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Wings Over Scotland

We’re not sad

Posted on April 08, 2013 by

And we’re not going to hypocritically pretend that we are.

Glorying in the death of an individual is unseemly, especially one long past the time when they did their damage. Owen Jones put it well here. Today, though, with no shame whatsoever, we celebrate the death of an icon. Not the human being, but the values they stood for and their appalling toxic legacy of what was once a country one could be proud of being a part of.

That country died in 1979, and its corpse was dug up and desecrated in 1997. Nothing we could say, no matter how awful, would be a tenth as despicable as the changes wrought in Britain over those last 34 years. So we’re going to say nothing, and play a song with words that are impossible to make out. You might prefer some others.

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    109 to “We’re not sad”

    1. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Someone on Twitter just put it better than I could:

      “Thatcher is dead but Thatcherism is very much alive. Can’t we swap?”


    2. G. Campbell says:

      BBC Radio Scotland already going big on the SNP bringing Thatcher to power.

    3. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Shame, just when she’d been found fit for work too.”

      “With the death of thatcher, my thoughts and prayers go to her victims.”

      “You try growing up in a 1980’s pit village and then say people are wrong for celebrating a death”

      “New Labour’s mentor and ideological inspiration, Margaret Thatcher is dead. Never mind, eh, we still have Ed Miliband to carry on her work.”

      “So much genuine joy at her death. Imagine that as a memorial.”

      “If you grew up in Scotland in the 80s this is like hearing that the concept of evil has died.”

      “What a terrible shame – that it wasn’t 87 years earlier”

      “Of course Margaret Thatcher had a stroke. She’d just found out how much her benefits were being cut.”

    4. Stuart Crawford says:

      Add this to the playlist.

    5. John Böttcher says:

      Pete Wiley’s song is very catchy – 
      Hoping for a release on iTunes…

    6. Geoff Huijer says:

      Dunno about a swap, but Thatcherism seems to have been
      welcomed with open arms by those in power.
      It’ll take a lot longer to die – Independence can change that.

    7. Ally says:

      Just a shame she won’t be around to witness Scotlands Independence!

    8. Juteman says:

      I can taste that first pint already!

    9. Johnnypict says:

      Thatcher gone but the legacy remains. The latest Tory scourge coming from not only her party but spreading to the Lib Dems and Labour.
      I remember the miner strikes, the closing of Ravenscraig blah, blah, blah.
      This better not turn into the state funeral we were promised and (love him or hate him) to paraphras Frankie Boyle …Why spend all that money when there are 5 million Scots that will dig a hole deep enough to hand her over to Satin personally.

      Forgive me if I don’t shed a tear.

    10. ewen says:

      Radio Scotland described her”affection for Scotland” and are hammering home the view that the SNP let her in. Personally this news has cheered me up immensely after freezing my arse off in Livingston watching the Jags yesterday. I am off work tomorrow so will be avoiding the eulogising and having a wee drink.

    11. Luigi says:

      “Events, Dear Boy, Events”. Stand by, history about to be re-written. The red and blue tories will be falling over themselves with tributes.

    12. panda paws says:

      I didn’t know she died until I read this page. And like Rev Stu I’m not going to pretend I’m sad either. I loathed Thatcher and everything she stood for. That said, a family has lost a mother and grandmother and I can empathise with their personal feeling of loss. And she’ll have friends who’ll mourn her, but me no. I just hope she has a private funeral. the thought of her having a state funeral sickens me.

    13. megz says:

      I was born the year she came to power so i dont feel the same hatred others do, i just feel indifference. just heard that the  state funeral for Thatcher will be on par with The Queen Mother and Diana o.O

    14. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      For £3m you could give everyone in Scotland a shovel & we could dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to Satan in person! Frankie Boyle

    15. Iain nef says:

      A state funeral and associated nonsense will put at least 5% on the Yes vote overnight. Pity she couldn’t have hung on until early September next year!

    16. Cath says:

      Can’t raise myself to give a fuck, frankly. She was terrible, but her legacy lives on in UK politics, largely in New Labour. The new Tories she spawned are way to the right of her and far more nasty, as well as being entirely of the elite.
      So it’s impossible to be happy – even if you wanted to be happy about the death of a senile old lady – because she won in the UK totally and absolutely. OTOH, I don’t feel an ounce of sympathy or care that she’s dead, because of all she did and all she left behind.
      In one way I hope there isn’t a state funeral. In another way I hope there is. Let the over-fed British establishment have a glorious state funeral for her, with union jacks adorning the route and great all-British sentiment about what a wonderful British prime minster she was. It’ll help us with next year.

    17. John H says:

      I might feel a bit sorry about her death, as I would about anyone dying, if it wasn’t for the fact that her children are now running Britain. Roll on independence.

    18. EdinScot says:

      Just a shame she won’t be around to witness Scotlands Independence!
      Beat me to it Ally!

      We are where we are  in Scotland thanks to her, so she did have her uses.  Pity we all had to suffer under her dictatorship though to get this far in our journey.  Lets learn the lessons from our past and build towards a social democratic country that cares for all its citizens unlike her greed is good concept that still lingers like a bad smell today.

    19. Craig M says:

      I was 12 in 1979. Well all I remember is my father being out of work, free school dinners as a result, hand me down clothes because we didn’t have money. An emasculated Scotland was the result and the glue that bound society, especially in England, dissolved. Get rich quick, I’m all right Jack and a casino economy. What a legacy and she gets the big send off as a result!

    20. Kenny Campbell says:

      I’m sure Craig like me you flogged your dinner ticket and bought chips, joining the trader generation….All I remember was my mates all leaving school and joining a job scheme. Virtually no one got a real job from school then.

    21. Ally says:

      When did you write this article Stu? Probably been hoarding memory on your PC for a while now!!

    22. megz says:

      ooh its a ceremonial funeral not a state one apparently

    23. YesYesYes says:

      Haven’t posted here for a while but if there was one event that was guaranteed to flush me out again, it was the death of this evil bitch.
      As someone who was politicised as a supporter of Scottish independence before Thatcher was elected leader of the Tories in 1975, I have lots of terrible memories of that lost ‘decade’ when she was in office (1979-90) and the war that she and her party waged against the poor, the dispossessed and the working class. I will never forgive her for as long as I live and I look forward now to making the journey to her grave so that I can spit on it and tell the rotting corpse that I hope it rots in hell.
      Thanks for the link to Elvis Costello. Along with Robert Wyatt’s ‘Shipbuilding’ it really did help to ease the pain of that awful decade for some of us:

    24. ianbrotherhood says:

      As Windsor Davies used to say, ‘Oh dear. ‘Ow sad. Never mind.’
      Wonder how long it’ll be before they actually plant her. Time enough for ordinary punters to apply for the required permits to organise their own send-off? Hyde Park won’t be big enough…should be able to get some big names for the free concert though, eh?…Elvis Costello must be up for it, and Primal Scream, Stone Roses, Oasis…and, let’s see, who else?

    25. Albalha says:

      I’ve been listening to both R4 and Radio Scotland coverage, to be fair haven’t heard the SNP stuff, and J Beattie is being more irreverent than R4, yes I realise it’s all relative, but just saying.
      Anyway the most bizarre for me so far comes from M Rifkind ….. when interviewing someone else Beattie asked about the poll tax and its introduction into Scotland a year early being a Thatcher mistake and why she was so disliked in Scotland ……. according to Rifkind it was not a Thatcher experiment, it was all down to the secretary of state for Scotland, George Younger, making a request to introduce it early as the restive natives in Scotland were up in arms about rates, in addition to Englad not being geared up administratively and well what could London do, dear, dear, nothing to do with Thatcher then!

    26. Famous15 says:

      Oh the irony that she died from a strike  Sarah Millican commented that many miners today discovered a talent for dancing!

    27. annie says:

      Just been reminded that when Margaret Thatcher was asked “what was your greatest achievement in government” she replied “Tony Blair”.

    28. Nairn says:

      This is going to be weird when I go into the office here in Alberta – it’s a big enough story that it’ll be all over the news here, so people will talk to me about it, but because they got Trudeau and Mulroney in the 80s and not Her, they’re not going to understand the severe adverse reaction I get from even the very mention if her name. How do you explain the depths of Thatcherism to people who didn’t experience it? I’m just going to seem like a guy being a dick about an old woman’s death, so I think my response is going to be – 
      “she was an extraordinary person who did extraordinary things. I just wish she’d done them somewhere else.”

    29. Linda's Back says:

      Alan Coichrane on BBC Radio Scotland with Labour’s old chestnut that SNP voted Thatcher into power. 
      I still believe that if Labour had implemented the Scottish Assembly YES vote in 1979 we would have won our independence in 1997 and built up a huge oil fund.
       it is also far too simplistic to blame the SNP for getting rid of the universally unpopular Callaghan Labour government in 1979. In fact the SNP Voting record in 1978/79  was with Labour 46.7%  and with Tories  20%
      Like Gordon Brown in 2008, Callaghan had a chance to go to the country in October 1978 but “bottled” it and following the Winter of Discontent with union led strikes and power cuts
      there was absolutely no chance of Labour winning a general election even if they had stayed on to the bitter end in October 1979.
      Despite the rigged referendum in March 1979 producing a yes vote for a Scottish Assembly the Labour government refused to implement the majority wishes of the Scottish people.
      The Liberals  formally ended the “pact” which had sustained Labour since 1977.
      On In March 28th 1979 the vital no confidence vote was lost through the absence of Sir Alfred Broughton, Labour MP for Batley, who was too ill to attend  and the unexpected non voting of two Irish republican MPs who normally supported Labour but felt that Labour had double crossed them on redrawing the political boundaries in Northern Ireland.
      In fact Gerry Fitt and Frank Maguire flew from Belfast to London expressly not to vote.
      Labour and 1979 Referendum
      Jim Murphy talks of the SNP’s rigged referendum,  well it will be much more honest than Labour’s 1979 referendum which counted dead voters as being against.
      When you read Jim Callaghan’s memoirs, “Time and Chance”, you will see that the then Prime Minister noted:
      “in his ( ie Michael Cox, Labour’s Chief Whip) view, the difficulty within the (Labour) Party, was much greater than any from the Scottish National Party, and the Whip’s judgement was that the government could not rely on the votes of Labour members from the north”
      i.e. Labour MP’s were prepared to vote down their own government, rather than support a Scottish Assembly.
      During the rigged Assembly referendum in 1979 most Labour MPs in Scotland did no campaigning and many were very hostile. In West Lothian for example Labour Party members were delivering NO leaflets and local Trade Union officials dumped the YES  YES leaflets. 

    30. Craig P says:

      My favourite song about Thatcherism is Momus’ haunting ‘Sex For the Disabled’:

    31. beachthistle says:

    32. ianbrotherhood says:

      Let’s not forget Jo Moore’s behaviour on 9/11 – let’s be extra superplus doublegood vigilant – e.g.

    33. muttley79 says:

      I do not feel happy, and will not gloat over the death of a democratically elected political leader.  However, I think she was a truly appalling democratically elected leader, pursuing policies designed to enrich a tiny minority of the population, both in Scotland and the UK, at the expense of the majority.  She ignored Home Rule for Scotland, and was not embarrassed by the lack of mandate that the Tories had to govern Scotland.  She created an underclass.  Thatcher helped to create a toxic anti-European ideology that UKIP are now exploiting to the full.  Indeed, the UK is heading out of the EU, and this will no doubt spur on UKIP et al in next months’ local elections in England. 
      She also oversaw the Big Bang in the City of London in 1986, where the deregulation of financial services occurred.  We had seen the consequences of this since 2008.  Thatcher smashed the Miners’ Strike in 1984-1985 by using the full weight of the State against working people.  She allowed the SYP to smear the dead and relatives of the 96 at Hillsborough.  Thatcher was an industrial vandal, and she destroyed the manufacturing sector in the UK, leaving the economy dangerously reliant on the City of London.  Her enduring legacy for me is creating a ‘rat race society’, where compassion, empathy have no place, and creating conditions where there is a ever growing gap between rich and poor.

    34. Norsewarrior says:

      There are already plenty of comments on the Telegraph attacking the ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’ and ‘left wing scum’ who are delighted at her death.

      The upcoming eulogising of her could well drive more people to vote yes, but its important that there isn’t too much glee and triumphalism at her death, as the Rev says ‘glorifying in the death of an individual is unseemly’, no matter who that individual is. 

      And its a bit of a myth that everyone in Scotland always hated her – the Tories got 21 Scottish MPs in 1983 – although by the end of her time in power, particuarly after the poll tax, many did.

    35. Training Day says:

      One thing should be remembered today – Thatcher’s poll tax. That tax was imposed on Scotland as a social experiment and many people – myself included – were hounded and threatened by Labour councils – Labour councils – for every farthing they could extort from the unemployed (as I was at that time). Labour’s complicity in the imposition of that iniquitous tax should never, ever be forgotten.

    36. panda paws says:

      Apparently Iain Duncan Smith is saying she was the reason he got into politics. Something else to “thank” her for

    37. Memphisto says:

      There is a certain irony that there is a milk ration story today

    38. The Man in the Jar says:

      I can’t get the tune to “The Sun Has Got its Hat On” out of my head!

    39. Bunter says:

      Havent heard a bad word about her on BBC1, but havent yet heard a Scottish voice. Lots of fawning and revisionist nonsense though. No mention of the big bang in the 80s, deregulation of the banks and a direct link with that to the financial disaster in 2008.
      She is the one to blame for de industrialisation and all the eggs in the city of London basket, oh and dont forget, ”No such thing as society”.

    40. Doug Daniel says:

      Cath – “Can’t raise myself to give a fuck, frankly. She was terrible, but her legacy lives on in UK politics, largely in New Labour. The new Tories she spawned are way to the right of her and far more nasty, as well as being entirely of the elite.”
      That’s kind of how I feel. I’m tweeting and retweeting stuff that’s basically gloating about her dying, but it feels hollow. I thought I would feel more overjoyed than I am at her death, but you can’t stop thinking about the fact that it changes nothing. She was a talisman for the breed of bastards that her ideology spawned, but nothing more. This isn’t like the movies where killing the head vampire makes the rest drop dead – her evil lives on in the bodies of Cameron, Osborne, Gove, IDS and others.
      But one thing I can’t be arsed with is the folk on Twitter who are going “uuurrggh, let’s not stoop to her level” or “uuuurrrgggh let’s not forget she was still a human being with a family” etc. Fuck that. She made conscious decisions that condemned millions to poverty and death, and she did it without the slightest hint of giving a fuck. We don’t judge other countries when they rejoice in the deaths of their evil despotic rulers like Saddam and Gaddafi, so why should we lecture our own folk who genuinely feel like they’ve lived to see the day the devil incarnate has died?
      I just kind of wish she’d lived to see Scotland becoming independent. But as Stu tweeted, perhaps the funeral and the media fawning we’ll see as a result will be a game-changing moment.

    41. Norsewarrior says:

      This is a good quote, from the Independence article that the Rev posted a link to earlier.

      “But while Thatcher-hate is understandable, it is futile. Celebrating the prospect of her death has become an admittedly macabre substitute for the failure to defeat Thatcherism. The Iron Lady will die knowing her legacy is stronger than ever. It will only be worth celebrating when Thatcherism is finally purged from this country, and a Britain run in the interests of working people is built. Then we really can rejoice.”

    42. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Oh the irony that she died from a strike”

      Um, from a stroke

    43. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “When did you write this article Stu? Probably been hoarding memory on your PC for a while now!!”

      Nope, knocked it up on spec.

    44. Peter Sneddon says:

      Hope she suffered!

    45. Dal Riata says:

      “Well I hope I don’t die too soonI pray the lord my soul to save
      Oh I’ll be a good boy, I’m trying so hard to behave
      Because there’s one thing I know, I’d like to live
      Long enough to savour
      That’s when they finally put you in the ground
      I’ll stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down”
      Tramp The Dirt Down – Elvis Costello

    46. Jamie Arriere says:

      Favourite Thatcher song by Elvis Costello :
      Genius vitriol to the tune of ‘Isn’t She Lovely’. I wonder if he’s putting his boots on as we speak….
      I have to say that I’m not punching the air like I thought I would – she was a frail demented old lady, and since I’m caring for my mum in a similar condition, I do feel sorry for her children. She did not drain the compassion out of me.
      And I have to say also that if wasn’t for her time in power, and her complete misjudgement of Scotland, would we currently be on the path we are?

    47. LeeMacD says:

      Why’s she getting a state funeral? Surely her remains should be disposed of by a private company. Bloody benefit scrounger!

    48. panda paws says:

      Over at BBC there are articles about Thatcher and Ireland and Thatcher and Wales but not yet one about Thatcher and Scotland.  Who will have the b%lls to write that one in light of next year’s referendum?

    49. muttley79 says:

      Is she getting a state funeral as there appears to be conflicting reports?  I see Cameron is coming back and is likely to milk it as much as he can…

    50. heraldnomore says:

      If you’ve just taken lunch, don’t visit Guido yet

    51. ewen says:

      I was 13 in 79. I saw friends leaving school on to yop and yts schemes. I saw the docks in Govan being filled in, Ravenscraig, Linwood, the sermon on the mound, the loadsa money culture down south, poll tax, signing on and a boom and bust economy.
      All ? hear and see on the MSM today is revisionism. She was devisive and still is. Let them have their jingoistic ceremonial funeral. It will push many into the Yes camp.
      I just hope they have ensured she is actually dead and won,t be coming back.

    52. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If you’ve just taken lunch, don’t visit Guido yet

      Good. Keeps the rest of their poison off-air for a while.

    53. ianbrotherhood says:

      A fitting tribute would be to bury the Bedroom Tax along with her.

    54. muttley79 says:

      Guardian does not appear to be letting people make comments on their Thatcher coverage!!

    55. Albalha says:

      @Rev Stu
      Just heard what G Brown had to say, worth reprinting if anyone is any doubt that Labour is any better, sycophantic and sickening. 
      On the funeral, what’s the reasoning, other than she requested to have the service at St Paul’s?
      Bloody outrage, why her and no other PM?

    56. Rod Mac says:

      Did you notice how Scotsman headline on death of Thatcher?
      Margaret Thatcher dies at 87      Sponsored by Lairds Foods
      Don’t know who Lairds foods are ,bu you have to buy their goods now   

    57. Albalha says:

      Yes I know since Churchill, but that was a war thing.

    58. Johnnypict says:

      Nearly 4000 people signed it already.

    59. orkers says:

      She was an ignorant, horrible woman and though I wouldn’t normally celebrate the death of anyone, in her case I will make an exception.
      I always promised myself a glass of bubbly when I heard she was dead, but unfortunately I don’t have any.
      I hope the devil inserts a pineapple where the sun don’t shine, every other day.

    60. Ray says:

      Ken Livingstone via Guardian rolling coverage:

      “She created today’s housing crisis. She created the banking crisis. And she created the benefits crisis. It was her government that started putting people on incapacity benefit rather than register them as unemployed because the Britain she inherited was broadly full employment. She decided when she wrote off our manufacturing industry that she could live with two or three million unemployed, and the benefits bill, the legacy of that, we are struggling with today. In actual fact, every real problem we face today is the legacy of the fact that she was fundamentally wrong.”

    61. handclapping says:

      Winston knew he could be wrong and got a State funeral.
      Maggie knew she was right and got dementia.
      If only Tatcherism was dead too.

    62. lumilumi says:

      The death of a person is always a sad occurence, at least to the family and friends, and I can’t rejoice in the death of anybody. However, I’m following the BBC’s live coverage on the death of this old (87 yrs) woman, and the waves of adulation and airbrushing of history is sickening. Just listened to Nick Robinson’s fawning and adoring piece. [insert boak smiley here].
      I was struck by this quote from the BBC live text coverage:
      “On where she went wrong, ex-Daily Telegraph editor Charles Moore says she treated senior colleagues badly towards the end and although she was often attacked for dismantling the welfare state, it was unfinished business which is still being dealt with today.”
      (my emphasis)
      There you have it. The future of the UK. To finish the dismantling of the welfare state. Scotland has a chance to get out, the people just have to vote YES.

    63. Norsewarrior says:

      “Just heard what G Brown had to say, worth reprinting if anyone is any doubt that Labour is any better, sycophantic and sickening”

      To be fair I think that’s a wee bit harsh, all Brown did was express his condolences to her family and talk about her “determination and resilience” and “the strength of her convictions”.

      It doesn’t sound much different from Salmond’s own statement which has just been posted on the Scottish Government’s website: 

      “”Margaret Thatcher was a truly formidable prime minister whose policies defined a political generation. No doubt there will now be a renewed debate about the impact of that legacy. Today, however, the proper reaction should be respect and condolences to her family.”

    64. Albalha says:

      Agree totally with Ken however what he doesn’t add is that New Labour failed miserably to do anything about it.

    65. velofello says:

      Julian Assange of Wikileaks, accused of sexual assault by two women he apparently slept with is being provided with safe haven against extradition by the Ecaudor government in its London embassy. UK police are on standby watch to nab him if he attempts to leave the embassy building. Why is the Ecaudor government providing safe haven to Assange? Why is the UK government acting in this way? 
      Thatcher, many years back provided UK sponsored hospitality to General Pinochet of Chile, a less than wholesome individual accused of brutality against his own people. “Too ill to travel to Chile to face his accusers” opined Thatcher if I remember. He did eventually return once the heat was off and miraculously recovered his failing health. Why did the UK government act in that way?
      Assange seems to have been a pain in the butt to governments.
      Pinochet was quite a bit more than a pain in the butt to people of Chile.
      Thatcher? She, possibly a pawn in the elite’s game, caused much suffering to the ordinary people of the UK.

    66. Jamie Arriere says:

      Just heard the BBC mention details of part of her funeral procession. I wasn’t really listening as I’m not terribly interested – but I did hear that it passes through Aldwych…..and quite right too!

    67. Norsewarrior says:

      “Why is the UK government acting in this way?”

      Because they’ve got an extradition treaty with Sweden.

    68. John Böttcher says:

      I read an essay on Thatcher and her impact on culture a few weeks ago, and I really agree with the couple of passages quoted below – that there were two Thatchers – and the most powerful one is well and truly alive for all to see.
      “Thatcher was the first Prime Minister of whom it could be said that the modern media environment was her native tongue. Others used the media, yes, but Thatcher as a politician did not exist separate from it. Her media image was a fundamental part of her entire politics. There was, in a very real sense, no difference between her leadership and the press coverage of her leadership. She may not have thought that society existed, but she certainly believed in the existence of the mass media like no Prime Minister before her.
      The fact that Thatcher was so media savvy caused her to be a more diffuse phenomenon rather than a personal one. In a very real sense Thatcher was an always-present force – a mental phenomenon rather than a purely material one. Of course people reacted against her in a way that did not quite make sense for reacting against a person. She wasn’t just a person. She was a brand. An ideology. A sigil, if you like.”

    69. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I hope the devil inserts a pineapple where the sun don’t shine, every other day.”

      Every OTHER day? You bloody liberals.

    70. Albalha says:

      The New Labour boys’ reaction
      G Brown said ……
      ‘Sarah [his wife] and I have sent messages to Lady Thatcher’s son Mark and daughter Carol, offering our condolences to them and to the Thatcher family and commemorating Lady Thatcher’s many decades of service to our country.
      ‘She will be remembered not only for being Britain’s first female prime minister and holding the office for 11 years, but also for the determination and resilience with which she carried out all her duties throughout her public life. Even those who disagreed with her never doubted the strength of her convictions and her unwavering belief in Britain’s destiny in the world.
      ‘During our time in Number 10, Sarah and I invited Lady Thatcher to revisit Downing Street and Chequers – something which we know she enjoyed very much. But it was sad for her and her family that she lost her devoted husband Denis almost 10 years ago and that she was unable to enjoy good health in the later years of her retirement.’
      And T Blair said …..
      ‘Margaret Thatcher was a towering political figure. Very few leaders get to change not only the political landscape of their country but of the world.
      ‘Margaret was such a leader. Her global impact was vast. And some of the changes she made in Britain were, in certain respects at least, retained by the 1997 Labour government, and came to be implemented by governments around the world.
      ‘As a person she was kind and generous spirited and was always immensely supportive to me as prime minister although we came from opposite sides of politics.
      ‘Even if you disagreed with her as I did on certain issues and occasionally strongly, you could not disrespect her character or her contribution to Britain’s national life. She will be sadly missed.’

    71. the rough bounds says:

      I’m not sure about all the ‘Ad Hominem’ stuff. The fact is that Margaret Thatcher would never have got away with all the things she did were it not for the compliance of  the people in the south-east of England. All she did was to reflect their views and put them into action. Remember that she was re-elected.
      It’s the same with Alex Salmond and the SNP. Alex isn’t solely responsible for the SNP being where it is today. The SNP and its leadership is merely reflecting a sea change in the culture that has taken place within the Scottish populace who had become estranged from the culture of the populace in the south of the island.
      Margaret Thatcher didn’t invent ‘Thatcherism’. It was southern English ‘Thatcherism’ that invented Margaret Thatcher.

    72. Scaraben says:

      I thought that the news of Thatcher’s death would make me happy, but it does not. It reminds me of all the harm that she did, and it is depressing to think about that.
      I have thought of myself as Scottish for as long as I can remember, and ‘British’ only for official purposes, but the first time I was really ashamed to be in any way British was when the Belgrano was sunk outside the exclusion zone which Thatcher’s government had declared. I have always strongly suspected that she deliberately failed to take steps to deter the Argentine invasion so that she could have her own little war to whip up jingoism. She even sent an encouraging signal to the Argentines at a time when the crisis was already developing by withdrawing the only Royal Navy ship in the area, even if it was a survey vessel. Unfortunately the resulting conflict did push her poll ratings up considerably.
      I will not mourn her, nor will I mourn Cameron or any of his cronies if I am fortunate enough to outlive any of them. They have all done far too much harm for that.
      Unfortunately, she was successful.

    73. The Man in the Jar says:

      I think that a fitting tribute would be to have a “Spitting Image, Thatcher Special” A re-run of all the old Thatcher items there must be hours of footage to choose from. Just to remind those of us old enough and to educate younger people.
      I still laugh at “What about the vegetables?”

    74. Rod Mac says:

      Norsewarrior nothing changes with you ,no matter which site you are on ,always having a dig at SNP or Alex Salmond whenever ,and however you can.
      Fortunately on this site you will not get away with the shenanigans you do on Scotsman site.

    75. Norsewarrior says:

      Salmond’s reaction seems acceptable enough, he talks about “respect and condolences to her family” and calls her a “truly formidable prime minister whose policies defined a political generation”. 

      It’s what current and former political leaders have to do – it wouldn’t look very dignified or statesmanlike if they started attacking and abusing a dead pensioner.

    76. tartanfever says:

      the rough bounds:

      Margaret Thatcher didn’t invent ‘Thatcherism’. It was southern English ‘Thatcherism’ that invented Margaret Thatcher.
      I disagree, maybe you could explain why then she had major run ins with nearly every single one of her chancellors as they differed over fundamental policy issues and had numerous ‘bust ups’ with all her cabinet members over the years ? Explain why half her cabinet advised against war with Argentina ? Explain why cabinet ministers and members of the Tories were at odds with her all the time over her policies ? Explain why, in the end, her own cabinet booted her out ?
      She had her own agenda and she served it up regardless of what members of her own party thought, and she fought openly with them to get her way. Her ideas were her ideas and she was most likely influenced by a handful of  characters, not a broad sweep of ‘southern England’

    77. Norsewarrior says:

      “Norsewarrior nothing changes with you ,no matter which site you are on ,always having a dig at SNP or Alex Salmond whenever ,and however you can”

      What on earth are you talking about?! I won’t deny criticising the SNP and Salmond previously, but in what possible way have I ‘had a dig’ at either of them today?! 

    78. The Man in the Jar says:

      A very fitting tribute!
      Please watch.

    79. Embradon says:

      I am sorry to see her go now, I wish she could have held on a year or so more.
      To quote the estimable Ian Hamilton  QC’s blog “May Mrs Thatcher have a long life and a state funeral just a little before our vote on independence”.

    80. Dal Riata says:

      The divisiveness and disassociation Thatcher caused to society is felt still. What we would probably find, should any study be done, would be that the hatred for Thatcher would increase incrementally the further north one goes from the City of London, reflecting the destruction that her government wrought over the industries of north England and Scotland.
      I’m pretty sure those in the south-east of England are not aware of the depth of hatred felt for Thatcher in communities throughout present-UK who suffered, and still do, from having their livelihoods, income and feeling of self-worth taken away from them for the sake of Tory right-wing ideology.
      A piece of anecdotal evidence, perhaps, of Thatcher’s ‘legacy’ in Scotland: I’ve received a number of texts today from friends and associates, varying from those who are Rangers fanatics in every way, to those who are ‘doing very well, thank you’, to those who are scraping to get by on the dole…and each and every one of them is glad the witch is gone! And I’m quite sure that is not just coincidental!

    81. Rod Mac says:

      Her demise has saved IDS a great deal of embarrassment ,her of course being a disabled benefit scrounging pensioner.
      Apparently ATOS had found her fit for work and she was due to commence work training at a Poundland in the east end of London on Monday week.
      There are of course no Poundlands in her area of residence and Job centre would not reimburse her travel expenses.
      Still not to worry IDS lots of  other JSA and disabled you can mobilise for your Corporate friends to ensure they have free labour

    82. The Man in the Jar says:

      How prophetic was spitting image. This was 26 years ago.

    83. Dal Riata says:

      Can’t quite find the words to express your joy? Unsure where the party is? Find out here!:

    84. Martin says:

      I just registered here, because it seems the most sane place today. I’ll have more to say about independence another day, but today I think the argument for independence, and against the scum that inhabit the Labour party in 2012 is immensely bolstered.
      Example 1:
      This is a labour MP. A LABOUR MP:
      “Yet, from this distance, we forget just how messy and difficult was life in 1970s Britain. Millions of days lost to constant strikes in the public and private sector; living standards dropping; the three day week – the sick man of Europe. Something needed to be done. Regardless of whether you agreed or disagreed with her analysis, she certainly stood up for what she believed in – she certainly got something done. She had guts and conviction – qualities which are much needed today.
      Nobody needs to tell me how divisive her politics were on the ground. Tottenham in the mid-1980s was often not a fun place to be. Yet nobody can deny that she had a vision, as well as the strength and courage to see that vision become a reality. Those qualities are to be admired, regardless of the disagreements we may rightly have with the effects of her policies on the people we stand up for. ”
      So Pol Pot, Stalin, Mohammed Atta and (I fear Godwin’s law here) Adolf Hitler are all to be admired, because they too had a vision and as well as the strength and courage to see that vision become reality. I fear for the poor constituents of this man, to be living with a representative who sees power as the ultimate aim, and outcome as secondary.
      I think we should be copying down everything that’s said today by these monsters and make sure everyone with a memory of living under Thatcher (a demographic that currently leans against independence) is reminded of them next year.

    85. Morag says:

      Here’s another one – you have to go to about 3 minutes 40 seconds to get it.

    86. Dal Riata says:

      Great article by Glenn Geenwald in the Guardian. It let’s you know exactly what is going on right now. Here is the first paragraph from that piece:
      “News of Margaret Thatcher‘s death this morning instantly and predictably gave rise to righteous sermons on the evils of speaking ill of her. British Labour MP Tom Watson decreed: “I hope that people on the left of politics respect a family in grief today.” Following in the footsteps of Santa Claus, Steve Hynd quickly compiled a list of all the naughty boys and girls “on the left” who dared to express criticisms of the dearly departed Prime Minister, warning that he “will continue to add to this list throughout the day”. Former Tory MP Louise Mensch, with no apparent sense of irony, invoked precepts of propriety to announce: “Pygmies of the left so predictably embarrassing yourselves, know this: not a one of your leaders will ever be globally mourned like her.””
      So there you have it, Labour MPs cowardly in voicing a response to the death of Thatcher cowed by right-wing Tory MPs using her death to shout down and abuse those who would voice any dissent!!

    87. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Interesting to note that the LibDems, Plaid and every other MP in Westminster including across the board from Ulster  voted to bring the Labour Government down yet the liars are portraying this as act of the tiny SNP group.
      The SNP actually told Labour it would vote against if it did not implement legislation for a Scottish parliament and were true to their word. 
      Thatcher in power was the best recruiting officer for the SNP

    88. Iain says:

      I haven’t seen this picture on the TV yet but apparently CNN were using it!

    89. Inbhir Anainn says:

      How it all came to be The Night The Government Fell 34 years ago on 28th March 1979,  James Callaghan’s Labour Government lost a confidence motion by one vote (311-310) and was forced to call an early general election that would sweep Margaret Thatcher to power.

    90. tartanfever says:

      George Galloway tweeted earlier :
      ‘Thatcher described Nelson Mandela as a “terrorist”. I was there. I saw her lips move. May she burn in the hellfires.’
      Add to that Thatcher’s support of fascist dictator Pinochet and I wonder if The Scotsman, the tory loving newspaper will reverse it’s ‘fascist SNP’ story from yesterday and report on some real fascists. After all, Alex Salmond has got nothing on the Thatcher/Pinochet tag team.

    91. Macart says:

      For the life of me I want to do the decent thing, turn the other cheek and feel sorry for someones loss. But so much misery, division and despair was introduced by that person’s actions, I just don’t have it in me to have a sympathetic thought.

    92. Morag says:

      There’s stuff on TV now would make a horse vomit.  I need to look out a good DVD.

    93. Tattie-boggle says:

      just seen this on twitter
      Image of 2 dead tories who, according to themselves, did much for vulnerable children in Britain …

    94. muttley79 says:

      This is from the Guardian’s editorial:
      “Her legacy is of public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed, which together shackle far more of the human spirit than they ever set free.”

    95. lumilumi says:

      I’ve been following the BBC online coverage on Margaret Thatcher’s death. Very adulatory and fawning.
      One thing I found amusing is that the BBC reinforced the myth that she ended the cold war. Now, outside Britain, in the wider world, it’s generally thought that it was Mikhael Gorbachev who made it happen. Ronnie and his poodle Maggie happened to be the leaders on the other side. But none of that would have happened if it wasn’t for “Gorby”.
      Thatcher certainly will not be forgotten, she was a remarkable PM. Though, I think her legacy, her name, will be forever remembered for her cruel social policies, which were willinglingly continued by New Labour and now ConLibs. She truly changed the nation… for the worse.

    96. tartanfever says:

      lumilumi – lots of myths surrounding the cold war – the Americans claim they brought down the Soviet Union, as did the Afghans and the Brits.
      The reality is that the Soviet Union collapsed from the inside. It was falling apart with poor infrastructure, political corruption on a massive scale, lack of investment and institutional mis-management. It was only a matter of time before it collapsed. 

    97. DMW42 says:

      “Blair’s ‘New Labour’ government, ironically, became part of her formidable legacy. The once socialist Labourites moved to the centre with echoes of Thatcherism – from preserving Britain’s nuclear deterrent to telling single mothers on welfare to find work”.
      On Fox News FFS. Does that not just say it all.

    98. Midgehunter says:

      For me it’s a stroke of luck – and that’s not meant as a pun.

    99. CameronB says:

      It would indeed be churlish to gloat at the passing of a frail, sick pensioner, but Thatcher was not just any ordinary pensioner. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, she didn’t seem to have much compassion for anything other than the interests of capital. Did she?
      I can’t be bothered going in to all the politics, but philosophies don’t necessarily die just because the figurehead passes on. The King is dead, long live the King.
      I won’t look to get my taps out, until after the cremation though.

    100. Jiggsbro says:

      The once socialist Labourites moved to the centre
      They moved to the centre after the centre had been moved to the right.

    101. Appleby says:

      I just remembered – didn’t someone on the comments here say very recently that one thing that could tip the balance would be a lavish state funeral of Thatcher and that she must be close to death at her ripe old age of 88?
      I hope that person had a bet on…

    102. David says:

      “They moved to the centre after the centre had been moved to the right.”
      Jiggsbro, I am not sure if you meant to, but to me you have captured the key legacy of the Thatcher governments in this sentence. I think there is one major difference in the shift in the political centre she achieved as opposed to the previous two such shifts in the 20th century – moves of the centre towards the left achieved by the Asquith and Atlee administrations. The previous moves of the centre of politics were accepted across the whole of the UK, whilst the Thatcher move has only really taken root in England.
      Perhaps that is why in the original article you remark ” That country died in 1979″ – or maybe consensus on where the centre of politics had died? It took the Labour party 18 years to get it’s head round this, and even then I believe they missed the fundamental point (and still do) that the political centre in England is in a very different place to the political centre that exists in Scotland. I am pretty sure that they are not the only ones at that.
      I heard Donald Dewar being quoted as describing Margaret Thatcher as the “midwife of devolution” on the radio today. Maybe that will turn out to be an understatement. I for one hope so.

    103. Keef says:

      Can’t mourn. Won’t mourn.

    104. Tamson says:

      It’s not particularly a moment for celebration IMO.
      The day Thatcherism dies is far, far more important. Let’s start working towards it now.

    105. Indion says:

      Rev Stu @ 1:07pm on 8 Apr led off this ‘We’re not sad‘ post on the day when he said someone on Twitter just put it better than he could:

      “Thatcher is dead but Thatcherism is very much alive. Can’t we swap?”

      Yes, sharp and shorter, but both to the point that now needs to be brought home and broadcast: the real proceeds of Adam Smith’s hidden hand of providence were not for trousering by squandering political, corporate, banking and other syndicated like mafia wankers, but for long-term investment in our economy to be realised in a meaningful, worthwhile way.

      But even now the predatory leech of neoliberalism is still alive and kicking out to find its feet in the mire of our drained livelihoods. A global vampire, it remains a bloodsucker on all humanity. It needs to be pinned down, its beating heart staked through, its quivering body drawn, quartered and pulverised to dust and fed to its acolytes, stripped of all awards and assets and flung in dungeons of disgrace under heaps of opprobrium, never to be let loose again.

      Then what? If not the UK’s neoliberal solution to its neoliberal problem, what indebted future do we swap the past and present for?

      If we know the how and why of what went wrong, what then is the why and how of what we can get right?

      A democratic exit gate beckons, and not just for us as an example for reunion between what are yet to be our nation states: ie in our owning as we, all the people rather than being owned by some people as subjects sans our own sovereignty.

      What political economy makes sense to cross the great divide of NO to more of the duopoly’s same old same old in favour of YES as best we can unfold and enact to make whole on our behalf?

      Answers by autumn 2013 are on the way we’re told with reason I don’t doubt the cause of being our own democracy.

      Meanwhile – with little time left to imprint our fullness for fulfilment on them – what suggested solutions to our democratic and economic deficits and debts do we owe to our society in communities of families, friends and fellow folk?

      Speak up and out where you will be heard people; it’s your future and that of your children’s children that’s at stake.

      In her passing, the Times editorial ‘ A Woman of Simple Truths’ today ended with this these words: ” Where there was despair, she brought hope. ”

      I hazard little in suggesting these last words have been proven woefully wrong by her own Conservative and her heir in Blair and Brown’s New Labour party fatal letting loose the financially parasitic neoliberal virus. The sentence should be:

      ” Where there was despair, she may have thought she brought hope, but only for the many for whom it did not bring misery, before seeing their hopes too dashed and trashed again. ”

      And again, as muttley79 above @ 7:51pm on 8 Apr drew attention to from yesterday’s Guardian’s editorial:

      “Her legacy is of public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed, which together shackle far more of the human spirit than they ever set free.”

    106. Indion says:

      Jiggsbro @ 9:35pm on 8 Apr said of ‘ The once socialist Labourites moved to the centre ‘
      ” They moved to the centre after the centre had been moved to the right. ”

      Too right!

    107. ianbrotherhood says:

      I’m using this stat to try and keep it simple, raise awareness of all the stuff you allude to above:
      The amount of unpaid (avoided, evaded, or uncollected) tax in the UK per annum is approx £120 billion. If captured, that would allow the creation of 4.8 million new jobs paying an average 25k.
      (Has anyone ever attempted to calculate how much cash has, in effect, been ‘disappeared’ from the UK since, say, the mid-80’s?)

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