Junkies, tramps and thieves
Fear and lies work. Over many decades (and really for centuries) the Unionist parties and the media have succeeded in persuading a large percentage of Scots that they’re beggars, scroungers, vagrants and “subsidy junkies” dependent on the ever-generous charity of England to keep them from starvation.
And in terms of the facts, that hasn’t always been an easy sell.
At times, hiding the truth about Scotland’s wealth from its people has been a task requiring subterfuge and secrecy at the highest levels.
And when faced with expert calculations proving that since the discovery of North Sea oil Scotland has subsidised the rest of the UK to the tune of tens of billions of pounds, and would in fact have been in significant surplus over the total period – even including the last couple of years of supposed £15bn “black holes” – that inconvenient data was quietly ignored.
According to 2013 figures from Fraser Of Allander Institute economist Brian Ashcroft – husband of former Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander and a committed Unionist – an independent Scotland would have more than balanced its books from 1980 until the present day and currently be sitting on an oil fund of tens of billions of pounds to cushion the blow of current low revenues.
And it wasn’t for want of asking – SNP politicians had been agitating for control over oil revenues and the creation of an oil fund since the mid-1970s.
So strong was the clamour, in fact, that the Conservative election manifesto in October 1974 actually promised to create such a fund, called the Scottish Development Fund:
But Labour won the election, suppressed the McCrone Report, and insisted that the oil would run out in a few years anyway so it didn’t matter.
Norway, meanwhile, having also discovered oil in the North Sea, used it to create a sovereign wealth fund in 1990 which is now worth approximately £658 billion.
Now, we knew all this already and to a large degree it’s spilt milk. Oil revenues are low now, and the fact that Scotland has been left impoverished by its oil riches because successive Labour and Tory governments at Westminster squandered the money on huge tax cuts and bribes for the rich in (primarily) the south-east of England is a matter of historical record about which little can be done.
But this week, after an(other) bombardment of newspaper hype about how abysmally bankrupt Scotland was after the latest GERS figures, we learned something strange.
Despite the collapse in the oil price, Norway – which produced roughly twice as much oil as Scotland last year (around 1.64m barrels a day vs around 860,000) – somehow still managed to make 218bn Krone from it.
That’s just short of £20bn at current exchange rates.
Yet according to GERS, Scottish revenue from around half that much oil wasn’t £10bn, but just £60m. In other words, Norway made more than 170 times as much money per barrel from its oil as Scotland did at the exact same time from oil selling at the exact same price.
The primary reason for this is the incredible mess successive UK governments have made of the economy – chiefly for ideological reasons, but also through incompetence – and the enormous tax breaks they have to give the oil industry when times are bad.
The Thatcher government of the mid-1980s privatised the national oil company (Britoil, formerly the British National Oil Corporation), whereas Norway kept its industry mainly in state hands.
BP, which took over Britoil in 1986, pays very little tax on its North Sea profits.
The upshot of the combination of privatisation, tax breaks and tax avoidance is that the UK is in effect paying multinational companies to take our oil away.
The ostensible justification for this is that it enables the “broad shoulders” of the UK to protect jobs in the industry. But there’s little evidence of that plan working.
We appreciate that we’ve just given you quite a lot of information to take in in a small amount of time. So allow us to summarise:
1. According to figures from a respected pro-Union economist, if Scotland had been independent since 1980 it would currently have a substantial surplus, even after the last two extremely bad years for oil revenue.
The Scottish Exchequer would have zero debt and tens of billions of pounds in the bank to protect it from a sustained oil downturn, even if it had exactly matched reckless and wasteful UK government spending over the entire period.
2. Furthermore, it is beyond question that the rUK, not Scotland, has been the recipient of cross-border subsidies over the past 40 years or so. Prof. Ashcroft calculates that even factoring in considerably higher levels of public spending, Scotland has only had £95 back for every £100 it sent to Westminster.
3. Despite the current low price, Norway made a very healthy profit on oil in 2015-16. In fact, even allowing for the fact that Scotland has considerably less oil, it would have been almost enough to completely wipe out Scotland’s “deficit”.
4. The fact that Scotland’s income from oil was only 0.6% of Norway’s (per barrel) – an astonishing figure – is a direct result of decades of UK government mismanagement, and the selling off of an incredibly valuable public resource to a private sector that avoids paying tax on its profits.
5. It therefore follows that under different management, and a different political ideology, an independent Scotland could still be extracting a huge amount of money from the North Sea.
(One possible way would be to renationalise the industry. This would be a huge and controversial step, and EU law would require market-price compensation to be paid. But there’s no better time to be paying market price for oil-industry assets, as we’re told they’re currently literally worthless.)
And yet despite all this, a YouGov poll in the Times today finds that half of Scots still believe the lie that Scotland benefits financially from being in the UK, with less than a quarter believing the truth.
Scotland, in short, has Stockholm Syndrome. Endless years of being relentlessly told that the nation and its abundances of natural wealth are a terrible affliction borne by the heroic UK have seeped into the national consciousness.
The battle to persuade voters of the reality is the greatest challenge facing the Yes movement. It’s not easy to shift misconceptions that have been battered into people by the combined might of the state, the press and a self-serving political elite for their entire lifetime. But it’s a battle that simply must be won, and the starting point is to arm ourselves not with grievance and conspiracy but with the cold, hard facts.
Scotland, let there be no dispute about it, has been heinously robbed on an epic scale for generations (which can be partly redressed in any future debt negotiations), but far more important is the future, and the truth about Scotland’s future is that it can still be a rosy one as one of the world’s most naturally fortunate nations.
The only way that will ever happen, though, is if we stop being grateful to thieves for relieving us of the burden of our treasures.
Al Capone, who bribed journalists, news baron, cops, politicians, etc, said that everybody read newspapers, but some were dumb enough to believe them. He also ran soup kitchens for the down and outs.
Aha! I knew it all along!
That fishy whiff from Westminster!
We junkies need to go “Cold Turkey” from W/Minster
it’s the Best Cure.
Peace,Love and Independence
No Scottish unionists argue against Norwegian independence,or Latvian or Dutch or anybody else’s . Scots however would not be able to do what everyone else does and it is this insane assertion that is the heart of the unionist argument and has hypnotised our country.
If we are the only people in the world incapable of running our own affairs , then logically we must belong to a separate category of humanity , in other words we are a kind of sub-species.
Any other people in the world would be revolted by that assertion and it’s about time we were as well.
Maybe it’s time we told our English friends that they are the real subsidy junkies.
After all, once they leave Europe formally and lose the hand-outs they got from membership, where else can they get free wealth but from Scotland?
More BBC Radio Scotland bias on coverage of Nicola Sturgeon Indy Ref2 conversation launch.
Critical comments from the three anti indy parties but no quote from the Greens who have MORE SEATS than the Lib Dems and should always be included as the 4th party in Scottish Parliament to provide balance on Indy and always in preference to the Lib Dems.
Time this was pointed out to all broadcasters and can anyone come up with a snappy response to the “stick to the day job” jibes.
Wooooftt Sir:
Keeping and saving info.
Take that was not off the cuff and took a bit of prep ?
The main reaction to the Rev’s latest article must be anger. Anger at the way Westminster has treated Scotland. Anger that many britnat Scots’ politicians contributed to that mistreatment. Anger that they continue to do so. Anger that so many gullible, Cringe-indulging Scots accept such treatment. Anger that the media in Scotland is determined to paint the worst possible picture of Scotland’s future.
Time to channel the anger – in any and all ways that further the cause of Scotland’s independence.
People need to be made angry. Screw all this “a positive campaign always beats a negative one” nonsense. No it doesn’t as was demonstrated 2 years ago.
It’s way past time that the SNP got the gloves off. WAY past time.
@Sinky to Unionists
“Ok; but why don’t you guys win elections in Scotland ?”
So maybe we need to take action to Defend Claireridge from this assault so there is a manageable future for the industry
What always gets me is that money in Scotlands budget over and above what Scotland raises is borrowed by the central bank not given to Scotland by England. That could only happen if England were raising more money than they spent but that hasn’t happened for a long time.
England cant give Scotland money that it doesnt have, so its borrowed money!
It seems to me that the oil industry has been driven into the sand, solely for the purpose of making it look like that we cannot manage on our own. To squander such a natural resource such as oil in the way the UK has done should result in criminal charges of gross negligence. Is there any way to crowd source fund a legal challenge against the UK government on this point?
Sorry Rev, OT in the first few postings but “whilst I remember”:
Figures from August 2014 by the BBC I can’t be bothered checking more recent ones (having an easy day after wonderfully finishing 13 days worth of effective 24/7 work including a flat out final night’s work and packing for a preset courier pickup):
“The most recent Scottish government figures, not including oil and gas, show Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland.”
This is probably the answer to the Unionist “Scotland exports 4 times as much to the rUK as the EU”.
Well, the rUK exports 25% more to Scotland than Scotland exports to the rUK, so they would lose more than we would if for some reason which would have a lot of revolting companies in both the rUK and Scotland, they cut off that trade. When I can be bothered I’ll look up the most recent comparative figures presumably from GERS.
Ironically by the way, the work is from the EU and is very welcome business I might not get or might not have got in the first place last year as well, if Scotland leaves the EU.
Oh, that’s a keeper.
Great post Rev.
I respect and trust John Swinney but I could have shaken him as yet again, interviewed on Sky News, he went off on a tangent when asked about GERS and Spain.
The SNP need to succinctly and definitively answer these questions time and again to get rid of these misconceptions. They are their own worst enemy in the overly reasonable answers they give.
Please if anyone is reading this, demolish GERS and point out the failings and address the Spain veto nonsense.
That request was made to the SNP, obviously the Rev does this on a daily basis!
We have to destroy GERS and then tell people that GERS is destroyed. We also need to have a positive answer to ‘What is the position then?’.
Two starters
GERS is not ‘accounts’; it is neither true nor fair and nobody audits it. At least the EU does better.
GERS is not the Scottish Government’s. It is produced by Westminster Departments and quangos
And they were pretty gallas about their theft too…
link to youtube.com
Don’t Get Angry, Get Indy.
Rev,
Should we not perhaps consider producing a WBB-style booklet dedicated solely to the history and reality surrounding Scottish Oil?
Something long enough to get the facts across without being so long as to bore or confuse?
Basically this article in booklet form than can be distributed to every home in Scotland.
We know we can raise the money easily, why wait?
Excellent article.
Our cause is not helped by such as ex-SNP speechwriter Andrew Collier who helpfully (from the BBC’s point of view) asserted on GMS that the GERS figures make selling independence even more difficult. His Jeremiad about self-determination could have come from Willie Rennie.
We may have the facts, but the BBC and the colonial media have the loudhailer, and can pay well to those who would espouse their lies.
Thatcher illegally and secretly took the Oil revenues and built up London S/E. The Oil revenues were the equivalent of £20Billion a year. Thatcher still managed to have over 3Miliion unemployed and interest rates at 15%. Thatcher demutualised the Building Societies own by their members. Deregulated banking, and sold off utilities. Now owned by foreign State companies.
The Tories are now ruining the UK economy. Brexit. They haven’t a clue what to do next. Doctor’s strikes in England. The Tories illegally broke electoral rules in 29 seats.
Scotland has lost £Billions because of Westminster mismanagement of the economy, including the Oil sector. Osbourne was taxing the Oil sector at 60/80% when the price had called 75%. Losing £Billions in revenues.
Nicola has launched a campaign for the next Independence Referendum. Hold their feet to the fire.
the daily records website ” majority of scots reject sturgeons indy ref2 bid ” A poll by the times showing a majority of scots 50 % would reject a second independence vote aye well that would be a majority then eh ok the daily drip drip continues .
God help us we are being pursued by loonies and nut jobs on a daily basis now it can only get worse run for cover we are all doomed ,doomed i say .
A copy of this article into every post box in Scotland
What an utterly despondent read….
My unionist friends who keep screaming “we’d be bankrupt if we’d went independent” really need to do some reading.
Why oh why do we never hear the Scottish Government ever even commenting on things like this.Instead,we have to rely on websites like this one.It,s as if they,re always on the defensive like some obsolescent dinasaur,never pushing the positives for Scotland and letting countless opportunities pass them by.It,s pointless waiting to argue the case in debates when most people have already decided their intentions and the undecided don,t know whether the truth,s being told or not.Articles like this should be impressed on the public at every opportunity by every means available.Silence can be perceived as a sign of weakness.Please SNP start addressing the issues,whether good or bad,as they arise.I know the MSM can,t be relied on,but use all other means available.Push all your positives vigourously and force the unionist to defend.
Sterling work stu.
I believe that a referendum campaign should rely heavily on a withering critique of the UK’s economic incompetence. Boy do I have a lot of ammo.
Can this article be sent to proper journalists in other countries so it gets reported and questions start being asked by unbiased medias please?
This is far from spilled milk. This is the biggest example of just how indifferent the UK government has been, still is and will likely always be in terms of helping create a strong and equitable country. There are plenty of other instances of squandered money. The Marshall Aid after 1945, of which the UK got a lot more than Germany, but unlike Germany which invested it in productive assets, the UK largely pissed it away within a couple of years. The money from selling public houses or public companies? Gone.
Look at the UK balance of trade – link to economicshelp.org
It went negative in the 80’s. This shows the true position of the UK’s economy. Relentless economic decline along with relentless hot air – link to express.co.uk
The Brexit vote was in many ways surprising, but what is not surprising has been the utter incompetence of the UK government in the aftermath. They win and then – nothing.
As someone else said, it’s time to get the gloves off and take the blinkers off as well. Defending has not worked. With all three main UK parties in utter turmoil, Brexit and a massive list of examples of economic selfishness (for the rich) and austerity for everyone else, Scotland needs to leave the UK before it completely sinks into the hole that it has been digging for decades.
And as if all the economic shambles hasn’t been enough, the McCrone report shows (along with the Labour amendment to the 1979 Devolution referendum) the extent to which the UK main parties will go to blatantly lie to the people of Scotland.
It’s time to expose their self serving lies and incompetence to one and all. These two things lie at the heart of Scotland’s independence.
We’re never going to be able to prove that Scotland would make better decisions than the UK has done, so I think what we need to do is prove to people that we couldn’t possibly have made worse decisions. This is an excellent example.
People need to understand that being part of the UK has harmed Scotland. They need to see that the UK holds us back. They need to see that the UK is a basket case economy. We couldn’t fully push that the last time, because people would have said “if it’s such a basket case economy, why do you want to be in a currency union with it?” But it’s almost unthinkable that currency union will be pushed as the plan next time – in fact I suspect the SNP membership would go absolutely ape-shit if it was – so we won’t have to hold back.
Last time, independence was presented to people as a way to make things better. This time, they need to see it as the only way to stop things getting worse. The Tories and Labour are helping out massively in that regard.
As a young adult in the 1970s I remember the unionists telling us that Scotland couldn’t afford to be independent because the high price oil would harm our exports.
They also told us that the Scots were being greedy, because they wanted to keep all the oil for themselves.
MJack:
“England cant give Scotland money that it doesnt have, so its borrowed money!”
Guess what they used as Collateral?
Peace and Liquid Assets,(Ours!)
Terrific summation of red and blue tory socio-economics.
Did the tory rein work for you, where did Scots oil all go, can we make the most of what’s left, why is the tory BBC led UK media raging at Nicola Sturgeon for a quick fix now?
Remarkable levels of support for @theSNP after nearly a decade in government. Get involved. Join @theSNP. link to t.co
‘ But it’s a battle that simply must be won, and the starting point is to arm ourselves not with grievance and conspiracy but with the cold, hard facts.’
I believe this can only be achieved by the Scottish Govt aggressively exposing the truth as shown by this article.
The First Minister has to conduct a media offensive hammering home to the people of Scotland this outrageous theft from Scotland.
Calling out the lying thieving Westminster Govt is long overdue and is imperative to enlighten Scotland,though it will be seen almost as an act of war by the British Establishment and Scottish unionists alike.
Soft soap diplomacy is no longer an option.
This makes sense now. Several months ago I posted on the fact that every other country in the North Sea and there are several including Germany ,Holland and the Scandinavian countries,were posting oil revenues ranging from 10 to 20 billion. The UK was claiming around one tenth of that amount. It just did not seem sensible.
So the question is
a) Is the UK government doing this deliberately to scupper any cries for indy and accepting the loss or
b) Are these so called tax incentives somehow being Re routed into the Treasury in return for other perks ?
One thing is clear. They are stealing from the Scottish people, big time.
Yoons love to endow the First Minister with huge and amazing powers she doesn’t posess so that they can indulge in their favourite pastime of blaming her for stuff outwith her control in order to fool the bewildered ordinary voter so that the FM then has to spend her time defending ridiculous attacks instead of making her case
Then there’s the Ruth Davidson for a strong opposition party strategy which is clearly now based on Bigotry and Sectarianism with some of the usual lies about numbers and “Facts” thrown in, in order to prove she has gravitas to the Queens eleven supporters who don’t care a jot whether we would be better off or not “No Surrender or die” is the only language they will ever want to understand
Kezia Dugdale is unfortunately an idiot as is Willie Rennie but defenders of the faith they both are and when push comes to shove will man those barricades, both for the cause and for their jobs and careers
There are however many influential and retired Yoons who can now speak up on behalf of Independence because they’re not part of the cause anymore and their careers are over and I suspect we will see that happen
The Labour party in Scotland will split over this issue too, there are some who sit right behind and beside Ms Dugdale who will defy their party and come out in support because they do see it as the only way forward for their party in Scotland and that will probably spell the end for Kezia as a leader and politician
We can’t do it the same as the last time, we must find new ways of making the English parliament uncomfortable, and I mean English parliament because it in no way shape or form represents Wales Northern Ireland or Scotland in any meaningful way when you consider every single vote on any issue regarding our countries can and is outvoted by English politicians every single time
How can that, by any stretch of anybody’s imagination be democratically reasonable
We live in an English dictatorship that we never agreed to at any time ever yet they were allowed to create it for themselves by weight of numbers and deception
In any civilised society anywhere in the world what they get away with, under proper scrutiny would be deemed criminal
There is absolutely no difference between North Korea and Kim Jong Un to the United Kingdom regime the only thing missing are the armed forces on the streets and the UK pretence of being benign (extreme? think about it)
200 amendments to the Smith commission by Scottish MPs
adopted, NONE who voted against them? the whole of the English parliament
Scottish questions in the House of Commons spends more time selecting questions from English MPs complaining about Scottish affairs than actually selecting our own representatives
If certain Irish political parties can withdraw or refuse to take their seats and recognise the English parliament as a democratic institution maybe we should do the same in support and draw the worlds attention to that fact
See, I’ve got my dander up now
Good article and couldn’t agree more about Stockholm syndrome.
How to communicate this?
Most on here appreciate the reality of all this.
Things is it is largely history and most important bit is potential benefit for negotiating position for a share of UK debt. How sell that to the undecided?
I am also amazed at just how angry I can get over and over about the same fckn topic!
Going to the pub.
Indy 2, especially post-Brexit, should be all about the jaw-dropping socioeconomic incompetence of successive UK governments. Brexit, even if you support it, is a case study of lack of government planning and political mismanagement at all levels.
The main reason why Scotland voted No, we have 950,000 idiots who voted Labour and will keep on doing so until they die. These are hard-core buffoons and it doesn’t matter what you say or explain they just wont listen. When they said once in a generation referendum what they really meant is you will have to wait until they die!
Its sad but true, stupid is stupid and the msm have done a good job on the brain dead I cant see how you can get them to change. Its only when they are really hit financially that they see through the lies .
Great work Rev,aye and that is only the oil one of the many things that mysteriously makes us broke.
We should all just give up doing anything and spend our days farting about since we are so shit at everything and never make any money anyway lol
WOW Rev! Better out than in….Brilliant again!
All out of their own mouths too and graphs. Excellent post.
Have the rest of the day off.
You know Rev, I really needed this today.
I watched the FM’s broadcast. I did the survey, signed up to volunteer, passed it on. I was in a great mood.
Then I read the YouGov poll, particularly that part where (apparently) 13% of Yes voters are now unconvinced – coincidentally, just after GERS. I can’t tell you how I felt reading that: I was a popped balloon, thoroughly depressed and angry and frustrated at how people could believe this. After all the campaigning we’ve done, all the doors we’ve chapped, all the leaflets and research and money and effort and time and life we’ve poured into this campaign, only for some people to be going backwards.
Then I read this. It’s the best 1,000 or so words you’ve ever written. I don’t feel any happier, but I don’t feel quite as helpless either. There are more than a hundred of us alive. So we keep going.
We knew all this, but more significantly so do Glenn Campbell, Jackie Bird, Sally Magnusson, Sarah Smith, Hang on a Minute’ Brewer,the ‘Fucking Useless’ 40 Labour carpetbaggers whom we sent packing May 2015, their Lords Reid, McConnell, Darling, Foulkes, Baroness Goldie, Liddell, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, Ming Campbell, The O&S Liar, Mundell, Ruth Davidson, WATP Sectarian Two Jobs Professor Adam Tomkins, The Queen’s Eleven Murdo Fraser, Jackson Ruddy Carlaw, the entire newspaper industry up here in Scotland, yet they continue to lie, distort, and consign thousands of their fellow Scots citizens to premature deaths every year because of political decisions made by successive governments packed full of English MPs.
No more Mr Nice Guy.
No taking part in BBC debates, where Campbell shouts down an Independence panelist, and allows Dugdale Rennie and Davidson to spout their lies uninterrupted while the middle class well off plants in the audience clap and shout hurrah.
I would boycott all TV Brit stitch ups this time.
Remember the Gordon Brewer led farce of Rennie Murphy, Davidson, and Brewer himself ladling into Sturgeon?
WE should not tolerate this 3 against one nonsense this time.
Tell them to fuck off and SNP Bad among themselves.
We are still treated as a colony of England.
BBC News Where You Are had a Real Estate MOD advert last night, featuring the must buy Fort George.
They are selling off all our assets, and I for one, will no longer tolerate this Imperial theft.
I take it that the 400,000 English born living here are subsidy junkies too?
We take the fight to them this time. We call them liars when they lie, bullies when they threaten, and boycott any business that pulls the old ‘we’re leaving if you vote YES’ stunt again.
Scothold Syndrome!
Another sad aspect of this is when someone says “I read it and acceptd what I was told” and you counter with “These are the facts, those ones you read were lies” and their automatic defence mechanism is to say “Well, they ones of yours might be wrong too…its all the same rubbish!”
We have did well yet only climbed a hill so far. We still have a whole Mountain range to go through before we can have any confidence of a win.
PS.
Forgot to say.
Tremendous piece of analytical journalism Stuart.
One of your best and much appreciated.
I think we can safely say it’s hard hats on chaps ,time prepare to repel shit bombs from all sides attack the YES movement on an hourly basis and never allow any rebuttals or comment,facts dont be bloody silly just toss shit you know some will stick.
I think we can almost guarantee MI5 & MI6 will be supplying the Ammunition and personnel to cover every indy site so prepare for sites going down with the prefered method (DOS) denial of service attacks this time we might just win and they are shittin themselves , look how they are going after Corbyn we are in the same frame , a threat to the british establishment .
In any other country we would have had a revolution, not that I am advocating that, but I want justice. The above post is absolutely shocking, and shows what this so called Union is, a Bastardised Union only fit to rob Scotland of its natural rights.
Heard Nicola on the news calling for a new discussion, and some fool called Davidson having the bare faced cheek to say she talks for me? What an absolute arsehole that lassie is.
The problem with this is that most of us who frequent this and other forums already know the truth. What we have to do is put this in an easy-to-read, believable format that would convince those of little faith.
And I should have added that this will be no easy task.
Great article, Rev.
Scotland is being ripped off even more than we thought!
Everyone in Scotland has to hear and understand these facts. Then they can go away and consider whether they are Yes, or No.
We had 950,000 idiots voting Labour at the last election, you cannot get through to these idiots as they just wont listen.
I have explained all the negativity but the same response is but I’ve always voted Labour and I don’t like the SNP
When they meant once in a generation what they really meant was that once the have died off you might win. By that time the resources of Scotland will be a desert and the land stripped bare.
The stupid have to be removed from the electoral role by means of an IQ test and a minimum level to weed the stupid out. Either that when they have the vote put X-factor, cake off or show reruns of trooping the colour on.
Great article Stu, as ever.
I fear we’ll never convince those amongst us who do us down. I think I know where it’s heading to be honest. I well remember just before September 2014 how proud we were to boast that Scotland would be the first country to gain her independence from the UK without the spilling of blood.
We lost & now I think I know why.
950’000 misguided souls voting Labour
People actually ELECTING Ruthie and Wullie
This is practically Mission Impossible…but we know the good guys always win in the end of those movies!
Stuart what on earth would we do without you? Thanks SO very much for taking the time and effort to put this together.
If it was available to everyone in Scotland we’d be Independent in a heartbeat.
This is the type of flier that HAS to be pushed through EVERY letter box in Scotland.
If that was to happen, as a one off, I would suggest (hope you don’t mind me saying) that you contact Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp to see if there is anything else that could be added to your data such as further information that would highlight the current situation (more recent comments of Osborne and Cameron as an example).
Links too, to references such as on youtube McCrone Report and Stolen Seas (robbed us of 6000 sq mls of our seas and 7 oil wells).
***** C’mon Stuart let’s fundraise to get this out there. *****
…………………………………………….
(29/6/2016) Osborne and Cameron confirm Scotland better off outside the UK
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
(12/6/2016) David Cameron: Brexit is a risk we can avoid – BBC News (14 minutes in)
link to youtube.com
By the way Osborne and Cameron have got their figures wrong (once again) as the population of Norway is 5 million, practically identical to Scotland: Not 4 million.
link to worldpopulationreview.com
As good a read as the McCrone Report….
Thank you…
The good news is, The Graun says our indy crushing deficit is only £15 million! Woohoo. That’s probably what JK Rowling spends on her patio plants, sorry British patio plants.
Anyhoo, rancid’s CiFers are getting further right and Britnat thuggish the longer this farce union keeps its grip round our throats but still nice to see how just how very Tory England progressive liberals and democrats really are in the face of er, change:D
link to archive.is
Sturgeon bad, shock and
“Referring to last week’s government expenditure and revenue Scotland figures – which revealed a deficit of nearly £15m – as “not a verdict on independence but an indictment of generations of Westminster government”, she announced a new party growth commission, chaired by the former MSP Andrew Wilson. The commission will examine the prospects for Scotland’s finances as an independent country, and consider policies to both boost growth and reduce the deficit to a sustainable level.”
Ooops ‘flyer’ not ‘flier’!
Speaking of very Tory England progressive liberals and democrats that detest a Scotland actually not being run by England, my Slovene girlfriend’s also not impressed at all.
From BetterTogether Slovenia says NO more referendums for you vile seps
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins Sep 1
Debate seems to have started again on what the plural of referendum is. Is it referendums or referenda? The correct answer is –>
to
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 7h7 hours ago
So Nicola Sturgeon is finally going to listen? There’s really only one word she has to hear: we said No.
A Glesga yoonster uni prof that can count either, shock.
PS
Presidential candidate Donald Trump’s wife is also Slovenian and I can see why. They’re really good kissers, like what mine is.
Fantastic article. Many thanks. Any chance of a print version? We need to get this out.
Sheesh I wish we were as poor and as wee and as stupid as the Norwegians.
Superb article Rev. Have printed off a few copies to leave around my pub tonight.
O/T
Peep the Beeb Campaign
Label distributer numbers rising – slowly. Let’s get those laebls out on the streets folks. We’ll need around 250 distributors all over Scotland.
link to imgur.com
If you ant to get involved by distributing 1,000 labels in your area then send me your your contact details. You will find the email address to send those on the bottom of the page (link above). Also let me know which label you would liek to use for the campaign (your top TWO).
Together we can bring the BBC’s anti-Scottish propaganda down to a peep.
@Brian Weir 1.52pm
Why don’t YOU just send this article to your “voting no”friends. The Rev has done a superb job. It’s up to us to make sure it gets out there by any means possible.
I have.
Excellent Rev, as others have said we all know this, but I don’t know how many times speaking with the indifferent to the decidedly No’s I’ve been met by the brick wall of ‘not interested’, ears closed mind’s shut response. The thing about Stockholm syndrome is that the captive don’t know they are captive. The most telling sign of this is ‘defensiveness’.
They are there own worst enemy. Unfortunately for us ‘they’ include the entire msm in Scotland and all unionist politicos. It is they who are ‘controlling’ the narrative and so we can’t get this out there into the heart of our communities.
Crush a people and keep telling them it’s they themselves who are at fault, tell them Scotland’s shite and create a narrative of the ‘brightest’ leave thereby implying those that ‘stay’ are not the ‘brightest’, maintain all of this with ‘the news where you are’ and eventually we are were we are.
How do we get people out of this vicious cycle?
We only need another 10% or so, I take heart that we have come this far in a relatively short period of time, on the back of decades of struggling to get to this point. Surely, ah think to myself, surely we are nearer than we have ever been and because of this that is what keeps that flame alive inside, the feeling that we are tantalisingly close to achieving something extraordinary by peaceful means.
So don’t give up…don’t stop talking to people, even those wi deaf ears, act as if we are already independent, marginalise their narrative as if it’s ‘old hat’ and walk tall. Those that stayed and those that have come and stayed are the guardian’s of Scotland’s future…I hate to sound trite but…we shall overcome.
Unfortunately, democratic elections are never won on the facts. People are persuaded by their emotions that are easily manipulated despite the facts (see Brexit in England). Scotland’s independence depends on having a plan of persuasion that is based on the facts, but show how those facts should cause disgust and fear in the present, exploitative constitutional arrangement and how that exploitation and fear can be ameliorated and or eliminated by independence.
I think we can almost guarantee MI5 & MI6 will be supplying the Ammunition and personnel to cover every indy site
Dr NO! says they’re also working to get JC, or its a SLab in joke. Its not a good day for SLab though. Polls show no Westminster SLab MP’s at all is on the way, with barely a couple of tory twits like Fluffie. Its mad enough SLab wise right now, with their last Westminster SLab dude knifing what looks like their next leader.
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 7h7 hours ago
Scott Arthur Retweeted Jeremy Corbyn for PM
Is MI5 rigging the Labour Leadership election in favour of Owen Smith?
What tory money buys you. Bet he’s kicking himself he didn’t ask for £50k, as JK Rowling is a very charitable, generous and giving billionaire, she keeps saying over and over. Its why the poor wee soul dropped of the Forbes top 10 World billionaire list. Awe
Loki ?@lokiscottishrap 4h4 hours ago
I get that Indy is seen as best way to address the fundamental problems. But SNP also use that as political cover for inaction. Come on.
I have found that if I say to people “Scotland subsidises the UK” they look incredulous and might ask me if I got that the wrong way round. It is a testament to the effectiveness of our opponents’ propaganda skills that they have succeeded in getting Scottish people to believe the total opposite of the truth, despite the facts being freely available.
So what do we do? Say it loud and often – “The UK depends on Scottish subsidy to survive. The UK has stolen from Scotland for many decades, perhaps centuries. We in Scotland cannot afford to do this anymore. We take the strongest exception to our money being used to pay for tax cuts for the rich and for wars and weapons that are not only morally wrong, but unaffordable. When we achieve independence, the debt will be yours not ours and you will still owe us for plundering our resources. We are ashamed that we let you away with it for so long, but it stops now.”
We can all make our own versions of this, but the important point is to get the idea that Scotland subsidises rUK out there as part of mainstream dialogue. At the moment, with the exception of this site, it is rare to hear anyone making this powerful argument. It might take a while, but all we need is for soft “No”s to start looking at the facts so that they challenge the unionist propaganda.
K1 says 2:30pm”I hate to sound trite but…we shall overcome.”
I love to sound truthful but..We Shall Overcome.
Fixed that for you my friend.
Peace,Love and Overcoming:-)
Long time Lurker (pre Indy Ref 1).
First time poster.
As the grandson of a Free Polish Army soldier who settled in Scotland following WWII, and as a Scot and holder of a Passport that states I am an EU Citizen I’ve finally decided it’s time to comment on Wings.
This has been a long time coming but crystallised as a result of the recent Tory Spokeswoman’s comment “Some people may find it bizarre that an EU citizen has an interest…” regarding Alexander (James Amherst) Burnett (of Leys) MSP being referred to the Public Standards Commissioner for typical Tory Boy pocket lining abuse of public office.
I wonder if said Spokeswoman is also an EU Citizen but no doubt feels UKOK trumps her EU Citizenship.
So trying the ‘Blood and Soil’ (it’s only the opinion of a foreigner, ergo it doesn’t count) regardless of the fact it is right, move along nothing to see here).
I fear it won’t be long until they replace EU with Scottish in their official statements (they appear to be doing so with alarming regularity in their unofficial press releases MSM/BUM).
I agree with Doug Daniel @ 12:58hrs.
“We’re never going to be able to prove that Scotland would make better decisions than the UK has done, so I think what we need to do is prove to people that we couldn’t possibly have made worse decisions”
So I see a potential to augment ? Proud Cybernats “Peep the Beeb” sticker campaign.
Do you think A5 sized full colour stickers in the “Are You Yes Yet” style with the usual catchy pictures and comment with a QR Code in the corner linking to articles such as this?
I think it could help to get this and the other messages that we a neither Too Wee nor Too Poor out there.
Accurate,truthful,joined up thinking,a potted history of North Sea Oil…a journalistic masterclass….bravo sir bravo.
#IfIOnlyKnew
For goodness sake do the hippy etc. Are we really going to lose our country to clowns.
David Torrance ?@davidtorrance Aug 2
So farewell then, twitter, it’s no longer fun & the constant ad hominem attacks have begun to penetrate even my relatively thick skin. Adios
David Torrance ?@davidtorrance 5h5 hours ago
Interesting @NicolaSturgeon is stressing “democratic deficit” argument for Indy (“who decides?”), which is more existential than utilitarian
Exactly one month of endless BBC Scotland led SNP gags journo fury too.
@heedtracker
was looking on internet about Norway`s oil industry,
major player in Norway`s oil business is Statoil which is not nationalised but is majority owned by Norway Gov,
Statoil employ ex boss of MI6 Sir John Scarlett,
Scarlett worked with Alastair Campbell on the `sexed` up `September Dossier` which led to the 2003 invasion of Iraq,
which lead to various Big Oil companies making billions from Iraq`s oil,
Scarlett also on the board of News International,
also ties with PwC,
no real point just looking at the connections between Big Oil,State Intelligence,Media and Big Accounting,
oil is a dirty business.
Internal control over a nations’ natural resources is a per-requisite of the human right to development. States are obliged to do all in their power to ensure the right to development is realised.
link to un.org
Scots are being robbed blind by the British State and denied their inalienable human rights in the process. We can either wait for the gap to be closed between the spirit of international law on development and it’s enforcement, or we can re-imagine a sovereign Scots nation. A nation capable of advancing the interests of the Scottish people and their liberated potential.
Re. waiting for due process of the law, I contacted The Scottish Human Rights Commission at the beginning of the week, re. this subject, and have not yet received confirmation they have received my e-mail. A very disappointing state of affairs.
Implementing the Right to Development
The Role of International Law
link to fes-globalization.org
I still think Danny DeVito makes a far better penguin.
Around 60 years ago Scotland was producing almost half the worlds shipping with all the related infrastructure. manufacturing included cars trucks bridges and all manner of engineering
For 30 of these 60 years Scotland was the 13th largest oil producer in the world.
Here we are now declining oil, little or no manufacturing and food banks all around and you can’t drive 100 yards without hitting a pot hole
What planet do unionists live on if they think Westminster has worked for us.
The only risk from Indyref 2 is if we lose Scotland will be written out of history and laid waste.
I thought this was a joke when I first saw it – THE GREAT BRITISH HAGGIS
link to thehaggis.com
no real point just looking at the connections between Big Oil,State Intelligence,Media and Big Accounting,
oil is a dirty business.
Most UK business is dirty. Ex BP slogger here. That pack of fabulously paid toryboy’s decided that the Green movement was something big oil could use, so they changed the BP shield logo into a pretty flower and painted it green, they painted everything BP green. Cynical arseholes or just tory genius to defraud suckas? Then they filled the Gulf of Mexico with crude oil and more or less destroyed their brand.
That was just one of BP’s many environmental horrors but above all else, BP became one the world’s biggest businesses off the back of Thatcherite North sea oil and gas expro de-nationalisation and de- regulation. If you’re wondering where a UK, let alone a Scottish oil fund like Norway’s has gone, look no further than BP.
And its all sold as great British tory stuff, by Murdoch goons like
SNP is the listening party? Away you go
Nicola Sturgeon’s attempt to persuade her swaggering, supercilious party to be humble requires a huge shift in mindset
Kenny Farquharson
September 2 2016, 12:01am,
The Times
Our task is to show unionists Labour and Tory that they have been betrayed
Their eyes need to be opened to the betrayal by Westminster
Spoke to a No voter the other day. By no means stupid. Very knowledgeable about all sorts (about gilts and federal reserves for instance) but claims to not follow politics. Which may explain it. Voted Remain. Fully aware of the incoherence of the UK government’s position and the lies that were told. This person equates independence with the SNP. A vote for indy was a vote for the SNP, not a vote for Scotland. Period. Voted No because didn’t want to be ‘separated’. If we became independent we would have a huge problem with the Highlands because they are a different culture. Then recollected suddenly that they all vote SNP up there… paused briefly for thought… quickly changed subject. Didn’t get very far with this discussion because this person talks ten to the dozen and constantly goes off at tangents. Main impression: very old fashioned and set in her ways. Clock stuck firmly in 1975. Tribal affiliation with Labour as part of the DNA they were born with.
Main conclusion: I think by making such folk aware that indy supporters are normal decent human beings and not the demons of the press the narrative might be gradually dispelled. Not so much by argument but by natural empathy.
Noted that the public narrative was changing. The mould cast by the media is being smashed or eroded. This person began by talking about ‘separation’ then switched to using the word ‘independence’.
Then began speaking of ‘when independence comes’ as if unconsciously acknowledging it was inevitable. But will never on any account vote Yes.
David Torrance, just another lying Yoon, it’s what the Yoons are best at.
The time we start believing their polls and lies, is the time we are in real trouble.
Chitterinlicht says:
2 September, 2016 at 1:17 pm
Good article and couldn’t agree more about Stockholm syndrome.
desimond says:
2 September, 2016 at 1:37 pm
Scothold Syndrome!
Smallaxe says:Jockhome syndrome:Peace
… and remember folks, of what Westminster will do to keep Scotland in the union post Brexit.
Junkies, tramps and thieves, yes, and their friends the sociopaths and psychopaths.
Dark times are just beginning.
Interesting YouGov poll results
SNP 50%, Conservatives 21%, Labour 15.5%, Green 6%, Lib Dem 5.5%, UKIP 2%. Holyrood prediction: SNP 71(+8), LAB 18(-6), LIB 4(-1), CON 26(-5), UKIP 0(=), GREEN 10(+4) Well done Kezia.
Based on this the SNP and Greens just need to persuade all their supporters to vote YES in indyref2.
However less encouraging is latest YES / NO states
Yes 52% No 48% (under 65s) Yes 25% No 75% (over 65s)
Perhaps time for the Scottish NHS to re-evalute its priorities? (LoL)
I’m sorry but every time I see that Lord Monckton I can’t get this guy out of my head.
link to youtube.com
Well off topic here and apologies if it has already been posted but here is our favourite Daily Express getting rather upset about Nicola having a mix of German and Scottish flags present when she met Angela Merkel. Apparently she only had Saltires present when the greed driven P.M. of this broken union paid her a visit after winning her non election election.
link to archive.is
Regardless of the polls,we can at least assume this time we are starting with a base line support of 46%. That is a big improvement on last time.
If Scotland wants to pursue economic growth through planning and income policies to achieve full employment,enhance equality and social justice through robust welfare provision,health ,housing and other public policies then it must follow an alternative economic model that has delivered boom and bust economics over decades of either Labour or Conservative rule.
That can only be achieved with Scotland becoming independent.Otherwise it remains a voting inconvenience to the toxic brand of UKOK and Scotland’s aspirations are forever irrelevant.
SG listening to the electorate,engaged in a national conversation- good! Citizens becoming competent in their political judgments and having constructive contributions to the complexity of decision making has a positive history in several countries – it should be welcomed by anyone who supports deliberative democracy.
Whilst persuading UKOK to foster the symptoms of Lima Syndrome…
Oh my God, today’s been a good day. Laugh? I could have cried tears of laughter into my socks with my heid between my knees.
Anyone check out Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Conservatives today?
You can check it out here, and I give the direct link in credit to STV for running the story:
link to stv.tv
Sweatie-sock Syndrome.
Okay – got me coat.
Rancid The Graun’s doing another ref thing. That’s 3 Scotland, or rather 3 anti Scottish democracy things in one day! Shurely shome etc…
“How do Scots feel about having another independence referendum, post-Brexit?”
is as far as I got as its just going to be, we “all” feel terrible about it, sick of it, and we wish Sturgeon could just shut her big fat SNP gob who no one likes anyway, be British, go away and sort out Scotland’s massive problemos, but i could be wrong.
Oh and Vote Tory Scotland, any colour:D
What do you folks think about the Greens maybe voting with the Unionists against a second Independence Referendum? Is it too soon for a second vote, or can it not come quick enough for some folk? (myself included). Should we hold back or strike while the iron appears hot?
Great article. Maybe the best to convert no voters. Although you can hear the echo, “propaganda propaganda”
Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley – as at the very top, makes for an interesting search. Coming up with that simple, snide, quotable remark (subsidy junkies) would seem to fit his kookie demeanour. Fits with UKIP seamlessly.
The rest of this post weakens one at the knees with the litany of just what a rogue, underhand government the UK has enjoyed for decades – possibly for centuries.
One thing should be certain. iScotland should accept NONE of the debt run up by London. It simply isn’t our debt. If anything rUK should be giving a big fat cheque as we depart in leu of assets we paid for but they will keep.
Also, could iScotland reverse all WM’s mismanagement and start to take tax at Norwegian levels? Or has it all been given away?
And another thing. Exactly how did this shit show come about where Norway manages its oil sensibly, and UKOK seems to have made such a complete and utter mess of it?
And finally! What about other oil rich nations? How many are like Norway? And how many like the UKOK clowns?
@yesindyref2
Aye shortbread saying that the ‘survey’ is being questioned by other parties as being illegal.
Help yourself I filled it in earlier.
link to archive.is
Soundbite #3,357:
“If we become independent we’ll be broke.”
“If we stay in the UK we’ll be worse.”
Joemcg says:
Great article. Maybe the best to convert no voters. Although you can hear the echo, “propaganda propaganda
—
I know, but the facts are there. Anyone who says it is just Nat propaganda are “too stupid”.
Wrong link:
Survey here….
link to survey2016.scot
David Torrance: The SNP’s announcement was an exercise in buying time
Torrance not that keen then on ref 2. Why not though, if their farce of a toryboy union is so solid and everything, why don’t they rage away tory BBC style for ref2? They’d clearly and easily crush that one too, and that really would be their yew kay saved for ever and ever, an historic British triumph of teamGBness. 300 hundred more years, let alone once in a generation, SNP would probably hang on for a bit longer but Dugdale and her merry band of BBC red tory yoons would surely take back what’s so rightfully theirs for ever and ever. Or Ruth might scrape it.
EC already responded negatively apparently to Lamont’s lament, that was fast:
link to pbs.twimg.com
@call me dave
I went to do an archive after I posted the STV link, and it had been archived 6 mins ago.
Sorry to steal your thunder!
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We are very lucky to have you on our side,I’d hate to have you
as an enemy.Thank You Sir.
Peace and Love to you and yours.
Bryan Weir says:
The problem with this is that most of us who frequent this and other forums already know the truth. What we have to do is put this in an easy-to-read, believable format that would convince those of little faith.
—
What about a “Best of Wings” book, like the two WBBs? The great thing about the article above is the number of screenshots that back it up, not just blue text links that most folk don’t click. And that was the great thing about the Wee Black Book too. Perhaps Stu might think about this, with a view to another crowdfunder and a release sometime next year.
YouGov poll. Exluding DKs: Independence 46% Yes, 52% No. Same as YouGov poll in May. This after all the GERS shite dumped upon us. Again no 16 & 17 year olds involved in poll.
Euan12.16agree, any other people in the world would have gotten up off their knees by now.in rage against all the vile insults hurled at them. But oh no, not the “proud f****ng scot buts.
I thought that was one of your best ever Rev, and a great companion piece to your Gers analysis. If only it could be aired on MSM. Great canvassing material.
When the time comes, I hope you can produce similar on the currency issue.
I’m afraid Jockholm Syndrome is a long-standing condition which can be difficult to treat and needs subtle, non-confrontational treatment. Gentle questioning and feeding of key facts at the right time can be effective, as well as persistent displays of pitying disbelief at mention of BBC. This can eventually result in Giant Penny dropping.
And once that happens, there’s no going back and the patient finally awakes from the 300-year sleep.
“If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically and so on, I would still be against breaking away from the Union.”
Fantastic piece, we’ve been piecing this together on social media but this is the whole blooming jigsaw put together for all to see, stunning piece of work – well done
Sorry, that went off before I could mention my ex-MP’s famous quotation: “If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically and so on, I would still be against breaking away from the Union.”
Jimmy Hood unfortunately expresses the irrational Britnat attitude which can be almost impossible to treat in extreme cases.
This is an excellent piece of detailed analysis.
What is really shocking is the cynical deceptive way, in which Both Tory AND LABOUR Governments went out of their way to lie to Scotland regarding the oil wealth. Thatcher was no economic wizard, it just so happened she came to power as the oil revenue really started to flow from Scotland. That is what paid for her tax cuts, that is what paid for the M25, that is what paid for the channel tunnel. It was no economic miracle.
All the while, Scots were repeatedly told by Westminster (red and blue tory) that our oil was worthless, and would run out any day. Liars.
It is clear, Scotland was robbed of its natural riches, just like every other colony of Westminster. Upon independence, we should take NO UK debt, just like Ireland. Not one penny, for we owe not one penny.
Thieving Westminster. Stole the wealth AND FOOD of India, then told the people they ‘needed’ Westminster ‘support’. It is colonial template stuff.
I make 2 points,
1. The colonial propagandist broadcaster, the BBC, should be run out of Scotland. They are an obscenity.
2. It is imperative when we become independent, we take Not one penny of UK debt with us.
Thieving lying Westminster, cheated Scots of their oil wealth then calls us beggars. Utter filthy lying scum. Hell mend them.
The lies are not working with the “plebs” any more.
But there is an inbuilt selfish British Nationalist and Imperialist majority which is increasing and will make it impossible for Scotland to become independent any time soon.
English settlers, the middle classes and the elderly.
How many people, families and communities have been blighted by poverty due to the deliberate asset stripping of Scotland?
How many lives have been shortened? How many opportunities lost?
The story of Scotland’s economy is a travesty and an utter tragedy.
Small axe
Let’s get this survey, the biggest the SNP has organised…out to as many people as possible, take your tablet or comp tae people that dinnae hae one and help them to do this!
link to survey2016.scot
People chuckle about jockholme syndrome, but sometimes I wonder whether it is too close to the bone to laugh about. For example, ask yourself an awkward question. Say you support Celtic, what would it take to make you support Rangers? Or just say you hate football, what would it take to turn you into a travelling away fan? What does it take to transform a unionist into an Indy supporter? When you think like that, the penny drops that this is so much more than a rational objective argument between the merits of Independence versus the merits of the Union. If the argument was rational, then we’d win that hands down.
Be warned, I don’t have the answer, nor indeed do I have the full picture, but right now I feel like a TV cop who knows whodunnit, but just lacks the vital last piece in the puzzle so everything falls into place and he’s ready to slap on the handcuffs. I KNOW the Britnat media is doing this to us, keeping our national aspirations in check, and stifling all our efforts at Nation building. But knowing it, and stopping it are completely different issues.
I actually think what is going on goes beyond propaganda. It’s like watching some cheesey black and white war film about the clever plucky Brits winning through against all odds to defeat these nasty, stupid brainwashed Krauts. You know it’s propaganda, you know it’s fantasy, but you watch it regardless because it is engineered to make you feel better about yourselves. It still has that effect despite the war being 60 years ago and Germany is now very much our ally. See what I’m getting at? The theme or subject of the propaganda is not that important, it is just the carrier which smuggles the mind altering “device” past our defences and embeds it in our sub conscience.
There is something going on here which is more sophisticated than that which we can all recognise and dismiss as banal unionist propaganda.
Another parallel might be to think of this propaganda as a “stress”. Stresses can add up very quickly, but dissipate at a much slower rate. People make the mistake to believe that taking a day off from a stressful job is all that’s needed to cope with the stress, but in truth, the stresses need much more time to dissipate, the residual stress level is still high, and it only requires minimal topping up of new stress to reach the same saturation point. Stress heats up very quickly, but cools at a snails pace.
I see parallels in propaganda. There is so much of it, it is never ending, and the background levels are so high that even the brief moments of respite which escape the media’s control are too fleeting and short in duration to have much impact on the residual levels of indoctrination by propaganda.
To defeat the mechanism, we need to understand the mechanism, and I’m sorry to say I just don’t think we are there yet. For one thing, if you put 10 YES supporters in a room, there’d be lots of smiles and Bon ami, but there would also be 10 different versions of what Independence for Scotland actually meant. We need much more cohesion.
But do not despair. It isn’t all defeatist talk, because once the dam has been breached, the sheer weight of water will do the rest.
I don’t think this is the time to be patient, but it is the time when we need to be clever.
IMHO, the Scots disposition to bend the knee (a psychophysical response to programmed dependency) has been constructed through the disruption and dispossession of a Scots national identity and culture.
link to naho.ca
Donald Duck has just signed tank petition will it be in the count I wonder.
Rock says:
2 September, 2016 at 5:11 pm
The lies are not working with the “plebs” any more.
Indeed. But the trick is in persuading YES inclined people to get off their arses and vote. We made some headway in 2014, but we still lagged considerably behind the strong NO voter groups in this department.
But there is an inbuilt selfish British Nationalist and Imperialist majority which is increasing and will make it impossible for Scotland to become independent any time soon..
Selfish? Perhaps. Scared? Definitely.
However, I can assure you, there is no British Nationalist or Imperialist majority in Scotland. You are way off the mark on that one.
English settlers, the middle classes and the elderly.
They all have a right to be “Scottish”, and they don’t all vote NO. If we can persuade a few more of these groups, and a lot more of our home-grown scots, believe me, we are home and dry. This is doable, but it won’t happen overnight. Lots of hard work ahead.
Think about it this way: 10 years ago, 45% YES would have been considered impossible. Nothing is impossible.
I know we joke about buying the Scotsman but a paper print one off in big print of WBB headlines and précis might be worth an option. A gentler approach is definitely needed for older folk who are swithering.
I printed off the Black Book for my elderly mother and initially she was overwhelmed after a few pages and did not want to read any further. I think the level of betrayal was too much for her so I didn’t press the point. I did leave it with her though and I know she has continued to read it.
We have spoken about the 1970s and how let down people felt then. For her, that was the main driver of voting No, not to get her hopes up which for me was heartbreaking.
Yoons speaking for others while refusing to engage is quite funny though. Presumably Ruth Davidson believes all those self selecting petition sites and MSM website polls where you can vote multiple times would be a more accurate way of gauging the level of support for Indy?
Maybe she remembers how the polls right up to the last minute said Remain was going to win.
The truth has always been out there.
Type ‘Thatcher + oil’ into google and see the MSM articles which come up on the issue after her death.
And before that
eg From 2009
link to archive.is
But maybe we could start all over again!
link to archive.is
Breeks, great post
It feels to me like it’s social engineering by means of NLP techniques, delivered via the BBC, to subdue and control the population.
It’s not just Scotland that’s been subdued and controlled – the population across the UK is much more subdued than it used to be.
It’s far too subtle to be called propaganda, instead it’s a mix of Great British marketing and psychological techniques that create a feeling of community and pride around the Great British icons, in particular the NHS and the BBC, alongside a fear of change by the othering of poverty and lack. The 2012 Olympics opening ceremony was it in a nutshell.
It’s not a coincidence that the social media generation are those least likely to be afflicted with unionism.
Empowerment is surely the tonic to what’s been going on, and the survey seems like a good starting point.
@ Breeks
Strees. Indeed. It must be really bad right now. I mean, think about it – all those weeks, months, nae YEARS, pumping out their insidious anti-Scottish broadcats and STILL 50%+ of Scotland are telling them to go and take a flying f@#k to themselves.
Don’t think I could cope with that level of failure. Must be really stressful these days to work in the BBC’s black arts dept.
I, like the vast majority of us, just keep laughing at them and their silly propaganda nonsense. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey.
Oh – and not forgetting Peep the Beeb
Sign-up folks. Link here:
link to imgur.com
Distributor numbers are slowly rising. Thanks to everyone who has signed up so far.
It would appear that the Metropolitan Broadcast and Print Media have performed a universal volte face and have changed sides in the Junior Doctors v Tories dispute.
Who says that WM doesn’t apply pressure on the media.
Ah the power of propaganda.
It’s funny how we are constantly told that not all the 52% who voted OUT in 2016 are bigots racists. Most of them are actually nice people, according to our politicians and MSM.
And yet, the entire 45% who voted YES in 2014 are either poor deluded fools and cult followers, or they are vile racists and seperatists.
It’s a funny yoon world.
P.S. Also, British nationalism has been sold as the natural order for at least a century. The ‘middle-class’ seek normality and tend to consume ideology unquestioningly.
K1:
Done five so far, I will get my wife to put it out to her
Facebook friends when she comes in (lady who lunches).
Peace and Love.
Luigi,
“If we can persuade a few more of these groups, and a lot more of our home-grown scots, believe me, we are home and dry.”
If after Brexit, Tory rule and austerity, we still don’t have a Yes majority, we are as far from “home and dry” as ever.
Most of the ones that can be persuaded have been persuaded and we are still short.
The vast majority of English settlers, the middle classes and the elderly will never be persuaded. Ironically, the former two classes are actually increasing thanks to excellent governance by the SNP.
A radical solution is required: give the next independence vote only to those who had at least one grandparent born in Scotland. Exclude the vote from the likes of JK Rowling.
I am not surprised at the Times poll results. We are never going to get independence if things carry on the way they are . Fact.
I`ll say it again . If people truly want independence they are going to have to show it by getting out there in their tens of thousands demanding the Truth be reported by the MSM and generating as much publicity both at home and abroad. We must advertise our rallies with more vigour and encourage everyone we can to attend.
I for one am getting seriously pissed off with Westminster,MSM and business lying, intimidating and controlling my country.
Rev, could you give us your view as to why Scottish politicians in general and the SNP rarely push inconvenient facts such as detailed in this article?
I know the SNP are trying to appeal to a broad swathe of the population including middle of the road/undecided individuals but surely that does not mean they have to be complicit in the perpetuation of false beliefs.
Is it the case that they also believe such falsehoods even though they desire an independent Scotland, or is there some darker reasons ‘forcing’ them to keep quiet?
I’d prefer the former type of explanation but wouldn’t be too surprised at the latter (shades of conspiracy theories here, no doubt) given the historical record of Governments who have stirred up too much trouble for the Davos establishment and their ilk. My local MP, for example, once stated that when it comes to seeking change in Westminster she and her colleagues had to be careful as there were some really nasty people about. This hardly reassured me since the topic under discussion was the means of deselecting MPs who no longer had the support of their constituents. If facing opposition on such a topic was likely to generate a fearful response, I wonder what kind of response (beyond Project Fear Mark II) would focus on the Scottish Government and individual MSPs if there was an all out assault on the credibility of the Unionist Establishment and their (mis)management of the UK/Scottish economies over the past few decades.
The “waste of times” have condemned Nicola’s stand on Ind2 a waste of time. How ironic.
Superb piece of research – thank you. Brilliantly put together. These are the kind of facts wanted and needed by my local branch as ammunition for when we start chapping on doors once again. Much of this data can be distilled into simple A5 leaflets which can be read and digested in minutes.
Luigi,
“However, I can assure you, there is no British Nationalist or Imperialist majority in Scotland. You are way off the mark on that one.”
The English settlers, the middle classes and the elderly not to forget the English with second homes who had been given the vote who secured the No vote in 2014 represent the British Nationalist and Imperialist majority in Scotland.
If the Tories, Labour, Lib Dems and UKIP, all representing the British Nationalist and Imperialist majority, merged into a single party, they would probably win the Scottish parliament and Westminster elections.
Most Greens are British Nationalists and Imperialists as well.
Bob Mack says:
2 September, 2016 at 1:09 pm
200 amendments to the Smith commission by Scottish MPs
adopted, NONE who voted against them? the whole of the English parliament
They never even listened. They all trouped in for the vote though. They do this every time.
This is getting so ridiculous now. I know it’s not the right way, but I feel like UDI is getting closer by the day. What will they do? What can they do?
I have had fun today. Friday is my funday well this one is. Archived in case of any strange changes.
link to archive.is
Note, I’m not saying any export duty is paid on whisky, it’s probably zero, just that it exists as far as the HMRC are concerned, and therefore is not “…the non-existent export duty”.
Yeah, great article, all in the one place too.
That guy Monckton looks like some kind of deviant.
I bet his dry cleaners are kept busy.
I hear protein based stains are most persistant.
Sunniva: “Spoke to a No voter the other day.”
Most interesting post I’ve read for days – fascinating insight into the mind of someone who cannot perceive independence is intimately bound up with civil rights.
I wonder if a well organised, literate and witty campaign of easy-to-digest civil rights garnered under self-determination will educate and aid understanding?
As things stand, I’d offer an easy guess No’s believe they enjoy all the rights an individual needs under Westminster rule to lead a safe and reasonably happy life.
They do not know what it is they’re missing.
The second issue is clarify what aims are worth pursuing for a ‘better society’. Let’s spell them out.
Fucking hell Stu, just, well I don’t know.
The stuff about the oil revenues being pissed up a wall in London I knew but I had NO IDEA that the UK managed to negotiate itself such a rotten deal from its assets.
The lies are one thing (*of course* the UK would try to get Scotland to believe it was shit, it is in the UKs best interests, no hard feelings there) but the financial incompetence is a whole new thing. The UK can’t even screw us over properly.
This is stunningly damning stuff.
Could a precise of this go on billboards ?
Oops – precis ( or summary )
Rock,
Plenty of ‘English Settlers’ voted YES in 2014. Your suggestion that a large group of long-term residents, many of them SNP members, should be denied a vote in a second referendum is as divisive as it is stupid.
We would be far better occupied talking to the mass of Scots-born cringers who are unable to believe we could run our own country.
So this is the face of a lord.
Monkfish looks like Fagan.( I think even a horny deep sea trawler-man would say no to this breed of monkfish)
Thanks yet again Stu for real honest, intellectual information.
Wings Over Scotland ( the source that every other information site can only dream of becoming).
Indy Ref 2 Woosaa.
Can this latest opinion poll be trusted?
We had a march in Glasgow last month and by coincidence a poll (commissioned by an ultra unionist “news”paper) was released which showed a drop in support for independence. Then, the Scottish Government announces a new drive for independence starting today and by an amazing coincidence we have an opinion poll (commissioned by another ultra unionist “news”paper) out today showing a drop in support for independence. It’s quite remarkable really how these things work out!
This is the opinion poll used as a political weapon – a kind of anti-independence propoganda missile used to demoralize indy supporters and convince them that their cause is a hopeless one. How many people see all of the collated data before these polls are published? How difficult would it be for a couple of senior unionist pollsters, well versed in the black art of pollitical polling, to massage a set of figures to give a desired result? Could one not simply poll a larger sample than required then reduce the numbers to the required level by removing those who gave the “wrong” answer? It’s a fair bet that the polls are carried out by unionists. Why then, given all the skulduggery exposed in this article, do we assume that everything will be done honestly? Do a majority of people really think we are subsidized by England? Are you sure? Is support for independence at 46%? Really?
Can we have a poll commissioned by a nationalist paper/website done by a nationalist polling organisation please? Given the track record of unionists in the honesty stakes I think that’s a reasonable request.
Many of you think I’m a conspiracy theory nutter, right? I refer you to the story of Scotland’s North Sea Oil detailed in the article above.
What about this for a suggestion? Firstly, i have no idea about costs involved etc but this is one of the many ideas i’ve had birling around my cranial space recently so here goes!
The Rev recently published our monthly unique reader figures, i can’t remember the exact figure but it wasn’t a kick-up-the-erchie away from 300K.
Now, if we could manage to get just 200k of those readers to donate just £5 we would raise £1million for the kitty.
We then identify 5 of the most important categories, ie: Defence, The Economy (inc Oil) and so on and so forth and we create a series of wee books for distribution.
For example, something along the lines of:
Wings Over Scotland Part one DEFENCE
It would clearly state on the inside cover that the book is the first in a series of 5 etc etc – to keep people hooked in anticipation and looking to complete their sets. We’d be the talk of the steamie.
The books would be written in such a way that they can not become out of date, just focusing on facts, evidence and how Scotland has been getting ripped off and conned for centuries etc.
I’m stating a series of 5 and that works out at a commitment cost of £200,000 to each book to cover all the costs of producing each one. All that, of course, could be up for alteration if general opinion thought more categories were necessary.
Once each book has been produced we all commit to purchasing as much, or as little, of the books we individually need for distribution.
It would take a gargantuan effort on everyone’s part, especially the Rev and any little helpers he pulls in but it would make a serious contribution to the fight for independence, give all of us something positive to focus on AND gets the facts into circulation among many other benefits.
The key to this working, as ever, is selling the idea to the Rev then every last one of us getting behind him and the idea.
Articles such as the one at the top of this thread have far too much information to be put on a single leaflet. The only 2 ways possible to get all the facts into circulation is via books or getting folk to this site but not everyone has access to the internet, either due to circumstances or by choice but most people can read.
Well, that’s the general gist of that idea. What say you folk?
Cal: “Can this latest opinion poll be trusted?”
No.
The British establishment will always reduce evidence of support, and inflate the benefits of Westminster rule. Always. Right up and to the last moment.
They will be failing in their duty if they didn’t lie as a matter of control.
Breeks, if you thought I was joking about Jockholm Syndrome, I wasn’t.
Trying to convert these people means the rosette has to come off and “soft skills” have to be employed. You have to gently subvert the sources of misinformation which sustain No Voters’ “wrong end of the telescope” way of looking at things. Both MSM and the BBC need to be gently mocked, and facts about oil, pensions, currency, human rights, etc. need to be slipped into these conversations.
This doesn’t have the big bang of official canvassing but I often feel canvassing itself rarely changes minds while making us feel we are doing something useful.
Can I attempt a CameronB Brodie-style phrase?
We need to subvert the Paradigms of Control in our social interface situations.
I feel better now.
The signs of unionist panic are everywhere. The polls continue to run in our direction despite the lies,. In the next two weeks on Fridays I will have Andy Anderson the author of the “Dunoon report” on postal voting on my programme answering some hard questions 7- 8pm http://www.argyllradio.co.uk and then on the Currency issue. tonight Iwillbe having a chat with Alastair McKinnon on the campaign for the use of industrial kemp and medical marijuana before my Roc’n’rollshow at 8
The signs of unionist panic are everywhere. The polls continue to run in our direction despite the lies,. In the next two weeks on Fridays I will have Andy Anderson the author of the “Dunoon report” on postal voting on my programme answering some hard questions 7- 8pm http://www.argyllradio.co.uk and then on the Currency issue. tonight Iwillbe having a chat with Alastair McKinnon on the campaign for the use of industrial kemp and medical marijuana before my Rock’n’rollshow at 8
Polls are used to influence voter behaviour, not reflect true intentions.
It is no surprise these polls surface when Indyref2 is kicking off.
You can be sure that if there were substantial evidence of No being in the lead, it would be everywhere in the press and BBC.
I view their behaviour recently as a hint that they know the opposite is true.
Why would we believe anything they parp out after everything we have endured in the last two years?
Rather, I think we’re winning, Cal. You’re right, they are using polls as a political weapon but I don’t really think it will work for them in the long term.
A cautionary tale from our Irish friends: link to wp.me
Well I’ve filled in the survey and done my duty and will continue to do so until I get the result I want, there I’ve said it, now on STV tonight they had some brainless Yoon woman talking about how shameful Ireland were when they managed to gain their Independence (shameful) and I’m afraid that’s the level of intelligence we’re dealing with here, and much as I am a personal fan of the FM I cannot got along with this “Be nice to a Yoon” strategy
My experience of Yoons is they are by and large obnoxious moronic pedantic thick sectarian bigoted Bastirts and those are the polite names
So no, nice to a Yoon is not for me and the only view they get from me is the back of my Arse as I walk away
The BBC has decided to support the “10,000” Shipbuilders in Scotland who want to blackmail the rest of us, that’s 5,340,000 By the way into voting NO because of their jobs which are about as secure as another Andrew LLoyd Webber musical flop
Well that lot kind of remind me of the selfish 75% of pensioners who are already prepared to vote NO no matter what the circumstances in order to maintain their triple lock pension that they haven’t even realised has been reduced to only double lock now by the very same government who have been discussing removing their bus passes and heating help
Or we go to the school where a couple of posh kids lecture us on the three hundred year old successful Union (Completely uncoached of course) then the TV people find a less confident speaking kid to mumble out the Yes case because as Stu and everybody else is always pointing out, it’s only us poor uneducated on benefits subsidy junkies who want Independence
I’m sorry First Minister if you asked me to pay money for my Independence I would, If you asked me to eat less for my Independence I’d be first on that diet, If you asked me to be on the streets manning the barricades, I’m there,
But be nice to a Yoon?
Even for love I wont do that
Tinto Chiel
Gonnae no?
Very interesting contributions but we have to move on. Persuading folk how badly we’ve been treated won’t cut it.
We lost the referendum because most Scots are Haves and they didn’t vote Yes because they had concerns their lifestyle might be threatened. Selfish, possibly but a fact we must address.
The economic narrative has to provide a model which increases public revenue but also cuts tax liability substantially and is watertight. Furthermore it must be individualised so that everyone is told what’s in it for them and their families.
The only way you can show this is by replacing all current forms of taxation with an annual ground rent levied on every square meter of land and floorspace.
Dr Jim:
I posted this earlier but it didn’t go in,you said”I’ve got my
dander up”
I saw it go up,it went right over my house and crossed the
Solway Firth on a heading of South East.
Peace,Love and Dander drones.
re tory complaint to the electoral commission , a bloody cheek dosent cover it , a complaint while 29 or so tory MPs are under police investigation re suspected election expenses fraud .
even before the source of the complaint was out i knew who was at the centre of it and their very own I know the Law part time professor who sneaked in the back door at holyrood fits the bill it has his scabby finger prints all over it , Tough shit pal no cigar , oh dear how sad what a shame
CameronB Brodie: message received and understood.
I will leave such things to the Master.
Just read this OK?
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
“The only way you can show this is by replacing all current forms of taxation with an annual ground rent levied on every square meter of land and floorspace.”
Graeme, I have heard your views on this via a friend and feel it would be worthwhile to ask the Rev. to let you publish your thoughts. It is a brilliant idea: rational, fair and effective.
Have you spoken to the SG about it?
What a great post and thread…
Man, I just love it when Wingers get angry.
Just fuck-off BBC Scotland and your obvious bias slant against everything SNP, Scottish independence and anything good brought about by the Scottish government.
Tonight’s 6:30 Lies and Pish Where You Are should get some sort of award for devious anti-Scottish independence propaganda.
The report of Nicola Sturgeon’s latest announcement was treated as if someone important had died such was its downbeat feel from beginning to end.
Here’s a few sentences from Sturgeon’s speech; here’s a few words from Nicola’s interview with sausage-fingers Brian… but more importantly, here’s Ruth Davidson’s and Kezia Dugdale’s anti-Scottish independence rants in full.
And then on to the streets of Glasgow for views on IndyRef2: Two full-fat Britnat No, no, no!-ers, one probable Yes, and one possible Yes depending on Article 50.
Oh, well fucking done BBC! Note the propaganda technique of the strong No-er at the beginning, the probable/possible Yessers being more cautious, and the other full-on Britnat (English?) ranting about ‘just like’ Ireland and ‘disgrace’…!
Then back to the studio for another bout of verbal Sumo wrestling from Sausage Fingers.
So, and moving on quickly…
Fucking seething at these bastards. Scotland’s enemies. Hostile propagandists 101.
Does anyone know if the YouGov poll included opinions from 16/17 year old Scottish citizens?
in 2014 they were by far the highest % by age group to vote Yes to Independence(72% i think),
if they were not included then the poll does not truly reflect the % of Scots who would vote Yes next time.
Labour leadership contender Owen Smith has said Scotland should not have a second independence referendum – just two days after he stated he would not oppose such a ballot.
Funny old labour world init!
link to archive.is
Tinto Chiel
I think you may have taken that the wrong way. I really don’t think of myself as anything special. I’m certainly no rocket scientist but I am the product of my environment and my experience. I just can’t escape myself, no matter how hard I try.
The Nature of Evil
link to youtube.com
@Graeme McCormick
Yes, moving on, but the moving on things from the article, considering the Unionists are jumping up and down over GERS is this:
“Yet according to GERS, Scottish revenue from around half that much oil wasn’t £10bn, but just £60m”
this, which a future iScottish Government could tackle, i.e. GERS is a reflection of UK Gov policy, not possible iScotland policies:
“The upshot of the combination of privatisation, tax breaks and tax avoidance is that the UK is in effect paying multinational companies to take our oil away.”
and this:
“1. According to figures from a respected pro-Union economist, if Scotland had been independent since 1980 it would currently have a substantial surplus, even after the last two extremely bad years for oil revenue.”
whcih if Scotland gets a historical UK debt share means we go away with nothing – no debt, no interest debt shown in GERS, and one of the best debt to GDP ratios in the world.
All neatly encapsulated in one article with newspaper references.
By the way, from Sturgeon’s twitter thing and scotlandvotes:
“Holyrood prediction: SNP 71(+8), LAB 18(-6), LIB 4(-1), CON 26(-5), UKIP 0(=), GREEN 10(+4)”
@Scot Finlayson
link to d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net
for the Yougov data, sorry I’m having my tea and a rare celebratory beer
By the way, great article Stu. Absolutely spot on.
Robbed blind for centuries, and half of Scotland’s voters are ok with that, ffs!
“Fucking seething at these bastards. Scotland’s enemies. Hostile propagandists 101”
Dal Riata: it’s just Vichy Vision.
It’s all they’ve got left.
They’re trapped in the stockade, not us.
Soon to come for us: “Free at last, free at last.”
Dave McEwan Hill
Keep up the excellent work Dave- I never knew you had a radio show! Will check it out. By the way- where does one get this industrial mary jane? Asking for a friend
@call me dave
Heh! That fella has a lot to learn about international politics and statecraft. Perhaps some kind soul will point him in the direction of the UN charter – Chptr 1, Article 1, point 2.
Smith doesn’t have a say in the matter. ‘Sides he has some more mundane immediate problems to attend to you’d a thunk?
CameronB. Not at all. Words on a page aren’t very good at communicating tone. I’m sure I’m not alone in enjoying your comments.
Keep ’em coming.
No, Yougov don’t bother with 16-17 year olds, despite them not only voting in the Referendum, but voting in May this year.
At roughly a half the 18-21 figures, it would make roughly 1% more for YES, and 1% less for NO, to give approx 41% YES, 45% NO instead of 40% YES and 46% NO. 4% point gap, not 6.
That’s off the top of my shepherd’s pie which was delicious and Millers
Tam Jardine:
Tam, was it yourself that I was talking to on O/T this evening about
the 18th and you said you were bringing your daughter?
correctiom. about 0.6% each way, it’s 18-24 not 18-21
So in short:
Norway: 1.64m barrels > £20bn
Scotland: 0.86m barrels > £0.06b
What would that be per barrel? Would make a very interesting graphic.
Thanks for that. Bless WGD.
None of them can be trusted. If we can’t trust newspapers, the BBC, and the rest of the British Establishment, how on earth can we trust even the most reasonably-minded pollsters not to be compromised in some fashion? It doesn’t have to be actual conspiracy, just the same unconscious bias that exists throughout an establishment.
That’s what makes it so effective, and so dangerous. There doesn’t need to be any cloak-and-dagger clandestine gatherings in the pale moonlight – they’re all on the same page unconsciously. It’s simply “agreed” that Britain is good, separation is bad, and the majority of people are intelligent, reasonable people who surely wouldn’t support something so self-destructive… right?
If folk who are proving difficult to convince don’t want to know about national betrayal of trust, or barrels and billions stolen, by their lights historically, then put it another way.
Every pound these bastards stole was food from some family’s table. It was an electric bill unpaid, a child’s education, a pension fund. It was social housing for those who will NEVER be fortunate enough to own a home. It was a benefit payment for those fallen on hard times, a life saved in a hospital. It was all of those things and a thousand more. It was the past life expectations of a generation and the future of generations yet to come.
That parliament betrayed those in its care. A nation partner and the wider population of the UK. Those miserable F****ERS robbed, mismanaged and gambled this wealth for their own electoral benefit. They used a nation’s resource to buy and accrue power, position and privilege whilst demonising and denigrating the rightful owners, their bestest bud, in the most successful ‘family’ of nations in history.
People have literally starved the length and breadth of the UK while these unmitigated bastards bought power and privilege with that wealth.
It still goes on to this very day and WILL continue, only IF we allow it.
What KIND of country do you want to live in?
@Taranaich
He does have a way with words.
Oh here, I’ll shut up soon. I forgot to do my usual unionist style totup of votes at Holyrood (constituency).
2011 Lab+Con – 45.6%, also + Lib = 53.5%
2016 Lab+Con – 44.6%, also + Lib = 52.4%
A drop of 1% from 2011 to 2016.
Every little helps.
What no SLABSTER declaring “Bring it on”?
They are Gladys Knighting themselves and no mistake.
@yesindyref2
Ta for that,enjoy celebratory beer,
straight away notice that age polled starts at 18,
according to ICM’s survey, 75% of 110,000 16 and 17 year olds voted in Indy 1 and according to Lord Ashcroft poll 71% of 16/17 voted Yes,
my rough calculations would add over 1.5% to Yes vote taking YouGov poll to 48.5% Yes 51.5% No,
margin of error + or – 2%.
IndyRef2 campaign has to be ‘hard’ and not the ‘soft’ wishy-washy pishy let’s-be-nice-and-not-say-anything-to-upset-anyone;just-take-all-the-abuse-offense-smears-scares-and-lies-and-don’t-get-upset; boring, pishy leaflets that said fuck-all; that was ‘led’ by “The BBC isn’t biased” Blair Jenkins.
Fuck that for a game of soldiers! It is a devious, unrelenting, evil, uncompromising opponent we are up against that fought dirty to win IndyRef1. Things will be no different for them to get the desired result in IndyRef2.
Whoever leads YesScot2 will have to be someone who takes no shite from the union propagandists who will go all out to attack and smear them.
YesScot2 will have to produce hard-hitting leaflets about all the lies and thievery partaken by the unionists since forever or they can forget about the grassrooters traipsing through the muck and nettles to deliver them.
Those on the IndyRef2 side, be they politicians, YesScot2-ers or from social media if invited onto TV or radio must be more proactive and refute any and all lies and pish put forward by unionists in panels, audiences or by the presenters.
Grassrooters will continue as they have been, but working even harder to get the truth out there.
Social media will have to play an even more important role than it does at the moment.
Come Indy Day itself, more work must be done to get even more people out to vote, especially from so-called deprived areas – these are the ones who will give us the deserved Yes.
So then, the gloves should be off. We fight like with like if we have to; if they fight dirty, and they will, then we must too.
Next time we attack from the front.
It’s for our country and our children’s country. We must do everything we have to do to regain our country from our oppressors. The only thing that matters is the result – a Yes – how we got there will not matter to our descendants.
Something weird going on with all the mediocre celebs that were Indy before. All coming out with similar stuff about poverty etc.
I wonder if one of them has been offered a contract back at the BBC on condition he doesn’t rock the boat? Is the establishment getting them in other ways? Also Loki is at the wind up again. Interestingly he was whining that he hadn’t made any money out of Indy unlike some…That seemed to be a common gripe amongst the edgy radicals, that crowd funding was somehow dodgy or underhand and now they are falling over themselves to join in.
Oh well, they say everyone has their price.
And which strata of society has gained most from ownership of heavily discounted, dividend paying shares in cash cow privatised industries & utilities ?
And what of the rate of tax taken on such jollies ?
I think someone else on here might have mentioned it, but it seems awfy like it’s a Toryboy world indeed.
Another brilliant demolition of the Unionist lie machine. Why would anyone support these parasites and thieves who drain us of resources? Stockholm Syndrome may be the answer. Brainwashing certainly via the MSM plays its part.
But we have the internet and sites such as WoS. The younger generation are not so susceptible to the BBC stream of propaganda.
Scot Goes Pop has some initial thoughts published on the launch of the “conversation” and also the Yougov poll. More detailed analysis to follow.
link to talkradio.co.uk
Dave McEwan Hill – just lovin’ the tunes on your radio station – sooperb so far – was that Robert Johnson earlier? Will defo keep listening and singing along – though it makes me want to party! I’m getting up to boogy now the cat’s gone out (in fright).:-)
Ach no – not a boogying tune. 
Next one maybe?
I wondered what Alex from The Clockwork Orange would look like when he grew up. Now I know.
Taranaich@8.33pm
Yes, a “community of bias” you might call that. That’s probably what happens at BBC Shortbread. You only employ people who think the way you do (i.e. unionist) so that after a period of time all your staff are unionists. That doesn’t have to be done consciously. It’s human nature to do that. You’re not going to employ people you can’t trust, are you? So, perhaps that’s what happens with the polling companies.
The argument against a CONSPIRACY of bias is that there will always be someone who’s in on it who manages to find a couple of grams of honesy deep down in the darkest recesses of their soul that compels them to do the decent thing and blow the whistle on the whole scam thereby preventing such conspiracies from remaining secret. It’s a good argument.
On the other hand, how many dozens of people knew about the McCrone report but kept schtum…?
Jack Collatin:
Your a Droog Jack! I nearly pi&&Ed myself,gonny no dae that:-)
Peace.
O.T. I don’t do twitter so this will have to do.
@highlandian
So you want Scotland to rise up and get rid of nationalism? Glad you’ve seen the light and now seek Scotland’s emancipation. Here is some ammunition for you.
link to history.ac.uk
The World Today: Imagined Communities – On British Nationalism
link to youtube.com
Tam Jardine at 8.06
Yes. Were trying to pull it together so it’s sustainable. For a lot less than £2000 in gear (Mixing desk, computer with good hardrive, cassette player, mikes, mobile phone etc) and licences and broadband you can put together a little online radio station that can be heard all over the world by folk with broadband and/or smart phones. It can all be done on a small table. Did anybody listen tonight? I think we may have had a microphone issue when Alistair MacKinnon was talking about industrial hemp and medical marijuana. We will have him back. His group has taken a room at the SNP conference fringe on the Saturday.
Is it true that Better Together doorstepped pensioners and vulnerable people living in sheltered accommodation?
Do we have any documentary evidence? (I have a vague memory of seeing a shaky video featuring a senior SLabber I’d best not name, just in case.)
Dunno about other areas, but here in North Ayrshire there is prominent signage outside sheltered housing units expressly forbidding cold-calling of any kind, with a warning that Police and Trading Standards will be notified of any breaches. Most residents’ front doors also have labels in case the ‘seller’ missed the bigger signs.
As and when Indyref2 happens, we should be prepared to do a ‘Neighbourhood Watch’ of our local sheltered housing to make sure that the liars don’t get the chance to frighten vulnerable people again.
@Scot Finlayson
I did it quickly in my head, but there’s 119 weighted (presumably population share) out of 1039 total for 18-24 (7 years) so for 16-17 (2 years) that’s 34 voters = 3.3% of the electorate, splitting 71% YES = 2.3%, 29% NO = 1%, so roughly adding and rounding to make a total of 100%, 47.5% YES, 52.5% NO – 1.5% up YES and 1.5% down NO from YouGov’s astonishingly unrepresentative figures.
Another thing. Has the sentence, “We must be polling at or around 60% Yes for sone time before enacting a second independence referendum.” actually been said by Sturgeon (or any SNP MP or MSP)? Serious question.
I see this sentence/line quoted as if gospel by both Yessers and No-ers on social media and BTL articles. I also see the unionist press stating this 60%.
Yet, I cannot find a source for this certainty.
If someone can show that this is indeed a true statement, then thank you, and fair enough.
For now, let’s say that nobody can actually be attributed to such a quote.
Yes, to be hitting 60% Yes regularly in polls for up to a year would be amazing and fantastic for those of us who so much wish for a Yes in IndyRef2. But, come on. Really. Do you think that would even be allowed to happen by the likes of the ‘unbiased’ YouGov? Not a chance. The rUK’s ‘agencies’ and purveyors of the dark arts would make sure of that.
So then? There can be no certainty in polling, as we know. Presumably, the SNP will be keeping abreast of ‘the mood’ of the people while carrying out internal polling of their own. We must trust them with the timing of IndyRef2 to get us to the promised land of Yes.
But, for me personally, I believe they should go for it if their polling (not YouGov’s) is showing anywhere in the 50s. Yes only needs 50%+1 to win. After Brexit and the triggering of Article 50 that result should be very, very doable.
Yes, it would be better to win with as high a percentage as possible, but a win’s a win. And yes, Britnat thugs would probably try a re-enactment of George Square 19/09/2014 if it was a very narrow Yes win… but tough shit and fuck them! They’d skweam and skweam for a while, but eventually they’d piss-off back to wherever they came from to greet under their Union Jack duvets. Then Scotland would get on with being the friendly and prosperous country it was meant to be.
Waiting for a year of 60% Yes aint going to happen. After the triggering of Article 50, (unless Westminster finds some way of not Brexiting after all) Sturgeon should call IndyRef2 right there and then. It will then be winnable. Anything over 50% and independence will, at last be ours – forever.
TJenny at 9.31
No. Wasn’t Tom Johnson. I think he died before 1940. I try to play rock’n’roll and of course Johnson had huge influence on the music that was the bedrock of rock’n’roll but rock’n’roll as we recognise it springs up from about 1954 when white folks began to listen to “race music” and we good an explosive fusion of r&b,swing,country and gospel. It’s dead interesting.Music escaped from Tin Pan Alley and the big music moguls and was probably the folk music of the 20th century. If you’ve got a rock’n’roll favourite I’ll play next week.
Dave McEwan Hill – soz, I didn’t read your post until obvs discussions were over and just the tunes playing. But liking it a lot. Do you do requests?
Dal Riata
The BBC came up with the figure of 60% after the SNP conference last year. Since then it has been quoted as gospel.
SNP ‘has referendum benchmark’, BBC learns – link to bbc.co.uk
Every time you look, yoon culture in their Scotland region it makes you want to boak.
Blair McDougallVerified account
?@blairmcdougall
Man I wish everyone in Labour was as strong as @jk_rowling in defence of our values.
“But Labour won the election, suppressed the McCrone Report, and insisted that the oil would run out in a few years anyway so it didn’t matter.
Norway, meanwhile, having also discovered oil in the North Sea, used it to create a sovereign wealth fund in 1990 which is now worth approximately £658 billion.”
Smallaxe
It is indeed I- see you there.
It is no surprise to me that the SNP push is met with a wall of negativity. If anyone felt a bit down this morning with the poll and reading subsequent headlines or articles then despair not. This is all by design and these people are simply powerful arseholes. They want us to feel demotivated, and they want people to feel like independence is impossible.
This is all a mirage- a few percentage points is nothing even were the poll accurate.
Dal Riata
Amen to that- find weaknesses and exploit. Broadcast the truth in whatever means we have at our disposal. Get a job in one of the yoon motherships. This is a people’s movement and that is our strength. Each one of us needs to think long and think hard- what can I do? What can I offer? How am I going to get people to wake up?
DAve McEwan Hill – we posted at the same time! Great minds etc. (btw Robert not Tom. When do you need to know any requests by? I’ll have a wee think but I’m sure a bit of Dusty wouldn’t go amiss – cue Paula Rose.
Do you only broadcast on a Friday night?
Wonderful work Rev.
How 1984 the UK Westminster Government and the Media
friends are.
No one National Newspaper, TV Channel, or Radio Station, of which there are hundreds, is willing to do the work that the Rev does, nor is it willing to plagiarise his research and let the general public see the lie that they are living.
Sovereignty, Justice, Freedom!
Yes. 7 – 8 “Roundabout” where we talk about lots of stuff with a bit of mixed musicand 8 – 9 “Not Fade Away” when I do rock’n’roll. I’ve got a team listening from Makurdi in Benue State, Nigeria and I’ve played a request for them.
CameronB Brodie says:9:50pm.
I have read your very interesting post,may I ask a serious
question.when I was at Primary School I was given prizes on
a few occasions for being first in class.I was given on three
occasions,a book of savings stamps and a book!First book:Robin
Hood: 2nd.Tarzan and finally Robinson Crusoe.
In your opinion,do you think that there was any correlation?
Peace.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent”
Eleanor Roosevelt
We live in the nation that led the period of enlightenment. Do not give them your consent.
We can build a far better society than the abomination that emerged from an Empire designed to protect the interests of an elite few.
We need to win this campaign for the next generation.
Dave McEwab Hill – far reaching eh? I think we have to have a dedication to oor very own Rev, so Dusty Springfield’s ‘Son of a Preacher Man’ would hit the spot, thanx.
DMcEH – oops, soz for typo in your name.
I judge that such is the level of distortion,misinformation and actual untruths spewing in co-ordination out of all the media that this is the time to get moving. They are in disarray and they must know that there has n been a change in the demographic over the last two years. We may have lost some of the easily led but we have gained mostly the wellinformed
TJenny
Done.
The Daily Mail has a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it “Clarifications & corrections” box at the bottom of its page 2.
Today, September 2, they had this to say:
“In an article on August 30, we stated that Yes Scotland has nearly £500,000 of debt. In fact. this figure relates to the organisation’s financial position in October 2014. We are happy to make it clear that Yes Scotland currently has no debt and we apologise for this error.”
So, in a prominent article on August 30, they lied about Yes Scotland having £500,000 of debt in August of this year, 2016. In actuality, Yes Scotland currently has no debt at all!
But they’ve apologised in their blink-and-you’ll-miss-it wee box at the bottom of page two… so that’s all right then. FFS! Sigh!
@TJenny –
Dunno if you’ve been keeping a low profile or I’ve been missing your comments, but feels like ages since I’ve ‘seen’ you.
Hope all well.
Glasgow Green?
Tam Jardine:
Can you catch me on O/T,about the 18th at the Green.
No Rush:-)
Peace.
@Legerwood at 10:06 pm
Thanks for that clarification!
The BBC, eh!? Who woulda thunk it!
Ian B -Hi , I’m always hereabouts just don’t post often, and it is ages since I’ve seen y’all and have missed you too. Aye, I’d like to go to GG on 18th – is it far from Queen St + George Square? (Only part of Glasgow I know) If so, taxi from Qst it’ll have to be – anyone else from Edinburgh going through by train and we could meet up for travelling?
DMcEH Thank you.
xxx
@TJenny –
It’s not that far from the Square – mibbe 10 mins walk? Thereabouts. Mind you, that’s just to the entrance and the Green’s a big place…I’m not sure what bit we’ll be at…
It’ll all unfold in the coming days and I’m sure Ronnie A will issue detailed instructions right here.
Be great to see you again!
IanB – thanks, I suppose I can always follow the stream of Saltires and Wings banners.
TJenny
Aye… will post something OT before hand
Tam J – lovely, and great that it’s on a sunday so you can attend.
@ian brotherhood
Don’t know about indyref but look who was going round the care homes of Galloway on 5th May this year link to mobile.twitter.com
There are some very vulnerable people in this particular home
Dal riata at 10.47 this is what is wrong with the press regulators and why this should be devolved along with broadcasting. Not everyone can afford to take the Daily Mail or Daily Express to court for blatand lies.
From WOS twitter, Loki has referred to us as Wings service droids – I feel the need for a new badge!
Wings Service Droid and Proud!
Dal Riata says:at 10:47 pm
“The Daily Mail has a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it “Clarifications & corrections” box at the bottom of its page 2.”
I though legislation from 1st January 2016 was that any retractions/corrections had to be the same size/position as the original article/statement as opposed to hidden away.
@ Dal Riata at 9.58
Re: 60% sustained in polls
In this article : link to talkradio.co.uk
James Kelly of Scot Goes Pop! mentions that it was John Curtice who touted that figure, though he has apparently changed his mind since the EU referendum.
Smallaxe
Thanks for your confidence in my abilities, though my field of knowledge is quite limited and more than a little rusty.
Your first prize does appear to fit with the norms and values of a modernist Victorian form of socialistic British nationalism. You second also possibly fits as an example of the superiority of English aristocratic blood, though I may be reaching a bit here. I know Daniel Defoe was an English agent and propagandist against Scotland, though I’m not aware of any Robinson Crusoe connection with that purpose. However, I’m not particularly literary.
Sorry I can’t be any more help.
Dal Riata @ 10.54
Who would have think it indeed! I actually was watching the BBC news when they announced the figure of 60% and thought they had made it up. The FM had been very careful in her speech and in interviews afterwards not to put a figure on it. Thereafter every news source quoted the figure as gospel.
Could old Sky paper review attacks Indy with no indy supporter. Democratic balance uk style. Britannia rules the airwaves
Late night Daily Heil roaster anyone? Far right toryboy says NO, shock.
link to archive.is
An unwanted gamble with our future prosperity, reputation and influence has been forced on us in part by English nationalists, many of whom are no less unappealing than the wide-eyed, hollow-skulled, gape-mouthed cybernats who ultimately did so much harm to the Yes campaign. Sometimes, we learn, the zoomers win?—?that’s democracy.”
Can you still be a gape-mouthed cybdernat, if you’re hollow-eyed and wide-skulled, is the real question.
Chris Deerin, another automaton of British colonialism ensures he gets paid for another week’s work.
Agree entirely with “Dal riata” tonight post at 0910 pm . It certainly now appears that Indy ref 2 is likely with ” Teresa hard Brexit” ( or is this an opening gambit). Anyway, if and when the campaign commences, can we please get on the front foot from ” the off” and not be continually on the
defensive ( trying to defend gers, defend currency union, etc.) How about ” taking the gloves off” and going on the attack ( after all it is the best form of defence).
Can we start with pensions and commit to an independent Scotland ” promise” to increase the state pension eventually to ” the European average” instead of the meagre UK pension one of the lowest in Europe.
Thereafter , can we highlight the fact that all reserved powers AND ASSOCIATED WHITEHALL JOBS will be repatriated to Scotland. ( How many thousands of London employed civil servants are being paid for and at what cost to ” administer ” reserved powers by Scottish taxpayers. These jobs would be repatriated to Scotland under independence and the not inconsiderable salaries would be spent in Scotland. Therefore can we please GET THE INFORMATION OUT during the forthcoming campaign that for instance :
The ENERGY ministry will be based in say Aberdeen and X amount of jobs will be required to be filled.
The HOME office will be based in say Edinburgh ditto jobs.
The Trade& Industry ministry will be in say Glasgow ditto jobs
The ministry of Tourism & Environment will say be in Inverness etc
The Defence ministry will be in say Stirling etc.
The ministry of agriculture& fisheries will say be located in Perth
The ministry of transport in Dundee
I am sure there are many other government ” agencies& quangos ” operating ” on a UK basis where many other thousands of jobs can be repatriated to Scotland ( of the top of my head I can think of DVLC ( Swansea )and SIA ( security industry authority based in Liverpool , where Scots cannot work in their own country without having to apply every 3 years to England for a licence to work).
There must be many other ” Civil service/ gov agency jobs to be repatriated, and perhaps someone should ” do the maths” and calculate the value of this to an Independent Scottish economy, as at present all of this UK civil service/ gov agency employment is of benefit to principally London& Home Counties.
Our capital city as ” a sovereign European capital” would benefit enormously from being an Independent capital ( embassies etc.) Again perhaps someone could calculate the benefit to the local economy and thereafter the info can be ” given to the voters”.
Can we also quantify the economic benefit to Scotland of not having to pay for trident or future military interventions such as Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, etc.
The Unionists continue with the economic propaganda eg. Gers , currency, subsidy myth etc. Can we please if we move to Indyref 2 get on the ” front foot ” on this and start outlining the economic benefits of Independence with the repatriation of tens of thousands of government jobs to our own communities/ cities.The unionists must be tackled head on as regards the waste& mismanagement of the Westminster establishment including Whitehall , The House of Lords etc. The Scottish taxpayer is at present ” paying” for these jobs ( pro rata) to be based in London & Home Counties.
That article, Rev Stu, is simply just brilliant.
Or as they tend to say in the West of Scotland, “Pure dead brilliant”.
CameronB Brodie:
Thank you for your most interesting reply sir, I had much the same thoughts as your good self,Tarzan,the most obvious,Earl of Greystoke:Robin Hood,thank you for your insight,I shall
certainly give that more thought in the direction of your
kind remarks: Robinson Crusoe however shall remain a puzzle,or
it came about through blind chance,more likely!
I am much obliged to you sir.
Peace,Love and Literature.
The First Minister has announced a National conversation for everybody to have their say and opinions noted in the interests of our country
The Davidson party and the Dugdale party and the Rennie party and the BBC party and the printed press party want Scotland NOT to be allowed to talk or have a conversation
I wonder what the opinion of other countries is on the UK position of trying to halt the discussion and free speech of a Nation
Earlier I mentioned North Korea, will the UK be locking up any of our poets, actors, authors or learned folk for speaking their mind
Have you at any time or know of anyone who supported the SNP,
Didn’t America try this before, and China and Russia and Germany, oh and I nearly forgot, England in every country they have occupied
They don’t like reminded that concentration camps were not invented by the Nazis, but guess who?
Where’s Robert Peffers when you need him but I believe it was Lord Kitchener who first came up with that one
When the “UK” talks about democracy and freedom of speech absolutely no one should ever pay attention to them, they’ve wiped out hundreds of thousands of peoples all over the world for having the temerity to speak their minds against the wishes of their masters and the great mother in England
Once you convince the people to justify killing in the name of democracy it gets easier and easier to kill lots and lots more and then blame it on those people you convinced in the first place
In more recent times “The wind that shakes the barley” is a good read, or watch the movie for a good example of English democracy and allowing free speech
I’ve not set this out very well and for that I apologise but I’m a little tired tonight and not so well so G’nite all
Chris Deerin, Definition FUD.
See also Torrance, Foote, Dailsley etc. etc. etc.
FUDs.
Dr Jim @ 12:36hrs
Correct.
British in Boer War invented the Concentration Camp to target support/shelter given to the Boers by civilian population.
Credited to Kitchener.
Estimated minimum 27,000 women and children perished.
One womans National conversation, is another womans Indyref2 mandating opinion poll, with added information dissemination opportunities.
——————-
Check out the twitter thingy. This years ‘Cereal’ isn’t too subtle.
“Talk to the hand”
“They are simply harvesting info from us to USE against us ”
Harvesting !
At this stage, one has to conclude that such (not infrequent) examples of idiotic desperation indicates that Indy is now a foregone conclusion.
Freedom gained, to the sound of laughter.
That would make a change !
How much are TV ads on STV?
Perhaps a campaign around supper time with 3 key aspects that explains and appeals to soft no voters. The media will jump all over it with their bias and then a second set of ads a week to 10 days later shaming and disproving the media slant
Defo:
Harvesting,you say,Dont eat the Soylent Green,I’ve seen what’s
in it!
Peace Love and Diet tips:-)
I had to come back on again when I saw the Yoon anti conversation poster talking about the harvesting of information
Don’t these Yoons realise that when the time comes only those who have smeared the blood of a newly slaughterd lamb on their door will save them from the wrath of the almighty Sturgeon as she sweeps her plagues across the land where only the chosen will survive
So the answer is join the SNP and save your first borns and indeed all your children you benighted selfish obnoxious racist bigoted bastirts
Talk to the hand, have you ever seen or heard of such a bunch of toadying creepo Yoons who are prepared to take free prescriptions free tuition fees the best health care in the UK the lowest recorded crime rate in over 40 years the most council houses ever built the most infrastructure projects ever completed, and then say they want to stick with the UK who would take every single one of those advantages away at a stroke (Brexit = TTIP)
And you know what they’d say when that happens,”That SNP never told us this was going to happen it’s all their fault”
The First Minister is a patient Saint, I however have not now or ever any time for Yoons because this is always their answer “Fingers in ears we’re no listening we don’t care”
I’ve got my lambs blood ready First Minister, Plague away and smite the Bastirts
Dr Jim:
Suffer the little yoons to come unto me,and I will kiss them,
For mine is the Kingdom of Glasgow.
And nothing beats a Glasgow Kiss!
Peace,Love and Plasters:-)
@highlandian
Here’s some more ammunition for you mate. Perhaps a bit Marxian for your taste?
link to amazon.co.uk
@highlandian
If political imaginings (theory) is not your cup of tea, what about some philosophy? If that’s the case then Satre’s Colonialism and Neocolonialism is for you.
link to amazon.co.uk
link to strongwindpress.com
@highlandian
This could also be useful to you mate.
link to amazon.co.uk
Links
link to mrmalkysblog.blogspot.co.uk
link to thecommongreen.wordpress.com
link to holyrood.com
link to talkradio.co.uk
link to sustainablesecurity.org
link to theferret.scot
link to energydesk.greenpeace.org
link to ipsnews.net
Labour in Scotland rightly suffered the consequences of its eagerness to do Westminster’s dirty work during IndyRef1. It looks like the bbc in Scotland will rightly suffer the same fate when it does Westminster’s dirty work during IndyRef2.
Good morning Nana:
Peace,Love and understanding.
Nothing funny about that!
Folks it’s worth looking at the following web page. It only goes back to 1989 unfortunately but it is a representation of the UK finances in different sectors…
link to 3spoken.co.uk
As you can see the UK (as do most other countries), has run deficits most of the time. It is interesting to note that during that period Scotland was for the most part was probably running surpluses. So actually rUK was still having to suck off the govt teet even with the oil revenues. (Anything below the X axis is a deficit)
What’s most striking about these sectoral diagrams is that the deficits are mirror images of the surpluses. That’s basically just accounting.
So if the UK gov wants to run a surplus (above the X axis) it means there must be a defict of equal size somewhere else. So there are two ways to balance this govt surplus..
1) by revenue from exports
2) by the domestic sector (households, business, finance) borrowing.
As the UK AS A WHOLE runs a trade deficit (imports more than it exports) our successive governments since the 80s have tried to run PRIVATE SECTOR DEFICITS. (Can be seen by the orange strips below the X axis)
This is what caused our financial crisis in 2008. Basically mismanagement of the economy.
A govt that issues its own currency can run deficits indefinitely. The private sector (you and me) cannot.
Smallaxe @9.20 2/9/16.
The parallel course of our formative years on the Clydeside get spookier and spookier.
My Primary School prizes were , ‘Kidnapped, and ‘Treasure Island’, awarded ‘for proficiency’.
Israel Hands, Blind Pugh, the Admiral Benbow Inn, the Black Spot, Long John Silver, the slaying of the Red Fox, the House of Shaws. Brilliant and magical to a ten year old.
And an early lesson that the gentry laid claim to everything, as a matter of course.
Robinson Crusoe had his black Man Friday; a handy slave to do all the heavy lifting.
Rider Haggard’s adventure Yarns ; King Solomon’s Mines’, ‘She’, and those pocket sized ‘War comics’ ensured that we were brainwashed British Empire lackeys from a very early age.
I fear that this indoctrination may explain in part the obdurate No vote.
Dan Dare, Alf Tupper, Tough of the Track, Lord Snooty, and the whole Jings Crivvens Help Ma Boab culture barely considered Scotland as a separate entity.
Billy Bunter, Just William, the Famous Five, and so on..There will always be an England. Working class types included for comic relief. Foreigners were always crooks. Sinister Chinamen, unshaven French types with a bicycle ,strings on onions draped across the handlebars, and all that.
WE were British Empire serfs, knew our place, brainwashed from birth.
May you be in your version of heaven, half an hour before the de’il knows that you’re deid.
Does anybody believe that polling organisations like YouGov who use panels do not store the details of how their panel members voted in previous polls enabling them to build up profiles of individual panel members’ views?
When polls are commissioned it is therefore easy for the polling company to select those members of their panel whose views coincide with the result desired by the commissioning organisation.
How convenient was it for BT that just days before REF1 the one and only poll showing YES in the lead surfaced?
The polling companies don’t even have to tell lies – all they have to do is select those panel members which will give them the result they want.
Wow, so the Scot gov announce a listening exercise to find out what Scots think of independence and the EU, and the unionists descend into utter lunacy.
I do believe the unionists are feart. They should be. This time we WILL win.
Like the Tories does the Daily Express never check out facts before printing their front page total nonsence.
Yessers,remember your place,just,”Shut Up and Sing”….(ref : Dixie Chicks)
link to youtube.com
Just caught an article on ‘The National’ website about Scotland’s number one tennis player, Andy Murray.
It begins… “BRITAIN’S Andy Murray admits he must capitalise on the chance to win grand slams when his rivals are not at their best…”
Jeez. Get that sorted FFS! You ain’t gonna get many new subscribers with tosh like that.
P.S the capitalisation of the first word is straight from the article.
Forgot for the above, source :link to thenational.scot
Robert Louis says:I do believe the unionists are feart.
I agree Robert,there is some explosive knowledge written in
the WOS posts,and I am sure their afraid that this knowledge
would enlighten ordinary members of the public.
This is an excellent sign that we have to get it out of these
pages and put it through every letterbox in Scotland.Peace.
ScottieDog
Thatcher’s decade saw our economic growth being eliminated and diverging significantly from the rest of the UK. I think if we were able to get a full picture of this during peak oil in the mid 80s we would be amazed. The sheer scale of the disposal of assets and industrial carnage while London sucked it all in like a sponge is amazing and terrible.
We were still paying for the Falklands in the late 80’s (£2.8 billion cost estimated) although this is small beer compared with the decade of money flowing south from the North Sea. I went through a phase of investigating earlier in the year from the PM archive release but the scale of the task is probably beyond my abilities and the time I have.
If you are interested I can send you some fascinating letters from the data release- unless you or someone else can tell me how to extract some pages from massive PDFs and magically put them on the internet for all to see.
I’m not too about this article.
It might be a good idea to promote the idea that Scots are subsidy junkies waiting for their next fix of English taxpayers money especially to taxpayers in England.
This could lead to taxpayers in England demanding independedence from Scotland. It would be interesting to hear what ‘Better Together’ would say to these English taxpayers. Explain why they are ‘Better Together’
It would also be interesting to hear what Scottish Unionists say about being subsidy junkies.
Have there been any articles/polls focusing on the English taxpayer and why they think they are ‘Better Together’ or why the Scottish Unionists are happy to be subsidy junkies/scroungers?
We need the English red tops to give Scots the same treatment as they did immigrants during the EU Ref and before you know it the Labour Party in England would be including a ‘Scotland Out’ referendum in their next manifesto.
carjamtic:
So,so true!
Peace and Love always to All people.
@ Tam Jardine
Get Cutepdf writer. You can “print” individual pages of a document as pdf files. I use it for catalogue pages or pages from service manuals at work. Its easy to use.
I am experimenting separately with clipping bits of pdf’s but am not competent at it yet. Mostly so I can print boarding passes without all the ink wastage ad crap our bucket airlines inflict on us. I have succeeded a couple of times, but am not up to speed.
Ruby
In the nicest possible way I completely disagree- this is the best article Stu has written in months, perhaps even this year.
It is the Scottish soft no voters we need to get on board of all classes and shining a light on the mismanagement of Scotland’s riches is what is required- debunking all the myths along the way.
My previous post should read ‘I’m not too sure about this article’
Reading these articles can be very frustrating because they usually end up with readers asking the question:
‘How do you prevent people being manipulated by the MSM’
Trying to find the answer to that question is very frustrating & depressing.
Ruby has a point, I have to say.
smallaxe@8.32.
The Yoons are feart alright.
Project fear has been proven to be a complete load of BLX, so they are now scrambling to find their next salvo to fire.
The continuing rise of the Scottish Independence movement, was something the Empire never envisaged after our defeat in 2014.
They are totally delusional if they think they can fire off the same lies and garbage at Indy2,hence the yoons are “bricking it”.
Hope you and Mrs smallaxe are keeping fine.
Smallaxe @.32 am.
for Charlton Heston to be such a right wing gun nut, it still puzzles why he appeared in three of the most thought provoking Apocalypse movies of the Twentieth Century:
‘Soylent Green’
‘The Omega Man’
‘Planet of the Apes’.
Was there a frustrated liberal Democrat lurking within, bursting to get out, I wonder?
Ah, the lightness of being.
@Ruby 8:42am
It’s already happening. England and its media, our media in other words, is vitriolic in its attitude to Jocks. It’s ironic that britnats in Scotland seem to think England believes in “better together”. Rather, britnats in Scotland are England’s useful little idiots.
As for the MSM in Scotland: boycott it. Don’t buy britnat newspapers, or visit their websites. Don’t pay the bbc tax. Aye, it will take time but these britnat institutions are on their way out.
Smallaxe et al – you are right – there is a massive amount of info in these pages, articles, even the cartoons are a powerful weapon.
As far as i see it, there are 5 groups of people out there:
1) Hard No (ra peepul, OO, fat-pensioned “I’m alright Jack” retirees et al)
2) Soft No (prob a lot of Labour, some Lib Dem, maybe the odd enlightened tory who could possibly be shifted)
3) Genuine dont know (need a lot of info – like is on these pages)
4) Soft Yes (maybe got a doubt or 2, need reassuring)
5) Hard Yes (like most WoS i suspect
)
Resources should be aimed at groups 2 3 and 4, esp 2 and 3
As far as Group 1 is concernnd, it should be gloves off time.
I wouldnt care to hazard a guess at the percentages of these groups in our population -anyone got any ideas?
Ruby
‘How do you prevent people being manipulated by the MSM’
That is the biggest challenge we face and one that has no easy answers. Yet answer it we must if we are to win and avoid being sidelined as a colony for the stretching long into the future.
On that cheerful note- enjoy your weekend!
Something to bear in mind. If the Yoons thought they would win the next Indy Ref, they wouldnt be trying so hard not to have one.
Jack Collatin:
Good morning Jack,it is rather a conundrum is it not!
As long as we don’t wake up some morning and find ourselves
re-enacting the last scene from Planet of the Apes.
As usual Jack,Peace,Love and Prosperity,to you and yours.
Chapter 1 – Organising Chaos
The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.
We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings cooperate in this manner if they are to live together in a smoothly functioning society.
(from Propaganda, by Edward Bernays – 1928)
north chiel at 12.29
With you entirely.
We keep fighting on battlefields chosen by our enemies.
The currency issue,the Gers figures and so on are peripheral. They are details that will be readily dealt with as we negotiate our independence having won the vote on the vision of a better Scotland. “Details” are all Better Together have and they are promoted to the status of defining issue when they are not.On all indicators – GNP, GDP etc – Scotland is a wealthy country.
Our campaign should be of comparison to similar small countries providing better societies and better futures to its people on a lot less in resources than Scotland has.
When we establish that in the minds of our less well informed that Scotland is economically well balanced all the “facts and figures” of our opponents go out the window – and these are their only compelling arguments
@ Scottie dog
There is a perhaps deliberate confusion of different economic issues in the ether.
This is a simplification.The UK government provides a lot of public services. Education, pensions, NHS, etc. These are notionally paid for from taxes. The deficit is the difference between what is paid out and what is raised in taxes.
The “country” trades internationally. So it buys and sells goods and services to other countries. If it sells more than it buys it runs a trade surplus. And it runs a trade deficit if the reverse is true.
The government current account could be massively in deficit while the trade position is massively in surplus. And it is here that there is a divergence between Scotland and rUK.
Scotland exports petroleum, whisky and food. ( simplified remember ) It is self sufficient in energy, water and food. If it was North Korea it would be able to survive. rUK net imports 2 out of the above 3 essentials for life.
So we start at ground zero in a fortunate position.
A government running a deficit on its tax and spend account borrows money. Once upon a time it was based on gold, but nowadays its based on “fiat money”. This great system of pretend “money” has led to a massive boom in the world, huge increases in standards of living for many people, and excessive exploitation of the single habitable planet and ecosystem around the Sun star.
What has become “normal” is for the government to borrow money, and then have it inflated away. Kind of like how you used to buy a house, pay a mortgage and end up with a house you owned outright having paid the same as you would have in rent. But it was now “worth” more than the interest and capital you borrowed to buy it in the first place. And thats the bit thats not working just now. Inflation is stubbornly low. The government is terrified of deflation.
Now this administration has gone a big step further. They have magicked up QE. So they don’t even borrow the money any more. They just spend it. They have screwed up the tax system – pandering to giant corporations and to their richer party donors – so that they cannot get in enough taxes to cover anywhere near their spending. And that is the “deficit” they go on about. The shortfall in taxes versus expenditure by the government.
Now into the mix they have the Scots. We have high demands on public services. We have lots of older people, and perhaps sicker people than other bits of rUK. But the older people typically don’t live longer than folks in Kent. Some of the sickness is caused by our native approach to alcohol, tobacco and drug taking. And our own government is trying to do something about all of these. We do, however, contribute to the tax take. But we don’t actually know just how much we contribute. And the rUK prefers it that way.
Now any country which has self sufficiency in the basics of life is not a basket case. It starts from a good position. With a bit of intelligence ( Scotland has produced plenty of Nobel prizewinners ), it should be perfectly possible to devise a system of taxation which captures enough to fund the public services expected by the population. Why would anyone assume that the UK gets it right. It has run deficits for years? It also runs a trade deficit. It thinks it is better for spivs to charge someone 4000% interest than to make a living manufacturing something of tangible value.
It does not have to be like this. We need to get out.
‘How do you prevent people being manipulated by the MSM’?
Education! Propaganda only works on the unenlightened.
Tam Jardine says:
3 September, 2016 at 9:17 am
Ruby
‘How do you prevent people being manipulated by the MSM’
That is the biggest challenge we face and one that has no easy answers. Yet answer it we must if we are to win and avoid being sidelined as a colony for the stretching long into the future.
On that cheerful note- enjoy your weekend!
Ruby replies
You too have a good week-end and don’t forget to buy your lottery ticket. If we had enough money we could buy a few newspapers etc and do our own ‘manipulation’.
I have two very hairy dugs. Because they are so very, very hairy, their very hairy bahookies, very regularly, cry out for a post-walkie, bahookie dooking.
I have, in fact, mastered the art of washing very hairy bahookies down to a veritable art form.
WTF, (I hear you murmur), do yer dugs’ arses have to do with the great political fissure of our day (unionism v. self-government)? Quite.
Well, not much really. It’s just this. Every day that I am mid-bahookie rinse, and smelling the sweet reek (of the jasmine & roses dog shampoo on special from TKMAXX that week), I am reminded of Wings and other yessers.
Not in the way you might immediately jump to conclude. It’s just this. Every day the MSM and Yoons will manufacture shit to do us down. Every day, relentlessly.
But everyday too, Stu, et al, are going to carry on, doggedly, washing all the shit down the plughole.
That’s all. Now, I must go walk the dugs.
James Westland says:”it should be gloves off time.”
Perhaps James,larger gloves are needed,then maybe the SNP would have a better chance when they step into the ring!
Peace.
@gus1940
Yes agree with you there. I would not trust You Gov polls at all.
They were consistently behind the rest for most of Indyref and then pulled a shocker out of the bag with a Yes lead in the weeks before the referendum in order to ramp up Project Fear when the huge private polling was also suggesting a Yes win.
They were ‘Kellner corrected’ as the You Gov boss has high level links to the Labour party.
The polling companies especial You Gov will have been told to dampen down Indyref2 as much as possible and Prof Curtice will be pulled out to say their is no demand for Indyref2.
Maybe it is time for Rev Stu to do another of his polls to see what is really happening and how Brexit has affected matters?
davidb says:”Some of the sickness is caused by our native approach to alcohol, tobacco and drug taking.”
Great post David, I don’t want to sound like a pendant,but,
Alcohol and Nicotine are two of the most deadly of all drugs.
Peace Always.
Excerpt from Chapter 2 – The New Propaganda,
from Propaganda by Edward Bernays – 1928
It was, of course, the astounding success of propaganda during the war that opened the eyes of the intelligent few in all departments of life to the possibilities of regimenting the public mind.
The American government and numerous patriotic agencies developed a technique which, to most persons accustomed to bidding for public acceptance, was new. They not only appealed to the individual by means of every approach — visual, graphic, and auditory to support the national endeavor, but they also secured the cooperation of the key men in every group – persons whose mere word carried authority to hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of followers.
They thus automatically gained the support of fraternal, religious, commercial, patriotic, social and local groups whose members took their opinions from their accustomed leaders and spokesmen, or from the periodical publications which they were accustomed to read and believe.
Link to free download of PDF of Propaganda by Edward Bernays
link to wikispooks.com
Our country was lost under tha act of union when 98% of people were against it so why is felt that around 60% is necessary before we go for independence, it just is’nt attainable.Even if this poll is accurate then we are in a far stronger position than the last time and the campaign itself is what will decide the result.There are plenty who did’nt vote its up to us to get to them out and voting. The message does’nt need to be complicated make them feel proud to be Scottish and independent and give them some real hope.
@davidb
Thanks
I would add about QE that it’s not really the act of creating money to spend (if only it was!). Instead the BoE uses it to buy up govt debt from pension funds etc. this benefits those with the most amount of stock – the wealthiest. The idea behind it is that these people will trickle the proceeds of that down into the real economy. It didn’t happen. The proceeds were invested in more stocks and shares which were appreciating (due to the act of QE in itself).
So the attitude of the UK govt and BoE is – if it doesn’t work, do it again!
The deficit in itself is reactionary. It responds via automatic stabilisers to the activity in the rest of the economy. The fact is, although it is counterintuitive to many, we need to increase deficits to stimulate the private and export sector. That will reduce the spending gap down the line, as taxes increase. Belt tightening in the current climate will make the situation worse.
It’s a bit like we are told when learning to drive, which way to turn in the event of a skid. It is natural to want to turn in the opposite direction, yet we are taught to turn into the skid. It works the same way with deficits. We have been brainwashed into thinking that govt finances are like those of a household but what works at the micro doesn’t work at the macro level. It s different.
Like you say, we live in a fiat money system, most of which is currently created by private banks. We aren’t restricted by how much money we can create but by the resources we can squire either on our own soil or through exporters accepting our currency for their resources.
Meant to ask. What is the significance of a character from The Clockwork Orange saying “Scots are subsidy junkies”?
So apparently support for Scottish Independence is now no higher than it was at the referendum, despite the fact that Scotland is now being dragged out of Europe against her will, and we will now have continuous Tory rule for decades to come.
I would be very surprised if there are many people falling for these bogus Yoon polls.
However, I would not be surprised if there was a secret UK Government Department called, ‘Let’s Generate Timely Shit Independence Polls and Rebrand all thing Scottish as British and oh yeah Maximise the Subliminal British Nationalism Identity Crap through their Brainwashing Box.
Don’t you just love being part of this wonderful Better Together union. Can you not feel the love, no me neither.
galamcennalath:
Nothing significant my friend,it’s all to do with how Lord
Monckton appears at the top of the thread.
Peace Always.
Galamcennalath:
Then again there may be more significance than I first thought!
In an England of the future, Alex (Malcolm McDowell) and his “Droogs” spend their nights getting high at the Korova Milkbar before embarking on “a little of the old ultraviolence,” while jauntily warbling “Singin’ in the Rain.” After he’s jailed for bludgeoning the Cat Lady to death, Alex submits to behavior modification technique to earn his freedom; he’s conditioned to abhor violence. Returned to the world defenseless, Alex becomes the victim of his prior victims.
Director: Stanley Kubrick
Peace Always.
Robert Louis says:
3 September, 2016 at 8:30 am
Just caught an article on ‘The National’ website about Scotland’s number one tennis player, Andy Murray.
It begins… “BRITAIN’S Andy Murray admits he must capitalise on the chance to win grand slams when his rivals are not at their best…”
Jeez. Get that sorted FFS! You ain’t gonna get many new subscribers with tosh like that.
P.S the capitalisation of the first word is straight from the article.
EVERY article starts in capital like that.
You are right though. They copy paste straight from source without correction. One of the reasons I am thinking about not renewing my subscription I have had since the paper began. It all started going pearshaped when they changed Chief Editor. Now they employ the likes of Micheal Fry to write articles about how superior he is in his view.
The trouble is, there is no other pro-indy newspaper out there. What to do?
@Smallaxe
“larger gloves are needed”
Never mind the larger gloves, we need to put horseshoes in ’em.
Robert Louis @ 8.31am
Robert, stop finding UKOK conspiracy when none exists, allow me to explain.
Andy Murray’s “home” association – the one which enters him into the big tournaments, is the Lawn Tennis Association. This is a UK-wide organisation, which covers the whole of the United Kingdom.
Therefore, he is British. OK, everyone known he is Scottish, but, the Scottish LTA is a subservient, component part of the UK-wide LTA. It’s not like football or rugby, where Scotland is independent internationally.
On the circuit, the Scot Andy Murray is British, live with it.
As to capping-up BRITAIN: this was the first word of the body of the article, the style guide for the National demands the first word of any article is capped-up, this is fairly-common newspaper style, nothing sinister in it.
Trevor Bailey is not a National staff writer. I believe he works for the news agency the Press Association, which, as far as I know, does not have an axe to grind when it comes to politics. PA I have always found, attempts to be strictly neutral in all it does.
@ T Jenny, if you’re unsure of Glesga, get the train at the Waverley which goes through Bathgate & Airdrie for Queen Street Low Level. Get off at the High Street Station & walk straight down the High Street/Saltmarket right to The Green. On the way back the Merchant Chippy at High Street/Ingram Street corner is superb. Fish Supper £4.70 last time I was in.
In The National paper version on page 36 and 37 Murray is a Scot.
No mention of British. Funny old online headline, maybe a lure to encourage others to have a peek.
Konta, who I like a lot,good player, is also British I see but probably got a kangaroo tattooed on her arse.
X-word is a. ?&#@@ today but I’m getting there
I’ve watched Andy Murray progress since his first Wimbledon win against George Bastl in 2005. He has regularly been called a Scot, win or lose, when they don’t have to, as Socrates explains above. Henman was almost always referred to as a Brit as was Kyle Edmund last night although I only watched a brief part of his match. I haven’t really minded the “Scottish when he loses” stuff as if it makes even one person want indy then all well and good but we don’t half hear a lot of ill informed nonsense.
Very little media coverage of Nicola restarting the next independence campaign. No surprises there. “Nothing to see there – move on folks!” Ruthie’s clever response (petition) seems to be a bold move to gather info on yoon supporters o be targeted for future elections. All Kezia and her red tories have managed to do is carp from the sidelines as usual. Kezia had better think of something fast – Ruth pushed you to third place in May and she is still going for your red tory yoon voters. Your party is in real danger of being constitutionally sqeeezed out of existence.
Got my Wings flag via AyeMail today. It’s fantastic! Thanks for that.
Here we go on Sept 18th.
Shopping. Newspaper stand. Britnat Daily Mail bleating: What part of No don’t you understand?! A pathetic wee threat there. Tee hee. Britnats don’t like it up ’em.
CameronB Brodie at 9.29
“Propaganda only works on the unenlightened.”
Exactly, which I why the media unerringly aims all its arguments at the lowest common denominator. I call it “the half-wit factor” which is harsh. But never personally directed at anyone.
The weakness of the Union’s position is of course this very fact. The easily led are, in fact, easily led and if you have control of the news and the propaganda you have a huge advantage.
The easily led are easily led by opinion formers around them and when,as is now happening,the well informed are moving to us the advantage of our enemies is diminishing. Which is why we are now in the realms of demonstrable panicky nonsense in our unionist media. Their present frenzy is evidence that they know they are steadily losing.
Ruth Davidson’s present idiot behaviour merely understates that (a) she is no political figure of any stature and (b) she is terrified of another referendum because she knows they will lose it.
Her simple and sufficient response, if she had any judgement at all, would be “Bring it on. We’ll beat you again”
Let’s all ask her why she is terrified of another referendum.
The latest piece in the YouGov poll putting her ahead of Nicola Sturgeon in popularity ratings (on a 19% of the vote position and losing support to an SNP that is increasing in it) is of course total bollocks and sinks the rest of the survey comprehensively.
How often do we have to say that YouGov is bollocks?
It’s funny James Westland at 9:15, I suppose I would have to be a hard Yes by definition, and yet I probably wouldn’t describe myself as one.
I see YES to NO as a spectrum. Positive YES issues, (or negative NO issues) shunt me towards the YES end of the spectrum, and vice versa. A weak YES argument or positive No argument will recover lost ground for NO, and I’ll shuffle a couple of clicks in that direction. I like to consider myself wholly objective in such matters, that is, not carried along by any euphoria or sentiment, and yet here I sit, based upon strict observance of those very criteria, positioned at the very extreme end of the YES spectrum scratching for the door to be opened so I can move a little further in the YES direction.
I am won over by the YES arguments, YES principles, and integrity of the YES position. In contrast, Unionism has no constructive arguments, no positive case to put for the Union, they are inconstant about principles; distorting, misrepresenting, manipulating, and outright lying about the truth, and as a consequence, Unionism has forfeited whatever integrity which might have once existed. If they were in any way moved to think about it, they would have a Herculean task ahead of them just to get my position moved back to mid-spectrum neutral.
The YES position, across all facets is the superior winning argument, and in a fair world, that would carry the day. Sadly we do not live in a fair world, we exist in the United Kingdom, and unfettered self determination is not yet within our grasp. There is no risk to us losing the argument. The question to be asked of us is whether we have what it takes to overcome the contrived and artificial barriers which Unionism is happy to strew across our path.
Victory for us means progressive change and renewal. Victory for Unionism, if you can call it victory, means another generation of Scottish lives damned to suffer political stalemate, economic stagnation, and utterly joyless subjugation and underachievement.
@north chiel says: 3 September, 2016 at 12:29 am:
” … Anyway, if and when the campaign commences, can we please get on the front foot from ” the off” and not be continually on the defensive ( trying to defend gers, defend currency union, etc.) How about ” taking the gloves off” and going on the attack ( after all it is the best form of defence … “
Those of us who have been around the independence movement for a very long time can tell you that those gloves have never ever been on, north chiel.
The thing is that until now, when such events as the, almost certain murder of the very high profile SNP member, Willie MacRae, can be suppressed by the Westminster Establishment Propaganda Team, (WEPT), then they are well equipped by the Establishment to suppress any form of gloves off attack by us.
Just pause a moment and read the Rev Stu’s article again. It demonstrates that all attacks, or even adverse news, against the Establishment have indeed been effectively suppressed by the combined forces of the Westminster Establishment.
In my lifetime I can remember certain events that should have seen off the United Kingdom as a union if the Scottish electorate had really known, (and cared), about what was going on.
Here are just a couple of them to make the point: –
The arrest, imprisonment, release without charge and the still oft quoted vilification of former SNP leader Arthur Donaldson:-
In May 1941, during the Second World War, Donaldson’s home was raided by police. An un-named “Informant”, walked into an MI5 office and told desk officer Richard Brooman-White that in the event of a Nazi invasion of Britain Donaldson intended to set up a puppet government akin to that of Vidkun Quisling.
As a result of nothing more than this information, Donaldson was arrested and interned under Defence Regulation 18B, sent first to Kilmarnock Prison and then to Barlinnie Prison in Glasgow. He was held for six weeks.
Ever since there have been claims by the Yoons that the SNP were NAZIs. Here’s an example from The Scotsman from 2005:-
link to scotsman.com
Yet there has been absolutely no evidence whatsoever produced by either MI5, The Scottish Police or anyone else that there was anything more than an un-named persons unsubstantiated claims.
The Willie McRae case is perhaps better known but here again Scottish Police will not release any evidence on the case they say was a suicide but there are vast holes in their story. Yet to date, and after many campaigns to have the case reinvestigated, there is no clarification.
The point I’m making is that until now we have been silenced and not enough Scottish people have been interested enough to force the information into the public domain.
Things are just a little better now with the social medias but still and all – just as example – how many Scots know anything about the suppression of the McCrone Report?
It is all very well taking off the gloves but unless Joe & Josephine McPublic can watch the subsequent bare knuckle bout then we remain on that Back Foot you speak about.
The situation is now that the YES movement are being increasingly listened to and the Westminster Establishment’s propaganda Wing is being slowly discredited and the independence movement is growing day by day. It would be a grave mistake to open things up too quickly.
I’ve seen it far too many times through the years. Too many true claims of Westminster’s most evil actions have been suppressed and dismissed by the Westminster Establishment.
The SNP are right to take the slow patient route as it is working. While the bull at a gate approaches of the past have indeed been portrayed as, “Mad Conspiracy Theory”.
We must not attempt to sort what isn’t broken. There will be a point reached when the few wee falling stones suddenly become an avalanche. That breaking point is very, very close today.
Gary45%:
Thank you Gary,we now have to make the rest of the population
Bullet proof.Peace and Love to you and yours.
It appears that tank commander isn’t too enthralled with Scotland’s ongoing conversation. Two challenges on the legitimacy of the survey and a petition within a day? Wow, thone lassie really doesn’t want to know if the population are content with better togetherland, now does she?
I mean we are living in better togetherland right? Two years ago HMG and better together threw the kitchen sink at their campaign and won their battle to keep the happiest family of nations in history together. So what’s the problem with asking people ‘how’s that working out for you’? Ruthie and her chums in Holyrood are confident they’ve delivered better togetherness aren’t they? They ARE confident that people are contented with Westminster government and their record of administration, the Scotland bill settlement, broad shouldered pooling and sharing, social justice and olive branch diplomacy with nation partners right?
And yet apparently the masters of the Yooniverse have gone into complete apoplectic meltdown that the SNP ‘TWO YEARS’ after that momentous result, are daring to ask folk the question… better togetherland, what do you think so far?
If everything is hunky dory and folk are happy with their decision, then surely answering the survey questions fully and honestly is the best way to affirm that result. But no, the wackier types are even hitting social meeja encouraging folk to refuse to participate altogether. (shrugs)
Or wait now… You don’t suppose this over the top response from the Ruthie ‘we’re definitely not the tory party’ Davidson and those other stalwarts of the Westminster system of government, Kezia ‘My Alternate Manifesto’ Dugdale and Thingy (Wheeee) McFibberpants aren’t confident they’ve delivered better togetherness? Shurely shome mishtake?
Here’s the thing for them. If there is no change in Scotland’s population from two years ago. If there is no appetite for a referendum and if your system of government has delivered on their pledges and assurances to our population’s satisfaction, then you have nothing to worry about.
If however the reverse of all of the above is true, then no ‘rent a quote’ politician and certainly not the media have the right to prevent the public from having their say on the matter. Politicians and the media enjoy the luxury of a 24/7 soap box from which to spout their opinions day in and day out. The public, that would be US, the end user of government legislation only periodically get a say on what we think of your opinions.
So when a party (especially the party of government) has the chutzpah to ask us what we think? THAT IS TO BE ENCOURAGED. It kind of let’s folk feel engaged with their politics don’t you think? Or is that the thing the Yoon politicians really don’t like about all this?
Perhaps they don’t like the idea that folks have any kind of opinion or say in their politics at all. Now that sounds more like the establishment parties we know and love.
O/T
Peep the Beeb – Campaign Update
A big “Thank You” to everyone who has thus far voluteered to distribute stickies for this campaign against BBC propaganda.
We have a fair spread of distributors now the length and breadth of Scotland most of its major cities and towns. However – what happened to Aberdeen? Are there any Wingers in Aberdeen area who would like to ‘spread the word’?
If you’d like to volunteer then send your contact details along with your top TWO label preferences to the email address at the bottom of the page (link below).
Link:
link to imgur.com
Xaracen says:”Never mind the larger gloves, we need to put horseshoes in ’em.”
Clydesdale Horses I would hope.Peace Always.
O/T
A wee thought as part of ‘Peep the Beeb‘ campaign. Any time you may happen to be driving past BBC PQ HQ then – just so they hear us and get our message – PEEP you car’s horn as you drive by. Everytime they hear that PEEP of someone’s car horn, they’ll be getting our message. And, hopefully, getting annoyed.
Macart says:”Perhaps they don’t like the idea that folks have any kind of opinion or say in their politics at all. Now that sounds more like the establishment parties we know and love.”
They would prefer the Three Wise Monkey approach,but those days are gone forever,we have evolved!
Peace Always.
Tried a Search online for tank commander and independence. How many hits? I think she is a secret Scots Patriot. ThankS for keeping things going Ruthie. As for Kezia she just picks winners all the way eg, Lambie, MURPHY, Welsh person who looks like French president Hollande etcetera.
Watch your back Kez bag carrier Baillie is plotting.
@Smallaxe
They are bit on the transparent side aren’t they?
Hope you’re keeping well.
@Macart –
Ruthies been doon the shipyard it’s a wonder she didnae straddle a gun..
link to archive.is
M&S,will axe 500 jobs at its head office in its attempt to
halt a protracted slump in sales.Sounds to myself that this is
a job for Weeeee Willie Rennie,he’s good with slides.
Peace Always.
Excellent analysis once again.
Up against a massive wall of lies, but the message about Scotland never having been a ‘subsidy junkie’ is sinking in. We won’t win over the hard, comfortably off status quo no voters, but there are plenty of people who, when they see what a basket case the so called UK is now due to brexit, will be willing to give independence a go, it can’t be worse they will say.
But how, well, we need to get something through the doors, about where people can find out about the benefits of independence and what the status quo actually means, ie, continuation of UK gov asset stripping their country, privatisation, huge budget cuts, a wasteland, with no human rights to do anything at all about it. So a leaflet, or card to tell people where they can access info and facts, and reject the massive lies coming from media, local, national as in UK, and even further afield.
If the people of Scotland really knew how much they have been shafted by their masters in london, they really would be just a tad angry.
We have a lot of work to do, many young voters who will have turned 16/17. Last time I encountered some young women on the bus, saw my yes badge, from a not too nice area built when Labour were at the helm, and they were asking about the oil. They believed it was ‘not Scotland’s oil’, shocked to hear that it is indeed Scotland’s oil technically. The young do the internet, not so much tv. The rags with their huge lies as headlines are a difficult one, they plant a picture in minds, so need the National to do some really good front pages, I find their front pages much of the time give out mixed messages, like the one yesterday about ‘debt’, just not hard hitting enough.
Btw, Great to see so many brilliant comments, ignore the negative polls and lies from the media.
Not so much a YES campaign, but a campaign for Scottish Independence. No repeats, a new vigorous discussion/converstaion, the unionists can talk among themselves, this is about a change for the better, ditching the destructive, never-ending, tory rule that Scotland clearly rejected.
Oh and saw on the SNP site they have some nice new merchandise, nice EU/Scotland badges, and T-shirts, but they are a bit out of my price range.
Scorates at 1042am,
I didn’t mention a UKOK conspiracy, merely pointing out that The National described Murray as ‘Britain’s’ – so perhaps wind yer neck in a bit. If we cannot rely on a pro Scotland nespaper to report our sports people as Scots, to counteract the propaganda from England, who can we rely on? THAT is the point.
Drip, drip, drip goes the ‘britishification bandwagon. Things like this seem trivial, but it is part of a much bigger cultural war which is going on right now. Companies removing the saltire and replacing it with the butcher’s apron are not just random ‘happenings’.
Perhaps it is you who needs to realise that whilst we should not be paranoid, so too we should not just sit back and accept such tosh. We did that for over three hundred years, and see where it has got us, with entire generations of Scots barely aware of Scottish history or cultural heritage, yet able to list the kings and Queens of England.
So, yes, it is a small thing, and no, I don’t see it as a conspiracy, but many such small things over time do have an impact. That is why so many Scots still erroneously believe Scotland gets subsidies from England.
Anyway, calm doon.
Macart:
We can see right through them.:-)
Thank you for your good wishes.I am improving immensely.
Peace,Love and Transparency.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
3 September, 2016 at 11:34 am
CameronB Brodie at 9.29
That “easily led” and “the half-wit factor” stuff is hopeless campaigning, especially for Scotland’s future. Or, have you ever met an easily led half wit who agreed with you? Assume everyone around you is even smarter and more knowledgeable than you are, when discussing these issues. And they might be too.
Radio Scotland today concerned about the drop in the oil price, GERS, black hole. Oh dear, HOW WILL WE COPE?. Let’s look at another small country and see how they cope with diversifying. Let’s talk to a depressed economist from…..(drum roll)….FINLAND.
Why Finland? well they lost Nokia and had to diversify and it’s a very slow hard process.
I suppose it would have been out of the question to go to Norway. What possible comparison could there be in Norway for a small country dealing with a drop in the oil price?
Croompenstein says:
3 September, 2016 at 12:10 pm
@Macart –
“Ruthies been doon the shipyard it’s a wonder she didnae straddle a gun..”
She didnae need that hard hat, her Brass neck would have sufficed.
Peace Always.
@Croompenstein
Aye, she likes playing dress up and having the photo op, but doing the whole serious bit of politics… not so much. Mind you she is a branch manager and so her remit from head office is mainly to act as a glorified press officer. She’ll fly flags, ride tanks and the odd buffalo, be presentable for cameras in a combative and cheery kinda way. That sorta thing. Answering for the actions of her confederates in central government is above her pay grade apparently.
Maybe some day and if she’s a good wee branch manager, she’ll get parachuted into a proper seat somewhere more suited to her unquestioned talents.
That was Good Morning Scotland. Then on to Shereen. (I know.)
Nicola’s “conversation”. YAWN. Nobody’s interested. No idea how this will work. But good old Ruth says it’s illegal. Let’s move on.
Exciting TV royal sitcom though, “Victoria”. Was it good to cast a young actress from “Downton”? Yes.
What about the BBC’s rerun of old sitcoms such as “Porridge” and “Are You Being Served”? Mixed reaction.
The problem is that their cultural references are all English. These presenters have no capacity to think as Scottish presenters.
“Scotland went out of fashion in 2014”, said Alan Clements.
The problem is that their cultural references are all English. These presenters have no capacity to think as Scottish presenters.
Twas ever thus, UKOK style. The Saturday Guardian today for example is pretty spectacular, covering a quite staggering level and focus of world and domestic news, politics, current affairs, huge and vast societal and science, economics and cultural issues, all beautifully written and photographed, even some biting satire too and you can see where this is going right…
Absolutely and as usual, fuck all about their Scotland region, rancid The Graun style:D
Robert Peffers (12.29)
While agreeing with your advocacy of a generally cautious approach, what so many of us find so maddening is the reluctance of the SNP government to moderately counter so much of the misinformation from the establishment. For instance, if they felt that they had to issue the GERS statistics, why did they not accompany them with an analysis of the limitations of such figures – the UK civil source of much of the info, the omissions from the calculation of Scots revenue, etc? The broadcast interviews given by SNP ministers are frequently anodyne and couched in ‘parliamentary speak’ which flies over the heads of the ordinary listener. Time is too short for pussyfooting since every day in this wretched union is dragging Scotland further down.
Poll showing 3 things. Labour miserably low, Yes/No on a par, and ….. a chunk of NOs who voted Remain are now YES but YESs who voted Leave are now saying NO.
People are sounding disappointed. I don’t agree. I think it is potentially good.
The poll was being asked in a post Brexit situation and in the context of the EU. I suspect that Yes/Leave people have the most recent vote most clearly in their minds. I just can’t believe many previously YES people will see WM as a lesser threat than the EU. When faced with IndyRef2 I would expect them to vote Yes again. Also, they can be more easily converted back to YES than a true NO!
The significant group are the NO to YES converts.
I think on balance we have seen an underlying shift to YES.
A poll which has little mention of the EU or Brexit and goes straight to a ‘should Scotland be an independent country?’ question, would IMO get a higher YES result.
What it does perhaps show is that IndyRef2 should be about WM’s actions and broken promises rather than explicitly about Brexit. If IndyRef2 is centred around the EU, we may have more difficulty getting YES/Leave people on board again.
Based on a skirmish with Labour slacker, Tom Harris, over this last hour, here’s an essay about opinion that’s just my opinion: link to wp.me
heedtracker says:
3 September, 2016 at 12:20 pm
Dave McEwan Hill says:
3 September, 2016 at 11:34 am
CameronB Brodie at 9.29
“That “easily led” and “the half-wit factor” stuff is hopeless campaigning, especially for Scotland’s future. Or, have you ever met an easily led half wit who agreed with you? Assume everyone around you is even smarter and more knowledgeable than you are, when discussing these issues. And they might be too.”
If you compare yourself with others,you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons
than yourself.Desiderata.
Peace Always.
I have also said this to people for many years that Scotland suffers from Stockolm Syndrome it is the only way to explain the madness that Scotland is the only country in the world to discover oil and become poorer for it.
To make matters worse like good little slaves, Scottish people actually think they are better off underneath this regime of torture.
Absolutely shockingly mental.
Macart @ 11:42
Unionists don’t get it. The 2014 Referendum wasn’t a football match which saw their name engraved on the trophy for all time, it was meant to be a constructive and illuminating review of Scotland’s constitutional place in the Union, culminating in a vote to decide whether Scotland should remain in the Union or leave it. It was a chance to renew our vows or part company. We did neither.
We all know what happened. Constructive debate was sidelined by an endless diet of fabricated scare stories, skewed panel debates, contrived agendas, manipulated narrative, and shameless propaganda. All it delivered was a Pyrric victory for the Union, which did nothing, nothing whatsoever, to resolve those constitutional issues silenced by the media. It wasn’t even the Union that triumphed, it was the monopoly the Union possessed over broadcast media. It wasn’t even a Scottish media, but one bought and sold to spin the Union’s myths. Without that, you had nothing. You are nothing.
They turned an important introspective debate into a complete waste of time for all concerned. The Union didn’t emerge any stronger from the process, indeed it’s integrity was shot to pieces, and here we are, barely two years later, on the threshold of trying it all again. Yet again, “your” media is making all the running.
It’s not complicated Unionists; if you damage the goods, you destroy their value, and the 2014 referendum was damaged beyond repair. If you are sincere in wanting the issue of Scotland’s sovereignty confirmed and ratified, “settled for a generation” as you so often put it, then stop throttling the arguments and trying to manipulate the agenda. Engage full square with the debate which has to happen, and do something unthinkable; win it.
Right now, you look like a wide-boy spiv who has to cheat and chisel honest folks just to make a living. You are running from a fight that you know you cannot win. You are the rear guard of dying empire which suffered upon us all a colourless period in the noble history of Scotland. If I’m wrong, tell me where.
@Smallaxe says: 3 September, 2016 at 8:32 am:
“Robert Louis says:I do believe the unionists are feart.
I agree Robert …”
I’ve been telling you that since I began to post to Wings, Smallaxe, and I’ve taken quite a bit of flack from certain Wingers for my pains.
Historically the very first Unionists were the Romans who attempted to unify all the tribes of Britain. They failed to do so and it ultimately resulted in them building first the Gask Road and an earth wall on the Gask Ridge in what is now Scotland followed by The Antonine Wall and then Hadrian’s Wall in what became North England. These are claimed as fear of those from their northern borders.
Between what is now England and Wales there is Offa’s Dyke.
There were constant battles between the South Britain establishments and both North and West Britain. When the Romans left they were replaced by the Anglo-Saxon Germanic tribes as the London elite rulers and they too were frightened by the North and western Britons.
London elite’s power has always feared being taken over by the original Britons. The Treaty of Union was a political move to quell what they saw as the Scottish threat. The entire history of Britain is a tale of the London Establishments through the years being frightened of the threat to themselves by what they have called, “The Celtic Fringe”.
They have always feared being overtaken by that, “Celtic Fringe”. The Republic of Ireland is the only part yet free of The London Establishment and I fear the Welsh have been taken out of the equation by English immigration and interbreeding with the true Welsh peoples.
So there you go, Smallaxe, the entire known history of Britain is a tale of the south west corner of Britain being terrified of being squeezed out by the descendants of the aboriginal Britons.
BTW: That Celtic tag is not actually true. There was no actual Celtic invasion of Britain. The Celts did not actually invade. The whole thing was a conversion of the British to Celtic culture and language.
The Celtic, “Invaders”, were actually Celtic Holy Men who were mainly celibate and they converted the Britons and neither conquered nor killed them off.
Think on such places as the holy islands of Iona, Lindisfarne and the several Holy Islands that are all associated with those early Christian saints who did not interbreed, conquer or massacre. The converted the people to Celtic culture and Christianity.
Unionists and MSM need a numeracy lesson. They keep droning on that only 18% of no voters now favour Indy cos of EU result. Typical them – trying to paint the complete opposite picture. When you do the sums that equates to 55% arenow yes supporters. And this is BEFORE campaigning. We can do this.
‘Tories are demanding an urgent investigation be carried out into whether the SNP’s new independence initiative breaks election laws.’
I would have thought ‘the Professor’ would know if it does or doesn’t break election laws but then their nutty professor believes Scotland is a one party state!
Perhaps what did break election laws was for Tory Ruth to masquerade as ‘not a Tory’ and also to promise the voters that there would be no 2nd IndyRef.
Breeks says:
Another excellent and telling post my friend.
and silence was their loud reply,
they would rather hide behind their lie
But we will stand foursquare with truth
and smite the the tales of Kezi and Ruth
You are not wrong.Peace,Love and Truth.
Ruth Davidson goes in to see her GP, riding a buffalo.
GP: Okay, what seems to be the problem?
BUFFALO: I’m not quite sure. Started off as a spot…
Poldark or Victoria? Which are you? (Shereen).
Flour power:
link to archive.is
PS:
Six kings – Malcolm III, Duncan II, Edgar, Alexander I, David I and Malcolm IV – are buried there, as well as two queens – Margaret and Sybilla. It is also the final resting place of three Scots princes – Edward, Ethelrade and Edmund.
Never knew about them being there only Robert the Bruce.
link to archive.is
Robert Peffers:
Sir, I am humbled by your extensive knowledge of our heritage,oh
for a teacher such as your good self when I was but a lad in
school,our children today would be much enlightened and armoured against the slings and arrows and outrageous lie’s
that were foisted upon myself and my peers.
I am certain that I speak not only for myself but for many others on these pages when I say thank you for sharing your
extensive knowledge with us,saving us from taking shallow
draughts and making us drink deeply from that pierian spring.
I wish you Peace,Love and Good health
Ruby @ 1.35 pm
The Electoral Commission has said the SNP’s publication does not break the law and they will be writing to the Tories to tell them so.
call me dave:
Folic acid I do take
But not for any baby’s sake
My blood is sick and so am I
If I do not take it
I may die
But now it’s in my morning toast
So to my doctor I can boast
I do not need your little pills
My morning toast cures all my ills
Peace,Love and Pan bread.
@Breeks 1.16
I agree, they don’t see that their argument, ‘HOW’ they conducted their defence of the union is the very thing that has undermined the political union.
Their entire strategy and demeanour is based upon fear and hatred, upon manipulation and misdirection. Their problem is that once you see the nature of a thing for what it is, you cannot then unsee.
Re: 60% sustained in polls
pay no attention to that 60% figure –
bearing in mind numbers may be disappointing on the Day – due to all sorts of contingent factors ranging from wind and rain, flu epidemic, to local arrangements for transport to the polling station etc
It’s like taking an exam – you can aim at a pass/fail level and you will probably fail or you can aim at 1st class honours (over 90%). You might not get them but you will pass and pass well.
same with indyref2 – the 60% figure is there to lull us into a feeling of resignation or fatality.
Indy Scotland should be aiming at over 90%
All theoretical bases need to be covered as well as all practical bases – canvassing, info dissemination, meetings, shops,social media, billboards, stickers, . . . . whatever it takes to pass this exam.
We won’t reach over 90% on the Day but we will get over the line
Which is what counts
I thought it was the child catcher.
Vambomarbeleye says:
3 September, 2016 at 3:41 pm
“I thought it was the child catcher.”
He most probably is.
Peace Always.
Y’know the greatest irony in all of this constitutional debate?
The hard line unionist voters right across the board are amongst the worst victims.
To Monkton above, the Scottish population are subsidy junkies and I don’t recall him drawing distinctions between unionists or independence supporters. Ditto to the likes of Lamont, if you’ll recall our electorate were a sumthin’ fer nuthin’ society. Davidson? We simply don’t contribute enough. Throughout the Scotland bill debates, the government benches were queuing up to shit all over Scotland’s ENTIRE population. Political soundbite land is full of casual and not so casual examples of out and out bile directed at the Scottish benches and the Scottish electorate and rarely with any distinction drawn along electoral lines.
The long and short of it? The system of government and the societal order the unionist voter is so determined to defend simply doesn’t give a shit whether they live or die. The poor souls are only useful when their vote is required to keep those and such as those in position to continue shitting upon them from a great height.
The independence movement who are determined to return power into the hands of the population, ALL of the population (including those who apparently detest their ideals and their very existence), and defend the democratic and human rights of that population are regarded as the enemy.
Honestly? If you didn’t laugh at the situation, you’d run screaming into the nearest nut hoose at the madness of it all. For if that’s not the definition of an insane situation, you’d struggle to find a better example.
Nurse? Pills please.
Growing up in Aberdeen in the 80s, there was no massive amount of wealth for the vast majority of people, but there was no massive loss of industry to lose either, so Aberdeen plodded along regardless, and some of the oil money filtered down to secondary and tertiary sectors.
As a teen and an adult in the 90s, I came into contact with adults more, and some of them were oil-related folk, and most of those were Dutch, American, Norwegian, English and very, very few were Scots (above middle management level).
So it always bothered me to hear those in the Central an Southern areas of Scotland that “Aberdeen was getting all the cash” or words to that effect.
Did you know that while at primary school we were taught/informed that the oil would run out by the 90s?
Misinformation, divide and conquer. Sound familiar?
50% + 1 will not work. I has to be near a 10 point lead to be credible otherwise there would be continuing unrest and non acceptance by the Unionists.
@Ruby
I don’t agree in general with your idea, but that’s good, we should all have different opinions and ideas at times. But this:
“ and before you know it the Labour Party in England would be including a ‘Scotland Out’ referendum in their next manifesto.”
How long are we going to have to wait before UK Labour have even the slightest chance of forming the next UK Government?
4 years? Don’t think so! 9 years? 14 years, 24 years? The rate they’re going it’ll be 2222, and the Starship Enterprise will be boldly going.
“Robert at 1135am” Agree that ” boxing clever” can& does get results Robert. However a little bit of aggression now& again sometimes ” catches the judges eye” ( Joe& Josephine Macpublic?).Sometimes it appears to be trying to win with one hand tied behind your back ( the establishment propagandists you mention make it the perceived ” uneven contest” .)
Ps , I do recall the Willie Macrae ” accident” Robert , so just to let you know that I am ” not such a young gun !”
yesindyref2 says:
3 September, 2016 at 5:34 pm
@Ruby
I don’t agree in general with your idea,
Ruby replies
Ah there’s a surprise!
Not someone who likes to think outside the box then?
This is another really good example of why Wings is so valuable. Information like this is going to be invaluable when chapping doors during indyref2.
Which makes.. £38,506,113,000.00
Now return to from whenst you came..
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Capice?