Arithmetic for thickos
Remember the happy days of 2012 when Unionists complained endlessly that the independence debate was in danger of becoming bogged down by arguments about process rather than politics, readers?
We’re now in the third straight day of the No campaign and the media obsessing about a process (an independent Scotland’s currency arrangements) rather than the principle of whether Scotland should choose its own governments.
Above is a double-page spread from today’s Scottish Sun, which has extremely unusually gone with a front-page splash on politics (rather than its usual diet of celebrity freakshows) for the last three days, and which continues to hammer away – as all three opposition leaders did at FMQs yesterday – on the boneheaded demand for a “Plan B” if the rUK rejects a currency union.
The Sun does so despite devoting most of one of those pages to Alex Salmond telling them EXACTLY what Plan B would be, but evidently they’re a bit slow on the uptake, so let’s see if we can spell it out in words simple enough for Johann Lamont, Ruth Davidson, Willie Rennie and Andrew Nicoll to understand.
The Scottish Government has identified five possible currency options (Annex A, p.11), as listed by the Fiscal Commission Working Group’s analysis:
1. The pound in a currency union
2. The pound outside a currency union (so-called “sterlingisation”)
3. A Scottish currency pegged to Sterling (or “currency board”)
4. A new, fully independent, “floating” Scottish currency
5. The Euro
Now let’s look at what the Sun quotes the First Minister saying no fewer than FOUR times at yesterday’s session when asked what his “Plan B” was:
“It’s our pound and we’re keeping it.”
Seven words, only one of them more than one syllable. It’s not exactly cryptic. “It’s our pound and we’re keeping it” immediately rules out options 3, 4 and 5, because they don’t involve keeping the current pound. Option 1 is “Plan A”, so that’s out too.
That only leaves one other.
1. The pound in a currency union
2. The pound outside a currency union (so-called “sterlingisation”)
3. A Scottish currency pegged to Sterling (or “currency board”)
4. A new, fully independent, “floating” Scottish currency
5. The Euro
Is it within Mr Salmond’s power to guarantee that? Yes it is. Sterling, everyone freely acknowledges, is a fully-tradeable international currency which any country can use without the agreement of the UK. If an independent Scotland wants to use it, no power on Earth can prevent it doing so.
So there we are. That wasn’t too complicated, was it? The “eight-year-old child” cited by Alistair Darling repeatedly on Tuesday night could follow it. If you have five things and you rule out four of them, it’s the other one.
Whether it’s the right choice or not, or whether that choice will ever have to be made (it won’t), are separate issues. If you’re asking what Plan B is, there’s your answer.
If you’re listening out there, Johann, Ruth, Willie and Andrew, and you still need us to dumb it down some more for you, you know where to reach us.
Yup! We’ll use the pound, one way or another. End of.
What puzzled me is why are BT hammering away at this. I know they want Salmond to spell out B so they have something else to attack. Since B is obviously inferior to A, it would be harder to defend. That is not what my WHY question is about. Why do BT think this is a good battleground to choose?
I would have thought other things mattered more to the main target group of Labour voting soft-NOs and DKs.
Are BT making another mistake, or is there more to this?
Oh, I think they’ll need you to dumb it down some more, Stu. 😉
The Sun – and Andrew ‘I’ll be impartial when you pay my wages’ Nicoll – are not to be trusted one iota.
To be fair “our Pound” could also mean option 3. A Scots Pound pegged to Sterling is Sterlingisation by another name.
But the NIESR said – on Scotland 2014, in the Scotsman and elsewhere – that sterlingisation wouldn’t allow a Scottish government to bail out banks like in 2008. That’s bad right? I mean, bailing out banks worked really, really well.
What the NIESR see as a bug, I see as a feature. I don’t want to bail out banks “like in 2008”. Bailing out depositors is fine. And anyway, the EU insists on that, it’s not a Westminster thing. But not shareholders or bondholders. After all, nobody else gets hundreds of billions of pounds thrown at them. Not now, not ever.
The more I look into sterlingisation, the better it seems.
Go and run that past just one more time, just for clarity.
People also need to also get a reality check when they hear all the so-called experts talking about lenders of last resort, central banks, global capital markets, sovereign debt, risk, etc ..
Where were all these experts a few weeks before the financial crisis? Many of them were telling their clients to buy what turned out to be worthless securities and/or overvalued government bonds.
I really want to hear George Osborne and Ed Balls tell the people of rUK that they wish to run the risk of increasing the national debt they carry.
Scotland is trying to be reasonable until the option of being fair is taken away from us.
I really don’t know how these people would get by without your help.
Yeah, that’s pretty clear and in fact has been for quite some time.
I’m guessing they’re just slow learners. 😉
“To be fair “our Pound” could also mean option 3.”
No it couldn’t. “We’re keeping it” rules out creating anything new, because to keep something you have to have it now.
The Sun “Under fire at Holyrood”
Anyone who watched the full session of FM questions on Thursday
http://tinyurl.com/nmr4uez
is in no doubt who was under fire and scrambling for the UKOK bunker.
All this relentlessly hammering away at a point most of us have a settled view on…..While the YES campaign are down the other end scoring the real goals to win this contest.
Echoes of an election campaign in 2011 spring to mind, Labour in Scotland has never recovered from that fiasco.
(Sorry Stu: added this at end of last thread)
Saw the debate; pretty sure I watched a draw not a win for Darling by any stretch, (did he in fact answer any question ?).
It suggested the FM’s sticky area was ‘the pound’ and Darlings was the continually elusive ‘more powers’ magic bullet.
Also feel many are getting in a blind panic over ‘what the MSM are saying’ BFwow, as if we did not know this was going to be the case.
We had the PM & Chancellor up here prattling on about this big issue myth (with full support of press and TV again) and it died down after a fortnight because its a no brainer.
All FM needs to do is agree to a Scotland Tonight ‘Lets talk about the Pound’ interview special (with John MacKay of course), to explain the currency options in the white paper, (preferences From A to D) to put this to bed once and for all. No outside white noise interference.
No need for cross questioning by hacks or smart arse spin doctors.
Then Mr Darling could be given the chances for a right to reply, the following night say, to put his case on this area (as a ‘Proud Scot’ protective of his nations interests), and is eventually asked ‘Since the polls are narrowing and you have stated that Scotland should not be allowed to negotiate a currency union to utilize the pound sterling, what is your currency plan ‘B’ position that Scots voters should consider, in the case of a YES result.
Or maybe he should respond on his other tricky area ‘more powers’ ? Just a thought.
STV would jump at it and Im sure the FM could calm the horses quite effectively, now Darling Im not so sure this would not come across more like a man in the dock.
Folks please also read these responses from ‘Top Rate’ International economic / currency experts who do not exactly advocate a YES vote, but are not prepared to see UK state lies being perpetrated without response.
The big independence lie: Why Scotland could keep the pound
http://www.cityam.com/article/1394565144/big-independence-lie-scotland-could-keep-pound
Adam Smith Institute – Press Release: An independent Scotland should keep the pound without rUK’s permission
http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-release-an-independent-scotland-should-keep-the-pound-without-ruks-permission/
There is only one question to be asked if Scotland is such a basket chase, why are they fighting like mad to keep us.
answer Oil.
UK DEBT £1.45 trillion, Take away 9% from BOE Scotland’s share plus £40 billion a year. The money markets will take on look at the RUK £ and it will drop like a stone. Watch them change tack after a resounding YES.
IScotland GDP per head £26,000
ruk GDP PER head £23,000
Stu – true, but arguably the pound we have in our pockets now (or more accurately the fivers, tenners and twenties) are almost a pegged currency anyway. They’re not technically the same thing as BoE notes and all have to be backed 1:1 with BoE notes held in the vaults there.
Maybe a year ago I watched a BBC interview with an Irishman who was involved in the Irish/British discussions when Ireland wanted to use the Pound. The pegged it.
He said Scotland should peg the Pound with a currency board.
Just as Deutsche Bank said at a later date. To me that seems what the choice will be as it is well tried and tested.
At the end of the day I think we will have the Scottish Pound or the Scottish Dollar ( Sc$ ). After a few years.
This currency issue is a distraction, and Alex’s approach is the best. Of course we’ll use the pound. BT are just stirring it because it helps to spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
The UK establishment doesn’t want to let Scotland become independent because the rUK will lose that source of wealth, and they will also lose that bit of power lording it over Scotland. They will be diminished. They can’t say that though.
Now, get back to the good things about an Independent Scotland.
What is the UK Govts. plan A (or B) about repaying their debt if there is no currency union and Scotland therefore doesn’t need to take any of the debt. Remember they won’t have very much oil revenue from their share of North Sea oil.
Same old Same old.
The Unionists (UKNats)and MSM are desperate. No new ideas & same feeble lines of attack.
Tic Toc Tic Toc
Most worrying part of the two page spread is the questions down the right. Five questions, all answered well and all given the red card without explanation from the sun’s “independent” referee.
Fair enough Stu. “Keep” means we already have it.
This whole currency/CU red herring is just like the Devo whatever question.
Only a Yes/No option was ever desired by SNP govt, but it had to be seen that it was WM refusing us the devo option. (with the resultant devo-whateverers now fully onboard with indy).
It’s the same with CU. I think the desired plan is using the £ without a CU as WM would appear to want us to sign up to CU for 40+yrs, (remember Kirsty Wark screeching that at AS on Newsnicht) whereas we would, if we had to, only sign up for @ 5yrs ’til we set up our own currency.
The markets will soon be whispering in the Treasury’s collective shell-like to agree a CU, and another card is added to our, already strong, negotiating hand. 🙂
O/T – This is the second time I’ve seen this.
Saw a guy in Glasgow city centre pass me on street with a white england top; 3 Lions badge over heart – big blue Yes Badge at other side. Stopped to watch as heads turned. Brilliant !
Not seen anything so quirky or cool in years, well done whoever you were; if you read this get a photo into Stu !, it would look great on this site.
The pound is the currency of Jersey. Jersey is in currency union with the United Kingdom, and the Jersey pound is not a separate currency[citation needed] but is an issue of banknotes and coins by the States of Jersey denominated in pound sterling, in a similar way to the banknotes issued in Scotland and Northern Ireland (see Banknotes of the pound sterling). It can be exchanged at par with other sterling coinage and notes (see also sterling zone).
Both Jersey and Bank of England notes are legal tender in Jersey and circulate together, alongside the Guernsey pound and Scottish banknotes. The Jersey notes are not legal tender in the United Kingdom but are legal currency, so creditors and traders may accept them if they so choose
Which, of course, leaves rUK with 2 options:
1. Accept Plan A.
2. Force us into Plan B: “The pound outside a currency union (so-called “sterlingisation”)” and stick an 8.4% share of UK Govt debt where the sun doesn’t shine.
While I’m perhaps not the biggest fan of the UK Govt’s grasp of common sense, I think even they will opt for Plan A.
IMO you know your country is financially screwed when everyone hangs on the words of the Chief of the Central Bank.
If these people were actually doing their regulatory job in the first instance, the public would never hear of them and/or be that interested in technical arguments.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell @Holebender
“No it couldn’t. “We’re keeping it” rules out creating anything new, because to keep something you have to have it now.”
Do we not already produce Scottish Bank Notes? Appreciate that in reality its produced by non-Scottish banks but to Joe Public it looks like our own.
So if the Yes Campaign come forward with this does it not fall on the NO Campaign to explain how this isn’t really happening to the public. Quite a complex subject for politicians such as Darling etc to explain without telling Scotland what we can and can’t do?
It upsets me to know that Johann was a teacher =( thick as mince
I think the journalists have watched an entirely different debate from the one I watched on Tuesday…. I buy Scottish Mail and their reporters said Darling won the debate !!! Eh???? As for which currency we should use ? Did no one listen to what Salmond were they wearing ear plugs? I despair !!!!!
And, support from an unlikely source! The Adam Smith Institute:
http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-release-an-independent-scotland-should-keep-the-pound-without-ruks-permission/
Squirrels – lets use they wee feckers as currency…
Moving on up.
New ICM poll puts H&Is and NE Scotland combined support for Yes at 48% and No at 43%. With ‘don’t knows’ removed, that’s 52%Yes v 48%No!
Is it February 2014 again already?
“Ye cannae have the pound, it’s our pound”. Tempered by a ‘celebrity*’ love bomb.
(* Sir Iain McGeechan? Philip Mould? Neil Stuke? Malorie Blackman?)
This, in turn, fuels another cybernat trolling frenzy story (predictably) in the Daily Mail. Self-generating news. I’m not providing the link, you can guess what it says and I don’t want to give them any more advertising hits.
***
Meanwhile Scottish yes vote on independence could lead to currency limbo, say MPs
Which MPs? The Business, Innovation and Skills Committee. Who they?
Mr Adrian Bailey MP (Chair) Labour (Co-op)
Mr William Bain MP Labour
Mr Brian Binley MP Conservative
Paul Blomfield MP Labour
Katy Clark MP Labour
Mike Crockart MP Liberal Democrat
Caroline Dinenage MP Conservative
Rebecca Harris MP Conservative
Ann McKechin MP Labour
Mr Robin Walker MP Conservative
Nadhim Zahawi MP Conservative
Lib/Lab/Con so they would say that, wouldn’t they?
I think the No camp may be in serious danger of shooting themselves in the foot (yet again), as this constant bombardment may morph into a similar sort of situation as when Osborne came up for his Sermon on the Pound.
I also suppose that with recent headlines, the thoughts of Daily Record or Sun having a wee shift to Yes may have been a bit premature.
@Murry McCallum
“Scotland is trying to be reasonable until the option of being fair is taken away from us.”
I am so using that on doorsteps. Well, not the actual doorsteps, you understand.
Thanks, succinct and effective.
More simple arithmetic:-
If you add 3 to 43 then divide by 2 you get 23.
Please note, Alistair, Johann and the other 3 party leaders.
Explanation:
These numbers refer to placings in the league table of richest countries,per the link below.
Norway is No 4 ie. it is the 4th richest country per capita in the world.
But Scotland is wealthier, per head of population, than Norway, so that places Scotland above Norway.
Let’s say at No. 3.
The UK, WITH Scotland is No 23.
The UK WITHOUT Scotland, it is reasonable to say, would be at around 43 – the difference being 20 places
(23 minus 3 = 20) are you keeping up, Alistair & Johann ?
The point is, if a country which is the 3rd richest in the world,
is combined with the country which is 43rd in the world,
how can the country at no.3 be BETTER TOGETHER with the country at no. 43,
especially when the country at no.43 acts like a bully to it’s smaller, but richer, neighbour, and robs it blind of it’s mineral wealth.
So Alistair & Johann, answer the question – if you dare.
How is 3(Scotland) BETTER TOGETHER with 43(rUK).
Cat got your tongue ?
It’s simple arithmetic – can’t you answer?
Conclusion:
One is a former Chancellor of the Exchequer,
while the other is a former teacher,
but they can’t see that 3 is NOT BETTER TOGETHER with 43.
Alistair & Johann – Labour dunces.
http://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/worlds-richest-and-poorest-countries
Sorry, but you stated that far too simply. Three out of ten. Re-write it. Throw in a few four syllable words. Refer to a few obscure, highly paid ‘experts’ from think tanks we’ve never heard of, and wrap it up in technical jargon please. Then point your finger during delivery. How the hell do expect to frighten the beJesus the average voter by stating things clearly and simply. They way you’re carrying on we’ll be independent in no time. Sheeeesh.
It sure is a SUN demolition of everything really, right down to the red card you’re out of NATO, so how will “we” defend ourselves? What a bunch.
The first thing for the Scottish nation is to start taxation again so that massive corp tax fraud is at least made harder and giant news corps like Murdoch’s or even the creeps that own far right local rags like the Press and journal do actually start paying their way, because that’s all SUN liggers are attacking Scottish democracy for, keep your hands off my boss’s stash.
Scotland and Scottish Atlantic Ocean territory is the North Atlantic, you grovelling lick spittle of the SUN.
Alex Salmond said that about Scotland and NATO, I added the grovelling SUN lick spittle:D
Bebe -you buy the Scottish Daily Mail? Why? They hate Scotland and the Yes campaign. Surely time to save your money, you could even donate it to your local Yes group.
PS. The rUK WITHOUT Scotland would be like these countries in terms of economic status
42 Greece 23,930.22 2011
43 Portugal 23,185.21 2012
44 Lithuania 22,787.84 2011
45 Estonia 22,731.03 2012
46 Poland 21,005.39 2012
Bit of a come down wouldn’t you say.
Great Britain on par with Lithuania !!!
Right children, let’s go over this one more time please…
O/T
Seems the SLAB ‘Truth team’ (?) have fallen foul of Lawyers for YES – ouch watch this space …
https://twitter.com/Lawyersforyes/status/497674350389366785
The reason they are going for the CU question so vehemently is that it deflects attention away from the fact that BT can’t find a positive reason for us to stay. Make a lot of noise and hopefully no one will notice , seems to be the game plan. Milliband on GMS this morning after Swinney was forced into saying if rUK refused a CU , then Scotland would be debt free , then said it was terrible that a politician would say that… even though he knows fine well what the consequence of Plan B would be… is a ridiculous statement. Next PM of the UK? Don’t make me laugh , i might burst my stitches.
No it couldn’t. “We’re keeping it” rules out creating anything new, because to keep something you have to have it now.
I’m with Laucat. I’m not sure it does rule out a pegged Scots pound. We keep our own Scots pounds we already print, use the Sterling reserves banks have to send to the BoE to back it, as well as our own resources.
We keep the pounds currently in our pockets – ie the pretty Scots pounds, they’re pegged 1-1 as they are now, but effectively we’ve shifted slightly to it being our own currency that we have sovereign control over.
To me, unless I’m missing something, that’s the most obvious and sensible plan B and far preferable to plan A. All the benefits with none of the downsides. But I’m no economic expert so ready to be proved wrong…
Off course, it makes sense to keep the pound in a currency union for an initial period. But we should avoid being locked into a long term currency union as I am sure the Sterling pound will become a basket case before long, due to the unpayable National Debt of £1.3 trillion.There was some talk about a forty year agreement for a currency union, but a five year agreement would be quite enough to see which way the wind was blowing.
Personally I would like to see, in time, a new Scottish pound floating against other currencies and not pegged to any single one, and I am sure it would become as hard as the Swiss Franc.
O/T Congratulations to Celtic for going through to the next round on away goals!!
“Most worrying part of the two page spread is the questions down the right. Five questions, all answered well and all given the red card without explanation from the sun’s “independent” referee.”
Aye, that was unusually poor from Nicoll. What was wrong with the defence answer? And nobody can say what the cross-border pensions solution will be.
Constant personal attacks on AS will backfire. Long may it continue – AS can handle it. Whilst unionist hysteria continues to career up a cul-de-sac the people of Scotland quietly and determinedly go about the proper business of regaining Scotland’s independence.
Yes it is that simple. Unfortunately not everyone has all the information they need to work that out. Just because we’ve been talking about this forever doesn’t mean others have. Why doesn’t yes campaign just spell it out?
I understand all about not wanting now to appear weak or bullied. I also agree that this should not be what we’re talking about but we are. Rather than lose potential converts here whats to lose by spelling it out? Is there some strategy or something obvious I’ve missed?
“I’m with Laucat. I’m not sure it does rule out a pegged Scots pound.”
Of course it does. Banknotes aren’t the currency, they’re just IOUs. We currently use Sterling, we simply have different designs on the notes. If it’s a “Scottish pound” it’s not Sterling, it’s a new thing, ergo we’re not “keeping” it. If the USA suddenly decided to change the name of the dollar to the “US pound” it wouldn’t suddenly become Sterling. The name is irrelevant.
“It’s our pound and we’re keeping it” is impossible to square semantically with Scotland and the rUK having different, but pegged, currencies.
I’m at a loss to understand why you’re trying to muddy something that’s incredibly clear. What the BEST option would be isn’t the subject under discussion here. The question being asked by the No camp and the media is “What is Alex Salmond’s Plan B?”, not what you or I would want, and he’s made that absolutely plain.
Hi
Sorry, you must be using New Maths in your arithmetic.
Here’s how it lines up for the majority of the population (those not in the YES bubble), read and digest:
BT focus on the currency because it is a killer issue.
Plan A is not in Salmond’s gift and he looks ridiculous complaining that “it’s our pound and we’re going to keep it” (given that independence is the thing that will have destroy it) or implying rUK need to enter a currency union because it’s in the White Paper.
Plan B is the Banana Republic option and can be easily attacked on those grounds. It has also been tied very tightly to refusal to assume part of national debt. However, there is no logical connection between national debt and the currency: national debt is part of national liabilities, to be divided along with assets. If Scotland does not assume national debt they will not get a share of assets (or only net share after national debt discounted).
Taking the conventional independence route of creating a new currency (the strength of which would be buoyed by Scotland’s former responsible role as a developer of Sterling) would have been a solid and defensible option but a brave decision: instead by showing how desperate YES is for Plan A, it have shown its negotiating hand: if rUK really is prepared to enter into a currency union, they now know they can extract maximum concessions in return.
Failure to take brave but correct decisions for fear they will not command a majority is the hall mark of the YES campaign.
posted this before and hoping someone with economic background can help: Panama (a bit smaller in population than Scotland), from my non expert eye, seems to do well out of using US dollar. Is this correct?
Post independence
GDP/Debt ratio Scotland 74%
GDP/Debt ratio rUK 112%
Of the £1.4Trillion debt £350Billion is Quantative Easing used to buy government bonds.(OUR BONDS too)
If we take our share of the debt then we are entitled to our share of the assets which includes the UK Bonds (Why would you take the debt of buying the bonds then let the rUK keep them?) – We take the mortgage and they keep the house?
We now have a lower GDP/Debt ratio, our share of the assets and £30 Billion Pounds of Government Bonds which we can cash anytime
The rUK will lose fixed assets such as bonded whisky / Oil & Gas reserves / 20% Europs fishing etc to borrow against.
The will lose 9.9% (because we contribute more)of income to their budget.
They will lose 12% of UK Farming (Scotland)
The panic in London if WE decline a currency union will be significant.
Scotland will be able to borrow at a much lower rate than presently. The £Billion’s in interest we pay at present every year is on ZERO borrowing (interest allocated to Scotland for UK borrowing).
£Billions in interest every year allocated for Money NOT spent in Scotland!
Paying £Billions for a zero loan is not a difficult interest to beat.
The GDP/Debt is a clear indicator that we could borrow at a much lower rate than the rUK enabling a structural spending programme to help recovery.
The focus on the “POUND” is to distract people from the “WEALTH”.
The currency is only an I.O.U. piece of paper. They want you to focus on that piece of paper instead of REAL ASSETS.
If you answer option “B” then they will move straight to “What is option C” with the added line of “more uncertainty”.
Okay Dougal, one more time….now this pound is near….but those pounds, those pounds are Far away.
I just find it a bit sad that in a week where we keep getting shown images of war and lives lost etc, we have people in Scotland giving it “Im not convinced” based on daft wee pumped up technicalities. We really have become so complacent in under 100 years.
Interesting exchange seen on twitter from Lawyers for Yes in relation to the 2014 TruthTeam making the claim that L for Y said the FM couldn’t be trusted on the pound.
L for Y said the ‘TruthTeam’ are lying and they should withdraw the claim. The original claim was in The Herald.
The L for Y put out all there reasonings in a letter why keeping the pound would be the working option.
However the problem is, even, if the claim is withdrawn, it won’t be given the prominence of the original story.
So will probably be down to internet media to spread the info on the true situation.
O/T apols, but I came in to find this in my in-box this morning :
A dystopian vision of the future. A twisted poverty-stricken landscape broken by brutalist concrete structures. A people oppressed by an authoritarian power, where resistance brings brain-splitting agony, but yet the people crave for freedom.
Its the description for Paulo Nutinis new video for ‘Iron Sky’. The future is ours to decide indeed and Im with Paulo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoCSeIY0xdo&feature=youtu.be&eml=2014August7/1739869/6010635
There’s just loads of things for people to consider in this referendum. Can we afford independence? Yes, we’re rich. Will we stay in the EU? Yes, there’s no way to chuck us out and they don’t want to anyway. What currency will we use? We’ll use the pound. Definitely and categorically? Yes.
Who at this point is going to ask, hmmm, but are we going to use the pound within a currency union or are we going for sterlingisation? No one. They’re already on to the next question.
The only thing we need to do, imo, is to attack their Plan B tactic by continuing to emphasise that WE WILL USE THE POUND and no one can stop us. In other words portray their Plan B attack into a pernicious and spiteful attempt to deny what’s ours by right. They don’t want us to vote Yes and if we do they’re going to do their best to screw our economy. That’s what they really think – forget all this lovebomb crap.
FM was absolutely right in the debate and at FMQs. We should do the same when we’re talking to people.
@gordoz.
Milliband repeated that on GMS this morning. Surely the Labour leader wasn’t telling porkies?
the Sun conducted a poll on Scottish independence this morning and Independence won. Not sure what happened to it though it seems to have mysteriously disappeared. Or it might be still there I haven’t looked. There is also another poll in the daily record that has yes on 65% no on 32% and undecided on 3%.
@ Andrew Hamilton, Hi can you read and digest this too, you’ve not said anything we all don’t know. If you think keeping the pound and currency union is
“Failure to take brave but correct decisions for fear they will not command a majority is the hall mark of the YES campaign”.
Fine but It’s kind of a moot Project Fear point there Andrew.
To me the currency issue hinges on ownership of the Bank of England. As it, rather than Westminster, issues Sterling and is a nationalised asset of the UK either Scotland would retain an interest or would have to be bought out.
At a minimum all the humongeous deposits backing Scottish bank notes would be withdrawn. Those deposits are in interest earning accounts which kind of implies they help in propping up Sterling.
Not agreeing to a currency union would lead to a diminishing of the BoE and a subsequent reduction in the value of Sterling.
Setting the wrong valuation on the BoE would either indicate a lack of confidence by Westminster if too low or if too high would reduce any share of debt Scotland might have to service.
Nana Smith @10.27. Do you have a link to that ICM poll?
Why won’t you answer the question Stu – what currency will we use? We need to know! How can we vote YES if we don’t know what currency we will use? You’re just dodging the question and confusing us referring to the fiscal study. Just tell us straight. what currency will we use?
The Scottish people will be astonished that, at this late stage of the game, with only 5 weeks to go, you still can’t tell us what currency we will use.
@galamcennalath says: 8 August, 2014 at 9:47 am:
“What puzzled me is why are BT hammering away at this.
The answer is they were caught out, with their pants around their ankles, and it has tripped them up as they try to run and hide.
They now know that Scotland will use the pound and they have ruled out a currency union. That leaves the de facto parliament of England with the dire prospect of paying off the entire former United Kingdom’s national debt, (they have already accepted it is legally all theirs if they continue to claim to be the United Kingdom). It also leaves them to face the prospect of the loss of 95% of the oil, gas and all other Scottish exports and revenues formerly from Scotland. While, at the same time, remaining committed to a new Trident system and the full costs of the removal of the whole system from Scotland. It means they will also impose upon English, Welsh & Irish business’ the increased costs of exchange rates. They will obviously also lose their credit rates.
Scotland, without a currency union, starts her independent life as a country with no debt but massive resources. They will no doubt then have to come cap-in-hand, “Please Scotland, Pretty Please, can we have a currency union? The answer, of course, will NOT be a resounding NO for it is also in Scotland’s best advantage but it puts a Scottish government firmly in the driver’s seat in all other negotiations.
Did you really think Oor Eck was a numptie?
Another point about no fixed plan B is that those with long memories might remember Black Wednesday and how we crashed out of the ERM. They may also not the reasoning for shelving entry into the Euro. Why would we commit ourselves to a course of action now before we know the lay of the land?
BT shooting themselves in the foot as usual – keep on telling us we can’t have the pound why don’t you. Worked well for Giddy…still shows the old ‘dae as yer telt or else yer gettin a doin’ love bomb is alive and well, which is strangely reassuring.
Now Mr Bean getting in on the act,like a bullys wee sidekick putting the boot in when the victims on the floor
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28703948
The same old nonsense from the NO camp. If we were to go for a new currency , how would rUK want to be paid for our share of the debt? No doubt they would refuse us to pay in this new currency , and would demand payment in sterling..but then we could pay them in Indian Rupees if we liked ,and there is not a thing they could do about it. Despite the evidence to the contrary , there are some clever people in the UK treasury , and they know the truth… it is just another attempt by Project Fear to kow-tow the Scottish people. We should just turn it around , and ask the UK Gov what their Plan A is after a YES vote.
@Mealer
Sorry no it was a tweet this morning from an msp,can’t remember who and yesterday Mike Russell tweeted the same.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell
I should have added to my earlier comment that I agree with you that the best economic plan B is Sterlingisation
My point was just that Option 3 on your list may have political advantages as it has potential to be a difficult option for the No campaign to put down given most of the public are not as well read as users of this forum or others interested in politics and economics.
The reaction to Osbourne’s announcement is testament to this. Joe Public care more about being told what to do than what they are being told. This in my opinion is where the Yes campaign need to get the currency debate back to. FMQs was the start of this, Swinney took it a bit further on GMS.
So YES now ahead in ICM poll section for Highland & Islands and South of Scotland – so only central belt to go then.
Back out canvassing seems the right approach.
@gordoz
Re central belt – have a look here:
http://www.glawest.org/poll-shows-yes-takes-the-lead-in-glasgow/
All of these comments are fascinating but what are the voters thinking – not us!
The ICM poll is not a good enough indication of the current state of play on the streets
Stu, how about spending some of your money on an unbiased robust look at how the currency debate is affecting the vote?
Slightly off topic but only slightly. Canvassing last night a 17 year old said Naw I don’t want the Euro and btw we can’t have the Australians having to change their flag! When I told him the Union Jack still has the old Irish flag in it he looked at me blankly. The level of ignorance is frightening
However Salmond needs to expose the BT team by asking them to explain how they will handle the consequences of the only plan B available. I hope he has negotiated the first question in the next debate
We have ONE plan-A and this one makes most sense.
We have FOUR plan-Bs any of which is viable.
Depending on negotiation and the tantrums of WM we go for that which suits us best.
What cheesed me off this week was not the fact that Alec knows his facts and figures, but the way he presented them. In the debate I think he was off guard and dropped the currency ball which made him look unprepared and unsure.
FMQT was different, he was prepared and raring to go and I’m certain the second debate, in spite of the Beeb bias, will be worth watching.
Will the Beeb open it up for the rest of the world? or will it be a closed shop?
Do you still have to buy the Sun? Doesn’t it get dropped out the bomb bay of a Lancaster anymore?
(Can’t use a Nimrod for obvious reasons).
When the Unionist parties at the beginning of campaign joined up to say NO currency union,YES vote shot up.
why?Scots don’t like being told NO
Now BT sticking with it ,but asking plan B
I think if Darling keeps hammering away,NO,NO’s it’s at best neutral for BT campaign
If Salmond is winning the DKs on other subjects,education,pensions,trident
That’s all that matters
@Angus McLellan says: 8 August, 2014 at 9:53 am:
“Sterlingisation wouldn’t allow a Scottish government to bail out banks like in 2008.”
In the first place the de facto parliament of England Treasury, (Westminster), did not alone bail out the banks. The several countries where those banks operated did the bulk of the bailing-out.
In the second place that means the BofE are not the lender of last resort. The poorer sections of the United Kingdoms population were. Fact – The Rich before, during and in truth after, the fact are getting richer. Only the most poor are paying the bail-out by austerity measures.
After independence the lender of last resort will be the independent government of Scotland. It is myth that the BofE is, was or will be a lender of last resort.
So the claim that, “Sterlingisation wouldn’t allow a Scottish government to bail out banks”, is utter mince.
Well it’s definitely a YES win now.
http://www.holymoly.com/celebrity/news/chuckle-brothers-finally-break-silence-scottish-independence70246
I am very reassured to see so many on this issue who have grasped the essence of it.
Sadly some of our supporters are too naive and have (temporarily, I hope) lost their nerve.
Alex Salmond is completely right about the currency issue. Even if you prefer a Scottish currency in the longer term at this moment it is in everybody’s interest to have a currency union. Better Together know we will have a currency union. They Know rUK will desperately need a currency union. They also know that Scotland will hold all the aces in any negotiation about it.
They also know that any country can the pound, but they don’t appear to understand that all informed Scots also know this.
And all the newspapers also know this but anybody that thought that they would factor this information into their demented coverage is obviously deeply naive. The over the top press stuff in my judgement is counter-productive and the bounce back on this will be that much stronger.
I had a long conversation with a very reliable source last night and that person’s opinion was that the Mr Nice Guy under attack in the debate was planned and one of the the objects of the exercise – to lead Better Together into a campaign on the currency issue – was achieved.
Better Together are now campaigning furiously on an issue that is very low on most people’s priorities and which is based on a lie.
Job done.
The Alex Salmond we recognise was back in place at FMQT yesterday. Don’t expect the media to report this but you can expect the “we can use the pound whether you like it or not -are you trying to bully us?” to become a theme we will use
Just keep your nerve – and remember the enemy wants us to argue with each other.
Darling hammered the currency topic during the debate but put nothing on the table himself except a few baubles and beads about taxation mutter, mutter = ‘more powers’, mutter, mutter.
Two things – they’re hoping to re-instal a cringe factor via a subject most people have no appetite for, but which sounds very complex and can only be mastered by those nerdy public school boys types. But even I’m beginning to understand it and I’m one of those arty-farty types who hates applied economic micro equations.
Secondly- they seem to be putting a lot of eggs into this one basket and it feels like they’re trying to deflect attention away from more pressing and valid topics, where they are losing the arguments.
Daily Record (read in coffee shop) has interesting comments by Billy Bragg hidden away on page 37: “Your independence might wake us from our old imperial dreams”.
Also, the story of the rigging of the ‘Big Debate’ audience, if proven, must reach a wider public than those who remain Alert to such things.
That sentence should read
“They also know that any country can use the pound, but they don’t appear to understand that all informed Scots also know this.”
in my previous post
This is the type of question we got in our 11+ exam in the 1950’s. So on this showing this lot will be going to a junior secondary shool or private fee paying schools.
When all these politicians and journalists apparently either don’t have the ability to pass a test for 11 year olds then what can we say.
They certainly ain’t the brightest button in the box.
All Salmond has to do is ask Darling or whoever
‘Why can’t we use the Pound Alistair?’
thedogphilosopher
Agreed about the debate debacle.I want one of the sympathetic journos in the MSM to run with this story,tied in with the actual,skewed,poll.
Do people actually realise we dont become independent on Sept 19th when final result announced as YES?
Surely any sensible person would reason “oh we have 18 months to get the negotiating sorted, thats plenty” and relax.
The scaremongering tactics about central banks and financial services is just hot air and we know where most hot air comes from among humans.
chalks
Because he’ll trot a lot of mince and claim it is fact.
Let’s remember , this is the HMG that insist it has made NO PLANS WHATSOEVER for a YES vote… so at least the SG has plans ,which should be pointed out at every opportunity. Which seems the most logical approach for a government?
I lost count of the number of Yes window posters I saw in Burntisland yesterday. Someone has been busy.
by Jim McLean
It was time for FM’s questions
Johann Lamont stood up,
Her look was stern, her look was glum
Her face like a weel skelpit bum.
She looked at her notes with her specs to see
And asked Alec Salmond “What’ll your Plan B be?”
He slowly rose from his comfy chair
And fixed Ms Lamont with a baleful stare.
“I’ve told you before, just take a look,
The answers in the flaming book!”
Across the chamber, with her boyish smile,
Ruth Davidson spoke, head schoolgirl style.
She shouted out her Tory views
Selected from this morning’s news.
“Both Johann Lamont and I agree
Tell us what’ll your Plan B be?”
Alec sighed and rolled his eyes,
His patience gone, he looked at the sky.
“I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again
The answers on page a hundred and ten!”
Wee Willie Rennie then got to his feet
His voice between a squeak and a bleat.
“I’ve just arrived, straight from my bed,
Could someone tell me what’s been said?
But I’ve a question, dear to me,
Tell me what’ll your Plan B be?”
But then in a flash and a puff of smoke,
In a bowler hat and big, black cloak,
A figure appeared on the chamber floor,
To Tory cheers and a Hamden roar.
“It’s me, yes it’s me”, roared the figure
For Boris it certainly was!
“I’ve come up from London to rescue
The Better Together cause.
He ripped the cloak from his shoulders
And emblazoned for all to see
In red, white and blue on his bosom
In capital letters …. “PLAN B”
My last word on this is….
What are they going to offer us!
to join them in a CU, sterling is going to go down the plughole with their debt otherwise.
A no brainer, someone explain that to Osborne/ Balls.
donald anderson says:
8 August, 2014 at 11:45 am
by Jim McLean
Excellent, Jim McLean!
“In the debate I think he was off guard”
I think he was a bit taken aback by the pre-arranged audience booing set up by STV.
Watching all the drivel coming from the unionist politicians and media, I have an overwhelming urge to jam a metaphorical boot onto their metaphorical throats at the not-metaphorical ballot box. If a Yes vote means that we don’t have to listen to them blindly hammering away at talking points on currency any more then I’m all for it.
Beyond a joke now,3 days of this barrage on one issue of the independence. Is this the best defence Better Together and their MSM flunkies have? Anyone who believes the MSM are unbiased, really needs to make an appointment with Specsavers.
@ donald anderson 11:45 am Great poem. Thanks for that, sets the right tone!
For those who feel that AS doesn’t know much about politics and negotiating etc here’s a clip from a Question Time session in 1992 where a youthful Alex holds his own against John Smith, Alan Beith and Michael Heseltine. Fascinating to hear all the old chestnuts being aired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHVokKt82I
Whether a formal or informal currency union is established, Scotland can set up a branch of government, e.g. a Scottish Monetary Authority, that is tasked with regulatory and monetary oversight as well as advising the Scottish Government on possible emergency assistance to struggling institutions.
Something like this should exist even if Scotland has no representation on the BoE Monetary Policy Committee. It has a role to play even if Scotland ends up adopting Sterlingisation.
Like all independent countries our use of currency and options available needs to be regularly reviewed. Look at how the UK has changed the way the Pound has operated over the last 60 years.
See here the example of Hong Kong http://www.hkma.gov.hk/eng/about-the-hkma/hkma/about-hkma.shtml
See here also Milton Friedman’s (“respected economic expert”) incorrect prediction on the demise of the Hong Kong Dollar following handover to China and the effective fixing of the HKD to the US Dollar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Monetary_Authority#Currency_board_system
“In 1995, Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman mistakenly predicted the Hong Kong dollar’s demise within two years of the 1997 handover. He also predicted the absorption of the territory’s financial reserves of US$43 billion (HK$335.4 billion) by Beijing, which would not be able to bear the subrogation of Hong Kong’s monetary policy to the United States.”
The thing is Scotland has a healthy external trade balance and runs an open market. In the event of us being denied a formal currency union, Scotland will have a low level of debt. We *can* pay our way in the World.
@Dave McEwan Hill: I had a long conversation with a very reliable source last night and that person’s opinion was that the Mr Nice Guy under attack in the debate was planned and one of the the objects of the exercise – to lead Better Together into a campaign on the currency issue – was achieved.
Would explain the FM’s uncharacteristic performance. Perhaps the ‘will of the people of Scotland’ theme at FMQs is the start of an attack on those who would deny us our pound. About time I’d say, while letting them fall into an elephant trap of their own making.
@Dave Lewis says: 8 August, 2014 at 10:02 am
“There is only one question to be asked if Scotland is such a basket chase, why are they fighting like mad to keep us. answer Oil.
Wrong! A few weeks ago the Rev Stu published here an article with charts showing Scotland’s net contributions in the yers of the 1800s. Every year showed that Scotland’s contributions far exceeded what Scotland got back from Westminster. We were subsidising England way back then – Oil & Gas are just bonus payments. Even without a drop of oil Scotland subsidises England.
There is absolutely NO logical case to discredit independence, none.
The better together mob decided that threatening the peasants pocket money was their only hope of winning the referendum. So they and their propaganda units EBC, MSM, STV decided to make up this crap (lies) and they would all sing off the same script, lies and all.
If some bunch of gangsters were doing what this lot are doing they would be in court charged with conspiracy to defraud the people of their wealth.
But since this mob are backed by the great and good their only punishment will be a share of the proceeds of crime and a seat in the HOL.
The system is putrid and operated by scum. Who wants anything to do with these morons. Independence that’s the only answer.
@Andrew Hamilton
Sorry, you must be using New Maths in your arithmetic.
Here’s how it lines up for the majority of the population (those not in the YES bubble), read and digest:
BT focus on the currency because it is a killer issue.
Plan A is not in Salmond’s gift and he looks ridiculous complaining that “it’s our pound and we’re going to keep it” (given that independence is the thing that will have destroy it) or implying rUK need to enter a currency union because it’s in the White Paper.
Plan B is the Banana Republic option and can be easily attacked on those grounds. It has also been tied very tightly to refusal to assume part of national debt. However, there is no logical connection between national debt and the currency: national debt is part of national liabilities, to be divided along with assets. If Scotland does not assume national debt they will not get a share of assets (or only net share after national debt discounted).
Taking the conventional independence route of creating a new currency (the strength of which would be buoyed by Scotland’s former responsible role as a developer of Sterling) would have been a solid and defensible option but a brave decision: instead by showing how desperate YES is for Plan A, it have shown its negotiating hand: if rUK really is prepared to enter into a currency union, they now know they can extract maximum concessions in return.
Failure to take brave but correct decisions for fear they will not command a majority is the hall mark of the YES campaign.
Me thinks Andrew is a Unionist, who does not want Scotland to govern itself!
It was time for FM’s questions
Johann Lamont stood up,
Her look was stern, her look was glum
Her face like a weel skelpit bum.
She looked at her notes with her specs to see
And asked Alec Salmond “What’ll your Plan B be?”
He slowly rose from his comfy chair
And fixed Ms Lamont with a baleful stare.
“I’ve told you before, just take a look,
The answers in the flaming book!”
Across the chamber, with her boyish smile,
Ruth Davidson spoke, head schoolgirl style.
She shouted out her Tory views
Selected from this morning’s news.
“Both Johann Lamont and I agree
Tell us what’ll your Plan B be?”
Alec sighed and rolled his eyes,
His patience gone, he looked at the sky.
“I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again
The answers on page a hundred and ten!”
Wee Willie Rennie then got to his feet
His voice between a squeak and a bleat.
“I’ve just arrived, straight from my bed,
Could someone tell me what’s been said?
But I’ve a question, dear to me,
Tell me what’ll your Plan B be?”
But then in a flash and a puff of smoke,
In a bowler hat and big, black cloak,
A figure appeared on the chamber floor,
To Tory cheers and a Hamden roar.
“It’s me, yes it’s me”, roared the figure
For Boris it certainly was!
“I’ve come up from London to rescue
The Better Together cause.
He ripped the cloak from his shoulders
And emblazoned for all to see
In red, white and blue on his bosom
In capital letters …. “PLAN B”
There’s a reason Eck was so reluctant to admit that this was Plan B: because it’s a s**t plan.
Speaking of arithmetic, one businessman has calculated that bookies are offering what is actually a really good rate of return on a virtually certain No vote, so he put £600,000 on it …
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/07/record-bet-scottish-independence
@ CharlieMurphy
The going rate of the record bet seems to have increased from £400,000! We’ve noticed Charlie that when YES surges and the odds shorten another “massive bet” is placed. Why don’t you put a few thousand on NO and make a killing?
CharlieMurphy
What a way to waste £600,000,just to keep the bookies odds favourable to no.
Rev, you wrote: Let’s see if we can spell it out in words simple enough for Johann Lamont, Ruth Davidson, Willie Rennie and Andrew Nicoll to understand.
Sorry Rev, but such a feat is beyond even you.
To raise spirits, here is a joke that kind of covers the situation.
How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
None–the light bulb will change when it’s ready.
Alex Salmond was totally on the ball when he focused on getting Angry Darling to agree that “an independent Scotland would be a thriving economy”.
THIS is what it REALLY boils down to.
Thinking that he was getting Darling to agree with a Tory PM is irrelevant. It misses the non political bigger picture.
bjsalba
I’m going to try that line with my underwear.
@Andrew Hamilton
Plan A is not in Salmond’s gift and he looks ridiculous complaining that “it’s our pound and we’re going to keep it” (given that independence is the thing that will have destroy it) or implying rUK need to enter a currency union because it’s in the White Paper.
How much is the UK in debt by? Is it over a trillion pounds? Why then would the UK not need to enter into a currency union in the event of a Yes vote, given the state of its finances? Philip Hammond confirmed to the Guardian that there would be a currency union. I know Unionists are trying to pretend it did not happen but it did.
If Scotland does not assume national debt they will not get a share of assets (or only net share after national debt discounted).
You must have missed Osbourne accepting the UK debt on behalf of the British state. Scotland would not have any debt on gaining independence.
The 2016 general election in an independent Scotland will be the time when the people of Scotland decide what kind of government and what kind of currency the country should have.
First things first: Vote Yes.
Darling himself stated what ‘Plan B’ was on Tuesday night, citing Ecuador Panama, I think it was, as examples of countries using another country’s currency. He then went on to ask repeatedly what Plan B was, and was joined in by large sections of the studio audience. It may have been the best trick Darling’s ever pulled, answering a question then spending two hours convincing everyone there is no answer.
By ‘everyone’, I mean MSM hacks, of course.
@Dave Lewis says: 8 August, 2014 at 10:17 am:
“Both Jersey and Bank of England notes are legal tender in Jersey and circulate together.”
Best check out what, “Legal Tender”, actually means, Dave Lewis. It really has nothing to do with it.
I’ve just read the editorial down the left hand side of the Sun page. Hilarous stuff. It seems the Sun is being edited by an economist now that luminaries like Rebecca Brooks and Andy Coulson are otherwise engaged. . Here’s a witty snippet on why we can’t have a currency union and AS has a cheek to expect it.
“But after a divorce, you don’t get to use your ex’s credit rating”
Wow. I never thought of that. I can just hear it on the doorsteps as we speak!
Is this good news or bad?
http://www.scotlandnow.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/video-english-comedian-russell-brand-4023925
Nice to see the 👿 back been quiet the last couple of days without them, must have been busy doing other things at GCHQ
It would be nice, if the UK reps continue to deny the sense in a currency union when post-referendum talks begin, if our negotiating team just happened to change their collective minds and said ” OK…just forget about a currency union after all…it’s no longer of any interest to us. We’ll use Sterling anyway, accept no debt, and we shall just start from scratch.”
Of course, there will be problems, but in that scenario, Scotland is not obliged to accept responsibility for any debt, and fUK can keep the moveable assets outside Scotland.
That would be mighty fine.
@goldenayr,
I’ve been warming to Russell Brand recently with some of the noises he’s been making in politics, and there could certainly be far worse celebrities supporting Yes. However, given that I mock and do not acknowledge celeb ‘endorsements’ to stay in the UK, it would be a bit hypocritical of me to choose which stars are reasonable and which are idiots.
David Wardrope
Has to be one of the nicest putdowns of a celeb I’ve read.
Off topic: I converted a couple of girlfriends (one a soft no and one a d/k) this morning using the following argument: We were talking about the 200 signature love bomb letter and I asked them if they all love us so much and are desperate to keep us why don’t they offer us devo-max?
After all, with devo-max there would be no currency issues, no border and passport worries, no problems about us all becoming foreign. They would even get to keep trident and their seat at the top table ffs. But best of all, Scotland would remain part of their beloved Great Britain. Surely Rory the Tory would be delighted?
So why won’t they offer it to us? Simply because it would mean handing over Scotland’s oil, whisky and VAT revenues, that’s why.
You could see the penny drop, it was like a lightbulb going on. Suddenly they realised that the no campaign is about London keeping hold of Scotland’s resources. If it wasn’t, if it was about any of the other issues they would offer us devo-max in order to guarantee keeping us.
Not only are they now voting yes, they were actually fairly angry once the truth dawned on them. I’m using this argument in all my conversations now, it puts all the hype about the £ and currency union into a different context and shows that the no campaign could resolve any so called problems they have with it themselves quite easily. But, of course, they won’t.
1pm Referendum TV Live is presented by Iain MacWhirter and Michelle Thomson, Friday’s show includes Tommy Sheppard, Zara Kitson, Miriam Brett and Alex Massie.
http://www.referendumtv.net/referendum-tv-live-0808/
@ Dave McEwan Hill
Agreed – what people will remember from the debate is a pointy and shouty AD hectoring on about the pound. Now that BT and their poodles have followed (through) they cannot turn back without admitting they are wrong. Checkmate.
@Mary Bruce
Have used the same points and converted quite a few folks to Yes.
O/T but FAO of all Thistle fans
http://www.yesscotland.net/news/john-lambie-adds-team-yes-managerial-experience
Carling don’t do Yes campaign endorsements but if they did….
Can someone do me a big favour, please. I’ve just had someone at work express disblief that Labour will privatise the NHS or anything in public ownership. Any links that you can point me to?
Cheers
There are many aspects of being independent that give rise to uncertainty – not just the currency issue. But does that matter? Why are we pre-occupied with being able to say precisely what will happen? All we need to know is that we have the basics – resources and people – and the confidence to work out the best way to proceed. That’s what every other country does – why should we be any different?
In practical terms, on the doorsteps, I think we should be open and say “We expect the rUK government to agree to a CU. But if they don’t we have several other options any and all of which are viable. There are pros and cons to each of them and in the unlikely event of the rUK government refusing the CU, we will decide which is best in the circumstances at the time”.
Why do we get so hung up on the need for certainty? We don’t have it in any other aspect of our lives. It’s like driving a car at night – you can only see a couple of hundred yards ahead. But you can drive from Lands End to John o’Groats like that.
Onward through the fog I say.
galamcennalath says:
“What puzzled me is why are BT hammering away at this.”
Because they judge your average punter based on their own beliefs, thoughts and actions. They’re pissing on their own chips.
They still need challenging as Stu rightly does here every day but they’re simply out of touch with us now.
We’re winning this 🙂
@giving goose
https://www.facebook.com/yesnhsscotland
Is a great site 😀
@ muttley79
Because that debt is denominated in the currency which the UK government issues. They have control.
If they agree to a currency union they would no longer issue the currency; they would lose control, including control of the ability to service the debt.
I’d like to point to this little gem of information in regards to the currency debate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknotes_of_the_pound_sterling#The_question_of_legal_tender
With particular reference to this part:
“In Scotland and Northern Ireland, no banknotes, not even ones issued in those countries, are legal tender.[11] They have a similar legal standing to cheques or debit cards, in that their acceptability as a means of payment is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved, although Scots law requires any reasonable offer for settlement of a debt to be accepted.”
Case closed.
@Cath says: 8 August, 2014 at 10:44 am:
“I’m no economic expert so ready to be proved wrong.”
You have indeed missed something, Cath. The backing for Scottish printed banknotes is secured by the Scottish notes being secured by the exact value of each note being deposited, “in BofE banknotes”, in the BofE vaults.
However, first of all Scotland owns a negotiable share of the BofE which is NOT an English owned asset as the UK nationalised it in 1946.
Second of all there is no legal basis for the UK claim that the share out be a per capita one as the population ratios have changed since 1706/7 and the Treaty of Union is a treaty between two equally sovereign Kingdoms.
Thirdly – The BofE were NOT the lenders of last resort that bailed out the failed banks. The Treasury did and the de facto parliament of England at Westminster then cut the tax rate of the rich and increased indirect taxation that affects more the poor, The WM also started cutting the incomes of the most poor while the rich have continued to become even richer.
That is the poorest in the UK are paying for the bank bail outs along with the other countries where the bailed out banks did business. The truth is that the lenders of last resort were the poor of the UK via the government and the BofE had lent nothing. The independent Scottish lender of last resort would be the independent government of Scotland.
Slightly O/T
Don’t know about opinion polls but I’ve just got back from a tour of Dumfries & Galloway and Ayrshire coast. Yes window posters outnumbered No by about 7:3 and the only car stickers on display were for YES. Unscientific I know, but it fair cheered me up.
The brit nat media are obssessed with what they see as any weakness in the independence dabate and will try to exploit it mercilessly, even though they are always wrong in their attacks!As mentioned brilliantly above, the answer given by the first minister couldnt be clearer. However, the point of the sustained and ridiculous attacks are a last ditch effort to scare the undecided voters into voting no.
The reason Alex doesnt claim a plan B is that would be seen as weakness “Alex finally bows to pressure” etc… you can imagine the headlines. This could all back fire on the No campaign the way it did with osbnorne when he made the threats several months ago. Now that milliband is trying the same tactic, it will be interesdting to see if he suffers the same consiquences. I hope he does.It has also spelled out the obsession the media has with being anti YES!
Craig Murray’s latest post on currency issue
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/08/astonishing-coincidence/
Perhaps they’d be better with numbers 1-5 instead of A-E?
Oh- and on the 8 year old child bit anyone remember what Mr. Darling thought the capital of Norway was?
What is the general plan for the future? Will we keep a CU forever or will we eventually create or own currency? What is the likely time scale? These are questions i have been asked by friends and family members and i have to confess i’m not altogether sure. I’m looking for tuppence worths here folks 🙂
http://www.referendumtv.net/referendum-tv-live-0808/
Todays show starts around about now 🙂
Thought I would remind people.
Soda, usually I just tell folk that no currency is fixed for enternity, that future Scottish governments will be able to take decisions that benefit Scotland and that even the pound has been in a whole range of currency scenarios in the past including being in the ERM and was even pegged to the Deutsch mark at one point.
And, of course, even Alistair Darling wanted Sterling to joint the euro once…
Somebody told No that this was an Achilles heel for YES, well it isn’t, it never has been. Time they looked at what they are saying. Petulantly this is our currency and you cannot have it just like the big kids they are. I do not see a long term Currency Union in our futures, just long enough to build up our Credit ratings and we will be off. Now would somebody from NO explain why we were forced into a Currency Union by the ENGLISH Parliament after 1707. Where was our Mint, written into the Union. Seems nobody bothered about us Scots then.
O/T but refers to a previous story
Police probe threats sent to Jim Sillars:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/police-probe-threats-sent-to-jim-sillars-1-3503392?fid=15685&isc=1&did=7cda713d9426e4ad3730aa3208a09056b7c7cffb&ctp=article
Hurrah Charlies back
Can you give me 1 or 2 reasons why the union is beneficial to me ? Come on Charlie i waited hours the other day and you never gave me a single reason.
Well your back … one reason why i should vote for the union?
pretty please with a cherry on top.
The UK entered into a recession in 2007/2008 because the economy shrank by less than 2%. i.e. the total value of everything that was provided or created in the UK in 2008 was worth 98% of what it was worth the year before.
That tiny reduction in the value of our collective output caused chaos & led to series of austerity measures from which we will all suffer for many years still to come.
Meanwhile, Scotland creates about 9% of all the value created in the United Kingdom (goods, services, exports ect).
When Westminster says that they will refuse a currency union, they are saying that they will deliberately remove 9% of the value in Sterling that is currently provided by Scotland.
Remember, it took less than a 2% reduction in economic value to cause a near catastrophic collapse in the UK economy.
Imagine then what would happen if the UK suddenly removes 9% of Scotland contribution in Sterling by insisting that Scotland uses something else.
It’s bullshit of course; Westminster is bare faced lying to you because it doesn’t want Scotland to choose a different & more democratic future for itself & doesn’t want to lose 9% of its population & about 1/3rd of its political landmass.
So Westminster will say & do anything to maintain the status quo. But this refusal is complete crap because the rUK cannot possibly survive the sudden removal of 9% of its own currency without descending into an economic abyss from which it may never climb back out.
Watch this, if you haven’t already. It’s the Three Towns Public Meeting from 15th July 2014.
Dr Phillipa Whitford, Ruth Wishart and Blair Jenkins.
We are winning, these are the issues…these are our issues, this is why we are voting Yes. Phillapa is an outstanding voice on the issues of the NHS. Ruth is passionate on Trident, and Blair by a show of hands shows the reality of what is taking place in our country.
Stop feeding the trolls, which includes the BTMSM narrative. We are winning.
Capella. It was Jim McLean wot wrote it. Jim used to do the Scottish Republican albums.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BokTF4bzKxA#t=2200
Money-making Tip #666 ….
Get yer hands on one of these big Bitters Pounds with Alex Salmond’s head on it.
It will be worth money as a souvenir after the YES vote in September.
I would prefer an independent currency or using a stable currency thant the pound or Euro. My favourite is the Swiss Franc, but I am ready to be persuaded another currency is better.
In an uncharacteristic moment of optimism, I’m thinking a bit of uncertainty right now is a good thing, it’s close enough for people to think , I better actually find out something about this but far enough away to give them time to do so.
Keep up the same line of attack which “seems” to be the weak point and you ignore all the other bits that you have no answer for which meantime people have been looking at. You also switch those who don’t really care off altogether.
Way better than having currency be seen as a new thing to think about mid sept.
@Andrew Hamilton says: 8 August, 2014 at 10:57 am:
“Sorry, you must be using New Maths in your arithmetic.
Here’s how it lines up for the majority of the population (those not in the YES bubble), read and digest:”
Total gobbledegook, Andrew Hamilton.
The plan is quite plain We will use our own Scottish currency – that currency is The Pound Sterling.
There are no plans b-z. However, the only plan has options. Two of which are the pound in a currency union and the pound not in a currency union. The choice of which Scotland adopts is not in an independent Scotland’s power to choose.
Only the de facto parliament of England can make that choice and if they don’t choose a CU they will destroy the de facto parliament of England at Westminster.
Consider – loss of 95% of present and future North Seas and Atlantic oil & Gas revenues. Loss of all other Scottish revenues, including those at present exported from English ports, the Scottish share of the UK national debt and the costs of not only renewing Trident but of removing it to and the cost of building a new Trident base. The increased cost of the UK credit rate.
http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-release-an-independent-scotland-should-keep-the-pound-without-ruks-permission/
Adam Smith Institute view… Very useful and interesting.
O/T
A demolition job on OBR figures by Professor Donald Mackay, leading expert on North Sea Oil.
http://www.wealthynation.org/a-letter-to-the-first-minister/
I haven’t seen this point come up in reading about this – there’s another reason for Salmond not choosing a plan B: as soon as he does, the hostile media will jump on it, the story becomes “all three major WM parties say no currency union, so Salmond has no choice but to go for HIS plan B, which is XXX”. Then he’s stuck defending an option he doesn’t support, inevitably turns more D/Ks to Nos and impossible to change the subject back to currency union.
While it was painful to watch and some short term damage was done, it was definitely the right move in the long run.
@giving goose
If you type ‘privatised by Labour’ into Google,you get 649’000 results
One of the top links is :
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/29/short-history-of-privatisation
3 little letters, PFI…something that isnt allowed in Scotland thanks to the current Scottish Governments Futures Funding but strangely hasnt arisen in this campaign.
Robert Peffers 1.15
Excellent post Robert,telling it exactly with no ambiguity whatsoever.
Stopped buying the SUN newspaper as of today, try to lie to us that they are neutral, all five points answered pretty conclusively but given red cards, they are now and have always been part of project fear, tried to tell us a couple on months ago they were the defenders of fair play, 200 celebs signed a letter to say were better together, how many of them have had to visit a food bank or make the choice between eating and heating?
the sooner we get away from this lot the better as far as I’m concerned
The prospect of sterlingisation has been built into the Banking Act 2009.
As far as I recall Alistair Darling was Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time.
Now I wonder why he would want that put in.. Does he know something we don’t?
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/scottish_northernireland.aspx
The unionist press keep pushing the currency question, because that is the only question that they’ve 100% said that , a currency union won’t happen. They’re trying to spread fear and doubt over the pound, when they know fine well a currency union is beneficial to both Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Even if they decide to say no which would cost the UK’s businesses an absolute fortune ergo it will not happen, we will still use the pound. Whats more disturbing than the pound fiasco is the sheer and outright lies the Westminster and BT are prepared to tell Scots, in order to keep us under their control.
O/T.
Top Labour man switches to YES, councillor Stephen Dornan says, “Voting YES is the only way to protect the NHS in Scotland. Another Labour man sees the light, well done.
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/labour-mans-switch-175311n.24975084
Salmond did not give a Plan B because everyone knows that the No campaign/MSM would then trash Plan B, just as they would a Plan C to Plan Z. They will not agree with any plan put forward by the SG and Salmond because they are incredibly hostile to independence. That is not to say Salmond did not make mistakes in the debate this week, or the general handling of the issue has been outstanding. The currency issue is difficult because it is complex.
O/T give the Courier some credit. They printed this:
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/fife/margo-macdonald-and-jim-sillars-the-target-of-vile-attack-in-fife-1.513018
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/07/record-bet-scottish-independence
Worth reading where that bet came from. It’s actually another £200,000 by the same man (?) who’d already bet a total of £400,000. Now that’s certainly enough to move the odds. It might even be enough to persuade some of the undecided to vote No. On the other hand it might also be someone playing the odds and hedging things so that no matter which way the vote goes he still wins.
Rev :
Will you be appearing on Referendum TV – seems a really good platfrom ? And nice to see Ian MacWhiter making the right choice in the end.
Jim Watson @ 1025am
Squirrels – lets use they wee feckers as currency…
Finland actually used squirrels – or rather, squirrel furs – as currency in the middle ages. 😀 They were used for trade (barter) but also for paying taxes! The Finnish word for money “raha” originally even meant “dried squirrel pelt”.
Of course I’m not suggesting indy Scotland should go and hunt its red squirrels to use as money. (This disclaimer just in case the UKOKkers/MSM think of splashing headlines “Separatists will KILL cute rare animals to sort out Eck’s currency mess”.)
These dafties are all paid from the public purse. In pounds, sterling.
Double apology coming up here folks. 😛
First apology is because I haven’t read the posts yet but I was made aware of this on line poll by poll daddy and thought the odd person, no not THAT sort odd you fool 😀 , might like to partake in it.
Second apology is if this link has already been posted.
http://tinyurl.com/m493bwp
I don’t know about other papers but The Guardian has gone currency mental (although there a reprise of the cost of stamp story too). It seems that Project Fear is alive and well and just as foolish as before.
Of course the main failure here on propaganda grounds is that if this were an attempt to manipulate gambling odds in order to reinforce the idea that Tuesdays debate was a disaster for the Yes campaign then it might have been better organised as multiple small bets.
Why not take pounds, euros and a new scottish currency and just trade with any of it? Would make it easier for tourists and more fun for everyone else. Can I have my price in euros today please? And my change in dollars.
Mutley is bang on.
It wouldn’t have mattered which currency option the FM had declared. It would have received exactly the same level of derision from Westminster anyway. So sticking to the option that’s most likely is just common sense.
Westminster is basically saying that the Pound Sterling is an asset that it exclusively owns. But the downside is that if you own an asset exclusively then you also own all debts secured against that asset.
For example, if I rent a house & the owner of the title has a mortgage on it, I may well be helping to pay it down indirectly by paying rent, but I still don’t own the debt.
So if Westminster wants to really finance the entire UK debt without any contribution from Scotland, I’d be delighted. Scotland would start off as a new, independent country with not a single pound worth of debt.
I don’t care if its the Pound Bawbees or Zonks, and as for the so called celebs . . Bye to the jing bang lot of them their BBC gravy train will soon hit the buffers
@ HandandShrimp
Guardian graphs point out the rise in prices since privatisation started:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/mar/27/60p-price-stamp-royal-mail
Kenny says: at 10:03 am
Stu – true, but arguably the pound we have in our pockets now (or more accurately the fivers, tenners and twenties) are almost a pegged currency anyway. They’re not technically the same thing as BoE notes and all have to be backed 1:1 with BoE notes held in the vaults there.
You’re right Kenny and the BoE currently holds over £4 Billion of our money in their vaults as security against the Scottish notes.
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/s_ni_roleofbackingassets.aspx
@Midgehunter says: 8 August, 2014 at 11:26 am:
“What cheesed me off this week was not the fact that Alec knows his facts and figures, but the way he presented them. In the debate I think he was off guard and dropped the currency ball which made him look unprepared and unsure.”
Och! Midgehunter, the old fox was doing as he always has done – leading them by the nose. He wants them to centre on the Currency Union question and they fell for it.
He has no other plan than to use the pound sterling and he said so at least 22 times during the TV debate with Darling and Darling swallowed it hook, line, sinker and most of the rod as well. There simply is no other plan than to use the pound sterling.
The choice of whether in a currency union or not in a currency union has never rested with the YES campaign nor with an independent Scottish parliament. All they can do is exactly what Eck did – tell anyone interested that we would prefer to have a currency union and thus for Scotland to pay a fair share of the former UK’s debts.
He knew, or at lease sensed, that they would, as usual, take the opposite tack like a whole kennel full of Pavlov’s dogs and do exactly what they did, line-up in a solid lump and shouted, “WOOF! WOOF! We can’t stop you using the pound but by God we can stop you having a currency union”.
Now they cannot get out of that without a loss of face so they fill the mediashere with screams of “What’s your plan B – you have no plan B”. The sane answer is, “What Plan B? We only have one plan with options only you can choose”?
Next step for YES is to confront the NO side with – OK, you lot – What’s it to be? A currency union like we asked for with our promise to pay a share of your debts and allowing our revenues to count towards OUR currency. Or is it to be no currency union and a Scotland with massive resources starting with a clean slate and a hardening pound against a debt ridden England pretending to be the UK with a softening against the hard Scottish pound?
We all really know the answer – don’t we?
Charlie Murphy keeps running away when i ask him a question.
One thing for sure he is not one of the GCHQ mob as he would not run away in the face of the “enemy” or should that be enema , what ever.
Trolls can split hairs but not answer the simplest question. Shame really as it’s Friday and i wanted a wee laugh to get me sorted for the weekend.
Last chance Charlie . One reason i should vote NO ?????
give you more time to think up an answer if you ask nicely and am willing to listen.
goldenayr says:
8 August, 2014 at 11:38 am
chalks
Because he’ll trot a lot of mince and claim it is fact.
Let him hang himself.
@muttley79
Couldn’t agree more. I don’t think he handled the question well right enough, but whatever way he answered it would have received exactly the same response. Same goes for the headlines. I reckon they’d been written days in advance.
Having said that I do think he has a response yet to play, I also think his performance on the night otherwise was measured deliberately. We’ll see.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28703150
“David Cameron announced 22 new members of the UK House of Lords today. Nobody voted for them but they will have a say on our laws. Oh, and you’re footing the bill…”
Quoted from Yes LGBT Facebook Group.
https://www.facebook.com/LGBT4Yes/posts/352823998202205
I am afraid that the Yes campaign will immediately have to disband as there has been a massive development in the referendum campaign. Douglas Alexander has again called for the establishment a Scottish convention in the event of a No vote. This promises to make any talk of independence irrelevant.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/08/douglas-alexander-scottish-convention-independence
Just watched Ref TV.
Bloody good,one question though,has Massie been on Twitter claiming an ambush?
manandboy says: at 10:32 am
One is a former Chancellor of the Exchequer,
while the other is a former teacher,
but they can’t see that 3 is NOT BETTER TOGETHER with 43.
Alistair & Johann – Labour dunces.
If I can just make a wee correction to your post manandboy. 😉
One is a former FAILED Chancellor of the Exchequer,
while the other is a former FAILED teacher. 😉 😛
“We have ONE plan-A and this one makes most sense.
We have FOUR plan-Bs any of which is viable.”
See, now that’s actually a good, punchy answer.
muttley79
Drop the satire,you’re no good at it.
Would love to see the Rev on RefTV. Was a good show today, managed to sort out most of the tech issues from yesterday.
I think they knew what they were doing when they put a middle-upper class English Yes voter on though.
Nice to see that lassie from the Shetlands, so young but a 5th year politics major, go on yerself.
Reading the BBC article, Ed Milliband has effectively stabbed Darling in the back by saying all our currency options have risks. As we still count CU in that then he’s saying that is a risk. Given the BT claim that we’ll only get to our preferred currency option by remaining in the union then that’s obviously also a risk. This is the same kind of less than wholehearted no CU that Ed Balls gave. I’m sure that post YES and assuming Labour get in in 2015 it’ll be concluded that the situation has changed and a CU through continuing joint ownership of the BoE is the way forward.
Latest from project fear.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/08/postal-costs-scotland-independence
Well done James.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scottish-independence-well-done-darling-youve-done-yes-campaign-huge-favour-1460357
My understanding is that the main advantage of a formal currency union over sterlingisation is the lender of last resort issue and bailing out banks. This is a mute point. RBS is the boil of the banking system and its %80 owned by the UK. In the event of independent it will be %72 owned by rUK. Not only do they have to bail it out in order to get their money back, but they have to be seen to be the lender of last resort so that investors have confidence and they never need to bail it out.
The only clause is that RBS could be asked to move to rUK. For reasons of cost and convenience they’d probably only move the dodgy bits. No doubt a loss of revenue. But as they didn’t break up the bad banks (like advised), seriously limit bonuses (like advised) or put anyone in prison then I think keeping it remains risky.
Just one thing about Scottish banknotes. They are not a currency “pegged” to sterling as has been suggested in some comments above. They are sterling. They say so on the face. For all practical purposes they are the same as Bank of England notes.
Also, the £4 billion deposited by the issuing Scottish Banks with the Bank of England is the banks’ money. It’s not ours in the sense of being public money. Except of course to the extent that RBS and HBOS, via Lloyds, are publicly owned.
Money is only a yardstick for wealth. Regardless of the circumstances of the time we have the resources and the skill of our people to make any currency work.
The Darlings of this world do not care a hoot about Scotland’s future currency. They will always work against Scotland’s interests.
No freedom Movement on the planet ever bottled it over the currency, especially those who made great sacrifices to get out from Brutish Rule. We don’t have to fire a shot. All we have too do is put a wee St Andrew’s Cross on a wee piece of paper on the 18th of August. Let’s get out there and make it HAPPEN!
Hillarious! And I told you so.
Ed Miliband, this morning on Good Morning Scotland, accepted that the pound does not belong to England or Scotland, but is shared by the UK. By recognising the pound is a shared asset he concedes that by claiming to be the continued United Kingdom the de facto parliament of England at Westminster are legally the government in debt. This faces them with the problem that whey have two options, (Plans A & B if you like), they can choose either to maintain they are still a United Kingdom after their partner Kingdom leaves and thus be liable for the entire debt or continue as the three country Kingdom of England of the Treaty of Union and share the debts AND THE ASSETS, including the BofE.
So Naysayers “WHAT IS YOUR PLAN B.”
Anyone got an email for ref tv?
Day of action in Perth tomorrow,then putting up garden signs followed by canvassing.Want to see if they’ve got any flyers to hand out.And if they can get them to us by tomorrow.
@goldenayr
try bellacaledonia website, you may get a link there.
The email I received when I registered says not to reply to it…
They have no interest in hearing what is said, and just making a big fuss, trying to muddy te waters so voters feel like Yes are underprepared. They have no intention of adding anything positive to add to the debate.
FMQs the other day literally felt like I was banging my head against a wall. Lamont just continues to read her prepared questions, and can’t adapt subsequent questions to react to the answer she has been given. And she is so predictable, she always starts her reply with something like ‘we got a response from Mr Salmond, but again no answer.’ Despite the fact that he had already told her. Rennie is equally irritating for the same reason, as is Davidson, but at least she has some wit.
I may be weird, but I quite like Ruth Davidson, for a Tory, shes quite a laugh.
Cheers Nana.
I watched the Salmond vs. Darling debate the next morning on the STV player. What I remember best now, two days later, is shouty, angry Darling finger-pointing.
Also, Darling refusing to admit Scotland could be a successful independent country, telling several lies, wasting all his cross-examination time on one issue (currency), interrupting Salmond and asking Salmond questions during Salmond’s cross-examination time, the chair failing to control out-of-control Darling.
Salmond being surprisingly subdued (compared to FMQs), coming out from behind the podium to address the audience directly, seemingly missing a couple of opportunities to set the record straight on BT lies and scares.
I remember thinking while watching that this kind of format really doesn’t allow for reasoned discussion and explanation of (often complex) issues and points.
The lasting image is of a shouty, angry Darling and quiet, reasonable, almost vulnerable Salmond.
I haven’t of course been subject to the UK/”Scottish” MSM barrage, except second-hand here, but in the end, Salmond came out better. He’s the man you’d want to listen to, not the other, the shouty angry one.
Sorry, completely off topic.
On holiday in the highlands this week,I was amused to hear a German lady speaking to the lady behind the counter of the village shop. “My bank card doesn’t seem to work very well in the UK…or in Scotland”.
I think they’ve got it. 🙂
There is no plan B because plan A is nuanced and multivariated.
The plan in an homologue of the currency options examined by the Fiscal Commission.
Sterling is the choice.
How that is effected is determined by the political negotiations post a YES vote.
OK we want our share of the B of E and a CU as well as a proporttional share of our joint assets.
NO!
OK, we will accept no responsibilty for your debts and will still use the £, in a manner to be decided by your answers to our further questions.
But you will be impoverished.
Not impoverished, just without debt and on day one we will have a float from the IMF, the EU, the Chinese, which we will pay off with our superior cash flow.
Vibrating, throbbing sounds from the Westminster Mandarins chair leather.
There is no plan B because plan A is nuanced and multivariated.
The plan in an homologue of the currency options examined by the Fiscal Commission.
Sterling is the choice.
How that is effected is determined by the political negotiations post a YES vote.
OK we want our share of the B of E and a CU as well as a proporttional share of our joint assets.
NO!
OK, we will accept no responsibilty for your debts and will still use the £, in a manner to be decided by your answers to our further questions.
But you will be impoverished.
Not impoverished, just without debt and on day one we will have a float from the IMF, the EU, the Chinese, which we will pay off with our superior cash flow.
Vibrating, throbbing sounds from the Westminster Mandarins chair leather.
Piers Morgan
The former Daily Mirror editor tweeted to his 4.2m followers: “OK, Scotland, you’ve had your fun. Now just quietly vote ‘NO’ and we’ll say no more about it.”
bfh–worth a few yes votes me thinks
Rev :
When you get a chance watch last 5 mins with Polish actor Tomek Borkowy –
He’s got his finger on the pulse of Scotland. Would provide a great post for WoS I’m sure.
http://www.referendumtv.net/referendum-tv-live-0708/
Just gone back through some of the articles by Scott Minto, Morag Kerr and others who pincer all the points that matter all the way through this YES Campaign.
Everything has been viewed under the microscope and there can be little doubt that we Scots have Traitors in SLAB scabs who are unhappy to be Scottish.
Where do they skulk – after Sept.?
Why are they waiting until after the IndyRef when House Prices in their beloved England will slam through the roof when 700,000 flit south and conversely, House Prices in Scotland go through the floor.
The Cost/Benefit Analysis seems skewed when they sell for less than the value – to buy in England at multiples of the value.
Sensible people would be flitting BEFORE the IndyRef and leave Scotland to people who want to live in Scotland under Independence.
Slab scab MP`s,FibDem MP`s and a Tory MP have houses on both sides of the border that we paid for – over centuries.
880 x Unelected Lords – PLUS those Ennobled by BamCam today? (900 now)
Next year, when BamCam`s Boundary Changes are enacted our reps in the Commons will have been CUT from 72 X MP`s in 2001 to only 50 x MPs in 2015.
Vote – “NO” – for less MP`s.?
Aye Right.
Zero Tory MP in Scotland – ever again, yet Scots Tories will have Voted TWICE to be Excluded from the Commons.?
@bookie from hell
I read that, the amount of Yes votes its worth can’t even be counted on a calculator. Maybe we need JKrowling to tweet something similar.
My tweet in response to him is as follows.
@PiersMorgan Your opinion is about as useful as giving safe sex advice to a nun.
Imagine a Union leader going into see management after putting out a press release saying that Plan A is asking for a 10% pay rise for all members. A journo asks what if they say no to your demands? Oh well, says union leader, I’ll just go for Plan B of 2% and some redundancies… Fairly clear how negotiations would go there then.
goldenayr says:
Aye, that was a good one from James Keyy!
goldenayr says:
oops Kelly!
@lumi
That’s very similar to the impression it left me with.
Sorry if it’s been posted.
http://www.energyglobal.com/news/processing/articles/Scottish-independence-and-its-potential-effects-1102.aspx#.U-TViekg_VI
Not smart enough to figure out the underlying conclusions,well,not all of them.
Miliband concedes pound is shared asset and doesn’t rule out CU:
Presenter
I go back to my original point that surely people would expect you, as Labour leader, to do what is in the best interests of those poorer people and you seem to be suggesting that, actually, there is instability without a currency union, the very thing that you are saying no to but maybe you could answer this. Why isn’t it Scotland’s pound?
Ed Miliband
Well, it’s not England’s pound, it’s not Scotland’s pound, it’s the United Kingdom’s pound…
Presenter
…so why would Scotland be excluded from the pound then?
Ed Miliband
Well, if Scotland decides to leave the United Kingdom, Gary, then a decision would have to be made, by the countries that Scotland had left, and there would be two independent countries here, about whether a currency union would be in our interests and, indeed, Scotland would have to make that decision but it would take two independent countries to make that decision…
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/aug/miliband-concedes-pound-shared-asset
Les Wilson
Nice to see the odd rebuttal,rather than the regurgitated,rehashed pseudo journalism the MSM trot out.
@Icy Spark
Now that is so going to be waved in someone’s face in any following debate. 😀
O/T – on Arithmetic for Thickos –
Since 1992 they have been using radio-tags to monitor Grouse Hen numbers but they serially failed to monitor Ballot Boxes where Four vanished in Glenrothes.?
Press and Journal gets more and more desperate, Scots banks at risk with “casual cash union” huge headline “Big Names Urge You to vote No to break up” “SNP rejects TV disaster for AlicSamin” plus pages and pages of royals are wonderful and English cricket team coverage overage. Is Aberdeen now in London or South of England somewhere?
@ Dan Lee
@PiersMorgan Your opinion is about as useful as giving safe sex advice to a nun.
Can’t really agree there:-)
BtP
Press and journal says Jim Murphy “greeted by hecklers on tour” up at Fort William. Oor Jim says it’s usual nationalists that “often turn up shouting and screaming” which is just one more BetterTogether lie today, a small one but they all count.
@ donald anderson
Money is far more than that. It is a representation of relationships, and by representing them in a form which can be exchanged and held it enables the development of relationships which would not otherwise exist. Across both distance and time.
If you replaced “any currency” with “our society” I’d agree with you. It’s the resources and skills of a society that provide its wealth, or its potential wealth, but the choice of currency – and who controls it – determines the extent to which that potential can be fulfilled.
O/T – Apologies.
So the House of Lords now has over 800 unelected troughers. Where now does Scottish representation in Westminster lie? About 3% perhaps?
This plan B shite is just trying to baffle people, just a scare tactic because most people don’t understand economics and they are relying on this to make their case.
What people do understand though is:
who is going to stop the privatisation of the NHS in Scotland. Lamont made a big deal about a Scots couple saying they would have to move to England to gain access to a cancer drug that would prolong the woman’s life blaming Salmond’s Government.
Now, what do I read on the BBC website? “A pioneering new breast cancer treatment will not be routinely available in England and Wales, the NHS drugs advisory body NICE is proposing.”, would you like to backtrack now Miss Lamont
Who is going to put an end to food banks which are an absolute disgrace in a country as rich as Scotland?
Who is going to end child poverty in Scotland?
Who is going help women get back into work without worrying about how they are going to earn enough to pay a child minder and put food on the table, keep a roof over their heads?
With all the discussion with the currency and would Scotland be ‘allowed’ to keep the pound, I am now completely convinced that we are hearing the BIG LIE from the British Establishment. This being told loudly and often and from many voices like good propaganda should
In the back rooms of Westminster we have an elite who are really beginning to show signs of real fear and panic that the YES vote will carry the day. The disastrous impact of a YES vote on Westminster’s finances has not been exposed or explained in the event by this elite. So they hammer away at the pound and plan B.
But has anyone asked Tesco, BP, Honda, Ford Motor Company or even Aldi what they would prefer when the YES vote is declared. These companies are quiet, maybe silenced, because they would clearly want Scotland to continue using the pound. But the Westminster elite continue with the BIG LIE. There will be a currency union. It will likely be framed in an International Agreement or Treaty and we’ll all be happy with that, even Westminster
Plan B is defined as in the above article, but that is not enough for the Unionists. Oh no! They want Alex to say it. That is the great prize for which they strive. They want a
Alex’s b****cks so they can wave them around to a chorus from the media. They want his admission as a statement of his defeat on the point. I don’t think he should give them the chance. Also, it will just lead on to yet another cycle of abuse.
The problem is that truth and logic does not come into the unionist argument. It’s all about deception of the electorate.
Who will stop people losing their disability allowance because, well, you can breathe can’t you, must be a job somewhere for you but we won’t help you find or get it.
Please feel free to add to this list, as these are the real questions we need to be asking as we “WILL”, be using the pound.
My idea on why the MSM is banging on about the currency issue/Plan B for days on end is that they need something to take the spotlight off from the missing positive case for the union. And all the negatives of the union like privatisation of the NHS, growing inequality, foodbanks, things like that.
Maybe the currency issue was chosen because it can be quite emotive. When Finland started talking about joining the Euro, many Finns were very emotional about our currency, the markka.
There’s a historical reason. We got our own currency, the markka, in 1863 – full 54 years before our independence in 1917 – so for nearly 140 years it was seen as a symbol of our independence struggle and eventual independence.
Now, the Scots don’t seem to be so emotional about the pound sterling. Maybe the English are, and BTUKOKNOBNOTNX or whatever they’re called this week, miscalculated that the Scots would be, too, and would be really scared.
Because the more emotive an issue is, the easier it is to generate fear, doubt and uncertainty around it. Why do you think the BTUKOKNOBNOTNXses have been making noises about scary borders and beloved family and friends being scary foreigners? (That assumes that you regard foreigners – even family members – as scary and bad.)
I’ve stopped going on foreign holidays as i can’t cope with all these different currencies.
@lumilumi
What they don’t seem to realise is all they are doing is laying bare their xenophobia for all to see and it is not a pretty site!
Boundary changes reduce Scottish representation whilst Cameron continues to stuff the unelected Lords with bodies (paid voting fodder). Now there are more in the Lords than in the democratically elected Commons. There is something wrong somewhere. It can only get worse.
Its time to get out.
This guy nearly understands.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/emran-mian/scottish-independence-what-powers-would-the-three-main-parties-devolve
I don’t want to spoil Stu’s fun. Awe hell you all know when I say that what’s coming anyway so here goes. 😛
Stu just tweeted this.
http://tinyurl.com/p9dm8zb
Think I’ll say my cheerio’s now folks cause once Stu sees this post I’m on the BANNED list! 😀
Salmond is staying strong on the pound and that is the way it should be. He doesn’t care about plan B because he wants what is in the best interests of not only Scotland but the rUK, a very principled stance in my opinion.
If you’re wondering about PM Cameron, his out of the blue trip to Shetland, giant secret oil fields in the Atlantic, a good indication that there’s a cover up could be that the Press and Journal didn’t report it all.
Normally. P&J tells it’s North of Scotland readers, mostly over 95 years old and retired wing commanders but still, that we must venerate our Tory overlords with quiet deference and respect, so what the feck are these con men up to now?
LA
Fancy a game of Westminster Hold’Em?
Same rules as Texas,except you don’t get dealt any winners.
@lumilumi says:
I watched the Salmond vs. Darling debate the next morning on the STV player. What I remember best now, two days later, is shouty, angry Darling finger-pointing.
Also, Darling refusing to admit Scotland could be a successful independent country.
Also Darling turning his shoulder to the audience (in the hall and on TV) when AS was speaking, and being the one who started and kept up the interrupting.
And, with 1.5M people watching, forgetting to give them the positive case for the Union, seemingly permanently stuck in Private Fraser mode.
If you’re wondering about PM Cameron, his out of the blue trip to Shetland and giant secret oil fields in the Atlantic, a good indication that there’s a cover up could be that the Press and Journal didn’t report it all.
Normally. P&J tells it’s North of Scotland readers, mostly over 95 years old and retired wing commanders but still, that we must venerate our Tory overlords with quiet deference and respect, so what the feck are these con men up to now?
I think the uncertainty over currency needs to be tempered by the inevitability of another private debt crisis in the uk. Incredibly alistair darling seems to think the current business as usual approach by the city of London bank lobby willingly underwritten by the govt aka tax payer is a safe haven.
Interest rates haven’t gone up simply because it will flatline the economy. That’s because the growth is built on a housing debt bubble.
We need to spend the next 4 weeks explaining to people just what is gong on in the uk economy.
People need to watch videos like this…..
http://www.positivemoney.org/issues/democracy/
Im up for it goldenayr, after all I’m ALWAYS on the losing side, except this time I’m not! 😛
The video we saw recently about one of Murphy’s soapbox tour talks had one wee old wumin from the YES side asking him a pertinent question about Brown’s spare part surgery fib.
From the volume of noise around it was obvious that most of the others in the crowd were NO supporters (most likely bussed in for his support). Murphy ignored the wee old wumin, even although she remonstrated with him several times and was as close as a gnats whisker to him. She eventually walked off in disgust with her question unanswered.
Ed Miliband seeks mandate to block currency union, I take it the Palestinian flags flying over Scotland have upset Mr Miliband , who’s a member of Friends of Israel.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11021552/Scottish-currency-union-ruled-out-in-Labour-manifesto-if-Yes-vote.html
http://www.lfi.org.uk/489/
O/T but here is support for YES from a radical figure in American Rap culture –
http://www.clashmusic.com/news/chuck-d-expands-on-scottish-independence-comments?
For a certain generation this is good stuff. I like the Yay or Nay quote. Worth a thousand and ten of Barrowman.
ED Miliband has said Labour’s General Election manifesto will include a specific commitment to block a formal currency union if Scots vote yes in next month’s referendum.
SUNSHINE,LOVE everywhere
@Quentin Quale
In the name of Thor`s Hammer at last an anology I can get my brain type round ,thank you.
Why would anyone in negotiation tell you how little they would take to start proceedings with.
NOBODY bullies Scotland into something that`s not in Scotlands best interest that`s why I want Independence.
Another point that is overlooked, although, I cannot read all the posts, nor use too many capitals, so this may have already been covered. is that economic union (CU) leads to political union, which it does/can do, but NOT as we have now @ all, which is an imperialist union, an asset controlling “union”, run by WM. guess what they want to keep control of the assets . as a sovereign country, scotland, can choose to dissolve any union @anytime, and form alliances with other countries, for example EFTA, or ..any other countries scotland choose’s to set up trade agreements with. scotland does not have trade with rUK @ all, but it would be in all of our interests atm if scotland did, which means WM if you want union with scotland you will now have to earn it and not dictate/demand it or as you do now take it for granted. this indy referendum is about one thing, sovereign power…
alamcennalath says:..(a question that i asked myself, so i’m not the only one asking it!)..8 August, 2014 at 9:47 am…” Yup! We’ll use the pound, one way or another. End of. What puzzled me is why are BT hammering away at this. I know they want Salmond to spell out B so they have something else to attack. Since B is obviously inferior to A, it would be harder to defend. That is not what my WHY question is about. Why do BT think this is a good battleground to choose? I would have thought other things mattered more to the main target group of Labour voting soft-NOs and DKs. Are BT making another mistake, or is there more to this?”
Why because it acts out as if that question has not been asked nor answered when in fact it already has been. so they keep asking it as if it is a fresh/new question that the scottish govt has not even considered, so as to make the scottish govt, look incompetent. and bang on about the negs of sterlingisation (which is plan B) as if this is the/a problem…they will continue to insist that CU is not an option, and that there is no other viable option but to vote no. they do it to fester self-doubt. for many technical/economic reasons CU is the only viable option for r.uk and they know it….so their bluff is called!
Although I can’t stand George Galloway, I find regarding the slaughter of women and children in Palestine, we have something in common.
http://metro.co.uk/2014/08/08/george-galloway-behaving-like-hitler-of-bradford-declaring-the-city-an-israel-free-zone-4825409/
Heard on BBC radio Scotland this morning, in a heated debate over Palestine/Israel, that Palestinian children are writing their names on their arms and legs,and torso, when asked by a foreign journalist, why they were doing this, they replied, when I’m blown up, they’ll know who I am, and they’ll keep all my body parts togther and bury me..
@ Lesley-Anne (3.18pm)
Ooooo, WoS playing cards! I want two decks to play Canasta with! (Not sure how to play liars’ poker as suggested by someone on Twitter.)
But this is a matter for the people of Scotland to decide and I must restrain my greed for these brilliant collectors’ items so that they can be distributed to undecided and soft NO voters in Scotland along with plenty of good reasons to vote YES.
The same goes for Stu’s upcoming wee blue book. I’d love one but it’d be more use in the hands of a door-chapping YES activists and DKs/soft NOs. I hope the Scottish National Library will get a few copies so I can see (and touch) it there the next time I come to Scotland.
ANDY-B
Ed Miliband seeks mandate to block currency union, I take it the Palestinian flags flying over Scotland have upset Mr Miliband , who’s a member of Friends of Israel.
So is Murphy, Lord Reid and so was Tory Wedgewood Benn.
Whatever the cause Labour has a front for and against. A Vote for me is Vote for me.
Talking of arithmetic, and going a bit OT, I’ve been studying some polling from Survation
http://i1.wp.com/www.glawest.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Screen-Shot-2014-08-08-at-10.26.16.png
As always interesting, but how accurate is it?
Firstly it claims to be “Weighted by Likelihood to Vote in Referendum”. This must surely be measured by ‘did you vote last time?’ We are told that registration is at an all time high, and a high turn out is to expected. A look at the figures shows that the lower the social grouping, the higher the Yes (and DK). ‘DE’ people traditionally vote least often, so they will be weighted against. Conversely ‘AB’ people vote most often, appear to be NOs more often, and will be weighted higher. Does this not mean the overall weighting is downplaying YES voters?
So, does the 40.2% Yes, 45.9% No perhaps contain a weighting bias against YES? In reality YES is higher? Nice thought!
Secondly, the data shows some interesting regional, gender, age and party differences. data samples are small, but trends emerge. Tories are a lost cause! It’s difficult to know what some of the regions actually are, however NE and Glasgow are YES, Lothian & Mid Scotland/Fife are NO.
The gap between men and women will close. More women are DKs, but if female DKs convert in the established 70:30 Y:N then male/female will be close with women only slightly more NO.
Old people and younger people err to NO. Those aged 45-65 are firmly YES.
Here’s a wee ditty from Alex Salmond when he was at a conference at Dynamic earth on Wednesday.
http://tinyurl.com/ppr4uj8
Some the arguments for IndyScotland on Wings, Bella etc are brilliant. They seem so good I can’t understand why AS and the top team don’t use them. We all use them on the doorstep and it’s there that the persuasion is happening. If the SNP spokespeople (let’s face it….they are the ones with most MSM exposure) would only use what we use…..maybe the polls would shift more significantly.
goldenayr
I’m stealing that hold’em joke for twitter
LA
Can’t believe you’ve ever been a loser.
Dan Lee
Feel free,plenty more.
Scots need to realise that we hold all the cards in this referendum . We simply need to vote YES and then decide what ‘hand outs’ we are willing to give to rUK. 😀
Sympathetic journalists, I can guess one, who’s the other.
The biggest Flipper BetterTogether lie is their whole spreading of risk, sharing the burdens, spreading the wealth around the whole of teamGB but look at the way Banksters took hundreds of billions in our taxes, City class got richer and richer, just like Bliar did and Crash and the Flipper, with the worst off taking all the losses. It’s just appalling that these con artists can slither around Scotland spreading their broad strong UKok shoulders garbage aswell as getting fellated by reprobates in all news outlets.
The biggest most powerful in the UK right wing is the City of London but it’s socialist workers like Crash and the Fliipper that handed these crooks unimaginable amounts of money, and they completely dodged any controls or legislation to at least try and stop them doing it all again.
How many of the most vulnerable people in the UK have died at the hands of ATOS while City spivs enriched themselves, probably doesn’t bear thinking about.
ASye well someone has to be a loser goldenayr and it is usually me … but NOT THIS TIME! 😛
@donald anderson So is Murphy, Lord Reid and so was Tory Wedgewood Benn.
Whatever the cause Labour has a front for and against. A Vote for me is Vote for me.
Too true Donald.
Here are just twelve of the new peers in the House of Lords David Cameron created, Cameron created them without your consent, and they’ll have a say in the powers over you, and Oh, you’ll be paying for them through the nose, until they die, unless you vote yes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/08/david-cameron-12-tory-donors-cronies-peers_n_5661132.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
Working on a new card game in fact.
Westminster Lose’Em.
You place your ante(tax)and the dealer(HMG)nicks it.
@edward robinson
That’s it exactly. We need to keep shouting this.
@David Wardrope says: 8 August, 2014 at 12:22 pm:
“Been warming to Russell Brand recently with some of the noises he’s been making in politics”. </i
What is it with all these comedians and the Scottish Referendum? (and some of the show business comics are just as bad).
LA
Keep that up and I’ll stop feeling sorry for myself,thought I was the biggest loser. 😀
Robert Peffers
Nice one.
Let the Jokeathon commence!
Sorry I’m O/T here, well I am the O/T kid (amongst other things 😛 ), I’ve just read over on Twitter that everyone’s favourite NON Westminster politician, our Nige, will be standing for election in the 2015 General Election in South Thanet in Kent.
If I remember rightly, that is one hell of a UKIP supoort area so anyone who is of the betting fraternity better get their bets in quick I reckon. 😉
Andy
“Although I can’t stand George Galloway, I find regarding the slaughter of women and children in Palestine, we have something in common.”
Galloway still supports Labour, who divided Palestine. He still supports Labour who sent Troops IN to Ireland. Labour and Galloway Brit Nats “supporting” Palestine. Mandela, Guevara and Adams? Talk about ‘arving a giraffe?
LA
Does that mean he could shorten his initials to..
N’F’M P ?
I reserve my right to artistic licence in order for that joke to work.
That would work for me goldenayr but I think this one might work a wee bit better.
MEPN’F’MP 😛
Mary Bruce said,
‘You could see the penny drop, it was like a lightbulb going on. Suddenly they realised that the no campaign is about London keeping hold of Scotland’s resources.’
– spot on my dear as usual.
Below is a comment on the ed millie article in the torygraph. Does ed have a brain?
Spite. So I suppose that he is saying that Scotland is not important to him or needed to win the GE and from that he does not mind alienating the 40-odd% of Scots that are currently planning to vote Yes. Nice move Ed – I feel Labours love.
LA
You win…again 😀
One minor benefit of adopting our own currency is that we’ll get to name it. Call me petty but I like the idea of naming the penny/cent equivalent “the darling”. Purely for the sheer pleasure of saying:
” Each Scottish Pound is worth 100 darlings”
or perhaps
“it’s 100 darlings to the Groat”
We’re not only Westminster’s Public Enemy No1.
http://www.clashmusic.com/news/chuck-d-expands-on-scottish-independence-comments
Don’t know what to make of this,generally I think it’s positive.
http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/business/business-opinion/andrew-whitehead-wheres-energy-scottish-7585520
Sorry for going O/T … AGAIN! YAWN! P)
I found this wee interview with Tommy Sheridan. It’s not necessarily his answers that are interesting but the questions, from a 12 year old. Possible future journalist with morals and ethics perhaps? 😉
http://tinyurl.com/pq2jyyx
Robert Peffers 1.57pm
I’m with you all the way Robert, Alec is cunning little bugger and thank god we’ve got him. But I do think he could have done it a bit better.
All this guff about the CU/plan-b just gets on the nerves cos for me it’s just one question to answer.
Q. What currency will Scotland use?
A. The POUND. They can have it with a CU or they can try and get by without it, it’s up to them. WE are using the pound, end of…
Surprised its taken the torygraph so long to blame cybernats.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11021886/Celebrities-who-urged-Scotland-to-reject-independence-attacked-by-cybernats.html#disqus_thread
Apologies if I’ve missed something, but beyond political posturing can someone tell me if the unionist parties have advanced ANY sound economic reason as to why there shouldn’t be a currency union? And if so, what is it?
Christ the Graun stinks!
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/aug/08/scotland-newspapers
Every single news media, tv, papers, radio, in Scotland is English owned, but no doubt its all happy coincidence time again.
Click on the EY report at bottom of page.
http://www.energyglobal.com/news/processing/articles/Scottish-independence-and-sovereign-wealth-fund-1103.aspx#.U-Tquukg_VI
Interesting debate at work. Managed to explain currency situation and they agreed that I had done a better job than Salmond. Also explained EU situation. Hopefully these newly enlightended people will spread the word. Explained that all this info is available widely they just need to seek it.
My Slovene girlfriend’s being great guns monstering everything Scottish so am reaching out to Slovenia to try and get a real attitude in that country, as opposed to say a poster of something Slovene in a Glasgow uni law dept study.
https://en-gb.facebook.com/feel.slovenia
Maybe even try and ask the Slovene government the what and why of Aliesbadas too.
Wasn’t there a poll some months back that concluded currency and EU was not important to voters?
Heedtracker, that sharing the burden mince from Darling drew the biggest laugh of the night in the STV “debate”. It’s a shame Salmond didn’t get the opportunity to dig him up on it. Fourteen years of Labour government resulted in an increase in inequality, with Mandelson famously expressing his relaxed attitude to wealth inequality. Pretending that the reverse is the case seems to be a Labour hack line as our useless MSP James Kelly (not the good guy from Scot goes Pop!) came out with it in our local paper, the Rutherglen Reformer. Give them enough rope….
If BT want to play hardball so be it.They say no currency union,threaten not to buy Scottish
Electricity amongst many other threats.Time to take the gloves off.Time to tell BTthat we will not be taking UK debt and time to look for other countries to buy our electricity,oil and gas.
All this and a growing consensus that ECK actually put them right into his trap. Brought back to me the SUN front page yesterday where some sneaky shit photographed ECK having a nap.
I was disgusted with it really, but what I do remember now was that he had a very serene look on his face while sleeping, almost a smirk. Hmmmm, I am now thinking, contrary to what the MSM are portraying he seemed very happy with himself! Job done eh!
http://www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk/Independence-Debate/Have-your-say-08082014.htm
Another union dividend for us who live rurally.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28706022
@ pro-loco (3.34pm)
Contrast Chuch D’s comments with those of Piers Morgan as reported by Bookie from Hell @ 2.41
OK, Scotland, you’ve had your fun. Now just quietly vote ‘NO’ and we’ll say no more about it.
I mean, how patronising is Piers Morgan! I’m surprised he didn’t threaten to send Scotland up to bed without pudding.
That brings me to that “love-letter” signed by 200 “celebrities”. (So aptly decribed as the Who’s That? of the UK “glitterati”.)
How many people actually change their intended vote based on what some rich celebrity says? Precious few. Most people can distinguish between the “fairytale world” of gossip-mag/media celebrities and the real world they themselves inhabit.
Visible, popular and even respected people endorsing your campaign by some media-reported comment or signing a letter will give a feel-good factor to campaigners, a boost to the morale, but it won’t change the hearts and minds of the opposition.
The only way a “celebrity” can make a real difference in a campaign is to actively campaign: speak out about the whys and wherefores of their decision, explain the issues, show the potential voters that they’ve though it through, inviting the audience to do the same. Being “well-known” gives them an opportunity to reach more people than ordinary campaigners. A bit like Elaine C Smith.
Signing a daft “love-letter” from the comfort of your mansion in SE England/your preferred tax-haven won’t convince soft NOs/DKs/YESsers but gives a nice, warm glow to hard-core NO-supporters.
The same, of course goes for YES. It’s nice to have the one and only, original James Bond on our side but nobody’s going to vote YES because of Caribbean tax-exile Sean Connery.
However, the YES side has lots of lesser-known “celebrities”, mostly creatives, who actually live in Scotland and have a vote. Many of them even actually campaign, using their potentially better media access to get the word out there.
“Celebrities” can give a boost to a campaign. In the last Finnish Presidential election the centre-right party’s candidate and the Green Party’s candidate emerged as the top two of the half-dozen or so candidates of the first round, so would face each other in the run-off.
Lots of Finnish “celebrities” (actors, musicians, even sportspeople) flocked to the Green Party candidate and the eventual result was closer that anybody could’ve anticipated.
The centre-right candidate of course won, I never thought the Finnish electorate would elect a gay green man who had registered a civil partnership with a Colombian (foreign!) hairdresser. However, it was a lot tighter than anticipated, and the main factor was was of course that most lefty people got behind the not-rightist candidate but the increasing “celebrity” endorsement and the boost, the momentum created a movement.
It should be said that most Finnish “celebrities” (actors, musicians etc.) are not very rich or “establishment”. More down-to-earth and ordinary, so easier for ordinary voters to identify with.
I’m not sure if (local) politicians count as “celebrities” but it seems a few more LABs and LIBs have come out for YES since the debate. So Alex Salmond must’ve won it, after all! 😀
(Sorry for long post, the test cricket is off due to rain…)
Mat says:
8 August, 2014 at 10:32 am
@Murry McCallum
“Scotland is trying to be reasonable until the option of being fair is taken away from us.”
It appears to me – helpless in Dubai – that we have at least reached, if not surpassed, that point.
Can we see some ‘teeth’ soon? I am hoping AS and the YES team step up to the ‘plate’ very soon, as I want to come home to a NEW Scotland. Very selfish – I know.
‘Bebe says:
8 August, 2014 at 10:22 am
I think the journalists have watched an entirely different debate from the one I watched on Tuesday…. I buy Scottish Mail ‘
Not wishing to be impertinent but why does anybody buy any of MSM in Scotland, if their intention is to vote Yes? Should we not leave that to Rev Stu and the other pundits?
@ David Stevenson, Salmond did a wee bit, like when Darling was waffling away about weak small countries and troubles balancing books and Salmond went, every country has to balance its books, which looked like UKOK national debt WTF you walking debt mountain builder you, Flipper, but Salmond stopped dead.
So clearly tactical change of play and did it work? Salmond still getting monstered in the Press and Journal here in ABZ for bullying and thuggery on poor wee Flipper’s sorry bottom. So probably not:D
Need some help, does anyone know if the UK gov plan to start means testing.
Oh and this is good…
http://www.yesscotland.net/news/warning-miliband-labour-heartland-more-30-your-voters-back-yes
Alex Salmond speaking on currency union at the Business for Scotland conference –
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/first-minister-no-currency-deal-no-debt-deal/
If you wanted a new Scottish currency, but were worried that some folk might be worried about that step, what would you do?
Might you engineer a situation that has most Scots saying get your Brit pound right up ye?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/07/scotland-pound-independence-alex-salmond?commentpage=16 wow! hitting 3500 Graun CiF’s. Middle England CiF does not want to see Scotland run Scotland ever. Why do they bother anyway, they’re merely repeating over and over future Lady Johann Lamont of StrathScotlandshire genius.
“It is not for the first minister, no matter how limitless he thinks his powers are, to determine what is in the national interest of another country,” said Johann Lamont, the Scottish Labour leader” aye, ya bastirts
Juteman says:
8 August, 2014 at 5:21 pm
If you wanted a new Scottish currency, but were worried that some folk might be worried about that step, what would you do?
Might you engineer a situation that has most Scots saying get your Brit pound right up ye?
Maybe, if you had £4 billion BettertogetherBBC propaganda machine and all other UKOK media at your behest.
Dan Snow now taking it to the streets and blogging.
“… what we can achieve in our diverse, eclectic country when we ignore what might divide us and focus instead on what we have in common.”
I’d suggest that those things are, respectively, Westminster and foodbanks. Think I’ll keep them front of mind for now, thanks. But hey, as Cheap Trick had it, I Want You To Want Me.
Obviously I made an arse of the point I was trying to make. heedtracker.
BT and the MSM are criticising Salmond for not having a Plan B.
BT doesn’t even have a plan A if there’s a Yes vote. On anything!
Isn’t it funny how the UK Govt says it won’t “pre-negotiate” but pretends to rule out a currency union? The irony is lost on these people. Anywaaay, two can play this “Plan B” game. Oooh yes. Next time a No person comes up to you and gleefully goes, “What’s your Plan B, nyah nyah nyah?”, there are so many variants you can throw right back at them but two will do for now. 1) “If Britain votes to leave the EU and Scotland votes to stay in the referendum, what’s your Plan B?” The No campaign doesn’t like David Cameron’s wee EU in/out referendum in 2017 to be brought up because it complicates their message (aw shucks!) “What will you say to Scots whose jobs depend on membership and wish to continue as EU citizens? What will you tell the SNP government with a Scottish majority behind it and which insists on remaining inside the EU? Where will the trading partnerships come from to replace the UK’s biggest market? What is your Plan B?” 2) “What’s your Plan B for dealing with Trident in the event of a Yes? The people are entitled to know, are they not? How will they be defended if Scotland gets rid of the subs? Will you be sending that one ship up again that gave the Russians the heebiejeebies (aye right!) when they parked themselves on the Scottish coast some time ago?” If anyone can think of any more, please let me know and I’ll compile a list.
@Alex Kashko says: 8 August, 2014 at 1:14 pm:
“My favourite is the Swiss Franc, but I am ready to be persuaded another currency is better.”
For a start you cannot just adopt just any old countries currency. Only those that are international trading currencies. In the second place the Pound Sterling was the legally agreed currency between the two Kingdoms. It was NOTthe currency of any of the four British countries of that time. It is thus the currency of a Kingdom of two equally sovereign former kingdoms that united as The United Kingdom and was formed on 1 May 1707.
When that bipartite United Kingdom disunites it ends, (that’s the first myth broken). The pound belongs equally to both former partners. The Bank of England was a private company until 1946 when the UK, (not England), nationalised it. It thus belongs to each former Kingdom and there is no legal basis for the claims that the split is on a population ratio basis. After all that population ratio has changed throughout the past over 300 years. Thus both the currency and the BofE are subject to negotiations.
What is not up for negotiation is the right to be the United Kingdom. It remains a bipartite treaty and thus ends when the two signatories part. Now we get to the real bones of this argument but first we need to look at recent history and how it makes things hard to reconcile with the actual legal situation. Westminster decided to muck about with the agreements made in the treaty but ignored Scots law that holds the people of Scotland as sovereign but did not consult them. Westminster divided up the Kingdom but along the lines of countries instead of as Kingdoms but Westminster retained itself as the Parliament of theCOUNTRY of England and thus became the de facto parliament of England that proceeded to devolve the country of England’s powers to the other three countries and now is about to claim it will remai8n a united Kingdom while united to no other kingdom having annexed both Wales & Ireland before the treaty of union.
Here’s the legal result – if they claim to be the continued state then all agreements made by Westminster and all debts due are Westminster’s debts . If they do not enter a currency union then the Kingdom of Scotland owes nothing. As the straight lady said to the bi-sexual person – with me you cannot have it both ways.
If Option 2 in the original post is indeed incontrovertibly Alex Salmond’s “Plan B” position, and if it’s in his power to guarantee that, why doesn’t he just come out and say so?
There’s more going on here than meets the eye.
Nice one Nana Smith, another poll today had Yes ahead of No by 9% 🙂
On the CU, look again at FMQT from Thursday, and at the FM’s answer to Willie Rennie,
Alex says: It would be a very beneficial position for Scotland to adopt to say that we will take none of the assets but also take none of the debt, this would mean that Scotland would start with no debt and would be in surplus, however this is not a reasonable position to adopt, so we have ””OFFERED””’ to take our fair share of the debt.
I think this is the beginning of a move for the Yes campaign to say to people we will either have a CU or EVEN BETTER we will start off independent with NO DEBT !!!
No Debt, No cuts, no bedroom tax, no food-banks, no pension worries, etc etc etc!
Oh, and Robert Peffers, the legal situation hardly matters. Any country can repudiate its debt “legally” by simply passing a law to that effect.
Churm Rincewind says:
I would doubt the rUK could do that, or would even dare try too!
@Nana Smith that other poll was for the South of Scotland, just hearing another poll reported that Glasgow was Yes, but don’t have figures/%s.
@Patrick Roden
Yes and someone on here this morning put up the details for Glasgow.
@Patrick Roden
http://www.glawest.org/poll-shows-yes-takes-the-lead-in-glasgow/
Well that’s it we don’t need a referendum, Bernard Ponsonby has told us along with Ed the talking mule the currency trick is dead in the water.
Well AS in your own time, you can tell them you tried to prevent Westminster from committing suicide but they ain’t interested, they are determined.
When your ready Alex you can tell them ok if your sure that’s what you want to do, carry on. At least it will get all this shit about currency union off the EBC/ STV/MSM as they will be to busy watching the money markets tear £sterling apart as it goes into free fall.
The Sottish £ will after a short while be a very acceptable and strong currency by the money markets. The £sterling without the strength and support of £Scottish will probably never recover. May it rest in peace, along with the butchers apron. If they behave we might give them some foreign aid from our budget, if they behave.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/08/did-stv-just-come-out-in-favour-of-the-union/
Patrick Roden @ 6.13pm (and Nana above)
I’ve seen reports and links to four polls showing YES ahead: D&G, Highlands&Islands, NE, and Glasgow.
No wonder the BBC/MSM/UK establishment are getting ever more shrill and panicky.
All the links to those polls (Survation for SNP, I think) and their reporting in the local press were in the comments here on WoS. Not in the MSM. Sorry I can’t be ersed to dig them all out right now.
Maybe try the SNP website to see all of them? The reports in local online press have always quoted a local SNP MSP (and a sour BTUKOKNOBNOTNX’s spokesperson dismissing the poll.)
It’s all going wrong. 😀 YES-Blair (Jenkins) has said time and again that they don’t expect (or, indeed, want) polls to show YES ahead until the very final days. And finally on the poll that really matters, the one on 18 September.
Interesting times.
It seems to me that the momentum is with the YES campaign and the people of Scotland are about to make history. On their own terms, for the first time.
Make sure you DO make history! Vote YES!
@ Mike
Why not take pounds, euros and a new scottish currency and just trade with any of it? Would make it easier for tourists and more fun for everyone else. Can I have my price in euros today please? And my change in dollars.
________________________
I don’t think that will be happening but during the change over to the Euro you would pay with your national currency and get your change in Euros.
@ Nana Smith (4.44pm)
Thanks, Nana, for that link to the Ross-shire Journal’s column by Alistair Carmichael (popularly known as the Secretary of State for Portsmouth).
I’ll repeat the link
http://www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk/Independence-Debate/Have-your-say-08082014.htm
In the interest of being positive and fair (the official YES campaign mantra), I’ll give credit where it’s due. Alistair Carmichael only urges people to vote, no matter which way. The pro-union blurb was written by some sub-editor.
The cynic in me is of course thinking that AC is just trying to ensure his continued political career in indy Scotland, hoping the voters will forget his past crimes as part of the vicious Tory/LibDem Westminster government. Whatever the truth, it’s nice to read something from the NO side that isn’t totally shrill and negative.
(Oh god, I hope they don’t get any ideas and start littering the local press with such reasonable contributions from BTUKOKNOBNOTNX people! 😮 )
‘Papadox says:
8 August, 2014 at 6:31 pm
‘… The £sterling without the strength and support of £Scottish will probably never recover. May it rest in peace, along with the butchers apron. If they behave we might give them some foreign aid from our budget, if they behave.’
Has this been leaked to the English populace??
YESGUY says:
8 August, 2014 at 1:57 pm
Charlie Murphy keeps running away when i ask him a question.
I see charlie has kept you waiting, I thought i would help him and give you a solid sound reason
Sorry Charlie couldn’t think of one either…
heedtracker 5.03pm
…Darling was waffling away about weak small countries and troubles balancing books and Salmond went, every country has to balance its books,…
Thanks for reminding me of this gem in the debate.
Alistair Darling didn’t actually say small countries have trouble balancing their books, he said small countries have to balance their books, repeated it several times (with an angry pointy finger) that small countries have to balance their books, and I was screaming at the screen, “And large countries don’t?!?!”
Actually, maybe large countries with prestigious international currencies, such as the US or the UK, do not have to balance their books. How convenient for one of the worst Chancellors in UK history.
Large countries just print more of their prestigious currency. Their whole economies are based on thin air but no-one dares to call the bluff for fear of collapsing the global capitalist economy.
Small countries have to be prudent and live within their means. Is that a BAD thing?
Bookies verdict on the ‘debate’
Ladbrokes before ‘debate’ YES over 55% – 6/1
Today – 11/2
@lumilumi The cynic in me is of course thinking that AC is just trying to ensure his continued political career in indy Scotland, hoping the voters will forget his past crimes as part of the vicious Tory/LibDem Westminster government. Whatever the truth, it’s nice to read something from the NO side that isn’t totally shrill and negative.
I don’t expect anything less from a lib dem. I will not forget or forgive his contribution to the debate.
Carmichael is retiring. Not standing again. Possibly because there will be no contest.
Just watched a clip of Alex Salmonds speech to Business Scotland the day after the Tv debate.Explained the Currency situation perfectly ,even so called political journalists could understand it.As for being finished you could have fooled me still head and shoulders above anyone else in Scottish Politics.
Scottish Independence: Well Done Darling, You’ve Done the Yes Campaign a Huge Favour
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scottish-independence-well-done-darling-youve-done-yes-campaign-huge-favour-1460357
Sorry , not been able to read every post tonight . This may be a trivial question .
Scottish Pound notes all state ” ….. Pounds Sterling ” where as BoE Notes just say “……POUNDS”
Is there any significance to this ?
iScotland without CU . Currently 95% of goods(non food) for sale in every store etc is imported into UK usually via an Office / warehouse in England-shire, there are some in Scotland of course . Global brands Sony ,Yamaha , Honda etc warehouse in Belgium or Holland etc and ship to Europe & UK . Without CU every business may have money exchange rates to deal with , an unavoidable cost .We already do this when importing from the wider world where upon the Global Currency is USd , even importing from China its nearly always USd . The real threat to rUK is NOT these additional costs . The real threat to rUK is whether we buy from the Office/warehouse in England-shire at all . The Euro rate could be attractive and many in iScotland may choose to purchase from Sony , Yamaha or Honda in Spain ,Portugal ……. where ever they get the best deal . As I said goods are already being despatched from the Central Euro Warehouse now . rUK would have a helluva lot more to loose than they realise !
Re: weighting by likelihood to vote – this is usually based on a self-assessment within the poll in question along the lines of “if there were an election/referendum tomorrow, how likely would you be to vote?” (Scale of 1-10)
People’s assessment of this is notoriously inaccurate, particularly if the vote in question, which is never actually “tomorrow”, is a long way into the future. So some pollsters have chosen not to ask this until close to the date.
Some pollsters eliminate everyone who isn’t 10/10; others include those 7/10 or more; yet others weight proportionally, with a 10/10 having twice the significance of a 5/10. YouGov ignores likelihood to vote altogether.(http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/faq-turnout)
I assume all pollsters will be using their normal election methodology for the referendum. There will be some correlation, usually, with past voting behaviour and declared likelihood; as was pointed out, this may not apply in September because of the expected increase in turn-out.
http://niesr.ac.uk/sites/default/files/publications/dp415.pdf
Nobody who has done any analysis of this – or studied economics beyond 6th Year Studies – seriously thinks that informal use of Sterling is an option that the SG would use. The paper above is an informative, impartial look at what the options really are. As I have been saying on these pages for may weeks, a new currency is by far the best option for an independent Scotland.
YES Rev. Stu you’r excellent explanaiton should be understood by Johann Lamont, Ruth Davidson and oor Willie BUT after his recent articles Ah’ve got ma doubts that poor old Andrew Nicoll might struggle to grasp it.
I remember A. N. saying that when people buy the Sun they are buying a product and know what they are buying. Not really true, that is it? Nicol has been writing some reasonable articles for over a year. But off late he’s been slowly drifting to an anti-independence position.
manandboy
“The UK WITHOUT Scotland, it is reasonable to say, would be at around 43 – the difference being 20 places
(23 minus 3 = 20) are you keeping up, Alistair & Johann ?”
That is innumerate nonsense.
Since money seems to be so important why don’t you pitch for no 1. That’s Qatar which is a dubious role model.
@Robert Peffers: £ sterling pre-dates the Union. Which is why Article 16 of the Union says –
Article 16:
That from and after the Union the Coin shall be of the same standard and value, throughout the United Kingdom, as now in England, And a Mint shall be continued in Scotland under the same Rules as the Mint in England And the present Officers of the Mint continued subject to such Regulations and Alterations as Her Majesty Her Heirs or Successors, or the Parliament of Great Britain shall think fit.
Rev. Stu – if it is so simple(and it does seem to be from what you’ve written), why did Salmon fail to explain it so that the audience didn’t boo him? If this is his life’s work and he’s been coached to within an inch of his life before going on the telly, how did it go so badly? I really don’t understand. He was supposed to wipe the floor with Darling.
Plan A is is either what we get, or a red herring to be discarded in exchange for a concession. No debt, for example.
Since WM won’t “pre-negotiate” why should Yes by conceding Plan A for nothing, before the parties are even around the table?
If Yes were to nominate Plan B, that would just give WM the opportunity to criticise it and Plan A would just be a distant memory as WM calls for Plan C to be revealed.
If Scotland takes on no debt, it will have no credibility in the international markets – so it’s not an option.
And given that scotland has no credit history (as it’s effectively not existed in terms of credit rating), will already be paying more to finance the debt than rUK as it’ll have to pay more interest.
I tried to get a mortgage after living abroad for 3 years – I was effectively unemployed as i didn’t exist on the system even though I’d been working the whole time. That’s how Scotland will be.
It’s not fair!!!
That’s how Scotland will be. It’s not fair!!!
For over 300 years Scotland has sent it’s wealth and resources to London to be divvied up and get less back than we contribute. We get weapons of mass destruction to keep for teamGB right next to our densest population centre, we have poverty and foodbanks in one of the richest country’s on the planet etc etc
IT’S NOT FAIR!!
@Suzy – If Scotland takes on no debt, it will have no credibility in the international markets – so it’s not an option
Hate to burst your bubble Suzy but this is a different take in an article by David Scheffer in the New Statesman in Feb..
Dire warnings that Scotland’s credibility in the markets would somehow nosedive if this transfer of debt were to happen overlook two simple facts. First, the UK Treasury already has agreed to cover all UK gilts in the event of independence, a point Osborne made in his speech. So there is no default on the horizon to panic investors. Second, Scotland would start afresh as a debt-free nation with the apparent agreement, indeed blessing, of the rUK. Perhaps Westminster really has decided to absorb completely the UK debt and thus not negotiate, but rUK taxpayers may wonder about the wisdom of such folly, particularly by a Conservative government. Creditors and investors might view the Scottish position – one of willing to pay, in good faith, its fair share of the UK debt but reluctantly avoiding that financial burden if London insists on being a continuator state and rejecting negotiations – as a sign of financial strength and political acume, rather than weakness or naivety in Edinburgh.
Les Wilson – I agree. But some seem to think that this is an option for an independent Scotland.