Things we don’t remember
Posted on
September 28, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
This is shadow Chancellor John McDonnell speaking to the Labour Party conference in Brighton just a few minutes ago (immediately prior to rather presumptuously inviting the Scottish electorate to “come home to Labour”):
We don’t recall those things happening. We feel sure that if they had, they would have been mentioned in the papers. Can any readers help us out?
He has been listening to the branch office managers again. They really need to check facts before the local office gets you laughed at.
SNP BAD! change the record.
Its incipient dementia, Stu. Of course they did, the big boy on the telly has just told you.
Couldn’t believe my ears!!…So disappointed.
J McDonnell speech now – Aye come back for another smack (into line) eh? Liars all within Labour.
Seething hatred of the SNP still evident. (Lets put the olive branches to bed now FFS).
Sad to say the rhetoric coming out of this bunch of muppets leading Labour now reaffirms the need for the SNP to steer clear of pacts etc, (untrustworthy as ever – wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole) SNP should vote on matters with Labour support by coincidence only.
No pacts with vindictive lying nutters thank you very much.
Labour as always will be the biggest hurdle to independence – ‘failing Unionists to the core’.
Nothing New Labour I’m afraid – Another world is possible.
(Aye you lot live on another planet right enough)
That’s just randomised making it up as he goes along. Do I win a prize?
Nope, I’m drawing a total blank here.
Proof that coverage of the Red Tory conference is coming from an alternate reality.
Either that or the Russians/Chinese/Americans/French/ISIS (delete as appropriate) have developed an anti-truth serum which causes those injected with it to spout manifest untruths.
No other explanations are tenable.
Corbyn & MacDonnell need to understand that reports from their Scottish branch are as believable as their sole Scottish MP’s GEe5 voter contact reports.
Speaking to the Hall Mr McDonnell ?
Oh and another fact check Labour please. “Big increase in membership in Scotland”
What are the current numbers for Labour party membership of the Scottish Branch ?? (Not supporters / Affiliates … members)
Truth on that would be nice. (Sorry to be so sceptical).
That would be helpful
I know the Eagles had a hit with “Lying Eyes”.
Now the Labour Party are having miss after miss with “Lying Lips”.
I know the average SLAB coonsillor, MSP or MP has a head which buttons up the back, but, do they still think the Scottish electorate is daft enough to swallow their constant lying and re-writing of events and history?
IndyRef appears to have only taught Labour one lesson.
They have deduced that lying through their teeth, to those who still believe them, works! They probably believe they we massacred in the GE in Scotland because they didn’t tell enough lies.
Is there any other explanation?
It reminds me of the GWBush quote someone put up the other day …
“You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.”
By saying that the SNP voted against the living wage can only mean Osborne’s sleight of hand in his welfare austerity package. The one the Labour Shadow Cabinet abstained on.
The one Jeremy voted against along with the SNP.
John getting a fucking grip. Do you think we button up the back? You won’t win voters back by being a liar.
I hear his message: I hear lies. Labour is not anti austerity and trying to pretend they are left of SNP just makes them look depressing.
I suppose they have nothing to offer people like me: and so, in terms of votes, I have nothing to offer them either
I do not think I will vote labour even after independence: though I will vote for a left wing party should one emerge once we are independent
Same shit different face.
I can only conclude that Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell already know the outcome of the Alastair Carmichael case. It seems that ‘political’ lies are not just acceptable but now actually mandatory.
I guess young Kezia needed a fistful of new sound bites to shout out during interviews.
Come back to Labour; you idiots ?
Come back; for a smack ?
Come back to Labour – your nothing without us ?
Come back to Labour; we didn’t mean all that Tory stuff ?
The thing about SNP voting against “fair taxes in Scotland to spend on schools” is a reference to last Tuesday’s education debate in the Scottish Parliament, where the last bit of Iain Gray’s amendment called on the Scottish Government to commit to “an investment in additional literacy specialists in schools funded from a 50p top rate of Scottish income tax when power over income tax rates and bands becomes devolved.”
The SNP voted against the amendment.
The debate is here: link to scottish.parliament.uk
So he’s technically correct, but it’s a bit of a dishonest point to make.
“The SNP voted against the minimum wage” is a Labour meme like the SNP were in a Tory coalition 2007-11, the SNP privatised Scotrail and the SNP are privatising Calmac.
John McDonnell’s been listening to the same Labour in Scotland sources as Jeremy Corbyn.
The facts.
The SNP voted for the UK National Minimum Wage Bill on 16 Dec 1997 in Westminster and committed to a £7.45 Scottish Living Wage on 05/11/2012 for employees working in parts of the public sector under the Scottish Government’s pay policy.
Aren’t new Old Labour having such a fantastic couple of days of shamefully lying through their collective teeth about the SNP?
It seems they are all on message regarding Scotland. So, more abuse heaped upon our chosen representatives, what McDonnell and Corybyn refuse to understand is that they are attacking the party that the people of Scotland have trust in.
Out of touch, lying, double dealing turncoats, where’s yer Trident debate Corbyn? You’ve been elected on a false mandate…you certainly can fool most of the people most of the time, but not us.
I have to comment about Craig Murray’s comment on the previous thread regarding Corbyn ‘improving’. Seriously Craig?
The above clip confirms the direction of travel. This is not a ‘mistake’, there will be no amendments. This is full on SNP attack mode from the hierarchy of the newbies at the top of the Labour party at their party conference.
They’s just signed their suicide note to Scotland.
If this is them prepared to ‘work’ with the SNP, then I’d hate to see what ‘not working’ with them looks like. Fucking disgraceful shameless performances by both of them.
… Ah, another leftie pedalling pseudo economics to naive idealists that haven’t got a clue about the real world.
Its the “I want a better Britain, where the sick are healed, the poor become rich” (as opposed to all the other political parties, presumably, that want the sick to get sicker and the poor to get poorer), where there are no wars (presumably because the UK government will wave a magic wand over the whole of the middle east and make every Muslim believe in the same version of Islam) and where we, in the UK, via a leftie Government, will achieve something not achieved, anywhere in the world, ever!
If it wasn’t so serious, it would be laughable.
Ooohhh.
It’s gone awfully quiet from all those Corbyn supporters.
Labour are lying self serving Unionist gits.
End of.
Lying, boring basturts. Just watched the Tory, sorry, Labour Conference. I need tae lie doon noo. Cannae take ony merr.
Is there anyone left in Scotland still fooled by Corbynitis?
Nope Rev, I don’t recall any of these things happening either.
Mind you I am getting on a bit, and have the odd senior moment,but I hivnae lost my marbles yet.
We have to carry on with the job next May then, clear as many of them out as we can. They have to go as they are an obstacle to our country moving forward.
It all gets a bit wearing, constant lies is all Labour seem to have.
Just listened to John McTernan on Daily Politics doing a real hatchet job on McDonnell and Corbyn.
The Labour Party doesn’t need enemies when it’s got friends like McTernan. I assume that he is no longer employed in an capacity by the party, but has that ever been confirmed?
These all seem to be cases of the SNP voting down bill amendments put forward by Labour:
1) “against the living wage” – May 2014
S4M-12678.3 Neil Findlay: An End to In-work Poverty—As an amendment to motion S4M-12678 in the name of Patrick Harvie (An End to In-work Poverty), leave out from “recognises” to end and insert “notes that the Scottish Government’s own statistics show that, under the last Labour administration, the number of people in in-work poverty fell by 30,000 and the number in absolute poverty fell by over half a million; recognises that, since 2006-07, the number of people in in-work poverty has increased by 50,000; notes that 414,000 people across Scotland would benefit from Scottish Labour’s plans to extend the payment of the living wage, incentivising more businesses to pay the living wage by using Make Work Pay contracts and increasing the national minimum wage to £8; believes that these actions, alongside the banning of exploitative zero-hours contracts, will improve the lives of working people across Scotland, and calls on the Scottish Government to amend the Procurement Reform (Scotland) Act 2014 to extend the payment of the living wage to public sector contracts.”
2) “against capping rent levels” – May 2014
I haven’t yet found the amendment itself, but presumably refers to this, tabled by James Kelly: link to propertyindustryeye.com
3) “against fair taxes in Scotland to pay for schools” – September 2015
S4M-14311.2 Iain Gray: Building on Scotland’s Educational Success—As an amendment to motion S4M-14311 in the name of Angela Constance (Building on Scotland’s Educational Success), insert at end “; recognises that there are over 4,000 fewer teachers in Scottish schools than there were when the SNP administration came to power in 2007, class sizes are rising, over 6,000 pupils left primary school in 2014 with a poor standard of reading, the most deprived fifth of pupils in Scotland are half as likely to achieve one or more Highers and go on to higher education as the least deprived fifth and there are 140,000 fewer college students than in 2007; believes that Scotland must do much more to raise educational standards and close the attainment gap; supports an end to funding cuts for further education, and commits to an investment in additional literacy specialists in schools funded from a 50p top rate of Scottish income tax when power over income tax rates and bands becomes devolved.”
Disappointing, still wish them the best for winning 2020, as they are the best chance England has of any real change.
Outstanding.
Two days back to back disingenuous guff from Labour’s new leadership.
So much for a ‘new politics’. They haven’t changed in the slightest and frankly I doubt they ever will.
Well what do you know?
Corbyn spouting LIES yesterday and McDonnell carries on with the LIE spouting exercise today. WOW! I wonder who is next up on the LIE spouting exercise. Not only this but the Unions have exerted their force on Labour and ensured the conference does not debate Trident. Well I wonder who saw that particular train coming down the track? 😉
As others say, this new (old) bunch of Labour front benchers really need to stop listening to the Branch manager and start investigating the TRUTH for themselves.
Spouting Northern Branch LIES rather than the TRUTH will never assist them in regaining anything that Labour has lost in Scotland. In fact the longer they continue to be the Southern mouthpiece of the Northern Branch office then the less likely that Labour will survive in any form what so ever for much longer.
Karl Marx has “come back into fashion” is what John McDonnell said yesterday.
I always think it is interesting that our most noteable Scottish Communists and Marxists were, historically, people like McLean, who rose up from the humblest beginnings and did all they could for the poor. McLean believed staunchly in Scottish independence.
While in England it was the Cambridge Four, who were all privileged men from the same background as David Cameron and never seemed to spend a day thinking about the poor.
The referendum campaign showed that the UK system is bankrupt. So how can it be any other way in UKOK post-referendum politics? Can the British Labour Party change his skin, or the leopard his spots?
If only the interwebz worked in England Corbyn & McDonnell’s speechwriters would have been able to check the facts for themselves. Maybe we should set up a fundraiser to get England connected to the rest of the world?
Corbyn :
Like a cool Uncle who turns out to be an arse.
I would like to hear what people have to say about McTernan and his performance on today’s Daily Politics in particular his response to McDonnell’s speech.
Is the bold McT now on the BBC payroll and perhaps on the Tory one as well?
Fiona says:
28 September, 2015 at 12:49 pm
I hear his message: I hear lies. Labour is not anti austerity and trying to pretend they are left of SNP just makes them look depressing.
What? Total nonsense. Just because they are totally wrong about the SNP doesn’t make them rightwing. Unless your definition of leftwing is “exactly like the SNP” then by all actual definitons Corbyn and MacDonnel are left of the SNP. Ever hears the SNP say anything about nationalising anything?
New Labour leader same old Labour p*$h. Will they ever learn?
Labour don’t pay their staff minimum wage.
sensibledave says:
28 September, 2015 at 12:59 pm
… Ah, another leftie pedalling pseudo economics to naive idealists that haven’t got a clue about the real world.
Tad harsh there sensible. All these red tory Lab guys will do is pump tons of borrowed money into their country England, or rather the south east of their country England. The south of east of England gets richer and richer. Their regions like Scotland can shut up and like it.
Same ol same ol in red or blue tory teamGB sensible dave, but Scotland has had enough of this farce union and red/blue tory con artists trying to stop Scotland running Scotland.
Or maybe not, its up to you sensible:D
Love the wee plaque: Straight Talking – Honest Politics
Clearly an irony bypass in action happening there. 😀
[…] This is shadow Chancellor John McDonnell speaking to the Labour Party conference in Brighton just a few minutes ago (immediately prior to rather presumptuously inviting the Scottish electorate to “come home to Labour”): […]
On the issue of rent control the policy difference between the SNP and Labour is one of “what method to use”; not Labour good, SNP bad. Corbyn has declared in favour of recycling Milliband’s semi-discredited crude cap proposal. Actually I’m not clear what constitutes current Labour policy detail – no one is including Jeremy. Labour in Scotland sought to punt the cap into the Scotland (Housing) Bill.
As far as I’m aware the SNP position is nuanced and considered, favouring controls rather than capping, longer leases, and end to no-reason evictions etc. All of which I understand is favoured by Shelter – our largest homeless charity (they do not favour Labour’s typically simplistic approach). This should be considered in the context of the SNP’s twin commitments to ending right-to-buy and social rented/Council building programme.
Three conclusions can be drawn. One, the SNP is committed to a panoply of socially responsible and citizen-first housing policies and are in a position to actually implement ideas rather than spout rhetoric. Two, Labour are back playing to the gallery, talking utter mince on this and other issues that they cannot and will not implement (the contradictions on their housing policy include making life as easy as possible for huge developers in England). Three, Labour and SNP policy positions on housing have hee-haw to do with austerity. A very poor oratory from McDonnell poorly delivered.
Well labour has come home to rest, in the shithole they created, where they seem most comfortable.
Corbyn is a damp squibb, the party is no different than the last few that we have suffered from.
We really need to knock them out completely in the 2016 elections, they really deserve it, they are useless, particularly so in Scotland.They still believe that they can rule Scotland as they did in years of old.
They need their rewards and in 2016 they will get what they deserve. Has been’s.
We seriously need an independent broadcaster here in Scotland. AND a written constitution, devised by and written by the people of Scotland.
Independence will never be achieved while the electorate are fed unchallenged lies by the arse-greasers of the union.
Just realised the social comment by Stephen Moffat on the most recent Dr Who episode. Clara sat in a Dalek and changed everything she said to “I am a Dalek”. Looks like Labour are all in their equivalent of Dalek suits and their translator is changing everything they say to “SNP BAD”.
When is Labour party bringing in the Truth Commission lol.
I think it is clear that Fats McDougall, Dugdale and Murray have been briefing Corbyn and McDonnell and they have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. You can just imagine those three amigos laughing in a corner to themselves and each other at the Labour Party conference about how clever they have been. They clearly are ripping the piss out of Corbyn.
The fools have opened a second front for their party, the Tories against them in England, and the SNP in Scotland, while Labour`s right wing plot and undermine Corbyn. They were never going to support an alliance with the SNP, and in the manner of the second question in the refereendum, they have publicly thrown it back in the SNP`s face, making themselves look petty, arrogant and childish at the same time. The clowns in SLAB do not care one iota about their own party, only their careers matter.
This is simply the UK Labour Party getting sucked into the pit of loathing of the SNP the Scottish party has wallowed in for years. A lot of good it has done them.
I think he’s spinning the fact the Snp voted against the Welfare Bill which had that ludicrous living wage promise within it. The Morning Star also had something in about Scotgov not increasing living wage for some but there was some legal impediment to it. So without the context his comments are mischievous.
Labour liars will be wiped out May/16/17. Young folk and the majority don’t like them. A lost cause.
Total population of Catalonia 7.5Million+ (men, women and children + foreigners living there). Only 5.5Million have the vote. (EU citizens have the vote in EU and municipal elections not in National or regional ones. Turn out 77.44%
2Million? people are left out of the Ref vote. A majority do not vote for Ref on Independence or Independence in Catalonia. There is a limited franchise.
The Scottish Independence Movement is far more successful.
They will keep doing this. Keep chipping away. Lie, lie and lie again, and hopefully enough people will believe it. It’s the only thing they have left.
UK labour are now – not only cowards but pathological liars. And actually think that their shit don’t stink. They also think that the Scottish electorate are mushrooms. Living in the dark and living on the shit they shovel.
They contempt they have for the Scottish electorate is breathtaking.
Cut the old boy some slack. There’s a full moon tonight. He’s clearly used to barking at it so you can hardly blame him for barking at the electorate too.
Ahem.
link to labourlist.org
Dear Mr McDonnell
Google is your friend
link to news.scotland.gov.uk
I’m not angry, I’m just disappointed. Meet the new team, same as the old team.
Keep it up boys, and you’ll lose Scotland forever in more ways than one.
Could someone give an indication of what McDonnell has said for those of us who can’t play videos?
Thanks – Chris
Assuming my first response gets through moderation… the third vote McDonnell’s talking bout is Amendment 49 of the 2014 Scottish Housing Bill.
Report here: link to scottish.parliament.uk (search for “amendment 49”).
However, I can’t find the wording of the amendment itself. Presumably, similar to the other two, it was a paragraph full of SNP-bashing with a policy suggestion thrown in at the end. scottish,parliament.gov.uk just says: “Amendment 49 moved by James Kelly on motion S4M-10438 Margaret Burgess: Housing (Scotland) Bill.”, without giving the wording.
Lets be clear, this bunch of lying Lab cnuts are no different from the last lot. Lets get rid of them all 2016.
That’s it…pull up the drawbridge on the left, give them no favours.
Straight talking, Honest politics? HOHOHO then i remembered it was the labour liars! Go home McDonnell no one in Scotland is listening to your bullshit just like Corbyn yesterday.
Cathy Come Home tae labour. Cathy,s no buying it lol.
I think he’s spinning the fact the Snp voted against the Welfare Bill which had that ludicrous living wage promise within it.
I think so too which is utterly disappointing. I thought we might see some decent politics from Corbyn and McDonnell. They have obviously been infected with same shabby Mandelson Blair spin shite that rotted New Labour from within.
Very sad.
Fuck those lying red tory barstewards.
They now have the fucking cheek to lie that they are the only party against austerity, abstain, abstain, abstain, that is their modus operandi.
Labour is dead in Scotland and lying about the SNP is not going to resurrect you, so fuck you Corbyn, fuck you McDonell and fuck you Dogdale.
[…] Things we don’t remember […]
@CameronB Brodie
A little paraphrasing?
“In a way, the world view of the Labour Party imposed itself most successfully on Scottish people incapable of understanding it.” CIRCA 1984
Lying scumbag. That’s about â good ás one can say.
A week of the new regime and Tridents off the list, the shadow chancellor supports the Tory budget, Labour claim the SNP privatised British Rail in 1983, ditto they claim that the SNP privatised CalMac.
Perfidious lying bastatds. Nothing changes and Corbyn is just more of the same.
No Labour wrong yet again #labourfail
If SNP doesn’t support the Living Wage-explain why they currently have an ongoing campaign to get employers to sign up to paying all staff at least the Living Wage.You know-the same one they have in London punted by the Evening Standard week after week-the one Boris takes credit for.
SNP’s original target was 300 employers, that was exceeded so now the stretched target is 500 employers.
green_pedant says:
What? Total nonsense. Just because they are totally wrong about the SNP doesn’t make them rightwing. Unless your definition of leftwing is “exactly like the SNP” then by all actual definitons Corbyn and MacDonnel are left of the SNP. Ever hears the SNP say anything about nationalising anything?
As with many Labour adherents green_pedant confuses Labour’s empty rhetoric with its recorded action. The accusation that the SNP would cut corporation tax (when they didn’t, and in fact couldn’t) when in fact Labour cut CP by 5%, is a case in point.
I could cite other documented issues of Labour’s deliberate mendacity, but Labour now talking about nationalizing things I think will be as reliable as their promise to debate Trident at this conference.
PS Political Compass is a good indicator of where the parties actually sit. You should Google it.
This new old Labour has, in a space of a day, just blown any outside chance it had in regaining support in Scotland.
It’s the unionist big lie, project fear all over again. Tories must love seeing Labour doing its dirty work again.
Look on the bright side guys, we don’t need to find a new derogatory name for them … RED TORY will continue to do just fine 😉
heedtracker says:
28 September, 2015 at 1:11 pm
sensibledave says:
28 September, 2015 at 12:59 pm
… Ah, another leftie pedalling pseudo economics to naive idealists that haven’t got a clue about the real world.
If it makes you feel any bettertogether sensible, BBC Scotland lunchtime news just boosted the above New New Labour pack of lies to high vote SLab or else heaven, with all the UKOK vigour that BBC shysters can muster.
Presumably BBC Scotland are trying to at least hold on to SLab seats Holyrood next May elections sensibledave, but either way its going to be a fascinating test of BBC propaganda in their Scotland region.
As you probably know, they all did really badly last May general election but they say it was all only SLabour “performing badly” and not an actual end of era wipe out, just a temp blip on SLabour’s eternal right to reign over their Scotland region.
Time and relentless BBC SNP bad/vote SLab or else propaganda with tell sensibledave.
PS sensibledave, you’d have loved the bit there with the BBC con artist trying to suggest that SLab are devolved over Trident too, indy for SLab, debate Trident conference? nae chance!
whatever next.
McTernan on Daily Politics was just remarkable. He actively hates the leadership of the party, is amazingly enthusiastic about nuclear missiles and openly hostile to democracy.
His best moment though was to say “you take your party from 30% to 25% and you lose your legitimacy.” You’d think he might heed his own advice after his stellar advice to Saint Jim of Eastwood.
@ Green Pedant.
As it happens I don’t think the SNP is a left wing party either. That is quite explicit in my post. However the current labour party has signed up to deficit reduction, just like the SNP. They have not yet voted against welfare cuts or against trident, so on the small spectrum of social democratic parties they are not at all demonstrably left of the SNP: who do not have the power to nationalise, and do not say more than their prayers
Pam McMahon says:
28 September, 2015 at 1:17 pm
We seriously need an independent broadcaster here in Scotland. AND a written constitution, devised by and written by the people of Scotland.
Independence will never be achieved while the electorate are fed unchallenged lies by the arse-greasers of the union.
I believe we already have a written constitution Pam although I grant you it could do with updating. 😉
link to constitution.org
To be honest Pam if this was good enough for the Americans to use as the basis for their written constitution in 1789, and is recognised as the oldest written constitution in the world, then it is good enough for us to maintain and update in the simplistic view of this village idiot. 😀
This lot are just as rotten as the previous lot led by Milliband, just another bunch of con-artists and chancers, red tories mk2.
ronnie anderson says: at 1:34 pm
Cathy Come Home tae labour. Cathy,s no buying it lol.
And neither are the rest of us Ronnie.
Was reading Mhari Blacks column in the National on Saturday, she also says that since Corbyn was elected she has been getting emails and texts asking when are you coming hame to Labour. 😕
Oor Mhari goes on to explain in detail the reasons why she and many others will not ‘be comin hame ta labour’ever.
Cause unlike the red tories the lassie actually has
PRINCIPLES. 🙂
How to win back YES voters by Ian Murray
Pointing to a press release he said was issued by the SNP, outlining the shortcomings of the Scotland Bill, Murray said: “It says we might need to have another referendum. Conference, I won’t let that happen.”
link to thenational.scot
How democratic when latest opinion polls suggest that a large majority of Scots believe that there will be another referendum sooner rather than later.
Yet more spin.. poor effort..
‘New Old’ Labour leader and deputy, in two days have lost the plot..
…waiting for the fat lady to sing fairly soon…
It seems the Red Tories have, like their Blue Tory chums, given up on Scotland. Otherwise why all the lying.
“Labour ‘will make Google, Starbucks and Amazon pay fair tax share’
Shadow chancellor John McDonnell lays out plans to cut deficit by targeting corporate tax avoidance and increasing taxes on rich”
Big lunchtime header from red tory The Graun there. Begs questions like why they didn’t properly tax Google, Starbucks and Amazon, when they were actually in red tory office for a Gordon “Loon” Brownian generation of UKOK fiscal prudence, what might have paid for at least some of the great Labour wars in hot countries, just far enough away to strike back?
Graun don’t ask that.
corbyn and mcdonnell have fallen in my estimation since seizing power in labour.
1. They are ditching deeply held beliefs they were elected on
2. Accepting lies from dugdale and murray as truth an repeating, without checking
3. Are prepared to sign up to osborne’s budget controls
4. Have maintained appointment of non elected lords to his shadow cabinet
5. Are back to SNP bad and how we better get back to London rule as soon as possible
One question I’d ask this pair is why is the country of Scotland different from that of Ireland?
“where there are no wars (presumably because the UK government will wave a magic wand over the whole of the middle east and make every Muslim believe in the same version of Islam)”
I get that there will still be wars in the Middle East. I don’t see why we have to be involved in them.
galamcennalath
Old or New, British Labour just can’t help being English Socialists. English imperialists intent on exploiting Scotland’s natural wealth to support oligarchical collectivism in a One Nation Britain.
@ New Old British Labour
This is the 21st century and time has run out for Ingsoc in Scotland.
DougtheDug says: 28 September, 2015 at 12:56 pm:
” … John McDonnell’s been listening to the same Labour in Scotland sources as Jeremy Corbyn.”
Yes, Dougthedug, Labour’s, “Hecht Heid Ains”, are now spouting the same, “Labour in Scotland”, mantras that saw Labour in Scotland MPs all but wiped out in the recent GE.
Now why would the Labour’s new Leaders do that?
Two possible answers are –
They just don’t know the true facts and have been misled by their already failed Scottish Branch office.
They know the facts and want shot of their Scottih Branch Office.
Think carefully, London Labour. Your branch office in Scotland has just presided over its worst electoral defeat in 80 years. This is on top of a long-term decline, a rot that started decades ago. They really haven’t a Scooby.
Now think about it, please. Is it really wise to take their advice? 🙁
Dan Huil says:
28 September, 2015 at 1:57 pm
It seems the Red Tories have, like their Blue Tory chums, given up on Scotland. Otherwise why all the lying.
Or, it may just be that they are incredibly ignorant about what is really going on up here. Someone in the branch office is telling them what they want to hear.
What Osbourne called the ‘living wage’ in the Welfare Bill is not recognised by the Living Wage Foundation. Osbourne’s ‘living wage’ is based on ‘what the market can bear’ i.e. what’s OK for the employer, the Living Wage Foundation ‘living wage’ is based on the cost of living.
We have to stop repeating his lie or it will become the truth. Call it what it is ‘an increased minimum wage’.
He can get away with this because it is a speech and no questions or analysis will follow. No immediate right of reply.
It’s the tactic Brown used during the referendum.
Dear Kezia Dugdale,
The lies from your leader on TV this weekend about the Scottish Government privatising railways (something that is wholly reserved to Westminster), and privatising Calamc (it isn’t), combined with these ludicrous twisting of facts by John McDonnell today, are why people in Scotland don’t vote Labour.
Since 2007 it has been freaking obvious to anybody with half a brain, that the Scottish electorate see right through Labour’s lying. It doesn’t work anymore.
Your party, Labour, will have zero success in Scotland, until it stops telling bare faced lies, which have been debunked a zillion (maybe even a squillion eh rev? :)) times.
I just don’t understand why your party feels such a compulsion to repeatedly lie about ,and to, Scotland.
Come back to Labour? I thinketh not.
Yours,
A ‘leftie’ YES voter.
Apologies, was supposed to say ‘get tellt’, doh!
sensibledave
“… Ah, another leftie pedalling pseudo economics to naive idealists that haven’t got a clue about the real world.
Its the “I want a better Britain, where the sick are healed, the poor become rich” (as opposed to all the other political parties, presumably, that want the sick to get sicker and the poor to get poorer), where there are no wars (presumably because the UK government will wave a magic wand over the whole of the middle east and make every Muslim believe in the same version of Islam) and where we, in the UK, via a leftie Government, will achieve something not achieved, anywhere in the world, ever!
If it wasn’t so serious, it would be laughable.”
Your post is the opposite of sensible. And it’s pointless, as well.
I suspect that someone has had a word in their ear.
Basically, if you want to survive at least until Christmas, then toe the Establishment (Tory) line.
So repeat after me;
SNP Bad
SNP Bad (reprise)
Labour believe in Austerity
Labour believe in Trident
Labour believe in another Middle East War
Labour believe London is the centre of the Universe
Scotland is subservient to London
Scotland know your place and start touching your forelock or else
I’m confused. I thought John Major was a Tory and had retired from front line politics.
@ Gus1940, 1:08pm
Was he ever not on the Tory payroll? 😉 Labour/Tory, two faces of the same coin.
As for Corbyn and McDonnell, truth is abandoned for lies and spin in an effort to gain Labour votes. These people want to achieve the highest positions in government and have been in Westminster for many years. There is therefore no excuse for not knowing who privatised rail, EU regulations on tendering, nor even Scottish issues like college funding, etc., etc., erego they are not mistaken, they are either inept, lying or both.
Les Wilson says:
28 September, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Corbyn is a damp squibb,..
That is probably the most accurate description I have read thus far. 🙂
Those sane people not on twitter, deserve to see this from the Rev’s twitter feed;
@green_pedant says: 28 September, 2015 at 1:08 pm:
” … Ever hears the SNP say anything about nationalising anything?”
Yes, green_pedant, Indeed I have heard, read and viewed quite a lot on that score.
However, here’s the logical thing about all this nationalisation debate. It is not yet within the SG’s, (not necessarily the SNP’s), remit to nationalise anything. How could it, when we are, as yet, not an independent nation?
Let us make no mistake, Labour HQ are well aware over what has happened in Scotland, the problem is their are in denial.
They did nothing wrong, so how come the SNP have done so well, across the board? The answer is that they do not know how to deal with many problems the caused. PFI being but one. A mess was left, that will take many years to put right.
They have no answers to Scottish events, so it is easy for them to say the SNP are constantly at fault.It is easier than to admit their ownership of many of the long term problems of Scotland.
The last thing Scotland needs is more Labour party.
Do not expect change from them.
I can only conclude that in order to be a Labour MP you must have to be mentally ill.
Conversation between Scottish Labour and Scottish media:
“OK Kezia, get John McDonnell to give us a ten second sound bite of SNP bad and we’ll do the rest”.
And if your looking for proof that this conversation took place, just listen to today’s news bulletins on BBC Scotland and STV.
@Robert Louis
Ooft!
That letter should also be posted to the branch office. 🙂
Further apologies to anyone wondering what my correction to a post that didn’t show is doing in the thread, please forgive my newbie posters errors…I posted with a link but wasn’t sure it would show since I’ve read some posts saying there are unusual ways and means of posting links on wings, anyone steer me right?
If you called John McTernan a “Red Tory”, he would actually take that as a compliment.
An interesting read and a wee remider of as real socialist and fighter for social justice.
A lifelong pacifist Hardie was vilified for his opposition to the first world war within parliment and by his labour collegues.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Colleges had a budget of more than £580 million in 2013-14. The amount they get from the Scottish government fell 12 per cent in real terms over two years.
Between 2011 and 2014, the number of separate institutions fell from 37 to 20 through a series of mergers while the number of staff fell by 9 per cent.
The SNP government cuts education, then blames the Cameron government for its own mishandling of education.
I think it amazing how convincing JaBa is as Corbyn and McDonnell and still manages to tell her lies as well. If she could add ventriloquism she’ld get her own TV series.
Just been chatting with some people, and it occurred to us, that Corbyn telling lies about the Scottish Government at the weekend was probably no accident. Just remember, the vast majority of Labour MP’s at Westminster, do not want him as leader.
The only question remaining then is this, who in Westminster briefed him??
I fully expect a book in two years time, titled ‘Jeremy Corbyn and my part in his downfall’, by John Mc…… I’ll let you fill in the blanks.
Mind you still no excuse regarding rail privatisation, I mean seriously, what MP doesn’t know simple things like that.
I’ve got lots and lots of respect and admiration for Keir Hardie. But oh my god. He must be spinning in his grave and the state of the Labour Party.
“Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has told his party’s conference that voters in Scotland who are against austerity should “come home to Labour”.”
I’m flabbergasted by this man’s assumption that ex-Labour people should return to what is Labour’s Divine Right to Scotland’s support and perpetual voting fodder.
No.No.No.
Will Podmore says:
The SNP government cuts education, then blames the Cameron government for its own mishandling of education.
If that is another bettertogether fact willpodmore, you need to show us. But you wont will you. Britnats never do.
And cue vote Slab britnats piling in with their tragic loss of life of elderly lady or the M8 tragedy, all means vote NO or else Scotland.
What a horrific way to BBC britnat campaign.
handclapping says: at 2:37 pm
I think it amazing how convincing JaBa is as Corbyn and McDonnell and still manages to tell her lies as well. If she could add ventriloquism she’ld get her own TV series.
Hats off Handclapping that made me laugh out loud. 🙂
Just a wee bit off topic here folks.
As we all can clearly remember the 19th of September 2014 was a fantastic night and there was champagne flowing all night and not one isolated incident of violence occured … apparently. Well at least that was the rose tinted view of dear old BBC at any rate. Well guess what folks. 😉
link to bbc.co.uk
link to news.stv.tv
I may be wrong here but I’m thinking that a certain broadcaster was trying to pull the wool over our eyes last year. 😀
Will Podmore
Your not the prettiest Tory cheerleader I’ve seen but your certainly the most entertaining. “Four legs good, two legs better!”, eh Comrade?
What McDonnell meant to say was:
‘So here’s my message to the people of Scotland: Labour voted in favour of the Tory’s austerity cuts. Labour is now the only party which is willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Tories in support of the Tory’s £30 billion sanctions against the poorest and weakest in our society.’
“STRAIGHT TALKING HONEST POLITICS”
says the wee sign on the podium in front of mr McDonald.
Alice in wonderland ain’t in it. LABOUR HAS FALLEN INTO THE RABIT HOLE, AND THE SLAB DANGLE BERRIES ARE HANGING ON FOR GRIM DEATH.
The “GREAT ENGLISH SCIPT” was written by HansChristian Anderson. The proud Scots but’s are chasing the dangle berries. Aye bitter the GITHER!
You really couldn’t make this shit up. Only the ENGLISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION CAN SAY ALL THIS WITH A STRAIGHT FACE. O AND ANDREW NEIL.
@ Jon Buchanan 2.33 Dont post links with (http) attached WordPress will filter them out.
O/T
Has anyone heard of any information regarding the well-being of Louisa Sewell?
She has been in the back of my mind for a while now and I haven’t been able to find out anything myself.
Blatant punt for Wee Ginger Dugs Book Launch YES bar Drury St Glasgow at 7pm tonight volume 1&2 £22 .
That John McDonnell reminds me of Rigsby,(actor Leonard Rossiter)from Rising Damp fame.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
This is nice for rancid The Graun liars
link to theguardian.com
“Is Jeremy Corbyn one of those inspirational headteachers you hear so much about? A man who may appear shambolic but who actually knows the name of every pupil and is in the business of Educating England, individual by individual? Here is the new boss, and some lazy, unpopular teachers are forced to seek shelter, while a bunch of surly pupils are slowly charmed into not just behaving, but behaving well.”
He’s just another lying bastard, not that they’d know one if they saw one at rancid The Graun.
Lesley-Anne 14:52
I shall keep a watchful eye on the next list of ‘Members of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire’.
They clearly have the potential following in the country, but instead of a bold change of direction, it’s just “same old, same old…” Same old “New ‘Labour'”, what cowards, and what a disappointment for the English. There’s no escape for them now poor sods.
So that’s ‘Labour’ finished in Scotland. If their lips are moving they’re almost certainly lying. What a sad ending to a once principled movement.
O/T
Ronnie Anderson
Hope your night out went to plan on Saturday and everyone went away a lot wiser than they were before they went in.
Has anyone got any pics or vids from the night?
I agree with John McDonnell – the SNP being advertised as left-wing is one of the biggest cons in UK politics. They are not a socialist party – they support a mixed market economy and have a track record of privatisation, a council tax freeze (benefiting the middle-class) and cuts to public services. Even Tommy Sheridan has stated they are nothing more than a vehicle for independence. The SNP talk left-wing but act very different.
As a socialist I have far more in common with Corbyn and McDonnell than Sturgeon who supports a mixed market economy. SNP supporters cannot honestly believe their party is more left-wing than Corbyn.
“I agree with John McDonnell – the SNP being advertised as left-wing is one of the biggest cons in UK politics. They are not a socialist party – they support a mixed market economy”
I have some really bad news for you about Labour.
(The SNP has never claimed to be “a socialist party”, BTW.)
Finlay says:
28 September, 2015 at 3:08 pm
Lesley-Anne 14:52
I shall keep a watchful eye on the next list of ‘Members of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire’.
I am certain that you will NOT be disappointed with what you read about the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire then Finlay. 😀
Corbyn and McDonnell’s opening salvo against SNP misses the mark, factually and tactically.
Corbyn’s Scottish problem is manifold. On one hand, he had a good reception among Scottish Labour activists. Many of them supported Corbyn in the UK-wide Labour Party leadership race in order to win back voters who had shifted loyalty to the SNP. Owen Jones asserted that only a strongly left-wing UK Labour Party can thwart the SNP. Because the SNP must be thwarted, natch. If you disagree you’re Adolf Mugabe.
On the other hand, it’s simply a cold hard fact that the SNP representation in Westminster is Corbyn’s most likely source of allies on key votes. Opposition to the Trident nuclear weapons system is mainstream in Scotland and is a key policy of the SNP. At a time when Labour’s right wing sect is openly plotting the downfall of Corbyn and McDonnell, their rough wooing of Scottish left-wing voters risks alienating some of their few potential allies.
They should take a hint. The SNP has shown a willingness to work with them; the Blairites have done the opposite. Convincing the latter that they’d be a useful weapon against the former is a fool’s errand and just plain dumb. Rewarding enemies and punishing allies never works out.
It’s also the simple blunt truth that Scottish voters agree with the SNP on constitutional issues (c. 50% favouring full independence, yet more supporting maximum autonomy within the UK) and do not share Scottish Labour activists’ bizarre tribalistic hatred of the SNP. They have been following Scottish politics for years and know that Corbyn’s talking points are pure nonsense.
Scottish Labour has degenerated into a Tartan GOP and Corbyn can’t help it if he continues to prop up its old, failed approach. It can change for the better, but English Labour continually indulging its hatred of the SNP won’t allow it to do so.
Frankly, a split between English Labour and Scottish Labour is long overdue. The political debates in the two countries have become increasingly divergent. The quaint nostalgic image of a unified, unifying Great British Labour Party needs to be abandoned if the new leaders of Labour are serious about charting a new course.
If Kezia Dugdale thinks of herself as the boss, they should let her be the boss. That way she could fight her own battles and not drag English Labour into unnecessarily burning bridges with the SNP.
A split would be against the interests of those Labourites who see Corbynism as an anti-SNP weapon, but if Corbynites think they only need to make a few crude, factually challenged attacks on the SNP to win Scottish support, then they’re simply dumb as shit and deserve to lose.
Lesley_Anne 14.52pm
Re: George Sq 19th Sept 2014.
Makes my blood boil every time these scumbags get a mention. I witnessed it first hand that night and the disgust I have for that lot never diminishes.
GRRRRRRRRRRR!
I think what this points to is that there are various modes of Unionism that can be deployed to keep a lid on Scotlnd’s aspirations. The other day I heard Corbyn use the old ‘people in Glasgow just like people in Bristol’ ploy.
Tory Unionism tends to be of the ‘We own you/know your place’ variety. Labour style Unionism tends to be of the ‘but we’re all the same, comrades’ variety, but carries with it the crucial subtext ‘but some animals are more equal than others’. Which, at the end of the day, still translates as ‘We own you/know your place’.
caz-m says:
28 September, 2015 at 3:21 pm
Lesley_Anne 14.52pm
Re: George Sq 19th Sept 2014.
Makes my blood boil every time these scumbags get a mention. I witnessed it first hand that night and the disgust I have for that lot never diminishes.
GRRRRRRRRRRR!
I have to disagree, slightly, with you here caz. Scumbags do actually have their uses … apparently. 😀
The *ahem* individuals you refer to have absolutely no use what so ever to any one … other than to bring disgrace to Scotland! GRRRRRRRRRR!
@ronnie anderson 2.56
thank ya kindly sir, hopefully get it right this time…
…so when McDonnell says the SNP voted against a living wage, then later in his speech slates Osborne for postulating a living wage which really wasn’t, anyone with any experience in speechwriting(on reading the full speech (apologies, first link I found to the full text,
://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/john-mcdonnells-speech-to-the-labour-partys-annual-conference/ )
…the whole Scotland/SNP part is so obviously shoe-horned in, an afterthought, clearly advised/dictated by someone other than the primary speechwriter!
Note to conference/Mr Corbyn’s team, if you want to persist with the strap line ‘Straight Talking Honest Politics’ and support your Branch Manager of Labour in Scotland as she plots their own further demise at Holyrood 2016 and beyond, perhaps retaining a little of the integrity of that strap line (and I say this as someone whose day job is in branding/design), you could do far worse than stopping listening to the horse manure your clearly being shovelled and listen to this guy, getting the remnants of McTiernan’s Blairite chums in the Aussie Labour Party with ‘the bell’ tellt…now I’m pretty sure most Scots would call this ‘Straight Talking Honest Politics’…
://youtu.be/tivMSBmzIWI
Que??? what did I miss?
I think you need to remember to also remove the colon (:) and two slash marks (//) Jon.
blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/john-mcdonnells-speech-to-the-labour-partys-annual-conference/ )
youtu.be/tivMSBmzIWI
Absolutely breathtaking.
You have to hand it to Labour. They simply soar above all else when it comes to sheer bare faced unashamed lying.
Quite stunning.
What the Labour party in Scotland should do is to commission a genuine opinion finding poll, rather than one trying to get the answers they want people to give. The poll should make it clear it’s commissioned on behalf od the Labour party in Scotland. One of the questions should be:
Q. A lot of people stopped voting Labour and we’d like to know why. You can answer YES to more than one option. Was it because:
1). You think the SNP or better represent your views? Or another party?
2). Was it because you think Labour are too much like the Tories?
3). Because Labour are negative and don’t have a positive vision for Scotland?
4). Because Labour spend all our time attacking the SNP?
5). Because the Labur party is more interested in the UK than Scotland?
6). Because of our stance on Independence?
So far Corbyn and McDonnell are just “SNP Bad”, they’re as bad as Scottish Labour were in the run up to the 2011 Holyrood Election, but this time it’s not just the Labour Party in Scotland, it’s the Labour party in the UK. They’re getting worse, not better.
Oops! 😉
Sorry Jon. your first link should keep the full link in i.e the http:// part should remain part of your link as you are linking to a site.
link to blogs.spectator.co.uk
Jon Buchanan
I tend to post links as they appear, apart from youtube, which you need to delete all characters before the www (wordpress will replace). ‘Mobile’ youtube links are weird though and I’ve not figured them out yet.
@Lesley-Anne 3.40
Thank ya kindly too, blundering through here, doh! hopefully your post is close enough to mine for anyone interested enough to click the links, the Joe McDonald one almost had this grown man in tears, I don’t mind admitting, subject close to my heart though!
Captain Corbin and first mate o Donnelly set the good ship red Tory full steam ahead for the rocks.
In March 2015, Ed Miliband’s office dismissed the SNP’s demand to have a higher minimum wage as part of a deal with Labour as “Westminster games” and said he will “not negotiate” on any issue.
Sorry if this is repeated gremlins at Wings site
@CameronB Brodie 3.52
Thanks Cameron, heading home in a bit, might repost the YouTube link for anyone who hasn’t seen it, it’s a doozy, or anyone can just search for Joe McDonald I’m Doing This For My Mother, if they want to see straight talking, honest politics clamping red Tories with aplomb!
A little thought strikes me. The big Labour party in the UK spends so much time talking about the SNP and Scotland that, hey, we must be important after all. Which means we’re not an insignificant largely uninhabited wasteland at the north of North Britain, or Jockland as it’s commonly known by common twits.
It would be good if the 4.1 million voters + new ones on the way, got that message and gathered confidence in ourselves, our own future to take charge of.
(Hope this isn’t a repeat, “forbidden” message on the php first attempt)
The Dog Philosopher @ 3:22pm
I think that’s a pretty accurate summary of the role British Labour has played throughout the 20th century – providing working class leaders to work towards a ‘One Nation Britain’, a concept first coined by Tory PM, Benjamin Disraeli, who some consider to be the grandfather of Fascism and Zionism.
Well there is certainly one thing Jon that Joe can NEVER be accused of and that is NOT speaking from the heart. As you say it is a real doozy of a speech, short but still one hell of a doozy! 😀
This pretty much secures IndyRef 2, and a Yes vote. Labour are done. There was a chance of a comeback in Scotland, and had they shown reasonable competence, could have done something with the missing millions of voters in England, but their actions so far illustrate clowns with no comprehension of how to win votes.
Corbyn will be out the door within a year or two, and New Labour will be back in control. And with that, goodbye Scotland.
OK, we get it. There’s a pattern here. “SNP Bad” is back, badder than ever.
Thanx mostly to Stu for digging it out.
But what disturbing is the lack of push back coming from Mr. Sturgeon.
These day-late-and-a-dollar-short press releases coming out of the SNP bunker don’t cut it.
Where’s the truth squad pumping out on-the-hour-every-hour responses to the smears and lies? Where’s the shock and awe? Where’s the energy?
Time to kick some butt in the SNP press office. Fight fire with fire.
When a blogger from Bath consistently beats you to the punch there’s a problem. Big time.
I’m thinking about the future of the BBC and its staff in Scotland, and that of the likes of the Herald. It’s abundantly clear to them that the SNP are popular, 50% up to 62% popular support, and likewise for Indy at 48% to 55%.
If they continue to back the losing side, they’re going to continue to lose. But backing the “winning side” also doesn’t do them any good, it it becomes the losing side.
The answer is as plain as the nose on “that politics guy”. Go balanced – and accurate. Report the news in the reporting sections / program, no screaming headline, no spin, no falsification, no suppression of news that doesn’t suit the agenda.
I look forward to it, as probably would, 4.1 million voters in Scotland.
@jim mcintosh.
It is not even an increased minimum wage, it is a new minimum wage for over 25’s…..
Oh wait, not true either….it is an excuse to scrap Working tax credits.
The nay much mentioned factor in this is the almost halving of the allowed earnings.
Those over 25 get a wee bit extra wages but lose out on tax credits.
What about those under 25’s who DO NOT get the extra hourly increase but still lose half their allowed earnings limit (and any housing benefits)?
Those folk are utterly screwed.
Just for a bit of a laugh folks. 😀
link to youtube.com
Alberta…Ms Sturgeon, this:
And the SNP doesn’t get the coverage on BBC/STV regardless of the lies that are published and broadcast daily in the UK. Doesn’t matter how many press releases they do…it will not be placed in any kind of prominent position on the day and will be given a 10 second interrupted spot on STV or BBC…blink and it’s gone reporting on their ‘Scottish’ news programmes.
WOS is the Media in Scotland. (Himself living in Bath, ain’t the issue, His heart lives in Scotland).
Have Labour at any point during their con con got around to actually attacking the Tories or is that a stupid question?
All I am hearing from them is SNP wicked bad and evil and Scots stupid coming out of their mouths.
Oh and I couldn’t fail to notice the dripping hatred in the Brit Nat Media about that Catalonia vote.
Apologies if I over “oinked” my last post folks. 😀
Lesley-Anne
I recall my father telling me when I was a young(er) boy that my grandfather, a fisherman stationed aboard an armed trawler in WW2, dropped a depth charge at minimum depth as a last resort to stop a German U-Boat from slipping through the convey’s defences to potentially torpedo one of the larger supply ships or destroyer classes.
The depth charge blew off my grandfather’s own rudder and seemingly sunk the U-Boat. He was awarded a medal for sinking the enemy ship which he refused to accept on the grounds that he would not seek to be rewarded for killing a fellow man.
That story has stuck in my memory since I was a bairn and is perhaps part of the reason why awards granted by the British Empire rather repulse me.
British violence is virtuous violence and non-British violence is barbarism?
The Empire seems to think so.
@Chris Baxter 4:07pm
Right. I fully expect that Scottish Labour’s inevitably underwhelming performance in the 2016 Scottish election will be used by the Blairites as a pretext to force Corbyn out.
I’ll probably vote for Sadiq Khan in the London mayoral race but I can tell that a lot of my neighbours would be won over by Zac Goldsmith. If the Tories win the mayoralty again, Labour’s left wing is fucked.
Corbyn and his backers are extremely foolish for risking their “Drang nach links” on a chimaeric Scottish recovery. It seems that the political left here in England are still paranoid of actually doing what you (and Stu Campbell) have suggested in appealing to disillusioned English people. They’d rather secure a Scottish bloc vote by any means, put their fingers in their ears, and prattle on about nonexistent British unity.
I liked Greg Moodies take on Kezia’s visit to conference today
Worth a wee read 🙂
Lesley-Anne
You swine. 😉
Monkey Rimshot
link to youtube.com
Aye Finlay.
The *ahem* establishment do seem rather gleeful at awarding medals to people for killing their fellow man. The establishment seem to need to do this on the grounds that it shows the *cough* empire is better than the other lot.
Sorry a wee bit off topic. But this should be plastered over every media in UK. Only 12,000 children leave primary school ????in Scotland!
According to SLAB branch manager Dugdale last week ‘half of Scottish children leave Primary school ???? unable to read’.
This week she said 6,000 children leave Primary unable to read.
This is astonishing and unbelievable, showing that most Scots children do not complete a Primary education.
Kaz must bring this up at FMQ’s. I for one would like to know why only 12,000 children finish ???? their primary education.
Or could it be that Kaz wanted a wee sound bite and was prepared to do a Carmichael with the truth.
Well seen why New lab Leader hasn’t a clue about Scotland if this is the poor quality of SNP BAD Rhetoric he’s getting from wee Kazi.
Well I suppose they could worse I suppose Ricardo. Stu linked to this wee article about Britain First candidate over on Twitter. What a lovely man he is, no not Stu we already know HE is, I mean Paul Golding!
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
@AlbertaScot
It’s hard to speak out when the State Broadcaster and indeed most of the MSM refuse to report what you say. You do understand this don’t you?
Eh – whit?!
Is he talking about another country or an alternative universe where Labour are clowns – oh hang on – that’s the one we’re in!
Thanx K1.
Great letter from Gav Newlands. But Gav ain’t the SNP press office. And since it’s dated today it’s two days late.
Which is my point. Time to put someone’s feet to the fire and get an honest day’s work out of the SNP bunker.
There are a lot of out-of-work journos floating around these days folks. Think about it.
Another thought. Since Jezza has come out as a socialist-without-borders isn’t the “privitization” of ScotRail a good thing?
The new operator is the Dutch national rail company, isn’t it? That would make it being “de-privatized.” Just askin’.
link to jillstephensonblog.wordpress.com
Effie Deans wannabe spaketh unto vile separatists.
“It appears to have eluded nationalists that the British state has furnished them with a broad variety of freedoms. We hear bleating about Scots not being ‘free’, being ‘captive’, in ‘slavery’, ‘exploited’.”
How many ex colonies will have had that sort of stuff read out that them? Their divine and blessed union is secure under Lady Effie and Baroness Jill. What’s Professor Smirky of Slovenia been up to lately?
Adam Tomkins ?@ProfTomkins Sep 26
.@Effiedeans Absolutely delighted that you’re voting for us, Effie. Thank you.
16 retweets 14 favourites
Arise Sir Tomkins!
It is a curious thing to note that Corbyn’s open and avowed appeal in rUK is a break with the Blairite past. Yet in Scotland he is offering exactly what lab offered before, in terms of how he engages with the voters.
If he thinks there needs to be a radical change in rUK (and if he does I agree), then why on earth does he think that what Scotland will respond to is more of the same. Especially when that same is lies already wholly debunked?
@Ian More 4:23pm
The Guardian comment section on the Catalonia vote is pretty hilarious. Seemingly unreconstructed Falangists are active there, claiming that the Guardian and its Spanish correspondent are in the pocket of Catalan separatists. They have a lot of British nationalist support.
Apparently their talking point is that the outright pro-independence parties won only 47% of votes cast and so there’s no mandate for any further devolution of powers from Madrid to Barcelona. However, they have no response to the simple fact that even some moderate anti-independence parties (eg. Podemos, who alone got 9%) support a referendum on Catalan independence, and so there’s a majority in favour of a referendum and opposed to Rajoy’s crude attempts to block one.
I don’t pretend to be an expert on Spanish/Catalan politics, but the extremist position of the Rajoy government seems untenable.
@Lesley-Anne 4:41pm
The BNP (which Paul Golding used to be a member of) actually had a seat on the London Assembly between 2008 and 2012. I expect the Kippers might do well now. All the splittist fascist groups, now that there’s an Asian-English leading candidate, will be somewhat amusing to watch.
Maybe if they came chapping doors selling something useful…like…oh I don’t know.. a new spirtle maybe?
maybe if they sold betterware?
Alberta
link to snp.org
They do press releases.
Not following your logic in the rest of your post?
There is no publicly owned national rail network. SNP didn’t privatise the railways. The running of the network is tendered out and Abellio won the contract…so they manage the network in Scotland now.
Ah, I see now, as Abellio are a publicly owned company, in essence Scotrail are ‘nationalised’ by proxy?
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
“I get that there will still be wars in the Middle East. I don’t see why we have to be involved in them.”
Clearly the whole area appears to be a “basket case” and it is sometimes difficult (i.e. Syria) to know what to do if anything. However, in my view, it sometimes very easy to know what the “right” thing to do is.
1. If a group, like ISIL, are about to murder 10,000 Yazidis who have fled to a mountain top, then, if we are in a position to stop the genocide – then we should. Any other response is, frankly, reprehensible.
2. If government forces in Libya, have trapped 100s of thousands of its citizens on a coast – and are about to set about killing them, then, if we are in a position to stop the genocide – then we should. Any other response is reprehensible.
3. If a country like Iraq chooses to randomly invade a country like Kuwait then, if we are in a position to reverse that position together with allies in the region – then we should. Any other response is, frankly, ……
… and so on.
It is fashionable to condemn our successive governments for all our of actions in the Middle East. Those that do the condemnation need to tell me what they would have done. In so doing, they need to estimate the loss of life that they could have stopped, but chose not to, and justify that total to me.
Life is very complicated in the Middle East, and we have surely made mistakes along the way. But, in my view, I am hugely proud that we as a country, via our incredible armed forces, are prepared to do what is right sometimes – and take the brickbats that may come subsequently – rather than allowing genocide to take place when we could have prevented it.
I respect your views Reverend, but I disagree with you.
@AlbertaScot
Have you been following SNP press releases?
link to snp.org
The problem is that the broadcast, paper and online Unionist media don’t report them.
If every SNP press release was given the same coverage that unionist party ones do, we would be in a different country by now.
Ian Murray
“Only 7% of the 10,000 people that are here this week voted to have that debate on Trident.”
Lab Conf guide
“Who gets to vote?
Roughly 10,000 people are expected to attend this year’s Labour Party conference but only around 1,000 of these are delegates eligible to vote.”
Apparently David Hambone is too busy running, or should that be ruining, the country to be bothered suing Lord Ashcroft.
link to archive.is
In that case I guess this never happened … or did it? 😉
link to facebook.com
heedtracker earlier
You wrote: “If it makes you feel any bettertogether sensible, BBC Scotland lunchtime news just boosted the above New New Labour pack of lies to high vote SLab or else heaven, with all the UKOK vigour that BBC shysters can muster.
You keep making the same mistake time after time Heedy. You keep making the assumption that everyone who didn’t vote YES in your referendum is a “better Together” supporter. Try and understand Heedy, once and for all, that most of us don’t really care! We just want what the people of Scotland (the majority thereof) want.
You want to blame everybody, the BBC, the MSM, the red Tories, the Blue Tories (BTW calling Jezza a “red Tory” is, frankly, a bit of a stretch), the greens, the libdems – in fact everyone but yourself and your fellow Indy supporters.
I keep telling you the same thing Heedy. Scots know that of they vote YES they will end up with an SNP government – and that is what they don’t want. They would rather stay part of the Union than suffer that outcome.
There can be no other reason can there?
I keep telling you the same thing Heedy. Scots know that of they vote YES they will end up with an SNP government – and that is what they don’t want. They would rather stay part of the Union than suffer that outcome.
If my understanding of what you say here SD is correct, and I think I am, then we obviously can not have had an S.N.P. government in Scotland since 2007.
I must be living in an alternate universe cause I was sure, nay certain even, that we have actually had an S.N.P. government in Scotland since 2007. Hey ho there you go we all learn something new every day!
But, in my view, I am hugely proud that we as a country, via our incredible armed forces, are prepared to do what is right sometimes – and take the brickbats that may come subsequently – rather than allowing genocide to take place when we could have prevented it.”
Sensibledave it was Bush and Blair that caused all of it. Have you forgotten about the actual causes of the middle east catastrophic and profoundly criminal UKOK attacks sensibledave?
Ofcourse you have.
Or why did assorted US and UK maniacs invade Iraq after 9/11, a terrorist attack consisting mainly of Saudis?
And we let said maniacs keep their nukes 30 miles from Glasgow. Another red and blue tory boy UKOK nightmare in waiting.
Responses required.
Committee considers BBC’s future role for Scotland
sensibledave
Do you agree that the middle-east is descending into a hellish bloodbath, largely as a result of it’s post-WW1 carve-up by European empires and subsequent western foreign policy since WW2, e.g. the British-lead coup d’état against Iran’s President Mosaddegh and the ongoing ‘Ark of Crisis’? What about western backing for the Islamic Brotherhood?
The interests behind this form of ‘liberal interventionism’ are the same as those behind Better Together UKOK. Imperialism is a bit outdated, don’t you think old bean?
Get all your news and opinion from the BBC?
@sensibledave
You’re not going to find anyone that condones mass murder or genocide. What you might find is that people don’t like actions taken by the US and UK, sometimes with the help of France, that make the situation worse not better, and at the same time put Russia in the position where it finds to preserve its spheres of influence, and even its own physical integrity, it has to ramp up its military presence until it gets to the stage that Cameron for instance is like “oh, maybe we should back off a wee bit and talk to the Russians”, as is happening now.
The solution is very simple: support the UN and strengthen it, and work through the UN, for all its faults. What actually happens is that the US and UK in particular, with France at times, and even Germany who do in general support UN resolutions, take actions without the support of Russia in the wide world, and even against the old enemy, Russia, in particular, whitch totally undermines any attempt to get the UN into the position it should be.
I personally would expect the UK to take its part in enforcing a UN Resolution. I do not support it acting unilaterally.
Hey K1, we seem to be singing out of the same hymn book. Just not on the same page.
I’m channelling Onward Christian Soldiers and you’re hung up on Abide with Me.
I’m talking about what the Yanks call a “War Room.”
Like when the Jezza or Deputy Dug spout off some on total lie and distortions or there are Junkers over the Channel.
The klaxton goes off and all those guys in white whooly turtle necks run for their Spitfires.
They don’t deal another hand of cribbage and pour a cup of tea like the SNP press office appears to do most days.
It’s called jump to the pumps. Instant reaction.
Get the truth out there pronto so those Labour creep asses Maddock, Settle and Katie can’t ignore it.
The BBC and most other media outfits have some kind of a fart catcher to handle complaints. Stu knows how to torment them. Why not the SNP press office snoozers.
There are 120,000 members now all primed for action and I suspect a large majority have an e-mail address on the SNP database.
What you do is mobilize the troups and carpet bomb the suckers with e-mail complaints.
Just like the Bannockburn Battle assault was carried out last week. Hilarious but effective.
Ignore the editors and also hammer the front office suits.
The hate it when the subscribers are restless. Because with them it’s all about the money and when you are bleeding circulation having a bunch of pissed off readers is the last thing they needed first thing in the morning.
Oh, on the ScotRail front, I’m talking irony here.
@cynicalHighlander
Haven’t read it yet, but I did read Hyslop’s excellent suggestions for a devolved BBC. The thing about that is that it is clearly a sensible and reasonable approach, and might even make progress over the next few months, years.
Wha it also just happens to do by an amazing coincidence is show that the SNP aren’t BBC haters, they really care.
Oh, and the message goes out clearly to BBC Scotland – you need to clean up your act and reform, because you will be controlled by the People of Scotland, not Neil Oliver and the UK establishment paymasters.
Like Independence, it’s not a question of “if”, it’s a question of “when”.
sensibledave
I almost forgot the BritNat dichotomy of thinking Israeli nationalism good, Scottish nationalism BAAAAAD. Any comment on this particular cognitive dissonance?
Just *ahem* completed their little survey CH. 😉
Advice to Labour:
Keep lying, keep losing.
Pathetic bunch.
Can we now finally see the end of anyone giving it “if Labour can return to Old Labour…”.
They have gone forever and we now have generations of Scottish voters who either cannot mentally recognise or register Labour as an actual option or know exactly what Labour have become and will never hear anything they try to say/claim/promise/lie
Lets not waste any more time on these charlatan..remember no one at the party wants to sit near the drunken uncle once he enters morose state.
Three war vets telling Cameron, or at least the Downing Street police and crowd, what they think of war.
link to facebook.com
@Lesley-Anne
I did it twice (ccleaner – clean out cookies). My second was very short and sweet. The only thing I filled in was “Scotland very poor” for coverage and wrote this:
“The BBC should be devolved, and the Charter rewritten to reflect that.
Until the BBC is devolved it is not fit for purpose, and its Charter should not be renewed at the end of 2016,”
@Jon Buchanan says: 28 September, 2015 at 2:33 pm:
” … I’ve read some posts saying there are unusual ways and means of posting links on wings, anyone steer me right?”
In case no one else has replied to you Jon, the thing is that wordpress has problems with only YouTube addresses. For other links just post the link but for you tube only just miss out the, “Http://bit at the start and wordpress will reinsert it on the comment. Sorry if I’m late as I had to go out for a while just before your post.
reading sensible dave’s comments on the Middle East should remind us all how good the BBC and the UK Government is at propaganda. Not our fault! we didn’t invade Afghanistan 3 times, Iraq twice and bomb the hell out of Libya. We are a force for good in the world. Our troops are the best in the world – so we must keep them busy. Those refugees did it all themselves and must be kept at arms length. I honestly and openly admit that I believed all this British propaganda until 20 years ago. When you start to delve everything falls into place! What is the only country in the world constantly involved in conflict since the 2nd world war with the exception of one year. You have guessed it. What you may also understand is ….. why!!!
Makes you wonder if MI5 rigged the labour leadership vote.
sensibledave says:
28 September, 2015 at 5:20 pm
heedtracker earlier
All over the shop as per sensibledave. What’s so offensive in complaining about BBC vote SLabour propaganda bias here in your Scotland region?
This lunchtime’s attack on SNP Scot.gov from these absurd shills in Pacific Quay was a just hideous, if you’re not a SLab voter. And they are getting worse and worse by the week. So wondering on WoS what these BBC shills hope to achieve, how they expect to get away with it etc is what we called democracy and if you look at the top of the page there, WoS is all about the media and Scottish democracy.
BBC vote SLab attack propaganda is so bad now, they’re in a UKOK world of their own or maybe not they’re not sensibledave. Next Scottish elections are a real test of British state BBC led and coordinated media attack propaganda in Scotland and it is extremely important.
If each election from now on results in SNP Scots.gov and majority SNP MP’s in London, this farce union is crumbling away by the day.
If the BBC fail to get SLab back to power in their Scotland region within the next five years sensibledave…
Lesley-Anne 5:30 pm
You wrote: “If my understanding of what you say here SD is correct, and I think I am, then we obviously can not have had an S.N.P. government in Scotland since 2007.
I must be living in an alternate universe cause I was sure, nay certain even, that we have actually had an S.N.P. government in Scotland since 2007. Hey ho there you go we all learn something new every day!”
… but not maths it appears! The SNP have never had a 51% majority. The majority don’t want an SNP government Lesley-Anne. SNP economic policy isn’t enacted – Westminster’s is.
However, post a YES Indy, the SNP would probably be able to form a government and implement their full economic policy in Scotland. Until very recently the SNP have only spent tax payers money – they have never been responsible for raising tax revenues (other than Council tax – which they have frozen for the rich – along with everyone else (how very progressive!)). They have new powers now – and what have they done? Increased tax? No! Increased Welfare payments? No!
I am telling you what successive elections should be telling you Lesley-Anne. Scots like the idea of the SNP coming down to Westminster and kicking arse and getting a better deal for Scotland – but they dont want them actually in charge it would appear.
So your average is Scot is a canny blighter – and not desperately keen to let Ms Sturgeon run the whole country.
Says the Englishman living in Hull(?).
heedtracker at 5:31 pm
“Sensibledave it was Bush and Blair that caused all of it. Have you forgotten about the actual causes of the middle east catastrophic and profoundly criminal UKOK attacks sensibledave?”
…so Heedy, “bush and Blair”caused all of it”?!?!?
I have no reason to defend Bush or Blair Heedy, – but did they really cause all the Middle East problems??? Was it really all peace and light before them? I think your personal politics are re-writing history Heedy.
Which actions should we not have got involved with Heedy? The Yazidis, The Libyans, The Kuwaities? The Bosnians. Do tell. Cant wait.
Is McDonnell saying, “I am ignorant and have no intention of being informed”?
Or could he be saying, “I get my information from John McTernan and trust him to the hilt”?
Or is he saying, “I will do and say anything to blacken the reputation of the SNP and need no help to do it”?
Only one statement can be true.
AlbertaScot
You are very good at calling SNP pressroom lazy.Take a look at Twitter-that’s where they have to concentrate their efforts. I get every press release to my account & then I tweet it to my followers, then they tweet it to theirs & so on. That is faster than any newspaper or broadcaster can do.
As Nicola often says on social media a lie has only got to the bottom of the street before the truth has its boots on & is chasing after it. Witness the speed that the lie about Nicola & the French ambassador was debunked (Carmichael leak)-less than an hour & it was proved false.
I can get every press release sent to my email address but with an Inbox at 20,000 emails in it already I really don’t want any more filling it so twitter works for me.
The advantage of using twitter is that unionists aren’t very good at it so that gives snp the advantage & there’s plenty of us out there to get the message out to where it needs to go.
The common or garden Labour Onionist must be despairing as their new hope has turned out to be a total donkey.
You really couldn’t make this shit up.
I’d say Michael Foote had more about him than Corbyn. Much more charisma 🙂
sensibledave
I’m sure I’m not the only one to notice you appear to be feart of me. What give you the moral authority to pontificate on Scotland’s future?
Misreporting Scotland tv with two Labour attacks on SNP without reply and no coverage of Nicola Sturgeon announcement of fund to help home grown inventions.
@sensibledave
Not that old one again. The turnout in 2011 was 50% so using that logic 50% of Scotland is anarchist and wants no government at all.
So your average is Scot is a canny blighter – and not desperately keen to let Ms Sturgeon run the whole country.
So why did UKOK come up with their historic The Vow fraud sensible, having kept devo-max off our ref ballot?
Easy question and we all know they answer. On the one hand, Britnats say the Vow made no difference and t’other, the Vow’s turned out to be worse than nothing, with Smith Commission “giving” Scotland nothing, or in effect worse with nothing, PAYE taxation.
We’ve already got SLab/BBC creeps raging away for tax hikes in Scotland, tax hikes that will only hit the lowest earner in Scotland the hardest.
Rule Britnatia, vote SLab, its their right to reign over you sweaties, the BBC say so, is why.
yesindyref2 5:35 pm
You wrote: “You’re not going to find anyone that condones mass murder or genocide.”
I am sure you are right – but it does appear there are many willing to accept it – I don’t.
The Yazidi sat on a mountain top waiting to murdered doesn’t give a fig about your self flagellation regarding our imperial past. He doesn’t care that you dont vote Conservative. He doesnt care whether Blair or Bush might have been wrong 20 odd years ago. He just wants to be saved.
You sit and wring your hands at the dichotomy – whilst others get on and actually do something about it.
You didnt answer the points I raised Indyref. If you were in charge, would you have bombed ISIL to save the Yazidis? Would you have bombed the Libyan forces to save those citizens trapped on the coast? Would you have joined with others to liberate Kuwait? Would you have entered Serbia to save the Bosnian Muslims? – or would you sit on your hands saying we have been bad in the past – we cant get involved – let them die?
I really enjoy spuriousdaves posts. But then I like to be talked down to and patronised. It must have been a quiet day at the BBC and he had nothing much to do.
Did you not get a trip to the Brit Nat bash the SNP con con spuriousdave. Well you do sounds like a BBC face.
Maybe they will let you go to the Blue Tory version of bash the SNP con con. They are pretty good at patronising Scots as well.
@sensibledave: “They have new powers now – and what have they done? Increased tax? No! Increased Welfare payments? No!”
I name you Jeremy Corbyn and claim my £5.
You clearly don’t know what is devolved, what isn’t, what is in the Scotland 2012 Act and when it will be implemented, or what might or might not be in the 2015 Scotland Act – or when it might be implemented, if ever.
@Will Podmore says: 28 September, 2015 at 2:35 pm:
” … The SNP government cuts education, then blames the Cameron government for its own mishandling of education.”
“And a cry of Pish! rang out above the crowd”.
Podmore, you wouldn’t recognise your chosen God’s truth if it came directly from the mouth of whatever mythical god you follow.
Here it is though, from me.
The United Kingdom Government finances only English function from the sums made available to each United Kingdom Ministry. However, when they devolve any particular function from those UK Ministries to a devolved UK countries parliament they must also devolve the funds from that particular ministry to run the now devolved function. Because the devolved countries have no tax raising powers.
There is, though, a consequence for this idiotic arrangement that is known as, “Barnett Consequentials”.
This is a result of the Barnett Formula and it works like this – If the Treasury provides extra funds to the ministry that deals with UK education then obviously a portion of that UK increase in funding must be devolved to the three devolved administrations on a per capita basis. This is a Positive Barnett Consequential.
If the Treasury cuts the UK education to the UK ministry then a per capita share of the cuts must be born by the devolved administrations. This is a negative Barnett consequential.
But there’s more. The Central UK government changed how UK, (that is obviously only English), further education was to be funded. They decreed that each student had to contribute a, “Tuition fee”, and then cut the UK Education Budget as English Students were contributing to the cost of their education.
However, the Scottish Government were pledged to free higher education but the negative Barnett Consequentials were applied and massive cuts resulted in the Scottish Block Grant. This is why it was decided to charge only English students tuition fees in Scottish education. The reason being each English students tuition fee had already been deducted by central government.
So your claims there was no central government cuts in the Scottish education budget are PISH. As is the rest of your usual abusive trolling post.
Surprise surprise , party political broadcast at the commencement of
“reporting North Britain” this evening .The “Scottish Labour ” / “better together “propaganda
channel continues unabated in their support for the “party”
with 1 MP at Westminster .Ian Murray appears to have
more airtime that “Jackie Bird” these days .the “fifty six” might
as well attend the Catalonia parliament as they would probably
receive more broadcast time over there.
… but not maths it appears! The SNP have never had a 51% majority. The majority don’t want an SNP government Lesley-Anne. SNP economic policy isn’t enacted – Westminster’s is.
Erm … I think I have blinked here. No where in your post SD do you EVER mention anything about a 51% majority for anyone.
While you say this in your original post you seem to have forgotten something.
Try and understand Heedy, once and for all, that most of us don’t really care! We just want what the people of Scotland (the majority thereof) want.
According to you you want what the majority, 50.1% I assume, of Scots want. Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news but ever since the 2007 Scottish elections the largest party in Holyrood, as desired by the people of Scotland, has been the S.N.P.
Not only have they been the largest party since 2007, they increased their numbers in 2011 and by all polling records so far they appear to be on course to INCREASE their numbers yet again next May.
Now I’m only the village idiot in these parts but even I can see that the S.N.P. must be doing something right if they can keep INCREASING their numbers of M.S.P.’s, not to mention the little matter of the Famous 56!
It’s all very reminiscent of the unionist media’s hailing of Jim Murphy as the new Messiah.
Cameron: Sanitisedslop – What gives you the moral authority to pontificate on Scotland’s future?
Because he’s an arrogant sod, and thinks he knows what’s good for Scotland, better than anybody in Scotland.
SNP economic policy isn’t enacted – Westminster’s is.
Interesting wee snippet there SD.
S.N.P. policy isn’t enacted. Hmm … I wonder what everyone who is thankful for the financial assistance from Holyrood would say to that. Oh I forgot they are all sending letters of thanks to David Cameron for saving them from the dreaded Tory Bedroom tax. Now remind me here cause I’m confused … who exactly installed the current bedroom tax on the poor … oh that’s right … it was the TORIES! Hmm!
I see on the 6 o’clock news the BBC didn’t have to comment on McDonnell’s lie that the SNP voted against the living wage, capping rents etc. They just left that part of his speech out and went straight to ‘labour are the only party of austerity now, so you come back to us’.
@sensibledave.
Do you know the difference between helping innocent civilians under attack and destabilising an entire region of the world by using the defence of innocents as an excuse for regime change and geo-political sublimation ?
Away and haver son.
Just heard on STV that labour & SNP will “battle it out” on Scotland tonight over what was said at labour conference.
And to think I used to like John McDonnell because he stood up for disabled people, no more, just the same as the rest.
Hi Jon Buchanan.
Re: the posting of links.
This is the rule of thumb I use and it seems to apply ok.
If a link contains both “http://” and “www”, you only paste the “www” and everything after it.
However, if a link only starts with “http”, with no “www”, then you need to paste the full link, including the “http://”.
As an example, look at the address of this page in your browser’s address bar at the top of this window. If you were gonna post that link somewhere, as it has no “www”, you’d need to paste it all, so that web browsers recognise it as a link.
Dan Huil@7.00
Who?
Lesley-Anne 6:59 pm
…
You wrote “Not only have they been the largest party since 2007, they increased their numbers in 2011 and by all polling records so far they appear to be on course to INCREASE their numbers yet again next May.
Now I’m only the village idiot in these parts but even I can see that the S.N.P. must be doing something right if they can keep INCREASING their numbers of M.S.P.’s, not to mention the little matter of the Famous 56!
… It is hard to respond without sounding condescending, but do you really not understand my point?
In order for Scotland to have Independence, you will need to win a referendum. With me so far? That will require a 50.1% vote of the Scottish electorate, yes?
The SNP have not had that level of support for an SNP Government. Correct?
There must be a significant number of voters that are happy to have the SNP government at Holyrood – but dont want INdependence. Yes? (this could of course change).
Logically therefore, there must be a sizeable number of people that prefer Unionism to an SNP government of an Independent Scotland.
I dont think I can help you any more than that Lesley-Anne. Either you agree there is an issue -or you would have Independence.
18.00 news Radio Scotland …Lead story John MacDonald’s speech, no mention of the 1700 jobs loss at Redcar during bulletin
18.00 news Radio 2…….lead Story ….Redcar
18.30 ITV news. Lead story Redcar.
@sensibledave
Bereft of a sensible argument against what I actually did post, you have plunged into some sort of mouth-frothing diatribe in response to what I didn’t actually say at all.
Ah well, mad dogs and all that. Try reading what you’re replying to, rather than launching off into the furtive imagination of your own nefarious universe, eh?
Ha ha ” come home to liebour, i’d rather come home to bubonic plague, lying barstewards.
CameronB Brodie 6:39 pm
“I’m sure I’m not the only one to notice you appear to be feart of me. What give you the moral authority to pontificate on Scotland’s future?”
1. Why on earth would I be afraid of you?
2. Which way do you want it CameronB? The “56” SNP MPS are involved in Westminster politics and want a say in how I, living in the South East of England, am run – but not the other way round? You claim to speak for the people of Scotland and yet the Independence referendum was lost. The people of Scotland voted to remain part of the Union (i didnt, and still dont care whether they did/do, or not) so therefore the governance of Scotland is as much to do with me as it is you Cammy – other than the devolved powers enacted by the Holyrood government that you vote for. Our MPs (yours and mine) vote to decide the laws of the UK. We are one Cammy.
You, and I maybe I, wish it was otherwise – but thems the breaks.
So, I don’t claim moral authority Cammy, I claim a right as a fellow citizen of the UK to share my political views on how the UK is run and have a view on politics across the UK – until such time as the shape of the UK changes.
And BTW Cammy, Yazidis? Libyans, Kuwaities, Bosnians? which of those would you have let die if you were in charge so that you could claim the moral high ground of non-intervention? Do tell.
So another silver haired chancellor wth dark eyebrows – do they clone liars in the liebour party?
I knew Salty dog Captain Corbyn wasn’t capable to take the bridge of a ship, but on his performance so far it’s doubtful he could pilot a barge down a straight canal.
Pretty clear he intends to dismiss help, especially from those SNP brigands. Okay, have it your way, Captain.
Leave the bloody lock gates locked!
Anyhow, Volkswagen, the People’s Car maker, is in deep doo-doo. How far will the scam unravel?
link to grousebeater.wordpress.com
geeo at 7:04 pm
You wrote “Do you know the difference between helping innocent civilians under attack and destabilising an entire region of the world by using the defence of innocents as an excuse for regime change and geo-political sublimation ?
Yes Geeo, I do understand the difference – It was Rev Stu that started this off by questioning why we might get involved in other peoples wars. I merely responded to that point.
Well well well. I wonder if anyone saw this happening. 😉
link to archive.is
I think this falls under the heading of “keeping it in the family.” 😀
@Robert Peffers 6.04
Thanks Robert, Lesley-Anne and CameronB Brodie did try to keep me right but think I still didnt quite get the link right because I was using a tablet/mobile youtube link…anyhoo, many thanks to all congenial wingers, bless all yer cotton socks!
…at the slight risk of boring anyone, if McDonnell/Corbyn want any lessons on how to do a kind of ‘Straight Talking Honest Politics’ which would go down well in Scotland, they could do at lot worse than this guy, rather than listening to whose briefing on the nonsense they’ve been spouting the last couple of days! Of course the content/policy proposal is different (if you watch the clip, its not long speech as Lesley-Anne points out above, any thoughts on why the heck we cant have a policy like that from one of our parties?) but there’s no doubt where Joe Mcdonald’s politics or heart lie, cant say the same about Labour in the uk or their scottish branch!
link to youtube.com
sensibledave
Yawn. Ignorant imperialists are so last century Dave. You are apparently unaware that Scotland exists in a Union that ensure a democratic deficit for Scottish voters. Scotland will away get what England decides, so do you think that reasonable, sensible or a bit colonial in outlook?
More bombing: it’s Westminster’s way. The Butcher’s Apron keeps on flying.
Catalonia not mentioned on Reporting Scotland or STV News
Hhmmm? (No relevance ? Maybe it didn’t happen then )
Didn’t some politician somewhere say something about being “a
pretty straight sort of a guy ” – I seem to remember he was a lying ba$tard too.
The real insult to the electorate is how they arrive at these absurd comments.
A major piece of legislation is going through either parliament. In the middle of all the serious stuff you insert an amendment something like this. “The Lanour Party is the only honest and humane party and we wish to ensure that for evermore the SNP will never strangle at birth red haired babies ”
Of course you vote against such a nonsense amendment but think of the fun Labour could have.
EG the SNP voted to sustan the right to strangle red haired babies.
With good journalism such devices are exposed but there aint much good journalism about!
sensibledave
I do not support NATO, so I obviously do not support any of it’s expansionist ‘ethnic puppetry’.
@ Grey Dug at 1:04 pm
“I assume that he is no longer employed in an capacity by the party, but has that ever been confirmed?”
I read,about a month ago, somewhere that he was still on the “books” holding out for more money, no doubt like the good labourite that he is,
Anyway where would he be going to ? Who in their sane mind would employ the little turd
Dan Huil says:
28 September, 2015 at 7:00 pm
It’s all very reminiscent of the unionist media’s hailing of Jim Murphy as the new Messiah.
And Johann Lamont.
And Ian Grey.
And Wendy Alexander.
The BBC’s search for another great white hope, to hammer the nats goes on, and on, and on……..
@Brian Doonthetoon 7.11
Thanks muchly Brian, got there in the end I think, prepared and versed for future link posting, just need watch those paragraph breaks now!
@sensibledave
165,231 deaths of civilians in Iraq since the start of the 2003 war which had absolutely nothing to do with Kuwait.
Civilian deaths in recent years still running at between 500 and 1000 every month.
link to iraqbodycount.org
By way of comparison there were an estimated 67,200 civilian deaths in the UK and British colonies during the second world war.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Syria is involved in a civil war and Yes civilians are dying. Do you really believe that intervention by the West in Syria will reduce the number of civilians being killed.
I’d suggest then that you are deluded.
@sensibledave
“Logically therefore, there must be a sizeable number of people that prefer Unionism to an SNP government of an Independent Scotland.”
Your logic ignores the group which was the largest two years ago. At the outset of the Indy campaign – 30% wanted Indy, 40% wanted DevoMax and 30% wanted status quo. And of course Indy supporters would have accepted DevoMax as a big step forward.
So, although you could say at that point 70% wished to stay within the Union, you could also say DevoMax was acceptable to 70% ( with obvious overlap ).
The campaign began with status quo versus independence. However it ended as DevoMax versus independence.
The reality, which we now know with certainty, is that DevoMax is far beyond the level of devolution any WM party will ever offer. However, just one year ago, those same parties were pretending it was available.
Over the coming months it will become totally clear to all that there are only two options. Either, we are given DevoNotVeryMuch, or we take Indy. When those still wanting DevoMax realise it is but a pipe dream, many will take that extra step and move to Indy supporting.
Your scenario of Indy versus Unionist status quo is historical and ignores the DevoMax huge numbers of people had in mind. Soon DevoMax will be dead and buried.
I watched Corbyn’s speech when he won the leadership contest…I thought “what a refreshing change is about to sweep through Labour and Westminster”
…what happened?
The events of the last few weeks have proven that the elite control the party and the quarter of a million who put their faith in Corbyn may as well have voted for Liz Kendall!
On another topic Kezia gave it away at an interview today – “…Scottish Labour MAY include a debate on Trident at their conference”
I thought they had reached bottom in May – I was wrong.
I wonder how many busses will drive North next May to offload Labour activists in Scottish towns and cities chanting “SNP bad”.
Very relieved by your link, Lesley-Anne. Thought it might have been about Call me Dave gettin’ down with the piglets.
@sensibledave
From one posting: “Until very recently the SNP have only spent tax payers money – they have never been responsible for raising tax revenues (other than Council tax – which they have frozen for the rich – along with everyone else (how very progressive!)). They have new powers now – and what have they done? Increased tax? No! Increased Welfare payments? No!”
But from another later one:
“The people of Scotland voted to remain part of the Union … so therefore the governance of Scotland is as much to do with me as it is you Cammy – other than the devolved powers enacted by the Holyrood government that you vote for.”
Make up your mind! Which is it, our business is your business, or our business isn’t your business?
Jon Buchanan says:
28 September, 2015 at 7:52 pm
@Brian Doonthetoon 7.11
Thanks muchly Brian, got there in the end I think, prepared and versed for future link posting, just need watch those paragraph breaks now!
This posting malarky with links included is fun … don’t you think Jon. 😀 😀 😀
Lesley Ann: I think this falls under the heading of “keeping it in the family.”
Hoo haar! 😀
Yes folks, BBC Scotland and STV news both dropped the lies that McDonnell spouted today about the SNP.
They did broadcast them in the lunchtime news bulletins, so I doubt the lawyers have had a wee word with the producers of the Labour luvvin newsrooms.
It is just one fight after another with BBC Scotland and STV and we must keep reminding them that we are right on their case.
So the two new henchmen of the Apocalypse, are going after
Starbucks, Amazon and Google to get them to pay their “fair share” of tax.
All these companies have to do is shout BOO, and watch them run away.
It’s obvious they will say and do anything to get a vote, what a pair of dodgy prostitutes.
Well Wingers, you are by far the most polite and patient bunch of Nasty Nationalists anywhere in our country
The tripe that’s poured out by these imbecile trolls every time they think there’s a wee glimmer of hope for their delusional arguments they jump on to Wings and take you on
And being the nice folk you all are you go through each and every piece of nonsense they type, and answer with aplomb, but still they come, relentless in their pursuit of, well I’m not quite sure what, could it be conversion to the dark side, and do we, or they think that is ever going to happen
The answer is a noisy NO, so why do they continue with the same rubbish getting the same answers, and I think by George I have it
It’s the old very British idea of when you speak to a foreign person, if at first they don’t understand, the British person shouts even louder, coz that works really well as we know, if they still don’t get it the British person slows down and shouts again,(nothing)
Next step, the British person then announces to the world, all foreigners are stupid
But what the British person doesn’t know is
Us foreigners understood every Fcuking word you said so who’s the Arsehole Now
“In order for Scotland to have Independence, you will need to win a referendum. With me so far? That will require a 50.1% vote of the Scottish electorate, yes?”
Absolutely not. It will only require 50%+1 of the votes cast. If a member of the Scottish electorate does not take part then his/her non-existent vote cannot and does not count at all, either way.
The glaring contradiction in Labour’s lying about the SNP’s battle against austerity, Labour has poached the SNP’s economic adviser – Stiglitz!
And unlike zee frog-hating Engleesh, Captain Corbyn has also nipped across the Channel (in the night?) to enrol Picketty.
What a bunch of jolly tossers are Labour.
caz-m: At least those lies didn’t reach folk tonight because sure as hell, there would have been no SNP voice on after to debunk the lies. Might be brought up later tonight though on Scotland 2015!
John McDonnell is an old hand politician,he will say anything to get a favourable result,he admitted as much on Question Time.
After he gets result he will later apologise for misrepresenting the truth, but he `felt at the time it was for the greater good`.
This is Post Truth politics, when facts don`t matter, where evidence does not matter,only results matter.
New Old Labour are turning out to be as duplicitous as the Old New Labour.
The only politicians you can trust are Nicola and the SNP.
What a curfuffelll. I have never had anytime for Labour , remind me why ?
You could write a book .
Once a $hit always a $hit !
A few months back many of us were delighted and very pleased with a long post on the Money situation . Same poster did another great post explaining the College situation.
Many here tried to encourage the poster to contact Rev and forward an article for WOS.
Same poster then did several more brilliant additional posts.
I thought I had them bookmarked but cannot find them. Damm it!
I’m not clear on the posters name Derek M maybe ?
Anyone else like minded remember ?
I would be very grateful for any help.
“SCOTLAND has offered to mediate between Spain and Catalonia as the two Iberian nations enter a constitutional crisis. “
You have to admire the cheek of Sturgeon & Co 🙂
Clootie 8.00pm
“I wonder how many busses will drive North next May to offload Labour activists in Scottish towns and cities chanting “SNP bad”.”
It’s not a problem Clootie, if an English Labour activist approaches you next May in the run up to the Scottish Parliament elections, then give them a good old Scottish welcome and then politely tell them to fuck off back to England.
Tinto Chiel says:
28 September, 2015 at 8:00 pm
Very relieved by your link, Lesley-Anne. Thought it might have been about Call me Dave gettin’ down with the piglets.
For once Tinto I left my oinking bacon and pork thoughts grunting elsewhere. 😀
Doffs hat, curtsey’s etc etc etc GB. 😉
Grousebeater @ 8.15
Re Labour poaching Stieglitz.
Given how Labour have spent 8 years rubbishing the SNP’s economic policy – think oil-fund which Professor Stigliz said was still perfectly feasible – how are Labour going to spin it when the Prof gives them similar advice given they have spent all this time rubbishing the policies the SNP have brought forth based on his advice?
Mediation services 😉
link to archive.is
Looks like the Catalan vote is actually split with parties … 48% Indy, 39% stay with Spain …. And 13% maybe yes, maybe no. Perhaps some horse trading still to be done?
Harry
The whole of the summer has just been one big Labour Party Fest for our Scottish Media.
Sinky @ 6.41
Was reading about that on twitter, excellent news.
The BBC are digging a hole for themselves, leave them to it.
I believe they are so out of touch that sooner or later they will make a serious error of judgement, whatever form that takes there will be repercussions.
I only mentioned it, L-A, because I had heard rumours his behaviour is getting rasher and rasher.
Back on topic, at least we now know that real socialists like Corbyn and McDonnell can lie just as well as the Bombing Blairites.
Kinda reassuring, eh?
Down the plug hole with the Salty Sea Dog, me hearties.
@Tackety Beets
Yes it was Derek M, posts were fantastic. I think sometime around April/May
Would that be salted or unsalted Davish rashers Tinto? 😀
Dr Jim: The answer is a noisy NO, so why do they continue with the same rubbish getting the same answers
If tha’ troll came into moi pub, I’d say – NO!!! How dare ya fink you can come waltzin’ into moi local and upset me!! Or fink ya down size me. Yas can go play wiv the buses, Yas can! That’s wha’ I’d say.”
😀
Must stop the puns, L-A, before we get hammered by The Rev.
Oh, goad, ah’v done it again.
It’s always the posts that are most damaging to the unionist parties that get disrupted by the trolls. Nice to see you, trollers, you must be worried 😀
Tinto Chiel says:
28 September, 2015 at 9:11 pm
Must stop the puns, L-A, before we get hammered by The Rev.
Oh, goad, ah’v done it again.
WHIT?
You use a hammer in the kitchen to flatten your bacon rashers Tinto? 😉
what do you use a 5lb sledge hammer by any chance? 😀
Just look on the bright side though Tinto … we could be discussing how best to approach a prk chop! 😀
CameronB Brodie 7:50 pm
I wrote “And BTW Cammy, Yazidis? Libyans, Kuwaities, Bosnians? which of those would you have let die if you were in charge so that you could claim the moral high ground of non-intervention? Do tell.”
You wrote “I do not support NATO, so I obviously do not support any of it’s expansionist ‘ethnic puppetry’.”
I have to say, I didn’t expect anyone to come up with something so devoid of humanity as to put their personal political posturing before the lives of 1000s of innocents that could be (were) saved. I am genuinely stunned.
I think its best to leave it there.
In just 2 days the new Labour leadership lost all credibility in Scotland
Simon Pia on RS earlier given all the room he wanted to debunk some McDonnell,s lies today. Nothing.
He then proceeds to tell us that SNP anti austerity talk is all rhetoric and they have no coherent policies.
Nicola must have talked some pish at the LSE and they decided just to humour her.
Does anyone know if SNP have had any right of response to any of this past two days slanderous slavers?
Corbyn: ‘a man we can work with’: blah, blah, blah! blether, blether, blether! Listen! Craws are black: it disnae matter whit colour ye pent them it maks nae difference. They’re black because they’re craws. They’ve aye been black and they’ll aye be black. BECAUSE THEY’RE CRAWS!
I can’t believe the amount of baloney I’ve read some of the posters on here saying about this bloke Corbyn. As if this guy is going to make a difference. HE ISN’T, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT TRUST LABOUR; THEY ARE C-R-A-W-S.
Do try and get this into your heads.
sensibledave – You are critical of someone you imagine is devoid of humanity but have no problem with the deaths by bombing, by NATO, against many innocent men, women and children. You seem unable to understand that the masses of dead and displaced people in the Middle East were directly caused by the intervention of NATO including “our incredible armed forces”! The lasting legacy will be the creation of ISIS. I’m staggered by your lack of humanity and understanding although I’m not surprised really as you appear to be one of those most beloved of the BBC and the British state – the gullible!
Margaret Thatcher aka Boudicca- New Labour prototype
‘…we must heal the wounds of a divided nation. We must learn again to be one nation or one day we will be no nation'(1978, Conservative party conference Brighton)
‘it is not a question of choosing between the conquest of inflation and the conquest of unemployment…we are fighting unemployment by fighting inflation'(1981, Conservative Party conference Blackpool)
Tony Blair,New Labour
‘To make Britain better at generating wealth but to do it on a basis that serves the needs of the whole nation-one nation'(Speech to the Confederation of British Industry,1998)
‘…We didn’t revolutionise British economic policy-Bank of England independence, tough spending rules-for some managerial reason or as a clever wheeze to steal Tory clothes’ (2001, Labour Party Conference Brighton)
‘These are values that every Labour leader from Keir Hardie onwards would recognise. Scottish values. British values. Labour values. Values that are worth fighting for’ (2002,Scottish Labour Party conference Perth)
‘…I am my brother’s keeper, I will not walk by on the other side. We aren’t simply people set in isolation from each other, face to face with eternity, but members of the same family, community, the same human race. This is my socialism’ (1995 Labour Party conference)
‘that’s the SNP for you-always letting the Tories in the through the back door'(Scottish Labour Party Conference, Perth, 2002)
John McDonnell Newer New Labour Party Conference 2015
‘I believe the British people are fed up of being patronised and talked down to by politicians with little more than silly slogans and misleading analogies’
‘We will strategically invest in the key industries and sectors that will deliver the sustainable long term economic growth this country needs.Economic growth that will reach all sections, all regions and all nations of our country’
‘…having cleared that debris from our path we are opening up a national discussion on the reality of the roles of deficits, surpluses, long-term investment, debt and monetary policy.
‘We are embarking on the immense task of changing the economic discourse in this country’
‘The mandate focuses on inflation, and even there the Bank regularly fails to meet its target’
‘Let me be clear that we will guarantee the independence of the Bank of England’
‘The SNP has now voted against the living wage, against capping rent levels and just last week voted against fair taxes in Scotland to spend on schools’
We are bombarded with metaphors of war,journeys, creation ,personification etc,to persuade us to believe in UKOK. Unfortunately the persuasive element is meaningless if its uttered within a political void & one dimensional thinking of ‘SNP bad’. The ideological battle lines are drawn for Scotland’s independence movement-Trident, anti-austerity, renewable energy, control of welfare& all economic levers versus the same tired old UKOK strapline/battle cry.
FGS, its like playgroon antics. He saed-she sae saed.
The Labour Party kin only DREAM aboot The SNP sayin’ or daein these things. Ha! The dafties.
Wit a loadae bollocktics.
Thanks Nana , I should have had more belief in my ” grey matter”
I’ll use the search advice previously posted to find them.
sensibledave
So you do still get all your news and opinion from the BBC. Astonishing! What about the Palestine?
@Tackety Beets
I’m beginning to doubt my own grey matter as I’ve done a quick search through most of April, didn’t find the posts.
I was fairly sure they were before the election.
Well said Rough Bounds. remember the frog and the scorpion story? The frog agrees to carry the scorpion over the river if the scorpion promises not to sting him. half way over the scorpion stings the frog and when the frog says “but you promised!” and the scorpion replies What can I say. I’m a scorpion, it’s what I do.
Craws or scorpions the message is the same. THEY ARE LIARS.
@Nana Smith
You could try googling it using
wings over scotland “derek m”
and perhaps add any words you can remember. It’s important to put the “derek m” in quotes.
Nae worries Nana , it was a long shot .
I too will have a rummage when I’m on PC , iPad has limits.
Ps Had a Wee runny oot @ Baxters festival on Sunday . It’s become quite an event .
I know how we feel following some comments last year , but Baxters do have a good annual event in Inverness.
Before anyone jumps on me tho’.
My end of race goody bag had a bottle of Beetroot & Cranberry juice which I guzzled tonight ehm bottled for Baxters in Italy ! How things change .
Hi Nana Smith & Tackety Beets.
If you want to find specific posts by a Winger, do this.
Go to Google’s ‘Advanced Search’.
link to google.com
In the ‘this exact word or phrase:’ box, paste in the exact username you are looking for, eg,
Derek M
Scroll down to the ‘site or domain:’ box and paste in the url for Wings, ie,
http://wingsoverscotland.com
As you’re looking for a post from April this year, scroll up to the ‘last update:’ box and select ‘past year’ from the drop-down menu.
Click on ‘Advanced Search’, or hit the return/enter key and you will get two hits.
The second is the page with Derek M’s posts from 9th April. (Link below.)
BTW: his actual username is ‘DerekM’ so if you do a CONTROL-F (windoze) or COMMAND-F (Mac), you can type DerekM into the search box and find his posts on the page.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
I’m not going back to redo the Google search for ‘DerekM’!
8=)
@Yesindyref2
Tried that, lots of results!
@Tackety Beets
I didn’t know there was such a thing as a Baxters festival. Beet & cranberry juice unusual combination and bottled in Italy, now that’s some carbon footprint.
Could we do a crowdfunder to send the Labour party to Dignitas So they could just die with some Dignity. link to youtube.com
sensibledave
Would you describe John Pilger as being “devoid of humanity”?
link to johnpilger.com
A great link, CameronB B.
You should post this on a new thread if you get the chance. Not much traffic on this one now.
CameronB Brodie a:15 am
You wrote “Had the Nazis not invaded Europe, Auschwitz and the Holocaust would not have happened. Had the United States and its satellites not initiated their war of aggression in Iraq in 2003, almost a million people would be alive today; and Islamic State, or ISIS, would not have us in thrall to its savagery. They are the progeny of modern fascism, weaned by the bombs, bloodbaths and lies that are the surreal theatre known as news.”
Assuming all of the above was true,and maybe even agreeing with it, I find it difficult to understand your conclusion. You appear to arguing that we did bad things once – so we shouldn’t do anything good – out of some sort of act of penance. Isn’t that like saying I am ashamed of myself that I bullied people once – so now I refuse to intervene if I see others being bullied?
So Kezia’s PROMISE to have a Trident debate at the impending Branch Office Conference has now become MAY have a Trident debate.
Anybody in need of a godd laugh should have a look at the ‘super new revamped’ scotsman.com which the editor seems to think is the best thing since sliced bread – it’s as big a shambles as every other previous attempt at producing what they laughingly referred to as an improvement.
When is somebody going to come along , put JP out of their misery,take Scotsman Publications off their hands and turn it back into what it once was – a newspaper.
sensibledave
No Dave. The above is not penned by myself but internationally renowned journalist John Pilger.
What I am saying is that NATO has been the cause of many of the humanitarian disasters since WW2, so your primes that it is a force for good, is groundless.
Heard about NATO’s Operation Gladio (a 30 year terrorism campaign waged against European civilian by NATO backed terrorists, in order to encourage a right-wing political agenda in post-war Europe)?
First draft of Corbyn’s remarks on Scotland in his big speech today …
link to moflomojo.blogspot.com
CameronB Brodie 9:43 am
You wrote: “What I am saying is that NATO has been the cause of many of the humanitarian disasters since WW2, so your primes that it is a force for good, is groundless.”
I haven’t mentioned NATO – and therefore have not tried to argue that NATO is a “force for good”. You are projecting.
My personal thoughts on specific matters are my own – not NATO policy. I happen to believe, for instance, that if 10,000 Yazidis are trapped on a mountain top facing murder from the ISIL hoards – that our armed forces should be sent to intervene to prevent the genocide. That issue sits on its own. Our response should have nothing to do with WWII, or our intervention in 2003 in Iraq, or 9/11, or 7/7, or Syria, or anything else at all – it is simply a question of do we intervene to save those 10,000 souls in that specific circumstance – or let them die. Same with the Libyans and the Bosnians.
You, I believe think we should not have intervened on behalf of the Yazidis because of our sins of the past.
Foreign Policy is a hugely complex subject that, evidentially, is fraught with difficulties and inconsistencies. However, some issues embedded in those hugely complex scenarios are also very simple. Saving the Yazidis was an example of a simple issue – and I will defend our actions all day long.
Lets agree to disagree Cameron.
Nana , Yesindy, BDTT , thank you.
I’ll get on it .
Sorry Nana , I should have typed Baxters Festival of Running .a Short Kiddies run , 5k,10k & Marathon.
A packed Bught Park, thousands taking part.
Very recommendable for any Winger out there who enjoy some fresh air.
sensibledave
No, I’ll not let it rest because you’re talking mince.
Would the Yazidis have found themselves in peril if the west (NATO) had not created the environment that spawned Daesh? No.
Would the Yazidis have been in peril if Daesh was not being funded and trained by the west (NATO) and Salaphist Gulf states? No.
Is it a moral crusade to slay an evil of your own creation? No.
Dave, for one apparently as naive as yourself, I don’t think you do yourself any favours by repeating what the BBC told you. Just a suspicion. 😉
CameronB Brodie 11:32 am
You wrote “No, I’ll not let it rest because you’re talking mince. Would the Yazidis have found themselves in peril if the west (NATO) had not created the environment that spawned Daesh? No. Would the Yazidis have been in peril if Daesh was not being funded and trained by the west (NATO) and Salaphist Gulf states? No. Is it a moral crusade to slay an evil of your own creation? No.
Dave, for one apparently as naive as yourself, I don’t think you do yourself any favours by repeating what the BBC told you. Just a suspicion. ;)”
OK Cameron, lets get into it then.
1. “Would the Yazidis have found themselves in peril if the west (NATO) had not created the environment that spawned Daesh?
… dont know, – it is irrelevant to my position. Your ridiculous logic that NATO may have caused the problem somewhere in the past – so we shouldn’t try to help the Yazidis, even though we can, is preposterous, illogical and unfathomable.
2. ” Would the Yazidis have been in peril if Daesh was not being funded and trained by the west (NATO) and Salaphist Gulf states?
… dont know, – it is irrelevant to my position. Your ridiculous logic that NATO may have caused the problem somewhere in the past – so we shouldn’t try to help the Yazidis, even though we can, is preposterous, illogical and unfathomable.
3. “Is it a moral crusade to slay an evil of your own creation?
Your premise is totally wrong. Saving the Yazidis was not a moral crusade – it was just the right thing to do.
On the generality of your points, you seem to use the word “you” (meaning me) and “NATO” interchangeably Cameron. You are as responsible for NATO policy as I am – i.e. if you voted in any of the recent elections then, almost certainly, you voted for a party whose policy was to remain a NATO member. Every UK government in the relevant past has been a supporter of NATO. Every party represented in the most recent GE were in favour of being in NATO – including the SNP.
By all means make your argument for not being in NATO but why single me out as being responsible for all that is wrong in the world – any more than you and anyone commenting above?
I am guessing that your stance on NATO is at odds with almost every other commenter here Cameron. Certainly Ms Sturgeon, Mr Salmond, Mr Sheppard et al have all vocalised their policy to be in NATO – or have I missed something?
So, in summary, I respect people’s right to be conscientious objectors, pacifists or even cowards. However, your stance is unfathomable to me. You, it appears, take the stance that we have no right or responsibility to act in a humane mannner to defend innocents when we can now – because of our sins of the past. You also seek to smear those who choose to care about those innocents (i.e. me and many others here including Heedtracker I recall) with motives that are impure – without any evidence.
I rather suspect that your politics with respect to an Independent Scotland make you want/need to demonstrate that you are at odds with everything “Britain” has ever done or does. That is your right Cameron – but it makes you look ridiculous.
Just to cut through all of this, please tell me which party you are going to vote for at the forthcoming Holyrood election – because I am not aware of any party that shares your views on these issues.
sensibledave
So I’m unfathomable? Not heard of Hegel? Problem, reaction, solution not ring any bells? Would one’s thumb hurt if one didn’t hit it with a hammer?
Re. voting for a party that supports NATO. Sometimes one’s own priorities are subordinate to a bigger picture. The SNP has been the only real potential vehicle to achieve independence, so I have held my nose and lent them my vote.
As far as compassion is concerned, I think you are perhaps conflating hypocracy with humanitarianism. We’ve broken your leg but we’ll give you a crutch. The middle-east would not be in flames if the west had not set it alight. This is the elephant in the room that you appear desperate to ignore.
The west/UK (NATO) needs to stop destabilising the middle-east and give democracy a chance. This does not appear to be on the corporatist-NATO agenda (see Syria).
Re. the future. Barring any major policy disaster, I shall support the SNP until Scotland is independent. I’ll play things by ear from there.
CameronB Brodie 1.20
1. You wrote “Re. voting for a party that supports NATO. Sometimes one’s own priorities are subordinate to a bigger picture. The SNP has been the only real potential vehicle to achieve independence, so I have held my nose and lent them my vote.”
Ah, so your motives are pure when you vote pragmatically – everyone else’s are despicable and endorse all the policies of that party.
2. You are repeating yourself when you wrote “The middle-east would not be in flames if the west had not set it alight. This is the elephant in the room that you appear desperate to ignore.”
… nope, never ignored it. I said it was irrelevant to a specific circumstance where Yazidis are sat on a mountain top, facing certain death at the hands of ISIL. As I understand it, your position is we should have let them die – because the reason that they were in peril is because we created the situation. Which is an interesting line of logic – but not one I follow.
3. “The west/UK (NATO) needs to stop destabilising the middle-east and give democracy a chance. This does not appear to be on the corporatist-NATO agenda (see Syria).
I do not believe that NATO has a policy to destabilise the Middle East. Why would they? I suppose it is possible that every voter in every country who elected a government that was committed to NATO membership is a warmongering B*****d and you, uniquely, are the only person that is “moral” – but somehow I doubt it.
4. “Re. the future. Barring any major policy disaster, I shall support the SNP until Scotland is independent. I’ll play things by ear from there.”
… so having a policy of being a member of NATO (warmongering, Corporatist, murdering, interfering clods that they are) – is not a reason not to vote for a governing party.
I would be interested to know what you consider constitutes a “policy disaster”!
Too late, I see that I am wasting my time with you Cameron.
sensibledave
Yep, your here to cause disruption, so stroke off.
CameronB Brodie at 1.56
?????? You insisted on prolonging the discussion when I tried to call a halt a couple of times.
I trust you will lay into all the other SNP voters on here and lecture them on their imperialist, warmongering support for the SNP and lecture them on their direct responsibility for all of the ills in the world?
On the other hand, I rather suspect you will continue to display the gob-smacking hypocrisy you have demonstrated to me – and not bother???
Whatever.
… I’ll take that as a win thank you!
Imagine what you will.
JC and JM are following the establishment whip.
Who cracks the whip? Secret service? Washington?
PS what’s with Current ye@r * 3.4???
[…] A week ago, I watched John McDonnell’s message to the people of Scotland, and found myself flabbergasted at his hypocrisy. Apparently, the best advert the Shadow Chancellor could find for his new brand straight-talking, honest politics was an egregious litany of mealy-mouthed slurs on the voting record of the SNP. […]
The SNP threatens not only Britain’s national unity but also our independence. It wants to submerge us into the EU and it also wants to end our independent nuclear deterrent. Recent polls show that most Scots back Trident. The SNP and the government agree that we can’t afford both Trident and welfare.