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Wings Over Scotland

We’re keeping this one

Posted on June 12, 2016 by

The Prime Minister with Andrew Marr this morning:

So it’s great to be a small oil-rich independent nation? Who knew, eh?

(The actual population of Norway is about 5.2m – almost identical to Scotland’s – rather than 4m, incidentally. But that’s not the real issue here.)

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    1. 12 06 16 10:56

      We’re keeping this one | speymouth

    329 to “We’re keeping this one”

    1. RogueCoder says:

      But… but… but… surely it VOLATILE!

    2. Holebender says:

      But… but… but what about the UK’s broad shoulders?

    3. Couldn’t believe my ears. Scandalous

    4. Alex Smith says:

      Two-faced, pig poking ba574rd!

    5. NiallD says:

      Who would have thought being a small oil rich nation was good. Surely Norway have a £15 billion black hole hidden somewhere they are not telling us about……
      What?? They managed their oil resource during the boom times!

    6. Shagpile says:

      If you are a compulsive liar you need a good memory, well there’s the proof.

    7. Anagach says:

      As much oil ans “we” do and only a few million people – that makes an enourmous difference – thats a changed tune. Thought it was a burden.

    8. heedtracker says:

      “They have as much oil as we do” is pretty accurate. England and Norway have invested it in England and Norway too. Not in exact same ways but England’s not Norway.

    9. Mick DIAMOND says:

      Aye but the norwegians arent, too wee, too poor, or too stupid. They are genetically programmed to make political decisions.

    10. Boy, did David Cameron drop the ball there! Talk about an own goal. Sadly, most self loathing,Vichy Scots, will continue to believe that oil is somehow bad for Scotland but good for the UK. Let’s hope La Sturgeon picks up on this clanger and uses it as a brickbat with which to beat the yoonies!

    11. john oliver says:

      Is it just me or did he nearly say Norway has an enormous (oil fund)

    12. Stoker says:

      Alex Smith wrote: “Two-faced, pig poking ba574rd!”

      I’ll settle for that one!

    13. John Melrose says:

      Exactly, I can’t think of it just now, but isn’t there other country, comparable in size, that has oil reserves .. mmm, it’ll come to me! ?

    14. Maria Brown says:

      So, let me get this right, according to Dave it’s the 60 million population part of the UK that has the oil wealth. Where does that leave the 5 million in whose waters it predominantly lies? Does that mean it’s England’s oil?

    15. Stoker says:


    16. Neil Cook says:

      This clip will never be shown again by the Beeb, Beeb Scotland will demand it be deleted and measures taken to remove all traces from the internet!

      Better get it on your memory sticks as its going to disappear

    17. cearc says:

      Norway also aren’t dependent on electricity imports from the EU.

    18. Papadox says:

      Cameron hung by his own petard. Mervin King stated (after the referendum) of course Scotland would be allowed to use the £. The U.K. Pensions are amongst the lowest in Europe.

      WESTMINSTER/ESTABLISHMENT a bunch of total liars and con artists, lies broadcast by the EBC and MSM to terrify the elderly.

      Posted this at end of previous thread but think it is more appropriate here.

    19. ephemeraldeception says:

      The mask really slipped there and with Marr “I agree” 🙂

      “They have an enormous…They have as much oil as we do”

      He was about to say they have an enormous oil fund. Plus they have as much much oil reserves as we (UK) do.

      This interview certainly needs to be kept and used as proof of the years of Unionist lies and deception.

      Someone from the SNP should forùely state that “The UK PM and Andrew Marr today agree that Norways success is primaly due to UK level oil volume and benefits of a smaller population”.

      UK PM Uturn on economics of Scottish independence.

    20. galamcennalath says:

      @Maria Brown

      “Does that mean it’s England’s oil?”

      You better believe it. Greater England rules the waves, and our oil under them.

      Cameron let his pig out of his poke there, eh?

    21. Dorothy Devine says:

      I’m with Alex Smith – succinct and accurate.

    22. dramfineday says:

      I’m not surprised you’re going to keep that one?

    23. Smallaxe says:


    24. bobajock says:

      My jaw dropped ..

    25. Spikethedee says:

      This should be brought up by every SNP, Green, RISE, Solidarity politician at every opportunity for the foreseeable future. Bare-faced hypocrisy, not even the slightest awareness of how he was using exactly the opposite idea less than two years ago and it was just casually tossed into the conversation as if it were a minor point that could be glossed over.

    26. woosie says:

      Brexit leading lights don’t seem to be saying ” that’s not what you said during indyref “.

      Same show, the horrid Baroness Kennedy was extremely rude to the two other guests; not letting them finish a sentence while ranting over Marr when he tried to shut her up. One thing about these “embarrassed to be Scots” is that they’re generally people we’re not proud of either!

      BTW, didn’t miss her mention of “British” fans fighting in France!

    27. Fear not were building up a great arsenal of ammunition in readiness for the next referendum, when stay together side say this that and anything else, weel have the evidence to the contrary. What better to have a prime minister contradict all their nay saying. We will win the next one, we will be independent.

    28. heedtracker says:

      Where does that leave the 5 million in whose waters it predominantly lies? Does that mean it’s England’s oil?”

      No. It means that for about 40 years, UK oil and gas hard cash revenue’s have been spent and invested in England, big stuff like Thatcher’s mass unemployed in the beginning and massive ongoing English transport infrastructure spends.

      England then sends its scrounger scotland region what it thinks is an appropriate amount, in their Barnett generosity.

    29. woosie says:

      And another thing…..

      Caught that bloodsucker Clegg on Sky News. Saying to the british public ” forget party politics, this is much more important” then managing to have a pop at Salmond and Sturgeon, who are actually on his side!

      “Lib Dems got 1m more votes than SNP!”

      That waste of space would have ruined my Sunday, but for plucky little Russia’s defiance in the face of the world’s foremost soccer superpower!

    30. Kenzie says:

      I think it might be a wee while before we see the rude Helena Kennedy on the Marr show again.

    31. Bob Mack says:

      If you didn’t laugh you would cry.

    32. louis.b.argyll says:

      ..because next time we’ll be quoting ‘former’ prime minister…

    33. msean says:

      Well, there you go,who would ever have thought a small country with “the have as much oil as we do” would be a viable state.

    34. msean says:

      *Should read ‘they’

    35. HandandShrimp says:

      Rather than keep it can we print it in foot high letters and nail it to Lord Darling’s forehead?

    36. Breeks says:

      So 4 million people can turn a set amount of oil into a multi billion oil fund, but 60 million people can turn the same amount of oil into a multi trillion deficit.

      If we, and forgive me, I mean the UK “we”, were merely on parr with the Norwegians, then all things being equal, shouldn’t we have 60million ÷ 4 million = 15, er yeah, shouldn’t we still have 1/15 of a multi billion oil fund?

      I mean we both started out with the same chip supper, just ours is feeding 60 rather than theirs feeding 4. We all still get at least one chip, but maybe just a nibble of the fish. The bit I don’t understand is how the Norwegians turned their fish supper into gold and are nowadays building their own fishing fleet to harvest their own fish suppers, while we’ve managed to land ourselves paying for the mortgage on a seedy and run down chip shop which was closed down in the 80’s and personally bulldozed by Maggie Thatcher and the site sold to a property developer.

      I know, its these foreigners not playing by the rules, so lets keep it British. So based on the UK figures, why the hell don’t the 4 million Norwegians have 1/15 of 3 trillion pound deficit? Just what the hell do they think they are they playing at?

    37. Effijy says:

      And there we have it direct from the lips of the £Millionair Pig Shagger, We, which means England as defined by him quoting Circa England’s population, has an enormous amount of oil, as much as “we” do.

      So although all the oil is in Scottish waters, it is now officially stolen for England.

      This of course proves that the scumbag is an out and out Liar throughout the Scottish referendum.

      I travel Europe and the world extensively and can never get my head around why the price of petrol is higher is Scotland than in all the countries that have no oil.

      Why unlike others have we no oil fund?

      The answer seems to be that the profits are all for the corporate giants and their rich friends who own the Westminster Politicians and the UK media.

      With this 45 year long financial bonus, you would have thought that a civilised nation would take care of its Senior Citizens, and yet the UK has one of the lowest
      pensions in Europe?

      Mr Pig lover Cameron tries to scare that Brexit would mean
      poor value Pension on leaving?
      He has delivered that right here and right now and it is all on top of the £10 Billion Gordon Brown stole from private pensions and the Tory quest to extend the retirement age to 70, and eventually not to pay a pension at all.

    38. Macart says:

      OH Jings! 😮

      He’ll come to regret saying that.

      That is the howler of all howlers from Camo.

    39. Dr Jim says:

      As David Cameron slowly dies on National Television with facial balm sliding down his enhanced tanned face with the realisation that Brexit has won the argument written in his eyes, Andrew Marr says: “You’re basically arguing vote remain or the puppy gets it” I fell from the sofa in a paroxysm of guffaws, and along with the oil blunder, he has just written his epitaph if he loses, and his resignation if he wins

      Yesterday I said the Tories wouldn’t be able to employ these arguments on Scotland next time round, now I don’t think they’ll even put up a fight because they know nobody will trust them

      If Brexit occurs (probably when) and Scotland calls for a quick Referendum while this issue in the Tory party is still live I can see a substantial majority for YES just like John Major predicted and basically implied who could blame us

    40. Chic McGregor says:

      Lies and State tactics.

    41. Marie Clark says:

      I agree with Alec Smith, good description of the old pig shagger.

      What a total about face from the referendum. I distinctly remember being told by bitter thegither, that a’ this ile. was a bad thing for a wee nation like Scotland. Whit chinged a wonner?

      Is this perhaps a man trying tae cover his erse and hing ontae his joab?

    42. mealer says:

      OK.But just because Norway can be fabulously wealthy doesn’t mean that Scotland could be.Isnt it time that we pressed unionists to explain exactly what it is about the Scots that makes them uniquely incapable of doing anything but make an arse of things?

    43. heedtracker says:

      Brexiteer toryboy Chris Grayling wants out of the EU to get rid of EU health and safety in North Sea oil industry, its a waste of money. Give H&S back to the UKOK toryboys? BBC Ligger Neil show right the noo.

      Ligger’s hairdo is a lovely summer sweet honey blonde this weekend, sponsored by L’Oreal of Paris.

    44. DerekM says:

      Oh dear Dave is not having a very good week is he.

      So no voters thats your pensions knacked and out of the EU,and now it turns out we could be just like Norway if we were independant you heard it from the big boss man and Dave wouldnt lie to you now would he.

      Dont blame me i voted YES

    45. Papadox says:

      That giant of truth honesty and fairness, the ace investigative journalist for the EBC, Brillo is totally ignoring the wee gaff on oil by his mate the pig basher.
      The EBC will be trying to destroy all copies of said transmission of the Marr show and threatening the bag for anyone who mentions it or allows anyone else to mention it.

    46. Robert Graham says:

      Its Broons turn spouting the usual pish .
      this great soon to be United states of Europe has been negotiating TTIP in total secrecy with a 30 year block on any discussions especially the ISDS clause that enables US Corporations to extract in secret billions from any Country who tries to protect its Citizens .
      Vote to stay aye right we trust you Dave .

    47. Croompenstein says:

      Remember this Dave.. Do Norway have planes?

    48. jimnarlene says:

      Well, who’d a thunk it? Baisturd.

    49. Kennedy says:

      Compulsive liar. Can’t help it. It’s the breeding you know.

      Inbreeding more like.

    50. Ruby says:

      I’m looking forward to this EU Ref being over and we can get back to discussing Scottish Independence.

      I’m assuming Nicola will start her campaign after this EU Ref.

      I haven’t engaged with this EU Ref. I’m voting remain and if we have an EU Ref in iScotland then I will pay more attention.

    51. Lollysmum says:

      As I’ve said ever since the 1st time I dared to post on Wings-UK is bankrupt without Scottish oil. That’s why WM taxes it so highly. Milking their cash cow before it runs out.

      And finally, that waste of space Cameron has admitted that Scotland’s case for indy as a viable state is a legitimate position.

    52. Grouse Beater says:

      The right-wing (that is, of all parties) was always going to tie itself in knots recycling Scotland’s justification for regaining civil rights. Quoting Norway as a country to emulate was a definite.

      Next will come Ireland and how it’s managed to get back on its feet and pay its way again … watch out for some bozo of a politician praising the ‘Celtic Tiger’.

    53. Tinto Chiel says:

      I think you’ll find Mr Cameron’s words have been taken out of context and twisted by that Evil Cybernat from Bath.


      As Shagpile says, you need a good memory to be a compulsive liar so I’m afraid this must go down as one of Dodgy Dave’s “rasher” statements 😉

      And don’t get me started on yon Baroness Kennedy. How does one small country produce so many sell-out turncoats like her? And where did that drawl come from? Not Holyrood Secondary, I’ll be bound.

      Oh, I’ve started so I’ll finish.

    54. Scott says:

      David Cameron and George Osborne say they might not be able to protect spending on pensions, the NHS and defence in the long term if the UK votes to leave the EU.

      The prime minister said the strain on public finances caused by Brexit would threaten the “triple lock” which guarantees the state pension will rise.

      “It wouldn’t actually be affordable,” Mr Cameron warned.

      My question to these two if the poor old age pensioners and NHS is to suffer will they both tell the Royal Household will have to get less money they could well afford it not us pensioners who Camcum frightened in Scotland.
      Aright pair of twats they are.

    55. ScottishPsyche says:

      But…GERS! Black Hole! Graphs! The IQ level of Yessers! Cybernats!

      Have I left anything out?

    56. Jamur says:


      Grinding of teeth.

      Pair of roasters.

    57. Papadox says:

      @ mealer says 11:20am
      Mealer we are to wee stupid and poor. We are not genetically capable of running our wee country. The oil in Scottish waters is bad oil. We don’t talk about the Atlantic margin, sheeee. This appears to have been the case since 1707. Please try and keep up, remember Westminster is boss and you have got to do what the boss says. Or he’s going to shoot the puppy, then us. Aaa better thegither.

    58. heedtracker says:

      ScottishPsyche says:
      12 June, 2016 at 11:36 am
      But…GERS! Black Hole! Graphs! The IQ level of Yessers! Cybernats!

      Have I left anything out?

      UKOK stuff like this because its their oil. Don’t even think about changing that

    59. Valerie says:

      Just shows how rattled he is. Can’t keep the lies, and trickery straight in his wee brain.

      @Heed, had a look at Liggers barnet. I’d call that colour – manky old Fox.

    60. Thepnr says:

      “We all still get at least one chip, but maybe just a nibble of the fish.”


      Just superb!

    61. Ruby says:

      55% of voters in Scotland believe we are too wee, too poor & too stupid!

      It’s very sad!

      IndyRef2 is going to be very interesting!

    62. Ken500 says:

      Thatcher and Westminster squandered it. A £300Billion Oil Fund. Norway has a £500Billion Oil Fund.

      Osbourne has destroyed the Scottish Oil sector. Taxed at 60/80% when the price had fallen 75%. It is taxed at 40%. Losing thousands of jobs and costing Scotland £Billions.

      The UK Health & Safety rules in the Oil sector are not followed. 4 helicopters falling from the sky in 5 years and no Inquiry. The UK Gov transport committee supported an Inquiry. Robert Goodwill, Transport Minister refused one. A Sherriff Court established Health & Safety rules were not being followed. The Company owners sold up two years later for £250Million.

    63. Hugh Kirk says:

      Stating the bleeding obvious. But then most people with a brain already know this.

    64. Tinto Chiel at 11.32

      Oh Yes. We aaal taaalk like that in Holyrood SS

    65. arthur thomson says:

      And of course we all knew this. And of course everyone in Scotland knew and knows this. And yet a majority apparently voted no to independence. Why?

      Learned helplessness, that is why. An utterly cynical process of undermining the confidence of the Scottish people to the point where they could not conceive of being other than subservient. And the only antidote is to give every support to a competent Scottish government to undo the damage. We have to take the path and the time to develop the confidence of the Scottish people to the point where they realise that they can be whole people.

      Fortunately, the shambles of the EU Referendum and its aftermath are going to help by exposing the reality – that those who have reigned over Scotland are not the infinitely superior people their British Bullshit propaganda have made them out to be.

      We have to be patient, organised and be prepared to force the issue when the moment is right. Until the majority of the Scottish population are clearly confident enough to make the change we need to be patient enough to focus on building towards the inevitable. That is the strategy of the SNP and it is the right one.

    66. heedtracker says:

      @Heed, had a look at Liggers barnet. I’d call that colour – manky old Fox.

      Fox’s are lovely creatures. Ligger and his massed ranks of teamGB tory attack propagandists assisted toryboy UK destroy UK heavy industry, from Sheffield to the Clyde.

      Norway used their oil and gas revenues to build one of the worlds biggest and most successful steel and ship/rig building nations and all with 4? million peeps.

      One of UKOK’s biggest lies to Scotland 2014, Norway’s an ultra socialist state, with giant taxation. Fact is Norway has exactly one nationalised oil company Statoil. Its like BP except Norway doesn’t have the cancer that is red and blue toryboy UKOK world, who flogged BP for peanuts a long time ago, and currently prostrating itself to their billionaire royals this weekend.

      And then there’s Norway multi trillion oil pension funds. Holy fcuk.

    67. Thepnr says:

      Norway only gained her Independence in 1905 from Sweden who had “acquired” her in 1814 after being seceded from Denmark.

      Prior to this Norway had been in a union with Denmark for more than 400 years. It is of no surprise that Denmark took all the good stuff but kept Norway loyal by “educating” the wealthiest Norwegian families in Copenhagen.

      There will come a time when the Scots will have had enough of our Union with England, only then will we be like the Norwegians and be able to make our own future.

      Let’s just keep refusing to get back in that box. It’s their box.

    68. Kes Smith says:

      Disgusting. Couldnt believe my ears.

    69. Kenny says:

      You are all completely wrong to compare Scotland to Norway! The two countries are NOT alike at all!! Here are just a few differences off the top of my head….

      1. Scotland is the home of a world famous drink with an internationally known brand which the good people of India, China and Russia go bananas over — and for which they are prepared to shell out large sums.

      2. Scotland has a nation 60 million people directly to the south, ready to buy our exports of food, water and electricity.

      3. The people of Scotland are fluent in the international business language of English.

      4. Scotland tourism can benefit from internationally recognised brands — world famous castles, historical figures, beautiful mountains… and even a monster. Norway may have its fjords, but it does not have Nessie (or Morag!).

      And last but not least…

      5. Scotland’s football fans are so loved the world all over that the citizens of their host towns take out adverts in Scottish newspapers afterwards to say “thank you for coming… we miss you already….” Scottish football fans should be sponsored to wear t-shirts saying “Visit Scotland” in the language of whatever country they are visiting.

      So you are QUITE WRONG to say that Scotland can be compared to Norway… we are in an even better position!

    70. Ruby says:

      Brillo’s hair colour is ‘Rusty Bucket’ (pronounced bouquet)

      It suits him!

    71. Artyhetty says:

      Oh god I can’t watch it sorry, but I get the idea. What we have to remember, is that his lines are pretty much written for him, and that they absolutely do not care what they said to keep Scotland shackled, they will do and say what they like to get what they want.

      The oil has been the major factor in how Scotland has been treated by UKok governments for a very long time. When a bully wants to keep control, they do it by belittling the person they are bullying, as well as turning others against them. Same here, and they know exactly what they are doing, pissing on Scotland from a great height. The fact that they are using Scotland’s oil for their own ends is just another kick in the teeth for Scotland’s people.

      When hameron loses his job, he won’t give a toss, it’s not like he will be at the job centre, desperate for £70 a week, being sanctioned if he doesn’t accept the status of a slave in his UKOKtopia.

      It’s also bigger than the tories, Scotland has many resources, and lots of land and those who have stolen it won’t be giving it back without a fight.

      Ps, O/T. I was just reading an old National, before recycling. An article from April, on how the UK’s ‘Creative Skillset’, has closed it’s base in Glasgow, surprise! Also closed their bases in Cardiff and Belfast. They are moving to ‘new premises in London’. A family of nations, but only one sibling gets the dosh.

    72. Ruby says:

      Ah but Kenny half the population in Norway don’t think that Norway is too wee, too poor & too stupid!

    73. Stoker says:

      I’m thinking of taking a run into town tomorrow just to see how many of the BUM rags are screaming this from their front pages.

      I’m all prepared, i’m taking my 2 hands for counting purposes you understand and i plan to check all the shops just in case one of them happens to be selling the truthful versions.

      I plan for a hectic day of counting and i’m taking a flask of soup with me but the boss says she’ll have my breakfast ready for the next bus back. Can’t help feeling she knows something i don’t.

      Rolls eyes!

    74. Marcia says:

      I may have to invest in a reverse Referendum Bingo Card to mark off the positive Yes campaign messages from 2014 now being used by Cameron. Funny old world ain’t it.

    75. galamcennalath says:

      Valerie says:

      “Just shows how rattled he is. Can’t keep the lies, and trickery straight in his wee brain.”

      You need a great memory and considerable intellect to be a liar, and not discovered.

      Also, you need to be perfectly consistent in the deceitful web you spin. If you tell one set of lies to one group, then another set to others, you won’t get away with it. The inconsistencies surface pretty quickly.

      He’s been well and truly rumbled on this one!

    76. Ian says:

      They lied for 30 years about the oil as proven by the McCrone report. They repeatedly updated their lies about how much oil there was, right up to the Indy vote. Finally one of them says something truthful. I hope enough No voters become aware of this deceitful history and that Camerons words become ingrained in their minds as the moment the mask slipped.

    77. Auld Rock says:

      I Go back to my old ‘High-Horse’ of the Indy Ref Campaign – there is more oil/gas WEST of Shetland and right down the West Coast until our boundary meets that of the Republic of Ireland, let me repeat that REPUBLIC of IRELAND. The largest of these is in possibly the largest oil basin in the world west of Lewis. We should also not forget the oil/gas in the Clyde ubable to be touched in case it interferes with their bloody submarines. Anyone who is still unaware of our reserves can contact me at: asterix [dot] at [dot] valhalla [at] gmail [dot] com

      Auld Rock

    78. Jimbo says:

      Aye, but, compared to oil everywhere else on the planet, everyone knows Scottish oil is worthless – unless it’s administered by Westminster.

    79. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Norway only gained her Independence in 1905 from Sweden who had “acquired” her in 1814 after being seceded from Denmark.”

      Quite true Thepnr but from memory the Norwegian plebiscite result was 99% for independence.

      Why is Scotland so different? It’s partly what Arthur Thomson said at 12.00 pm but we have been locked in this abusive relationship for over 300 years with all the attendant brainwashing and colonisation it has entailed.

      As we all know on here, it can be incredibly difficult to get no voters to see the Bleedin’ Obvious and for the penny to drop. Unfortunately, converting the Soft Noes may be a long process , too long for those like myself near the end of the perch.

      Unless this Brexit fiasco unleashes even greater levels of frothing racism, of course…

    80. Breeks says:

      So, while we are all paying attention, what is wrong with us that this could not be forged into a winning argument back when it mattered in 2014?

    81. Gerry says:

      Wouldn’t have believe he said it if I wasn’t watching live , I choked on my coffee . The missus thought something was wrong as I had good old rant at the TV .This, without a doubt will come back and bite the conniving British state on the arse.

      First ever post even tho I’ve been following for years, great stuff Stuart .

    82. JLT says:

      Another little truth slips out.

      By God …if there is ever a 2nd Referendum, not only is the Nationalist armoury bursting with a list of Unionist broken promises and truth-admitting soundbites …but it makes you wonder what the Unionists will use for their argument. Their armoury must be a tad empty now.

      Naval Defence building in tatters
      EU argument in tatters
      Unable to use Pound Sterling in tatters
      No Oilfield west of Shetlands in tatters
      Broad Shoulders to protect oil industry in tatters

      What have they got left …except the recycled lies.

    83. vlad (not that one) says:

      For what it’s worth, here is my transcript of the clip:

      [Cameron] … Norwegians say to me – you know – they’ve said to me very clearly “If you want to play a part in Europe, play a part in Europe. If you want to be run by Europe, have our position.” – because they basically take dictation about what the rules are. You know I want the best for our…

      [Marr] That’s Norwegian elite, it’s not the ordinary Norwegian people, who are doing pretty well at the moment.

      [Cameron] They have an enormous – they have as much oil as we do and only four million people rather than the sixty million people so that makes a difference.

      [Marr] Yeah, agree, agree.

    84. Bob Mack says:

      Nicola should show this clip as part of the independence education drive planned for this year. It would, or may at least, raise some eyebrows

    85. HandandShrimp says:

      I would say that I don’t think Cameron is even thinking about the Scottish referendum. He simply doesn’t care so he has no need to keep his story straight. The above was purely for consumption of Leave voters in England.

    86. Valerie says:


      I tend to agree with that. I’ve said for a while, the Tories know they have lost Scotland, and only have a shaky grasp left, exercised via the OO, and acolytes of Betty.

      They have to cut their losses, and use energy on their English stronghold.

      I notice how Dodgy also dodged the question from Marr on Tory Election Fraud.

      In or out, Dave will be leaving to spend more time with his pigs.

    87. Andy.D says:

      That’s why I am voting to get out of the EU, bloody liars like D Cameron turn my stomach, please guys lets all vote out give the Establishment a bloody nose, forget about Armageddon it aint going to happen. Remember the Indy Ref full of shit, remember that folks vote OUT of EU.

    88. Grouse Beater says:

      Like the cigar chomping, BMW driving construction bosses arriving at my house to tell me, employ his company and he’ll save me money, why should I trust millionaires telling me the same thing, leaving the EU will save me money?

    89. donnywho says:

      I really enjoyed the Marr show. I do feel somewhat dislocated from the EU referendum. I want to stay in Europe and yet I want Scotland to be independent. So I will vote honestly, and hope we stay in Europe. But in truth I want Scotland to vote for Europe by 60% plus and the EU debate to be lost, by the rest of the UK.

      I don’t like Farage, I don’t like his politics, and I don’t like his presentation, nor do I like his little England attitudes.

      But that said, with his interview. I thought he put forward a good case, not one I agree with, nor one I subscribe to. But it is the first time I’ve seen him present himself reasonably and actually quite well.

      As described before. I want Scotland to be independent. I want us to be in Europe, so I don’t know whether to cheer or cry!

    90. mike cassidy says:

      Just think of the great Scottish Street Party we could be throwing today if we had our own wealth fund.

    91. Jimbo says:

      “That’s why I am voting to get out of the EU, bloody liars like D Cameron turn my stomach, please guys lets all vote out give the Establishment a bloody nose, forget about Armageddon it aint going to happen. Remember the Indy Ref full of shit, remember that folks vote OUT of EU.”

      Scotland mostly always gets what England votes for. If England votes to leave, thereby dragging us out with them against our will, to guarantee another independence referendum, Scotland needs to return a resounding YES to remaining in the EU. A borderline vote to remain be not be sufficient grounds.

      I suspect you must already be aware of that.

    92. Hamish100 says:

      Maybe Nicola can ask tank Commander and the 2nd in line opposition party member if they agree?

    93. Greannach says:

      Nice to see Gordon Brown intervening again for the first time on Sky News. He was smiling at the wrong times again too, so that was reassuring. I muted the sound so, sadly, I didn’t hear if he was scaring pensioners.

    94. Papko says:

      “Why is Scotland so different? It’s partly what Arthur Thomson said at 12.00 pm but we have been locked in this abusive relationship for over 300 years with all the attendant brainwashing and colonisation it has entailed.

      As we all know on here, it can be incredibly difficult to get no voters to see the Bleedin’ Obvious and for the penny to drop. Unfortunately, converting the Soft Noes may be a long process , too long for those like myself near the end of the perch.”

      “brainwashing” ? , do all countries “brainwash” their people , or is just the UK ?

      I live an work in Britain , we go about our business,trade ,pay our tax,and live under the rule of law.

      Country is just fine,true their are many born in poverty, using food banks etc .

      a Syrianesque , national disaster to be sure, but so bad that they can walk to a job in a Strawberry farm.

    95. Thepnr says:

      Put your thing in a dead pigs mouth and the media shrug.

      “Boys will be boys” nothing to see here.

      Slash benefits for the poorest and the disabled and the media shrug.

      “We need to get the deficit down” nothing to see here.

      Vote for British airplanes to bomb Syria and the media shrug.

      “It’s about protecting this country against terrorists” nothing to see here.

      “There are none so blind as those who will not see”

    96. Thepnr says:

      I’m not talking of yer average voter. No, the blind are those journalists whose job it is to inform. It is they who are blind.

    97. Thepnr says:

      At least 25% of the population of Scotland are blind as well as deaf. Or are they just selfish bastards? Probably the latter.

    98. Tinto Chiel says:

      Papko @1.47, I think your response, as far as I understand it, is proof enough of brainwashing.

      Or were you being ironic?

    99. Liz Rannoch says:

      Andy 1.18pm

      Methinks you may have strayed on to the wrong site for you.

      RE Cameron: I hope that ‘somebody’ is recording all the Project Fear crap that they’ve used on this ref. so that we can ‘right back at you’ in Indyref2. ‘Somebody’ who could note down all the sh!t in the papers and maybe send it to the SNP for future use? I’m not tech savvy enough but I’m sure you guys on here know somebody who can?

      For me it’s Independence – first, last and always. So I’ll be voting Remain. Things like EU, Royalty etc can be sorted out after we become a ‘normal country’.

    100. Joe Kinnear says:

      @Jimbo – why do you assume a Brexit with a split vote (Scotland votes Remain) ipso facto results IndyRef2 and Independence winning? You seem to assume Unionist folk in Scotland value the EU more highly than the EU.

      I admit Nicola does and can’t imagine why anyone could have a problem with the most “progressive” thing ever (namely the EU) such that Unionist Scotland shares her view of the relative value of EU membership but just maybe wee Nicola is in a bubble of delusional thinking on this one?

      Assumptions tend to make an ass out of those that make them far too easily.

    101. JGedd says:

      @Artyhetty 12.12pm

      Unfortunately, I agree with what you say. UKOK politicians can say what they like without shame as they know much of the Scottish population will not be listening and even if they do, they will elide over the obvious discrepancies in the unionist arguments because they wish to. I often think that these politicians understand the electorate very well. There is nothing to learn about human nature that can’t be learned in a village. And there is no movement for change that hasn’t run up against the same attitudes.

      I have read many commentators on here referring to soft Nos. I have to say I haven’t met any in my neck of the woods. In my area, there are swathes of new housing appearing ineluctably around the main towns and even villages where previously new building was restricted. Our village is virtually doubling in size. There are advantages to be gained in some improvement in amenities (not transport) but it has to be said that this housing is appearing in a region in which there are no new employment opportunities so that people who move here are not moving with jobs. In fact, we keep losing our young to other parts of the UK or other countries.

      Those who move here are from other parts of the UK. There are not enough jobs to absorb them, but they are able to move to a new house in a nice area without that necessity. Some start up hobby businesses such as dog-grooming or gardening which shows initiative but hardly provides employment for any outside their own family and it’s not high skills employment.(Much of this new housing is by Story Homes based mainly in Cumbria. There is a very large, new development growing in tranches around Dumfries which is creating a large new suburb on its own. Story Homes, incidentally, contributed money to Rory’s Cairn.)

      These people didn’t move here to live in an independent country. I don’t criticise them for that. It seems a perfectly understandable thing to do to move to a nice area in attractive countryside with money to spare, probably. They did not expect to be pitched into a political battle not of their choosing. Although I met them when canvassing, they were on the whole pretty polite about something they found an unnecessary irritant, but not persuadable.

      I don’t know what you do about this situation. To me it is unsolvable. It is one of the consequences of the runaway housing market encouraged by all governments and it has happened in attractive areas of England after all. Unfortunately, it does have consequences for independence in Scotland. Don’t wonder about how the vote in the South of Scotland came out as it did. Of course it wasn’t entirely to do with incomers, all they did was increase the conservative vote. However, this vote will continue to increase.

      I hope people are right that those No voting Scots can be persuaded to vote for independence but it appears to me that they are like people in a burning building denying the danger and refusing to leap to safety. They will eventually discover that it is too late to escape, but by then it will be too late for all of us.

      Sorry for the long post, but I won’t be posting again, so if you have read this far, be grateful it will be the last.

    102. Petra says:

      Well that’s definitely one for the archive (Nicola, Alex et al must be laughing their heads off this morning) and I hope it’s zooming its way all over the Internet: Right round the World.

      So much being made of the drop in the price of oil right now. Dropped from $115 a barrel to $20 and has risen to around $50 at present. Taking it that Westminster was coining it in at $115 a barrel and Scotlands population is around 10% (round figure) of the UKs in totality we’d be coining it in at $11 a barrel.

      Someone also mentioned something really interesting recently (Chic?) that is that oil had never been above $50 a barrel pre-2006 (price at the moment) which means that ye old English Treasury had been ‘doing well’ on oil at that price, or lower, for nigh on 40 years.

      We’re (SCOTLAND not ENGLAND DAVIE) absolutely swimming in oil, east and west coast, and how that must stick in their craw. Imagine an England out of the EU, shot of its financial liability (us and our oil etc, etc, etc) and having to ‘return’ Trident subs etc to the yanks. I was going to say it doesn’t bear thinking about, for them, but forgot they’ll still have the Royal Family, the House of Lords and their football ambassadors. Good enough for them.


      @ Kenny at 12:08pm ….. ‘Scotland – Norway ….. We are in an even better position!’

      Spot on Kenny and we could all no doubt add to your list.


      @ ArtyHetty at 12:12pm …. ‘UK Creative Skillset’ closed in Glasgow, Cardiff and Belfast to open in London’.

      I’ve lost count of the number of company branches that have been closed in Scotland to maintain English branches even although the Scottish branches were much more productive / successful (English branches failing). The Better Together concept in practise.

    103. bjsalba says:

      Nevern forget. After school Farage worked for this crew.

      Nuff said.

    104. Sharny Dubs says:

      Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, but I just could not bring myself to listen to the sleazy, condescending, patronizing, lying, marble-mouthed, snake-oil salesman utter rubbish that he spouts and from your comments my suspicions were entirely justified. Thanks for sparing me the unpleasant experience. The Dubs

    105. Petra says:

      Oh and I forgot to mention that the population in Norway, 2016, is 5,200,000. Population in Scotland is around 5,200,000. Maybe Davie spouting 4,000,000 was meant to throw us …. hope we wouldn’t make the connection, lol.

    106. Kevin Evans says:

      Is that the goal posts moving again?

      If only they could have done that last night against Russia.

      This EU ref is throwing up some classic clingers contradicting the indyref claims.

    107. David McCann says:


      That AND whisky!

    108. John Thomson says:

      My 8 and 9 year old grandsons fell about laughing and there was nothing I could do but join them. Kettle on time to eat rock cakes

    109. Thepnr says:

      I have this big box, did I say big? Well this one is massive, so massive at least 1.6 million of us can fit in comfortably.

      It’s warm in this box and there are loads and loads of goodies, we know you scrounging Jocks can’t resist a freebie. Well come on in to this box.

      Irresistible and comforting inside the box so why not?

      Stay away from that box, there are snakes in that box. Giant pythons that will swallow your spirit, ambition and hope in one gulp.

      Don’t get in that box JGedd there is always hope as long as enough of us refuse to get in the box. Don’t make that your last post else we be weakened.

    110. Natalie says:

      It must be our genetic programming then….

    111. Effijy says:

      Guys, some of your are running wild here.
      I don’t like many things about the EU, but I do believe
      we are better in it and it is better to be involved in reforming it from inside.

      It must be reformed due general unrest and the dramatic changes in both the global and European economies.

      If most Scots voted to exit, you then have no reason for a 2nd Indy Ref. You could be agreeing with the English.

      The next Indy Ref could only be justified within the next 2 years, if a Good Scottish Majority want to remain while England wants out.

      Trust me, if we do exit, and the Tories have negligible opposition for the next 10 years, there will be no Health & Safety, No free NHS treatment, No Pensions, No Contracted hours employment, No right to withdraw your labour.

      This will lead to rioting in the streets, eventually, but the Filthy Rich will have powers beyond their dreams and they will ensure that Their Media, Their Police, Their Politicians and Their Army will maintain their status just as China, America, and North Korea can do today.

      It is only the more enlightened EU nations and their threat of expulsion for non conformity that keeps the Right Wing Tories in check.

    112. North chiel says:

      Eleanor Bradford ( obviously getting well paid by EBC news London) on a ” Sunday jaunt” to the Braemar ” birthday celebrations” , with outrageous anti SNP comments linking the referendum “yes vote” as ” anti monarchist” during an interview with an ex Braemar gathering chief. Every story this
      BBC Scotlland ” propagandist ” covers has an ” anti SNP angle “

    113. Robert Louis says:

      The hypocritical lying nature of that man, and all the other conniving unionists beggars belief. So, let me get this right, Norway does well because it has a population of approx 5 million and oil, but an independent Scotland with a population of approx 5 million and more oil and gas, would be bankrupt.

      Once you realise the way Scots have been lied to about our wealth, it is common sense to want nothing short of independence from these lying barstewards in London who have stolen from us for over three hundred years.

      Poor wee Scotland eh? 60% of Europe’s proven oil and gas reserves, yet could not ever possibly manage without England. Such lying machiavellian tosh.

    114. carjamtic says:

      Rev. stop doing this,how many yoon carmudgeons have choked on their all bran this morning seeing this.

      One minute alls well with the world,the next they are begging forgiveness from their own grandchildren.

      No,no forgiveness here,lying old cnuts,on the bonus side the HoL will be a bit quieter with a few less,well dressed snorers around,as will the private clubs of SW1.

    115. Socrates MacSporran says:

      These comments are somewhat off-topic

      Baroness Kennedy was a huge embarrassment on ‘The Andrew Marr’ show this morning. She was turning herself inside out to try not to refer to the hooligans in Marseilles as: “English”. They were, initially: “British”, but, towards the end she had no option but to call them: “English”.

      Then, she became really abusive – what an example of “Proud Scots – but” she is.

      Did anyone notice, HRH the Earl of Wessex, turned up at Trooping the Colour yesterday done-up in his London Scottish Regiment uniform, to reflect his position as Royal Colonel of the London Regiment.

      Had I not known this information (as above), I might have thought his entertainment career had been reduced to being a Harry Lauder tribute act. Still, he was probablay trying for the “Proud Scots – but” sector’s support.

      Aye well, once he succeeds his old man as Duke of Edinburgh, we will no doubt see more of him up here. If he does as much good as his eldest brother has since taking-on Dumfries House, all will be well, but, Ah hae ma doots.

      Given his military career lasted three months, before he rushed, crying, home to Mummy – why was he in uniform at all, he was a mere spectator? The Earl of Inverness – who of course saw active service in the Falklands, was in civilian morning dress yesterday.

    116. Robert Kerr says:

      @North chiel

      That’s their job. They get paid well for it. Funded by the TV Tax.


    117. Brian Powell says:

      Basically he can say what he wants because the 55% No voters handed that ‘right’ to him on a plate, and remarkable a giant chunk of Scottish Labour seem to want that to continue.

      They don’t want to take the step to stop it, but still want someone outside to save them from it, just not them.

    118. Robert Louis says:

      I grew up in Edinburgh, and for most of my life, English liars (and their craven ‘Scottish’ stooges) told us all, that Scottish oil is worthless, and it will run out very soon.

      Here we are many decades later, and still these liars in London (and their craven ‘Scottish’ stooges) persist with their lies.

      It makes me so angry, so very very angry. These people should be run out of Scotland. They are nothing but crooks in suits, a liar every one.

      For those not sure of the background to how Westminster (blue AND red tories) lied to Scotland repeatedly (and still do) about our wealth, some links are below.

    119. Brian McHugh says:

      Spot on Effigy, and then there is TTIP…

      Torys + TTIP – EU Protection = Disaster for Scotland

    120. Petra says:

      We should get that statement onto billboards, banners at gatherings, marches and protests and printed on T-shirts. We could also put cards at the back window of our moving cars which can then be easily removed to prevent damage from the Unionists.

      @ JGedd at 2:09pm ….

      Great post JGedd. REALLY informative and let’s hope it’s not going to be your last on here at all.

    121. Valerie says:


      I think many are disgusted at Eddie of Wessex, sporting several medals, in his regalia, for 3 months in the Marines? One Tweet I saw, said here is my brother, 16 years in the Navy, sporting 1 medal, compared to the champ of Its a Knockout, sporting at least 5 medals.

      The whole spectacle is truly foreign to me. I find this mass adulation of the monarchy truly baffling.

      I was gobsmacked by the public spectacle over Diana too.

    122. MJS Dundee says:

      Jings, yoose lot getting all excited about Kameron and some nasty horrible oil … .

      Dontcha know that you’re supposed to be watching 1000s of eejits that have paid £10K a pop (huh? according to the Boakshire Blethering Corporation just now), to sit at a tressel table in the rain with a soggy sandwich – in deference to Q Liz being older today than she was yesterday.

      You’re missing this critical Britishisation by wasting time on this renegade website. Stop it. Now. And get yurrsels in front of the box.

      And if yoor really lucky, yoose’ll get to watch the Boakshire coverage of the Braymore Naemore Highland Getting Pelted On Gathering celebration of the same pish.

      Including comment from Major Gen Bendover frae InverMcTeuchtary who’s desperate to make sure yoose understand that any Scotlandshire anti-queenie feeling is only down in the central belt. There’s more Irish immigration into the central belt apparently and that’s the cause … . (Seriously, some fossil actually said that – that’d be an ethnically pure Highlander then we have to suppose).

      You know, I’m not terribly anti-monarchy, though mainly due to the thought of a president Blair or Cameron and also through having met a few royals and found them to be decent folks. But when I’m exposed to the intergalactic championship levels of Brit-nat arse-sookery that gush out of this sort of thing …, I really don’t know. No wonder queenie looks stern most of the time, thinking “oh no, how much more of this obsequious pish can I take?”

      … And now, let’s go over the Boakshire Broadcasting Company’s senior Queeny shoe expert editor to tell us how really very very bad oil actually is … .

      I was about to sign off, then this …

      “These people go back to the reign of King Edgar over a millenium before … ”

      WTF is King Edgar?? And does anyone actually care? Gadds, there’s more of it …

      “The Duck of Edinburgh is the most Royal person there, both his parents are descended from Kings and Queens … “.

      It’s that Giles Brandreth eejit (I think).

      Hmmm. Wait a minute. King Edgar over a 1000 yrs back – no idea who he was but, England didn’t exist and had never existed until after the Normans finished conquering the territory we know today as England. And they didn’t start until 1066. And the Royal family is mainly a mix of Germanic Euros and Scottish Stuarts anyway. Giles’ pish about Edgar’s DNA being in there somewhere.

      I’m saved – Turkey v Croatia has come back on again. Wonder if the “British thugs” will be causing problems at that one Baroness Kennedy? F right off.

    123. Effijy says:

      Baroness Kennedy and Eddie Izzard, any of you ever see the Two of them in the same room at the same time?

      Both, or one of them, is too dumb to see that although they
      want the country to remain, they are doing a better job for Brexit than Boris and Gove put together.

    124. heedtracker says:

      At least 25% of the population of Scotland are blind as well as deaf. Or are they just selfish bastards? Probably the latter.

      How many Scots went with their The Vow shyst, signed by all the UK greats and given max impact via UKOK BBC led propagandists like this crew, who normal completely black out their scotland region

      One of Scotland’s shameless liars in action. It probably ended the SLabour era for good in Scotland but was well worth it if it keeps control of a UK region. And likes of Crash and the Flipper knew they’d never have to stand for election again.

      Gordon Brown interview: Scots being offered ‘home rule within UK’ | Channel 4 News

    125. Dr Jim says:

      UK votes out, Scotland votes in, then Scotland votes out of UK, then Scotland takes it’s own sweet time about deciding whether or if we vote EU in again depending on what the EU offer, because they will and they’ll bend over backwards to offer it, Scotland would have control of all our land and sea borders which extend a long way North and for the peace and security of all, the EU will shovel money and favours at us

      I can hear the English retching from here

      What’s so difficult to grasp

    126. Richardinho says:

      Amusing video. Lets be honest though, do we really need Cameron to tell us that we’d be better off in control of our resources?

    127. North chiel says:

      Re ” Robert Kerr” at 0244 pm , thanks Robert , however I have been ” enjoying this” for as long as I can remember. Perhaps if we keep ” flagging up” this blatant political bias” , eventually the ” wider audience ” fed on this continuous anti SNP / pro unionist diet from the London owned and controlled media may ” see the light” ? .Hopefully before any 2nd referendum , as this was a substantial factor in the 2014 defeat.

    128. Socrates MacSporran says:

      MJS Dundee

      Haud yer wheesht Son, we dinnae want thae Sassenachs discoverin’ their precious “Queen of England” is actually German/Scots; that would never do.

    129. Petra says:

      I wonder if anyone at the SLab branch office (Tory and Lib-Dem) is reading this today? Remember how they demanded an apology from Alex Salmond when the price of oil dropped: Alex the psychic’s fault.

      Nicola should bring this up at FMQ’s this week and demand an apology from THEM. A public apology made to Scotland and the Scots for covering up the Truth for over 40 years and robbing us of hundreds of billions of pounds. Hundreds of billions that could have been used to eliminate poverty and supported the best health and educational systems in the World. The abject misery of millions, over time, down to THEM. Every time I hear Dugdale bleat on about caring for young Scots and complaining about educational standards I feel like slapping her face … and I’m not known to be a violent person.

      Labour leaders Wilson, Callahan, Blair and Brown all in on the act. Dugdale, Davidson and Rennie still conning the Scots in cahoots with their corrupt trumpeting media mouthpiece / s. The whole kit and caboodle should be grabbed by their individual collars, better still their bl**dy ears, and run right out of Scotland.

    130. euan0709 says:

      Hi Guys……….Did any of you read in the weekend press that a Bonkers “Independent” Cllr Michael Cook from Borders Council wants Transport Scotland To remove the ,three Scottish flags at the Border and replace them with a Union Flag,a Berwick Flag and ONE Scottish Flag.
      Talk about self loathing……………

    131. heedtracker says:

      Haud yer wheesht Son, we dinnae want thae Sassenachs discoverin’ their precious “Queen of England” is actually German/Scots; that would never do.

      The North Sea used to be called the German sea but dont know why. Nor do I know why Blair, Brown and Lab co, redrew the English North Sea border up to and across Montrose, thereby increasing Englands territorial seas by a big chunk.

      Lab gimps like Blair and Brown are red tories but it makes no sense redrawing and expanding England’s North sea and yes they drew it round some giant oil fields of the southern north sea but they own them anyway.

    132. JGedd says:

      Thanks Thepnr @ 2.31pm.

      I like your ‘box’ metaphor. I’m not getting into their box and you’re making me feel guilty! Especially since AhuraMazda seems to have absented himself but has sent along a couple of deputies. Is GCHQ down to their reserve holiday replacements or are they just lurkers who were encouraged by his ubiquitous presence?

      Anyway, I don’t post often since most of you say what I would say anyway – and a damned sight more succinctly than I would! However, I will be pretty tied-up over the coming months so call it advance neurosis or just the Sunday doldrums sapping the spirit. I will always vote for independence, come what may. I’m not deserting the cause or this site.

      Thanks also Petra @2.09pm one of our many informative contributors. I’ll look forward to reading your posts over the coming somewhat hectic months for me.

    133. Petra says:

      @ MJS Dundee at 3:09pm …..

      Great post MJS and thanks for the real belly laugh. Fantastic informative posts all round and of course Stu on the ball as usual. Thanks Stu.

    134. heedtracker says:

      .Did any of you read in the weekend press that a Bonkers “Independent” Cllr Michael Cook from Borders Council wants Transport Scotland To remove the ,three Scottish flags at the Border and replace them with a Union Flag,a Berwick Flag and ONE Scottish Flag.”

      Also there is no actual Berwick Flag, apparently

      “If the plans get the go-ahead, a new Berwickshire flag will needed to researched and created by the chairman in conjunction with council officials.

      Inspiration could come from the old Berwickshire County coat of arms, which was granted in 1890 or from the arms of the Berwickshire District Council, created in 1975.

      Any new design will require the approval from the Lord Lyon, who have the power to prosecute anyone who uses unauthorised arms.”

      Says the hootsman.

    135. bugsbunny says:

      Most of the over 65’s will still vote no. They have been brainwashed since birth to glory in Empire the way a pig glories in rolling about in their own shite. Add the tories and OO and most of the settlers from south of the border, then we have to convince about 15% of the overall people who voted (on all sides) as I reckon that 70% of the no’s are unreachable. So if we can convince 1/3rd of the soft no’s, we will win. I know live long labour supporters without a pot to piss in who switched to voting Tory who have been on benefits for years.

      A waste of oxygen. I hope for their sakes and others in their position that they DON’T get what they voted for. These tory bastards would and have cut the benefits of the terminally ill. All for the sake of a family of in-breeds and a blood soaked flag. Idiots.

    136. Mick DIAMOND says:

      Dr jim 3.17 pm. Yes your post makes absolute sense, but rather than live in an independent prosperous and thriving scotland. Unionists would rather live in an apocalyptic dying scotland, as long as they can still tug their forelocks to queenie and the butchers apron.

    137. Robert Kerr says:

      @North chiel

      I take delight in saying, mainly to them others ” Is that true or did you hear it on the BBC? ”

      Drip… drip… drip.

      We are in this for keeps !

    138. Jimbo says:

      “@Jimbo – why do you assume a Brexit with a split vote (Scotland votes Remain) ipso facto results IndyRef2 and Independence winning?”

      I said it gets us another referendum. I didn’t say anything about independence winning.

      “You seem to assume Unionist folk in Scotland value the EU more highly than the EU.”

      I don’t assume anything (other than perhaps you meant ‘value the EU more highly than the UK’).

      I only see it as an opportunity for a rerun of the independence referendum. I’d rather have one and take the chance of losing than not have one at all.

    139. heedtracker says:

      Another end of era SLab if House of Lords delight that we can never vote for, in action for her country, British fans, England fans and British fans, all poor wee souls in France

      HoL apologists keep saying HoL has no actual power but how come there’s a never ending parade of Lords and Ladies and Baronesses seated in BBC studios, all laying down0 the UKOK toryboy law?

      Last HoL creep out I watched, BBC vote SLab Scotland coverage of the Scottish elections with LibDem buffoons like Nicol Steven and some other LibDem wet fart lord Purvis, all demanding Scotland respects the 2014 ref and never again holds a referendum.

      SLibDem’s are even deader than SLab now but there’s an awful lot of them in HoL though

    140. cirsium says:

      @Brian McHugh, 2.53

      Brian – currently, EU membership protects us a bit from a Tory government. Since it is the EU which is negotiating the TTIP, the EU is not going to protect us against this treaty. Now that Wikileaks has exposed its dire secret terms, hopefully some national governments are going to refuse to sign it.

    141. Brian McHugh says:

      Circium, Just pointing out that leaving the EU is still likely to leave us stuck with TTIP.

    142. Breeks says:

      I echo Petra JGedd at 2.09…

      I hope it isn’t your last post either.

      I have family West Coast / Border land, and hear conversations between carers who are provided free North of the Border, but paid for a few miles away. It isn’t hostile, but then you do wonder whether the conversation changes between all Scots or all English company.

      People think it’s yokel’s paranoia when semi rural areas flag up problems about incoming population, but it’s a bona fide concern. I remember when it was the Highlands under pressure from holiday homes; pubs, shops and schools closing because the population were only part time residents. I seem to recall discussion at that time about how much influx a community could absorb without changing the entire nature of the community, but some residents were frequeqently pilloried as bigots and racists and anti English even to suggest some forms of control. I seem to recall Knoydart being called “Little Nottingham” because there were so few indigenous residents left. What were people to make of their holidays in the Highlands when there were more deer to be seen than Highlanders?

      I promise you JGedd, you are not alone in your concerns about these sprawling new Townships which seem to buy pass Planning constraints and steam roller over local concerns. The whole subject is thoroughly toxic; from the trashy quality of the property being built, through the social engineering going on, and the Government coffers and corrupt Councils rubbing their hands in glee at the Council Tax dividends and tax on fat profits. Money talks all right, and don’t kid yourself Planning Departments can control it.

      The whole subject is one very close to my heart, and I fear you may have the same problems I do getting anybody to listen. There is too much filthy lucre to be made from housing, and too many pockets being lined along the way. Maybe it was always thus…

      It isn’t all doom and gloom however. Once some of these incomers realise there isn’t any intrinsic hatred of the English, they get attached to their community, get involved, and start to feel protective about it. Sometimes they become as vocal about incomers as the locals did; because now it’s suddenly “their” shops and pubs which can’t stay open. Never was any hatred you see, it was just local people genuinely upset their school might have to close. Nowt as queer as folks as they say…

      I have many English friends who are sympathetic to Scottish Independence; or at least say they are, but would I trust them alone and unseen in the polling booths to put their X in the right place when it meant cutting the umbilical cord with mother England? Hmmm… That’s a good question. Some yes, some no, most of them in the forces are a pretty reliable no.

      I thoroughly detest modern attitudes towards property. We have such depth to our building heritage and crafts which currently means absolutely nothing to those individuals charged with looking after it. Our trades and craftspeople have never been under such sustained duress, and effective help and support for them is simply non-existent. Might even be tempted to say openly hostile. Don’t point at any cracks and all that… Customer won’t like it.

      Part of a towns character comes from coach houses, smithies, mills and school houses being sufficiently robust to be turned into homes or businesses. It makes the buildings and street patterns organic and interesting, and decades or centuries of use, repair, and renovation can be recognised in the fabric. Compare and contrast that with the sterile tin sheds for all things commercial, and the matchstick world of modern housing. No evolution. All of it invasive. No sympathy for the local vernacular. Trash isn’t a big enough word to describe all that’s wrong about it.

      To think these Stepford Townships might even one day cost us independence? Please, let’s wise up before we get to that point.

    143. crazycat says:

      @ Brian McHugh

      If the EU adopts/ratifies/whatever the technical term is TTIP, to withdraw from it would require the agreement of the entire EU (plus someone to start the initiative).

      If the UK, despite Obama’s claim that there would be no automatic trade deals, adopted some sort of TTIP equivalent, that could be overturned by a subsequent UK government.

      Neither of those is easily achieved, but I think we have more chance of the latter than the former.

    144. Ending the political Union with England does not mean ending the monarchy in Scotland,

      She will still be Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland after our Independence,

      just not the United Kingdom.

    145. bugsbunny says:

      O/T. I just noticed that the death toll from that Orlando Club shooting has risen from 20 to 50 in the past few hours. I wonder sometimes about the inflexibility of the U.S Constitution? Surely the right to bear arms was meant for State Militia’s and not every half wit with a bee in his bonnet? I bet the shooter is a regular church goer, probably Baptist?

    146. Thepnr says:


      Glad to hear you will be hanging around. My post was to you directly but also to everyone that reads this site in general.

      We need every Independence supporter we can get. I wouldn’t like to lose a single one.

      Good post by MJS Dundee who mentioned the “box” in a different context, yeah that crap that people will watch all day. I just wish that Independence supporters would finally cancel their telly tax license. There are alternatives.

      Seek and you shall find 🙂

    147. Dr Jim says:

      The whole idea of the Queen makes me spew, but it’s nothing personal I don’t know the woman or her family and I’m sure if I met them they might be quite nice, but that’s hardly the point, we don’t need them for anything, well what I mean is Scotland doesn’t need them

      Obviously England can’t do without them, even getting up in the morning would prove pointless to them if they didn’t have a royal or 127

      What I mean is, they’re like cockroaches inasmuch as they really don’t like us, they only come out when there’s free food and they disappear the first chance they get and what’s annoying is nothing seems to kill them and they just keep breeding

      They’re on our mugs in the kitchen, they crawl over our tea towels, open the cupboard they’re on our tumblers, they’re everywhere and something must be done to eradicate this pestilence

      I suppose the worst thing is, we buy our telly we pay for a licence we turn it on in the vain hope of being entertained and there they are again infesting the corners of our living rooms

      We’re a clever inventive Nation with world class universities and science dudes can none of these learned geezers come up with a poison that’ll take this menace out once and for all

      Before I go Nuclear…. Ooops! ! that doesn’t kill them either

    148. Grouse Beater says:

      It seems like yesterday that the drookit faithful were watching a flotilla of boats and barges celebrate an anniversary of the Queen – at great expense – and here we are again doing the same thing, and in torrential rain again, but at what cost to the nation’s allegedly empty purse?

      What’s next?

      We celebrate the Queen’s one millionth meal swallowed at Buckingham Palace?

    149. Croompenstein says:

      The whole idea of the Queen makes me spew

      Hearing Northern Ireland use the Betty dirge as their national anthem has just given me the dry boak.. 🙁

    150. Thepnr says:

      @Dr Jim

      Hahhaha, oh dear, my sides hurt, that was simply class. That’s you on at least another two lists.

    151. Robert Louis says:


      So, it seems some little piece of filth called Omar, a US citizen, just decided to kill 50 people (and wound at least 53 others) having a party, at random, in a gay club in Orlando.

      ISIS gloating about it online. Worst terrorist shooting in US history.

      What a messed up world.

    152. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      O/T –

      Start of the NI v Poland game. Half the NI team do not sing “their” national anthem. All of the Polish players sing theirs.

      I found that QI…

    153. Petra says:

      @ Breeks at 4:18pm to JGedd at 2:09pm ……….. ” I promise you JGedd you are not alone in your concerns ….”

      Yeah add my name to that list.

    154. louis.b.argyll says:

      Pre-school kids wearing Camilla and Prince Phillip masks..?
      What type of ‘example’ of common culture is that?
      Using children like dancing bears..

      ..hold this..’s for the Queen..
      ..or maybe the War..
      ..or the next King..
      ..but it definitely makes us great..
      ..or will again..
      ..they say..’


    155. Robert Louis says:

      Why on earth do N.Ireland sing god save the queen? It IS the English national anthem?

      What nonsense. A truly awful anti Scottish, imperialistic, racist song.

    156. Robert Louis says:

      louis.b.argyll at 509pm,

      An excellent line, ‘waiting for godot save the queen’. Really sums up this weekends charade.

      Does the Queen have any more of these cursed ‘Birthday celebrations’ this year – just so I can avoid them.

    157. Robert Peffers says:

      Ye canna mak a silk purse frae a pig sticker.
      Or sumthin like that.

    158. ronnie anderson says:

      @ J Gedd , S we all get tier’d from time to time but as things develop we get renewed hope & we,re getting plenty of that through the EU ref,keep your spirits up.

    159. Ealasaid says:

      New post on EU Referendum lack of debate by Derek Bateman.

    160. AlbertaScot says:

      A little OT but what the heck.

      Are there any screen grabs on the songs the Little Englander hoolies were reportedly singing about Sharapova and Putin?

      Before they got their asses kicked in Marseilles by the Ruskie Ultras.

      My tingly spidey senses say it wasn’t Happy Birthday to You or She/He’s a Golly Good Fellow.

      Maybe they shouda stuck with GSTQ.

      Sure a lot of whining going on.

    161. heedtracker says:

      She will still be Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland after our Independence,

      just not the United Kingdom.

      And countries like Canada. Their telly is also belching out the royals grovelfest too.

      Nice BBC man says the royals will live forever but the next king’s a bit different from the present queen. Its because Brenda never ever gets involved in politics you see, and that;s why she threatened YES Scotland Sept 2014, up at her Balmoral palace , because she never gets involved.

      Its good to see another billionaire not royal heading for the UK and ready to get to behind Brexiteers very soon. Future Pres Trump’s mum’s Scots, which is great karma. Money talks in whatever goes for democracy in teamGB.

    162. Phronesis says:

      ‘In 1991, the Minister of Oil and Energy launched a cooperative programme called NORSK (The Competitiveness of the Norwegian Shelf). The aim of this coordinated action was to encourage a search for technical and organisational solutions that could attain acceptance by all relevant groups…

      the coming together of all involved parties -oil companies, supplier and service firms, industrial federations, employers’ and employees’ organisations, and Norwegian oil authorities-proved to be helpful in stopping the disorganisation of coordinated efforts in the oil sector…they had common interests, and that they were all part of a ‘we’, paved the way for new kind of interaction between oil companies and suppliers’

      Nordic Capitalisms and Globalisation. Kristensen & Lilja

      – along with a philosophy embodied in a political establishment that was interested in supporting the state and looking out for its entire population’s well-being with a positive forward vision has ensured Norway’s astonishing and enviable financial legacy from their oil wealth.

      Scotland has not been part of a ‘we’ for decades within this ailing asymmetric UKOK union.The Union is most certainly on its last legs and Scotland is walking upright away from it.

    163. louis.b.argyll says:

      ..and what actual benefit to the country still exists..
      .. by having a huge percentage of our land..
      ..owned by family dynasties recommended by God’s medieval representatives?

      A thousand years and a thousand wars later..

      THE TOP,


    164. ScottieDog says:

      “The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.”
      (Winston Churchill)

    165. Robert Peffers says:

      @Maria Brown says: 12 June, 2016 at 10:33 am

      ” … Does that mean it’s England’s oil?”

      So now the penny drops for you, Maria!

      The Establishment has been obliquely saying just that all along.

      Let me review it for you: –

      They have been using propaganda for well over 309 years. They keep using several terms incorrectly, like talking about, “The Country”, when they refer to, “The United Kingdom”.

      Like saying Britain, or even Great Britain, when they mean only the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

      Like Cameron calling himself the British Prime Minister when he is only the PM of the UK part of Britain.

      Then we have references to, “The”, British Armed Forces when there is actually no such armed forces they are, “A”, British Armed Force.

      Then we had the UK Government commissioned paper written by what was claimed to be two International Law experts that Fluffy Mundell quoted thus – “The Treaty of Union, ‘Extinguished’,the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as, “The United Kingdom”.

      Now I’ve spoken real Lallans Scots since ever I could talk, (not Scottish Standard English), and I’ve written it since ever I could write.

      I have read the actual text of the original Scots version of the Treaty of Union, and also read its English translation. I know that the text of the Act of Union in Scots follows almost exactly the text of the Treaty of Un ion.

      Nowhere does it even come close to anything other than being a treaty of two equally sovereign kingdoms and there is not a single mention of country in the entire document.

      For the benefit of non-Scottish Lallans speakers the Scots word for Country is, “Kintra”, and the Lallans word for Kingdom is, “Kinrick”.

      Trouble is, as any reader of Wings can plainly see, many staunch independence supporters also use the Establishment propaganda and don’t even realise they are being brainwashed by it.

      The false claims of the Establishment are legion – you could even say they are British Legion.(Cough! Cough!).

      There is no doubt whatsoever that what the Treaty of Union legally united was indeed two only kingdoms and neither Wales nor Ireland are mentioned in either the Treaty or in the Acts of Union. The reason being that both countries were integral parts of the Kingdom of England long before the Treaty of Union.

      It was the very obvious reason the resultant set-up was first titled, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, and only changed to, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, after the partition of Ireland.

      However, the entire kingdom and country of Ireland was legally made a part of the Kingdom of England in 1542 under the Parliament of Ireland’s, “Crown of Ireland Act”.

      For the United Kingdom Government to now attempt to claim that the Kingdom of England was already a United Kingdom that the Treaty of 1706/7 added Scotland to is utter mince.

    166. If we vote to come out of the eu and Scotland holds a 2nd ref., and gains independence what kind of independence will it be with other countries telling you what you can and cannot do ? I want independence to mean just that no NATO no U.N. Union with England just us doing our own thing for our own people and ps no special relationship with America

    167. galamcennalath says:

      After having a few hours away and coming back to this ….

      This has to be the biggest Scottish political gaff ever. Has to be. Can’t think of anything like it.

      40 years, or whatever, playing down the importance of oil to Scotland, then the PM of the day tells us how amazing it is for a wee country of 4million (5 actually) to have soooo much oil.

      This one should be milked for all its worth, which is a hell of a lot!

    168. cearc says:

      The first job for Westminster after brexit is to rescind the electoral laws. After all what is the point of them?

      ‘Quentin Letts ?@thequentinletts Jun 9

      Further rumours reach me of postal vote early returns. They may explain the recent acceleration in activity by Downing St.’

    169. Tinto Chiel says:

      The world seems to be getting madder by the day: witness the Orlando massacre.

      I’m still amazed by the racism unleashed down south by the Brexit question, one result of which is the dreadful behaviour of English fans in Marseille. It brought to mind what Will Hutton said the week before our referendum, a statement which caused me to buy my last copy of The Guardian, despite good stuff by Monbiot and Moore. The Herald had been chucked before that, after an article by Ian Wood repeating all the usual tosh about oil.

      “If Britain can’t find a way of sticking together, it is the death of the liberal enlightenment before the atavistic forces of nationalism and ethnicity – a dark omen for the 21st century. Britain will cease as an idea. We will all be diminished.”

      To think I once respected this guy as a political commentator and thinker.

      “The dark atavistic forces of nationalism and ethnicity”? Something I never encountered on the Yes side of the campaign but he, with his great intellect and sensitivity, can surely now see everywhere in England 2016.

      Bitter, moi? You betcha.

    170. Macart says:


      Ayup, its the mother of all gaffs given the narrative he launched at the Scottish electorate throughout the referendum campaign. Then of course there are the poison pills such as Blair McDougall and his ilk who for the past two years especially have denigrated anything to do with oil, the oil industry and its relationship to the Scottish economy.

      So looking forward to BTs next campaign at this point. Any time some wit brings the subject up, simply link to this segment till they’re as sick of the sight of him as we are.

      Wonder if the usual suspects are on twatter attempting to contradict the PM of the United Kingdom at this point? 😀 LOLZ

    171. louis.b.argyll says:

      Out damn spot, the Tories are stained by layers upon layers of lies and excuses.
      On average, I’d say every second Tory statement seems to be bluster/bollocks..
      While every other ‘line’ is exposed as an attempt to hide a previous lie.
      I’d say the Rev has it too easy, his work done.

    172. Valerie says:


      I saw that tweet as well. It may well account for Dodgys frazzled performance this morning. Sheer desperation driving him as I don’t think he wanted to be there. Whenever he appears, the Brexiteers go into overdrive.

      Half his party wants him gone now. There is also a vid circulating on FB, where Dodgy is doing a Q & A with a small audience and a young girl tells him –

      You have fked everything! The sick, the disabled..

      Camera pans back to Dodgy, and you can see the huge gulp he swallows, as his media training kicks in, and he continues to face forward, and control his face.

      Best thing in a long time.

    173. Kennedy says:

      This is why Dave doesn’t do live debates. He is a liability to the establishment.

      And a coward.

    174. Valerie says:

      Better see this before it disappears

      Young woman tells Dodgy

      Watch his Adam’s Apple bobbing

    175. cearc says:

      I reckon the only way that dave could win now would be to tell the truth. Uk is not great. It is unimportant small country, widely unpopular and a pain in the neck in the EU since it joined with it’s insistence on always being treated differently.

      It has greater debt than Greece and an ever growing trade deficit, sod all working defences and is dependent on the EU for food and electricity imports.

      Can’t see him doing it!

    176. galamcennalath says:

      Macart says:

      “So looking forward to BTs next campaign at this point”

      You know, the way things are going it will a half arsed affair in the knowledge that the game is up for their Union.

      It will be beyond any defence. Ideally, they will just put up a token campaign. The weight of evidence since 2014 will be overwhelming. There will be few more lies to tell because they have mostly been told, and debunked.

      At the same time the SNP and Yes will have the story on the more controversial aspect of Indy thought through better.

      Once campaigning starts, the Yes vote will increase. Loads of people don’t think about it day to day the way we do, but once the total failings of the concept of being better together are highlighted, many more will start to come round.

      I’m optimistic, these days. Cameron gave my optimism a further good boost this morning!

    177. grahamlive says:

      I literally (and I mean that in it’s true sense) spat my tea out when he said that. Couldn’t believe my ears!

    178. woosie says:

      On the beeb’s case again, sorry.

      Just caught some of QT. Chris Grayling, unpainted clown, allowed to state as fact that support for SNP in latest election is down, and that polls suggest support for indy down. All uncontested because, yet again, no Scots on the panel, despite several of the questions about Scotland leaving uk in the event of a brexit.

      Some crazed bint, Allison Pearson, I think, responded to the possibility of Scots indy, said “of course not, they can’t afford it”.

      Swear jar looking very healthy now1

    179. orri says:

      The govern report with the segment about Scotland ceasing to be and being absorbed by an expanded and renamed England is not saying that that’s what happened. It specifically goes on to mention both Scotland and England being extinguished. The only reason it is raised in hat report is to dismiss it as at all relevant in the context of Scottish independence.

    180. Macandroid says:

      Robert Louis @ 5:10pm

      GSTQ is not the English national anthem. Check Commie Games and Lan of Hope and Glory. GSTQ is national anthem of UK. Unfortunately football, rugby and cricket think it is GSTQ. There may be other sports too.

      Vote remain, get shot of England, sort out EU (eventually!).

    181. heedtracker says:

      Spectacular tory BBC news propaganda Laura Keunssberg style right the now for Mike Gove. He says his dad’s Aberdeen fish merchant business went bust and that’s makes him anti EU.

      Main reason so many Aberdeen fish merchants went bust, no fish left. Its the EU that’s been able to at least try and stop the total emptying of life from our seas but that’s not mentioned by Laura or Mike. Why would they.

    182. heedtracker says:

      O/T but why cant Scotland have a Hampden like this? Have to hand it to the French and football grounds

    183. MacRocker says:

      On the subject of North Sea oil, as everyone knows there was a lot made about the broad shoulders of the United Kingdom being able to protect the oil industry during the indyref campaign.

      Now that the referendum has come and went, we have experienced a plunge in the oil price and as a result the industry has been decimated and tens of thousands being put out work despite the fact the industry has the broad shoulders of the United Kingdom behind it.

      I’m surprised that more hasn’t been made of this as well as the fact that the frigate work that was promised as well in the event of voting no won’t be here for the foreseeable future because the MOD is skint.

    184. Macandroid says:


      I wonder how all the other 90 year olds in the UK have spent the weekend.

      Have they been waited on hand and foot, pandered to, fed for free, had huge expense spent on them to have Red Arrows fly overhead, 21 gun salute, etc, etc.?

      Some folk believe they bring in more money to the UK than it costs us to keep them. Who’s going to fork out to see King Charlie I wonder?

    185. Arthetty says:

      It will be interesting to see what the international responses will be, should we be taken out of the EU. My family in Australia, are not too impressed about the prospect, saying it is economic suicide, and has potential to destabilise things, the EU having been positive in terms of peace for Europe.
      They work in the financial sector, were interested in the Brain family situation, but apparently immigration has been made harder over there, if thats possible!

    186. TheItalianJob says:

      @headtracker at 7.30pm

      Beacause Thatcher re-cinded the pledge by the previous Labour Government to build a 80,000 all seater new Hampden. I have the program from the 1980 Scottish Cup fins which I attended which stated that this would be the last time you would see this Hampden stadium. There was an artist’s impression of the new stadium which was spectacular.

      The SFA had to rely on years of scrimping and saving to build the present Hampden we have.

      Another ruined promise by the UKOK government

      I’ve never forgotten this and bring it up when discussing Hampden park.

    187. heedtracker says:

      Greatest liar in Scottish history reheats old material. It worked on sucka Scots

      as Gordon Brown launches a final 10-day push to prevent Britain leaving the EU.
      The former prime minister will use a speech in Leicester to set out a series of reforms he believes

      “I think in the next 10 days, the motto of at least the Labour campaigners should be not to leave the EU, but to lead it,” Brown told Sky News.
      He has already shared the proposals with his old foe David Cameron,

      Is it really and barely a year and half the old shyster was terrorising and lying at us in his scotland region?

      Be interesting to see if Brexiteers like Farage and Bojo rebutt Crash with, “Yes Gordon, you pulled this vote NO Scotland for amazing and exciting reform, Scotland will lead the UK to a bettertogether tomorrow, but then they ended up with fcuk all, SO why should England believe you?

    188. Rock says:


      “At least 25% of the population of Scotland are blind as well as deaf. Or are they just selfish bastards? Probably the latter.”

      Out of the 55% who voted No, maybe 5% are too stupid.

      The remaining 50% is mainly made up of three classes.

      The vast majority of the elderly, diehard British nationalists proud to death of the British Empire.

      The vast majority of English settlers.

      The vast majority of the selfish middle classes.

      Many of the last two vote SNP but will never vote for independence.

      The only way to achieve 51% plus for independence is to reach more of the parts that RIC reached in 2014.

    189. Rock says:


      “I reckon the only way that dave could win now would be to tell the truth.”

      The only way he will win will be by rigging it.

      A rigged Remain vote is guaranteed.

    190. TheItalianJob says:

      Oh no! Not the clunking fist in action again to tell the UKOK how to vote in the EU ref.

      Worked (maybe aye maybe naw) last time in Scots Indy ref but up against a more devided UK this time.

      And most of the U.K. especially the Southern part won’t listen to his rants in my opinion.

      Lost cause is oor “Paw Broon” to all but his own selfish self interests.

    191. sinky says:

      TheItalianJob says: @7.57

      Problem is that some folk think we should always copy England when Wales and republic of Ireland have stadiums that cater for both Rugby and Football making them more viable. No other country in the world has a dedicated national football stadium.

      Meanwhile it emerges that thousands of England fans bought tickets for Russian section in Marseilles yet media complained about lack of segregation.

      Noticed this on an earlier post:

      Daily Telegraph sports reporter tweeted that after match trouble kicked off when English fans threw objects into the Russian section.

      Ben Rumsby ?@ben_rumsby 10h10 hours ago
      Trouble has broken out at the final whistle. Objects being thrown by #ENG section into #RUS end and fans now advancing. #EURO2016

    192. cearc says:


      Not sure that they can rig it, too many of the ‘establishment’ want out. Lower wages, less rights, less benefit money and less regulation for the world’s money laundering centre etc. All mean more money for the very rich.

      Indyref the ‘establishment’ were united in wanting to keep our assets.

    193. yesindyref2 says:

      Just back from a street party here in Ayrshire. Thousands of us, all sat around eating our cucumber sandwiches, waving our Union Jacks, toasting the Queen, all of us with her picture on our T-shirt. The YES bikers roared into town, towing a huge Union Jack and a massive sculpture of the Queen in exqusisite red white and blue, and then …

      … slap slap, eh? Wassup? Oh good grief, must have dozed orf. Had a nightmare, a real stotter, can’t remember what it was about, luckily.

    194. Juteman says:

      Even the kids are getting targeted for Britishness indoctrination.

    195. Almannysbunnet says:

      Laura Kuenssberg and Michael Gove trying to show their Scottishness by discussing his father’s business going burst over rollies and tea. “Rollies (buttered rolls to the uninitiated)” says she.

      Rowies ya dafty! They have never been called rollies in a million years. I’m beginning to doubt they have ever been to Aberdeen.

      I might try asking for some rollies tomorrow and see what I get offered. Probably a packet of rizla papers.

    196. Rock says:



      Not sure that they can rig it, too many of the ‘establishment’ want out. Lower wages, less rights, less benefit money and less regulation for the world’s money laundering centre etc. All mean more money for the very rich.”

      The ones who want to Remain have all the power in their hands, including the rotten to the core Electoral Commission which in Scotland distributed Better Together propaganda for them.

      I would love to see a narrow Leave win in England with a strong Scottish Remain vote leading to an overall UK Remain.

      Supporters of Scottish independence, vote Remain in Scotland but vote Leave if you are in England.

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      The purpose of that “Scotland subsumed into an enlarged England”, is to demonstrate the Treaty of Union itself is extinguished, is no longer extant, does not fly in International Law. And the reason for this is as the two Professors Crawford & Boyle say in the preamble of Annex A:

      We are asked to advise on two questions:
      10 .1
      the status of Scotland and the rUK in international law after Scottish independence, in particular ‘(a) the strength of the position that the rUK would be treated as a continuation of the United Kingdom as a matter of international law and an independent Scotland would be a successor state’; and
      after Scottish independence ‘(b) the principles which would apply to determining the position of the rUK and an independent Scotland within international organisations, in particular the European Union’.

      in other words the two professors were engaged to make the case that the rUK was the Continuing UK, and therefore took over all the Treaties and memberships and Scotland, you go away with nothing.

    198. Breeks says:

      It’s uncanny the Project Fear parallels which we are seeing with Brexit and our own YES referendum.

      What makes that unsettling for me is the complete lack of regret or reluctance about doing so. Scotland wasn’t even treated to a unique set of dirty tricks, this is Tory philosophy, just leave your morals at the door, this house stands for winning at all costs.

      There is no guilt or remorse about the cynical manipulation of our referendum and the wall to wall propaganda. These people are psychotic. They have neither compass nor yardstick to judge their immoral conduct against; if you need to cheat to win, then go ahead, don’t even think about it. Exam day at Eton must be a sight to behold.

      I must confess, there are times when I wonder what lay in store for us if we had won the YES referendum. The anger and contempt would blister paint I am quite sure. I rather suspect our YES campaign stayed under the Tory radar much longer than anticipated, masked by Tory hubris that Scotland couldn’t possibly vote yes. The panic in those last few days was the only real delivery Better Together managed to make look convincing.

      If Brexit proves anything, it proves Better Together 2 will be as predictably faithless, dishonest and manipulative as the first time around. Project Fear wasn’t specially devised for Scotland, it is everyday, run of the mill, Tory-think.

      Be aware people, reasoned argument, logical thought processing and the constancy of truth will be our strength, but it will also make our next campaign predictable too. They will have no qualms about distorting the truth, smearing our integrity, and fabricating all manner of lies and distortion. They have a powerful media machine to belch out their souless propaganda, and we will have nothing of comparable volume or capacity to answer back. That is the reason why we lost first time out.

      I honestly don’t know what will guarantee success next time. I understand that brazen attacks and accusations of bias against the BBC could be spun against us, but at the same time, we cannot afford to let the propaganda pass unchallenged the way it did last time.

      I believe the SNP must at some point risk everything, and tackle the BBC, head on and like a barrelling freight train. It will all rest upon the timing, but right now, I hope at SNP HQ, somebody is studying the Better Together campaign and the Brexit campaigns in minute, forensic detail, so that come Indyref2, we know what the Unionists are going to say and do before they do.

      We must be alert to every trick, every minefield, every blind alley and distraction away from our agenda. We must see it, be alert to it, and most importantly, know how to deal with it and bring the conversation right back onto our agenda. Our MP’s and MSP’s don’t need coached in what to say, heaven forbid, but I think they do need coached in how to think and prepare themselves for interview.

    199. Balaaargh says:

      Sinky says:
      No other country in the world has a dedicated national football stadium”

      Except Romania. And loads more have local teams as tenants as well (i.e., the same as Queens Park)

    200. Effijy says:

      Let’s have a wee reminder about Clunker the Brown Gravy Train they Call Gordon.

      1,Sold all UK Gold reserves months before the value doubled.

      2,Stole £10 Billion from peoples private pensions.

      3,Condoned theft of 6,000square miles of Scottish waters.

      4, Lied about there being no pensions for Independent Scots
      when he knew this had already been GUARANTEED.

      5, Lied about Independent Scots no longer having transplant surgery capability.

      6, Lie about Independent Scotland not having a Blood Transfusion Service.

      7, Lied about the promise of Home Rule for Scotland, a Near Federal State.

      8,He Lied about being able to keep his local Tesco Store open for his constituents. CLOSED !

      9, He is a renowned 2 faced Bully. Remember when he left his microphone on when he met pensioner Gillian Duffy.

      10, His lack of control over UK Banks seen them abuse their freedom and wager our economy on Casino Banking.

      11,He was in power when our worst ever Recession kicked in and strangled ordinary UK families.

      12, He backed up Blair in the Illegal wars.

      13, He followed Blair and set up a Charity in his own name. A charity where un-named organisation gave him £3 Million. He has, on average spent 10,000 per Week, yes Week, of the “Charity” money touring the world in stupendous luxury, spreading the word of his charity.

      14, Although Fabulously wealthy and with a Mega Pot of Funds in his “Charity”, he never gave a penny to any Food Banks in his constituency!

      15, He admits to being able to earn North of £500,000 per year by speaking at Diners in America. The USA obviously like to scratch the back of any PMs that put their needs before thie country.

      16, He Puts English Westminster objectives and goals before anything that might prove beneficial to Scotland.

      17, He promoted that the land of his birth is too wee, too stupid, and too poor to do anything for themselves.

      18, He knew about the McCrone Report and its secrets.

      19, He backed up Blair when he covered up the real story behind the Dunblane Massacre. It has been made top secret for 100 years but rumors abound that Geo Robertson and Brown have been protected from being associated with the killer?

      20, I just hate the guy and his jaw dropping in shock at the magnitude of the lies coming out of his mouth.

      Is this the type of creature that you think should be giving Scotland advice on how to vote?

      Look at his achievements for Slab at the last General Election. lol.

      Clunk Dick forever a Brit!

    201. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Valerie.

      Your link leads nowhere.

      This one works…

    202. Effijy says:

      Michael Gove has never been allowed near a fishing trawler
      in case they got him mixed up with live bait.

      It wasn’t the EU that killed of his fathers fishing business,
      it was more likely Westminster who killed it when they sacrificed access to all EU members who wanted to fish in Scotland, in order to retain exclusivity for fishing in English and Welsh waters.

      If he has an affinity with Scottish Fishermen, where was he when his Tory pals put an unelected Englishman in place to represent us at the EU.

      The creep is a right wing extremist who out for himself.

    203. Tinto Chiel says:

      “in other words the two professors were engaged to make the case that the rUK was the Continuing UK, and therefore took over all the Treaties and memberships and Scotland, you go away with nothing.”

      I think we can all see this UKOKian posturing is nonsense. You remove Scotland from the UK and it’s only one kingdom, England, and the bits they occupied, Wales and the bit of Ireland which was manufactured as a British enclave. There can be no continuing UK and Scotland is in the EU already.

      God help the Welsh is what I say.

    204. Thepnr says:



      Wee Gordies face must be stinging. I felt that slap 100 miles away. Nice one 🙂

    205. John from Fife says:

      O/T 525,000 people try to register to vote on the last day and bring the UK Govt website down. Coincidence?. I wonder if they all wanted POSTAL VOTES.

    206. TheItalianJob says:

      @Effigy at 9.29pm

      Good summing up of all Broons massive failings and corruption.

      To think I was born and raised in the same town as him and he has done so much malise to his own people is sickening.

    207. galamcennalath says:


      Aye, history is not going to be kind to Broon.

    208. Orri says:

      The point is that in answering the question they made it clear they were not basing their answer on whether Scotland was extinguished or not. If their report is at all relevant then it’s in establishing there’s no official governmental possition.

      In reality we’re talking about the disolution of both parliaments and inaugriation of a unitary parliament in joint session which unfortunately meets in the buildings used by one of them, hence the confusion.

      Even were it presumed Cromwell had successfully invaded and subjegated Scotland that was nearly 60 years prior to the acts of union. So Darling’s paraphrase of this is simply a reminder or threat,
      I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.

    209. Tinto Chiel says:

      Effigy: there were only Ten Commandments.

      But, hell, don’t let me stop you.

      Gordon Brown is a despicable man who has betrayed his country and lied, lied, lied to ensure we remained a part of an utterly corrupt Union.

      In other words, a typical British Labour in S______d Massey Ferguson/ Bamber Gascoigne.

      I look forward to a time, when my daughters live in an independent Scotland, that these types are exposed for the ratbags they are.

    210. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      A bit of light relief and then back to the serious stuff?

    211. Still Positive. says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 10.08

      A friend posted that link to her FB page this afternoon. Well worth the read as it is spot on.

    212. Breeks says:


      How’s the weather there in North Britain?

    213. Robert Louis says:

      Macandroid at 719pm,

      Don’t want to burst your bubble, but my comment was about Euro 2016, and it is a FACT, that at that championship, the English national anthem is God save the queen.

    214. Thepnr says:

      Interestingly the demographic most likely to vote leave are Tories and the 65+ age group. Not surprising then that the last 10 days of this campaign by Cameron and his remain camp are attacking pensions.

      “If we leave the EU there will be nothing left in the kitty to pay your pensions.”

      Why we put up with lying shits like Cameron and Osborne to govern us confounds me.

      I know the truth now though. People really are that fucking stupid. Hell mend them.

    215. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @breeks (9.23) –

      ‘Project Fear wasn’t specially devised for Scotland, it is everyday, run of the mill, Tory-think.’

      It’s hard to discuss this stuff without being accused of paranoia.

      But we KNOW that the Intelligence Services are watching us, and have been, long before WOS was even a twinkle in Rev Stu’s eye. That’s their job – as Jim Sillars said, they wouldn’t be doing their jobs if they weren’t watching us, and the Snowden-related revelations about shady units devoted to ‘Scottish’ affairs only confirms as much.

      Any organisations even vaguely ‘leftish’ have always been infiltrated, sometimes at the highest levels. In my own relatively ‘small’ SSP branch (Ayrshire) we were treated to our very own spook, who started attending branch meetings in June 2014 and managed to cause considerable mayhem before flouncing out to join the Greens (when he realised that we were onto him).

      We have to be ready for anything, and that includes WOS being proscribed. No-one here would have any difficulty naming ‘well-kent’ faces in the UK MSM who would wholeheartedly support WOS being forced offline. I don’t know exactly how it would/could be done, but we can safely assume that someone, somewhere, has already considered same, and if they get a chance? they’ll do it.

      BBC’s Christmas Tree files; the blacklisting farmed-out to dodgy outfits like the Economic League (as detailed in The National last week) – this stuff used to be the reserve of so-called ‘conspiracy-theorists’, but we know now it’s for real, and has been for decades.

      We’re well and truly in the end-game, and that means a lot of us, whether or not we use our ‘real’ names here, had best be prepared to be on the receiving end of some nasty stuff, and to help each other as and when it happens.

    216. Big Jock says:

      So if England fans misbehave against Wales. Then they get chucked out of the Euros. Can you imagine what that will do to the leave vote in England and the stay vote in Scotland.

      I think it’s Scotland’s destiny to have lost the battle and then win the war. Why does Scotland want anything to do with England. They behave like arsehole abroad, they want to take us out of the Eu and they obsess about a tax dodgers birthday. What a sad little nation devoid of any worthwhile culture.

    217. heedtracker says:

      UKOK yoon SLaberati culture’s weirdly silent on latest Gordon Brown EUOK intervention tonight. Usual unionist YES baiters on twitter,

      Dr No, nothing

      This idiot, silence

      Teller of UKOK mega whoppers, zip

      So much for their Bettertogetherness.

    218. Dr Jim says:

      I prefer to think of Gordon Brown as “Uncontrollable Flatulence Man”
      With each thudding step across the stage accompanied by an escaped “Ripp” to be followed by that forced smile of certainty that nobody heard it under cover of his weighty feet

      Standing still used to present more difficulty during his speeches until he employed the use of the clunking fist, again succeeding in masking the volume of the offending gases

      I used to wonder why he never shared a platform with anybody else until I made this startling discovery, now all has become clear

      This is why everyone always knew Gordon Brown is an Arse

    219. HandandShrimp says:

      Just watched the news to catch up with the appalling carnage in Orlando. I hadn’t realised that there was supposed to be street parties for the Queen’s birthday today. Did any actually happen or was it just a London thing?

    220. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Don’t be so naive, paranoid? I don’t think so, your card has been well and truly marked just as mine has. Dr Jim after his post about “oor Lizie” has his coat hanging on a shoogly peg.

      Point is, so what? Can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs. Just ask Jim Murphy.

    221. Dr Jim says:

      I’ll bet a thousand million pounds when Scotland becomes Independent we’ll win the Eurovision Song Contest at the first attempt

      Think of it, Oh the joy

    222. Thepnr says:

      The Blue Tories together with the Red Tories walked hand in hand through the lobby in the HoC last week to pass a bill that allows them to record ALL our internet usage, ALL our phone conversations and ALL our private lives.

      Private lives, don’t make me laugh. No Ian, your not paranoid.

    223. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –


      The point is, as you know, that we maintain and build the personal contacts. The WOS social events have been good for that because they allow us to see one another face-to-face, and there’s no substitute for that.

      What ‘worries’ me is that we’d struggle to find a better forum if WOS, for whatever reason, was ‘no more’. Rev Stu said, quite recently, that he was on the verge of chucking-in the towel. (I can’t remember when, precisely, but it wasn’t that long ago…perhaps just after the SG results were in?)

      If he had chucked-it, what then? Where would we have gone?

      I’m not asking these questions to cause bother. I’m serious. If WOS ‘disappears’, what’s the fall-back?

    224. TJenny says:

      Ooh – Owen Jones has just walked off the Sky Papers review because of Julia Hartley Brewer and the presenter trying to deflect the shootings in the LGBT Club in Orlando away from it being an LGBT attack! I think Owen did the right thing. It’s about time some of these right wing presenters and reviewers were put in their place.

    225. JGedd says:

      ronnie anderson @ 5.21pm

      Belatedly, been out all evening, but greetings Ronnie and thanks. You make me feel guilty, your spirit is indefatigable. Didn’t mean to make a dramatic farewell, I was only apologising for a long post since it would be the last one for the foreseeable future but I’ll still keep following.

      Signing off now at last!

    226. heedtracker says:

      This is why everyone always knew Gordon Brown is an Arse

      He meant mad with power. All power corrupts absolutely but Crash had a tiny 6 month window of winnable general election timing. when he finally forced out that lunatic Blair. But he bottled it to become the most unpopular PM ever. Toryboy England’s a cruel world for the red tories, well unless you fancy being a Lord or Baroness. He must hate Cameron too, who blocked him getting head of IMF slot.

      Just think, Crash Gordo could nave bankrupted Planet Earth too.

    227. Thepnr says:

      Yes, I did say ALL.

      That’s yer wee grannie right there. We are ALL seen as potential threats to the existence of the UK state. Not just people that read Wings.

      We are ALL a threat. That’s what happens when the establishment get scared.

      After “THE END,” Orwell includes another chapter, an appendix, called “The Principles of Newspeak.” Since it has the trappings of a tedious scholarly treatise, readers often skip the appendix. But it changes our whole understanding of the novel.

      Written from some unspecified point in the future, it suggests that Big Brother was eventually defeated. The victory is attributed not to individual rebels or to The Brotherhood, an anonymous resistance group, but rather to language itself.

      The appendix details Oceania’s attempt to replace Oldspeak, or English, with Newspeak, a linguistic shorthand that reduces the world of ideas to a set of simple, stark words.

      “The whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought.” It will render dissent “literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.”

      Yeah, what he says.

    228. HandandShrimp says:

      Watched the Alan Little thing Edge of Europe but missed the last 5 minutes. Did he actually come to a point other than Scotland wasn’t invaded by the Germans and Russians in WW2? (I think I already knew that).

    229. Capella says:

      @ Almannysbunnet –
      I might try asking for some rollies tomorrow and see what I get offered. Probably a packet of rizla papers.

      That was so funny I nearly choked. What they were discussing is obviously buttery rowies, or butteries. Laura Keunssberg has probably never been to Aberdeen. Govie, on the other hand, went to Robert Gordon’s fee paying school. But didn’t distinguish himself I hear. Maybe rowies weren’t on the menu.

    230. heedtracker says:

      Rancid the Graun gets more like the torygraph by the day. UKOK propaganda is one thing but this is mince even for that crew

      Britain’s Euro 2016 police chief lambasts ‘tooled up’ Russian fans

      He told how British police spotters saw some Russia fans “tooling up” with gum shields, fingerless martial arts gloves and bandanas.”

      Assault with a bandanna might be sore but seriously assaulting bar staff, passersby, throwing bottles and chairs at anyone at all, especially riot cops, is probably more much serious. Its one thing to stick up for their lads abroad but UKOK hackdom hasn’t a clue.

    231. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @heedtracker –

      Do you, or does anyone else, happen to have a link to the press conference where Blair and Brown were being asked about whatever, and Blair was, quite unexpectedly, asked a properly jaggy question about Iraq?

      …and lo there was a ponderous silence, and Gordon’s jaw was going ten to the dozen, like he was catching the beads of sweat as they dripped from his brow, and the silence went on and Blair could not, would not provide an answer, and then, when it was all-but unbearable, Gordon The Brown did lob-in, saying that the PM had done what he had to do and it was magnificent and historic, and he did so using the same quasi-Biblical rhetoric that one might expect from a Son of The Manse, and so it was that the multitude of reporters were soothed and quieted, and Blair was heard to mutter ‘thanks’.

      That was Brown’s chance, right there, to hang Blair out to dry, and he bottled it.

      Does anyone else remember this?

    232. Onwards says:

      Auld Rock says:
      12 June, 2016 at 12:29 pm

      “there is more oil/gas WEST of Shetland and right down the West Coast until our boundary meets that of the Republic of Ireland, let me repeat that REPUBLIC of IRELAND. The largest of these is in possibly the largest oil basin in the world west of Lewis. We should also not forget the oil/gas in the Clyde ubable to be touched in case it interferes with their bloody submarines.

      It’s a tragedy that we have squandered so much of our potential so far. If we had a Scottish public oil company like Norway does, you can bet the West coast would have seen far more activity. The fact it is a major naval exercise area has likely held up exploration, not just the deeper waters.

      Point is that oil has a limited lifespan left because of electric/fuelcell/hybrid vehicles. There are other uses, but that’s a major driver of the demand and price. When you know something isn’t going to last forever, the sensible thing for a small country to do is to make hay while the sun shines and convert the profits into long term investments. Just like Norway has done.

    233. Papko says:

      Papko @1.47, I think your response, as far as I understand it, is proof enough of brainwashing.

      Or were you being ironic?

      I wasn’t being ironic , just wondered why I am “brainwashed” and you are not.

      We both live in the same country,etc, and visit WOS.
      How could a Martian tell us apart?

    234. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ian Brotherhood. Spot on, I remember many moons ago, when i was involved in some non violent protest movement that we had the initial meeting of like minded people from various Nationalist organisations. After a month or so of ahem operations, the feds got hold of one of the girls and questioned them. The Yoons new about our initial meeting and everybody at it, we had been infiltrated from the very start. Just as well we weren’t up to anything dodgy 🙂

    235. Joe Kinnear says:

      Sturgeon making it up pish every day during this period and apparently speaking for Scotland.

      We had her statement that we get £10 back from Europe for every £1 we put in, yet the leave £10bn net loss on our contribution she called a “lie” despite it beings the government’s own figure; we had her statement that adopting something like the Australian points system or similar would increase immigration! (And she kept a straight face); we had Brexit making IndyRef2 “inevitable”, but seemingly no longer; She then calls out her own side of remain for scaremongering, then scaremongers more than anyone in the ITV debate … then she wants to build “progressive” left wing alliances, but remains committed to being controlled by an increasingly centre-right neo-liberal Europe committed to ‘sound money’ and austerity across the Eurozone. Then she decides that the second chamber House of Lords is more of an undemocratic threat to “governing” us than the undemocratic European Union who actually do govern us.

      Then we have to have uncontrolled and welcomed all immigration, despite acknowledging problems in her constituency in Glasgow for housing, health and schools, but her answer is to spend yet more money on public services despite criticising the £1.6tn debt, and Sturgeon recording a record budget deficit in her own backyard of 10%+ of fiscal gap. Yet the solution is to spend more to end austerity. Unbelievable dross from an FM.

      Sturgeon’s ‘solution’ to the lack of democratic consent or accountablity over major areas of public policy (like migration policy) is to ignore the democratic deficit and presumably to let the ‘free-market’ in movement to do whatever. After all the EU is ‘progressive’ along with Davie Cameron, Georgie Osbourne and the City of London and all the other rogues of the UK establishment. On top of that she endorses Project Fear mark 2 yet will swear its she is blue in the face that those arguments from the “experts” are right in the context of Brexit but totally bogus in the context of independence!

      One has to take her utterings seriously, as they are so incoherent, contradictory and her language confrontational and always divisive (we have to win over Unionists wakey wakey screaming evil Tories isn’t enough now). Now we have iScotland keeping the pound, with no UK currency union. It’s getting worse.

      Sadly no-one around the SNP seems to want to acknowledge any of the above. As a supporter of Scottish independence Sturgeon has to raise her intellectual game ASAP.

    236. DebzoHighland says:

      Looks like my Wee Black Books will be getting a page 66 added, with a link to this post noted! Surely, at least some of the 55% are wiseing up by now?

    237. heedtracker says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      12 June, 2016 at 11:18 pm
      @heedtracker –

      No sorry I don’t. Who would want their collective conscience though. Why almost the whole of Westminster wanted to go to war with far right Bush America is probably beyond any comprehension. They clearly left Sadam’s regime in charge after the first Gulf war for all kinds of stability reasoning but to go back in with likes of Bush and Chenney is an appalling war crime that they will all get away with. Maybe its just the psychosis of power. Tony and Gordo became psychotic with war, no planned outcome and regardless of the loss of life. And yes men like this

    238. Thepnr says:

      There is nothing “dodgy” about wanting Scotland to become an Independent country.

      No, nothing whatsoever.

    239. Thepnr says:

      @Joe Kinnear

      Sadly Joe, I doubt that many reading Wings will heed your words of wisdom. It may be that you need to raise your intellectual game ASAP.

    240. robertknight says:

      How do you know when Cameron is lying? His mouth moves! One example being when he, (along with Major, Blair and others), claimed that Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. Utter bollox…

      The Edinburgh Agreement (2012) resulted in the UK Govt. promoting an Order in Council under Section 30 of the Scotland Act (1998), enabling the Scottish Govt. to claim constitutional legitimacy for the referendum held on September 18, 2014.

      Without a repeat of the Edinburgh Agreement, the Scottish Govt. can’t hold anything other than a ‘consultative’ referendum, which could be challenged in the courts and boycotted by Yoons, leaving the result anything but legitimate.

      Given a Tory majority, (which wasn’t the case last time ’round), Scotland isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, whatever the result on the 23rd, unless UDI is on the cards – and given the odds, that’ll never happen.

    241. Onwards says:

      Joe Kinnear – Do you think the UK is going to negotiate Norway style access to the EU single market without signing up for freedom of movement and EU legislation like they do ?

      In that case, the UK would have the same immigration and none of the influence.

    242. HandandShrimp says:

      Sadly Joe, I doubt that many reading Wings will heed your words of wisdom.

      LOL – I certainly felt no pressure to do so. 🙂

    243. Papko says:

      Could not believe what I was reading @ Joe Kinnear !

      Sums it up as well, what I find most amusing is that you get folk talking about “Brexit then declare UDI”

      And I think,its taken 5 years to fix the price of cheap cider,and 4 years, for this “renaming of a Social workers job description”, (which I am prepared to give it a try,but when?”

      Local income tax and Land reform, will go the same way, fudged into oblivion.

    244. Hamish100 says:


      If you believe shit your end up spouting it.

      The people of Scotland are sovereign. No wee pretend parliament in England will defeat us.

      If we want it we will get it. If yooniists don’t turn up that’s their problem.

    245. ianbrotherhood says:

      Aw maaaaan,

      Just did it again…

      Tuned-in to Radio North Britain to get the midnight ‘news’…

      They don’t do midnight ‘news’ on Sundays.


    246. Grouse Beater says:

      Joe Kinnear: “Sturgeon’s ‘solution’ to the lack of democratic consent or accountablity over major areas of public policy (like migration policy)…

      Oh, do run along, you stupid little man.

    247. maxxmacc says:

      Norway is not a member of the EU. Just saying like.

    248. robertknight says:


      Come on Hamish… Do you honestly think that…

      1) The Tory UK Govt. will give a green light to a 2nd Indy Ref.?

      2) The EC will come within 100 miles of a Scotland intending to declare UDI in order to join the EU?

      I’d hope you’d have more intelligence.

      The 55% *ucked us over. It’ll be bitter-sweet to have Scotland vote 65% Remain and have the UK vote 55% Leave, then see those some of the 55% bitch like hell about Scotland being dragged out of the EU against the will of the majority.

      Chickens coming home to roost…

    249. carjamtic says:

      IB & GB

      Is tonight,informal auditions for ‘The Bawbag’ ?

      Spoilt for choice 🙂

    250. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @carjamtic –


      Being a natural diplomat, I couldn’t possibly comment…


    251. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      As far as I’m aware, there is no need for the sovereign people of Scotland to declare UDI.

      All it needs is a majority of the people of Scotland to support the repeal of the Treaty of Union, which would be carried out by the Scots’ elected government. Thus we return to the pre-1707 Status Quo – two separate, independent kingdoms.

      Or ummawrang?

      Perhaps the constitutional EXPERTS could comment?

    252. Thepnr says:

      Ach well, takes all sorts. Bawbags too, myself included.

      Know this though, none of YOU bawbags will ever change my mind that Scotland will become Independent. Despite you.

      Put that in yer pipe. LOL Bawbags.

    253. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s Scotland’s high value exports that Westminster is after. Just think of the rUK’s balance of payments, with a gaping black hole where Scotland’s produce once was.

      Perhaps not so odd that relevant essays on colonial exploitation, no longer appear to be available from The Orwell Prize? Is this an ongoing revision of history? Now that would be ironic.

    254. ronnie anderson says:

      Here we go again why are people replying to Joe Kinnear, & other Trolls leave them to stew in they’re own pish.

    255. Still Positive. says:

      Interesting point BrianDoontheToon.

      The Scottish Parliament with a pro-indy majority could very well vote out the Treaty of Union.

      Please do so.

    256. Grouse Beater says:

      Carjamtig: “Is tonight,informal auditions for ‘The Bawbag’?

      Correct. I should just shout ‘Next!’ and add, don’t call us, we’ll call you.

      This whole immigration hysteria is another version of ‘the commies are coming!’

      And as for the variations on “I’m a staunch independence supporter, but Sturgeon is destroying all our hard work” – somebody punch its lights out, will you? Thanks.

    257. robertknight says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Matters ‘Constitutional’ being ‘Reserved’ and Westminster being ‘Sovereign’, any Bill in the Scottish Parliament concerning the Constitution would not receive Royal Assent and without being elevated to an Act of Parliament would have no legal standing whatsoever. Westminster could legally and legitimately ignore any such ‘legislation’ in the knowledge that the UK Supreme Court would support such a stance.

      What other course of action would be left but UDI?

      Can’t see much appetite for that even if dragged out of the EU, and the Greens would likely balk at the very suggestion, so no majority currently exists for such a Bill being passed in the first place.

    258. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi robertknight.


      You have to bear in mind that this article was published on 28th April 2015 so the mention of 29 SNP MP’s was overtaken by events in the general election, where 56 SNP MP’s were elected. Here’s a wee snippet from it:-

      “…and brings us to Lord Cooper’s point of Law in 1953 that Scots Law and constitutional practice does not recognise the concept of the ‘crown in parliament’ being sovereign as this is a singularly English legal and constitutional concept, a legal point conceded on the UK Parliament’s behalf by the Lord Advocate.

      Further this legal and constitutional point made by Lord Cooper puts paid to any concept of the Scots being subsumed by England Parliamentary practice as has been long claimed and presumed. The UK Parliamentary constitution is (and always has been) a fudge which seeks to run two very different legal and constitutional systems in parallel for the mutual benefit of both parties. (McCormack vs Lord Advocate 1953)

      Who actually exercises control of the ‘considered will of the people of Scotland’ in the UK Parliament, Lord Cooper suggested, was purely theoretical and unlikely to be tested within the UK wide party system then in place (1953) across the UK, as any Scottish representation was beholden to their main UK party’s manifesto.

      When you get your head around this key legal and constitutional point, you understand why Ms Sturgeon’s Gioconda smile is un-shifting in the face of all the hostility from the opposition politicians, media, commentators and their attempts to claim the SNP will be beyond the pale and isolated. This is because any Bills, Acts or Statutes effecting Scotland can not pass the UK Parliament without the agreement of the ‘considered will of the people of Scotland’ which will, with 29+ SNP MPs, be in the SNP’s hands – even if the Tories and Labour do form a grand coalition at Westminster.”

      Access the whole article here:-

    259. defo says:

      “They have as much oil as we do”

      As in, the royal usage of ‘we’ ?

      A slippery lot.
      All in it together when it comes to saving casino bankers bonuses, or pooling and sharing/pissing away ‘our’ oil bonanza.
      But when austerity was forced upon ‘us’, the West, by fuck it was the lower orders who paid the price.
      Government by sociopath.
      We !

    260. Grouse Beater says:

      Robert Knight: “without being elevated to an Act of Parliament would have no legal standing”

      It’s not an Act of Parliament that alters society’s thinking but a collective mindset.

      We believe a pound note has value only because we believe it to have value. Stop believing that and it’s a worthless promissory note.

      In the same way, if a majority feel Scotland is a mature country with an international outlook they’ll want to exercise the liberties that issue from that situation, and they will make their perception felt in every walk of life. Sadly, that’s not yet the case. The majority feel we are too insignificant a country to stand on our own two feet.

    261. Papko says:

      “All it needs is a majority of the people of Scotland to support the repeal of the Treaty of Union, which would be carried out by the Scots’ elected government.”

      Why did we go through the 2 year referendum campaign then ? when there was a more direct route.

      reminds me of watching Lord of the Rings , and at the end , the Eagles came and lifted them out. why did they not fly in on the backs of Eagles in the first place, and dropped the ring in from a height.
      Save all that bother with dangerous journeys and all your friends dying.

    262. Smallaxe says:

      This awful Scottish Government should stop messing about with
      bridges,they have disturbed all the Trolls and it seems they
      have all came on here tonight.Where is Big Billy Goat Gruff when we need him.?

    263. robertknight says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      All that, interesting as it is, seems to me to deal with matters from Westminster which concern Scotland, not matters from Holyrood which concern the UK.

      Anyway, off to bed, or under the bridge as some suggest…

    264. Dr Jim says:

      The terror of the trolls becomes more frequent as their own terror of Independence draws nearer
      Every time an Independence boost happens “Boom” they appear on WOS to tell us we’re all Fools I tell you Fools

      So predictable

      BTW Scotland can hold a legal referendum anytime we choose
      the precedent has been set, it’s the chosen route of the SNP in order to be unchallengeable
      However there are other routes available politically, but those are fraught with legal challenge

      In event of Brexit there will be as there is going to be shortly a quick public and civic conversation with all stakeholders in Scottish business both public and private Churches and all of civic society on the merits of Independence then on that public and civic acceptance of the situation a Referendum will be held, no ifs no buts and with the co operation of the UK Government and I can tell you now they won’t even put up a fight, they’ve already admitted to losing the next one

      It’s done sorted and will happen so get used to it Yoons, it won’t hurt I promise, well, a wee bit at first

    265. Petra says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood at 10:24pm …..

      I don’t think you’re being paranoid at all Ian. Far from it in fact. Scottish Independence poses a massive economic and security threat (and more – too long to list) to the integrity of the UK and you can bet your bottom dollar that every last member of the SNP, every pro-Independence supporter, posters on here, Facebook, Twitter and so on are on the GCHQ list. Independence politicians and people like Stu, Craig Murray, Kavanah, Ponsonby, Robertson, Sheridan etc etc will head the list. We’ll ALL be ‘covered’ by our very own ‘spook’. Not unlike Nazi Germany when you think about it.

      You’ve obviously read about the secret reports leaked by Snowden re. GCHQ, it’s programme named Milkwood, the Scottish Recording Service (SRC) and the latters access to mass surveillance from UK secret services. Reported in The National on Saturday and in the Sunday Herald. And now of course we know that the Tories joined by their Labour cronies have just passed the Investigatory Powers Bill – Snoopers Charter. No hiding place for anyone at all now, that’s for sure.

      As to Wings being taken down or no longer existing for whatever reason well I don’t know. I hate to think about it to be honest. Some people would post on other sites such as Wee GDs, Grouse Beaters, Craig Murrays, Ponsonbys and so on but the key aim and absolute strength of this site would be lost, that is combatting media lies, propaganda, on a daily basis.

      I’m sure that if this site was hacked into and ‘disabled’ in some way it would be up and running again in next to no time however the site needs Stu and that’s what concerns me. I worry that he’ll take ill, get fed up with it all or whatever … I worry for his sake in the main but (selfishly?) for us, our cause, too. I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes at all. Does Stu have someone working with him who could take over the site? Does he require extra funding to employ such a person? If not he would get it in a heartbeat. He just has to say.

      Anyway let’s just hope that my ‘worries’ are totally unfounded and that we get our Independence ASAP. Then we can all put our feet up and take a wee rest …. after the party that is. The spooks, and their pals on here, will get a bit of a break then too and then will have to regroup / reshuffle / reprioritise to move onto their post-Indy phase snooping.

    266. Macart says:

      @Ian B 10.51

      ‘Where would we go?’

      This is an address, a virtual meeting place and talking shop and its host one of the most read commentators and media monitors out there.

      How and ever look past what the Rev has achieved in that role to what has become of the readership over the past four years and the role the host has played in that process. Wings is no longer simply an address IMO. Its a community, a family and a politics/media savvy educated one at that.

      Anything happens to this site, they’ll gravitate to another and yet another and yet another. And if they close down? Then new ones will spring up. Thanks to the YES campaign and Wings get togethers, many folks on here have become friends and formed connections over the piece.

      Folks who like each other always find a way to stay in touch, come together and communicate. Once you have a big enough idea… 🙂

    267. yesindyref2 says:

      Robert Knight is correct as far as the Scotland Act is concerned, It;s in Schedule E – matters reserved:

      1The following aspects of the constitution are reserved matters, that is—
      (b)the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England,

      however (firstly):

      2(1)Paragraph 1 does not reserve—
      (a)Her Majesty’s prerogative and other executive functions,
      (b)functions exercisable by any person acting on behalf of the Crown, or
      (c)any office in the Scottish Administration.

      and then secondly there’s the interesting fact that Winnie Ewing “reconvened” the Scottish Parliament after nearly 300 years – in the presence of HRH Queen Elizbeth, the Hedad of State, who didn’t contradict it.

      The Scottish Parliament, adjourned on the 25th day of March in the year 1707, is hereby reconvened.

      So basically (in theory) all it needs is for the Scottish Parliament to vote to repeal the Act of Union with England, and rescind the Treaty of Union, and Lisbeth to approve it for some odd reason. Since she accepted the “reconvening” of the Scottish Parliament, she might just have a problem refusing assent, or it would at least give the Privy Council a sore head or two.

      Incidentally, the Scottish Parliament adjourned in 1707, but didn’t reconvene that year. The Scottish Parliament was dissolved by Royal Proclamation, through the streets of Edinburgh. The legality of that I think is questionnable, but IANAL.

    268. yesindyref2 says:

      @Still Positive
      I think it possibly could vote out the act of Union with England, and the Treaty of Union, the problem is getting it accepted internationally. With a referendum that turned a 55% NO vote, I doubt they would, so as a minimum there’d be years of wrangling, similar but worse than the problem Macedonia had with getting its name accepted by the likes of Greece.

      Practically it needs Indy Ref 2, but it’s nice to speculate about the SG dissolving the whole thing with a one finger salute. Though whether the Presiding Officer would refrain from ruling even the debate out of order, is kind of doubtful.

    269. Dorothy Devine says:

      Thanks Macart , I was getting quite depressed by folks worries about a vanishing Wings – but I also see that a vanishing Wings is what would be aimed at by the establishment ,silencing opposition and promoting ill feeling across the board.

      Almannysbunnet, you just reminded me that I have some Aitkens “rollies” in the freezer -nae Rhynie ones but their no bad!

      Ask for rowies in a bakery nowadays and you are corrected to butteries – I find that quite disappointing!

      And for those of you who have never tasted a “rollie” you diven’t ken fit yer missin’ – a delicacy without compare!

    270. schrodingers cat says:

      the times are a changin’

      once, a floury, bap or a rowie was what the rest of scotland called a roll

      an aberdeen morning roll was a buttery

      got caught out many times asking for “hauf a dozen rolls” to make ma pieces…

    271. Ken500 says:

      Gove lies. The family still live in the same house. Most of the fishing families went into the Oil industry. The Wood’s, the Craig’s and made a fortune. Multimillionaires. Osbourne (Gove) have lost thousands of Oil jobs. Taxing the Oil sector at 60/80% when the price had fallen 75%. It is still 40% tax.

      Scotland was promised FFA/Home Rule, Federalism. Where is it?

    272. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 at 4:52am …. ” The Scottish Parliament adjourned on the 25th day of March in the year of 1707.”

      That date, 25th March, seems to crop up quite often in Scottish history. It stands out for me because it’s my birthday. Kenneth111 slain at Monzievaird 1005, Malcom11 crowned and Robert the Bruce declaring himself King on Moot Hill – crowned at Scone 25th March 1306. Then of course our proposed Independence Day 24th March 2016 …. a day out.

      While I’m on the subject of dates I came across some research findings relating to studies carried out by Edinburgh University. They mentioned that if the Referendum had been held later in the month we would probably have won it. On the one hand extremely annoying. On the other hand very interesting indeed. I’ll see if I can dig out the data later.

      Anyway I better move as I’ve got loads to do today including dealing with a christening, a funeral and a wedding … no Coronations!

      Oh and as to Indyref2 I’ve read that we need only to apply to the United Nations to do that … go right over Westminster’s head.

    273. Breeks says:

      I want to see Scotland’s legal fraternity fully extrapolate what the AXA vs Lord Advocate ruling in the Supreme Court physically means for Scotland.

      As I understand it as a layperson, after devolution, AXA challenged via the UK’s Supreme Court whether the devolved Scottish Government had the power to make law. The ruling was that the devolved government was elected by the people, but critically, unlike in England, that the will of the Scottish people was sovereign, and sovereign in perpetuity. The Supreme Court, the “apparent ” highest court in the land, thus had no jurisdiction to overrule laws made by the Scottish Parliament.

      It strikes me that is a massive issue of tremendous significance for Scotland, like so many other constitutional issues, the impact is being played down, and the abuses it typically exposes are suppressed and underplayed.

      For example, I do not understand why the McCrone Report does not provoke riots in the street, that is until you realise how many people still don’t know what the McCrone Report is. It feels like a storm that has yet to break.

      Don’t misunderstand, I don’t want riots in the street, but I am equally alarmed at the UK State’s capacity to affect suppression of such issues. Is that down to their effectiveness manipulating the media we see? Or is it our failure to properly articulate the injustice to our own communities?

      The only forum where I see the matter discussed is in blogs, or below the line comments. Where is the formal reaction? Where does rumour and conjecture end and hard, fast truth begin?

      I’ve heard there were Lawyers for YES. What was their opinion? What IS their opinion?

      I am very concerned that referring to law is something the Scottish Government does reluctantly because of the cost implications. If that is the case, it is absurd that a country cannot get access to its own law to defend its own constitution and legal status. No wonder we are so easily governed by a Union so dismissive of our best interests, but perhaps we have only ourselves, and our curiously recalcitrant legal community to blame.

    274. Macart says:


      There was never a need to worry Dorothy. 🙂

      Wings is a place that came about because of an idea, a driven and intelligent host and a collective will/need.

      People always find places when the idea is big enough and the collective will is strong enough.

    275. Breeks says:

      Doesn’t that mean we have a devolved Scottish Government which can make laws which cannot be challenged by the UK’s Supreme Court? The Devolved government can thus make whatever laws it wants to, and only be held accountable by the Scottish people.

      We don’t need any UDI. The power is already in our hands. It is simply dormant.

      Am I right or wrong in saying so?

    276. Dorothy Devine says:

      Just dropped in to see the headlines of the Herald – I wish I hadn’t bothered.

      JK Rowling shoehorned into the misery in Florida.

    277. Almannysbunnet says:

      Joe Kinnear (Joke in ere), yer not subtle enough, stop wasting your time.

    278. orri says:

      Does JK give a fuck about the other 49 people killed and those injured in Florida? Seriously, it’s not all about you hen.

    279. roonie anderson says:

      @ Dorothy Devine Diz it matter how its sliced.Rowie’s or Butteries tere Mmmmmmmm onyhows,lol Enjoy.

    280. orri says:

      I very much doubt those praising Snowden would do so if their name had been put on a list of informants or contacts and released unverified. Man’s a dickhead. ” J’Acusse ” or “Jack Hughes” was the key to a story I once read about how to strategically release misinformation in order to spread paranoia and disrupt an enemy.

    281. Breeks says:

      And last wee point, if the UK Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over the will of Scotland’s sovereign people, then what greater jurisdiction does the European Court possess to interfere with us either?

      We, the people of Scotland don’t have the power to abdicate our own sovereignty, it is ours in perpetuity, nor does any court, government or monarch have the power to wrestle that sovereignty from us. What we lack is basic schooling to understand the sovereignty we have, and most of all, how to use it.

    282. galamcennalath says:

      That’s it, Leave will win. Brexit is on its way.

      Labour are taking charge of the Stay campaign.

    283. Capella says:

      @ Cameron B Brodie
      Interesting article on Orwell and British colonial rule in Burma. You need only substitute “Scotland” for “Burma” to get a good idea of how colonialism works nearer to home. The constant interchanging of “British” and “English” is a bit of a giveaway too.

    284. ronnie anderson says:

      I,ve been added to The League of Grumpy Auld Greetin Faced Bastards on I,ve had many Highs & many Lows on this road to Independence,at times I dont know if im on the Lowroad or the Highroad but I know wan thing am never giving in tae they Pure Evil Bastards of the British Gov.

    285. Dr Jim says:

      They love their vows and promises of more, the political classes don’t they

      Michael Gove now telling us we’ll be stronger safer faster than a speeding bullet and more powerful than a locomotive if we all do what he says
      Cameron’s pitch now has turned to the desperation threat now that he’s a bit behind in the polls

      Who to believe, what to do, confusion reigns, and then like a wee light coming on your head you think
      These same guys threatened me and my country with plagues of doom of biblical proportions if I didn’t do what they said last time and once they’d got what they wanted they buggered off and told my MPs and other elected representatives to bugger off too because England was in charge so shut up you horrible little scrotes

      Once again when you cut through it all, the desperation to cling on to the ownership of Scotland shines through like Moses coming down from Mount Olive In the Ten Commandments Cecille B D Mille style

      You have to wonder at all the folk who voted NO for reasonable reasons of fear or trepidation last time and think, Have these folk not noticed this pattern by now, I’m not talking about the dyed in the wool mental Yoons, I mean folk who just made their decision on what they thought was a more likely truth

      In the words of the poster boy

      You YES yet

    286. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Galamcennalath Ha Ha Ha awe they big hitters,pass roon the Corperate Media papers they big shitters need they,re arses wipe’d.

      Btw do you know how the englanders cricket team,s are doing.

    287. Andrew McLean says:

      ronnie anderson says:19:17 am

      Ronnie grumpy old men are angry for no reason, believe you me, we have plenty to be bloody angry about!

    288. Tinto Chiel says:

      @galamcennalath: thanks (?) for the link. What a thing to see at breakfast time.

      Looks like he’s dropped his all his rowies, too.


    289. Breeks says:

      …And one last, last thing about that AXA test case…

      Why does it fall to private UK company and their lawyers to test the boundaries of our devolved Scottish parliament?

      Doesn’t it strike you as something we ought to be doing? Or correction, ought to have been doing?

    290. schrodingers cat says:

      remain project fear
      i think that cameron has been scare mongering, it is how politics is now done in the uk, after all,it worked in indyref1…

      thing is, it isnt all scaremongering, we know some facts. If brexit, then the uk takes back control of its borders and will restrict movement of people across its borders. this is something westminster has the power to do. Indeed, taking back control of the UK borders is, for most people, what this referendum is about. This issue for bojo, or any politician, will not be negotiable. the people will have spoken.
      So whatever deal bojo does with the eu after brexit wont be like norway or switzerland, their access to a free eu market comes with the free movement of eu citizens across their borders.

    291. Ruby says:

      Thepnr says:
      12 June, 2016 at 10:48 pm

      The Blue Tories together with the Red Tories walked hand in hand through the lobby in the HoC last week to pass a bill that allows them to record ALL our internet usage, ALL our phone conversations and ALL our private lives.

      Private lives, don’t make me laugh. No Ian, your not paranoid.

      Ruby replies

      Does anyone know anything about VPN’s?

    292. I am sure the unionists -particularly those here in Scotland- will be trying to come up with some explanation,any explanation, as to why Cameron praised a successful independent wealthy oil rich Norway.

      And I wonder how many of those proud Scots who voted no watched Cameron’s interview with Marr?

      Did they forget this is that same Cameron who along with all those other unionists spent two years telling us that Scotland couldn’t afford to be independent Nation.

      All the barefaced lies, the scare stories and of how little value the oil is worth.

    293. Ruby says:

      ‘Simply put, VPNs make using the Internet safer. When you connect to a VPN, the service changes your IP address, prevents anyone from eavesdropping on your online activity, and makes it harder for online advertisers to track you. It’s especially useful for using the Internet while traveling or performing important activities—like online banking—while connected to public Wi-Fi networks. There are also political activists who rely on VPN services to get around government censorship and communicate with the outside world.’

    294. Ruby says:

      More info on VPNs.

      Apparently people have been using VPNs in order to watch Netflix which aren’t available in the UK.

      ‘But Netflix and others are starting to make that more difficult. In my most recent round of testing, several VPN services were blocked by Netflix.’

      What I find interesting is that there is always someone coming up with a way to get around these censorships. Netflix might block VPN’s but then someone will come up with another solution!

      Vive l’internet! More power to the Geeks!

    295. Ruby says:

      I suppose if you were desperate to watch the BBC i-player and it wasn’t available in your country you could use a VPN.

      I recently tried a VPN and it is super easy to use!

    296. schrodingers cat says:

      Tor or “The Onion Router” is a service created to allow people to anonymously browse the Internet. It is a decentralized system that allows users to connect through a network of relays rather than making a direct connection. The benefit of this method is that your IP address is hidden from the sites you visit by bouncing your connection from server to server at random, in essence, losing the trail.
      While your data is encrypted along each of the relay nodes, the final connection point at the last relay in the chain can be compromised if the requested site does not use SSL. Tor has a known drawback of substantially slowing down your browsing because of the numerous hops your data is relayed through. For those concerned with the prying eyes of the government, Tor was created in conjunction with the U.S. Navy and is still used by many government agencies. Because Tor has been widely used by political dissidents, journalists, and even criminals, many governments are watchful of Tor users. This could potentially lead to you being earmarked as a criminal type and having all of your online activity monitored.

      A Virtual Private Network is a network connection that enables you to create a secure connection to another location, thereby allowing you to appear as if you were in another place. Your computer creates an encrypted virtual tunnel to the VPN server and all of your browsing appears as if it is coming from the VPN server. All of the Internet traffic goes through this encrypted tunnel, keeping your data from being exposed to eavesdroppers between your computer and the VPN server.
      It is imperative that you choose a quality VPN service that does not store data or communications logs. In the event that a government agency demands the VPN provider to reveal logs, users would be exposed. Furthermore, it is important that the VPN service implements proper load balancing and server randomization so that users always connect to a different VPN server.

      A proxy, like a VPN, directs your traffic via another computer instead of your own. While there are public and private proxy servers, only private proxies, usually paid, provide any type of stability or reliability.
      The primary proxy protocols in use today are SOCKS and HTTP/HTTPS. SOCKS and HTTP proxies provide no encryption, whereas HTTPS proxies offer the same level of encryption as any SSL website. However, proxies were not designed to protect all of your Internet traffic, usually only the browser. Furthermore, many proxies pass the user’s original IP address to the destination site, making them unsuitable for security or privacy conscious users. Finally, proxies must be configured separately for each application (email, browser, third-party apps) and some applications may not support them.

      Tor and VPN
      The two can be used in conjunction with one another for an added layer of security, however this will dramatically slow down service due to Tor’s method of randomly sending the connection through many servers throughout the world. However, it is imperative to use a VPN so your data is encrypted in that a VPN is used to keep data secure. A VPN provider that does not keep logs is equally important.

    297. DerekM says:

      Run for the hills Scots some fool has let big crash broon out his cage.

      A wave of pish is coming vows and atlantacists together better for ever pulling and sharing broad shoulders savoir of the UK, EU and world it was Labour what did it.

      SNPbad see the people love us they voted for remain in Scotland Labour comeback new improved branch office win cries the big burd and other slabbers on yoonland tv and bum paper.

      Haha if thats the best you have got slabbers you should just give it the fuck up lmao.

      Not very good these kipper trolls are they DO AS I SAY hrmph why wont you listen to your masters plebs we know best big SNP bad vote leave,subtle guys lmfao

      Its a toss up who are thicker slabber or the kippers even i am not going to risk a bet on that 🙂

    298. Ruby says:

      It’s a pretty sad state of affairs when you have to fork out money to protect your privacy from ‘The Big Brother UK Gov’

      schrodingers cat
      ‘It is imperative that you choose a quality VPN service that does not store data or communications logs’

      I think EU rules state all data must be stored. Better to look for VPN provider outside EU.

      This NordVPN sounds good.

    299. ronnie anderson says:

      Wee Black Books delivered (200) , me & the young delivery driver counted them as the box was bust open (199) he got one & directions to WoS site.

    300. Valerie says:

      I’ve never given much thought to surveillance, because I live a very boring life.

      However, everyone is probably likely to be presumed as anti gov’t on this site, so I’m most likely burying my head and need to revise my attitude.

    301. Valerie says:


      Like many, I’m resigned to a tsunami of pish washing over us, in the last 10 days.

      The clunking fist is a master purveyor of pish, and will be deployed now.

    302. cearc says:


      ‘The League of Grumpy Auld Greetin Faced Bastards’, eh?

      You’ll have been in one of your good moods then?

    303. Breeks says:

      Look on the positive side… If MI5 follows our collective Internet traffic, MI5 might eventually find itself having to weed out some hard core YES sympathisers from within their ranks. They are only human, and the truth is just so addictive.

    304. cearc says:

      From Craig Murray,

      ‘If we did see Brexit, I would argue for Holyrood MSPs and Scotland’s Westminster MPs to meet together as a National Assembly and declare Independence, to be followed by a confirmatory referendum, the object of the Delcaration being to maintain the rights of Scots as EU citizens. There would be a great deal of international sympathy for that, and as I have continually explained, as a matter of firm and indisputable international law you achieve Independence through recognition by other states, not by any arrangement or otherwise with the residual UK. ‘

      A Brexit vote in England changes everything. Whereas the EU might not recognise iScot against the wishes of the UK member state, with the rUK leaving I reckon they would be only to eager to support iScot.

    305. heedtracker says:

      So whatever deal bojo does with the eu after brexit wont be like norway or switzerland, their access to a free eu market comes with the free movement of eu citizens across their borders.

      And the UK will still need the 4.5 million immigrants to keep the UK going. That’s what old whatshisface on BBC r4 Today, John Humphries, kept hitting Liam Fox with this morn. Fox just kept saying “yeah but at least they wont be EU, I mean, at least we can choose where we get them from.”

      Leap into the abyss with Liam Fox and Mike Gove? How much of a UKOK catastrophe can toryboy world make of this one.

    306. Wull says:

      Petra says:

      13 June, 2016 at 7:56 am

      @ yesindyref2 at 4:52am …. ” The Scottish Parliament adjourned on the 25th day of March in the year of 1707.”

      That date, 25th March, seems to crop up quite often in Scottish history. It stands out for me because it’s my birthday. Kenneth111 slain at Monzievaird 1005, Malcom11 crowned and Robert the Bruce declaring himself King on Moot Hill – crowned at Scone 25th March 1306. Then of course our proposed Independence Day 24th March 2016 …. a day out.

      Hello, Petra. A little addition, of no importance, just for your information: in the medieval period (and certainly when Robert Bruce was enthroned as king) the 25th March was New Year’s Day. Bruce therefore became king on what was then reckoned as the first day of of the year 1306.

      Both at that time, and even now, in the Catholic calander 25th March is the feast of the Annunciation. In other words, the feast of the Incarnation – when Christ was conceived, God becoming man.

      Which is ‘logical’, even in ‘bio’-‘logocal’ terms, since Christ’s birth is celebrated exactly nine months later. The 25th December was and is Christmas Day.

      The ‘Annunciation’, or ‘Incarnation’, was seen as the beginning of something completely new. I suppose that is the reason why the 25th March seemed an appropriate day for the New Year to our Medieval ancestors. Not only in Scotland, of course, but also, as far as I know, all over Western Europe.

      Just thought I would mention this to you, Petra, since your post also mentions that you are having to deal with christenings, weddings and funerals at the moment, but no coronations. Enjoy your birthday next time it comes round, and Happy New Year to you as well – even on that very same day, if you want!

    307. ronnie anderson says:

      @ cearc Ha ha am always in ah good mood. Hope your in ah good mood am putting your name doon as weil.

      Wan thing kin be said aboot me am no sexist lol.xx

    308. Dr Jim says:

      @ Valerie

      I wouldn’t worry too much about sneaky government folk watching you Valerie there are far too many REALLY bad folk out there for them to be bothering about the likes of us lot

      We’re on the easy access interwebby thingy giving out about our politics not about being dealers in death to the world

      Even at that the sneaky folk aren’t very good at being sneaky or they wouldn’t keep missing half the Nutters they do and I honestly don’t believe there are enough sneaky folk to deal with anything anyway
      For all we know they could be staffed by office juniors and unpaid interns and a load of donut munchers for bosses who couldn’t give a monkeys

      Let’s hope if there are any sneaky folk watching us they’re Americans coz that lot couldnae catch a cold in a flu ward

    309. Dr Jim says:

      The Irish Foriegn Affairs Office has announced a 25% rise in applications from England Scotland and Wales for Irish citizenship and passports since the Brexit Referendum polls show in favour of Leave

      So if you want to do that you only need a Granny or Granda or relative somewhere in the past and you’re welcome to be Irish, so come into the parlour, they say

      I don’t think it means you have to actually go there
      Funny how quickly folk will just jump to even change their Nationality and it made me think, do these folk deserve a vote on a National Issue when they don’t even care what Nation they belong to

      It’s a crooked twisted old world

    310. Capella says:

      Euro 2016: 150 Russians ‘behind’ violence”, says the BBC. Not those “British” fans having a quiet drink in Marseilles.

      So the surveillance is pretty good is it not, picking out 150 Russian ruffians among all those fans. It will be a travesty of justice if “Britain” gets ejected from the tournament.

    311. Mr Gove said earlier on Monday that more powers would be devolved to Holyrood in the event of a UK EU exit and hinted that more control over immigration could be given to the Scottish Government.

    312. Mr Michael Gove is in Scotland campaigning for Brexit said earlier on Monday that more powers would be devolved to Holyrood in the event of a UK EU exit and hinted that more control over immigration could be given to the Scottish Government.

      Ahh, yes the more powers ploy, does anyone seriously believe him or any other Unionist, when they fought tooth and nail to prevent Holyrood gaining any meaningful powers whatsoever?

    313. TD says:

      Dr Jim at 12:15

      I wouldn’t be so complacent Dr Jim. The primary purpose of the security services is the preservation of the UK state. The only current existential threat to the UK state is the Scottish independence movement. I would be astonished if they were not watching carefully. If a few people got blown up in a terrorist incident, that would be tragic and the security services would be as horrified as the rest of us. But it would not threaten the existence of the UK. If Scotland goes independent, the security services will have failed in their primary mission.

      Do you think the security services, such as they were, took no interest in the Irish situation in the late 1800s and early 1900s? Do you think the Scottish independence movement poses a greater or lesser threat to the UK than the members of Harold Wilson’s cabinet in the 60s and 70s many of whom were spied on by MI5 while they were in office? Do you really think that they will not have files on Nicola Sturgeon, John Swinney and the rest of the Scottish Government?

    314. Edward says:

      In a similar vein , has anyone noticed that Michael Gove
      is merrily spouting lies and twisting facts and has not once been pulled up by our glorious media.

      Twisted Fact (and a lie) Is the one where he blames the EU
      for his father losing his fishery business in Aberdeen. We were even treated to camera crew in his fathers house to reinforce the story. Fact is it wasn’t the EU it was the Heath government in the 1970’s and again Thatcher in the 1980’s that sacrificed the Scottish Fishermen.

      An article about Heath’s deception and sacrificing the Scottish Fisherman appeared in the Scotsman in 2003 with the headline “Heath knew policy would kill fish fleet”

      Blatant Lie 2 – Gove claims that Scotland ‘could’ control immigration if it votes to leave the EU. Except as Gove should know that Immigration is actually reserved to Westminster and is something that Westminster could have changed at any time before now

    315. carjamtic says:

      ‘The Firefighter’

      ‘Leadership,Bravery and Technical knowledge are tested on an everyday basis….They cannot hide behind Rank,A Desk or an Email’.

      Firefighters,Nurses etc. do not do it for the money,they get enough dosh so they can get by,but there is ‘something’ else or why else would they run into the burning building when everyone else is running out,why else would they treat people who may possibly have a transferable virus.

      I come to read,post on WoS as it is a ‘safe place’ by that I mean,not propaganda,the BBC/MSM are ‘unsafe places’ in the respect that,they spread lies,half truths,misinformation to suit the UKOK neo-liberal agenda and the thing is,they do it knowingly.

      They are,mere ‘ambulance chasers’ when it come to news about Scotland,so some say, there may be risks posting stuff on WoS,but I say,that most of the BTL posters,have like me Social Democratic Values,who for example,want fairness and equality,for the vulnerable,in among,lots of worthy goals/ambitions and to achieve these goals,truthfully by democratic process (this is not wrong,infact it is very,very right).

      Don’t want to big this up too much,if there are risks,then that is all the more reason to speak up,IMO you will learn more on here,than the BBC/MSM who have ‘sold out’ and who have alienated me.

      More power to your elbow Rev. and all the BTL posters…..massive respect.

      P.S. Dinnae go anywhere.

    316. carjamtic says:

      P.S. Unlike the firefighters and nurses who risk their lives everyday,’in the line of fire’,to me commenting on WoS is nothing by comparison,with the notable exception of the Rev. and other named persons,who have earned,my utmost respect.

    317. Breeks says:

      @ Capella 12:36

      I wouldn’t take the BBC’s word on anything, but there could be some substance to the claim. Best avoid doing it near meal times, but Google HooligansTV, and you open a window onto organised gang violence and club thuggery with a predominantly Eastern European flavour to it. Philosophy seems to be anything goes between consenting adults, and best watch out if you’re a non consenting adult who gets in the way, or have either a vehicle or a business caught in the crossfire.

      I’m not letting the English fans off the hook, because hoolganism isn’t called the English disease for nothing, but I am open to the possibility that reaping what you sow has an open time frame which isn’t altogether predictable, or, perhaps the English hoodlums perhaps missed their bus or didn’t plan ahead for Marseille. Or maybe some of them did…

      Who knows? Maybe in a few years, free for all cage fighting for podgy savages might be a bigger feature on sports TV than football, but for now it’s a feral activity with its own unpleasant underworld.

    318. Dr Jim says:


      You’ve changed the question from that of interest in folk on WOS expressing an opinion to one of UK involvement in tapping our politicians, I was only answering the first question

      If you wanted an answer to your question as to what I think or know about that you could have just said so instead of conflating two things in order to make a point which I wasn’t addressing

      As to your point, I do know that our politicians phones were tapped and I do know computers were monitored before and after the Referendum,
      I also know that complaints were made to the UK Government by our politicians and those complaints were rejected even though they were addmitted to by GCHQ

      No Labour party phones were monitored or Tory or Lib Dem

      No mitigation or excuse was offered by the UK Government for this abuse,and these were open questions in the HOC, the answer was a simple

      Tough shit

    319. Tam Jardine says:

      Dr Jim

      Re applications for Irish passports increasing- I would never have thought I would agree to my bairns taking joint Irish citizenship but after the last few years my eyes have been opened. If I could ditch my UK passport I would in a heartbeat but unless you have a grandparent born in Ireland (Northern or Republic) you need to be resident 5 years.

      I would make an important distinction between your actual nationality and what appears on a travel document. My actual nationality is Scottish but that is not what appears on my passport or birth certificate. Sooner we get a Scottish passport the better.

      It would be more of a surprise if there wasn’t an increase in applicants- I would be wary of thinking this adds up to any more than people wanting a fallback option. It does however suggest the ties to the UK state for many people are loosening.

      I think in many cases this will be people who put off applying for joint nationality for years and this has spurred them into action.

      I wonder if the opposite is true ie if there are large numbers of EU citizens applying for joint UK nationality? It seems less likely but you never know!

    320. Capella says:

      @ Breeks. Point taken. But from viewing the RT footage a few days ago I would say that England definitely won the chair throwing competition. Mainly through their skills in possession.

    321. Ruby says:

      I wonder what will happen in the even of Brexit re EU workers who are already employed here?

      Will their employers have to terminate their employment and how will they go about checking whether someone is a British national or not?

      In view of the fact that the Borders Agency or whatever they are called don’t even know how many illegal immigrants there are in the UK they are going to have their work cut out for them tracking down EU workers who remain. Then there are the children who are at school or who were born here.

      It could be a big mess!

      I think I’ll set up a matchmaking service between British workers being forced to leave the EU and EU workers wishing to remain in the UK. They can all get married and live happily with their dual British/EU passports.

      The other thing I was wondering is what Farage will do re work in the event of Brexit. Farage is probably entitled to dual German/British nationality so unlike all his supporters he will be able to work in the EU.

    322. TD says:

      Dr Jim at 1:36 p.m.

      This was the statement you made that caught my attention:

      I wouldn’t worry too much about sneaky government folk watching you Valerie there are far too many REALLY bad folk out there for them to be bothering about the likes of us lot

      I think that is naïve. I don’t believe I was conflating anything – I simply chose different examples of the sort of action security services take.

    323. kat hamilton says:

      down at the clyde valley today, have a coffee amongst the wrinklies. true to form the outside garden area has the britnat bunting bedecked everywhere…indy 2 needs to engage with these citizens though i hae me doots you’ll shift any of these ‘proud buts’ to indy scotia…very sad and depressing…

    324. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thanks, yes a similar situation, IMHO. Those links weren’t available when I posted but I get them without any problem now.

    325. Petra says:

      @ Wull says at 11:55 am …. ”Hello, Petra. A little addition, of no importance, just for your information: in the medieval period (and certainly when Robert Bruce was enthroned as king) the 25th March was New Year’s Day. Bruce therefore became king on what was then reckoned as the first day of of the year 1306.

      Both at that time, and even now, in the Catholic calander 25th March is the feast of the Annunciation. In other words, the feast of the Incarnation – when Christ was conceived, God becoming man. ……..

      Enjoy your birthday next time it comes round, and Happy New Year to you as well – even on that very same day, if you want!”

      Wull thanks so very much for taking the time to post that information. Very interesting indeed. It’s also made me realise that the choice of Independence Day this year …. 24th March 2016 …. would co-incide with what would have been New Years Eve. This was also the date of the Union of the Crowns (March 24th 1603). Wonder if Alex et al chose it for that reason?


      @ schrodingers cat says at 10:54 am …. ”TOR or “The Onion Router” is a service created to allow people to anonymously browse the Internet. It is a decentralized system that allows users to connect through a network of relays rather than making a direct connection. The benefit of this method is that your IP address is hidden from the sites you visit by bouncing your connection from server to server at random, in essence, losing the trail.

      Drawbacks: While your data is encrypted along each of the relay nodes, the final connection point at the last relay in the chain can be compromised if the requested site does not use SSL. Tor has a known drawback of substantially slowing down your browsing because of the numerous hops your data is relayed through. For those concerned with the prying eyes of the government, Tor was created in conjunction with the U.S. Navy and is still used by many government agencies. Because Tor has been widely used by political dissidents, journalists, and even criminals, many governments are watchful of Tor users. This could potentially lead to you being earmarked as a criminal type and having all of your online activity monitored.”

      I used TOR for a time SC because I was having constant problems with my PC, including being hacked into, leading up to the Referendum. I eventually dropped it altogether because the problems ‘IT seemed to be creating’ were far worse that those I had experienced beforehand (too lengthy to go into). Suffice to say I definitely wouldn’t recommend it.

      Additionally I doubt there is anything out there, on offer, now that can combat Secret Service surveillance experts / equipment. For example, I was reading (The National) that John Finnie, Green Party Justice Spokesman and Former Police Officer, had stated that ”as the Tories and Labour trooped through the lobby at Westminster to pass the Investigatory Powers Bill we learn from a leaked report from 2012 that GCHQ don’t need these new powers anyway – and that tells you all you need to know about how out of hand this industrial intrusion on citizens’ privacy has become.”

      Big brother is here and it would seem that there’s little we can do about it. So just keep on trucking.

    326. Grant says:

      ¨Down The Toilet Together¨

    327. Peter Wyper says:

      At least the 120,000 ex oil workers can now become teachers – sorts out John Swiney`s problems – any surplus can be exported to Norway – result

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