Gogszilla Returns (to the back benches)
Posted on
October 03, 2014 by
Greg Moodie
3 Trackbacks/Pingbacks 
-
03 10 14 17:00
Gordzilla Returns (to the back benches) | FreeScotland
Ignored -
03 10 14 18:00
Gogszilla Returns (to the back benches) | FreeScotland
Ignored -
07 10 14 05:11
Wings Over Scotland RSS Feed
Ignored
There are some people in the office here giving me some VERY strange looks….
prrrrrrrrrr prrrrrrrr prrrrrrrrrr
“There are some people in the office here giving me some VERY strange looks….”
YEAH, BUT HAVE YOU READ THE CARTOON YET!!?!?!!?!?!!??
(Not) here all week, folks! Try the fish!
Genius stuff, Greg!
It’s ‘arse’ not ‘ass’. FFS!
Aye.
Robinson is the new bunny.
Nice.
think that’s my favourite yet – love it!
Not to disparage any of Greg’s earlier pieces, but this really surpasses anything he has done before.
Of course, he had the material to work with…
Brilliant Greg ta
Nothing wrong w some ass!
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
Watch it! You don’t want to get on Morag’s bad side.
That’s a week gone past and I’m bored. Bored of Cameron, Milletband,Brown,Westminster – Vows, Wars,Tornadoes. Fact is I don’t want to hear or read any more from them. I know, I know – stay close to your enemies – but the UK’s MSM, BBC, and the politicos has slipped seamlessly back into the Westminster Village politics of lies and prevarication.
I’ve received a Thank You note from Blair Jenkins but I’m disappointed that there wasn’t any outline plan or commitment from him to continue the Independence campaign.
So when do we start the second half of our campaign, with or without Blair Jenkins?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29476172 We’re all fcuked now.
Liked Cameron’s last quote. Gordy didn’t save The Union, just Cameron’s job.
Aye! Scotland is amassing an army to fight back and regain our country from Westminster rule.
Loved it Greg.
heedtracker
I fell off the seat, honestly.
@ velofello
Without, it is up to us.
I felt his letter, like the official Yes campaign was anodyne.
There are enough of us, organised in vast number of cells, able to communicate and co-ordinate and take the battle to the enemy.
Many a true word said in jest, and there are many true words there
O/t
SNP membership now 100,000
Great cartoon. London thinks it’s all over. The dinosaur should climb back into his well lined box. They’ll stitch together a few extra powers plus taxes and a mechanism of reducing the block grant so we can be taxed more for the same services. Everybody in the Westminster bubble happy. Back to business as usual.
Well, it should now be our mission to give them their next big shock!
Hey, it’s my cartoon. You don’t like the word ‘ass’? Get your own cartoon.
If Michael Crichton were still alive, he could have written Jurassic Park IV: the English establishment.
O/T can we take UK gov to ECHR for failing to provide a fair and just referendum. Just a thought might even get there before new powers are delivered.
O/T
time to bombard them with our wish lists
“Lord Smith has also asked members of the public to contribute their views on strengthening Holyrood’s powers before the deadline of 31 October, using the e-mail address haveyoursay@smith-commission.scot.”
Thats – haveyoursay@smith-commission.scot
Omg @ 100k SNP members! BRilliant cartoon, love Nick Robinson just hanging around like a bad smell.
On a more serious note, we have the email address for contributions to the Smith commission. I don’t think it does any harm to respond ?
Ahk its ok fur the big beastie Gogszilla tae appear the noo his pal Diddy Davie’s sent the RAF jets tae Cyprus so’s the Big Bens no his perch.
Well done Greg the cartoons lifted weary spirits.
@ One less Day @ 5.42pm
Where did you get SNP membership figure from?
Oh well, it is no Chris Cairns but I.Suppose it will do.
So that’s what Gordon Brown was doing whilst PM, gumming.
only been a couple of weeks,seems like years
Brilliant, and I’ve ordered the book too.
Many groups are now organising and discussing what’s next, indeed look out for Indy Livestream on Sunday 5th from Lochgilphead. Man, I can’t wait.
Scotland flies whilst Westminster isn’t watching…!
http://www.dailynewsen.com/politics/companies-with-links-to-tories-have-won-15bn-worth-of-nhs-contracts-h2728545.html
hot air, don’t forget non opted out TTIP?
Cancelled 38 deg membership now. Any link to SNP 100,000 membership?
I’m not sure that’s right about there being 100,000 SNP members – I think some new applications are being double-counted by over-enthusiastic twitter users. Peter Murrell’s most recent tweeted total is from yesterday and quotes 75,759. Which is still bloody amazing of course.
Trust me when I say, that’s the first laugh out loud moment I’ve had in a fortnight.
Brilliant Greg. 😀
Another masterclass cartoon.
SNP student membership now 3,859
Another masterclass cartoon.
SNP student membership now 3,859
Big Gordy is a dinosaur. One step at a time from here on in, starting with and SNP vote in 2015. There is only 7 months left start persuading people now that this is the only way to go.
When you get knocked down? Then you get up again, no let up.
Very well done Greg. it fairly made me laugh. Aye the chickens would appear to be coming home to roost in short order.
I’ve had my say to the smith talk shop. Probably could have saved my breath as they’ll be oot lookin fur the longest grass that they can find tae kick it intae.
We do indeed live in interesting times folks.
Women for Independence conference in Perth tomorrow is sold out. Hope they have arranged for a livestream or a video to upload.
Oops, meant to say the cartoon is brilliant. Gordo certainly is a dinosaur.
The 100,000 membership was reported as being on Peter Murrells facebook page I do not do facebook so could not check it out, just took it at face value
Apologies if it’s wrong
1,000,000 members would be hilarious.
I couldn’t find anything about membership numbers posted today on the SNP Facebook page, which is where I was told it was. Peter Murrell has a page of his own but as far as I can see he doesn’t use it.
I don’t do Facebook myself though so I may be missing something. (I still think the tweet was double-counting, wherever they got it from. 80,000 possibly, not 100,000.)
SNP membership is at 75,000 plus. Do not think it is at 100,000.
Nick: I won’t come in your mouth. Promise.
Willie: Erm, eh, well…
Ian Brotherhood
Fine “wineing” on flavoured cider already?
@BtP –
Not yet mister. Still some chauffeuring, then the quaffing…
Re BBC Poll tax
Jim Gifford ‘leader’ of Aberdeenshire Council which underspent £20Million.
Nothing on the proposals from the UK government?
‘Scots further tax plan released ‘within two weeks’’
“We are examining at the moment what more we can do to pass decisions to local areas, decisions around housing, planning, potentially local taxation as well.” – Osborne
Seems like an attempt to undermine Holyrood and restart the rise of council tax to me.
This is what we thought Labour would do if they got hold of Holyrood.
This isn’t going to be pretty.
I B
Have fun.
Ian dear I need that car NOW.
Unionists refused to put a third “devolution” question on the referendum ballot paper. Despite a purdah, they then put it back on the ballot paper in the last week of the campaign with their “vow” promising more devolution if people voted no. Now the Unionists have taken devolution back off the agenda with the referendum being safely stolen via the usual propaganda campaign of lies and misrepresentations. Scots can go back again to being politically impotent when it comes to running their own country and their own affairs.
Thanks Gordon. The Tories couldn’t have done it without you and your blacklegging red tory scab party.
@BtP –
I’ve got a wee kerry-oot ready, and an enormous bag of peanuts.
Intend to sit back and watch the 55% rise up and do their bit…if enough of them demand that their names be withdrawn from Brown’s ‘petition’ then the number of signatories may start to fall. That would be a first, surely?
I B
Good luck with that.
I suspect that will not happen. Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas.
Nick ‘The Guarantor’ Clegg’s first hit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDjRZ30SNo
How long before we get the follow-up?
SNP – 75, 000 members and 25k waiting to be processed.
I think you’re double-counting that 25,000. From Peter Murrell’s tweets, the 75,000 includes the 25,000 that aren’t yet fully in the system.
Good article by James Forrest.
http://www.commentisntfree.com/written-by-the-winners/
From the dark depths of radioactive Dalgety bay it came. A gigantic, mutant reptile like no other, with evil lizard eyes, shiny white teeth and a mighty roar that shook the earth. It came to main and destroy the hopes and dreams of a nation. And yet, for all it’s size and noise, the great lumbering, sulking, cowardly beast showed a remarkable ability to hide, to slink away back into the shadows when the people started to fight back. But Gordzilla was not finished, Gordzilla is never finished. Gordzilla is still waiting patiently for his next opportunity to strike. The next opportunity to main and destroy. And when it comes, he will strike. And then he will slink back into the dark shadows from whence he came.
@ Bugger the Panda: So Blair Jenkins was just a hired gun then?
BBC aren’t biased in his view? So he never saw or read the Uni of West of Scotland analysis? Or watched BBC?
Has he been paid?
Great cartoons, the comic strip style would look good in a pro-indy newspaper….
At FMQ’s yesterday I was surprised that Lamont led with the NHS story and had a go at the FM about his golf handicap.I presume she was having a go at his presence at the Ryder Cup. I thought Neil Findlay, as the Health spokesman, would have asked these questions. Other alert readers will be aware that Findlay couldn’t make any comment about the golf because HE had a ticket for the Ryder Cup!!
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msps/currentmsps/27615.aspx
“On 26 September 2014 I received a ticket to attend the first day’s play of the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles. This ticket was for access to the course only and did not exceed the £570 threshold for registration in the gifts category. [Registered 29 September 2014]”
Mr Findlay also has registered other golf related interests, including playing at Gleneagles!!
I have no problem with Findlay attending any golf related activities, but for the leader of the British Labour Party (North Britain branch) to try and score cheap political points on such a flawed basis just sums them up. Was Findlay not consulted, did he not see the speech in advance?
They cannot challenge policies,because the govt is delivering, so they can only attack the person.She is hopelessly inadequate and long may she remain in post.
Fred Blogger 7pm
“The Conservatives strongly denied any wrongdoing. “Any suggestion of impropriety is malicious and defamatory and will be treated as such,” stated a spokesman. ”
You are a bunch of lying, cheating, conning, murderous b######s.
Defame that !
Blood kept at constant boiling point these days 🙂
Thanks @Greg have been looking forward to this – well the cartoons, not what’s actually happening in them (particularly the second one) which is provoking slightly nervous laughter here.
@Valerie:
I concur with Morag. There was also a graph showing the total tally of members, and it stopped at 75,000.
@BtP:
news from the SNP by the way?
Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas.
What about pandas?
Another great cartoon Greg!
Brilliant the way Nick Clegg has become Cameron’s fag.
Sort of reminded me of the Scottish film director Lindsay Anderson’s movie “if” which was on Film4 last night. Set in a public school it savagely attacks the class ridden English elite that is still with us. A great movie. Must watch again the director’s “Britannia Hospital”. Made in ’82 but is a critique of the privatisation of the NHS.
@Greg
I must protest, Gordon Brown gets to shaft the whole of Scotland AND gets Raquel Welsh?
Nurse, vi*gra!
We could do with some strategy for the future from the YES leadership in response to the massive will to fight back that is rising within the YES supporters and activists.
Come on guys – your country needs you!
75,000 to 100,000…..let’s adopt The Margo Principle and each recruit 1 person to SNP ….. Can we make 150,000 by next Friday? Respect to Alex Salmond…finally got a hearing on GMS and well done you on your input on the Poll Tax…..took the wind out of their sails…yet again….Master Class!
O/T Could someone post the link to Robin McAlpine’s most recent vid from the other day, I can’t find it anywhere.
Cheers
I got the figure from Working Class Man, so have asked him for the source, but Alan Wylie is usually pretty meticulous about what he posts.
Of course we could do with some leadership from YES seniors but they have packed up and gone home. I got the same thank you email from Blair Jenkins today as mentioned in above comments. I replied saying just exactly what I thought of the weak and toothless strategy of the Yes Leadership throughout the campaign and questioned whether Jenkins had even been on our side. I also pointed out the situation that I and others like me have been left in, completely vulnerable to, and suffering from all the tory policy excesses which continue forevermore, thanks to Jenkins et al.’s failures that we were all loudly pointing out in the hope that the formal YES campaign would address them effectively in time to salvage the vote. I got an email reply saying that thye had all packed up after the referendum – couldn’t wait to get home to count their wages of in by omission no doubt and to hell with the grassroots who can wither as far as Jenkins et al. are concerned (and there is no doubt a few of us will).
Three livestream events tomorrow from 12 noon./a>
Is the Morag here, the Morag from Dundee? There is a Morag months ago that filleted ‘Call Kay’ re the ‘commemoration’ of the First World War. A wonderful moment in broadcasting!
“Labour MP would like to ban your benefits if you don’t vote”
http://theironbridge.wordpress.com/2013/07/17/labour-mp-would-like-to-ban-your-benefits-if-you-dont-vote/
That was a good article by James Forrest (comments isn’t free), needs to be put out there folks and supported.
It was an excellent piece of work by our First Minster yesterday and today, when he kicked the legs right from under of the unionist politians who tried to use voter registration as a means to claim unpaid poll tax, just to scare people from registering to vote.
It was just the typical dirty tactic you can expect from the unionist cowards, who are too scared of ordinary people being allowed to vote unless its their own supporters.
Well done Alex, your ten times the Scot those useless unionist excuses are, it was a great move.
I’ve been chasing this 100,000 thing round Twitter and it doesn’t seem to have any substance. It’s not on any official SNP outlet. Many people are enthusiastically re-tweeting it in the belief that it’s true, and then getting all huffy if someone (usually me, heigh-ho) points out that it’s mistaken.
I’ve seen two garish graphics announcing it as fact, with RT RT RT RT RT RT RT as the caption on one. Both created by people with no inside SNP knowledge. Lesson for Friday. Things don’t become magically true just because someone made a lurid poster saying so.
The last official number tweeted by Peter Murrell was 75,759, at 5pm yesterday. He hasn’t tweeted today at all, he’s probably having a day off. So although it’s likely the number is a little higher as applications are still coming in, we also know the rate has fallen off so it’s not going to be much higher.
What seems to have happened is that Peter also tweeted first thing yesterday morning that there were “only” 26,946 applications remaining to process through the system. It was obvious that the 5pm tweet of 75,759 included the applications in the waiting-to-be-processed pile, but someone had a rush of blood to the brain and added them in again.
Sometimes I despair of the critical thinking faculties of my fellow man, I really do.
british hostage taxi driver beheaded
If the ‘vow’ was all lies and bollocks,shouldn’t we declare the result null and void then declare Independence without Westminster’s permission?
@ Marian.
We could do with some strategy for the future from Wings over Scotland.
What will Wings position be on the May 2015 elections and the 7 months lead up to them?
Does Wings just stay on the sidelines pelting the Unionist parties?
Is that a worthy goal or even a useful one?
Wikipedia on the SNP membership says:
“This page was last modified on 3 October 2014 at 19:24.”
Fionan, you articulate what has been in my mind since I first heard of Blair Jenkins’s appointment. On the few occasions I actually said it aloud I was savaged for my disloyalty by everyone in earshot. It was only a thought, a hunch, anyway.
I’d never heard of him before he got the Yes job. And he was a former BBC insider. At first I thought maybe he was ready to do a Bateman, at least (this was actually before Batemann himself came out as a cybernat), but it soon became clear it wasn’t going to be like that.
I began to wonder, if I was the British State, and I really wanted to cut Yes Scotland off at the knees, what would I do? I’d line up several plausible, apparently well-qualified candidates for the job of CE of the new organisation when the job adverts appeared, and hope to hell one of them was actually appointed.
Yes Scotland was always going to have an uphill struggle. It wasn’t going to need major active sabotage to cause it to fail. Passive, apparently benign incomptence would probably be quite enough.
Now if I can think of that, I should imagine the UK government insiders tasked with stopping Yes at all costs could think of it. It’s not rocket science. More than that, it’s actually DOABLE.
Forget crazy fantasies about swapping ballot papers and think more deviously, guys.
bookie from hell
Was only ever one outcome to that. But no worries, we’ll stop it ever happening again by playing our bombing games.
Madness doesn’t come close to describing what’s happening.
Conan, the Wikipedia page seems to be right, citing 72,759 which is the most recent officially-released number albeit a whole 29 hours out of date.
Hey, Peter just tweeted the updated number for today!
76,688!
@ Morag
“The SNP is the largest political party in Scotland in terms of membership, MSPs and local councillors, with over 100,000 members, 65 MSPs and 424 councillors.[1][22][23] The SNP also currently holds 6 of 59 Scottish seats in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom and 2 of 6 Scottish seats in the European Parliament.”
“This page was last modified on 3 October 2014 at 21:15”
It’s now covered in wee Union flags.
Some wee prick having a laugh.
Latest tweet at 10pm from Peter Murel at SNP Hq. Total number of membership 76,688.
thomaspotter2014
Not if we want to carry a decent majority of support. The Conservatives are hell bent on creating the conditions where the 55% will wake up from their complacent slumber. Just wait and see what happens when the middle and upper classes are watching the great British Baker Off and cracks start to run up their Farrow and Ball covered walls in the New Town or the West End. Or flames start pishing our their taps.
There will be Yes windaes in Heriot Row by the time the Tories start motoring with a fresh mandate.
That’s why they removed their last conference pledges and promises from their manifesto before the last election from their website.
In November last year the Tories not only had the documents been purged from their website, the Conservatives have also used a “robot blocker” to ensure the documents are hidden from search engines and removed from the ‘Internet Archive’ an online library.
Some of the speeches removed from the website contain pledges from the Conservatives that they would use the internet to be a more “transparent” and “accessible” Government if elected.
In a speech on “Open Source Politics” at the Royal Society of Arts in March 2007 George osbourne said that the Conservatives need to “harness the internet to help us become more accountable, more transparent and more accessible – and so bridge the gap between government and governed.”
No Top down re orginasation of the NHS – He used his child for that one as well.
Vote Blue Go Green
The big society
You can look at all the broken pledges here
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/datablog/2010/nov/22/coalition-pledge-tracker-data
The sheep will follow him like a shepard though.
1.6 million of us in Scotland tried to demand for something better and a better democracy. However, we failed but we tried. However 2 million took the safe option and they now ask us to vote tactically in the Westminster elections.
Oh the irony of living in Scotland. A country where we have to vote tactically in a Westminster election. Instead of voting for who we like. We are suposed to vote for a party who left us all over 20 years ago to keep out a party that left us 40 years ago.
Oh how democratic. Oh what a true democracy when you have to play with the voting system and sell your vote and still end up with a party that none of the majority voted for.
Well I say to the 1.6 million voters NO !
Don’t vote tactically to support a party that left us all 20 years ago to keep out a party that left us 40 years ago. I say we are much better than that and I also say our democracy deserves much better than that. We deserve much better than that.
I say why give up or sell your vote to somebody who has left you 20 years ago. I say demand and demand so much better from the people with power. I say show some respect to the millions around the world who fought and died just to get a vote. I say don’t piss on their graves and vote for a party you like. A party that has the interests of Scotland at its heart.
Why would anybody in their right mind vote for a party that left us all 20 years ago to stop a party from winning that left us all 40 years ago. Why on earth would anybody want to vote and live in a country with a democracy like that.
I’m still trying to figure the answer to these questions and apologising every day to the millions of people around the world who fought and died just to get a vote.
One thing is for sure. I’ll never vote for any Westminster party again. I’ll never waste or trade my vote on the charade and circus they call Westminster.
The 2 million voters who voted against a democratic Scotland will go back to their parties. They will go back to the Conservatives and UKIP and they’ll go back to the Lib Dems and they’ll go back to the Greens and they’ll go back to the SNP and they’ll go back to Labour.
Yet, the voters who voted NO and who will go back to Labour will now want us all to give away our democracy. They’ll want us to rip up democracy and vote for a party that left us all 20 years ago to keep out a party that left us all 40 years ago. This is the sham and the circus called the Scottish democracy this is the world they want us to live in. They want us to vote for a party that does not even represent us. Can you actually believe that they are fine with that. Can you believe that they even actually support a democratic system like that.
What a cheek. The brass neck of it all and the hypocracy of it all stinks to high heaven.
Well I say NO ! I say vote for a party that you think represents you, like in any morale democratic vote. I say don’t vote for a party that left us all 20 years ago. If we end up with a Tory government then so be it.
It’s maybe what they deserve after voting against a proper democratic system that would have removed the Tories from Scotland forever. Instead of having a system that makes you sell your vote to a party that does not have your best interests at heart. It is unbelieveable to think that selling your vote is somehow right ?
Vote for a party that represents your views. If we end up with a tory government then so be it. Vote in a democratic way and don’t sell your vote to a party that does not have your best interests at heart. Having a Tory government might wake them up a bit and make them reflect on their decision not to have a true morale democratic process in place. A process the silent majority were quite happy to turn their backs on for the sake of staying with the union.
Hi Morag, Blair Jenkins! Is that not what I was on about in my comment! He was atrocious! But why for Gods sake! This wasn’t something we were just trying out! This was it! This was what some of us had worked for,for decades!
@Morag
Then there is this.
testing!
Wee flags now gone.
“This page was last modified on 3 October 2014 at 21:26.”
Hi Morag honey, hi Ian doll – and others – have we all put the handbags down? Please, I love you all, even those I disagree with – let’s be nice to each other xx
Conan, I never saw the union flags so someone must have fixed that soon after you saw it.
I checked the page and found it was correct, except the reference for the membership number was out of date and led to an older tweet citing a lower number. Someone must have updated the number without the reference. So I went to Peter’s twitter account to get the link to the correct tweet to fix this.
When I got there I discovered a new tweet with the new number for today. So I went back and logged in to Wikipedia and updated the whole thing to 76,688 with the link to the brand new tweet.
So all is well until the next unionist sabitage attack I suppose.
mmm I would have preferred ‘Gorgonzilla’ the big cheese of prehistoric politicians… ok I’ll get me coat!
Brilliant cartoon as ever Greg 🙂
@Derek Henry
Concur with everything you say. No longer can you vote “to keep the Tories out” You must vote positively and for a party you can support wholeheartedly.
I’m voting SNP in 2015 and SSP in 2016, I am happy to put my vote behind both.
@Morag
I thought you hated conspiracy theories? Maybe the truth was that Blair Jenkins was not really a leader type. To be honest, I think the simple truth is that we did not reach enough people, and the majority of Nos kept their head down and did not really engage with the debate. I also reckon the referendum came too soon, in terms of building up alternative media, and a real grassroots independence movement only really emerged in 2012. What beat us imo was the MSM/No campaign/big business, plus the small conservatism of many people in Scotland this time around. I think we need to look forward now.
@cynical lowlander
I think it is a bit too soon to be demanding strategy from Wings for the general election campaign next year. After all, Rev Stu is in midst of well deserved time off after working so hard over the last few years.
Morag honey – what’s sabitage xxxxxx and xxxxxxxx
@ Paula Rose
It’s where you insert South African bits into machinery.
During apartheid of course…
The official Yes campaign was absolutely dismal and so unimaginative that I have had more excitement watching moss growing.
I sent them more money than I could really afford over a two year period and I wish now that I’d just sent it to the SNP.
We weren’t allowed to show any cultural emotion at all and I never once heard the word Freedom.
We were almost discouraged from using the description Scottish patriots for ourselves and just kept getting empty phrases like ‘civic nationalism’ which, when you are trying to make your country free, is like trying to make butter without milk.
I suspected two years ago it was going to end like this when there wasn’t any ‘buzz’ coming out of the Yes campaign. A bunch of grey suits was all we got. Were it not for the unofficial campaign by the Scots themselves we wouldn’t even have got 45%.
My deepist sympathy for the family of the british hostage.
Conan dear, what makes wings the best is keeping you all in line, I love you all.
You only need to look at the Wings readership figures to see how many only became in engaged in the final weeks. Those that doubled the numbers here were internet users and i presume computer savvy.
Neither Blair Jenkins nor Alex Salmond or any individual lost the campaign for a Yes vote. The might of the establishment won it for them, we didn’t lose it no matter the deficiencies of the official Yes campaign.
We were outgunned on this occasion but surely we learned a lot? This referendum will be talked about for a long time to come. In my view, most amazing of all is the aftermath of the result.
So many believe they have been “robbed” of a democratic victory by using the MSM to manipulate the vote in their favour. Why do think so many new people never before involved in politics have joined Pro-Indy parties? Next time we will be ready for them.
That fight starts right now with an eye on the 2015 GE, giving them a bloody nose is the only thing that will get you noticed.
No slacking!
@ Mutley.
We all worked hard over the last 2 years. Some of us with other careers and jobs to weave everything round, we missed out on family life, we got soaked delivering newspapers, we travelled to events and gave everything we could to the referendum campaign.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask the question ” Where to next? ”
Or will it just be “more of the same?” Because I’m not willing to accept just more of the same.
Do we “soar above Scottish Politics” ?
And exactly how do we do that?
It would appear that Mr Alan Henning, the valiant taxi driver who went to deliver humanitarian supplies to people in Syria
Who were in desperate need, has been murdered by that diabolical organisation known as IS.
Even after desperate pleas from senior clerics of the Muslim Faith and the man’s wife they still saw fit to carry out their barbarous act.
It is tragic and Mr Henning’s family must be beside themselves with grief.
It would be wrong to belittle the courage of this man and the dignity of his grieving family, so, I will stay my anger and send my deepest condolences to his wife and family.
I am sorry for their troubles.
@Paula Rose says:
what’s sabitage
Sunday snack!
@Alex.
The readership figures are one thing Alex. Ever tried to translate that into active volunteers? Ask any of the referendum agents about how they were flooded out with volunteers for polling agents and counting agents.
There’s quite a few keyboard warriors about here, and there’s quite a few big ego’s around too just trying to push their own agenda.
And there’s a lot of daft comments too which are more suited to the place known as off topic.
Why do some people need a god to do evil?
Conan, here’s the Wiki edit comparison showing the thing with the flags you saw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scottish_National_Party&diff=628133113&oldid=628132493
Lasted 6 minutes before someone reverted it!
Blair Jenkins is a public servant and what we really needed was someone with a bit more pzazz. Having someone who was not a politician I thought initially was a plus as non politicians would probably be trusted more. At the end of the day I’m not sure how much that mattered. A bit of passion in interviews might have gone a long way, but he was ever restrained in his approach and answers.
I fired off an email to Blair Jenkins in frustration at being sent regular demands for money without receiving any information on progress, or what was happening/envisaged in the campaign. To me, those were wasted emails. A case based on what was being done with our donations and what they wanted to do would have gone a long way to enthusing people to give more. As it was, I decided to give to Wings instead as I knew what my money was being spent on. Wrong, perhaps, but if they didn’t enthuse me (a lifelong indy supporter) how many more did they put off.
@cynical lowlander
I understand your point of view but I was trying to highlight the increase in readers not potential activists in the final weeks before the vote. The activists were already here and doing their small bit in their own way.
It is quite clear though that the great majority of the voting public do not engage at all until the vote is almost upon them. It will likely remain that way.
However, my final point was that if you want to make change possible then you (the activist) must continue from now on. At least then you have a chance of bringing others around to our point of view well before the vote.
Something like 60,000 new party members and the increased funding associated with that can help make a difference in 2015.
I doubt many join a political party without giving it some consideration. Almost 90,000 committed voices now in Scotland, around 6% of those that voted Yes believe in it enough to sign up to carry on the fight.
That will do for me. As a start.
@Paula Rose
at 10:59pm
“Why do some people need a god to do evil?”
Gods don’t kill people. People with gods kill people.
@cynical lowlander
Where now is a good question. However, Rev Stu and others deserve a break. Questions like that need time for consideration and thought.
The Moody Blues had an apropos hit called “Go Now”, which the chronologically challenged might, in an unguarded moment, admit to remembering.
Strangely the Moodie Brown reference is equally appropriate.
Derek Henry
Good post – I agree wholeheartedly. We are going to have the ‘vote labour to keep the tories out propaganda from the BBC and the likes of the Record non-stop… and the same pish but the other way round from other rags.
They are all the same, red or blue. We have a war on 2 fronts facing us but unlike the entire referendum campaign the advantage has switched. Westminster is on the defensive, the press to an extent are feeling ill at ease and Yes is on solid ground thanks to Gordon and his last minute ego trip.
The membership increases is very encouraging but demands effort by the SNP in particular to make that membership inclusive, involved and engaging.
@ Man in the Jar – I also have a problem with people who need a god to do good.
Absolutely, condolences to Mr Hennings family. They must be going through hell, But condolences also to all those families in all the middle eastern countries who have lost loved ones in horrific circumstances due to the horrendous acts of the West in propping up their favoured regimes at any one time.
And every time we do take ‘action’ that we justify with a myriad of reasons (excuses) we perpetuate and exacerbate all the issues we claim to be solving.
Who’s agenda and who are we kidding?
Oh and we just missed our chance to distance ourselves from all this madness.
@The Man in the Jar
Gods don’t kill people. People with gods kill people.
Quite.
A wee note, I heard the end of a news item tonight. regarding Longannet Power Station maybe closing. I know the pit has mine workings going under the river forth and beyond.
Could the Fracking companies maybe be planning something?
Or could it be close the power station and hey we will give you employment in this new super dooper safe energy that WILL CONTAMINATE THE WATER SUPPLY and is NOWHERE NEAR LONDON.
Just a thought
Gary.
@Paula Rose
“Imagine theres no heaven, above us only sky. No hell below us. Its easy if you try”
Fuck it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVg2EJvvlF8
@ The Man in the Jar – I ken.
Can anybody help with a link to a site with all of the rag front pages for the next day.
Looking for a link to tomorrows front pages if anybody can help.
Muttley, I quite like conspiracy theories. I just get very very irritated by conspiracy theories that are either wildly, impossibly implausible, or can be actively refuted. And yet these are the ones that seem to grow the most legs.
I could be entirely wrong about Blair Jenkins. Absolutely, completely wrong. But I can’t see that the notion is either a priori wildly implausible, or actively refuted.
Before Yes Scotland was set up, I was expecting and looking forward to a charismatic figure who had, and showed, as much passion for independence as we ourselves feel. Someone we could trust to be as committed as we were, even though they were being paid for it. Someone who would surprise us all with the innovative and exciting initiatives we would be involved in to get the Yes vote buzzing.
When I heard an ex-BBC man had been appointed my first thought was that perhaps this was someone in the mould of Derek Bateman (as we didn’t at that time know Derek was). Someone who was pro-independence, passionately, and knew how the BBC worked from the inside. So, perhaps, he’d be able to counter the bias in some way. But a wee voice in the back of my head said, but he could be 5th column, you know.
I think everyone wanted to believe that “good Blair” was cutting the mustard. That he was on our side. He came over as a nice guy, of course. But I never heard him say one thing that wasn’t a platitude. And what was the Grand Plan? In effect, do it yourself! Go out and build a grass-roots movement and convert people, one conversation at a time.
Actually that bit was inspired, but I’m not sure anyone realised it at the time. The grass-roots became the movement. But we needed more from Yes Scotland than badges and stickers and posters and anodyne newspapers and leaflets. We needed people to go up against Project Fear and show that it was a paper tiger. We didn’t get that.
In the end, bits of the grass roots tried to fill the gaps. Stuart in particular somehow managed the leadership bit for rather a lot of us, and filled in some of the deficiencies in the literature department with leaflets and the WBB. But he couldn’t get on TV or in the papers with the gravitas that the leadership of Yes Scotland could command.
I’ve been biting my tongue on this for many months. Now Yes Scotland, the official organisation, is history, maybe we can talk about it sensibly. And if there is good reason to believe that Blair Jenkins was no more than a poor appointment of someone without the right qualities, then so be it. I’m just not yet convinced.
When the referendum campaign started we were on 30 odd percent.Remember the first rally in Edinburgh? BBC said 5000 there.We all knew it was nearer 10,000,but it wasn’t a lot,was it? For a national independence movement? A year later 20,000 attended.It would have looked a bit pathetic in Murrayfield.Flash mob in Aberdeen shortly before the vote and half a percent of the local population took to the streets.Average donation per Yes voter? Hardly a couple of quid per head.People wanted it more on the nineteenth than the eighteenth.
@Bruce Wallace
The no red tories twitter page usually put up pics
check it out here
https://twitter.com/Independent_SCO
The YES campaign is responsible for creating the biggest grassroots political movement in Scottish history which is now comprised of two-and-a-half-year battle-hardened campaigners and activists. They aren’t going to go away just because the corrupt Westminster elite stole the referendum with a propaganda blitzkrieg of lies about devolution and pension scare stories. They are mobilised, motivated, self-sustaining and just itching to take on the British Establishment again in the guise of the red tory scab party at the forthcoming UK general election.
Some excellent stuff from Robin McAlpine –
Robin McAlpine – Common Weal “long-game” prospectus can lead Scotland to independence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkC2qW8KhO8&list=UUAi1q4QL2HZ2hErZwrziNQg
I remember the Moody Blues! I liked them! @Chic McGregor.
All I want to know( it’s not rocket science) Why did nobody in YES! Including the SNP, not come out on TV and produce the McCrone report, or phone ” call Kaye” when Louise White was dismembering the Yes vote! WHY did they not??? You see nobody can answer that! Or Nobody wants to!
@Bruce Wallace
You can get them at the link below, though I’m sure there is another site that gets them up quicker and links have been posted here before. For now, hope this helps.
http://en.kiosko.net/uk/
Thanks Greg. Brilliant medicine.
Why did no-one invite me on TV to display my world famous heels?
Pretty harsh to be focussing on Blair Jenkins as one of our main reasons. He was probably too nice if that is his downfall, and failed to counter claims when challenged, or dug in like his opposite in McDougall and played dirty did. A good honest man gets nowhere though in this tough old game, and the old phrase nice guys finish last comes round for Blair.
We didn’t win because at the end of it all, not enough people wanted to take a ‘risk’. I think we, all the yes voters believe the riskier option was to stay in the UK – look at 2 weeks on from the vote and all the shíte that has come around from fracking to oil technology advancements, now today’s it could take 3 years for these “new powers” to be implemented.
Scots love this image of being canny and having our cake and eating it regards vote Labour for WM and SNP in Holyrood, but we truly have, or not us, but the ones of the 55% who thought they would vote no and get more powers.
We all tried our best. We all had much to offer in different ways.
An example – a friend kept sending me the usual crap lines – we can’t use the pound, we’ll be out the EU, farmer’s produce will be more expensive, and so on. I countered every single claim with PDFs, files, links, videos and so on. Spent a bit of time doing so as well.
He kept coming back with “I was told at a meeting we’d be moving our offices south”, etc, and was often told “I’d love a free Scotland, but if my mortgage goes up I’ll be raging.”
He just was too feart.
Again, I tried, we all tried in persuading.
He said he didn’t vote, but I doubt it.
Another I know just couldn’t be moved from a no position. I asked him one night to give me 2 benefits of the Union. Heck, I think I could myself as a Scottish nationalist, but he couldn’t, he couldn’t.
Many did move though – the end result of my friends was 12-2 to Yes. It was 8-4-2(dks) at one point.
45% was a good start. We’ll get an amazing finish. This is not over. There’s a saying in a song by an Icelandic band called Sigur Rós – “Þetta er ágætis brýjun, við gerum betur næst” – it means something like “we did ok, but we’ll do better next”
Our chance will come quicker than Quebec’s second did. Keep the faith and let’s keep on focussing.
75, must be near 80k now SNP members
7-8k Greens
4k SSP.
We all work together stragetically for Westminister in a I scratch yours, you scratch mine – and then go for it in Holyrood and I’d like to see a SNP majority of course as a member, but if we can see a few more SSP and Greens at the hands of Labour and the Libs,Tories then woohoo.
Look at that last poll. We’ll be looking at a SNP-Green government in 2016.
Let’s see what Lord Smith’s commission brings out. I doubt like many it’ll be anything of substance at all, but we all work together and put through progressive arguments for what we need. We sit tight, we offer our views.
Devo Max for 2015.
They won’t give us it. That means devolved EVERYTHING. They won’t give up the oil revenue amongst others.
We’ll be back in those booths again in a short time frame, I’m predicting openly 3-7 years and this time with more than 6% of the 55% on our sides and we’ll be voting Yes as a nation.
Agree entirely with the comments re the lack-lustre Yes campaign. I twice emailed the Yes campaign offices asking them to spice up the Newspapers as they were uniformly uninspiring and repetitive. Never any appeal to Scottish culture or history, and never any strong rebuttal of the No campaign lies about pensions. I never got a reply, although I had delivered thousands of the papers and had a lot of experience of the reaction to them.
Blair Jenkins is a good man and tried hard but, in my opinion, we need a more charismatic and dynamic person to head our next effort. How are these positions filled anyway?
Yeah Morag exactly! Stu did more for Yes than YES did!
The YES campaign was PATHETIC!
Why is it ok to dissect it all now! We have lost the Referendum! But that’s NOT ok!
I want answers! I,ll let you know if I get any!
Nana Smith
Your a star, Thanks.
“At least it’s warm.” Brilliant line, brilliant cartoon!
@Morag –
‘I’ve been biting my tongue on this for many months.’
…when you could’ve been sharing it with us all, right here.
Ochone, ochone…
@Mo9rag
at 11:25pm
Hi Morag. I believe that we had this conversation some time ago. Like about two years! I think that I accused Yes Scotland of sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya while the bad guys skulked in the shadows.
I think that we should have had better leadership. Someone with some charisma to rouse the troops. I cant believe Blair Jenkins and his stance on BBC bias. What campaign was he watching?
Got the full £145 refund – eat your heart out Nick.
Sorry if it seemed I was disagreeing with comments about Blair Jenkins and the official YES campaign’s lacklustre and uninspiring leadership. I tend to agree with this assessment although there is much to be said for the YES campaign’s widely popular support material (t-shirt, stickers, flags, posters etc) and YES infrastructure such as local YES hubs and shops and daily stalls in towns and centres.
Yes, I did mention it once, but it wasn’t the time.
I could be completely wrong. It’s just something that occurred to me early on and I assumed it was just paranoia and expected events to demonstrate it was a daft idea – but they never did, really.
Whether by accident or design though, Yes Scotland did create something extraordinarily special. The Yes Grass-roots, and that in a way includes everyone, even Wings who was barely tolerated by Yes. And since we never got much in the way of leadership in the first place, maybe it won’t make too much difference that Hope Street is closed and we know we have to make our own leadership.
Joe, some of the Yes material was fine, but flags and badges are hard to get wrong. The more important stuff, the literature we all ran ourselves ragged stuffing through letterboxes, got steadily worse as the campaign progressed.
And the shops were entirely self-starting. One group had the idea, and did it themselves without any help at all from Hope Street. The crowdfunding records are there to prove it. And it worked and other groups started to think, we could do that, and they did. The main Yes Scotland office had nothing to do with them.
Greg
great read , superb talent. Comics rule
QUOTE: He kept coming back with “I was told at a meeting we’d be moving our offices south”, etc, and was often told “I’d love a free Scotland, but if my mortgage goes up I’ll be raging.” He just was too feart.
I have to say I’m fair scunnered with 55% of our population. Can you imagine a Tibetan voting against independence? I think 45% of our population are the best people in the world, especially when you hear the speeches of the likes of Tommy Sheridan, Elaine C. Smith, Jim Sillars et al. But what is to be done about all these pathetic scunners? What if there is a repeat referendum – WM will easily come up with some other scheme to buy these selfish moneygrubbers off with promises of jam in the future – because they care about nothing else. I honestly think we should herd them all into the Borders districts and just present these territories to England! Heck, I would even give them Edinburgh, as well. We have a couple of other capitals anyway – as well as the more deserving cities of Glasgow and Dundee.
Morag,
At the time of his appointment I thought Blair Jenkins was a good choice.He came over as very reasonable and measured.He provided good balance to Salmond,who has more “fire in the belly”.We always knew we couldn’t win in the media and that a grassroots word of mouth campaign was how we would have to fight it.
1.6 million voted Yes.The vast majority did nothing for the campaign other than vote.They didn’t put in the hours and miles you and I did.They didn’t move a half inch out of their comfort zone to try and convert a friend or neighbour.Our grassroots never got anything like big enough because not enough people wanted it badly enough.Maybe people had to go out and vote and get beat in order to really want it.Could someone other than Blair Jenkins have done better? With such limited time on hostile TV,I have my doubts.If we’d had the most brilliantly charismatic campaigner in the world,he wouldn’t have got on the telly at all.
Re all the comments re Blair Jenkins – he wasn’t great and neither were the Yes operation but they still managed to bring a good 15% on board.
If we had had the media on our side it was a shoe-in.
Only 27% of the 55% voted No due to feeling a connection with the UK -at least according to Lord Ashcroft.
PS very good cartoon Greg, still not recovered sense of humour completely
Alex Clark
I like that link, it has them all on one site, the Scottish section only shows the Herald and Scotsman though, could be slow as you said. Thanks
Found this site for the Scottish papers front pages while waiting on this thread updating,
http://thefrontpages.imgur.com/
If anyone ever got anything from the Yes Scotland shop online, without any trouble, would they tell us about it? I only know that everyone I have spoken to has a similar tale of items out of stock and items said to have been despatched but which never arrived, and substitutes being sent out weeks later.
I decided to try it for myself, thinking surely they can’t screw up EVERY order. On 7th September I thought I would like a Yes fleece, for the final week. My neighbour had acquired one after much grief and non-delivery and order-changing and so on, and it fitted me. So I put the order in on the Sunday. I thought, with luck, Tuesday or Wednesday, seeing as it was obvious it would be needed soon.
Friday, still nothing. I phoned. Oh that was sent first class on Tuesday, you should have received it. Offered to re-send the order, but they didn’t have any left in that size. OK, go for the next size up and hope to get it at least for polling day.
On the 19th I got a card from the postie saying the item didn’t have enough postage on it and I had to pay £2.30 at the post office before they would re-deliver.
Actually I haven’t got it even yet, still waiting for the postman to re-deliver so he can take it back to the post office because I’m out, and then this time I will apparently be able to collect it.
So I still don’t know if it will fit.
@Morag, I think we have all got it now; you didn’t like Yes Scotland. So can you now please give it up and move on.
Blair Jenkins did all he could but next time, Elaine C. Smith, if she’s available, She was incredible. Scottish women are classless. Who knows why.
Well, I’ll stop talking about it. If anyone has anything really tangible to suggest I’m wrong, I’d be grateful if they would post it though.
@Bruce Wallace
Glad you found it, that’s the one I was referring too!
I agree about Scottish women. I also think Michelle Thomson of BfS is great; she would be perfect for attracting votes from the Tory/Lib Dem crowd, I think. In my mind, this is the main problem: not preaching to the choir, but getting a good chunk of the NO voters on side. It doesn’t have to be them all, somewhere between 10-20%.
And by the way it’s not about not liking Yes Scotland. I joined up the minute it was consitituted, was at the inaugural meeting of Yes Borders and committed a large part of my leisure time to getting out the Yes Scotland literature. I was a Yes Scotland polling and counting agent on the day.
I’m disappointed. And my disappointment is making me perhaps a wee bit over-suspicious. Because I do realise the people who say “the British State would stop at nothing” aren’t entirely wrong about that.
To be honest, I think Blair Jenkins was a good choice as the sort of person a shallow pensioner might vote for, just because he is good-looking and savvy and “looks as if he is good to his mum”. I still think there is a role for that sort of a person. But the independence campaign should be a real “rainbow alliance”, stretching from the likes of RIC and Tommy to such figures as are more inclined to pull in the middle-class of Newton Mearns and Bearsden. Shame “Sir” Alex Ferguson couldn’t pull himself away from his wine auctions to give the BBC some well-deserved hairdryer treatment. Personally, I would love to see Judy Murray come out fighting and say: sod it, why should I hide it any longer, I’m backing independence — and so are half the GB Davis Cup Squad (my sons)!
Morag @ “the British State would stop at nothing”
You are right there! I have written about this before. The economic argument says to me that rUK would more or less collapse as an economic and military (UN Security Council) power without Scotland. A Scottish pound would strengthen against a rUK pound, the rUK’s trade deficit would, in my view, lead to a run on the pound….. A YES vote just could NOT be allowed to happen. So I almost welcome an approach in which we try to move towards “de facto”, rather than “de jure” independence, say by sending a majority of SNP members to WM or some other way, for example, SNP membership topping a million (and why shouldn’t it?) or YES shops existing in EVERY town and village in the country…
I never got involved with Yes Scotland at all other than ordering a few Yes posters and badges through the website and they did come on time!
I think my point is, I got involved because I wanted to, I wasn’t a member of a political party (then) but I truely did get educated from reading the likes of Wings and NNS.
Truth be told I thought Wings was maybe a wee bit too “out there” for me and initially shied away from it. Kept finding myself coming back though and well the rest is history I suppose.
Talk of “holding their feet to the fire” is exactly what I want to do now, that wouldn’t have been me 18 months ago even but…
I’ve saw my belief in democracy in this crumble, I’ve saw how the state will use every weapon in it’s arsenal to thwart a democratic vote. My eyes have been opened and I am pissed off at what passes for government in this United Kingdom.
They have earned my wrath and plenty more beside I’m sure.
Time is on our side, let them sweat.
Oh Jesus, that was fucking funny.
I’m wiping the tears off my face.
Says it all. Everything.
Morag, I did wonder about Blair Jenkins, so I checked him out. I remember the reason he was picked was because of his career in the BBC and media, something which of course the YES campaign hoped to take advantage of. In the event, it may have helped a little, but Ivan from BfS did a far better job on the screen. There’s a source of info about Blair Jenkins:
http://www.allmediascotland.com/tag/blair-jenkins/
with a few linked articles, from one I think this explains why he was picked:
Continues Jenkins: “Journalism is based on trust and integrity and that needs to be reflected in a new industry-wide code of conduct. It should be inspiring and authentic for all journalists, but also sufficiently clear and reassuring for the public who depend upon those journalists for reliable news and information.
“The independent regulatory system proposed for the press would strike a new balance. You only get the many benefits of being a serious news operation if you also live up to the obligations. If you want the accreditation that gets you special access to the big stories, you have to sign up to decent and reasonable standards.”
The report will be forwarded as a formal submission to the the Leveson Inquiry into press standards.”
I think the reason for YES Scotland’s poor performance is because they planned for a lunatically unrealistic warchest of £24 million, set up the structure and business plan accordingly, but in the event only managed 20% of that, i.e. £4.8 million. Basically, for the grandiose campaign structure they had in mind, they were drastically underfunded.
I think one other factor in galvanising the Nos to come out and vote was the constant talking of ‘no more Tories’. A lot of Scots are pretty conservative in their views and the painting of an iScotland as a socialist utopia was possibly quite a scary thought for them, just as the prospect of a right-wing isolationist state with no Human Rights is scary to the rest of us.
But we have to remember that Scotland was a Conservative-voting country up until the merger with the English Tories, and to campaign like they haven’t a hope of government in iScotland ever again was never going to win them over.
I think for the next phase of the campign we need to make sure parties like the SDA are on board, and the emphasis should be on getting who we vote for, even if that’s a centre-right party. (OK, it’s not likely to happen for a generation or two, if at all, but it is a possibility). And they need to have that possibility of they won’t vote Yes.
The SDA said they were excluded from Yes Scotland which is why we heard so little of them during the campaign. I don’t know the truth of that so I won;t comment further, but we need them to be on board so that voters can see there are parties for all views, not just the eager Left, or we’ll never get them over to yes.
Is this the Morag talking to Morag show?
@Votadini Jeannie –
What is the SDA?
Who or what is the SDA?
Just on about YES Scotland again, I was never fond of their website, but I did come to realise and accept its main purpose after a time. This was in the beginning to get people to signup and create a grassroots organisation, but also to donate.
It was hugely successful in the first, but didn’t do enough to encourage the second. There were articles but they weren’t great, and their layouts on the front page were if I remember correctly, OK back then but could have been better. The standard few lines and then “read more”. The attention span of a typical surfer is about 10 seconds or something like that. Don’t grab it then, they move to the next search engine entry.
Best other thing it did was after Danny Alexander’s giveaway “Give a £1 for Scotland”. That was the only donation they ever got off me and a keen YES son – £1 each exactly!
Scottish Democratic Alliance. In theory a political party who agreed not to stand against the SNP until after Independence.
Alex I share your pain my friend.
But your a fighter and will never give up. We have lost a battle but will win the war. Like you say above , organise and get Indi MP’s in place and Shove Labour down to tory levels where they belong.
@Mealer
“The vast majority did nothing for the campaign other than vote.They didn’t put in the hours and miles you and I did.They didn’t move a half inch out of their comfort zone to try and convert a friend or neighbour.”
“Maybe people had to go out and vote and get beat in order to really want it”
Oh you poor, poor martyr.
If that was your doorstep technique, I think we all know who’s responsible for the 55%.
Clue: it wasn’t anyone who “just” went out on polling day and voted Yes.
Seriously, give it up with the: it was Blair Jenkin’s fault or he was a British plant stuff. It is starting to sound a bit looney tunes now. Jenkins wasn’t the only person in Yes.
I could ask the question where was Dennis Canavan at the end of the campaign? You know the guy who was supposed to be the leader.
What about the people I met at demos who were so sure they lived in Independence strongholds that the Yes votes wouldn’t be counted, it would be weighed in their areas. Well they were half right, the no should have been weighed.
Did these people not try hard enough, of course not, they tried their damnedest to do all they could.
At the end of this campaign, the major lesson to be learned is that once the full weight of the establishment machine comes to bear, and you have no control of conventional media then you are going to lose. The fact we got 45% and might even have sneaked a win is a sensational result. We now know where to concentrate the fight for the next round. The pump is primed and it is now time to move on from the 45% support level. We will gain converts if we show unity but if we start infighting and bitching then the establishment won’t have to worry about us again as we will do their job for them.
@yesindyref2
Yes Scotland completely revamped their website about 6 months out.
The result was an utter mess, you can find comments on here about it at the time, who only knows why they chose to do this. Their website was clumsy and basically unusable. I remembering volunteering that someone from here would sort it for them from free.
It fell on deaf ears, I met Blair Jenkins at a talk in Glenrothes and chatted with him, I liked him and believe others would have too. Why people are pointing fingers at others now is beyond me.
Looking for a scapegoat after the event is for losers unless you look most closely at yourself first and foremost before judging others.
Basically, three groups of people voted No:
The elderly (probably 75% of them). No, they are not so stupid as to believe that they would have lost their pensions. They voted No because they are proud of the British Empire.
The middle class (probably 95% of them). For simple self interest. Apart from occasional donations to charities, they don’t give a damn about the poor in our society.
The working class (probably 30% of them). Either they couldn’t give up their (misplaced) loyalty to Labour or were genuinely frightened by the scare stories. Labour have been very successful in keeping them poor and ignorant.
If all or most of our resources had been spent convincing the third group, we would have won.
If we ever want to win, we absolutely must have a TV channel and a free seven days newspaper which provide unbiased and balanced news, objectively analysed.
Stuart and W O S readers have the talent to provide both of these, if funds can be gathered for setting them up.
@Ian Brotherhood, I think Votadini Jeannie means this for SDA, http://www.scottishdemocraticalliance.com/ . The leader used to occasionally comment on Newsnet. They are(were) I think a right of centre grouping.
Another front page I saw posted in Wings:
http://www.thepaperboy.com/uk/front-pages.cfm
I’m not sure why not being affiliated to Yes Scotland would have stopped the SDA being involved in the campaign. It didn’t stop a lot of other people – Wings for one. Lots of groups just went ahead and did their own thing.
Wealthy Nation were a right wing pro independence group and they were fairly visible. Not the same people as the SDA though. The only time I remember seeing any reference to the SDA in recent years was from one poster on NNS who sometimes praised the group – Upspake or something.
I did wonder what had happened to them. Seems odd to be pro independence and not campaign during the referendum.
Alex Clark
I totally agree about “unless you look most closely at yourself first and foremost before judging others.”
I was doing that even before the 18th as I started to realise that what I was doing or trying to do was no longer important. I also realise now that I should have spent a little less time doing that (research and Herald posting) and taken time to put together a couple of short papers and try my hardest to get them to where they might help.
Pretty sure they’d have been ignored though! I think total lack of meaningful communication and co-ordination in the upper hierarchy might have been a problem.
The real and genuine point of post-mortems though isn’t to attach blame, it’s to work out how to do things better next time. This time was fantastic – from 25-28% apparent support for Independence, to 45% who actually said definite YES and went out to vote YES as well. Big difference even in that original “support” for indy, to actually deciding to go for it. Of the 28%, it could have been as low as 15% who actually bothered. In the end 45% did vote YES. Mostly with hope and smiles. And the turnout was incredible. That in itself is a great achievement, and a hopefully long-lasting one.
@yesindyref2
I read many of your posts on the Herald as Peter Piper and hought they were great. Unfortunately my very first post on that site was moderated and I never had another chance. Personally I’d call that particular episode censorship.
I agree there is no point whatsoever in even attempting to apportion blame, that is ridiculous. We are where we are and anyone with a pair will just get on with it. That includes the ladies because often they might just have a bigger pair.
Looking at you Nana 🙂
I looked for SDA during the campaign, from the beginning, and apart from upspake and two or three quiet posters who never said they were SDA, it was completely missing, whatever they say. Perhaps they took the huff over YES Scotland. Pretty dumb, because as they say, their right of centre is exactly what was, indeed, missing throughout the Indy debate. It was all socialist, and as the Rev found out in that social attitudes survey a year back, Scotland is nowhere near as socialist as just about the whole YES campaign presumed.
Basically speaking there are indeed people who have higher priorities than the ideals of social justice, etc. etc. For some that includes sheer personal surival, and the good of their own family first. They were never included in the YES side debate. They voted NO.
@yesindyref2
Just how do you define a “socialist” then as against a conservative because that is the only name we have for the right wingers.
How do you define anyone? It’s not really possible, use of a single word “socialist” has meant that many people can’t vote for Yes is a disgrace.
How does humanitarians sound, more acceptable I’d guess.
Herald had its rules, and one was don’t attack the journalist, nor the editorial policy. Having said that, they let a fair few comments stay I thought would disappear. One or two of the journos were quite precious, but one or two accepted a whole load of abuse, including David Torrance and surprisingly, Catherine MacLeod. There’s hope for them yet! Most precious I think was Settle, I had a few posts disappear that didn’t break any guidelines at all. He was also behind that article that was indirectly criticised by the SPF.
Curiously Gardham became quite balanced, though most Indy supporters would disagree 🙂 A couple or more of very thoughtful and interesting agenda pieces. I suspect he’s questioning himself over what the Labour party has become, similarly to Kevin McKenna in the Observer. Too late for this referendum, but …….
@thepnr
The way I’d describe myself and have done, is a socialist capitalist!
I guess that means that if I’m prepared to take the risks, put in the many extra hours, have the worries, I want the fruits of my own work and risk, if I succeed.
At the same time I want a security cushion for people who try and fail, and for those who have no real chance in the first place. For those who work and forget work the moment they leave or clock out, they too should get the fruits of their work and contribution, and if they give a little extra, are entitled to get a share of the extra profit or whatever.
Kind of a land of milk and honey 🙂
A bit of an indirect answer to your question.
@yesindyref2
I’d say we’re not that far apart. Work hard and reap the rewards but never forget our overall obligation. That is to all of us.
By the way Thepnr retired, for a reason though 🙂
@yesindyref2 at3.25 a.m.
Sorry, wouldn’t normally butt in to what appears to be a private/public conversation between yourself and Alex, but did you just describe yourself as a “socialist capitalist”?
I’ve been around a bit but that one’s new to me.
Anyway, please ignore – I’m just hanging about, twiddling my thumbs, waiting to see if my post (of two hours ago) on the topic of immigration is going to appear.
(By the way I am 100% in favour of immigration lest you should think otherwise.)
Fat boab (Robert Henderson)
Referendum bias in newspapers examined (article 15th September)
http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4255/David-Patrick-Bought-and-Sold-or-Hype-in-Bold-Newspaper-Framing-of-the-Scottish-Independence-Debate.aspx
Fat boab
Yes, I’ve posted it before elsewhere (probably herald), and raised a few eyebrows. I don’t seem to fit into left, centre or right, I think all of them have some potentially good policies, some bad, though perhaps less bad ones on the left – there’s good policies on the left that just aren’t currently practical, that’s all.
I don’t think I’m particularly neo-liberal though, if I knew what that meant!
It was 60% YES before Brown’s intervention, but the YES campaign is being critised. It was the illegal ‘VOW’ that changed the vote. Just have another Referendum.
No fish please, there’s only two things in the world smelling of fish…and one of them’s fish.
Gary
The Broch
Greg,
that was your best yet,
Brilliant!
BtP says
“I fell off the seat, honestly.”
At half past 6? 🙂
Joe Kane @8.13
What Joe Kane says!
Conan the Librarian says
“Wikipedia on the SNP membership says:
“This page was last modified on 3 October 2014 at 19:24.”
When you hover over the figure of 100.000 it says
“Peter Murrell tweet” received 03/October/2014
Peter murrell (supposedly) has said one hundred thousand
looks like somebodies messing with us!
Thought for the day
Paula-Rose
“Why do some people need a god to do evil?”
Concur.
Morag says
“Yes Scotland was always going to have an uphill struggle. It wasn’t going to need major active sabotage to cause it to fail. Passive, apparently benign incomptence would probably be quite enough.
Now if I can think of that, I should imagine the UK government insiders tasked with stopping Yes at all costs could think of it. It’s not rocket science. More than that, it’s actually DOABLE.
Forget crazy fantasies about swapping ballot papers and think more deviously, guys.”
Now your one of the “UNDEAD” YOUR ONE OF US NOW MORAG, AND WE’LL-NEVER-LET-YOU-GO!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY1-v97Mic
Alex Clarke says
“I understand your point of view but I was trying to highlight the increase in readers not potential activists in the final weeks before the vote. The activists were already here and doing their small bit in their own way.”
What constitutes an activist?
Someone for the first time looks at a blog a comment whatever, on Wings and starts to see the light, and mentions it to one other person, I see that person as an activist even though he/she doesn’t know it.
Chi McGregor says
“The Moody Blues had an apropos hit called “Go Now”, which the chronologically challenged might, in an unguarded moment, admit to remembering.”
I would put that the other way round, the “chronologically challenged” are the ones NOT old enough to remember that, 😉
however my contribution is this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM-y1a1oeCo
for the people who were fooled into doing something against their better interests.
Flower of Scotland says
“All I want to know( it’s not rocket science) Why did nobody in YES! Including the SNP, not come out on TV and produce the McCrone report, or phone ” call Kaye” when Louise White was dismembering the Yes vote! WHY did they not??? You see nobody can answer that! Or Nobody wants to!”
Dear god FoS they did and they did repeatedly but they could scream from the mountaintops but if the media have turned off their mike you hear nothing.
Justin Hayward is MY god
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xMBJ7G7Xy0
OT The stushie has begun in fife
http://www.newsnetscotland.scot/index.php/scottish-news/9806-longannet-under-threat-in-grid-costs-wrangle
Best cartoon so far – hard hitting, sharp; and I didn’t need any guidance from ‘Morag’ to come to that conclusion.
From Thursday evening. Philosopher-King Tommy Sheridan on his green throne, gazing at a model of the globe, and ruminating on political strategy –
Conversation with Tommy Sheridan
http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/CoversationTommySheridan/videos/63766732
Anybody know whitrafek is going on at Newsnet Scot?
They opened their comments to live posting a few days ago; 3 years too late mind you and I registered as myself, not the Panda personna so as not to give them an opportunity to post and I posted a test comment.
I saved all the login details,
I have been trying now for 3 days and each time I try to login, it tells me that my e-mail or password is incorrect.
I ask them to send me my password and get an error message which is an error as follows
SMTP Error! Could not connect to SMTP host.
Are they trying to tell me something, or is there internecine warfare going on at Newsnet Ivory Towers over comments permission?
I feel the same way as I did when I chucked them three years ago.
Shaggy,
our grassroots campaign wasn’t big or strong or good enough to beat their media based campaign.There weren’t enough people putting in enough hours in too many areas.Im no martyr.We won’t win independence til more people want it more badly.I see movement in that direction.We still have momentum.We have made huge progress over the past two years and continue to do so.
Yesindieref2 chunters on: The real and genuine point of post-mortems though isn’t to attach blame, it’s to work out how to do things better next time.
Oh, please, spare us the pious and the obvious.
Anymore of that and I think I will puke.
We were routed at the bridge by the might of the British state and a handful of Trojan Scots bearing false gifts. History repeats itself.
With the passing of time
emotions settle
and with that the mind clears
and intelligent thought and sound judgement
once again become possible.
But there is some evidence to suggest
that across the Yes spectrum
the passing of sufficient time since Indy
has not yet happened –
except for a few.
Meanwhile Westminster and Mr McTernan make hay.
(Rpt)
Dodgy Dave says:
“Let the message go out that with the Conservatives
if you work hard, do the right thing,
we say you should keep more of your own money
to spend as you choose.
That is what our long term economic plan means for you.”
i.e. long term, there will be no welfare; no social services; we’ll be just like the US Republicans.
In other words, in the future,under the Tories,
YOU’LL BE ON YOUR OWN.
Lose your job? find another one.
Fall ill? pay to get better, or die.
This is what No in Indyref means.
It could have been SO SO different.
A BIG THANKS TO ALL 2 MILLION SCOTTISH NO VOTERS.
Kenny: I have to say I’m fair scunnered with 55% of our population. Can you imagine a Tibetan voting against independence?
It’s almost impossible to think of any nation that might decide against governing itself in any situation. In which case, there is only one conclusion – something deep-seated in the soul of Scots condemns them to subservience.
@ Grouse Beater
The spirit of Gordon Gecko.
@Bugger (the Panda)
You have to click forgot password you will then get an email with a code to reset password, got many Tshirts.
A judge at the Court of Session in Edinburgh said
the case for imposing a period of disqualification
on Craig Whyte was “overwhelming”.
Lord Tyre said: “He deliberately placed his own interests before those of the company.”
I wonder if the Lord Tyre would pass the same judgement
on Messrs Darling, Brown & Co. ( exchanging ‘company’ with ‘country’.)
I doubt it somehow.
Same Club.
BtP says: The spirit of Gordon Gecko.
Aye, you might have something there – an irrational worry over losing material possession, status, lowered lifestyle … the poor and the struggling in Glasgow and Dundee have no such concerns other than plain survival, hence they vote for a Scotland that serves them better.
BBC Scotland this morning, listened to Alec Johnston speaking about the poll tax, a nice reminder of how vile and toxic the tories are. Hope he gets plenty more air time.
Grouse Beater says:
“It’s almost impossible to think of any nation that might decide against governing itself in any situation. In which case, there is only one conclusion – something deep-seated in the soul of Scots condemns them to subservience.”
My personal opinion is that being Scottish first, seeing Scotland as your one and only nation, is not universal. It’s a spectrum from your average Winger at one end through to a died in the wool BritNat at the other.
I am wary of drawing parallels with Ireland for obvious reasons. However, in say 1912, the idea that those living on the island of Ireland were a nation apart who should rule themselves, was probably a minority view. Even in 1921 Ireland was granted Free State status and not the fully independent republic a minority wished for.
I think Scotland is undergoing a similar journey. Hopefully ours remains peaceful!
Two years ago we were split rough in three. Those who wanted full independence, those who wanted Devo Max / Home Rule, and BritNats. The campaign saw the middle group swing to Yes, then back again when their wishes appeared to be on offer.
Scotland has been so integrated with the rest of the UK for so long and many Scots are uneasy about the jump to self determination. I don’t think it’s subservience, I think it’s just that enough in the middle ground aren’t quite willing to take what they see as risks. Enough said they were willing at one point, but the ‘safety net’ of a Devo Max / Home Rule offer just dragged them back.
Next time, hopefully in about 3 years, the Devo Max / Home Rule people will realise they will never get it. And also, the whole idea of being Better Together will have been blown away. The Unionists then have nothing to offer, the middle ground will move to support Independence.
I’m optimistic 🙂
CH
That is when I get the ERROR message.
Yesindyref2 says:
4 October, 2014 at 2:35 am
The real and genuine point of post-mortems though isn’t to attach blame, it’s to work out how to do things better next time. This time was fantastic – from 25-28% apparent support for Independence, to 45% who actually said definite YES and went out to vote YES as well. Big difference even in that original “support” for indy, to actually deciding to go for it. Of the 28%, it could have been as low as 15% who actually bothered. In the end 45% did vote YES. Mostly with hope and smiles. And the turnout was incredible. That in itself is a great achievement, and a hopefully long-lasting one.
Indeed. Forget the blame game, forget the conspiracy theories. Forget the pensioners. The fact is that Scotland on the 18th September was not ready for independence. But you know what? Scotland is now nearer to independence than it has been for 300 years.
We really need to harden the 45% before moving on. Reach, gain, consolidate then adavance again when the time is right.
CH
addendum
After I submit the form for a new password.
Sorry for any confusion.
Just when life was becoming intolerably boring…the Lib Dems are having their conference!
Yeeee-ha!
Isabel Fraser, a few seconds ago, to Danny Alexander –
‘At 8% in the polls, what possible relevance can you have?’
@Bugger (the Panda) :
SMTP Error! Could not connect to SMTP host.
This means that the front-end cannot connect with the server responsible for the mail exchange
Gosh, too much to catch up with…
What beat YES was the gutter politics of the US system. Stop vilifying Blair Jenkins. We were beat by 100% propaganda from the BBC, press, lying politicians who set about ignoring the purdah period, terrifying vulnerable old people and the chronically un-aware, and then and only then came the solid NO vote fraternity.
That position is now cemented and these disgraceful but now proven tactics will be used for ever-more to keep the UK as it is – deeply immersed in dirt-poor morality and execrable ethics.
We must be ready to trump the up-coming implosion of English Votes for English matters and declare the UK Union of Parliaments as being no more with the complete ending of this arrangement.
Hooray for Greg Moodie 🙂
Well, that was good then. So some of us agree, or most of us agree, but some of us disagree that Yes Scotland was good, bad could have done better, and Blair Jenkins was terrible/good/wouldn’t hurt a fly/was an establishment plant/could have done better.
And those 55% are bad/misguided/needing hugged.
And it was the big bad media wot done it to us, and the might of the British state establishment.
Well done, that really is progress, feel much better now.
What a terrible wast of time and effort.
Is wings formulating any ideas for input to Bob Smith’s convention, it seems to be well weighted toward Unionist parties?
IMO we lost because many scots have a comfortable life and did not want to risk losing it, simple as! Also fronting the likes of T. Sheridan, while I agree with some of his aguements, was a real turn off for many of these centre right new labour voters.
@BtP
The login system seemed to change a few days ago as I had to enter my details rather than just one click. Different people seem to be having probs with different sites as I have probs with Blogger.
Call Kaye
“Alex from Strichen”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p027v2p8
A NO vote is still hard to accept for many of us, it is one of those feelings that is so deep inside your gut that it is an actual physical feeling.
There is no getting away from it, this was one almighty boot in the chuckies that we all took.
I have lost all respect for those diehard NO voters, who have chained me to Westminster for THEIR own selfish reasons.
One chink of light to come out of the NO vote is that we are now battle hardened campaigners and we wont be so naive in the next campaign.
One thing I think we need as a priority to keep that sense of unity, is a new logo.
“YES ALIANCE”,
this logo is along the lines of the “YES” logo and is eye catching.
Surely someone could start getting these made up as car stickers, window posters, badges etc…
Once the Yes Alliance is up and running, then we start the serious stuff of going after these Unionist Westminster MPs at the 2015 GE.
Good stuff Greig.
O/T, just cancelled my Virgin gym membership. One less openly Union-supporting business getting no cash from me.
I’ve been thinking about all these petitions flying around and how ultimately, they don’t really mean much. Which got me thinking, could we take any unanswered questions and put them on the No.10 site where they should actually be doing something about petitions that come in?
For example, could we petition No.10 to go to the EU and ask whether an iScotland would be admitted using article 48 or 49?
@ Caz M.
You’re right about the Yes Alliance.
I’ve got a “Next Time” sticker made up and placed it in front of my Yes sticker on the car. So it now reads
“Next time Yes”
We’re not going away.
But we can’t sit around doing nothing but chewing the fat either.
@cynicalHighlander:
that is not alarming per se. It generally means that the local cookie in which your login data is stored has expired or is not recognized anymore. It can happen anytime, for example when the CMS is updated.
But the error message BtP got clearly indicates blatant misconfiguration.
o/t
From the BBC website
“Lord Smith has also asked members of the public to contribute their views on strengthening Holyrood’s powers before the deadline of 31 October, using the e-mail address haveyoursay@smith-commission.scot”
If this hasn’t been mentioned already it might be an idea for some of the tens of thousands of new party members to send an email stating we expect full fiscal autonomy with foreign affairs and defence reserved to Westminster. Worth making it as clear as possible there is a mass of the electorate unwilling to settle for token powers
I think this artist is making a great contribution to the cause.
An accurate commentary on the process to date.
I woke up with one strong thought during the night. One word, schiltron, in my head.
For the last few days there have been the comments from a post rolling around in my head.
Basically the writer was pointing out how Yes failed to connect the idea that independent Scotland would be a safe bet for those here who like their two holidays a year to Tenerife and who like their new car every 2 years, thanks very much. These folk are permitted to get on with their lives which is fair enough. We all know these folk, often self – made and usually hard working tax paying people. Not too much time to get uncomfortably politicised or sometimes even listen to the news, too busy making their way. Fair enough.
The accent on social justice in the campaign didn’t attract these people in the way that possible reassurances that life would be better for ALL might have.
That is, that you would still have all your good stuff and more.
A neighbour visited a neighbour recently, a no voter and southerner who lives in Scotland. Relieved with the result and some how mystified by Scots wanting to distance themselves from the union. That person left the house rattled by facts that they had never considered, courtesy of the WEB and shocking stories of how cuts to education in the ’70s left state schools without school trips and activities, that didn’t impact on the private system.
What was more disturbing/enlightening was the new idea that they had left England for a better life, that their kids could avail of the better schools and teaching and general environment, and that now the locals were saying things that may be not nice.
I have no issue with multi cultural society, having lived in places like this for years. However many come north to escape this changing Britain and find somewhere ‘ better’ to bring up their families. Almost like it’s become too noisy in the courtyard let’s go into the garden.
Scotland is not some extension of England, it has it’s own culture, ways of being and even though some would like to forget it, a language.
Perhaps it’s inappropriate for the many who live here to just assume that things are exactly the same here as they are else where.
When will her Majesty visit Glasgow next?
If Balmoral is owned by a Jersey company is it still part of Scotland?
The Schiltron.
Each of us who want independence need to band together in small groups with our facts pointed outwards. Piercing the hardened ideas of those who are now coming out to explain how horrified they were by Yes. Informing at every instance that Yes is correct. That Scotland is wanting to exploit its own assets for the benefit of its own people. Not to fight wars and reject rights.
No voters should not be allowed to slip back to what went before.
What once was ‘fair enough’ is not the case any more, because it never was fair to begin with.
Gordzilla cares not for Scotland. He is only raging because he knows that the Labour Party are now firmly stuck in a constitutional trap of his making. Deep in the brown stuff and sinking fast.
ROAR!!!!!!
@Balaaargh
For example, could we petition No.10 to go to the EU and ask whether an iScotland would be admitted using article 48 or 49?
Would be very surprising.
The commission is really mad at Apple these days…
cynical lowlander 9.28am
“Is wings formulating any ideas for input to Bob Smith’s convention, it seems to be well weighted toward Unionist parties?”
What a powerful input we could contribute to Mr Smith’s convention if we could get the “Heads” of Wings, Bella and Newsnet Scotland to represent the “People”, working along with the Scottish Government, we could push for full Devo-Max.
cynical lowlander says:
“Is wings formulating any ideas for input to Bob Smith’s convention, it seems to be well weighted toward Unionist parties?”
They offered DevoMax / Home Rule and swung the referendum. Surely there is only one idea? Now they deliver what in most Scot’s minds, Yes and No supporters, was offered – everything but defence and foreign affair.
OK, they are all now back pedaling furiously. Should we be surprised? They lied about everything else.
However, I think they should be hounded relentlessly to either deliver …. or be seen as the deceiting scumbags some of us knew they always were.
OK – we’ve had a fortnight of navel-gazing. The Tories and the other Tories under the “Labour” banner have moved-on. Have we?
EVEL – English votes for English Laws is now the main game; the Blue Tories see this as good for them, the Red Tories see it as bad for them. They’re already prepared to forget about the Jock: “Those silly Sweaties bought the lies and we can put them back in the box and ignore them for a while”, is the watchword.
Aye right.
Since the future make-up of Westminster is going to be the main plank on the domestic political agenda for a time, maybe we in the Yes camp should be looking to forge alliances in England.
While I WANT independence – I doubt if Westminster will give it to us before they have wrung the last drop of oil out of Scottish waters. So, we have to fight for it through gaining greater powers, bit by bit, until it makes sense for them to let us go.
The big mistake Tony B Liar made when he agreed to Donald Dewar’s plan for a Scottish Parliament, was, he left England with a democratic deficit – which is only now being addressed.
The Yes side should be seeking areas of common ground with such groups as the Campaign for an English Parliament, as a means of us getting closer to the point when it makes sense for Westminster to let us go.
I could live with a federal UK as a stepping stone towards independence for Scotland, but, for this to work – we need friends in England.
Thanks for spotting that, John. Someone is trying to justify their mistaken twitter orgasm of yesterday by editing 100,000 into Wikipedia, despite the reference actually stating 76,688.
There was a stupid mistake being obsessively tweeted yesterday claiming over 100,000 and citing Peter Murrell. This was calculated by adding the 26,000 or so applications he had noted as awaiting processing into his previous total of just over 75,000, but that total already included the pending paperwork. So the 26,000 were being double counted.
Just before ten in the evening Peter tweeted again, saying the work was almost done and the current total now stood at 76,686. I went to the Wikipedia page then and edited in the new number (it had until then correctly stated the 75,000-odd figure, though the reference hadn’t been updated to match), and I also updated the citation link to the new tweet.
It looks as if there has been a minor edit war since then, with someone changing the number to 100,000 and someone else changing it back – several times. I only just noticed that the number is in the text of the first paragraph as well as in the sidebar.
I’ve just fixed it again, but with this open editing policy the idiot who’s trying to defend 100,000 could carry on ad infinitum.
Off topic but serious post . . .
What / who is the Butterfly Rebellion?
An ‘instant grassroots’ organisation.
We were rightly suspicious when the likes of VNB sprang up fully formed.
I want to believe in it – it’s a nice idea. But the organisers are remaining steadfastly anonymous.
Yes Shetland have decried them – and we all trusted them.
If it is real it is too good an idea to ignore – but we need some comment from more trusted sources. I would like to hear what Wings has to say . . . Stu is no.1 for holding the media to account, and perhaps some of our ‘friends’ need watching as closely as our traditional enemies.
I would like to see Wings give the BR a good looking at . . . And hopefully a clean bill of health?
That’s a great cartoon BTW!. Sorry if I vent my frustrations here on Wings, but you guys are good at setting us back on the right roads.
Of course I do think that 45% of the vote is a great achievement and I wouldn’t have believed we could get that, at the beginning of the year.
I’m now looking forward to our own Scottish Independent TV and Radio. I do think people will enjoy it and it will build up confidence.
The good news is that there is still a lot of Indy sites on Facebook with lots of comments. People are impatient for change and especially for the VOW to be implemented.
What a pity the ref vote could not have been on the same day as the GE vote if only to see Labour implode trying to say the UK is perfect and that it’s completely broken all at the same time.
“Seems odd to be pro independence and not campaign during the referendum.”
Someone called James Trolland stood for the SDA at last year’s Govan ward by-election. He amassed the grand total of ONE vote (presumably his own). I don’t think campaigning is their strongest suit.
Snode1965 9.28am
“Also fronting the likes of T. Sheridan, while I agree with some of his arguments, was a real turn off for many of these centre right new labour voters.”
Tommy Sheridan was so much of a “turn off” that he had to hold TWO meetings wherever he went. One for those inside the hall and one for those outside the hall, who couldn’t get inside because the hall was full of like minded supporters of Scottish Independence.
And they were not all left wing SSP card carriers.
He must have been doing something right.
Socrates MacSporran says:
“EVEL – English votes for English Laws”
This can only be accompanied with Scottish FFA.
Scotland pays more tax per head than England. In the present set up, or some DevoWeeBitMore, our excess money is being spent in England. If EVEL were introduced then there would be a Taxation without Representation situation. English MPs would be voting to spend Scottish money.
If they are spending our money, then our MPs need to be involved. They won’t like that, of course. The solution is FFA for Scotland.
https://www.smith-commission.scot/contact/
As a small business owner, I have just taken the opportunity to spell out what I would expect from the Commission.
It was short and sweet and consisted of three letters.
FFA.
There is something we can do
Next time someone talks of vote rigging, ask him if he wants to be an polling agent, we didn’t have enough people to stand outside every polling booth and to place our own security tags on the boxes. If you know yes voters, approach them and ask if they will be willing to leaflet and or canvass. Get their email address and make sure it is added to the local activists list.
2 years ago, it took 3 months to distribute the 1 st yes news paper, the last, the kirsty one took 5 days
There were and still are many strands to yes, I don’t know what the next branding or manifesto will be, I’ve seen some excellent ideas here, and some not so good. But for all the flag waving, it is at the ballot box in May where we will win and lose, if we can wipe all unionists out of Scotland then we will move forward, if not, this movement will die.
https://archive.today/9NE7t CiF’s interesting too,
xylophonetermite
03 October 2014 7:25pm
Recommend
219
Life isn’t perfect here in the UK, but I’m lucky that I don’t have to put up with shit like that.
BWhale xylophonetermite
03 October 2014 7:44pm
Recommend
106
It is a lot more sophisticated here.
Not to say it is worse. I would much rather be facing the British police than Chinese of course. But it is still much more sophisticated. Surveillance, fear, disruption, infiltration, and when that doesn;t work the old Bill will still crack skulls. They just try and politically intervene prior to that.
It is still equally damaging for democracy, just less explicitly violence
cynical lowlander 9.43am
“I’ve got a “Next Time” sticker made up and placed it in front of my Yes sticker on the car. So it now reads”,
“Next time Yes”
That is exactly the point I have been trying to make since the 19th of September. We don’t want individual logos popping up from town to town.
We need UNITY and we need it fast. There is nothing better for getting people to rally under the one flag than a good logo.
“YES ALLIANCE”
It’s short, eye catching and we can all relate to it.
Public meeting during campaign.
Audience member to Jim Sillars,” jim what would you say to
right leaning scots regarding independence.”
Jim Sillars answer ” I have nothing to say to those people.”
Um.. Scotland is not and never has been a socialist
country, please take note Tommy sheridan fans.
How about a democracy first folks,i want to live among
human beings,not socialists,communists,or capitalists.
I am not attacking tommy or jims beliefs,but the question
of (should Scotland be an independent country)only had
one sane answer YES…..we had all the arguments for
those bamboozled enough to need them.
Individuals religeous beliefs were not required.
Number one reason why YES lost,long ago too many scots
turned thier belief in the labour party into a religeon.
They gave power over thier lives to charlatans.There is
no labour party.
The referendum is the proof that there is no such thing
as the united kingdom.
But once again scots have given power over thier lives,
and ours to charlatans.
Like i tried to say before this site and many others did
a fantastic job of getting through to the bamboozled,
but we did not reach enough of them,so, much still to
do.
We are not far away.
As for Blair Jenkins i think he did all he could,he
looked utterly exhausted by the end and i thank him
for his efforts.
Sorry this was so long folks.
FFA
Agreed
I have never believed the gers figures which are based on the ONS figures, we don’t even know how they are calculated. Even if they are correct, then having and using these powers will be an illustration that Scotland can afford to go it alone, the no voters will no longer be able to say that the economic argument has not been made
@caz-m
Horses for course.
Tommy, Jim Sillars, the RIC, and LfI all have legitimate positions and a constituency out there waiting to be convinced of their message.
WE had Buswiness for Indi and Women for Indie but no Wrinklies for Indie, no “Frightened of nationalisation for `Indie.
We could go on and on.
We cannot be one homogenous Big Tent with one big message. That is sad but we need to note and address the fears of each and every group, including the already Yes, because we don’t know what that establishment snake is plotting now. They know that this isn’t over.
I just wish we could all sit down, 1.6 million of us and the 2 Million Nos and chew the fat.
We need a lot more data on the various mindsets of the various groups of voters in Scotland.
Incidentally, my takings on why Dundee and Glasgow voted Yes was that the RIC got the votes out and in doing so negated the quiet No voters who were hiding in the shadow but willing to vote by post. The ones turned off by the hope and fervour of the Yes flash mobs. The Ebenezer Scrooges, the “That’ll learn them Grannies and the smug ones whose mindset is “I’m alright so fuck you.”
Lots of different messages and lots of different target groups.
We need a nerve centre to ensure that the right message goes to the right group because if we get Wee Tommy telling the Bearsden and Morningside Matrons how it is, they will just shut down, say nothing and vote silently No.
I wonder if the SNP alone has that ability for co-ordinate all that, or do we need a real overarching Indie management core moving the chess pieces around?
morag
the answers are in how british imperialism operates.
how it gains and keeps it’s power.
empire building, by creating dependency on our rulers.
jim sillars spoke of it, as did tommy sheridain.
i recently saw the whole methodology of subjugation domination of india summed up in one paragraph, but of course i can’t find it.
they use shock and awe tactics.
that is what beat us, also deep down why we know we are right and that we have not really lost.
cameron is terrified of the queen, it’s like a stockholm syndrome, that’s what we are up against.
victorian britain, where the masses must feed their masters.
their was no power vacuum in the new scottish constitutional setup, but the opponents of it acted as if there was or would have been.
imperialism is always about dominating resources.
@ caz-m I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I didn’t vote for NO. We have to find a way of making independence attractive to the new labour centre right block. Sadly they are so wrapt up in Thatcherism , that it might take tracking under all of their homes to change their attitude. 🙂
I think I know where you are coming from cat-m
We had a branding, a goal and a logo. YES
We had various booster groups, LFI, Wings, WFI, BFS, who were disparate, independent, grass roots and individual in pursuing that goal, this was a strength, not a weakness and trying to control or dictate to them would have been a mistake. Blair Jenkins was correct to not even try
We had established political parties pursuing that same goal
Question, where to from here?
Poor Greg! He couldn’t post here when the cartoon went up because he’d never posted before so his username had never been approved. It was after eleven before Stu noticed and approved him.
I don’t think he’s commented at all, because we’d all dragged the thing so far off topic before he got the chance!
We avoided using the snp logo, mainly because it was a ploy of bt to accuse everyone who voted yes of being a nat.
We can shout all we want about FFA, but it is only through the ballot box and voting snp can we hold their feet to the fire
How do we now hold the movement together and united behind a cause when the message now is vote SNP?
Care to answer that Ian brotherhood
@jock mc X
I tend to agree with what you say.
One point though. The Left/Labour areas delivered a Yes. SNP areas often delivered a No. Sheridan & Sillars will, in part, have delivered that Yes. Did they put people elsewhere off? Or, was there simply insufficient effort put in outside the heavily targetted Left/Labour areas?
I don’t know the answers. But we need to know them for the next time!
Brilliant.
But why does Nick Robinson still have a job?
I wonder if the SNP alone has that ability for co-ordinate all that, or do we need a real overarching Indie management core moving the chess pieces around?
It will no longer be a grass movement then, a futile lesson in hoarding cats
When delivering leaflets, if the house had solar panels, I put green literature through the door
Along with the yes, When delivering in auchtermuchty, I put lfi and SSP literature through the door with the yes.
Next time I’m in falkland leafleting, you can be certain that I will have some really scary anti fracking, FO ming Campbell, literature to put through the door with the SNP candidate literature for the general election
Lots last night about Yes Official and is Blair Jenkins a Lizard Person etc…
The strategy to build grassroots was very effective. Anyone who has worked in a political office will tell you that the wheels grind slowly, everything goes through the filters of party policy, responses must await authority then press release etc. The problems being attributed to Yes Official are true of all campaigns, this is not unique to Yes Official, if you compare Yes to the No campaign we were Gold Standard.
Fear official was a dud, Dougie Alexander was already in Camerons dungeon having thumbscrews applied – Where are your thousands of activists on the ground Dougie. They hired Blue State Digital (Team Obama), professional astroturfers of varying hues Noborders Ukok, backed by a relentlessly biased state broadcaster and press (bound by common interest). Even against this mighty force we were still gaining momentum.
The No’s abject failure resulted in Cameron stepping in, calling in the financial institutions he represents, from bookies to bent banks, threatening ‘The Great Depression’. Then ‘he’ promising more powers, and the Troika Vow, offering ‘Lets call it Devo Max’, Devo Max the relentless narrative.
A ‘get out of jail free card’ for anyone thinking of voting with their heart, taking possibly 14% of the Yes vote, inducing voter apathy in others. This is what it took to win it. We did not lose under our own steam, we were eventually crushed by the full mechanism of he British State.
There is much we have learned, we defeated No on the ground, we ran rings around their shills and won the cyber battle, each one of us has learned the skills of activism the hard way, we know how to organise, research, publish, act as one.
Yes movement is more alive than ever, the component parts are organising working out forward strategy. An important strategic way-point is coming up soon, Yes in whatever incarnation will be there. We should all be thinking about this, getting with the statistics and logistics, thinking about what we personally can do each day to progress our campaign. We need to focus, we will be/are up against serious attempts to divide us, the current disinformation tactic is part of this, be very aware, and keep going, and if not yet, sign up join up or roll your own, donate money if you have it and skills if you don’t.
Whwn it comes to Westminster and FPTP I don’t think there is any point in splitting the pro Yes vote, unless say the Greens have a winnable seat in Edinburgh. When it comes to Holyrood list seats then people should back their favoured parties. It would be good to see SSP and Green MSPs represent their many supporters and if the SNP do well in the constituency vote they will be limited to the number of list seats they can have, filling those list places with Yes supporting MSPs will keep out the No parties.
It will require a bit of tactical thinking but it can be done.
@ Schroedinger’s Cat
Wot about Freuchie?
Hear hear ilyana
The yes literature and broadcasts were believed to be first clas by the America guru on the bbc referendum campaign, the no stuff was a gift, doggie Alexander was responsible for the patronizing BT lady
I’m not sure who the people on here think would have done better or different, they are content to rubbish Blair Jenkins but then immediately forget to mention this Martin Luther king who would be replacing him
Freuchie, was a tough one, FFarmers FI, we organized iavan McKee from BFS to give the town hall lecture, you don’t really think we would be stupid enough to ask tommy to give a lecture in freuchie?
But the anti fracking vote snp for FFA, they will eat that up, that you can be assured off
Love tommy by the way, hope he makes it onto the list in 2016, but in freuchie btp! we were playing to win
@ Schrödinger’s cat
Should have been there in Freuchie but I was banned.
I was told that Strath was poretty solidly Naw.
‘Muchty is a weird one. An area of high drug usage as are several areas of Cupar.
We were promised Devo Max, Home Rule, or Federalism. That swung the vote back to NO. The paltry offers of Devo Nano Maybe had already been rejected when the YES vote became the majority 2 weeks before the 18th Sept. That’s what prompted the panic promises in the final two weeks, breaking the Edinburgh Agreement.
Lord Smith has to put forward Devo Max as a MINIMUM. I feel the vote should have been declared null and void with the breaking of the agreement.
Perhaps David Cameron is unaware that Scots contract law is different to English law. A verbal offer is binding.
Panda and Cat,I wonder if the fact that both Auchermuchty and Cupar are very agricultural had more than a little to do with it given the attitude of Landowners. I would think that many would have been terrified out of their tiny minds with losing jobs. Why I don’t know, you can move your business but not the land you are working.
Scots, well we have to stop calling ourselves “The Brave” mair like the “Feart”.
I am suddenly still stateless, or I will be if asked when out of the country. The 55% gave my country up.
Blair Jenkings.
If i remember right, the point of the YES campaign was to stay positive and squeeky clean. There was a few who wanted to see the YES side show more balls but the majority, me included ,thought that because of the nasty way YES voters were painted eg. Natzi’s and separatists, the YES campaign could distance itself from the “noisy stuff as Wings , Bella etc got stuck into and debunked all their guff
I had a few problems with YES Scotland but believe that they gave the grass roots movement a “banner ” to gather around. I think it worked too.
But too many of our old folk where left in the dark. Pensioners and very poor with no access to anything but MSM were subjected to a pile of scare story’s and they now see that They have duped. We should remember that and concentrate on these targets. We are the converted and most never go back once they know the truth.
But too many never got the message until it was way too lat.
We need to organise for a GE. This means targeting seats and in particular Labour who did most of the scaring.
Once Labour seats are taken the SNP/Greens and SSP can go for the SE seats and this will have eneough diversity to cover most voters. But we need organising fast.
I say get behind the SNP for the GE.
Explain to folk that they have kept the hardships that rUK suffer at arms length by feezing council tax and free prescriptions etc.
We can see what the others offer and as all are Austerity bound , we can give an option and SNP policies to back up what we say.
IT’s past referendum time and we need to get political now getting as many indi MP’s in to Westmidden as possible.
Sorry for going on. We have to change our tactics a little now. And not be so cheery and positive.
Start shouting that their vote will cost them their bus passes and NHS.
Scare the switherers with their own fears.
They sold my country to England and need to know that .
I hate the feckers more and more each day but we have to work with them to gain anything now.
Capella, who is going to tell them. I have not seen anyone though someone said that the Celtic League were going to speak to the United Nations but I have seen nothing more on that.
We are far to submissive here in Scotland.
YESGUY, I am with you and we have to get behind one party and that would appear to be the SNP, because none of the rest stand a chance. Not happy with the way the polls are going there, people going back to tribalism. For goodness sake folks Labour sold you out for their mess of potage, they are the Tories mark 2, in fact I think they could out Tory the Tories.
As for the 55%, it is hard not to hate them. The terrified could have calmed their fears if they had looked over the border a few times. There was worst to come over there than an Independent Scotland.
Nef is pretty wierd full stop, each town and village is completely unique, I found ultra left wingers voting no and landed gentry voting yes,
The strath descended into a balloon bursting exercise in the final week, during the day, everyone put up signs, then during the night they all went out and distroyed the oppositions, lol
It was a tad ridiculous, at the polling station at gate side, I had to take down a 3x3m no sign, on the orders of the election agent for the region, but when I was away in the strath, Ming Campbell himself put it back up, I returned with my measuring tape and the no guy cut the sign down to the legally permited 3x3ft size. You couldn’t make it up
I travelled over 350 miles on the day itself,
@Balaaargh:
One more proof that Apple support NO. This page from the Mac Apple Store:
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s522/sh/e709afbe-d7a3-45d4-ba1e-61e2268ebb05/c49f56f277fc6c6e560df4ed296d1248
ScotIndyPod 96 – Colin Fox
For the first Scottish Independence Podcast interview after the referendum, I spoke with former MSP, national co-spokesperson for the Scottish Socialist Party and member of the Yes Campaign, Colin Fox.
@ Helena Brown
Muchty is seriously weird.
I had a friend in the Police in uniform who stopped me, in my car as I passed through ‘muchty.
He said that the had been an escape at the secure unit at Stratheden Hospital in Cupar.
He told me that their only chance of finding them was before they got into ‘muchty and blended in. After that it was impossible.
stuckinoz said at 0952am
From the BBC website
“Lord Smith has also asked members of the public to contribute their views on strengthening Holyrood’s powers before the deadline of 31 October, using the e-mail address haveyoursay [at] smith-commission [dot] scot”
If this hasn’t been mentioned already it might be an idea for some of the tens of thousands of new party members to send an email stating we expect full fiscal autonomy with foreign affairs and defence reserved to Westminster. Worth making it as clear as possible there is a mass of the electorate unwilling to settle for token powers.
THIS IS OUR CHANCE TO HAVE A DIRECT SAY IN NEW POWERS. PLEASE DO SO 🙂
Seriously, make sure you get this passed on, if you are on twitter or that facebook malarkey. Make you case for devo max – whatever you want. For the record, Devo max is nothing short of ALL powers to Scotland, save defence and foreign affairs. Remember, when the original parliament legislation was drawn up, it did not specify which powers were devolved to Scotland, it specified which powers were not. Work on that basis, so all powers are devolved apart from foreign affairs and defence. In addition, the Scottish parliament MUST have control over its own destiny going forward. Meaning, Westminster may no longer say what the powers of the Scottish parliament are or are not.
The relevant link, is;
https://www.smith-commission.scot/news/say-submitting-ideas-views-proposals-commission-03-october-2014/
No-one got anything to say about the Butterfly Rebellion ?
I didn’t have an issue with Jenkins. He was the non-political administrator of Yes just as McDougall was for No. We had plenty of fire in Nicola, Patrick, Alex, Dennis never mind Jim Sillars, Tommy, Colin Fox and Allan Grogan (the latter an excellent speaker). When it came to head to head debates we invariably won these and won the audience over.
Yes material was a little bland (the No side’s frequently shot themselves in the feet) but other than that I don’t really have any complaints.
We lost because we were up against all the media including the TV, Business and Financial leaders lying through their teeth about the impact of independence, workers being threatened regarding their jobs and rural people worried about the EU shutting off markets. We faced a Union…a Union of vested international interests. That we took them all the way and that in the end they had to offer bribes and promises (most of which I think will come to naught) to secure their win suggests that we had a good campaign.
If the postal votes were as heavily No as people say then on the day the vote was close to 50/50 and we won in a lot more than just 4 council regions. We narrowed that gap to nothing in the last two weeks and the polls were right and Cameron and Co were right to keech themselves.
Ah Alex from Peterhead reminds me of the story about Wullie Reid, forgives if you’ve heard it before..
Wullie died and his widow phoned up the local paper to put an obituary in..
‘I’d like to put an obituary in the paper for my lovin husband Wullie how much is it son?’.
The boy at the paper told her it would be twenty pounds and she said ‘whit! have you no got onythin cheaper son?’
Well we can do deals for fifteen or ten pounds, she says ‘Whit!, whit’s yer cheapest deal?’
‘Well Mrs Reid we can do a deal on 7 words for a fiver so you could have William Reid of Peterhead, passed away peacefully’
‘Aye that’ll dae son I’ll have six words for a fiver’
The obituary read….
Wullie Reid, Peterheid, Deid, Volvo for sale!
Completely agree YESGUY
I have been wondering how to keep our local yes group together, with all the diverse opinions within it when our message is now vote snp,
I have an idea,
The SSP and the Greens don’t really compete in the GE, their natural home is the Holyrood elections in particularly the list seats
If they got their fingers out and chose their candidates for the 2016HE, we could deliver these at the same time. It would get their candidates exposure and they would have access to the delivery system of leaflets. This might help to keep our local yes group together.
The real problem is not the political parties, it is groups like BFS, WFI,the cyber acts and indeed this blog site? Are you all happy to become a booster club for the snp? Because we can no longer avoid mentioning them
Just listening to First Minister phone in to GMS yesterday.
Kay(+E) says Jim Gifford has just phoned back. When asked by Kay(+E)if he’d heard what FM had said. Jim Gifford says no I’ve only just come on the phone. Me thinks BBC phoned Mr Gifford rather than him phoning back to see what they could stir up.
Well said YES GUY Time to get on to the attack, Labour equals, no bus passes, Council Tax doubling every five years, pay for Doctors and other welfare services, Do away with the something for nothing society even though you spent your working lives paying into it. Labour are only interested in feathering their own nests. The next few Honours lists will be worth the watching.
10 days to save the union, actually should have read 10 days to save the british empire.
they expect the disenfranchised to be willing to prop up the deluded, save “britishness” and save the remnants of the british empire.
call me a nationalist if they like, but in return i’ll call them what they are, imperialists.
Btp, ha haha
That’s why muchty never votes ukip, they don’t mind foriegn in comers , they don’t want their children marrying each other,
Helena, re the farmers, we discussed this at a yes group meeting, but the reality is that even in traditional farming areas like cupar, the number of people now employed in farming is vanishingly small, they were replaced by huge tractors years ago. Most wouldn’t know about the EU uplift, the actual landowners did, which is why so many voted yes, but they make up a very small proportion of the population. Throughout this campaign, my own notions of the stereotypical yes and no supporters has been broken on my occassions
DATELINE LONDON.
,
Steve Richards, THE INDEPENDENT. ” The farthest thing from Dave Cameron’s mind now that the referendum is over, Scotland is now irrelevant. ”
Well done the NOs you are now irrelevant the same as the rest of us. THEY HAVE GOT THE OIL TO REBUILD LONDON. YOU ARE NO LONGER REQUIRED.
Robert Louis says:
“The relevant link, is;
https://www.smith-commission.scot/news/say-submitting-ideas-views-proposals-commission-03-october-2014/ ”
At the bottom there are lists of main devolved and reserved powers.
I think that presentation is highly inaccurate! By far most taxation is actually, and will be in the Scotland Act 2012, reserved to Westminster. That isn’t made clear enough!
Is this an attempt to say DevoPostAct2012 has significant powers? It doesn’t!
I smell shite already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlander_%28TV_series%29
Outlander TV series shown recently on NZTV
Bro living in NZ says if it had been shown in Scotland pre Indy, it would have been pivotal.
.
Another insight into media control by UK Gov/BBC.
@ Schrödinger’s cat
I am trying to get in touch with YES group out my way but they seem to have packed in. That’s a shame. i am desperate to do something and if anyone has plans in the Dalkeith area then i am willing to help in anyway i can.
If Wings and the like do become a voice to support SNP in the GE then i for one would be chuffed. As you say Greens/SSp can look at the SE2016 for seats and they will have they’re supporters, but for the GE we need a political heavyweight and they don’t come much bigger in Scotland than SNP.
The SNP have softened the blows from Westminster and this should be shown to all party supporters.
many here have said the SNp should bring in the cuts to really hammer through what the vote NO has done but i fear this will only lead to apathy and turn off voters. Highlighting the positives and scaring the shit out of them will at least make them think twice in future.
We need the no voters. It makes me feel sick to admit this but we don’t need to be so positive. Show them what their vote has brought in.
Show them the Labour party as the weapon that brought in the cuts. Show Labour for what they are.
Traitors to their own country
("Tractor" - Ed)s to the ideals of a socialist party and
Traitors to their constituents ,
The tory’s and lib/dems (no caps folks) are small fry and will have nothing to offer but more austerity whilst they bump their pay up and hand out tax breaks to the rich.
Showing folk they were wrong but can still fix things might be a better approach.
And a wee ps.
My younger brother , who has nothing to do with politics joined the SNP today. In his own way he feels it’s a wee bit support for me as i have taken the loss of the referendum to heart. I am proud of him. He says he doesn’t know their policies but knows they are a vehicle for more powers to Scotland. And he trusts me more than anyone else.
Lump in my throat.
We can do this folks. But we need to organise and support the SNP next summer.
if my wee brother can do something like join a party then anyone can.
So if your watching Stu. Lets push the SNP boat out for the GE2015.
Lets send Westminster a message.
Bugger (the Panda)
Don’t you think Tommy Sheridan had the passion that was missing from a lot of our YES leaders during the campaign.
I am not a member of the SSP or similar Party, but I could relate to what Tommy was saying. His main message was that this was not a Party Political Campaign. This was about Independence for Scotland and a fairer and more democratic Scotland.
I have never saw Tommy speak in person but he sure would be one guy I would go out of my way to see.
We need more passionate speakers who I would also go out of my way to go and see.
People like,
Dennis Canavan
Ivan McKee
Jeane Freeman
I saw Jim Sillars once and found he got very personal with his hatred of Alex Salmond, this only helped the NO vote.
I agree with others who said that the YES campaign was “too nice”.
We don’t need to turn aggressive, but we definitely need to be more Proactive and not be constantly Reactive.
Get in first with a story, instead on constantly trying rebut a story.
Sounds of an Orange Order band marching through Coatbridge.
It didn’t take too long for Labour’s supporters in the O/O to get some payback for their support.
Response from the Commission regarding tory threat to human rights.
http://www.scottishhumanrights.com/news/latestnews/article/bborehrc
Lol
Gordon brown, go fuck yourself, 11,480
Ha ha ha ha
No one is going to hand Indy to us on a plate.
We have to get into the kitchen
and make it for ourselves.
In the meantime, no more Tunnock’s.
Nor any Empire biscuits either.
Yesguy, as far as I know the Yes shop in Penicuik is still open. Why not pay them a visit?
@Helena Brown
not sure who would be best to take up the issue, perhaps senior SNP with legal training?
But the place to take it would be the Council of Europe. I’ve posted this before because the Scotland UN paper on how the UK was forced to introduce democratic structures for Scotland and Wales is described here
http://www.electricscotland.com/independence/story.pdf
Just to comment further on the SDA (Scottish Democratic Alliance), I wrote to them last week asking where they were during the referendum campaign and indeed if they were still in existence. I’m sure they won’t mind me quoting their reply here as I’m sure they’d have said the same to anyone who contacted them:
“We had no intention to be anonymous though that seems to have been the case. Since we were early on excluded form the yes campaign our message was particularly diluted. Had we been part of the Yes campaign i’m sure we could have been a significant counter to the notion of independence being all about the left. By the time the campaign was in it’s late stages there was really no point in being critical so we kept quiet to a certain extent just to let them get on with it and hoped that they could win it without the centre and right. The result was particularly disappointing for us knowing where we were coming from. I was like watching a train wreck coming and being helpless to do anything to prevent it. We’ll be making a lot of noise now.”
I’m not getting in to the exclusion claim as I don’t know what it’s based on, but I do feel we need to have these guys on board with any Yes Alliance or whatever emerges for the next phase.
P.S. Sorry Greg, for going horrendously off-topic. Love the cartoon, that’s exactly how Broon came across in the campaign. “Little Nicky” too reminds me of David Steel as per Spitting Image – keep it up!
Morag.
That Penicuik YES branch is very hard to get too. i can get to Edinburgh and back before i reached the place. it’s a wee bit out the wrong way for me. I have limited transport.
But anyone nearer would be great . Even Edinburgh.
I will try and call them to see if they have any info.
thanks x
The YES side was not “too nice”
The YES side actually has won because its campaign has left a compelling vision of a better Scotland and that is the really important thing to have survived.
That is why the SNP will have more that 100,000 members by next week and our young folk are on the march.
Thank God we didn’t get sucked onto sinking our positive campaign by contesting the mendacity and vicious aggression of our opponents.
Had we done that we would have lost more heavily as the media would have used our aggression against us.
We should never forget it was not our opponents that beat us,it was the media, but we are a lot wiser now.
Think on this. Does anybody actually believe that Gordon Brown’s last minute intervention made a lot of difference? I don’t.
Was it rather a convenient performance that provided an explanation for a surprising win that our opponents knew they had in the (postal voting) bag
OT
About vote rigging (stay with me Morag????)
Now that we have more time to get organised and are looking for some focus.
It might be worth while looking to put together enough people to monitor the GE vote.
Labour will be fighting for their lives and pretty desperate?
YES Cowal shop in Dunoon is continuing and looking for a bigger premises (and the funding for that).Two huge meeting have been held in Dunoon already. We are not going away
Yesguy, try this number for Yes Penicuik. 07591 648500
They may at least be able to give you another contact.
@Votadini Jeannie says:
I think one other factor in galvanising the Nos to come out and vote was the constant talking of ‘no more Tories’. A lot of Scots are pretty conservative in their views and the painting of an iScotland as a socialist utopia was possibly quite a scary thought for them..
Agreed. I think the campaign should have been more targeted.
What works for working class estates in the central belt, didn’t play well in other areas.
There should have been a far wider variety of billboards and posters, to fit different areas.
In Tory areas, independence should have been painted as a self reliance issue – a traditional Tory value.
About standing on our own 2 feet, and making our own decisions. Direct representation internationally. Business opportunities.
In the North East, there should have been a big campaign comparing Scotland with Norway. How they have the powers to invest their oil wealth to huge success.
All this could have helped, but I think the main reason YES lost in these areas was still the currency question.
If we get a second chance, then we need to have a solid plan. I think going with a Scottish pound pegged to sterling would have helped, rather than have the ‘uncertainty’ on a currency union, which was the number one fear factor.
If the banks were going to set up HQ’s in London to cater for their English customers, then so be it.
That would have actually been a good thing, reducing future risks.
And people are used to changing their money anyway before heading South.
We would have had plenty of time to adjust – not leaving ourselves open to a last week media blitz with all these companies threatening to leave if we couldn’t get a currency zone.
Virtually nobody we talked to had anything to say about the currency and the story that it was a huge factor in the vote is in my opinion a self justifying myth being promoted by the media and the Better Together campaign.
In fact the few people we talked about currency were very aware that we could use the pound if we wanted to and considered Better Together were telling lies on the issue.
Beware of finger pointing and thrashing about trying to find reasons for our defeat which were our fault. The fact is we were beaten by a mendacious media and a coordinated phone campaign into our old and vulnerable folk with dishonest and untrue scare stories about pensions and benefits.
The unionists and their press are now trying to blame the YES defeat on anything other than their lies.
They don’t need our assistance.
grouse beater, having been to the toilet and wishing he hadn’t worn light-coloured pants says We were routed at the bridge by the might of the British state and a handful of Trojan Scots bearing false gifts. History repeats itself.
Which is precisely why it’s a good idea to learn from history, and make sure it doesn’t repeat itself. You can’t learn from history if you don’t analyse your mistakes, their strategy, and next time take pre-emptive action to guard against it.
Military officers study military history to become an officer. We need to do the same.
caz-m
Re Tommy Sheriden
Totally agree but when he has the chance to air his views he can do more harm than good.
Let me explain, Tommy wants to nationalise some things and control the banks and other thing of a left wing agenda.
For some people, particularly older and who came through the 3 day weeks, bodies unburied and general mayhem of the miners’ strike, they see that as a bad time and only Thatcher saved the UK and them.
That could well be the mindset of middle class OAP Scotland?
So, I say, don’t frighten the horses and do what Sky, Microsoft, Google and all the other internet operating businesses do, tailor the message for the individual.
This is just a blue skies idea about segmenting the voters into small groups who need to be reassured on a tailor made basis and not frightened by people they would otherwise not consider listening to?
How we could manage that is the real big challenge.
BtP (AuldA)
newsnetscotland.com has become newsnetscotland.scot recently. They probably haven’t updated their links or programs yet, so they can’t find the mail server. Technically they probably need to update their A or MX records, or possibly their virtual server ones.
I remember seeing the same thing with other websites that change the address / URL. It can also take 24 hours, mores some times, for the world servers to catch up.
.scot is a new high-level domain, so it’s very likely too that the world hasn’t caught up! Including root servers. I’m not going for .scot myself, I’m waiting for the full ISO country code .ab which is free 🙂
@
yesindyref2
I bought citizen.scot
@ YESGUY 4 October, 2014 at 12:11 pm
re contacting Yes Dalkeith-have you tried their Facebook page?
@ BtP 3.38, AGREED!!
BtP
If the SDA weren’t invited or allowed on YES Scotland, that’s a dire mistake. If they’re a significant enough force, they should even have had a board member.
I’d say as much as 30-40% of Scotland is conservative with a small c, so that’s only 60% of the electorate were targetted with socialist policies. In the event, a 75% success rate.
The 40% were never presented with a vision where their preferred party might be elected for their policies, where in a minority government some of their preferred policies could be enacted with agreement – as might happen in the 2016 SE, if Conservatives hold the balance of power – not ruled out by Ruth Davidson for co-operation, same as 2007-11.
That was a neglect I saw throughout the campaign, and posted about at times as well, with some small success as I saw a small few turned from NO to YES at the thought that the Conservatives could very easily increase their representation at Holyrood, freed from the toxic Westminster hard rightness.
@ yesindyref2
Nor was Wings over Scotland on Yes Board and look what we did. In fact it was better that we were not inside the Tent as I gave us a chance to go around pissing in other peoples’ tents.
Agree with you regarding a quiet significant % of conservatives but I have no idea what is the number. Does the SNP know and how many of them are over 65%. Already we have a sub group with perhaps different needs to be addressed.
Scotland was Conservative after WW II and Glasgow had a Progressive and Unionist Party in power for many years. Ted Heath destroyed the party political differences between local and national elections in Scotland. In there, is a wee indicator of the mindset of this demographic set. Shy Tories locally but willing to vote for them in national elections. This time they are shy in UK national elections, less shy in Holyrood and determined in the referendum. They didn’t smile at the polling stations.
I believe it is in the Constitution of the SNP that they cannot form a coalition at Westminster or Holyrood with the Tories. That came out when Cameron finally took 10 Downing Street after Crash Gordon had squatted there trying to stitch up a coalition but he spurned the SNP from the start and Nick Clegg sold his meat to the Tories for a Yorkie Bar and some useless cabinet positions.
As Robert Peffers, I think, said we hold the balance of power but then what? More friggin about and deceit from Westminster?
No we just walk out and let them sort out their mess?
Lets win those seats first – then see.
@yesindyref2 :
Yes, it’s the most probable explanation. But I thought when the ICANN validated a new TLD, the root servers were automatically updated (or at least set up correctly). DNS propagation takes at least 24 hours, depending on the cache policy of each local DNS.
@BtP:
I tried to register saltire.scot, but it’s already taken.
To assuage this huge letdown, I registered buggerthepanda.scot.
Interested?
AuldA
buggerthepanda.scot
thanks but Bugger (the Panda) only has a limited life span. He is a bit like the replicant in Blade Runner. He will soon outlive his genetically programmed lifespan, as will I.
I hope he goes before I do, or I’ll need to arrange for someone else to channel to BtP.
Incidentally I also bought
freescot.land
That is waiting for the near future.
BtP
I’m with Paula on this one, let’s won those seats first, then decide what the strategy is after. With a majority of the Scottish Westminster seats, the sky’s the limit!
With that in mind, perhaps the SDA should be encouraged to stand in high Tory-voting seats to split the Tory vote. There’s also one or two seats leftie candidates have lower chance of winning, Michael Moore’s being one that could turn Tory rather than SNP, and even Dumfries and Galloway.
Danger for the SNP is that it builds the credibility of the SDA and makes them more of a force in the SE2016. Well, even as a new member of the SNP, that’s their problem – Indy is above all!
I may be mistaken, but it was my impression that the SDA was an extremely small group of people who were running a bit of a smoke and mirrors exercise to try to look like a serious political party. They don’t have a recognisable name in their ranks so far as I know.
I got the impression the organsation had something to do with James Wilkie, the retired teacher whose trademark is a claim to have forced the Council of Europe (or one of the other major EU bodies) to force Tony Blair to grant Scotland the 1997 devolution referendum. His claim doesn’t stand up to examination.
However, it’s possible he parted company with the group some time ago, so don’t take my word as gospel. Mainly, I think it’s a very small clique trying to pretend to be much bigger, and that would explain why Yes Scotland wouldn’t be inviting them on to the board or anything like that.
There was a right-wing group which had a reasonably high profile during the referendum campaign – Wealthy Nation, with Michael Fry fronting it. I went to one of their public meetings. My reaction at the end was that it was good that an independent Scotland would provide a democratic platform to all shades of opinion, and they were welcome to stand for election. Having said that I would not be voting for them, and I hoped few others would.
There was nothing to stop the SDA doing the same thing, and getting a bit of a public profile. That’s assuming there’s actually more than about three of them, which I have some doubts about.
@ Yesindie2
“Danger for the SNP is that it builds the credibility of the SDA and makes them more of a force in the SE2016. Well, even as a new member of the SNP, that’s their problem – Indy is above all!”
I think that is called a plural democracy, which I am all for, so long as their loyalty is to Scotland and the Scottish People, not to a foreign parliament.
@BtP:
I’m sorry to hear that this brave beast is living on borrowed time. I think I’ll miss it. Badly.
But I hope you just mean you’re used to slough your old skin off from time to time?
freescot.land is a great deal!
I don’t think the SDA are a danger to anyone. They’ve been around for donkeys’ years in one form or another, and made absolutely no progress or impact whatsoever. It’s far more likely that a new, more dynamic group occupying much the same ground will emerge and become a genuine player.
If that story above is true that one of them stood in the Govan ward by-election last October and got only one vote, then it’s even worse than I thought.
Morag
You’re right about Wealthy Nation, and their website is a great resource too. I used it as well as other sources, for understanding of currency, sterlingisation and things like the Panama banking. I think that helped to settle a few doubters in the Herald forum, which means their articles should have been incorporated and pushed generally, including the disgusting YESD website!
They should definitely have been an inaugral part of YES Scotland – with a board member if they didn’t. One of them even founded the Fraser of Allander Institute! Underutilised.
Morag re SDA candidate – Oh dear!
With hindsight, I should have posted more about Wealthy Nation – for the conservatives with or without a capital C. And even to hope the Herald would have picked up on them as a resource.
In the event, a 5% of Conservative voters voting YES was a great disappointment, I thought it would be more. That would include a large number of the pensionable age of people as well, many Conservatives amongst them still. Where I live used to be overflowing with them!
I didn’t really care for some of the ideology Wealthy Nation seemed to be promoting. Private healthcare was one topic. However some of the discussion at their meeting was very interesting.
I just happen to be a huge fan of universal benefits, which kind of puts me in the opposite camp from their general standpoint.
Morag
Me too with the universal benefits. It’s the info they have, rather than the ideology, but that could appeal to some of the 30-40% conservatives.
@Morag
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=10776
Tommy Sheridan was a star throughout, playing to packed venues, saw him myself at Victoria’s in Sauchiehall Street, highlight of the campaign for me. As for nonsense like Tommy wants the banks nationalised, they’re nationalised already or haven’t you noticed?
BBC Scotland’s tour of Scotland testing local opinion was a fiasco, a succesion of dull country towns with dull folk expressing dull conservative opinions became the order of the day. They might have visited Easterhouse by way of balance but there are more folk living in Easterhouse than all these places put together.
Jist Sayin!
Its easy in a ‘toon to get Gogszilla down and out. I wish it was as easy in Gogszilla country 🙁
Love the ‘toon Greg, got the autographed book, Woohoo.
Andrew, bwahahahaha!
Yesindiref2: Which is precisely why it’s a good idea to learn from history, and make sure it doesn’t repeat itself.
Exactly what junior class of cretinous pupil do you think you lecture?
Are you selling hair shirts? Stop your immature, self-defeating navel gazing.
Fix your sights on the enemies of democracy or go home and attend to your budgerigar. Jeezus!
Exactly what junior class of cretinous pupil do you think you lecture?
I think your comment answers your own question!
yesindyref2
I rather suspect the SDA was designed to split the SNP vote as it constantly focused issues on which the SNP could be divided
All this handbag swinging could create energy for the future xx
But Dave, they record a policy of not standing against the SNP until after independence.
Of course from all I can see, it’s such a small group of people, possibly little more than a few friends getting together with a web site, that they’re not going to split much.
Strangely enough Paula, posting in the Herald meant I had to put velvet gloves over my teeth, teeth I’d sharpened in the Guardian. It’s good to get those velvet caps off occasionally!
Mmm, that reminds me though. Handbag – garden – brick. That’s better 🙂
Massive thanks to everyone who voted YES.
Still can’t believe 1.6 million Scottish voters stood their ground and voted YES considering what was thrown at us by the British State and their locals allies.
Hard to believe there was 24,000 YES voters in East Renfrewshire.
Makes you think.
If they all voted SNP next May, Jim Murphy would be out in his ear.
The scary thing is that I’m not sure I found it funny. Am I weird?
To Flower of Scotland. I was one of a dedicated group, mainly SNP, who fought hard to get the message of McCrone, Atlantic Oil/Gas out in the media including Bittertogether Broadcasting Corpn. I tried phoning-in at every opportunity but I never got on to R/Scotland though I did manage to get on to the Stephen Nolan show on R5 Live but it was well after midnight. So we did try but with the massed media against us what chance did we have? We did make all info available on this website plus NewsnetScotland and Bellacaledonia. If you are unaware of what was available then email me at: asterix.says.yes@gmail.com and I’ll belatedly send to you.
YFIS
Auld Rock
I despair of my countrymen at times
Navel gazing, bewildered minds in the sky somewhere, over the rainbow politics of made up nobody parties supporting “Save the incompetent”
We have the SNP, the only credible threat to the Westminster machine,use it,vote for it, and later, when we win, if you dont like it, that’s when you have the choice to change things, coz right now, “You got Nothing”
If i upset anyone….i don’t care…
Dr Jimmy honey – you are a bit amongst the converted here love.
Sorry Paula Rose:
Long day reading and listening to negative drivel,dont know how our polititians maintain their level of calm
Or it could be age, 65 next week, been waiting a long time for this shot, excuse me getting tetchy, usually i have a good laugh at the opposition, but there are still one or two out there who just creep under my skin
“Must try Harder”
Dr Jim honey – always love a man who tries to get harder.
Getin hot & steamy in here, must open a windae! 🙂
Fred
The Scottish oxymoron
An oh so clever people
Mysteriously, often befuddled
By their very own cleverness
Stormy night! woke in the wee sma oors for a slug of cough mixture and turning over thought of Lamont, Curran & Co lying in their beds (not pretty I know!) their consciences working overtime at their betrayal of their class, their country, their own people, my people, right back to Keir Hardie, Cunninghame Graham & John McLean, generations of ordinary folk to whom the Labour movement was their only hope. (I don’t include the likes of Murphy & Davidson here who I doubt have much in the way of conscience anyhow.) Flattered by media attention and appearing before the cameras with their Tory co-conspiritors, on platforms up & down the country, to the detriment of all they ever claimed to believe in and betrayed in turn and shat upon by these same Tories in predictably short order.
They should be thankful at least for free prescriptions for their sleeping pills.
Scotland, clued-up thinking Scotland, our Scotland, will never forgive them and as in a Greek tragedy, nemesis inevitably follows hubris.
Just been watching state tv broadcaster, they’re panicking now, never have i seen Alistair Carmichael on the box in one day so much warning Nicola Sturgeon not to do exactly what the SNP is supposed to do, which is,”Altogether Now”
Deliver INDEPENDENCE Which part of this do they not get, even Nick “THE PLEDGE” Clegg was in on it, while on the other hand trying to F…K UP our energy company’s business
The BASTIRTS
Well that’s it for now ,off to my branch meeting
There’s been talk of cake
Will McEwan wrote on 4th October “The YES side actually has won.”
No, the majority of the Scottish working class voted against separatism, for class unity. A decisive victory.
SNP Yes campaign never came chapping on any post code ky15
doors. Willie Rennie did for the No vote and got a result.
SNP no chance next time they even gave away part of the railroad hard neck. The Vow will never happen. No one throuhout the ages has ever beat the system.
I voted SNP for decades but never again.
Can I guess John Brown that you never voted SNP at all and you think we are all daft
Now now stop all this backbiting.
Have a look at Scottish Economy Watch: Independence.It is a headful and no idea if correct,but excellently written oh and I am from the West Midlands,just poking my nose in as I do on the No voters