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Wings Over Scotland

To nobody’s amazement

Posted on June 18, 2017 by

(From yesterday’s Herald.)

And remember, folks – those 12 Tory gains in Scotland were the difference between Theresa May being Prime Minister and Jeremy Corbyn leading a progressive alliance in Downing Street. That’s where Scottish Labour are at now.

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228 to “To nobody’s amazement”

  1. Merkin Scot

    Dear Agony Aunt, I voted for the Tories because Kesia told me I would be strong and stable. Did I make a mistake?

  2. donald anderson

    This is news?

  3. David

    Not surprised, they are stupid people most of them, the older yins have more sense

  4. David Caledonia

    Miss Qod, kezia Dugtail, Queen of Drivel lol

  5. galamcennalath

    Blue, red, orange or purple…. Tories all.

    The term Tory refers to those who remain loyal to the British Crown.
    (America circa 1776)

  6. Giving Goose

    Every cheer for a Tory is a kick in the face for a disabled person, a pensioner and a homeless person.

    That is how nasty and inhumane the Labour party is.

    Complete animals, in my opinion.

  7. annie

    Not surprised, can still remember Margaret Curran jumping for joy when UKIP won a seat in last EU election.

  8. Ian McCubbin

    Stupid people with no visoon and a petty outlook.
    Long term hopefully they won’t be a part of Scof fish politics.

  9. fletch49er

    Kezia Dugdale has issues IMO. She seems to have some deep seated abhorrence for the SNP that I can only think is because of their rejection of her as an employee

  10. Alex Montrose

    They were cheering the demise of Alex Salmond, this is poor stuff.

  11. HandandShrimp

    I have said it before but Kezia does not stand for anything. Even her new found enthusiasm for Corbyn is fake. She and Murray will ditch Corbyn at the very first stumble from the Corbyn team.

    Hatred of the SNP and an almost fanatical Unionism is all that defines Kezia,Baillie, Kelly and others of that ilk.

  12. Capella

    For unionists, there is no difference between Tory, Labour and Lib Dem. Saving the UK is paramount.

    That’s why R Scotland today has reverted to being a mouthpiece of Labour. They can see the Tory Titanic going down. All hands on deck to rearrange the deckchairs around Jeremy Corbyn.

    Thankfully, we have our SNP lifeboat still afloat, waiting for the best moment to launch.

  13. JPJ2

    The good news is that Kezia should still be in place for the next Holyrood election on the basis that she led Labour to a wonderful advance at the GE.

    Everybody knows that was the Corbyn effect but Kezia will claim it as her own and lead SLAB to another stonking defeat

  14. JPJ2

    Alex Montrose

    NO They were cheering every Tory defeat of any SNP candidate which shows where their priorities lie.

    They were also so thick that the could not spot that they were cheering the defeat of a Corbyn led progressive alliance.

  15. Chick McGregor

    Cries of Tory! Tory! Tory! by the SLAB’s Kamikaze krew as they prepare themselves for that final flight into glorious oblivion to save the UK are possibly somewhat premature.

    Aside from the obvious danger, indeed on past performance, likelihood, of them missing the smaller, nimbler SNP craft and instead, smashing full tilt into HMS Brittania there remains the little matter of the indy leaning stance of the new cohort of voters lured back to their fold by Mr Corbyn.

    They may well find a distinct lack of volunteers for the mission, serious questions on its advisability and an insistence on having an ejector seat from that new contingent.

  16. Muscleguy

    The strange thing is why Anas Sarwar has not made a bid for the leadership on the back their poor showing, either last year after the Holyrood poll or now.

    Could it be, whisper it, that he has no actual support in the party?

  17. HandandShrimp

    Good point JPJ2, retaining Kezia, Willie and May is a heady mix of incompetence. I can see Davidson heading south at some point but whether there’ll work out for her I am less sure.

  18. TheWasp

    Every time I turn on TV or radio the ruthfuehrer is being deified by stupid people with no knowledge not Scottish politics.

  19. winifred mccartney

    We’ve known for a long time of labours hatred of all things snp – we have also known for a long time that labour in Scotland and in London until JC is much more interested in the ‘party’ than in the people they are supposed to represent. NS was right when she said JC would get more support from snp mp’s than from many labour mp’s just think of Ian Murray and co.

    Much of labours manifesto was already being done in Scotland but labour up here could not even acknowledge that. Labour in Scotland is just too angry about being usurped by the snp.

  20. Tinto Chiel

    “And remember, folks – those 12 Tory gains in Scotland were the difference between Theresa May being Prime Minister and Jeremy Corbyn leading a progressive alliance in Downing Street.”

    The definition of stupid.

    Remember Kezia telling folk to vote Tory where they were better placed to beat the SNP? Strangely, this point has not been dwelt on by MSM.

  21. Cath Ferguson

    My priority in this election was Brexit and anger to May’s attempts to crush the opposition on it. So it’s very useful to know a Labour party which doesn’t appear to know where it stands on Brexit, and certainly isn’t opposing it, were cheering along with the Tories that strong opposing voices like Salmond and Roberston have been ousted in favour of faceless Toy backbenchers. Thanks for that, Labour. My vote will be lost to you for a long time yet.

  22. TYRAN

    Dugdale’s team cheering wildly for the beaded May becoming PM.

  23. Bob Mack

    There is them, and there is us. It is now more of a binary choice than before.

  24. chris kilby


  25. Glamaig

    Slab must know themselves that they carry some of the responsibility for UK Labour not being in power. I hope Corbyn does too!

    At the end of the day it doesnt make much difference. Both Tory and Labour parties are willing to ‘take one for the team’ i.e. let the other win (temporarily) if it means saving the Union, and their power-sharing role in it.


    How do SNPers feel about the SNP Scottish Govt repeatedly refusing that housing associations in Scotland be subject to FOI legislation?

    We are getting assurances from the likes of Glasow Housing Association that the insulation and cladding used is not the same as Grenfell’s. The don’t detail what is used.

    Residents cannot insist to be told what GHA and other HA’s are doing, it’s top secret. Despite many millions of public money being pumped into these housing asscociations they are largely unaccountable. Because the SNP Scottish Govt prefer it that way.

    Bill Kidd SNP MSP was asked about this by his constituent, me. Years ago. I’m Still waiting for an answer Mr Kidd.

  27. Wullie

    They do hate something much more than the SNP. They hate themselves.

  28. Ken500

    Par for the course. Ignorant wasters on the take. Despicable. Responsible for crimes against humanity. Grief and poverty the world over. Most of them should be in jail.

    Alex Salmond is a world Statesman of international reputation. The rest are not fit to polish his boots. While the Unionist fill their boots on misery and murder. Alex Salmond is head and shoulders over any of them. So is Nicola wipes the floor with them every week. The pathetic comtemtipkes. The useless Unionist are an insult to the majority of people’s intelligence. A total embarrassment. .

    Alex Salmond has done more for NE/Scotland/world than anyone. He is a Scottish hero who had put Scotland on the world map of admiration. Alex Salmond did more for the NE and Scotland in five years than the useless Unionists did in over fifty. Alex Salmond brought more investment into the NE and Scotland in over five years. Than the Unionists did in over fifty years. Alex got all the necessary investment in projects started. The essential AWPR (40 years late), the airport expansion, the Bay wind turbines and the Trump golf Development putting Scotland on the international Map.

    The uselesss Unionist/Green blocked all development. Wasting £Billions if taxpayers money. He will also do so much more in the future. Thanks Alex and the SNP. You are wonderful, wonderful people who stand up against injustice. Bright and smart and caring. Against a monstrosity of Unionism of conceit, greed and arrogance. Standing up for Scotland. Forever. The terms of the Union agreement. Never honoured. Equality sweep aside. Under the Official Secrets Act. Dishonestly and criminality under Scots/UK/EU/International Law. The Unionists make the Law and break the Law.

    The Aberdeen City council is a complete and utter disgrace of self seeking Unionist/Green troughers. More interested in their remuneration. Than the development, best placement and use of public resources in the City. A non mandated public disgrace. Of dishonour and disrespect to the citizens. Totally ignoring their wishes. Mismanagement and ill informed corrupt deals. Most of them should be investigated and put in jail. They are not fit for public office. It is swept under the carpet by corrupt officials they appointment. Disobeying public procedures and open government.

    The Unionists (LibDem Malcolm Bruce) and the cohorts did nothing for the NE or Scotland for over fifty years. The main achievement retaining the over priced sleeper. Sleeping on the job for over thirty years lining their pockets. Useless. They couldn’t even provide a bus service. Traffic chaos. Aberdeen City/Shire a state of neglect. These emboldened knighted multimillionaires and the rest of the cohoots did nothing for the NE or Scotland for over fifty years. Since 1928 and before, thry hsve misused public money. Sat and watched as £Billions of Oil revenues went down south to be squandered. The NE and Scotland did not see one penny of investment. Used to build up London S/E. illegally kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. The Tory/Unionist destroyed the Oil sector with unfair illegal taxes. The Oil & Gas tax 40% since Jan 2016.

    Alex Salmond is loved, admired and respected in the NE, Scotland and the world by the majority. A world class total top Statesman. A hard act to follow. With great support mobbed by well wishers everywhere he goes. So is Nicola and Co. Some not nice and dim Tory/Unionists liars will reap what they sow, A major backlash will follow. The Scottish electoral system being manipulated by a cabel of absolute criminal liars. Breaking electoral ruled and Law with impunity. The electoral campaign receipts will be interesting. They will be scrutinised and any wrong doing and criminality had better be exposed and the appropriate action taken Not swept under the carpet by corrupt Unionists.The electoral system has been compromised by non mandated crooked Unionists.

    Voters and people in the NE are traumatised. There is shock, horror and disbelieve The majority are horrified at these events. Returning to the status quo of ignorance is not an option. Alex will be welcomed back in any capacity to hold the opposition to account. Some self seeking, greedy manipulation by Unionists and corruption at Westminster will not survive. The Unionist Liars.

    Thanks a Billion Alex. Haste ye back soon. A wee rest. Then the IndyRef2 takes off. With Alex and Co at the helm. It can not go wrong. Alex can be involved at the negotiations in the EU. Protecting Scotland’s interest. A great asset.. Against the Unionist Parties criminality. Alex Salmond a gold star in excellent. The majority in the NE are mourning and disbelief. The voters have been told lies again. They are already finding that out. Three days after they voted. Voters remorse.There will be even more anger and frustration. A backlash.

  29. Welsh Sion

    Why has DudfaIL not been “impeached” (or whatever SLAB are supposed to do to someone in her position) for encouraging Scots to vote for another Party bar her own?

    The Rev. had a video on this recently along with the highlighting of Party policy that this was not constitutional.

    Dudfail must be held accountable – and must go.

  30. Fred

    Hope the midnight oil is being burned at Glasgow City Chambers scrutinising the corruption of the past 40 Slab years!

  31. Robert Louis

    For their petty minded childish hatred of the SNP, I will never vote Labour again (and I used to) until the day I die.

    So petty minded, they cheer having a Tory Government elected, just because it means they get to laugh at the SNP.


  32. geeo


    Why do people talk about “the next scottish election” in those terms ?

    Unless the tories call a new GE before brexit is concluded, Scotland will be either free from the union or getting what we deserve for rejecting independence.

  33. stewartb

    From Colin Alexander @11.35am: “How do SNPers feel about the SNP Scottish Govt repeatedly refusing that housing associations in Scotland be subject to FOI legislation?:

    This sounds terrible! But is it so? Or could it be ‘fake news’ and misinformation? Surely not.

    But see the ‘alternative’ news at (published 25 April, 2017)

    “The Scottish Government has revealed that it will issue its formal response to the consultation regarding potential extension of Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 (FOISA) to Registered Social Landlords (RSLs) in the Autumn.

    Responding to a request from the local government and communities committee for an update and indicative timeline of the government’s plans, minister for parliamentary business, Joe Fitzpatrick MSP, said the Scottish Government will undertake further stakeholder engagement before issuing its formal response to the consultation.”

    (see also the Minister’s letter on the subject: )

    Who to believe? So easy nowadays to fact check.

  34. Effijy

    Labour made the McCrone Report top secret.

    Labour stole 6,000 square miles of Scottish Maritime waters

    Blair and Brown became Thatcher’s greatest success when they made new Labour the alternative Tory Party.

    Scottish Labour MP’s refused to vote against the next round of austerity cuts.

    Lamont claimed to have been chasing Ed Miliband for a full year to see if Labour were to come out against the Tory Attack on the disabled via the Bedroom Tax.

    Dugdale and Murray try to oust Corbyn as he is a Left of Centre Politician.

    SLab Leader Dugdale advises Scots in Key Areas to vote Tory

    Slab for Tory alliances in Local Authorities across Scotland.

    And they have the nerve to suggest that they are an alternative to the Tories! They are the Tories!

  35. Stoker

    It would appear that The Red Tories are now a branch office of a branch office, all the evidence is there for all to see.

    donald anderson wrote on 18 June, 2017 at 10:00 am:

    “This is news?”

    Yes, Donald, i’m afraid it is! Not to all of us in the pro-indy movement but to a very large number of the population who don’t give a rats erse about politics.

    The very same people who’ll automatically absorb, in passing, the deceitful BUM headlines screaming from shop shelves, and who will base their voting intentions on those headlines.

    We, throughout Scotland and beyond, need to stop taking things for granted and acting as if everyone knows what we know, they don’t! We need to expose these actions over and over again at every single opportunity.

    These branch offices must be exposed for what they truly are. Former Slabber areas should be routinely inundated with factual anti Slabber material, blue Tory areas with factual material relating to them and so on and so forth.

    In the interests of Scotland we have a duty to make sure all of Scotland are repeatedly alerted to the actions of London’s gophers at every single opportunity. Not everyone knows what we know.

    For example – Catholic communities should be made aware that The Red Tory office has played them for mugs for decades and then they encourage everyone to vote blue Tory who’s masters then go and strike up very shady deals with organisations (DUP) who wouldn’t lose an ounce of sleep if every Catholic died tomorrow.

    The extreme hard realities must be exposed at every single opportunity and we all must focus on getting those facts out and into our own communities. Even these actions of Red cheering Blue, backed by Amber, must be embedded into every cranial cavity possible.

    Three does indeed go into one – they’re all London’s gophers!

  36. Faltdubh

    Anne McGuire (ex LAB, Stirling MP) wrote something about enjoying staying up late to see Salmond lose his seat in a gloating way as well.

    Just when you start to feel sorry for Labour (third again) they keep you disliking them.

    I will never ever vote for Labour. I may vote for a SDLP type party in an independent Scotland ; but I cannot vote Labour. Whilst Corbyn is admirable for many reasons and he at least would give us a second referendum if in power, I’ll never vote for their Scottish branch.

    It’s galling too that Anas and Kez are painting up these 7 Lab seats in Scotland as some sort of achievement for Slab.

    Still, 10 days on the SNP need to do a through investigation in to why so many NE seats went blue and how the fúck Salmond lost his seat. I know a lad from Banff and he thinks if the election was held now then the likes of Whiteford, Eck and Angus would win back their seats. All fine and well saying that, but why didn’t folk vote? I know two people who didn’t vote on the day as well, who were enthusiastic to vote for the SNP in 2015.

    So what happened? We lost the soft u/the SNP are alright/tartan Tories who voted SNP in the NE to keep Lab out and some of our own supporters stayed at home – turnout down 5% mostly ours! The campaign was poor, disjointed and negative. And I’ll shhh now as the election is over ; but I really hope the SNP are looking in to this.

    Anyhoos, sit tight, folks! Tomorrow is the start of Brexit talks ; Tories are openly slagging May in the press and ready for a revault; the Queen’s Speech delayed ; and we haven’t even begun.

    Also, has no one in the Scots media been listening all this time? See there’s a big headline with Tommy Sheppard saying ‘we should self Indyref2 until Brexit is done’. This is EXACTLY what Nicola was saying and many in the SNP.

    Last thing before I go. Why are the Unionists so determined to turnout and also, for the SNP to put Indyref2 on the ‘shelf’. It’s because they are scared, they know most likely with a bad Brexit independence support not just in Scotland but in Northern Ireland (unification with Ireland) will probably go up.

    The Tories are under a huge amount of pressure. So sit back, relax, ponder, read, go for a walk and enjoy the summer.

    The autumn is going to be hugely interesting.

  37. jfngw

    @Colin Alexander

    I think this is because they are not publicly owned companies, FOI’s only relate to public sector organisations. It was the Labour/LibDem administration that created GHA in 2003. Once you hand over to private companies then you lose transparency since it is then classed as commercially sensitive information. If you don’t want it like this vote for parties that are committed to public ownership of social housing stock, if you can find any.

  38. jfngw


    The relentless media campaign is working for those that use the MSM exclusively. My sister even told me she was sick of Sturgeon going on about indyref2, plus she had taken a dislike to her.

    I’ve been around a while but I don’t think I can remember such a intense onslaught from the media.

  39. brian watters

    How long are we going to make a big deal about the Scottish Labour Party supporting the Torys against the SNP. It is a fact that they do , they do it regularly ,and they do it with a grin on their faces. Its not a secret , it shouldnt be such a surprise anymore and anyone shoked by this phenomena hasnt been paying attention much since before the 2014 refeendum.
    Can we now accept Labour are our enemy and forget all this progressive alliance bullshit, its not going to happen with any unionist party in Scotland . They are beyond all hope and all redemption. Lets just concentrate on fighting them now !

  40. Keith Hynd

    No change there then !!!!

    At the last EU parliament election I remember SLab so chuffed that the SNP didn’t win that other seat, they were wetting their pants with excitement.

    Sad to see but not surprised.

  41. Legerwood

    Faltdubh @ 12.20pm

    I saw Mr Sheppard’s article in the Sunday Herald about shelving iref2 until end of Brexit talks, which we all know will be in 18 months time at which point the terms agreed go to the 27 individual EU member parliaments for ratification.

    This is exactly what Ms Sturgeon said in her speech in March 2017. Once we know the terms then we call, or don’t call a referendum on Indy.

    But he was making out as if this was all his idea.

    He also seemed to be talking up Mr Corbyn’s Labour to such an extent that it made me wonder if he would be crossing the floor of the House to join Labour at some point in the not too distant future.

  42. Patrick

    Why don’t you people stop being pretendy socialists. It is painfully obvious that you are not.

  43. Proud Cybernat

    And when there’s a vote in WM, just watch as the SLabour MPs refuse to back the UK party because the SNP are in their giving them support. That is how resentful, bitter and small minded these SLabour idiots are.

    It’s a toss-up though whether the BBC disgust me more.

  44. Chick McGregor

    “He also seemed to be talking up Mr Corbyn’s Labour to such an extent that it made me wonder if he would be crossing the floor of the House to join Labour at some point in the not too distant future”

    That has crossed my mind too along with other contenders like Mairi Black.

  45. Chick McGregor

    The increasingly evident failure of the great neoliberal experiment is, I am afraid, in the process of driving its most ardent adherents insane. Rationality is not to be expected.

  46. Free Scotland

    Meanwhile, young labour voters in England, some having voted for the first time, are slowly learning that the thoroughly obnoxious tories were being helped over the line by labour’s duplicity in Scotland. Shame on Kezia Dugdale and Co.

  47. Macart

    This is why I’ll never vote for Labour in Scotland. They can’t put party to one side when it’s needed, when it’s necessary, but they will do so out of spite.

    Spite drives them. Hatred. Envy. Ignorance.

    The politics of the UK is in free fall. It’s imploding under the weight of its own venal, self serving practices. Labour in Scotland? Party when an opponent is undeservedly ousted from a much needed post by tactical voting they helped encourage and by those who are supposedly their ideological opposites.

    Pretty grim.

  48. Morgatron

    They can never be trusted to even make the tea. They are a total shower of shit and just as bad as their blue allies.

  49. schrodingers cat

    we ended up fighting an election on both indyref2 and brexit, people on the doors wanted to know about brexit. not indyref2, we moved forward with indyref2 because no one thought treeza would be so stupid to call an election, she is and she did.

    the electorate were told nothing about brexit and the bbc are still spinning this good deal bad deal pish

    but brexit negs will go ahead, very soon the term wto will feature on every newspaper and people will start asking what this means for them.

    the tory government wont last 5 years, but they want to delay the ge until after brexit.

    treeza will probably not now storm out in sept but will toe the eu agenda, eat humble pie, blame treeza, and call this a soft brexit.

    so we will have the opportunity to revisit this, 12-18 months at another ge,

    we also have our own nuclear option of dissolving holyrood at a time of our chosing in the next 4 years, we may not beable to win an outright snp majority but we can ensure a green/snp majority both with a mandate for indyref2.

    as much as the media try to spin the idea of disagreement between the snp, the plan was always to wait until we see what brexit is like before holding indyref2, nothing has changed.

    our job will be to highlight the damage that brexit will do to industry, trade, education(across the uk) and create the narrative that people do want indyref2 to stop it.

    it wasnt a good ge for us, many are still hurting, but i have never been more certain that we are looking at the end of this union, brexit will ensure that.

    as greg hemphill tweeted on the 9th june….. we have had star wars now the empire strikes back… we still have the one with the furry ewoks to come….

  50. HandandShrimp

    Hi Patrick

    No one is pretending to be socialist least of all Scottish Labour. In fact since about 1951, I don’t think we have had anything but a bit of tinkering at the edges. 13 years of Labour government from 97 to 2010 and not a single Thatcher anti-union piece of legislation repealed, the housing stock was sold off and places like Faslane privatised.

    Get your own house in order before you preach to others.The SNP are as centre left as just about any other main stream modern European party. Corbyn is to the left but a fair few of his policies the SNP have already implemented.That despite people like Lamont not so long ago claiming these self same policies were not left wing.

  51. gus1940

    Perusal of today’s on-line editions of Scotland’s wonderful unbiased MSM reveals that the nation’s most beloved foodbank nurse has been subjected to verbal abuse by a dastardly Indpendence supporter while dining in a posh Edinburgh restaurant.

    It appears that she was advised that she was ‘Tory Scum.

    Personally, I cannot make up my mind whether she is Tory Scum or Labour Scum.

    Alongside the report of this heinous act, as one would expect from our MSM, they reprise the whole history of Nurseygate all the way back to the TV Debate including Highlighting Joanna Cherry’s alleged smear whereby she repeated a rumour, subsequently proved to be wrong, alleging that Nursey was married to a Tory councillor.

    What I find hilarious is the fact that those throwing mud at Cherry seem to fail to see that in doing so they are actually telling us that it is a disgrace to be married to a Tory politician. They may say that but I couldn’t possibly comment.

    Perhaps they could be asked to clarify this matter.

  52. HandandShrimp

    Can’t say I see anything startling in Tommy’s piece. We all know that the fall out from Brexit will be the trigger. That may be 2018 or sooner but I suspect we could be looking at 2020 given the mess the Tories are in. With no GE in 2020 that year comes back into the mix.

    As Danni said on radio shortbread this morning, the volatility in current politics is such that the mood could change completely in two years and that there will be support for a second independence referendum.

    I think it is right to say this is our plan, park that thought and we will look at this again in two years. In the meantime we run the country, while May goes from one car crash to the next and it gives Ruth and Kezia nothing to talk about. Deprived of oxygen they will choke on their policies or lack of them. Also it is highly likely that the outbreak of peace in the Labour party will not last.

  53. Thepnr

    O/T Great article in the Irish Times about May and Brexit. The shit is about to hit the fan when Brexit gets underway.

    Here’s a taster.

    “It keeps getting worse for Theresa May. Her fateful decision to call the recent general election is now widely described as reckless a gamble as David Cameron’s idiotic Brexit referendum.

    Having run an astonishingly inept campaign she immediately demonstrated her utter lack of negotiating skills by declaring a deal with the Democratic Unionist Party before one had been agreed.

    This, of course, gave the DUP the strongest possible negotiating hand. Britain’s ‘walking dead’ Prime Minister, this master tactician, must now immediately begin formal Brexit talks.”

    How d’ye like them Apples Rock? Prime Minister not an idiot? LOL

  54. Robert Peffers

    @COLIN ALEXANDER says: 18 June, 2017 at 11:35 am:

    “How do SNPers feel about the SNP Scottish Govt repeatedly refusing that housing associations in Scotland be subject to FOI legislation?”

    No idea, Colin, and I haven’t got time to ask them individually what they think. Nor are all Wingers SNP supporters or members as you seem to imagine.

    Anyway, much depends upon how and to whom, a question is asked. Such aggressive attitudes, as you demonstrate here, may account for the question not being answered and it may be the proper person to have asked may have been the HA or the, (then), Glasgow council.

    In any case the required Scottish standards are quite some way more stringent than those applied in the other countries of this, so called, “United Kingdom” and that means the cladding will NOT be the same as used in the tragic London conflagration nor will it be flammable.

    A tragedy has occurred that the criminally removed high building standards of the English system has allowed to happen. I’m sure if you bothered to check out the higher Scottish standards you will find that such cladding is not permissible under Scottish Government regulations and furthermore it is compulsory under SG regulations that sprinkler systems are mandatory in Scotland as are proper fire doors, marked escape routes and proper fire hydrants on all floors.

    Perhaps, going by your aggressive attitude, the axe you are attempting to grind here has more to do with political animosity, unionism of business interests than safety concerns.

    There are very good reasons for certain facts not to be released under FOI laws and a main reason is commercial & business security. We cannot allow FOI requests to endanger commercial trade security.

    In the case of building regulations the act could be wrongly used when rival companies are bidding for contracts.

    All you need to know is what the standards are and that they preclude such tragic results as has happened under the English building standards legislation.

  55. Dan Huil

    Anything other than a hard brexit will see England’s right-wing nutters going even more nuts than they already are.

    Westminster will never let Scotland have a bespoke deal with the EU because it would be a massive step towards Scottish independence.

    As said before the EU is fast running out of patience.

    It’s going to be a hard brexit. There’s going to be another Scottish referendum. Scotland will regain its independence.

  56. Robert Peffers

    @Patrick says: 18 June, 2017 at 1:00 pm:

    “Why don’t you people stop being pretendy socialists. It is painfully obvious that you are not.”

    Just who is it you are aiming your request to stop being pretendy socialists at, Patrick?

    Please explain, for we mere mortals who are unable to read minds, who these, “You people”, you speak about are?

  57. Ken500

    Why was Alex not re elected? The difference was 500 of transferred votes. Brexit, Corbyn, Unionist lies, complacency and electioneering fatigue. Some of those who complain and blame the SNP should have come out and vote. Or done a but of research. Youngster’s ‘did not do their research’ voted for Corbyn (Brexit) but did not realise they would let the Tories in. How many times were they telt? They support Independence in the EU? and have most of what Corbyn was offering. Corbyn supports coming out of the EU. Young people support it. A majority in Scotland support EU membership 62% to 32%.

    HS2? Costing £Billions. Renationalisation of the railways. Will HS2 be cancelled. McDonnell supports HS2, Hinkley Point, Trident and Heathrow. All a total,waste of money. To suit the Trade Union leaders who are not elected by the public. Brexit economic downfall. Where does that fit in to the scenario?

    Some farmers and fishermen not doing a bit of research. Convinced of a false narrative of a Brexit paradise. That will not come true in any way shape or form. The promises made revoked 3 days after the vote. When the Euro went down customers could not afford to buy. These industry were struggling and had to be bailed out with public and EU Grant money.

    Good luck with Tory representation and stalemate. The Tories took the extra CAP payments intended for Scotland. ZGave it to farmers south of the border. Scotland. as part of the UK, receives the lowest CAP payment in the EU.Some of them will be bankrupted coming out of the EU. Next they will be demanding public money to survive. Many farmers/fisherman support the SNP and donate. They appreciate the efforts the SNP/representation and successful reorganisation of their industry could bring.

    Some fisherman have a spite against the SNP (Gov) because they were charged and fined for landing black fish under UK. Law. £Billions compromised. Some fisherman had been overfishing the seas for years. Throwing back dead fish. (Small species) The SNP MSP Richard Lochhead managed to get Scottish representation and agree a deal to increase net sizes. Enabling the quotas to be increased. Some fisher/farmers are extremely wealthy individuals with £Millions of assets. Enough is never enough for them. They create a separate narrative to reality and feed into it. Not all fisher/farmers are like that. Many are struggling and want to work to together with the SNP Gov to bring imprivements to their industry. Protect their industry, diversify and introduce better methods.

  58. Ken500

    @ Patrick

    ‘You people’ – Dugdale’s cronies?

  59. yesindyref2

    A long-standing poster in the Herald who used to be a Labour member, then rejoined after the Indy Ref against Indy, who supports Corbyn said he wouldn’t vote for Dugdale.

  60. Stoker

    Patrick wrote on 18 June, 2017 at 1:00 pm

    “Why don’t you people stop being pretendy socialists. It is painfully obvious that you are not.”

    Patrick, are you referring to the commenters here on WOS or the aforementioned Red Tory reprobates in the article above?

  61. yesindyref2

    @brian watters: “Can we now accept Labour are our enemy

    There are two Labours in Scotland, the hope is that the real Labour will get rid of the ones who love the Tories, and reclaim their party.

  62. Capella

    If anyone has absolutely nothing else to do for the rest of the afternoon – here is a link Nana posted earlier. Definitely off topic except for the sheer scale of treachery, thieving and mendacity.

    From Russia With Blood

  63. Tom Platt

    I don’t approve of the bad language used a few times amongst commentators here about this latest SLAB nonsense. To cheer about Tory wins which involve TM remaining as PM rather than JC is, of course, just self-harm on an incomprehensible scale. I don’t deny that.

    But we must surely continue to ask ourselves why so many in our nation, even non-SLAB supporters, are into self-harm in such a big way? Nose mutilation with rings, and facial lips suffering the same fate, are just the most visible and trivial examples of Scots attacking their own bodies. Suicide is a much more serious example.

    Any thinking person, politically aware, must occasionally be driven to despair at the incompetence of Westminster, the irrelevance of so much of their activity, particularly when the blue Tories are in power, and the extent to which so much of their activity works aginst the obvious interests of Scots.

    #ScotRef will provide another option for us to change that. Until we have a date to work towards let us continue to take care of each other as best we can. These self harming SLABbers are probably not even aware of the damage that they have done to the UK Labour cause, let alone the cause for Scottish progressive politicians.

    Let us continue, respectfully and patiently, to try to draw the errors of their thinking to their attention.

  64. cearc

    Welsh Sion,

    Are the Welsh Labourites aware of it?

    It might be worthwhile drawing it to their attention, both the campaigning and the coalitions in the councils.

    If you want a list of sourced examples as well as what Stu has written, just ask on a thread and I am sure wingers will supply.

    Complaints from outwith Scotland would be more difficult to ignore. I’m sure a lot of the Welsh would probably be quite annoyed to learn that SLAB are in bed with the tories

  65. Brian Powell


    We got rid of the 40 Blairite Lab MPs from Scotland, if Scotland is dim enough to hand it back to Labour it deserves all the shit coming from Westminster and SLAB.

  66. george wood

    Just when the furor of Indyref2 was quieting down, along come McCaskill and Shepherd to reignite it. Both of them have been rejected in one or another by the party and they are now taking their revenge.
    When NS made her statement over calling Indyref2, a hard Brexit was a certainty and we were assured that it would not be prolonged. In the light of that, her timetable for a referendum made sense.
    Now, a soft Brexit is back in the game and Brexit may take longer to happen. A revision to that timetable and the implications of a soft brexit on calling Indyref2 would not be a u-turn but just applying common sense. Shepherd has made it seem that NS doesn’t want to change anything.

  67. Proud Cybernat

    “SNP should park IndyRef2” says Tommy Shepherd, much to the delight apparently of Scotland’s colonial media who have been screaming for months now that the FM should take IndyRef2 “off the table” beause (if you believe them) no one apparently wants it.


    So Shepherd’s latest pronouncement is supposedly in agreement with the colonial media’s demands; a media who think parking IndyRef2 is the same as removing it from the table.

    It’s not.

    IndyRef2 is most certainly parked; it’s parked right on that bloody Brexit negotiating table with steering lock, wheel clamps and all. Right on the Brexit table where it belongs. And it won’t be unparked from that table until Scotland knows what Brexit deal has been made and exactly how it will impact the people of Scotland.

    And with IndyRef2 being a permanent feature parked right there on the Brexit negotiating table, life suddenly becomes a whole lot more difficult for WM in these already difficult negotiations. No wonder the colonial media were going apeshit at the FM to have it removed from the table, desperate to have Scotland’s resources bargained away without any awkward questions being raised by the EU side, like: “Fishing grounds? But if Scotland votes to leave the UK in the IndyRef2 which we can all see is still parked on the far end of the table there, how will you be able to deliver that to the EU in any deal?”

    Yes – very awkward.

    By calling a snap GE Mayhem thought she could neuter the SNP and IndyRef2; have it unparked from the Brexit table and dumped in the scrapyard.

    She failed – utterly.

    And hell slap it into her for so arrogantly and ignorantly dismissing the wishes and conciliatory requests of Scotland’s elected representatives. I really am beginning to believe there is such a thing as Karma afterall.

    Brexit game on.

  68. schrodingers cat

    i would caution about confusing what sheppard and mcaskill are actually saying and the narrative being created for them by the bbc and the msm.

    why are people taking what the msm say as gospel?

    havent people learnt anything from what stu is saying about the media?

  69. Ottomanboi

    At a deeper level the hatred of the SNP engages with a thorough distate for the idea that Scotland might be capable of national self-determination. When not peddling the ‘Tartan Tory’ nonsense, Scottish’ Labour effectively spins the line that as a people we are uniquely deficient in the ‘independence’ gene. The now distant Ms Lamont was the originator of that aperçu.
    Ruth Davidson when among the English Tory faithful is also prone to slip into cringe mode.
    With such as these we need more than just expressions of disgust.

  70. cearc


    I read that a couple of nights ago.

    Certainly not a good ad for the glamorous life of crime.

    Too many people don’t understand that ‘white collar crime’ is crime and is often underpinned by very nasty stuff.

  71. Capella

    @ cearc – it’s like a John le Carre novel. Not quite finished yet, time for another pot of tea I think.
    Puts you right off living in Surrey mansions with swimming pools.

  72. Dan Huil

    @Proud Cybernat 2:50pm

    Exactly right.

  73. Craig P

    I don’t get these latest reports on the BBC from Sheppard and MacAskill. Sheppard says that we may get a soft rather than hard Brexit so while independence stays on the table the timetable may have to be parked. But unless I am unable to understand basic English, the timetable was always to have i2 after Brexit negotiations have completed. So if the negotiations take longer, i2 will happen later. No change in policy. What’s to report?

    As for Mundell:

    “The people of Scotland sent Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP a very, very clear message in last week’s general election”

    Correct. They gave the SNP a majority. We are through the looking glass here with Tories claiming victory from 13 seats.

    Fluffy again: “Nicola Sturgeon should not be in denial about that. She should wake up, smell the coffee and be absolutely clear with the people of Scotland, as now members of her own party are indicating, and take that threat off the table.”

    What an absolute gift to the Conservatives that would be and what a sell-out of Scotland’s only bargaining chip. Scotland would be sold down the river in any Brexit negotiation without a threat of i2.

    Only the threat of indyref 2 can protect Scotland. The Conservatives certainly will not.

  74. bjsalba

    If anyone is interested in how the brexit negotiations will go, I suggest they read this.
    Brexit talks start on Monday and we have no idea what we’re doing

    It begins thusly:

    So they have confirmed it. Britain will start talks with the EU on Monday. We are now about to go into the most challenging negotiations since the Second World War with no government, no overall aim, no plan to achieve it, no functioning department to deliver it, no confidence at home or abroad with which to pass it, no trade expert capacity to negotiate it, and no time to manage it.

    This is beyond even the bleakest warnings of Remainers in the days after the vote. We must now face the very real possibility of an unmitigated disaster with very severe damage to our quality of life and a painful spectacle of humiliation on the international stage.

    I have seen signs that the MSM will spin it as EUBaaaad with GermanyBaaaad coming a close second.

    I shall be watching with interest.

  75. K1

    The moment someone states as an analogy for SLab that body piercing in the form of nose and lip rings are acts of ‘self harm’ and insinuates this as a particularly Scottish form of said ‘harm’, is the moment when anything else that person states is treated with the laughable derision it deserves. Let us continue to debate the issues by finding much better analogies to compare and contrast with, than people getting piercings for a start.

  76. Thepnr

    To be honest despite everything I’m in quite a cheery mood. Strange I know but what’s not to like?

    The Tories are in absolute turmoil and no doubt in my mind that the blessed Theresa will be shown the door in the very near future. So who’s next? Will it be Boris Hahaha, I hope so, the UK is already a laughing stock so making Boris PM is unlikely to worsen the situation reputation wise.

    Just imagine the reaction of the EU leaders to Boris as PM, that would be something to behold I’m sure.

    What’s next for “us” in Scotland? I know as much as you and that is nothing so can only guess, another General Election first, maybe Corbyn wins this time.

    Should I be worried?

    I don’t think so, Corbyn will need the support of the SNP even if he does win. That gives Scotland and our electorate a lot of power. OK maybe Indyref2 will be put on the back shelf for a good bit of time though I hope it’s not. It will however enable us to take a step closer to Independence by demanding more powers from Westminster.

    Top of the list should be powers over broadcasting, that should be a deal breaker. Win that, give it a couple of years of the truth being broadcast in the news.


  77. yesindyref2

    Broadcasting is fine to be devolved, but the most important thing would be the ability to hold a referendum any time, without reference to Westminster. The unionists hold that over our heads “May refused”. It would also make it a lot quicker from decision to hold in Holyrood, to the Ref itself.

  78. Thepnr

    Only fly in the ointment in my earlier post.

    Corbyn wins a majority by himself. That is a totally different scenario, still a bad Brexit result is still highly likely then we should still go for a second Independence referendum.

  79. Thepnr


    Agreed, just like NI already have the right to call a referendum at the time of it’s choosing.

    Anybody got a third demand for Nicola to make in the event of a potential Corbyn government needing SNP support to make a majority.

  80. yesindyref2

    Immigration. Go for full devolution of the power, accept halfway, perhaps subject to some quota. Then we can hold on to our people.

  81. Iain

    Did Kezia send her dad a father’s day card? Just wondering.

  82. Maria F

    “And remember, folks – those 12 Tory gains in Scotland were the difference between Theresa May being Prime Minister and Jeremy Corbyn leading a progressive alliance in Downing Street”

    Not just that Stu. In May, Labour ruthlessly expelled from the party three senior members in Surrey because they were supporting an NHS doctor together with LibDems and Greens in an attempt to unseat Jeremy Hunt.

    And yet, here in Scotland we have a ridiculous situation where the leader of the branch and other senior members of the party openly asked for a tory vote as a safer bet to unseat the SNP and of course nothing happens to them.

    I suppose, if one has to be positive, we could understand this as a sign that Labour and of course SLab may campaign for ‘union’ but they indeed accept that Scotland is too different politically and the tactics used in England do not work in Scotland anymore.

    If we look at this from a negative perspective, it will portray Labour as a party that would not hesitate to discriminate the actions of some members over others if it is for its own advantage: this would throw a big fat question over how principled is the general leader if allows this to happen.

    Of course the other alternative is to think that Labour doesn’t think the Scottish members should be hold to account for anything they do or say because at the end of the day, the Scottish electorate doesn’t really matter in the big picture.

  83. gus1940

    Re the tragic London fire can somebody explain the reasons for and advantgages, if any, of councils removing parts of their operations into ALEOs?

    If there are any, other than extra money for councillors appointed as directors and fat cat remuneration for the managers who in the main are usually the same managers who ran the operation when under the full direct control by the council, can we be told?

  84. Dan Huil

    England’s Chancellor, Hammond, said this today: “Because we are leaving the EU, we will be leaving the single market and the customs union”.

    If so then indyref2 must be called.

  85. Robert Peffers

    @yesindyref2 says: 18 June, 2017 at 2:31 pm:

    “There are two Labours in Scotland, the hope is that the real Labour will get rid of the ones who love the Tories, and reclaim their party.”

    Nah! Indiref2 there isn’t now a labour Party in Scotland.

    What claims to be the Scottish Labour Party is officially an, “Accountancy Unit of what calls itself the Labour Party but which is an unofficial a branch of the Conservative & Unionist Party with a hard core of Red Tory members and a few, (elected by the Rank & File members), of slightly left of centre leaders at internal war with the main body of the elected Red Tory MPs.

    In Scotland there are hardly any rank & file members left and the Scottish leadership are Red Tories paying only lip service to London Labour.

    There is also a handful of what was once the old guard, long ago sitting on the fence. Too frightened to jump down on the side of the London Labour Accountancy Unit and too bitter and twisted to jump down on the side that is a genuine left of centre democratic party called the SNP.

    I had hoped that such as Henry McLeish would jump down on the side of independence even if he couldn’t bring himself to actually join the SNP but I gave up on that hope some time ago.

    London Labour in Scotland is a Zombie Party – dead but still walking – and eating the brains of the remnants of their once great Rank & File membership.

  86. Brian Powell

    gus 1940

    The Council can’t borrow the money but these companies owned by the Council can, so I’m told.

  87. Robert Louis

    The SNP should not for one second ‘park’ the independence referendum. Indeed it is incumbent upon them to get the indy campaign going right now, since once the brexit talks are finished we need everything in place. Starting the campaign then, would be far too late.

    I used to have a high opinion of Tommy shepherd, but this is not the first time he has been making it public about what HE thinks is wrong. If I recall not long after getting elected he had complaints about how the SNP is run.

    Anyway, their is another reason for not parking indyref, and it is simply this, Westminster ONLY responds to Scotland when we point a metaphoric gun at Westminster, and that is the threat of independence. I do not doubt people like Tommy will be getting sweet talked in Westminster in order to persuade them to drop indyref. That is how Westminster corrupts.

    Even if their is a soft brexit (whatever that means) the SNP have ZERO mandate to pursue it or enable it. It is not what was in their scot gov manifesto. Additionally, the referendum vote did not ask ‘do you want a good brexit deal’, no, it asked do you want to leave the EU. 62% of Scots said NO, so if the SNP pursue a brexit deal, they will not only have betrayed those 62% of Scots, but will have gone against everything NS said the morning after the EU vote.

    Westminster will give scotland nothing. It is about time the SNP stopped behaving like a bunch of fearties, and got on with the referendum campaign. I am frankly sick of the ‘but if we wait for another month’ or ‘if we just wait to see if we can get a few more powers’ nonsense.

    It is like a proverbial procrastinating dieter- ‘if I just wait until tomorrow I can start my diet properly, or, better still, maybe if I wait until next week, it will be better, or hang on, you know it’s really stressful right now, what with exams, I tell you what, I will really,really,really start at the end of my exams, actually, you know what, I may as well make it at the start of next month- that will work better, or wait why don’t I do it at new year…etc…etc.. and so on.

    Utterly, utterly pathetic, and I am losing patience with the SNP. Start talking about independence, explain WHY the EU is important. Stop kowtowing to unionist demands, since as we all know the only reason they don’t want indyref is because they know it is extremely likely they will lose. Stand up for what you believe in, instead of being feart to even say INDEPENDENCE.

  88. Robert Louis

    Thepn at 4pm,

    quote “Anybody got a third demand for Nicola to make in the event of a potential Corbyn government needing SNP support to make a majority.”


  89. Col

    I just had a conversation with a friend and explained to him that with brexit and all its ramifications are we really so non aspirational that we will just go along with all the shit that’s coming our way for some outdated union that is only a union by name. Where’s our self respect? There’s none in the unionist camp that’s for sure. The failing state that is the UK is fast becoming an international joke. It’s corrupt from top to bottom. Let’s get out

  90. schrodingers cat

    re slab

    seeing the car crash by the new slab shadow SOS, She didnt know what the lab position on the SG being involved in brexit negs.

    Many laughed saying that she hadnt been told what to say and i think there is truth in that

    there cant be much communication between corbyn and dugdale if the new shadow sos doesnt know what the official position would surprise me to find out that slab is still at war with corbyn

    indeed, labours position on many things, including leaving the single market, is all over the place.

    corbyn still doesnt lead a unified opposition. once the euphoria dies down, this will be much clearer and dissenting voices will replace the snp bad mantra

  91. stu mac

    @Robert Louis says:
    18 June, 2017 at 12:04 pm

    Agreed, me too. They seem to think that of the SNP were destroyed voters would flock back to them. They don’t realise how their actions have put many like you (and me) from ever wanting to support them again. If there was no SNP I would vote Green, even Monster Raving Loony (saner than Tory/SLab/LD) rather than that lot again.

  92. gerry parker

    Robert Louis.
    It’s not up to the SNP to get the campaign up and running, it’s up to us.

  93. Robert Peffers

    @schrodingers cat says: 18 June, 2017 at 2:59 pm:

    “i would caution about confusing what sheppard and mcaskill are actually saying and the narrative being created for them by the bbc and the msm.”

    Ain’t that the truth, Cat.

    “why are people taking what the msm say as gospel?

    havent people learnt anything from what stu is saying about the media?”

    Nope! Many Wingers still haven’t realised what is so very apparent to many others.

    It is just what I’ve been trying to get across for some time now. Indy supporters and SNP members who seem to be unable to see what is before their eyes. The Rev Stu’s last few article and the Chris Cairn’s Cartoon all attempt to get the message across that the Westminster propaganda machine is setting absolutely crazy narratives that really should be getting laughed out of existence.

    How crazy can it get?

    Ruth and the Tories winning the election when the SNP has more seats than all the rest put together and Kezia having a great election when Labour make a few gains. Willie Rennie making great strides forward when the truth is the LibDems are struggling to exist.

    Yet we have Wingers on here sopping it all up like sponges and looking for second helpings.

    It is all alternative reality as cooked up by the Westminster Establishment spinners and liars yet some Wingers are reading it like the Gospel according to St Theresa.

  94. Arthur Martin

    The phrase “vote Labour, get Tory” has never been more appropriate than it is now in Scotland.
    Scottish Labour rejoicing in the Tories taking seats from the SNP is no surprise.
    They have abandoned their socialist values and would be just as well switching sides and putting on their blue rosettes.
    Why Scottish Labour supporters can’t make the distinction between Corbyn and his values and the shower of eejits masquerading as Labour politicians in Scotland beats me.
    Dugdale and others detest Corbyn, don’t they take that into account before they cast their votes.

    A better strategy for them would be to embrace Independence then start a new autonomous Scottish Labour Party from the ashes of the old one. They could build it from the ground up and if they don’t like things the way they are, propose a manifesto based on the members socialist principles, and challenge the SNP and whatever other parties spring up for the right to govern Scotland.

    Why blindly vote Labour as they always have when all they will do is put a Tory government into Westminster and be dictated to by them for decades. That makes no sense to me.

  95. Robert Louis

    Gerry parker,

    Seriously? Nobody is going to go out campaigning until we know the indyref is happening, that is just nonsense. Besides we need the SNP on our side actively talking of WHY we need independence, as Alex Salmond did in his entire period as First Minister.

    If indyref has nothing to do with the SNP, I don’t need to bother voting for them anymore, do I.

    It cannot happen without the SNP. Their is no leadership.

  96. Thepnr

    I’m disappointed that there are so many who are willing to accept defeat or blame SNP for all the difficulties faced by the YES movement of which I believe I’m a part and not a part of the SNP.

    Sure the SNP is the political vehicle but it is you and I who are the practical vehicle. We do what we can, that’s it, what more can you ask. I understand the frustration at the failure of those invited on the telly to present a coherent case and that is something that also winds me up.

    I’ll tell you this much though the SNP are not going to win Scotland it’ Independence. NO you are, it is you the people of Scotland that must win it for us by persuading others.

    Forget all about politics and political parties, Independence has absolutly nothing to do with that. For me at least it’s all about freedom of choice as to how I and my country are governed and right now I don’t have that.

    I’d rather hear less of the SNP’s failings and more of your own personal achievements. For a start let’s give up on the negativity, else we’re only duplicating the Daily Mail.

    Rally to the cause if you believe enough. Fuck this bending over.

  97. gus1940

    Today’s Sunday Herald front page confirms that it has rejoined its daily sister paper on the dark side as just another unionist lie sheet.

  98. Macart

    I think both Labour and the Tories have miscalculated and badly in their most recent collaboration. They were so arrogant, so dismissive, they didn’t even bother to hide their intent.

    They’ve crossed a political, social and ideological line they can’t ever erase. They made a willing choice. BOTH of them. In pursuit of a single policy and a mutual hatred of their opponents, they’ve undermined their own unique ideological identities, abandoned any sense of ethics or morality and the very pressing needs of the population.

    I don’t think its even registered what they’ve done to themselves as yet. I don’t think it’s registered what they’ve done to the Scottish electorate.

    TBF, I’m not sure they’re bothered so long as they damage opponents. Politics as it is practised… etc.

  99. gerry parker

    Robert Louis.
    Go and take a wee visit to the forward shop in Dunoon. There are small groups everywhere campaigning for independence. Rutherglen, Airdrie, all still active.

    “If indyref has nothing to do with the SNP, I don’t need to bother voting for them anymore, do I.”

    Who said it didn’t have anything to do with the SNP?

    Vote for who you like Louis, that Ruth Harrison has a cheeky wee smile so she has.

  100. Ghillie

    Kezia Dugdale is a stupid wee girl who has never developed maturity of thought.

  101. Shinty

    Robert Peffers @ 5.22pm
    It is all alternative reality as cooked up by the Westminster Establishment spinners and liars yet some Wingers are reading it like the Gospel according to St Theresa.

    Thank you Robert, maybe some folk here will start to ‘wise up’
    As I said on an earlier thread, far to much shit doing it’s rounds at the moment.
    We are supposed to be on a break, to recharge our batteries, not regurgitating Yoon propaganda.

  102. Col

    Are the unionist parties just brexit deniers because they don’t seem to aknowledge what could be the most disastrous thing to happen to Scotland since the second World War? What’s it to be Scotland? Democracy or regional submission?

  103. Proud Cybernat

    “It is all alternative reality as cooked up by the Westminster Establishment spinners and liars yet some Wingers are reading it like the Gospel according to St Theresa.”

    There may be a few Wingers here who appear to have that position – but are they true Wingers or just concern trolls? The vast majority of Wingers know how the colonial media operates in Scotland – pure, unadilderated propaganda pumped out 24/7 in a desperate bid to hold the line and save the Union.

    Their propaganda is not aimed at Wingers and others who know and understand what’s really going on. It’s aimed at the waverers thinking of moving across to YES. They use whatever scraps they can find to manufacture a narrative that the SNP lost the GE in Scotland and pump it out. Relentlessly. The desired conclusion, of course, is to plant in their minds that there is now little point in voting SNP for Indy beause they lost – they’re losers. That’s the false message the colonial media are attempting to implant into the minds of the waverers.

    If there are any Wingers here who are concerned about this then I suspect any concern they might have is purely about the effect the colonial media’s full-on propaganda will be having on the uninformed waverers – how many will actually be influenced by this propaganda onslaught? I’d say it will be pretty high. And that itself might be concerning except, however…

    …for the fact that YES haven’t even began campaigning yet. YES is keeping its powder dry. When the #scotref starting gun is fired, that is when the full force of the unstoppale energy of the YES2 campaign juggernaut will come bearing down on these propaganda peddlers. They might well have the airwaves but we will own the streets and the alleyways.

    And they will most certainly lose.

    And they know it. And it is why they are so afraid of a second democratic vote taking place. When they don’t want you to express your democratic rights, that is when you know you have defeated them.

  104. Ghillie

    KD also needs to take a long hard look at her morals in cheering on the Tories.

    And all the carnage her favs the Tories bring to the very people SHE is supposed to represent and protect.

    Kez has chosen hate over love.

    Keiza just does not think.

  105. Dan Huil

    Brexit brinattery starts tomorrow. Come on the EU! Get intae them!

  106. Glamaig

    Shinty says:
    18 June, 2017 at 5:58 pm
    Robert Peffers @ 5.22pm
    It is all alternative reality as cooked up by the Westminster

    Yes they are totally messing with our heads – mine included. The UK is under stress like never before. Keep your cool and remember the long view. Remember after 300 years of political and economic union with a powerful and controlling neighbour 10 times our size, we have not lost our sense of nationhood, in fact we are seeing a resurgence. That gives me hope. Every wave is higher than the last, and they are coming in more frequently.

  107. Gary45%

    SLab are sh*te, incompetent, useless, incapable of making any sensible judgements regarding governing any country/council.
    Their hatred for the SNP is simple, the SNP are none of the above.
    Slab milked the system for decades then were found wanting with the rise of the SNP.
    SLab will ALWAYS be a wasted vote.
    I could go stronger with my criticism, but its the Sabbath. I wont start on the Tories as I have work in the morning.

  108. Liz

    Has anyone read Kevin McKenna latest disgusting attack on the SNP?

    Calling them cowardly pygmies, destroying the indy movement.

    I have given him several benefits of the doubt but will never read that arsehole ever again

  109. Liz g

    Proud Cybernat @ 6.02
    Well said.

    Obviously propoganda works, otherwise they wouldn’t do it.
    But sometimes the message can just become background noise,with nothing to take notice of.
    If they manage to convince public (those who only pay attention to politics sometimes) that the Indy thing is really over,since the SNP “defeat” in the 2017 election.

    Then Yes will be the new fresh thing that’s happening on the streets,when we start campaigning.
    The new message we don’t need to stay and take this.
    We didn’t vote for it!

    It also begs the question …well what happened there then,I thought they weren’t having another vote?….

    This public perception thing works both ways,and since we are no the one’s lying,we aren’t going to get tripped up either.
    We always said Brexit was shit and we would have to go if England went ahead with it!
    That’s how we voted,and we are standing by our vote.

  110. Col

    The UK in the next two years will be weaker than it has ever been so long as we have been a part of it. This is the reason we need to regroup, despite a small setback. This is the reason that we have just witnessed the most concerted effort since indy ref 1 to kick the indy movement in the teeth.
    Many have pointed out that the media will go into overdrive the closer we get to indy so in a strange kind of way we should be pleased that this false narrative is being painted because in the end it doesn’t really matter if we are on the ground and campaigning for our future. Sit back, tomorrow is another monumental day in our future and when the time is right we fight back.
    They will shout, kick and scream. It will seem louder than we ever could but we will break them.

  111. heedtracker

    We just have to accept that even the concept of separation is an anathema to some Scots. There’s various reasons why different Scots say no way and its worth listening to them.

    Its also worth not listening to them too long, as they tend to start moaning about how crap various things are and you’re sitting there thinking, aye and what might a great solution to those problems?

    Or, what were Scots promised devo-max, federal UK wise, for voting NO, 2014?

    Or, why did Lab and Con all vote everything NO against every devo, except PAYE for Scots, having promised The Vow style, Scotland would get devo-max?

  112. ScottishPsyche

    The lure of Corbynism is strong and some have been sucked right in. Wibbly wobbly independence supporters who felt that it gave a route towards a socialist haven are disappointed and are taking out their impatient rage on the SNP for doing exactly what they have always done. Just what does Corbyn offer that the SNP with its limited powers has not? Oh yes, Trident and Brexit and the Union.

    I think the SNP should state they reserve the right to use their mandate to call a Referendum at a time of their choosing when the circumstances dictate. Say nothing else and then sit back and watch as the Brexit deal unfolds and offers nothing to Scotland.

  113. yesindyref2

    @Robert Peffers
    Yes, there’s not really a Scottish Labour Party, but 27% of voters looking for a Labour Hame, and finding, ummm, errr …

    Sad for them, not the politicians. Though I did like that guy who went into Westminster with his Parcelforce sweat shirt on to remind them all of his roots. That’s the Labour that used to be.

  114. Thepnr

    have many of you ever tried to put a friend “right” about Brexit and it’s likely events

    I have and it’s bloody difficult, so I have a Leave voter sitting in front of me. I say “May looks to be in real trouble and could be gone soon”

    He agrees, then I say that could mean we exit the EU with No deal, he doesn’t care. Wants out as soon as possible, believes there are three levels of government.

    I spent only one more minute on this as it was otherwise pointless. Finished with “I hope you don’t get what you wish for, time will tell though if you were right or not”.

  115. K1

    Yes, we need to be told to fuck off repeatedly before we fuck off completely. It actually seems to be that this is exactly what is needed. Let Brexit do it’s magic. 😉

  116. Robert Peffers

    @Glamaig says: 18 June, 2017 at 6:13 pm:

    ” … Remember after 300 years of political and economic union with a powerful and controlling neighbour 10 times our size, we have not lost our sense of nationhood, in fact we are seeing a resurgence. That gives me hope. Every wave is higher than the last, and they are coming in more frequently.”

    Well put but one wee correction – It isn’t 10 times our size and nothing like it. It has 10 times our population and that means we have room to spare for people. Like the Westminster imposed Bedroom tax we are being unfairly taxed indirectly for having spare room in Scotland.

    I used to feel like crying when I walked through some Highland Glen, or even some Sothern Upland areas, and saw all the signs of these Scottish places once having supported a larger population before the unionists replaced the rural human population of Scotland with sheep, deer and grouse.

    Make no mistake – the clearances, and they were not confined to the Highlands were a deliberate action by Westminster to weaken Scotland. The Highlands and Southern Uplands of Scotland are a man made wilderness. It doesn’t have to remain that way though. What bloody use is nice scenery if there are no people to enjoy it and live in it?

  117. Albamac

    A wee snippet from something I wrote many years ago.

    “I can’t understand why any Scot would offer allegiance to a political party that, for the preservation of its power in another country, would conduct a campaign of malice and menace against its own”.

  118. john young

    Are the SNP going to sit idly by and allow this,will they not slap the labourites about the chops with this in parliament or will they sit back and give ground again,don,t we have anyone with the gravitas to challenge these bastards at every turn,get in their faces for fcuk sake.

  119. galamcennalath

    Dan Huil says:

    Brexit brinattery starts tomorrow. Come on the EU! Get intae them!

    Exactly how I feel. Them and us, and the EU are part of the us!

    I just hope the EU is supportive of Scotland.

  120. Capella

    @ Liz – just read the McKenna article now. As you say, it’s an attack on the SNP which goes way beyond constructive criticism.
    Kevin McKenna is a Labour man and he probably sees in Jeremy Corbyn the saviour of the Labour Party. Labour have to cling to the hope of the Tory government falling and Labour being offered the opportunity to govern. But they don’t have the numbers. SLab hate Corbyn almost as much as they hate the SNP.

    I’ve archived the link. It’s as well to know how far these fence sitting, bet hedgers can fall.

  121. ScottishPsyche

    The SNP have been proactive, anticipating the problems of Brexit and have tried, sensibly, to give an alternative set of options including the option of an escape route. This has been interpreted and spun as looking for any excuse to have another referendum and not getting on with the day job.

    Do we wait until our economy is further destroyed by a Brexit deal cobbled together using our resources? What exactly would Corbyn do differently? The shortsightedness of Slab et al is stultifying.

    If another referendum is not warranted under these unprecedented circumstances, then when?

  122. heedtracker

    SLab hate Corbyn almost as much as they hate the SNP.

    We need to avoid getting sucked in to the Corbyn the great saviour of the UK lefties bull. Because JC’s is not particularly rad. He’s been a radical but as he’s reached the top of the greasy Lab pole, its all gone to rat shit.


    Now a Lady, but JC was a ferocious scrap the Lords dude and one of the first things he did was make Chakrabarti a Lady.

    JC has been a CND big shot for decades, Vice Pres of CND, as soon as JC gets near real power, Trident 2’s a go.

    You can do all this day, with all kinds of politicos, but at the very least there sure as shit ain’t no SNP Lords a troughin.

  123. Glamaig

    Robert Peffers says:
    18 June, 2017 at 7:01 pm
    ‘It doesn’t have to remain that way though. What bloody use is nice scenery if there are no people to enjoy it and live in it?’

    Have a wee swatch at this, the changes in the Highlands and Islands in our own lifetimes are breathtaking

  124. manandboy

    It is unlikely that a Union in robust health, with so very many Unionist adherents in Scotland, and with the BBC and most of the mainstream media under Unionist ownership and control, would offer Scotland the best chance of Independence.

    Thats the good news. Never has the British Establishment known such turmoil as it does now. The continued demise of the Westminster Establishment would appear to offer the best route to Scotland’s Independence. It seems only sensible therefore to keep a close watch on the chaos which is English politics right now, and to note carefully the direction of travel which is currently heading further downwards.

    Which brings us to the question of when would be the best time to make a break for freedom. In the words of one of history’s most successful freedom fighters, the best time is when you’re pursuing slavemaster is being overwhelmed by events. That isn’t word for word, but it is the gist of what Moses said.

    Right now, this Conservative government is being overwhelmed by events. It’s probably time to watch and wait.

    In the meantime, Theresa May is being swamped by the consequences of a series of bad judgements by herself, her Government and Tory local Councils. Fast forward Grenfell Tower. So many needless and horrific deaths, due to corruption, greed and pure self interest. And it’s not over.

    Theresa May and her PR advisors will be desperate to bring an end to what has been a disaster for the Tory Government. That probably means the demolition of Grenfell Tower, possibly on grounds of public safety (fake) – another bad judgement. Withholding the numbers of fatalities makes demolition possible sooner. Deeper and deeper, overwhelmed by events.

    Watch and wait. Not quite yet the returning waters of the Red Sea, but it’ll do for the moment.

  125. Glamaig

    vote Corbyn to renew Trident, to keep the Lords, leave Single Market, and to get some SNP policies that we have had for years… what’s the point for us?

    In an English context it sounds relatively exciting – shows how far behind us they are, and perhaps, the influence the SNP has had. So keep voting SNP!

  126. Robert Peffers

    @john young says: 18 June, 2017 at 7:03 pm:

    “Are the SNP going to sit idly by and allow this,will they not slap the labourites about the chops with this in parliament or will they sit back and give ground again,don,t we have anyone with the gravitas to challenge these bastards at every turn,get in their faces for fcuk sake.”

    Why don’t you just shut up and go pay attention to the real facts, John? You are obviously seriously ill informed if you imagine for a moment that the SNP have NOT been doing just that for what seems an eternity.

    When Holyrood is sitting you need to make the effort to go to the Holyrood TV website and there you will see and hear the SNP fighting dourly for Scotland at every opportunity :-

    Then, between times, when Westminster is sitting, you can visit the Westminster live webpages to see and hear the SNP MPs fighting just as hard for Scottish voters. You can watch it here :-

    It is obvious, by your own admission, that you are one of those who are susceptible to the Westminster Establishment’s brainwashing propaganda. You probably thus believe the, “Ruth Davidson Party- not the Tory Party”, won the General Election and the , “Scottish Labour Party”, came second with the LibDems in the third place with The SNP suffering a disastrous, and humiliating, defeat.

    Just for the record, (not that lying Daily one). The results were as follows:-

    SNP:- 35 seats:
    Ruth Davidson, (not the Tory Party):- 13 Seats:
    London Labour in Scotland:- 7 seats:
    Some other Party I can’t remember their name:- 4 seats:

    Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but is not 35 a larger number of seats at Westminster than 13+7+4=24?

    So there you go, John – you can believe the narrative as propagated by the Westminster Establishment Propagandists and demand that the SNP ups it game after such a humiliating defeat and claim, as you have just done, that it is all the fault of the SNP for not doing the job we elected them to do or you can go watch the actual true proceedings in the Holyrood Chamber and the Holyrood committee rooms and the same sort of thing as the SNP fights so well at Westminster.

    The choice, of course, is yours to make. However, do not think for a moment you will be allowed to get away with commenting utter bollox here on Wings and NOT be called out for spreading Westminster Establishment propaganda.

    We get much more than our fair share of that rectally sphinctered bovine waste matter from the Scottish MSM and Westminster controlled broadcasters as it is.

  127. Capella

    @ heedtracker – agreed. I listened to R Scotland this morning and noted their lengthy PPB for Labour in the guise of the longform interview with a former Labour councillor and Lord Provost – Liz Cameron. She managed to squeeze in the claim that pupil attainment had risen under Labour, not only in Glasgow but in all the surrounding area.
    Ah the Glorious days of Glasgow’s Miles Better with Pat Lally and Alex Mosson!

    So now that the GE is passed they are parking the Tories to concentrate on Labour. Jeremy Corbyn is 64 short of a majority. They are still in campaign mode.

    Kevin is just doing his bit to create the impression that the SNP has failed with education, along with Health, Police and er… well taxes?

  128. Graham Walker

    The average person is pretty stupid – that means that 50% of the population are even more stupid.

    That is all you need to know!

  129. Capella

    Correction. Not Alex Mosson – Michael Kelly.

  130. Tinto Chiel

    “Vote Corbyn to renew Trident, to keep the Lords, leave Single Market, and to get some SNP policies that we have had for years… what’s the point for us?”

    You’ve summed that up very well, Glamaig. Yet some Scots will still vote for this feeble, vacillating metropolitan.

    Kevin McKenna? A shameless hireling who has never once given the SNP credit for any of the progressive policies once espoused, but never enacted, by BLiS______d.

    Anyone here still think the Sunday Herald supports independence?

    And Robert Peffers’ sad Scottish acres are a perpetual reminder of the consequences of this damnable Union.

    I could weep for the lost potential of all those who have been forced to leave our shores.

    It’s called the Union Dividend.

    Wake up, Scotland, ffs.

  131. Robert Louis

    Gerry Parker at 552pm

    Maybe the shop is around in Dunoon, and I have visited the one in Fort William, but the YES space in Edinburgh has just closed this week, and the yes cafe in Liberton closed some time ago. Gradually, bit by bit, ordinary folks give up on the idea, they see no progress, and yes, I know the polls have not dropped, but mark my words, they surely will.

    Westminster is exceptionally weak right now. They would not be able to fight on both the EU and the Scottish front. You will never get a better time for indyref. That is why the unionists are so obsessed with the indyref getting dropped, since they KNOW they cannot fight Scottish independence whilst also fighting the EU, arrange brexit and running the relevant propaganda and spin.

    Westminster, once brexit talks are finished, will sit back and say, right then Scotland have your silly wee referendum, since they will know they will at that point have the full power of the London civil service available again.

    We are in a fight against London rule. They showed that last time around, with their endless lies, and broken promise of more powers. We should strike when they are weak.

    I’ll ignore your childish comment about Ruth Davidson.


    @stewartb 18 June, 2017 at 12:12 pm

    Thank you for the response. This is not a new issue as I’ve pointed out. I’ve experienced it myself how GHA would only give the information they wanted to.

    So, trust me on this issue. As others point out. GHA was created over 10 years ago, by Labour with Jack McConnell promising that GHA would be a temporary holding company to transfer the local authority housing stock to be run for the benefit of local communities.

    So, Labour played their part in creating this situation in the first place. So, I’m not point scoring for Labour against the SNP.

    Under the SNP, GHA has spread from Glasgow to take control of other housing associations across Scotland. It is a business empire now called Wheatley Group with an emperor’s salary for the GHA / Wheatley Group boss.

    They receive millions of public money.

    Yet,if they don’t comply with a FOI request properly there is nothing anyone can do.

    The SNP did makes several changes to the board which did improve things. However, the lack of scrutiny is unacceptable.

    Hopefully, the Scottish Govt will finally listen to tenants’ and factored homeowners’ pleas for FOI to apply to housing associations.

    So, we’ll see what the ScotGovt say in the autumn. Hopefully, finally, these publically funded socially renting landlords ( and factors of homeowners of ex-council housing stock ) will be subjected to the same public openness and accountability that public bodies are required to adhere to.

    People have been asking for FOI to apply to housing associations for approx 10 years. That’s a fact, not anti-SNP propaganda.

    I hope wingers will support this issue. Any support would be appreciated.

  133. ailsa craig

    What a total hypocrite Ms Dugdale is as well as the owner of a very small number of brain cells. Just after the exit poll was announced in the 2015 Election, and TankGirl was just about to burst with glee over the Tory figures, our Kezia bounced in with, and I quote,”There will be lots of people sitting heavy in their seats thinking that might mean 5 more years of David Cameron; 5 more years of austerity. Scotland can’t afford another 5 years of the Tories”.

    Now of course 7 years!

    Is the woman mad? Why does she hate the SNP so much that she would make a comment like that [and you can check it] and would accept that scenario to actually fighting the cause of it. She is a disgrace to the voters in Scotland [as are the other two clowns.]

  134. tatu3

    Surely it would be best for an independence campaign if there was no or little interference from Westminster? So would it not be best to have the campaigning start now, whilst Westminster are busy trying to do a deal with brexit? Why do we have to wait for them to have the time or say so? Why do we need their input? The folks living in other parts of the UK don’t get a vote, so why do we need to hear their voices? This is a genuine question …

  135. Glamaig

    In my view it would be mad to trigger Indyref2 until we know exactly the Brexit terms – i.e exactly what the SNP are saying.

    If we have it or even start campaigning before then, we lay ourselves open to another vow and general obfuscation – e.g. a promise of staying in the single market, or even a promise of staying in the customs union might do it. We would then have played our ace to soon and blown it. We need them to commit to the terms with the EU first – then theres no way back for them, and they have indyref2 hanging over them all that time – the elephant in the negotiating room.

  136. stewartb

    Robert Peffers @ 7:47 pm in response to john young @ 7:03 pm:

    IMHO a wee bit harsh, even tho’ I do agree with you that taking time to access the information available via both Holyrood and Westminster parliamentary debates gives a very different (and typically very positive) view of SNP performance and achievements than one gets from the BBC and corporate media.

    But not enough people with a vote in Scotland do, or every will, watch this parliamentary coverage and the media will rarely present the positives – BBC Scotland’s coverage of Mhairi Black’s maiden speech in Westminster is but one, but very memorable, example.

    So pragmatically, what can the SNP do to mitigate further the prevailing media climate? A more ‘aggressive’ rebuttal operation; a much improved social media presence; a regular, high profile (say quarterly?) ‘state of the nation’ press conference with various SG ministers present (and another one with SNP MPs and MEPs present to report on what they are doing for Scotland) that the media cannot just ignore?

    I am no media or campaigning expert (as you may well have noticed!), but surely just more of the same in terms of SNP media/communications activities won’t be enough. Time for a re-boot? This does seem to be an important and time critical issue. Any insights?

  137. Liz g

    Colin Alexander @ 8.20
    Em is FOI legislation no reserved tae Westminster Colin?


    @ Robert Louis 8.15pm

    I agree this is the time pressure should be increased on the UK Govt.

    NS has already been pressing for the ScotGovt to be included in talks. I’ve already discussed how this pressure can be increased.

    So, that either the UKGovt will be forced to accept Scotland’s democratic will that Scotland voted to stay in the Single Market and accommodate that or they will be shown to be anti-Scottish democracy.

    To be fair to the SNP, they are kinda doing what I’ve been suggesting, despite what some of my critics say.

    I’m just suggesting refinements to the strategy.

    If all democratic approaches are rebuffed by the UK Govt then it becomes an anti-Scottish democracy isue, not just an EU / SM issue.

  139. Robbo

    Can I ask how many posters that come on this site actually vote SNP at GE and LE ?

    Because some of you are confusing the feck out of me.So if your not voting SNP or Greens then who are you voting for?????

  140. John Edgar

    This is not new. During the Thatcher years when Labour were the largest party in Scotland, at election times Helen Liddell used to crow that the defeat of Donald Stewart on the Western Isles was great, yet the Tories continued to reign and rule!
    They did not see the irony!
    Yoonery will collapse when Brexit, amongst other tensions in the UK , leads to chaos.

  141. Calum McKay

    Red and blue tories, no difference, different sides of the same coin.

    That some in Scottish labour would rather see a tory win over SNP and that the result of that win and others would prevent labour from gaining power in partnership with the SNP, disgusts me, but I am not suprised.

    I have respect for Corbyn, but none for his north british branch.

  142. Cherry

    @ Robbo
    I think your confusion is about members/voters.
    I’m an SNP member and voter…however not all Wingers are SNP members but vote for them as their route to independence.

  143. Chick McGregor

    @John Young
    “Are the SNP going to sit idly by ”

    The SNP do frequently embarrass the Tory Government in Westminster in parliament and SLAB, Tory and LibDems in Holyrood at PMQs and FMQs every week. When they do, it simply does not get reported or is twisted into an ‘SNP aggresive’ story.

    Just this week Callum McCaig MP, in a week where Theresa May has had to face many cheap jibes at recent events, managed to cause her much more embarrassment by simply stating three facts and asking a simple question.

    He pointed out how badly the pound was doing, how bad the trade balance for the UK was and that the national debt was approaching £1.7 trillion and asked if the UK could afford to leave the EU.

    I was heartened especially by him pointing out that the trade deficit was £133 billion because that is a major, major scandal which hardly ever gets aired in the UK.

    The UK has the worst trade deficit, pro rata, in the developed World. It is absolutely horrendous.

    By the way, Scottish trade balance with overseas countries, which is an easyish thing to estimate from ports and airports is about break even.

    The much more difficult trade deficit to calculate (and easiest to fiddle for a multitude of reasons), is the internal Scotland to England one for which it is claimed Scotland is in about a 5 billion deficit with England.

    Therefore, Scotland becomes the only country in the developed World England has a trade surplus with.

    But even if anyone is daft enough to believe that, it still puts Scotland’s trade deficit in a much better position than England’s in percentage GDP terms.

  144. Dave McEwan Hill

    I am surprised a the somewhat over the top reaction Kevin McKenna’s piece.Sometimes the hardest criticism to take is the one that hits the most good points

  145. ben madigan

    @ tatu 3 who said “So would it not be best to have the campaigning start now, whilst Westminster are busy trying to do a deal with brexit?”

    not my place to suggest any Indyref2 timing but I would like to remind you all of what the irish Liberator, Dan o’Connell used to say back in the early 19th century – “England’s difficulty is ireland’s opportunity”

    @ Stewart b who asked ” surely just more of the same in terms of SNP media/communications activities won’t be enough. Any insights?”

    Another example from ireland

    Sinn Fein produces almost daily a very short, sub-titled video (usually 2-3 mins max) with one or more of its elected politicians saying what she/he/they are doing and how they are tackling various issues-

    e.g. Today on behalf of SF I brought up the issue of X in the chamber. here are the highlights of my speech/the debate. SF will continue fighting for your rights and justice on this issue”

    One day it might be an MEP, another someone in Dail Eireann, the irish parliament, another an MLA from Stormont (NI) or a councillor somewhere in Ireland north or south. It might even be a SF Westminster MP even though SF doesn’t take its seats at Westminster.

    I don’t know how the vids are produced, what they might cost, or whether they are shared beyond party members and supporters but they do keep those key people at least clearly informed about what the party is up to, provide a way in to exploring the issue in depth in meetings if anyone wants to, facilitate discussions among party members and supporters.

    Maybe the SNP could glean something from this approach?

  146. Capella

    Dave McEwan Hill 9:02

    Sometimes the hardest criticism to take is the one that hits the most good points.

    OK – so what are the good points?

  147. heedtracker

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    18 June, 2017 at 9:02 pm
    I am surprised a the somewhat over the top reaction Kevin McKenna’s piece.Sometimes the hardest criticism to take is the one that hits the most good points

    Which are? without going btl Graun.

    Lady JK Rowling and Lord Billy Connolly, can kiss my hairy Scots airse.

    Connolly made the English laugh at poverty in Glasgow, when the city was near collapse. He’s a rich man’s Rab C Nesbit, another ScotBrit horror that could only be created by the reprobates of BBC Scotland. When Connolly gets on his knees to get whatever it is Brenda does to them, its a fitting position for the clown.

    OK Dave?

  148. schrodingers cat


    Welcome to the story of Scotland. We didn’t vote Tory but we’ve got them anyway. Yet our hopes are still alive. Our dreams are still being dreamt. Our day will come, and it will come sooner than you might think. There’s no point in a Union that doesn’t serve the needs of one of the countries that form that union. Every cut that the Tories make, every life that the Tories shatter, brings the realisation closer that there is a better way. Tory Britain is the end of Britain, the pain we feel is the birth pains of a better Scotland. It’s coming yet. Unstoppable. Once you’ve learned how to hope it’s a lesson you can never unlearn. It’s within us. Disappointments have a beginning and an end, but hope is infinite. There is light and hope still, and there’s nothing Tory Britain can do to quench it. There’s a beacon of hope on the hill, a beacon of independence, and we’re heading towards it with our dignity intact. We are the tide. We cannot be stopped.

    Welcome to Tory Britain. You’ll have had your United Kingdom.

  149. Balaaargh

    Billy Connolly said he would rather be Bosnian than Scottish. For someone who built his career on his Scottishness before heading to Hollywood, I couldn’t care what awards he got.

  150. Artyhetty


    Spot on Heed, too freaking right. Making a living from the unionists keeping Scotland poor, begging bowl in hand. Utter disgrace. These people have done nothing for Scotland, nothing positive at all, but rewarded for services to the UKok state. They can quite frankly gtf.

  151. Paula Rose

    How’s the beer and chill out going?

  152. Capella

    Kevin McKenna says:
    This on the same day it was announced a wealthy funeral director whose personal abuse of the late-lamented Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy was an embarrassment is to become the new leader of the SNP’s Westminster group.

    He must mean Ian Blackford. I can find no evidence that Ian Blackford ever personally abused Charles Kennedy. The Daily Mail certainly tries to smear the SNP with the “cybernat” jibe, aided by Brian Wilson, of course. But even the Daily Mail restricts its accusations to SNP “activists”.

    I can find no mention of him being a wealthy funeral director either. According to his Wikipedia entry he was an investment banker.

    What is the point of this type of “criticism” if not to smear and undermine?


    @ Liz g 8.36pm

    “is FOI legislation no reserved tae Westminster Colin?

    A reasonable question Liz.

    The Freedom of Information Act (Scotland) Act 2002 is an act of the Scottish Parliament.

    Scotland has its own FOI commissioner. They deal with FOI requests about public bodies in Scotland, if you have an issue.

    The Data Protection Act, covers personal data of people in Scotland. The Information Commissioner is in England.

    FOI is about an organisation. Such as asking housing associations: what type of external insulation and what type of cladding is used in the tower blocks in Glasgow. Currently they don’t need to provide that info.

    Subject Access Requests SAR is when you want to see how your personal data is being processed, such as requesting the records the council has about you.

  154. stewartb

    Chick McGregor @9.00pm in response to John Young

    The contribution by Callum McCaig MP over trade in the HoC is to be welcomed, and rightly acknowledged.

    However, from the perspective of the Scottish electorate, this is (just) an SNP INPUT/ACTIVITY and regrettably one that will largely go unrecognised. You raising it here, and possibly other similar accounts, are worthwhile (but only) OUTPUTS.

    What really matters are outputs that lead to significant OUTCOMES e.g. information on McCaig’s contribution (and other SNP contributions) being made known to a large number of Scottish voters yet to be convinced to vote for the SNP (and independence), and without undue British Nationalist media’s negative spin. Only with such an outcome, can a significant IMPACT on voting intentions be realised.

    Any re-examination of media/communication approaches need to go well beyond considering (just) inputs/activities/outputs but designed to achieve outcomes and impact. Is this possible – and if so how?

  155. Li g

    Paula Rose @ 10.0
    Don’t know…but the Gin and Wings catch up is ticken along.
    What say you my fragrant (in a good way) friend?

  156. Dave McEwan Hill

    Kevin McKenna has never liked the SNP and there is pretty dire stuff in his piece. But don’t miss the stuff he has got in it that should taken on board seriously. His pointed attack on the timidity of the SNP with a massive mandate and huge power would find considerable agreement.

    What we should register is that we have provided the opportunity for our enemies.

    Let me be blunt.
    We nearly won the referendum
    We got 125,000 members
    We got 56 out of 59 seats
    We had them on the run.

    We shut down the YES campaign and we put indy on the back burner.

    We thought we’d govern Scotland well and we did and we’d get a good press for it.
    We thought we would perform superbly in Westminster and we did and we’d get a good press for it .
    That worked out well.

    Have we just learned some hard lessons?
    But we should have understood from the word go and not needed the lessons.

  157. yesindyref2

    Kevin McKenna? Bit of a Devil’s Advocate at times.

  158. Capella

    More of a Devil’s stenographer I would say.

  159. Dr Jim

    If your neighbour came to you and suggested you shouldn’t bother insuring your house or your car anymore because nothing will ever happen to your precious items and your car will never crash you’d tell them to do one

    The Unionist party is demanding that Scots do just that and more by not insuring our country has protection from unforeseen or impending disaster and trust in a slogan invented by Nigel Farage and the Tory party in England just because they don’t like foreign people

    Whether you like foreign people or not why would you not take out insurance on your property, Scotland is our property
    The SNP offers Scotland free insurance to all so is there some other reason why Unionists don’t want it

    I guess they don’t like us either which is odd seeing as how we’re the people being responsible and trying to keep them safe as well

    They’re an ungrateful lot these Unionists

  160. Macart


    You know Kevin. Serial stirrer and sometime hater of cyclists. 😉

    Kev is stirring and he knows it.

    Last I checked, the SNP don’t govern the indy support only. They govern in the name of all Scot and Kev should know that too. Oh hell! He does know that.

    As I say… stirring.


    @ Liz g

    “Is FOI no a reserved issue?”

    Reasonable question.

    No. FOI is from the Scottish Parliament.

  162. heedtracker

    What is the point of this type of “criticism” if not to smear and undermine?”

    Because the snap general election, repeatedly lied about not happening, mind the fixed term parliament act, is seen as the turning point for UKOK unionists in Scotland and England.

    Its the beginning of the end of the SNP and Scotland’s journey towards becoming a nation state EU member. That Graun thing by Mackenna is just another of the endless versions of it out there, all part of their cunning UKOK plans.

    Last two years of relentless BBC Scotland led monstering of everything and anything SNP, Scottish devo, their Ruth Davidson worship has all come to fruition, glorious bloated BBC yoon culture fruition. BBC England simply blanked out the SNP completely.

    Biggest warning signs were all new BBC Scotland boss going on the National explaining how she was going to win back Scotland’s trust, brutal tory, red and blue cynicism, that we all have to accept, is working.

    If you write the law, clearly you are above the law.


    “The Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 (c. 14) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that received Royal Assent on 15 September 2011, introducing fixed-term elections to the Westminster parliament for the first time. Under the provisions of the Act, parliamentary general elections must be held every five years, beginning in 2015. However, a vote of no confidence in the government, or a two-thirds majority vote in the House of Commons, can still trigger a general election at any time.”

    Did of this tory farce Act apply to Teresa May? did it fudge.

    Lets face it folks, is England really the kind of nation that would permit such a wonderful opportunity of independence to Scots, to give up one of its mere regions, that it considers its bought and paid for and owns, when they themselves are entrenched in a socio economic regime that embraces and worships English extremes of power, wealth and privilege?

    That’s just not how the English mind set works and they get more and more reactionary and entrenched, the closer they get to real power and the harder a lickspittle like Mackenna grovels.

    Its not ever yet though:D

  163. Grouse Beater

    McKenna’s Shilling

    It’s a wonder McKenna’s piece for today’s Observer wasn’t spiked – a cobbled together oddball set of grumpy old man irritations, amounting to seriously sloppy journalism.

    Royal Baubles

    If you advocate UK OK, and down with Scottish autonomy you get a reward. People like me who work for Scotland’s creative wealth get damn all because we are ‘mouthy’ and don’t know the right people.

    My time with Billy Connolly here:

  164. Dr Jim

    “Journalists” as a profession are held in the lowest regard of any profession
    even lower than Tory politicians and yet people read and quote the Shite they write


  165. stu mac

    @Capella says:

    If you are correct, and I believe you are, is that not libellous? Distorting facts is one thing but telling outright lies is something else.

  166. Capella

    @ Stu mac – I copied KMs exact words. I also googled to see what he was talking about and couldn’t find any reference to anything abusive Ian Blackford said about Charles Kennedy.

    So it looks pretty defamatory to me. But I’m no lawyer.

    Calling somebody a funeral director is probably not defamatory. Just inaccurate AFAIK.

  167. Dave McEwan Hill

    We need everybody with car stickers,window stickers, badges and defiance at the moment

  168. heedtracker


    Why Dr Jim, because states like the UK have two kinds of power, soft and hard. Hard power UK bombs, invades, threatens nukings, its way into the world scene, the UKOK sex machine.

    Hard UK power is very expensive but soft UK power is just as costly and its all being turned on us. BBC costs several billion a year and employs over 400,000 deeply loyal, er fanatical Brits.

    To be fair, soft UK power’s been wielded at Scots for 300 years but now we’re living through one of its more extreme displays.

    That’s not say yoon culture, red and blue tory, is not prepared to use hard power in its Scotland region. Look at the fabulous hypocrisy of Ruth D and her warm embrace of the OO.

    But Scotland is now the epicentre of a UKOK soft power war.

  169. Training Day

    McKenna used to write vitriolic anti-SNP/anti Scottish self-determination pieces during his time working – and editorialising for – for the Daily Mail, a newspaper which, if anyone needs reminding, supported fascism and Adolf Hitler. Didn’t seem to bother ‘Kev’.

    People need to stop investing so much faith in carpetbagging ‘journalists’ – really they do.

    Dave at 10.21. On the money about the SNP missing a golden opportunity. Can’t believe you and I ever disagreed about anything – funny eh?

  170. Phronesis

    The vile separatist/ saboteur Sir Ludovic Kennedy in his 1968 BBC radio broadcast ‘the Disunited Kingdom’ on the relevance and utility of being British and Scotland’s submerged nationhood;

    ‘…there can be no denying that this union brought to Scotland a stability in her affairs which she never before had. And there can be equally no denying that we on our part greatly helped you, first by force of arms, to establish and then to administer, the biggest and richest empire there has ever been. Well that empire is now dead…it was the empire above all, that made and kept us British’

    (National Library of Scotland Acc. 10090/113)

    And now Scotland finds itself having voted as a country, a nation, to stay in the EU being told by our WM superiors and supporters that we are irrelevant to the process and we must remain shackled to Empire 2.0. We must look to the chaotic political system of the disunited kingdom for enlightenment because Scotland uniquely, has a dearth of intellectual talent that understands the embedded principles of wealth creation and wealth distribution in policy development. That is a job for the custodians of the magic money tree.

    On a really radical platform Scotland should be recognised as a country, Trident is removed from Scotland’s shores and Scotland has control of its economy which is published in its entirety for all to see. Radical proposals of free university tuition, increased social housing, a nationalised health service and a focus on health inequities as a problem because it adversely affects Scotland’s children, business efficiency and competitiveness, economic strength, commitment to justice and fairness of opportunity are not really that radical in Scotland.

  171. Liz g

    Heedtracker @ 11.17
    Soft power hasn’t been used for 300 year’s at all Heedtracker!
    We have been held at the point of a gun ..for a good number of those years…
    Universal suffrage hasn’t been around all that long, but just as soon as it was Scotland started to agitate to get out.
    Just as, soon as human rights and international Court’s became normal Scotland started to agitate to get out.
    Through it all we get threats,but still Scotland agitates to get out.
    I do worry that Westminster will decide that mibbi a harder power is required!

  172. Breeks

    Brexit talks tomorrow.

    What are we doing Tuesday?

  173. crazycat

    @ John Edgar at 8.47

    Severe pedantry alert 🙂 :

    During the Thatcher years when Labour were the largest party in Scotland, at election times Helen Liddell used to crow that the defeat of Donald Stewart on the Western Isles was great, yet the Tories continued to reign and rule!

    Donald Stewart was MP for Western Isles continuously from 1970 till 1987, when he retired. The seat was then won by Labour, but he personally was never defeated.

    I’ve no doubt HL crowed, though. I’ve always felt that Stalin’s real granny didn’t deserve to have her title taken in vain.

  174. crazycat

    @ Capella

    Re: Ian Blackford

    After the 2015 election, The National ran a series profiling all Scotland’s MPs (including the pandas), which they stopped part-way through when a book came out covering the same ground.

    I kept the ones they did publish, and have just re-read Ian Blackford’s. There is no mention of funeral direction.

    But I do vaguely remember, when attempts were being made to smear all the SNP MPs, that something was alleged about him, though I thought it was care homes rather than funerals.

    There was a Wings article listing all the attacks; it might be in there. Stoker should know what it was called, since he’s transferred them all to Off-topic!

  175. crazycat

    Found it:

    It was holiday cottages, cold-calling, and the Golden Charter Trust, which does indeed market funeral plans.
    “The Golden Charter Trust (the Trust) was established in 1990 to hold, invest and administer the funds received from individuals and families who have purchased funeral plans sold by Golden Charter Limited. The Trust is a fund whose assets are entirely separate and independent of Golden Charter Limited.

    The Trust exists both for the protection of funeral directors who have undertaken to carry out the funeral services in accordance with the plan terms and conditions, and for the plan holders themselves.”

    Not the same thing as a funeral director; this is an investment arrangement and IB was an investment banker.

  176. crazycat

    I should pay more attention to the things I quote!

    The Golden Charter Trust does not market the plans; that’s Golden Charter Limited.

    Still not a funeral director, though.

  177. crazycat

    At risk of talking to myself with a fifth consecutive post, I’ve now read the McKenna article and I suspect I know why he’s in such a tizzy.

    There is a Catholic primary school in Milngavie, which was trying to opt out of local authority control. Free schools in England have been a disaster. After quite a lengthy campaign, the request was denied. Kevin has very strong views about the desirablility of separate Catholic education; he’s upset. Upset enough, perhaps, to go overboard about a whole lot of other things.

    Despite that, I do think he makes some valid points. The dig at Ian Blackford, however, was at best inaccurate, and mean-spirited.

  178. Still Positive

    Kevin McKenna will say whatever his employers want from his articles – he is freelance and will swing to whoever is paying him.

  179. scottieDog

    For me the biggest wakeup call in all of this has been the destructive efficiency of the establishment press. It’s the way they picked up the momentum of a result which was not a disaster and have everyone on the winning side reeling. It’s very very clinical.
    Luckily I can see enough people on the yes side digging in and slowing things down before things get out of hand.

    It’s just another thing learned on the journey. It shows us the task ahead. It’s incredible that one of the most destructive govts the uk has ever had is being shielded by the press in scotland. They defend uk gov by going on the attack against the SNP and take attention away from
    Brexit which is potentially massively damaging.

    Lets not do their work for them.

    What we have is precious. A democratic mandate to give people a choice about protecting their eu citizenship. We give that up and we give up all our resources to be bargained away over the next 2 years.

    Rather than talk about a referendum mandate (which we have) let’s contrast the different visions of an indy scotland with a post brexit one run by WM. Don’t wait for the opinion polls to move, let’s make them move.

  180. Meg merrilees


    Just hearing news on the World service of another incident in London!!!
    A van has driven into people in Seven Sisters. Police say it is a major incident.

  181. defo

    Loathe is a strong sentiment, but I have come to it with this individual.
    From doing the online dirty french poodle shtick for Lord Fou, to managing it all by, and for, herself.
    And all the while Utterly bereft of the capability of original thought .
    You can imagine the prevailing, unremitting topic of the day is ‘How to cook up some SNP BAD’ at Slab HQ, but this sorry excuse of a human being is supposed to be a leader. She’s even been on the Yankies Leadership junket/programming opportunity.

    To the personal, when my eldest’s P7 class went on the Parly visit nearly 5 years ago.
    The despicable Dugdale was supposed to be doing the tour, but called off on their arrival. Busy.
    Their teacher clocked her later on, chatting away merrily and in no apparent hurry at all.
    Couldn’t find an hour. Could have been an inspiring one for some, but well never know.

    Truth be told, if I was her father (old enough, but far too good looking, and sane. Relatively), I’d be compelled to tell her to have a right good look at herself. Remember the sad eyed Heil picture ?
    Ugly on the inside.

    It would be acceptable if her, and her allies were merely benign, but the maliciousness is there for all to see.

    Serving Scotland ?
    Up on a platter, for the English Establishment !

  182. Meg merrilees

    Hearing reports on the World Service of another incident in London.

    A vehicle has been driven into pedestrians in Seven Sisters.
    A man has been arrested. Several people hurt.

  183. crazycat

    @ scottieDog

    Yes, I agree we can’t wait for the polls to move. Now that there are no more elections (yet), it should be easier to campaign differently.

    Meanwhile, it may be remembered that, prior to the GE, Ruth was so confident of gaining Perth and Perthshire North that she was (allegedly) scheming to bypass the next person in line for the MEP job, and replace her with her own pal (another dubious Orangeman, by all accounts).

    Having been foiled by Pete Wishart’s victory (phew!), she’s found a way round it:

    It seems that when Tories are elected to one legislature, they have no scruples at all about abandoning it quite soon afterwards (Ian Duncan has only been an MEP since 2014) for an alternative, regardless of the voters’ verdict.

    That’s not new of course – nor confined to the Tories – rejected MPs have often found their way to the Lords sharpish.

  184. Robert Peffers

    @stewartb says: 18 June, 2017 at 8:32 pm:

    ” … So pragmatically, what can the SNP do to mitigate further the prevailing media climate? A more ‘aggressive’ rebuttal operation; a much improved social media presence; a regular, high profile (say quarterly?) ‘state of the nation’ press conference with various SG ministers present (and another one with SNP MPs and MEPs present to report on what they are doing for Scotland) that the media cannot just ignore?

    None of the above. Believe me most things have been tried and it seems like the job of getting the, “late, lame and lazy”, people who seem very set upon castigating the SNP for just about everything and who seem well able to be bothered sopping up the propaganda and then complaining bitterly about the SNP is really down to the rank & File SNP party members and Grass Roots Indy supporters to spread the word. The MPs, MSPs, MEPs and councillors have more than enough on their plate already.

    We all saw a prime example of how the BBC operate in regards to the SNP when the SNP held a Press Conference for the international Press. The BBC sent along Wee Nick Robinson and a camera crew, even although it was supposedly a press conference for the International media which the BBC isn’t.

    Wee Nick Robinson was right in there with very, very aggressive questioning as if he, and not Alex Salmond were running the show. His frankly insulting question was very calmly answered at length by Salmond who actually made a right arse if Wee Nickie and some of Robinson’s stuff was downright obnoxious.

    Literally within minutes of the conference ending the BBC was broadcasting a news report about the international press conference and Wee Nick, in spite of the several minutes Salmond spent answering him claimed, “And he didn’t answer”.

    I edited and showed both the actual press conference footage and the BBC edited and broadcast news insert where Robinson plainly lied at the time.

    Watch it for yourself. It begins with Nick Robinson lying through his teeth. Then it shows the actual non-BBC footage of the International Press Conference that the BBC couldn’t doctor.

    I was doing several such videos at that time but suffered complications to an old set of injuries that landed me flat on by back looking at the ceiling unable to move.

    I required care assistance but got a couple of crooks instead. They tried to rob me. It’s a long story but the upshot was they destroyed lots of my home equipment and even my gas central heating and electric ring mains. It also included mucking up much of my cutting edge video and computer gear. I’m only now getting some of it sorted out and hope to get back to producing edited videos again in the near future.

    Anyway, I hope you enjoy my efforts and if you can use them to show how the BEEB lie to us then be my guest and feel free to distribute the video wherever you can.

  185. Robert Peffers

    @Capella says: 18 June, 2017 at 9:22 pm:

    “Dave McEwan Hill 9:02
    Sometimes the hardest criticism to take is the one that hits the most good points.
    OK – so what are the good points?”

    Great retort, Capella. Lucky for me I had already swallowed my mouthful of tea.

  186. Robert Peffers

    @Balaaargh says: 18 June, 2017 at 9:56 pm:

    “Billy Connolly said he would rather be Bosnian than Scottish. For someone who built his career on his Scottishness before heading to Hollywood, I couldn’t care what awards he got.”

    I stopped liking Connolly when he stopped playing the banjo with the Humblebums.

  187. Robert Peffers

    @Capella says: 18 June, 2017 at 10:36 pm:

    “More of a Devil’s stenographer I would say.”

    You’re on fire tonight, Capella. Mair power tae yer elby.

  188. yesindyref2

    I have to wonder if the SNP realise that those 13 Conservative MPs at Westminster are the SNP’s greatest asset – and are working on ways to use them, and use them again and again and again.

    Could be a reason they’ve gone quiet. The SNP that is!

  189. Robert Peffers

    That’s a strange one. I put a link into my post about BBC lies and it was there in the post but didn’t get reproduced in what appeared and I had removed the http:// bit correctly.

    Here it is again … hopefully:-

    Nick Robinson’s lying claim that Salmond didn’t answer his, (Nick’s), question when the World’s press knew he got a long and straight answer.

  190. Rock

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “I am surprised a the somewhat over the top reaction Kevin McKenna’s piece.Sometimes the hardest criticism to take is the one that hits the most good points”

    One of the points you had been using to flog the fake “independence supporting” The National was that Alex Salmond wrote articles for it.

    It seems Alex Salmond’s articles had zero or negative effect on his former constituents.

    The only thing that can have a positive effect to the independence cause is blaring WOS type front page headlines everyday.

  191. Rock

    The National, sister of The Herald and The Sunday Herald, is as fake as the Labour party in Scotland.

  192. geeo

    Wonder if this will be called a terrorist act ?

    Van driven into Muslims leaving midnight prayers.

  193. Breeks

    Thepnr says:
    18 June, 2017 at 6:57 pm
    “have many of you ever tried to put a friend “right” about Brexit and it’s likely events

    I have and it’s bloody difficult…..”

    Well I have tried to put my friend, the SNP, right about broadcasting, and how absolutely vital it is going to be to have our own Scottish news and current affairs network in place and up and running when the ScotRef debate gets intense.

    There isn’t a single facet or feature concerning Independence or the SNP’s performance in government which has been exempt from distortion by the Unionist media. We are not fighting for Independence on the merits of Independence, we are continually, all the time, fighting for Independence by trying to correct the tone and accuracy of a hostile media which has no intention of correcting its sneering disrespect for Scotland and the SNP, and doesn’t even pay lip service to accuracy.

    The Unionist media’s capacity to focus on an issue and affect public opinion to form a very jaded opinion of that issue is very damaging to any positive narrative we are trying to put across. Take for example the current attitudes about no to referendums, we’ve had too many. What absolute bollocks. By what wicked and twisted logic does seeing your country dragged against its will to a mighty economic precipice and thrown into the Abyss warp translate into not being the right time to have a referendum which can save us from disaster?

    There are two primary issues in Scottish politics. No, that doesn’t belittle the roll and success of SNP government, but two primary issues which in my opinion dwarf all others.

    The first is Independence. We need to emancipate our Sovereignty from this deeply injurious Union and faux Westminster democracy.

    Second, we must avoid the colossal reckless act of self harm that is Brexit. It is only self harm in a UK context. We didn’t vote for it, so there’s no “self” harm involved. It is pure third party assault harm with us the victim being harmed. It’s Westminster government and UK style democracy directly visiting harm upon us. Yet another misconception which having our own media network could correct.

    I have sympathy for the SNP, because the hostile media is very damaging and powerful, and it is not an easy wild beast to contain. But the current policy is not working.

    The media says education is failing in Scotland. The narrative is embedded in the minds of the public, but it isn’t true. Try putting your children through a University education in England to see whether Scotland’s access to free education is indeed “failing”.

    The media says our NHS is in crisis. That isn’t true either. Yes it faces challenges in funding, but again, our NHS is performing well, not just in service provided but being protected from creeping privatisation and malevolent dismantling through SNP policy.

    We all know the media’s script. Don’t we? The only time Independence gets a mention is to dismiss it as an obsession. It’s not an obsession that brings it the fore, it’s the fact that it’s a vital necessity which the media cannot bury.

    If I could change SNP strategy, and I say that from outside the SNP fold, I would be both a lot more creative and ruthless in getting a news and current affairs broadcasting regime set up in Scotland. We are at war constitutionally, if not war, then certainly in a state of emergency. Scotland requires a voice to speak within itself. We should suffer no interference, be bold, commanding, and just do it. Set up our network.

    The second change would be to have two manifestos. A domestic governmental manifesto, and a separate independence manifesto. Keep all the SNP / media cat and mouse rhetoric about education, health etc contained in the domestic context for domestic elections, but have a second, separate manifesto dedicated to the singular objective of Independence.

    Education. “Stick to your record!” Snaps rude boy Robinson. “Stick to the manifesto BBC. It’s ALL about Sovereignty and what Sovereignty means in all things”.

    I’ve tried to put a friend right, but they’re stubborn, and don’t seem to listen.

  194. Pitchfork

    Has anyone made a list of the appointments made by the three “minority labour” (ie lab tory coalition) councils? How many Tories voted to committee chairs by Labour councillors?
    Anyone got a link? This would be an effective way of hammering home the reality of ScotLab Tory collision

  195. Pitchfork


  196. Al Dossary

    “Suspected” terror attack seemingly according to today’s radio.

    As always, non-white lives matter less than “white” lives to thw MSM. Were it white London era attacked on the way from Church it certainly would be !

  197. heedtracker

    Rock says:
    19 June, 2017 at 2:40 am
    The National, sister of The Herald and The Sunday Herald, is as fake as the Labour party in Scotland.

    That’s deep. Meanwhile, all new and exciting conservative and unionist party led by Mrs May is so weak, today’s Brexit negotiations begin with a tory gov unlikely to be around to even implement whatever it is the psycho tories do get handed by the EU.

  198. Dorothy Devine

    Pitchfork , that ‘collision’ was just wishful thinking on the way things should be – ‘collusion’ should not be part of the their thinking but all three have melded into a party of unionist Lib/Lab/Con , they are trash.

  199. heedtracker

    BBC Scotland gimps, bettertogether with Fluffie, lay down the law.

    Usual creepy beeb Scotland gimpery word choices. They mean, no indyref2, til after next Scots GE, when beeb gimps will have got the SNP out, but the tory beeb spin goes,

    Mundell: No indyref2 before 2021 Holyrood elections
    18 June 2017
    From the section Scotland politics

    which is far less BBC Scotland creepy:-(

  200. Fred

    Kevin’s a prostitute &, sadly, prostitutes attract abuse!

  201. Robert Peffers

    @Pitchfork says:19 June, 2017 at 6:26 am:

    *Confusion*, There! Sorted.

  202. Smallaxe

    A collusion of an interfusion of confusion;
    Your move!

    Peace Always

  203. tatu3

    Westminster want the Scots to delay IndyRef2 until they have the time to fight it. If we were to have it soon, they’ll be too busy with Brexit to have much to do with us and our campaigning and they wouldn’t like that.

  204. ScottieDog

    I saw the article about Ian Duncan and a place in the lords. Thing is nothing surprises me anymore.
    We can use all this to our advantage but as part of a positive campaign for independence. I don’t think we should differentiate labour from the tories in comparing a vision of the future. Both parties are responsible for moral and financial atrocities and are no friends of Scotland.

    Keep promoting the positive vision that Scotland could be. Come the next elections, if we build a consensus and there is only one party willing to facilitate that future such as the SNP, then that’s who people will vote for.

    Anyone not really politically engaged, is easily confused over what’s devolved and what’s not devolved. My sister who voted YES, was voting lib dems because willie rennie during GE 17 promised to put more money into holyrood for mental health. I tried to explain that the decision over health spending was devolved so unless he was in power in holyrood, he couldn’t make that decision.

    In simple terms, the creation of money is not devolved and we can’t really move forward to realise the vision until it is.

    The SNP fought a conventional campaign in unconventional times. That’s all really but as a movement we can start now and there’s lots being done already.
    We can be ready for the hard questions rather than being purely reactive, for example do people know that a nation, in international law can redenominate foreign debt into its own currency. The convention is known as ‘lex monitae’, I’m not insinuating that Scotland has any debt but it bats away the crap about us somehow being broke before we start.

  205. Smallaxe

    Nana: Good Morning, it’s a glorious day here. I’m having a continental breakfast this morning. Thank You for Your Lovely Links.
    Kettle’s on! Peace Always

  206. Macart

    Ta Nana. 🙂

  207. Nana

    Good morning Smallaxe. It’s a wee bit cloudy here, hopefully the sun will appear later.

    Everyone said Old Europe was dying. Sure doesn’t look like it now

  208. gus1940

    The desperation of the unionists and their pals in the media to kill off Indyref2 and Nicola continues with the emphasis now being on spinning the lie that civil war has broken out within the SNP regarding the holding of and timing of Indyref2.

    They have over the last few days twisted the remarks of Ian Blackford and Tommy Sheppard into attacks on the current party policy of holding Indyref2 once the terms negotiated for Brexit are clear. Nothing in their comments suggests that they disagree with that policy.

    Unsurprisingly the usual failed rejects Sillars and Gordon Wilson are throwing their customary spanners into the SNP workers accompanied now by that other bitter tractor Alex Bell who is rapidly becoming a favourite of the unionist media.

    It must be emphasised that the only ones other than the media attacking the SNP Indyref2 policy are no longer active elected politicians and that they were failures and earned well deserved rejection.

    The sooner Nicola makes it absolutely clear that the SNP policy re Indyrfef2 remains the same as it has been since the immediate aftermath of the EU Ref. namely that it will take place once the results of the Brexit negotiations are known and not before.

    Unfortunately our biased media and the unionist parties seem to have succeeded in convincing a large number of naive individuals that The SNP have been and are currently arguing for an immediate Indyref2.

    I haven’t included Kenny McCaskill with the tractors named above as I am not sure just what his agenda is.

    How long can it be before it is essential that said tractors are expelled from the party. I suppose that Lyndon Johnson’s theory regarding micturation within and without the tent must be considered.

  209. Robert Peffers

    Oh! For goodness sake, folks. Stop getting the media propaganda into your heads and letting it upset you. What the media is attempting to make out is as queer as a square orange.

    The SNP, as the Scottish Government, already had a mandate to call an independence referendum at a time of the SG’s choice. That mandate was confirmed by the SNP winning an overall majority in the more recent General Election.

    In case you had not noticed the SNP got 35 seats and that is more than the unionist parties put together. The SNP did NOT lose the election as the yoons are attempting to claim. There was no message from voters to the SNP to shelve the promise of a referendum nor to put it back until after the Brexit negotiations because that was the original plan anyway.

    Furthermore, the idiocy of Fluffy is very apparent as the SNP was returned with an overall majority over the combined yoon opposition and the SG’s claim has always been that they would call a referendum AFTER the Brexit results were known so Fluffy is NOT, (as the BEEB is trying to spin), making any other claim than what was always the SNP/SG claim to hold a referendum AFTER Brexit results were known.

    Furthermore, Tommy Shepard is NOT disputing what Nicola has always said. He is saying exactly the same as Nicola said that a referendum will only be called after the Brexit negotiation results are known.

    It is all only BBC/Westminster Establishment spin and the only thing that has changed is that the mandate for a referendum has been reaffirmed by the SNP being returned with a retained overall majority.

  210. Ken500

    A few hundred transferred votes Alex Salmond would have won. Alex Salmond wrote more in the P & J than the National. The National has less readership in the NE. It is difficult to get a copy after noon. It is getting better.

    The P & J /EE The P & EE (Thomson group) is the biggest selling paper in the NE. Thomson is a Unionist from Dundee. The Sunday Post etc. Chairman of one of Dundee football clubs. The P & J/EE doesn’t support Independence. Prints anti SNP/Independence article all the time.Many people do not buy it because of it’s bias. Readership dropping.

    Some farmer/fisherman were told if they vote for Unionist Parties They will get Brexit. A false narrative. They are being lied to by Unionists. They found out three days after they voted. It was not true. Davidson announced alternative Tory plans to stay in the singje market etc. Rather similar to the Document the SNP put forward in a white paper, which were dismissed out of hand, Corbyn reneging on Brexit? The majority in the UK want to stay in the EU. Full membership. It is the only way to protect the economy, rights and jobs.

    The Unionist at Westminster caused the migration crisis in Europe and more people coming into Europe/UK, by illegally bombing the Middle East to bits for years and causing illegal wars. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Wasting Trns of public money and causing hardship and death. Scotland is a left of centre country compatible with the EU. England/Wales had turned to the right, The Tory right wing Party. Extreme right (facist/racist) elements had taken over. Including May. The Tory Brexit. Corbyn supports Brexit.

    Corbyn/Labour could have taken Cameron down. Instead they passed through or abstained every Tory austerity measure. Gave illegal war support. Labour started an internal fight instead. Their egos getting the better of them. Brexit will destroy the economy. The majority in the UK, especially Scotland support EU membership. The Unionists at Westminster support taking The UK out of the EU, when the majority want to stay. A big task. Corbyn is not a saviour. People could be disappointed. Duplicity, dishonesty, hypocrisy and broken promises, The Unionist Parties.

    The Tory/Unionist have lied to the electorate to get votes. Some farmer/fishermen have not done much research. About Brexit. There is still much support form the SNP/Independence. The SNP did not hold by a small majority. With all the different undercurrents going on. It was an unusual verdict. Many people have voters remorse about their decision. It will damage the NE. Another useless non descript Tory/Unionist. Out to line their own pockets and wasting public money. Against the public wishes and the majority wishes, Part of the Unionist cabel. A relative few people. Most folk don’t know who he is, and care even less. Apathy lets them get away with it.

    The Unionist targeted sest where they thought they would win. They can’t do that every time. Some (young) people voted for Labour (Corbyn). In a higher number than usual. Gordon NE is always between conservative – (right wing) and SNP. It was LibDem for over thirty years. Not because folk supported LibDem but to keep the Torues out. There was no point in voting Labour – a wasted vote? There was sometimes not even a Labour candidate standing. SSP? (Tommy Sheridan once had a candidate)

    Less people voted. Brexit, apathy and electioneer fatigue. People expected Alex to win it. So did not vote. Some young folk voted Corbyn without ‘doing their research’. Without realising they would let the Tories in. They were telt and telt. They support Independence in the EU More people (increased %) voted LibDem. Slightly than usual. Without realising they would let the Tory in? Events set up to collide.

    Alex Salmond did everything for the NE after years of Unionist/Green neglect. Alex Salmond did more for the NE in five years than the Unionist did in fifty. The essential projects in the area are all down to Alex Salmond. The airport expansion,. The Bay wind turbine project under way. The Golf Developments. The essential,AWPR (40 year wait – illegally blocked by Unionist/Green). The Unionists did nothing for years as £Billions of Oil & Gas revenues went down to Westminster to be wasted, illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Neglecting Scotland. Westminster Unionist lies, secrecy and deceit.

    The LibDems had a green chairman of the infrastructure committee for years. Masquerading as a LibDem to get elected and into power. Deceitful. Blocking essential development. They met up at the local landowners’ house for drinks. Wine and cheese. Council Rep in the Unionist landowners’ pockets. Local Unionist councillors were landowners or their mates in the Shire. The SNP group still have a high presence but not the outright majority. It was relative 50/50. A few deflections can swing it either way. There are a few Independents. The usual Unionist gang up to try and keep the SNP out. The STV system an affront to democracy. Introduce by Unionist Parties, without a mandate.

    The biggest group in the City Council are SNP. They increased their members. The Unionist/green gang up to keep them out. They do it for Office and remuneration. Put up their own remuneration. There were four LibDem councillors, which could have given the SNP a majority. They said they would not go into a coalition with the SNP but would vote on each separate issue. Or the SNP/LibDem would have had a one majority. The previous, but one, SNP/LibDem administration run the City. They brought good improvements and investment. The UTGP was underway. Supported by the majority in the public interest.and supporting pedestrianisation. What the public wanted. Cutting traffic chaos and lowering harmful emissions. The highest recorded in the Ciy.

    Labour lost half? their seats. Willy Young out Clone Barney Crooket. Labour (9) went in with the Tories/green A Libdem declared Independent to join the Unionist group. To give a majority to the Unionist group. Just after being ejected as a LibDem (EU membership) betrayed the voters immediately after being elected. The Tories gained (Brexit/anti Independence) seats. They is already derision. A 74 year old Tory (nightmare) who has a second home in Inverness and likes sailing and crochet. Is going to replace Ross Thomson? on the list for Holyrood. Keeping the council seat to prevent any by ekection which could give the SNP another seat and (greater) control of the Council.

    The Labour/Tory/green/former LibDem administration are already cutting jobs, there is a shortage of teachers, not redress. They are giving voluntary redundancy to staff including teachers. After illegally borrowing, squandering and wasting £Millions. Getting into £1.2Billion of debt. In the previous administration. A total shambles of illegal mismanagement. The council officials they appoint are in on it. Not following proper procedure. Councillors are illegally accessing public fubds for their personal benefit. Crooket previously went on many Council sponsored overseas trips. Costing thousands. Sometimes for a meeting for an hour. It is being swept under the carpet by the Unionists and nothing is being do about it. They are just getting away with it. The Unionist in City council Act illegally and the Council Officers, they appoint do not follow the correct guide lines and procedures.

    Without the Projects Alex Salmond brought forward the NE economy would have stagnated. The NE economy been affected by the the Oil downturn. The Tory/Unionists are taxing the Oil sector at 40%, since Jan 2016. Illegal high Tory taxes. Losing thousands of jobs and revenues. Importing a shale gas from the US. Importing Gas from Norway etc. Alex Salmond/SNP Gov have invested in arenewables. Got in investment and grants from tge EU and other sources for Renewables. A great on going success in Scotland. Scotland is self sufficient in food and energy. Food and drink exports are up.

    Alex Salmond saved the NE economy. Prevented further decline supporting investment and jobs. A NE champion.for years. Loved, respected and admired by the majority in the NE, Scotland, UK and the world. A world class Statesman. He has promoted Scotland worldwide and out Scotland on the world map. The Unionists have not heard the last of this. A bscklash under way. Davidson is a manipulative liar.

  211. Peter McCulloch

    Has Kezia Dugdale told Corbyn yet how proud she is at telling people in Scotland to vote Tory to stop the SNP, the result being the election of 13 Tory MPs in Scotland
    thereby denying him the keys to No10.

  212. Nana

    Not sure whether to laugh or cry. Ian Duncan having been rejected by the voters of Perth is now a lord and set up for a position in the Scotland office and we will be paying his salary.

    The courier is running an article based on Nicola’s tweet earlier so they can fill the comments with unionist attacks.

    G A Ponsonby is correct by saying the media in Scotland is out of control.

  213. Dave McEwan Hill

    Ken500 at 9 am

    Saw lots of Barney Crocket on the BBC yesterday

  214. Capella

    @ crazycat – just catching up with the thread – thx for unearthing the info about Ian Blackford – as you say, not a funeral director, more an investment trustee.

    I think you’re right about KMs rage over Catholic education. It’s not good journalism though and he has a platform that the rest of us are denied. Although WoS maybe has a bigger circulation now!

    @ Robert Peffers 🙂

  215. stu mac

    @crazycat says:
    19 June, 2017 at 12:29 am
    The dig at Ian Blackford, however, was at best inaccurate, and mean-spirited.


    That describes a great deal of what he writes.

  216. Smallaxe

    Far Right Man speak with forked tongue. Breaks all Treaties!

    “The ground on which we stand is sacred ground. It is the dust and blood of our ancestors.”

    Chief Plenty Coups, Crow (1848 – 1932)

    Peace Always

  217. Chick McGregor


    Sorry, missed your comment yesterday.

    Short answer, I dunno.

    On the trade deficit crisis, manufacturing crisis and the appalling equipment investment situation, I have posted here, several times, with graphs. But if most Wingers don’t pick up on it, what chance the average Jock?

  218. Liz

    Replying to those saying McKennas piece was constructive criticism.

    It was a hatchet job on the SNP. He gave them no credit for anything. Calling them cowardly pygmies is a fucking disgrace.

    They take on the full weight of establishment flak and cowards like McKenna sit back and allow it to happen.

    Make no mistake without the SNP there will be no indy.
    Vote for whatever the hell you like after but unless the SNP get full support from a indy voters, it won’t happen.

    BTW the article I’m talking about was in the herald not the one about awards, i can’t archive it from my phone

  219. Hamish100

    Rock says:
    19 June, 2017 at 2:40 am
    The National, sister of The Herald and The Sunday Herald, is as fake as the Labour party in Scotland.

    At 240am in the morning you repeat ad nauseum this! Are you just off shift. Living abroad ?
    You have said many times you don’t read papers. I believe you. An uneducated troll and anti the only Indy paper in Scotland. Shows you up wee man.

  220. gus1940

    Is Lord Duncan not an MEP?

    What happens to his MEP sea?t – does it just go to the next Tory on the list.

  221. crazycat

    @ gus1940

    Ian Duncan is indeed an MEP. His seat ought to go to the next person on the Tory list, but she’s allegedly fallen foul of Ruth.

    Prior to the GE, there were suggestions that Ruth was trying to subvert the process by promoting the third person on the list – I have no idea whether she can do this, but I suppose she might “persuade” number 2 to step aside.

    At that point, her machinations looked like over-confidence that Duncan would defeat Pete Wishart; having failed at that, she seems to have found a way round it, either because she really, really wants ID in government, or because she desperately wants her pal in the European Parliament – for maybe only 2 years.

  222. crazycat

    After I’d submitted my last post, I wondered if peers can be MEPs – they can’t, so he will be standing down.

  223. Wull

    It does not seem to me so bad that Mundell now accepts an Indyref taking place in 2021, after the Scottish Holyrood elections.

    Did he not used to trot out the old ‘once in a generation’ argument? That means that Mundell, and all his ilk, now accept that ‘a generation’ can be once every 7 years. That’s a good deal shorter than what he was previously saying.

    So let’s take it – i.e. record it – (for now). And hold him to it – (for ever).

    He did not even say it was impossible before 2021, just that he could not envisage any circumstances in which it could take place before then. Because that would mean holding it before the Scottish people knew the terms of Brexit.

    Once again, a give-away on the part of Mundell. He has just told us the UK’s newly cooked strategy. Namely, they have no intention of concluding the Brexit negotiations until just before the 2021 elections in Scotland.

    We may also be sure that if the polling in Scotland at that point in time (2021) looks bad for them and their fellow Brexiteers, and positive for Indy, they will attempt to kick the negotiations further into touch. In that ‘circumstance’, they will try to ensure that the final terms of the Brexit deal are not known until AFTER the Scottish elections of 2021.

    This presumes that the EU will go along with this dastardly plan. But why should it? Would it not have to change its own rules to do so?

    My understanding – someone please correct me if I am wrong – is that there is a time limit on how long a leaving member can negotiate for I can’t remember the figure – was it 18 months? Or two years? As far as I remember, not more than that. 2019, at the latest, as NS continually pointed out.

    Would all 27 EU nations unanimously agree to let the UK drag its feet interminably on the negotiations? For something that UK unionists see as profitable to them, but which brings the EU nothing? Why should the EU change its rules just to suit some internal agenda of some UK political faction(s) – the UK unionist Parties?

    They might even perceive that agenda as contrary to their own interests. Instead of encouraging Scotland to remain in the UK they might prefer to give Scotland the chance to become a full member of the EU in her own right.

    Even without that consideration, I can’t imagine the likes of France just rolling over and allowing the UK Brexiteers to carry on their political game-playing indefinitely. They will hold the UK to the timetable the UK itself set, when it triggered Brexit in March 2017.

    Indeed, I can imagine France insisting that the time-frame be strictly adhered to. And if the UK does not like it, or fails to reach agreement within the time foreseen, it will just have to leave without any deal at all.

    Why should France worry about that not being in the best interests of the UK, as Mr. Hammond so plainly admitted on Sunday?

    No deal for the UK might even be a very good deal for France, and for some other European countries as well. And the UK could not complain that France is being unfair if that is the outcome. It was the UK that triggered Brexit, and Mrs May knew the rules (including the timetable required) when she did so.

    ‘You did not manage it on time – well, sorry chum, stuff you!’

    Make no mistake about it (and we Scots should be under no illusions in that regard either) France will do whatever is in France’s own best interests. French politicians play for France, not for the UK. (And not for Scotland either by the way – we pride ourselves on the Auld Alliance, but it’s so auld the French forgot about it long ago!)

    I cannot imagine any ‘circumstance’ in which all 27 EU member states are going to play ball with the UK’s exit strategy and revised timetable, which our dear Mr. Mundell has so kindly revealed, just to help the UK with its own little local difficulties (with Scotland).

    No way! Contrary to Mr Mundell’s and the Tory strategists’ fantasies, that is not what the Brexit negotiations are about. Not for any of the EU member states, that is. Let the UK solve its own problems – this is about gaining economic and political advantages. For the EU, not for the UK.

    And that brings me to a final point.

    Why are all the UK Unionist Parties, along with their loyal Scottish collaborators, so desperate to get the SNP to drop Indyref2 – and not just from the table, but from the horizon? Which horizon do I mean?

    The horizon of the Brexit negotiations with the EU.

    They don’t want potential Scottish independence as a backdrop to what they are negotiating. Not even as distant background music. They don’t want the EU negotiators to see or hear tell of it. They want that to be a purely internal UK matter which has nothing whatever to do with the negotiations. Something that looms nowhere near them – and not even, indeed, at a far-away distance from them.

    The trouble for them (the Unionist Parties) is that they cannot do that – i.e. remove Indyref2 from the table / horizon / backdrop (whatever you want to call it) – for themselves.

    They have to get the SNP to do it for them.

    If the SNP remove Indyref2 from the agenda themselves, the Unionists will have snookered them, and the potential prospect (or specter) of Scottish independence will indeed disappear from the Brexit negotiations altogether. The EU negotiators will ignore it altogether, and will not be bearing in mind that Scotland might eventually become a full member state of their (European) Union. Just what the Unionists want …

    If, by contrast, the UK unionists themselves take positive action to remove the prospect of Indyref2, they know – and their EU negotiating partners will be well aware – that they are acting in an undemocratic way towards Scotland. With Indyref 2 on the table at the end of the Brexit talks, and Scotland a potential member of the EU, even the EU negotiators would have a keener eye for protecting Scotland’s interests.

    Whatever is in Scotland’s interest would be more likely to be perceived as being in the EU’s actual, or at least potential interest, as well.

    The EU might even make some concessions in Scotland’s interests in order to encourage Scotland to become a fully European independent country.

    To be fair to the English Brexiteers, you can see why – politically speaking – they don’t want pro-Indy Scottish involvement in the negotiations. From their perspective, that is like inviting in a third column. One, of course, which will seek to protect Scotland’s interests instead of England’s, or even at the expense of England’s, which they will pass off as those of the whole of the UK.

    Such is the fear …

    You can see why they do not want the prospect of Scottish independence to be a factor in the negotiations, and why they especially fear SNP involvement in them. This fear is palpable in the onslaught of Unionist propaganda – all of it yelling for the SNP to take the Indyref off the table – to which we and the SNP have been subjected throughout, and still more so after, the GE.

    Do for us what we cannot do for ourselves- please shoot yourself in the foot and remove Indyref2, so that we can heave a sigh of relief and get on with the negotiations in the way that we want, unhindered.

    I think this Unionist fear is irrational, and much of it arises because they see the SNP as anti-English, which in fact it is not.

    Far from wanting to sink England, or England’s genuine interests, the SNP wants to help them get a good deal. The best possible. If only so that Scottish-English relations remain the best possible after our independence, and the border an open one.

    The SNp must keep Indyref2 alive. The negotiators on all sides need to be aware of that popspect – or specter. It is the best way to guarantee, as far as possible, that Scotland’s interest are protected. Not only from within the UK negotiating team, but also by the EU negotiators as well.

    Keep it, Nicola: We all need it! Even England needs it to be there, for its own ultimate good.

  224. Wull

    Sorry, posted above post on wrong site. Meant it for the more recent article. Will post it again.

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