When two plus two is fourteen
It defies belief, in a way. It’s now been a full week since we mocked Willie Rennie’s embarrassingly clueless claim that an independent Scotland would need to negotiate “14,000 international treaties”, in a feature which was widely circulated and quoted.
So ridiculed was Rennie’s claim that even the Scotsman couldn’t make it stick, acknowledging on Monday that it had been exaggerated by at least 70%, with a maximum of 8500 actually still being in effect, let alone relevant to Scotland. An entertaining introductory package on last night’s Newsnight Scotland even highlighted our particular favourite of the UK’s treaties.
At which point the programme brought on the rare protected species that is Scotland’s only Tory MP, the Scotland Office minister David Mundell.
Here’s what the hapless Mr Mundell had to say on the matter, at 5m 51s:
“What I think the SNP don’t like about the opinion is that it suggests that [independence] is quite a difficult thing to do, because they would be placed in a position of having to negotiate 14,000 agreements.”
It’s easy just to laugh at this sort of stuff. Mundell is a bumbling low-watt-bulb of a government seat-warmer, unable to even recall the name of his SNP debating opponent Derek Mackay a few minutes earlier on Scotland Tonight (repeatedly calling the local-government minister “Donald” instead) and pressed into service because the Tories have nobody else.
But such casual misrepresentation of the facts is no accident. Mundell knew full well that his claim was a lie – his own government, after all, had just that morning published its own official analysis of the situation, and he was on the programme acting as its spokesman. The anti-independence campaign rests on hammering untruths continually into the minds of the Scottish electorate, and Mundell was serving that purpose, utilising the tactic (almost literally, in this case) of doublespeak.
“What is really important in the world of doublespeak is the ability to lie, whether knowingly or unconsciously, and to get away with it; and the ability to use lies and choose and shape facts selectively, blocking out those that don’t fit an agenda or program.”
Mundell was not challenged on his claim, either by Mackay or the show’s presenter Andrew Kerr. People who read neither the Scotman nor Wings Over Scotland – which is to say the vast majority of the Scottish population, despite recent advances on our part – but watched the show will now have only one figure in their head representing the magnitude of the administrative task of independence, and it will be an enormous lie. In short, he got away with it.
A point will come soon when the Yes campaign can no longer ignore the uneven playing field. There have been signs recently that a more combative approach is being adopted. In this site’s opinion, it is both right and necessary, not only in the interests of Scottish independence but also those of democracy.
Hi Stu.
I keep getting
Error 404 – Not Found
from you last link. Not sure if it’s something at my end as I’ve had it from some of your links before.
Hear, hear!!
Yes I agree Mr. Mackay did not effectively challenge much of what Mundell said. Admittedly Mundell got the lion’s share of the time to express himself, aided a little by Kerr the interviewer who should have interrupted him when he was hogging the speech time. Nonetheless, Mundell is a good articulate speaker and he comes across convincingly and yes I share your fustratation that the lie will take root in people’s minds. Mr. MacKay needed to challenge more effectively and I noticed that when he got his chance to reply he made his point well enough but he didn’t challenge Mundell’s case. In fact he stopped talking and there was silence and Kerr then handed Mundell more time to speak. This is a battle and it is no use just replying dismissively or heart-heartedly to points you have to argue strongly, convincingly and not let your opponent hog the speaking time.
the link’s working for me – good to hear that piece again
and good to have you back doing what you do best Stu, offending no one and upsetting no one, leaving aside editors, journalists, naysayers and so on of course
When talking about Scotland, Andrew Kerr (born and bred in Aberdeen, just a year above my sister at school – his dad was the minister at the local Kirk) said “them“.
Need we say more?
Mr Blundell along with many of his omnishambles party are simply doing what my late father would have called “opening his mouth and letting his belly rumble”.
Nothing of any significance emanating from their position just a lot of hot air.
A more combative approach?
What about a nice image with the caption
“I’m comfortable with the fact that Scotland ceased to exist after 1707”
David Mundell (Tory) current Scotland Officer Minister
Better Together Spokesperson
Elsewhere in the meejah, another Big Scary Number was in evidence. Scotland would need to create lots of quangos (Scotsman), 200 of them to be exact (Herald).
Well, leaving aside the quangos bit, maybe. But the thing about the UK Civil Service (generally speaking, a fine group of women and men doing their best and getting dogs’ abuse for their trouble) is that about 80% of the jobs are in just four departments. Those are Work & Pensions (100k), Treasury (75k, of which 72k in HMRC), Justice (69k) and Defence (60k). And Justice is a 99.9% England and Wales department. Now under those four department headings there are a lot of agencies and quangos, but that’s not really very important unless you think that a Scottish civil service must be organised as a mini-me clone of the UK one.
So, another claim that turns out to be about as solid as those 14,000 treaties? Well that is a surprise!
OK, got the link to work in internet explorer.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Yes/SNP are letting them run with the 14000 treaties shite to embarrass them more later on.
P.S. Source for Civil Service numbers by department: link to ons.gov.uk
@Beammeupscotty
Mr Blundell along with many of his omnishambles party are simply doing what my late father would have called “opening his mouth and letting his belly rumble”.
Nothing of any significance emanating from their position just a lot of hot air.
Maybe we should be grateful it’s just his mouth it’s emanating from!
@DougDaniel
Did not notice that. On the wider point about doublespeak I am convinced that the media and the No campaign are doing it deliberately (to quote Foulkes) so that the electorate in Scotland is as confused as possible. Rev Stu is right when he says something needs to be said by the Yes campaign about this soon. It needs to be made an issue of. We also had the Trident claims of numbers of jobs lost, with Baillie’s claims being a lot higher than the MOD’s, but the media still quoted the higher figure. Therefore, there is definitely a pattern emerging.
I agree that both the SNP and Yes Scotland should be more combabative. Positivity is one thing but we all knew that the British establishment would throw everything at us to preserve the union,….. sorry. incorporation. Yes Scotland and the SNP should be on a bloody war footing because that is what we effectively are in – and it’s the only chance we’ll have for a generation to win it.
March and demo calling for balanced broadcasting in Glasgow on Feb 23. There’s a facebook event with details but don’t seem to be able to paste here. Hope it will be well attended.
Years ago an advert was run on TV for Mazda houshold lightbulbs. Competitors were variously categorized as overactive bulbs that shone for a short period then fizzled out, and slow dim bulbs that just lazed along providing little light. And then there were MAZDA lamps – providing illumination to specification and steady service.
In the forefront of Scottish politics: McConnell has gone,and Gray, and Tiernan, and Lorraine Davidson, and Wallace,and Ms Alexander. The Viking, Mme Goldie.
Several more have sought sanctuary in another country, and seem content to simply shout insults -to our intelligence – over Hadrian’s wall.
Battle fatigue? Resolve fizzled out? And we are only just starting this campaign.
Presently we have Mundel and Davidson, Moore and Rennie Not too difficult to lampbulb categorize them? They seem to pair off remarkedly. Lamont is more difficult to categorize as we see and hear little of her. Poiitical daylight saving hours?
Perhaps poor weaponry and ammunition is disheartening the Better Together troops. They have fired off a few shells these past few weeks but they have flown past over our heads. The war correspondents have tried hard to talk up the damage inflicted but the public don’t appear to be alarmed. Worse the public are increasingly ignoring their printed despatches.
Constancy to purpose is proving damned annoying for an Unionist opponent armed only with myths and lies as weapons.
What I have taken issue with the BBC about is their methodical approach to propaganda. What they do is announce a big huge story that ‘somebody says’ and then report what that person says, invite them later to repeat that in an interview and the job is done. They never get to the root or question the statement. It has been left to WoS, Newsnet and the like to dismantle and disprove effectively. When I have complained of bias to the BBC they have always came back and said they were reporting facts. What they say is correct. They are reporting a fact that a person said something, so technically they are not biased. They are shrugging and saying ‘we are only doing our job, its not us that are saying it’. Where the bias comes in is the lack of balance and even there the BBC have already stated its not their job to be balanced. It stinks bigtime and will probably get worse.
The said David Gordon MUNDELL PC the Conservative Member of Parliament for the constituency of Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland regretfully happens to be my current sitting MP (mairs the pity).
However, I am jollied by the fact that we have more pandas in Scotland than sitting Tory MPs.
Here’s a link to the Facebook page of the Campaign for Balanced Broadcasting:
“Illuminate the Debate has been set up in order to shine a light on the quality and practice of the media with regards to the Scottish Independence Referendum debate. We shall be gathering outside of the Strathclyde University Student Union on John St from 10am and will march (10.30am) to St Enoch Square where the demo will take place. Folks of any political persuasion or none are welcome! Speakers to be announced in due course”
The one and only Tory MP from Scotland spouting rubbish on a rather mediocre television interview which the interviewer lost complete control of was embarrassing to watch. A low watt bulb indeed!
The fact that Mundell agreed that Scotland was extinguished in 1707 will not endear him to many Scots.
Is it a losing battle?
The Yes campaign always seem to be on the defence, always seem to be left trying to clean up and counter after shots have been fired. for how long is the powder being kept dry? Use it or lose it. the opposition have hd the run of the media and people’s opinions and it is working. People are parroting what they read in papers.
I thought Derek MackKay’s gentle and confident derision of everything Mundell said was excellent and just about right. Sometimes it not worth combating patent nonsense and the difference in the general public’s minds between 14,000, 9,000 or 2,000 treaties is not of any great significance.
What we are seeing however is the unionists now serving up more and more demonstrable lies – and more and more people recognising them as liars. That’ll do for me. We’re in this for the long haul and we’ve got this up our sleeves
I didn’t see the programme but it seems like the BBC are getting in the neck for their bias on Newsnicht regarding a cycling article.
link to road.cc
Some of the comments are from Little England.
Its good to see the criticism of bias coming from other quarters.
Notice that on Scotland tonight, Mundell conflates legal Opinion and legal Advice [at 3:36] unchallenged. Opinion of course can be published. Legal advice on the other hand is, for good reasons, normally confidential.
link to player.stv.tv
The 14,000 number was mentioned in the opening vt on Scotland Tonight, long before Mundell appeared. I literally shouted at the tv: “what are your journalists DOING?”
It’s like going into pc world and discovering you as the lowly consumer know so much more about the topic than the supposed expert. Isn’t it your job to know this stuff?
* sigh *
Elizabeth Broadley
“Nonetheless, Mundell is a good articulate speaker and he comes across convincing”
Madam your kindness to Mundell does you credit but the fact remains that he is a mendacious bumbling idiot.
The Scotland Tonight intro last night mentioned 14k figure. But then Mundell mentions 1400 during the exchange. (had to rewind the sky+ to check) 14k or 1.4k doesn’t really matter but it would be good if we had some MSM journalists who would fact check or at least challenge these inconsistent and dubious claims.
Would it not be deliciously ironic if English Tories, such as Cameron and Osbourne, decide they need to get rid of Scotland to win the general election ( I see they are 12 % points behind in the latest poll) while Scottish unionists, such as Mundell, both Davidsons, Curran, Darling, Murphy etc get increasingly shrill and abusive as we approach the referendum? While still having doubts about Scottish Skier’s theory I have to admit it does make me 😀 at the thought of it.
It concerns me slightly that the Yes campaign appears to be a reactive organisation instead of proactive. Just when exactly are we going to see some action instead of polite responses to those lies that the unionists are constantly putting out?
Here is my humble suggestion for a Hamish the Lion cartoon.
He is snarling and pawing at the ground, desperate to get at the usual suspects in the unionist camp, but is being held back by having a leash round his neck. Holding his leash is a character from the Yes campaign. The voice bubble coming out of his mouth is saying something like ”Calm down boy. There’s plenty of time. Just relax and let them make a mistake. No need to hurry.”
Meanwhile a clock is ticking.
I think that the basic difference between the Yes campaigners and the No britnats is the naysayers hearts are not in it, it’s just another ideology driven political argument/debate.
Mundell was spouting whatever he had been briefed on or thought/hoped would make a headline.
MacKay obviously had read and digested the report.
Last week on newsnight scot there were four reps from scottish political parties, three on screen one in the studio, as the camera panned round or even when the buffoon of labour mp was on camera he kept looking desperately down at his notes to see if there was any nuke/comment he could throw in. (Failed miserably)
Can only be favourable to us at the end of the day.
I fear for the YES campaign – seems misinformation and untruths may win the day for the NO campaign. Ordinary people do believe the MSM scare stories. I have more than one person telling me the oil was about to run out and what would Scotland do then. To say nothing about the Alex Salomond is a dictator belief. I despair for Scotland in the event of a NO vote. We need to step up our game – more door to door leaflets??
Can’t remember the labour ‘buffoons’ name on newsnicht scotland, don’t think l had ever seen him before. (Poor, poor ,poor effort).
I find it verydepressing that so many of our supporters and many on here don’t appear to understand that the YES campaign is energetically rebutting the nonsense and continually providing good constructive copy.
We can do nothing about the fact at the TV and the newspapers don’t carry it and we are more than aware that our army of support will win this referendum online, around the doors and in village halls all across the country.
They have no army. That’s where we will beat them.
Unfortunately my opinion is formed from talking to non political anoraks who are unlike myself.
However the phrase “they have no army” may be slightly hollow – their army is the MSM.
Maybe it is just me in that I , as yet, do not appreciate or understand the YES campaign. I live in hope that the truth and the YES campaign win the day – we need that win!!
Dave McEwan Hill
Quote “I find it verydepressing that so many of our supporters and many on here don’t appear to understand that the YES campaign is energetically rebutting the nonsense and continually providing good constructive copy.”
Well said. the simple fact is, that we are dealing with media mouthpieces that slavishly do London’s bidding, with no regard for honesty or facts. As you rightly point out, we will win this referendum with our supporters both online and door to door.
Have no fear, the BBC and Scottish media have been biased against the SNP since before they were elected in 2007, and they won then, and won again in 2011 with a bigger majority. The NO campaign have NO argument, just scare stories and hubris, and the electors of Scotland will see through it, just as they did in 2007 and 2011.
Judging by the pseudo legalese piffle in the report from our colonial masters in London yesterday (the nonsense about the treaty of union is the kind of tortuous ‘reasoning’ used by an undergraduate debater, it is supercilious flim-flam), it is clear to me, that there is NO positive case for the union, but more importantly, it is very clear the Tory led unionist cabal is feart.
Vote YES in 2014, for a better Scotland.
Scotrock, the YES campaign is alive and well, but surely you haven’t been waiting for our beloved London run BBC to tell you??
link to yesscotland.net
I have definitely seen a positive change at the start of this year with regards to the yes campaign making inroads.
I think it has been good to let the bettertogethers and MSM start with the crazy stories. You cannot run a negative campaign for so long without seriously getting found out eventually.
Lets take the crazy 23% support poll. I’m happy with that – When the next poll runs and show 40% is that not a massive increase that will have to be reported as such. The no cracks are showing. Stay positive.
@Scotrock
To say nothing about the Alex Salmond is a dictator belief.
To me that ‘claim’ is not a belief at all. It is basically because the No campaign are scared stiff of Salmond. It is like opposition fans abusing their opponents’ best or most influential player. They can’t handle Salmond, they never have in political debates. They fear him because he is also a very good tactician, and has lead the SNP to a place that they were not supposed to reach, i.e. the holding of a referendum on independence. I honestly think Salmond would get more concerned if he stopped getting abuse from opponents.
@gman –
Kin right.
The Scottish Office as-was, the BBC, and the rest of the MSM are now exposed as nothing more than garrisons – that’s what Pacific Quay will look and feel like a week on Saturday. Support those BBC staff who are working to rule, and support the push to ‘Illuminate the Debate’ in Glasgow on Feb 23rd.
We’re winning this thing – doesn’t matter what the polls say, cause even if they do show Yes in-front? The BBC/MSM will plop them down the auld memory-hole.
Heads-up, constantly – ninety-nine per-cent of fights are settled via steady eye-contact, no violence required.
Nae blinking!
Remember people, this is a WAR. We are fighting for the rights of our people and our country. Hold steady, talk to friends neighbours, colleagues they may mock, walk away but generally there will be others who will listen. Be confident and always remember there may be others listening to your statements without talking part.
Personally I have been fighting this war for over 50 years and never have we been so powerful and so close to a victory. We will feel despair and anger at their lies and misrepresentations of our cause for that is what it is to me. A cause worthy of the name My parents fought for this cause and died without seeing its conclusion. I do not intend to let them down by stopping now. It willl get worse my friends, make no mistake about that but despite them we will prevail.
VOTE YES SUAS ALBA
O/T some of you may find this webchat with the FM interesting
link to gransnet.com
That picture of Mundell; it looks as if he is saying DOH!
I think ,and I have said this previously that I believe that the YES campaign is waiting for the Scottish Government’s white paper before they “get stuck in”. I am of the opinion that Alex Salmond,will come out at the right time and start to show them (the NO mob) up for what they are,I really think that there are a lot more mistakes to come from Westminster. There has been,I believe manipulation of the opinion polls,as people like to be on the winning side so the polls always try to show the unionists are winning,subtle but it works especially with those that cant be bothered to think things through.
Yes, it’s important to stay on a positive footing, spread the word, keep up with the facts, have key points at the drop of a hat to point out to the don’t knows. They are following only what they are told by the daily’s on their way to work. Staying informed, this site and others like it, are absolutely essential for that, and it’s a matter of opening other’s up to the idea of thinking for themselves and not taking what the mass media say, as being in anyway fair or balanced.
Here’s a thought. I wonder what percentage of the treaties (whatever their number actually is) are treaties that – given a chance – Scots might not actually want to sign? All the debate is about the sheer hassle of having to do all that paperwork, but might there not be the silver lining of getting rid of some real crap?
Yes Salmond is a clever cookie, I reckon he and his crew know exactly how to play this regards stupid comments from the No lot and the negative unbalanced coverage at the mo.
Eminem aka ‘Slim Shady’ will be headlining at Bellahouston Park, Glasgow, this coming August.
Picture this: when he sings ‘Lose Yourself’ (no doubt in the pissing rain) this is the intro –
“If you had one shot…
One opportunity…
To seize everything you ever wanted…
In one moment…
Would you capture it?
Or just let it slip?”
At that moment, tens of thousands raise their saltires on extended tent-poles, and send a message to the hundreds of thousands who can’t afford to be there – even if Eminem doesn’t ‘get’ what it means, the viewing audience will.
That’s one example of how we can – and will – circumvent the MSM shutdown. They can only ignore us up to a point. It’s our job to exploit each and every avenue open to us.
The final spoken line to that same song is:
“You can do anything you put your mind to man…”
(BTW, Marshall Mathers AKA Eminem, is 41 years old.)
It looks like the petition I had suggested would simply be duplicating an existing effort, Facebook page of the Campaign for Balanced Broadcasting. I wish someone might have thought of telling me before now.
@ Scots Renewables or anyone else;
Is there an alternative link, or would it be possible to create one for those of use who do not use Facebook of MySpace?
In case anyone’s interested (so all of us then), the Times’ Ipsos Mori poll tonight has Yes at 34% (up 4% from 30%) and No at 55% (down 3% from 58%). So that’s a swing of 3.5% towards Yes.
Now, what are the chances of it actually being reported this way (good news for Yes whichever way you look at it – we’re up, they’re down), rather than “Yes still 21% behind No”?
The existential threat to the successful Prosecution of the cause of Scottish independence is now and always has been the media and in particular the BBC.
Broken record, broken record – “It’s the BBC stupid”
Though the Unionists own the megaphone, there are strategies (previously delineated herein) available to counter the effectiveness of the propaganda, by turning that very asset against itself .
With respect to Mr Mundell, the first question he should have been asked is: ” Do you agree with the published legal opinion that Scotland ceased to exist in 1707, when it was incorporated into the continuing English state: yes or no?”
“Do you further agree that we are then, all Englishmen and women: yes or no?”
“If you agree with the opinion, how can you be the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, when you have accepted that Scotland does not exist?”
“If you do not agree with the opinion (which will be the foundation of your Government’s policy on matters Scottish from now on), will you resign from the Government which has left you in this untenable, and indeed farcical, position?”
From the Hootsman:
Westminster bans word ‘separate’ after SNP complaints
link to scotsman.com
Where does this now leave the UK Governments report – which is now available to download again – don’t know if it has been tinkered with in the intervening time but it would be interesting to know.
Doug Daniel says:”[T]he Times’ Ipsos Mori poll tonight has Yes at 34% (up 4% from 30%) and No at 55% (down 3% from 58%). So that’s a swing of 3.5% towards Yes. .Now, what are the chances of it actually being reported this way . . ?”
No chance, of course.
The headline will be: “Separatists humiliated in new poll”, and the lede will add:
“SNP Cabinet ponders “slippery” Eck’s future. Being pressured to resign, say insiders”
The article continues:
“Wiley Scottish Executive generalissimo, Alex Salmond, dodged reporters today in the wake of a devastating new poll that indicates the number of Scots opposing the break-up of Britain is on track to reach 75% before polling day, 21 months from now.”
“LibDem leader Willie Rennie said, ‘This really is a crushing blow to the separatist’s leader. Salmond is a master bamboozler, but the good sense of the people has prevailed in the face of all the separatist trickery, and intimidation from their cybernat thugs.”
“Westminster bans word ‘separate’ after SNP complaints . . Where does this now leave the UK Governments report”
Where does it leave all the reports of Ian Davison’s Scottish Affairs Committee? They still appear on the Westminster web site. Someone should complain! 🙂
7th Report – The Referendum on Separation for Scotland: Separation shuts shipyards
The Referendum on Separation for Scotland: making the process legal
The Referendum on Separation for Scotland – uncorrected evidence
3rd Report – The Referendum on Separation for Scotland: a multi-option question?
And on and on and . .
@Christian Wright
This from Pete Wishart on twitter earlier:
“This has massive issues for the Scottish Affairs Committee. They will now have to withdraw the term “separate” from all their publications.”
link to twitter.com
Mundell reminds me of Grima Wormtongue from The Two Tower’s in Lord of the Rings.
He shafted his own people at every turn, and did a continual drip, drip, drip of information poison into the ears of the very same people that fed him, clothed him, educated him, while he works for a dark master in another land.
I just can’t get this into my head. How can a person openly tell wicked LIES to their own people? How can they do that? I really don’t know how they can look at themselves in the mirror…
@Adrian B – if the Scottish affairs committee were indeed compelled to remove all occurrences of the words SEPARATE SEPARATIST SEPARATION, those weighty tomes they produced will be reduced to pamphlets.
Much the same with Ian Davidson who, were you to remove the excess adipose tissue, would be reduced to a Smurf with naught but hot air holding him together.
The rough bounds:
How’s about this for a cartoon idea. Alastair Darling firing arrows with rubber suckers on the end at Alex Salmond whilst a media figure in the foreground triumphs ‘another devastating blow!’. Meanwhile Salmond, with a few rubber suckers stuck to him, is unconcernedly
whispering in the ear of an attentive family and holding out a key to them, with a house in the background and the word ‘Scotland’ written on it?
PS: I wish I could draw!!
Rev, as suggested
It is not legal advice from the government’s own law officers – the UK government have not published that, and indeed may not have any.
“The question for everyone in the No campaign is whether they agree with the finding in yesterday’s paper – as Tory minister David Mundell does – that Scotland was ‘extinguished’ by the 1707 Union.”
Not only a more combatitive approach – we have the seeds of a long running campaign!!