Westminster’s offer
Posted on
August 07, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
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08 08 14 00:31
Westminster’s offer | Scottish Independence News
Ignored
Long to reign/dangle over us. Future PM Bojo went to same school in Primrose Hill as not future PM Milliband.
I say.
I just wish Stu would provide a head-in-hands-sobbing-uncontollably emoticon.
or even uncontrollably
Yup, he’s definitely gonna be Prime Minister one day – hopefully when that day comes we’ll be a few years down the independence road.
The thought of him in office is terrifying. Its amusing watching him in London, because it doesn’t affect us. The thought of him as prime minister should scare any No voter straight.
Different view of the same dangler…
http://i3.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article3258673.ece/alternates/s615/boris-johnson-300-image-2-213053530.jpg
Does that go all the way to Z?
Eddie Mair was spot on about Boris Johnson, a horrible person. I have no idea why the MSM fawn over him (I know they are mostly right wing but still..).
P
Bizarre though it is, BJ is very popular in London. The UK papers are full of him today
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-28684187
Another Bullingdon boy makes it to the top. What is it about toffs that makes them natural leaders? (no don’t bother!).
Ed will be thrilled at the prospect.
I hope Boris the Buffoon wins a seat – Scotland is then faced with the prospect of him in power and Ukip cheering.
Yes, exactly what we need as well. The one man who’s even more obsessed with London than the current front bench. Awesome.
You see as soon as we announce Plan B it is attacked.
Is Plan C still Trinny and Susannah?
In a speech to the LSE on 9/12/13, the blonde buffoon gave reasons for Scots rejecting independence : Britain would lose a “brand”. He saw a shopper in Kuwait buying underpants made in Devon, & the reason they were bought was because the shop had a Union Jack outside (I’m not making this up -see the Scotsman 10/12/13). Imagine the horror if the flag was just red, white & green…
Also, those pesky “foreigners” who settle in the UK would “struggle” to fit in because of difficulty being “English” rather than “British”. And here was silly me thinking that not so long ago, there were vans driving round Boris’s London with signs telling illegal “foreigners” to give themselves up & get back home….
Dan Lee, “the thought of him as PM should scare any no voter” Sadly for some, Vlad the Impaler could be PM. and they would still vote no.
Future teamGB PM BoJo with deputy PM Farage(Malay for vagina), dream team next time round. Easy money for Pacific Quay liggers like future DG Baron MacQuarrie, £500k per year, 3 million squid pension, got that UKIP sociopath from London elected in his annoying Scotland region, spanked AlaicSamin 18th Sept 2014, out of Europe soon as, bish bosh rule Britannia.
What ho!
My old union leader the late Bob Crow was fit for Boris!! In fact my union(RMT)not only donate not a penny to the Labour party, for the first time in the history of the union, the executive committee and then the AGM have voted unanimously to remove the words “the Labour party” from the rule book as we now view them as a branch of the tory party!!
Talking of plan Bs (subtle segue there), I had a pretty good canvassing session tonight spoiled by the last person in particular. I had more Yesses than Nos and undecideds combined, but two of those Yesses said they were only 8s after having been 10s, because of the TV debate. (Actually one said he was a 7 until I put his mind at ease about pensions.) Then the last person was a long-time Yes who says that unless the politicians start listening to people and giving them answers, he’s voting No.
He was specifically on about the currency issue. The others were on about that too. I’ve never had anyone bring it up before, but after the way Eck handled it, suddenly it’s an issue.
This needs sorted. It’s not good enough to go “it’s fine, it’s fine”. It’s been handled badly from the start, and something needs to be done, otherwise a lot of people could end up giving up their time, only to see their efforts nobbled by whoever is giving the SNP such shit advice.
Ignore the media and the unionists (same thing), and let’s give people straight answers instead. We say Scotland’s ready to make its own decisions – so let’s prove it.
Plan A is the pound and plan B is the pound. A man who got his budget forecast wrong by £500,000,000,000 and who told outright lies on national television is in no position to demand anything other than a boot in the face.
Anybody stupid enough to fall for his lies should lose the right to vote. No ifs, buts or maybes. Thickos have no right to ruin it for everybody else. Anti-social behaviour must be punished.
I’ll bet everyone in BTHQ must have all been looking at each other to see who was going to be the first one to leap out of the top office window after hearing this news. 😛
Let’s face it folks the U.K. is definitely LEAVING the E.U. In 2015 there is going to be, allegedly, a General Election for a new Westminster parliament. Now let’s look at the possibilities.
Option 1 Ed Milliband wins … oh look a flock of flying pigs just passed my window!
Option 2 David Cameron wins … awe isn’t that a shame here we are in a soon to independent Scotland and Westminster becomes the realm of fearty Cameron again.
Option 3 Clegg returns to a coalition government … remind me again who the heck is this guy Clegg everyone keeps talking about?
Option 4 Farage and UKIP get into coalition with Cameron … now we are REALLY talking scary SCARY stories here.
I think that now Boris is back in the frame, so to speak, then I’m already looking forward to the G.E. Election results programmes that night. Let’s face it folks no matter how good, bad or indifferent Labour do the talk, in fact the ONLY talk that night, will be about Boris. I think they should really rename the results show for the G.E. as the Boris Johnson show. 😛
Boris Johnson? Some people regard him as an English Mussolini. Hmm . . .
Hi Doug
I agree. Was wrong move on Salmonds part.
Could have said “this is our position, but here’s the other options the Nobel Laureates on the Fiscal commission suggested”
1) Sterlingisation
2) Currency Peg
3) Free floating Scots currency
4) Euro not possible
Thankfully we now have these 2 things to use:-
Adam Smith Institute – Press Release: An independent Scotland should keep the pound without rUK’s permission
http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-release-an-independent-scotland-should-keep-the-pound-without-ruks-permission/
AND
The big independence lie: Why Scotland could keep the pound
http://www.cityam.com/article/1394565144/big-independence-lie-scotland-could-keep-pound
Ever tried spending a £20 Scottish note in England? – just asking.
Semi O/T
Dan Lee – since you’re on here (or were 40 minutes ago) – I replied to you on an earlier thread, aware that you might not see it, so I’ll repeat myself here and hope you are still reading.
Re changing your registration to vote; don’t worry about there being 2 councils involved. When you fill in the form with your new address, you also have to tell them your old address. When the registration office in your new area gets the form and registers you there, they automatically remove you from the other roll; there is no need for you to contact both places.
@Doug Daniel
Sorry absolutely don’t agree! The Indy sites on face book are inundated with people saying Alex Salmond won hands down and did NOT agree with the MSMs review that A Darling won! They feel that they can put their trust in Salmond!
Stu, nearly pished myself laughing. By jingo ! Now there is something genuinely frighting .
@Sneekyboy
Hi Scott. I watched the debate and could not believe that Salmond said that the currency options were on page 4 of the Fiscal Commission Report! Most of the people watching will not have known what he was talking about in all likelihood. I was actually very surprised Salmond said that. Like you say it would have been much better to just list the options.
Doug, Scott
I think today’s FMQs showed the start of the answer
I think Yes is teasing out that Plan B is to use the pound without a CU. That bits not unsurprising or new. Rev Stu has already stated this.
I think the clever bit may be in two parts.
Firstly get the No campaign to fire all guns at this and enforce the idea in people’s minds their credibility exists only as long as this line of attack exists.
Secondly develop the idea that the refusal for CU is due to the Westminster government trying to tell Scotland what to do and ignoring their opinion.
When Plan B goes public then its possible that No campaigns has no place to go and that we get another group of voters who don’t like been told what they can and can’t do by Westminster.
Why did Scotlandshire region agree with future PM Bojo that
‘A pound spent in Croydon is far more of value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde’
Sorry am still going back to the future where BetterTogetherBBC have defeated Scottish independence and we now have PM BoJo and Scotland region FM Lamont, bigger nukes, student fees, nae free prescriptions ya bas, knighted Sir Gordon Brewer of Pacific Quay etc.
I know right, talk about dystopias.
YES is coming :-
http://www.snpdumfries.org/poll-shows-yes-takes-the-lead-in-south-of-scotland/2014-08
youtube.com/watch?v=CjFboRwGiqc I voted Not Thanks 2014 because PM BoJO is an upper class twit but my kind of upper class twit.
It may be worth pointing out that the image of the well-hung Bozza heading this thread is not some photoshop job. It’s real.
It is, right?
To BT/HMG please give us one positive case for rejecting independence
Answer: “What is plan B”
So I don’t think that is a positive case for the union.
@muttley79
My wife has been won over by long conversations on what it all means and she paused the TV and asked me to explain.
Afterwards she said why didn’t he just say so?
Her facebook feed (of mainly undecided/veering to no nurses in Aberdeen) were of the same opinion.
He may have won overall, but that 1 question will haunt him. He needs to come out and list the other options to show its been thought about – BUT MAKE IT CLEAR that the Currency Union is what they are going for.
We can set up a Central Bank (Scotland actually had one till the mid 19th century, but it collapsed during a crisis as it wasn’t backed by a Scottish government)
Spot on Rev. So it begins Labour voters.
1. Yes vote
2. Dave ousted
3. Random MP suddenly quits to spend more time with his directorships and the House of Lords
4. Boris elected in landslide by-election victory
5. Tories sweep to power in GE as UKIP voters return to the fold
6. Ed resigns
7. Scotland laughs / thanks the Lord / breathes sigh of relief
8. UK votes to leave EU
9. English industry decamps to Scotland to remain in EU
Doug Daniels: This whole new uncertainty thing about the currency union/plan b/no answers is nothing to do with the SNP and advice from anyone, it is a result of a pre-planned, co-ordinated attack by all the unionist parties and the media combined, they have been working on it for months.
Evidence is the gold medals of Alex Salmond that have been featuring in their photo opportunities, you don’t get them all designed and manufactured in a couple of hours, this has been a lot of preparation.
@Laukat
Next time he’s pushed on it Salmond should hold up an Isle of Man £, a Falklands £, and a Jersey £ and ask Darling/Lamont/Davidson/McDougal if the £s in his hands exist!
Well hung ? The twit should be well hung. They should have left that cock dangling .
@Scott
Said exactly the same thing to Yes pal today!
That was the way Alex Salmond of old would have done it (anyone remember the Bluff card when debating with Dewar?)
Why not turn the question on its head. What is rUK’s plan when they don’t want to share the pound and how will it affect rUK business.
A little reminder of what has transpired. Osborne started this bullshit years ago and after flying in to announce it the unionist media and press were full of “What is plan B?” and “This is the Yes campaign’s undoing”. A following poll showed a minor jump for No and the hysteria from the unionists, convinced they were right, was earsplitting. Until that one poll was found to be an outlier and the polls kept narrowing. Undaunted, they tried it again and yet another barrage of Pound scaremongering was led by Osborne several months later with the same hysteria in the unionist media. However, this time there was no small outlier bounce for No. The polls just kept right on narrowing and No shut up about it for a while and tried smearing Yes supporters instead.
Why? Because after the initial blaze of publicity scots voters returned to their real concerns since currency is considered the most important issue by only 2% of scots. (Last TNS-BMRB poll done on scottish voter concerns for independence)
There is no right answer to currency because the No campaign and the unionist media don’t give a flying fuck what the answer is. Their fear tactic is entirely contingent on trying to make currency the most salient issue (which it is not even close to being) by talking about it endlessly. The more the Yes campaign talks about currency the happier the No campaign will be.
Let the hysteria from the debate die down and THEN see just how many scots bring it up. The pattern from every other time will be repeated. Once the blaze of publicity dies down the polls will keep right on narrowing.
Why anyone would want to fight the independence referendum on the issues the No campaign want us to fight them on I must admit I find baffling. We can destroy them on trust, more tory rule and more of the same from westminster. So we should.
@Sneekyboy
Cheers Scott. Yep, Salmond should definitely just have listed the currency options. Less said the better about his questions on Project Fear, outer space, and driving on the right hand side of the road as well! Another error of judgement, although obviously not as important as the currency question.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/08/the-currency-of-hatred/
Regrettably Ian you are correct, I think the photo was taken during the lead up to the London Olympics.
I think you’re right Scott, we could set up our own Central Bank. Not only that but we’d already have the financial security to cover all our existing Scottish bank notes.
As at 28 February 2014, the three authorised banks in Scotland had a total of around £4,106 million of NIC and the four authorised banks in Northern Ireland had around £2,181 million of NIC.
I’d love to see the face of the governor of the Bank of England when our new Scottish Central Bank knocks on his door and demands OUR £4 Billion back. 😛
http://tinyurl.com/qx8yuy8
I couldn’t watch it all
@faolie thanks, “I like it, I like it like that!.. ”
-Really hope it comes true! Not long to go, but I wish more time got spent on Yes talking up brand Scotland, instead of wasting time explaining & arguing on the currency question, as it’s taking up too much time & bandwidth. There’s more to sell to the No voters on how easier it must be to start afresh away from London/SE corruption, etc and manage our own affairs for 5.5M by our own and for own folks.
ECK should string them along till early sept, the next numpty who asks “what is plan B”
ECK should hum haw for a few minutes then state “we have tried to work with you to the benefits of Scotland and UK. However cu is dead finished, we are going to set up our own central bank and print new Scottish pound notes, initially pegged to the Swiss frank”
Splutter and foul smell coming from mr Osborne as the currency markets set about destroying £ sterling. Number 10 phone lines jammed with incoming irate calls from world leaders with serious threats.
Smell of sh*t from number 10. By the end of first week £sterling worth 10p against the Scottish £.
Well I can dream doesn’t make me a bad person.
Dope on a rope
ok I swear after independence I am gonna take an economics class
Scotland currency (ie Scottish notes) are fully backed by Scotland in reserves held at the BoE, ie titans
All non note assets ie savings are in ? either BoE currency or foreign currency as investments?
So does that mean Scotland has a gold standard currency – ie BoE requires to pay Scotland exact amount of Scottish notes in circulation 3.5 billion approx
hence a central bank of Scotland would have a “foreign” currency reserve (BoE notes) exactly equal to the currency in circulation
Is that not a good thing? am confused as hell about all these things
@crazycat
Appreciate the info, never noticed the reply on the other thread. Thanks again, rested my mind. 🙂
@ Iain Gray’s Subway Lament, but clearly BetterTogether think the money in our bank accounts is their Projectfear silver bullet to kill Scottish democracy stone dead, and pulling off their more powers fraud.
So Scottish voters will decide, either no currency union is a BetterTogether bluff and Cameron will change his mind or not. If anything, it’s a big gamble by both sides of this progress towards Scottish democracy but it’s up to Scottish voters now and isn’t that what it’s all about, the people of Scotland decide.
All this UKOK brinkmanship does is show the shite level BetterTogether is operating at, scare and threaten them into NO, comfort them with fake more powers. Nothing changes, UKOK power is saved, rule BBCBritannia.
Good to see that Lamont’s, Davidson’s and Rennie’s bosses in London countersigned the pledge. Confirmation that L, D. and R. got permission from the adults to sign.
Permission to swear sir!
The above picture reminds me that I once posted that whereas I could not picture Boris in a Nazi uniform (unlike Osborne or May) I could see him in a Mussolini one. (Think infamous posthumous hanging scene). I hope that does not turn out to be prescient.
He did entertain so on HIGNFY.
Kestral: If it is a no vote, wonder what would happen to sterling if all the yes voters withdrew all their savings and put them in a euro account?
Yes – I can see the whole PM Boris plan now and why they need us so much.
London only needs £973 BILLION for it future infrastructure projects in the next 35 years.
http://www.cityam.com/1406825517/14-plans-future-london-transport-247-tube-crossrail-3
I wonder where they are going to get all the money from?
Remember ” £973 Billion pounds spent near Croydon is of far more value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde”.
Shock horror, debates about currency and the economy, and talk of Billions and Trillions, actually bores the arse off the average Scot.
Regards plans A,B,C, etc I saw a useful post on twitter demonstrating that the UK has used all of the above in the last 60 years.
GBP in Breton Woods, GBP float to USD, GBP peg to DMark, GBP into ERM, GBP free float.
It simply shows that things change over time. You need to look at and consider all the options at a given time.
It maybe also shows that a free floating currency is the ultimate destination but that does not need to happen overnight.
As things stand at the moment kestral as I understand the whole currency thingy for every Scottish pound note, be it £1, £5, £10 or whatever, there must be an equivalent amount paid into the Bank of England in English currency. This is why in the reply to Scott above I said we currently had £4 Billion being held in the Bank of England. Therefore, in my over simplistic view of economics, when we become an independent Scotland we can set up an independent Central Bank and in the process demand the return of the £4 Billion pounds, currently languishing in the BoE, to this new Central bank. 😉
OT I have just finished watching Newsnight, I don,t usually but I did tonight, and I heard one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard and also one of the best reasons for Scotland never to have a government it didn’t vote for again.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, conservative MP for Cornwall (I think) told the lady from Magic Breakfast, the charity that feeds kids breakfast in the morning, that the state provides enough money to parents to feed their children and if the children didn’t get breakfast it was because the parents were disorganised.
@heedtracker
Every single economic argument was always going to boil down to one thing. Trust. It is unavoidable. It is also why we see some voters vent their frustration on all sides because there simply is no impartial arbiter for the referendum and never will be. I realise it can be irritating for undecideds that they don’t have someone to give them a quick and easy impartial scorecard where they can tot up both sides and then choose but that is simply how it was always going to be. I even have a good deal of sympathy for them since, outside of our committed Yes circle and indeed the committed Nos, it’s just a plain fact that most scots are just struggling to get from day to day so have little time for extended debates and meetings. In the end though the undecideds will have to choose and that means choosing who they trust the most.
Which is where their own experience will come in and they have had the experience of two competent SNP administrations and decades of labour and tory misrule to guide them there. I assure you, that stark choice is most definitely NOT the ground on which the No campaign want to fight this. And with good fucking reason.
Mainly I get no response because I am not “on message” for this website which is veering towards being a discussion forum for regulars who are already committed to voting Yes. The people in my locality are mainly No with a few don’t knows. They will never convert to Yes unless the currency issue is clarified. That is the starting point for them
For AS to say we want the best for Scotland is no answer. Everyone says that, it is meaningless.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/j5875qk1clbuite/YTAIS_Factsheet_1_-_Pound_and_Currency_Union.pdf
This is an interesting summary of what the pound has gone through in the last 60 years. Currency Union, US Dollar peg, Deutsche Mark peg, ERM, …
Quite a useful perspective I think.
@Footsoldier –
What is your locality?
O/T
While we are still talking about the celebs who signed the “We Love You Scotchland” letter, can anyone explain what Dan Snow said on the Scotland Tonight programme tonight.
Wee Rona asked him why he signed it and he said it was,
“because he didn’t want to live in a country that didn’t have Scotland in it”.
Work that one out.
Lest my comment be misunderstood, I’m not saying many Yes (and maybe even some No since I’m being generous) campaigners don’t also struggle from day to day. I’m merely pointing out the reasons why you often see the harassed look on the street and on the doorsteps that indicates “Do I have to think about this NOW? I’m busy”. If you’ve been canvassing or working the streets and doorsteps you know that look by now. It is not a look of Yes or No, it is “Not now, I still have X amount of weeks/days to think about this” But soon they will have to decide.
@ Iain Gray’s Subway Lament, I think that your right with this ultimately,
it’s just a plain fact that most scots are just struggling to get from day to day so have little time for extended debates and meetings.
The opportunity for radical change is in the hands of the people of Scotland with the least in the whole of the UK. I think thats why we will win.
Hmm he didn’t want to live in a country that didn’t have Scotland IN it? is he for real? 😉
Newsflash Dan. Move to Scotland and you will not have to *ahem* lose Scotland. 😛
Doug Daniel at 10.48 and others
The FM handled the currency issue exactly right.
He did point out that there were other options in the white paper but that we would be having a currency option and we had no intention of having a Plan B.
He expanded further on this at FMQT today in sparkling form. We all know we will be having a currency union. Better Together know we will be having a currency union. Why would we concede anything else.
Alex Salmond was playing a part the other night quite deliberately and he ushered Better Together into their own trap.
If your opposition attacks you furiously on some policy it is not because the policy is wrong. It is because the policy is right. This will become increasingly obvious and rUK will be left begging for currency union immediately we start negotiations.
It is already having effect as the stream of people coming into our YES shop since the debate will testify to as they take car stickers etc saying “We know we can use the pound. Do they think we are all stupid?”
We had a stream of young mothers in today getting badges and window posters plus a mature well dressed wee WRI or Tory lady who changed from NO to YES when we established with her that Better Together was lying to her about the pound
Mary Bruce
was reading this on Wee Ginger Dug the other night
because they don’t want to spook the markets. Funny thing rapacious capitalism. It savages humanity but is itself more easily startled than a new born fawn. It’s a Bambi I’d cheerfully strangle.
more easily startled than a new born fawn –
I think they call it a contagion but not sure if masses of people demanding their money from a bank (liquidity issue) can cause it or if it’s only the fickle market trading that does it, ie panic share selling
but yeah think it might need the LoLR to step in again if we did that, problem is in the end it’s still us who pay for it
Dear foot soldier,
Its more that you come across as a false flag profile.
Read the links I have placed above. They answer the issue you refer to.
@footsoldier
I agree with you completely. I think the £ issue has been handled badly so far and is the main issue that the No people I know consistently use against the Yes campaign.
It does not have to be this way. It just needs explained better as an independent Scotland has several options but the rUK does not – without a CU it holds all the debt.
Footsoldier: You appear to be saying that everyone in your area is a no voter and that they are no because of the currency issue. Is this correct?
Are you saying there is no-one in your area who is concerned about foodbanks or inequality? That they haven’t thought about the risks or WMDs or the NHS being privatised? Do none of them prefer the idea of a social democracy rather than a future of neo-liberalism in the UK? Don’t they worry about the UK leaving the EU or the rise of UKIP? What about care for the elderly, child care or prescription charges? Aren’t they concerned about Scotland having to make cuts in order to contribute billions to trident, HS2 and all the other London infrastructure projects?
That’s a terrible shame that they all seemed to be concerned with just whether or not the UK government is bluffing about the currency union. It is a very unusual place that you live.
Scotland will use the pound is a known. It could be formal union, informal or Scottish Pound.
What *is* unknown is whether George Osborne can convince English businesses to incur additional transaction taxes and if taxpayers in England are willing to accept the full sovereign debt of the UK and therefore the possibility of higher taxes and interest rates.
Alex Salmond needs to take this into the next debate.
Heedtracker, “Long to reign/dangle over us.” is right up there with Lauren’s (on that Twitter thingmy)”she nips ma tits” as Laugh Of The Day.
On the currency union question I’m beginning to think this is a bit like the offer of having Devo Max on the ballot paper. The Nos went into overdrive insisting that it wasn’t going to happen. Is the FM doing the same here? Let’s face it, if WM categorically rules out a CU it will leave them with all the debt. He outlined the options again today at FMQs and pointed out that if the assets aren’t shared an independent Scotland would be debt free. Today the difference was he emphasised we will use the pound but without the insistence on a currency union. I think they may have fallen into another trap engineered by the FM. He’s good at playing a long game.
On the currency issue, I think Alex Salmond pinned the tsail on this particular donkey at F.M.Q.’s today when, in response to one of Lamont’s NON questions he made mention of Osborne and Balls going round England next year telling the electorate that the BoE was theirs and ALL the debt was theirs because they had REFUSED to accept an annual £5 Billion payment from Scotland to help towards the debt repayment! Boy I’d love to be at ANY of the hustings either of these idiots holds during the General Election when they tell the audience that one! 😛
Lesley-Anne
I agree.
An important principle for me is that the Westminster Government will have explained the risks and rewards to their electorate of denying Scotland a currency union.
http://www.milngavieherald.co.uk/news/scottish-headlines/dornan-switches-to-yes-campaign-1-3503015
@foalie,
I had the same thoughts a few months ago. However, the fact that Boris is making this move now is interesting.
Dave will have to go if he loses the referendum which will leave the field open for a Boris / Gideon battle for rUK PM.
I wonder if he has seen the mysterious secret Indy polls ?
Well I guess the *ahem* Big Debate went well for the NO side then. It looks like Stephen Dornan, who campaigned for a No vote has now come out and is now supporting YES.
This from the STV news site.
http://tinyurl.com/mdqfyuv
Actually I am beginning to wonder if we would be better dumping most of the debt and just going with our own currency
Assume the Boe has to hand over our titans as they are completely different than the debt which is government owned
In all real fairness we go for fiscal share of the debt minus any overpayment we have made servicing uk debt and not our own
so not a market in the world could ever say we didn’t take our fair share – so thats the end of that BT scare
Now the one question a bank manager always asks when you go for a loan – what other debt do you have
Having too much debt makes you a risk to lend too and I believe that might be how markets would see it as well
Having much reduced fiscal fair share of the debt proves we are good for our debt, but also makes us great to lend too as we don’t have 2 much debt
Just like parent being guarantors we could use future oil reserves to guarantee our willingness to pay – these are never used as long as you keep up your payments
this ability to borrow would balance the shock effects that might happen with oil prices allowing us to borrow if oil takes a plunge and payback next year when oil prices rise
not sure, so much to understand about it all
To be honest kestral there is a significant number of people on here and elsewhere who would prefer the no currency union and no debt route. In a lot of ways it does actually make sense and to be fair it is one of the options that Alex Salmond keeps mentioning so it’s not something that he is not thinking about. I think the reason he keeps with the C.U. idea is because as soon as he changes his tune then the unionists parties would be all over him with stuff like aha you’ve changed your mind on CU what next?
I remember something, 22 years ago. A boyish-looking Alex Salmond was being interviewed by Brian Walden, on his political show. (Bear in mind Salmond was only 37 at that point.) The reason for the interview was that the SNP were running the “Free by 93” campaign for the 1992 general election – vote for us and we’ll declare independence and that will be the end of the Tories for us.
The campaign was obviously doomed from the get-go, but afterwards I felt it might have been worth it in the long term, because it got the UK-wide media talking seriously about the possibility of Scottish independence. And it did. The coverage was a lot more unbiassed than what we’re getting today, for the simple reason that nobody really believed it was going to happen so it was safe to talk about it.
Anyway, Salmond was on Walden, and I watched it, and I was really disappointed by his performance. All the clever arguments and put-downs he could have used but didn’t. Dearie me.
Well off the back of that I joined the SNP, realising that it was going to be a long fight and I might as well sign up for it. A little while later another new member joined our branch, someone who had been quite high up in the Labour party until he left on account of them abandoning the commitment to unilateral nuclear disarmament. We ended up car-sharing to meetings, because we lived quite near each other.
He mentioned the Walden interview as one of his main reasons for deciding to join the SNP. I was amazed, and said I hadn’t been at all impressed. The Labour old-timer explained to me why I was wrong. I wasn’t the audience. Salmond knew that the main thing was not to become a trophy on Walden’s mantelpiece, and few seasoned politicians could achieve that. He’d done it. Joe was so impressed by the performance that he decided the SNP was a serious outfit and worth joining.
I always remember that. I was already committed, and I wasn’t the audience. Don’t think about how I reacted to the performence, look at how it played out with the real audience.
So maybe Salmond has lost it in the intervening 22 years. Oh wait, he’s now the FM of Scotland, having been elected by a bloody landslide, and has achieved the referendum he set his sights on way back then. No I don’t think he’s lost it. Wait and see.
Read this footsoldier:
http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/the-jeremy-clarkson-of-the-independence-debate/
@kestral,
in many ways I think a separate currency and no debt would be a good solution.
I think we will just follow the Eire route over time, use UK£, soarstat £ pegged to UK£, floated punt, and then joining the Euro if beneficial long term.
These are all sensible options and have been done before. The timescales depend on Indy negotiations with rUK and our longer term relationships with rUK and Europe.
I do not see how we can be bullied by rUK and the treasury when they have 1.4tr£ of debt.
They need us more than we need them!
CU what next – do partly agree here – it can only be utterly hellish suffering what he/we have with the MSM
mabye he should begin to lay out taking a fiscal share of the debt if we don’t get the pound
Honestly think as has been shown the people of scotland really don’t like being told no you can’t have
I think fiscal share of the debt avenue could be really good
people understand debt and are scared of it for good reason – coming away with approx 1/4 of the debt we could end up with is one huge huge vote winner
It also totally avoids the problem of defaulting on debt argument of BT – we won’t be defaulting on anything
Its actually in the white paper as an option – so it’s standard policy
Only thing is it’s a pre-negotiation that sets the line
however if its a vote winner, we can deal with the lines in the sand later
Lets face it
40 billion debt and our own currency
140 billion debt and sterling
they can keep it
@Morag –
Very interesting.
Past my bedtime now, but perhaps someone will track down footage of the Walden/Salmond encounter…
Iain Gray’s Subway Lament: “Every single economic argument was always going to boil down to one thing. Trust.”
Indeed. And what those people told me tonight is they are less trustful of Salmond than they used to be because of Tuesday night.
I’m not saying people are going to vote No on the back of one substandard performance from Eck. But we can’t keep pretending there’s not a problem here. As Stu said right from the start, the “bluff and bluster” line can’t hold until polling day. I agree with Dave that Eck was good at FMQs, but why keep this for when few people are watching? He should have been doing that on Tuesday. As Scott says, just explain the situation properly. That’s all people want.
FMQs would suggest the strategists know they ballsed Tuesday up and now realise there’s got to be a change in how the currency message is made. It’ll remain an issue until they do.
You don’t need to go down the road of if we don’t get the pound kestral we WILL get the pound, there is NO argument about this, it is FACT! No one can stop us from using the pound it is an internationally tradeable currency so anyone can use it.
The only way we as an independent Scotland would feel obliged to take on any share of Brown’s/Darling’s/Osborne’s £1.4 Trillion debt would be if we had a currency union kestral. Without a C.U. there is no requirement for us to take on any of the U.K.’s debt. Remember Osborne has already told the money markets that ALL of the U.K. debt will be paid off by Westminster. Therefore Scotland has NO debt. How could we Scotland as it currently sits is prohibited from acquiring any debt.
If we were to take on ANY debt kestral it would not be 1/4 of the U.K.’s debt it would be approximately 10%, around about £140 Billion. Everything is worked out as a population share and as Scotland’s population is around 10% of U.K. total population then we only take on 10% of the debt.
As I’ve already hinted at Scotland has no debt and therefore once we become independent we would not be reneging on any debt. You can only default on debt payments if you actually have debt. The BT squad are running around in their confusion state again. they are confusing the debt we would take as part of the C.U. with defaulting if we had no debt. As I’ve already pointed out no C.U. means we can walk away with NO debt because WM has already claimed ownership of ALL of the U.K. debt.
But Nick Clegg has signed that ‘love Boris’ pledge so it’s not going to happen!
O/T up and down the closes in Partick tonight the message was very positive.
Plenty folk out on a fine evening but those who were in constituted 2 definite NOs, 1 not interested (possibly NO but hopefully a non-voter), 3 making their tea, 1 just going for a shower, 2 not really engaged yet but left with leaflets and encouragement but at least 12 definite YESs who were desperate for window posters – especially the youngsters who wanted to share them out with their pals. A couple of them said their age group, 20 somethings, were heavily behind YES and let’s face it they are who we are doing this for. Us old fogeys won’t get as much out of Independence as they will apart from pride, satisfaction and relief.
Looks like what you encountered tonight Graham is what is happening all over Scotland and THIS is why we will win on 18th September. 😛
Apologies if this has already been mentioned …
After Thursday’s front page splash in the London Evening Standard, of the list of celebs wanting Scotland to stay in the UK, described by the paper as ‘a new blow to Salmond’s independence campaign’, Boris Johnson offers his thoughts on Scotland on page 9.
This is verbatim:
‘What has England ever got out of this devolution process?’
Boris broke ranks with David Cameron over plans to let Scotland keep more of its taxes, arguing that London had a stronger claim to such powers. ‘Ever more things we are giving Scotland!’ he exclaimed. ‘Alex Salmond has been thrashed in these debates – but for no reason we are promising Scots more tax-raising powers. Quite why, I don’t understand, There’s no need to do it.’
He demanded: ‘What has England ever got out of this devolution process? If you want to have growth in the English cities then you should do what Manchester wants, what Liverpool, Leeds, all of us want – and that is to give us more tax-raising powers.’
–––––
Quite breathtaking I thought, follows on from his infamous line – ‘A pound spent in Croydon is of more value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde.’ Boris aims to be the next Conservative Prime Minister after Cameron. It is clear the he wishes Scotland’s money to remain in London and begone with those chippy Jocks who have laughable ideas of spending their own money in their own country.
Boris as a Prime Minister, oh, my God, just, Oh my God.
For some strange reason I have always imagined him as an adult that still wears nappies changed dutifully by his nanny who has been the only thing to a mum he has known.
If you want his nanny in charge vote no to independence, lol.
Where are the real men and women in politics, not those tossers born with a silver spoon in their mouths?
Backwards in time we go, backwards in time!
Morag,
“No I don’t think he’s lost it. Wait and see.”
Alex Salmond is an exceptionally clever politician and he wouldn’t have made ‘mistakes’ in Scotland’s biggest debate of 300 years, and probably his biggest in his political life.
We would have loved it if he had demolished Darling, something he could have easily done if he wanted to.
But I am sure he made some calculated moves to increase the Yes vote, although we who are already Yes might not see it that way at the moment.
Polls show that the currency is not a top priority for most voters.
By making Darling go on about Scotland being refused the pound, I am sure Alex Salmond succeeded in making many voters openly see Darling and the No side as the bullies and cheats they are.
The next stage will be: ‘keep your pound and keep your national debt, end of austerity from the word go for independent Scotland.’
That will surely be an extremely attractive option and guarantee a Yes vote.
@lesley – anne.
Well said (for the village idiot..kidding xx)
I tend to agree with the point about differing audiences as said earlier by Morag.
The figures being banded about seem to suggest the FM hit a bullseye with the intended audience.
I am sure there is a plan in motion here by the FM, and allowing flipper to bang on and on about Currency was part of that plan.
Merely my opinion here, but i reckon AS and Yes will wait until late in the day to clarify the currency issue so that BT have no time to rebuff it then fire the uncomfortable questions about how a Scotland using the pound without a CU will affect ruk ?
He may throw out a statement shortly before the 18th stating that due to the continuing refusal to negotiate CU with Scotland if the vote is Yes, we are now withdrawing that idea and going with one of the other contingency plans as outlined in the white paper.
This change of heart can be easily fielded by stating yet again that we were trying to do what was best for Scotland AND ruk but if they still flat refuse the “best for both” option then sadly, in the purely Scottish interest, the ruk will have to fund their own shortfall after we leave with all the resources and none of the debt.
The world will view us as having tried to do the right thing and realise Scotland is a decent fair minded new recruit to the world.
If people ask me what currency, i just ask them what they think they will use on 19th september when they reach the checkouts if we cannot use the pound.
I ask them if they think they will get free goods, after all, how can a pack of frozen chicken cost say, 4 pounds when we are not allowed pounds and apparently will have no currency.
Everything would be free maybe, or will we have to barter away our first born in return for goods ?
First person in my family told me that was ridiculous, then had a wee think and as it dawned on them, a wee nod of the head and an audible “oh aye, right enough”
This will go right to the wire, last week before po?ling day will decide this imo as the reality of what a No (in particular) means to folk.
Is anyone feeling the benefit from his multiplying effect, coming from spending all those £££’s in London yet ?
Me neither.
As someone once said the priority is not what a currency would be, it’s how much of it is in your pocket!
The currency issue?
A nation having a strong dependable currency and firm hand on the tiller eh? What, like now? The same currency and management that has worked so wonderfully well for everyone to date. A currency we have no say or control over and a long term political deal with restrictions and the ceding of power and responsibility involved. A currency deal which sees the us at the mercy of someone else setting the interest rates blah, de blah, de blah. Wait now, that sounds familiar.
The answer is there for everyone to see in terms of what piece of paper will be in their pocket. Its been stated time and again.
What I think people are down and or disappointed about is that the FM didn’t punish Darling. I think we were looking for payback for three years of fear and smear. We wanted to see Salmond take the man apart, as we know only too well he is capable of doing. But he didn’t and we feel cheated of some justice.
So what was the idea behind the strangely subdued and reasonable approach as opposed to the fire and fierce command of facts and figures we know the man is well capable of? Was the FM simply under the weather and off form? Operating to a predetermined plan? Or do we think that Darling really came across well in the debate?
I honestly can’t make my own mind up, but I saw a shouty man, yelling out words and phrases without seemingly any self control. FOLLY! CHAOS! STUPIDITY ON STILTS! Someone wildly waving his arms and using pointy waggy fingers to make a point. In response I saw someone come out from behind a podium with figures to hand to speak person to person with a questioner and using conversational measured tones. I don’t think Alex Salmond ever had any intention of destroying Alistair Darling in that debate for us.
I think he really could have taken Darling apart on currency for all the reasons and tactics that plenty of posters have commented on above. If we can figure those options and tactics out do we really think Alex Salmond hasn’t?
I’m not a fan of the televised debate, never have been, but it is a tool to reach both everyone and selected targeted segments. A hammer or a scalpel. Just a feeling.
Oh no!..Who’s goin tae design Bob’s new shell suit.
http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2014/08/07/letter-to-scotland-by-stars-better-together-campaign
The bandwagon,with nae wheels,has just got even more ridiculous.
Foot Soldier: For AS to say we want the best for Scotland is no answer. Everyone says that, it is meaningless.
That has to be the silliest statement on this thread.
Every No politician has their entire investment in London. Those who cannot deduce that are not looking or thinking.
And please don’t insult Yes supporters by saying because you take a contrary line you must be right and the rest of us misguided because we allegedly are ‘on message.’
At this stage in the campaign Akexander Salmond needs every support that can be given. The guy is constantly attack from the malicious, lying NO campaign. Not to be attacked from YES campaigners as well The armchair critics should ‘haud their whis’t’unless they what to be a fifth column for the NO. Cut off their noses to spite their face.
The outcome of the biased ‘Debate’ was more women are supporting YES. They fancied Alex more than Alistair. A wider audience was hearing the arguments, possible for the first time and liked what they heard from the YES campaign. Ie they liked what Alex said and the vision for Scotland.
Alistair Darling is the best asset the YES campaign could have. One of the most unpopular politicians in Britain. The sight of him reminds people ‘of the man who bankrupted Britain’. It insults people’s intelligence to take lectures from him. Never interrupt your foe when they are making mistakes. Alistair Darling was appointed ‘head’ of the NO group by Westminster to take the stick when things go wrong, To channel public money, without a Mandate, illegally, to the NO campaign from corrupt Westminster. To keep the pigs at the trough.
What happened to the Referendum being a matter for the people in Scotland?
I know from my own Facebook feed that some females saw Darling as the ‘smug’ one. The same people have also found out, through their own efforts, that no-one can stop Scotland using the pound. I can only hope similar realisations are going on country-wide.
Westminster ‘divide and rule’
Most of the voters don’t give a damn about currency, the Crown or the EU.. They are are not game changers. They have other priorities. Westminster corruption and lies. The NHS/education, people being sanctioned and going to food banks. Cold ill-nourished people getting sick, the wealth gap rising. People in Scotland having the right to self governance and self respect. Ie democracy.
Scott Minto (aka sneekyboy)says
“Could have said “this is our position, but here’s the other options the Nobel Laureates on the Fiscal commission suggested”
1) Sterlingisation
2) Currency Peg
3) Free floating Scots currency
4) Euro not possible”
Oh!
And there was me thinking he did exactly that when he outlined what the whitepaper said on, oh let me see? PAGE 111,
This collective (selective?) deafness is getting worse,
how many times does he have to say what plan B will be before they listen to him ,he’s repeated it often enough.
Paula Rose says
“Ever tried spending a £20 Scottish note in England? – just asking.”
I have to be honest Paula and say no, apart from when I was about 15 years old and looked well dodgy mate! 🙂
Having said that I do recall when I spent most of my time working in England (London) I did actually make a point of going into the bank and asking for English notes before I went dann saff.
Footsoldier says
“They will never convert to Yes unless the currency issue is clarified. That is the starting point for them”
Sniff sniff,
I smell shite
“For AS to say we want the best for Scotland is no answer. Everyone says that, it is meaningless.”
Whats best for Scotland v Best of both worlds,
take your pick.
Morag says
” No I don’t think he’s lost it. Wait and see.”
Im with you on that one Morag, I think he’s playing Darling like a fish and will swallow him whole when he thinks the time is right, the other nights performance was a feint.
Kestrel @ 12.55
trouble with walking away from the debt right or wrong, our duly earned debt or not, we have to look at the bigger picture and how Scotland walking off into the sunset without a bean of debt would play with the English public,
The (uninformed) population of England already think we get free prescriptions and free education from them so would see us walking off without taking our (fair share?) of the debt as an unforgivable act and would create a large counter swell of anti Scottish opinion in England,
Do we really want a scenario where Scots cant go to England for fear of being attacked (or worse)?
Can anyone remember the boycott of Argentinian goods (corned beef)in the 80’s when they invaded the Falklands,?
It was all forgotten about in a year,
Argentina is far away, Scotland is right next door,
they wont forget or forgive quite so quickly, especially if they can see Scotland making a fist of it and suceeding in setting up an oil fund, the perception in England will be (and you can absolutly bet the Daily Mail et al will ensure it is) that England set Scotland up for sucess with thier (percieved) generosity while they have to pay the bill
remember how easy it was/is for the msm to portray the meltdown of RBS,Lloyds, etc as being the fault of Scotland, it wouldnt take thm long to run with that one to stir up anti Scottish sentement to the point we would not have a trading partner in England,(whom we need as much as they need us)
Im sorry folks like it or not we have NO CHOICE but to play this with a straight bat and suck up the debt we know we dont owe!
Jim says
“If you want his nanny in charge vote no to independence, lol.”
I wouldnt go down that road Jim, it gives the impression Johnson is just a little spoilt brat who could be dealt with by a swift cuff round the ear,
Imho Johnson is as dangerous if not more so than Osbourne, IDS, Cameron and Farage all put together.
When these biased ‘debates’ are held. Why do the YES supporters who want to be in the audience, just say they are a NO? So they don’t get knocked back.
People already change Scottish pound for English when they travel South.
Currency is just a form of exchange, no matter it is called.
What matters is if the books are balanced. They have been in Scotland since 1928, (surplus), and the economic freedom to decide the priorities. That’s democracy.
Im with you on that one Ken
I think its an innate sense of fair play,
I do that to myself every time I try to get on Good Morning Scotland when Im asked what my question is and invariably given a body swerve because it wouldnt be in the BBC’s interests to allow questions from people like us.
I know we are all eager, but I think everyone is forgetting that this is a two legged match.
Not exactly home and away, but it will be the arguments from the 25th of August debate that will be fresh as we enter into voting.
Best keep the powder dry for that one, expectations have now been nicely reset after the 5th of August debate.
Single issue campaigns are always doomed to fail, especially when that issue is easily deconstructed.
@John King
You and Morag getting that feeling too? I think that was a measured performance, not at winning the debate, but at winning a specific vote. Of course I’m no political anorak and I don’t like political games and strategies, but we’re all very familiar with Alex Salmond and his capabilities. I think he’s targeted a specific segment and at the same time laid a rat trap.
As Morag said, wait and see.
Losing the biased ‘Debate’ but winning the argument and more YES voters.
The only winners are STV shareholders
@Macart says:
@John King
You and Morag getting that feeling too? I think that was a measured performance, not at winning the debate, but at winning a specific vote.
… and the other guy (the ProudScot), with £1.5M Scots watching, blew it by being unable to confirm, after ten times of asking, that Scotland could be a successful small country.
@Scott Minto
Could have said “this is our position, but here’s the other options the Nobel Laureates on the Fiscal commission suggested”
1) Sterlingisation
2) Currency Peg
3) Free floating Scots currency
4) Euro not possible
He actually does say that every time by referring to the Fiscal Commision Paper.
The problem is with the media. If any one of these options is presented as plan B then the next headline will be:
Nats admit defeat on Currency Union
Followed by weeks of:
Darling/Cameron/Miliband says [insert plan B here] will result in [insert doom and gloom here] and will be a disaster for Scotland.
Naming plan B would be an open goal for the press/Better Together/the BBC.
It’s a problem but Doug Daniel’s right and it’s got to be handled better in some way without explicitly naming a plan B.
Does anyone know what happened to the mass canvass the other night? I saw a few results on twitter that were excellent but haven’t seen anything on the Radical Independence timeline. I saw that Foulkes and Ian Smart were being snide on twitter last night about Kevin Pringle and his mass canvass. Not sure it’s anything to do with him, (is he involved with RI?) but I would like to see the full results.
Miliband on GMS right now, speaking in tongues…
I have full confidence that Alex is playing the long game, and if he has people here wondering what he’s up to then the impact of that final blow (re. the preferred, or not! CU option) will be all the more substantial when seen through the eyes of an undecided voter just before polling day!
Westminster will be reeling when they realise what their complacency has cost them!
@Calgacus
Exactly so. He was seen for all the world to denigrate the country he is supposed to be so proud of belonging to. He couldn’t even simply lie and say the word YES. And the more he was urged, the more he veered wildly away. He simply wouldn’t say of course Scotland could be a successful independent nation, but…
It would have blown his entire three year narrative out of the water.
He’s no proud Scot. He’s a Westminster politician and they have no country only politics and the exercise of power.
Oh you unbelievers!, Team YES are not just Alec Salmond, they have some of the best debaters and strategists in the
Planet, Mr Salmond would have been running to a well rehearsed script. Have faith.
@Wp says: 7 August, 2014 at 10:35 pm:
Dan Lee, “the thought of him as PM should scare any no voter” Sadly for some, Vlad the Impaler could be PM. and they would still vote no.
Well they voted for, “Cam the Implausable”, didn’t that?
No sensible person thinks that Scotland will walk away without taking a share of the debt just as no sensible person thinks a currency union will be rejected by rUK.
But if rUK if by some insanity were to cut off its nose to spite its face etc etc
BTW I have listened again to the debate and AS on project fear is brilliant if you can hear his third example of project fear. Noise from the chairman and Darling unfortunately caused the punch line to be obscured.
Ian Brotherhood
Listened to Miliband on GMS drone on, found him very condescending talking to Gary Robertson. It was the ‘look Gary’ like some smart arse talking down to a pal in a pub.
Miliband didn’t even bother answering any questions, just used Robertson’s questions as a lead to attack Alic Salmin and or the SNP.
Miliband is a complete charlatan
Perhaps a transcript of the leading debate points with the “noise” removed?
Ken500: “At this stage in the campaign Akexander Salmond needs every support that can be given. The guy is constantly attack from the malicious, lying NO campaign. Not to be attacked from YES campaigners as well The armchair critics should ‘haud their whis’t’unless they what to be a fifth column for the NO. Cut off their noses to spite their face.”
Err, I’m telling folk what I heard while out canvassing last night, so kindly “haud yer wheesht” with the “armchair critics” pish, ta.
Harry McAye/Everybody reading this,
Regarding the RIC mass canvass. Can I put forward a suggestion, so we can get more posters and car stickers showing.
Ask RIC and your local YES group for the addresses of those who have told them they will be voting YES.
Post the YES window posters and a car sticker through every one of their letter boxes.
It’s a great way to raise the YES profile in your area and gives others that wee bit of confidence to join them, in putting up their own YES posters.
Westminster tax evading troughers have illegally and fraudulently (hey what’s new), without a mandate channelled £1Billion of public money into the NO campaign. Vulnerable ill nourished cold people are drying early, people are sanctioned and walking to food banks, while Westminster troughers are still at it.
Wionder what the Westminster controlled Electoral Commision will do about it.
@ Channelled £Million+ into the NO campaign
Hi Ian Brotherhood. Just caught-up on your comment about the ‘Boris-Dangler’. Yip it is right I remember it well from the Bittertogether News bulletin on the day it happened and did I laugh, not only did I nearly choke (having diner at the time) I almost wet myself and my sides were sore for a week. But be warned the man may be a ‘BUFFOON’ but he’s a dangerous ‘BUFFOON’.
Auld Rock
I bumped into an occasional acquaintance last night, whom I had not seen for a few months.
He is a full-time trade union officer, a member of the Labour Party, but, he will be voting Yes.
He was telling me he was at a high-level meeting of his union in Glasgow earlier this week, at which he and the other union officers were pleaded with to get out there and deliver Bitter Together leaflets. He said he was not alone in refusing.
He revealed the Labour Party in Scotland is in downright panic at the surge in Yes support and the very real probability that Yes will win – because they know, if Scotland goes independent, the Labour Party will never again form a Westminster government.
So, it’s not so-much Better Together as better for us together.
But, I think we knew this.
Milliband on GMS. There’ll be no currency union but nonetheless he’d like us to take our share of the debt. Doubtless he’d like us all to take turns cleaning the cesspit at Milliband Mansions too.
And a spin doctor has told him that the poorest in Scotland are likely to vote Yes, so he starts the interview with a soundbite that ‘the poor will suffer most with a Yes vote’. That’s the level of research he’s conducted and the level of respect the Scottish people are afforded by this balloon.
Send him and his Westminster pals out of Scotland, never to return after 18 September.
What you’ve heard is hearsay and not Universal
What about the other positives.
@Doug Daniel says: 7 August, 2014 at 10:38 pm:Talking
“Ignore the media and the unionists (same thing), and let’s give people straight answers instead. We say Scotland’s ready to make its own decisions”
Wasn’t, “Scotland will use the pound with or without a Currency union”, not a straight and definitive enough answer for you?
Don’t you understand that after Scotland tells Westminster that we will use the pound and request a currency union that the choice of currency union is smack in the absolute centre of Westminster’s court?
There is only one plan. Use our own currency, “The Pound Sterling”, and, if they reject a currency union, it is Westminster’s own choice to accept the entire UK national debt by continuing to trade as, “The United Kingdom”, after the United Kingdom has disunited.
Salmond has now led them into the trap he set.
Here’s facts :
1 – Westminster has stated that the National debt is legally that of the United Kingdom.
2 – The Treaty of Union that formed the United Kingdom only has two signatory Kingdoms .
3 – When a bipartite union ends it has disunited. Thus no more UK.
4 – By continuing as the UK the de facto Parliament of England at Westminster is the owner of the UK’s debts.
That’s it – Scotland uses the pound and England either accepts the entire UK debt and loses the entire value of Scottish exports which there is no way they could do without the English pound sinking into free-fall or Westminster comes cap in hand begging for a currency union.
Incidentally, I heard John Swinney pretty much saying “if we can’t have a currency union, then shove your debt up your arse” (not in those words, obviously) on radio today, so clearly there is indeed a change being made in how the currency issue is dealt with.
Obviously, we can all decide for ourselves whether this is merely the latest stage in The Great Currency Debate Plan, of which Tuesday was the “make them think we don’t know how to deal with it” stage; or if it’s a sign that they realise they mucked up a bit and are now trying to sort things out so that this doesn’t become some sort of glorified referendum on the pound. Personally, I think it’s the latter. Salmond’s great, but he’s no more infallible than the rest of us, as the way the EU message was initially handled showed.
That was some hammering Darling gave Salmond in that debate the other night.
It was so bad that polls show the majority of undecided voters have come out in support of Independence.
We have also had Iain MacWhirter, ex BBC, confirm he will be backing the YES campaign, then last night, Labour councillor for Govan, Stephen Dornan, turning his back on the NO campaign and back the YES to Scottish Independence campaign.
I didn’t watch the debate because I knew it was an STV set-up, but it seems to me that the YES campaign have made all the gains.
Mayor BoJo’s main contribution to London has been to do nothing very radical at all. He’s the ultra right Con middle class England likes, the Guardian/Private eye reader that sits on trains to London paid for by region like Scotland and UKOK oil and they run twice a day.
So Boris makes trains run on time, takes credit for Red Ken stuff, and above all BoJo wants to pump billions more into London Transport for that massive multiplier that he tries to explain with his a pound in Croydon is better spent than in Strathclyde.
London Cross rail costs over £15 billion with a £45 billion multiplier so Boris says “we’ll have another one.” Who pays? UK oil based borrowing and if the ingrate Scotch don’t like it, Baron MacQuarrie’s team at pacific quay will sort them out again, won’t they?
Safety, security, part of something bigger, vote BBC/UKOK or we’ll set Gordon Brewer on you. Then you’ll really will be sorry, too small, poor, stupid Scotch.
What a surprise Boris announces his intention to stand again for parliament now. Just in time to make a bid for leadership of the tory party, when Cameron has to stand down after 18 September.
@Elspeth says: 7 August, 2014 at 10:50 pm:
Boris Johnson? Some people regard him as an English Mussolini. Hmm .
Aye! Elspeth and many, in more southern climes, see Boris as the English/London messiah. Personally I see him as yet another nasty Bullingdon Club buffoon.
Yet another Ex Labour Councillor moves over.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9558-former-no-campaign-councillor-defects-to-yes
My thoughts….
rUK will agree to currency Union very quickly to stop the pound plummeting.
Salmond must not spell out a Plan B. BT will say Plan A is off, and then attack B. And, since B is inferior to A it will be even harder to defend. Stick with A!
BT lie. An increasing number of Scots are seeing that they lie. So, let them continue to lie!
Robert Pfeffers: “Wasn’t, “Scotland will use the pound with or without a Currency union”, not a straight and definitive enough answer for you?”
I wish people would actually read what I’m saying… It’s not me that needs convinced, and I certainly don’t need the ins and outs of the currency options explained to me, thanks. I know fine that we’ll be using the pound. But folk on the doorsteps last night were not impressed with how Salmond handled the currency question, so now those of us chapping doors are left to try and clear up the mess.
Unless they sort it out, which from FMQs yesterday and John Swinney on the radio today, is hopefully exactly what they’re doing.
When people are in a hole stop digging. It looks ill advised.
Many people are chapping doors and currency overall is never the main issue. Neither is EU or the Crown. Statistically Polls show it.
Boris will be back in Westmidden with his eye on the top job.
Best news for a while. If he doesn’t spell out the ongoing Tory threat from a NO win, nothing will.
He is on records as saying a few nasty things about Scotland, I believe?
People who support Union concentrate on currency/Crown/EU because they cannot address the main issues. That is why their campaign will likely fail. Useless.
@John King
“Oh! And there was me thinking he did exactly that when he outlined what the whitepaper said on, oh let me see? PAGE 111, This collective (selective?) deafness is getting worse”
There’s a world of difference between giving someone an answer and telling them to go look up an answer.
We’re late in the game now so if these folk haven’t bothered looking for the info yet, they wont now. We need to give them the info directly or they will just rely on the MSM and that’s not good.
sorry if this has been covered before. Re using Sterling, BT keep mentioning Panama as if it’s a dirty word. Isn’t Panama doing pretty well with slightly smaller population than Scotland? However, their wealth isn’t well distributed i.e very unequal country. Can anyone with more economics knowledge than me expand?
No one chapping on doors will have to anything, but continue chapping on doors.
I see the Evening Express continues to report with glee any vandalism against better together signs:
http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/video-shows-vandal-attack-on-better-together-sign-1.512973
I agree with Doug. Most folk on the doorsteps haven’t read the white paper. They genuinely wanted “plan B” spelled out to them.
I spoke to a Yes the other day who was a 9 before the debate and 6 after. I explained the currency, pointed her toward the white paper and by the end of the conversation she was back to a 9 and giving me reasons to vote Yes.
Undecided folk leaning to yes genuinely wanted answers and reassurance from the debate. Salmond needed to calmly explain the options and say why currency union was plan A – not to cite the page number of what to most people is an obscure report.
The good thing is that this issue is coming to a head (I hope) now and not the week before the vote.
Alex Salmond needs to move away from the “sovereign will of the Scottish people” rhetoric and get back to the and economic facts and real politics of the situation.
We have a strong hand to play and can equally force the opposition to show more of their hand.
@Atholl
Very strange they just happened to video themselves in the act!
Smells like another BT black opps to me.
And on that subject did anything come of the alleged fire bomber in the shopping centre that the BTUKOKNOTHANKSers informed us had happened in broad daylight?(Don’t answer that it’s rhetorical)
Thought NOT 😀
I hope all those NO voters out there realise what they are doing.
Vote NO and get a Tory/UKIP Westminster Government with Boris Johnston for PM and Nigel Farage for Deputy PM.
Like most who comment on these threads I am fed up of the nicey nicey way in which YES is handling the debate.
Westminster has turned the referendum into a total war, so its no use fighting a clean fight when the enemy of the Scottish people is employing every trick in the book on our emotions.
We would surely get a landslide YES vote on 18 September if our YES politicians would write and speak with true passion like Wee Ginger Dug has done here:–
http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/08/07/vote-nob-orders-for-nobs/comment-page-1/#comment-9179
So come on YES before its too late.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/exclusive-secret-internal-police-report-points-to-highly-corrupt-cells-in-the-met-9655352.html
The debate made more people engaged. People are more likely to access the White Paper, more women will vote YES and more non voters. It is proved time and time again once people engage they are persuaded by the YES argument. From NO to YES.
The debate also (probably a first) made Alex Salmond look like an underdog (rigged debate). There is nothing the British public like more than an underdog.
Saw the debate; pretty sure I watched a draw not a win for Darling by any stretch, (did he in fact answer any question ?).
It suggested the FM’s sticky area was ‘the pound’ and Darlings was the continually elusive ‘more powers’ magic bullet.
Also feel many are getting in a blind panic over ‘what the MSM are saying’ BFwow, as if we did not know this was going to be the case.
We had the PM & Chancellor up here prattling on about this big issue myth (with full support of press and TV again) and it died down after a fortnight because its a no brainer.
All FM needs to do is agree to a Scotland Tonight ‘Lets talk about the Pound’ interview special (with John MacKay of course), to explain the currency options in the white paper, (preferences From A to D) to put this to bed once and for all. No outside white noise interference.
No need for cross questioning by hacks or smart arse spin doctors.
Then Mr Darling could be given the chances for a right to reply, the following night say, to put his case on this area (as a ‘Proud Scot’ protective of his nations interests), and is eventually asked ‘Since the polls are narrowing and you have stated that Scotland should not be allowed to negotiate a currency union to utilize the pound sterling, what is your currency plan ‘B’ position that Scots voters should consider, in the case of a YES result.
Or maybe he should respond on his other tricky area ‘more powers’ ? Just a thought.
STV would jump at it and Im sure the FM could calm the horses quite effectively, now Darling Im not so sure this would not come across more like a man in the dock.
It is difficult to find a NO banner to vandalise in the NE. That must be why they need cameras to protect . Banners 10/1 YES. in NE.
Can we hope the harness he’s wearing has permenantly disabled his ability to produce offspring?
@muttley79 says: 7 August, 2014 at 11:05 pm:
“could not believe that Salmond said that the currency options were on page 4 of the Fiscal Commission Report”
Believe it, Scott and wise up that Salmond is not the fool you imagine him to be. Listen to the panic now striking at the hearts of the cross-party Westminster leadership boorach. Why the hell do you think the main Westminster party leaderships are popping up everywhere on the Scottish media with their obvious lies and propaganda? It’s called blind panic.
Salmond has, as usual, led them by the nose to exactly where he wants them to be. Listen to their bleating and get to the truth. Now they have to face the truth they were attempting to slide past with misdirection. Perhaps a reading of this may explain it far better than I can : –
http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/03/scottish-independence-myths-national.html
It may be very technical but it has easy to understand conclusions. The comments are also interesting. Samond has now bounced the ball smack into the centre of the Westminster, (de facto parliament of England), court. Thing is none of the combined, and united against Scotland, whether party leaders or chancellors, have a racquet with a long enough handle to reach it.
Remind me again – what was Salmond’s job before he became a politician?
Two UKOK frauds at once. Why Guardian you’re spoiling us
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/08/scottish-independence-currency-business-mps#start-of-comments
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/08/douglas-alexander-scottish-convention-independence
“I declare this convention on future lord Dougie Alexander convention on Scottish independence open. Any got anything? No? Fcuk em, ooh wait, AlicSamin must resign, here, here, here, blighter, disloyal, give Salmond a peerage, that shuts them up.”
I declare this convention on Scottish independence closed. Suckas
It would be difficult to find a NO banner in the NE to vandalise.
Banners 10/1 YES in NE
@Doug Daniel
When I first heard about the debate I was furious that Alex Salmond had ” climbed down ” to debate with Darling so I fired off an e mail to SNP headquarters saying so . The reply I got was that Salmond needs to be seen more on TV honestly and calmly debating the YES position. I wasn’t convinced DKs would see it like that but like Morag I do think that it has been a gamechanger. My sons DK friends seem to be coming over to YES after the debate. Sorry! Didn’t mean to attack you. I know you are doing a good job trying to convince Nos to YES. Keep up the good work!
@Robert Peffers
“Believe it, Scott and wise up that Salmond is not the fool you imagine him to be”
Try listening to what I’m actually saying. I have not called anyone a fool so please do not imply I have. I have said that he won the debate OVERALL but was poor on THAT question. That poor response has made the £ an issue.
We cannot be referring people back to policy documents when they are asking us questions face to face. They want answers, and there ARE answers… they are in that policy document… but they WONT be read by these folk as they want answers directly.
I know what Salmond was trying to do, but we need to win the vote before any of those games would pay off so I’ll say it again.
No one is omnipotent…
People can make mistakes…
Not spelling out the alternatives WAS a mistake. An opportunity was lost.
But the solution is that now WE must spell out those alternatives.
Dougie Alexander says the funniest things, or if polls show No Scotland 19th Sept 2014 why are they trying out this fraud
“With the polls showing no significant tightening in the wake of the first TV debate and the odds on a yes to independence vote on 18 September lengthening Alexander is keen to ensure there is a structure to a debate about Scotland’s future if the SNP are defeated.”
and
“He welcomed the Church of Scotland’s proposal to hold a service of reconciliation in St Giles cathedral in Edinburgh on the Sunday after the vote. He said: “In the past, I’ve argued for the establishment of a national convention in the aftermath of a no vote. Its task would be, to chart a new vision for an old nation for the next decade.”
Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today because when future Lord Darling called you all blood and soil nazi’s, he didn’t really mean it. It was all just Alistairs wee joke, he’s a gent really, not a well spoken cunning thug at all, Alistair says AlicSamin is really a North Korean dictator, just joshin, or the even more hilarious and funny Ian Davidson MP stating he was going to bayonet wounded Yes Scotland voters after they lost, just a wee caper and jest a jolly good laugh. Future Lady Johann Lamont says you’re all a virus, come on that’s funny too. Where’s your sense of humour silly seps?
So lettuce prey, vote No oh Lord, vote Labour in Scotland, vote Tory in England, because just like God up in the sky, future PM BoJo’s Conservative party know what’s best for you proud Scottish buts and Labour are their happy little helpers.
Amen
Rolf: “The good thing is that this issue is coming to a head (I hope) now and not the week before the vote.”
Indeed, and hopefully it’s going to be sorted. We have six weeks left, if we spend them all batting back questions about currency, then we’re in trouble, and worse, it’ll be exactly as BT planned.
Having said all that Rolf, clearly you, me and Scott are just unionist fifth columnists, and these people we claim are swithering because of a poor TV performance are actually figments of our imagination, because it’s scientifically impossible for the Yes campaign to get a part of its strategy wrong.
Now where’s that sand for me to stick my head in?
Harking back to the day Darling left his parting note for the incoming ConDems.
A NORMAL incoming govt. Especially the Tories not taking great pleasure in opening up the books and showing us exactly what went on seems odd.
Whatever happened whether incompetence or corruption is being withheld.
Next thing we know Darling is dispatched to lead the No campaign.
Consider this, is he doing it for a love of Scotland or to simply cover his own ar5e?
@Doug
My first article on this site was on ‘groupthink’ and how just bumbling along thinking “yeah, we’ve got it right” and not listening to dissenting voiced means you wind up thinking your doing good when you might not be.
The strategy is beginning to change… I’m hopeful that its a sign they ARE listening to the dissenting voices and changing tack to suit.
OK Doug we take your point – I don’t agree with you either but respect your view. Opinions are like backsides! Now let us just get on with the job in hand! Please!!
Woops – maybe “job in hand” and “backsides” should not have appeared in the same post – oh dear not “woops”. On with the fight!
laukat says: 7 August, 2014 at 11:18 pm
“Said exactly the same thing to Yes pal today! That was the way Alex Salmond of old would have done it (anyone remember the Bluff card when debating with Dewar?)
Remind me again, laukat, What was Salmond’s profession before he became a full-time politician?
Now remind me what were the professions of : –
Cameron; Clegg; Miliband 1 & 2; Balls; Osborne; et al?
Now go and read this : –
http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/03/scottish-independence-myths-national.html
It’s quite technical but also has easy explanations and comments.
Then you might just see the, “Catch 22”, situation Salmond has punted into the NO camp’s court.
The man is absolutely brilliant, (he might not, though, be either pure or dead), but he has done something really brilliant during that TV debate. I’m not surprised that YES supporters have not yet realised it for the whole point was to fool the NO camp leadership. To fool the NOs seems to have also fooled many YESSERS.
I want to warn, though, that the last words of Willie McRae were, “I’ve got them this time”, while being followed by MI5 operatives?
@Robert Peffers
We said the same thing on this site at the start of the year:-
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-angels-share/
dunghurlersunite says: 7 August, 2014 at 11:19 pm:
“Why not turn the question on its head. What is rUK’s plan when they don’t want to share the pound and how will it affect rUK business.”,
Ah! The light begins to dawn, dunghurlersunite.
My old Grand Dad had a wee Lallans Scots saying you might like, “Haud up yer heid, yer gawn fir dung”. (owersettin intil the Inglis fir thay wha dinna spak wir ain leid)
Translation into English.”Do not be ashamed of what you do for an honest living”.
Scott Minto (aka sneekyboy) says
“There’s a world of difference between giving someone an answer and telling them to go look up an answer. ”
And of course as we all know the BT campaign only have to sit on the sidelines and snipe while YES has to do cartwheels explaining every possible outcome ad nauseum,
Its like watching a tennis match where the guy stands on the base line making the other player run himself ragged from one side of the court to the other,
We need to be a bit more assertive and tell folk, do what we did and look it up, do you want us to spoonfeed you the answers?
And challenge BT,
Well, what will be the outcome should we vote no?
and not stand for vague assurances of “more responsiblities”
meanwhile reminding them again and again and again of thier disingenuous empty assurances of “something better” in 1979 until they’re as sick of listening to the chanting as we are of listening to them demanding answers to questions Westminster ensures there can be no answers to,
Its time we stood still and forced THEM around the court.
“Its time we stood still and forced THEM around the court”
We need to cover our own bases first…
But that time is fast approaching.
You can knock your opponent around more easily if he cant deflect to ground you are weaker on.
The thing is we’re NOT weak there… we just need to hammer it home.
I’m not saying it has been a gamechanger. I’m just saying, I remember being disappointed by Alex in a major interview in 1992, and the problem wasn’t that he fluffed the interview, but that I didn’t understand the rules.
I said, wait and see, and that’s what I meant. I’m not putting the champagne on ice, but neither am I writing bitter and destructive blog posts about how “Mr. Salmond let a lot of people down last night”.
“The thing is we’re NOT weak there… we just need to hammer it home.”
My point entirely
just invite them to talk to the hand. 🙂
@ Morag 11.07am
I agree with you’re take on the debate
I tried to watch as an undecided who had not yet engaged.
What I saw was
AS try to explain what this independence thing was all about.
The points were getting lost because of the format of the show.
Pointy shouty man saying the same thing over and over.
The man [AS] with the offer not really being heard.
So it seemed to me that any undecided who was looking for information was left wanting to hear more from the man with the plan
I thought this was very clever as a way of dealing with what we know was a rigged debate.
We already know that when people hear the issues explained they tend to want to vote yes.
Does anyone else suspect that footsoldier is a troll?
So Yes is winning in the South of Scotland?
It was reported just yesterday that an ICM poll had shown Yes was winning in the Highland & Islands, and also the North East of Scotland.
But the polls have the overall Yes vote behind?
Where are the No’s winning?
Hmmm!
” Merely my opinion here, but i reckon AS and Yes will wait until late in the day to clarify the currency issue so that BT have no time to rebuff it then fire the uncomfortable questions about how a Scotland using the pound without a CU will affect ruk ? ”
Yep, my thoughts exactly! They put all their effort into the CU, giving Alex the perfect opportunity to kick the whole BT campaign strategy into the bin, in one interview.
It will be all about timing and I’m sure the FM will have it worked out.
What Scotland gets if it votes NO:-
* David Cameron for UK PM and Boris Johnston or Nigel Farage for deputy PM of the UK.
* another 10 years or more of austerity.
* EU Human Rights legislation repealed by Westminster.
* Scotland torn out of the EU by the combined anti-EU Tory/UKIP majority vote in England.
* massive unemployment in Scotland caused by UK’s EU withdrawal.
* a £4 billion (at least) cut in the annual Barnett formula budget allocated to Scotland by Westminster.
* privatisation of Scotland’s NHS and Water due to aforementioned Barnett cuts.
* Student fees re-introduced costing £9,000 per annum due to Barnett cuts.
* unlimited increases in Council Tax to make up shortfall due to Barnett cuts.
* crime to rise owing to massive reduction in police numbers due to Barnett cuts.
* most of Holyroods powers taken back by Westminster.
* Trident replaced on the Clyde costing £billions whilst more foodbanks are opened.
* more unnecessary foreign wars for Scots service personnel to be killed in.
This is just a small sample of what Westminster has in store if Scotland votes NO.
So Vote YES if you want none of the above to happen.
I did see a couple of No Thanks signs in the highlands.
They were in my dad’s bin.