Unbonnie Dundas
Posted on
June 13, 2020 by
Chris Cairns
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13 06 20 08:57
Unbonnie Dundas | speymouth
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Belter Chris
Always noticed that all these grandiose monuments become toilets for birds, the pity is that they hadn’t used the originals. Laugh my head off at Andrew Carnegie every time I pass him. Earned his money off the backs of terrified staff. We could say he was the last Victorian Philanthropist, I doubt we will see much from the present day money hoarders.
Classic “toon” Chris.
Nice one.
Perhaps mocking the racists (or dumping on them) is more effective than pulling them down. Mind Scotland has a few statues to those behind the clearances that I do think should be pulled down – the ‘duke’ of Sutherland on Ben Bhraggie springs to mind. A cruel, evil, obnoxious man, who has no place on any plinth.
Whilst some seek to denounce any and all statues however, it is worth remembering their are some good ones. For example, I wish somebody weould move the statue to James Clerk Maxwell, from the centre of George Street, Edinburgh, into a much more prominent location. Typically, it is just surrounded by parked cars and few notice it.
He was, without doubt the greatest scientist to come from Scotland, and indeed the UK. A true genius, way ahead of his peers. He was praised by Einstein, with the result that he is termed ‘Scotland’s Einstein’. Yet there he sits, surounded by parked cars and ignored by ALL tour buses in Edinburgh. Sadly, many in Scotland don’t even know who he is.
https://www.famousscientists.org/james-clerk-maxwell/
In addition (and this would upset the loony London worshipping unionists), I’d love to see a full size replica of the Bruce statue at Bannockburn, placed right in the centre of Edinburgh. He was Scotland’s greatest king, helping to free Scotland from English tyranny and invasion.
Great cartoon Chris! While I am all for now ‘de-statuing’ our country of people who made their money exploiting others as slaves or low paid workers, I hope the job does not end there.
Never in our history has there been so much wealth concentrated in so few hands. Show me a millionaire and I will show you a criminal! I would much more like to see the tearing down of off shore tax havens, rigorous tax investigations and criminal charges brought against these monsters.
They think they are above the law and their so called ‘philanthropy’ which is there justification for not paying tax is an outrage. Since when do these billionaires get to play God with our lives, deciding what causes to fund and not fund.
The capacity to accumulate wealth must be capped otherwise our democratic society is doomed.
Indeed Robert
Richard Feynman. The great American theoretical physicist stated . In a thousand years when all the great physicists including Einstein are forgotten one man will still be remembered for his contribution to science. James Clerk Maxwell.
Einstein – “.. when he visited the University of Cambridge in 1922, was told by his host that he had done great things because he stood on Newton’s shoulders; Einstein replied: “No I don’t. I stand on the shoulders of Maxwell”.
I agree with Robert Louis that it is time to put the statues of those who deserve our respect in prominent places. The wealthy appear to buy their place in history.
It is time that the statue to Sutherland came down.
Absolutely Julia.
Your cartoon reminded me of Percy Shelley’s “Ozymandias”
`I met a traveller from an antique land
who said:
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
stand in the desert.
Near them, on the sand,
half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
and wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
tell that its sculptor well those passions read
which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
‘My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!’
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
the lone and level sands stretch far away.`
i suppose we are all Ozymandias
Ah yes,’Robert the Bruce, the racist king’ brought to you by the producers of “trans women are women”.
It’s a funny old game, Saint.
Dundas was a reactionary who was very successful against Napoleon and those he saw as fifth columnist,however, he was not a racist. When Joseph knight established the incompatibility of slavery with Scots Law. It was Henry Dundas that led his team. Of course the vast majority of slaves in Scotland at that time were families of Scots tied to mines. Dundas subsequently worked to free them. Because of the Napoleonic wars the UK was unable to enforce abolition on their colonies, however, Dundas was able to get a bill regulating the slave trade through the Commons but not the Lords. He had hoped that by regulating the flow of slaves he could make slavery uneconomic and his second bill did this, though it took sixteen years. The statue in George Square was paid for by the officers and men of the Royal Navy who benefited from his naval reforms, which let to both Trafalgar and the abuility to regulate the slave trade.
Only in Scotland would most be unaware that Dundas was hellbent on squashing his own people – the working class. His actions against the radicals including one of the greatest Scots ever born – Thomas Muir – is largely unknown and yet slavery (terrible though it is) is what he is now known for.
He practically ruled Scotland and had a massive role in denying universal suffrage and the Highland Clearances too.
“You don’t know your own history” I was told by a little old lady from Bulgaria once when canvassing. And it’s true, we largely don’t. She spurred me on to learn.
🙂 Thanks, Chris!
Robert Louis at 8.04am:
Thanks for this. I’d never heard of Clerk Maxwell (why would I ever have heard of a genius Scot, for God’s sake?)
I continually learn about brilliant Scots geniuses and, while I initially enjoy a great rush of pride, I also feel a sense of ‘loss’ having been denied him or her.
Incidentally, Robert, you omitted to mention it’s Clerk Maxwell’s birthday today.
Happy Birthday, genius!
Nice work, Cairns, as always.
Julia Gibb says:
13 June, 2020 at 9:02 am
…It is time that the statue to Sutherland came down.
Meh.
Strikes me it’s premature to remove the grotesque evidence of Scotland’s subjugation if we are not prepared to overthrow the grotesque subjugation itself.
British rule is right now removing Scotland from Europe against it’s will. That’s the Colonial “monument” of our generation; the latest manifestation of British arrogance and dominance forcing it’s will upon Scotland, and it’s that which properly needs overturned and shattered before the cement is even dry.
Sadly we elected a weak and feckless “Government” to defend Scotland’s interests which capitulates without a struggle and is complicit in our subjugation and the abandonment of the Indy movement and momentum it established in 2014/15.
If “they” tolerate Brexit without a fight, and we tolerate them, then we are selling out nobody but ourselves.
I am tired of peripheral distractions. It’s high time we cut to the chase. Scotland urgently requires a Constitutional Backstop; an uncompromising ultimatum delivered to Westminster that Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation through Brexit constitutes a breach of the Union Treaty, and if / once finally established, it will mark the end of the Union and the United Kingdom will be no more.
What do you think are the odds of Sturgeon doing that?
Yes Chris the pigeons and gulls would sorely miss those statutes.
There’s a call for Glasgow’s Egyptian halls, architect Alexander Greek Thomson, to become a slavery museum. I suppose we could move the offending statutes into it. One problem I foresee though is where do we stop on removing statutes, for instance would we put statutes in of folk who say indirectly profited from slavery?
What about modern day forms of slavery as well, for instance people paid a pittance, in sweat shops to produce goods clothes etc, that we buy cheap and take for granted from our local retailers.
Removing the major offending statues and putting them in a slavery museum is a good idea though, let’s see if it materialises, or not for that matter.
When I read some of the comments online today I am reminded of Palmyra. I wonder should the Pyramids come down?
We are looking for Utopia, but we will create Dsytopia.
Like Terry, we don’t know our own history. Education is the answer. We need to teach about our history and society. I still don’t understand why every party before Election say they’ll fix education. Anybody notice it happening yet. No, because we reality doesn’t want it fixed. Keep the masses arguing amongst themselves, feed them drivel and untruths. We need cannon fodder.
The Etonian government looks inept, but they are controlling everything behind the scenes. It’s all really quite sophisticated. And it’s going their way.
Dont know if anyone seen the Mandalorian? But, “this is the way”.
Talking about statues, anyone any thoughts about the statue of the late Donald Dewar on prominent display at the top of Bath Street.
Now I’m no fan whatsoever of Labour but Big Donald did play his part in restoring the Scottish Parliament, albeit a devolved Parliament. Would anyone object to Donal Dewar being on display. I wouldn’t.
But then turn to another Labour politician like Tony Blair. A contemporary of Donal Dewar and Gordon Brown from the same era of government. Would one object to a statue of Tony Blair. Well here it becomes a real issue as much as commemoration to a slave trader. . Blair participated in and was responsible for an illegal war that slaughtered millions. Would it be acceptable to put a statue up to Blair.
Or what of his adjutant the Chancellor of the Exchequer one Gordon Brown who facilitated the money to wage expensive war. A statue to this great moral son of the manse. Well like most of us I think not.
So where do you stop. How does society register its disgust at individuals who perpetrated dark deeds, deeds that may have been acceptable a couple of hundred years ago, but not now. Removing statues might be one way. Or changing place names might be another. But st the end of the day, education is the key because only by education will people be able understand the horror of what some people did.
Pull down Donnie Dewar’s statue, or the Herriot Watt University ( removal ) of a plaque to Alex Salmond, I think not, absolutely not. But if a statue were to be erected in remembrance of luminaries in the current Scottish Government who have been doing so much to promote GRA, would the decision be the same.
Me, I think Dundee city have got it right with a prominent statue of Desperate Dan. But in these entitled time maybe he should be Desperate Daniella!
There’s a large and imposing statue of William Wallace in the centre of Aberdeen with his famous words on not owing loyalty to Edward I engraved along the base as well as the Declaration of Arbroath “as long as 100 of us remain alive”. Aberdeen City Council, in 2014, decided to place large flower troughs around the base of the statue obscuring the words. AFAIK they’re still there. That’s the rogue Aberdeen City Council coalition of Labour and Tory councillors keeping out the largest group, the SNP.
https://images.app.goo.gl/zzPTF7b8ASTs9DGZA
There’s also a very impressive statue of Robert the Bruce on his charger standing outside Marischal college which is now the Headquarters of Aberdeen City Council. They haven’t managed to get rid of it yet. But give them time.
https://images.app.goo.gl/b7wfV51YKZ6tQqZz9
Someone writing in today’s National to the effect that the (co?) author of the Scotland Act, Donald Dewar, snuck in Section 30 without consultation.
Designed to keep Scotland firmly within the ‘Union’.
There is a lovely statue of him (Dewar) outside the Glasgow Royal Concert Hall – a monument which gives hope and encouragement to feckless wonders everywhere.
There must be a few scrappies who could submit a quote to cash-strapped Glasgow Council.
Monday marks 12 weeks of lockdown.
It takes 12 weeks to train a human – whether its military service, going to the gym, eating a healthy diet – do it religiously for 12 weeks and it will be with you for a lifetime.
Of course, it may be too late, but this could be the final weekend to try to break it. The consequences of inaction are dire.
You may never leave your home again without anxiety or panic attacks – or you may well try to manage that through substance abuse – your life will be worse off than before, by a considerable mile.
Worst Case Scenario – If you have kids/grandkids you will never hug them the same way again, for you will always be wary of your fellow human, as if it is somehow diseased. The Human in you will have died – COVID will have done it’s job without even visiting you.
Stop the madness – go see family, shake hands, hug, kiss, forget the past 12 weeks ever happened. Don’t delay.
Slavery came to these islands at the time of the Romans ,if not before. There is nothing unique about it .
However, centuries of belief that somehow these captives were inferior human beings is hard to eradicate. Racists exist among us and have education aplenty.
If you can tell me in all honesty that minorities have just as much entitlement to the benefits enjoyed by white folk then fair enough, but if you look deep into your soul I think you will know the truth of that claim.
My own father was racist in terms of who he felt was acceptable. Black,Pakistani, and even some Irish got a bad word from him. I grew up with that. Every other skin colour was either lazy,dirty, or here to take over our businesses.
Education was my saviour to some extent, as was personal interaction. Even today we hear of expressions of Taigs,Huns etc
White racism against white. Perhaps it’s just a human condition after all.
Doesn’t make it right though. Maybe watching those in ethnic minorities work tirelessly to protect us during Covid has opened some eyes at least. I hope so.I
Great cartoon Chris. This status business,if nothing else,gets us thinking about our last and current values.
I need to stop watching what is passing as UK TV News.
I’ve just had 15 minutes on Sky of how the Queen has lead
Us through this crisis?
Another suggests just seeing the Queen lift the spirits of the whole nation.
It also seems that this showing of the regimental colours to the Queen at
Trooping of the colours is the proudest day in the soldiers lives?
What and we give these people live ammunition?
It’s a Welsh regiments turn today and they have come of Covid testing duties
Supporting the NHS to work on a special marching formation for today that
Will keep each soldier 2.2 meters apart at all times.
Will their colours be torn down due to their mass murder of the Zulu Warriors
Protecting their own indigenous lands?
Well their deaths did help the UK King to buy a few extra bits of bling.
So many brainless fools in this country revel in all this crap?
If I get to America on holiday I’m going to say I’m Irish.
“Talking about statues, anyone any thoughts about the statue of the late Donald Dewar on prominent display at the top of Bath Street.”
Willie.
This is interesting with regards to Dewar, though not in a good way.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/stolen_oil
Misprint. Statues not status. Though they are somehow connected.!!
The idiot is back.
Only in Scotland would folk be having a discussion about whether it was appropriate to replace the statues of figures like Dundas, or change street names which glorify our thraldom like Hanover Street, George St, Frederick St or our part in colonial subjection and the slave trade like Jamaica St etc.
Those arguing against such moves as re-writing history are the political and moral equivalents of the Spaniards opposing the removal of statues of Franco or the renaming of Spanish streets and squares honouring falangist “heroes”.
Whatever happened to the nation which produced the Declaration of Arbroath?
O tempora, o mores indeed!
@Terry 9.40: quite agree. Dundas ran what we would now call a vicious and vindictive police state in Scotland to crush dissent and any notions of democracy espoused by the likes of Thomas Muir, who suffered abominably along with many others. It would be fitting if Dundas’s statue were replaced by one of Thomas Muir, actually, and a delicious irony.
His amazing life would make a powerful film in the right hands but dangerous concepts like Scottishness, democracy and egalitarianism mean it wouldn’t get off the ground in the UK.
Perhaps an American “Hamilton”-style treatment might work to popularise his story but it doesn’t really need any jazzing up, since parts of it are almost incredible.
@ Effigy – sadly, the state broadcaster missed the 80th anniversary of St Valery yesterday. That’s the occasion when the 51st Highland division were sacrificed to let the rest of the British Army get home from Dunkirk.
There was an online programme produced by Poppy Scotland. But no official tribute, as ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=D8-qj6b5X9o
@ Tinto Chiel – so true. Thomas Muir’s story is so amazing that nobody would believe it if you produced a film! The British nationalists would be screaming about “historical accuracy” before discovering that he really did do all these incredible things.
But he is better known in the US. His speech at his trial is said to have influenced the founding fathers in writing the Declaration of Independence.
Terry at 9.30
Dundas was not a rich capitalist but a successful politician. It is instructive to note that shortly before Dundas’s deaths no less a reformer than Robert Owen was in conversation with him with regard to measures to alleviate the sufferings of the poor.
Bob Mack
Maybe you should brush up on your Shakespeare;
sins of the father……..would you post the N word?, no, but you see fit to post the words which offend our own.
The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
O/T
I’ve not really commented on COVID-19… While the UK have messed this up beyond monumental proportions, I think there is a lot of misinformation circulating and it’s hard to get a grip on things.
This is a very interesting watch from the USA and I’m not suggesting this is what’s happening in the UK as we have a very different healthcare system.
But given the lack of knowledge of this virus, I would just say to everyone if your loved one is getting put on a ventilator maybe question if it’s the right thing to do.
It’s You Tube and I don’t think we can link You Tube on here so just giving you the title below to search for:
Perspectives on the Pandemic | The (Undercover) Epicenter Nurse | Episode Nine
@Capella: indeed. I’m thinking of putting in for the main part if a film ever gets off the blocks: I feel I have the looks for it 😉 .
Just a bit down this morning. Are we Scots just too full of apathy to care what s happening to us.Are we becoming like the Indians in America and the Aborigines in Australia who turn to drink/drugs as their culture and heritage and hope is taken away from them. Will we ever again get of our knees and stand up for ourselves and respect ourselves once more as a free and fair country?.
@ Tinto Chiel – you have a remarkable likeness – it’s uncanny!
Perhaps Diana Gabaldon will do it when she gets through 8 years worth of Outlander filming. We can forget about the State Broadcaster ever getting round to it. Or if they did they would probably portray him as a dangerous revolutionary. Transportation would be the kind thing to do.
Scozzie
Fair comment, but some of us new that 2 months ago – those walking out of hospital had high flow oxygen therapy – those who went to ICU and onto a ventilator went to the mortuary.
The Great Tragedy is that no-one in our ‘heroic NHS’ was saying so. Only the Bakersfield Doctors over in the US came out in public and were subsequently shadow banned on YT, same as everyone else with an alternative narrative, regardless of their credentials.
Look!….A Squirrel
Scozzie
Knew that……not sure where I got ‘new tha’t from!…..and I don’t even have a hangover 🙂
Capella,
I seen a bit about it on TV where it was the brave Scots from
The British army who were selected to stay behind and aid the
English escape from Dunkirk.
I wondered if one of the 2 surviving soldiers actually had a go at being
Left behind to fight and die but the BBC would of course edit out any facts.
If you watched the movie Waterloo again you would see that the beginning of
2 aspects of the battle begins with send in the Scottish Bastards.
We were used to try and use up the bullets and cannon and reduce the enemy
Numbers before the English soldiers were engaged.
We know about the First World War where over 25% of UK fatalities were Scottish.
For younger readers, we have never had anything like that percentage of the population.
I was on holiday in Sicily a couple of years back and on a tour the guide explained that an elite
German Troop of German soldier were based there during world war 2.
They worked with the Italian army there but when Italy pulled out of the war the Germans wiped
Their soldiers out.
The Island was invaded by a combined UK and American assault.
The English secured and stayed in the main liberated city, and the Americans a more flat rural region
Following the shore line.
The Elite German Troops entrenched themselves in the very steep mountain terrain where they had
Clear sight of any potential attackers.
You will never guess the solitary nationality of the regiment sent up to try and capture the German
Fortifications and face inevitable and excessive casualties.
The Scots seemed to be held in high esteem by the guide and locals who knew
the size of the task we faced and the courage of these men.
Funny who you need to travel to remote areas of foreign lands to find out
Scottish history and correct the great British Army’ recollection of events.
@ Scozzie – haven’t watched the video but I posted an article from the New York Times a few weeks ago saying that the real problem was low oxygen levels which people were unaware of until it was too late. I bought a pulse oximeter from Amazon – they were quite cheap then, and easy to use.
http://archive.is/Dc4UU
Boris Johnston was treated with oxygen when he was in hospital. He was never on a ventilator.
Republicofscotland wrote on 13 June, 2020 at 10:28 am:
“Talking about statues, anyone any thoughts about the statue of the late Donald Dewar on prominent display at the top of Bath Street.”
“Willie. This is interesting with regards to Dewar, though not in a good way.”
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/stolen_oil
__________
Thanks for the link, interesting, i absolutely love Richie Reid’s stubborn tenacity. Very admirable! Thanks to you for the link & to Richie for his unyielding determination. 😉
@Capella
We now have the option of commemorating Armistice Day by wearing red, white or purple poppies – or any combination thereof. Indeed some will not wear the former, such is their antipathy towards Earl Haig.
Why not have a tartan poppy to honour the largely unheralded efforts of the Jocks? The disbursement of proceeds could be overseen by those free from Whitehall dogma.
Stoker as your name tops the post
How far down did you manage to get I gave up after about 10 apologies for the FOI delay , I think the same guy must be involved in the Revs inquiry regarding the contempt of court fiasco recently , I admit these people are fkn experts at shovelling shit .and brick wall building, that leads to dead ends , fkn experts .
Thanks for the information I would recommend it as bed time reading for insomniacs
Essays on colonialism;
‘Settlers and colonists’ by Alasdair Gray. In ‘Unstated Writers on Scottish Independence’. Edited by Scott Hames and published by Word Power Books 2012.
‘Colonialism is a Crime’ (17 March 2017) and ‘Englands Neo-Colonialism’ (12 August 2017). On grousebeater.wordpress.com
‘Does Brexit vote underline Scotland is not a country, but a colony?’ (5 July 2017) by Alf Baird On news net.scot
@Willie Hogg – thks for the clarification which, along with the judgement by his peers, begs the question whether this blame stuff is just another pile of nonsense or more ra*ist allegations and defamatory chaos from the usual suspects:
From the following
https://ewh.org.uk/iconic-buildings-and-monuments/the-melville-monument/
Why then would anyone build a monument to this ‘monster’? In fact, the monument was paid for, not by the government, but as a plaque on it records, ‘by the voluntary contributions of the officers, petty officers, seamen and marines’
James F McIntosh 11.14am. Yes, Yes, and No.
@ Effijy @ 10.27am
Yep and she’s doing a good job of SHIELDING her son…..when the Epstein story broke Queenie made sure everyone, especially the media, were made aware of HER position…she had Andrew sit with HER in HIS first public appearance after the story broke…in HER car… when she went to Sunday church.
Her message could not have been clearer if she had shouted it through a megaphone….Hands Off…a Royal pardon….indeed.
The numpties who put this family on a pedestal clearly have not been alert during their reign….scandal after scandal….yet we are supposed to bow down to them as if they are uber virtuous…meanwhile while we are all currently dealing with the harsh reality of lockdown… they are in the privileged position of isolating themselves in one of their many luxury residences that they hoard.
Though Prince Charles seems to think he is above complying with the rules imposed via STAY AT HOME ( in his case HOMES)…and swans about all over unchallenged….indeed he broke the fundamental rule of NOT going out when he had Covid symptoms…but then he did only travel up to Jockland…so no damage done….
Meanwhile Wills and Kate are on a damage limitation PR exercise by playing the Good Royals…the Caring Royals………..the Volunteering Royals to offset Andy…the Bad Royal…the Uncaring Royal and the one who thinks he is above the law…..as does Queenie.
As long as we have the Royals sitting at the top of the tree we will never get any kind of social justice …..they preserve the continuation of the ‘Bwitish’ class system by their existence…
Not looking for a revolution just an admission of reality without the fantasy when mere mortals, as in the Gweat Bwitish public and the Bwitish media, extol the supposed virtues of the ‘Royals’ when the reality is they are THE elite who live in a world far removed from their subjects…both the loyal ones and the disloyal too.
God save us from the Queen…..
ahundrethidiot @ 11.20am
If you watch the video you’ll see that oxygen therapy still in most cases leads to ventilation. This may just be down to poor medical practice as she is very skeptical of the medics approach in this particular hospital…
But what’s she’s advocating for as experienced in her ‘home’ hospital was that high dose vitamins, zinc and hydroxychloroquine was having a much better effect in her home hospital in Florida with do deaths.
Never mind renaming things and tearing down statues. Instead let’s try and do something about our subjugation and the squandering of our potential. I had never heard the statistic about a quarter of all WWI casualties being Scottish before but it’s hardly surprising. Let’s hope that in the future Scottish boys won’t be killing innocent people abroad for the British state.
Besides, there would be something satisfying about having Dundas looking down on an independent, democratic, left-wing Scottish republic. Revenge is a dish best served cold!
I was surprised to hear that he helped abolish slavery, I guess that shows history and people are rarely as straightforward as some would like them to be.
James F. Macintosh-
Don’t despair. Our leadership might be crap but we’re getting there slowly but surely. A terrible time for the whole world at the moment, keep your chin up.
Now let me get my Saturday morning Woke head on.
So just to check if our erstwhile wingers are awake do folks not have concerns about the Lobey Dosser and El Fideldo statue in Woodlands Road, Glasgow.
I mean in these Woke enlightened times I’m surprised that no one has gone to the Nth degree of a fart arguing about the appropriateness of man on man. Lobey was ‘ the boy’ and El Fideldo by the nomenclature of the Spanish language indicates by the ‘ el ‘ and the ‘ o ‘ that the steed is a boy too.
However, Lobey informally called El Fideldo by the shortened name of Elfie and Ellie is a girls name.
This has got me very confused and concerned. In fact I don’t know how we could have lived with this all these years. Poor Elfie constrained to a gender that was not hers. This is exactly the type of thing that the Wokes and the SNP heirarchy should be on to.
Quite frankly I don’t know how the good folks of Scotland can sleep at nights with an outrage like this.
Elfie for Gender Independence is what I say!
Clapper57-
I just don’t get it. I am not exaggerating for effect when I say that I have relatives who, if the Queen battered their children to death in front of them, would thank her.
Harry and Meghan, quite rightly, wanted away from it and some people respond with incomprehensible levels of venom. It’s insane!
An absolutely horrible bunch of people, no use to anyone.
Luckily I find that younger people have no time for it.
And so it begins ….
Bill to ban FGM blocked in Wyoming by radical trans activists..
Reason…
On the grounds it would outlaw…Gender Reassignment surgery for……..MINORS…
Nothing to see here…apart from confirmation that if you are Against GRA well this kind of confirms that YOU are definitely on the RIGHT side……watch this space indeed.
Meanwhile junior members of the cast of Harry Potter franchise continue to bite the hand that fed them…..mind you one wonders just how committed these former HP characters are to the ’cause’ against how much this is a subject which will not negatively effect them directly…as their sex (The Males) and wealth (Male and Female) may shelter them from the places us ordinary women have to frequent…..
I am sure that in exclusive designer boutiques, exclusive resorts and hotels the clientele is protected and expectations are high….as opposed to us plebs frequenting less exclusive establishments that offers less protection to our safety/privacy …..so I guess that means we female plebs cannot afford the luxury of condoning those things which will directly impact us…..or maybe it is just that we women have thought it through properly and determined it to be wrong and unjust….and risky to our safety….
If you jump on a new bandwagon….beware…it may take you on journey you did not want to go…..a message to all of the those celebrity pro Self ID warriors aka virtue signallers…hopefully someone will be around to tell them…We told you so….when the proverbial you know what hits the fan….actually believe it has already….many times….
Sturgeon’s Newsnight interview with Kirsty Wark:
Wark: When are you going to lay out a road map for another independence referendum?
Sturgeon: “Everything but Coronavirus is on hold…”.
Wark: But …you can’t ignore 52% for independence…
Sturgeon:”Well. Look: I think Scotland will become independent…The way I continue to demonstrate that Scotland should be independent is to do everything I can is to show that a Scottish government is best placed to make the big decisions that matter for Scotland”.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08gp6zj
I have an idea!!
When they’ve finished pulling down statues and banning TV shows, they could start burning books.
Like the saying goes, scratch a socialist and you soon see the jackboots.
@Willie 12.19: that gave me a laugh. I was thinking about that statue in Woodlands Road this morning when considering Dundas. The GI Bride statue in Partick station is a stoater too.
Just call me Rid Skwerr….
God knows what Bud Neill would make of Woke World.
If we got rid of all the statues and images that upset somebody, there would be nothing left standing.
I believe they should all be kept but with the history of who they are on a plaque beside them.
Real history has not been taught in schools for decades, just look at what is being shown of Scottish history, people like Maxwell, Fleming and all the other men and women, oops said that word! Who contributed so much to personkind, hope I phrased that correctly, never heard of.
Colin Alexander 12:52
Sounds like subsidiarity from Sturgeon, suggestive of federalism not independence.
She is being dishonest because she plainly has a personal social agenda.
Covid-19 has been a stupendous mask for her true intent.
If these antislavery BLM’s were really serious they’d be outside the embassies of Oman, Saudi Arabia, Benin who were at it long before the European colonialists arrived in Africa.
They might picket the Turkish one too although the Ottomans preferred to enslave Christians from the Balkans and Caucasus.
Clapper 57 @ 12.48
Hey Flapper 🙂
All these rich and shameless celebrities pontificating to us are note worthy only for not being in a relationship with a Trans person….not a One of them!
When they start including trans people in their dating pool….then mibbi they’d have something to say that’s a wee bit more than just noise…
And while we’re on the subject….which of our politicians assuring us that Trans Women Are Women and Trans Men are Men are actually in a relationship with any?
@Mist001 12.57
Presumably you’re entirely relaxed about the statues and monuments the Nazis destroyed though?
If it’s not OK for us to remove statues celebrating racists, colonialists and slave merchants, does the same apply to e.g. Russians removing Tsarist statues, or statues of Lenin and Stalin?
How about Poles and other Eastern Europeans removing memorials to their Russian and domestic oppressors?
You’d probably be the kind of person objecting to the renaming of streets commemorating fascists in Italy, falangists in Spain and Nazis in Germany and Austria huh?
Colin Alexander @ 12.52pm
What I don’t get with the NS – ‘my focus is coronavirus and nothing else’ mantra is that there’s no other government in the world purely focusing on this and nothing else.
It feels like a front, a cloak, a diversion etc.
Using COVID-19 as a ‘cover’ for avoiding answering some pretty pertinent questions can only last for so long. Not to mention using it as a ‘cover’ for inaction on independence.
The scab needs picked pretty pronto to move on and get an indication on where we stand with the SNP and independence.
The Fascist Express has catastrophe for Nicola again.
Seems NATO said an Independent Scotland may not
Be allowed to join even with polls at 52%.
Nice to know those wasting £Billions on games to protect us
Is willing to find time to threaten democracy.
I’d be quite happy not to be in NATO as our money could then
Be spent irradiating poverty, supporting the NHS and energising
The economy.
Next story for them is the shocking news that the BBC had received
24,000 complaints about them making a statement that Dom Cummings
Did break the Lockdown rules.
The BBC apologised as it was a biased statement.
In 2013 I would never have believed this of a national paper and the BBC
but there we are. Propaganda rules.
Can’t wait for both to report on the petition to sack Cummings with 1,200,000 signatures.
Aye statues and St names first on my to do list along with painting the bloody back fence .
Please forgive me for not being immersed it this outporing of indignation , ok i get it some people are offended by something boo fkn hoo join the queue ,most folk walk past these remnants of whatever every day and not notice them it takes a certain type of i am offended personality to notice them
Right in the middle of a situation that effects a lot of peoples lives my first thought is not a bleedn statue or a street name ,
I guess all over Scotland there are reminders of English generals and their deeds , ok when the appropriate time presents itself they probably should be moved somewhere else ,
But Priority’s for gods sake Please .
@RepublicofScotland
Since he passed on we cannot really know what quid pro quo pressure he was under. What powers would be taken from Holyrood or funding etc. So deciding he signed off the change on the sea border because Unionism is an unknown assertion. Maybe he won something worthwhile or headed off something unspeakable in exchange.
We do know how Blair, Brown and Campbell behaved so would you put anything past them?
I would trust Dewar over those three any day.
@ Liz G @ 1.15pm
Indeed Liz…they support them from a safe distance…but actually be IN A relationship with one who Self ID’s….now that at least would give some understanding of their ‘personal’ take on this……what’s that song..It’s a Man’s Man’s Man’s world…add a line on a verse ‘even when they self ID as woMAN’…Lol
Hope you are well….have a fabby day…raining In Edinburgh just now…actually got the heating on…Huh ?
Take care 🙂
@Scozzie: Yes I saw that video and its truly shocking. I would not be surprised if something similar but not so extreme has happened here (as yes we have a different system and I dont think cash incentives for ventilation though could be wrong). Of course the high beid yins in charge dont want you to use vit c zinc and hydroxychloroquine to treat symptoms! If symptoms treatable then the numbers can be kept up inducing fear and making it much easier for Bill Gates the saviour of the world to force his vax program through! As for our hospitals I saw this which was pretty interesting! https://www.ukcolumn.org/ukcolumn-news/uk-column-news-12th-june-2020
Anyway as for Nicola, she just has to fallow the agenda given from above! IMHO given the current chaos and division caused by certain protests recently I genuinely think it might be a good time to declare UDI. Whats the worst that can happen? We are gonna have a mega recession anyway and feel enormous pain but its possible that if we went ir alone we might reciver faster! Anyway… thats my opinion anyway!
@ A Person @ 12.24pm
Indeed you are right….my son gives not two jots for them….cannot relate to them at all…..Praise the Lord…Lol
have a nice day 🙂
Excuse the typos in previous comment! Hope u get the gist tho!
@ Andy Ellis
Two weeks ago, nobody gave a shit about any statues. A black guy gets murdered thousands of miles away in a country in which the culture (I use that term loosely) and values are completely different to those in the UK and suddenly, his death gets hijacked by the extreme left to be used as an attack on British culture.
Just a few years ago, the Taliban in Afghanistan were doing the exact same thing and everyone (or at least the ‘intelligensia’) was absolutely outraged about it.
What’s happening now is a million miles away of what that mans death was bringing about and is a million miles away from Black Lives Matter.
Socialism is essentially a mixture of communism and facism anyway and now we’re seeing the proof of that. The facists are running riot in an attempt to erase history and it’s time people should wake up to it before it’s too late. It’s happening right in front of our bloody eyes!
My heart is with Breeks @9:55, though I acknowledge plukes on plinths have a harmful impact on social cognition. So they undermine our cause.
Full text.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282447768_Decolonizing_Public_Space_A_Challenge_of_Bonhoeffer's_and_Spivak's_Concepts_of_Resistance_'Religion'_and_'Gender‘
“Frank Gillougley says:
13 June, 2020 at 9:28 am
Ah yes,’Robert the Bruce, the racist king’ brought to you by the producers of “trans women are women”.
It’s a funny old game, Saint.”
Poor Frank. Knows fcuk all.
Effijy at 1.26-
That’ll just be the NATO bureaucracy doing a favour for the British government.
Besides, I may very well be proven wrong but I wouldn’t be altogether surprised if NATO wasn’t around in a few years anyway.
Trump’s antics have made the French and Germans uneasy about the Americans’ reliability and so probably a European collective security scheme will be set up. Can’t really blame the average Yankee for not wanting to shed blood for Europeans.
I like Americans on a personal level, but I wouldn’t miss being allied with a barbaric dump of a country which is responsible for so much misery in the world.
“Two weeks ago,nobody gave a shit about any statues”
Well spotted. At least nobody white did. BAME community had been complaining about them for years without success or recognition. You see the point?
James F. McIntosh @11:14
You’re not far off the mark, IMHO, with respect to a large swath of Scottish society. Though social escapism isn’t only enabled through drink and drugs. There’s lots of Scots who eagerly participate in disposable consumerism, for example, and view the world through reality-TV goggles.
If things are going to be that bad in Scotland, we should break away now I’m sure plenty countries will try and put Buisness our way, the days of london rule are coming to an end and coming quicker than the london establishment think or want.
Clapper57 at 1.39-
You too!
Re NATO @ Effijy says at 1:26 pm
Have a quick look at GIUK Gap (on Independence Day it will become the GIScoGap
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIUK_gap
NATO know this.
It is more bullshit Propaganda so salve the worried souls of its BritNat readers.
@ Bob Mack
Did they really? That’s surprising since BAME is a relatively recent addition to the ever growing list of acronyms. BAME wasn’t known 10 years ago.
White people did complain about them, when it suited them. Most people, black, white, whatever colour you choose, didn’t give a shit about any statues.
Apart from that one in Glasgow.
News report that a group of NHS England BAME Doctors
Have signed a complaint letter that most of them still are
Not being tested for Covid 19.
How can this possibly be after 3 months of assurances and guarantees
From the liars that run Westminster?
After all 94% of the Doctors who have died with the virus are BAME?
Mist 100 @ 2.32
That’s not true….there’s been a campaign for years about the “mannie” up in the Highlands.
There’s been discussions on here about “Union”street names and British Statues the Donald Dewer statue being but one example…..We’ve also had these types of conversations around The Oueensferry Crossing and the New Southern General when they were being built….so people did notice and have opinions on these things!
Mist001
Careful now, you don’t want me getting on your case.
Full text.
How race travels: relating local and global ontologies of race
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11098-018-1148-x
@Mist001,
Don’t panic. The statues will probably stay in any event.
On the other hand we could even things up and put up nice statues of those in minority groups who have killed predominantly or exclusively white folk.
A few thousand should be plenty to calm things all round.
What do you think
Hums to self “Britain never ever ever shall be slaves”
Must be bad then to be enslaved.
@ robert graham on 13 June, 2020 at 11:50 am:
LOL! Just managed to hang on in there. Almost gave up a couple of times, especially towards the end where i did a bit of speed reading.
Bookmakers’ odds on next SNP leader.
Posted these last night – may be of interest to some who weren’t around.
Humza Yousaf 13/5
John Swinney 24/5
Michael Matheson 24/5
Stewart Hosie 44/5
Joanna Cherry 56/5
Derek Mackay 56/5
Mhairi Black 66/5
Alex Salmond 93/5
And here are the others listed, in no particular order –
Angela Constance 21/1
Keith Brown 73/5
Roseanna Cunningham 21/1
Shona Robison 66/5
Angus Robertson 31/5
Tommy Sheppard 25/1
(Don’t know why I missed out Angus Robertson last night – 31/5 actually makes him 3rd favourite overall.)
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-snp-leader
Just waiting for the call, any minute now, to demolish the Great Pyramid of Giza
Time to crack open the rubber bullets and nip this school yard revolution in the bud
I’m surprised Humza is at those odds or maybe his various recent exploits have not yet registered with the wider population.
My wife told me about her grandmother and her great grandmother back when the Ottomans ruled certain parts of Europe.
While in the fields the Turkish soldiers would simply walk in and rape any christian woman they pleased – because they were not muslim. The women mostly hid this as they feared the men would start a fight they could not win.
Then came the communists. The farmers had their lands and livestock taken for the good of the state and everybody went hungry. One old man who was a friend of my wives grandfather even said:
‘When the Germans were here, they would come to my chicken farm and take eggs for their soldiers. They always made sure to leave me some money for it. When the communists came, they took everything – my eggs, my chickens and then beat me and shot me’
To oppose the communist rule was to paint a target on your back. The communist terrorists had no principles and weren’t above any tactics in the pursuit of power.
In the end virtue, talent, decency didn’t matter. What mattered was loyalty to the Party.
Eastern Europe until recently has suffered under appalling tyranny and hardships in the last 150 years alone. Many millions dead. The soviet communist oppression lasted for decades.
Before that the muslims made ‘slavs’ out of them. Many Eastern European christian girls made into sex slaves and never to see home again and often dying violent deaths while perpetual captives.
Yet we still have people praising soviet leaders, communism, waving the soviet flag and others who defend political Islam from all criticism.
The subjugation of black people and their exploitation at the hands of brutal people and the subsequent racism with which they have been treated is just one bloody shameful chapter in a very large book full of bloody and shameful chapters of our world.
Only the most disgusting, vile and manipulative people would try to take one chapter out of that book and use it to leverage political ends.
@ Liz g on 13 June, 2020 at 2:48 pm:
Beat me to it! It’s been a bugbear of mine for most of my life, Unionist street names and statues. I’ve mentioned it before on here several times, as have others.
But i’m a very firm believer in it should just be for light discussion pre-indy. To be drawn in seriously to all of this pre-indy is just *another* distraction that our movement falls for all too easily.
Let’s get the keys to our house first then we can set about revamping the decor to our tastes and satisfaction. First things first though, let’s get those keys. Top priority!
“Since he passed on we cannot really know what quid pro quo pressure he was under. What powers would be taken from Holyrood or funding etc. So deciding he signed off the change on the sea border because Unionism is an unknown assertion. Maybe he won something worthwhile or headed off something unspeakable in exchange.”
Muscleguy.
I can’t quite agree with you there, it should not have mattered what kind of pressure he was under, gifting or selling off parts of Scotlands wealth and assets is not his right to do they belong to the people of Scotland.
Now when you look out at Carnoustie you’re not looking out onto Scottish waters, you’re looking out onto English waters, and the assets and minerals within now belong to England.
Were the people of Scotland consulted on this no they were not for they would’ve surely have shown and expressed their anger on the matter, just as they did when this forced and corrupt union was born.
Scotland has been drained of its assets for 313 years by England, readjusting its marine borders to benefit the country that’s been draining it for centuries with the help of our own parliament, is just gobsmacking to say the least.
I mean what next, I’m half expecting Boris Johnson to hold up mortgage papers in the House of Commons whilst saying, right, that’s the mortgage on Scotland paid we now own it outright.
@ Mist001 & Bob Mack
We deal with issues as they come up, that’s just how it is. American Civil rights as an issue existed before the movement started to gain traction in the 1960’s. The anti apartheid movement didn’t suddenly appear a few weeks before Mandela walked out of prison…so what?
Your gallant attempt to paint the movement to remove certain statues as morally equivalent to the Taliban is as spurious as your attempt to make it all about socialism. I’ve talked to quite a few folk locally about Dundas Junior’s statue in Melville Street, which is a few streets away. Most, including many (right of centre, centrist, anti indy, anti SNP types) whom I would never have figured as “statue topplers” were supportive of removing his statue and renaming the street.
If you can’t see the difference between the Taliban destroying the Bamiyan Buddhas and folk chucking a slave traders statue into Bristol docks, there’s obviously no reasoning with you. As with so many other issues you and your alt-right mates (who sadly seem to be infesting this site these days) opine about, you’re on the wrong side of history.
Dundas Senior might not be as easy to get to as Junior, but with a fair wind I’m sure we can look forward to replacing both him and others of his ilk with more suitable representatives of Scottish achievement like Thomas Muir, James Clerk Maxwell, Alexander Graham Bell, Elsie Inglis…I’m sure there are plenty of others?
Ian Brotherhood
Not being a bookie person, can you convert those odds into some kind of meaningful order please
I’d suggest Mr. Yousaf’s odds reflect his support for gutting Scots law.
https://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1128&context=comparativephilosophy
Pity there isn’t a statue to Neil Morris Ferguson the mathematical modeller, also describing himself as an ‘epidemiologist’ whose mathematical genius helped to land the sad BritState in the dungpile.
Now that would be something deserving tear-down.
See in a report that neither the Welsh or Scottish Govs attended Gove’s Brexit Meeting last night.
Well they were both being ignored for a long time hence.
PS:
Richie Reid’s FOI request saga up thread. Jings!:-(
Full marks for perseverance.
PPS.
Both BBC ‘UK’ and ‘England’ web sites have dropped their ‘England’ corona virus live blogs. BUT
BBC ‘UK’ web site reserve a live blog spot for both Scotland and N. Ireland corona virus news.
BBC Scotland web site also reporting as is the Welsh and N. Ireland web sites.
Anyhoo!
Todays figures.
Scotland……today…….05………Total….2447…BBC
Wales………today…….06………Total….1441…BBC
N. Ireland….today…….02………Total…..541…BBC
England…….today……*67………Total..*26927..*SUN
=======================================================
UK…………today..no data………Total..*41569..*SUN
The difference between Scotland England
https://twitter.com/weehalfpintt/status/1271790452149190658
Stoker @11.30am.
You’re very welcome.
Another thing that should addressed is Scottish Labour and the devolution myth.
When the EUs Monitoring Committee on Pluralist Democracy got round to the UK in 1996, its report was politically damning, it bracketed the UK with former communist states of Bulgaria, Croatia, Latvia, Moldova and the Ukraine. States having major problems in meeting EU standards of Devolved Pluarist Democracy.
Fed up with the UK dragging it’s heels on the matter, the Council of Europe declared that the UK would be incompatible with membership of the council, if it didn’t act towards the international norms of Pluralist Democracy.
The change finally came during the tenure of Tony Blair, after the council threatened sanctions if they (UK) didn’t comply with basic democratic principles. In short Labour rushed to set up the devolved administrations, not because they wanted to, but because they had to, or face being expelled from the Council of Europe.
It took until the June 3rd 1997, for “New” Labour to sign the charter, the last country in Europe to do so, that last sentence says it all really.
Blair described the Charter as a damn nusiance, the fulfilment of the policy wasn’t a political decision, it was a diplomatic one, Labours hand was forced not given.
The “theft” of Scottish waters only exists as an issue within the Union. International Law is quite clear on the issue. Mid point between land masses OR a horizontal line projecting from the land border.
It will be solved with Independence. As will Airspace and many, many other issues.
The Taliban destroyed the statues for effect. They had no attachment to Buddha. The UK erected them as a symbol of reverence and admiration and not because of accidental choice.
Different mjndsets.
@ Republic of Scotland & others
The maritime boundary move folk get so excited about is a red herring. It means nothing in international law.
The boundary between the Scottish and UK EEZ’s will be set post indy according to accepted principles widely used elsewhere. The most likely line will be neither the current one, or the one used before (which erred too far the other way as it was a straight line) but somewhere between the two.
Where the putative line is now is irrelevant, because we’re still part of the UK.
There is a difference between slavery and racism, though often juxtaposed.
Slavers did not (and do not) particularly care about race creed or colour – cheap labour and effective slavery is what is important. If you can be considered as less than a civilised human, so much the easier on the conscience.
Scotland did have many historic slavers who made fortunes from their business, the very important thing to remember; is that most turned to the indigenous slave trades, only after all the ‘indentured’ Scots they shipped out kept dying and they ran out of local labour of these isles to exploit.
They could not continue to strip labour locally, indefinitely, for it was also required for their domestic industry; that gap was helpfully filled by transferring Gaels and Irish and diasporas from the hinterlands.
For their overseas concerns, they naturally turned to the existing, (centuries old) indigenous slave trades to provide labour – superior labour – they tended to last a bit longer and were less prone to dropping dead from disease and the effects of the climate. Many realised a further lucrative market for exploitation and became slavers in their turn; frequently importing them back to Scotland.
Despite Dundas’ defence that slavery was incompatible with Scots Law – that was the concept of ‘slave as property’; so long as there was remuneration for labour, however paltry (as in the form.of indentured service) it was not slavery, and therefore not to be abolished. At least that way, a fellow could poach labour domestically for an extra shilling, while still operating property slavery overseas for the time being.
Ultimately, the abolition of ‘property slavery’ was passed; not so much from atruistic conscience, as to break up plantocratic monopolies domestically and to weaken the economies of overseas countries and legitimise the ‘piracy’ of foreign vessels by the Navy.
Slavery takes many forms; whether as property, impress for Navies and Armies (Dundas had more of an eye on this than anything else) inedentured for industry, or even within family (arranging marriages of convenience, or using your own child labour, is just another form of slavery and Dundas was no stranger to that either) It’s not history, it is still with us, it cares little for race, creed or colour.
Today as wage slavery, you will be quite happily papped in favour of ‘foreign labour’ whether that foreign labour comes from the ‘colonies’, or the hinterlands of your own country. Racism though, breeds when you forget it is the fault of the slaver and believe it is the fault of the ‘foreigner’ – Rid yourself of the foreigner and your job and life on the plantation will be safe.
Poor Master. Do we fancy helping him put down the pesky’ foreigners he’s forced so tearfully to deal with – Absolutely, Master where do we sign…?
I’m missing my dose of acerbic WoS tweets.
Sigh.
Rev, I hope you are doing ok.
https://www.un.org/Depts/los/nippon/unnff_programme_home/fellows_pages/fellows_papers/dundua_0607_georgia.pdf
Of course, Scotland was unable to become involved in the slave trade until political union with England.
@ Julia Gibb
See also:
http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf
A pretty detailed treatment which suggests the “eventual” line of division will be a compromise between the 2 earlier lines.
@David (3.29) –
That first list is in order, with the favourites at the top. So Humza Yousaf is currently the bookies tip.
It would be interesting to know who decides these numbers. Must be someone who the bookmakers trust to have a decent knowledge of the Scottish political scene, possibly a party insider or a civil servant. Big responsibility when hard cash is at stake and they’re not often wrong.
Does anyone here truly think it is a good idea to go around renaming streets all over Scotland? Fucking impracticable for starters.
As for statues not really bothered. However, one exception: the Duke of Wellington in Royal Exchange Square. Would Glasgow City Council really try removing it? It’s part of Glasgow culture and a major tourist attraction. I’d love to see them try.
@Oneliner says:
13 June, 2020 at 11:43 am
“Why not have a tartan poppy to honour the largely unheralded efforts of the Jocks? The disbursement of proceeds could be overseen by those free from Whitehall dogma.”
Whitehall has no say in how the money is distributed. I’ve worked with Earl Haig Fund Scotland. Earl Haig may have been a butchering bastard, but don’t try to smear the charity itself.
@Beaker 4.27pm
You think streets have never had their names changed (and often rechanged…) in the past?
However do you think folk managed then? Of course some folk will disagree and moan about it but so what..? We live in a democracy: if enough folk want the change to be made made, or they elect representatives who vote for such changes then are you honestly suggesting you think they shouldn’t happen?
You may be sanguine about having statues of people like Dundas/Melville and retaining streets named in his honour: I’m definitely not!
I’ve yet to hear any of you hard of thinking types railing against these changes explain why Germany isn’t still full of Adolf Hitler Allee’s, or Horst Wesel schools, or why it was wrong for out Eastern European friends to tear down all those statues of Lenin, Stalin, Dzerzhinsky and sundry local communist stooges.
Good luck justifying those….!
This is the 21st century, and Westminster still refuse to recognise Scotland’s legal identity. That’s effectively racist cultural misogyny, that is.
Full text.
https://www.on-curating.org/issue-35-reader/decolonisation-and-the-scopic-regime-issues.html
“The maritime boundary move folk get so excited about is a red herring. It means nothing in international law.”
Andy Ellis @3.45pm.
Andy.
I hate being the fly in the ointment, but what makes you so confident that this Westminster or any other Westminster government will comply with International laws. After all Westminster is openly flouting International law right now with regards the Chagos Islands and it’s people.
@Republic of Scotland 4.49
If we aren’t capable of making our case to the ICJ and eliciting support from the EU, UN, our neighbours (none of whom are exactly partisans of Westminster), quite apart from simply defending our own interests and asserting our rights to our own EEZ, there is truly no hope for us.
We may as well just accept our future as a glorified county of England with a colourful past and a quaint accent.
The Taliban and the Islamic state iconoclasts desired to rewrite history. They believed that by destroying it was possible to erase memory. Not so, folk memory as well as ‘fact’ endure well beyond the destruction of material artefacts.
For the literalist Islamists things before the Prophet were essentially counter-muslim consequently not to be endured. Destroy Palmyra, destroy the Buddha images and all will be as it ought to be.
Tolerance, understanding etc do not enter the mindset. It’s all or nothing. You’re wrong, I’m right.
You do not have to be an Islamist to think like that. The evil of literalism has taken flesh and lives amongst us now.
So much for civilization…. thin ice at the best of times.
Independence for the nation, the mind and the spirit.
To those who oppose changing street names. Do you think for one moment that post Indepence we will not have dozens of streets and squares changed in celebration of the event!
Freedom square, Independence Road etc etc
Union Square and Union Street will be top of my list to be “updated”
King Street, Queen Street not to my taste either.
I like the Italian idea of having piazza and “Independence date”. We could also name others for when we re-join the EU.
Why would we leave any legacy of the old Empire?
Mike Pomeo the US Secretary of State has said the US will impose sanctions on the members of the (ICJ) International Court of Justice, because the court is looking into US activities of its personnel.
This is just unbelievable, the Great Satan (USA) wants to act with impunity around the globe, and when it looks like a international body wants to hold them accountable, the tired old sanctions chestnut is once again rolled out. The self appointed world police the US, need a taste of their own medicine.
Republicofscotland
Westminster is openly flouting international law in relation to Scotland. Brexitania has been created through constitutional juresprudence that is based entirely in positive law, and is blind to natural law and socio-economic law. So Brexit ain’t compatible with social democracy. 🙁
Locating the normative within economic science: towards the analysis of hidden discourses of democracy in international politics
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057%2Fjird.2012.8
“If we aren’t capable of making our case to the ICJ and eliciting support from the EU, UN, ”
Andy.
As far as I’m aware the UN, has issued countless resolutions against Israel, with absolutely no effect, I can’t see how we’d be any different. As for the International Court of Justice, we’ll check out my 5.05 pm comment.
I certainly don’t see the US taking our side over England’s on the maratime dispute, and I’m sure you’re aware of the clout the US has with these bodies.
An extract from the link provided by @ Julia Gibb at 4:00pm
‘The primary rule for maritime delimitation accepted both by conventional law and customary law is that the delimitation must be effected by agreement. Maritime boundaries between States, to be secure and stable, have to be settled by agreement between them. The negotiation process between States is very important for the achievement of positive results. The subject of maritime boundary, like the subject of land boundary, is a sensitive one and should be handled carefully and with understanding of the opposite viewpoints.’
Applies generally to International Law. You can see why it might not always work.
Cameron B Brodie @5.05 pm.
I can’t argue with you there Cameron, you put up some very interesting links, regardless of what some in here say long may you continue to do so.
Republicofscotland 😉
@Republic of Scotland
The Israelis, unlike the Scots sadly, were prepared to fight for their independence. The US will do as it always does: look to its own interests. We should do the same. Iceland faced down the UK during the Cod War; are you seriously suggesting we are less capable than Iceland?
If you think the EU in particular, but also Norway, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands are going to support rump UK rather than an independent Scotland in future, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying.
@ Cameron
For the record, I find your constant cut and paste contributions beyond irritating and heartily wish Stu would ban you forthwith.
@ Julia Gibb 5.04
Hear, hear!
Not good what’s happened to coloured people over the century’s, it’s not that long ago that women and children were working down mines with no room to move no height, the women were left bent over their whole lives died at an average age of 42 and most of them were white, the way the great imperialist countries have treated their own people over the century’s is nothing but slavery as well as absolute greed, but they’d attend the church on a Sunday and all would be forgiven, that type of people are still here doing it in a different way.
Lockdown is the new way of life.
Mask up, glove, distance, stop being a social animal…..STAY SAFE!
Meet the Great Leader……hi ho, hi ho….
Trust us, we’re the state!
This is how I was trained to view the world, and I thought it might be helpful if I shared my perspective. Well, it’s nice to be nice. 🙂
Real Democracy
Decolonising Practices
Alter Institutionality
Politics of Life and Death
https://www.internationaleonline.org/research/politics_of_life_and_death/
Andy Ellis
So who are you and why should I care?
Decolonizing the Internet
Summary Report
October, 2018
https://whoseknowledge.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/DTI-2018-Summary-Report.pdf
The Tribute Concert to the 51st Highland division sacrificed at St Valery. I posted a link upthread but it was only to a short clip. The concert has some video footage and photos and Run Rig in concert. No Pete wishart though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqxIY2roy_A
Andy Ellis
BTW, I suggest you start backing up some of your opinion. Well, all of it really. 😉
@ Julia Gibb – well said. Union Street would be better named Independence Boulevard. Turn it into a pedestrian precinct with open air cafes and street theatre/concert area – big umbrellas to keep off the rain and the seagulls.
Ottomamboi if you and others don’t observe two meters distance rule or wear masks in shops or on public transport then we will never get out of lockdown.
Why do the BBC and MSM never tell us the actual Covid death stats for Scotland and England (because it shows Scotland is doing better)..
They are easily found at https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/#category=nations&map=rate
Today’s figures Scotland (with 10% of England’s population) 2442
while England is MUCH HIGHER at 37240.
For excess seasonal deaths check out
https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps
Scroll to bottom of page and click on the end of the blue line
or visit https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/
The reason Boris Johnson only announces the UK figure rather than England’s is that would highlight how badly they are doing even now compared to any of the other nations in the UK.
Statues of Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond replacing Queen Victoria at the corner of
UnionWilliam Wallace Terrace.My ancestors come from countries where streets were regularly renamed, things generally stayed the same…plus ça change etc.
If it’s rotten, it’s rotten to the core.
Cosmetics will not change that.
The so called enlightened West seems to be regressing.
Scotland, the home of common sense, should shun the lot.
Stu Campbell to be awarded the Freedom of Pittodrie medal.
“The Israelis, unlike the Scots sadly, were prepared to fight for their independence. The US will do as it always does: look to its own interests. We should do the same. Iceland faced down the UK during the Cod War; are you seriously suggesting we are less capable than Iceland?”
“If you think the EU in particular, but also Norway, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands are going to support rump UK rather than an independent Scotland in future, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying.”
Andy.
I’ll come to your second paragraph in a minute, as for your first paragraph, how do you expect us to face down England, are you speaking in a military sense. If so we have no military, so that’s a non starter I think. As for Iceland facing down the UK, it did indeed, but fishing boats are no match against military frigates, though it didn’t go that far.
As for your second paragraph, I cannot say for any certainty that those countries will back Scotland when it becomes independent, though I hope they will, trading circumstances of those countries with the rUK might in the future or might not favour us or them, we must wait and see how that particular die falls.
I will say this though, like Iceland Scotland has an important strategical position in the North Atlantic Ocean, so we might have more friends in an independent Scotland than we think.
It appears that the RightWing thuggery in London was organised by “Britain First”. I do wish they would be more accurate and use the correct term “England First”.
Another Union dividend I would happily surrender.
Anyone who thinks NATO wouldn’t want Scotland to be a member needs to take a look at the Atlantic Gap, a geopolitical choke point. Just name our terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIUK_gap
@RepublicofScotland
Using your own logic. How did ANY nation gain their Independence from London. Was it the might of New Zealand that saved them. The military strength of Malta? I could go on….
Here’s a map of Scotland’s sea boundaries.
https://philsteinberg.wordpress.com/2014/05/24/mapping-scotlands-waters/
Julia Gibb-
No offence but the fact that so many on here seem to think “it’s just English people that are being racist” is a sign many don’t like to confront the fact that many Scots are deeply racist and that we committed more than our fair share of the crimes of the British Empire.
We all know Scots with unsavoury attitudes and let’s not kid ourselves that they’re all unionists.
No point not facing facts.
Sorry if this sounds blunt.
Iain Mhor@ 3.47pm.
Iain.
A very interesting comment, on Dundas, I recall reading that he defended in court a slave by the name of Mr Knight, a Mr Wedderburn had claimed he (Knight) was his property. Dundas won the case and Mr Knight was liberated.
However Dundas was a very shrewd operator, he knew the mood around slavery was changing and Dundas was savvy enough to spin on a sixpence and change sides when it was called for.
His actions led to slavery being extended in Scotland for at least fifteen more years (When I think of Dundas I think of Henry Kissinger as well, whose action extended the Vietnam war, and ultimately the dying) by bowing to merchants and traders who required slaves for their businesses to profit.
A couple of Craig Murray articles on Scottish Maritime Border
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/01/scotlandengland-maritime-boundaries/comment-page-1/#comments
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/the-stolen-seas/comment-page-1/#comments
“Using your own logic. How did ANY nation gain their Independence from London. Was it the might of New Zealand that saved them. The military strength of Malta? I could go on…”
Julia Gibb.
Julie.
Forgive me, but I think you might have picked me up wrong, I’m not in anyway disputing that Scotland will become a independent nation, and I very much hope that it happens sooner than later.
No I was making a point that it might well be very difficult for Scotland to get back its 600 sq miles of stolen sea from England after independence.
Ideology is vulnerable to time and events, and events are playing very strongly for Scotland right now. That is if you don’t view the world through the lens of British constitutionalism, and have a desire to support international law. Sigh.
https://politicalanthro.wordpress.com/decolonizing-anthropology/
The SNP has compromised with ‘the system’.
Might we expect a new dawn? A resurrection?
A terrible beauty is born….
Fuck it, wots to loose?
“Anyone who thinks NATO wouldn’t want Scotland to be a member needs to take a look at the Atlantic Gap, a geopolitical choke point. Just name our terms.”
Capella.
Agreed, and I said as much in my 6.14pm comment, as for remaining in NATO after independence, one wonders if Scots will have the appetite to do so, as NATO no longer has its original remit, and remaining or joining could damage trade with non NATO countries such as Russia. We’d probably have to put it to a vote.
Of course I’m sure we can all recall one time NATO General Secretary George Robertson, make the ludicrous accusation that an independent Scotland would lead to the Balkanisation of Western Europe.
Stu – DH’s retort to why does the Union seem to attract far right re the London thugs:
Duncan Hothersall
@dhothersall
Replying to
@archon88
I would say one the most unsavoury elements in our society is the mob that supports and endorses Wings Over Scotland and his abusive behaviour. Horrors can be found on all sides, and you are just rehearsing your own prejudices.
and this reply from Jack Deeih:
Jack Deeth (v3.0)
@JackDeeth
·
41m
Replying to
@dhothersall
and
@archon88
I was one of those horrors once (and possibly got him arrested) – folk can reform!
Thought it was a wee female ‘journo’, but maybe in cahoots?
How easily some are turned. 🙁
Does the current SNP leadership have the necessary qualities to take us to, through and beyond independence?
Great minds eh @capella says at 6:20 pm
https://wingsoverscotland.com/unbonnie-dundas/comment-page-1/#comment-2539592
Do any of the people listed by Ian Brotherhood earlier, apart from perhaps Joanna Cherry, have the necessary qualities to take us to, through and beyond independence?
Aside from the apparent need for strategic, well respected, traffic cone placement to protect monuments from daft birds and the odd pile of nonsense, considerable compensation may also be due in respect of the following:
nrs covid stats give the total number of deaths to week 23 as 31,312, ie 1298 per 100,000 population;
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/covid19stats
same site (table 1) confirms that that, despite COVID and all its complications, this years death rate is STILL LESS than almost every year before SNP came to office in 2007..
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/statistics-and-data/statistics/statistics-by-theme/vital-events/deaths/age-standardised-death-rates-calculated-using-the-esp
“Scots are deeply racist and that we committed more than our fair share of the crimes of the British Empire.
We all know Scots with unsavoury attitudes and let’s not kid ourselves that they’re all unionists.”
To suggest that Scotland’s working class have been complicit in the merciless exploitation of other peoples is nothing short of heresy.
Any and all transgressions committed during Scotland’s occupation by England, lie squarely with the British ruling class, and any Scot who aided and abetted is a Tory.
@TJenny,
thon person Hotdogstall suffers from
Narcissistic personality disorder
`is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance,
a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.
But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that’s vulnerable to the slightest criticism.`
Lockdown has been hard for sufferers of `narcissistic personality disorder` they have been unable to get their `look at me i`m special i`m a snowflake` fix, being stuck in the house alone,
so it trolls the internet looking for attention,
Hotdogstall is a sad thing.
Channel $ attempting to trash Scotland on racw this evening.
Now there are plenty of racists in Scotland, mainly on the Brit Nat extreme right wing Brit Nat / Ulster Union segment of society, but overall our record is better.
Why does the BBC / STV / Channel 4 not report on this;-
https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2020/06/13/scottish-parliament-acts-to-make-us-all-proud-but-scotlands-nomedia-say-nah-black-lives-dont-matter-that-much/
The reason is that they are all controlled by unionists therefore instead of nasal gazing on Wings forums those who really support independence for our nation should be devoting their energies to combating Unionist propaganda whether on TV or newspaper columns/ letter writers AS IT IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE.
FOLLOW https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/blog-feed/ for rebuttals of Unionist propaganda
and Business for Scotland https://www.businessforscotland.com/
for economic arguments.
Scot Finlayson – DH is not alone though. From his twitter bio:
‘Borders-based former Edinburgher. Gay husband. Small businessman. Labour realist. Progressive, pro-EU & pro-UK. Edits @labourhame. Grows veg. Has a chihuahua.’
He has a partner and a wee dug too.
The thing that strikes me about Hotdogstall, is he’s obviously done nothing to de-colonise his intellect. I know, but we all have one. 🙂
Decolonising the economy
A new ourEconomy series focusing on the global economy and global justice.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/decolonising-economy/
@Republicofscotland 6:33pm
Indeed, the case you mention appears at first, at odds with his antipathy towards the abolition of slavery; but Dundas never operated without motive (my opinion) His adversary only requured to at the very least ‘indenture’ his ‘slave’ and all would have been tickety boo – but he was giving ‘slavers’ a bad name and drawing too much attention.
“Good God man! Propeety slavery! Next it will be the indentured man and cheap labour considered slavery and to to be aboliahed – you know where that ends, We’ll have to pay every bugger a ‘living wage!”
As I touched on – ‘property slavery’ gave those first in the game, a monopoly and edge in domestic business. Further, property slaves could not be impressed, or otherwise taken from their erstwhile masters, or it would have been effective ‘theft of property’.
Dundas would have been having no truck with such monopolies impinging on Great Britain’s domestic business opportunities, nor the inability to sequester labour – either for the admiralty or generally poaching manpower for the gentry.
I don’t consider the likes of Dundas and many of his ilk racist at all. They were just opportunistic bastards. Archetypal modern day Tories, who would sell their grannies to slavery if it turned a coin. They considered most beneath them to be exploited – the colour of their skin, race or creed was incidental. They’d extirpate Scotsmen (especially their countrymen) as soon as Africans, Indians or Jamaicans if it suited their ends.
It’s very easy to label anyone “Racist” – especially if slavery is involved somewhere – but as ever; usually neglect the fact that frankly, the bastards despised and would enslave everyone they considered ‘inferior’ equally, without prejudice, without even batting an eyelid.
@RepublicofScotland 6.14pm
If we don’t think we’re capable of facing down England we might as well just give up now and get the best deal we think we can from the “you’ll have had your independence” Britnats like the good little house Jocks we are.
The reason Renton’s speech in Trainspotting resonates so strongly is that like so many such things it has a considerable grain of truth to it.
Again, you seem to think and independent Scotland will emerge with nothing from the union: that’s not how it works. We get our share of assets, including military hardware. Unless of course we want to do an Iceland and have no armed forces at all?
This time it’s: Indyref is on hold because of Coronavirus.
On 31 January 2020, Brexit Day it was: “So my judgment at this stage is that we should use our energies differently. We must focus firmly on building and winning the political case for independence”.
Before that it was: when the time is right…an update about an update about an update about an update about a timetable… I’ll cross that bridge if I come to it. The clock has been re-set etc.
I’ve got to laugh when Sturgeon is referred to as the “leader”.
The only leading Sturgeon has done is leading the indy movement and the SNP by the nose and leading the indy movement up the garden path.
Colin you do know that under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership the SNP’s popularity and support for independence is at an all time high.
It is the soft No vote we need to win not the hardline impatient Yes keyboaed warriors who prefer to attack our First Minister than point out the failure of the Union to helo Scotland
Anyone seen the prick pictured on Twitter pissing at the memorial for Keith Palmer, the police officer stabbed to death? Problem with London is that there are a few people from all sides who use any excuse for a fucking riot.
@Sinky says:
13 June, 2020 at 7:46 pm
“Channel $ attempting to trash Scotland on racw this evening.
Now there are plenty of racists in Scotland”
There are racists all over the world, in every race and every country. Fortunately, they are a tiny minority. Unfortunately, most of them seem to live on Twitter.
“If we don’t think we’re capable of facing down England we might as well just give up now and get the best deal we think we can from the “you’ll have had your independence” Britnats like the good little house Jocks we are.
The reason Renton’s speech in Trainspotting resonates so strongly is that like so many such things it has a considerable grain of truth to it.
Again, you seem to think and independent Scotland will emerge with nothing from the union: that’s not how it works. We get our share of assets, including military hardware. Unless of course we want to do an Iceland and have no armed forces at all?”
Andy.
I didn’t say we won’t get our 8% worth when we leave the union, though no one is sure how the deal will pan out, in 2014 if memory serves, David Cameron the then PM, hinted that the rUK would keep all the debt, but there wasn’t much indication of whether that meant if assets would’ve split or not.
No what I intimated was that it might be very difficult to get back our stolen waters, and the assets within.
@Tjenny,
`former Edinburgher`
always assumed Hotdogstall was from somewhere in Englandshire,
don`t know why but i thought Norfolk, but maybe getting Hotdogstall mixed up with Alan Partridge,
i suppose `never assume`.
Scots are not inherently racist. “We’re aw Jock Tamson’s bairns ” has a meaning. The Celts traditionally are a Clan society – like the North American Indians. If you agree to the clan rules you are a member.
Contrast that with the Norman ideology of England where primogeniture rules. They claim to own all the land. They disinherit the people who lived and worked on the land. Everyone suddenly becomes a serf.
@Sinky says:
13 June, 2020 at 9:34 pm
“Colin you do know that under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership the SNP’s popularity and support for independence is at an all time high. It is the soft No vote we need to win not the hardline impatient Yes keyboaed warriors who prefer to attack our First Minister than point out the failure of the Union to helo Scotland.”
Never make the mistake of assuming that those who vote SNP are necessarily in favour of independence. Remember what the state of the Tories and Labour has been over that past few years, yet support for indy has remained static. So it is right to question the SNP leadership. A “Yes” campaign doesn’t mean saying yes to everything Nicola says or does. FFS Labour membership went up under Corbyn, and look what happened there.
“I don’t consider the likes of Dundas and many of his ilk racist at all. They were just opportunistic bastards. Archetypal modern day Tories, who would sell their grannies to slavery if it turned a coin. They considered most beneath them to be exploited – the colour of their skin, race or creed was incidental. They’d extirpate Scotsmen (especially their countrymen) as soon as Africans, Indians or Jamaicans if it suited their ends.”
Iain.
Wouldn’t you say though, that to consider someone beneath you to be exploited, as someone inferior to you, and couldn’t that be classed as a form of racism. Whether it be a black or white person.
I recall watching Martin Luther King Jr in an interview in which he rightly stated that the white man had successfully demonised the colour of the black man. Of course as you rightly say first and foremost people of any colour were exploited for profit.
The slaves were of course a commodity, I recall reading about the Zong, a slave trading ship that on heading back to Liverpool England, that it’s plotted course was slightly off this led to the captain of the Zong throw 130 captured slaves into the ocean and to there deaths to save on food and water rations.
On reaching Liverpool the company that owned the Zong tried to claim compensation from its insurance company for the loss of assets, the 130 slaves thrown overboard.
@ Jockanese Wind Talker 7.09 pm – Hi great minds do indeed think alike 🙂
“Contrast that with the Norman ideology of England where primogeniture rules. They claim to own all the land. They disinherit the people who lived and worked on the land. Everyone suddenly becomes a serf.”
Indeed Capella, Anglo-Saxon kings were elected not born, interestingly there were four kings of England in 1066, Edward the Confessor, Harold, Edgar the Aethling, and William, who was crowned king on Christmas Day.
King Edgar fled England, for Scotland, he was the last Anglo-Saxon and the last male line in the House of Wessex, he died in Scotland in 1126.
When dundass’s men went to Africa who did they buy the slaves from??
Just asking
The same thing happened in Africa where the British disinherited the indigenous people. The British claimed to now “own” the land. So the people living on the land owed them rent – in cash.
Nobody had cash. So they had to get jobs in factories and mines, owned by the British peers, to earn cash to pay the rent.
Just as it happened in Scotland.
Here’s a interesting snippet, slavery was not made a statutory offence in the UK until 2010.Section 71 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. This act, which came into force in 2010, created a new offence of holding another person in slavery or servitude or requiring them to perform forced or compulsory labour.
@ Republicofscotland – yes indeed. The Bayeux Tapestry illustrates brilliantly the horrific invasion of the psychotic Normans into Britain. Unsurpassed for cruelty, greed, power grabbing and self-aggrandisement, the Normans have dominated history in Britain and North America ever since 1066.
Time we showed then up for the complete bastards they are.
@RepublicofScotland
The waters aren’t “stolen” : the issue is, as has been pointed out to you and others with references to articles demonstrating it, one that will be solved post indy with reference to existing international law and precedent. It’s not rocket science. The area concerned is most likely to be divided equitably. The resources in the area aren’t that significant: it just isn’t that big or that full of hydrocarbons at this stage.
On the one hand you’re somehow confident Scotland will get its fair share of 8%, but on the other you have no confidence we can prevail in other spheres? Make your mind up!
@Shug,
Makes no difference. You know you are buying human beings who suffer unimaginable torture. That is equally as bad as capturing them in the first place.
We’re heading for midsummer. White nights. And the celebration of the Battle of Bannockburn.
#https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bannockburn
“The waters aren’t “stolen” : the issue is, as has been pointed out to you and others with references to articles demonstrating it, one that will be solved post indy with reference to existing international law”
Oh right Andy, if they aren’t stolen, then what are they then? Also I’m glad that you’re thinking positively that Westminster won’t flout anymore International laws.
We’ll just have to wait and see won’t we, but I hope your proved right and I’m wrong.
“The Bayeux Tapestry illustrates brilliantly the horrific invasion of the psychotic Normans into Britain.”
Long after the tapestry was commissioned by William’s half-brother Odo, or so some historians think, Hitler ordered Himmler head of the (SS) in France to snatch the tapestry from the Louvre where it was on display. However the resistance had already occupied the building it was 1944, and the Nazis decided to retreat.
I’m not sure the Tories have moved on much in terms of racial justice. Back in the mid-80s they supported Thatcher’s appeasing of Apartheid, those who were Young Conservatives then don’t seem to have learnt anything in the intervening 30 years.
The Bayeux Tapestry was a symbolic form of media, that was probably as bogus as today’s media. Just like most triumphal projects (see Trajan’s Column). The Normans were the ‘skinheads’ of the time though. 🙂
IN FOCUS: Decolonizing Media Studies
Decolonize Media: Tactics,
Manifestos, Histories
https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.cmstudies.org/resource/resmgr/in_focus_archive/InFocus_57-4.pdf
Just watched a clip of some stupid fkrs sticking new names on top of street name plates oh aye very fkn clever , then other idiots pledging to topple any statue that offends them , this was of course on Channel 4 News who were trying their best to highlight the racism in Scotland , and how they managed to find so many contributors was fkn amazing , I really must get out more or get to specsavers pretty pronto because I ain’t seeing what they were showing , then again I ain’t looking for it , I treat anyone I meet exactly the same I honestly couldn’t give a fk if they are pleasant to me I am pleasant to them , so don’t pull any kind of card prody catholic Hindi Pakistani or black that’s just fkn stupid , If you are looking to be offended simply by your own actions you will probably find it easily enough .
I am just trying to point out the mass hysteria that seems to have gripped a lot of people , I don’t know if it’s in the water or chemtrails or being under house arrest that’s causing this madness
Sinky
The big issue is that pro-YES opinion polls and SNP bums on seats do not translate into a sovereign Scotland.
Sturgeon’s s30 “gold standard” indyref policy is no longer credible.
English media headlines reports if riots in UK capital
And riots during UK race protests
The english media are all UK inclusive when it comes to riots, but not so much when there are any good news stories to report, where they revert back to “it was Engerland what done it”
Sinky
Yoons (especially english Yoons) will vote all day for free prescriptions, free Uni fees, better health care, free this , free that,,,,and the only Party that gives them all those freebees is the SNP
So it’s bit of a no brainer, vote SNP for the freebees,,,,and vote No in any Indy ref.
Sturgeon has done nothing to further the cause of Scottish Independence
She is a Devolutionist, like most of the SNP voters
You should never try to equate the Holyrood vote with an Indy vote
And I didn’t know the UK had a capital City (London)
News to me.
I would like to see a “Highlanders Lifes Matter” march being organised.
Thousands of Highlanders should gather in Inverness and March on the Statue of the Duke of Sutherland.
Picking up more protesters along the way.
Then lasso his neck and drag him down the hillside.
It’s been tried before in recent years,,,but why not have another go while we are in the season of pulling down racist statues
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-15924649
There is a more modern and insidious colonisation that most folk are probably unaware of, which is sufficiently powerful to curtail the potential for pro-social change.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271624383_The_Rise_of_Neoliberal_Feminism
And this points to how to sort things out.
Introduction: Reclaiming Feminism:
Gender and Neoliberalism
https://www.ids.ac.uk/files/dmfile/Bull39.6intro3.pdf
.
Chris,
You have style, grace, good humour, talent and for your latest contribution of Unbonnie Dundas, possibly some perfect timing.
Those seagulls having a crap-fest at that statue upon which the ashite, are, methinks no accidident on your part.
Chris, your work puts me in mind of these words, uttered by the best First Minister that Scotland has ever had…
“And tremble, false Whigs, in the midst of your glee,
You have not seen the last of my bonnet and me!”
At the time Alex Salmond spoke those words, they were, I think, directed towards Westminster and the Unionists.
But here’s the thing: Stuart Campbell captured some VERY telling words by Alex in which he speaks verbatim on what Nicola Sturgeon guaranteed.
Maybe see if you heard what I did in this statesman like speech…
https://wingsoverscotland.com/alex-salmond-resigns-from-snp/
I am REALLY looking forward to the book that Alex is writing and shall, no doubt, relish every word.
On the other hand, I suspect the current occupant in Bute house will be changing its name to Nicola Seagull.
For she just shits on everyone and is soon to be found out.
Oh joy at the prospect of the SNP giving the jotters to the McWoke Brigade and the 77th sleepers along with those tractors that tried to jail an innocent man because they could not best him at decent, honest, legal debate.
Aye alphabet tractors, you certainly have not seen the last of Bonnie Dundee.
Was the one mile link from the M9 to The Forth Road Bridge not held up for about 30 years because of problems in obtaining land from the Dundas Estate?
The descendants of these power brokers are alive and still thriving in modern Scotland.
Why is there no motorway link from The Forth Bridge to Leith?
Think of The Roseberry Estate when you are queued up at the Barnton Roundabout for an hour!
I thought one of Sturgeon’s first jobs when she became leader was going to be land reform.
She was going to sort out those land owners who own about half of Scotland
It was going to be pay back time
But like Independence, land reform has kinda been kicked into touch in favour of the Man/Woman debate.
Sweet dreams.
Coronavirus: Fear of second wave in Beijing after market outbreak
http://archive.is/BqHhf
Mat Hancock telling public face masks on public transport is mandatory . He also claims that any kind of face covering will do which from a practical point of view is nonsense because it’s ineffective. The amount of money being spent by Government and businesses to institute new social control measures means our lives will be regulated micro managed and controlled by mafia politicians in London and Edinburgh. These changes being forced upon us are deeply undemocratic dehumanising by design.Our politicians want us all to be constantly afraid suspicious and distrustful of our fellows. This is evil and the exaggerated emergency is evil. Sick old people cleared out of hospitals and packed into care homes is evil. Our politicians are responsible for all of that and more.
When Boris Johnson became prime minister everyone on here banged on about what a liar the man was and now here you all are taking his instruction on covid 19 . Believing only the media hype you want to believe shows the dilettante nature of many of this sites posters not all but too many.
The NHS has many questions to answer over its handling of this supposed ‘crisis’ . Why are hospitals in Scotland empty with Doctors and Nurses twiddling their thumbs?
Why were sick people put into care homes?
Not directly connected but why stereotype yourself with a tartan poppy? And while I’m about it why does British Legion share platforms with arms manufacturers? Old soldiers unwitting marketing ploy? I recall reading a long time ago that war service soldiers in the trenches hated arms dealers.
Our politicians want us to treat each other as a virus. That was part of the mentality of the regime in Nazi Germany when they were othering the Jews. Our Governments are trying to get us to ‘other ‘ each other. It’s demonic and I don’t have religion it’s demonic Government policy.
Can any political genius tell me when the curve on democracy has been flattened?
Beware of constant use of ‘second wave’ virus attack media rhetoric .The powers our Governments granted themselves helped by criminal parliament’s means they have a means to control not previously available to Governments in UK.
Still banging on about statues eh?
Looks like the Tories are scrapping their GRA reforms in England.
Over to you, SNP.
https://twitter.com/Glinner/status/1271918957717569541
1066? That’s a hell of a grudge.
Fuck me dogbiscuit, did someone feed you after midnight again?
Your comments about the NHS and British Legion are both insulting and fucking bullshit.
“Still banging on about statues eh?”
Why not, that is the topic of the thread. The semiotic ideology of public spaces does have a significant impact on the nature and potential for democratic participation. Plukes on plinths can present cultural barriers to access and inclusion for some.
Making Spaces Changing Places
https://www.powercube.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/making_spaces_changing_places.pdf
David wrote on 14 June, 2020 at 12:34 am:
“I thought one of Sturgeon’s first jobs when she became leader was going to be land reform. She was going to sort out those land owners who own about half of Scotland. It was going to be pay back time. But like Independence, land reform has kinda been kicked into touch in favour of the Man/Woman debate.”
And now our childrens’ health with the junk food ban being put on hold due to……….wait for it………..Covid-19. But somehow the GRA fiasco is being kept alive. She’s a one-trick pony appearing regularly on her own editions of Grandstand(ing).
________
And here’s a recent interesting Twatter poll a lot of you may be interested in. The final results came from over 6000 votes. BTW folks, ‘no’ came from behind when it was 38%no-42%yes
https://twitter.com/UKDefJournal/status/1271729553396948993
That poll’s shocking.
Kind of takes the edge of sharing one with the semiotics geeks out there.
Visual Semiotics of the Spaces We Inhabit: Preface
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11196-013-9330-0
A while back, a video was posted here (I can’t remember by whom, in the first instance) of an American doctor (Eriksen?) blithely asserting, at a time when Covid 19 was far too new for anyone to know either way, that there were no long-term effects.
This suggests he might have been wrong:
https://archive.fo/tvG3o
The sample is quite small, and as the article says, more research is needed.
Beaker. Any links to support your assertions?
Oh I notice you don’t address the problems of the so called ‘new normal.
A big round for Cameron for his efforts to achieve pompous ass of the year – so far and it’s a wide field here – so Cameron its 2020 we’re all here to celebrate your achievement how does it feel? Dizzy heights?
I notice the police were mob handed and wearing riot gear against the patriots’ but were softly softly with rioters who destroy statues get met to kneel down and then get their arses kicked by BLM. Maybe the different policing style has something to do with violence.
Cressida Dick stinks of politics. She is also a criminally negligent idiot.
Dogbiscuit
If your appreciation and application of the law isn’t bio-neurologically sensitive and semiotically aware, you’re on to plumbs in terms of the potential for due legal process and ethical jurisprudence. Just saying. 😉
Why Biosemiotics? An Introduction to Our View on the Biology of Life Itself
https://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/9781848166882_0001
Here’s an example of what I’m talking about. It’s the kind of practicle knowledge the Justice Minister should be responsive to, IMHO.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11196-016-9502-9
@Republicofscotland
Re: Degrees of racism
No, I don’t personally class discrimination in general as racism. But it’s all degrees of interpretation I’ll allow.
I’ve a fairly narrow view on such things – racism is probably persecution and especial loathing by ‘race’ (or at the very least, whatever is interpreted as such) Of course, that begs the example of “Scotchmen – that inferior race..” etc
* insert nationality as one pleases.
I think I know racism when I see it, but I’m never sure – X hates the P*k**s – but then again, he hates the Tims/Huns apparently – His mate is meant to be one of them and he isn’t – they had a pint the other night…
Racism seems to be, superficially, more a specific loathing based on ethnicity if anything, if I was pushed to rationalise it – yet there really is an excuse that you can’t possibly be racist because you hate evry c**t.
That bizarrely leaves me in a position of defending Dundas, as not racist, yet a possible victim of racism himself – at least to the extent his English peers derided him as a mere inferior “Scotchman”. He may not have made a distinction himself of being of a seperate ‘race’ from his English peers – but they did. A quite delicious irony.
But that’s my perception and interpretation (he didn’t seem to give a shit) and if it’s left to others to identify it for you – that leads all he way to the ‘Hate Crimes Bill.’
I certainly wouldn’t be defending Dundas’ general character either though – which was just a rank bastard (measured by my historic revisionism) Nor would I try to impose my ideas of what racism is (or is not) on anyone – I suppose it is what you perceive it to be – but of course, one then becomes in turn racist
Wait, what? Well, If you were to believe invective (let us call it abuse) from anyone was racist, surely you’re defining your seperation from them on the basis of race?
That is to say; you inherently assume they are of a different race, in order to claim they are being racist towards you. “Me, an ‘X’ is being racially abused by him, a ‘Y’
The moment you begin seeing people as seperate races, you are classifying, delineating.
Very seldom does one classify oneself as inferior. That really only leaves some altruistic notion of believing in different ‘races’, yet believing all equal (some nirvana) or succumbing to human nature and believing that some races are perhaps, at the very least, just a tad, more equal than others… ‘Certainly more equal than that racist bastard’
I don’t know what else to say – if I’m abused because of what I look like, where I was born, or any other parameter, I’m more likely to look upon it less as racism, and more the person is a just a rank f**king arsehole in general. To be honest, from what I observe, that pretty much sums them all up.
It’s not neccessarily racism, it’s just being a c**t. It’s only a matter of a whim – who they’re choosing to be a dick to at any given time. Yeah, that sort of arsehole would turn on you as soon as look at you, whatever your race, creed or colour – any excuse. Fuck them.
Yeah, racism – tricky subject
Tricky subject but not unexplored.
Fanon and the psychoanalysis of racism
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/2567/1/Fanonandthepscyho.pdf
And another.
Frantz Fanon’s Black Skin White Masks and the Social Sickness of Racism
https://www.fusionmagazine.org/frantz-fanons-black-skin-white-masks-and-the-social-sickness-of-racism/
Racism is rooted in the psychological inability to accept the ethnic/cultural difference of the Other. This leads to the racist’s psychological need to silence and exclude the Other. Just as Westminster does to Scotland.
Race, Reason, Impasse: Cesaire, Fanon, and the Legacy of
Emancipation
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/172236/pdf
Interesting thread on Martin Keatings twatter
//twitter.com/MartinJKeatings/status/1271710656467734528
Sorry try again
https://twitter.com/MartinJKeatings/status/1271710656467734528
In Alberta our chief health Officer reported
Sixty per cent of our currently active cases (403) are under the age of 40. And we are seeing a particular increase in those between 20 and 29.”
As lock down rules have eased this was not unexpected
To change the tack a little I read today reports of a video conference to be held today between Boris Johnson and the EU President Ursula Von Der Leyen at which time Johnson will tell the EU that they are drinking in the last chance saloon and that unless they conceded to British demands then Britain will leave in six weeks be waving without a deal.
With all the bolshiness of a belligerent bully does any one think that the EU will buckle to these threats. I certainly don’t. Side by side the EU is an economic machine hugely more powerful than the UK. Indeed, Germany or France alone are bigger economic powers.
So what does this bode for our economic future. And what will it bring for Scotland caught up in the economic slip stream of Britain re-running the war with Europe, a zEurope now at peace, and a Europe now in a settled economic trading bloc.
Well aside of the belligerence of leaving, and leaving without a deal, such action couldn’t come at a worse time.
The UK with an over 20% reduction in GDP in April and no doubt a similar fall in May is sustaining the biggest slide ever in economic output ever in 300 years. Quite how the economy recovers from that is one scary question. Just think of the impact of a twenty percent reduction in everyone’s wages, or twenty percent less to spend on hospitals, schools, roads, pensions, social security!
It doesn’t bear thinking about, and yet today, and in defiance of requests from the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish devolved Governments to extend the Brexit transition period, Boris Johnstone will today in a video conference tell the EU that they are “ drinking in the last chance saloon ‘ and that unless the EU concede to British demands then Britain will leave with no deal.
Such action is lunacy. Absolute lunacy and must cause absolute fear for our people. It certainly is doing so for our business community. It is, to put it bluntly as if we are at war with Europe. Do as we say or we will stuff you with no deal.
All cooperation gone I’m not sure that the we one the war mentality will prevail and give the UK economic nirvana.U.K.
Maybe Boris Johnson and his band think they will post Brexit go and retake the USA economically and tell Trump they want a deal or else. Or maybe Johnson thinks they can do the same to China. ( but if anyone wants a hint Trump has already levied a 25% import tax on hugely slumped Scotch Whisky sales – and of course Trump has also told Boris that any post Brexit trade deal will involve the NHS)
Chlorinated chicken or economically trussed up like a chicken ready for the slaughter, it’s not difficult to see how we may be heading to the biggest slump in living standards ever.
A perfect storm and we voted for it. At least in our poverty our British Bull Dog spirit will prevail as we decide which hospitals to cut back on, which pensions to reduce, as jobs and incomes go down the pan.
Off to enjoy my breakfast bagel now in the land of the free.!
I don’t want to criticise Martin Keatings, because at least he’s doing something.
My problem is that testing Section 30 in court is “Constitution Lite”.
Why focus on making a tiny part of devolved administration function better, when the same constitutional principle you are trying to establish can demolish the whole ethos of a devolved administration to make way for actual sovereign government? Play to win, or stay out of the way.
Unfortunately I think Martin Keatings suffers the same myopia as the SNP. Section 30 is drawn from the 1998 Scotland Act, which is the constitution (small ‘c’) of a devolved assembly answerable to Westminster. The Scotland Act however is NOT the Constitution (capital ‘C’) of the Sovereign Nation of Scotland. The two should not be confused.
If you respect the constitutional legitimacy of Section 30, then by doing so you are respecting the constitutional legitimacy of the Scotland Act, and thus the constitutional subservience of the “Scottish” Government, and thus the constitutional superiority of Westminster.
Don’t you see? Section 30 is an instrument of colonial suppression. It’s a hook with a worm on it. Accepting that Section 30 is legitimate process is our acquiescence to be governed according Westminster’s rule book, NOT the Constitution of our Nation.
You don’t challenge the rotten system by honouring the Section 30 process. You use Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution to void and invalidate the whole root and branch colonial mechanism which has usurped Scotland’s constitutional autonomy.
Cut to the chase. Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution allows us, the Scottish people, the legitimate sovereign authority to denounce Brexit and Scotland’s forced expulsion from Europe as a breach of the Union Treaty, and so breached, dispatched by the hand of Westminster Tories and Brexiteers, the United Kingdom no longer exists.
Scotland has had NO Scottish Government since 1707. Holyrood and devolution is “British” Government dressed up in a kilt and sold to us troublesome patriots as a soothing “partial” deliverance.
Holyrood is our placebo. We think it delivers partial autonomy, but the price of that limited autonomy is conceding the principle that autonomy is Westminster’s to give in the first place. Westminster since 1998 has been doing to Scotland what Edward 1 did to Scotland in the late 13th Century; bestowing legitimacy upon whatever self serving Scottish Government pledged fealty to him as overlord.
My friends, it’s an uncomfortable question, but isn’t that precisely what the Holyrood Assembly is currently doing here, now, today, in 2020??? Sturgeon is telling us the only lawful process we have, is process which Westminster approves.
Do you see it yet? We have been conned. There isn’t conspiracy “at” Holyrood. The great conspiracy IS Holyrood.
Robert Graham 11.21
You wrote “I am just trying to point out the mass hysteria that seems to have gripped a lot of people“.
You have fallen hook line and sinker for the MSM narrative. Many of The “protests” I see on TV involve hundreds of people whilst some are larger involving a few 1000 at most. They are the fringe, the outliers. Those of the far left/antifa persuasion and those on the the far right are the ones causing all the trouble. They do not speak for, or represent, but a small fraction of our society.
Breeks @ 8.54am
Chapeau Sir, yet another succinct assessment of where we are.
I particularly liked your line comparing today’s situation with the days of Edward I.
Now, who is going to be the Bruce of this century?
Breeks @ 8.54. 101 percent correct.
So I switch on the tv this morning and the chef James Martin was in the Highlands talking to a farmer who raises Highland cattle, and the farmer i’m sure was English.
I turn to the Beechgrove Garden and low and behold the two presenters are English. Nothing in Scotland is Scottish anymore. *#@*”#!
McDuff
Any and every News channel and almost every program has English presenters English content its no wonder a lot of Scots forget they are not English , nothing against English people but they wouldnt want their News from France Berlin Madrid etc so why is it acceptable for us to be forgotten and sidelined ,
Sensibledave@9.05
You wrote “you have fallen hook line and sinker for the MSM narrative” then go on to use the word ANTIFA, ask yourself who has fallen “hook line and sinker” for the MSM narrative.
“Antifa” the new word for the right wing apologists to use, to try and shut down criticism of establishment/right wing failures.
The mirror has been cleaned and held up to the right wing lackeys, and they don’t like what they see.
http://archive.is/mFiN6
Sensless I aint falling for anything pal especially anything you post thanks very much and being selective in quoting a certain part of a comment is naughty .
Well Boris has pulled the rug from under the embedded woke cult
Oh Dear How Sad eh
Come on Boris ha ha
@ Breeks et al
Martin Keating deserves credit for doing what the Scottish Government (or broader Yes movement?) ought to have done ASAP after 2014. At least if the decision goes in favour of Westminster we will have certainty on the S30 Order front, and the SNP will have come clean about their (lack of?) alternative.
The problem for those of us who are disillusioned with the SNP, whether former members like me or just supporters and voters, is what alternative method has the best chance of delivering independence in the shortest reasonable timescale.
It’s becoming increasingly obvious that Holyrood 2021 elections OUGHT to be decisive, but that only works if the SNP can be weened off their devolusionist “Gold Standard” approach. Even if a list only party does take off, it won’t really have any effect unless it holds the balance of power, which seems a big ask.
If, as recent polls suggest, the SNP gain an absolute majority in 2021 then those of us who disagree with their approach need to think about what the realistic alternative is (a new party, a non-party civic movement à la the Catalan model Committees for the Defence of the Republic or trying to make the SNP fit for purpose from within), what timescales it aims to meet and who is going to lead and fund such an organisation.
With all due respect to Mating Keating, or Collette Walker of ISP, we’re going to need some big hitters to make any kind of progress in the short to medium term. Perhaps we’re just going to have to accept that independence isn’t coming any time soon: it looks more and more likely that “once in a generation” is a self fulfilling prophecy not because it’s what British nationalists want, but because the Scottish people lack the moral and political courage to ensure it happens any sooner.
Breeks @ 8.54
While,Yes Breeks…you are right in what you say!
But as things stand… we voted for exactly that in 2014!
So in theory …we trapped ourselves…
If Sovereignty is now expressed by votes, and the last vote, showed that our “Sovereign Will” was to be governed by the terms and conditions of Westminster still stands!!!!
I can see a case for having to find a way of holding such a vote within those terms and conditions…unless and until it’s been clearly demonstrated that both Politically AND Legally we can’t.
Also
Ignorance is no excuse and it also could be argued that the term “independence” it’s self is the foundation stone of the lie/con….that predates Holyrood by quite sometime.
While the Clowns and Egotist’s that front the Westminster system just look no farther than the next turn at the perks ( which is probably why those who “play” are almost always independently wealthy) those Lord’s and Civil servants play a much longer game….at the very least a 30 years ahead one, and, even then “some’ of their antics are still kept for future history books only!!!
Mcduff 10.16
And the vast majority of those who have moved from england to Scotland are No Voters.
They get the best of both worlds, they get to stay in their stinkin Union,,,And, they get all the freebees the SNP offer them.
That is why the SNP support is so high,,, it’s because the Unionists amongst us vote for them.
But ask them to vote for Scottish Independence, they run a fuckin mile.
This also suits Devolutionist Sturgeon, who sits on the Independence fence and enjoys the backing of both Unionists and Nationalists.
And as Stoker points out, Sturgeon prefers Grandstanding for the media than actually fighting for core Scottish/SNP issues,,,, Independence for example.
If everyone who complains about SNP inaction were to join the party and make some action 2021 could well be a vote for independence and the threat to women’s safety would be jettisoned.
Dipped into the Bias BBC Scotland Brewer show, and I see a new incarnation.
He is David Lockhart Wallace
That guy is frightening
He looks as if he has been put together in the BBC Scotland labs.
These robot presenters are put together to spread the word of unionism around Scotland.
And anyone who passes the Brewer Unionist test must be a prize prick
He will just be another Unionist mouthpiece who will be trained to lie through their teeth and run down Scotland at every opportunity.
@ Jill Sharpe
I’d be more convinced that your plan could be successful if we’d seen one iota of evidence of the SNP leadership responding to innumerable complaints and resignations over the past few years Jill. As we’ve seen with the party’s shameful treatment of Gareth Wardell, Neal Hanvey, Denise Finlay, not to mention their willingness to throw Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine under the Woko Haram bus and abject failure to censure let alone expel the TRA extremists in their midst, there is very little prospect of the current leadership changing tack.
I wish those proposing to change that from within well, but again I’ve seen no evidence of any progress to date, not do I give much for the chances of it being more successful going forward. I did think about rejoining (having resigned in November 2018 over the Grouse Beater affair) and remember having a discussion with Denise Finlay about it. Given what I’ve seen since I’m glad I didn’t bother.
I could never see myself campaigning shoulder to shoulder with some of the folk representing the party. If it does change and they deal with the TRA entryists and come up with a coherent plan to bring about #indyref2 I might change my mind. I won’t be holding my breath tho’! With luck a new party will emerge soon: if it doesn’t, I think we’re going to have to get used to ‘once in a genaration’ being more than just a Britnat trope, it’s going to be the reality.
Denise and I already have a plan to do something about it – though I still think more could be done from inside – people leaving or not joining do give the Woke a clear run.
BTW Andy – do you have a twitter presence at the moment?
Jill Sharpe
So you want me to rejoin a Party I have just left, in the faint hope they might or might not fight for Scottish Independence?
Jill, it doesn’t work like that.
I will join a Party who already takes that as a given.
The current SNP are unrecognizable to your average Independence voter
They have gone so far off message that they actually seriously need to consider a name change
Something like “The New Radicals”
But until Sturgeon has been removed we are going to be stuck in this Limbo
We are rudderless, without a voice
THIS HAS TO CHANGE,,,FAST!!!
Liz g says:
14 June, 2020 at 10:35 am
Breeks @ 8.54
While,Yes Breeks…you are right in what you say!
But as things stand… we voted for exactly that in 2014!
So in theory …we trapped ourselves…
Well, yes and no.
The Constitutional distinction which has been made between 2014 and now is Brexit, and the fact that Scottish Sovereignty has been overruled while in a bilateral treaty between constitutional equals.
Brexit, or more specifically Scotland having Brexit imposed against it’s will, breaches both the spirit of the Union and the Articles of Union, and furthermore represents the will of one nation being imposed upon another which is the very definition of colonial subjugation that is contrary to international law.
You are correct, Scotland would be hoisted with it’s own petard if matters stood as they did after we lost the referendum, but that’s the whole significance and poignant relevance of Brexit! That is why it is so catastrophic for the SNP to simply abandon the options which Brexit has created!
Brexit alters the landscape from one where the Sovereign Nation of Scotland voluntarily elected to remain in the Union, and thus had it’s constitutional integrity respected, to create an altogether different landscape, where Scotland’s Constitutional integrity has been violated, and a democratic majority in Scotland has been emphatically disrespected and overruled.
What Scotland’s 2014 vote did for the Union was undone, and undone tenfold by the unconstitutional colonialism of Brexit and Scotland’s involuntary subjugation. It is the act of Brexit against our will which breaks the back of the Union.
“yet there really is an excuse that you can’t possibly be racist because you hate evry c**t.”
Iain.
Thank you for your thoughts on the matter, as for the above, it does make one wonder if being a misanthrope, is or isn’t a form of racism. I’m reminded in a sense of Jean Rostand’s saying, kill one person and you’re a murderer, kill a million and you’re a conqueror. I guess with a misanthrope, the equation would be hating one person against hating everyone else.
@Breeks
“Do you see it yet? We have been conned. There isn’t conspiracy “at” Holyrood. The great conspiracy IS Holyrood.”
Eureka!
We have sifted through half a million comments on Wings since the start and finally whether by brilliant calculation or serendipity.
The penny has dropped.
@ Jill Sharpe
No, I’ve given up on twitter after they suspended my account for thought crime.
I’m on Gab despite my misgivings about some of the nutters on it, but there are very few Scottish and/or pro-indy users so far.
Given the direction of travel of twitter and facebook I think the only way forward is probably holding our noses and using open federated platforms like Gab or Manyverse.
My id there is @Ceannairc.
David@ 11.00am.
David.
I recall Hardeep Singh Kohli, (he’s the brother of the character Sanjeev from Still Game) being quickly dropped by the BBC, of which he worked for, when they found out that he supported Scottish independence, the BBC denied this.
Of course you need to be of a particular political persuasion to rise up in the BBC. I recall reading that MI5 used to vet potential BBC employees, does the practice still exist? Well innScotland at least I think it will in one form or another.
“And the vast majority of those who have moved from england to Scotland are No Voters.
They get the best of both worlds, they get to stay in their stinkin Union,,,And, they get all the freebees the SNP offer them.
That is why the SNP support is so high,,, it’s because the Unionists amongst us vote for them.
But ask them to vote for Scottish Independence, they run a fuckin mile.”
David.
There is a way around that particular obstacle, and it is using the next Scottish election as a vote for a majority of independence minded parties in May equates to winning a independence referendum.
Those who’ve then moved to Scotland from other regions of the UK to have the best of both worlds would then be forced into making a choice.
Of course none of this really matters unless you have a First Minister who’s prepared to be bold and implement that particular plan of action, call it a Plan B if you will.
Well we said the Tories were weaponising the gender issue and now they have. The Times Headline today – PM Scraps plan to make gender change easier – Women-only facilities will be protected.
Rhiannon Spear – National Women’s Convener of SNP – is truly unhappy about protecting women’s spaces.
That’s us she’s talking about “privileged white feminists”.
https://twitter.com/RhiannonV/status/1272074979962748930?s=20
RepublicofScotland,
Hardeep singh kohli was no binned for being an independence supporter, but for his inappropriate behaviour
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2009/jul/13/hardeep-singh-kohli-bbc-the-one-show
‘How a new constitution can help tackle institutional racism’ – Dr Elliot Bulmer in today’s National.
Of course a new written constitution would address much more than racism. In my view it should be widely available now in draft form as we try to convince our lethargic SNP leadership that it’s time to move towards independence.
@ Gfaetheblock
http://archive.is/sFcCc
Republic of Scotland
Regarding BBC Scotland dumping pro Indy employees.
Did they not kick Big Boab and the Doctor characters off of River City.
I met the Doctor character in George Sq at Tommy Sheridan Rally, picture taken with him, then the next thing I heard he had been given the boot.
As for Big Boab, he is out there somewhere still fighting for our Independence.
Rhiannon Spear appear to be the sort of feminist who’s penchant is for clown-shoes. Scotland will be going nowhere without a respect for the human genome and Natural Law. Simples.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-98473-5_9
We do have the technology to re-built the party, we just need someone to apply it.
Master Class: The Ontology of Gender
https://www.rug.nl/filosofie/news/events/Bauer-master-class-v3.pdf
I love how those gulls are shitting themselves laughing. A birds’ eye view at 140 ft and nae chance of bringing the column doon!
The concept of race carries historical taints of slavery, eugenics, Nazi race policy and undue emphasis of biological heritage. A “ convenient “ method of categorising people into subhuman species. I prefer ethnicity, a mix of cultural factors, including language, diet, religion and ancestry.
Our ancestors were ethnically cleansed during the Clearances. The English nationalists and Scots sycophants re-wrote Scottish history into a footnote of British history and culture. To quote Donald Anderson, the Clearances never happened and if they did, then you did it to yourselves and it was good for you. We “benefited “ by surviving in the colonies or the hell of the Clyde Industrial revolution along with the other hungry, ungrateful Celts from Ireland who refused to be Anglicised. Marx wrote in Capital of how whole Irish villages were cleared but in Scotland areas the size of German Principalities were destroyed.
Land reform is critical. Scotland is blessed with a large landmass. The basis of enslavement is to be found in the dispossession of the people from the soil. Land value taxation is an economically efficient and ethical revenue source and a more secure tax base in the age of multinationals and tax havens. Landowners should be forced, by the pressure of land taxation, either to use their land in the best possible way or give way to those who will.
I appreciate Andy Wightman”s passion and efforts re land reform. No one in the SNP Government seemed to be listening or were disinterested or couldn’t be arsed or chickened out. Take your pick. Ditto the teaching of Scottish history in our Scottish schools.
The UK government confirmed it will not apply for an extension of the transitional arrangement and will leave all its EU treaties and all the treaties the EU had with other countries on 1st January 2021.
I was looking forward to developments over the next few months being covered by
http://www.scer.scot
“The Scottish Centre on European Relations (SCER) is a new independent and unaligned EU think tank, based in Edinburgh, that will inform, debate and provide up-to-the-minute, high-quality research and analysis of European Union developments and challenges, with a particular focus on Scotland’s EU interests and policies.”
They published a report on 17 March 2020 called
https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-12533
“An Independent Scotland in the EU:
Issues for Accession”
The introduction says..
“If it is not too long after the end of the transition period in December 2020 (until when the UK will continue to be part of the EU’s single market and customs union), then Scotland will not have diverged very far, quite probably, from the EU’s body of law and regulations – its acquis.
The further the UK, and Scotland, have diverged by the time of a potential Scottish application to join the EU, then the longer the accession process may take. And, in addition, Scotland as an independent state will need to establish institutions, regulatory bodies and laws, that previously sat at UK level during the UK’s period of EU membership.”
I have never agreed with one of the contributers to one of its chapters, but I still found it a very interesting read.
Unfortunately, Kirsty Hughes of The Scottish Centre on European Relations has recently tweeted that due to lack of funding they have had to suspend activities on their websites
https://mobile.twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/1271379251409948675
We really do have the technology.
Theory and Ontology in Building Cumulative Behavioural Science
https://osf.io/9te3x/download
We now finally know the outcome of Brexit. Gove has stated no extension to transition so it’s completely out on 31st. December 2020. No ifs and no buts.
Nicola Sturgeon’s last delaying tactic of waiting for the outcome of Brexit has been exploded.
If she “resolves” this in her own head by saying we need to wait to see if it’s no deal or some kind of deal, of any description, then she will expose herself to accusations of being delusional.
The EU/UK talks have collapsed over fishing and the level playing field re regulations and state aid.
She has less than 6 months to come up with a response. There has been a lot of debate here recently about routes to independence not reliant on S.30. Most have a degree of validity and perhaps a combination of proposals will be it.
I prefer the notion of next year’s election being a plebiscite for independence, not for mere negotiation re a referendum. But it is only my preference.
The SNP have reached the Rubicon. Caesar seized the day.
Can she? She’d better because Covid economic depression plus Brexit equals unmitigated disaster.
Mibbe making a rod for my own back here, but why should a ‘normal’ Holyrood/SG election be viewed as a plebiscite on indy?
Plenty of Scots have no real interest in independence. (Sadly, some of them are SNP members.) The Scottish parliament, for all its faults, is ‘theirs’ every bit as much as it is ours. It’s meant to consider all sorts of issues *apart* from independence. (Many claim that the system was specifically designed to make sure that indy never became a ‘live’ issue anyway.)
I’m queasy about claiming any national election as a plebiscite on any specific issue – it just doesn’t feel right. If a ‘list’ pro-indy party stands and does well, fair enough, but that’s not the same thing.
David @ 12.41pm
Libby McArthur who played Gina Rossi on River City was also dumped by them and she’s also a strong supporter of Scottish Independence . More strong voices being shut down by Bbc Scotland.
Spear is clearly playing to the gallery. Her tweets should be viewed in the light of self-promotion, as she showcases her credentials to Nicola et al while there is still time. They aren’t intended to be read as arguments, just a shop window to prove her loyalty to the GRA agenda.
@ Ian B 1.44pm
It’s all very well to be queasy about using a Holyrood election as a plebiscite bud, but what’s your alternative? Given that the SNP leadership have to all intents and purposes accepted a British nationalist veto on the holding of referendums, the only plausible alternative is for the broader Yes movement and/or other pro-indy parties to force the matter and push for ANY election, whether Holyrood or Westminster, to be regarded as plebiscitary.
A positive outcome in such a vote would be just as defensible in the eyes of the international community, so I’d be quite happy with that route, as would many others I suspect.
If you don’t like it, what’s your Plan B?
(P.S.: The Pete Wishart gambit of insisting that if we win yet another mandate the yoons will suddenly be overcome with an attack of reasonableness and graciously allow us to exercise our self determination is NOT a plan, ‘K?)
@ian brotherhood
It doesn’t need to be but if Westminster intend to block a referendum, and they have, then what other option is there. We could just have a referendum but the Britnat parties along with their media will ensure the result will be seen as not valid.
This only leaves an election, if it is directly in a manifesto and 50% of the voters choose it, it seems like a legitimate vote for independence. It effectively has to be ran as a referendum, you are either voting for independence or vassalage. Other issues can be resolved after the next elections, so no legislation referring to GRA, etc should be tied to this vote.
As far as I’m concerned we voted to remain in the EU and the SNP should have made it clear not respecting the Scottish vote was an end to the union in 2016. I’m not interested in their fixation with delays, I want a proper resolution that respects Scotland’s vote. It’s time for them to get the finger out and get on with what they were elected to do.
@katherine hamilton says:
14 June, 2020 at 1:23 pm
“Nicola Sturgeon’s last delaying tactic of waiting for the outcome of Brexit has been exploded.”
It was never going to work from day one. The Brexit vote was classed as a UK vote, with no exceptions for individual countries. She’d have been better pushing for that BEFORE the bloody vote. The legal eagles will know, but I’m sure legally there’s bugger all she can do. Anyway, I think she’s past caring since she’s probably looking for a new job.
Sturgeon’s SNP and the Scottish Greens were mandated to try and keep Scotland in the EU or indyref. The SNP and Green MSPs reneged on that.
Not a single SNP or Green MSP moved for an indyref to be held.
We can exercise sovereignty at the ballot box. We are free to reject every SNP and Green MSP candidate at the ballot box.
People are free to stand for assertion of national sovereignty / rejection of UK Parliament exercising sovereign power over Scotland. People are free to vote for them.
People could have been doing that for years. Instead they gave uncritical absolute support to the SNP. They created the devolutionist dictatorship monster.
They are free to keep feeding the monster or destroy the monster by denying it any support.
@Beaker
What is the point of claiming you are sovereign and the FM quoting this “What if that other voice we all know so well responds by saying ‘we say no and we are the state’? Well, we say yes – and we are the people”, if the vote of the people is just ignored.
‘The people’ of Scotland chose the EU, the Scotgov ignored this choice. No point making the case for sovereignty then having the vote of another country overrule it.
Maggie C
The arrogance spews out of Pacific Quay.
They don’t even try to hide their bias.
They know that by committing themselves to Unionism they are gaurenteed their monthly pay cheque for life
They don’t care how their reporting affects ordinary Scots, all they have to do is tow the London line, do as you are told and keep out of Scottish politics.
And if you step out of line you disappear.
@ Capella @ 12.03pm
Re Rhiannon Spear stating :
” As the world rallies around BLM, privileged white feminism needs to have a long hard look at itself”
The word ‘Privileged’ in that statement is whataboutery….by adding privileged she is trying to give the impression that somehow the impact of this is not one that affects ALL women but only those who view themselves as ‘privileged’ or rather in her view entitled……to what ?…Feel safe ?
Well in life there ARE those who ARE privileged ( having special rights, advantages) however for her to equate or reinterpret that women seeking to protect ‘women only spaces’ is somehow ONLY being promoted by….. “privileged” women… is frankly shocking…..but not surprising considering her agenda.
It is especially shocking since her argument seems to be to promote/encourage Men , who self ID as woMEN, to having a “privileged” position to access women only spaces…. which for the safety of biological women should not ever be something that is promoted or encouraged..
Is that not then THEM, those self ID woMEN, having a “privileged” position …
So irrespective of THEIR colour,THEIR position on feminism and indeed THEIR biological sex…they get to access spaces, that through their supposed adopted ‘self identity’ , will allow them to enter these spaces but other men cannot….cause…reasons.
I think we all know who it is who needs to take a long hard look at themselves and who through their current “privileged” position is abusing that position by promoting lies or unsubstantiated propaganda…because to tag her comment onto BLM rallies and then proceed to add that it is ‘white’ ‘feminists’ is linking something which should not be linked….and insults females who are not “White” …..or indeed do not view themselves as “feminists”…..and BTW, for many of us ,who do not see ourselves as “privileged”…. but instead, if Rhiannon got her way , would in fact be extremely disadvantaged….our opposition to this is justified and worth defending…..perhaps Rhiannon should be asking do women’s lives matter ?…the biological ones that is….obvs.
To conclude… had she, Rhiannon, not included these three words…”privileged white feminists” how else could she weaponise her message….and if I may reiterate by her tagging her comment onto BLM rallies is low…very low…but also very transparent….and par for the course in this debate from HER side anyway.
Have a nice day Capella
@jfngw says:
14 June, 2020 at 2:11 pm
@ian brotherhood
“This only leaves an election, if it is directly in a manifesto and 50% of the voters choose it, it seems like a legitimate vote for independence. It effectively has to be ran as a referendum, you are either voting for independence or vassalage. Other issues can be resolved after the next elections, so no legislation referring to GRA, etc should be tied to this vote.”
I’m playing devil’s advocate here, not criticising anyone’s ideas or points of view.
The danger by using the Scottish Elections as a surrogate for an indyref, is that the voters may turn on the SNP. The turnout for the 2016 election was about 55%, indyref was 85%. That’s a lot of voters to account for.
@Colin Alexander
Who are you suggesting we vote for then to deliver this independence, Tory, Labour or LibDem?
I’m quite happy to abstain from voting at WM, spoil the ballot by just writing independence on it. If the spoilt ballots were larger than the winning vote it should send a message to the world. After all Scottish MP’s being at WM is just a waste of time anyway.
My suggestion is that we reject every current MSP / political Party for betraying Scotland’s national sovereignty eg Scotland voted to Remain in the EU or have an indyref if being Brexited.
Don’t vote: SNP, Green, Labour, Conservative or LibDem.
That leads to the question: Who should I vote for?
@Beaker
Of course it is a risk, everything in life is a risk, you never achieve anything by just being safe. I agree the turnout is low at 55% but i would hope that using it as a referendum would give the vote some impetus, after all many see the Scot elections as not that important as Holyrood has so little power.
Stoker
I do hope the snp use the faslane base as a bargaining chip. Let them continue to use, we control access, no new subs, and a very big rent and guarantees going forward
No new subs or bombs
Say for 5 to 10 years.
@colin alexander
I see a flaw in your plan, it is a Britnat Scotgov. Are you trying to con us?
ISPs aim is to back the SNP except on the GRA issue so I wouldn’t recommend them.
Stu Campbell’s Wings Party idea appears to have been empty rhetoric.
Tommy Sheridan’s Solidarity Party was also pro-SNP.
Is there any party that seeks an electoral mandate to bring back sovereignty from WM to Scotland? I don’t know of any.
Well I’m pretty sure Brexit constitutes maladministration, which is ample legal justification for Treaty withdrawal. Certainly more justiciable than English Torydum’s claim to English legal culture’s supreme authority over Scotland’s future.
What is a human-rights based approach to health and does it matter?
https://www.hhrjournal.org/2013/09/what-is-a-human-rights-based-approach-to-health-and-does-it-matter/
@Clapper57
Rhiannon Spear is a dangerous person, her ‘Privilege’ is effectively any woman (or man, but that is less important)
who disagrees with her. I believe she now just issues tweets and blocks replies, a dictator in the making I would suspect.
This group are more of a threat to independence than anyone on the opposition benches.
jfngw
My understanding of the term Britnat is that it refers to those that support the principle that sovereignty is exercised at Westminster as laid out in the Treaty of Union.
Every single current MSP, including the SNP and Greens have followed that principle. That makes them Britnat too.
UK Virus deaths today ‘lowest since March’ says MSM.
BBC numbers in as usual only for the colonies though.
Big Auntie hiding the good news till later.
Scotland ………..today….01………Total….2448…BBC
Wales……………today….03………Total….1444…BBC
N. Ireland……….today….00………Total…..541…BBC
England………….today…*27………Total no data..*SUN
===========================================================
UK………………today..no data……Total..*41689..*SUN
That’s shiting talk, Chris! Wonder how many folk know who sits atop that column?
Here’s your essential weekend reading:
How the Scots became ‘chippy’: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-nRP
jfngw
You are right. There IS a huge flaw in my plan. Currently, there are no parties / candidates that seek a mandate to declare a vote for them is a direct sovereign decision to take back sovereignty from WM to Scotland.
The SNP used to have that policy but dropped it over 20 years ago.
When SNP MPs take their seats at Westminster they accept its sovereignty.
Re: Rhiannon Spears “privelaged white” comments. I find it repulsive the way that the gender extremists try to latch on to the very real racial discrimination that black people have faced and do face in our society.
If the SNP hierarchy were actually interested in the political and social advancement of black people in Scotland perhaps they could do something about the fact that they have zero representation in the national Parliament.
All talk no action when it comes to racial equality. All action no debate when it comes to LGBTTT privelage.
If a black man in Scotland told me he was considering standing for Parliament, my first piece of advice would be to put on a dress.
Ron Maclean
When MSPs take their seats they also accept the sovereignty of UK parliament.
Every Scots MP and MSP becomes a Britnat by taking their vows to the Empress and taking their WM Imperial or Holyrood colonial parliamentary seat.
@Andy Ellis (2.08), jfngw (2.11) —
No, Andy, I don’t have an alternative, but that’s not my point.
Of course I want to see indy asap, same as everyone else here, but it’s not going to come via a process which isn’t exclusively about The Big Question (however it’s formulated next time) – we can view the SG election as a plebiscite if we want to, and get excited about a result showing, say, 70% voting for pro-indy parties. But that isn’t the same as a referendum and we’re not going to be ‘granted’ one of those things anytime soon.
It’s an impasse to be sure.
How to break it? I don’t know.
If the regional/list vote is the de facto referendum then the votes for any yes party counts for independence and furthermore the precedent is set.
I never thought I would live to see something like this.
The SNP under NS have are trying desperately to get us into a position where the Conservative party are much more progressive on Women’s and Lesbian’s rights.
In today’s Sunday Times, it is reported that May’s trans proposals are to be scrapped in favour of new protections for female only spaces and a ban on “G a y cure” therapies.
Contrast that with the SNPs proposals to allow any man who wishes to be able to gain access to female only spaces and their support for homophobic organisations which insist that Lesbians must consider men who want to be Lesbians as dating material otherwise they are trans-phobic.
How can I justify supporting Independence, if it means turning a blind eye to the SNP’s current abhorrent position on women’s/lesbian’s rights?
@ Colin Alexander 3:00pm
‘Every Scots MP and MSP becomes a Britnat by taking their vows to the Empress and taking their WM Imperial or Holyrood colonial parliamentary seat.’
I totally agree. We’re being conned.
Statue Lives Matter!
https://twitter.com/Glasgow_Times/status/1272141765844312066
Parliamentary sovereignty is simply incompatible with Scotland’s popular sovereignty. So Westminster has decided to chuck Scots and their culture under the bus, in order to satisfy the cultural demands of English Torydum. The party of independence is pressing to multiply this oppression on women living in Scotland, by consolidating cultural misogyny into Scots law.
Something needs to give.
From Constitutional to Human Rights
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/59305/1/Moller_From-constitutional-to-human-rights_2014.pdf
@ian brotherhood
Why do we need a referendum, there is no international requirement to my knowledge. It just has to be done democratically and with the wishes of the voting majority. Very few countries, to my knowledge, have become independent via a referendum. In fact the referendum route now seems to be Westminster game of keeping Scotland locked in.
Big Shout Out to all Aliens cruising around on a Sunday flight near Earth, please come and abduct me…
https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart/status/1271967921225547776
A Telegraph journalist tweeted this via a video :
” One of the protestors sharing his views while wearing a White Lives Matter t-shirt”.
The ‘Protester’ in question in the video was Paul Golding…leader of Britain First…
Many people then tweeted this fact to ‘Journalist’…who let’s be honest if he felt able to tweet a succession of tweets about the Far right thugees would surely be expected to know the individual in question….was he being deliberately disingenuous or did he really NOT know…..perhaps I am being harsh and it’s just a case of ‘ should have went to specsavers’ …Duh !
Reminds me of the time when James Mathews from SKY interviewed Hugh Gaffney in his, Hugh’s, role as a ‘Marcher’…in the GMB instigated Glasgow Women’s equal pay march….where James pretended he did not recognise Hugh as a Labour MP and Hugh did NOT disclose that he was a Labour MP but instead disclosed he was a member of a Union ( true but not TOTAL truth)
The interview went something like “Excuse me Sir why are you marching”…the response obvs was a crock of you know what….
So if one was being generous one could believe that this lack of recognition was due to Hugh’s low impact on the political stage…he was there to make up the numbers only..for Labour…if I was being less generous I would say that James as the ‘Scotland bureau chief for Sky News’ ( strange title is it not) should perhaps either do his homework or seriously consider taking up acting as his performance in that interview was indeed worthy of an award ( for finest form of fake news in action).
Hugh may have thought he ‘survived’ that performance but alas he did not survive in the 2019 GE and so now he can identify as whoever he wants to be……he may even be lucky again to be picked out by James in any subsequent orchestrated marches to voice his opinion….i.e. partisan one obvs….
Does beg the question though how are these people, Journalists, in their jobs which I guess is a rhetorical question when you understand THEIR politics and THEIR agenda….not to report but to influence.
Meant to say, regardless of photoshop, are they all from one household that doesn’t have a tape measure, as it looks like a covid physical distancing fail to me.
@Colin Alexander
You are correct in the sense of sending SNP MP’s to Westminster, if their manifesto is not independence with a majority of Scottish MP’s then it is pointless. I don’t want unionist’s in control of Holyrood though, just too dangerous.
So I probably will just stop voting for WM elections, spoilt paper seems best bet as I don’t want it to be seen as apathetic. I don’t really have that many WM elections left in me anyway so it’s probably not going to make that much difference for long.
Ian Brotherhood says:
14 June, 2020 at 1:44 pm
…I’m queasy about claiming any national election as a plebiscite on any specific issue – it just doesn’t feel right. If a ‘list’ pro-indy party stands and does well, fair enough, but that’s not the same thing.
Thing is Ian, in my opinion that isn’t necessary.
Framing an election as a de-facto referendum is no different in principle from setting up a referendum. If Westminster is going to dispute your referendum without a Section 30, you can be damned sure it’s not going to recognise the conclusion of any referendum by proxy. It could have a legal leg to stand on too, especially amongst UK allies it can persuade to see things their way.
It is clear to me now, we must act on the democratic mandate we already have; an emphatic Democratic majority wishing to remain in Europe, and use the fact that our sovereign mandate is being overruled as irrefutable proof the Treaty of Union has been flouted and breached.
The Union can thus be ended by technical dissolution; in short, one member of a bilateral treaty between constitutional equals cannot lawfully subjugate the other and expect the Treaty to survive the colonial subjugation.
Such a technical dissolution of the Union would plunge the UK into existential constitutional crisis, because the 1707 Union would be dead instantaneously, and we would be in a state of flux whether it stayed dead or could be resurrected. But staying dead or resurrection are options to be addressed by plebiscite of the Scottish people. I can live with that.
I say that, although it’s a bit more complicated because a Scottish plebiscite could not by itself resurrect the old Union, (actually, nothing could resurrect the old Union), but it could conceivably agree a new Union and have an English Parliament sign up to it… but good luck with that.
Yes, I know that paints a picture of constitutional instability for the UK and Scotland, but never lose sight of the fact such instability is already upon us, and has already been caused by reckless amateurism and constitutional illiteracy of both Westminster and Holyrood combined… the blind leading the blind leading us all into chaos.
Scotland didn’t create this mess, but Scotland’s sovereign Constitution could be, and should be, utterly ruthless and uncompromising in the way it tidies up the mess. Because if we Scots are sure footed, determined, and actually take control of the agenda, then Scottish Independence will be upon us while Westminster is still fumbling for the light switch.
Would it cause instability and unrest in Scotland? Well maybe, but that’s a loaded question. Why shouldn’t Scotland’s colonial subjugation provoke instability and unrest amongst us? Do Unionists have a monopoly on being angry and making Scotland ungovernable? Why should the anger of Unionists provoked by a doze of Constitutional justice be more visceral than the anger of a sovereign population being subjugated by a foreign colonial power that’s on the make?
I repeat. Be sure footed, uncompromising, and have our steps ratified all the way by constitutional legal process, and our professionalism will win through.
True, certain components of our society won’t like it, but with the law on our side, I believe they will struggle to gain any momentum or cohesion. Don’t forget, Scottish Unionism in Holyrood gives you Jackson Carlaw as it’s rabble rouser in chief, and it needs the dubious talents of a £3.8 billion a year BBC monopoly on news to make him look credible.
I do not believe Scotland will suffer unrest or Ulsterisation, because an Indy Scotland will be a progressive Nation in Europe, growing richer by the day. That will be vastly more seductive option that a bitter and narrow minded former UK in an economic tailspin, deregulating its economy to the lowest common denominators. It won’t be the rich men and women of England who will be feeding their kids on chlorinated chicken and 0.25mg of rat shit in their quarter pounders.
Scotland just needs to see the finish line, know that freedom is within our grasp, and have leadership with the courage to seize what is already ours. Frankly, I’ve all but given up on the SNP. There is no justification or need for their interminable prevarication.
I’m a big fan of Joanna Cherry, but it’s time for action, now. Leadership contests and conferences, and this imminent civil war with the wokies are superfluous to what needs to be done and done in weeks, if not days. We are now desperately short of time.
@ Ian Brotherhood 3.03pm
The way to break the impasse is simply for the SNP, Scottish Greens and any other pro-indy parties to announce that in the event any British nationalist government fails to honour the Edinburgh Agreement precedent of 2012, all subsequent national elections whether to Holyrood or Westminster.
In the event that pro-indy parties gain 50% + 1 in any such election, that result will automatically be taken as signifying Scotland’s independence.
Agreement on that should take the pro-indy parties a week at most.
jfngw at 325pm,
I completely concur. Few countries have achieved independence after a referendum. A democratic parliamenary success, is usually adequate. Most major political decisions are taken without a referendum, even going to war, FFS. So, I too cannot understand the obsession with a referendum. All you need is a democratic vote of some kind.
When folk suggest it might not get international approval, they really miss the point. Democratic countries, won’t concur when their is vote manipulation, or forced voting, or some other kind of corruption. Foreign government are not going to say to Scotland, ‘oh well, you have just been re-elected with a thumping result, but actually we don’t think that’s quite good enough’. It is corruption they object to.
Of course folk say, that electoral victory would not be accepted because, it isn’t a total majority of voters, or of the people, but then again, no voting system is. A referendum only reflects the wishes of those who partake, so it could equally be argued (if we use the same logic), that a referendum is not sufficient either.
The fact is, that in any other country of the world getting f***ed by England, as Scotland is, they would use any and whatever means of ensuring independence. It would be their government main priority, not stupid gender laws, or silly ‘hate’ laws designed to protect their silly gender laws.
If, at the end of the day, London refuses to accept the result, so what? The very second Scotland becomes independent, Westminster becomes a foreign government, which has no formal say in proceedings. Right now, London has few friends, so do we realy think, Eu countries will all join in, and agree with London.
All that needs done, is that it is made clear we tried to have a referendum, but it was blocked by England, so we used the next election as a simple vote to end the voluntary union between Scotland and England. I cannot imagine any country refusing to accept that.
But of course it isn’t going to happen, since the SNP imagine that by continually begging London’s permission, somewhow The English clown prime minister will change his mind. A pathetic policy, if ever their was one.
We do not need England’s permission to become independent. If we do, then we never, ever will. It is that freaking simple. Besides, for most of my life, the accepted route to Scottish independence was merely a simple majority of pro indy MP’s elected to Westminster. It really was that simple, and was accepted even by the Tories and Thatcher. When we achieved that, I fully expected independence would follow. Instead we got nothing, not even Devo-max. Slow hand clap for the SNP.
It is awfully convenient for some careerists within the SNP, to continually ‘muddy the waters’ regarding all of this. And now, in 2020, it is even harder, since according to them we not only need a referendum, but we also need a section 30 (according to some dimwits in the SNP).
The SNP, making independence harder, with every passing year.
“Regarding BBC Scotland dumping pro Indy employees.
Did they not kick Big Boab and the Doctor characters off of River City.
I met the Doctor character in George Sq at Tommy Sheridan Rally, picture taken with him, then the next thing I heard he had been given the boot.”
David.
I honestly couldn’t tell you though it wouldn’t surprise me one little bit if they did.
Andy Ellis at 348pm,
Indeed. And by simply doing so, a section 30 would be in the next post. The SNP need to create leverage, but right now, they just keep begging for a section 30, their is no threat. No wonder the Tories laugh at them. I would too, if I were PM.
Sturgeon is not a Catalan nationalist, she will not declare indyref2 or UDI without Westminster’s consent in the way Catalan nationalists were prepared to defy Madrid, even at the risk of jail or exile
@jngw, Breeks, Andy Ellis –
Mibbe I’m just being a bit ‘glass-half-empty’!
😉
Breeks at 344pm,
Excellent points. Could you have a word with NS, since she seems to have no idea on political strategy or how to achieve independence.
You are quite correct that the EU vote is the absolute clincher, in terms of treaty dissolution. The treaty has been dissolved by London’s actions alone. Scotland didn’t have to do anything.
@ Robert Louis 3.52pm
I fear Nicola and her cosy devolusionists are already setting the scene for “Just one more mandate folk! No…we REALLY mean it this time….one more push and we’re there: honest…yous can trust us…..” at Holyrood 2021. Then they’ve bought themselves another 4 years to prevaricate and burnish yet another mandate for the mandate cupboard.
By that time it’ll be time for Westminster GE of 2024, so…you know who can resist going for mandate number 12. I mean, the Britnats are BOUND to see reason and let us have our Gold Standard indyref then, right…?
I mean Pete Wishart as good as guaranteed it, and we all know what a very stable political genius he is, huh……?
(We’re fucked aren’t we….? #Indyref2039 anyone?)
Time for a bit of international law?
European Journal of International Law, Volume 26, Issue 3, August 2015, Pages 607–634,
Alternative Dispute Resolution and Human Rights: Developing a Rights-Based Approach through the ECHR
Abstract
The presumption that courts are the principal forum for dispute resolution continues to be eroded. Alternative forms of dispute resolution (ADR), including agreement-based ADR (such as mediation and conciliation) and adjudicative ADR (such as arbitration), continue to proliferate and are increasingly institutionalized, leading to their characterization as ‘appropriate’ or ‘proportionate’ dispute resolution.
Interestingly, despite these developments, the position of international human rights law (IHRL) on two key questions regarding ADR and proportionate dispute resolution (PDR) is unclear. These questions are, first, the standards of justice expected of ADR/PDR (whether entered into voluntarily or mandatorily). Second, the permissible circumstances in which parties to a dispute can be required to use ADR/PDR instead of, or before, accessing courts.
The attributes and challenges with ADR/PDR have been discussed extensively in socio-legal studies, feminist literature and the dedicated ADR/PDR literature. This article seeks to bring this vast theory on the diversification and institutionalization of dispute resolution into IHRL. Through the lens of the European Court of Human Rights, this article examines the types of tests that supranational bodies currently employ and advances a framework for assessing the choice, design and implementation of ADR/PDR in the future.
https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/26/3/607/2599587
Hi Ian Brotherhood at 3:03 pm.
You typed,
“It’s an impasse to be sure.
How to break it? I don’t know.”
Watch this, at least from 14:30, where he says,
“Anyway… that’s the declaration of Arbroath… independence… where do we go from here?
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/04/the-declaration-of-arbroath-and-the-way-forward-now/
I wonder if there are any constitutional experts out there who might explain how Brexit can be considered compatible with social democracy, and the principle of universal human rights?
human rights based approaches (HRBA) – International Human Rights
https://www.ihrnetwork.org/what-are-hr-based-approaches_189.htm
Breeks
Joanna Cherry said it takes a democratic event to take sovereignty back to Scotland.
Ian Brotherhood says:
14 June, 2020 at 3:55 pm
@jngw, Breeks, Andy Ellis –
Mibbe I’m just being a bit ‘glass-half-empty’!
?
Well, that probably gives your glass a much better trajectory for speed and distance…. if things continue to unfold at the snails pace they are at present…
@Breeks –
Ach well, seeing as we’re all waiting I’m as well topping it up with some Scrumpy and bitter lemon.
Slainte!
😉
@ Cameron 4.22pm
One doesn’t have to be a constitutional expert to note that, in general, the international community doesn’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about social democracy and the principle of human rights, as bloodstained Catalan grannies at polling stations remind us.
@ Breeks 8.54am I TOTALLY concur with your assertions Breeks but as you point out at least HE is trying and doing something , unlike the complacent and subservient FM and SNP SG .Where there is NO mention of independence or response to Barniers statement
People could try legal challenges to the Union.
But UK Parliament is a law unto itself.
So far courts would not interfere in decisions of UK Parliament. As Parliament is regarded as superior (sovereign) to the courts.
It comes from the ENGLISH constitutional law: Bill of Rights.
Case Law: Pickin v British Railways Board [1974] AC 765— “It must surely be for Parliament to lay down the procedures which are to be followed before a bill can become an Act. It must be for Parliament to decide whether its decreed procedures have in fact been followed. It must be for Parliament to lay down and to construe its standing orders and further to decide whether they have been obeyed; it must be for Parliament to decide whether in any particular case to dispense with compliance with such orders. It must be for Parliament to decide whether it is satisfied that an Act should be passed in the form and with the wording set out in the Act. It must be for Parliament to decide what documentary material or testimony it requires and the extent to which Parliamentary privilege should attach.”
Andy Ellis
I just don’t want folk to forget, or let the BritNats have their way without acknowledging their right-wing authoritarianism. 😉
Would somebody please try to re-edumacate the SNP, they’re a bit of an embarrassment at present.
RIGHTS-BASED APPROACHES TO SOCIAL PROTECTION
https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/publications-opinion-files/1700.pdf
I think any legal case would have to challenge that the principle of unlimited UK Parliamentary Sovereignty has no legal basis in Scots Law rather than challenging any secondary legislation made by UK Parliament.
That could be by several bases of legal argument:
1. The Union Treaty itself was NEVER lawful for reasons already well discussed.
2. The Union Treaty is the international Treaty of Union, not the domestic legislation that gave ratification, eg the “Act of Union with England 1706”. The Treaty of Union has been breached by UK Parliament legislating in areas where the Treaty did not permit, so if it was legal, it has been voided by egregious abuses of the Treaty, such as point 3.
3. The Treaty legislated for one GB parliament and that that parliament can make laws for Scotland but it does not say that UK Parliament is “sovereign”.
UK Parliament has assumed unlimited sovereignty based on English pre-Union constitutional law. The Treaty bound the power of GB Parliament by stating some Articles of Union were for all time but UK Parliament legislated to breach those Articles.
4. There then follows the arguments of continuing Scottish sovereignty also the right to self-determination in international law etc. Sovereign power comes from the people and the will of the people is now clarified or established via democratic decisions. So it’s the people of Scotland who are always sovereign, not their elected representatives or their parliament.
—————————-
I would expect every one of those arguments to be rejected but that’s because the courts are UK courts who have already decided UK Parliament IS sovereign.
———————————
There is also a high chance that the courts would simply refuse to rule on this matter by arguing the sovereignty of UK Parliament in the Union versus Scottish sovereignty is a political matter, not a legal one. It’s something to be decided by election, or referendum, not by judges.
In the EU as a “minister” Sturgeon had the right to be recognised by the EU.
Sturgeon could have argued Art 50 was unlawfully triggered because the people of Scotland voted Remain. That UK Parliament effectively denied Scotland a voice by making it a UK-wide EU-Ref then ignoring Scotland’s Remain vote. She chose not to. That’s because Sturgeon and the SNP 100% accepted sovereignty of UK Parliament.
In her dealings with the EU she accepted A50 Brexit vote by UK Parliament. She also accepted the UK-EU Withdrawal deal with its N.I. backstop that discriminates against Scotland. That’s factual record, not opinion.
Is see Maurice Golden was BBC Scotland’s goto quote in their news, you would get more sense listening to a wet fart.
Also the loyalist near riot in George Square presented as two opposing groups, the loyalists and an unnamed invisible group they could not manage to get any video of.
Plums Cameron plums.
Labelling people as far right is lazy bastard politics.
@Dogbiscuit 9.03am
Such labels are however ubiquitous. Of course they can be used inaccurately, often on purpose and for pejorative effect, but they also serve a purpose.
Just as one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, what someone who has the epithet “far right” (or far left, or socialist, or fascist or democrat etc. etc.) attached to them actually believes may vary. Some will revel in the description, others will bristle at it.
Like any description, over use may render it essentially meaningless, or tend to lessen its impact, whether it’s seen as an insult or just a convenient descriptor or means of classifying different “flavours” of right of centre politics.
In the end however, as Lord Hughes said when discussing dishonesty in Ivey v Genting Casinos (2017, UKSC 67) “like the elephant, it is characterised more by recognition when encountered than by definition.”
Just spotted this on twitter – seems like some people are already organising.
https://twitter.com/Wifty8/status/1272243827227734022