Scottish independence referendum, plus jokes.

Wings Over Scotland


It’s a trap!

Posted on November 01, 2013 by

Blair McDougall, director of “Better Together”, Dundee University, 30 October 2013:

“UK ministers are not going to fall into the trap of acting against Scotland until Scotland decides to leave the United Kingdom”

blairsdu

You heard it straight from the horse’s – well, let’s be kind and say “mouth”, folks.

When Blair McDougall uncharacteristically spoke the truth at the debate between the Yes and No campaign chiefs in Dundee this week, the audience reacted with a mixture of gasps of shock and laughter. But the telling thing was that after the uproar died down, the No man didn’t backtrack or correct himself or acknowledge any gaffe or unfortunate choice of words.

After a good few seconds of thinking time, his next line was this:

“It’s a trap that they’re very wise not to fall into.”

He didn’t mis-speak. He said what he meant. The leader of the campaign to keep Scotland in the UK quite explicitly and deliberately told us that what UK ministers say now and what they’ll do after the referendum are two different things. It’s probably worth keeping that in mind.

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  1. 06 11 13 09:21

    The reasons why | laidbackviews

  2. 16 11 13 10:33

    Unionism and the English Language «

104 to “It’s a trap!”

  1. When I heard this comment I also thought it has a natural companion in this one…
    http://bellacaledonia.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/800205935.jpg

  2. Horacesaysyes says:

    He also claimed that Barnet will be around for ‘another 30-40 years’, despite being in no position to offer that assurance.

  3. Doug Daniel says:

    The mind boggles. If they’re not “acting against Scotland” already, then I’d hate to see what that entails. Scrapping the Barnett formula is the most obvious one, but I’m sure Tory idiots in the Home Counties can think up plenty of other wheezes to teach us rebellious Scots a long-overdue lesson for trying to get above our station.

  4. DougtheDug says:

    Tthe British Establishment will never allow Scotland to call another independence referendum again if Scotland votes No. It’s just too risky.
     
    It will either make sure it can’t elect a government which can call a referendum by changing the way the voting system works in Holyrood or by making the calling of any referendum dependent on a set majority of something like say 60% of the vote in Westminster. 
     
    I’ve got to hand it to Blair McDougall for telling the truth and sticking to it.

  5. Stuart Black says:

    More proof, if any more is needed, of the ‘divorcing an abusive partner’ analogy.
     
    Though I am somewhat bemused that a campaign leader could say something as crass and stupid.

  6. Simon says:

    Because acting against Scotland’s interests is natural and normal for UK government ministers?

  7. Keef says:

    When he says ‘UK’ ministers I take it he also means Scottish Labour/Lib/Con parties as well. The Scottish BT ministers have obviously not received that memo yet. 

  8. Simon says:

    Anyway what if there’s a No vote? Or is he assuming a Yes vote is in the bag?

  9. HandandShrimp says:

    The No camp know perfectly well that No doesn’t mean the status quo. That No will result in all sorts of attempts to make sure there is no repeat of this referendum. They will look to clip Holyrood’s wings, and the more malign will seek to impoverish us to ensure the too poor message is driven home.
     
    Many Tories and a number of Labour MPs want to see Barnett removed. Ken Livingstone frequently disparaged the funding arrangements for Scotland. No is not going to end well. Yes will no doubt have them spitting tacks too which is no doubt what Blair was trying to suggest. That Yes would see us on the naughty step and Westminster would get nasty. This is a surprise?  

  10. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    There is a poster there, McD”s face, his words below and in a larger bolder typeface the meaning of it.

  11. The Man in the Jar says:

    “They say one thing in private and another thing in public” Where have I heard that before?
     
    Alternatively as Alex Salmond put it at FMQs “They say one thing in public and another thing in public” 

  12. Ivan McKee says:

    Spending per head in Scotland is £1200 per year more than the UK average (more than paid for by the fact that revenue per head in Scotland is £1700 more than the UK average).
     
    Anyone who thinks that the UK government will continue to spend more per head in Scotland than they do in the rest of the UK after a No vote is either seriously delusional or has a vested interest in the current set-up.
     
    There’s isn’t a box on offer marked ‘Keep the £1200 please’
    The only 2 boxes on offer are ‘Let me have the £1700′ or ‘Lose the £1200′.
     
    By the way, does anyone know if there were any votes taken at this debate – either before of after ?

  13. Cassandra Lee says:

    I thnk this is one of those unfortunate statements that can be taken two ways:
     
    The first way I read this was that UK ministers would not be stupid enough to act against Scotland’s interests now to the extent that the Scots were forced to vote Yes – which I think is probably what he meant, although of course it’s not true.
     
    The second way I read this is that they won’t act against Scotland’s interests until after we vote Yes.

  14. Robert Kerr says:

    You are correct BtP.
     
    Time to stock up on A4 self adhesive sheets. We can print them out at home and stick to bus shelters etc. 
    Illegal no doubt. 

  15. MajorBloodnok says:

    I looked at the photo and thought “well there’s Tweedle Dum(b), Tweedle Dee and Blair Jenkins”.

  16. Gordon Smith says:

    I thought I heard him say “until Scotlends decides to Stay in the Union” : even more of a condemation – can you check?

  17. G. Campbell says:

    Does Alistair Darling agree with Blair that the UK Government is treating Scotland with kid gloves, and if he does, will he be campaigning for another ConDem coalition?

  18. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I would like to see what happened when the whole thing was over – I’ll offer Evens that when Taylor got up, that chair went with him.

  19. Keef says:

    No disrespect to Dundee Uni. but as I watched this debate I could not help thinking - this is a debate between the heads of the YES and No campaigns and it’s hosted at a university campus. Would this be even remotely contemplated if it was an English campaign. Surely this sort of debate demands prime time TV coverage on all Scottish channels.
     
    No wonder there are so many don’t knows! How are they so supposed to get this information?
    That lecture theatre could probably hold 200 people max. This is pretty shambolic. Why is there no outrage and a demand for prime time coverage of the two most senior heads of this campaign? Am I missing something?

  20. Ian Brotherhood says:

    …if they have managed to get him out of the chair or not, Brian Taylor’s All-Star Roadshow is in Gleneagles Hotel at lunchtime…Institute of Directors or somesuch gathering…

  21. benarmine says:

    Ivan, there was no vote, but it was pretty clear there was a big majority for Yes I think. I should say too that Brian Taylor was very fair throughout, asking for clarification when necessary where statements were in doubt.

  22. Famous15 says:

    I would suggest that when Scotland votes YES that rUK ministers would with alacrity and self interest be fawning all over us and reassuring us that they were always best friends. Ireland even without Scotland’s resources exemplifies that they would go beyond the norms of international relations to do the exact opposite of this foolish threat . It is called enlightened self interest!

  23. G. Campbell says:

    Uncomfortable viewing. Brian Taylor in that chair reminds me of the vice scene in Casino.

  24. Ghengis says:

    They already fell into that trap decades ago. They’ve been acting against Scotland all this time anyway.

    >McCrone report

    >Thatcher concentrating wealth and power in London while destroying our industry

    >Number 10 minutes on devolution still secret

    >Tony and Gordon’s annexation of eight major oil fields

    >Fixing the Holyrood voting system to try to prevent a Scottish party gaining a majority

    >No oil fund!

    >Our money spent on infrastructure in England with no Barnett consequential

    >Westminster dining out on our money “Spending money on our behalf”

    >Their Debts! on to our account

    >A culture of insults piled on Scotland to demoralise the people

    >Fighting tooth and nail to deny Democracy and self determination

  25. benarmine says:

    Brian Taylor is definitely biased in favour of Dundee United though which is worse than being a Unionist of course.

  26. Brotyboy says:

    Keef says
    No disrespect to Dundee Uni. but as I watched this debate I could not help thinking - this is a debate between the heads of the YES and No campaigns and it’s hosted at a university campus. Would this be even remotely contemplated if it was an English campaign. Surely this sort of debate demands prime time TV coverage on all Scottish channels.

    No wonder there are so many don’t knows! How are they so supposed to get this information?That lecture theatre could probably hold 200 people max. This is pretty shambolic. Why is there no outrage and a demand for prime time coverage of the two most senior heads of this campaign? Am I missing something?

    Sorry, Keef, but this was an even organised by Dundee University as part of their Five Million Questions series, on their own initiative, and the hall held 400.  Agreed that there should be other, televised debates, but this cannot be laid at the door of Dundee Uni.

  27. seoc says:

    Welsh, Cornish people and folk from Northern England would be wise to take careful note of these remarks, if they ever wish to earn their liberation from the desperate Unionist tyrants.

  28. Doug says:

    Seems like the head of Unite would be warm to the prospect of Scottish independence.
    http://archive.is/YcT3Z
     

  29. Les Wilson says:

    If there is a no, they will slowly denigrate Holyrood to a puppet show with no powers, they WILL remove the Barnet formula as that where Westminster MP’s ( including SLAB ) are leaning towards. Little hope of any future referendum.

    There will be NO extra powers but much less and they will be reduced, bit by bit, in their usual sneaky back door way. There is nothing for Scotland in a NO, we must push that with the voters.

    Things will get markedly worse with the eventual closing of Holyrood altogether as it remains a threat to Westminsters rule and always will be as long as it exists.

    They NEED us, they need our resources and our potential, to enhance themselves in so many ways. All they are doing now should point to that. They cheat us constantly, they will not stop, that is their need. They are like junkies needing Scotland as a fix.

    Let us put them on methadone !

  30. Arabs for Independence says:

    Brian Taylor is definitely biased in favour of Dundee United though which is worse than being a Unionist of course.
    Hey – that’s no funny. 

  31. Keef says:

    Brotyboy
    I never for a minute laid any blame at the door of Dundee Uni. What I’m saying is this sort of debate should have happened a long time ago on TV.
    It’s a shambles that the population has to scramble for clips on you tube to hear the arguments from both sides.
    Good on Dundee Uni. for being in the vanguard, but shame on the media for not bringing this to the general population. Many people are too poor or have no internet access and are unable to see this.
     
    This sort of debate should demand nationwide coverage.
     
    Its a frikkin outrage.

  32. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Personally, I am quite cool about these local debates at this stage in the referendum roll out.
    If we had televised debates, this far from the referendum, how many of the great Scottish public would watch it and how many of them would remember it.

    Better to leave the big debates until very close to the date of the referendum when a rolling thunder effect will, hopefully, be taking place.

    OK, AS against DC tomorrow would be an exception to what I said above but that would only be because AS would wipe the floor with DC and everybody would remember that.

    Those of us alive at Pres Kennedy’s assassination remember where we were when it was announced. AS against DC would that sort of “where were you?” moment,

  33. Doug Daniel says:

    Keef – the main reason it was at Dundee Uni is because the Five Million Questions programme is funded by the university, so it’s their “baby”, if you like. So I suspect that if an English university had some sort of programme of events, they too would be holding them at the university (if nothing else, it’s a damn sight cheaper to hold them in your own campus, rather than trying to hire somewhere out!)
     
    When Blair Jenkins was speaking at Aberdeen Uni, he said he’s seen some of the plans that the broadcasters have for referendum coverage during the summer, and he was very pleased with it. Things will begin to ramp up, but we’re still 11 months out, with the White Paper not even out yet. I wouldn’t expect anything truly major on the TV until 2014, not least because schedules will soon be filling up with Christmas and Hogmanay stuff.
     
    I personally rather like the way the universities are currently the main platforms for these sort of events going on – the infamous Hosie vs Robertson debate at Abertay, the recent Blair Jenkins event at Aberdeen Uni (with more on the way), the Five Million Questions debates at Dundee, and of course the mock referendum at Glasgow. It’s a nice reminder of what universities are there for – increasing public knowledge – rather than simply churning out people trained to do a specific job.

  34. Albalha says:

    @Arabs for Independence
    Eh it is

  35. Horacesaysyes says:

    Bugger (the Panda) says: AS against DC tomorrow would be an exception to what I said above but that would only be because AS would wipe the floor with DC and everybody would remember that.
    Those of us alive at Pres Kennedy’s assassination remember where we were when it was announced. AS against DC would that sort of “where were you?” moment,
     
    And that’s exactly the reason why McDougal was so adamant that it isn’t going to happen – even going as far as agreeing a £100 charity bet with Blair J that it won’t.

  36. Iain says:

    @Albalha
    ‘And the Courier’s take on it, ‘The which Blair project’, rather good headline I’d say.’
     
    Interestingly the Courier cuts Blair M’s statement to give a rather different impression.

    ‘Mr McDougall said was because: “The UK nations are not going to fall into the trap of acting against Scotland.”’

  37. Keef says:

    And the sooner we get this on nationwide TV the more momentum we create for the YES vote. Remember, we are currently lagging in the polls and once a YES voter is convinced they tend to stay YES which creates further momentum.
     
    I think the longer we keep these sort of common sense facts that come out in debates away from the general population the more it suits the No campaign.

  38. liz says:

    All of us commited Yes folk know there will be no status quo in the event of a No.
     
    JoLa has made it quite plain that they SLAB lot want a transfer of powers to the cooncils- this is so her and her hubby can do all there wheeling and dealing and back-stabbing behind closed doors.
    If she’s willing to act like that in public can you image her with no-one watching.
     
    What worries me is that for reasons which are beyond me, people still back SLAB – I know they weren’t expected to lose Dunfermline but just how much evidence is needed?
     
    Apparently the Cara lassie struggled with repeating her words on entering
    Holyrood.

  39. Albalha says:

    @Iain
    Yes, the first comment makes that point.

  40. liz says:

    Sorry there were a few errors in my post but I couldn’t edit them

  41. crisiscult says:

    Arabs for independence – as a fellow Arab I’ll back you up, though having Taylor as a fan does make me consider changing my team :-/

    By the way, I posted this on another thread but as we’re talking about debates at Uni …
     
    EUROPEAN MOVEMENT / GLASGOW UNIVERSITY EUROPEAN SOCIETY QUESTION TIME DEBATE GLASGOW UNIVERSITY UNION TUESDAY 5TH NOVEMBER 2013 7PM to 9PM
     
    Linda Fabiani MSP – Former Minister for Europe and External Affairs in the Scottish Government Alf Young – economic and political journalist and commentator Petros Fassoulas – Chairman of European Movement UK Dr Ian Duncan – MEP Candidate ( Scottish Conservatives) Emilie Steinmark – Chair, Glasgow University European Society The event will be chaired by the well known academic and commentator Prof. John Curtice of Strathclyde University Doors open at 6.30pm. The event is free to attend and there will be a wine reception afterwards.

  42. Andrew Morton says:

    This is the sort of story which a good news journalist with a degree and thirty years of experience would jump all over and feature in banner headlines on the front page of, for example, the Herald.
     
    i look foward with keen anticipation to tomorrow’s edition.

  43. Albalha says:

    @liz
    Interesting point about C Hilton, you know if I weren’t a fully paid up YES voter no matter what, it’s a lot of the people in the Labour ranks at Holyrood that would give me pause for thought.

  44. chalks says:

    So he is saying rUK will not co-operate nor help an indy Scotland.
    Fine by me.  Tell the people of Scotland that 300 years of ‘equal’ Union means nothing to them, let’s see what happens.

  45. MochaChoca says:

    So basically he’s saying that UK ministers WANT to act against Scotland NOW, but are having to resist the temptation until after the referendum, rather than ‘fall into the trap’?

  46. Albalha says:

    @crisiscult
    Wine and fireworks, perhaps.

  47. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    The NO campaign is starting to fall to pieces.

    What about Unite’s chiefs comments in The Record today. Praising AS’s role in saving Grangemouth. Positive noises about Scottish Independence, the SNP. Bearing in mind Unite sponsor various Labour politicians including the genius Johann, I couldn’t think of a bigger kick in the teeth, especially after her train crash in FMQs yesterday.

    Wasn’t he effectively saying taxi for Johann!

  48. Andrew Morton says:

    I wonder if Cara Hilton will survive the next Holyrood election?

  49. iain taylor (not that one) says:

    Don’t be so unkind to Brian. As a fellow Taylor Clan member, I must take umbrage.
    He’s perfect… a perfect sphere.

  50. Melissa Murray says:

    I feel this is the moral equivalent of some mad King locking his wife in a tower for daring to try to leave him.

  51. James Morton says:

    Its is very revealing. Basically that the Union has for the past 300yrs kept the English at bay and the instant it ends, then the Auld Enemy is going to be knocking on our doors once again. Its the most staggering admission from a man who fronts a campaign that has not yet been able to articulate a positive reason for the Union to continue. 
    Britishness you see is nothing more than defence against a country that desires nothing more than to do you harm. As long as your British, they’ll think you’re English and that’s OK…isn’t it?
    I always knew once the scares started, there was nowhere else to go but further down a dark and twisted road, and this is were its led bettertogether. Telling the Scots that the minute they’re independent then it’s the Hard wooing all over again.
    Any wonder these clowns are running scared from debates and holding meetings in secret.

  52. Hetty says:

    This is a clear threat and most likely aimed at the ‘no’ people so they don’t start to dither, and especially the ‘don’t knows’ who might run scared that they can be sure of a thrashing from the bully boys in westminster if they join the ‘YES’ side. To the people in favour of Independence this confirms why we absolutely must secure Independence for Scotland, but it could go either way for the others, those who are vulnerable to the scare tactics used by ‘better together’ will either think, oh I better vote ‘no’, or they will think, ‘how dare they make threats against my country!’.
    It’s a disgraceful statement to make against Scotland and really, if it was a bullying issue in a school or workplace would be dealt with severely. as it should be here.

  53. Training Day says:

    @MochaChoca
     
    Yup, that’s it in a nutshell.  They’d love to act against Scotland now, but will wait until the eventuality where we’re foolish enough to vote No, then act against us.  And best of all, they can then legitimately say that we have no grounds for complaint, because we’ll have voted to empower them to do whatever they please to Scotland.
     
    O/T Heard James Naughtie on GMS this morning.  He informed us that he was broadcasting on ‘Radio Scotland’.  Easy mastery of his brief there.  But then he told us that ‘our two largest cities’ would be connected by HS2.  Whoops, wee slip back into Radio 4 mode there.  Anyway, this kinda demonstrates the idea that Naughtie is not back up here to cover the referendum as such, but rather to ‘normalise’ the Westminster/UK context in Scotland by conducting cosy chats with his MP pals who’re used to dealing with ‘Jim’.  To punt a Londoncentric agenda via Radio Scotland and create a context where ‘separatism’ is seen as ever less mainstream.
     
    Just a thought.

  54. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Waiting for Brian’s show to start, the MacAuley show is nearing the end.
     
    Honestly, this is the worst radio I’ve ever heard. He’s got two incomprehensible female guests who sound as if they’ve overdosed on Irn Bru and Haribos. Astonishingly bad stuff. They’re not even pretending to try any more - Pacific Quay is just somewhere for these people to meet, and we pay for it.
     
    Sickening.

  55. Alastair says:

    Blair MacDougalls’ final word on the issue of Salmond and Cameron debating just prior to betting £100 was “it will never happen”

    The audience were not happy with this assertion at all, but in accepting the bet Blair Jenkins said he believed Cameron will step up but not till much nearer the vote. He said that were Cameron to maintain his stance and then lose the vote he would go down in history as the P.M. who lost Scotland without a fight, certain political suicide.

    I think if that’s how it pans out, it will be as a result of obvious all-out panic on the union side, not something that is likely to inspire confidence. Cameron has made a big mistake and he probably knows it, how he backtracks from his current position wont likely be very dignified either.

    It was a decent debate though and heavily over-subscribed, indicating a growing interest in the issue, and as was mentioned further back the audience appeared to be overwhelmingly in favour of YES despite there being no votes. It fair cheered me up.

  56. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    O/T
    It’s a first! Lamont garrotted by Tom Gordon in today’s Herald, even though I think we’ve lost the last couple of lines of his report. Her teas oot as they say in Glasgow. Iain Gray again anyone?

  57. Marker Post says:

    Oh my God. He really did say too, in his opening remarks, about funding for Dundee University, “They invest in us, and we provide cures and treatments for the UK NHS”.
     
    They? They?? “They” invest in “us”???
     
    Why the hell can’t we invest in ourselves, is what I would have shouted if I had been there…

  58. The Rough Bounds says:

    I heard a wee bit on Radio 2 the other day about Arts funding in England. It appears that the English aren’t all that happy that Arts funding in London is around £70 per person but in the rest of England it’s around only £4 per head.
    London is a major problem for everyone.

  59. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The “£1200 a year extra per head for Scotland” is also an illusion. The pot this is taken from represents only about 65% of public spending. Scotland’s “identified public spending” includes all those areas in which Scotland’s geography means that public spending per head is costly but takes no account of expenditure on “national” projects which are set against a notional national expenditure the vast majority of which is spent down south. Scotland gets less than half its share of national procurement which is the real story.

  60. Ken Johnston says:

    Yep. Arts London V the rest of England, 14:1 ratio.

  61. Brian Mark says:

    Ti’s the season to be jolly and now for the latest pantomime production of The Wizard of Oz The Cowardly Lion (Dave Posh Boy Cameron) The straw Man (Blair MacDougall) in search of a brain and Wee Jo Lo as the Tin Man, feckin useless and rusting away to nothing. COMING SOON TO A UNIONIST HALL OVER THE RAINBOW SOON
     

  62. Brian Mark says:

    Ti’s the season to be jolly and now for the latest pantomime production of The Wizard of Oz starring as the The Cowardly Lion (Dave Posh Boy Cameron) The Straw Man (Blair MacDougall) in search of a brain and Wee Jo Lo as the Tin Man, feckin useless and rusting away to nothing. COMING SOON TO A UNIONIST HALL OVER THE RAINBOW SOON

  63. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The “£1200 a year extra per head for Scotland” is also an illusion. The pot this is taken from represents only about 65% of public spending. Scotland’s “identified public spending” includes all those areas in which Scotland’s geography means that public spending per head is costly but takes no account of expenditure on “national” projects which are set against a notional national expenditure the vast majority of which is spent down south. Scotland gets less than half its share of national procurement which is the real story.”

    Could use some sources for that.

  64. seoc says:

    @ Les Wilson
    I would absolutely agree with your assessment of our southern neighbours.
    They are utterly untrustworthy and are either at your feet or your throat!

  65. Beastie says:

    It’s a great pity I am at work (on my lunch, not skiving, thanks… although that has been known :)) and cannot access social media on the grounds that this really needs wide sharing on facebook and twitter, and any other cutting edge social media sites that this old luddite is not fully aware of.

    Because, but not only because, if that level of foot in mouth stupidity ever emanated from the mouth of the First Minister, or Blair Jenkins, or anyone else involved with the SNP or the Yes Scotland campaign it would be unavoidable on media sites, newspapers and television for days.

    We don’t have access to those, generally, so we must do what we can where we can do it. Notwithstanding Wings exposure on Scotland Tonight, which was very, very amusing.

  66. crisiscult says:

    sorry, off topic. Question for Rev. I was looking for some Scotland branded stuff and found this website’s brand available through cafepress e.g. http://www.cafepress.co.uk/mf/76455517/2013-logo_mugs?productId=788230689
     
    Do they have permission? Is that your copyright? I was going to order something through cafepress till I saw lots of bad reviews about them. 

  67. Taranaich says:

    Watching that, I couldn’t help but be reminded of this:
     

  68. Beastie says:

    A wee conversation I had yesterday that you might like to know, since it appears a couple of people in this thread are falling onto the old ‘English are untrustworthy etc’ line of thinking.

    I was obliged, in my work, to phone a company in Dewsbury which supplies kitchen units to the cooncil, for whom I work at the moment, and I spoke to a lass with a very broad Midlands accent called Yvonne.

    We kept chatting away about the weather and various odds and ends as I waited for her email to come through with copies of the invoices I’d asked for, and the conversation skimmed across the top of independence. I was surprised, as being English I know she should have been near completely ignorant of the debate since England just doesn’t get the information generally (you think it’s bad up here? Down there the media just don’t bother about Scotland at all) but exceptionally pleased with her statement about it.

    And I quote; ‘Well, if I was up there I’d probably be voting for independence myself. If you vote yes I might even look into moving up.” When I asked why she would vote yes she said she fully believed Scotland would be better off, the Scottish Government is a more socially aware government than Westminster has ever been, and independence would have the added bonus of almost making completely sure Scotland would never, ever, be ruled by a Tory government.

    Funny old thing. That last one appeals to just about everyone. Can’t think why.

    So when you refer to the English as somehow not to be trusted, just bear in mind people like her exist. And they are not rare.

  69. Big Jock says:

    Yes there are good people everywhere. I suppose thee are even good SLAB members…or is that pushing it LOL.

  70. John grant says:

    It just has to be yes ,failing that goodbye Scotland in my opinion it’s that serious 

  71. Robert Kerr says:

    The West Midlands suffered more than us by Mgt Thatcher’s de-industrialisation.
    The HS2 is an attempt to create a London oriented “plantation” just as in Ulster in the 17th Century.
    Same tricks from the establishment.

  72. chalks says:

    @Beastie More English up here are in favour of indy than against.

  73. crisiscult says:

    worth looking at the comments on Wales’ new powers?  
     
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-24763988

  74. ronnie anderson says:

    Short n sweet BLABBER GUB ( Mac Dougall on the magic mushrooms ) BRAIN ( mines wonky the noo ) MOOTH ENGAGEMENT Ah shit am ah helpin the ither side ( SOS FOLKS ) this fkin brain o mines a liability

  75. The Man in the Jar says:

    @crisiscult
     
    I see that a “Proud Welshman” has popped up already.
     
    Wonder if they are related.

  76. liz says:

    @crisiscult – I made the mistake of looking at the BBC Wales story – what uniformed rubbish there are in the comments.
     
    It’s supposed to be about Wales and most of the comments are complaining about England being used or not having their own government – I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of these comments were from government depts and not individuals.
     
    This is the Britnats stepping in so that Wales doesn’t even think about becoming independent.
     
    There was the usual Proud Scot talking Scotland down with 33 recommends and worse than that some of the picks were disgraceful.

  77. lumilumi says:

    TMITJ @ 3.10pm
     
    I see that a “Proud Welshman” has popped up already.
     
    I’m a Finn but not a “Proud Finn”. I love my country and I take pride in some (but not all) of our achievements. I’m content just to be a Finn, I don’t need to over-emphasize my nationality nor do I feel a Finnish cringe (oh yes, that exists :-D)
     
    The curious thing is that the Scots/Welsh brand of “proudness” always seems to be followed by a “but…”  Whereas “proud Englishman”… It sort of evokes an image of some EDL nutter, doesn’t it?
     
    Maybe ordinary, decent folk in England (the vast majority) could be more proud of their own country if they had independence and close ties with their fellow British (in the geographical and also cultural sense) in other independent British countries?

  78. Stevie says:

    A NO vote will ensure and guarantee the speedy demise of the Barnett formula with a haste that will make the eyes water.

  79. chalks says:

    A no vote should result in the entire dismantling of Scotland as any form of country.  Only that would make people engage.  Throw the football and rugby team out the window as well.
    Vote no to become a region.  62% of the population class themselves as Scot’s, we shouldn’t lose the referendum but by god, if we do, then the Scotsman in the street has every right to have their psuedo country ripped away from them and declared a part of England/Britain.

  80. Ann says:

    Was off line all day yesterday and just catching up with Wings news.
    What did I miss about my new MSP Cara Hilton?

  81. ronnie anderson says:

    Chalk,s  after the beep news piece on Devolved owers for Wales DAILY POLITICS & a little Britisher mentality IAN COLLINS ( broadcaster ) commenting to A NEIL , SCOTLAND  /  WALES are not   COUNTRYS  there more like Big Regional Council s  DAILY POLITICS 12pm Today  could somebody find a LINK and post it on site

  82. lumilumi says:

    @ Ann
     
    She stumbled over the words of her solemn affirmation as an MSP.  Even with a written crib sheet in her hand.
     
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/scotland-24743575

  83. Ann says:

    Oh dear!  Should have had that off by heart.

  84. Alabaman says:

    @Ann,
    It was that wee “woomun” wot gave her that paper/note!.

  85. jim mitchell says:

    Could someone help me out here?  I know the better together crowd try to persuade us all that we are better remaining with the rest of the UK, but given their campaign title, it stands to reason that the rest of the UK will be better off for us remaining with them, so could someone please tell me what reasons they give for this supposition?
    Just why do they think that rUK is better together with us?

  86. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Our Oil, berth for Trident and nuclear bunker for nuclear bombs.

  87. Ken500 says:

    £60Billion in tax revenues is raised in Scotland. (Enough for all Scotland’s needs) Scotland gets £48Billion back, Total taxes raised in the UK £610Billion. The UK gov spends £720Billion, mainly on the rest of the UK. Yet Scotland has to pay £4Billion in debt repayment. Why?

    The propaganda about the HS2 coming to Scotland. The HS2 will make the journey to Scotland longer. People will have to alight and get another train. The rail line from the central belt of Scotland to the North hasn’t even been electrified. It takes hours to get to Aberdeen/Inverness.

    Obnoxious bullly making empty threats.

  88. Kev says:

    Watched the vid, I may be wrong but the highly vocal woman with the English accent constantly trying to talk over Blair Jenkins whilst he tries to answer her questions sounds very similar to the one that employed the same tactics against Linda Fabiani at the Clydebank Trade union debate, im going more on her mannerisms than her voice btw…

  89. lumilumi says:

    Jim Mitchell @ 6.36pm
     
    The UK is “better together” because of Scotland’s oil, which has been used to prop up the UK state and the SE of England for decadeds. I fail to find a reason why Scotland would be better together with rUK. Scotland would be best shot off the fetters of the UK union.
     
    Get off your knees, Scots! Scotland is a rich country. Richer than my small independent country (the Baltic Sea oil still hasn’t materialised…) . All that energy, wind, tide, all that innovation! The only thing holding Scotland back is the stupid union with the reactonary Tory England.

  90. Peter says:

    Blair mcdougall, professional liar and all round cunt.  Why is he given the farage messiah treatment by the media?

  91. Paula Rose says:

    Because Peter, the polls say that Scotland will vote no (snigger)

  92. Adam L says:

    If it makes you feel better, I met him after the debate, and when he asked to borrow a pen I was kind enough to lend him a YesScotland-emblazoned one. True story. Some moments you just can’t buy…

  93. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Stu
    My post at 12.43.
    It should probably have read “Scotland gets much less than it percentage share of Government procurement” much od which is sourced in the south. I do know that we get less than half our proper share of military procurement (despite the aircraft carriers without planes ). You would need some authoity like the Cuthberts to spell out the actualk facts

  94. Franariod says:

    Proves that even the Nos realise that its not a question of can Scotland afford to go it alone but can we afford to stay within the union

  95. Alex Wright says:

    Absolutely brilliant Duncan. The ingenuity and creativity of our crowd are unbelievable. How can we lose? 

  96. Liz Smith says:

    I wonder what is being dripped into the drinking water, to make the public north or south of the border  believe anything the politicians feed us regarding the Yes/No vote?

    Wherever I stand I would not trust any politician as far as I could spit them through a straw and if you say Yes, who would Mr Salmond get his Knighthood from (remember John Prescott saying he would not take a peerage)? Does Mr Salmond just want to be a hero?

    There is a lot of  information hiding undercover all over GB, eg ‘Surprise is the best element in war’.  I’m for the result when we finally know which is truthfully the best result for Scotland and England.

  97. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The scenario so far is simple, Liz. The YES camp put out proposals, fully supported by informed reports and facts and figures.
    The No camp puts out lies
    The Media, which supports NO, treats them both the same.
    Those who are aware of this bias are voting YES.
    Those who are not yet aware of it are in the “don’t know” or NO camp. This is changing. Much of the change is because of the effects of Wings and similar online sites which are getting the truth out to people from whom it was concealed before.
    Some of the lies are becoming quite astounding and are an insult even to the NO supporters.
    We are daily in the area now of the *AFBL according to Derek Bateman
     
    A F***ing Big Lie

  98. Adam L says:

    Liz Smith – I have the strangest feeling that Alec Salmond is not likely to be knighted if successful…

  99. A2 says:

    I’m pretty sure we will see these on tv at some point ( well you will , I don’t have one) The bbc is building a new studio out back right now specifically to cover the games and the referendum.(allegedly)

  100. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    A bouncy castle?



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