When Fact Checks Fail
Wings Over Scotland isn’t the only website dedicated to scrutinising the truthfulness of things claimed by politicians and media pundits. There’s the widely-respected and diligent FullFact.org, there’s Scotland’s own The Ferret, and there’s the BBC’s Reality Check (which frequently takes the more unconventional approach of, er, not making a finding either way about what the reality of things is).
And then there’s Channel 4’s FactCheck, which we’re going to generously assume had a liquid lunch yesterday and was a little under the weather.
Because not only is the conclusion that it reached on the subject of an independent Scotland having to use the Euro utter nonsense that’s been debunked roughly 1000 times in the last six years, it doesn’t even agree with itself.
It was triggered by an extraordinary display of arrogant rudeness by Kay Burley of Sky News the previous day, who shouted all over SNP MP Ian Blackford and then accused him of “mansplaining” when he calmly and politely attempted to correct her while being flagrantly and unashamedly in possession of a penis. The monster.
A stream of actual experts (along with hundreds of angry Scots) duly and patiently informed Burley of her error on social media, to which she responded with the grace and humility one would expect from an impartial news broadcaster.
But for some reason, C4’s FactCheck then decided it ought to weigh in on her side, but without bothering to actually, y’know, check any facts.
Because its first assertion was this:
And that’s going to come as quite a surprise to the EU, which on the very page the C4 FactCheck article actually links to says this:
And also this:
(To save you clicking to make those pics more legible, the highlighted sections say “Participation in ERM II is voluntary” and “it is up to individual countries to calibrate their path towards the euro and no timetable is prescribed”.)
It’s quite a piece of “fact-checking” to read the unambiguous words “participation in ERM II is voluntary” and then interpret them to mean that participation in ERM II is not voluntary. Yet that’s exactly what happened.
An obligation which is voluntary is not an obligation at all. The EU makes absolutely no attempt to enforce the “requirement” to join the Euro. One-third of the EU’s member states do not use the Euro and most have no meaningful intention to do so.
Some have been members for literally decades without adopting the currency, despite having no formal “opt-out” as the UK and Denmark do. Denmark is in fact the only EU country which currently is in ERM II, and it has a specific exemption from ever joining the Euro.
But “FactCheck” wasn’t done there. As well as carrying on making entirely groundless assertions, it decided to throw in another endlessly-debunked lie just for fun.
The claim about Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia is simply complete rubbish, as we’ve already established. If you want to use the “road” metaphor, it’s like saying someone standing on the M1 motorway just outside Watford is “on the road to” Newcastle, where the highway terminates as the A1(M).
Which is to say, it might be accurate in an abstract technical sense but in reality it’s meaningless drivel. The ROAD might go there (indeed, pretty much every road in the UK ultimately goes everywhere in the country), but the person who’s on it may have not the slightest intention of ever doing so. They might only be going to Luton, and nobody is ever going to try to force them to travel any further.
The EU really couldn’t have made its position about that very much clearer, with the President of the European Commission having declared himself “amazed by much of what is written in the press” about joining the single currency:
But then comes the double-whammy:
Oh dear God. Because as well as proclaiming as fact the opinion that Scotland avoiding the Euro indefinitely would be “unlikely” – without offering a single reason why – “FactCheck” knows fine well that the other sentence there is a total lie , as it goes on to explain in the next two paragraphs.
So Channel 4 has asserted, and then immediately disproved, two ancient myths, before inexplicably announcing that they’re actually both true. And false. But somehow still true anyway.
It’s an embarrassing shambles from a broadcaster that many independence supporters have generally regarded as the least biased and the least incompetent of the UK’s broadcast news outlets, and we can only hope that some manner of sense prevails and the entire farce is quietly fed into an electronic shredder before too long.
I really have respect for Ian Blackford. He is always very calm and collected and will do great things during the next Indyref campaign.
Someone in the employ of CH4 actually wrote that shite and they should be sacked forthwith.
Whilst I agree that C4 news is the *least* biased they are still part of the british establishment when push come to shove.
Scotland can’t trust ANY of the UK’s broadcast media.
Support our own online folks like Broadcasting Scotland and Independence live instead 🙂
So this is the go-to Euro debunking link from now on? Handy!
It’s almost like we’re being helped in our Indyref2 preparations 😀
There is a strong default assumption within the ‘London Bubble’ that the SNP assertions are always incorrect or invalid, and Scottish independence is a stupid idea. Accordingly, anyone from within their ‘Bubble’ disagreeing with the SNP must be automatically correct.
Facts, data, legalities, just don’t come into the thought process.
Thankyou for stating this so clearly.
So much damage done with this ‘fake news’ type drivel C4. What were you thinking, get the kids off the computer & rectify for your reputation; and do it now!
Scotland can use any tradeable currency it wishes, and that is just fact.
The problem I think is that everyone is still in stop the Scots having another indy ref mode. They cannot afford to lose Scotland for very obvious financial and supply reasons.
I don’t think that indy ref has ever been dormant. Like us ,the establishment have continued to try and keep Scotland in a box since the referendum.
The problem they have is that it becomes all too obvious that the promises and assurances given to Scotland to vote No, was nothing more than a tissue of lies and deceit.
Indyref2 for Westminster started the day after the result of indy ref 1 The surge in SNP membership rattled them completely, and their ensuing tactic of ignoring our representatives in Parliament to deprive us of a voice has also badly backfired.
They have had their best blows turned on themselves and now it is our turn.
These conclusions by channel four were the result of fact checking with Labour in Scotland’s finance spokesperson
James (sit down) Kelly
Monica Lennon told me, Naw she did! Honest!
I have less grace.
*Channel 4 News are fucking idiots for spouting such pish”, is my reply.
That feels better.
Ian Blackfoot should have calmly and collectedly called Burley a liar.
Sounds like Schrodinger’s euro/pound to me.
Lie Mode….the default setting for British Nationalists.
Blackfoot
Damn the correcting on this phone!
Kay Burley’s “controversy” track record speaks for itself. It’s clear that she’s an arrogant, loud mouthed wee ignoramus. How she’s managed to hang onto her job with Channel 4 is beyond me.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
…………….
The petition is being mentioned on BBC news. Approaching 800,000 signatures.
I hadn’t realised it was “quite” as clear as this, so thanks for the sources. My only addition to this would be that not only have Sweden been in the EU for more than two decades without adopting the Euro, they actually had a referendum about adopting it in 2003 and decided not to. Reversing that would be necessary before they could even contemplate it, no matter what the EU might think.
Proof positive that, when it comes to Scotland and other foreign entities, British Nationalism really does interfere with basic thought processes, such as the use of logic and understanding what words mean.
O/T Sorry on first post can anyone tell me why I am not getting through to the petition?
is Kay Burley the Black Knight?
“electronic shredder” reads as memory hole.
Joining the ERM & adopting the € may well be the best course of action for us, depending on factors which are mainly out of our control.
Successful socially progressive countries are anathema to the neo-liberal lizards who run the global show at present, and safety in numbers is generally a prudent policy.
If we hit the hydrocarbon & renewable jackpot’s, as i suspect we will, selling energy to our near friends and neighbours in € would put powerful noses out of joint.
SNP needs to monitor Sky Channel Four and ITV as well as BBC coverage of the third largest grouping at Westminster and second largest political party in whole of UK. The majority of London based broadcasters are actively campaigning against Scottish self government.
O/T 2nd class stamp going up by 3p on Sunday.
You can save money and order Scottish stamps here (any quantity.. no postage if ordering 100 or over)
link to shop.royalmail.com
Whenever they try this argument I wonder what’s so bad about joining the euro anyway?
Thanks for debunking this myth yet again, Rev. My jaw hit the floor when I saw Channel 4’s post.
But maybe they’ve done us a favour, the fools, as they’ve proved to everyone that they’ve got no credibility and are as corrupt as the BBC when it comes to an independent Scotland. Their rookie error will come in handy in the months ahead.
Channel 4 news is UK to the bone. Misleading at best with anything to do with Scotland and maybe just more smug and self righteous than others in the MSM.
link to youtube.com
Never forget Kay Burley has form!
She described a YES supporter as “a bit of a knob” on air.
She then went on to described a group as “campaigning against England”.
Both here …
link to youtube.com
Burley appears to be a fanatical English Nationalist who can’t put her prejudices aside in order to act professionally and carry out her highly paid job. The ‘argument’ was about the Euro, but it could easily have been about any other issue. The contrast between her ‘banshee screeching’ and Ian Blackford’s cool, calm, and informed response could not have been greater.
Watching PMQs and obvious that Tories and Labour do not want to mention UK Brexit chaos
When a country applies to join the EU, the accession treaty, which has 35 chapters (i.e. conditions for membership) are individually negotiated, and not one of them states anything about committing to or adopting the Euro. link to ec.europa.eu
If members want to join the eurozone (also referred to as the euro area), then they would of course join the ERM, and although the Convergence Report that Stu refers to above, states that all members must commit to the Euro, while deciding their own timetable, it still doesn’t sound like even committing to the euro is a precursor for joining the EU. The euro zone, yes, but not the EU.
C4 is partially funded via the BBC/govt tax so they say what they’re told to say regarding indyref2 – just like all the MSM “newspaper” who take “local democracy” money from the BBC/govt. If they don’t then ultimately they won’t get paid.
You’re wasting your time with ANY of the MSM in the UK & for the life of me I can’t understand why RevStu seems so surprised….
Channel 4 Fact Check has updated their article –
‘The SNP have directed us to a press release by the European Commission that includes a comment from President Juncker: “I don’t intend to force countries to join the euro if they are not willing or not able to do so”. In the same statement, the Commission reiterated Mr Juncker’s earlier comment that “All but two of our Member States are required and entitled to join the euro once they fulfil all conditions.”’
You’ve got to assume that there are persons in Channel4’s Fact Check team who are genuinely fair and capable of dispassionate analysis.
But we know that there are – confirmed by Alan Little in BBC Scotland’s ‘Referendum’ programme – those in the media, in the south of England and indeed throughout the population of England who know so little of Scotland that what they do know is taken to be all there is to know, that the whole idea of an independent Scotland is self-evidently ridiculous, and therefore any argument advanced in its favour is based on ignorance and failure to understand.
Thus on the Euro, a TV reporter with no knowledge of EU issues and finance can correct an SNP MP who has. And if that MP points out her errors – however gently – that’s a challenge to self-assumed authority, and in peevish irritation the company’s backroom team tries to have the last word by online reiteration.
The National has been doing a pretty good job on it’s front covers of having a go at the BBC’s bias. Maybe time for it to start highlighting Ms Burley’s bias and calling her out on it?
It’s that tone they use. They’ve just got such an enshrined core belief that anyone who thinks Scotland can be a normal country is a raving lunatic.
The Euro is bad, we’d be forced to use it, its a bad thing if Indy Scotland uses it, we’d have no choice etc.
When he calmly explains we wouldn’t be forced to use the Euro and we’ll keep using the pound for the time being, she retorts ‘so why would you want to stay with the pound?’
Damned if we do, damned if we don’t.
I’d immediately appoint Kevin Bridges as SNP Spokesperson on all things financial. I’ve always liked his currency suggestion, the Smackeroonie!!!
Has anybody sent the link to this piece by the Rev to Jon Snow or Krishnan?
Would be nice to see a full apology on the CH4 News later on 😉
Expecting this kind of stuff from the BBC and the usual suspects, but really disappointed in Channel 4. Of course, they too are excessively London-centric and pro-UK establishment, but far better than anything the BBC does. Disappointed, nonetheless.
Rev, now that you have put the “joining the Euro” pish to bed, be prepared for the “Spanish veto” pish that will be along shortly.
They really didn’t look very hard…
…or even at all. 🙄
What a horrid woman
Well sorted by Blackford
Kay Burley has two problems in my opinion.
The first is that her somewhat limited talent is getting increasingly overshadowed by her much larger ego.
The second problem appears to be that she has allowed her prejudices to direct her understanding of a subject. You see, I think many so-called ‘journalists’ in London have been repeatedly told by British Nationalists in both Labour and Tory parties, that indy Scotland would need to use the pound. I do not doubt they are then directed (very selectively) to the section of the EU website which states that new EU members must commit to adopting the Euro. This suffices to confirm their pre-adopted viewpoint, that Scotland would indeed have to join the Euro. Yet because of their prejudices and lack of proper research, they fail to notice the technicalities of Euro adoption, and the wholly voluntary nature of ERM membership.
This is the problem. As alluded to earlier in the week by ex-BBC Alan Little of the preconceived notions about Scotland which exist in London. These so-called ‘journalists’ catch a wee snippet which confirms their prejudices, and therefore do not properly check the FACTS. I do not doubt for one second, that preconceived prejudices are behind the clear nonsense which has been published on the Channel 4 news laughingly titled ‘fact check’ page.
This is the fundamental problem. So-called ‘journalists’ in London know next to nothing about what has been happening in Scotland, and precious little about how freaking often people in Scotland have laughed out loud at this puerile ‘must adopt the Euro’ p*sh. The other problem is that, as shown by Kay Burley, they genuinely THINK they know, to the point of arguing in the most unprofessional way, with those who actually know the FACTS.
Over and above all that, Scotland can use its pound sterling, as it is before independence. It belongs after all, to Scotland as well as any other countries of the UK. In fact the GBP can be used by any country in the world, and they don’t need to ask London. In addition, Scotland can choose to use whatever tradeable currency it wishes. It could use the US Dollar, as several countries do. It could even CHOOSE to use the Euro (and why not), after joining the ERM for two years.
ChannelFour is a disgrace to journalism. It was once a channel with integrity, but became part of the British Nationalist establishment many years ago, and particularly went Britnat during the independence referendum, just like the pretendy lefty rag the Guardian.
Journalists are persecuted around the world for their work to get the truth out, some are tortured and murdered. Just look at Latin America, it’s horrendous. That is why I personally absolutely abhor outright lies like this.
The facts are there, yet the agenda of these excuses for journalism, is to actually con the people, in this case it’s to suit a British Nationalist narrative. Scotland is supposedly a drain on the people of rUK, yet, they don’t want Scotland to attain independence.
It’s a case of gas lighting Scotland, Scotland’s people and the SNP now. It’s just sickening.
Shame on channel four for lying, and covering up the truth,
an assault on Scotland and an assault on factual journalism and truthful journalists.
Iain says:
Agreed. Not a dissimilar view to that which I expressed above.
We usually make the assumption that challenges to our quest for self determination are driven by imperialism. Truth is, many attacks are simply based on lack of knowledge about Scotland, or indeed the UK. To many, throughout these isles, the idea of Scotland taking a rightful place as a country among the nations of the world is literally ridiculous and therefore worthy of ridicule.
In WM we hear that ignorance directed towards our MPs from across the benches. Remarks which we see as stupid and ill founded no doubt seem clever to the perpetrators!
The media takes the same approach by default.
Perhaps there is actually a tactic here. While there is no cure for imperial nationalism, there certainly is a cure for pig ignorance – education at every opportunity! Brexit is opening eyes and ears throughout the UK, more people may be receptive to any and all challenges that the UK London centric model is the only valid one. It is happening. We hear so often of English folks saying they opposed Scotland leaving in 2014 but now they wouldn’t blame us for wanting out!
Why would iScotland not want to join the eurozone?
@The Tree of Liberty
Oh no! Not the Spanish Inquisition thing. 🙂
PS:
As mentioned above it’s all quiet North of the wall at FMQs.
Best not frighten the horses eh! I mean there’s nothing going on constitutionally that’s rearing its ugly head.
Television journalism doesn’t exist in the UK.
A better description would be that it is broadcasting fake news and propaganda in a way that is designed to make it look like it is genuine unbiased information.
Don’t suppose there’s any point in informing the Regulators ?
If watching Prime Ministers questions was mandatory for all Scots, the way Blackford is treated in the chamber might raise a few eyebrows
It’s going to be a horrid campaign.
OT The A50 revocation petition is back up and flying
Edinburgh North and Leith
Deidre Brock MP
Scottish National Party
4,868 signatures
4.38% of 111,065 constituents
The response has been phenomenal and only just begun.
Tree of liberty at 1233pm,
Indeed. We will have the ‘spanish veto myth, which was NEVER actually true’ swiftly followed by ‘but Shetland will keep all the oil and decide to become independent, which is nonsense’, then followed up by ‘the oil is running out’, or the oil is too volatile in value’, or ‘their will be barbed wire fences at Gretna Green, and border guards’, or ‘England will re-build Hadrians wall (completely ignoring the actual FACT that Hadrians wall runs some 100 miles SOUTH of Scotland – right through the middles of Newcastle upon Tyne – hence the place called Wallsend, at the end of the wall in newcastle), or we might have ‘Scotland will be booted out of NATO’, or ‘Scotland will have to join the ‘back of the queue for EU admission’ – although the EU has confirmed their actually is NO queue.
I have no doubt we will see them all. Perhaps revstu might like to do a kind of indy myth bingo, so we can keep track of all the old lies used this time around. It’ll be fun.
Channel 4 is like Corbyn, everybody should be free and Independent apart from Scotland. i used to like Jon Snow but he showed his ignorance and arrogance during Indyref 1. I dont believe any of the MSM outlets, even RT spouts the Brit Establisment agenda during Interviews.
What can I say ….
Oh yes … they don’t like it up em Capt’n Manwaring!
link to youtube.com
I am convinced even stronger than before that the pressure cooker full of shit is on the verge of exploding and no one in the Britnat kitchen has a clue what to do to stop it! 😀
They, the Britnats, know the games a bogey now and they have absolutely NOTHING to offer up in response to OUR demands for independence other than you MUST use the Euro!
It’s a funny old game, as some have said in the past. First it was you can NOT have a currency union with US. Now it is you MUST have a currency union with us otherwise you MUST use the Euro!
Am I the only one who wishes the Britnats would just make their bloody minds up about what THEY want US to use? 😀
If THIS is what the Britnats are pushing BEFORE indey ref 2 actually begins then it appears, to me at least, that the Britnats have absolutely nothing left in their armoury! 😀
What we have is a failure to cummunicate,
The EU countries and all their representatives go out of their way to speak English to *British* politicians *British journalists* *British* television reporters indeed Scottish Welsh and Irish politicians go out of their way to speak English to all these same people, yet still the *British* suffer from a failure to communicate coupled with instant memory loss and a propensity for deafness
Are words in English too difficult to understand for the *British* it seems the rest of us manage to understand each other fine whatever language we speak
@Tree of Liberty
Pretty much.
Buy y’know whut? ANY time some Britnat rolls out the rinse and repeat horse shit from indyref1. ANY TIME AT ALL. All folks need do is point to the biblical galactof**k that IS Brexit and the epic failure to deliver on ANY damn thing promised to Scotland’s population from 2014.
The next words used at that point are very, very, very, etc. important. So I hope some Britnat policy gonks are paying close attention, because you’re going to hear this… A LOT.
Those words are (drum roll) – Why on earth should we ever again believe a single word you have to say? ON ANYTHING.
Scotland is a great natural resource for the British state, all that land, water, oil, eco-energy potential, just a pity about the surly inhabitants.
Similarly, France is a wonderful country, but Oh the awful French!
As for the Spanish, Italians, Germans……..
The Brit staters see the world through venerable 19th century cataracts, her Britannic majesty requests and requires etc.
Brexit surgery would bring much clearer vision to the subject, were the subject to admit to having sight impairment in the first place.
I know IPSOS is a waste of space and a signed up member of Britnat buffoonery but if a Channel has been informed that they have lied and irrefutable proof of this has been presented and they still refuse to correct it, I would have thought sending this on to IPSOS with details of your correspondence puts them in a position that they can’t get out of.
I’d also like to see SNP start any future interview on any subject with clarification that they knowingly and deliberately lied, and continue to lie and here is where you can see proof to set your own mind at ease.
There is no TV, Radio, or Newspaper columnist that could claim to be a journalist. Plenty of propaganda peddlers happy to follow order for large salaries.
You did it again Rev,what you do best.
Ch4 as others have pointed out are just another part of the britnat media.
None of them even think nor know very much about what is going on in Scotland, even fewer know what the groundswell is here, and Indy is rising, albeit not quick enough for me.
However that will change drastically when campaigning really starts.
The media(let’s call them that) will be spouting more and more pish. But where they lose, is we have heard it all before.
Before we are much older we shall be glad of any currency be it Pound Euro Bawbee or Button just as long as it can be used to buy what little is in the shops, thanks to Brexit.
There’s nothing new here unfortunately. Channel 4 News, including the otherwise estimable Jon Snow, has always had a sneering and patronising view of Scots and independence. JS does come from a very well entrenched establishment British family after all.
BBC Politics Live programme hosted by Andrew Neil: Joanna Cherry is invited on at the last minute and asked about the Revocation Petition. She makes it clear that it’s got nothing to do with her (and the SNP), although she signed it. The girl is on the ball. She then starts to mention that she was one of six Scottish Parliamentarians who won the A50 revocation case in Europe. He talks over her to shut her up. I mean to say they, the BBC, don’t want people thinking that the Scots aren’t stupid, now do they? She then gets a couple of comments in, such as if it goes down to the No Deal wire next week they’ve got a way out of the shambles. He then involves Farage (in Brussels) in the discussion. Farage who gets more time to speak (and lie) than Joanna Cherry. The BBC’s token gesture to quashing the SNP bias allegations.
Someone should fact check that Channel 4 actually has a fact check function or just a support your local stupid journalist facility.
I missed all this because I rarely watch TV news. It is not a good source of primary information from any of the channels. Smug, shallow and badly researched. A vehicle for opinion rather than news.
Like others I am sad to see C4 News standards slipping. To be fair, as I have pointed out on Twitter, their confusion is not just about Independence but anything north of postcode N1
link to twitter.com
@Petra 1:29pm
Joanna Cherry has three strikes against her, first she’s a woman, second she’s a smart well educated woman, third she’s a representative of Scotland
There is of course the fourth unwritten strike, she’s way way smarter than Andrew Neil and that practically disqualifies anybody no matter who they represent
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this, but sorry in case.
Scotland would not be simply joining the EU, we would be rejoining after having been forceably ejected against our will. We would have a different status to a country that has never be in it and thus applying for a new membership. (Not that a new country would have to (could) join the € straight away anyway.) There would of course be new conditions to be agreed on by both sides, as Scotland is not the UK of GB and NI, but readiness for membership is already there in full, as a recent unvoluntary ejected member state.
@McBoxheid 1:36pm
We’d probably get new a customer only discount
Dr Jim says:
21 March, 2019 at 1:12 pm
What we have is a failure to cummunicate,
———————————————-
To take that a step further in a Guns’N’Roses analogy. (I can’t link to utube from another country.)
We don’t need no civil war.
Unfortunately, the Tory civil war has spilled into the UK parliament and is now awaiting warmer weather before it spills into the English cities. Unless this Brexit farce is sorted, I think the larger conurbations in England may well burst into the flames of civil unrest.
Channel 4 making an arse of itself, but they will buckle down on the misinformation. That’s just what the BritNat media do, in fact it will now be a reference point for the BritNat No supporters, I believe I’ve already seen the Tories referencing it in a tweet.
The No side have no morals when it comes to lying, we should already know this from 2014.
They are already using another quote from Juncker, but I suspect it is from a translation and this may be ambiguous (translation have level of interpretation by the translator). My interpretation was that he was saying only two countries actually have an opt-out and never need to commit to joining, the rest are committed to and can join when they feel it is right for them.
Radical suggestion,
Scotland retains it’s share of the UK’s nationalised central bank, ie the Bank of England and as such get’s a seat on the governing body. With that seat it gets input into the setting of interest rates and other decisions. Ironically independence could give Scotland more control over Sterling than it does now.
No Deal isn’t the only default option in play. Unless Westminster plan some kind of force majeure where they retain or deny Scotland an equitable share of the joint assets out taxes and revenue have paid for they’ll either have to name a price for our share or accept we exercise our ownership sights.
[…] Wings Over Scotland When Fact Checks Fail Wings Over Scotland isn’t the only website dedicated to verifying the truthfulness […]
Dan Snow has maybe got at uncle Jon.
Stuart Cosgrove on the John Beattie Show pointing out that the BBC always cut away from Ian Blackford when he rises to speak at PMQs. As the representative of Scottish voters in Westminster he should be heard and viewers should not have to change channels to hear what he has to say.
Good for Stu Cosgrove for pointing this out.
Do we not mark down Chan 4 ‘fact check’ site as a fake news source, looks like it to me. Of course it then tarnishes the whole of Ch 4 News as a reliable source of information. I’m sure they probably don’t care, their loyalties are elsewhere I suspect.
Complaint to Channel 4 duly sent (using the substance of Stu’s post). Losing trust ought to matter to them, so I made sure of putting that bit in. Maybe they’ll get the idea.
Have to say their complaints website is a damned sight more friendly than the BBC’s – got the job done in 5mins., whereas the BBC will take you an hour. There is hope. (Mibbees.)
Why would the UK be exempt from joining the Euro? because they didn’t have to and neither would Scotland. Their argument has more holes in it than a colander. Even if Scotland were ‘new’ to the EU they still wouldn’t have to join the Euro. Why this has to be stated, again and again, defies logic.
Off Topic.
FIRST MINISTER’S QUESTIONS.21/03/2019
Scottish Parliament TV:
link to tinyurl.com
Kay Burley will say whatever she is briefed to say or read off the teleprompter.
She is working for the UK version of Fox news.
If someone put it up on the screen that “I will now cover myself in custard and sing Silent Night” she would read it out.
Detailed explanation of joining the Euro and why Indy Scotland will join EFTA rather than EU on Independence Day.
link to businessforscotland.com
Some years ago the Euro-sceptic Michael Portillo made some tv programmes in which he visited several countries and “offered” the people he spoke to the chance to return to their original currencies from the Euro. As I recall, even the Greeks chose to keep the Euro.
Would it be such a bad thing to use the euro? Possibly a lot of Scots might think so because the media keep telling us it would be. It’s “foreign” after all! Germany seem to have done alright with it.
Geeo Full fact check No.1 : Are you in the uk?
If yes, turn out your pockets, are they full of Euros ?
Yes: yer a liar
No: well, there ye go.
McBoxheid says:
21 March, 2019 at 1:36 pm
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this, but sorry in case.
Scotland would not be simply joining the EU, we would be rejoining after having been forceably ejected against our will. We would have a different status to a country that has never be in it and thus applying for a new membership…
I firmly believe if we go about this correctly, we will achieve a transition where Scotland never actually leaves the EU to begin with.
If we successfully dispute UK Parliamentary Sovereignty before the deadline expires, Scotland will be a freestanding soveregn entity still inside the EU by virtue of the fact it hasn’t left, where Westminster has no colonial authority to lawfully drag Scotland out, and where the EU has no lawful mechanism to push us out.
Scotland’s integration into Europe from within will create it’s own precedent, and yes, it will require negotiation, agreement and ratification, but NONE of those protocols actually require Scotland to exit and rejoin. There is no reason why an inverted version of Article 50 could not be agreed between Scotland and the EU whereby Scotland might have (say) 2 years to agree membership terms, but if such terms cannot reach agreed compromise within the two years, then Scotland would exit by default and reapply.
In essence, Scotland’s integration into Europe could be Brexit in reverse; not an interim Withdrawal Agreement but the reciprocal, an interim Convergence Agreement pending fuller discussions, negotiations and appropriate ratification, but the general parameters of membership already agreed in principle.
That is not to preclude the possibility that Scotland might exit and rejoin for the sake of simplicity, but by prior arrangement, we need never step outside ECJ jurisdiction, the Single Market or Customs Union, or break any continuity in the Four Freedoms. The entire process can be an internal matter in the EU.
Far from being the more complicated option, I would argue and propose that Scotland interests and Europes interests are better served when Scotland remains in the EU without ever leaving, but NOT as a Continuer or Seceding State as convention would suggest, but through a bespoke new precedent set to resolve unprecedented circumstances arising.
Just to add… The EU has a presumption against seceding States finding their way into Europe, so we might even be surprised just how enthusiastic the EU might be to accommodate a bespoke integration process which is unique to Scotland’s circumstances, – especially if sets no wider precedents which serve to further the interests of secessionist movements around Europe which potentially threaten disintegration of EU member states. Scotland’s path might be a path nobody else can follow.
O/T Petition to revoke Article 50 has just crashed at 998,600 signatures?
O/T
When push comes to shove, what will they do?
link to twitter.com
Back again and now exceeds 1,000,000 LOL
link to archive.fo
O/t
Petition now over 1 M signatures.
Leadsom may well get her wish yet!
Sent off to C4 complaints dept.
Breath not being held.
……….
Channel 4 joining the liars at BBC and SKY News.
They recently performed a ‘fullfact’ check on Sky news’s Kay Burley’s claims an indy Scotland would absolutely have to join the Euro, despite it being EU POLICY to NOT FORCE ANYONE to do any such thing. (How many Euros do people in the uk currently use for instance?)
Here is C4’s position utterly destroyed by Wings over Scotland, using ACTUAL FACTS, and incredibly, using FACTS from THE VERY SAME SOURCES C4 claim to have used.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
I DEMAND that C4 news issues a full on-air and digital media apology, over what was clearly LIES and disinformation to gain political points against the SNP/Scottish Independence, and to con the people of Scotland as part of an ongoing anti Scottish agenda on behalf of the uk political establishment.
Without a full correction and apology, C4 will lose the trust of Scots people,many of who previously believed to be the least openly biased uk broadcast media provider.
Or, like Sky and the BBC, are C4 news prepared to scamper down the biased unionist rabbit hole BY CHOICE to fight Scots exercising our Sovereign rights, human rights, and civil rights to democratically prosecute the mandate we have given the SNP Scotsgov over the Ukexit we as Scots thoroughly rejected by almost 2:1 ?
Will C4 even bother to respond to this complaint ?
Or, more likely, will they offer up a mealy mouthed defence based on absolutely zero evidence, like the BBC do ?
Over to you, C4.
Can I put forward a proposal , that ALL SNP and indy supporting politicos undergo training on the currency issue at GRUMPY BOB’S ( Peffers ) school for the unenlightened .
BTW I am totally serious,the amount of times I have watched this raised at interviews and discussions and our reps have been wishywashy ( to be kind ) drives me to despair
When they are asked WHAT currency we will use , they should answer the one we ALREADY use THE SCOTTISH POUND , they should then ask viewers to check the currency in their wallets and purses right now and I guarantee that most Scots will be amazed at the results .
When they are asked , what will you do if the BOE refuses to let you , they should answer AS WE ALREADY OWN PART of the BOE how will they stop us , they should then give a potted history as taught at GRUMPY BOB’S academy , that EVERY Scottish Pound in circulation is backed by a corresponding one lodged in the BOE , they should also retort that when we leave we will be taking that money with us and we will insist on receiving our share of the market value of the BOE
This would blindside the presstitutes and hopefully awaken people to the lies being spouted
BTW Mr Peffers (Grumpy Bob ) you will have to keep well to train these people
Rev puts Kibosh jinxy thing on Scotland.
“What could possibly go wrong” he asks 🙁
If there’s one thing the whole Brexit debate has been good for it’s been to expose the “voice-of-authority” long associated with the political establishment, the civil service and their cheer-leaders in the media. As many of us have known or suspected: the incompetent shysters who populate these professions have been making-it-up for years.
That’s going to happen, of course, when a narrowly educated and overly privileged social-grouplet is given the power to endlessly replicate itself.
@Bob Mack says:21 March, 2019 at 11:53 am:
” … The problem I think is that everyone is still in stop the Scots having another indy ref mode.”
I believe you are correct there, Bob Mack, but I know that the problem is, much deeper than that and it affects the Indy side almost as much as the English Nationalist side. It really is the centuries old brainwashing propaganda.
There is the general, (wrong), assumption that Westminster, England and the United Kingdom are all one and the same thing.
By projection this morphs into the assumption that England owns the Bank of England and by extension the Pound belongs to the Bank of England and thus to England. None of which is correct.
In truth Westminster is not actually legally the Parliament of England and its name tells the truth – The United Kingdom Parliament. By the way the claim that Westminster is sovereign over the United Kingdom is also false belief. Here’s why, In 1688, before the Treaty of Union, the English parliament at Westminster rebelled against their monarch, (they shared him with the still independent Kingdom of Scotland).
The rebels deposed their monarch and invited in the first protestant in the direct line of descent to become their Queen, (Mary of Orange). Mary refused as she did not want her husband, Billy, as her consort. The English rebels then offered the crowns of England, Wales and Ireland to the couple as joint monarchs and Mary accepted.
But I digress – The point was that the rebels did not trust their invited monarchy and the condition they imposed was that to get the crowns the couple had to legally delegate their sovereignty, (the divine Right of Kings), to the rebel parliament of England and that became English law.
So on the Treaty of Union this English law was illegally adopted for the new United Kingdom Parliament but under Scots law the people are sovereign so in fact Westminster was only legally sovereign in England, Wales and Ireland.
Legally Westminster is not sovereign over the Kingdom odf Scotland. How can it be when Scots Law is based upon the people being sovereign?
So getting back to the financial arrangements. The Treaty of Union states that the agreed currency of both kingdoms is the Pound Sterling. So the Pound Sterling is as much Scotland’s, (the Kingdom), as it is the three country Kingdom of England’s.
Not we must deal with the common belief that the Bank of England belongs to England. It doesn’t – The Bank of England is so named because the English Kingdom banked with it – not because it owned it. The correct name of the BofE is, “The Governor and company of the Bank of England”, and it was begun as a private company and it remained so until 1946 when, The United Kingdom Government nationalised it. The UK government – NOT the English Parliament – The BofE belongs partly to the Kingdom of Scotland.
Yet these numpties think it, and the Pound Sterling, belong to England. Furthermore there is the daft idea that when the breakup happens everything will be divided up along the lines of current population proportions and that is daft.
Westminster controlled not only the population of Scotland by their policies, (think clearances, deindustrialisation and extra-regio territories), but the tax and excise levied on Scottish produce. None of which was population based.
So there you go – several long held wrong beliefs blown right out of the water. The pound isn’t England’s: The Bank of England isn’t England’s and Westminster isn’t England’s either.
I rest my case
@Alasdair Galloway says:21 March, 2019 at 11:59 am:
… My only addition to this would be that not only have Sweden been in the EU for more than two decades without adopting the Euro, they actually had a referendum about adopting it in 2003 and decided not to.”
Not only that but as it has only been the EU. since 1 November 1993 then many of the countries still not using the Euro were founding member countries – as, of course, was Scotland.
I see the Rev is watching the Scotland match, I bet his visits to the dentist don’t seem so painful in retrospect.
Looks like C4 have outsourced their facts service to Scotland in Union. Can’t really think how else they could come up with so much rubbish. They can’t seem to even get the facts about joining the Euro and joining the EU correct.
@ confused blonde says: 21 March, 2019 at 12:00 pm:
… O/T Sorry on first post can anyone tell me why I am not getting through to the petition?”
Yes – it has probably been answered already – but the answer is that because of the number of people using the site – it crashed. It is probably back now.
Never mind a petition to revoke article 50, think one to sack Mcleish is more pertinent just now.
Channel 4 is owned by the government.
Their news is produced by the same ITN that produces ITV’s “news”
I sincerly hope that the SNP have spoken to the EU so that we have senior spokesmen in Europe who can refute the lies about currency, Scotland goes to the end of the queue, Spanish veto, etc.
This MUST be all lined up before Inderef 2, and I hope the SNP have done their homework.
We were caught cold last time, with no Europeans prepared to come forward. I think it may be different next time.
Similarly a strong confirmation (guarantee) that pensions will be unaffected. This was used by lying Gordon Brown to scare many older voters in 2014. Actually a promise that Scottish pensions will be brought up to the European average ASAP would be a potential vote winner.
All those things loud and clear please.
Ms Burley has form on this sort of thing.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
She was extremely rude to Craig Murray over the Skripal affair and it becomes clear she only had him for interview to get him to retract a comment he had made previously questioning the integrity of Sky News. I lost respect for her then and this latest spat has just reinforced that view.
@defo says:21 March, 2019 at 12:01 pm:
” … If we hit the hydrocarbon & renewable jackpot’s, as i suspect we will, selling energy to our near friends and neighbours in € would put powerful noses out of joint.”
If putting noses out of joint is your aim then a far, far better way of doing so is to continue to use our own currency, THE POUND STERLING, and tying it to the English Pound Sterling.
Here’s why. The McCrone Report frightened the shit out of Westminster by what Professor Gavin McCrone reported to Westminster and that was because he reported that the Scottish pound tied to the English pound would harden so much as to embarrass England. Which was why Westminster buried the McCrone Report.
Now a too hard currency is a problem and it is why Norway buys Euros it doesn’t need but it is nothing like as bad for your economy as having another wealthy county forcing your own currency to react and you have no good way to help the problem.
It would be laughable if a hard Scottish pound forced England to adopt the Euro to save the pound English hitting rock bottom.
I read Mcleish wants to manage Scotland till 2022, as long as he’s gone by 20:30 then that’s OK.
I’m not wanting to embark on a savage character assassination of Kay Burley but, we all work with a person exactly like her.
You know the type. Been there ages, has risen up the ladder by shouting a lot, repeatedly demonstrates that they are employed well above the level their limited talent would suggest, seemingly untouchable because they know where the bodies are buried, everyone else has to just put up with it until they f**k off and retire.
The main reason she frequently makes a prat of herself in interviews is that she’s actually pretty thick. Not that most people that watch Sky would notice.
{ Over throw the tables & cast out the Money changers from the temple } or so said Jesus .
Im just back from Tenerife on Sat & never used the money changers I used my Visa card £ 1.94 whither you want € 10 or €500 .
So’s I wouldn’t have a problem being in EU & using the €€€ now that I am retired & with a increase of Pension in a Independent Scotland my Wife & Myself would be having more holidays , just for the sunshine .
galamcennalath says at 11:48 am
“There is a strong default assumption within the ‘London Bubble’ that the SNP assertions are always incorrect or invalid, and Scottish independence is a stupid idea.”
Path dependency mate. Three centuries of imperial dominance can do that to a culture, a consequence of the over-centralisation of political and cultural power. It has resulted in the concept that London is the Beez Neez*. Now there was a dump. 🙂
* Dundee nightclub in the ’80s/90s.
link to sciencedirect.com
The path dependency theory: analytical framework to study institutional integration. The case of France
link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The politics and policies of welfare chauvinism under the economic crisis
link to journals.sagepub.com
Who benefits? Welfare chauvinism and national stereotypes
link to journals.sagepub.com
The entire UK MSM hates Scotland.
England has all but declared war on us but without the guns.
We must defend ourselves against this onslaught, but the question is how.
She knows fine that it’s wrong, so does the show’s producer, but they both know it’e been SAID on national TV and that means many many people will believe it. Mission accomplished. They’ve started early though….must be expecting something soon – bring it on I say…..
Sky News accusing a guest of “mansplaining”, when responding to an assertion live on air from the host sums up the British media perfectly. Seriously, did they just invite him to stand there and patronisingly nod so he could get a front row seat while Kay Burley gives us all her view on the fucking European Exchange Rate Mechanism?
Auld Bob aka Mr Peffers.
Tying the Pound Scots to the Pound Sterling is a masterstroke.
Apoplexy unlimited.
Glad you can still think outside the nine dots.
Hope your health is improving.
I’m hoping this link works. So this on fb. Great to hear
link to snp.org
Alert thingie, prediction expert I guess, to Thepnr who said the petition would be above 1 million today at the rate it was going up last night.
As I’ve made comment on the performances of the Scottish rugby team a few times it’s only fair to mention the football.
Kazakhstans biggest win was 7-0 against the mighty Pakistan.
At least that record looks safe.
We have to adopt the Euro. Actual facts do not matter when propaganda is required.
“that’s been debunked roughly 1000 times in the last six years,”
yesindyref2 factcheck – that should be roughly 1000 times every minute of the last six years. I.e. 3,155,692,600 times in total as of this minute.
@Ronnie Anderson
I’ve been using these guys since they started, excellent.
link to fairfx.com
Not that am flummoxed by anything put out by AUOB .
Mandeep Singh updated his status.
Yesterday at 16:06
So people want to become another region in Europe sign away their nationhood. Loayl to the European flag not the flag of the land they are born. Believe in another corrupt Union and the same corrupt leaders they are so against. You can’t even make this up as this is a sad reality. They don’t even know what the meaning of an independent country is. Brainwashed is an understatement .
I was going to comment on the offer of yellow vests yesterday to AUOB I hope you see this comment Crazycat & let the person know who made the offer to read this comment .
Another nail in the coffin of the leadership of AUOB .
Can anyone explain to me in simple terms (imagine I’m an 8 year old) why joining the Euro would be a bad thing?
Yesindyref2@4.39.
Indeed !!
Congrats Thepnr, yer a ‘lert !!!:-)
@Frazerio says: 21 March, 2019 at 12:32 pm:
” … I’d immediately appoint Kevin Bridges as SNP Spokesperson on all things financial. I’ve always liked his currency suggestion, the Smackeroonie!!!”
Why ever would Scotland want to make itself a laughing stock?
Scotland already has its own currency and it has had it since at least 1 May 1707. It’s called the Pound Sterling and it says so in the Treaty of Union. The pound is not England’s to tell us we cannot use it. It is the agreed currency of both kingdoms that signed the Treaty of Union.
Not only that but the Scots pound is distinctive enough that robbing Englanders in London will attempt to give you change that is less than the face value on the banknote. Some will even refuse to accept a Scottish note.
Not only is the Pound Sterling as much the Scottish Currency as it is England’s but the so called Bank of England has never in its entire history ever belonged to the Kingdom of England.
It began as a private company and its full title is The Governor and Company of the Bank of England. It remained a private company until 1946 when THE UNITED KINGDOM parliament nationalised it and the UNITED KINGDOM Parliament is the joint parliament of both kingdoms that comprise The United Kingdom. It is thus partly Scottish.
Furthermore the reason that succeeding Westminster parliaments hid the McCrone Report away as Top Secret was because the report warned that an independent Scotland’s pound would become so strong against the English pound as to leave England economically ruined.
Why else do you imagine hey are so set upon putting Scots off use of the pound and implying that the Bank of England belongs only to England? Don’t fall for their bullshit – go learn the truth.
“So people want to become another region in Europe sign away their nationhood.”
That’s straight out of the Eurosceptic verse book, left-wing version I suppose.
@Mandeep Singh
Socialism is not a pastime for isolationists, there is no left-wing case for Brexit. Here’s some free advice, learn a bit about how the EU works in respect to national sovereignty.
@ R Peffers
“Why ever would Scotland want to make itself a laughing stock?”
We seem to manage at the FITBA.
“Danish billionaires plan to rewild large swath of Scottish Highlands
Scotland’s largest private landowners want to reverse years of land mismanagement, says adviser”
link to archive.is
I’m seriously scunnered after losing a comment due to battery failure. Mind you, it’s a good metaphor for Theresa May & her Tory Government, as their grip on power just gets weaker and weaker. But I at least can recharge, while they they on the other hand, are gonnae need a whole new phone before the electorate start using them again.
Ronnie
In this current climate a 8 yr old would have a better grasp of the politic lol.
Tatu3
“Danish billionaires plan to rewild large swath of Scottish Highlands”
Have they rich Danes no’ heard. Somebody should tell them to stick to Lego.
The Independence Movement will have something to say about that.
There you go, just when I thought Theresa May was possibly the worst manager I had ever seen, Alex Mcleish says ‘hold my pint’.
Cameron B Brodie I’ll gie U Mandeep’s phone number and you can discuss it more fully Best of luck lol.
The revoke A50 petition currently has a backlog of ~5 hours (and counting) for emails with a link to confirm vote to be sent.
The “is climate change still a thing” moron (Leadsom) says it doesn’t matter until the petition hits 17.4m.
I doubt it will but it’ll hit 5m for sure. If it hits 10m then it’ll be “interesting”.
Mixed feelings about that really as A50 revocation will mean the SNP leadership can (and will) continue to kick the indyref2 can down the road.
I still stick with what I said to my (English) wife 18 months ago – it’ll be a no-deal & the English will blame the Irish & (optionally) the French/Germans for their own failings and utter incompetence. I see no reason to change my opinion.
The only good thing which might come out of this quickly is a united Ireland as the moronic Tories chose zero tarrifs for a no-deal which kills most of the NI farming industry stone dead – in weeks.
In terms of indyref2 – like many of you I’m wondering what more it’ll take for the SNP leadership to start the process. Alien invasion perhaps?
Ronnie
I’ll give it a go though this issue a bit of a red-hearing, IMHO, as there is no legal mechanism to force Scotland to join the currency union. Straight-up, I biased. My outlook is guided by the desire to protect Scotland’s social policy – spending on schools, social security, public health and stuff. Nations that control their currency have control over their social policy, nations who’s currency is run by the European Central Bank, not so much.
As I said though, this is not a threat to Scotland, it is yoon smoke and mirrors.
What Burley demonstrated is something we haven’t really got our heads around. We tend to think of the economic factor – the effect that Scottish natural resources have on those down south who are “in the know” but keep it well to themselves, while simultaneously pretending for public consumption that we are beggars at their fine table.
But it’s different among ordinary people. Not all, of course. There are many who would prefer us to stay but honestly recognise that we are being abused. But there is another reaction, and it cuts right across the political spectrum. It is a feeling of hurt. They have extended to us a kind of “honorary Englishness” – not quite the real deal, but enough to grant access to their society more openly than to “proper foreigners”. We are somewhere in between. I guess it’s the same for the Welsh.
So when we reject that status and want to be our own masters, they take personal offence. They feel it is a betrayal of their generosity. It is wounded amour propre. Because we are somewhat more than a mere colony, our potential departure really hurts. Particularly among those with little understanding and greatly inflated self-pride. Take a bow, Kate Burley. But she is far from alone. We saw it post-IR with the M&S wumman who declared that we were “English now”. C4 news and the Graun are full of it (with some honourable exceptions). Among other things, it results in the kind of ignoramus publicly talking over us, saying stuff we know is total nonsense.
In my complaint to C4, I called it “anglosplaining”.
ronnie anderson
Happy to oblige. I’ve been in touch with Ian B, who’ll oblige in passing on my gmail. 😉
Hold the front page,
Brexiteers are asking the “empires finest” Uri Geller to do some of his psychic wonders to save the country.
Expect the vision of a “BS kite-mark” 3 pin plug on your telly screen.
Rub the 3 pin plug for Treeza, and save the nation.
Obviously this is bollocks, but nothing would surprise me.
The current situation with the Unionists is that of a person running around screaming, with their pants on their head, banging into walls.
The action is generally known as panic.
Some lower classes in Scotland identify the condition as “shiting oneself”
The unionists in the know are aware the game is almost over, the previously daft Scots have now realised they were getting a very bad deal within the so called union.
Some lower classes in Scotland identify the condition as “getting shafted”.
The Scots are off with their substantial wealth and doing it before the Westminster regime privatise Scottish Water.
Hence the very barely credible stories being produced by the Regime and its so called news outlets.
While I know that Kay Burly was spouting British Nationalist propaganda (and well done again Rev for putting the spotlight on C4 and their lies)
I thought it was a really good interview…. Ian Blackford got his points across with a calm dignity and held his ground when she threw the “mansplaning” curve… He didn’t rise to it or miss a beat!
We all heard his word’s and the two woman came across as unable to cope with a politician who didn’t behave in the Westminster way…. Nicola does this all the time and it’s good to see that Scotland’s most senior Westminster Politician can too!!
Suberd demolition. A great service.
@Abulhaq says: 21 March, 2019 at 12:47 pm:
” … Why would iScotland not want to join the eurozone”
Why would it want to, Abulhaq?
Scotland has a perfectly good currency and has had it for at least 312 years. It is called the pound Sterling. Scotland even has distinctive Scottish banknotes and Scotland owns part of a central bank. It is called the Bank of England but strangely enough it has never actually belonged to the country of England.
Want to argue the facts, Abulhaq? Here is a wee bit of extra information for you. When Professor Gavin McCrone handed his report to the Westminster parliament it was the simple fact that Scotland had a share in the Bank of England and as much right to the Pound Sterling as England had that scared the shit out of Westminster.
You see an independent Scotland with 89% of the United Kingdom’s oil & gas reserves and using the Pound Sterling would see the Scots pound become so hard while England’s pound would fall and England become economically unsound.
That’s why they hid the McCrone report away for decades. and it is why they both then and now circulate all this propaganda lies about the currency, The Bank of England and Scotland having to NOT use the pound and be forced to use the Euro.
McLeish is a man who doesn’t believe that Scotland should be a nation.
How can he be expected to manage Scotland’s men’s football team when he couldn’t give a shit about Scotland?
Goodness! Reading the wiki page on Burley she really is a nasty piece of work.
I’m not sure we have a men’s football team anymore. That is a shocker of a result. Why we got rid of Strachan I’m not sure. We had some good performances under his spell.
On a plus note there is a distinct smell of overcooked gammon on the BBC HYS over the petition which I see is up around 1.15m
Tusk and Juncker press conference due to start now.
link to video.consilium.europa.eu
Robert Peffers @ 16:17:
I fear you have an inherent contradiction of thought here, RP. By tying a Scots currency (of whatever name) to an English pound, we would have no direct control whatever over its exchange rate, only some indirect influence – for better or ill – through its pervasive employ in our economy. It was partly the fear of the potential drag of an “impoverished Scottish economy” on a shared Pound Sterling that lay behind the rejection propaganda of the proposed currency union. Which worked here at home, even though folk like you or I are confident that the Scots economy would actually prosper under full self-management.
The only purpose of a short-term continued use of the existing Pound Sterling is essentially political: to ease the transition into independence for ordinary people, both practically and psychologically. It’s not a viable or helpful strategy even into the medium term, because it severely constricts our options, as any economist can tell you.
You can only have a “hard” pound to compare against a “soft” pound if the two currencies are entirely independent, and managed separately. That’s a comparison I for one would be very happy to contemplate.
Mansplaining,
`the explanation of something by a man, typically to a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing.`
Anglosplaining,
`the explanation of something by an anglo journalist,typically to a Scot, in a manner regarded as condesending or patronizing.`
@David S. Briggs says: 21 March, 2019 at 2:08 pm:
” … Why would the UK be exempt from joining the Euro? because they didn’t have to and neither would Scotland.”
Well that’s not quite true, David. To be fair the United Kingdom have a written negotiated exemption. However, here’s the other mistake you are making. Scotland is one of the only two partner kingdoms that comprise the United Kingdom. As such we have as much right to claim that written exemption as the Kingdom of England has.
The point is that, and you are not alone, people, including indy supporters, tend to look at things as if it is Scotland against the United Kingdom when Scotland is as much a part of the United Kingdom as the Kingdom of England is.
This is the attitude they want you to adopt. For example Scotland isn’t leaving the United Kingdom. It is a two kingdom partnership so if Scotland goes independent Scotland isn’t leaving the United Kingdom Scotland is disuniting the United Kingdom. That is Scotland is ending the United Kingdom.
That is why they foster the myths they do. If Scotland was actually leaving the United Kingdom there would still be a United Kingdom so they push the idea of an rUnited Kingdom and the idea that this fictitious rUK owns everything. Like the Pound Sterling that they tell you they wouldn’t let you use.
But Scotland is a full partner in the United Kingdom so Scotland owns part of the Bank of England, (nationalised by the United Kingdom – not by England alone and the pound is as much Scottish as it is English.
Unfortunately far too many Scots have fallen for their propaganda.
O/T
Brexit latest
“The mood has hardened here in Brussels” @tconnellyRTE with the latest on #Brexit |
link to twitter.com
1/ @GuitarMoog explains the negotiating options left for May’s government. ‘The UK can revoke Article 50. There is a petition that went live yesterday that in 24 hours has nearly a million signatures.’ @GuitarMoog’s full interview with @SkyNews.
video
link to twitter.com
A shared currency would benefit Scotland and England. It is only because of oil production that sterling has not crashed. Production contributes 3%-4% to UK GDP. Not to mention the £30 billion raised in fuel duty. With the UK out of the EU, should Scotland leave the ‘Union’, the Chancellor (at the time) would want to do a deal..
O/T
BREAKING: UK military has activated team in a nuclear bunker under the @DefenceHQ main building to step up preparations for a no-deal Brexit, @SkyNews can reveal. The crisis management operation – dubbed Operation #REDFOLD – began on Monday 1/
link to twitter.com
OT
Looks like Police Scotland, at least, are taking seriously threats of violence against women who oppose the misogynistic, transgender selfidentifiers.
link to archive.is
Even if the Evening Telegraph chickened out of reporting the story clearly!
Scott Finlayson@ 6.07pm
Anglosplaining – brilliant.
My own additional suggestion is Britnatsplaining: to explain something by lying to a Scot in a condescending or patronising manner.
Live thread from Peston
the words of one well-placed source here in Brussels, they know her deal is already dead.
that @theresa_may is being ordered not to promise any concession to Northern Ireland’s DUP that impairs the impact in any meaningful way of the backstop loathed by DUP and Tory ERG MPs. EU leaders are not making it any easier for her to win that crucial meaningful vote. In…
link to twitter.com
link to rte.ie
OK, I’m on topic this time. By the way, there’s been over three centuries to sort out a proper system of government in the UK, one that enables pluralism and a respect for inalienable human rights. There’s just no will though as the current set-up suites the Establishment quite well.
link to link.springer.com
ORGANIZATIONAL CHANGE AND RESISTANCE: AN IDENTITY PERSPECTIVE
files.aiscience.org/journal/article/pdf/70660007.pdf
Resistance Redux
link to journals.sagepub.com
Kierkegaard’s Quest: How Not to Stop Seducing
link to philpapers.org
Why is Corbyn in Brussels , what can he possibly be negotiating he has no cohesive policy on Brexit
Well unless the nerve of MPs fail (always possible) May looks like her coat is on a shoogly peg and we will be in a no deal Indyref2 game (unless May has all SNP members arrested…always possible with her).
Here’s a classic example of anglocentric thinking.
Not even a glimmer of recognition that there are distinct NHS setups in ‘Britain’.
The winger in me wants to think this is English NHS based research.
But even if it is not, the need to differentiate would surely provide an extra dimension to that research.
link to archive.is
O/T
Bbc catching up on the Lifebelts on the Clyde story ( no ropes ) 1st Highlighted by Kevin Gibney Livestream
Well done Kevin .
ANGLOSPLAINING © Scot Finlayson
Brilliant! We have to get that word established and in common usage 🙂
So sick of this. I had a look at the writer’s twitter (@lee_georgina) and she obviously has come late to the party with her ‘hot-take’ on Indy Scotland and the Euro.
Much to the Unionists’ glee, she is doubling down and boy does she think she is right, not even a glimmer of admission there could be another interpretation.
The criticism is fairly kind for now but it is frustrating how these arguments have to be made again and again.
Usual set piece tag team between Harvie and Sturgeon at FMQ
link to thenational.scot
Keeps most of us happy, and makes the unionists froth in their Belgian beers.
Won’t be long now.
galamcennalath @ 19:04,
I do modestly claim authorship:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The Revoke Article 50 petition is over 1.3million. Imagine what it would have been if it wasn’t down half of the time!
MANGLOSPLAINING
That would be perfect!
Robert J. Sutherland says:
… alas, a quick google shows references back in 2016.
However, I still think it’s a brilliant word and very apt for the London centric drivel that passes down there for understanding and knowledge.
Reactive update (circa March ’19):
– First they ignore Scotland
– Then they laugh at Scotland
– Then they try to fight us
– Then we laugh at them
– Then they fight each other
– Then we laugh at them again
– Then iScotland wins
The seven steps to freedom.
To be a little controversial, you only have to look at the pinned year-old tweet on the authoress’s timeline to see what the problem is likely to be.
1). Female uses the word “mansplaining” to allege sexism where it doesn’t exist
2). Female automatically leaps to the defence of other female when attacked
Years, decades, centuries, millennia of sexism and discrimination against females, don’t make it right to do it the other way around – nor to bend the truth to fit the circumstance.
Perhaps they should learn from the females posting on Wings, most of whom you really don’t want to tangle with – unless you’re in the right of course.
All these No to Yes testimonies. Keeps the spirits up but nothing more I thought. And then tonight I met one of the most vocal anti-independence, separation is racist, Alex Salmond with two devil horns people I ever knew. And he is Yes now.
Thank you, Theresa May.
The UK is fucked.
Wall Street Journal tells it like it is … (behind paywall) ….
“European leaders are moving toward granting British Prime Minister Theresa May a seven-week postponement of the Brexit deadline but warned her that the U.K. risks crashing out of the European Union on Friday of next week if her divorce deal isn’t approved by Parliament by then.”
Clear and to the point. The fact that most UK media appear unwilling to present reality in such stark terms, shows the extent to which they are playing along to Tory Gov agenda and narrative.
How good is Kazakhstan at organising referenda?
galamcennalath @ 19:26:
Well, that’s me put in my place! =grin=
But I do agree, a meme whose time has definitely come.
mike cassidy
Just of the top of my head, ethnography tends to be written by the dominant culture, so it should not be any surprise that British ethnography can often view the world from a “One Nation” perspective. Not that I’m questioning the research, I’ve not taken a proper look at it. I’m simply pointing to institutional cultural bias as a possible reason for the culturally insensitive tone of the study. It’s appears as if Britain is one nation, when clearly Scotland and England have different views and experiences of migration, both emigration and immigration.
Aspiration, desire and drivers of migration
link to tandfonline.com
Introducing movements
Journal for Critical Migration and Border Studies
link to movements-journal.org
Introduction: Migration studies and critical temporalities
link to journals.sagepub.com
Introducing Critical Perspectives on Migration
link to e-ir.info
link to livestream.com
This Independence thing is in the bag, guaranteed, a stick on certainty, won by a mile before we even get started, and you know how I know
Unionists only believe in voting once in their lifetime and that’s it over, they voted NO in 2014 and as far as they’re concerned they’re not voting again, they meant it you know
@ Robert J Sutherland who said ” So when we reject that status and want to be our own masters, they take personal offence. They feel it is a betrayal of their generosity. It is wounded amour propre. Because we are somewhat more than a mere colony, our potential departure really hurts”.
I think that is a true insight Robert. If we think of a former UK colony like India, Nigeria or Kenya – we know they were never permited to have 1 MP at Westminster
Indeed that was the basis for the American Revolution “No taxation without representation”
Ireland, Scotland and Wales were “members of the family”. King George V was apparently very upset at the idea of Ireland’s Independence “Why do the want to leave the family?” he wailed.
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Wouldn’t it be bra’ if Rev Stu commissioned an opinion poll, including the “independence” question, during the 2019 WOS fundraiser?
The speed of fundraising would surely be reported by the National (and others) and then, on the back of that, the poll results?
Could be ‘interesting times’…
Craig P @ 19:32,
Yes, and tip-of-the-iceberg effect, what that also implies is that there are now a lot of latent former no-voters who have become receptive and open to conversion. (And they don’t show up in the polls.)
We need to capitalise on this unique opportunity and make a move soon, before Brexit becomes established and normalised.
Robert Peffers says: 21 March, 2019 at 5:24 pm
“@Abulhaq says: 21 March, 2019 at 12:47 pm:
” … Why would iScotland not want to join the eurozone”
Why would it want to, Abulhaq?”
In addition to the oft recounted reasons to use iScotland’s own currency (usually meaning Sterling and NOT the Euro) there is, I believe, the overriding reason which allows the new iScotland to manage its own currency in all respects. Taxation, money supply, government expenditure, inflation targets, foreign exchange rates and all the normal aspects of a national exchequer.
Sterlingisation I believe will be shown to be limiting for iScotland. Its own currency would be better (the MERK ?).
Currency sharing would be too limiting. iScotland will likely have currency hurdles to overcome in the coming early days. iScotland will start up with a functioning successful economy, tax base, tax system and a population literate in the basics of working in a successful economy.
iScotland will quickly build up the financial resources a central bank needs to exercise appropriate controls like money creation / money extinguishing targets and mechanisms and regulatory frameworks. The only question from this vantage point today is the likely speed of achieving these. External conditions may accelerate or inhibit but will not prevent success in the new financial sphere.
Experience shows this is all a difficult set of concepts to explain on the doorstep. Suffice to say the resources iScotland starts off with (population, land, materials, infrastructure, education, law, government) makes complete independence very attractive and very likely to be turned into a small successful nation in not too long a time.
A timely reminder of what the loony right not only believes, but intends to achieve …
” To restore Britain’s competitiveness we must begin by deregulating the labour market. Political objections must be overridden. It is too difficult to hire and fire and too expensive to take on new employees. “ – Liam Fox, 2012
link to archive.is
O/T
One EU diplomat has conceded the unity of the EU27 has started to disintegrate for the first time in the Brexit negotiations
thread
link to twitter.com
Joining the ERM is voluntary but lying about Scotland in the British media is compulsory.
How hard can it be, what’s the delay, the brits are on their knees begging. The decision is easy, come on EU, put the boot in.
@Robert J. Sutherland says:21 March, 2019 at 6:03 pm:
” … I fear you have an inherent contradiction of thought here, RP. By tying a Scots currency (of whatever name) to an English pound, we would have no direct control whatever over its exchange rate”
Now where did you derive that particular idea, Robert?
The Bank of England never has belonged to an English Government. It was a private company and is still actually called, “The Governor and Company of the Bank of England”, It remained private right up until 1946.
At which point it was nationalised. Not by the Government of England but by the Government of the two partner United Kingdom. So Scotland owns a negotiable part of the Bank of England and obviously would have seats on the board.
” … It was partly the fear of the potential drag of an “impoverished Scottish economy” on a shared Pound Sterling that lay behind the rejection propaganda of the proposed currency union.”
Nope! It was nothing of the sort. That was what they wanted you to believe – and obviously you did. It goes way back long before that, (as I’ve posted several times over the last couple of days).
Here, just for you, is the real reason. When Professor Gavin McCrone was commissioned by the Westminster establishment to investigate the effects of the discovery of Oil & Gas reserves in mainly Scottish waters his, “McCrone Report”, caused panic in the Westminster Establishment. If you have read the report you will know just why.
I’m not about to start trawling through it for cut & paste references. Do your own research. The report stated that not only would the oil & gas reserves encourage Scot’s to seek independence but if they got control of Scotland’s oil & gas in an independent Scotland it would lead to the Scottish currency hardening against the English Currency which would obviously suffer. This was why the report was marked Top Secret and buried for decades.
Now as to Exchange Rates here is a definition:-
” … Which worked here at home, even though folk like you or I are confident that the Scots economy would actually prosper under full self-management.
Aye! And folk like the Westminster Establishment shit themselves when they realised that if Scotland got the Oil & Gas revenues they would not be going to England and that on top of the stone cold fact that while Scotland is a net exporter – England is a net importer.
There is no doubt whatsoever that a Scottish Pound Sterling would rise in value and an English Pound Sterling tied to it would sink out of site. As McCrone said in his report, “to the embarrassment of England”. Now get this – that fact is even more so today than when McCrone write his report.
Just this week it was reported here on Wings that the Scottish economy was outperforming the UK/England economy and that is without oil & Gas revenues nor the several other nice little earners Westminster has at Scotland’s expense – like the National Grid Connection Charges for example.
Phillipe Lambert MEP on CNN just now suggesting a short unconditional extension to allow the UKGov to come up with an entirely new strategy, one which would unblock the ongoing impasse via a PV or GE and which would require a further extension to implement, if mutually agreed.
But also thinking that no-deal was a distinct possibility instead.
Without getting too technical, as I’d be out of my depth pretty quickly, Europe’s economy is not suited to a single currency, IMHO, as the group still presents too many regional disparities in economic performance.
The European economy still runs at different speeds due to localised structural and location-al advantages/disadvantages for economic development. The European spatial planning policy aims at ameliorating the resulting adverse effects of this, largely through structural funds, particularly in peripheral regions* such as Scotland. There was a transport plan associated with this, which included HS2. However, the clown-shoes approach to joined-up government that Westminster prefers, means that the European spatial policy will now undermine Scotland’s economy.
* don’t get triggered. 😉
Whats wrong with the Euro anyway ? As good a currency as any. The fact the ultra Europhobes hate it is as good a reason as any to join.
If the UK leaves the EU it will be forced to adopt the dollar.
Fox and Gove will take it into the twilight zone.
Membership of DERM is compulsory!
ian stewart
National governments have no input to the control over the Euro, that’s how the ECB was designed. No control over currency means no control over social policy. So I suppose it really depends on what you think should be the purpose of the economy.
If the Brexit mad dogs get their way we’ll all be using the US Dollar anyway.
Or bartering vegetables.
We need to revoke Article 50 and put the UK House in order.(Grant England its independence)
The madness has gone too far already.
link to petition.parliament.uk
Over one million signatures last time I could get onto the site. It keeps crashing.
ian stewart says: 21 March, 2019 at 8:17 pm
“Whats wrong with the Euro anyway ? As good a currency as any.”
iScotland using a currency it did not control with its own central bank and taxation system removes useful levers from the government’s arsenal of controls.
Walking about France or Spain there seems, as you say, not much wrong with the Euro. It buys beer.
Robert Peffers @ 20:08:
Directly from what you wrote, in the two parts of the text I quoted. You can’t simultaneously have a shared/linked currency, however effected, and also two currencies that observably compete. I would have thought that was fairly self-evident.
The only thing that can be said for a separate administration (provisionally) using someone else’s currency, as the SNP are now clearly intending to propose, is that all the economic facts of life then become fully transparent, which is a giant leap forward compared to the notorious GERS, if that is what you mean.
But that still hampers economic growth. Significant fiscal autonomy and the full power to regulate your own economy only comes via your own currency. That’s flatly indisputable.
link to mobile.twitter.com
” Brexit Crisis: Scotland didn’t vote for this Prime Minister, didn’t vote for her party, didn’t vote for Brexit and didn’t vote for this crisis. It’s time for Scottish independence. “
Our time has come, almost !
You really might all want to be tuning in to the press conference by Tusk and Juncker that was supposed to satrt as 18:00 tonight and still hasen’t started.
The latest is this is because the EU27 have had trouble agreeing on a final chice of words to what they are prepared to offer but according to Peston it is not looking good for May.
“The Brexit postponement plan being discussed here in Brussels – for hours longer than expected – has the potential to tear apart the government and Tory party, and Labour too. Because its explicit proviso that the UK has to decide by 11 April whether to participate in May’s elections to the European parliament, or else leave the EU on 7 May, WITH OR WITHOUT A DEAL, sets up the debate in parliament @theresa_may was desperate to avoid. It tells MPs of all parties they have 20 days to decide whether to opt for a long Brexit delay, a delay that…”
link to twitter.com
The way things are going, these Scottish Tories and their ‘whats in it for me’ followers may want their big pensions converted into Euros rather than GPB so it doesn’t deprecate in the near future.
Link to the press conference when it eventually does start.
link to europa.eu
re. the joint TUC/CBI statement on a no-deal Brexit, “The shock to our economy would be felt for generations to come”.
No deal is only marginally less bad than May’s deal. Brexit will hurt generations yet to be born. That’s how Tories deal with social and inter-generational ethics. Very poorly, if at all.
@ Thepnr – the europa.eu webcast is due to start at 22:30 CET which is 9:30 pm here.
No deal marginally worse….., of course. It’s a confusing time.
PacMan says: 21 March, 2019 at 8:33 pm
“The way things are going, these Scottish Tories and their ‘whats in it for me’ followers may want their big pensions converted into Euros rather than GPB so it doesn’t deprecate in the near future.”
And was Gavin McCrone all that wrong all those years ago? When everything has turned out even better than he predicted it could?
A government in charge of its own currency and a country with the attributes of iScotland will see its currency fall? How much? Not much I’d bet. Because if I have any cash in hand it will be in a Scottish bank before a Euro one.
EU dinner and talks still ongoing hours late.
Not reached the nuts and cheese yet.
Caught up on FMQs because I missed Wee Wullie… Jings!
Berating the PM and demanding a PV then in the same breath howling at the FM for hinting at an Independence vote how dare there be an Indi2. 🙂 A soul in torment.
Does Channel 4 actually cover Scottish news? It’s the same as Sky, does nothing for Scotland.
You’d think they’d at least cover FMQs on a Thursday.
And why does the BBC’s coverage of PMQs on a Wednesday last 1h45m but of FMQs on a Thursady just 1h?
It’s time Westminster enacted legislation to force news broadcasters to reflect devolution and more fairly represent the nations within the UK.
Petition site pretty winky tonight.
And what’s with this £32 million for the new BBC Scotland channel? Aye, right – that’s all NEW money?
They killed off BBC2 Scotland but didn’t really advertise that’s what they were doing. It was only when I retuned and didn’t get BBC2 Scotland that I googled and found it was now dead.
So just how much of the £32 million was already being spent on BBC2 Scotland and how much of it represents new cash?
@Capella
Cheers 25 mins to go then, will be worth tuning in I’d have thought 🙂
CameronB Brodie @ 20:14:
The problem with the euro is that it was attempting to achieve political ends through economic means, whereas it should have been the other way round.
As an American prophetically mentioned to me at the time of its introduction (the US of course has enormous regional disparities of its own, yet manages), the eurozone has limited mechanisms for wealth transfer to compensate for its “one size fits all” policy, and that is essential. Instead it relies on crude convergence. This works for the wealthier countries but certainly not for the ones with inherent endemic problems of mismanagement. Greece should never have been allowed anywhere near the euro, for example.
Not the ECB’s fault in the first place. There’s nothing inherently wrong with having a central bank whose sole job is to maintain the integrity if tthe currency, free from typical short-termist political meddling for dubious motives.
It’s a tricky political situation. Germans (for example) don’t see any reason to “subsidise” countries with shoddy and corrupt practices, but without that wealth transfer – and essential concomitant due diligence – it all just bumbles clumsily along.
It’s not all baaaad though. Despite what I wrote in response to RP above, there can be advantages in pooling financial sovereignty over a significant breadth of countries. Financial stability for one thing, especially with petro-economies like Scotland. And as Phil hinted at upthread, it has significant personal advantages in moving around the eurozone, free bank transfers and all.
@ Thepnr – there are tweets galore but they all say something different so until Donald Tusk or Jean Claude Juncker have spoken we haven’t a scooby what is going to happen.
May is apparently not at the dinner so is she pacing about in a hotel room waiting for her fate to be decided?
What a state of affairs! 🙂
Capella
May doesn’t eat she will hanging upside down from her hotel rafters awaiting the result.
Never understood the Yes supporting culturati wanting Channel 4 to plonk their fat Unionist arses up here in Scotland,
anyhoo,talking of yoons,
BBCQT from Northern Ireland,wonder what they might talk about 🙂
Anent the comments on rich Danes buying up the Highlands, it is a fact that to buy land in Denmark you need to fulfil residency qualification. This is long standing and was enacted to counter the pressure from rich West Germans, as were, to stop coming across the border to buy up property.
@HandandShrimp
May doesn’t eat she will hanging upside down from her hotel rafters awaiting the result.
Hahahaha my favourite post of the day 🙂
@Phil says: 21 March, 2019 at 7:49 pm:
” … Sterlingisation I believe will be shown to be limiting for iScotland.”
Oh! Fir heaven’s sake, “Sterlingisation”? What The hell is that supposed to even mean? How can you, “Sterlinise”, a country/kingdom that has been, “Sterlinised”, since at least 1 May 1707?
In point of fact Robert Bruce paid the Kingdom of England in Sterling in the Edinburgh-Northampton treaty:-
The Treaty of Union agrees both kingdoms should use the same currency. It is every bit as much Scotland’s currency as it is England’s.
In any event there are, for example many countries that use the Dollar. These include Canada and the USA. They have never had any problems. Border towns use both without problems. The thing is they can, or cannot tie their currencies or let them freely differ.
” … Its own currency would be better (the MERK ?).
Currency sharing would be too limiting.”<Sheesh! The pound is Scotland's own currency and what is more it is distinctly different from bank of England currency but furthermore Scotland owns part of the so called Bank of England. As Scotland owns part of the BofE Scotland could obviously have seats on the board.
Not to mention that the Westminster Parliament IS NOT the Parliament of England but the Parliament of the two partner United Kingdom and when Scotland takes her independence it means that there is no more United Kingdom. There cannot be a United Kingdom with only one Kingdom.
” … iScotland will likely have currency hurdles to overcome in the coming early days.”
Not nearly so many as will the Kingdom of England. For starters the English Pound will plummet and the Scots pound will soar.
That is what Gavin McCrone wrote in his report all those years age that had the Westminster Establishment in abject terror. Which is why they marked the McCrone Report, Top Secter and buried it for decades in a Westminster cellar. Go read the bloody document. It sure as hell shoots your airy fairy theories right out of the water.
” … Suffice to say the resources iScotland starts off with (population, land, materials, infrastructure, education, law, government) makes complete independence very attractive and very likely to be turned into a small successful nation in not too long a time.”
Nah! It will be instant. There was comments this week on Wings that the Scottish economy was outperforming that of the UK/England. Yet those figures are bent. In the first place all oil & gas Revenue is classed by the UK as being from, “Extra-Regio Territory but up to 98% is identifiable, (go look at the definition of “Extra-Regio”), as from Scottish territorial waters. That would instantly become Scottish revenue and cease to be English revenue, (there cannot be a United Kingdom when there is only one kingdom).
Then there is the National Grid Connection Charge scam. That would stop and Scotland would claim back, (by increased prices), the 25% electricity we export to England. Go check hat one out too. What of the Scottish Crown Estate profits that Westminster moved from Edinburgh and lobbed into the English Crown Estates?
Meanwhile the Scottish pound would be hardening against the English pound and as the Scots pound soared the English pound would drop. Make no mistake – after independence Scotland would have the whip hand. Remember that Scotland is a net exporter while England is a net importer – what does that do for exchange rates?
@ Manandboy – the article you linked to about the Povlsens highland estates actually describes a very enlightened approach to land management. The Guardian’s Severin Carrell picked out one of the most forward thinking landowners. Probably for a reason i.e. to help oppose the Land Commission proposals.
link to archive.is
“How can you, “Sterlinise”, a country/kingdom that has been, “Sterlinised”, since at least 1 May 1707?”
I would add to that Robert that it is rather hilarious that if you look at the English notes and the Scottish ones, actually the only ones that claim to be “Sterling” are the Scottish ones!!!! So I think Scotland should claim the Sterling pound and England can keep its English pound with the face of the monarch of the day wearing the English crown in its notes.
@Street Andrew says:21 March, 2019 at 8:22 pm:
” … If the Brexit mad dogs get their way we’ll all be using the US Dollar anyway.
Or bartering vegetables.”
More likely bartering Grannys.
@ CameronB Brodie says at 8:36 pm …. ”re. the joint TUC/CBI statement on a no-deal Brexit, “The shock to our economy would be felt for generations to come”….
These two females, Carolyn Fairbairn Director-General of the CBI and Frances O’Grady the General Secretary of the TUC, were interviewed on Channel 4 tonight with Jon Snow saying that it was just amazing to see them together.
No Deal Brexit has been on the cards since at least January 2017 .. ”No Deal is better than a Bad Deal”, .. so why on earth have they waited for over 2 years to open their mouths and warn us all that the UK is now facing a ‘national emergency’ over a No-Deal Brexit?
In fact where have the Unions been over the last few years? Not a dicky-bird from them. Oh, I forgot too busy focusing on creating havoc in Scotland. With Independence they’ll be getting kicked out of Scotland along with the BBC.
link to channel4.com
………………..
Not long to go now, folks. From Tatu3 at 4:36pm.
link to snp.org
Robert Peffers @ 21:23,
I’m finding it hard to break through all your historical verbiage to penetrate to the essence of what you are thinking, RP, but with your continuing emphasis on differentiated Scottish and English currencies, all you really seem to be saying is that we should retain the name “pound” for ours!
(Oh, and getting our fair share of the current reserves in the BoE to set ours up, one presumes.)
As for keeping the name, I’m with Phil on this one. No more cringe, let’s return to tradition and go for the “merk”. I would have thought that you of all people would approve.
Just not right away, though, to ease people tthrough the transition. Thar seems to be SNP thinking, and suits me fine. For starters, anyway.
Steve Rodgers the finance Bloomberg money genius guy says post Brexit the £ will drop to the level of the $, Scotland will take its Independence and its oil and England will have nothing to sell so who would want to do deals with them anyway, it’d be Scotland people would be looking at
Looks like 12th April is the “no more messing us about” date.
We either agree to take part in the EU elections by that date or the UK will be out of the EU. I don’t think they’re kidding either, so parliament have a final 3 weeks to make it’s mind up. I doubt there will be any further concessions this is the end of the line.
Well the delayed press conference from Brussels seems to have been delayed. Still, it’s only 10:45 in Brussels.
link to europa.eu
@ Capella says at 9:17 pm …. ”May is apparently not at the dinner so is she pacing about in a hotel room waiting for her fate to be decided? What a state of affairs! ?”
More than likely she’s been picked up, carted off and sectioned due to being a threat to herself and more so the general public. If not she should be.
link to mind.org.uk
Thepnr @ 21:44,
Current rumour on CNN is that a failure of HoC to agree next week would trigger a further conditional extension, to avoid a no-deal exit.
Ho hum…
Scotland management team say ‘we started off well’, I can only presume he thinks the rendition of Flower of Scotland was one of the best of any Scotland team. Unfortunately it was downhill from there.
BBC now reporting that the Brussels talking could go on for hours yet. Seems they are assuming May’s deal will not pass and as she didn’t come along with a Plan B then the 27 are now deciding what Plan B might be.
Everybody scream aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhh
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 21 March, 2019 at 8:29 pm:
” … Now where did you derive that particular idea, Robert?
Directly from what you wrote, in the two parts of the text I quoted. You can’t simultaneously have a shared/linked currency, however effected, and also two currencies that observably compete.”
Well if it read like that it wasn’t my intention. What was is that Scotland had choices and whichever was chosen Scotland were in command. If the currencies were tied there would be Scots on the central bank board as the bank is partly Scottish.
If not tied the Scots pound would be the stronger but although an over strong currency is not all good it is far better than one that is falling. Norway has to keep buying Euros to prevent overheating.
On the other hand if tied to the English Pound the Scots would still be strong as, owning part of the BofE they would have Scots on the board or the English would have to buy out Scotland’s share. Not to mention that the BofE holds special large denomination notes to the value of the current Scottish Banknotes in circulation but it is in a deposit account that the Scots banks could redeem.
@ Robert J. Sutherland says at 9:42 pm …. ”As for keeping the name, I’m with Phil on this one. No more cringe, let’s return to tradition and go for the “merk”. I would have thought that you of all people would approve.”…
I don’t see many Scots being impressed with that, Robert. I can just see it, hear it now, .. ”the jerks or the berks with the merks.”
@Robert J. Sutherland
Current rumour on CNN is that a failure of HoC to agree next week would trigger a further conditional extension, to avoid a no-deal exit.
I believe they are probably right, all that is happening now seems to be they are giving the UK until the 12th of April to seek that longer extension which no doubt will have to be accompanied by a good enough reason for them to grant one.
I think May is likely to be gone by then, that alone is probably a good enough reason to allow a longer extension.
Petra@ 21:57,
Yes, fodder for BritNat propagandists. Which is precisely why I was not advocating any name change now, to avoid any such needles distractions. But after independence when we have reached the financial and emotional maturity to set up our own currency, the more differentiation the better, I would say.
But I’m sure that post-indy we will all argue about that and many other inessentials anyway! =laugh=
me @ 22:06,
“needless”, not “needles”. Duh.
@Petra
My choice is the Thistle so we get the 3 letter code SCT for it like the GBP for sterling except that will have to change to probably ENP. The other thing about the Thistle is we should set it off at SCT1 = GBP10 ot a Thistles a tenner and have it divided into thousands or mils so SCT0.001 = GBP0.01 or a mil is a p for an easy start to using the new currency
Having such a large unit is deliberate as the real value of the GBP will plummet on the division and we really do not want to end up with a currency that is only worth 50 EUR cents which is probably where the GBP will end up before we manage to disentangle ourselves
Thepnr @ 10:03,
Yes. Even now still “extremely fluid”, it seems. But it looks like the EU27 has effectively decided that after next week May is toast.
Who then…?
OK, what am I not getting?
Why all the anguish over the name for the Scottish currency?
What is wrong with ‘The Pound Scots’ (or Scotch, as in whiskey, beef or tomatoes) ?
We already have all the infrastructure do we not?
Not to mention the coins and banknotes already in circulation.
As previously stated, our banknotes are sufficiently different from the English version to prevent any confusion.
If I am just havering, (totally possible I concur) show me why and I shall sleep sounder from now onward with one less nagging thought.
UK is now facing a ‘national emergency’ over a No-Deal Brexit says the British Nationalist Media tonight (full on use of Nuclear Bunker as Command Post and everything!)
Wait out for calls for a:
Government of ‘National Unity’
SNP ignored/marginalised if indeed considered at all (as this will be a Government for One Nation Britain aka England).
and a
‘State of Emergency’
With all that entails, (possibility of Holyrood closed and direct rule imposed from London).
Tusk about to break the news of the EU’s decision to May presumably before starting the press conference.
link to twitter.com
Robert Peffers says: @21 March at 9:23pm
“Various.”
Which I would think accords with what you and like minded others write. Eg., meaning of what McCrone wrote. How else can we know anything about his memorandum other than by buying The National and reading it / saving it to our HDD.
Sterlingisation is discussed all over and is a concept used over decades by countries, one such being Panama Dollarising its economy for many years. My dislike in that case is distrust of the currency partner. Similarly Sterling sharing with England. Why should Scotland trust England as a currency partner? Not when Scotland on its own is very able to be a flourishing trading partner to many countries. Why rely on a 10 times larger currency partner (England) to honourably cooperate?
Is that an airy fairy notion? Plead guilty I guess.
Maria F: @9:33
As for the beauty of our banknotes; no question. But what is of most importance is the trust in our currency international markets display in their willingness to trade, lend and borrow. The signs I would say have been that Scotland is held in good esteem. Nicola’s team ought to ensure that is enhanced worldwide.
Unconditional extension to early April from EU says Big Auntie radio giving the PM another 3-4 weeks to get a WA.
What happens after that…. God only knows 🙁
John MacRae @ 22:16,
No worries, John. This kind of disputation is our principal national sport, don’cha know?! =wink=
Robert J. Sutherland@9:08pm
“The problem with the euro is that it was attempting to achieve political ends through economic means, whereas it should have been the other way round.”
Got it in one. The project assumed political unity could be formed through sharing a currency and ultimately a fiscal culture. A bit like the UK. However, we should all know by now that culture that is produced methodologically is brittle (see British nationalism), where as culture that is produced organically is robust (see Scottish ‘nationalism’). It also went against the awkward reality that culture shapes the economy, the exact opposite of the neo-liberal world-view.
It should also not be forgotten that the global economy was hit hard by the USofA exporting their toxic debt. It was that, the flexible ethics of the ratings companies and the hard-line neo-liberalism of the ECB that did for Greece.
tch tch. Whiskey? surely whisky if you are Scots/ scotch!!