Truth With Torrance
Posted on
February 05, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
An exchange from Twitter this morning:
Should we check out that link and find out whether the then-FM really DID “claim that the Scottish NHS would be privatised if Scots voted No”, readers? Let’s do!
Oh, right. So the opposite thing, then. As you were, everyone.
More rancid candidates for the’So and so is liar’ series.
You don’t do enough of them Rev. Your best works!
My dateline timestamp puts him in Southland NZ?
“Truth With Torrance”?
OR….how about….Tall Tory Tales?
I would forward this to Torrance and remind him he is an egregious bounder and a twat, but he blocked me for some reason.
Oh dear another Tory journalist spinning lies as truth. Keep outing them Stuart.
Really, this story, and indeed claim by Torrance, is based on a journalists interpretation of what Alex Salmond was meaning rather than anything written or said by current FM Nicola.
Unionist journos are a sneaky bunch. They could Limbo dance under a snake.
Och, be nice, Rev, I’m sure he was simply confused. What he meant to say was clearly
“What about an update on the FM’s claim that the Scottish NHS would be threatened by budget cuts as a result of NHS England being relentlessly privatised if Scots voted No in 2014? Thanks.”
You can see how his central point is not in any way affected by the ommission of such a trifling little detail.
Burn!
Wetabix not good with with memory,accuracy then another SNPBAD article shreadyed
Mr Torrance has a tendency for fibbing and contorting the truth (its called spin I believe).
That’s why he works for whats left of the once proud Scottish press & is never off the BBC !
There are hardly any journalists left so they resort to using the likes of such Tory Party cheer-leading ‘Hacks’.
He’ll end up at the Daisley Mail & all !
David Tory Torrance is never going to cut it as a Spad. He simply can’t spin a story for falling over his own feet.
The simple fact is that bites are already being taken out of the English NHS and that ultimately will affect Barnett and SNHS funding. With May beholden to the US for some sort of trade deal this can only get worse.
If Torrance can’t remember the arguments of three years ago then he better not come up with pish about “once in a generation” referendums. The last one has clearly passed out of his living memory.
As I’ve said before, I’ll say it again, David Torrance is a liar, David Torrance tells lies, he can’t even use Google to fact check stuff
I see Mr Torrance still hasn’t got over the former FMs letter to the Herald then. 🙄
Mind you, his career is based on writing about things which he has only the shakiest grasp of and only a passing resemblance to in accuracy, soooo…
I’m not big on twitter, but didn’t he wave a teary farewell to it a wee while back? Never darken its door again. Snotty column written in the Sundays on his brave, but futile brush with the dark heart of social meeja kinda thing? (shrugs)
Anything else happen whilst I’ve been oot this weekend?
Torrance should be apologising along with his fellow no voters not trying to be a pedantic bastard trying to prove did she didn’t she. The NHS IS heading for a pay as you use service in the future. Who the f cares if Nicola said it or not? Get a grip you twat Torrance. These shitebags have made me and my family pay for doctors visits and operations soon. Makes me so angry.
IF Scotland does not break free, and does find itself Brexited and slung over a barrel for a TTIP inspired US Trade Deal, then our Scottish NHS is going to be in very great peril.
link to archive.is
If Mr Smugness Torrance believes the threat to our NHS if we elect to stay in the U.K. was all bluster, then he is an idiot,… but I rather suspect we all knew that already.
I am not all that familiar with Daisley…nor likely to be as I never pick up a Daily Heil, however, the latest fuss is on Facebook and this is the first time I have ever seen a picture of him. I did have a mental image of a thin, hungry looking, budding journalist, keen to make his mark but crushed by the we, slightly, critical cybernats. He is older and somewhat more of a salad dodger than I expected. In which case I am inclined to say get a grip you whiny fanny.
Jeez this guy is a prize plum.
Truth and Torrance – cannot compute – when writing about anything he has to have a dig at snp and indy – not to be believed – post truth, alt truth and then torrance truth and every one just LIES. You cannot possibly claim to be a journalist, read something and then write the opposite unless your powers of interpretation and reasoning are seriously in doubt. Reminds me of Kezia and the Hosie interview on TV – when she listened, listened again very carefully and still got it very wrong.
BTW, thanks Rev, this is going straight into my ‘Fib Files’ along with all the others from the WOS Archives. Top class ammo!
I don’t think any of these liars realise that all the lies and deception now gets recorded on very public record, that we now live in times where anyone can be in touch with someone as far away as Australia in a matter of seconds.
These scumbags better realise pronto that their words will live long after they’ve expired and their remaining families will have to live with the constant embarrassing humiliation of what a pure pile of smouldering crap their relative was.
Tar & Feather is Better Together, eh!
HandandShrimp says:
5 February, 2017 at 11:30 am
David Tory Torrance is never going to cut it as a Spad. He simply can’t spin a story for falling over his own feet.
link to order-order.com
Just watched this toryboy, on the Ligger Neil Vote tory BBC Politics show, explain clearly why we all must now give Teresa the Brexit “benefit of the doubt,” 8 months after their ref and still no actual Brexit plan.
He’s a nice Spad but the Ligger left out stuff like,
“Brainbox Newman is a sound hire, he has a very strong knowledge of Whitehall and is respected in the Lobby. Before advising Gove he worked for Francis Maude at the Cabinet Office during the reform of trade union Pilgrims.”
BBC liars, the worlds finest.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Truth With Torrance An exchange from Twitter this morning: Should we check out that link and see if the FM […]
Fluffy Mundel on the Sunday Politics..”I’m no feart!”..lol
gordoz
“Mr Torrance has a tendency for fibbing and contorting the truth (its called spin I believe).”
But if you take the P out spin, its true nature becomes apparent.
Torrance and Trump have much in common
How sad is it the herald has been reduced to this
Don’t these Great British liars know that every time they lie about Scotland and it’s government(to serve their British Nationalist paymasters),they will now be found out and exposed to an ever increasing number of people.
Their credibility,or what’s left of it will just diminish with each new lie.A smidgen of truth and constructive criticism about Scotland and her government now and again would surely serve them better.
One can only assume they are either totally consumed with hatred for Scotland or they are pathological liars.
I’m at it.
Both we and they know it is both obviously.
It all comes so easy to the British.
Lying,warmongering, profligacy,with a wee bit of sex abuse appeasing thrown in for good measure.
That’s your country Torrance,and that of every other Brit nat out there who promotes and protects British values.Nearly forgot about ‘tolerance’.That would be tolerance of the above three British state qualities.
It is amazing that young Torrance is incapable of reading and researching and so happy to contort , mislead and lie.
Wonder where he thinks it will ultimately take him? Nice that the BBBC in Scotland and Herald is willing to fund his lifestyle.
I saw the SOS for Scotland trying to sow more of the Ruth Harrison idea of fratricide on the Brewer special – horrid little man.
Another good article from Iain Macwhirter in Sunday herald
link to heraldscotland.com
Mundell on Sunday Politics….
Brewer just let him fillibuster his way out of trouble…no real attempt to stop him, interrupt him, nothing.
You can only imagine the carnage of interruptions and ‘shout overs’ if an SNP politician had tried what Mundell did.
All Brewer had to do was to clearly state, “since you flat refuse to answer the question asked, we can all assume that you agree with everything Fallon said”.
(Mundell starts again…)
“No Mr Mundell, shut up now, you had your chance but chose to slaver pish”
Ony excuse for this wee gem..
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Sorry O/T too soon but cannae help myself!
Sunday politics – Fluffy Blunder confirming he’s nothing more than a robot and one that’s on a loop.
heedtracker
I see Jim Murphy is now working for Tony Blair’s ‘Let’s see if I can get back into politics’ team.
Nae chance, I’d say, even before he took on Murphy.
Technically I don’t suppose he is a SPAD… … SPUD? maybe?
Unionist pants on fire again.
Yoon media can no longer distinguish between truth and lies. Years of spin and twisting, combined with a generous dose of made up stories, have created the altered reality they occupy.
Torrance probably believes that the SNHS privatisation claim was actually made because it would fit into his other world view.
@Bob MACK says: 5 February, 2017 at 11:22 am:
” … Unionist journos are a sneaky bunch. They could Limbo dance under a snake.”
I’m not sure if that’s true or not, Bob, but I’m sure a snake couldn’t Limbo Dance under their bellies because they are far much lower than any snakes belly.
All Yoons are psychic so they are able to say what we’re all thinking and then just write that
Saves writing actual facts
If there’s anybody left in Scotland who’s not now clamouring for a referendum after Mundells performance on Sunday Politics they’ve got rocks in their heads or bits missing from their Noodle links or they should be sticking their fingers in light sockets to waken themselves up
Re:Mundell
Fluffly trying to do his Dirty Harry act this morning. But Mundell trying to come over as some kind of tough guy just doesn’t hack it.
He told the world that “He is not feart”,that is when the interview became a total joke. He also constantly reminded us that “The Polls” show there is no appetite for IndyRef2.
I just can’t take this guy seriously, he is an utter laughing stock.
Chick McGregor says:
5 February, 2017 at 12:19 pm
heedtracker
I see Jim Murphy is now working for Tony Blair’s ‘Let’s see if I can get back into politics’ team.
That’s an interesting recruitment, red toryboys bettertogether. Cant see Murphy making much of an impact, after the mess he made of SLab. Its like they’re plants, or something:D
Alex Salmond 18th August 2014 Arbroath:
First opportunity of independence is “To protect our publicly-owned, publicly-run NHS from Westminster privatisation and cuts.”
Apology to Mr Torrance please
What’s ironic is that the second bit clarifies that the threat is from “privatisation” outwith Scotland.
Given the fuss about NHS Scotland’s use of agency workers as a form of privatisation it’ll take a special kind of doublethink to deny the reality when, in England and Wales, the infrastructure is sold to investors under the guise of them investing. When even the medical staff are all supplied via external agencies. When extra funding is sourced by increasing use of previously publicly owned NHS facilities by private health providers on a rental basis. The NHS won’t be privatised but will be as far as possible be provided by the private sector which will channel funds into profits.
@ Thrawn
Go fuck yourself
Whenever I hear them start to talk about the Great Repeal Bill I immediately think that they are going to talk about “The Great Ramondo” of Fools and Horses fame.
One is a comedy act and the other is serious UK Government policy.
You can make your own mind of of which one is which.
The Scottish Secretary (Conservative)
is not free to think for himself.
Repeating the same ten-part-sentence in a different order depending what the question is, is pathetic. A total fanny.
Another Union Dividend says:
It is. One point Macwhirter makes which I completely and totally agree with ….
“ Scots must be made aware that they’re now in the last chance saloon as far as Europe is concerned. After Brexit is a done deal, Scotland will be locked into a new incorporating Union, and secession will be fiercely resisted by a highly centralised UK state. ”
…. once Brexit has happened there is no way Scotland will escape the Union, ever.
We need IndyRef2 well within the next two years.
@DerekM
I take it from your considered and eloquent response you don’t take kindly to being exposed as a liar, hypocrite and fool…but please…take comfort from that fact that you are not alone on this website…
“If Mr Smugness Torrance believes the threat to our NHS if we elect to stay in the U.K. was all bluster, then he is an idiot,… but I rather suspect we all knew that already.”
When you appreciate that someone holds beliefs that conflict with the principles of their scientific training, it’s a safe bet you’re dealing with a fantasist. A magical thinker.
BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:
5 February, 2017 at 12:35 pm
Whenever I hear them start to talk about the Great Repeal Bill I immediately think that they are going to talk about “The Great Ramondo” of Fools and Horses fame.
Their Great Reform Bill is a very clear and present threat to Scots devo and Holyrood, let alone all the massive EU legal rights the English decided they can live without.
The Football Leaks website claims that in August 2014, the TV historian Dan Snow emailed Beckham’s PR advisor, Simon Oliveira, to ask if the former Manchester United star would back the pro-Union Better Together campaign.
It is claimed Mr Oliveira declared that “clearly the right thing is that we stay together due to our history and because we are stronger” and advised the star: “I think your support will play well with the establishment and, in turn, help your knighthood.”
Beckham allegedly replied: “OK, let’s do it.”
Mr Oliveira then apparently drafted a statement which read: “I took as much satisfaction in seeing Sir Chris Hoy or Andy Murray win gold as I did watching Jess Ennis and Mo Farah do the same in the Olympic Stadium.
“My sincere hope is that you will vote to renew our historic bond, which has been such a success over the centuries and the envy of the entire world.
“What unites us is much greater than what divides us. Let’s stay together. David Beckham.”
link to sundaypost.com
The real issue now is when to have a Indy referendum. Personally I would hold off as long as possible as brexit problems increase but als as more young voters come on the scene.Either way the campaign should be short and punchy say 6 months.
‘Truth with Torrance’….a contradiction in terms.
@DerekM
I take it from your considered and eloquent response you don’t take kindly to be being exposed as a liar, hypocrite and fool.
But please…take comfort, if you can, from the fact that you are far from being alone in that on this website
David Tosser is nothing more than a another Establishment “Useful Idiot”.
The Yoon media use and abuse people like him whenever it suit THEM.
The sad thing is, they don’t even know they are being used and abused.
BBC Scotland Tells Lies wrote:
“He also constantly reminded us that “The Polls” show there is no appetite for IndyRef2.”
No, they wouldn’t, not if you poll the prats in Warminster.
😉
__________
Lurkers and newbies,
BUM bandit alert!
Try and avoid the direct link in the first comment at 12:11pm. Clicking on that link helps to pull in advertising revenue for the scumbags who run that rags stable.
Another very good reason for archiving articles is that it prevents those articles from being sneakily changed later on, which Unionists are fond of doing.
Archiving also prevents unsightly long links from going right across the page.
Nope i just think you are a dick and a yoon troll who is full of shit.
Simple Torrance, Daisley and the rest are all complicit with Project Fear 1, Brexit and it’s fall out in Scotland.
Damage to SNHS, US Trade instead of the EU with all the GM foodstuffs etc.
They all went along with the narrative pushed by Downing St and The Scottish Office, never challenging or investigating like they should have as journalists.
And all for money and due to their own self loathing at being born Scottish and not English so they cling to the idea of being ‘British’ and will defend the Union at all costs.
History will show them for what they are.
A good push by Harvies greens or the Scots Gov on TTIP, GM and steroid filled foodstuffs versus EU Protected status Scottish produce would bring round more Soft NOs.
@Macart says: 5 February, 2017 at 11:33 am:
“Anything else happen whilst I’ve been oot this weekend?”
Yes indeed, Macart. Wee Willie Rennie has made an FOI request, (supposedly on the Scottish tax payer’s behalf), and has announced to the World, (As a service to the public, you understand), that, “One patient in Dumfries & Galloway was kept in hospital for 508 days”.
Now correct me if I’m wrong, (mind you, some might, as usual, correct me if I’m not wrong, but that’s o.k. too), But I digress.
Now, if I’m not wrong, would that not be the fault of the local council controlled local area Hospital’s Board and the Local Council’s Social Work Department?
Anyway, it seems the MSM, Broadcasters and Wee Wullie Rennie, think it is the fault of the Scottish Government.
The SG state that the statistics show, “Bed Days associated with delayed discharge dropped in 2016 compared to 2015”.
I wonder how much Scottish taxpayer’s money Wee Wullie, and his LibDem party, will continue to waste in order to highlight how bad the Tories are at running the Dumfries & Galloway Hospital Services? The LibDems already owe a big bill to Police Scotland for policing their party conference in Dunfermline.
Does that wee nyaff think Scots taxpayers money is all subsidised by the English taxpayer or perhaps grows on trees?
Derek M @ 12.34 Ha Ha best way to reply to the arsehole , this item used to be found lurking on Bella .I guess its homeless now and looking for someone to feed it .
@ Thrawn
Or should i call you Torrance hmmm?
@Thrawn 12.37
The person being exposed as a stranger to the truth here is David Torrance.I would have thought that is patently obvious.
Newbies and lurkers,
BUM bandit alert No2 at 12:45pm.
(the first comment at 12:45pm)
And these people wonder why these rags repeatedly crap all over us. Time for an hour or two in the garden me thinks!
Stoker
Re; Mundell and Polls,
I agree Stoker, and we are told that in this modern fast moving world we live in that we have to ignore all polls because they have been wrong in their predictions.
They must mean ignore all poll results-except ones that show support for IndyRef2 is dropping.
That is the world Mundell lives in.
@Thrawn
What Alec Salmond actually said was …
“To protect our publicly-owned, publicly-run NHS forever from Westminster privatisation and cuts.”
… which is quite different from saying that privatisation would follow with a NO vote.
He is certainly NOT claiming what Torrance said.
The point of a YES vote is that WM can never interfere again, privatisation or otherwise.
Whether Alex Salmond did or didn’t say this is immaterial. What we now need to understand is how the UK got into the Brexit situation. The manoeuvring that has brought us to this juncture has been going on for many years, public opinion manipulated to make the EU out as a horrid stepparent to be ditched at all costs in favour of Uncle America. The right wing press did their job as part of a much larger conspiracy, and those who voted for Brexit (and privatisation of the NHS) walked straight into it without query.
George Monbiot’s article in the Guardian lays out the long trail that has led us to where we are. Chilling. And the prospect of reversal is too huge to contemplate. Scotland must save itself for the sake of everyone who lives here.
This is the link to the article on Monbiot’s own website to save upping the newspaper’s readership. A must read to understand what we are up against.
link to monbiot.com
I paid an insurance stamp all of my working life this I was. Told covered my entitlement to the NHS if at some point I have to start to pay for some of the NHS services can I then sue the government for miss selling me an insurance policy ?
@DerekM
My…your wit and erudition would not have been out of place in the court of Louis XIV…Voltaire himself would have retreated in shame and humilation at your stilletto-like bons mots.
If only we could meet in public so I could witness first hand the power of your rhetoric…oratory that I imagine rivals those Titans of past and present – Socrates, Demosthenes, Cicero, Lincoln, Mhairi Black….sigh
@ Thrawn
“Apology to Mr Torrance”
Do you really believe that a privatised English NHS would not have a knock on effect on the pocket money budget of the resolutely non-privatised Scots NHS?
Taking Alex Salmond’s quotes out of context is exactly what the British MSM does, please don’t try that sorry old game on here, we’re not buttoned up at the back.
You know you just gave yourself away David,you should learn not to play with this cybernat troll,i eat little yoon trolls for breakfast.
We all have a low opinion of what Brexit UK will be like. Regulations, standards, rights, common decency, all cast aside in a fanatical right wing purge.
This tweet caught my attention ….
David Halliday ?@DavidJFHalliday
Nationalist populism needs a target. In post-Brexit Britain, Scotland will be it.
When the mad bad fanatics are on their destructive orgy, does anyone not believe they will turn their attentions to the troublesome Scots?
We MUST get out!
@galamcennalath
Firstly…my apologies…the website (Morning star would you believe…was the first I found on Google) I took the quote from, had it as i posted.
However the addition of forever changes nothing given that the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems have repeatedly promised they will never privatise the NHS…if you accept “forever” as being the truth then you have to accept “never” also
Also the line is quite clear..Independence = public NHS – Union = privatised NHS. You can use all the sophistry you want to get out of admitting it but Torrance was right…deal with it
New book released; Tam Tory Pepper Tales by D.Torrance.
@Thrawn,
To be exact about it, the claim would have been made by an ex FM.
As far as I know Nicola is the current FM, and Mr Torrance is rather sneakily insinuating the current FM had made those remarks.
English interpretation at school was a useful tool. You should have tried it.
@ Thrawn
An apology, a backtrack, a belief that the Tories don’t lie and finally calling an explanation of the facts “sophistry”.
We think you’re a troll… deal with it.
@Thrawn says: 5 February, 2017 at 12:43 pm
“please…take comfort from that fact that you are not alone on this website.”
Strange that, please note, Thrawn, neither are you.
The truth is that not only is what’s left of the English,( a.k.a. UK), NHS largely dependent upon agency staff but they already hive off very many things to the private sector. No matter what they call it, it is privatisation.
There is not a single aspect of the English, (a.k.a.UK),NHS that is not in a far worse state than that of the Scottish NHS. Every published statistic not only falls below the required standard but is well below the level achieved by our Scottish Government run Scottish NHS.
Unless, of course, you can show otherwise.
Can you?
DerekM says:
5 February, 2017 at 1:15 pm
You know you just gave yourself away David,you should learn not to play with this cybernat troll,i eat little yoon trolls for breakfast.
Good roughage or is it ruffage? Nice display of planet toryboy tribal politics though.
eg.
“If only we could meet in public so I could witness first hand the power of your rhetoric…oratory that I imagine rivals those Titans of past and present – Socrates, Demosthenes, Cicero, Lincoln, Mhairi Black….sigh”
The other end of the tory UKOK poopshoot is, planet toryboy Barnett Consequentials shyste. Pump hundreds of billions into England, with Scots on the account, then bullshit us we’ll get something out of it all.
When though planet toryboy?
Soon sucka sweaties.
How soon planet toryboy?
Soon.
If only we could meet in public so I could witness first hand the power of your rhetoric
Thrawn
You can – we meet up in public regularly. Just check the off-topic thread for the next one.
Can I just be clear here. 😉
As some peeps know I live in D&G and as such I suffer the ignominy of having Scruffy “brain deid” Fluffy as my M.P.
Let me be clear. If that TWAT stood within poking distance of me he would not be getting poked he would be getting something 100 to 1,000 times worse! 😀
If anyone hears, or sees me, voting for Scruffy then one thing is absolutely clear … I’M DEID! 😛
P.S.
The same goes for that PRAT of a son of his as well!
Thrawn
This was from the Guardian last year in response to Owen Smith’s accusation that there has been an explosion in the privatisation of the English NHS
The available evidence bears out Owen Smith’s claim that NHS privatisation is increasing, but it is less of the “explosion” that the Labour leadership hopeful warns about and more of a gradual but inexorable, rise in the proportion of the NHS budget going to firms such as Virgin Care, Care UK and Bupa. It is also noteworthy that the private sector has been making ever bigger inroads into several key areas of NHS care, notably general practice, community services and mental health care.
What would be sophistry is to pretend, as Torrance appears to have that done, that following a No vote in 2014 the English NHS would be instantly privatised. It is a huge organisation with many strands but the Tories are bit by bit taking the provision out of public service. I see nothing incorrect with what Alex said (and neither do a fair number of the Labour Party MPs in England) but I do see a fair bit of silliness in what Torrance said.
@Tam the Bam. says: 5 February, 2017 at 1:02 pm:
“The person being exposed as a stranger to the truth here is David Torrance.I would have thought that is patently obvious.”
You must realise, Tam, and it is a simple true fact, I’ve never met a Unionist in my entire life who was not delusional and who would crumble to dust if asked to explain virtually anything whatsoever of why Westminster was both the United Kingdom Parliament and the de facto parliament of England.
They cannot justify the truth but delude themselves that it is the legal truth. If it was, why cannot they bring any legal proof to the debate?
I don’t normally feed Trolls @ Thrawn says at 1:21 pm but I’ll indulge you.
You state “Also the line is quite clear..Independence = public NHS – Union = privatised NHS..”
Thrawn the way I see it is this:
Scotland in Union = 15% of Fiscal levers controlled by Scotland’s Govt (regardless which party is in power)
Scotland in Union means that a reduction in England’s NHS budget = A % reduction in money given to Scotland’s NHS budget as part of Barnett Consequencials
Therefore privatisation of England’s NHS automatically = a % reduction in reduction in money given to Scotland’s NHS budget as part of Barnett Consequencials
Independence = 100% control of fiscal levers controlled by Scotland’s Govt (regardless which party is in power)
Independence = Scotland’s Govt can decide what to make Budget priorities (SNHS for example over trident, HS2 etc.)
Torrance and his fellow Unionist Propagandists can’t envisage Scotland following a different path with different values and goals to the ones the UK currently takes and has.
It appears you can’t either which is a pity.
Thrawn says:
Oh, we Scots don’t need reminding that that Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems have repeatedly promised all sorts …. which were reneged upon. You obviously missed NO campaigning promises during Indyref1.
Personally I believe exactly that is hard right Brexiteers Tory policy.
However, you won’t find an FM actually say “NO = privatisation”. And that was Torrance’s false claim.
@Conan the Librarion
An honest apology because I made an honest mistake…but one that made no difference to the point the FM of the time stated the only way to eliminate the absolutely non-existant threat of Scottish NHS privitisation was to vote for independence.
@DerekM
I really didnt expect you to highlight my irony quite so starkly with your outpouring of deranged word salad but thanks anyway…slow handclap
@HandandShrimp
Thanks for the invite…can’t wait!!..If this comment thread is anything to go by you’re all reasonable open-minded people who welcome have their pre-conceptions challenged by those with differing opinions…awesome!!
O/T – The Claim of Scotland – H J Paton
If of interest to anyone – (since a friend was inquiring recently).
No Copies available via Amazon; but … see below
link to abebooks.co.uk
@Thrawn,
You would count yourself as open minded and reasonable ? Ha ha ha
It is a wonder you are not criticising yourself on your own posts. Lol.
@thrawn
Here’s what Samlond said 18th August 2014 at Arbroath:
““the opportunity to protect our publicly owned, publicly run NHS forever from Westminster privatisation and cuts.””
If Westminster cuts the NHS budget for England and Wales, the Scottish block grant is cut, therefore there is less money in Scotland in total, therefore less for the NHS. That does NOT, however, say that Scotland would have to privatise ours.
Salmond did NOT claim in that statement that the Scottish NHS would be privatised if Scots voted NO in 2014.
Here’s what Torrance said:
“What about an update on the FM’s claim that the Scottish NHS would be privatised if Scots voted NO in 2014? Thanks.”
Torrance lied. And you can’t read or understand plain English.
Thrawn
Let’s not dance on the head of a pin. Do you respect the principle of human rights or do you support the British state?
link to un.org
@Thrawn says: 5 February, 2017 at 1:11 pm:
Oh! Dear! and Goodness me.
The erudite Mr Thrawn seems rather much inclined to attempt browbeating, poor DerekM. Implying that Mr Thrawn’s own English Language is so much more superior than poor DerekM’s pathetic Scottish slang versions of English.
He seems to believe, that by doing so, he is somehow a far more superior person with far more authority to tell poor DerekM what he should think and also do what his, (DerekM’s), masters instruct him to do.
I have only one thing to say in reply to Mr Thrawn.
Awa an bile yer bliddy heid, ya muckle bam.
@thrawn
And one other thing, your knowledge of Scottish politics is over 2 years out of date. Salmond is not the FM, Sturgeon is. So what Salmond said in 2014 is not only not what you’re trying vainly to claim it is, it’s totally irrelevant.
Mirror mirror on the wall…
You again Torrance? Piss off permanently this time.
[Mundell] Oh come on now mirror…
You too Fluffy. All this smoke… you ought to have advised me of the health warnings…
Stoker says:
5 February, 2017 at 12:50 pm
BBC Scotland Tells Lies wrote:
“He also constantly reminded us that “The Polls” show there is no appetite for IndyRef2.”
No, they wouldn’t, not if you poll the prats in Warminster.
Did you mean Westminster? Though, there are more than a few prats in Warminster and you put your no claims bonus at risk by merely exercising your right of way at mini-roundabouts!!
I overheard a few guys in a well known local pub a couple of weeks ago and their understanding of the UK construct is woeful. It’s not the first time during and since the Indyref that I have heard such sentiments, but there is a belief among some here that Scotland simply belongs to England. End of debate!!
@Sinky
Interesting that the Sunday Post publishes that story, and fully publishes Canacn’s demand that BT “come clean”.
PLain english…really…really? Your going to go there…sigh..OK
To come to the same understanding of the quote as you a listener/reader has to independently of the words used, have full knowldege and comprehension of all of the following:
1: Scottish NHS is reserved and therefore Westminster can’t privatise it
2: Westminster can theoretically privatise England and Wales (despite the fact none of the major parties have even come close to espousing that policy)
3: Privatisation in England + Wales could have an effect on Scottish NHS due to the complexities of the UK/Scottish Govt funding structures
Wow…it is almost as if Salmond tried to ensure the average voter heard the palpably false proposition that the Union equalled = NHS privatisation while leaving himself enough slither room deny it. But no…sorry…I cannot believe that the sainted Salmond would stoop to such deeply cynical tactics…he must have just made a mistake and therefore should do the honorable thing and apologise….
Thrawn seems to be determinedly BritNat thrawn?
Is Torrance a close pal of McTernan, they have a lot in common and both earn a living out of talking sh1te!
Gordoz – think I got the last two copies from Amazon £20 each, don’t worry I am trying to put them to good use.
Re Thrawn, again, and sincere apologies, but a wee bit of Discourse Analysis seems to indicate that the Thrawn is not who his/her handle seems: Perhaps a wee collective jointly trolling (others elsewhere, too) @double question mark?
Thrawn
a) It is quite clear from the article I quoted above that privatisation is a big political issue in England. Nothing to do with Scotland this is a straight forward battle in England. The Labour Party are accusing the Tories of this very thing and increasingly services are being hived off to a range of private health companies. There are more, particularly US companies, waiting in the wings to snap up opportunities.
b) There is no maybe about it. As the waters are muddied it will affect the funding calculations.
c) I don’t think there was any lack of clarity regarding what Alex said. He was talking about privatisation of the NHS in England and the impact that would have on Scotland. That is exactly what is happening. He was right. Torrance is wrong and will become ever more wrong with every passing contract let to private health care companies.
Torrance is of course a joke. He writes unauthorized biographies then goes in the huff when the subject of the biography says it’s crap. The bbc loves Torrance though, he’s always ready to give them the neccessary britnat propaganda.
@David Macgille-Mhuire
Sorry to disappoint…just one of us here…but I’ll take your paranoid accusations as a compliment…cheers
@Robert Peffers
I am so sorry…I wish I had been clearer…I am absolutely not trying to imply my use of English is better than DerekM’s. I am stating it quite clearly…it obviously is…probably because he is a foul mouthed moron and an “ugly, creepin, blastit wonner,
Detested, shunn’d by saunt an’ sinner”…hope that clears things up!!!
@ Derek M and many on here today
As somebody, somewhere once said (almost)
‘If our voices held no power
They wouldn’t try to silence us’
Doesn’t mean we can’t ignore them!
@Thrawn “plain English”
Yes Thrawn, here, let me help you.
“to protect our publicly owned, publicly run NHS forever from Westminster privatisation and cuts”
“to protect… ” what? Here you are “our publicly owned, publicly run NHS forever”. That’s what’s being protected.
And what is it being protected FROM?
“from Westminster privatisation and cuts”
Do you understand now, or would you like a primary school teacher to go through it again with you?
I think you ARE David Torrance!
@thrawn
Good grief, I just noticed this from you: “But no…sorry…I cannot believe that the sainted Salmond would stoop to such deeply cynical tactics…he must have just made a mistake and therefore should do the honorable thing and apologise….”
So you are talking about SALMOND, not sturgeon, and therefore are agreeing that Torrance is lying when he directed his tweet at STURGEON. So you have, yourself, just proven the whole point of the article!
You really shouldn’t be left out alone.
@liz rannoch
My kids were screaming blue murder this morning pretending to be Voltron…my request they tone it down a notch reflects more their potential annoyance to my neighbours than any fear of their message…
I feel like this could be one of those metaphor thingies…
Thrawn
Your failure to reply to my straight forward question, suggests you do not respect the principle of universal human rights. Are you happy to leave us with that impression?
@indyref2
I will make one last attempt…but your dunderheidedness is becoming exhausting.
The important question that automatically arises from the words in that quote is WHY does our NHS needs protected FROM Westminster. Your answer and the one wee Eck will slither to is indirect effects of privatisation in england and wales, changes to block grant etc etc. The most obvious answer however and what Salmond intends the vast majority of voters to hear is that: SCOTTISH NHS NEEDS PROTECTING FROM BEING DIRECTLY PRIVATISED AND CUT BY WESTMINSTER – ONLY INDEPENDENCE CAN STOP THAT…therefore Torrance was right to claim SNP claimed NO vote would result in privatisation because that is how the vast majority of people heard it.
As for the whole Salmond/Sturgeon nonsense…given that it was me who first posted the quote explicitly naming Salmond as source you can hardly claim I am not aware…however it is so fantastically pedantic that I have not bothered to address it. Technically yes I guess Torrance could have asked Salmond to apologise for his claims and not Sturgeon…although as the current leader of the independence movement and someone in the past who never at any point disavowed or repudiated the claim I am not sure that it makes the slightest bit of difference
Anyway…Im going now…take it as a victory if you wish but your stupidity and blind fanatacism has finally defeated me today…congratulations
“Just when I thought I was out they drag me back in!!!!”
@CameronB Brodie
Having a referendum on the self-determination of Scotland in 2014 I think..maybe just maybe…perhaps..satisfies the UN that our human rights in this regard are not being trampled on. That that referendum didn’t go the way you want it doesn’t change that, much as you might wish it so when sobbing into your lifesize nicola sturgeon pillow at night
Right definitely gone now…
@Thrawn
2: Westminster can theoretically privatise England and Wales (despite the fact none of the major parties have even come close to espousing that policy)
Are you unaware then of the 2012 Health and Social Care Act introduced by the Tory/Lib coalition so that NHS services could be contracted out to ‘any qualified provider’, including private companies.
In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts to provide clinical services on behalf of the NHS. The value of these contracts was over £3.5Bn.
From the Guardian: link to archive.is
“Far more NHS contracts going to private firms than ministers admit, figures show”
How about what one GP in England thinks from the Independent.
“Nobody’s told you, but the government’s Health and Social Care Act has legally abolished the NHS. On the surface, it appears that nothing has changed. You can still see your GP or go to hospital and receive care free at the point of delivery. But behind the scenes, something else is going on: the NHS is being privatised.”
link to archive.is
None of this really matters, what does matter is the Alex Salmond in saying that privatisation of the NHS in England would have a knock on effect in Scotland was categorically TRUE.
Whereas Torrence LIED when he stated in his tweet “What about an update on the FM’s claim that the Scottish NHS would be privatised if Scots voted No in 2014?”
No FM past or present made such a claim, Torrence’s link to try to back up his statement shows the TOTAL opposite of what he claimed to be the real FACT. Here is exactly what then FM Alex Salmond said.
“Commenting ahead of the speech, the First Minister was careful not to say that privatisation would follow in Scotland, where Holyrood is responsible for all decisions about the NHS.
But he said: “Under the Westminster system, cuts to spending in England automatically trigger cuts in Scotland.
“So if private money replaces public funding in England, our budget will also be slashed, no matter what we want or need.
“With independence we will have control of both our tax system and the budget for public services, so we can protect the NHS and other vital public services from Westminster privatisation.”
You Thrawn are an apologist for liars due to your blind hatred of the truth if it does not fit your anti SNP agenda.
Another unionist hoists the white flag after hoing his own ship.
“stupidity and blind fanatacism has finally defeated me today…”
The self awareness of a brick.
@Robert Peffers
Thanks Robert. Been away for a day or so and its a bit of a pain playing catch up with the various sites.
Thrawn
You can read this at your leasure as it requires no reply.
link to un.org
“Can be fully realized” means the British state is required to ALL IT CAN to assist Scotland to become independent. As such, the conduct of HMG during indy1, was in direct contervention with the spirit of international development law. The British state trampled all over the human rights of Scots. They intend to carry on doing so by dragging Scotland out of the EU, against the will of the Scottish electorate.
As sophists go your pretty crap. Now, fuck off or make a positive case for the Yoonion.
@Thepnr 3.56
Pretty much and well said.
In that order. 🙂
What do people not understand about 2014?
The 55% voted to remain part of a state that was a full member of the EU, and the benefits of that full membership formed a significant argument in the Better Together campaign.
Now the state which the 55% voted to remain a part of is soon to depart the EU and forego all the benefits of membership trumpeted by Better Together; against the express wishes of the 62% who voted to Remain within the EU.
If that isn’t a justifiable reason to ask the electorate to express their opinion as to remaining in either the UK or EU, because it’s one or the other, then I don’t know what is!
@Thrawn
I could explain it to you, but you’d be far better taking remedial English as that could help you improve your general level of comprehension and communications skills, and enable you to participate at a more equal level in this forum,
Very naughty piece of editing in that response by Torrance, and well caught-out there, Stu.
Evasion by careful omission.
Not so much alternative fact as alternative lacuna?
@Thrawn says: 5 February, 2017 at 2:32 pm:
PLain english…really…really? Your going to go there…sigh..OK
No! You idiot! We have just been there.
As to your other, very selective, ideas of what is, or was said. Let us just go a little bit further back. Shall we?
The very first thing to consider is what the Westminster Parliament actually is and also what the Westminster Parliament claims it is.
To the very best of my knowledge the parliament at Westminster is officially named, “The Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.
What do you claim it to be?
To the best of my Knowledge the actual building was purpose built and funded by the entire United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland’s taxpayers. This after the old Parliament of the united Kingdom & Northern Ireland burned to the Ground on 16 October 1834.
It is not, and never has legally housed the actual Parliament of either the country or the Kingdom of England.
Which Parliament of England ran from 3 December 1706 to 24 April 1707. It then sat and its last act was to wind itself up.
There has been no legal Parliament of England since 24 April 1707. What sat on 1 May 1707 was legally, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of Great Britain & Ireland.
This parliament’s title was changed in 1800/1 by what is wrongly termed, “A Treaty of Union”, but factually was not even a treaty. It could not be because it was actually an Act of the Parliament of, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland”.
It was simply a name change and the agreeing parties were both parts of the United Kingdom. The two sides in the civil war in Ireland. You cannot unite what is still united and never broken apart. It was a part of the UK at civil war with another part of the UK.
These two parts of Ireland remained parts of the UK until The Republic of Ireland was declared – not by the UK parliament but by the Republic of Ireland declaring itself a republic in
There simply is no, legal or otherwise, Parliament of England. It does not exist. Yet the SC created by Westminster has just ruled, illegally, that the Kingdom Scotland no longer exists yet Westminster has become the de facto parliament of the Kingdom of England but continues to call itself the UK parliament that has split itself in four and relegated the Kingdom of Scotland while using EVEL to ban everyone else from voting on English matter.
It is a Kangaroo Court, setting up a Kangaroo Parliament that set up the Kangaroo Court.
You Know it, we Know it and the EU know it.
The day of reckoning is near at hand.
Tick! Tick! Tuck! Bang!
Scotland will become the legacy EU member, England, not Britain, will exit the EU and be in line as the last state to join the USA but may have problems with Gibraltar, Ireland and Wales. Scots will be happy as they got what they wanted, England will be happy because they got what they wanted and Ireland will re-unite and be happy and the Yoons will all migrate to the new state of the USA and get treated like immigrants by both the native Americans and the USAsian established immigrants.
Curious that Thrawn didn’t tackle the “explosion of privatisation” claims by Owen Smith. I would have thought a Tory like Thrawn would have fallen over himself to call Labour liars too.
@H&S
Thrawn’s is quite a typical style from someone with a lot of words but no content, such as indeed David Torrance, where their attempts at intelligent conversation are reduced to such insightful comments as:
“exposed as a liar, hypocrite and fool…but please…take comfort from that fact that you are not alone on this website…”
“deranged word salad but thanks anyway…slow handclap”
“the sainted Salmond”
“paranoid accusations”
“foul mouthed moron and an “ugly, creepin, blastit wonner,
Detested, shunn’d by saunt an’ sinner””
“your dunderheidedness ”
whereas self-indulgent invalid attempts at aphorisms such as:
“Voltaire himself … Socrates, Demosthenes, Cicero, Lincoln, Mhairi Black”
“PLain english…really…really? Your going to go there…sigh..OK”
show a Torrance-like overindulgence in self-petting. So, a pretentious person, with nothing to be pretentious about, and nothing to add to the conversation.
Well done Robert. True and accurate. I like your last paragraph about the future.
Shinty-
nice one !!?
@Thrawn says: 5 February, 2017 at 3:00 pm:
“I am so sorry…I wish I had been clearer…I am absolutely not trying to imply my use of English is better than DerekM’s. “
Well! Thrawn, (and so you should be). I assume you know there are several definitions of the term.
However, there is little doubt you did indeed attempt to appear superior to DerekM. It is all there in your comments. It has long been the very wrong opinion of those of a Unionist bent that almost anything and everything Scottish, (or their preferred version, “Scotch”), is somehow, just by being Scottish, inferior.
So much so, that they attempted to wipe out all things Scottish and, in fact, they have just attempted to say Scotland was indeed, “Extinguished”, by the Treaty of Union.
Strange then that there are no legal facts to back the claim up. Personally I was Lochgellied in every class and every period of the school day because I very quickly decided that no Oxbridge twit would succeed in beating my native language out of me.
It infuriated them that i was very capable in English but defied them by deliberately using Scots, at least once, in every lesson.
Centuries of suppression and still there are Scots who will never be other than Scots and Scotland will be free.
It rather seems that this will coincide with England becoming just another part of a USA which, incidentally, is looking, daily, less like World leaders by, “The Trumpet”.
The closing praragraphs of The Health of Nations
‘We could meet the health needs of everyone without the need for the government itself to provide health services through the NHS, simply by requiring that all individuals have medical insurance cover for a range of services that are deemed to be the acceptable minimum standard of health care. Of course, those who wished to have a superior standard of service could take out a more extensive policy: there would be no objection to individuals insuring themselves for additional or more costly services, as long as the basic requirements were met.
Although people are obliged to have a minimum level of medical insurance cover, they can shop around between insurers and decide which provides the best value for their premium money. Because there is competition, they can decide which insurer’s particular package of services is most suited to their individual needs, instead of having to accept the standard service provided by the NHS.
In addition, they can spend more on their health care, if they judge it worthwhile, than is presently spent on their behalf by the government, so new resources will be brought into the health care system.
Each individual would receive from the state a health voucher, equivalent in value to the average per caput sum that is presently spent on providing health care. The voucher can be used towards the purchase of private health insurance or exchanged for treatment within the public sector health system.
The actual provision of health care services in such a system of universal private medical insurance would be undertaken by private sector doctors and hospitals, and the nationalized health sector in the shape of the National Health Service would lose its reason for existence.
Pirie M, Butler E. The Health of Nations. Adam Smith Institute 1988
Which essentially means the conversion of the NHS into a US-style healthcare system run by the insurance industry. Even with Obamacare (now essentially repealed) the health outcomes of millions of Americans are irrelevant to corporate shareholders- like these Amerrcan citizens;
‘More than one in five Americans were in families reporting problems paying medical bills in 2010… And, in 2010, many people in families with problems paying medical bills continued to experience severe financial consequences, with about two-thirds reporting problems paying for other necessities and a quarter considering bankruptcy’
Sommers, A. and Cunningham, P. J. Medical bill problems steady for U.S. families, 2007-2010. Track.Rep. (28), 1-5. 2011.
‘Problems paying medical bills have been reported to be associated with increased stress, bankruptcy, and forgone medical care’
Baughman, K. R., Burke, R. C., Hewit, M. S., Sudano, J. J., Meeker, J., and Hull, S. K. Associations between Difficulty Paying Medical Bills and Forgone Medical and Prescription Drug Care. Popul.Health Manag. 18(5), 358-366. 2015.
Is the NHS safe in the UK as a nationalised universal service?
Not according to the National Health Action Party
link to nhap.org
or Professor Allyson Pollok who is a leading expert on healthcare systems and a staunch supporter of the NHS
link to allysonpollock.com
Is the SNHS safe? Professor Pollok commented on this – presumably her assessment is quite accurate and she had this to say at the time if Indyref1;
Popular sovereignty and self-determination are the crucial route to upholding political principles. English governments have acquiesced to private interests. People in Scotland should uphold the principles of a public NHS when they vote in the referendum in September, and choose the way and means to defend our vital principles. At the present time, and in the absence of any reversal of neoliberal policies in England, the clearest way to defend and promote the principle of a public NHS is to vote for Scotland to have full powers and responsibilities of an independent country
link to allysonpollock.com
For now, SNHS is not it the same perilous state, Scottish government have made different political and legislative choices. However we should all worry about health care cover –especially in Scotland if we are not in absolute control of our economy-who will provide it and how if corporate America gets its claws into the NHS.
The question for England’s electorate is did they knowingly vote for this? If so then that is their democratic preference. Scotland did not.
So Torrance lied then, what’s new.
Torrance’s Information Tainted. T.I.T.
Westminster Tories have sold off all of the UK’s assets to their rich elitist sponsors.
Remember when companies like BT was owned by the people of the UK and employees had secure well paid jobs and good pensions? Well now its sold off cheap to the rich, they employ fewer people and offer insecure jobs with deteriorating pay and pensions. From first hand experience BT’s Openreach is a completely incompetent monopoly who make a fortune for their share holders.
British Rail, British Gas, Scottish Power, Royal Mail, National Engineering, BP, etc, etc.
The peoples infrastructure sold off cheap to rich Tories.
What is the last thing that the Tories can sell off cheap that starts with the letters NHS?
10% of the NHS in England has already been sold off.
There is no doubting it is the way they are heading with the other 90% of it.
Why else would the majority of Tory Spongers in the House of Lords have invested in Health, Medical, and Drug companies?
They know the ultimate Tory plan and await to fill their pockets with your life or death choices.
It will be 100 per cent privatised, the Quizzer Yoons just haven’t got round to it yet. It will be like everything they do though and that is to do it on the sly and hope nobody gets a whiff of it until its too late to do anything about it.
Thrawn.
My Scots speaking granny would have used that word as a serious insult. It would denote someone with whom discourse and reasonable discussion was pointless.
She would have considered it to mean someone who would cling to and promote their own views whatever the evidence available, and would make a point of being irritatingly oppositional specifically to try to get people who had better arguments to get angry and loose the rag, in an attempt to claim a false moral high ground.
A thrawn person does not enter into discourse and discussion in order to seek clarity and enlightenment, but to annoy, provoke and oppose, whatever the subject matter.
At the same time, this thrawn individual often has a very high opinion of their own intellectual ability, seeing others as playthings to be teased, irritated and provoked so that they can get a thrill out of getting a rise from them. this opinion is rarely justified, though thrawn people are often possessed of a level of low cunning.
i have seen this particular specimen around. It delights in prodding people into hostile reactions with lies, and half truths, and making trouble to disrupt reasonable discussion, all the time claiming to be the voice of reason and truth.
My granny was right, and it has named itself well. Don’t waste your time, energy and emotions on this person. It has its agenda, which you will not change. It seeks to undermine yours with lies, while claiming that it is you who will not listen to its invented “truths”.
React as you see fit. This will be my only comment on this **** (choose expletive)
@East Neuker
Your granny was a wise woman and taught you well it seems 🙂
Roflmao so funny.
I do not even have to post to troll you.