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Wings Over Scotland


Full marks for persistence

Posted on May 11, 2013 by

If there’s one area where you really have to hand it to “Better Together”, it’s sheer shamelessness. Despite having been humiliatingly exposed for inflating attendance figures at their events by at least 100% twice on this site alone, to the great merriment of Yes campaigners, they just keep right on going without a hint of embarrassment.

btaberdeen

We can’t help starting to wonder if this might all be one of those sort of “When I was going to St Ives…” trick riddle things. How many Darling Youth kids make 70?

When someone pointed us to the link on Facebook, an angry “Better Together” type was quickly on the case, insisting “That picture was taken from about half way down the room. There are loads of folk who were there who aren’t in that photo”.

Was it? We like to make sure we’ve got our facts straight on Wings Over Scotland, so we scooted over to the official @UK_Together Twitter page to see if they could help us out with any shots from the other end. And bless ’em, they were as helpful as ever:

btaberdeen3

Looks like naughty old Jonathan was telling us fibs. As you can tell from the picture frames on the right of the second pic (and the girl in the pink top), the first one in fact shows pretty much the entire room, including the furthest-back table. So how many people are ACTUALLY there? Could it be 70? We got our trusty dabber out.

btaberdeenmarked

Oh look, it’s 40. But inflating the figure by only 75% is, we suppose, some small level of progress. Who knows, perhaps by the time we actually get to the referendum, the No camp will have told the truth about something.

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100 to “Full marks for persistence”

  1. Silverytay says:

    The primary 1s at the school where I work can count better than the NO Scotland campaign ' I refuse to call them by their b.t name .

  2. tartanfever says:

    What is even more bizarre is that BT ( edit, sorry ST, I mean the NO Scotland campaign) would claim the photo is taken from half way down the room. Any political or non political gathering/event I've ever had to photograph over the last 20 years has always had a someone saying 'make the room look as full as possible' .

    Just laughable.

  3. Morag says:

    Looking at the picture taken from the front, there could be a few more cut off at the right of the photo, as the room seems a little longer at that side.  But no more than half a dozen, probably not even that.

    But come on, even if it had been 70, so what.  "Aberdeen Youth and Students"?  How big a city is Aberdeen, pray tell?  This isn't a normal political meeting, for party political types only and with another three or four to choose from.  This is the referendum that's supposed to be engaging people beyond party boundaries.

    If they actually thought that was good, in a city that size, they have very small horizons.

  4. Jiggsbro says:

    70? B******t.

  5. Bill C says:

    Is there anything about the Better Together campiagn that does not involve lies?

    I am giving them their official title for the last time.  From hemceforth and with Silvertay's permission, whenever I refer to that mob again, it will be as the "NO Scotland campaign"; much more accurate and much more honest!

  6. Silverytay says:

    Bill C   No problem because that is what will happen if we are daft enough to vote no ' although due to scottish_skier and others I have every confidence that YES will win on the day .

     

  7. Greg Hendry says:

    Has someone informed the Truth Team?

    Was Johann Lamont available for comment?

  8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    They haven’t put out a single tweet this month, so I assume they’re busy looking into it.

  9. Bill C says:

    @Silvertay – You are a gentleman. You are spot on there will be NO Scotland if there is a no vote. Hopefully we will get that message across to our countrymen and women.  Like you, I think much of what S_S says is right on the money.

    @Morag – I live in Aberdeeenshire. Aberdeen has a population of around 250,000; while the Shire has round about 275,000 i.e. combined well over half a million. Hence the "NO Scotland campaign" turnout was derisory to say the least.

  10. Yesitis says:

    Yeah, but according to the latest poll, 59% of Scots want to maintain the union. Mmm…?

    Liars, cheats and bullshitters Together.

  11. Jim Mitchell says:

    And of course, unless they are screenin gtheir guests, (always a possibility)

    Some of those and we don't know how many, would have been  undecideds or even, dare I say it, folk who are going to vote YES

  12. Bob Howie says:

    it seems BT are getting too used to counting in twos unfortuantely you actually have to count two people for that to work, otherwise stick to fingers it is simpler.
    p.s. that is to fingers not two fingers

  13. BuckieBraes says:

    Bless 'em – it's a shame really. This level of deception is quite sweet, because they're not even trying to be convincing.

    Whatever the turnout, the guy who's speaking seems to be commanding about as much attention as an air hostess during the safety briefing.

  14. Jim Mitchell says:

    Mind you, if they really believe their figures, it does go some way to explaining how unionists always manage to get the economy in such a mess!

  15. Jim Mitchell says:

    Rev, Campbell, I do hate to contradict my host, but won't that truth mob be busy checking out the accusations made against those 2 Labour MPs, who have to hand back money they got from some kind of house swindle.

    A mistake surely!

  16. Bunter says:

    And dont forget, apparently they dish out free drinks and nibbles at some of their meetings, so it may be possible that the 40 that turned up were merely cash strapped students looking for free drink and grub!

  17. Marian says:

    Better Together don't need to fill rooms with supporters because the  Better Together campaign has, so far, succeeded in switching the independence debate away from grand visions and into the minutiae that switches voters off in droves. It fits nicely with their other tactic of connecting SNP policy with what an independent Scotland may or may not do. The No campaign wants to bore Scottish voters into submission, or into not voting at all. So far, it's a strategy that's paying dividends.

  18. Gusmac says:

    Maybe the other 30 were all in the bog? PMSL

  19. ianbrotherhood says:

    Rev,

    Can you fit a wee smiley to the end of your dabber? (if you'll pardon the expression, er, you know what I mean…) It would make them all look a lot happier.

  20. ianbrotherhood says:

     

    Maybe the missing 30 are like the moonwalking bear in this clip – they're there but we just can't see them:

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47LCLoidJh4

  21. macdoc says:

    I wonder how many of these students are British Nationalists and how many are just completely clueless on the subject?

  22. BillyBigbaws says:

    It'll be funny if the Truth Team have recently gone through a similar process to the one the rest of us did some time back – they've finally had a look at all the figures in the round, Westminster's and the SNP's, in an attempt to find out Scotland's true fiscal position… and then they've gone: "Aw hell naw!  Whit the f***?!  They've been ripping us off for decades!"

    Anas Sarwar'll be desperately trying to get them back in line while they all try to scramble out the windows of BT HQ.

    I'd like all the Truth Team members to take an honest look at the McCrone Report, what it said, how it was treated by civil servants at the time, and what happened to Scotland under successive Westminster governments afterward.  Then maybe they can explain to me why it was all for our own good.   

  23. cynicalHighlander says:

    Sorry to spoil the party but prof Curtis evaluated the numbers and since he has BBC endorsement, with statutory standby allowance, can confirm that over 80% of attendees supported what they where being told.

  24. Bill C says:

    @Marian

    "It fits nicely with their other tactic of connecting SNP policy with what an independent Scotland may or may not do."

    As I have said before on here, I have been a member of the SNP for over 40 years and I will probably die a member of the SNP, however, this is an issue I have raised many, many, times within the party.  The SNP have never been particularly successful in getting across to the general public that a vote for the SNP is not necessarily a vote for an SNP government. Scottish elections WILL FOLLOW INDEPENDENCE and people will be able to vote for the party of their choice.

    I really do think that this is an issue that the YES campaign MUST publicise.

  25. Jeannie says:

    A young fogiefest – how depressing.  If you can't be full of passionate rebellion at their age when can you be? I'd hate to be in the fogie camp at my age, never mind at theirs.

  26. ianbrotherhood says:

     

    There are 317 animals in this picture – how many can you find?

     

  27. Morag says:

    I'm prepared to grant them another half dozen on the right of the photo, but even so, it's a very indifferent turnout.  And yet, that's the room they booked.  They weren't expecting to be mobbed, evidently.

  28. ianbrotherhood says:

     

    The official launch of Better Together Kilwinning declared 'a phenomenal success' with the crowd estimated at 'scores of thousands':

     

    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2010/6/1/1275384682800/Wheres-Wally-record-attem-002.jpg

  29. macdoc says:

    Who are these people that are fighting against Scotlands best interests. Fighting to keep Scotland poorer, more unequal, less ambitous, less international influence and subordinate? 

    I accept that some people will always think of their nationality as British and cannot have their opinion changed, theres nothing wrong with that. But theres nothing worse than shouting about being Scottish yet fighting against the countries interest you proclaim to love. This can only be explained by lieing or ignorance!. Ignorance can usually be cured by facts and momentum, 

    I just want to comment further;and say that the YES campaign have been awful so far, By all means we should shout our positive case from the rooftops but by not pointing out just how awful and dishonest No campaign have been and ;the lies that have been told for decades the majority of Scots will not get excited or realise what the fuss is about. The British nationalists have lied and spouted propaganda for years. Its about time the people of Scotland find out that they are being taken for absolute fools.

  30. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    Gordon Brown to the rescue!?

    GB apparently to speak in Scotland on Monday to ask Labour voters not to vote for an Independent Scotland. Their new slogan for Scotland remaining in the UK "United by Labour". I suggest that it be read as "Scotland is Labouring under UK"

    If anyone knows where the talk is happening, pass it on. Someone ought to go there and ask GB what will his day job be in an Independent Scotland? 🙂

     

  31. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    A rare victory for Scotland over UK MoD!

    Let's enjoy this foretaste of the joy that will ensue throughout Scotland at the sight Trident sailing out of Scottish waters for good!

  32. kininvie says:

    @ Bill C

    You are right.  It's one of the few areas where the NO Scotland's tactics have really worked well. Equate independence with SNP; equate Yes campaign with a vote for Salmond. I hear it constantly out on the streets…ahm no voting fur yon bugger….

    I don't know the best way of countering this. Or, rather, I do, but it's not happening. We're being suckered into behaving as if this is another election campaign, and it's so easy to go along with because it is all familiar – leafleting, knocking on doors, etc.

    It's not an election campaign….but that's a very hard thing to get across to voters when all the apparatus is so familiar.

  33. Holebender says:

    I know what they're doing! Say the final result of the referendum is 2,500,000 YES and 1,500,000 NO. A quick wave of the BT magic wand and, hey presto, that NO vote becomes 3,000,000! Job done and we all stay (better) together!

  34. Adrian B says:

    @ Kininvie,

     

    Its not a vote for Salmond, Cameron, Clegg or Milliband either. Its a vote to give the Scottish Parliament full control of the revenue from within the country. To be spent in the way that the Scottish people vote for.

     

     

  35. ianbrotherhood says:

     

    BellaC have the Max Keiser/Frankie Boyle interview, but also lead with Indyref – well worth a watch:

     

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/05/11/frankie-boyle-and-max-keiser/

  36. sneddon says:

    I've heard the Truth Team are currently marooned on Tracey Island hunting down policies.  Normal service will be resumed shortly 🙂

  37. ianbrotherhood says:

     

    @kininvie-

     

    The best way to deal with Salmond-haters is to remind them that if independence is secured then he can leave the stage knowing that he achieved what he set out to do. 

     

    If you hate Salmond, vote Yes – he'll stay as long as it takes for the formal Declaration of Independence (another couple of years after the Yes result?), and that's him finished, he can happily retire. If you vote for continuance of the Union there's no reason to believe he won't  just keep going a la Castro until the job is done.

     

  38. CameronB says:

    I thought they were on Moon Base Alpha, investigating the real level of risk from Nazi invasion, post independence. 🙂

  39. Doug Daniel says:

    Bunter – "And dont forget, apparently they dish out free drinks and nibbles at some of their meetings, so it may be possible that the 40 that turned up were merely cash strapped students looking for free drink and grub!"

     

    Indeed, free wine all round (except for the underagers, I hope!) and crisps provided from Aberdeen's most famous unionist, Maitland Mackie! If I was 10 years younger, I'd have gone myself, just to get pished courtesy of Ian Taylor's generous donation to the No campaign.

  40. Bill C says:

    @kininvie – "I don't know the best way of countering this. Or, rather, I do, but it's not happening. We're being suckered into behaving as if this is another election campaign, and it's so easy to go along with because it is all familiar – leafleting, knocking on doors, etc."

    For me, that's it in a nutshell. This is not an ordinary election campaign. It's not nationalists against the rest of Scotland. It is some Scots struggling to alert other Scots to what is rightfully ours i.e. the right to govern our own country. I have the greatest respect for Alex Salmond, he will go down in our history and we would not be where we are today without him. However, I have always thought that this a common struggle, we have to take as many with us as possible, it cannot be a struggle based on party affiliations or on one individual.  I really think it is time to open up the debate and declare YES for Scotland's future rather than yes to the SNP.  In saying that, I would repeat what I said earlier, I have been a member of the SNP for over 40 years and I will die a member of the SNP. No party has done more for Scotland.

     

  41. macdoc says:

    I'm always stuck in two minds by the Salmond haters. In one way I would like to say its not a vote for Salmond, in the same way a No vote is not a vote for David Cameron, means to and end etc. The other part wants to tell them that their hatred of Salmond probably stems from ignorance and has been completely manipulated by the media which has made him a hate figure as he is the greatest threat the UK establishment has faced since WW2. 

    The abuse that Salmond gets relly annoys me becuase no matter what you may think of his personality etc here is a man that has done his absolute best for Scotland and has tried to open up the nations eyes into why Scotland would be so much better off as an independent nation., Why we are not the crappy underachieving basket case the media portrays us as but a rich vibrant nation with huge potential and he is hated for this. If people are going to hate Scottish politicians look no further than the current crop of Unionists who are doing there upmost to harms Scotlands future prospects and many of them know the reality of the situaton.

    You really couldn't make the situation up, its such an absurd state of affairs and just shows how easiy the masses can be fooled by political propaganda. The majortiy of people have no interest in finding out information on there own volition. Hopefully all this will change nearer the time. 

  42. Morag says:

    Look at Salmond's approval ratings.  He's not widely reviled.  For a leader in the middle of his second term, in a recession, it's positively supernatural.

  43. Bill C says:

    @macdoc -Hear, hear.

  44. Patrician says:

    I am glad to see my "call them No Scotland" campaign is starting to gain traction on this site 😀

  45. Morag says:

    That, too!  🙂

  46. pmcrek says:

    There was over 9000!

  47. I'm always stuck in two minds by the Salmond haters. In one way I would like to say its not a vote for Salmond, in the same way a No vote is not a vote for David Cameron, means to and end etc. The other part wants to tell them that their hatred of Salmond probably stems from ignorance and has been completely manipulated by the media which has made him a hate figure as he is the greatest threat the UK establishment has faced since WW2. 

    This Wee Wild Hairy Haggis agrees wi' ye, macdoc. In mah chawin' wi' the Big Yins, ah've noticed tha' whene'er ah try tae ken why summbdy disnae like summbdy else, it's illuminating tae view responses.

    Fr'instance, tak George Osbourne: mos' folks ah've talked tae hate his grallochs on account o' his reforms an' policies. Same fur Cameron, Duncan Smith, an' others. But when it comes tae Salmond, it's ower summun daft like "'e's a big tumfie," 'e's a wee chancer," "'canae stand 'is smilin' face." Wha' the Romans kent as ad hominem: bellum onnie person, no' on whit they've done.

    Noo, we Haggis have oor issues wi' Mistur Salmond, maistly o'er his Euro policies, dealings wi' China, and courtin' Donald Trump an' Rupert Murdoch, but it raither bumbaizes me tha' ye'd dislike Salmond more fur whit he looks like, than Cameron, Osborne an' Duncan Smith fur whit thev actually din tae 'e people o' oor country.

    Haggis lik tae consider oorsiels abune sik hurtfu' notions as hatred, bu' the fowk o' Westminster are dain' a fine job o' daizin' us!

  48. Doug says:

    O/T – "United with Labour"

     

    A sign of splits/dissent in the NO ranks?  A cunning ploy by Labour to turn things 'party political'?  Or a waste of time/energy?

     

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22495174

  49. pmcrek says:

    Doug,

    I think they are over confident, there has been a bunch of polls done by No Scotland and Yes Scotland over the past month, all asked the referendum question, I know of three specifically, but none of the results have been released. The No Scotland ones actually had a paragraph of "…separate from the UK" preamble before actually asking the referendum question. Only poll we got results for was the IPSOS Mori one done for the Times and it looks like yes support has slipped slightly, I assume the non published polls show the same.

     

    So, I think they simply want to separate themselves from the Tories to avoid the flak for the next Holyrood and UK general election. Unfortunately it seems to no real surprise that, the press has rolled over and let them do so without utterly carving them up for dinner as they deserve. Just imagine the headlines for the next 500 days if the SSP, SNP or Greens left Yes Scotland?

     

    From the point of vew of Yes Scotland, the campaign hasnt really began yet, a good 20% of the no vote is very soft and I dont think Better Together have any ammo left to fire, they are repeating themselves already with almost a year and a half to go. Dont get me wrong there is a lot hard campaigning to do but despite what Labour clearly think we'll see were the polls are at the end of the year.

  50. CameronB says:

    Re. 'United with Labour'

    Mr Sarwar said: "We are excited about putting forward our case for Scotland in the United Kingdom based on Labour values of solidarity, community, fairness, equality and social justice.

    "Our vision is for a fairer, better Scotland that stands strong within the United Kingdom, working in partnership with our neighbours.

    So this will all be with the approval of London then, who have a whole raft on new powers and responsabilities they are desperate to devlove to Scotland. A bit like….like….Devo Max or something.

    Why do they waste our time with this, as well as their own? Not only is it rank, in terms of the level of hypocrasy, but what meanifull powers can be devolved within the current constitutional arrangements? Back to you BT, sorry SLabour.

    If the referendum debate was a game of chicken, I think I know who has just lost.

    PS If only I could have loaded an image, I have a rather fine one of our Anas. Some of you might already have seen it. 🙂

  51. scaredy cat. says:

    O/T but related to a previous thread. Some people were looking for images to spread the word.Well there are two good sources on Facebook. Interesting that both pages go by the name of The McCrone Report but I don’t know if they are linked. Anyway, between the two sites there are over 100 graphics and some are pretty good for sharing.

  52. john king says:

    I tell you no lies,

    I wish I had taken note of the site, 

    a student in Scotland said he will be voting against independence because he didnt feel an independent Scotland could afford free university education, 

    and these are our brightest? god save us 

  53. john king says:

    "The official launch of Better Together Kilwinning declared 'a phenomenal success' with the crowd estimated at 'scores of thousands':"

     

    I found him I found him 

    he's the one three down from the front 14 in from the left, the one with the red and white stripey jersey and glasses,

    yes him

    thats wally

     

  54. CameronB says:

    @ john knig

    It has been said before, that university brings out all the capabilities, including incapability. (Anton Chekhov)

  55. Macart says:

    @CameronB and Doug

     

    Yep I'd heard a rumour that Labour were going to set up their own campaign. I'm guessing they're trying to put some distance between themselves and BT's now very tarnished image. They've been caught out lying their asses off over numbers. Their leaflet of doom bombardments over the economy have blown up in their faces when triple A went doon the Swanee. The attack the SG on EU tactic fell apart as ConlibUKIP stabbed Better NO in the back by declaring for an EU referendum. The Taylor donation scandal blew their credibility right out of the water and the coup de Gracie was the shambolic five hundred questions leaving them a laughing stock.

     

    Now my question to Labour would be – Seeing as how Labour were effectively running the no campaign in the form of Messrs McDougall and Darling, just what difference will it make to the electorate's view of trust and competence in Labour politicians when you set yourselves apart from better no? I mean we're still going to see Labour running an anti independence, anti home rule campaign. A change of name doesn't hide the fact that Labour ran one gaff prone, disjointed shambles and now is asking us to believe the same degrading lies just because they've put their parliamentary coat back on.

    However Johann and Anas at this point really will have to come out of their bunker and face the music. If they're now running a campaign themselves, they'll have to stand infront of those cameras and explain just why income tax on its own is a grand idea. This time they may even have cue cards to hand. 🙂

  56. CameronB says:

    @ Macart

    Johann and Anas running a campaign, now that I look forward to, if only for the comedy value. I think that running a bath is more their level of competance.

    What about Messrs McDougall and Darling? I wonder if they will stay with BT, sorry No Scotland?

    Is this a Judean People's Front v People's Front of Judea moment?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

  57. Macart says:

    @Cameron

     

    😀 LOL Classic.

    It really does remind you of that scene doesn't it? Anyhoo, its a theory. I think a few folks may be getting nervous at the lack of polling progress these days and for all the wrong reasons. They see little movement since January and think this is bad news, yet that couldn't be further from the truth. I believe that very same percentage is why better no and Labour in particular are sweating billiard balls.

     

    Even with all the big cannon on their side; government, media, finance et, etc, they haven't put a dent in that core vote. The know that status quo devo actually runs at around 20-25% and that the soft no or disenfranchised devo max voter (who's still waiting to see what's on offer) is the far larger make or break vote. They also know they have NOTHING to offer these people.

     

    As I theorised above, BTs tarnished campaign is a shambles, vote YES hasn't crumbled in the face of the most negative personalised media onslaught I've ever seen so what's a desperate Labour to do? They're trying a rebranding exercise mid flow in the hopes that no one notices its still Labour running the show regardless. Only now they're left with the B team in front of camera spouting the same insults toward the SNP, whilst telling the Scots electorate how singularly unfit they are to run their own show. Change of label and packaging, same old message.

     

  58. Indion says:

     

    An alternative title would be " Has Labour in Scotland moved right away to lose the left completely on the hame front".

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/gregor-gall-socialists-face-up-to-independence-dilemma-1-2926208

    Thoughts?

  59. Another London Dividend says:

    I see Gordon Browqn has intervened in referendum debate and Labour going form their own United Labour anti Scottish independence grouping.

    Can't remember where I saw this but..

    Hidden away from public gaze is The Register of Members' Financial Interests
    publications.parliament.uk/…/…
    and id you go onto
    BROWN, Rt. Hon. Gordon (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath)
    As at 3rd September 2012
    you will find this :
    publications.parliament.uk/…/…
    Payments as Distinguished Global Leader in Residence at New York University: Campuses in New York, Abu Dhabi and Florence. Hours: ongoing commitment.
    Payments as Chairman of the World Economic Forum Policy Coordination Group
    and you will note a regular statement 'I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown for the employment of staff to support my ongoing involvement in public life'

    So the money goes to a company called
    The Office Of Gordon And Sarah Brown Limited (Company number: 07362179)
    When I check an online source for company information
    The Office Of Gordon And Sarah Brown Limited shows that the comoany had a net worth of £ 72,834 to Agust 2011
    bizzy.co.uk/…/…
    The only director show is Sarah Brown, plus a company secretary named as David J Boutcher. Both Sarah Brown and David Boutcher are directors on the board of PiggyBankKids. Boutcher's main occupation is as partner in the firm Reed Smith, a mergers and aquisitions company
    http://www.reedsmith.com/

    Unfortunately I'm no accountant, so would be interesting to have any accountants out there look through what Gordon Brown is claiming.
    What is more important is the fact that Gordon Brown has claimed something like £ 127,197 for attending the Commons to represent the people of Kircaldy and Cowdenbeath, but has only spoken in one debate during the last twelve months. Which in itself is scandalous.
    By the way the statement by Gordon Brown, that 'I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown for the employment of staff to support my ongoing involvement in public life' Is not entirely true. You see, as a director of 'The Office of Sarah and Gordon Brown Ltd' she is entitled to take a monthly dividend from the company as well as her salary

    The former Prime Minister Gordon Brown received £127,197 in expenses and staffing costs. Mr Brown claimed £13,458 in travelling costs, despite speaking in Parliament only three times since the 2010 election." telegraph.co.uk/…/…

     

     

  60. cynicalHighlander says:

    I can see the headline  'The Labour Party in Scotland wish to work Independent from Better Together' 

  61. scottish_skier says:

    I've talked about polls suggesting the No vote is soft – even that MORI poll which was way out on it's own in favour of No only had 45% of respondents saying if they vote they'll vote No definitely, i.e. it actually showed a majority were not committed to voting for the union.

    This ties in to turnout too. How may people saying 'No' will actually vote No if they are not strongly behind that position? 

    While it confirms nothing, if the No vote was soft, might you expect BT have trouble getting boots on the ground for their campaign? They're certainly getting poor numbers for campaign meetings and are definitely having to make a concerted effort to 'generate' (presumably by paid means such as sponsored stories and spam texts)* according to people who've recieved these) likes for their facebook page; if the latter is left alone to attract attention 'naturally' it drops to 50/day. In contrast, baseline (minimum values) for YesScotland have been 200/day from the beginning of March rising to 800/day since late April. 

    *Stats would suggest these actually attract as much interest in YesScotland as BT which is quite amusing. Well what do you expect – if people are directed to one side of the story, unless they are committed to No, chances are they'll go looking for the other side.

  62. CameronB says:

    @ Indion

    I'm not sure if I can agree with Gregor Gall. To me, the referendum is not about whether Scotland is to become a socialist or neo-liberal paradise. It is about wether Scotland should govern itself, full stiop. Our direction of travel will surely be established following the democratic process, after we gain independence.

    I can appreciate what Mr. Gall is saying, but I think he is just confusing the issue. Just my reading of it anyway.

  63. scottish_skier says:

    Yep I'd heard a rumour that Labour were going to set up their own campaign.

    I noted this too. Might be related to Darling's low popularity in the No camp – i.e. No folks unhappy with Better Togther – Tories on board…dirty money…no positive case for the union just relentless and outlandish scare stories….

    A divided campaign is never a good thing.

  64. gerry parker says:

    Wasn't it the polis that said "If anyone escapes from Ailsa, we throw a cordon round Kilwinning.  If they get in there, we'll never find them"

  65. scottish_skier says:

    As for Mr Gall.

    For example, the SNP’s neo-liberal-influenced vision of independence does not address social questions in a way that can compel a majority to support independence

    Stopped reading right there. There's no point in reading mince.

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

    It's centre-left leaning and left parties that all back yes fool.

    Centre-right neoliberalism does not lend itself to nation-building by default. It focusses on the individual, not society, and a nation is a society; geography is secondary. That’s why whilst thatcher was stating her policies were ‘building one nation’, the exact opposite was happening.

  66. CameronB says:

    @ scottish_skier

    That statement did strike me as a little odd, but I persisted to the end. I think it helps to know what the opposition are thinking.

  67. Juteman says:

    My daughter is at uni in Aberdeen. According to her, when she broaches the subject of independence, she gets funny looks. Most of the folk on her course are from the monied 'country set' though.

  68. scottish_skier says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22495174

    Scottish independence: Labour launches referendum campaign

    Better Together? Erm, even those who thought we're better together have decided they're better apart.

    Big development. 

  69. Appleby says:

    And it's only 40 people if you include the organisers and speakers.

     

    Sad, pathetic and desperate. The Bitter Together crowd know they are running out of steam. Keep pushing hard and we will have our independence. Don't rest on laurals, mind!

  70. kininvie says:

    O/T Great quote about the BBC:

    “Throughout the BBC there is a politically correct, pro-Labour culture, which is completely out of touch with the real world. The BBC is almost like some social democratic republic. They drink among themselves, they eat together, they sleep together, they marry each other. The BBC is a very incestuous place.”

    …OK, it's from the Express, so it's complaining that the Tories don't get fair dibs. But in a different context, it's maybe not so far wrong

     

  71. Blackford Wheeler says:

    cynicalHighlander says:

    12 May, 2013 at 8:50 am

    "I can see the headline  'The Labour Party in Scotland wish to work Independent from Better Together' "

     

    SEPARATISTS!

  72. gerry parker says:

    Sorry to go off topic rev, but congratulations to Ricky Burns of Coatbridge, not a boxing fan but the boy done good.

    A similar level of committment and determination from Yes Scotland will win Scotland Independence. 

  73. Ray Vaughn says:

    Any chance the eagle eyed number crunchers could explain how over 5000 apparently were squeezed into the 3000 capacity Ross Bandstand after the march for independence?

     

    I shall assume that given the health and safety alert raised after sleuths spotted overcrowding at a better together event will be replicated.

  74. Albalha says:

    From the G Brown SoS front page. Labour are launching their own NO campaign tomorrow apparently. So the argument, as per paragraph below, surely is particularly easy to rebut on many different levels. As has well been well rehearsed here Scottish voters will make no difference to the 2015 outcome and it's down to Ed, Gordon, Douglas et al not us. Really hell mend them.

    Brown, who is still MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, is expected to argue that if Scottish Labour supporters vote to leave the UK it would mean abandoning colleagues in England to years of Tory rule.

     

  75. scottish_skier says:

    I suppose this means Better Together are now offically a Tory-led organisation.

    Could well end up with an end to Better Together and no single, co-ordinated pro-union campaign. 

    Interesting development.

  76. HandandShrimp says:

    O/T

     

    Fascinating discussions on Headlines this morning. 

  77. Juteman says:

    I wonder if this story will receive the same headlines as the other European/Indy comments?

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/adviser-to-german-government-indy-scotland-would-still-be-in-europe.20948699

  78. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Doug

    Good that you picked up the BBC story. I also spotted a GB "United by Labour" story earlier in the Telegraph. Interested in your thoughts on the "Scotland is Labouring under UK" quip.

    AmadeusMinkowski says:

    11 May, 2013 at 11:39 pm

    Gordon Brown to the rescue!?

    GB apparently to speak in Scotland on Monday to ask Labour voters not to vote for an Independent Scotland. Their new slogan for Scotland remaining in the UK "United by Labour". I suggest that it be read as "Scotland is Labouring under UK"

    If anyone knows where the talk is happening, pass it on. Someone ought to go there and ask GB what will his day job be in an Independent Scotland?

     

      

  79. Indion says:

     

    CameronB @ 8:53am

    Yes, I agree it's first and foremost about whether Scotland should govern itself, full stop.

    But not being on the spot, I was wondering how strong the connection was between Gregor Gall and the SSP leader Colin Fox and whether this article was to aid persuading Old Labour's remaining socialists in Scotland towards the YES direction.

    Or am I indulging in wishful thinking. If so, it wouldn't be for the first time in being a fool unto myself. So, am I being fanciful? And if not, is it something best left to itself pending developments? 

    [PS  To my mind, the "radical change to the British Union" would be in its transformation from the extant unitary UK state into a future Union of the British Isles, which for the geographically challenged – if not also politically sensitive – includes Ireland.

    IE a BU of confederal association, akin to that of the non-eurozone EU but with a secretariat rather than too big to fail bureaucratic commission.

    Courtesy of the Belfast Agreement, the forum already exists in the form of the British-Irish Council (also known as the Council of the Isles). And should our Referendum votes favour YES, then the Edinburgh Agreement to negotiate in the best interests of people in Scotland and the rUK will apply fully.

    That's bound to include the continued free movement of folk to live and work where they wish throughout the British Isles, as those in the Republic of Ireland do in not being deemed to be foreign by the UK.

    Ok, that's but one example of being in a position to determine how we should share our sovereignty in the mutual interests of optimal autonomy at the personal level of a continued social union, as sharing sterling at the plural level in a continued currency union would be – all being well in recovery off life support.

    And with optimal autonomy all round, the northern and southern Irish can get around to re-uinion when so minded – if ever – at there own pace and in their own time, entirely.]    

     

  80. Robert Louis says:

    I am very heartened to hear of the ‘indepependent’ anti independence campaign by the British Labour party. Even more heartened to hear they still think Brown is an ‘asset’. It is clear, people in Labour have finally realised they will be literally shafted even if there is a no vote.

    Consider what will happen, the day after the vote. if the anti independence campaign wins. Down in England, it is David Cameron, who will earn the praise in the home counties for keeping Scotland as an English possession. Miliband will not benefit one jot. If YES wins, then it becomes less important to the home counties, and Cameron will be guaranteed to win in 2015.

    The NO campaign, is a win-win for the Tories.

    Labour supporters need to sniff the coffee and wake up, to the fact that YES or NO, they will not benefit, right in the last few months before the 2015 general election. David Cameron will be hailed a hero if NO win. Labour have backed the wrong horse.

    I am frankly astonished it has taken them soooooooo long, to freaking realise all this.

    Truly beggars belief.

  81. SCED300 says:

    Very useful article in the Sunday Herald, from an adviser to the German on Scotland in the EU, saying we would be in.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/adviser-to-german-government-indy-scotland-would-still-be-in-europe.20948699

    Interesting to see how the BBC hides or spins this. There was certainly a bizarre response from the Together spkesman.

    Thinking about Labour launching its own Anti-Independence campaign; it doesn't seem to have woken up to the fact that without Independence on the table it has no bargaining power with the Westminster Government, definitely none with a Conservative one, and little influence with a Labour one. Why would either Governments bother.

  82. Mosstrooper says:

    @ Albalha 9.46 How do you think Mr (not so ) Smart's 100 years of tories will fit in to this farago of nonsense about "vote YES and doom England to the tories"

  83. Albalha says:

    @mosstrooper

    It's all coming from the same script. As I say I just hope there's a swift response from YES/SNP folks as it's patent bollocks.

  84. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Any chance the eagle eyed number crunchers could explain how over 5000 apparently were squeezed into the 3000 capacity Ross Bandstand after the march for independence?”

    They weren’t, of course. They occupied a far greater space than the bandstand’s 3000-capacity auditorium, spilling out into the rest of Princes Street Gardens:

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-numbers-game/

  85. SCED300 says:

    ON Gordon Brown to the rescue; there is a strange headline: 'Ditch the Tories, not the Union'! We have done that for 50years, sending a great wadges of Labour MPs to Westminster. Basically he is saying, stick with the status quo.

  86. Indion says:

     

    Bugger, i had the volume down to ear not fully cocked level during BBC 1's Andrew Marr show when at 0930ish Lord Brown spoke of trillions of oil and gas to come for the forseeable future.

    From where was he talking about, anybody?

    (And why can't the buckets of dosh earning BBC Worldwide not stump up for + 1 channels at home? That's a retorical question mark.) 

  87. Albalha says:

    @SCED300

    Think the S Herald Europe story was discussed as part of Bateman's Headlines programme this morning when I McWhirter was a welcome addition to K Higgins and K McKenna, regardless of whether one agrees with them or not neither is a particularly fluent speaker.

  88. Jeannie says:

    Well, if it's a Labour Party campaign in favour of the union, they should have no problem specifying which particular powers they will GUARANTEE us in the event of a No vote.

  89. Laura says:

    Well said Jeannie

    Two discredited politicians, Darling and Brown heading their own No Scotland campaigns and absolute gift for YES (and the Tories south)

     

  90. Morag says:

    They weren’t, of course. They occupied a far greater space than the bandstand’s 3000-capacity auditorium, spilling out into the rest of Princes Street Gardens:

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-numbers-game/

    Also, I think the Ross was significantly overfilled.  I was in there, and it was not easy to move about, especially at the front.  Others who have seen the photos and know the capacity ratings have said the elf-n-safety limit was well breached.  (Nobody was counting people in at the start and for quite some time.  I don't think they were expecting such a crowd.)

    The original plan was to have 2013 at the Ross again, before looking for a bigger venue for 2014.  However they had to ditch that because the Ross was well over capacity even in 2012, so they're going to Calton Hill this year instead.

  91. Hetty says:

    Let us know well in advance if poss when the march/meet will happen on Carlton Hill, I didn't know about the last one until an old friend I bumped into told me months after! Looking forward to it anyway.

  92. Chic McGregor says:

    Anyone notice how appropriate the initials are for the main UK Unionist figures?
     
    Gordon Brown – GB because he believes North Britain should remain British for the British in Britain.
     
    David Cameron – DC, superhero and often a comic at PMQs.  His only superpower though, is to change superhero costumes instantly, as the train crosses the Scottish border.
     
    Ed Miliband – EM, as in –  Em,… who?
     
    Nigel Farage – NF, ’nuff said.
     
    George Osbourne – GO, please just go.
     
     

  93. Anon Sailor says:

    In Aberdeen recently when our ship was in port I asked a bunch (8) of “Tank Cleaners”  doing our “mud” tanks: ” well guys what does Aberdeen say to independence next year?”, you know just to help morale at 0400.  Replies included “oh! Aye definately Yes!”, ” oh Yes!”, ” I cant take anymore of this shit UK”… etc
    It didnt just confirm my views , it gave me strength , I salute you Aberdeen.
    Im taking my cybernatting offline!

  94. Morag says:

    Let us know well in advance if poss when the march/meet will happen on Carlton Hill, I didn’t know about the last one until an old friend I bumped into told me months after! Looking forward to it anyway.

    21st September.  Details all available here.

    http://www.independencerally.com/main/

    Calton Hill, by the way, but try telling a Microsoft spellchecker that!

  95. Chic McGregor says:

     
    Morag says:
    12 May, 2013 at 10:01 pm

    “Let us know well in advance if poss when the march/meet will happen on Carlton Hill, I didn’t know about the last one until an old friend I bumped into told me months after! Looking forward to it anyway.
    21st September.  Details all available here.
    http://www.independencerally.com/main/
    Calton Hill, by the way, but try telling a Microsoft spellchecker that!”
     
    The fifth photie on the slideshow, the one wi the twa dugs, ‘Yes’ striving to reach ‘Freedom’, was taken by my daughter Karen at last year’s march.  It wasn’t contrived, just a brilliant coincidental photo op.

  96. Bob says:

    41. You forgot to count the photographer.

  97. Patrick Roden says:

    @ Albert Herron,
    That’s a great link, ‘Vote Yes and send the Bill to David Cameron’  Brilliant !

  98. mealer says:

    I’m fair looking forward to the rally.I hope there are going to be an adequate number of pipers there on the day.You really need several bands throughout the length of the procession.I had a look on the rally web site.There is very competitive coach travel available.Only a tenner from Dundee or Perth.But £14 from St Andrews ??? Maybe its an extra-luxury coach. 

  99. h4hsr says:

    i just typed in darling expenses scandal in to you tube
    you  should have a look



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