New world records
It’s hard to know where to start on picking apart the torrent of misrepresentations, distortions and flat-out untruths that “Better Together” campaign director Blair McDougall was allowed to get away with in the space of a few short minutes during a rather powder-puff interview on last night’s Scotland Tonight.
So let’s just pick one at random and see how we get on.
About 2m 55s into the show, McDougall says this:
“All over the world – and I’ve been lucky enough to go all over the world – people are desperate for the kind of relationship we have in the United Kingdom, for that kind of union that we have in the United Kingdom.
Across Europe, across the Americas, across Africa even, they’re trying to come together because they recognise that there’s strength in numbers, and because they recognise that we’re stronger when we work together with other people.”
The first question that leaps out is what Blair’s been doing going “all over the world” on the No campaign’s behalf, when only people in Scotland have a vote in the referendum and “Better Together” has made a major issue out of not accepting donations from outside the UK. But let’s focus on the second bit.
Wikipedia lists “active separatist movements” in no fewer than 29 countries in Europe alone. (That’s 29 countries, not 29 movements – numerous nations have more than one group seeking independence, including the UK.)
That’s on top of the countless dozens of countries which have achieved independence since World War 2 alone – this list of 53, for example, omits not only recent additions like South Sudan, but also obvious cases like the division of Czechoslovakia into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, India’s independence from the UK in 1947, Yugoslavia splitting into seven separate states, and all 15 nations of the former Soviet Union.
We haven’t been able to find a single definitive list of newly-independent countries in the modern era, but if we compare the number of sovereign states in 1945 (71) with that of the present day (206), the general direction of travel seems clear enough.
The list of countries who have merged together in the same period is rather shorter. As far as we’re aware, it’s just one nation long – Germany – and the formation of West Germany and East Germany was, of course, never a decision of the German people in the first place, but one forced on a shattered, defeated country by the victorious Allies for their own political ends.
(There are, to be scrupulously fair, a small handful of nations who seek to claim or reclaim territories that they consider to belong to them, usually against the wishes of their inhabitants – Argentina and the Falkland Islands will probably be the case most familiar to British people – but that’s not the same thing as peoples “trying to come together because they recognise that there’s strength in numbers“, let alone being “desperate” to do so.)
Blair McDougall has set a high standard for lies since fronting the “Better Together” campaign, but suggesting that there’s a worldwide yearning and trend for greater unification, rather than greater independence, may well merit some sort of medal for services to bare-faced dishonesty. We look forward to his attempts to top it.
The first question that leaps out is what Blair’s been doing going “all over the world” on the No campaign’s behalf
He hasn’t been going all over the world on their behalf and he didn’t say he had. There’s enough BS in what he does say without inventing more.
Was looking forward to the “Blair McDougal is a liar” headline
Bliar has a porky pie face.
The Yes Camp have Duggy Dug sniffing oot the keech.
The No Camp have Porky Pieman depositing a torrent of floaters.
Well why has he been all over the world? and why has he been talking about groups who want what ‘we’ have in the UK ?
He is head of BT ‘s campaign and he has been all over the world talking politics..but not on BT’s behalf?
Maybe this will explain why Blair is allowed to spout such crap:
http://auldacquaintance.wordpress.com/2013/06/23/the-blooodless-war-of-independence/
This was indeed a huge lie, but more shocking was the acquiescence of the hideously ill-briefed John McKay in a lie just as great ie that the Unionist parties have all signed up to ‘more powers’ for Holyrood after a No vote. McDougall could hardly believe his luck in being spoonfed such a canard.
“…people are desperate for the kind of relationship we have in the United Kingdom, for that kind of union that we have in the United Kingdom.
Across Europe, across the Americas, across Africa even, they’re trying to come together because they recognise that there’s strength in numbers, and because they recognise that we’re stronger when we work together with other people.”
Unless you´re a Westminster party promising a referendum on leaving the EU.
If you want a definitive list of countries that have declared independence in the modern era, you should be able to get it from this list here, and just sort it by “Date of last subordination”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation#Sortable_list
Although it misses out the ones like Kosovo, Taiwan and South Ossetia who don’t have membership of the UN, so even it isn’t a definitive list. You’d think someone would have done such a thing.
“… … trying to come together because they recognise that there’s strength in numbers”
An admirable objective but (unfortunately for Desperate Together) not mutually exclusive from seeking sovereign independence. The thing is the UK is not about coming together – it’s about the dominance of one and the electoral subjection of the other.
There was of course the United Arab Republic, the short lived Union between Egypt and Syria. It last all of three years, 1958 to 1961, when Syria seceded from the Union. Thats the only voluntary example of countries merging I’m aware of, although I suspect that the populace of both countries were not exactly involved in the decision. It was very much driven by a Syrian drive to remove Communist influence from that country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Republic
Interestingly Egypt continued to use the name “United Arab Republic” until 1971. An interesting precedent for the rUK, continuing in name after September next year?
The Scotland Tonight ‘interview’ made me angry.
John MacKay essentially bent over and let Blair McDougall do what unionists seemingly are allowed to do to Scottish ‘journalists’ these days.
Embarrassing.
He looks like a snake eyed used car salesman.
If he wasn’t for the bile and lies he enthusiastically spouts, I’d feel sorry for Blair McD, as he is so obviously out of his depth…
Anyway, I suspect that at least part of his ‘been lucky to go all over the world’ schtick refers to his time (around a year) spent in Rwanda. He was employed by (to boost his New-Labour apparatchik credentials) the Tony Blair ‘Africa Governance Initiative‘ and was deployed as an ‘Adviser’ to the Rwanda government – presumably advising them they would be ‘better together’ with their bigger neighbour DRC – which if he did, and they followed his advice, would explain why the Rwanda government got into international hot-water over its contact with and support to various entities in DRC, which in turn contributed to the UK government stopping all its official aid (via DFID) to Rwanda – although presumably the UK government was still picking up at least some of the tab for Tony Blair’s Africa Governance Initiative and its intrepid ‘expert’ (an ex-SpAd!?) advisers…
The thing that comforts me re BT’s campaign is Blair McD’s track record: not only was his Rwanda gig not exactly a roaring success, Blair McD was David Milliband’s Labour Party leadership campaign organiser – yes, that campaign, where the favourite, ahead in all the polls, with the biggest MSM backing, with the biggest financial backing, and with ‘community organisers’ on the ground, LOST!
“Was looking forward to the “Blair McDougal is a liar” headline”
Tautology. By the end of the campaign mothers across Scotland will be warning their weans against telling “a McDougall”.
The first question a good journalist asks when his interviewee makes a generalisation is name one.
Can the YES campaign not ask the STv and BBC journalists just to ask the simple question?
I asked Blair on Twitter this morning why there so many more nations than in 1945 if the world is begging for union. He said: “mainly colonies and formerly oppressed soviet states. We not in either category. They all now trying to come together though.”
I asked about all those countries who left UK rule. He said: “Theirs was colonial relationship. Some think ours is. I don’t. I also think Scots aren’t too W/P/S (wee, poor, stupid) to thrive in bigger union.”
I asked the same first question to Rob Murray of Better Together at the weekend in the middle of a twitter conversation. That turned it into the end of the conversation. How rude.
“He hasn’t been going all over the world on their behalf and he didn’t say he had.”
Technically true, but he implied it pretty hard.
Severin Carrell talking about Duggy the Dug over on the Guardian. Wings Over Scotland’s Project Fear (poster) gets a mention’ too!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/jun/25/scottish-independence-duggydug
“… … we’re stronger when we work together with other people.”
I agree with that principle. If you replace “work together” with “governed by” then I cease to agree with it.
Keeping the “work together” in there – why didn’t the UK work with the UN Security Council and avoid the invasion of Iraq?
I know it’s been said before but one of the big problems Yes faces is a biased/tame media. I want an MSM that vigorously examines BOTH sides of the argument. If I’d been interviewing Blair (or Anas or Johann etc) they’d have known they’d been in an interview!! And there are others, on this site and others, who are a damn sight more articulate than me and could have made mincemeat of the scare stories.
But they get away with it time after time.
Tautology. By the end of the campaign mothers across Scotland will be warning their weans against telling “a McDougall”.
Nice one, Rev.
And they will do it with an Eleanor Bradford accent.
McDougall is like a younger version of ex-CIA Chief George Tenet – same eyes:
http://media.salon.com/2007/07/what_george_tenet_really_knew_about_iraq.jpg
So the simple question “are there fewer countries now than 25 years ago or more”? eluded John.
The most noticeable trend in recent decades is for old smaller countries to re-appear under the umbrella of larger groups like the EU. Scottish independence, rather than against the flow is with the zeigeist for small is beautiful.
Not the most cheerful individual Blair is he? What do they feed New Labour? raw cabbage and tripe?
Ray
They all now trying to come together though.”
I don’t think any have voted to dis-establish themselves and merge with another country though. He is being economical with the actualite
On Monday, 24th June, Blair McDougall said on Scotland Tonight, that it will be made clear, well before the referendum, which additional powers will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament in the event of a ‘No’ vote.
The previous day, I asked Ruth Davidson the same question at the Better Together campaign meeting in Kirkintilloch.
She said we won’t know which additional, powers would be devolved until after the referendum.
One of these positions cannot be true!
I think probably, Ruth Davidson was telling the truth and, as usual, McDougall was lying through his teeth.
Another investigative job for the “Truth Team” methinks. Can we have a list with citations (e.g. government statements) from ANY of these myriad of countries wishing to return to the political union we are ‘blessed’ with in the UK?
Hello? Anyone there?
Bliar McDougall the ugly face of unionism.
Duggy the Dug should be set on Mr McDougall. Once he catches the stench of lies, oor Duggy will pee on his leg.
To be far more fair to Blair McDougall than he deserves, it is probably wrong to call him a liar. A liar is someone who knowingly imparts a falsehood. I very much doubt that either Blair McDougall or anyone else in Bitter Together is still capable of recognising the truth.
The sad fact is that they actually believe the crap that they spout. Having had the thought that it would be most inconvenient for Scotland’s independence campaign if there was a worldwide trend for nations to voluntarily forfeit their sovereignty in favour of an asymmetric and undemocratic union with a much larger neighbour, Mr McDougall was so enamoured with the idea that he decided to make it his very own “truth”.
My final paragraph was to be a summary of my personal assessment of McDougall. I gave up when the asterisks outnumbered all the other characters combined. One thing I will say, however. It is absolutely clear to see that he is in that job as a reward for services to British Labour and not on account of any evident ability.
Technically true, but he implied it pretty hard.
Oh, come on. He didn’t imply it at all, you inferred it from nothing. If we catch people out on ‘lies’ that we’ve invented for them, that just gives them ammunition with which to rebut the genuine claims of lying. There are more than enough genuine lies – a swarm of them – coming from BT without inventing new ones to waste our time on.
They say that 65 per cent of adults in Scotland are overweight or obese. Bliar must account for a good 30% of that total.
“Oh, come on. He didn’t imply it at all,”
If not, why mention it? His personal travels have no relevance to the campaign. If he uses them, on the other hand, he’s suggesting a connection.
“They say that 65 per cent of adults in Scotland are overweight or obese. Bliar must account for a good 30% of that total.”
I don’t think it’s very productive to slag off our opponents for their personal appearance as a general rule anyway, but with the FM on our side that really is the pot calling the kettle a fatso.
@ianbrotherhood
Now that you’ve mentioned it, he does indeed have that George ‘slam-dunk’ Tenet look. From the picture above, I was thinking more along the lines of Shrek, myself!
It was a very bad performance by interviewer and interviewee, bare-faced lies by one and a completely missed opportunity for proper journalism by the other. I had thought STV were improving, becoming more bold, but this was poor. We are lucky to have Mcdougall in post though, he’s such an erse. A sitting duck once he’s actually put under proper pressure which will surely happen in the next year. We hope.
I watched the interview last night, and the only thing to come out of it, was the man was obviously lying every chance he got, and if the interviewer had any balls he could have nailed him half a dozen times easy.
It was nothing but a load of tosh, and I doubt if anyone would have believed any of it.
Hail Alba.
@Dal Riata-
The test-tube spawn of Tenet and Shrek?
How much more post-modernist could it get?
‘Bodyshock! The Man Who IS a Fourteen Stone Testicle!’
IMO the key words are relationship and union. Relationship is the concept of the social union of which AS speaks. Union is the state where Westminster speaks and we have to obey.
A) He made an error in using relationship and had to change to speak the truth, or
B) It was a deliberate atempt to segue to the unpalatable truth by fronting it with the cuddly concept. Your choice.
As to world travel, I have been to Eire, Gold Coast now Ghana, Jamica, USA, Mexico, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Sweden, Finland, France, Belgium, Germany, Italy. 9 deliberately gave up on the UK, 6 the UK is giving up on and only Mexico is indifferent.
I dont believe McDougall and, oh boy, doesn’t it show up what an unpleasant personality the UK has.
@Davy: “It was nothing but a load of tosh, and I doubt if anyone would have believed any of it.”
I will have to disagree with you on that point. We have to recall that for the last 30+ years, viewers of the BBC in Scotland, and the other broadcast media, and the MSM in general, have been fed a diet of “Britishness” as a natural state, and a generally good thing. The absence in the interview of ANY challenge to these statements will simply reinforce the current level of understanding by MOST viewers.
Why do Coka Cola and Pepsi spend billions on advertising? To reinforce their message. BT do the same, “ably” assisted by the media. I hope that the 16 week “neutral” period in 2014 will be long enough to duo all the propaganda till then.
I agree. On the point about nations merging, one additional example I can think of is Yemen. But the thrust of your argument is entirely correct.
I’m really struggling with understanding what he was thinking about when he said that “across Europe, across the Americas, across Africa even, they’re trying to come together”.
Apart from the reunification of Germany, I really can’t think of any examples of two countries joining up recently.
Could he possibly be thinking about the tendency to create supranational organisations such as the EU, the AU, NAFTA, etc.? In which case he’s absolutely right, of course, but the UK is a country, not a supranational union of independent states, so that comparison is invalid.
The Blair Mc. interview was something you could find in the Dr. Goebels propaganda handbook
If you tell a lie,the bigger the better
Maybe McDougall’s looking at the really really really long-term, and this is what he’s on about:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fPmbxuC0YCI/TVbqGEvNCII/AAAAAAAAHAQ/ZEUMEaEo6Zg/s1600/pangaea_graphic.jpg
He is talking about the EU, AU and other continental bodies, the confusion exists because of his false assertion that these unions resemble the UK.
The only current coming together I can think of is Puerto Rico with the USA, where the last referendum had 50+% unhappy with the status quo and 60% preference for becoming a State of the USA. However the referendum was flawed and Obama has said there must be another one, but this time the USA will pay. I wonder if the offer to pay will affect the outcome?
@ ianbrotherhood;
DeLorean’s have too small seats.
It would be nice to hear McD’s take on the fate of the Chagos islanders sold out by the UK (Labour actually) – declared to be “non-natives” and left to rot unwelcome on other people’s islands – but not, of course, the isles of Mother Britannia – probably because they were the wrong colour. Every time these poor people have had some vague recognition of their rights they get sabotaged by their former fellow citizens of empire.The latest wheeze was having their homeland declared a natural protection zone making it impossible for them to even have an economic basis for any return home. It was denied – of course – that this was the intent and when information came out that this indeed was the intent of the action a British court declared the evidence invalid as it was leaked diplomatic material. No that’s English justice actually – does the southern justice system always take precedence in such matters over the northern one in matters of empire?What kind of free and equal union is that?
I would love to hear Alistair Darling explain the rationale for Labour’s Island clearances to descendants of the Highland clearances. Have Gordon Brown explain explain TWO opium wars run by the British Navy on behalf of the Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha cartel while they’re at it since he’s so keen on celebrating the BE. There is a good reason why the Sun set on the Brutish Empire long ago and now its time for the Northern Lights to twinkle goodbye as well. Better late than never.
Free countries join (and leave) free associations as they find it useful to do so. The UK is far past its use-by-date.
OT but does anybody have an idea of how many Scots (or even UKs in general) will lose their automatic right to work in the EU if the European connection is cut? And have plans been made to find employment for them? I think we should be told.
The Unionist response to Duggy Dug: Liar MacBulldog
“All over the world” etc…..
I’m sure oil producing states would love to join the UK and give their oil revenues to Westminster.
Looks like Yes have switched tactics to the negativity of which they accuse No. Probably the shortening of the odds has them worried. Don’t worry, the Scottish press has Salmond backing No. Personally I think it’s Swinney boosting the pension fund.
More powers that are meaningful are not going to be given to Scotland. The Parties won’t agree and other parts of the UK won’t agree.
Any agreement between them would need to be very detailed otherwise it could be challenged later by any Party, and probably would be. Nothing substantial could be done before the Referendum. Though they might put together just enough to fool people.
Labour and Conservative Governments, once they were in power, reneged on giving Devolution. There will always be circumstances which will allow them to say they can’t do it just yet.
The existing Devolution only happened when the UK economy was doing well and it cost the transfer of 6000sq mile of Scottish waters to be transferred to English waters, plus a voting system designed to stop one party getting control.
Tony Little @ 3pm
I hope that the 16 week “neutral” period in 2014 will be long enough to duo all the propaganda till then.
Problem is that (a) the UK government is not bound by this and can still make political announcements effecting Scotland right up to 14 September 2014
but (b) the Scottish Government is restricted from making announcements in the run up to the referendum date.
Also do you honestly think the BBC “National” TV will suspend all subliminal pro British programming such as the “Great British Bake Off”?
A level playing field my ***** and as far as I can tell, the supine Scottish government is just accepting this,
Interesting Blair Dougal and been all over the world and Hague had been all over the world, getting the same response from everybody everywhere! No body in the world wants Scotland to be Independent. It’s amazing!
@Linda’s Back
Oh, I agree completely, and wasn’t presuming that the BBC would remain entirely neutral, but I was (obviously badly!) trying to make the point that the YES campaign appears to be relying on the ‘softly, softly’ approach. This may well be successful, and I am open to persuasion, but I remain worried that this last chance for Independence will be lost through a failure to get the message out.
I agree with many posters who rely on the ‘word of mouth’ process, and can accept that this is an important aspect of the next 15 months. But the “background” to the independence referendum has been created by the MSM and BBC in Scotland over the last 30+ years. The 2W2P2S mantra is the default position – often worded differently, but that’s the message. This is just more of the same.
Will this (can this) be overcome in the next 15 months? If it isn’t, then Scotland is really in the keech (as Duggy would say)
I agree with Paul above – I’m tired of this constant conflation of the ideas of cooperation between nations and political union – and particularly coming from Labour politicians who for all of their history have been championing working people in all countries – were they actually wanting a big political union all along? And As far as I remember they were extremely late converts to the idea of the European Union.
People upset with Scotland Tonight…im sure as the campaign ramps up people like Blair MacDougall will find some rather taxing questions coming their way, could very well be setting himself up for a fall here.
“but you said back when that more powers were agreed..”
“No i didnt John, you did!”
“So you cant confirm extra powers if Scotland vote No?”
“Err”
“No?”
“No”
“Im John Mackay…GOODNIGHT!”
While people getting comments in on MacDougalls appearance, only thing i would like to say is “I wonder what the Lovechild of Robbie Coltrane and Ruth Davidson would look like?”. That is all
@Jiggsbro Completely agree with you.
@Rev “His personal travels have no relevance to the campaign. If he uses them, on the other hand, he’s suggesting a connection.” – Surely any relevant life experience can be called upon during any kind of interview, just because there is a connection now doesn’t mean he was representing BT at the time.
Wow! I came to this page to study and learn more before I make up my mind which way to vote. Is this the Nationalist approach? Attacks on personal appearance?
Surely a confident ‘side’ has something more positive to say rather than resort to school yard insults? Does not reassure me that Scotland is mature enough to run itself at all!
Don’t be silly! A bit of mockery is all part of the game. And if you imagine this epitomises the entire Yes campaign then you really haven’t been paying attention.
Roisin, The Yes platform have nothing to say except “scaremongering”. No policies, no proof they can survive alone in the big bad world without help from everyone else. It’s not really an independence campaign, more Salmond’s get out clause. He collects his P45 on 19 September 2014.
Union Railroad
Do you write for the Scotsman? If not, you should.
A positive view of Scotland attributed to Blair McD.
“All they need to do is get us to drive the used car off the car lot; if it breaks down after that then so be it.”
No idea where the quote is from – you’d have to ask the author – you’ve probably seen this anyway!
http://logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/project-fear-giving-itself-jitters.html