November 17, 2016 by

Can be half-full or half-empty. Neither of the stories below is untrue.



Readers can make their own judgements on the Scottish Daily Mail’s agenda.

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342 to “The glass of news”

  1. Tartan Tory says:

    Unemployment down. Employment down. Both (allegedly) true.

    The only viable explaination is that almost 40k working-age people have left the country, or the figures are a fudge.

  2. Jim Watson says:

    I am still trying to work out how employment numbers falling has any bearing on immigration, house prices or Princess Diana, the triad of interests to daily mail readers…

    On a practical note, is 25,000 really a “slump”…

  3. Macart says:

    Wait! No, don’t tell me…

    They’re beyond repetitive and predictable now. They’re also not very self aware or conscious of cause and effect.

    It is the Heil after all.

  4. Grouse Beater says:

    Tartan Tory: “or the figures are a fudge.”

    The Daily Mail and the entire Scotiaphobe brigade are fudge.

  5. David Mills says:

    We could have 40K on sanctions in September?
    Shell reported as centralising suspend Mail spin

  6. Capella says:

    Scottish Daily Mail, daily dose of bile. Do either of these articles relate employment to Westminster control of energy and taxation policy?

    Hayley Millar of Reporting Scotland made a documentary on the oil industry and what it meant to Scotland. “Truth, Lies and Oil” made in 2012 I think. Interesting how little BBC journalists appear to know about something they have reported on for 40 years.

    This was made before the drop in oil price and before the referendum. So a bit more objective than they are now.

  7. Marcia says:

    If you read the Daily Hate Mail or Express you must be a half empty person or you soon will be.

  8. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Anyone can see the Daily Heil and its whoppers a mile off, do Scotland down at all times and just lie and lie, funny we never hear about the UK and its failing economy from them do we? But its ok to denigrate and lie about Scotlands economy you scummy rag isnt it? Take your anti Scotland/SNP Government agenda and get out of Scotland!

  9. Mike Lothian says:

    I think you’re confusing the Daily Hate with the Diana Express

  10. thrawn says:

    Don’t you get tired of writing all these “SHOCK HORROR..some newspapers don’t support SNP or independence!!” stories….or is your agenda that you wish every single media outlet to slavishly and uncritically follow the SNP party line?

  11. INDEPENDENT says:

    Doh! Michael Blackley, i.e. Thick as Pig Sh*t or a deliberate liar??

    Also I take it all the farmers who took advantage of the cheap FOREIGN student labour all summer, (you know them’s that don’t like JOHNNY FOREIGNERS!), assumed that they would not go back to finish their studies?? They were all really scrounging migrants.

    Add in a few new pensioners / retirees and voila you have the magic 40,000.

    It’s not rocket science.

    Obviously to difficult for the Beeb or the Hacks to fathom out though.

    As I said DOH!

    You really couldn’t make it up.

  12. Breeks says:

    No change then…

    Propaganda dominant at both ends of the same piece of string.

    I connect neither with the truth.

  13. Bob Mack says:

    As always it depends what impression you want to convey.

    I am just curious how the Daily Mail found out the SNP obtained all the tools they need for actually running an economy, whilst we have all been sitting here demanding those very things. Strange.

  14. Smallaxe says:


    “You really couldn’t make it up”

    They can, and do.

    Peace Always

  15. HandandShrimp says:

    There can be a number of reasons for economic inactivity not least retirement. However, if people are not claiming benefits and are not looking for work what do the Mail suggest…cattle trucks and Arbeit macht frei?

    The Scottish unemployment numbers are slightly better than the UKs so I suppose the opposition and the Wail have to moan about something. The thing is when Scotland’s total number in employment was higher than the UKs and the unemployment worse which do you think they highlighted then 🙂

    Don’t advertise in the Daily Racist – you know it makes sense.

  16. Brian Fleming says:

    Say 40,000 people leave the labour market for whatever reason (into full-time study, retirement, off the books while looking after the kids at home, whatever) while the economy sheds 25,000 jobs. So lo and behold, there are 25,000 less in employment at the same time as the unemployment rate goes down. Then you choose your spin, positive or SNP Bad, and run with it. Simple.

  17. Gullane No 4 says:

    I like the last line……’lagging behind rUK’, aye a whole 0.1%

  18. Oscar Taime says:

    Why are they even producing separate figures for Scotland.

    Don’t they keep telling us that a totally different vote, for Brexit say, in one “region” can be ignored because we voted as a single country?

  19. Bob Mack says:

    It rather reminds me of those click bait articles you see on the front of magazines

    ” My dog bit a man”—– only to find down the page it was because the man kicked it.

  20. heedtracker says:

    “The UK government’s Scottish Secretary David Mundell said: “It is good news that unemployment continues to fall in Scotland.

    “But with Scotland’s employment rates now lagging behind the rate of the UK and economic inactivity on the rise, these figures should be a concern to the Scottish government.”

    Christ I had no idea the Fluffster’s name is David. I thought it was Fluffie on his passport, BRITISH passport.

  21. Cloggins says:

    I am always astonished how British journo’s seem to have no concept of economic figures, state structures, democratic processes, macro-economy, basic calculus, backgrounds, abstractions – or anything else that would qualify them to write on matters that matter. We see serious flaws in what used to be serious papers and only a nodding relation to reality for the Andrex press.
    Coupled to a notorious inability to understand foreign languages or cultures, this leads to jawdropping results like the ones at hand.

  22. Dorothy Devine says:

    Thrawn , I take it you are being facetious ,at the very least you cannot be serious as it is patently obvious that the media of Scotland is well past even vaguely nodding at truth.

  23. Ken500 says:

    The UK Oil tax is 40%. (When the price had fallen) Disproportionate (discriminatory) of all other industries in the UK. Discriminatory tax/tarriffs on Scottish industry and enterprise. Thousands of Oil & Gas sector jobs have been lost in Scotland (UK). If the the tax was lowered, (when the price is low) there would be an increase in jobs in Scotland (UK). Scotland would have near full employment. The balance of payments would go down. Less imported, untaxed, fracked US Gas etc. The deficit and the debt would go down. Scotland would be more prosperous and more equal with good skilled jobs. It is not an either or.The sectors are not mutually exclusive. Until there are alternatives. Renewables are also majority supported. Electric cars are 4 times cheaper to run. Electric car production are subsidised to help expansion.

    The Trump Organisation in Scotland is a good employer. Above average pay rates. £9+ for 18 year olds plus. Plus really great tips. An opportunity to meet premier sports people etc. for those interested in Sports. More remuneration for experienced skilled staff. Plus skilled training programmes. Good working conditions. People want to work there. A prestigious Development. Beautifully laid out and we’ll run. Trump has invested £Millions in Scotland. Golfing holidays/tourism have increased 100%. Visitors/tourism will now increase.

    If Trump can stop illegal wars. He has done the world a favour. His family are unassuming decent folk. They come in and out Aberdeen Airport on ordinary flights with no fuss. They are hardworking. Polite and pleasant to everyone they meet. Engage everyone in conversation and try to work with people. The drive ordinary (small) cars and are comfortable, but not flash. They have some curious shooting traits. Sit in someone’s chair out of place, but are told off because of it.

    The Trump Development is not complete because of Scotland’s planning laws. In Scotland you can’t build anywhere. Necessity strict Planning Laws. In the US States you can build everywhere. A small number of opportunist, sleekit, deceiving undemocratic Greens and locals opposed the Development. Trying to make money and cheap publicity opposing the Development and wasting £Millions of public money.

    The Development was supported by a majority of the locals, region and the rest of Scotland. All business interests, tourism groups and Chambers of Commerce. All political Parties except the Greens. Alex Salmond supported his constituency. Behaving impeccable in their interest. Opposition to the wind turbines in the Bay were a diversion. Trump jnr stated that fact. The Development could get back on track, when the economic climate improves.

    Trump is not in Federal Gov in isolation. There are 535 ? Other elected delegates in Congress. 435 in the Senate which needs a 2/3 majority. The Republicans do not have that. 100 in the House of Representative. 2 from each State. 1/3 are elected every two years. There will be 1/3 of elections to the House of Representatives 18 months after Trump is installed. People can vote against if they want. The Republicans has a 53 to 47 majority – 6 in the House of Representative. That could change. A third will be up for election in 18 months time. Check and balances. Legislation take time to get through.

    It is (individual) States Law that affect most Americans day to day lives. Welfare administration, policing, medical care , schooling etc. That is paid for privately or through insurance. Or public provision/subscription/charity for less well off. Means tested. Philanthropy.

  24. James Westland says:


    No. What we want to see is fairness and balanced journalism thats all. What we are getting from the right wing unionist press is a daily dose of hatred bile lies and vile propaganda. They dont even attempt to present a balanced case

    If the Scottish Govt screws up, then , yes, go ahead and report it. But do so with a bit of journalistic integrity

    The way things are with the MSM, even if they DID report a real actual bad news story about the SNP / Scottish Gov, it would be hard to tell that it was actual news and not just more yoon right wing hate filled propaganda

    The MSM are beneath contempt. Newspapers should be sold in black wrappers from behind a screen, like porn. And buying these filthy tabloids should carry the same degree of embarassment and shame.

  25. Andrew McLean says:

    I am a nerd, politically speaking, I get the press release from ONS, amongst others so I read this earlier on in the week, and thought how can they spin this to SNP Bad?

    its got graphs and everything.

    Main points
    For the 3 months ending September 2016, the highest employment rate in the UK was in the South East (78.0%) and the lowest was in Northern Ireland (69.9%). Compared with April to June 2016, the employment rate estimates showed a range of reasonably large increases and decreases for the regions and countries of the UK.

    For the 3 months ending September 2016, the highest unemployment rate in the UK was in the North East (6.1%) and the lowest was in the South East (3.6%). Compared with April to June 2016, the unemployment rate estimates are showing a few reasonably large changes, both increases and decreases, for the regions of the UK. The unemployment rate for London at 5.6% is at the lowest level since comparable records began in 1992.

    For October 2016, the highest Claimant Count rate in the UK was in the North East (4.1%) and the lowest was in the South East (1.3%). Compared with September 2016, the majority of regions saw no change in the Claimant Count rate. The exceptions were Northern Ireland, which saw a decrease of 0.1 percentage point and the West Midlands and the North East, which both increased by 0.1 percentage point.

    For the 3 months ending September 2016, the highest economic inactivity rate in the UK was in Northern Ireland (25.8%) and the lowest was in the South East (19.0%). The largest change in the economic inactivity rate, compared with the same period last year, was in Northern Ireland, which decreased by 1.9 percentage points.

    Between March 2016 and June 2016, the largest increase in workforce jobs in the UK was in London at 54,000. The largest decrease was in the North West at 15,000.

    In June 2016, the region with the highest proportion of workforce jobs in the service sector was London at 91.4%, which had decreased by 0.1 percentage points since March 2016. Wales had the highest proportion of jobs in the production sector at 13.2%.

    The highest average actual weekly hours worked, for the 12 months ending June 2016, was in London at 33.5 hours and lowest in the North East, Yorkshire and The Humber, the South West and Scotland, all at 31.3 hours. For full-time workers, it was highest in London at 38.1 hours and for part-time workers it was highest in Northern Ireland at 16.9 hours.

  26. Ken500 says:

    Osbourne deliberately put up the Oil & Gas tax/tarriffs in collusion with the CEO’s of UK registered Oil & Gas companies. Damaging the the Companies and the economy. It is an offence under UK business Law for CEO’s to deliberately or intentionally damage their companies and the economy. They have a social responsibility. Affecting share price and open information Sectet insider dealing is classed as fraud. Punishable with massive company fines or prison. Cameron/Osbourne/D. Alexander should be charged and put in prison. Along with Farague and most of the rest of them. Illegal laundering public money and embezzlement. Bush/Blair/Brown/Obama/Clinton. Illegal wars killing and maiming thousands.

  27. CameronB Brodie says:

    Thrawn rhymes with prawn, which is nice. The rhyme that is, not sure about the other.

  28. Andrew McLean says:

    Remember when talking of statistics, the old adage, Lies, dammed lies, and Carmichael, sorry I mean statistics.

    So when Muneling along says this,
    “economic inactivity on the rise, these figures should be a concern to the Scottish government.

    It is worth looking at the figures and how economic activity is defined.
    “The main economically inactive groups are students, people looking after family and home, long-term sick and disabled, temporarily sick and disabled, retired people and discouraged workers.”

    So he is attacking stay at home mums, the sick, the disabled, and retired pensioners, workshy slackers the lot of them, in fact when next he is invited to an old folks home, he should encourage them to work, the construction industry is crying out for workers, Betty 82, frail and arthritic could be “persuaded” to hump a few lengths of timber around the site!Jean 34 could swaddle Tom 3 months on her back, for gods sake the do it in the rice fields!

    Caring sharing Conservatism, good for you, good for the economic future of the Fatherland, REMEMBER SLAVES WORK SETS YOU FREE!

  29. heedtracker says:


    Heinrich Himmler was a chicken farmer.

    But all that nice fascism aside, the real blight on Scots and the Scottish economy is the money supply in the economy and lack of it. For decades, not Scots oil and gas revenue flows over Scotland, directly in to the Treasury, the City and building giant corps like BP and Shell, who then built up the giant pension fund foundations of the City. Its great if you have one, a big pension that is.

    Economies like Norway and Germany took a different economic route, keeping their money supply directly in their economies. Subsequently, SME that actually make things have boomed in these countries. Although now Germany suffers a massive skilled worker shortage.

    Its simple economics, low money supply, low economic activity. Our chums in the south know all of this and its why London and the south east enjoy a super heating economy, paid for by the not Scots oil and gas revenue.

    Meanwhile, tory BBC led hackdom continues to explain to Scots how shite they are at running the Scottish economy.

  30. J Galt says:

    “Scottish Ministers Get a Grip”

    What of?

    “Scottish Ministers” have virtually no control over the Economy!

  31. there is the old tried and tested method used by Westminster Governments over the last fifty years and that is to place the unemployed on so called ‘training courses’ or get them into further education.

    That way they don’t appear on the unemployment stats

  32. Andrew McLean says:

    Actually these stay at home mums are not doing it right, ONS yesterday.

    “Women born in 1970 who completed their childbearing in 2015 had an average 1.91 children per woman, fewer than their mother’s generation (born 1943) who had 2.24 children. Childlessness was higher for the 1970 cohort (17%) than for the 1943 cohort (12%)”.

    Come on girls get reproducing! its for the Fatherland!

  33. J Galt says:


    “Heinrich Himmler was a chicken farmer”

    And a damned good one – egg laying rates increased enormously once the firing squads were introduced!

    He should have stuck with it.

  34. J Galt says:


    “Heinrich Himmler was a chicken farmer”

    And a damned good one – egg-laying rates increased enormously once the firing squads were introduced!

    He should have stuck with it.

  35. jimnarlene says:

    @ Thrawn, fair, truthful and unbiased reportage is all we want. No idea what your agenda is though, if pushed I’d say it was trolling.

  36. Artyhetty says:


    “The UK government’s Scottish Secretary David Mundell said: “It is good news that unemployment continues to fall in Scotland”.

    So not just Mundell, but David Mundell.

    We usually only hear Nicola Sturgeon called Sturgeon, they cannot bring themselves to say her first name.

    It would be interesting to see figures on youth employment, the ScotGov have been working hard to
    keep kids in education (education maintenance allowance) and putting apprenticeships in place etc. So it should look better than england, who scrapped the EMA, and huge charge tuition fees while removing bursaries for the poorest students.

    As has been pointed out, one minute we are a basket case called Scotland with a ‘nationalist’ admin in power. The next we are all one big family, so what rUKok decides north britain gets.

  37. Andrew McLean says:

    OK ONS is it?

    In Scotland the ONS has reported today 17 November 2016 that between 2004 and 2006, (Labour) the total investment in Research and development has risen from a starting point in 2004 of £430 million to £460 million in 2006 to when the SNP took over. In 2007 till 2015 it increased by 100s of Millions per year to £871 Million in 2015.

    SNP Better for Scotland, SNP Better for R&D, SNP Better for You.

    You wont see that in any newspaper!

  38. heedtracker says:

    J Galt says:
    17 November, 2016 at 12:22 pm

    “Heinrich Himmler was a chicken farmer”

    The horror that is Trump is interesting to watch in Scotland, if only because he’s much like big oil and our chums in the Treasury and City.

    Trump scopes a valuable Scottish asset, golf and scenery, moves in with promise of good times ahead, pays a few lucky Scots peanuts for unskilled labour, trousers giant profit, much of it funnelled out of Scotland and off to Trump’s bank account.

    Trump’s even piled on the ongoing planet toryboy, “ban the evil windmills of our Scotland” campaign too, despite every single stat produced showing how wrong toryboys are on renewable energy and climate change.

  39. One_Scot says:

    The day we get tired of pointing out the Yoon medias lies and manipulation of information for their own political agenda, is the day we give up, lie down and accept being dumped on by Westminster is all we’re good for.

    Or in other words, no.

  40. orri says:

    The question is who exactly is telling whom to get a grip? The article itself doesn’t say but certainly the only non-SNP MPs or SMPs seem to be Conservatives.

  41. heedtracker says:

    Just heard Ligger Neil on his daily BBC party political broadcast on behalf of planet toryboy, explain to another toryboy that Trump told him that he would force the EU to give the UK a great Brexit deal.

    Its going to be great! The Ligger looks like he had really good time in the brave new Trump USA though. Cat got the cream smirks all round that BBC studio.

  42. Fred says:

    There’s a demo’ outside the Parliament right now on behalf of tenant farmers about to be evicted on Arran by their laird Charles Fforde. The details are related by Lesley Riddoch in todays National & apparently the folk due for eviction’s own MSP, Kenny Gibson, comes in for some stick on this. This is a shocking business in this day & age. Landowners & their lawyers have undermined tenant farmers rights here. If these folk were crofters they would be fully protected & the laird would be told to fuck off. Time the chinless-wonders got the green welly up the jacksie. Anybody know Kenny Gibson’s take on this?

  43. Smallaxe says:

    I won’t be drawn
    by you dear Thrawn
    Och ok then I will

    I know not really
    What you are
    Just thick or maybe

    A shill

    Or maybe you are not a shill
    you may mean no harm at all
    I might be very wrong dear Thrawn
    But I think you’re a Troll

  44. JGedd says:

    Thrawn usually haunts Bella Caledonia threads. Seems travelling doesn’t always improve the mind/set.

  45. CameronB Brodie says:

    Andrew McLean
    I did inquire about the Wings dating service.

    We need to rebuild our community by having more children and promoting proper values, good health and strengthening our links with the soil. Oops, did that sound a bit NAZI British nationalist. 🙂

    That’s the thing, the above sentiment sounds reasonably benign, if a bit cliched. In fact, that’s “blood and sol” ideology that is. It becomes imperialist/nationalist colonialism when you start exporting that belief system and resulting social structure on others, whilst retaining ownership and control over the ideology and the benefits of the production of the dominated ‘others’.

    The original version of “blood and soil” nationalism (early contemporary British nationalism) was born in the Home Counties of Victorian England, largely as a response to the growing demand for social reform that had been liberated by the French Revolution, as well as the threat posed by growing international competition to Britain’s imperial might. Contemporary British nationalism could be interpreted as the progenitor of NAZI ideology and was intended as a means of mobilising the masses behind patriotism towards the Establishment.

    Scottish nationalism is a bit different, innit.

    Put the master’s tools down.

  46. TD says:


    You miss the point completely. We don’t mind if most (all?) of the MSM does not support the SNP. They have the right to express their view (with the exception of the broadcast media which are meant to be neutral). We are after all democrats and support free speech. But when they tell lies, mislead, distort, misrepresent, then of course we will all do our best to point that out. It’s not a case of “shock horror”, it’s a case of “the lies are continuing – let’s keep pointing it out in case their lies gain traction.”

    Nobody does this better than Stuart Campbell so if you don’t like it, this is not the site to visit. But if you don’t like lies being exposed, perhaps you should consider just what it is that you believe in.

  47. Lenny Hartley says:

    The evictions are due to badly written legislation by previous Labour/liberal administration.
    If Kenny is been targeted it’s just a case of SNP bad.
    However having said that, the current Government should take responsibility for the Lab/lib screw up and compensate the people affected.
    I have seen their farm and Falcon breeding facility and a lot of work has gone into it, it will be very difficult to replicate elsewhere without distress to the Birds.

  48. Dr Jim says:

    The “Free Press” must be allowed to lie and invent
    otherwise there would be no reason for their existence, other than to report the actual news

    And we can’t be having that can we?

  49. CamernoB Brodie says:

    P.S. It was Alfred Milner, 1st Viscount Milner (Fabian), who thought socialism the most suitable vehicle for spreading British nationalist ideology.

    Alfred Milner, 1st Viscount Milner planned and implemented British civilian concentration/labour camps during the second Boer War.

  50. Desimond says:

    Watching Mundell on his phone during PMQs was a sad state of affairs…

    Thankfully this made me smile..

    It(Brexit) is heartbreaking. It’s sad. It’s frustrating. It also is a kick in the teeth to Scotland! Scotland voted to remain part of the UK and part of that was being part of the EU. If I were Scotland right now, I would have a referendum, I would leave the United Kingdom, I would remain part of the European Union. – Neil Gaiman

  51. Andrew McLean says:

    CamernoB Brodie

    Yes someone on off topic proclaimed his desire to mate recently,

    I blame the Ruth Davidson “you name it I will mount it” party.
    Scotland In union, I thought was a undemocratic assemblage of lonely old men, now I understand, its fervent desire to see all of Scotland in flagrante delicto, and that is not a new range of Nardini’s Raspberry Ripple.

  52. Robert Peffers says:

    @thrawn says: 17 November, 2016 at 10:57 am:

    “Don’t you get tired of writing all these “SHOCK HORROR..some newspapers don’t support SNP or independence!!” stories….or is your agenda that you wish every single media outlet to slavishly and uncritically follow the SNP party line?”


    Don’t you ever get tired of trolling on independence blogs?

    It is yet another sure sign of sheer desperation as is so evident in the Westminster Establishment meltdown?

    Fact is our efforts are bearing positive results while you, and the rest of the Yoon Loons, get ever more desperate by the minute.

    The Westminster Establishment is quite obviously in meltdown and panic mode. The general movement in Scotland may be slow but it is all moving towards independence.


    Wait for the big bang, Thrawn, for that is why you are here on an independence blog and we are not posting on Yoon Loon blogs.

    We can, and do, back up all our claims with either facts or logical conclusions and everything from Westminster is out and out lies and we can prove it.

    Here’s a few wee samples – lets see you refute any of them.

    The United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms.

    There are only two Kingdoms that are legally signatories on the Treaty of Union. It is thus a Kingdom and never has been a country.

    The Scottish Legal system, agreed by the Treaty of Union to remain independent in perpetuity, is based upon the people of Scotland being legally sovereign. So Westminster’s claims of sovereignty are lies.

    The Westminster Establishment claim that, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom”, has absolutely no basis in either law or fact. Yet it, in itself, proves the point that the United Kingdom is indeed NOT a country but is what its title claims it to be, a bipartite Kingdom.

    Yet Westminster is running the United Kingdom as four countries with only the country of England ran as the United Kingdom.

    It funds itself directly as the United Kingdom with United Kingdom funding and legislates, specifically for the country of England, by English Law.

    It is thus an illegal setup that in effect is the country of England lording it over the other three United Kingdom countries and demoting, its only actual legal partner in the United Kingdom, as just another England annexed country like Wales and N. Ireland.

    So there you go, Thrawn. Let us hear your proofs that those claims are not correct? I will not be holding my breath.

  53. Hamish100 says:


    re Kenny Gibson and what his view is on what is happening on Arran re tenancy

    No Idea. Why don’t you email him and then get back to us all?

  54. CameronB Brodie says:

    Andrew McLean
    Admittedly I’m a bit of an animal. 🙂

  55. Luigi says:

    O/T Donald Trump has just banned anyone serving in his administration from working as a paid lobyist for five years after they leave. The politicos in WC are going apeshit. He wants purists, not troughers.

    As Michael Moore put it so eloquently:

    “The enemy of my enemy”

  56. McBoxheid says:

    Andrew McLean says:
    17 November, 2016 at 11:41 am

    I am a nerd, politically speaking, I get the press release from ONS, amongst others so I read this earlier on in the week, and thought how can they spin this to SNP Bad?

    You have scroll all the way to section 7 before Scotland gets a mention. If you are still awake and feeling brave at that point, you can scroll even further down to see a really inpiring graph too! Delightful!

  57. Breeks says:

    What troubles me isn’t this usual shit in the papers or on the BBC.

    Where is the positive momentum which will bind us to the EU? Just after Brexit, now what, 6 months ago, I said we would need summits held to keep European figureheads and “big hitters” visible in Scotland, and keep control of the pro European agenda precisely so we don’t sit for hours contemplating the detritus which floats around a stagnant pond.

    The moment Independence became tied to Brexit, we forfeited the initiative, and right enough here we are Six months down the line, but not a single step further forward, and still loitering around the starting blocks waiting for Theresa May to run home and fetch her gym shoes.

    I don’t want to be critical of the SNP, because they already get it from all directions, even if 95% of the rhetoric is fabricated nonsense. But I get this horrible feeling the SNP’s Brexit portfolio is just as thin and short of ideas as Theresa May’s Brexit folder. Please somebody, tell me I’m wrong.

    Following the Brexit result, which revealed a healthy core of opinion in Scotland for staying in the EU, what has been done to consolidate that opinion? What has been done to explore what Europe can physically do to assist Scotland in a material way to resist the corrosive media and propaganda? It is dangerous to assume our support for Europe is some obsidian edifice which can endure whatever is thrown at it. It needs to be looked after and nurtured.

    Where is the narrative about what Scotland is going to do after Theresa May finally presses the Brexit button?

    The SNP seems satisfied to have wrong footed the Unionist media by leaving pro Independence rhetoric significant by its absence. Well, fine. Jolly good. But can somebody explain to me how we now kick start pro Independence momentum without actually mentioning the “i” word?

    I could make a list of opportunities which the pro Independence movement has frankly missed, but it wouldn’t be helpful. But to illustrate what I mean, remember just after the YES vote was defeated, all the Unionist parties were committed to more powers for Scotland, but none had really articulated what that meant? To me, a snap plebiscite would have seized the “Vow” initiative away from the Unionist victory and stolen their thunder by having the Scottish electorate define which additional powers were to be devolved. Nothing happened of course, and without any sustained campaign to capture the initiative, the issues were diluted to meaningless politicking said in the heat of the moment and fudged to deliver nothing. We had a real opportunity to seize the initiative but did nothing.

    I feel the same way now. Brexit has put the ball at our feet again, and we have European players to the left and right, and up ahead but well on side, all screaming for the ball.. and we dither. We sit on the ball. We think the ref is going to whistle. We slow the game down to a crawl.

    “Things” are going for us; Brexit, EU antipathy towards Westminster, global markets cold shouldering Brexit deals until the international protocols are adhered to, the Vow a complete fabrication, the £ in turmoil, uncertainty about the UK rife, and every promise of 2014 broken or exposed as a downright lie. A little bit of initiative goes a long way to make safe the gains we can draw from all this…. but we wait.

    But if we wait, and wait, and wait, do nothing, … that lost initiative mutates into something else, a dangerous inertia which gets ever harder to shift once wider events become less favourable for us.

    It isn’t the faith I doubt, it isn’t the confidence, it isn’t that I think somebody is better suited to the task…. It’s the game plan. Why are we sitting on the ball and looking as equally glum about the future as Theresa May is? We do have our tunnel dug, false papers forged, uniforms turned into civilian clothes, and our map of the border. It’s all done, we’re ready. We are getting out of this… aren’t we???

  58. Flower of Scotland says:

    @Lenny Hartley 1.18pm

    Lesley Riddoch wrote a piece in the National today about the Tenant Farmers. To me it seemed very muddled with an SNP bad there somehow!

  59. Dr Jim says:

    Donald Trump, a giant liar, a bully, a sexual molester of women, climate change denier, delusions of grandeur, Nazi style policy pronouncements

    He’ll fit right in at Westminster, watch them kiss his Arse

  60. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Breeks

    “Where is the narrative about what Scotland is going to do after Theresa May finally presses the Brexit button?”

    I think the SNP are on the case. Presently they are testing the national appetite of Scotland via ‘The National Survey’. This has only 2 weeks left to run and then, I imagine, will be analysed to shape the SNP’s approach to Brexit/Indy. The SNP have to wait to hear back fromt he people of this country as to their view of where the country should now go.

    Things ARE progressing even if they cannot yet be fully seen.

    For those who have not yet compeleted The National Syrvey, here’s the link:

    Two million surveys targetted by 30th November.

  61. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cloggins says: 17 November, 2016 at 11:29 am:

    “I am always astonished how British journo’s seem to have no concept of economic figures, state structures, democratic processes, macro-economy, basic calculus, backgrounds, abstractions – or anything else that would qualify them to write on matters that matter.”

    Och! Cloggins, Have you not worked out yet that these, “Journalists”(sic), have learned the correct spelling of all the words in the English dictionary, (and only a few), have learned how to properly punctuate and avoid split infinitive. Trouble is none of them ever learnt to comprehend what the words actually mean.

    Thus, in their closed minds they are not telling lies for to them such terms as, “Great Britain, Britain, The Country, The United Kingdom, The Union and England are all mutually synonymous each to the other.

    Their numeracy skills are in no way better than their literacy skills in that they nearly all leaned basic arithmetic but not the more complex arithmetic skills, (like finding a total if there are more than two whole numbers or if the two whole numbers have more than four digits between them).

    As for anything with algebraic annotation they tend to interpret these as words and, of course, we know they cannot comprehend word meanings anyway.

    As for deductions drawn from any other forms of mathematics, over and above, basic arithmetic, ranks along with their knowledge of such languages as Archi: –

    (see –

    As we say in Scotland. “Ye canna mak a silk purse frae a soo’s lug”.

    ” … We see serious flaws in what used to be serious papers and only a nodding relation to reality for the Andrex press.
    Coupled to a notorious inability to understand foreign languages or cultures, this leads to jawdropping results like the ones at hand.”

    Methinks you may be crediting these congenital idiots with much more formal education than the, “Journalists”, (sic), actually warrant.

  62. McBoxheid says:

    Tartan Tory says:
    17 November, 2016 at 10:34 am

    Unemployment down. Employment down. Both (allegedly) true.

    The only viable explaination is that almost 40k working-age people have left the country, or the figures are a fudge.

    Or students have returned to university as well as seasonal EU workers returning to their own countries after having completed their summer contracts, especially the ones that work in the tourist industry.

    It could be of course, that people from the EU are taking up secure employment elsewhere in the EU, because the Tories haven’t given any sort of job assusance since brexit.

    Finally, it might just be another case of SNP Baaaad.

    From a Unionist dead tree press POV it’s most likely the 3rd option. It saves them having to do any actual work

  63. gus1940 says:

    BBC Scotland recently introduced a hideous graphic which flashes up prior to the start of FMQs.

    Once proceedings start every time the name of an MSP or (inevitably Unionist) journalist being interviewed is shown on the screen that hideous graphic backs the name making it very difficult to read the name.

    Adittionally, the names appear for a very short time.

    Is it just my eyes or are other people having a similar problem.

  64. Jim Morris says:

    3rd quarter figures (July, August, September) include seasonal workers in the tourist industry, jobs which do not exist the rest of the year.

  65. CameronB Brodie says:

    OK, “blood and soil” ideology also has a good bit to say about the benefits of returning to the countryside, which was felt promoted health and vitality. The original Home Counties version of “blood and soil” ideology was based on imperial Rome, not the Roman Republic. It formed the base for the formative understanding and practice of British town and country planning. Funny that. British nationalism has been planned in to the environment for over a century yet the Royal Town Planning Institute now proscribe planning ideology out of the environment. Have done for over thirty years, yet HMG still says it owns Scotland and British national ideology is imposes against the wishes of possible half the voting population of Scotland (through Westminster policy and the BBC, for example).

    I hate hypocrisy built on fudge. It’s unsightly and unsustainable. I also want my inalienable human rights respected. The denial of one right undermines the integrity and sustainability of legal protection provided by the broader framework of human rights legislation. Maintaining the integrity of human rights legislation is of primary importance to achieving a sustainable future. Westminster egregiously ignores human rights when it conflicts with Westminster and British nationalist interests.

    “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

    “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

  66. Macart says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    Pretty much.

    Doesn’t matter how badly we want an indyref tomorrow. It only matters what the majority of the Scottish electorate want. There is no point launching into an indyref campaign, no matter how right, how urgent or how justifiable we feel it may be, if the majority don’t want it to happen.

    It is VITAL that survey is read and completed by as many people as is humanly possible.

    If you’re a no vote last time who has changed their mind or an undecided who believes that enough is enough but are unsure how to elicit change, then give the government the armory to make it happen.

    Fill out the survey linked in PCs post.

  67. Robert Peffers says:

    @Andrew McLean says: 17 November, 2016 at 12:32 pm:

    “You wont see that in any newspaper!”

    I won’t see anything in newspapers, Andrew. I don’t read them anymore.

    This from a guy who used to read, (the then), best broadsheet from first to last page on his way to work and finish the hardest cryptic crossword, (most days), in his tea and lunch breaks.

    Then read his, (swapped with his mate’s), tabloid on the train and bus journey on his way home.

    In between time we had a crypto, (Teletype), machine connected to News Agencies running and printing out breaking news before it got into the papers, TV and radio.

    I’m still a news junkie and have bookmarked Reuters UK on my computer network. I just no longer believe a word from the UK media anymore.

  68. I see Tom Holland and Dan Snow are telling people to reject indyref2

  69. Lenny Hartley says:

    Flower of Scotland
    Don’t know what scots government position is on this, however it’s generally accepted that evictions possible due to badly written rplegistration from previous administration therefore current Administration should take responsibility.

  70. CameronB Brodie says:

    You’re a bold strategist but is the indy movement in a position to be bold? I wouldn’t like to say but fights have to be chosen carefully. Especially if you are the underdog.

    Zhukov, now there was a strategist. 😉

  71. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Awwh is poor wee Dan worried he might have to pay tax on his acres and acres o’ Scotland come Independence again @ Peter McCulloch at 2:58 pm

    Nae idea on Tom Holland who is he??

    “When nationalists both north and south of the border claim that they embody the future, they ignore the proven capacity of the union to evolve.”

    So they use the we’re the same as UKIP or Trumpsters angle.

    “The spirit embodied by Scotland in Union is one that we are confident can revitalise the whole of the United Kingdom. It reminds us of what we have in common, not what separates us; of what can be accomplished in the future, as well as everything that together we have achieved in the past.”

    And Scotland in Union get a mention too, they really are spoiling us 🙂

    What no “Scotland Unionist Parties betray their electorate by reversing Single Market support despite 62% voting to remain part of the EU” articles.

    See what we mean yet Thrawn the Unionist Pawn?

  72. manandboy says:

    The score so far: Downtrodden 2-1 Establishment

    If only this political ‘game’ we are all in, lasted only 90 minutes. But it started in 2012 with IndyRef14, and there’s still some way to go. This is a game requiring patience.

    The lead up to all this, the age of neo-liberal robbery by the elite, began around 1980, but the game plan of the super rich began to come off the rails in 2008 with the banking crash. However the wealthy weren’t punished, and we had to pay for their failed gambling habits with austerity – while the elite walked away with their billions intact.

    The fightback began with IndyRef14, but the Establishment secured control of Scotland’s untold riches, using every dirty trick in the book, plus a few more.

    Then Brexit in June 2016, gave the Establishment their first bloody nose with a close result, but a heavy defeat. The downtrodden trashed the neoliberal ruling class to go 1-1. And the super rich notice a weakening in their knees.

    Then to the Trump and another shock result in favour of the downtrodden. The Establishment are shaken, and the wealthy are now trembling at the knees – with fear.

    Back to the UK, and the Establishment are wondering what’s coming next. Is this the start of a French-style revolution? Will the wealthy be dragged screaming from their beds, to pay for their crimes with the retribution of the downtrodden?
    Must do something, they say. Theresa May has the answer, which is to tell the downtrodden that she, and her rich Tory friends, are the good wealthy people, and are on the side of the downtrodden, and will fight with them against the bad, greedy elite, whose names no one knows, unfortunately.
    And anyway, we are so incredibly busy drawing up a brexit plan, that we’ll leave the struggle between the downtrodden and the neoliberal elite aside for a while. Don’t worry, we’ll all soon be living in the most successful global trading nation ever seen.

    Meanwhile, Nicola, surrounded by enemy forces,viz. the greedy Unionists, led by Ruth, Willie and Kezia, is doing her best for her country against all the odds. That’s Westminster odds of course.

    BUT, it’s not over, far from it. The next wave of shocks has yet to arrive, as it surely will with European national elections in the next 18 months. Will the downtrodden of Europe prevail, again, like they did with Brexit and Trump? Or will the might of the European Establishment, abandon all decency and truth as in IndyRef14, and steal an EU result for the neo-liberal elite?

    To conclude. Scottish Independence does appear to be part of a much bigger political ‘game’, one involving the future of Europe and the United States, and maybe even beyond. Such is perhaps one of the consequences of globalisation, in which the dominoes go right round the world and into nearly every country.
    If, if, that’s the case, then patient endurance would appear to be basic equipment.

    Ninety minutes? – if only.

  73. Jack Murphy says:

    TODAY. Off Topic:
    “Plans to enshrine ‘a right to access to food’ in Scots Law”
    “———-The working group was set up by Scottish ministers in October 2015 to examine food insecurity and poverty.

    Equalities secretary Angela Constance said: “We have been very clear – no one should have to rely on emergency food provision in a country as prosperous as Scotland.

    “As the report from the working group highlighted, food poverty is a symptom of wider poverty and the UK government’s harmful welfare cuts and benefit sanctions regime has clearly pushed more and more people into an income crisis, increasing the demand for emergency food.————-”

    I am wondering what Ruth Davidson and all the other Tory people in Scotland have to say about this.
    They should hang their heads in shame.
    Their Tory cuts,but others starving!

    BBC Scotland Archived:

  74. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 17 November, 2016 at 2:14 pm:

    ” … I don’t want to be critical of the SNP, because they already get it from all directions, even if 95% of the rhetoric is fabricated nonsense.”

    Ye could have fooled me there, Breeks.

    … It isn’t the faith I doubt, it isn’t the confidence, it isn’t that I think somebody is better suited to the task…. It’s the game plan. Why are we sitting on the ball and looking as equally glum about the future as Theresa May is? We do have our tunnel dug, false papers forged, uniforms turned into civilian clothes, and our map of the border. It’s all done, we’re ready. We are getting out of this… aren’t we???”

    Aiblins, Breeks, yon’s jist aa muckle wheen o afu lang wirds jist tae say, “SNP BAAD”, or a meringue?

  75. liz says:

    @Peter McCulloch – I detest Dan Snow.

    Another over-privileged BritNat who got a job on the BBC because of his dad – nepotism.

    Father in law – was the richest man in UK,payed no death duties

  76. Muscleguy says:


    But at least neither are Scottish enough to be tablet, so fudge it is.

  77. heedtracker says:

    Jack Murphy says:
    17 November, 2016 at 3:21 pm
    TODAY. Off Topic:

    This is horrifying

    “It is one of the recommendations in a report published by the Independent Working Group on Food Poverty.

    The group said the change to the legal system would “not in itself end food insecurity”.

    Brexit means Brexit. Trump means Trump. Hungry people means…

  78. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 17 November, 2016 at 2:20 pm:
    “Donald Trump, a giant liar, a bully, a sexual molester of women, climate change denier, delusions of grandeur, Nazi style policy pronouncements
    He’ll fit right in at Westminster, watch them kiss his Arse”

    Ach! Dr Jim, Yon mental image jist pit mi richt aff ma tea. Guid joab A’h hidna pit it oan jist yit.

    Ah’ll jist hae a cup o tea an pit ma teatime liver & bacon oan hold fir a bittie.

  79. heedtracker says:

    liz says:
    17 November, 2016 at 3:32 pm
    @Peter McCulloch – I detest Dan Snow.

    Dan Snow’s one of life in the UKOK zone’s winners. His dad’s Irish not that that means anything.

    How to compare and contrast Dan, with say a filthy rich tax evader what’s owns the Daily Heil. Dan’s a plebster really but he’s got much more money.

    Red tory Graun’s rather odd line up of nutters that dont want to pay any tax in the UK. They’re happy to pay French taxes for example,

    Rothermere’s son Jonathan by his first wife inherited the Daily Mail, also through a Jersey trust, and a Bermuda-registered offshore entity. Jonathan is estimated to be worth £760m. He has not denied claiming tax concessions as a “non-dom”, on the grounds that his father lived in Paris. He resides at Ferne Park, a stately home in Wiltshire built for him by architect Quinlan Terry.

    So the deranged neo fascist that owns the Heil, can dodge UK taxes because his dad live in Paris but he actually lives in a mansion in Wiltshire. Maybe they moved Wiltshire over to France. Lucky France.

  80. Robert Peffers says:

    @Proud Cybernat says: 17 November, 2016 at 2:29 pm:

    “I think the SNP are on the case.”

    Right on the butten, Proud Cybernat, are they not just always, “On the button”, but usually at least two pushes of the button before anyone else?

    … Things ARE progressing even if they cannot yet be fully seen.”

    That too is you, “on the button”, Proud Cybernat.

    ” … For those who have not yet compeleted The National Syrvey, here’s the link:
    Two million surveys targetted by 30th November.

    And still a wee bit short of the target. Those who demand the SNP gets off its rear and does something should take heed. If they want everyone else to take actions while they sit on their rears and complain they should take the hint and get that survey filled and sent. The SG/SNP are only as powerful as the support they get from the non-SNP indy supporters who have been showing a propensity to complain about the SNP/SG perhaps more than the Yoon Loons sometimes.

  81. Fireproofjim says:

    Cameron B Brodie.
    You are right. Time for the referendum fight must be chosen carefully, and the time is not now.
    We fight when we KNOW we are going to win.
    Zhukov was a strategist who went into battle knowing he would win but was ruthless with casualties.
    Montgomery, at El Alamein, went into battle only when he was sure he would win and outnumbered the enemy in all departments. He held back and kept his nerve, despite pressure from Churchill, until victory was certain.
    The El Alamein strategy is what we must do. Keep our nerve. Don’t be tempted or forced to rush into a hasty decision. Wait till all the signs are in our favour and win this time.
    We will only have one chance. If we go too soon, and lose, it could be the end of the dream of independence for many years (or ever). Certainly it is unlikely the SNP would survive as a major force.

  82. Pete says:

    Re. Food Poverty
    Can’t agree with all this wishy washy stuff.
    Have spoken to people in the CAB and the police who tell me that most of the food bank people are there because they fail to turn up for meetings. Also, lots of the food given out is used as currency for drugs, fags and booze.
    Not a lot of food poverty about when you see the level of obesity.
    Nobody is so poor that they can’t afford food.
    A bit of self reliance is required I would have thought.

  83. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Also @ liz says 17 November, 2016 at 3:32 pm

    Dan Snow’s an Oxford Graduate who’s wife is the She is the second daughter of the late 6th Duke of Westminster,

    His Great Grandfather led the retreat from Mons, and was one of the Donkeys that led the Lions at the Somme then Cambrai (General Sir Thomas D’Oyly Snow).

    He did a wee documentary proclaiming his Great Grandad was a good guy and not a butcher/useless bast*rd.

    His Great Uncle is a Bishop

    His other Great-Grandfather was The Earl Lloyd George of Dwyfor, aye that Lloyd George.

    So Landed Gentry, Military, Church and State all boxes ticked.

    Just the man to tell us Jockos to get back in our wee box then 🙂

  84. heedtracker says:

    Dear Sap,

    It’s the big BBC Children in Need Appeal Night this Friday 18 November and we’ve been working with thousands of school children across Scotland as they have fun raising money.

    This year, schools are joining in with Big Spotacular events to raise funds for BBC Children in Need. Kids across the country have been using specially created Spotacular Fundraising Kits to go totally spotty, with ideas including On the Spot quizzes, Spotty cake bakes and Spot the Spot treasure hunts.

    Happitots Nursery in Glasgow have kick started their fundraising by turning the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum spotty.

    Whatever the Spotacular idea, it’s all in aid of BBC Children in Need. You can get involved too by donating today.”

    A nice email from my bank who say, “We’re tuning in this Friday night, are you?”

    Tune in and watch very high paid BBC vote SLab Scotland liggers fart about in a £350+ million glass box of vote NO vote tory fury, for charidy.


  85. Vestas says:

    Apparently we (the UK) now have the highest recorded level of employment since records began in 1971.

    It’d be interesting to see the percentage of that figure receiving some form of state “subsidy” (ie tax credits/housing benefit etc) to their wages.

    Do you all feel prosperous then?

  86. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    @ Pete says at 4:01 pm

    You fae Edinburgh Pete??

  87. CameronB Brodie says:

    I surrender. Must have picked things up the wrong, as I was under the mistaken impression that Zhukov was the underdog.

    Gone right off him now. 😉

  88. Socrates MacSporran says:

    A wee bit O/T maybe, but, I missed FMQs live, but have just caught up with it.

    After today, Buffalo Gal not only has a face like a well-skelpt erse, she also got her erse well skelpt.

    As for Dippity Dug – I do admire that girl’s courage, every week she stands up and gets smacked down, but, she keeps coming back for more.

  89. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Scotland in Union
    I doubt you lot would be able to plan towards a successful picnic, let alone a sustainable future for the nation of Scotland. Well, sustainability demands the inclusion of all. That won’t be the sort of ideology for your sort, eh?

    What substantiates their opinion, other than ideology?

    Ideology provides a poor base on which to base one’s judgement.

    Wealth does not ensure common sense.

    Wealth does not trump human rights.

    “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

    “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

  90. CameronB Brodie says:

    I suggested the indy movement was part of the global struggle against resurgent fascism, back in 2013/14.

    Without independence, the neo-liberal forces driving globalisation will most likely increase the pace at which Scottish culture is conformed into a homogenized British culture, heavily English in character. This does not help us achieve a sustainable future for all.

    The sustainability paradigm requires four pillars – cultural integrity is vital to protecting a viable future for humanity.

  91. Dr Jim says:

    @Pete and his scientific research food project

    Some deep and meaningful research there Pete son and all of us on this particular site would definitely agree with you

    I have spoken to Yoons and most of them are prats just like you and there’s really no need to be a prat is there (I would have thought)

  92. Fireproofjim says:

    Cameron B Brodi
    re General Zhukov. Just for info. He was the most successful Soviet general in WWII, never losing a battle, but utterly ruthless with casualties. He was a hero to all but Stalin, who feared his popularity and tried to write him out of history. He died in 1972.

  93. Stoker says:

    I see the Rev bragging about his manly conquests over on Twitter.

    Apparently he used a hammer and penknife to effect 2 car repairs.

    Jeez, before you know it he’ll be kicking tyres.

    I blame it on the SNP.

  94. CameronB Brodie says:

    I don’t deny there my be problems with the delivery system, which should not be required in the first place, but we are not all blessed with effective executive skills or life oppertunities.

    Remind me not to piss on you when your imagination manages to catch alight. Presently, you are a dull ember of humanity.

  95. Another Union Dividend says:

    heedtracker says at 4:04 pm

    Scots are probably the most generous charity donors but our local charities don’t have the advertising power of the National (UK) charities and often get ignored.

    For example Save the Children with their huge salaries

    as highlighted by Cottonjock

    gets much greater priority over the leading Scottish children’s charity Children 1st.

    or Great Ormond Street Hospital whose charity income was over £66 million in 2012.

    So can’t understand why Sainsbury’s is promoting this in Scotland when the local Sick Kids hospitals that treat their customers children get a fraction of this sum.

    Another problem with having a branch economy run from London HQs

  96. CameronB Brodie says:

    I was thinking about Kursk specifically, rather than his overall input. I’m not re-mobilising now, btw. 😉

  97. Dr Jim says:

    Just watched Gordon Buchanan the nature guy taking Dermot O’leary around Scotland to have a look at some animals

    Dermot says to Gordon politely “It’s a beautiful country you have you must be so proud” Cringeing Gordon says “It’s your country too now, the referendum sorted that one out lets have a toast to that”

    See this is the stupidity of the cringers
    Try going down to England and telling the people there England belongs to Scottish people, they’ll throw you in the nearest canal while they laughingly call you a Jock (insert unpleasant name)
    That’s the problem with the cringers they don’t seem to realise it only goes one way

    If you keep bending the knee the best you can expect is a slap on the head while you’re looking up with please treat me well eyes….Fido

  98. maureen says:

    gus1940 says:
    17 November, 2016 at 2:45 pm
    BBC Scotland recently introduced a hideous graphic which flashes up prior to the start of FMQs.

    Once proceedings start every time the name of an MSP or (inevitably Unionist) journalist being interviewed is shown on the screen that hideous graphic backs the name making it very difficult to read the name. Doubt very much it’s just you and me who can’t read it.

    Additionally, the names appear for a very short time.

    Is it just my eyes or are other people having a similar problem.

    Maureen says:
    I too am having difficulty reading it due to the colours used.

  99. Pete says:

    Cameron B Brodie
    Find most of your postings nothing but pretentious rubbish.
    You sound like a perpetual student who has never done a day’s work in your life.
    You prattle on about human rights but completely ignore individual responsibilities.
    I Imagine we taxpayers are keeping you afloat.

  100. robertknight says:

    Did the state broadcaster’s piece get instantly buried in the ‘Business’ section, along with other non-SNP-Bad material, or did it briefly make it on to the main Scotland page?

    Having complained about a reader’s comment on a BBC website article which described the FM as “pure scum”, only to be told that it didn’t break any BBC House Rules and the comment would therefore remain, I contrived to do likewise with regard to the PM, who I also described in a comment as “pure scum”, and guess what? Aye, my comment was removed!!!

    After pointing out the double standards being applied, the BBC stated that my comment had been removed “in error” and would be reinstated.

    Had I not kept the relevant data regarding the initial post about the FM, and been able to make them eat their own words, I doubt the outcome would’ve been the same.

  101. liz says:

    @Dr Jim – there are no words to describe such cringing, it is embarrassing

    Forelock tugger with one eye on his career, someone else to avoid on TV(had to look him up first to see who he was)

  102. Dr Jim

    Re: Gordon Buchanan cringing. Just watched that. Ghastly. Available on iplayer

    Offending comments start about the 0:34:50 mark. Full text also available on

    First broadcast in April

    Incidentally, I know Gordon’s brother very well – he lives round the corner from me – and he’s no cringer. SNP through and through.

  103. Thepnr says:

    As said by other posters here today we have Historians Dan Snow and Tom Holland teeming up once again, this time alongside Scotland In Union.

    These two London based upper echelon types, you know those educated at public schools and then Oxbridge were highly vocal before the first referendum so not really surprised to see them once more sticking their nose in.

    Between them they were responsible for the Lets Stay Together campaign which gave us celebrities such as Sir Paul McCartney, Bowie, Cilla Black etc all imploring that we stay.

    Please stay Scotland was the message!

    Well we know how that worked out on the 19th Sep with Cameron on the doorstep of Downing street telling the Scots to GTF.

    They even produced a video shown in the Guardian called “Scotland, your my best friend”. We know how that worked out.

    Couple of months later we had the 215 signatures begging Scotland to stay, this organised by Snow and Holland.

    The letter was organised by historians Dan Snow and Tom Holland, both of whom are prominent supporters of the unionist campaign, “Better Together”.

    Well now they’re back to tell us that “Scotland in Union” is for your own good. Fall in line then sweaties. Hear the word of your betters.

  104. Brian Powell says:

    Dr Jim

    So Gordon Buchanan should stop calling himself a Scottish Wild life etc and make it British.

  105. CameronB Brodie says:

    I understand a few ologies. I’ve also recovered from severe physical trauma that left me badly brain damaged, lived on the street, built a business up from scratch (without any startup capital or prior knowledge of business or the sector I was trading in), managed PTSD and survived to release “The Methodology of the Oppressed” in to the wilds of Scotland. I think I understand the concept of responsibilities. You just haven’t a clue, do you?

    Would you like to meet?

  106. Pete says:

    Cameron B Brodie
    Think I’ll pass on meeting up with you.
    Happy to just pass on your ramblings.
    Anyway, good luck to you.

  107. Brian Powell says:

    After seeing the bit about Gordon Buchanan I do wonder of it’s a requirement to be Brit mindset to get the jobs: Neil Oliver, Muriel Gray. They have the exaggerated, halfpanny Scottish accents and tramp across the heather, but turn out to hate the Scots for wanting to run their own affairs.

    Perhaps playing the ‘Scottish chappie’ is what the producers want. The Scot who fits in his given place, like John Brown, in his kilt, always subservient to his betters.

  108. manandboy says:

    CameronB Brodie 4:49pm
    “Without independence, the neo-liberal forces driving globalisation will most likely increase the pace at which Scottish culture is conformed into a homogenized British culture, heavily English in character. ”
    I agree with everything you say, CBB, but I do think that in its present situation, whereby the power of the British Establishment, overwhelmingly neo-liberal, is still too much for the Independence movement to overcome, it may well need to see further helpful political changes elsewhere, before Independence becomes a sure thing. I’m thinking specifically of further difficulties for the Westminster government, keeping in mind that Brexit has yet to begin.

  109. CameronB Brodie says:

    According to Pete, the PRINCIPLES OF CONTEMPORARY SOCIAL SCIENCE are ramblings. There’s that anti-science perspective again.

    I guess Pete likes to spend time bending knee and tugging with FAN-BOY, in their shabby tent of diminished BEING.

  110. Robert Peffers says:

    @Pete says:17 November, 2016 at 4:01 pm:

    “Can’t agree with all this wishy washy stuff.
    Have spoken to people in the CAB …”

    That is the most disgusting, sickening and depraved comment I’ve read anywhere in a very, very long time.

    Not only is it full of absolute ignorance and lies but it implicates the dedicated police and the workers at the CAB. The author is an absolute ignorant idiot and a liar.

    In the first place one of the classic signs of food depravation is obesity caused by poor diet. The cheapest foods are the ones most certain to cause obesity.

    Anyone who has seen, first hand, children in famine areas or looked at photos of starving children can testify that they have bloated tummies.

    Furthermore I’m old enough to remember the scourge of bad diet and abject poverty in Scotland with rickets rife in Scotland’s cities and countryside. I have known many fine people who, in their childhood, suffered depravation and food poverty. Many too, had rickets.

    These people suffered ill health, and had to fight overweight the rest of their lives due to their food depravation in their childhood. It not only had damaged them physically, many were undersized and had the bandy, misshapen legs so typical of rickets victims.

    That was why the Government supplied school children with milk, Orange Juice and Cod Liver oil in the war years. Not only that but the worst deprived children got supplied with jars pf Malt.

    The food depravation, let’s call it what it was, starvation, irreversibly changed their metabolism for the rest of their lives and they were then mistakenly put on strict diets.

    Yet that too was to cause then abject misery for anyone who really knows the truth is that restricted calorie diets do not work. They certainly case short term weight loss but they also alter metabolism.

    Upon the diet ending, and it cannot be continued long term, the victim then piles on weight at an even greater rate than before the diet begun. Then they were put back on a restricted calorie diet and their life on the diet treadmill had begun. It would last till their usually premature death.

    Pete, you are the lowest form of life that has sullied Wings since ever I began reading and later commenting here. I do not wish you any ill but do wish you had less of the idiotic ideas of the far right wing Red, Yellow and true-blue Tories of the Union.

  111. One_Scot says:

    Dan Snow, is that not the guy whose family owns vast areas of land in Scotland.

    No wonder he’s begging for us not to go. Probably shitting himself at how much money he might lose out on.

    Is there anything more pathetic than Yoons begging to protect their self interests? No, not really.

  112. Andrew Mclean says:

    What’s your problem? Why target the users of food banks, oh and your claims that you have been told this by CAB and the police is so stupid as to make me think you are a tender young boy who has never seen life.

    You don’t also have a problem with young pregnant women as well do you, just asking because we had an insidious yoon on here recently who was fixated by that demographic.

    When you have something substantial to say, try and back it up with evidence, because now you just sound cruel and spiteful.

  113. heedtracker says:

    BBC Politics
    2 hrs ·
    He said he had achieved his political ambition with Brexit, but is the House of Lords Nigel Farage’s next stop?

    Have to hand to the toryboys, they are shameless lying basterds. Title of my latest movie. Jeremy Clarkson is, shameless lying basterd Lord Nigel Farage.

    “We are seeing is an increasingly authoritarian European Union that crushes democratic rights and then actually crows about it” said Nigel Farage in the European Parliament, Strasbourg today before Presidents Juncker and Tusk.

    Arise Lord Farage, you lying bastard.

  114. Macbeda says:

    Please, please.

    There will be no fecking rUK as many of you write.

    There will only be the Kingdom of England left if the Kingdom of Scots leaves the UK and Scotland remains in the EU.

  115. Robert Peffers says:

    @Socrates MacSporran says: 17 November, 2016 at 4:29 pm:

    “After today, Buffalo Gal not only has a face like a well-skelpt erse, she also got her erse well skelpt.”

    Not an uncommon event, Socrates. Not that you will read about it, see it or hear it on the Scottish, (sic), media.

    “As for Dippity Dug – I do admire that girl’s courage, every week she stands up and gets smacked down, but, she keeps coming back for more.”

    Oh! Well spotted, Socrates. I’ve been trying for ages to remember what it was about the Dippity Dug that reminded me of something I just could not place.

    It was that daft game, from way back when, “Whackamole”.

    The wee blind creatures keep popping up at random from lots of wee holes. The player has a large mallet and must try and whack the wee moles when they suddenly, and randomly, pop up in through those wee holes.

    So, pun not intended, you hit the mole, (err!), nail on the head. FMQs is like Whackamole and no matter how many moles you whack – the daft wee buggers just keep on popping back up again to get whacked yet again and again.

  116. Smallaxe says:

    Robert Peffers says:@ 3:31
    “Aiblins, Breeks, yon’s jist aa muckle wheen o afu lang wirds jist tae say, “SNP BAAD”, or a meringue?”

    Naw yer richt Robert!


    Peace Always

  117. Thepnr says:


    I don’t think Dan Snow himself owns land in Scotland. The link is through his wife Lady Edwina Louise Grosvenor daughter of the 6th Duke of Westminster who recently passed away.

    Lady Edwina Louise Grosvenor who is a goddaughter of Princess Diana is not a main beneficiary of the Dukes estate which is all held in a trust fund the “Grosvenor Estate” meaning that the new 7th Duke of Westminster, Lady Edwina’s younger brother Hugh Grosvenor “avoided what could otherwise have been a multibillion-pound tax bill when he inherited the estate from his father.”

    The trust own 96,000 acres of land in Scotland as well as 32,000 in Spain and most of Mayfair & Belgravia in London.

    Hugh is a godfather to Prince George son of Prince William and as such 3rd in line to the throne behind his father and Prince Charles.

    Dan Snow is right, Scotland please stay (allow us to carry on as before, please we don’t need things to change) it’s just you we’re thinking of, honest.

  118. Thepnr says:

    We’re all in it together.

    Aren’t we?

  119. Smallaxe says:

    Pete says:@ 4:01

    “A bit of self reliance is required I would have thought.”

    Maybe what is required is a bit of self-awareness Pete!

    Peace Always

  120. CameronB Brodie says:

    Most folk without my sort of technical training are unaware of the factors that influence and shape their BEING. Unfortunately, a perspective that is not well-informed is unlikely to provide a good platform for rational judgement processes. Hence the BBC.

    I feckin’ hate politics, but I’ve allowed myself to be drawn in to a position where I feel a responsibility as an enabler. If Pete raised his head for a minute he might see the horizon I am describing, as well as the man-traps. As it is, he sits in vulnerable isolation.

  121. CameronB Brodie says:

    Yes, you are keeping me as I am disabled and was so before I got my degree. Shall I stop living just for you? You might be able to get an extra round in on Friday night, if I did that, just for you.

  122. Tinto Chiel says:

    “….in their shabby tent of diminished BEING.”

    Proof, CameronB, that whatever other talents you may have, you are also a poet, IMHO.

    Looking forward to your Cantos.

    I’d buy them.

  123. Ken500 says:

    Farague is absolute crook. A total lying ‘Psycho Bastard’. He should be in jail. He has lied and funded a Political Party with public money. He is destroying the world economy. He is a thief and a crook. Arron Banks is his bag man.He launders the stolen money through his tax evading offshore funds. Wiki leaks. Two total crook who are trying to line their pockets by murdering and maiming millions of innocent people.

    The Tory want to give him a Knighthood to keep him quiet. The reason they want out of the EU is so they can keep on tax evading and embezzling public money. The authorities should be investigating his affair. Undeclared Accounts and tax evading offshore Accounts.

    The Tories are ruining the world economy. The EU is not responsible for the migration in Europe.
    The UK/US and the French have been illegally bombing the Middle East for years and taking their resources. Causing the biggest migration crisis since 11WW. There would be no migration into the UK from the EU if the UK/US and France had not been illegal bombing the Middle East for years. They are causing the migration crisis, refusing to help and then blaming the EU. They are pathetic
    criminal liars They should be put in jail. The most disgusting evil cretins ever put on the face of the earth.

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

  124. Fred says:

    With the Western Isles history of brutal eviction & clearance it’s astonishing how anybody from the likes of Mull (the Officers Mess) grows up a Union Jack waver! astonishing. (he’s not the only one either!) Thought Dermott O’Leary was Irish though?

    As for Dan Snow & his Westminster connections & thousands of acres of cleared land. The pre-war duke, like many of his peers, was a Nazi.

  125. CameronB Brodie says:

    Tinto Chiel
    Thank you, very kind. I have had to get buy with nothing but bull before. 🙂

  126. dakk says:

    @ Pete 5.47

    ‘I Imagine we taxpayers are keeping you afloat’

    Yoons like yourself are the real hardcore dependency junkies so dont try come over all superior and righteous.

    My guess is you probably sponge off Yoon largesse somewhere like most of your ilk.

  127. Breeks says:

    No, you actually are wrong. IF and when I want to lay in to the SNP, trust me, you won’t be left in any doubt about it.

    But I also struggle with the line that you can’t start the Indyref2 campaign until there is a majority to win it.

    Ok, there is a little bit of sense to that, but what about the pre-Indyref2 campaign? The campaign to build momentum and support for Independence and partnership with Europe so that support is growing and momentum is already building when the formal campaign begins?

    We seem to in a stalled campaign where we sit back and hope all the muck being thrown up about Europe being on the brink of collapse and needed defended from the Russians is not going to erode support for the EU. Add to this other daily salvo of propaganda telling us Brexit is ok, it’s not so bad, we’re all going to be fine.

    Take a step back and look. There is currently a well funded ongoing campaign in Scotland to move public opinion; to erode support for the EU and muster acceptance if not outright support for Brexit. Please tell me you can see that. It’s not subtle, it’s not sophisticated, but it’s ever present in the media.

    Where is the counter campaign? The campaign to promote Europe and spell out the damage which Brexit is going to suffer on all our heads? Are we really doing our own YES referendum in reverse and using the Unionist strategy of trusting that our majority opinion in favour of Europe is large enough to survive any assault?

    If you’re happier that criticism is aimed at somebody else besides the SNP, then have it whichever way you like it, but it’s something that needs to start happening or we will fall to the same devices which tripped us up in 2014, we will find ourselves out of Europe in economic meltdown, and with an Indyref2 campaign already stillborn.

    If the SNP is alert to the dangers and pulling out all the stops, then that’s terrific news, but it needs to be seen, because the Britnat media needs us all to be asleep if we are to sleepwalk into Brexit, and right now it’s they who are winning the mind battle.

    That isn’t SNP bad or despair about failure, that is a strategic alarm call to avoid repetition of past failure.

  128. Scott says:

    I note that RS had no mention of that tank crash from the Tank commander at FMQs today what a phony stupid person she is and she wants to be our FM.

  129. heedtracker says:

    Anyone got money on Dr NO! popping up in the BBC Question Time audience tonight?

    5/4 Dr NO! right in the middle of audience.
    10/1 Dr NO! shouts “Disgrace” at anyone SNP.
    2/1 No actual SNP on Question Time show, from Sterling is it?

    BBC Question Time ?@bbcquestiontime Nov 10
    If you’d like to apply to be in an upcoming #bbcqt audience, you can do so here, only local and angry tory nutters allowed.

  130. Grouse Beater says:

    Scott: “and she wants to be our FM.”

    Arguable, Scott. More likely it’s posturing.

    She’s waiting for elevation to a safe English Tory seat in a rural district, and then she can retire, a cushy number until made the cushiest of numbers, a peer.

  131. heedtracker says:

    As for Dan Snow & his Westminster connections & thousands of acres of cleared land. The pre-war duke, like many of his peers, was a Nazi.”

    2014 was a rather squeeky bum time for Dan and the rest of the filthy rich tories what own and run their devolved territories of greater England. It must have seemed like the French revolution in that last week run up to 18th Sept 2014, for the whole planet toryboy shebang, their hired goon liggers in particular.

    Or, as big slob currently loafing around a leafy suburb Glasgow south side says,

    Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall Nov 9
    @KennyFarq @JamieRoss7 we certainly held back a tide that’s overwhelmed others but we had a simpler message that took on populist offer.

  132. Liz g says:

    dakk @ 7.20
    Well said…. Lot’s are prepared to mouth off about what Tax shouldn’t be spent on.
    They never seem to answer when asked…well then what are Taxes For?

    Fed up hearing that The NHS is not a bottomless pit.
    Why not ?
    Why can’t we organise to collect enough tax to do what it takes to keep the population healthy.
    Of course we can and most I’ll wager would agree.
    There is a limit of course there is.
    The limit is the population once everyone has health care,thats when you at the end of your spend.

    Same principle for most of society’s need’s.
    It’s all the other demands on the tax take that’s using it up.
    We as a people need to define what Tax is actually for.
    It really doesn’t have to be that complicated,then we can finally close the door on this narrative of the deserving and undeserving receiving help from the tax pay’er.
    If nothing else it will shut the moaners up,cause to be honest is getting old.

  133. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “The Scottish Legal system, agreed by the Treaty of Union to remain independent in perpetuity, is based upon the people of Scotland being legally sovereign. So Westminster’s claims of sovereignty are lies.”

    You don’t have the foggiest idea of “sovereignty” means in practice.

    The reconvened Scottish parliament has very limited powers and an even lower budget.

    Scottish MPs are outnumbered 11 to 1 at Westminster and cannot get a single thing passed. They have ZERO powers at Westminster.

    The Scottish “plebs” were never “sovereign”. They only got the right to vote under Westminster laws, not from any Scottish declarations nor from the Scottish legal system.

    Colonised Scots claiming to be “sovereign” to “foreigners” must be the laughing stock of the world.

    Westminster, IN PRACTICE, is “sovereign” and has been since the Treaty of Union.

    Any document giving “sovereignty” to the “plebs” of Scotland will become worth the paper it is written on when Scotland is independent with a democratic written constitution giving equal rights to all citizens.

    The Scottish Legal system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

  134. Tinto Chiel says:

    Dan Snow has always been an establishment plank and it comes in handy to marry into the Grosvenor family, who barely pay a bawbee in tax (unlike the rest of us), despite their fabulous wealth.

    Tom Holland is a disappointment. His “In The Shadow of The Sword” was a very brave account of the origins of Islam, Christianity and the Jewish faith which risked a considerable backlash. A relative of mine worked on the subsequent documentary and there was a lot of heavy stuff from some religious groups who didn’t like what he said, and the film was pretty much neutered after that.

    Unlike Dan, he is intelligent, but many people got involved with the “Hug A Sweaty” campaign during Indyref1 (Bowie, anyone?) from a patronising and condescending attitude to the wee Scots stokers on board HMS Rule Britannia. I don’t believe they’re all hardcore Britnats, they’re just people whose opinions are completely irrelevant to me, and to many on here, I suspect.

    Now Gavin Esler and his wee magic border cairnie, that’s another kettle of fish…..

  135. CameronB Brodie says:

    If you want to get past “deserving and undeserving” poor, you’ll have to let go of the British national ideology. Those utilitarian shackles have enslaved British society since before John Stewart Mill. It’s an Anglican thing.

  136. Stoker says:

    Anyone not wanting to click on the direct link to the BUM rag in Thepnr’ post at 5:58pm can easily access the Youtube footage by Googling = Scotland, you’re my best friend. Plenty results!
    Andrew Mclean wrote to Pete:

    “You don’t also have a problem with young pregnant women as well do you, just asking because we had an insidious yoon on here recently who was fixated by that demographic.”

    I was wondering when someone would catch onto that, well done.
    One and the same me thinks.

  137. CameronB Brodie says:

    British society is built on a foundation of institutional corruption and structured through habitus and symbolic violence. Most minds have become dulled to this fact.

    Who’s got the matches?

  138. Robert Peffers says:

    @Pete says: 17 November, 2016 at 5:47 pm:

    “I Imagine we taxpayers are keeping you afloat”

    Here, Pete old son, is a wee bit of friendly advice from an old man who has seen and learned a great deal throughout his life and has always been ready to learn, – even yet, in my old age. Something new learned every day.

    Now, from experience, I can usually sum up most people in a very short time and you are no exception. What you are doing posting here on Wings is, in your mind, Pete being oh! So clever and telling those nasty Cybernats what’s what.

    In fact all you have done so far is expose yourself as a blethering idiot and, what’s more, every succeeding post from you only serves to amplify your idiocy. You are either very young and uneducated, Many from the public school system who believe themselves well educated are anything but well educated.

    So here’s the thing, your first effort was utterly obnoxious and quite an indicator of an undereducated, self important numptie. In that you exposed yourself as not being aware that it is a proven scientific fact that the foods cheaply available to the poorest in the World are the foods that are most certain to cause obesity.

    I’ll put that another way for you. It is not the sheer quantity of food that causes obesity but the type of diet that does. If you had visited the famine hit parts of the World you would have seen little children, on the point of death from starvation and they have spindly limbs and swollen pot bellies. Secondly calorie restricted diets do indeed lose a dieter weight – they also do not work in the long term because the dieter’s metabolism changes.

    Now you come up with the idiotic claim that, “I Imagine we taxpayers are keeping you afloat”.

    This exposes your total lack of knowledge of how taxation actually works. First of all there are two basic forms of taxation.

    Direct taxation – that is tax directly levied upon earnings. profits and wealth. That equates to taxing those best able to pay, but more of that later.

    Indirect taxation is tax that is levied upon goods and services and this type of tax is NOT levied upon those best able to pay but actually is designed to shift the main burden of taxation from the richest and levy it more upon the poorest in society.

    Now indirect taxation can in fact be a fair tax if it remains within the well known rules of taxation and after the rule of only taxing those who can pay comes the rule of, “Disposable Income”.

    This is a term defined as, “income remaining after deduction of taxes and other mandatory charges, available to be spent or saved as one wishes.”

    The UK tax system, under a Labour Government, was changed from direct taxation to indirect taxation and the two main rules of fair taxation were not applied. Furthermore, every UK government has then since exasperated
    that discrepancy.

    Consider this. It cost exactly the same to put a potato on a rich woman’s plate as it does to put a potato on a poor man’s plate. This applies to everything that is essential for all human beings wellbeing. Food, clothes, housing and household essentials.

    Thus, there must be at lest enough basic money provided to each person to allow them those basic essentials of life. However, as indirect taxation is levied upon goods and services this means that the rule of, “Disposable Income”, means that VAT on goods and services is the main source of revenue and as the poorest do not have enough for basic essentials but pay tax upon them then the poorest are carrying the main burden of tax while those with the largest disposable incomes pay the least.

    Indirect tax includes Road Fuel Duty and we must all pay that. It includes VAT on Services and we all must pay for services and it includes Betting tax, alcohol tax. entertainment tax and a good deal of a weeks shopping is taxed too.

    So there you go, Pete, it is the poor, the old, the sick and the disabled in The United Kingdom who are factually keeping you, not just afloat, but in comfort you have NOT earned.

    Matter of stone cold fact, Pete, a babe still in nappies is taxed indirectly to keep you and yours. Oh! And the dead person’s insurance for their funeral is taxed so even the dead are keeping you Pete. The lest important tax these days for raiseing revenue is income tax and the other taxes on wealth and profits.

    Have you an answer?

    I do not expect one, Pete, so I will not be disappointed when you cannot answer the case.

  139. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert Peffers,

    Game set and match.

  140. Macart says:

    Mr Holland I’m only vaguely aware of and Mr Snow doesn’t have a scooby how the other half live. If all relevant posts above are correct on his background, he never will.

    He won’t know poverty, be troubled by government austerity ideology, be touched by the rising xenophobia of Brexit UK, affected by an isolationist UK or indeed give a shit whether we exist or not. He won’t be demonised and singled out for othering by the entirety of the UK’s massed media and he’ll never struggle to have his opinion heard, never mind fairly or accurately represented.

    As someone who will never walk a mile in most folks shoes in Scotland, his opinion on our lives and aspirations therefore is worth what?

  141. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rock says: 17 November, 2016 at 8:01 pm:

    Robert Peffers,
    “The Scottish Legal system, agreed by the Treaty of Union to remain independent in perpetuity, is based upon the people of Scotland being legally sovereign.”

    Ach! Awa an bile yer heid. Ya numptie. I no longer even read your idiotic posts. Stop wasting my time and yours.

  142. Ken500 says:

    Some tine ago Peter Sniw was on a programme. It was so memorable. The name can’t be remembered. Twittering about some nonsense. He made a comment about pensions, saying young people don’t bother about pensions. ‘ His son and his girl friend did not bother about pensions’ They did not consider making pension provision. Young people just did not bother about such things.

    Not mentioning his son’s girl friend was the daughter of the richest man in Britain. They now have a daughter who would be in line to benefit from tax free inheritance .

    The Duke of Westminster suffered from depression.

    Dan Snow benefitted from nepotism. His father’s and his uncle’s connection. Dan Snow was canvassing on behalf of the Royals, who are supposed to be impartial at the IndyRef. Breaking constitutional commitment.

  143. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Breeks @ 19:27:

    There is currently a well funded ongoing campaign in Scotland to move public opinion; to erode support for the EU and muster acceptance if not outright support for Brexit. Please tell me you can see that.

    Damn right I can. Unfortunately, this campaign is also being aided and abetted by idiot backstabbers like Alex Neil and a small coterie of usual suspects in the letters pages of The National. If you can still be amazed at the disreputable behaviour of BLiS and FibDem in Holyrood, how much worse is it for supposed supporters of indy to be gratuitously undermining the SG’s attempts at a united front? Splitters we can really do without right now.

    While Nicola was first out of the starting block at the outset of the Brexit debacle, I too am getting worried that too much of the running now is being left to the opponents of indy, and the SNP message has become far too vague. The result of the referendum across the whole of Scotland was unmistakeable, and needs to be used with far greater clarity and determination. The only person I can see doing that currently is Mike Russell.

    Time to start creating events, not merely passively relying on them coming along by accident or fate. For goodness’ sake, we’re almost there already, and another indy campaign hasn’t even properly started yet. After all the outright lies of BT the last time, we can win this thing, and our opponents know it. Why give them so much opportunity then to flannel their way through?!

  144. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 8.21
    Aye Cameron,thats kind of where I am coming from.
    I really don’t want a mini me Westminster when we are Independent.
    I want it done differently and better.
    I never believed that there isn’t enough for everyone in a country like this.
    I think it is just a matter of how we as a society organise.
    Ofcourse it could never be perfect but I always think that if you aim for the moon you just might hit one of the star’s.
    One of the main issues we need to address is indeed Tax.
    That’s the kind of list’s Scotland actually need’s.
    Two of them……what will be tax funded and what won’t be tax funded….
    Decided by us not politicians,their job should only be to collect and distribute tax.
    Not invent it.
    Or decide who gets it.
    One thing I am sure of there is no possibility that Westminster could ever change,how England deal’s with that is not for me to say,all I do know is that we need to leave and make the changes our people need for ourselves.

  145. Iain More says:

    I will put my own peculiar spin on the Unemployment figures since unemployment is supposedly down and yet the numbers in work has also supposedly fallen. I can explain that possibly – EMIGRATION! AS IN IM SCOTTISH GET ME THE EFF OUT OF NEO-FASCIST BRITTANIA!

    Well they want to get out of UKOK before they find out their papers aren’t in order.

  146. Andrew Mclean says:

    I think some have been a little harsh, I have been reading your posts again over the last week, and realised it was your point about timescales that had got me thinking. I don’t know if you truly understood what you picked up on, but it passed a lot of guys on here by.

    So I have been digging into the question you posed, I was able to answer it somewhat in about 20 min, but the deeper I dug, the further the question opened up, it has taken me down some unusual paths, I can tell you, and has now involved politicians and journalists around the world, and I am a long way from the end. Some of the revelations have been quite astonishing so far, so what I am saying is thanks, it was a good question asked at the right time, when I was able to spend the hours preparing a root cause analysis.

    As for what I have found, and what secrets are still to be discovered, that’s for another day.
    Just wanted to say thanks, now you won’t find that on a yoon site.

  147. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “Ach! Awa an bile yer heid. Ya numptie. I no longer even read your idiotic posts. Stop wasting my time and yours.”

    Mine make more realistic sense than your pedantic ones.

    You don’t have the foggiest idea of what “sovereignty” means in practice.

  148. Pete says:

    Robert Peffers
    Last time I looked there are no indirect taxes (VAT) on basic foodstuffs which should assist the so – called poor to have a proper diet.
    VAT is however levied on sweets, rubbish foods , sugary drinks, alcohol and fags which are the types of purchases which should be avoided by those on limited incomes and those who wish to avoid obesity and poor health.
    An inconvenient fact !!!

  149. Smallaxe says:


    Thank you for keeping me afloat on Morphine and daily Chemotherapy costing
    £3,600 per month.I will endeavour to die quickly,on one condition,that being, that you come with me!

    I would save the taxpayer lots of money,you would save the good people here on Wings,from having to read the utter pish that flows from your every post.

    See you in Hell!

  150. heedtracker says:

    Arise Lord Farage, for services to fascism, at home and abroad. Wonder what silly Lords name Lord Farage will take. Lord Darling of Roulanish is rather trolly but not the worst.

  151. Ken500 says:

    Gordon Buchanan another Unionist broadcaster. Is it provided in the CV for funding? Tom Morton was quite a shock. Gordon Buchanan patronises ‘Mother India’.

  152. heedtracker says:

    VAT is however levied on sweets, rubbish foods , sugary drinks, alcohol and fags which are the types of purchases which should be avoided by those on limited incomes and those who wish to avoid obesity and poor health.
    An inconvenient fact !!!

    Wonder when that one would be farted out torboy style. You forgot, how can they afford televisions and next up, I’d scrub the neighbours floors before I’d scrounge off the dole…

    Bring back the poor house, the cane, national service, hanging, god save the queen.

  153. Liz g says:

    Smallaxe @ 9.14
    DON’T YOU BLOODY DARE….by order.

  154. Rock says:

    CameronB Brodie,

    British society is built on a foundation of institutional corruption and structured through habitus and symbolic violence. Most minds have become dulled to this fact.”

    Yes. The people are not stupid. They know exactly where they stand. Whenever they get a chance, they take it. Like the folks who voted for independence.

    It is totally useless to bang on about the non-existent “sovereignty” of the Scots.

    There was nothing we could do about Carmichael.

    If Brexit happens, Scotland gets out of the EU, no ifs no buts.

    There is zero possibility of Scotland as a colony getting any special treatment in the EU.

  155. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Pete @ 21:10,

    VAT is levied (at a reduced rate) on heat and light. A very fundamental and unavoidable expense for us all, and a considerable fraction of the income of poorer people, including eg. pensioners. So I’m not really sure what your point is, except apparently to demonise the less fortunate, like that other hobby-horse rider a few days ago.

    Your assertion earlier on this afternoon that “lots of the food given out is used as currency for drugs, fags and booze” was a particularly low blow. An outrageous slander, in fact, unless you can back it up with hard evidence. (Bet you can’t. Just hearsay.)

    And anyway, what has any of this tabloidesque posturing to do with independence. which is the whole point of this website? The problems that you raise are not going to disappear like magic with indy, to be sure, but they’re not going to get worse either. On balance, taking decisions closer to the facts should be an improvement that even right-wingers like yourself should be able to recognise, if you’re being honest. (Assuming, that is, you are not merely an axe-grinding Unionist out for a spot of cheap frustration-release.)

  156. Ken500 says:

    – Snow

    Lloyd George partitioned Ireland and established the right to the State of Israel. The Balfour agreement. Both caused the bloodshed of millions of innocent people. Catastrophes like no others.
    What a legacy.

    The worst tragedies in history.

  157. frogesque says:


    YES voters are not permitted to loose this mortal coil until after we achieve Indy. The rim geeper will just have to wait for us.

  158. Robert Peffers says:

    Breeks says: 17 November, 2016 at 7:27 pm:

    ” … Take a step back and look. There is currently a well funded ongoing campaign in Scotland to move public opinion; to erode support for the EU and muster acceptance if not outright support for Brexit. Please tell me you can see that. It’s not subtle, it’s not sophisticated, but it’s ever present in the media.”

    Look Breeks, I do not for a moment think you are deliberately attempting to undermine the SG/SNP or the broader Indy Movement but in your impatience for action you pose a danger we can really do without.

    Furthermore, you actually answer your own question but have not recognised that you have done so.

    You posted this, “It’s not subtle, it’s not sophisticated, but it’s ever present in the media.”

    Now here’s the thing you seem not to have noticed about that statement – not being subtle those who would not normally notice it are now noticing it.

    This is probably because, by being in no way politically sophisticated, it becomes much easier for politically non-sophisticated persons to see it for what it really is.

    Its ever presence having the usual effects of searing it into the brains of those Picturkist Watchers, Redtop Tabloid Readers and Radio Jockstrap Uncritical listeners of junk radio.

    The signs on the streets of Scotland seem to me to indicate the swing towards Scottish independence is still gathering new support. It only needs a little of that swing to be exactly what we want to happen.

    Further to that I suggest the recent increase in fairly obvious trolling plants, (no I do not mean Triffids, I mean such as the totally unsophisticated and unsubtle Pete.), are a sign of desperation and despair in the Yoon Loon ranks.

    In short it is far too obvious and a dead giveaway of sheer unbridled panic measures among the Westminster Establishment would be special agents.

    If we can see it as unsubtle and unsophisticated it has to be at least a bit more apparent to a few more erstwhile fence sitting or even unionist leaning persons in Scotland. Really, Breeks, the general public are not really fools. They are, more likely just not politically aware … YET.

  159. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Rock @21:29:

    There is zero possibility of Scotland as a colony getting any special treatment in the EU.

    You can’t be mistaken for a ray of sunshine, dear fellow, but on this you are surely right.

    We seem to be going through an extraordinary amount of faffing around just to get to finally recognising that huge elephant in the room. Maybe there will be some fancy words and a policy crumb or two thrown our way to try to deflect the blow, but there will be no special EU deal for Scotland. Nada. Nichts. Rien.

    Hear that Kez Dug and Wee Willie? You can have your precious UKOK, but you won’t get the EU as well. (As if you really care.) Instead a big billion-pound Brexit iceberg waiting for us as we sail off into the sunset on HMG Titanic. But the band is playing a cheery tune, so….


  160. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    I’m certainly no economist Robert but Scotland’s economy currently sits within that of the UK. This suppresses both the scope and pace of development in Scotland, as a result of UKOK macro economics being fitted to English needs (e.g. interest rates). Three centuries of stagnant population testify to such a union not being beneficial to Scotland.

    Things won’t be easy or put right over night, but Scotland has ample potential to follow a new path to a better society.

    An accountable, transparent government would be novel approach to democracy, though perhaps alien as a concept due to Westminster’s ‘competence’ over the centuries.

  161. Robert Peffers says:

    Rock says: 17 November, 2016 at 9:09 pm:

    Read my last reply to you.

  162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie: @ 21:59:

    Scotland’s economy currently sits within that of the UK. This suppresses both the scope and pace of development in Scotland, as a result of UKOK macro economics being fitted to English needs

    Indeed. That’s actually what the GERS figures qualitatively signify. (They don’t signify anything quantitatively.)

    I think that’s the crucial message to get over to the waverers. We are not uniquely incapable of running our own affairs. On the contrary, we can do it well. (Serious investment in tidal power, for example, could make us a real power broker. Literally.)

    Which then begs the question of how, exactly. That’s what we really need to address. And why I’m not quite as sanguine as eg. Robert Peffers, since we can’t just rely on sensible people noticing that the opposition are over-egging their pudding. It helps, without a doubt, but on its own is not enough, I feel.

  163. Cactus says:

    Aweright Tinto Chiel, I second your 7:10 pm

    Peace Always and long life..


  164. Smallaxe says:

    liz g and frogesque:

    Thank you for your very kind posts,I’m afraid this “person” angered me,it is an emotion I dislike.I have worked all my life until retiring and in all probability,I have worked harder and paid more tax than this “person”
    ever has, or is likely to.

    Peace and Love to All

  165. Dr Jim says:

    Yoons are hilarious

    The tiniest wee thing happens (a train broke)(somebody misused a food bank) (some people became unemployed) (an expert said) and they climb all over the internet trying to claim that somehow that’s the reason why a country shouldn’t be Independent like nothing ever goes wrong in any country in the world ever bar Scotland

    That’s the best they’ve got, that’s it
    Well that must definitely mean we’re all flogging a dead horse then because their reasons against Independence are huge and insurmountable I can see that now, I’ve been deluded in my thinking, imagine me believing I could get up in the morning with all the rest of the folk in the country and do stuff for myself like everybody else in the world without the help and direction of that big Englandshire to support and look after me like my Mummy and Daddy

    It’s all become clear to me now the Yoons are Fraidycats feart they wont hear the alarm go off or miss their bus to work or be able to cross the road by themselves unless the big England’s there to hold their hand
    Or if something happens they wont be able to make a decision on what to do about it, Ah wee souls eh

    So we need to reassure the Yoons they’ll be alright and not to worry their little heads because although they’ll be leaving their Mummy England their Aunty Nicola will make sure they’ll be safe and if they need tucked in at night I’m sure in and Independent Scotland there’ll be plenty of volunteers to come round their house to make sure they’re


  166. Cactus says:

    Just watching Misreporting Scotland the noo..

    In the background shot, now noticing the new red light.from the Hilton building on the left, blue on the bridge, white on the light.

    Question Time from Stirling in 5 mins.


  167. Andrew Mclean says:

    Small Axe,

    Get back in line man! We are not letting you go anywhere without permission.

    Re your last post on the military, it’s obvious you don’t know the difference between a battle won, a battle lost, and a battle that is in the making, you are also very careless with the ordinance, you even seem to concede some of it to the enemy to use against us, and that is unfortunate. For you.

    Google harder this is zero rated foods
    raw meat and fish
    vegetables and fruit
    cereals, nuts and pulses; and
    culinary herbs,

    Anything processed, as in cooked foods are no longer zero rated.

  168. Liz g says:

    Smallaxe @ 10.17
    Your very welcome Smallaxe and we ment it.
    You don’t need to justify yourself to anyone especially not that piece of trash.
    Only thing is ….now I believe in thought crime being a thing.
    You are most definitely guilty.
    So please inform Mrs Smallaxe you have been sentenced to a good hard skelp oan the arse,which she is to dispense forthwith.

  169. Tam Jardine says:

    Wonder how many times we’ll hear the “4 times bigger market” in the next hour… probably the least safe statistic in history if you know anything about the methodology but by God if you say a stat over and over again it becomes “true”.

  170. scunner says:

    Anyone recognise the numpty in orange?

  171. geeo says:

    Couple of minutes in and dimbleby brings in the first fuck the SNP no surrender unionist fucking arsehole. ….

    Coincidence …No.

  172. Joemcg says:

    Another plant on QT? The Orangeman in the orange coat with eyes bulging respect the referendum shite again. It sounded like he said Cat Boyd was a IRA sympathiser off camera.

  173. Liz g says:

    Andrew McLean @ 10.41
    RE vat on the food…not forgetting that nearly all vat exempt food requires your power key to have money on it to cook it.
    And that will run down what’s left in the meter for heating.
    So while a baked tattie is cheep a healthy in theory in practice it dose require more from you’re budget than a bag of chips!

  174. Tinto Chiel says:

    Cactus @10.14: and now I come to think of it, we could do with some of your Glesca haikus.

    In your soul you are a poet, my friend.

    And your soup’s pretty good too. Must get some more coriander.


  175. Lochside says:

    QT..Stirling?….more like Larkhall. Who’s the Orange balloon giving the Anti Scottish REF diatribe in regard to the Trump Question?..FFS look around the audience…50% of the Scottish electorate voted SNP and Green…have the BBC ever allowed a representative audience in Scotland on this sham of a programme?The audience is full of orange unionist and ‘no’s
    And as for the panel..why is Merryn Somerset Webb on for the fifth consecutive time? Another rich opinionated English right wing sitting telling us to shut the fuck up.

  176. Smallaxe says:

    Andrew McClean:

    Aye Staff,please don’t put me on a report, next time, its a Courts Martial for me.

    Peace Always

  177. wull says:

    Breeks says:

    17 November, 2016 at 7:27 pm

    Breeks, I tend to agree with you. Would very much like to see the SNP talking up Europe, and being clearly and publicly in favour of Scotland retaining full EU membership. There is no doubt that that is what ‘Remain’ meant, and Scotland voted for it.

    It is simply incorrect to pretend that Scotland’s vote in favour of ‘Remain’ meant losing our actual EU membership, and Scots’ EU citizenship, while ‘remaining in the single market’.

    The question was not whether we want to leave or remain in the single market, but whether or not to remain in the EU. Full stop. And we voted to remain. There is no getting away from the plain fact that that means remaining full members of the EU. Nothing less than that was intended.

    If ‘Brexit means Brexit’ for England and Wales, as Mrs may keeps reminding us, then ‘Remain means Remain’ for Scotland. That is the message that should have been sent out loud and clear by the SNP and the SG.

    It is also the message that the rest of Europe needed to hear. In my opinion, saying it would have done Scotland the world of good. It would have been entirely honest, being fully in line both with the referndum vote, hence the people’s will, and with the SNP’s consistently stated policy on the EU.

    Instead, it seems to me, the whole thing has been fudged.

    The remain waters could have remained clear; instead, they have been muddied.

    I can understand the ‘strategic thinking’ behind the fudge. The SNP know that roughly 30% of their own members, and of those who vote for them, are not convinced of EU membership. They don’t want to lose their votes.

    But there is a big risk here. The SNP might just lose the votes of quite a number of the 70% of its supporters who really do want an independent Scotland to be a full member state of Europe. There might be far more than they imagine who are not in the least attracted to Scotland becoming a free-floating little country, like England now wants to be. The SNP takes its support for granted at its own peril.

    Many who are committed to independence and have voted for the SNP for decades, in order to gain this end, might find the idea of Scotland outside the EU not just unrealistic, but repellant. There are surely pro-independence Scots who also see themselves as Europeans. They are not in any way ‘Little Scotlanders’, an idea simply they can’t get their heads around.

    Here I am thinking of pro-European Scots born and bred in Scotland. But there are also ‘new Scots’ born in other parts of Europe, but now resident in Scotland. The SNP has to think of them too.

    Of course, maybe there is a game of ‘Dare’, or ‘Chicken’ going on here. The SNP strategy may be to push very hard and very publicly for something which they reckon will ultimately be unachievable, so as to be able to claim afterwards that ‘at least we tried, but Westminster could not, or would not co-operate’.

    I hope very much that no such strategy, and no such game, has ever existed, or ever will exist. I can’t believe that it does. It eems unworthy of an SNP which has a deserved reputation for stating clearly what it wants, and delivering accordingly. What is written on the can is what you get.

    In that regard, the SNP was not ‘politics as normally practised’. All the other parties, it seemed to me, openly lied and deceived, but not the SNP. It said what it meant, and did what it said. You could trust it. I want that to continue; I don’t want it to change.

    Yet it is hard to believe the message that is currently being put about, according to which the SNP would be content with a Brexit in which Scotland would remain ‘in the European single market’ while losing our membership of the EU and our EU citizenship rights.

    Yet that prospect leaves me completely cold, and does not correspond with what a ‘Remain’ vote meant at the time of the referndum. As a scenario, it seems to me completely inadequate, and in no way attractive. Sure, money is important, especially when you are poor, but man does not live by bread alone.

    The EU is not just about economics, or financial advantages. It is a cultural and political project of massive proportions, and many of us want to be fully part of it: a free and independent Scotland should be a fully-fledged participating member-state within the EU. Nothing less will do.

    The Scotland I know and believe in simply is, and always has been, for centuries, a European nation. Indeed, she is European in a way that – in all fairness – England never quite was, is not and never will be. I always thought that was one of the key principles the SNP stood for, and would never abandon.

    It seems to me that anti-European feeling should not be accommodated, far less pandered to, within the SNP. Insofar as it is allowed to fester there it might perhaps be considered – at least by some – a measure of our ‘Anglicisation’: more a sign of our having been internally colonised, rather than the exprression of anything authentically, or intrinsically, Scottish.

    Alex Neil seemed to get away with coming out publicly in that anti-EU line, even claiming that a couple of other unnamed prominent SNP people had gone the same way. It was said that he was ‘entitled to his opinion’, and even to express it, which may be true – even though it went against official SNP policy.

    But if he is so entitled, so too are others, who might not share his view. For one Alex Neil coming out in public in favour of ‘Leave’ I would have expected at least 10, if not 100 other prominent SNP people to come out just as forcefully, and even more vociferously, in favour of an independent Scotland being a full member-state of the EU. Which is simply official SNP policy, and has been for decades.

    I may have missed it – I can’t and don’t follow the media every day – but I am still waiting. So far, I did not hear even a whimper. Where have all the EU-committed SNP people gone? You would expect each of them to have a ‘guid Scots tongue in their heid’ – surely some of them could speak up, loud and clear.

    Of course, I understand that it is important not to foment divisions within the Party, or even to give the appearance that such divisions exist. Of course, if that happened, it would make the SNP a sitting target for the Unionist opposition and its media. Of course, modern politics is such that these are the kind of strategic games that seem iunevitable, and have to be played.

    Of course, of course, of course …

    Still, people will want to know clearly what the SNP stands for, if they are to vote for them. A ‘soft Brexit’ that keeps us in the ‘single market’ and, by the way, in the UK as well … Is that really it? Is that what the SNP really wants?

    Surely not.

    And, if they got that miserable pittance written into the Commons motion, they would ignore the clear majority of the Scottish people in favour of remaining fully in Europe, and vote instead in favour of Brexit at Westminster?

    Surely not …

    I hope very much that the SNP are not losing the initiative, or their clarity. I also hope the momentum towards independence is not being stalled, or wasted. And whatever the SNP’s strategy is, I do hope it will work, bringing independence – within Europe – as quickly as possible.

    Yet I can’t help feeling a certain unease with the way things are proceeding at the moment. Hopefully, that unease will eventually – and sooner rather than later – prove to have been misplaced. But I do wonder …

    The independence movement is wider than the SNP, but the SNP has so far proved our best vehicle for obtaining the goal. Let’s hope it remains so. That means proving itself able to attract new adherents, and worthy of the continued support of all those who voted SNP in 2015, including ‘loan voters’.

    The leadership cannot change Party policy at will, without the consent of the membership. They should give a clear signal that they are not abandoning their long-held commitment to an independent Scotland being a full member state of the EU. They should acknowlkedge that this is much more than just being a member of ‘the single market’. They should not give cause for anyone to claim that they are being disingenuous. They should play it straight with their own supporters, and with the general public. If it is true that their immediate aim is a soft Brexit that would keep Scptland – and, if possible, the rest of the UK (that too should be emphasised) – within the ‘single market’, they should also make it equally clear, with even greater emphasis, that their ultimate objective remains an independent Scotland fully within the EU, as one of its member states. In that way, they will also be giving the correct message to the rest of the European Union.

  178. Smallaxe says:

    liz g:

    If that’s your idea of punishment,bring it on. 🙂

    Peace Always

  179. Clootie says:


    …the very reason I seek Independence is for a society that sets out to help those in need. The attack on you and others by a unionist troll should remind us all of WHY we seek change. Do not be angry with him, pity him.

    Look at the positive. The short exchange highlighted the choice of values on offer between the unionist self interest and the alternative we seek.

  180. Bob Mack says:

    Merryn Somerset Webb is also an economics advisor to Scotland in Union . The coal of Unionists Eric Joyce went after for hiring Tom Gallacher an an economics expert. She is very biased.

  181. Chic McGregor says:

    Q.T. Why has no one said, in response to accusations of Scotland that having an indyref2 now because of Brexit would be unwarranted that Brexit was specifically cited as a material change which could trigger an indyref2 in the SNP manifesto.

    0/10 John Nicolson on that one.

    Cat Boyd, “I didn’t vote in the Brexit ref.”


    Not a good Q.T. night.

  182. Cactus says:

    Aye Tinto Chiel ~

    Music is poetry, poetry is music 😉

    “What you gonna do.. without water?”
    “What you gonna do.. aint no bread?”
    “What you gonna do.. over summer?”
    “Can you help to heal these visions from ma head?”

    Enjoying Question Time Scotland..?


  183. Tam Jardine says:


    Merryn Somerset Webb is on yet again because for the BBC she is the perfect choice for Question Time in Scotland. She is introduced as editor of Money Week… sounds to some like an independent expert. She speaks in a kind of laid back, confident style as if to say “of course what I am saying is right”.

    And of course she is involved in Scotland in Union who want to remove our acquiescence in the union and in so doing destroy Scotland as a nation state.

    Perfect BBC Question Time guest.

  184. Cactus says:

    And coriander.

    Cheers Pax.

  185. Liz g says:

    Smallaxe @ 11.20
    Well at least I didn’t tell Mrs Smallaxe….. photograph or it didn’t happen.
    Reserve the option to though!!!

  186. Cactus says:

    And Leonard.

    Cheers Leonard.

    You’re a star.

  187. Bob Mack says:

    @Tam Jardine,

    Somerset Webb is laid back——–as a newt !!

  188. Struan says:

    Pointy orangemen on question time so what’s New lol

  189. Thepnr says:

    Scotland in Union is Better Together II

  190. chic mcg says:

    The flaw in your argument is that the SNP has indeed said ‘Remain means remain”.

    Admittedly, scantily reported by the establishment media.

    Less so by the SMSM than the EMSM.

  191. HandandShrimp says:


    Merrydown Somerset Cider is a perfect guest…she is suitably weird as to make Scotland in Union look utterly alien and fringe.

    I see Siobhan’s brain has been addled by con trails too 🙂

  192. Cadogan Enright says:

    More stats

    BBC London ‘National’ TV news tonight reported that UK had only built 900 odd council houses in 2015. I thought ‘I remember something about this’

    So I googled this figure and found the Scottish Gov built over 1500 in 2015

    BBC Reported that affordable homes hit a low of 32000 in 2015 . So I googled this and found Scotland is now building 10,000 a year after exceeding its 30000 target for its outgoing 5 year session by 3500

    A case of the performance of the Governmant in England and Wales being reported without relevant comparison to the performance of other Nations in the U.K.

    Indeed Wales did 2400 last year and exceeding target like scotland

    Even tiny Northern Ireland is building 2000 a year

  193. Chic McGregor says:


    ‘Remain means remain’ comments from the SNP were more reported in the EMSM than in the SMSM.

  194. Still Positive. says:

    On the positives on QT: there were mostly Scottish voices in the audience; (the BBC thought they could trust a ‘No’ vote in 2014 but not in ‘Yes’ Dundee.) the audience was pretty equally divided on another indyref; they gave the old guy in the tweed jacket with the ‘Yes’ badge on 2 shots on camera.

    John Nicolson, himself said the audience was divided – that is in itself a good sign for indyref2. Stirling was one of the highest ‘No’ voting areas and also one of the highest ‘Remain’ areas.

    Hope they have all taken the survey.

    Looking good for us.

  195. Chic McGregor says:

    ‘This Week’.

    Yet again the ultra right wing neoliberal and Michael Portillo presented as ‘balance’.

  196. Pete says:

    Regarding my previous posts about welfare, I think I have been completely misrepresented and hopefully I may be allowed to set out my stall.
    I agree with Beveridge who devised the welfare state that it should be a temporary assist to allow people who hit hard times to get back on their feet but not a permanent state.
    To be clear I believe in the NHS being free at the point of delivery. I have no problem with certain services being outsourced as long as it is cost efficient. This is ideal for things like cataract surgery, hip replacement where people can be sent to dedicated specialist units which specialise in these conditions.
    Please remember that GP ‘ s are private contractors but you never hear socialists complain about this.
    We partly pay for dental treatment, optical services and again there is no outcry.
    I disagree with free prescriptions and would revert to the previous system.
    I have absolutely no problem with all the current welfare benefits but want recipients to abide by the rules and therefore I approve of sanctions as otherwise there is no incentive to get off benefits.
    I disagree with our MP, Mhairi Black who wants a free for all with no sanctions. I think she is just adopting student left wing politics which, I suppose, we all signed up to when at University or College.
    Age will mature her.
    I think I should make it clear that I am a pensioner who has been around the world, worked for 50 years and paid huge amounts of tax. I don’t think I should be getting all the silly allowances and benefits which the great Broon loved to dole out.
    I hope this has made my position clear and maybe you might not jump to conclusions about my views which are very much for the welfare state but with a reasonable amount of control.

  197. Tinto Chiel says:

    Cactus: I’m immune to QT ‘cos I don’t watch it, no licence. It’s much better for my mental health, as is coriander.

    Lochside: I worked in Larky from 1977 to 2013 and canvassed for Yes there and elsewhere in 2014. The O/O are like an annoying wean, noisy but largely ignored by the general populace. A few eejits and six-fingered banjo-players may remove the green bulbs from the traffic lights but the rest of the town just carries on quite happily.

    QT has always been bent but who in Scotland takes it seriously or even watches it? Its bias is so blatant it’s counter-productive.

    We’re winning, my friend. Vichy Vision is its own worst enemy.

  198. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    Pointy orangemen on Question Time

    One up for the Peffers theory of campaigning, then. =grin=

    I didn’t watch another big fix in the Scotland region of the EBC, what with Oxbridge-educated Somerset Webb being drafted in yet again to secretly represent the English Establishment while pretending she’s just another everyday neutral.

    But pace RP, I would have thought that any OO/Loyalist in public view (and hearing) is going to be nothing but a wonderful recruiter for indy among the fair-minded. These “lodgers” were told to shut up during indyref1, and “loyally” did.

  199. Meg merrilees says:

    Listening to the fiasco that is QT from Stirling.

    I live in Stirling – don’t recognise ANY faces.

    Is it just me or is there something distinctly odd about a black MP defending T May’s Brexit position on immigration?

    But then, why is Priti Patel a Pro-brexit minister?; Why did any women and Latinos vote for Trump?
    I can’t stand these people that pull the ladder up after themselves.

    As for the numpty in the orange jacket, and the women telling us that 17.5 million ‘the UK’ ( and that includes Scotland) voted to leave the EU. We could have scripted this word perfect.

    Cat Boyd just undermined any credibility by admitting she abstained in the EU Referendum.

    But a lot of the audience are doing quite a good job of putting the Scottish case for once.

    Merryn … Webb is exactly the kind of sneering, posh-voiced, over-confident, condescending english person that I dislike. Intensely! SMUG!

    Sorry to generalise, folks but she gets on my wick!

    Member of the audience can’t understand why Nicola wants another indy ref based on a material change…” what has changed in the those two years – JUST the Brexit vote!” are people really SO thick!

    Don’t know if I can listen till the end!!!

  200. Grouse Beater says:

    Meg: “Sorry to generalise, but she gets on my wick!”

    You’re not generalising, nor are you being rude.

    You’re stating the intensity of your conviction that she stands for the diametrically opposite of all you hold good and valuable.

  201. Smallaxe says:


    I thank you for your kind and wise words,my aspirations have always been,exactly as your own,sometimes it is difficult to keep to the words that I have always relied upon.

    “Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.”

    Thank you once again.

    Peace and Love to you and those to whom you give your love

  202. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Meg merrilees:

    Cat Boyd just undermined any credibility by admitting she abstained in the EU Referendum.

    That abstention thing seems to be quite catching these days!

    Saves one actually thinking and committing, I s’pose.

    OK for mere mortals, and dilettante middle-class revolutionaries maybe, but not too great if you have aspirations to lead. Eh, Kez?

  203. Tam Jardine says:


    There’s the rub though- she is there furthering Scotland in Traction’s case but she is not introduced as such. She is lobbying the public on their behalf but it is not disclosed. And every time she appears on QT she gets paid- paid to come across as an independent expert.

    She is apparently “neutral” and so her opinion comes across as considered and professional when she is actively campaigning to have Scotland reduced to a neutered region.

    Her agenda is hidden- it emerges when she bullshits about us living off England.

    The BBC think we don’t notice but we do.

    Some good comments from audience and panel tonight- and some zoomers too. I like Cat Boyd but while I can believe she abstained (in the eu ref) her fluffed answer that she was out of the country was abysmal. A bit of nerves maybe but you would think she has been asked the question dozens of times before! It was left to a member of the audience to say that her vote was pointless anyway because we’re getting dragged out against our will.

    I have a wee feeling a BBC researcher has looked into Cat’s twitter feed or done a bit of digging and found an achilles heel for Dimbleby’s crib sheet.

  204. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘Morag’ is on R5LIve right now.


    This is a wee time-note, so we can find it later…

  205. Still Positive. says:

    Tam Jardine @ 12.27

    Spot on.

  206. Meg merrilees says:

    Listening to R5 live – good discussion. Agree!

  207. Cactus says:

    Tinto Chiel ~

    Glad to hear it. Neither do I watch the BBC aye (at home)

    Cancelled mines way back early 14.

    On a guest tv again tonight, nostalgia.

    Scotland is the centre star, the keystone.

  208. Dr Jim says:

    A strange thing happened on QT

    After that QT I’m totally convinced we’ll win the next Indyref because in the past when Indyref was mentioned the Booing outweighed the cheers, this time it was definitely fifty fifty and that’s fantastic for a QT audience especially from Stirling (Weighbridge Englandshire) Scotland

    When the pensioners of Scotland wake up from their torpor next year and realise they’ve lost their pension increase due to triple lock removal and their winter fuel allowance is gone and the cost of living goes up so that their pensions are worth less then we’ll start to hear the moans

    Gin soaked bar room queen Merryn Somerset Webb says she talks to business and they’re more concerned over a second Indyref, I can only assume she must do that from a reclining position on her chaise whilst sipping through a straw her favourite pink perfume flavoured tasty beverage while her mind wanders in and out of consciousness, because it’s certainly not in the here and now reality the rest us inhabit

    Johnny Nicolson didn’t have to do anything tonight but let them eat each other
    One last thing, I don’t mean the lassie any harm but for God sake why is Cat Boyd on anything, I mean come on it’s just getting silly, I thought at one point she was gonnae cry

    Letting the Ukippy BNP NF types in was classic BBC (look at the state of Scotland) tactics
    Oh what a dreadful place Scotland under the SNP is My My how divided Sturgeon has made the place, Resign Resign I say

  209. Smallaxe says:

    I had posted this on off topic for Tinto Chiel (who should be in his bed!)

    I give you a song from The Kinks,we knew in 1966,it is now 2016,Change?

    Peace Love and Independence

    Remain means Remain

  210. Liz g says:

    Pete 12.08
    The welfare system you say you support.
    Can I ask is it the Beverage one or the current one?

    I will also make my position clear.
    Beverage system… is and was fine for it’s day,it suffers from not being evolved,and that’s why the social security system has become a political football.
    Every government has held its use and it’s cost over our heads for a lot of years now.

    This is wrong and our social system should be enshrined as a right not to be messed with.
    They do that for royalty by the way,they never play politics with it….it just is and will be paid for ….
    When it comes to our citizens being secure socially I demand nothing less.

    The current system it has been bastardised and tinkered with.
    It has also accrued a market value.
    And nothing will convince me that not only does an element of social engineering exist within it,that aspect of it has been developed to a frightening level.

    If there is anyone who can support sanctions after learning that they are not being applied as advertised but rather as means that gives government a power the absolutely should not have I will admit to you now sir while I would debate with them respectfully for a time,
    I would have a very low opinion of them as a human being. But would not wish that they came under the yoke of the powers they agreed a government should have.

  211. Joemcg says:

    Dr.Jim-how great would it have been if john asked her to name who she had spoken to? She would have buckled.

  212. Valerie says:

    That Merryn woman is a nasty, condescending piece.

    She was trying to make a point of going after Cat Boyd, leaning across Dimblebum to eyeball Cat. I don’t particularly agree with all of Cats views, but I know a sneery, posho fandan looking down on a younger woman, when I see it.

    She really pissed me off saying Scotland has its protest vote with the SNP.

    How fcking dare she?

  213. Meindevon says:

    I was listening to that lady talking really well on five live and thinking could it be our Morag? It appears it was.

    She was very very good. Well done her!

  214. ScottishPsyche says:

    Well I said I wouldn’t do it but I failed and watched QT.

    No declaration of the political affiliation of the laconic and dismissive Merryn SW. Cat Boyd had to basically declare her voting record for the last year. I’m surprised she wasn’t asked her for her tax returns as well. She did herself no favours with her ‘I’m so radical and edgy attitude and guess what I didn’t vote’. I always get the feeling its a game to the RiSE folk.

    The audience though. How can anyone say there is not unfinished business wrt the constitution? It was as rowdy as in the two weeks leading up to IndyRef1.

    The game’s afoot.

  215. Cactus says:

    In an independent Scotland, our headlines shall read..

    “Employment up in Scotland, and rising”

    A revelation of a revolution.

    Star = X

    Love Scotland.

    It’s one oh clock.

  216. Chic McGregor says:

    Indy a protest vote? What’s to disown?

    If you don’t protest to being shat upon, when will you?

  217. Cactus says:

    “Indy Ref NEW” (borrowed that from the excellent Alyn via iScot ~ good guy)

    Employment up 140,000.00, and rising.

    Crossword clue.. X down, X across?

    Answer.. Caledonia calling.

  218. cctxt says:

    Smallaxe at 12.31

    Thanks for that Smallaxe – I too hold those words close from the Desiderta – as young man 40 years ago I was much inspired by it. Takes me back.

    You make a great contribution to this blog and RESPECT is due to you and your calming and thoughtful influence.

    Peace to you and yours from “the first true border toon”.

  219. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Chic McG –


  220. Tam Jardine says:


    Merryn made a wee dig there with the protest vote nonesense- protest vote suggests all kinds of things: cavalier, kneejerk, petulant even. Definitely short term. That is simply wishful thinking on Merryn’s part.

    What we are in the middle of in Scotland is an orderly, civic and very positive revolution. It started a decade ago and has a decade yet to run before our newly independent Scotland beds in (IMHO)

  221. gus1940 says:

    Why can’t BBC Scotland give us a weekly Scottish version of QT with a properly representative panel i.e. normally only people on The Scottish Electoral Roll with perhaps occasionally the odd visiting ‘guest star’.

    If PQ won’t do it surely introducing such a program is an open goal for STV – I can’t see there being any copyright problem re the format.

  222. Cactus says:

    In the key of A minor..

    “A miner once told me, that he’d been down all day,
    Digging stones to pay for loans, he took out yesterday.
    A miner then showed me, his hands were full of clay,
    The gold is gone which keeps you warm,
    There’s nothing he can do or say..”

    ~ Breakers of the ground ~

  223. gus1940 says:


    RE the Great Edinburgh Train Breakdown of yesterday is it not a sad represenation of the ste bof the media in Scotland that their combined might seem to have been incapable of coming up of a picture of siad incident or some sort of track diagram to illustrate jusy why it cause such chaos.

    It is not as if the site of the incident on the Princes St. Gardens section does not provide plenty of viewpoints for photography.

    Do any of the Scottish papers still employ photographers other than for the fitba or do they just depend on agency for photos in the same way as they seem to for actual news i.e. except for Unionist press releases?

  224. Tam Jardine at1.27

    It will never happen if that is your timescale. We have never had a better opportunity to get out than right now. At theprsnt rate in ten years about one quarter of our population will be retired English people. It is already passing the 10% mark

  225. Meg merrilees says:

    Listening to the audience comments tonight on QT, I thought that several of the audience points were reminiscent of this website ( and possibly other indy sites)!

    The NO voters are easy to spot in the audience – arms folded- and I thought they were looking a bit uncomfortable tonight.

    Thankfully the BBC avoided the man in orange for the remainder of the programme!

    Just wonder – is there a crib sheet going round the opposition parties e.g. labour raising the problem with Scottish trains in FMQ’s and Chris Bryant mentioning Abelio tonight?

    Incidentally, my programme was shown with sub-titles (not sure how or why) but the text service spelt ‘question’ as ‘Csejtey’ when a Scottish audience member was making her point about Nicola wanting another referendum if there is a material change.

    Also wonder if Merryn wot’ser-name has ever been boo-ed? she was tonight.

    The audience showed themselves to be pro-indy and quite well informed and the old tired arguments were quickly rubbished.

    I think the game is definitely ON!

    Incidentally, thought Nicola was terrific in FMQ’s today. Ruth really is obnoxious and got short shrift, as usual.
    For once, Brian Taylor in summarising their exchanges on BBC Scotkand website said Ms. Davidson…”struggled, just a little, … in the caustic atmosphere of political debate”

  226. Pete

    Don’t follow you at all. If our National Health Service is “free at the point of need” nobody should pay for prescriptions. And particularly the well-off who pay the taxes should not pay for prescriptions that their taxes have already paid for. Your points mostly sound facile but not thought out.
    I suspect you think we are all daft.

  227. Liz g says:

    Just been reading the first children in need broadcast was back in the late 1920s on the radio.
    Doesn’t say if it was an annual thing since then.
    But the TV version has been broadcast every year since 1980 apparently.

    All that tax paid in by the so called Great British Tax Pay’er and there are CHILDREN IN NEED,what on earth have Westminster been doing with it all?

    Do the sanction and be dammed crowd ever ask that?

    If all that tax is being paid in don’t they ever think that they are being asked to pay twice by funding domestic charity?

    Do they never apply the logic that if Dog’s Trust were doing their job there would be less stray dogs not more?

    Do they never wonder that if charity is such a big TV advertising business it’s clearly going to need customers?

    Those are questions I never hear from the “as a tax pay’er I need to be sure the system is not being abused” crew….

    Were we all not supposed to pay into the system so that stuff like those stories we will hear on the BBC telethon did not happen here,was that not the social contract between us and the government?

    Am I missing something here?

  228. Liz g says:

    Meg Merrilees @ 1.54
    I got the same impression.
    Tell me did you wonder for a wee minute if Robert Peffers had snuck in wearing a tweed jacket and cool badges?

  229. Col says:

    I’m a bit late getting to the goings on tonight. The BBC are blatant as! Thursday morning I caught a brief moment of the Scottish news only to hear the SNP bla bla vs the UK government in comment. Correct me if I’m wrong but the SNP are the Scottish Government. I’ve noticed this line of down playing b4. Scoundrels!

  230. CameronB Brodie says:

    You are attempting to inform and enlighten an individual who ‘thinks’ the principles of contemporary social science are the guff of student politics. You are seeking to change a somewhat arrogant, anti-scientific position based on ideology, not a rational consideration of facts. There is also a considerable lack of compassion and humanity on display in said arrogance.

    Best of luck. 😉

    Itching to get my solutions out. 😉

  231. Smallaxe says:

    CameronB Brodie:

    Let it all out Cameron,it will do you the world of good.

    Peace Always

  232. Seumas says:

    Using employment figures for political gain is an insult to the intelligence. I was on the jobless register until April this year when i lost all my benefits and told my partner was to subsidise me. There was no point in continuing to sign on, am sure theres thousands more like me.

  233. CameonB Brodie says:

    I’m afraid I’m reaching the limit of my patients Smallaxe.

    Those who hold opinions that are not based on fact, should be mindful that this is a belief, not reality. It is an ideological position.

    Ideology does not provide a solid base for rational decision making and placing one’s faith on it undermines the potential to achieve sustainable solutions and strategies in the real world.

    Don’t get me wrong though, I’m definitely suggesting I know it all or that I’m the boss.

  234. CameronB Brodie says:

    …definitely NOT suggesting…

    Oops. 🙂

  235. Smallaxe says:

    CameronB Brodie:

    As I think you already know,I am a Humanist,I place my trust in science and fact,so obviously I agree with you Cameron.

    Good morning,by the way,excuse my manners,please

    Peace Always

  236. G says:

    There’s yer No-voting, £50k a year train drivers calling for the head of one of our most capable ministers. Got the message yet, folks? These people are the enemy.

  237. Nana says:


    UK frustratingly unclear about Brexit goals: Scottish minister

    Scotland is considering enshrining the ‘right to food’ in its own laws

  238. CameronB Brodie says:

    I can’t see you ever saying anything that would offend me mate. At least not intentionally. I’m not easily offended. Sorted. 😉

  239. Tam Jardine says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    Hi Dave- maybe my post wasn’t clear enough- I am not thinking independence in 10 years! I said “beds in” as there will be a period of flux and adjustment following not just a yes vote but also clearly after we actually become independent.

    I would call a referendum the day after article 50 is announced for 3 months down the line. They are prepping legislation for it right now.

  240. JLT says:

    Tripping over themselves as usual.

    The only thing that they are united on, is the usual mantra of ‘SNP Baaad’ and ‘too wee, too poor, too stupid’.

    One day, it’s going to catch them out badly …and that day might not be far away, especially if Brexit negotiations begin to go up in flames.

  241. wull says:

    Chic McGregor says:

    18 November, 2016 at 12:02 am


    Thanks for the comment at 11.55, Chic, and the clarification at 12.02, both of which are appreciated. I don’t read the English MSM. Hope the point was made that the SNP are still fully committed to independence in Europe, and will not be satisfied with retaining membership of the ‘single market’ only.

    Can’t say that that point of view is in any way prominent in most of what we hear not only in the media but directly from the SNP, when they outline their response to Brexit. Maybe they have put it on the back burner for the time being, in order to bring it back to the fore at what they think will be a more opportune moment.

    If so, maybe that will prove a successful political strategy in the long run. Can’t imagine it will impress everyone, however.

    And what happens if the SNP do succeed in achieving what is now their most immediate and most prominently proclaimed goal – that of keeping Scotland in the single market?

    At that point, the SNP will have had the feet cut from underneath them. They will be morally unable to fulfil their manifesto pledge. A very serious change in our material circumstances will indeed have occurred – Scots will no longer be European citizens, and no longer protected by the full panoply of rights which the EU guarantees – yet the grounds for holding a further indyref will have been removed. They will be told: ‘you said membership of the single market was enough; that has been achieved; so you have nothing to complain about.’

    And that’s Scotland stuck inside the new version of the UK which Mrs May’s Brexiting UK government is creating by the minute. The UK in which the Treaty of Union has effectively been abrogated, and Scotland is treated – for evermore – as if it was incorporated into England after the manner of Wales or Northern Ireland.

    Legally untrue, of course, but who cares about the niceties of law in the New UK that is emrging? What does law or history matter to a pirate state that sails the open seas, in exactly the way it wants, without the shackles of any membership of any wider Union? And without being restricted by any written constitution. ‘Sorry, Scots, you are outvoted; no matter what the old legal or historical books you keep referring to say, you have been incorporated; this is not about truth, it’s about power – and you lost.’ End of story.

    ‘And by the way, don’t imagine you have anywhere to go, or anyone to whom you can have recourse.’

    ‘You think you could appeal to the European courts? No way – you are not a member state. Even if we did allow you to win a few minor trading agreements with Europe, to butter you up – silly fool that you are – that doesn’t give you any real rights. European law has no power in brand-new Brexit Britain, to which you have been subjected – you even agreed to it yourselves. For that paltry thing, the so-called ‘single market’. Stew in your own juice …’

    ‘So now you want to appeal to the United Nations, or some other international court or whatever. Forget it, no chance. You are not a nation. Look at the UN list – you don’t get a mention. Only we – the UK of the Brexit – actually exists. Which means England, and you’re part of it, an insignificant little part that will never have any real say in anything. We have made sure of that, loser!’

    ‘You got your single market – just what you said you wanted, and that’s it, chum. And your dummy parliament – don’t forget it’s devolved, and he who devolves it can diminsih it, and do what he likes with it. He (Mr. Westminster Almighty) can suspend it or abolish it at whim, and will … Especially once the population of Scotland is composed mainly of retired English people enjoying the beautiful landscape, which is now theirs, entirely theirs …’

    Bye Bye, Scotland. Gone for ever!

    Make no mistake, whatever Brexit turns out to be, the UK government, the Unionist Parties and all their media lackeys will make it seem as if Scotland did get what the SNP said it needed, membership of the single market. It’ll all be lies, of course: lies piled on lies piled on lies. Lies without end. But we haven’t seen anything yet. These lies will come not in a barrage, as they did in 2014, but in a tidal wave – nay, not in a tidal wave but in an unrelenting tsunami – until the whole place is swamped in them.

    We shouldn’t deceive ourselves. What is at stake is the very existence of Scotland. The next few years will determine whether Scotland rises from the ashes as an independent nation on the European and world stage, or sinks into everlasting oblivion. Becoming a mere curisosity – the biscuit in the Brexit, a forgotten, tiny amd insignificant (if picturesque) little part of the New UK, which not only the English but everyone else will think of as England.

    I expect many people are fed up with politicians playing ‘political strategy games’ on them, or even seeming to.

    They don’t trust such games. They would prefer straightforwardness. Which could prove awkward in the short term, but would win through soon enough. Even very soon.

    Honesty remains the best strategy: ‘What you see is what you get’, and, ‘what we say we’ll do is exactly what we will do’.

    Come on SNP, say it loud and clear, without fear or favour – and keep on saying it: ‘Scotland is a European nation. Our objective is a free and independent Scotland within Europe. A Scotland that will take its full place in the European Union. A Scotland that will be a full member state of that Union, and not a subservient lapdog in the new – and horrible – UK of the Brexit.

  242. Smallaxe says:


    Good morning Nana,hope you are well.Thank you for your links,Kettle’s on.

    Peace Always

  243. davidb says:

    @ Tom Jardine 7:51

    I would pussy foot around making lots of fuss until after the French presidentials. If Marine wins there is a high likelihood the EU will implode. If we don’t have to run we should wait until it suits us.

    Independence is all. In or out of the EU is a different issue.

  244. manandboy says:

    The news of a billion+ barrels of oil found in the Barents Sea, must be reassuring to the people of Norway. Similar good news oil discoveries around Scotland’s coasts are, in contrast, treated by Westminster as bad news and played down by the BBC and their media allies.
    British Establishment Propaganda – pouring into the minds of millions of Scots, every hour of every day.
    Aye, Bonnie Scotlan’. The most brainwashed country in the Empire.

  245. CameronB Brodie says:

    Well said. Is it not astonishing that so many folks are unaware the British state presently denies them inalienable human rights?

    Scotland is in danger of sleep walking in to fully committed neo-liberalism, which over time, will result in catastrophic environmental degradation under a system of authoritarian capitalism.

    Without human right an individual has no protection from the state and can expect for nothing. Maintaining the Union is choosing the path to 21st century slavery!

    “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

    “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

  246. Ken500 says:

    No job available. Out of work. There can be a transition period. Until a position can be found.

    Continue to sign on. It protects people’s pension rights. Stamp credits towards retirement pension amount. A record for the future. There are suggestions that all (future) pensioners will have fixed statutory basic amount but just to be assured.

    People who have children who no longer receive child benefit payments because of income level. Should still make a claim. To protect main carers rights to basic Gov pension. Even through application is refused. It ensures an official record is kept of (points) credits towards basic Gov retirement pension. Credits are given for time spent of main prominent carers/parents child care years.

    In April the Scottish Gov could have the means to stop sanctioning people. No more food banks.

    Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence,

    The Unionist and green no Party. Want to cancel debt they have run up. Wasting £Million/Billions of public money on grotesque, monstrosity projects the majority did not want not funding essential services. Running up debt with no accountability. Then claiming they did not have enough money for statutory services. Demanding even more. Reneging on their own policies and responsibility. With no mandate.

    Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Essential services are not delivered and vulnerable people starve. Opting out by lying and blaming everybody else.

    Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence and responsible Gov.

    In Aberdeen the Unionist green and no Party are blaming children for knife crime in the City. They are blaming the pupils for not reporting a fellow pupil’s holding of an offensive weapon. Despite the fact the school authorities knew a pupil was carrying a potential weapon and reprimanded the individual. A white wash Report was withheld and not fully published to prevent disclosure of the elected members in a resulting tragedy. The death of a pupil which could have been prevented.

    The convicted assailant’s behaviour was reported to the representative of the said elected body. The parents of a victim of a previous, violent attack by the assailant behaviour to a deputy council leader and to a Labour/Unionist MP in the Constituency was not reported on. There was no relevant action taken. The council members are now debating how to stop a further tragedy. Blaming pupils for not disclosing relevant information.

    There is considerable road building work (£Millions) going on in a Council leader’s constituency, before the May elections. Projected spending in the constituency of another council official. Gerrymandering. The Unionist green and no elected Council has run up £Millions of debt in the City on grotesque, monstrosity non mandated projects of nominal value. Refused a Gift of £80Million to predestrianise the City favoured by the majority. Increased traffic chaos.

    Printing an illegal publication with public money. Gerrymandering. Breaking electorate rules. Kept reserves of over £100Million while claiming there is not enough for essential services. Not providing statute public service. No overnight homeless provision, adequate social care and funding, Not keeping class sizes down. No adequate provision in deprived areas or supporting transport links etc. No cohesive responsible leadership. Councillors not fit for public office but not censored or held to account. Breaking council code of ethics. Trying to ban Alex Salmond and SNP elected members from the City.

    Vote SNP/SNP in May 2017 for responsible governance. Vote for Independence.

  247. Smallaxe says:


    You are very kind my friend,I have,as I said,always tried to live by the Desiderata.Like you I first came across it when it
    was said to have been found in “Old St.Pauls Church Baltimore”
    in 1692,I have taken great comfort from it,as I hope you have.

    Thank you again,for your very kind and generous remarks.

    Peace Love and Tranquility to you and yours

  248. Ken500 says:

    The Unionist and green no Party who run up £Million/Billions in Counci debt on grotesque monstrosity projects and protests of nominal value. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Reneged on their own policies. Want to cancel Council debt. So they can do it all over again. With no responsibility and blaming others. They are not fit for public Office. .

    Vote SNP/SNP Vote for Independence.

  249. orri says:

    Thing is that not all protest votes are meaningless. Before it all went tits up and in to armed rebellion the civil rights marchers in NI had a valid point, not that they didn’t have afterwards. The same is true of the civil rights marches in 60s in the USA. The casual dismissal of the SNP as simply a protest vote is the kind of crass stupidity that led to conflict and those protests being taken over by extremists. To sneer at 50% of a ballot going to the one part is arrogant beyond belief. To further ignore that 45% voted for independence is the same.

    UKIP are a protest vote that’s taken seriously because just as those alternative candidates in the USA, arguably, swung the election Trumpwards so they took votes from the other main parties. The mistake Labour made and seem determined not to do again was to stand on a platform that a section of their previous voters was so opposed to that the Conservatives by promising to hold a referendum managed to lure them into voting for them. Unless they loose all sense of reality Labour won’t be making the same mistake again. May’s desperate attempts at avoiding democracy are aimed straight at that as are her signalling that it’s a long hard Brexit she’s after. The SNP can stick to their guns as pro EU even if it’s following a Norway model with little risk to their vote.

  250. Nana says:


    Good morning. Brrr its cold out today need two or three cups of coffee to warm these old bones!

  251. Smallaxe says:


    Chilly here also but blue skies and Sunshine. 🙂

    Peace Always

  252. Robert Louis says:

    Following some discussions above, thought it would be useful to link to the FM’s statement to the press on 24th June 2016 following the EU referendum vote, and Scotland voting to stay in the EU (not just the ‘single market’). Like some posting above, I too am very concerned at this apparent shift from remaining in the EU, to some kind of fudge about what is vaguely termed ‘the single market’. It literally reeks of spin doctor.

    From the SNP manifesto 2016, page 24 quote:

    “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people
    – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”

    From my point of view, and from what was clearly stated in the SNP manifesto, Nicola Sturgeon has NO MANDATE to keep Scotland in the vaguely worded ‘ single market’, her mandate is to keep Scotland within the EU

    Let me quote from that statement by the FM on 24th June;

    Nicola Sturgeon QUOTE: “But as First Minister of Scotland I have a duty to respond – not just to the outcome across the UK – but also and in particular to the democratic decision taken by the people of Scotland.

    As things stand, Scotland faces the prospect of being taken out of the EU against our will.

    I regard that as democratically unacceptable.

    And of course we face that prospect less than two years after being told that it was our own referendum on independence that would end our membership of the European Union and that only a rejection of independence could protect it. Indeed for many people the supposed guarantee of remaining in the EU was a driver in their decision to vote to stay within the UK.” (My bolding).

    So from my perspective, some kind of fudge about ‘the single market’ is not acceptable. As others have pointed out, access to the single market will still leave Scotland without proper EU access, legal protections from our frankly rabid right wing neighbours down south, or EU passport status. Then their is the damage which leaving the EU will do to Scotland’s economy – and it is already happening.

    Starting to get pretty hacked off at the constant fudging and spin. It is the very same slippery slope once occupied by Labour in Scotland. It will not end well.

    In the absence of a referendum and proper campaigning, you will NEVER get a massive majority in Scotland pro independence, because of the constant anti independence propaganda barrage from England, our enemies in the propagandist BBC and English owned and run press. The only way to get there is to set a referendum date and work for it. Sitting waiting for a majority to happen almost by accident is just dumb, with a capital D.

    FM statement link

  253. Ken500 says:

    The Councils have the ability to pay down their debt by responsible governance. Spend the money allocated on essential properly funded services. Not on grotesque projects the majority do not want. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

    Responsible governance and spending. Not unpopular vanity projects of little value. Properly costed schemes of high value. The ability to count and read a balance sheet might be an essential attribute. Sadly lacking in the Unionist and green no Party.

  254. Ken500 says:

    The SNP can negotiate a position of staying in the UK markets and the EU markets with cohesive protected EU rights with corresponding advantageous revenue payments/Incoming revenues. Support all angles and majority viewpoints. Best of both worlds. Access to markets, free movement in both directions with little economic disruption.

    This does not affect the continued fight for rights of Independence. Supported by EU partners. A cohesive pragmatic solution. Not a belligerent, intransigent position to rapidly changing circumstances. The position is not mutually exclusive but constructive to find a solution. Willing to negotiate.

  255. Another Union Dividend says:

    ASLEF was the first trade union to back the ‘No’ campaign and to affiliate to the ‘Better Together’ campaign. The union’s officer in Scotland, Kevin Lindsay, told delegates who had come from all over the UK, ‘You didn’t get asked on your way here to Edinburgh for a passport, you got asked for a ticket,

    BBC Question Time failed to mention Merryn Somerset-Webb’s membership of Scotland in Union Board.

    Daily Mail forgot to mention that as a former First Minister for Scotland who has been subjected to death threats, the House of Commons Serjeant at Arms had advised Alex Salmond not to use public transport on his own on security grounds, forcing him to travel with a member of staff.

  256. Bill McLean says:

    Smallaxe and cctxt – like you I read “Desiderata” about forty years ago and used it as a sort of guideline on how to live and treat others – I was also going through an extremely difficult time in my life and found Desiderata comforting. Smallaxe – You mention “Old St Paul’s Church, Baltimore” – is there in more info on the origins of this wonderful work? Thank you. Bill

  257. Valerie says:

    @Robert Louis

    I do sympathise with running out of patience, but I’m more than sure Indy is still the goal.

    The thing about what you perceive as fudge, Scotland being like Norway, is that its another tick box.

    To join on terms like Norway, would require Scotland to have full powers over immigration and finances, which means asking WM for that.

    As we all know, WM won’t agree to that. We need them to say that, so we can say, that means economic ruin for Scotland then.

  258. Thepnr says:

    Access to the single market will only ever be accepted by the EU if free movement of people is also adopted. I doubt the EU would ever budge on this.

    The UK Government will never accept free movement of people for any part of the UK in my view. So access to the single market for Scotland looks certain to be a non-starter. Anything else would be a fudge and whatever it’s called it will not be full access to the single market.

    Nicola Sturgeon has been reported in the last couple of days as seeking a Norwegian type solution. This is membership of the EEA and EFTA. If this is true then Scotland will have to contribute to the EU budget. Anybody think this contribution will be paid for by Westminster?

    No, me neither.

  259. sorry I hadn’t responded to everyone who replied to my post @17 November, 2016 at 2:58 pm
    But my only access to the internet is at my Local library which time limits me.
    there is nothing anyone has said that I would disagree with.

    As some others have pointed out Tom Holland is an Historian.
    Though what I hadn’t realise is, that Tom Holland was involved with Dan Snow in the celebrity “love-bomb” appeal to Scotland during the first independence referendum.

  260. ScottishPsyche says:

    Something really stinks with this rail dispute.Labour and Aslef are like wolves going after Abellio, the SG and Humza Yousaf. Remember Corbyn making all sorts of spurious claims about rail and CalMac tenders?

    Years of underinvesting by Network Rail and Scotrail before them means Abellio may be in the invidious position of sorting it all and then getting booted out. I think the incident at Waverley yesterday deserves greater scrutiny. As someone who travelled on a commuter line for years my memories of Scotrail are somewhat jaundiced.

    This feels like a campaign of disinformation.

  261. schrodingers cat says:

    I also read the Desiderata 40 years ago… but prefered the Considerata

    Always make a great noise and you
    will be noticed. Always shout
    the other fellow down, especially
    the dull and the ignorant, they are not
    worth listening to.

    Always mix with loud and aggressive persons.
    Compare yourself constantly with others,
    and make sure that you’re on top. There will always
    be lesser persons than yourself to beat.

    Be careful in business and make sure you crook
    the other person first. Be blind to virtue,
    it only covers the guilty heart.
    Don’t be yourself, be whatever is expedient.

    Be cynical about all things, especially love.
    Don’t give in to old age, keep pushing. You may be
    a child of the universe, but the only right you
    have to be here is at the expense of the other man.

    With all it’s glitter, money, palaces, fast cars,
    smart clothes, good food and wine,
    the world is a pretty rotten place,
    so keep screwing it up,

    and above all – show a profit.

  262. Grouse Beater says:

    Thepnr: “Access to the single market will only ever be accepted by the EU if free movement of people is also adopted. I doubt the EU would ever budge on this.”

    It will be a gross betrayal of basic EU principles if they do. I hope they do not. Though all population demography analysis and theory since Malthus and beyond show small populations prosper better and feed themselves better, than large nations, Scotland desperately needs immigration to sustain its economic health.

    On a different subject – vehicular infrastructure:

  263. galamcennalath says:


    My wife’s aunt had a framed copy in her bathroom.

    A suitable place for quiet contemplation.

  264. Smallaxe says:

    Bill McLean:

    All I can tell you Bill,is that when I found it,it was engraved on copper with the legend of St.Pauls Church.It is now attributed to Max Ehrmann.There is a spoken version on YouTube by Les Crane.

    I am sorry,that is as much as I know about it. I give copies to people who I think will appreciate it.I don’t know if you have seen my post about a framed copy that I was allowed to place on Bob Marley’s tomb, in his birthplace at Nine Miles in Jamaica.I think that it may be on off topic.

    Peace and Love to You and to those you Love

  265. CameronB Brodie says:

    schrodingers cat
    How about a blend of both philosophies? Will I get my solutions out? 🙂

  266. McBoxheid says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    17 November, 2016 at 8:38 pm

    @Pete says: 17 November, 2016 at 5:47 pm:

    “I Imagine we taxpayers are keeping you afloat”

    Many from the public school system who believe themselves well educated are anything but well educated.

    How very true. I speak from personal experience of the mistreatment at the hands of those Fort Augustus paedo’s, some of whom are due to appear in court in January.

    I got loads of O grades and Highers, but left school knowing very little of my own history and had very little idea about wee things like social skills, girls, etc. It’s a brutal and awful system that reinforces all the wrong things.

    I took me a while,I was clueless about life and very much on my own, but I got there in the end. The lies we were preached and the glorification of Britishness, in the Highland ffs! I did very badly at English history and asked why we were not taught our own. As an answer I got beaten. 6 formers took skivvies, I did not. The whole idea of self import and entitlement disgusted me even then.

    I’m rambling, but the point is, the people who rule at Westminster are the ones that believe in the righteousness of such a system and have been corrupted by it. The corruption, the sleaze, the entitlement, it all stems from an isolated education at a public school. Some are bad, other are much, much worse.

    We as a country need to escape it quickly and then think long and hard about allowing it to continue come iScotland.

    I’m don’t know if Pete was brainwashed at public school or by the gutter press. Either way, I hope he starts to see the light soon.

  267. Smallaxe says:

    schrodingers cat:


    Go Placidly

    Peace Always

  268. Macart says:


    ‘I doubt the EU would ever budge on this.’

    If the EU allow UK exceptionalism and a ‘special’ arrangement a la May’s ideal, it will spell the end of the EU. Those outside who pay in and adhere to the rules without direct influence, such as Norway, will quite rightly kick up an almighty stooshie and those member states who remain will also feel much aggreived that they had to jump through hoops and rules to attain membership which apparently the UK would be allowed to flaunt. The resultant damage to relations throughout the EU would be catastrophic to say the least.

    The chances of this happening are? Well I’d say fairly remote given the voting structure of the EU. The UK has few, if any, friends among the member states as I recall.

    So no, I can’t see them allowing it to happen either.

  269. Smallaxe says:

    galamcennalath says:

    “My wife’s aunt had a framed copy in her bathroom.”

    I have mine above the dining room table,I can read it there every morning,then again,the bathroom is an excellent place for contemplating!

    Peace Always

  270. Clapper57 says:

    @Meg Merrilees

    “Thankfully the BBC avoided the man in orange for the remainder of the programme”!

    Yes Meg, a tactical choice of colour assuring he would get noticed when holding up his hand to make a comment….that and perhaps his affiliation to some undesirable order with same colour as his jacket !

    And your other comment on Merryn ,Yes she was quite smug and she most definitely comes over as a condescending, annoying, and agenda ridden waste of space when forcing her unwanted ‘Scotland in Union’ opinion on Scottish independence.

  271. Smallaxe says:

    CameronB Brodie:

    Come on then Cameron,I’ve been waiting all morning for your philosophical enlightenment.

    Peace Always my friend

  272. Bob Mack says:

    We are fighting an enemy in retreat my friends ,If all they can offer is a broken down train they are in trouble. Their attacks are petty and wilful. We do however have an enemy within, which are the Labour affiliated Unions.

    I know the Scottish government works hard to Co operate with them but it is not reciprocated. In every field of Scottish government responsibility they are obstructive. I know this from recent experience. It is not the” shop floor” staff but rather the upper and middle management areas that cause the problems.

    Many chosen for Labour positions have strong union backgrounds and it is this sort of historic linkage that inevitably clouds their judgement.

    Overall though I think we are on the right road to success.

  273. Thepnr says:


    Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government KNOW the full membership to the single market can only happen with “strings attached”. The main one of course free movement.

    Not everyone that supports access to the single market want free movement.

    There is no need to shout from the roof tops about free movement when it is obviously (at least for now) a precondition of access to the single market.

  274. Smallaxe says:


    Your post reminded me of a rant that I had on O/T some time ago,this is part of it!

    For years we have been told to”get on our bikes” or “tighten our belts” by politicians wearing Armani suits and only coming out of the bar or restaurant to vote.This situation must be changed and maybe I am naive in thinking that a free Scotland
    could change,not only our own situation but could help give a positive example to the rest of the Planet.People are power and without them the privileged few are helpless and powerless.Power and the sense of entitlement that they have taken for granted for centuries must be wrested from their hands and put into the hands of socially and environmentally aware people who will think of the good of all.I truly believe that there are more good people in this world than bad ones.

    Peace Always

  275. G says:

    ScottishPsyche says:
    18 November, 2016 at 9:58 am

    “Something really stinks with this rail dispute.Labour and Aslef are like wolves going after Abellio, the SG and Humza Yousaf.”

    “As someone who travelled on a commuter line for years my memories of Scotrail are somewhat jaundiced.”

    I agree, the service was already garbage before Abellio took over. A lot of us hoped that a new operator might improve things, but it actually got worse. I think the main reason for it is ballooning passenger numbers catching up with decades of underinvestment. The recent infrastructure projects have finally exhausted people’s patience.

    I was attacked on here a couple of weeks ago for suggesting that there was a real danger of this being used to attack the SNP. Indeed, the attacks on them had already started. Well, they have ramped it up today.

    ASLEF has the travelling public over a barrel. They are paid a far higher salary than the job merits, purely because they can cause so much disruption by striking. When Edinburgh trams advertised 12 jobs paying £20-24k a year, they got 350 applications. That is under half of what train drivers earn. No surprise then that 15,000 people applied to Virgin Trains last month for 78 jobs.

    What *should* happen is that drivers are forced to reapply for their jobs at £25k. But imagine the disruption if that were to happen.

  276. Macart says:


    That would be my guess.

    Politics, when practised correctly, is the art of persuasion by debate. Sometimes the best way to to convince a person of a thing is to let them see the reality of a situation for themselves.

    Where words fail, pictures will do. Or rather actions and consequences in this instance?

  277. heedtracker says:

    Overall though I think we are on the right road to success.”

    The other side of that is working out where unionists, red and blue tories, actually want to be in the next few years and decades.

    Westminster’s going to scrap 6 Scottish MP’s soon. That’s a start. Well no, SNP minority Holyrood last time was a breakthrough for the BBC Scotland crew especially, and so on

    Neat summary here.

    The number of English MPs will fall from 533 to 501;

    Scotland’s will go down from 59 to 53;

    and Northern Ireland will see a decline from 18 to 17.

    Boundary Commission says its going to save £60 million too. Meanwhile, guys like Farage get measured up for their ermine and sometimes 40% in the UKOK zone dont bother voting at all.

    Its not rocket science, keeping planet toryboy in power for ever and ever amen:D

  278. CameronB Brodie says:

    It was only a question mate. Anyway, good things come to those that wait. 😉

    Have I just set myself up to be a spectacular disappointment? 🙂

    If it’s not yet obvious, this week, as is the case with most weeks, I’ve been mostly Winging it. Nice. 😉

  279. Liz g says:

    Clapper 57 @ 10.25
    Seeing some gossip on Facebook that Agent Orange from last night’s QT was a failed UKIP candidate and that he was on a BBC debate the night before Indy ref 1.
    BBC 2 with Neil Oliver apparently.
    Can’t confirm it though.

  280. Bill McLean says:

    Smallaxe – many thanks for that and about you placing a copy on Bob Marley’s grave. Great stuff. Peace to you and yours as well. Bill

  281. Fred says:

    Interesting posts this morning folks, thanks to Nana for the “Thousandflowers” link, hopefully the auditors will get a free rein at George Square post May.

    Smallaxe, bests as ever, thinkin aboot ye kid!

  282. Dr Jim says:

    The Labour party’s out to get Humza
    They know it, we know it, and they know we know it,
    So much so they’ve enlisted the assistance of their pals the Tories to help

    I suppose reporting shortbread’ll have to be brought in to the gang for a full steam ahead approach (see what I did there, trains steam)

    Humza was supposed to be interviewed but his train was 2 minutes late apparrently, 2 minutes shocking eh and fully justifies Better together’s or is it Scotland in Union’s excuses as to why he should be hanged drawn and quartered, head stuck on a pole adorning Glasgow Central for all to see

    I wonder what the next move will be when this one doesn’t work and the SNP increase their representation at the council elections, will Kezia and chums blame the electorate again, will Alex Rowley grow a pair, will Jackie Baillie buy a fully working calculator but more importantly will Murdo Fraser ever be taken to task over his use of sectarianism
    All these questions and more must be shoutily asked and answered by not slim but dim Ruth (I tell lies ) Davidson in her next appearance on FMQs the sequel

    I thought the funniest moment of FMQs was when Kezia thought she was being clever “accusing” Humza of travelling to Edinburgh by ministerial car when the train had broken down maybe she thought being a government minister gives you the power of flight or teleportation

    He went in the car because the train wiz broke idjit woman!
    he could have used his bike I suppose or the Labour party could’ve lent him some of Alex Rowleys pigeons to hang on to

    Sit down Mr Kelly!!

  283. Smallaxe says:


    Thank you my friend.

    Peace Always

  284. Smallaxe says:

    Bill McLean:

    My pleasure Bill.

    Peace Always

  285. Meg merrilees says:

    Smallaxe; BillMcLean

    Apologies to other Wingers for a long O/T post!

    ‘The Desiderata’

    I have an anthology of Max Ehrmann’s poetry. The book is called ‘The Ddesiderata of Happiness
    ISBN : 0-88396-009-5

    The introduction states:

    The world-famous poem “Desiderata” was not written in an ‘old church’ or by an ‘old church sexton,’ as many people thought. It was written in 1927 by the scholar and poet Max Ehrmann, and represents his philosophy on life. Max Ehrmann was born in Terre Haute , Indiana. He graduated from De Pauw university and did graduate work in law and philosophy at Harvard University. He was married to Bertha Pratt King , author and educator.

    After practicing law for many years, he joined his family’s business. After 10 years of business, Max Ehrmann retired so that he could devote all his time to literary work. As he told an interviewer toward the end of his life,
    ” At De Pauw, I contracted a disease which I have never shaken off. The disease was Idealism. I took it to Harvard with me where I studied philosophy. Because of it I did the thing in life I wanted to do -Writing.”

    Max Ehrmann’s writings reflect his deep concern for the social problems of the day. Such poems as “Complacent Women,” written in 1918, and “Washington D.C.,” written in 1924 about the oil scandals, are certainly just as relevant today. He searched for spiritual contentment, often turning to nature as in ” The Noise of the City” and “Away.” His philosophical writings are a search for truth and peace.

    Max Ehrmann died on September 9th, 1945.
    Unfortunately, it was not until the late 1960’s after people discovered the origin of the “Desiderata,” that Max Ehrmann was given credit for being an important poet. After reading this book, I am sure you will agree that Max Ehrmann should be considered one of the greatest spokesmen of the twentieth century.

    ” Be at peace with god, whatever you conceive Him to be. . . keep peace in your soul. . . it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.” Susan Polis Schutz

    The original book was printed in 1948; reprinted 1974 and subsequent edition – Athena international, 1978. The poems are complete gems.

  286. I see the infamous Scottish Whisky Association have decided to appeal the ruling from the Court of Session on minimum unit pricing for strong alcohol in Scotland,

    putting profit before the health of our citizens,

    and is it just an SNP bad thing from the elites of the SWA,

    SWA were with Theresa May on her begging tour of India,

    Whisky like Oil should be a blessing to Scotland not a curse,

    customs value on our whisky is £1,700,000,000.

  287. Smallaxe says:

    CameronB Brodie:

    Keep Winging it Cameron,we had some great music on O/T last night,Michael McCabe played some great stuff.I hope you caught it.

    Peace Always

  288. Smallaxe says:

    Meg merrilees:

    Thank you for all the additional information on the Desiderata
    it is very much appreciated,I am sure that I speak for many that words such as these can never be off topic.

    This is what I hope we are all striving for in an Independent

    Peace Always to You and Yours

  289. Tam Jardine says:

    Any criticism of the Scottish Governemnt’s handling of the rail network is insane. I have seen more significant investment in the rail network in the SNP years than I saw my entire life pre-SNP government. They have rightly prioritised the main artery of the network, Edinburgh to Glasgow (electrification and refurb of stations) but they have also built a new line. In Dundee the other weekend and amidst the amazing transformation I see a new station emerging.

    Of course there is disruption and of course trains break down occasionally. Lets put things in perspective- even the French with their amazing TGV network a few years ago managed to order almost 2000 trains too wide for their platforms. Just imagine if the SNP had overseen that one!!!

    The truth is Scotland’s rail network has suffered from under-investment for generations and Beeching cut with a very blunt scalpel. Condemnation of the network today for Kezia should be like a boomerang- what did labour do in the 2 terms of the Scottish Exec? Labour have been in power in the UK during the 40’s, 60’s, 70’s, 90’s and 00’s- what did they do?

    The outdated infrastructure the SNP have inherited are a condemnation of the union.

    By all means hold the government to account but this is all pure tribalism. Labour and the tories should be apologising for their neglect of the network during their nigh on endless hegemony over Scotland before making construction suggestions as to how things could be improved. Removing someone from their job because a train broke down would be grounds for constructive dismissal.

  290. Andrew McLean says:

    You didn’t answer my question, instead you made it more pertinent, why are you so concerned about those who may be using food banks and are not worthy in your opinion as they brought it on themselves. this is the bottom percentile in society, those in most want of the most basic of human needs, food.

    You say you worked for over 50 years, travelled the world, so have a lot of folk, but they tend to be more understanding, you are attacking the poorest of the poor? it’s a strange demographic to try and demonise.

    What about those who take millions and hide them in tax havens, then protest their love for their country? billions of pounds are lost every single year, what about those people, they too get all the benefits of our society, but steal from the welfare system, not out of dire need but wanton greed.

    The centres of excellence for elective surgery you praise, cost money “abiding by the rules” is we all pay out taxes, the rules are we all pay not just the PAYE, but contractors, directors, everyone. if I can also correct you not all doctors are private, some are full employees of the NHS.

    Pete can you reconcile this “I have absolutely no problem with all the current welfare benefits” and in the next paragraph ” I don’t think I should be getting all the silly allowances and benefits” Well Pete what is it? and if you don’t like whatever benefits you are on why did you apply for them?

    You say you approve of sanctions, when even the conservatives are thinking the use of sanctions are inconsistent and lack the “reasonable amount of control” you claim to wish for, but penalise those who were never meant to be penalised, that is why they the rules are being altered.

    As for student student left wing politics, Marx himself was damming on tramps and the aristocracy as he believed both were opposite ends of the spectrum, those who took from society but contributed nothing.

    Pete, for years the right wing papers have demonised the poor in our society, if you look at peoples perceptions on welfare abuse, they bear no resemblance to the actual minuscule fraud.

    You arrived on here on a bluster and ill conceived notion of a wrong, that even if it did exist I would expect pity and compassion would be the first reaction of a gentleman.

    No one here has jumped to conclusions on your character, rather formed an opinion based solely on your own words. Every time you post here you demean yourself more, you make people feel you are a rather nasty individual, heartless, uncaring and mean.

    And Pete, that’s just so sad.

  291. G says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    18 November, 2016 at 11:08 am

    “I see the infamous Scottish Whisky Association have decided to appeal the ruling from the Court of Session on minimum unit pricing for strong alcohol in Scotland”

    They are drug-dealing scum. No other way to describe it. Their chief executive, David Frost, has just gone to work for Boris Johnson. That tells us all we need to know about their outlook on social responsibility. They are using legal action to delay the inevitable, just like the tobacco companies did, to maximise profits at the expense of lives.

  292. Clapper57 says:

    @Liz g says:18 November, 2016 at 10:52 am
    Clapper 57 @ 10.25
    “Seeing some gossip on Facebook that Agent Orange from last night’s QT was a failed UKIP candidate”

    Well Liz…..that is a quelle suprise is it not…LOL

    Have a good day Liz

  293. Fred says:

    Thought Pete was a fanny at first, noo ah just think he’s an auld fanny.

  294. Ken500 says:

    Some Whisky Companies tax evade and pay no tax. The appeal will be dealt with quite quickly.

    The UK Gov will not give permission for the Scottish Gov to tax ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol. Leading to a massive cost to health, police, fire and society leading to poverty, deprivation and crime.

    The Tory/Unionists are arrogant, ignorant incompetents. They are destroying the world economy.

    The UK Gov is (illegally) taxing/tarriff the Scottish Oil & Gas sector at 40%. Losing thousand of jobs and revenues.

  295. Stoker says:

    Nana (11:12am)

    Well done, Nana, you’re our very own wee Miss Marples.

    What’s with the constantly changing image of the Rev on the Google results page? If you Googled ‘wingsoverscotland’ a few weeks ago we got a picture of the Rev when he was a wee whippersnapper.

    Then for the past week or so we had the bearded one and now we’re getting the Britain’s Most Wanted Psycho Neo-Nazi (picture cropped) skinhead look.

    If i didn’t find it so funny i’d be getting paranoid that someone somewhere was trying desperately to paint the Rev in a negative manner.

  296. Smallaxe says:

    Andrew McLean:

    I couldn’t help but notice that you referred to Pete as a gentleman Andrew,I would say he is a gentleman of three outs.
    Without compassion,without wit and without honour.

    Peace Always Brother

  297. sinky says:

    Scot Finlayson

    I hope the Scotch Whisky Association will be required to pay all the Scottish government’s legal costs for their disgraceful attack on democracy and on the health of our citizens.

    Despite its name, the SWA is mainly concerned about the profits made from cheap Vodka and Gin produced by the large multi national distillery companies.

    Their legal challenge is a salient reminder that although the SNP have been in government for nine years they are not in power in Scotland as the Brit Nats still control the media, large corporations, the bulk of institutions and our councils keep hiring yoons for most of the top jobs.

  298. Bob Mack says:

    So, the first question on Question Time comes from a founding member of the True Blues Orange Order Flute Band and failed UKIP candidate. Quelle surprise.

    More surprised at Cat Boyd though. Dismal performance.

  299. Ken500 says:

    The UK gov refused permission for the Scottish SNP Gov to take over the railways The Scottish Gov asked permission. The Unionists refused. Labour/unionist hypocrites. They are manipulating liars. Westminster is wasting £Billions of public funding on HS2. A complete waste of public money with no business case, which will make journeys throughout Britain take longer.

  300. CameronB Brodie says:

    Bob Mack @10:25
    Your description suggests ingrained corporatism.

    Corporatism can accommodate both extremes of the political spectrum and is extremely resilient to change.

    Ideology is the enemy of rational thought and the application of sustainable responses to real-world event.

    Culture is the fourth pillar supporting strategies towards a sustainable future, apparently.

    Think holistically man. 🙂

  301. Ken500 says:

    Did the Rail Union’s sabotage the line? They are ultimately responsible for rail/train safety.

  302. Nana says:


    I think I must have been a detective in a former life, either that or a ferret!!

  303. Andrew McLean says:

    Small Axe,

    I try and treat everyone with the respect owed to my fellow man until they prove not worthy of respect, then pity and compassion should be my shield, anger yes I get angry but that hurts me, that belittles me, why should I give someone that power over me?

    Pete, is someones son, he could be someones father, brother, friend, within that shell he has created, one of hatred to his fellow man, is someone who has a heart and a mind. For whatever reason he has come here, and today we can try and speak truth to him, its up to him whether he can change his ways, to look for something bigger than himself, to step from darkness to light if you will.

    And if we fail, what loss to us in trying? that is nothing in comparison to his loss.

    Every day, live if its the first day in a better country.


  304. heedtracker says:

    Its a lovely morning in Scotland and its another day in teamGB media land.

    From our liggers o the beeb,

    How can Facebook fix its fake news problem?
    14 November 2016
    From the section Technology

    to what my Facebook timeline thingeeerecommends I read this lunchtime. I probably dont have to:-(

    TIME TO GO: Sinking Sturgeon faces growing calls to RESIGN over shambolic Brexit threats
    NICOLA Sturgeon is facing growing calls to stand down over her constant grandstanding on Brexit and Scottish independence.


  305. Stoker says:

    Bob Mack wrote on 18 November, 2016 at 11:43 am

    “..the first question on Question Time comes from a founding member of the True Blues Orange Order Flute Band and failed UKIP candidate.”

    Now, there in lays an idea for the billboards project. The BBC using unidentified rabid bigots on their anti-Scotland political programs.

    Maybe even create a collage of exposed QT faces to include others such as that skank Merryn and who she truly is etc etc.
    A sort of QT rogues gallery.

    Let the public know exactly what “Aunty’s” up to with their licence money.

  306. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ ASLEF
    Do you support human rights? If you do, you must support Scottish independence. That’s logic not ideology.

    “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

    “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

  307. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Go Placidly”

    Better still – Go Indy.

    And for any of those who have not yet completed ‘The National Survey’, here again is the link:

    Two million respondents needed by 30th Novemeber. Still a bit to go.

  308. Smallaxe says:

    Andrew McLean:

    It is of little wonder why I call you Brother!

    Like myself,your Heart is in your words.

    Peace Always Brother

  309. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Gerry Hassan
    I’m sure there’s space in FAN-BOY’s shabby tent of deminished BEING, if only Pete would move over for you.

  310. Chic McGregor says:


    I hear what you are saying and agree with an awful lot of it.

    It is a battle for survival for Scotland which must be won.

    However, just to pick up on a couple of points.

    “A very serious change in our material circumstances will indeed have occurred – Scots will no longer be European citizens, and no longer protected by the full panoply of rights which the EU guarantees”

    Well that isn’t necessarily true and it isn’t up to Westminster.
    The EU could decide to accord EU citizenship to Scottish residents if it wanted and there is nothing Westminster could do about it but complain. Scottish residents would still be able to travel and work in the EU without visas. And that is not as unlikely an outcome as it might first seem.

    Also the ECHR would still be available post Brexit until such time as the UK decides to leave it. Every non EU European country is also a signed up member of the ECHR, it isn’t EU only.
    Furthermore, the UK leaving the ECHR might well preclude such future options as joining EFTA or rejoining the EU, so despite the hard right being long opposed to the ECHR I expect them to be rather more circumspect in that regard than they have been in the past, at least until a post Brexit deal is clarified and repercussions understood.

    I do agree with your point that if the Scottish red lines can arguably be claimed to have been met, then that would undermine the justification for an indyref2.

    However, Brexit is by no means the only justification which can be found if and when needed.

    Basically if indy support in the polls goes over 60%, an indyref2 will happen.

    Yes, I know – the establishment propaganda machine will fight hard but the currency of that has been falling, not just in Scotland but Worldwide.

    I ‘blame’ it on the spin doctors. They have had a similar effect on how politicians and establishments are perceived as football agents have had on the once beautiful game.

  311. Tam Jardine says:


    Next time a winger is on QT (probably best put yourself down as a tory to get on) the question should be:

    “How can the BBC justify Merryn SW appearing in 3 out of 4 (or by that point probably 4 out of 5) of the last Scottish Question Time programmes and how can the BBC justify concealment of her role as advisory board member of Scotland in Union- a hardcore unionist organisation who want to neutralise Scotland”

  312. Bob Mack says:

    @Cameron B Brodie.

    The problem is that this particular brand of Corporatism does NOT support the full band of the political spectrum. It seems to derail at any hint of SNP or other indy groups.


  313. Pete says:

    Andrew McLean
    Oh dear, Andrew, you come over as a very reasonable and courteous person, which is great.
    However, you do tend to pick out a few points from my posts and take them out of context and make me out to be some kind of monster.
    Let me try once again as I don’t think there is too much dividing us.
    On specifics, I said that GP’s are self employed apart from employees of the practice.
    Obviously, doctors working in NHS hospitals are employees. Can we agree?
    Regarding my benefits, I’m talking about winter fuel allowance and free prescriptions, bus passes, etc. As I seem to be entitled to those, I just partake as do others. Possibly I could decline but life is too short to waste time on nonessential bureaucracy.
    My only gripe is that too many folks appear to abuse the system. As you say, I can accept that the amount lost, in the grand scheme of things is probably not great but I would prefer a tighter system which encouraged people to live useful lives. I don’t think we do people any favours by being lax in doling out taxpayers money. In other words, tough love.
    Easy money encourages idleness and bad habits.
    Anyway, I have a busy day ahead and , unlike some of the contributors here, don’t have the time to write endless repetitive and nonproductive diatribes.

  314. Andrew McLean says:

    Small Axe,

    Me?, I am just another man, corrupted, sinful, and imperfect.

    But if I look hard enough, I can see a glimmer of light to a better world, a new dawn.

    This transcends politics, its what is at the Heart and Soul of the independence movement, a desire to create a better, fairer, more compassionate country than this one, for all Scots, regardless of race, colour or creed.

    I wounder why anyone would object to that.

  315. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. the SWA. Commercial greed and a sense/ideology of social entitlement, IMHO. All part of the “Structural Violence” that divides us.

  316. Andrew McLean says:

    too many folks appear to abuse the system,

    Pete, can I ask you this, what if you are wrong?

  317. Bob Mack says:


    I can’t speak for the rest but I am definitely sure I have earned the right over 60 odd years to spend my time writing whatever I like When I like.

    You sound like a human being without a soul or empathy unless it involves yourself.

    You are actually more to be pitied than scorned.

  318. Smallaxe says:

    Andrew McLean:

    As I said,Brother

    Peace Always

  319. Tam Jardine says:

    Further to posts on the railways- I was checking out the timescales. I had forgotten the Scottish Exec only had railways devolved in 2005 so it is not even as if the Scottish Exec under labour had long to do much to the rail network. Pre 2005 it has been in Westminster’s jurisdiction

  320. heedtracker says:

    “Easy money encourages idleness and bad habits.
    Anyway, I have a busy day ahead and , unlike some of the contributors here, don’t have the time to write endless repetitive and nonproductive diatribes.”

    Its one o’clock in the afternoon. Your busy day ahead starts 7 or 8 hours after some contributors on here have started theirs, at 7.30 AM, you toryboy.

    Toryboys and the real world, never shall they meet.

  321. Andrew McLean says:

    “Easy money encourages idleness and bad habits”

    Is that Jeremy Bentham perchance, from his manual on political economy?

  322. Liz g says:

    Bob Mack @ 12.42
    Aye Bob your not kidding,someone somewhere has really done a number on him.
    Ma Tax
    Ma Time
    Ma world view
    Ma pure motive’s
    But I think I’ll save MA pity for a fair few others first.

  323. K1 says:

    Pete is a ‘former’ Wings contributor…ahuramazdaamawrightanabdyelseismisunertauninmagreatinsightintaescroungerswhoshouldbepurgedfaesocietyasitsthemthatstherealproblem.

    We’ve heard this repeatedly utilising the (his) ‘exact’ same ‘phrasing’…and a patronising prick tae boot. How sad that he cannae keep away, him wi such a ‘busy’ life an aw…


  324. K1 says:

    Just tae clarify, he’s no aboot ‘tough love’ he’s aw aboot ‘tough shit’.

  325. Macart says:


    “Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.” Captain G. M. Gilbert, the Army psychologist , Nuremberg trails

    He wasn’t wrong.

    As soon as you lose empathy for a demographic, a group, a minority, a single human being, call it what you will. You can justify any act, any attitude no matter how vile against them.

  326. heedtracker says:

    Every little helps, Graun reportage. Its an interesting idea actually writing to advertisers like Lego directly and asking them all why they DO advertise in Heil and Express open sewers in newsprint.

    Good on you Bob Jones. (Hope he’s a Dr Jones, sticking it to the nazi’s Hollywood style)

    “Lego has said it will no longer run toy giveaways with the Daily Mail in response to a parent complaining of the newspaper’s “unashamed discrimination”.

    Facebook user Bob Jones wrote to the Danish toy company last week and raised concerns about Lego’s tie-ins with the newspaper in light of headlines that he said “create distrust of foreigners, blame immigrants for everything, and as of yesterday are now having a go at top judges in the UK for being gay while making a legal judgment”.

    In a post that was shared on the social media site 22,000 times, he wrote: “Lego, to me has always been an inclusive product,” and asked the company whether it intended to continue brand partnerships with the Daily Mail.

    On Saturday the company responded on both Twitter and Facebook: “We have finished the agreement with the Daily Mail and are not planning any future promotional activity with the newspaper.”

  327. Liz g says:

    Aw you tax paying Winger’s…just out of curiosity….now that we have had a good deal of sanctions and capping.
    Has anyone had a Tax reduction yet?

    Them that’s good wi figures….can anybody give an estimate of how much the average person’s tax will be reduced by,after every one has been loved back to work?

    Jist askin..

  328. Andrew McLean says:


    Can you explain this, I said
    “Pete can you reconcile this “I have absolutely no problem with all the current welfare benefits” and in the next paragraph ” I don’t think I should be getting all the silly allowances and benefits” Well Pete what is it? and if you don’t like whatever benefits you are on why did you apply for them?”

    Your answer is more confusing that your first reply!

    “As I seem to be entitled to those, I just partake as do others. Possibly I could decline but life is too short to waste time on nonessential bureaucracy.”

    How did you proffer to partake and equally how could you decline? And why would that involve “nonessential bureaucracy.” whatever that is?

    You don’t make sense Pete, honestly you don’t.

  329. heedtracker says:

    Liz g says:
    18 November, 2016 at 1:31 pm
    Aw you tax paying Winger’s…just out of curiosity….now that we have had a good deal of sanctions and capping.
    Has anyone had a Tax reduction yet?

    PM Cameron is the more you earn, the less tax you pay PM. From the Mirror, 2015ish,

    “PM said he would raise the 40p tax threshold from £41,900 to £50,000 by 2020.

    To sugar the pill he also announced the basic rate before you start paying tax would rise from £10,500 to £12,500.

    While a worker on £12,500 would save £500 a year, someone earning £50,000 would keep £1,900 extra.

    Those earning up to £123,000 would be £484 richer.

    Someone on £12,500 would save £500 a year, while someone on up to £50,000 would keep £1,900 extra.”

    Its not happened in my pay packet.

  330. wull says:

    Chic McGregor says:

    18 November, 2016 at 12:17 pm


    I hear what you are saying and agree with an awful lot of it.

    It is a battle for survival for Scotland which must be won.

    However, just to pick up on a couple of points.

    Thanks, Chic, for your helpful and enlightening comments. Much appreciated.

    We must indeed win the battle.

  331. K1 says:

    What you ‘save’ on your £12,500 is also a ‘cheat’ as your National Insurance contributions effectively ‘reclaim’ that ‘saving’ as your earnings increase even just slightly above the (current zero income tax) £11000 threshold.

    It’s a staggering con actually, here if any one doubt this, is an income tax calculator, just muck about with altering the ‘gross income’ and ye can see the NI contributions begin to soar and of course combined with the income tax you immediately start paying just above the threshold, the combined amounts effectively ‘reduce’ the ‘claimed’ savings.

    So on the face of it, if people who are at the minimum wage end of the spectrum, start to increase their hours even a little, or take on a second job to ‘make ends meet’, the NI hammers them the second they go over the current IT threshold. It’s a circle of shite at the ‘bottom’ end of the system.

    The ‘top’ end is a lucrative bonus system for those who don’t have ‘ends’ that need met.

  332. CameronB Brodie says:

    That’s the ‘poverty trap’, that is. Nasty business with it’s own particular spatial flavour.

    Spatial inequality and urban poverty traps

  333. K1 says:

    Yep Cameron. True that.

  334. Fred says:

    @ K1 well sleuthed sir!

    Anent Humza, I recall a previous transport minister was hounded out of office by a pack led by Shortbread’s Raymond Buchanan over some snow. Buchanan vanished after being fun-oot telling lies.

  335. Legerwood says:

    Tam Jardine @ 11.26 am

    Here, here.

    Almost from day 1 of Abellio taking over the contract last year the opposition parties, especially Labour, and the union’s have been out to get Abellio

    As well as electrification of the Edinburgh-Glasgow line there is work being carried out on electrification of the line north to Perth via Stirling.

    Abellio has also ordered new trains which will be delivered in time for the completion of the electrification. The previous contract holder despite knowing that the new Borders Railway was due to open and that longer trains could be used on the new electrified line to maximise the benefit from electrification did nothing about getting more trains to service these developments and the growth in passenger numbers.

  336. Bill McLean says:

    Meg meerrilees – Many thanks to you for the lnteresting information on Desiserata’s writer. Bill

  337. McBoxheid says:

    Smallaxe says:
    18 November, 2016 at 10:41 am


    Your post reminded me of a rant that I had on O/T some time ago,this is part of it!

    For years we have been told to”get on our bikes” or “tighten our belts” by politicians wearing Armani suits and only coming out of the bar or restaurant to vote.This situation must be changed and maybe I am naive in thinking that a free Scotland
    could change,not only our own situation but could help give a positive example to the rest of the Planet.People are power and without them the privileged few are helpless and powerless.Power and the sense of entitlement that they have taken for granted for centuries must be wrested from their hands and put into the hands of socially and environmentally aware people who will think of the good of all.I truly believe that there are more good people in this world than bad ones.

    Peace Always

    Smallaxe I sincerely hope you are right and enough good people come to realise their potential before the dark ages return.

  338. Smallaxe says:

    Macart and McBoxheid

    I thank you, both, for taking the time to write replies to my posts.With people like yourselves on our side,it proves what I said in my “Rant”.
    “I truly believe that there are more good people in this world than bad ones”

    I consider you both to be the former.

    Thank you both sincerely

    Peace Always

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