There Is No Plan A
Posted on
January 14, 2020 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
So it’s finally official: Boris Says No. He’s formally done the thing that we’ve all known he was going to do ever since he became UK Prime Minister last July.
So what’s the stunning, game-changing counter-response we’ve got for him, having known for six months that this was what he’d say and had all that time to prepare for it? What’s the stroke of strategic genius that all those SNP loyalists insisted we had up our sleeve and just weren’t revealing until the key moment?
“We’re going to wait for however long it takes for the Westminster establishment to accept that another referendum is inevitable.”
Brilliant. What a plan. To the barricades, everyone.
Privately there does seem to be a realisation among some at Westminster that Johnsons position is unsustainable for how long though is anyones guess.
A bit like SLAB’s I think.
link to www-tmp.thenational.scot
I think we will find out at the end of the month.
Just posted in old thread.
Breeks says:
14 January, 2020 at 12:40 pm
“ …The Scottish Government will set out our response and next steps later this month when we will ask also ask the Scottish Parliament to again endorse Scotland’s right to choose…”. N. Sturgeon.
Seek another fucking mandate. Jesus wept.
How about a vote of no confidence in Nicola, then force a Scottish Election and stand on an Indy ticket?
Just because it appears there is no plan, it doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
Ha Ha Ha. Boris has played a blinder, just ruling out indyref2 as per the Tory manifesto in 1 letter as indyref1 was once in a generation and other issues need addressing, while Sturgeon makes May look decisive in response.
Is there not some interest in the preceding paragraph – that they will set out their response and next steps later this month.
As for Plan A, it has become so increasingly obvious that it would happen that it really cannot have surprised anyone. But was it not a step that had to be taken? Is it not consistent with Sturgeon’s other actions with regard to WM and in particular Brexit – we tried this, we tried that, we tried everything we could but they just would not listen. This is all part of a piece if you look closely enough.
However, re Plan B, there will indeed have to be one, but at the same time it has to be realistic. Arguing for UDI is very romantic but how likely is it to be successful? It’s pretty clear from their actions toward the Catalans that we are not going to win support from the EU, and probably not any other international body either. However reluctantly they give this, I suspect that agreement with WM is not optional but a necessity. Note this does not necessarily mean a referendum – I still suspect the Czechoslovak model has relevance.
My guess for their next steps is that they will go to law. As many have I have read the article in this morning’s Herald. McHarg and McCorkindale are serious commentators, but theirs is a legal opinion and on most matters – particularly on one as substantial as this – there will be lots of opinions, so the Herald’s certainty is typical but not necessarily well founded. That said, I suspect they will lose as it will eventually get to the Supreme Court which has been clear twice in the last three years that the HoC is sovereign.
At that point, the campaign has to move entirely to the political and even the extra-parliamentary sphere. If Scotland has to become ungovernable to get WM to listen then they would have brought it on themselves.
“Is there not some interest in the preceding paragraph – that they will set out their response and next steps later this month.”
None whatsoever. What are they waiting for? We knew this was coming, the “next steps” should have been ready to announce the second Johnson issued his refusal.
Actually, Stu, I suspect that the barricades is where this is headed.
I’ll not hold my breath, at my age I don’t have a lot left.
But on the good side I don’t have a lot to lose so any action needing to be done will not be a problem.tbh what can they do to a bunch of old pensioners?
It never ceases to amaze me that there are goodly amount of fuckwits who come online and claim it’s democratic to shut down democracy, like that fud above.
It would be much easier to converse with a chimpanzee.
And that is the whole point. It is fine, you living outside Scotland to call for people to go to the barricades. That is precisely what we cannot do.
As someone who lived in Ireland in 1968 and saw the drift to civil unrest and then murder, I have to simply say that there is no kenetic answer to the refusal of the UK government to grant Scotland an opportunity for Independence. Scots killing Scots and putting people into black bin bags is not how to solve the problem. The Republic of Ireland is still suffering the legacy of the divisions of the War of Independence.
The majority of the people in Scotland said no – they were wrong and stupid and short sighted, but for whatever reason they voted to keep their chains, and there are still a majority who vote for Unionists parties. Yes we may change their minds with a well run Yes Campaign, but that opportunity isn’t going to happen soon. Put simply there is going to have to be suffering under the Westminster Government before there is release in an Independent Scotland.
Being aware of the fact that we have to use peaceful means what do we do?
Well the first thing is that Brexit will bring its own rewards. When the fishermen are done over and the Farmers robbed they will be angry. They will see that they have been conned. When there are riots in the streets of England – where the new Tory MP will fail to keep the people happy.
There will be a hard Brexit at the end of the year. So many of the Tory promises will be shown to be vacuous. It is then that we begin to engage in a true campaign.
We simply go to the UN. We claim decolonisation, by that time the UK is so diminished that it has few people who will support it.
How long will this take? I don’t know, but I’ve been looking to an Independent Scotland for over 50 years. I can wait, but the alternative of going to the Barricades is simply foolish and counter productive
.
“however long it takes”
Well that does seem to be the right approach if you are settling in to be the devolved government for the foreseeable future and then some.
This makes Baldrick seem like some Machiavellian super-genius.
HYFUD
“£350,000,000 per week for the NHS on the side of a bus and I’ll die in in ditch”.
If “once in a generation” is all you have? you truly are a FUD.
NS doesn’t know what to do.
It’s galling. She should never have accepted May’s now is not the time.
The Cons were a minority gov, May was under intense pressure to get a deal.
Hit them when they’re down.
Now, Boris has an unassailable majority.
We’ve been let down and badly.
The SNP knew it would always be ‘no’ from Westminster
That there will be no change until the SNP hold the balance of power there.
The cynic in me wonders whether everything since the Brexit referendum has just been political posturing.
The cynic in me also wonders whether this is all about winning another term in Holyrood in 2021.
I would argue Sturgeon has won this battle ?
Called Boris’s bluff and got the response she expected…
“once in a generation” is hardly a credible response if UK has any pretense of being a credible democracy. this is weak and unsustainable attempt to kick issue into the long-grass.
if BoZo was politically astute he would grant IndyRef2.0 immediately (… his current tactics simply increase prospect of independence longer term – Scots can see what is happening),
Throw them another indeterminate date and keep them quiet. As many of us guessed, that’s most of us at this stage in the farce: it’s business as usual from the S.N.P.. I wonder what Saturday’s marchers will make of the new Plan B as they quaff their Lem-Sips and shiver.
You’ll get shit for telling it like it is again Stu. If you were FM of Scotland today, what would you do next? Cry in a corner? 🙂
I can think of two good reasons for waiting till the end of the month but I’m not going to spell them out here.
It is frustrating but we do need to take the steps if Bojo
Confirming Scotland isn’t a country and what the people
Want or voted for is irrelevant.
Next we get pulled out of Europe against our will.
Then we probably request a seat at the Trade negotiations table with the EU
Something we can guarantee will be knocked back.
At that point we confirm that we are being held against our will so we need to take
Bojo to the court of human rights.
Several Hundred Westminster MPs, Cabinet Ministers and their Prime Minister declared at Indy Ref 1, The only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote No.
They guaranteed it!
So I take it that this guarantee is valid for a generation!
More than 10% of the No votes came from that Vow so Indy Ref 1 is completely invalid, nul and void
Come on Nicola ……no more mandates. The people want independence so take it. No more ‘diplomatic’ language . Tell Boris he’s a liar …tell him he promised he would be dead in a ditch….so why isn’t he? Fight back!
And as for the 48 MPS – walk out
Be careful what you gloat over
Stu Your prediction that there would be no Indyref2 in 2020 has been proved correct.
I’m with Breeks on this one. Why do we need Westminster’s permission to hold a referendum. I know the Scots Parliament keeps voting on the right to have one but we are in a Union with England and the Sovereign people of Scotland keep voting the SNP in Uk, Scottish Parliament elections and Local elections with overwhelming majorities unseen by the U.K. Unionist Parties at Westminster.
So what do we (and the SNP) who now represent the people of Scotland’s do.
The Scottish Government needs to proceed with legislation for an Independence referendum and just get it done as it has the Sovereign right to do so as Breeks keeps on posting here. We are in a Union with England and have the a Sovereign right to decide to leave that Union when and how many times we the people of Scotland wish to do so.
Westminster do not have the right to decide the wishes of the Sovereign people of Scotland and its elected representatives.
Scottish Government resigns, forcing a Scottish General Election.
SNP wins the election preferably with an overall majority – and refuses to take-up the role of government. Minority Tory Government takes over – Everything they bring before Holyrood is then defeated by the SNP majority – thereby making Scotland ungovernable.
Then, something has to break, and we just might get a referendum.
We have to leave nothing short of an armed uprising as unthinkable. We have to think out of the box, and we have to make the Tories even-more reviled than they currently are.
Sooner rather than later, they will realise, for all our riches, Scotland is not worth the bother of keeping it subjugated and let us go.
The question is: how long will it take for the penny to drop to the Tories, who are particularly thick, we must never forget.
Anyone have a cure for chronic deja-vu?
🙁
Stu Your prediction that there would be no Indyref2 in 2020 has been proved correct.
Hey dee doo – it’s January 14th.
No-one needed to be Nostradamus far less the the Brahan Seer, we all knew this was coming. Anyone living under a rock on the planet Mars knew this was coming. I’m fairly sure my dead great Aunt who voted No, knew this was coming.
Of course this should have been tested the moment May said it wasn’t the time and someone should have gone to court. Unfortunately for 3 years or so those who should have been leading the charge were busy trying to prevent Brexit – a noble effort right enough but one doomed to failure.
Unless someone has built an exhaust port on the surface which leads to the main reactor for the union – I fail to see how waiting it out, hoping for a farm boy with a one in a million shot, is going to work. Because people grow bored, they get bombared by propaganda and question themselves, they get used to the status quo and instead of rising up they just moan about it.
Everyone and I mean EVERYONE in Europe is waiting for Scotland to delcare independence and rejoin the EU. I have friends in Germany, France, Denmark, Portugal all asking “Why is it taking so long?”
Yet here we are scared of our own shadow. Don’t get me wrong I know the fear – if a second indyref is lost the cause is doomed for more than a generation. And I get many might fear the outcome because of postal voting antics (See my Dead Great Aunt who voted No, She lived in a Care home and had Dementia but still managed to vote somehow – perhaps someone “helped her?”).
But we aren’t going to win indepedence by just waiting it out.
Maybe post 31st of Jan the EU will officially say “Well if Scotland wants to rejoin the EU they get fast tracked” that would hopefully get things going – but I doubt they will.
So just like Leia’s call at the end of Last Jedi went unanswered so too will SNP requests for help from the EU. So it’s going to be up to the people to show up and sort this out. Like Bannockburn. It might take more than words and marches, and we should all accept it won’t be easy and pretty. But we need someone to tell us that truth and get one with winning the argument and the actual Independence.
Gary45% Boris is putting more money into the NHS as promised
Edward Andrews,
I don’t think he was ACTUALLY calling for people to go to the barricades, no more than I was. It was an ironic dig at the uselessness of the SNP under its current leadership, and it’s fair comment from where I’m standing.
AS long as the narative remains with Johnson with the support from the media, then we will not move forward. We need to change that narative and challenge the lies of Johnson,Media and British state.
Chuck this ‘Referendums Criteria Act’ into the mix…
link to twitter.com
Effijy 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last month despite Brexit, there has been no meaningful change since the 55% No vote in 2014. Boris knows that and Sturgeon knows that, her aim is to stay First Minister, not call an indyref2 she likely loses and then lose her job, perks and salary as Salmond did in 2014
So, I reckon that in Bute House this very minute, there are numerous discussions being had, numerous telephone calls being made and so on in an attempt to quickly formulate something that kind of looks as if they had a ‘Plan B’ all along, but which also looks credible enough to be sold to independence supporters.
Yet another ‘mandate’, LOLOLOL!!
We’re being fucking duped!! WAKE UP!!
I’ve long suspected Nicola Sturgeon privately has no intention of achieving independence.
She & Ober Gruppen Fhurer, Pete Murrell have secured a cosy power sharing position at the apex of a devolved government.
If she holds a referendum and loses, it’s game over. She’s finished; out of office.
If she magically somehow secures a referendum and wins, she’s out as well.
Why? Voters in a newly independent Scotland will default to traditional parochial lines and drift back to Labour, Lib Dems or whatever newly formed parties materialise.
She’s had 3 years to take the UK Gov to court to test authority over a Section 30 order, knowing all along that whomever sits at No.10 would invariably refuse.
The letter of refusal from Boris Johnson today came as no surprise and neither does a lack of Plan B from Ms. Sturgeon cos there isn’t one.
An independence referendum ain’t happening in 2020 and anyone who says otherwise including Ms. Sturgeon is a bare faced liar.
The only option left is indeed a visit to the courts but that could have been resolved years ago and even then, there is no guarantee that the court will find in favour of an approval. And even if it did, you can be sure as the sun will rise tomorrow that the Supreme court will be asked to quash it.
So what then?
Well, independence is never gifted. Ask America, India, Kenya etc. You have to take it. And always illegally. Freedom isn’t cheap or easy.
The question is; are there enough Scots willing to suffer the ugliness to get what they want? I’m not so sure. Despite Tory ideology & it’s grim effects, life just isn’t miserable enough for a majority of people yet.
I suggest either putting the idea of independence to bed or finding the courage for mass civil disobedience. I suspect too many would rather sigh & switch on the telly.
Doug Bryce says:
14 January, 2020 at 1:00 pm
“once in a generation” is hardly a credible response….
You’re right Doug, “once in a generation” isn’t a credible response, it’s a downright lie.
No one in Scotland was ‘promised’ that the Indyref was a ‘Once in a Generation’ event. It was the personal opinion of then First Minister Alex Salmond when asked about it in an interview.
‘Once in a Generation’ doesn’t appear on any official documents…. It isn’t anywhere to be found in the Edinburgh Agreement but it hasn’t stopped the Unionist parties from claiming that it was a ‘promise’ or a ‘vow’ to the Scottish people, and the tame so called ‘journalists’ have never called out the lie whenever they bring it up.
There were plenty of ‘promises’ from the Unionist side, all of which have been broken.
The question is, what do we do now?….
Blockade the nuclear base on the Clyde.
There are all sorts of things that we can do there to make life difficult and it would get a lot of publicity.
I predict that all will change for the better for Scotland being independent in Europe on the 1st of February.
The only way I’ll vote for the SNP in may 2021 is if they make their mandate to declare UDI or immediate dissolvement of this disgusting union.
Socrates McSporran: 1.07
That would play straight into Westminster’s hands and lead to direct rule.
We, the peoples of Scotland have to make Scotland ungovernable under Westminster. Holyrood is our Parly and we have to defend it. It’s the Scottish Office, or whatever Viceroy Jack calls it these days, that we have to blockade. Pathetic Quay wouldn’t go amis either.
Johnson has made his decision personal using the ‘once in a generation’ nonsense from words used by the FM and Alex Salmond as an excuse as there is no credible reason to refuse a S.30.
Make no mistake this is down to the SNP failure to refute this each and every time it was brought up so now it has become ‘official’.
As Johnston has equated the SNP with the entire Independence campaign, then Independence as a primary aim must take centre stage now. Time to create a political party or group with independence as its only goal. The Yes movement has to move away from being viewed as merely an affirmation of supposed SNP aims.
Graham Harris Graham 1.13pm. I suspect too many many with the IQ’s of walnuts would rather sigh and switch on love island,gogglebox, strictly or some other such mind numbing sh***. ?????????
@edwardandrews the majority of Scots did not vote to keep their chains, stop insulting us.
The majority of Scots born here voted yes, and many others, like EU citizens voted no because they believed the lies and many people love being British and will never change their minds.
Obviously they’ve said in the previous paragraph..
But, as I’ve said, over and over to anyone who’ll listen, you can’t go to plan B until plan A has been tried.
It’s harder to be patient at my age, I hope I’ll see Independence in my lifetime but will I live THAT long? Like many I was crushed by the result in 14. If there’s another referendum I want it to be one we’ll WIN!
Support will have to be overwhelming and we HAVE come SO far in just a few years. The alternative to us being willingly granted a referendum wouldn’t be pretty. The worst elements in government and security have barely begun to act, we need to be careful of them, they’ve done all this before and are itching to do it again. But will the public have the stomach for this kind of thing on the British mainland? NB I’m talking specifically and ONLY about the actions of those working for the government here.
The Scottish government need to be a lot more sleekit, Westminster have a thousand years of being overlords over many nations who they conquered, but they never have conquered Scotland, the United Kingdom is a Union between two separate countries, just leave dissolve it we don’t need it no more this is the 21st century, time to move on, time to get the rest of the world on our side, playing by Westminster Rule’s is nae going to get us anywhere.
I suspect 2020 is not going to be a wonderful year – sigh!
Pretty blunt stuff as expected from WM with probably a money sweetener for Scotland coming in the next year on shiny things to lure voters away from notion of independence and “see we really care about Scotland” they will say.
The 2021 Scottish election is their next target, hoping to overturn the wafer thin majority the SNP and the Greens have managed to acrue in the last few years. If they can do that then they will think the Union is secured for a while.
List vote initiatives must be explored and turned to our advantage for the next vote.
Can’t see a new ideas to break the deadlock any time soon unless those ordinary folk who at the moment are undecided and show no interest in the country’s future start to wake up and get active. But you never know!
I’ll probably just be still on the twig next year so bring it on. 🙂
Capella says:
14 January, 2020 at 1:02 pm
I can think of two good reasons for waiting till the end of the month but I’m not going to spell them out.
——-
No, let’s spell one of them out, Capella.
Let’s allow this colonialist annoucement of the death of democracy in Scotland to dominate a few news cycles first before we respond. Give the Scottish people time to mull over the authoritarian nature of Johnson’s reply.
THEN a few weeks later hit back with the SNP’s response, to dominate yet more news cycles. We have an absurd uphill climb when it comes to the MSM, so let’s make maximum use of the few opportunities we get to get our message across to soft Nos.
Boilerplate responses like Nicola’s above are fine for now. Plus there’s a lot in that response that’s just undeniably true. Stating the obvious here, but it DOES matter that Yes continues to climb in the polls so that we’re *permanently* in the lead. That transforms the entire political atmosphere. So there’s no harm in Nicola cheerleading this as she’s done here.
If those final couple of lines were the entirety of her response, it would indeed be worrying. But that’s not the case.
The legitimate time for fury will be if those next ‘steps’ are announced ‘later this month’ (only 17 left) are indeed nothing more than “We’re going to wait for however long it takes for the Westminster establishment to accept that another referendum is inevitable.” If that happens I’ll be joining the angry brigade on the (metaphorical) barricades.
But for now I have no issues at all with that SNP response, either in what it says or what it doesn’t.
Game on, now. In the epic post-indy TV dramatisation to come, the soundtrack gets John Williams dramatic at this point.
Time for the YES movement to take over. Any SNP MP who doesn’t
list ALL the Unionist /Tory promises at every turn should be ashamed of themselves. This ‘once in a generation’ thing was not denied and killed off and look what happened.
@HYUFD
Englishman gloat that democracy in Scotland has been over-ruled by PM with no mandate from the people of Scotland. And before you start the percentage shit, using the FPTP system of Westminster there are 81% of elected MP’s from Scotland, and 55% of MSP supporting an independence referendum.
Johnson has less than 50% support for his withdrawal agreement, most voted against him, even in England. But gloat away just now, I’m not so sure you will be soon.
@ Unionist Media BDSM Club – that’s a third good reason 🙂
mandate, mandate, mandate, mandate,
Anyone see a pattern developing here?
Let’s get in the ring and bruise the fuck out of his knuckles with our face.
Or maybe time to sack the manager?
I’ve noticed in the media today that more airtime has been given to the story (Than that of denying Scots a democratic right to vote)that those who voted to leave the EU, want Big Ben to peal out continously on the 31st of January as a sign of the nations joy at leaving the EU.
SNP MPs to Edinburgh please.
No need to wait until 1st Feb, it’s now official, so time to pack up and jump on the train. Any SNP MPs waiting until 1st Feb are indecisive…..any sitting longer are Tractors.
BTW February 1st is Imbolc, an ancient Celtic festival celebrating the return of the sun. I intend to celebrate that.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Capella,
As I’ve posted on here along with others, the SNP is considered a threat to the Union that triggers the attention of Britain’s Secret Service.
There is no plan the SNP can have that is not known by them.
You were boasting the other night about the size of your IQ, perhaps you can put it to use and tell me why I’m wrong.
P.S.
If it involves advanced whispering techniques, don’t bother.
@doug, we elected people we trusted to get the deal done and keep us in the EU as promised or to give us a choice with #indyref2
You can’t blame the electorate, we’re up for it, our elected lot are not.
We need a new strategy or a new leader.
Think of the number of promises that have failed to materialise under her stewardship.
HYUFD says:
14 January, 2020 at 1:13 pm
“Effijy 54% of Scots voted for Unionist parties last month despite Brexit, there has been no meaningful change since the 55% No vote in 2014.”
Then there should be no fear in confirming this with indyref2 and really killing off indy for years.
“Boris knows that and Sturgeon knows that, her aim is to stay First Minister, not call an indyref2 she likely loses and then lose her job, perks and salary as Salmond did in 2014”
I think you may be right here though.
I’m not the most patient of people at the best of times and my body is slightly trembling with anger after reading that impotent response to the predictable.
I want to jump on the bandwagon of those criticising this seemingly inept approach but something’s niggling away at me to hold fire just that wee bit longer, to the end of January to see how the ScotGov respond.
As far as i’m concerned she’s already mislead us once and she’s got more mandates than you could chuck a stick at but if her ‘end of month’ response is not progressive and robust enough she’s finished as far as i’m concerned. It will be time for meaningful changes.
I’m convinced all her recent jaunts to various EU members/leaders were not for the stated public reasons but to secure certain issues and that she may be getting guidance from our future EU partners. So for now i’m holding fire for another 2-weeks then i expect massive moves forward.
[…] Wings Over Scotland There Is No Plan A So it’s finally official: Boris Says No. He’s formally done the thing that we’ve […]
I wish people would stop banging on a about soft nos in 2020 – if they haven’t been won over by now, they never will.
Time for courage – time to gamble. We have won over all the soft nos we can, the remaining ‘soft nos’ are in fact, shitebags, who only follow strength because they lack so much of it themselves.
It’s time for strong, decisive, leadership.
Over to NS – Now IS the Time
What if this is still Plan A? If the game all along was to deal with not only Brexit but force an official denial of S30 in order to set the stage for forcing a referendum through.
A faint glimmer of light,
link to legislation.gov.uk
7(1)International relations, including relations with territories outside the United Kingdom, the [F6European Union](and their institutions) and other international organisations, regulation of international trade, and international development assistance and co-operation are reserved matters.
(2)Sub-paragraph (1) does not reserve—
(a)observing and implementing international obligations, obligations under the Human Rights Convention and obligations under [F7EU] law,
(b)assisting Ministers of the Crown in relation to any matter to which that sub-paragraph applies.
So if it can be shown that holding a referendum comes under the international obligation that supporting the right of a people to self determination is, then it certainly isn’t reserved regardless of whether an S30 would be needed or not.
At a minimum it means that unless Westminster springs a lock on their interference in devolved matters then Holyrood can trim and make fit for purpose in Scots Law any legislation to meet treaty obligations rather than simply accept a solution concocted at Westminster.
@ Breastplate – I wasn’t “boasting” about my IQ. I was countering Stu’s assertion that I must be “thick”. That is a put-down I won’t accept. The issue was arithmetic i.e is it possible to hold a referendum in 2020. I don’t see why not.
I know Stu has taken Libby Brookes word for gospel and Libby Brookes has taken the Electoral Commission recommendation for gospel. (That there should be a 6 month “lead in” period AFTER the legislation is passed and BEFORE the 10 week referendum period).
But Mike Russell rejects that. The question has already been exhaustively tested in 2014 and since. The Scottish Government has agreed only to the 10 week referendum period, which is a standard timescale specified in the representation of the people act.
I take the view of the Neil Johnston, election specialist at the House of Commons library who relies on the opinion of The Director, Deputy Director and Researcher at UCL Constitution Unit.
Here’s his view on the time needed to hold a second BREXIT referendum in the UK, pop 65 m. Answer – 22 Weeks or 5 months (could in fact be speeded up)
link to archive.md
See also the UCL report.
link to constitution-unit.com
Why on earth the Electoral Commission thinks Scotland should take over 46 weeks to hold a second referendum while the UK only requires 22 weeks is a mystery.
Fucking woke-Nats. This is what happens when you rely on those who are part of the problem. If the SNP’s leadership had a better appreciation of diversity, equality, human rights and the law, we could have avoided a situation of constitutional enslavement. The law is meant to defend the public from excessive authority, not as a means of their enslavement.
Racist patriarchies don’t tend to dismantle themselves and Westminster is a racist patriarchy. The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house.
The optimist in me thinks waiting for UK to formally leave EU, special deal for NI but none for Scotland visible and questioned, and finally statement from EU early Feb on ease of future membership should firm up support. Clarity of choice for those who previously were waiting with false hope that Brexit would not happen.
A couple of Opinion Polls with Brexit and far right Con government in place around mid Feb showing Indy majority would be helpful.
Can’t see any point in wasting time with court processes when final decision will be with UK Supreme Court. This is political not legal.
Straight to Advisory Referendum through Scot Gov in mid 2020 with independent (non UK) observers. Need more Yes votes than 2014 Nos. Then declaration of future sovereignty by Scot Gov and some kind of International forum like UN to mediate.
Let’s get on with some action.
Socrates MacSporran says:
14 January, 2020 at 1:07 pm
Scottish Government resigns, forcing a Scottish General Election.
We have to leave nothing short of an armed uprising as unthinkable. We have to think out of the box, and we have to make the Tories even-more reviled than they currently are.
———-
I like your suggestion, SM, and those final lines too.
On which note, let’s not forget the Scottish Digital Covenant: link to digitalcovenant.co.uk
Or that AUOB are now discussing civil disobience more openly every week.
Also some momentum on Twitter now for the suggestion that as Plan E or F we could offer London a share of NS oil revenues, then rejoin the EU and be both independent and richer than we’d be remaining in the Union.
In the same spirit of spitballing (nothing more), there’s an argument that now the ‘gold standard’ has been rejected by our colonial masters there’s less of a need for any kind of referendum (‘As with Brexit we tried our best to reason with WM about a referendum but they weren’t having it, so we’re going another route’).
Let’s go back for a moment to Thatcher etc acknowledging that a majority of WM SNP MPs would secure independence. They weren’t saying that that applied to any one GE, but instead to *any and every* WM election. In other words, it *was* at one point deemed acceptable, even by our most extreme adversaries, to keep going back to the well over and over for independence. And let’s not forget either that many Yessers such as Pete Wishart are terrified of the next indyref because of the implications of losing.
So how about the SNP now turn *every* Holyrood election into a plebiscite on independence? Not just this next one, but every single one that takes place until independence is secured. That becomes permanent party policy.
And when the Unionists squeal about us going back to the well over and over, we simply point them to Johnson’s refusal of a referendum and Thatcher’s acknowledgement that that well could be drunk from anytime we wanted. No way would Unionists boycott a Holyrood election the way they may well boycott an indyref without an S30 behind it (or even more enjoyably, *some* of them might boycott it and thus ensure an SNP landslide). Plus this would also help kill off the ‘once in a generation’ stuff. We’re now saying to them ‘Yeah, we ARE going to keep doing this repeatedly until independence is secured. That’s now party policy. We have the mandates to support it. Try and stop us.’
And then there’s your own suggestion and all the others now being made on social media. It would greatly help our cause, I think, if we could stop thinking of different proposals happening one after the other (A then B then C…) and more in terms of total war on all fronts with many of these different plans going ahead simultaneously. Some of them are mutually exclusive, of course, but many aren’t.
Stoker,
I agree that the 1st of February will shine more light on the subject, we will be in the process of leaving the EU officially which should enable the EU countries to make their position on Scotland known to the world.
I hope we have made plenty of friends.
We don’t need legal action to get a referendum on independence:
We need legal action to assert the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.
If we, the people of Scotland are sovereign, we don’t NEED a sovereign state. WE are the sovereign power, not the government, monarch or parliament or other aspects of a state.
(Whether people want Scotland only or Scotland as part of the UK state to be the governmental state, is for this argument, irrelevant).
The state, whether it’s the Kingdom of Scotland or UK State, is legally required to respect the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.
The issue is that in 1707 the Parliament of Scotland disregarded this and acted constitutionally unlawfully by forming the UK Union without the consent of the people.
The UK State’s UK Parliament ( and the Scot Govt) and EU continues to disregard the will of the people too or simply fails to consult them.
All democratic indicators show that the majority in Scotland wish to remain in the EU. The people are sovereign. The Scottish Govt, UK Govt and EU must respect that. Of course they aren’t.
So, the answer is court action to assert and uphold the sovereignty of the people of Scotland that we already have in law.
I and many others believe the law in Scotland shows Scotland’s people are already sovereign. Voting for independence and creating or re-establishing an independent Scotland state would be an exercise in sovereignty NOT the creation of sovereignty. Nice to have in my opinion and preferable to the UK but, first things first: Uphold our sovereignty in court.
——————————
Of course, if Scotland’s people can assert sovereign power WITHIN the UK Union. Thus, having the power to veto or amend UK legislation, the result will be the dissolution of the Union ASAP by those who rule in the UK State.
Marydoll wrote on 14 January, 2020 at 1:35 pm: – “This ‘once in a generation’ thing was not denied and killed off and look what happened.”
Very true, and annoyingly so, but see if it had been ‘killed off’ Unionists are that retarded and inbred they’d still bang on about it. Just take a look at the home guards very own Fudrick further up thread @ 12:47 pm. It knows the reality but continues to troll folk with it because London spivs continue to use it. They have absolutely nothing worthwhile to offer. 😉
Capella,
I agree with you that it is possible to have a referendum in 2020, the probability is something we might disagree on.
Stu shouldn’t have called you thick.
My point to you is that it’s illogical to believe the SNP have a secret plan.
Gorbar
The conditions that Scots can expect may well swing further support for us, but once we’re out of the EU, Scotland will find it much harder to seek protection from law that is impartial. Brexitania will further isolate Scots from the ethos and effect of international law. We make it much hard for ourselves that way,
I have a cunning plan.
Instead of AUOB have another nice day out keeping the pubs busy, howzabout they take their 80,000 marchers and march on Bute House.
When Sturgeon answers the door, the marchers tell her to either get her finger out and start being a bit more pro-active in this independence malarkey or they’ll vote Tory at the 2021 Holyrood elections and vote the SNP out.
Scotland has a Tory government already so what does it matter if we vote for them or not?
The only thing politicians are concerned about is votes, so threaten to take that vote away from them and you’ll soon see some change in attitude.
So, there’s my plan B.
HiFUD
80% of Scottish MPs are SNP.
Has no bearing what percentage of a vote you get at Westminster
It seats that count.
We all know you are a mental unionist go play on one of their web sites.
We have a Sovereign Nation to rebuild after 300 years of mismanagement.
@ Breastplate – If you read some of the rubbish people are posting on here then even you must concede that, if Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t have a secret plan, then she is the only person in Scotland who doesn’t have one.
Sturgeon doesn’t want independence in her watch as she is not capable of negotiating the transition and the thought terrifies her.
This is getting us nowhere and many of us are fed up at the lack of passion and strategy emanating from the SNP government.
Capella,
Know what, we’ll agree to disagree and I salute your indefatigability.
Fundraiser by James Kelly for an indy poll. This is badly needed, troops. link to gofundme.com
So the Fudster thinks it’s funny to block the only democratic route to the will of the people
Will the Brits ever learn
Remember these words of wisdom Mr Fudster
First they ignore you
Then they laugh at you
I have to wonder why people on here think that taking our claim of right etc., to the uk and European courts would help our cause ask the Chagos islanders or the Palestinians what good they have done for them the powers that the courts rule against just ignore their ruling unless it is a ruling in their favour then it becomes international law of course the whole thing is a farce … It is a true saying the good and just lie in the dust and tyranny rules while the truth is buried in an unmarked grave welcome to the real world
Best be getting your WingsoverScotland Political Party organised big man ! Maybe call it the ”Reasonable and Independent Party” so nobody twigs that it’s you me and the rest of the ‘wingers’ making up its composition.
Much as I’d like to see the SNP, Greens, and YES movement come out swinging immediately, given the nature of politics I doubt if that would make any difference to the battle of wills and wits (not much of the latter on Westminster’s side) between Holyrood and Westminster. Whilst not keen on having to wait I accept that the FM has to observe the rules of the game until such time they offer no benefit in terms of progress towards independence and international approval.
Johnson’s letter is, as Lesley Riddoch stated, risible in its content. This indicates quite clearly that Westminster has no valid argument to put forward and will lie through their teeth, initiate any action that will further their case, and disparage the Scottish Government at ever opportunity. So, what’s new? Only the fact that now everyone in Scotland and interested parties south of the border and overseas will know that. It wil no longer simply be the stuff of blogs, Twitter, and Facebook. Even with the legacy media and the BBC downplaying the matter it will percolate into everyone’s thinking and at the end of the month it is highly probably the FM’s next announcement, another vote in Parliament, and leaving the EU will neatly coincide. This confluence of events might not demolish the movable goalposts and hurdles set by Westminster but they should certainly help align the shooter’s line of sight.
In the long term the Union will not last but I, like many in my age group, would like to see Scottish Passports in the hands of our children and grandchildren before we expire. We, along with tens of thousands of new Scots can’t afford to wait too long and I doubt if the FM would like to lose the votes of the latter. I’d therefore reckon matters will (in political terms) speed up. If there is no referendum called this year (seems problematical unless called before May) then the 2021 election will be an independence election as this is the only other option that could gain international acceptance despite the opposition, bluster, and bluff of Westminster.
Much more preferable would be an agreement to hold a referendum if the necessary compromises were not undubly onerous so we should wait a wee bit longer and see what NS has up her sleeve (there ought to be something as she has stated she thought long and hard about what to do when Johnson turned down her initial request).
Interesting that his second paragraph begins with a direct lie, this is an official government response, they surely can’t be this stupid. The legal opinion, timed to precede Jawbaws response smacks of the ‘ Scotland was extinguished ‘ opinion which preceded Indy 1.
I think this more about trade negotiations than a realistic hope of preventing Indy 2.
And still, despite the mass of evidence to the contrary, we still have people speaking about some fantastic strategy or other yet to be unveiled by the S.N.P.that’ll change harsh reality itself. The S.N.P. has allowed its energies and ambitions to be corralled along with Scotland’s legitimate political interests by a gang of English public schoolboys with access to the National patronage warehouse. Why is that simple truth so difficult to grasp? There isn’t and never was any likelihood of a Plan B materializing.
Scotland’s economic resources will be on the table in Brexit trade deals so Boris cannot ‘allow’ Scotland to muddy the waters by him agreeing to another Indy ref…this would f**k up his plans and would cause uncertainty in any potential trade talks …how can one trade away another country’s resources when potentially they may , in the future, not be yours to trade away?…. that is if they decide to become Independent from your Brexit UKnotOK….So timing WAS everything….we have held off and then ‘requested’ at THE most inopportune moment as far as the Tories are concerned…I say ‘we’ but maybe mean ‘They’ as in you know who.
Meanwhile some Labour leader candidates, as per , show their allegiance to Boris’s Brexit Britain by maintaining their ‘winning formula’ in Scotland in continuing to uphold the notion that the (non) Union must be upheld…oh and for added measure portray nationalism a la Scotland is actually a quest for isolationism and division….the finger on the pulse party…NOT.
I had a wee trawl through the prominent ‘liberal’ minded remainers twitter accounts this morning and in respect to Boris’s ‘refusal’ to Nicola to hold another Ref…well let’s just say conspicuous by it’s absence would be apt in describing the non mention of this CURRENT state of play in the constitutional question…colour me surprised…NOT….but then it’s not about THEM and THEIR quest to remain in the EU it’s about US so why would they bother to mention it….pesky Jocks..don’t they know if WE leave the EU so do THEY..end of.
Is this stalemate…f**k knows…I know not what the SNP’s plan/s is/are on this…where do we go from here…what now…after all do we not elect people because we assume they will do what we want them to do by electing them…we have had talk now we need action…if we are stagnant then that will ensure the continued path we will be forced to travel down a la Tory…….Boris wants us to think this is checkmate so it’s up to Nicola and co to prove that they, the Scottish government, have an initiative to remove this threat to our democracy….and rid us of this toxic (non) Union once and for all…Now Is The Time…well actually the timing was always right it was the taking that was the problem….over to you SNP…your move…AGAIN.
Lots of talk about democracy but the one thing that is as plain as can be
Is that it is plainly undemocratic for English people to have a vote on coltish independence
Scotland’s independence is a question for Scottish people
Not for English people
If a majority of Scottish people want Scotland to stay part of the U.K. then Scotland should stay part of the U.K.
What we have at present is England with English votes for English questions and
English votes for Scottish questions
There are over half a million English people living in Scotland
The total votes in Scotland in the recent general election were 2,759,061
England get about a fifth of the total votes on Scottish independence
It’s just wrong and undemocratic for people from the country that controls Scotland to have a vote
Craig Murray has just posted about this on his blog, everyone should read it.
Blair Paterson
It isn’t possible to obtain justice until one presents oneself in front of the law for due legal consideration. If that is beyond the wit of the SNP leadership, then their not the ones for the job, IMHO. I just want someone to defend my human rights. Is that such a despicable reality to hope for?
I’m shocked … shocked!
– no one could have predicted this apart from those not in a coma for the past 3 years. No blame then, really.
“once in a generation”, eh?
– the talking heads once had a song called “once in a lifetime”
– they played it more than once …
so what’s your point caller?!
link to youtube.com
terence callachan
Drop the ethnic nationalism please, it’s not compatible with social democracy. Best leave the cultural chauvinism to the BritNats. 😉
Correction: the bill regulating the question and the ten week referendum period is the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. Not the Representation of the People Act as I said above.
Question testing
The Electoral Commission has a statutory duty set out in
Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (PPERA) to assess any referendum question proposed in legislation for its ‘intelligibility’: are the options clear, simple and neutral?
The way the Commission assesses a question is not set out in legislation. It can consider the wording ‘in such a manner as they may determine’.
The final decision on the format of the question rests with Parliament.
link to archive.md
If I was FM, I would be delighted that BJ fell into my trap and said no.
Now I could hold a referendum without Westminster interference, and call in UN observers to monitor the referendum.
Breastplate @ 2:37 pm
Craig Murray has just posted about this on his blog, everyone should read it.
link to archive.is – Craig Murray, talking sense.
If Capella is right then we will have an answer to all the hand-wringing in a couple of weeks.
A permanent Independence Camp set up in George Square wouldn’t go amiss. Maybe one in Edinburgh too.
On a side note, maybe GCC could change the name of that square.
@ Breastplate – I agree – an excellent article by Craig Murray. With short video of his speech at AUOB.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Juteman
I really do hope that is the plan but see that as politics. Politics can not determine what law is and is not respected. That’s not how liberal constitutionalism works. Brexitania will be established on the foundations of constitutional violence, and offers little hope for Scots to ever connect with their legal sovereign personality. Without a respect for “cultural rights”, you can’t expect to benefit from the rest of your legal rights. Brexitania will offer little hope of escape. I am not paranoid.
Breastplate said at 2:37 pm:
” Craig Murray has just posted about this on his blog, everyone should read it. ”
For all new readers of Wings,unfamiliar with the Links at top of this page here it is:
Craig Murray:
“Westminster Cannot Block Scottish Independence”.
link to tinyurl.com
What doubly angers me is all this gutless prevarication isn’t even about Independence, but merely a referendum about Independence, and a referendum that would be tainted by the same BritNat propaganda and indoctrination, barefaced lies and cheating, as the 2014 referendum. That’s like asking Jimmy Saville to look after the kids.
This is a wild goose chase, with no control whatsoever of the narrative. We didn’t lose a democratic referendum in 2014, we bungled in with our eyes wide shut and got mugged. We learned NOTHING, but now want another shout at getting mugged again, but this time, we’re being mugged about having a another shout at being mugged. There must Civil Servants down in London who look at Scotland as if we’re as dumb as sheep. “Once in a generation! That’ll fox them!”. THEY’RE NOT EVEN FUCKING TRYING!
The solution MUST be a Constitutional face off where Scottish Sovereignty and our democratic rejection of Brexit is one side of the argument, and Westminster’s disrespect for Scotland, the Union of Equals, Scotland’s Remain Mandate, and now, arbitrary changing Scotland from a Democracy into a Dictatorship forms the other side of the argument.
ONLY legal intervention and Constitutional interdicts can protect Scotland, and that precious 2016 democratic mandate which fixes Scotland on a different trajectory from the rest of the UK. The first of February is TOO LATE. The subjugation is done. The emphatic democratic majority for staying in Europe will be academic and worthless when the clock strikes midnight, and ALL we will have is a lame duck Scottish Parliament in name only, staffed by feckless cowards celebrating their own brilliance for having squandered the greatest chance of liberation Scotland has ever seen in over 300 years. They have “fought” Brexit for three years without even securing victory in any capacity across the whole spectrum of Scotland’s humiliation. They haven’t secured a godamned thing.
They demand mandate after mandate but haven’t a Scooby what to do with a mandate once they’ve got one.
If we leave this in the hand’s of Nicola and the SNP, they won’t be finished until Scotland doesn’t actually have a Sovereign Constitution and our ancient Nation doesn’t technically exist.
What a fucking mess.
Demonstrations and marches do not work in the UK. The history of such events in relatively modern times e.g. nuclear disarmament, the Iraq war reveals governments pay scant attention to extra parliamentary agitation no matter how many 100ks turn out.
A Scottish government which squares up to the system, ceases to be cooperative, ceases to be simply ‘devolved’ and takes the powers it needs thus provoking the much chatted about ‘constitutional crisis’ would be more effective.
That of course would demand from the leadership a new perspective on the current construct, as plainly the old one has now little to offer.
Scottish nationalism must be seen and experienced as a real threat.
At the moment Johnson and co perceive it as a little local difficulty.
The problem with Craig Murrays assertion is that 55% of Scots voted against independence. That may well have changed now of course, but what if it hasn’t?
Oops.
Mist001 says:
14 January, 2020 at 3:06 pm
The problem with Craig Murrays assertion is that 55% of Scots voted against independence. That may well have changed now of course, but what if it hasn’t?
——————————————————————
Sadly true
It’s all very well saying Nicola needs to take decisive action but she can’t do that unless she can be sure she has the people behind her
Does she have the people behind her ?
62% of Scots oted to stay in the EU.
Of course, the alternative to taking court action to assert sovereignty in court, is simply to assert sovereignty by our actions and force the UK State to prove the actions are unlawful, that UK Parliament is sovereign.
The one issue where Scottish opinion has ALREADY been repeatedly established is on EU membership.
Scotland voted 62% remain.
The Scottish Parliament voted against Brexit.
Scotland has consistently voted pro-Remain or non-Brexit.
eg the only clear pro-Brexit main party at the recent UK General election was the Conservatives ( Scottish Labour was pro-EU). The Conservatives gained 25% and Brexit party 0.5%.
So, less than 26% voted for Brexit parties. Approximately 75% voted for pro-EU / non-Brexit parties.
This could be used as the issue on which we assert sovereignty.
you cannot take someone to court because you think that sometime in the future they may break the law. any legal challenge to wm by definition needed to wait for an official response. we have now got one
I suspected that, for all bojos bluster that he might just agree to a s30 but was not blind to the possibility he would refuse. camerons opening gambit to salmond after we won in 2011 was “there isnt going to be a referendum”
but i didnt know for certain how bojo would react, why? cos i aint fukcin’ clarevoyant. hindsight is the only exact science.
for all on this thread saying “I knew it”…………no you didnt
Mist001 says:
The problem with Craig Murrays assertion is that 55% of Scots voted against independence. That may well have changed now of course, but what if it hasn’t?
————–
polls had support for yes at about 48/49% before the ge. we havent had a full scotland poll since.
i think voters now realising they face another 10 years of tory rule will concentrate minds and is worth a 1 % swing to yes
wouldnt you like to know?
Thursday September 17th. This year.
Don’t know about embdy else, but that’s when I want Indyref2.
Other folk have other dates, some (inc Rev obvs) insist that it cannot be this year. All that aside, it’s the lack of a date, a target, that’s scunnering so many of us.
On Feb 1st, while Bojo is trying to throw a party, NS is going to have to make a statement. She can’t get the ‘gold standard’ indyref she wants, and that’s fair enough, she did try, but time’s up now – we want a date.
No more fannying about.
schrodingers cat
I think the constitution became defunct when Westminster approved Article 50. I suppose we’ll never find out for sure now.
Breeks says:
14 January, 2020 at 3:05 pm
What doubly angers me is all this gutless prevarication isn’t even about Independence, but merely a referendum about Independence, and a referendum that would be tainted by the same BritNat propaganda and indoctrination, barefaced lies and cheating, as the 2014 referendum.
——————-
The following doesn’t address your wider point, Breeks, but I’d like to address your statement that a second indyref would result in Shock and Awe II.
Not necessarily. The more Shock and Awe they try the more validity it gives the referendum, and from the Unionists’ POV their best bet may be to claim the referendum is invalid because it lacks an S30.
They’d be in something of a bind.
1. They could send in the troops to stop the referendum.
2. They could barely acknowledge it other than squealing INVALID! over and over, and thereby leave the field clear for weeks or months for YES to completely dominate the campaign.
3. They could attempt Shock and Awe II, which would be unlikely to have the same impact second time round and would risk validating the referendum.
4. Or possibly most farcical of all from the Unionists’ position, some mixture of 2. and 3., where a fair % of them boycott the referendum but the MSM also give us only muted propaganda compared to Shock and Awe I, which results in a Yes landslide given validity by that very propaganda.
Now, I know none of this will be to your strategic tastes, but it’s worth considering for those of us who’re fine with a second referendum.
Next stop…they turn their attention to Holyrood!
The gloaters may gloat, the detractors will do what they do, the general moaning minnies will moan, and what do they all say they want, get us another political party who will lose triumphantly because the current one isn’t fighting the way they say they want them to, but hold on a minute it’s not over yet, we’re not done just because some jumped up Englishman in a suit says so, that’s the very acceptance cringe we all complain about, the English say no so it’s all over, it’s not!
We expected them to say no, we expected them to talk shite and they have, big globs of it that not a person in Scotland should pay the slightest bit of attention to
Their whole legal response is based on *but a man said* then *a wummin said*
I just watched Michael Russell totally dismiss Johnson’s words as he added “Scotland will have a referendum” what that means is yet to be unpacked, but it will be in the next couple of weeks
There’s a lot of water to flow under the bridge even before February, perhaps now’s the time to be taking note of all those who are happy about Johnsons reply and the media who keep dwelling on his response rather than reporting the attitudes of the Scottish people and by that I mean not the set up vox pops interviews of Royalist Sectarians reinforcing the instructed media’s agenda, but the actual people
The opposition argue that support for Independence is only 50/50 so if you accept for a second that that’s correct then it’s statistically impossible as to why almost 100% of so called journalists and media in Scotland are Pro Royalist Sectarian Unionists
So any ire we might have should be firmly positioned with boots on their Arses
Journalism is supposed to be about informing the people of truths and defending their interests against corruption, the media in Scotland perform the opposite function on behalf of a foreign government in the same way they did to every colony the British ever ruled, reporting for a year that a pigeon got in a window and caused an infection that was the Scottish government’s fault is and was propaganda
The media in Scotland’s next job is to begin again to fill their newspapers and TV reports with that same propaganda to dipirit the people of Scotland into giving up because the SNP are no use, then the hinting begins with the TV being full of Labour party revival and how well Scotland will do with this new shiny party that talks Federalsm and how it’s the only way Scotland’s voice will be heard in England’s big real parliament, because you know it makes sense don’t you, Aye right of course it does
I’ve said before I have other ideas for the media in Scotland but arrest would likely follow rapidly if I expressed them here
Anyone aware of how this latest BritNat gambit is performing?
ben madigan wrote on 13 January, 2020 at 6:40 pm:
“A private members bill, the Referendums Criteria Bill [HL] 2019-20, is making its way through the House oF Lords. It concerns constitutional and parliamentary arranagements for referendums in the United Kingdom.”
“Quotas in the HOC and HOL for agreeing to a referendum are much steeper. For the referendum to be valid = or over 55% of regisatered voters have to participate; there has to be 60% voting in favour.”
“It applies to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. I think that applying to NI contravenes the belfast/Good Friday Agreement which states the cut-off for irish reunification in any “Border Poll” is 50%+1 assent. So I don’t see it gaining any traction there.”
“If it passes, it could well come into force for Sec 30 and Indyref2. I don’t know how much it differs in procedures from the current Scottish parliament’s Referendum Bill (Act?)and whether Westminster outweighs any Scottish regulations.”
link to publications.parliament.uk
link to twitter.com
@the revs twitter
link to youtube.com
roadhouse! – ya bass
O/T a bit naughty; a good larf, for morale
link to youtube.com
– for extra fun, show this clip to a millenial
Breastplate wrote on 14 January, 2020 at 2:37 pm:
“Craig Murray has just posted about this on his blog, everyone should read it.”
Thanks for the heads up. link to craigmurray.org.uk
Mr., Brodie my point was that the Chagos Islanders and the Palestinians did present themselves before the courts who found in their favour but Biritain and the USA have just ignored their ruling and will probably do the same to us
On the 31st of January the SNP need to call their MP’s back to Scotland then dissolve the Scottish Parliament. Immediately calling a new election to the Scottish Parliament purely fought on taking back control and getting Scotland its freedom back as an Independent nation. We have to go for it, doubt if we ever will have as good a chance again.
Have the higher echelons in the SNP the guts for a fight. I hope so, but we need more than hope now we need action.
Mist001 says:
14 January, 2020 at 3:06 pm
The problem with Craig Murrays assertion is that 55% of Scots voted against independence. That may well have changed now of course, but what if it hasn’t?
Oops
No oops. Scotland can elect to stay in the Union or leave it, that’s democracy. But you don’t have democracy at all if you don’t have sovereignty to underpin it enshrined in your Constitution.
It doesn’t matter whether Scotland votes for Union if it’s doing so as a sovereign entity making its own decisions.
You can be sovereign without being a democracy, but if you abandon sovereignty, then don’t expect your democracy to carry any weight because whoever is sovereign can overrule you.
The SNP have the cart before the horse, and argue that we cannot be Sovereign without a democratic mandate. That’s wrong. It is arguable we would need a mandate to leave the Union, but we require no mandate whatsoever to stop Westminster overruling the will of our sovereign electorate.
It is the SNP’s sloppy and casual ambivalence towards Sovereignty which created a degree of ambiguity which Westminster has just exploited to the full with minimal effort required.
The SNP might be Planning a referendum or elections next year, but Westminster has already headed them off at the pass by usurping Scotland’s Sovereignty and taking command over what Scotland can or cannot vote upon.
alasdair galloway says:
14 January, 2020 at 12:49 pm
Is there not some interest in the preceding paragraph – that they will set out their response and next steps later this month.
Need to take your word on what that rag says, Al.
I’m not a fan of Craig Murray’s normally, but he’s got this one definitely correct and it may be this is what Michael Russell was hinting at this morning
Hang on folks – Richard Leonard has replied to Boris Johnston. He is advocating—— HOME RULE!
There, you see, Labour has had the answer all along – for about a hundred and twenty years.
link to twitter.com
Just read Craig Murray, That’s what you call a plan of action.
Can anyone see NS doing this – naw me neither
“The problem with Craig Murrays assertion is that 55% of Scots voted against independence. That may well have changed now of course, but what if it hasn’t?”
I think support for indy might be higher, however, how long would you wait, until Westminster strips Holyrood of its powers, or until the union has other devious plans ready to implement against Scots.
No we go with it and build as we go, the Irish cause for indy if I recall correctly garnered great support after the British executed the post office indy fighters. We can’t sit and wait for it to come to us we must go out and grab it, public support will either follow swiftly or not.
Great changes are not made by the faint of heart. Are you reading this Nicola, I hope so.
liz
No wild sturgeon in Scotland only tame pet goldfish.
nothing i can disagree with craig in this piece, indeed, it may be time for the snp mps to walk out of the hoc now.
my only criticism, apart from the fact that much of what happens next depends on others, eg eu/un etc, is that this is a plan of action for diplomats and politicians
the question remains, what do we do? i still think we need to move now to a campaign of civil disobedience, see my definition of what i mean by CD on previous thread
Cunning plan number 2.
We are going to oulive them, becsuse that seems to be the only thing left.
Funny how you lost so many readers Rev who were furious at you for pointing out exactly this scenario at the time, and then they vented their anger at you on this vdry forum. Where will they now find comfort?
You are way ahead of the curve Rev. People should listen.
Hmm, some new Scottish film ideas regarding Scotland’s path back self-determination.
The Mandate Candidate
A Fistful of Mandates
For a Few Mandates More
I’m still gonna chillax till the end of the month to see what if anything transpires.
I can understand to a certain extent the SNP strategy thus far in slowly trying to win the hearts and minds of the 2014 soft No voters. That demographic don’t think like us so wooing them over with a reasonable softly softly approach was always going to be a bit frustrating to hardened Indy folks.
It’s wrong to say 55% of Scots voted against Scottish independence in 2014
People do not become a scot just because they live in Scotland for a while
If a person chooses to be a scot they do not have a process at present where they can change their nationality to Scottish
It’s insulting and factually incorrect to call everyone living in Scotland a scot.
Do call everyone living in England an English person
Or every person living in France a french person
No of course you don’t
It’s a peculiar thing to Scotland for some reason that certain people want to call everyone living in Scotland a scot
I mean a scot is a Scottish person ? Aren’t they ? Or am I wrong about that ?
If I am please explain.
So let’s get this clear
55% of Scots did not vote against Scottish independence in 2014
In 2014 a majority of Scots voted for independence but because anyone who lives in Scotland be it a day or a hundred and thirty years was able to vote on Scottish independence a majority of people in Scotland voted against Scottish independence
That’s not the same as a majority of Scots
Blair Paterson
Whats with the Mr., Brodie pish? You can knock that of for a start if you want to keep things civil. You appear to think that the failure of others to get their legal rights respected, is cause for Scots not to defend themselves from a majoritarian abuse of constitutional powers, and subsequent totalitarian authoritarianism?
IF there’s going to be Constitutional fisticuffs, and that much seems certain, there is every incentive for Scotland to strike fast and hard and secure decisive benchmark adjudications and definitive principles BEFORE we are dragged out of Europe.
There are grievous body blows for Scotland if we react slowly and allow Brexit to be suffered upon us.
If full on Independence is too much of a stretch for some, then as a very minimum, UK Sovereignty and the unchallenged passage of Brexit MUST be formally disputed ahead of the Brexit deadline.
So the ball is now in SNP FCs side of the pitch, how long will the crowd accept playing “keepie Uppie” before boredom sets in?
I accept Nicola is maybe still clutching the cards close to her chest, but surely some sort of “sovereign” response should have been at hand for this very situation.(None of us on WoS are politicians, yet we could see it coming.
The UK has the worst PM/Government in history, their “jugular” should have been severed today, the longer the delay from the Scottish Government the more likelihood they will get brushed aside with any demands, legal or otherwise. I still have faith in the road we are following, but its wearing thin in the party that is driving us. I will give them till the end of the month for real action to be taken, if nothing arises? then it will be cheerio.(life’s too short)
Forget the UN getting involved, they are pathetic at holding any country to task.
@ terence callachan
Who made the rules up for that referendum? That’s right!
Dan@4.20
Restless Mandates.
Four Mandates and a Funeral.
Around the World in 80 Mandates.
War of the Mandates.
Bill and Teds Bogus Mandates.
Guardians of the Mandates.
A Few Good Mandates.
In 1918 only 48% of Irish voters voted for , in effect, UDI.
The sad reality which Scotland must avoid is that it took a war to achieve same. That war arose from a local decision to attack on the same day as theDeclared illegal UDI parliament met. Avoid this trap
TheItalianJob @ 13:06,
Unless I’m Rip van Winkle, the new year has hardly started yet, let alone ended. So shove your fatuous sycophancy. We need way better thinking than shallow premature defeatism like this.
Gary45% @4:34pm.
International law has force and Scotland is not the Chagos Island. We are not a colony, we are (notionally) an equal partner under Treaty law. You can’t piss about with Treaty law without significant international ramifications. Westminster wants to make new trade deals, so would not want to be seen as a rogue state.
I’ll just post this again for Cappela from the Rev’s last post.
Kenny J says:
13 January, 2020 at 10:08 pm
And as for this crap about Don’t talk, She’s playing it close to her chist, etc, that you used to get from the SNP forever nutcases on here.
Christ, the SNP will have been penetrated 10s of years ago.
MI6 will know every f***** move being proposed. The SNP is a threat to the nation.
Remember they moved into the Communist Party HQ in London overnight some time after the war. Can’t remember, and copied all the data they could get. All my family would have been listed. They counted out and counted in all the guys, and women, who went to Spain at the ports, including a guy who would have been my uncle.
Remember the W. German administration before the wall came down. Every few months a plant would be uncovered. After reunification it was revealed Chancellor Adenaur,s ? right hand man had been a bloody E. German agent.
Secrets, the SNP will have bugger all.Remember the YES org. having an email “problem” in 2014. Nothing to see here, Sir. Plod has looked at it.
If they think Extinction Rebellion are terrorists, what the f*** are we.
@Gary45%
Chuckle. You’ve got me beat with that list.
I’ll gracefully concede and go and get the tea on, but leave you with…
Mandater – There can be only one.
Giving Goose says:
14 January, 2020 at 1:15 pm
Blockade the nuclear base on the Clyde.
There are all sorts of things that we can do there to make life difficult and it would get a lot of publicity.
A block-ship sitting on the Rhu Narrows would f**** their boats in and out. Water is 50 ft. if I remember.
Gary 45% and Dan
You forgot:
50 First Mandates
Braveheart Mandates
Carry On Mandating
Supermandates
Mandate Has Fallen
Dances With Mandatees
Die Hard With a Mandate
Mandatespotting
Mandate – The Musical
Mandate Actually
Further suggestions welcome.
Personally, I’M DELIGHTED!
Now the phoney war about IndyRef2 is over we can all get down to the serious business of the 2021 Holyrood Election and get campaigning on a single-issue SNP manifesto pledge to repeal the 1707 Act & Articles of Union with England.
We’ve got a better chance of winning >50% of votes cast/seats than we ever did on a rerun of 2014.
BRING IT ON!
schrodingers cat @ 16:02,
If political progress were driven by academic lawyers, we would still be inhabiting the 18th century. Thankfully, we’re not, neither in time nor in attitude.
As for Craig Murray, he has his own blog, so no need to bloat this thread with it, just link to the article, as is custom. Those who wish can easily follow through. Likewise for anything else.
@CBB
Looks like a
goodnot so good start to trade deal talks as reality hits home for UK.link to gov.uk
link to web.archive.org
Hey Kangaroo, hold off putting a shrimp on the barby and cracking open a beer for me, I’ve got a load of forms to fill in so may be some time…
Ian Blackford’s response to Boris Johnston. The Sottish Parliament is to make a response too.
link to twitter.com
@ Kenny J 4:51- of course the British Government spies. So do we. So what?
Cheer up you lot…
I’m not in the slightest bit surprised that Johnstone said no.
He could not have been seen to just capitulate at the first request.That would take hope from the British Nationalists voter’s that they had Westminster in their corner and sent them farther into whipped pup mode.
I’m a bit relieved to be honest that he didn’t say ” right ok let’s get this Indy thing done with”!
“We’ll get all the terms and conditions laid down and have a vote in the spring”.
What would Nicola have done then?
She would have had to agree and lose control of the vote or look like she didn’t really want a vote by arguing that it had to be on her terms, he would have looked like he was democratic and this bloody Union would have still looked voluntary to the unenlightened.
The British have been looking to the 2021 Holyrood elections for a few years now as their last best hope to shut down Indy! They’ve said as much often, and I’m bloody glad that’s still their game plan and they didn’t call our bluff.
I don’t know why Nicola choose to take so long force the No out of Westminster,but we have it now…And we are where we are.
And I don’t see any reason to panic because Johnston wrote it down….. Took him long enough…..
Now the conversation changes to a “let my people go mode”….We wanted a different argument from 2014 well now we got one.We don’t need to rinse and repeat the auld arguments,we not going to get caught up in pounds and pence when our very Liberty is in question.
( Which reminds me,why the hell should Our First Minister reply right away, he took his own sweet time,let them wait for a response. Take a bit of the shine of their Brexi in 2 weeks, while they pretend not to be worried 🙂 )
As to the MPs walking out… I’d support them if they did as part of a set piece and for a reason…. But considering the late night sittings and their willingness to change laws and back date them….. I think we need our MPs there to keep watch on what Westminster is actually up to.
As Capella said there’s two big event’s to get past and in addition there’s Holyroods response to becoming trapped in and not a part of the Union…. Because all those British MSPs have an election to win in 2021 too,
( although I’m still expecting my referendum this Autumn as promised, and will want to know the reason why it I don’t get it 🙂 ).
Those British affiliated MSPs.. that set of clowns, are,it seems, the UKs last best hope, the onus will be on them to win…..
And that’s what gives me the greatest hope….
We’re no done yet not by any stretch of the imagination!
If we haven’t had the Indy Ref by this time next year then we need to work to make sure the British lose Holyrood!
And that the SNP and the other winners have only one in their mandate, a very,very very clear statement of what we’re actually voting for…
Gary45% suggested on 14 January, 2020 at 4:42 pm:
1:Restless Mandates. 2:Four Mandates and a Funeral.
🙂 My 2 faves thus far, especially No2, hard to beat.
A few more suggestions:
The Hills Are Alive With The Sound Of Mandates.
The Wizard of Mandates.
2 Fast 2 Mandates.
The Silence of the Mandates.
Charlie and the Chocolate Mandate.
@ Liz g
Superb.
Dr Jim,
So far as I can see, you and I disagree on nothing material whatsoever except the question of whether Nicola can be trusted to genuinely go for Independence.
We can probably agree that in a few short weeks we will know the answer. I genuinely hope it turns out to be me who is wrong, as that would be simpler for the Indy fight that’s coming. But I fear my view is still with Stu on this.
Terence callachan 4.30pm. You know that,I know that, every man and his dog knows that. But dont voice it or you’ll be labelled racist and anti you know who.
The Empire Strikes Mandates. (Back)
The Italian Mandate. (Job)
Breaking Mandates. (Bad) (OK, not strictly a film.)
Battle of the Mandates. (Bulge)
Herbie Goes To Monte Mandate. (Carlo)
Back To The Mandate. (Future)
Raging Mandate. (Bull)
Stand By Mandate. (Me)
If y’all think that a head of a government, obligated to respect the will of all the people (s)he represents, can side with one half of the country and get away with it you don’t understand power.
If y’all think that the obstacle to Scottish Independence is BoJo The Clown you haven’t understood how the BritNazi Establishment works, on what timelines, through which methods, their aim and their weaknesses.
The only way for Scotland to gain its independence is to gift all of North Sea oil to the sociopaths in Westminster in exchange for Independence.
We all know that Scotland can thrive without North Sea Oil.
It’s also dirty and will drop in value because demand will fall.
Hand the poisoned chalice to the greedy cretins down south and fly.
That’s my plan B.
“And that is the whole point. It is fine, you living outside Scotland to call for people to go to the barricades. That is precisely what we cannot do.”
It wasn’t a call for violence, you daft twat. It was sarcasm.
I’m literally screaming inside. I’m already a vulnerable individual and would have hope for better protection of my human rights. Where the fuck does Scotland’s judiciary stand on this matter?
DRAFT REPORT
ON THE IMPLEMENTATION
OF INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS TREATIES
IN DOMESTIC LAW AND THE ROLE OF COURTS
link to venice.coe.int
“Hey dee doo – it’s January 14th.”
My offer of a bet still stands.
In the mean time and if you’re looking for something to do!
Can I suggest ( while Ye still have one ) writing to your MEP requesting that the EU be informed not to negotiate Scottish Resources with the UK Government as they are unlikely to remain in UK control very much longer…..
And after February the 1st, any and all bodies in negotiation with the Westminster Government….. If they won’t let our representatives in we can make representation directly.
Tell Each And Every Trade deal negotiators the UK is negotiating with assets it can’t guarantee it has access to for any length of time..
And any EU citizens … You should still have someone in the EU you can write to after the 1st.
If enough of us did it should make an impact…
* To my mind, so far, Craig Murray appears to be the most informed and makes the most sense.
* Throughout the Empire years the English Establishment has never exercised democracy in its dealings with its colonies.
It is not going to start now with Scotland after three hundred years of suppression and exploitation.
* England NEEDS Scottish assets and resources. The English Establishment will NEVER release its hold on Scotland voluntarily.
*Independence is Scotland’s priority. It’ll be nice to get it by way of the ‘gold standard’, but to get it by the silver or bronze ‘standard’ will be OK by me. We can improve on it later if it’s not the absolute best in the world independence.
Stoker@5.23 (Nice Selection)
Lets hope we don’t get to
101 Mandates.
“Stu’s assertion that I must be “thick”. That is a put-down I won’t accept. The issue was arithmetic i.e is it possible to hold a referendum in 2020. I don’t see why not.”
Sigh. There’s an article in today’s National which says we could JUST ABOUT do it in 2020 if the UK government agreed no later than April. It contains several qualifications about that timetable, saying it’s basically a best-case scenario and things could take longer.
Thing is, it’s premised on holding a referendum on the 17th of December this year, and holding a crucial referendum in Scotland in the middle of December is an idea that even a blind-drunk Baldrick would dismiss as too fucking stupid.
Would you really have our future held hostage to the weather? Neither December nor November is a credible date (October is pushing it), so the National’s timetable is now pushed back to February as the deadline for Boris to agree, at BEST.
If you think that’s going to happen, especially as the FM plans to dick around for another couple of weeks of January before she deigns to tell us her next steps, “thick” wasn’t nearly a strong enough word. But hey, I guess the National are just another bunch of MI5 plants or something.
link to archive.is
We could always try humour. Take the piss out of the Westminster Government and the Tories at every opportunity.
Let’s start by calling the new UK Government hub Nakatomi Plaza, rather than Queen Elizabeth House.
Corrado Mella
“If y’all think that a head of a government, obligated to respect the will of all the people (s)he represents, can side with one half of the country and get away with it you don’t understand power.”
Of all the pig-headed stupidity spouted by Sturgeon fans this argument infuriates me the most. So Nicola can’t work for Indy because she has to represent Unionists too?
Just like Boris can’t work for Brexit because he has to represent Remainers too? Like Thatcher had to represent the miners too? It is total bullshit. She is not the Queen Mother she is a politician elected on the programme of a pro-Independence party. She should get on with it.
Corrado Mella
The electorate does not determine the law. That’s mob rule, which leads to injustice and tragedy.
Like others on here I am extremely frustrated at bozos response and a follow up by that disgusting faux Scotsman gove or grovel
I have always supported breeks assertion of sovereignty and continue to do so , but what Craig Murray’s piece actually does is to combine our demonstration and assertion of our sovereignty , combined with the legal aspect of remaining within the confines of previously set out regulations and rules accepted by the international community and moreover proposed and ratified by wastemonster
As he also says it is questionable what bozo would do to oppose this declaration of independence but whatever may transpire would highlight that we will not get back in our box
Like others I am willing to be patient until Feb 1st and our forcible withdrawal from the EU but I sincerely hope Nicola and the SNP SG follow Craig’s route because it appears the road is at an end
Craig: your article makes a strong and compelling political and (effectively) legal case but for one thing – I cannot see that we have any justification to declare independence with no measurable evidence that it’s the will of a majority of the people. It would surprise me greatly if EU states recognised a declaration of independence on behalf of less than 50% of the population.
I cannot see a way to establish this without some form of vote, or at the barest minimum consistently >50% polling for a period not of months but of years. And the Catch 22 there is that, as I detailed last week, a purely abstract campaign has very great difficulty in shifting opinion.
To that end I think we still have to try the legal route and/or a plebiscitary election. The UK government blatantly cheating by changing the law if it lost in the Supreme Court is a highly plausible scenario, but it would give us a strong card to play with the international community.
All this is somewhat moot – like you, I don’t think the current SNP leadership has the stomach for any of it. They’d be very happy to fight 2021 on another platform of impotently “demanding” a referendum, and they’d be quietly content if they lost their majority, keeping them in power while giving them an excuse for failure.
But in the event that we were to get a new leadership, I think court-then-election is the only viable route. I’m not at all sure an election without even trying the legal approach would secure the required 50%, given how determinedly the SNP are alienating large sections of the electorate atm.
Gary45% wrote on 14 January, 2020 at 5:33 pm
“Lets hope we don’t get to 101 Mandates.”
FFS! Hell no! That’s not even funny.
A few more:
Groundhog Mandate. (Day)
The Sixth Mandate. (Sense)
Full Metal Mandates. (Jacket)
The Killing of the Sacred Mandates. (Deer)
It would surprise me greatly if EU states recognised a declaration of independence on behalf of less than 50% of the population.
agreed
Stand by Your Mandate
Mr Tambourine Mandate
When a Mandate Loves a Woman
This Charming Mandate
I Wanna Be Your Mandate
I’m Waiting for the Mandate
Street Fightin’ Mandate
The Mandate with the Child in His Eyes
I Could Never Take the Place of Your Mandate
I Am The Eggmandate
So today, the U.K. govt have acknowledged that
1) they would likely lose a referendum
2) they need us more than we need them
3) they absolutely intend to squander our resources in future trade deals.
So I’ve got the EBC news at 6 on at the moment, and BoJo’s decision to refuse a Section 30 order to the Scottish Government doesn’t even rate a mention!
It is the main story on (Mis) Reporting Scotland.
FYI, SGP is currently running a crowdfunder to commission an indy poll:
link to gofundme.com
Should please some of you at least. A chance to put your dosh where your mouth is. But could be timely given BoZo’s jail sentence to Scotland.
Jess Sargeant of the Institute of Government may well be right. But she is at odds with Neil Johnston, election specialist at the House of Commons Library. She adds weeks all over the place, for example, the time needed for the referendum period.
This is not correct. The 10 week period includes registration of lead campaigners and the campaign itself. Furthermore, the legislation process and the testing of the question should run concurrently.
See the Neil Johnston opinion I linked to earlier, and the UCL Constitution Unit opinion which Neil Johnston relies on.
link to archive.md
link to constitution-unit.com
As to the start date for the process, I think the Scottish government can just proceed without a S30. They asked for one, they wanted one, but if Westminster refuses then tough.
“As to the start date for the process, I think the Scottish government can just proceed without a S30. They asked for one, they wanted one, but if Westminster refuses then tough.”
Then I assume you’ll be taking my bet and making an easy £500?
Stoker@5.54
Mandate of Destiny.
I’m a little surprised by how much anger I, and others I know, feel by this wholly predictable response. The gut reaction is a lot more visceral than I expected.
In denying a referendum out of hand Johnson has painted a target on his not inconsiderable behind. I think he has all but guaranteed an SNP win next year and also ensured that Scotland is a place he would have to enter in a fridge and remain there for the duration of his visit.
Where we go next is the worry. I’m hoping there is a legal channel because when democracy is curtailed and election wins don’t matter frustration and trouble will ferment.
@Craig Murray 5:17pm
I agreed with the proposition you outlined Craig but as to the author of this blog’s credibilty or not I can’t answer that because I personally have never met him so any motives he may or may not have for any position he takes on any subject are his, but as he has no vote in Scotland I don’t concern myself with them
Anybody is free to guess what may or may not happen on any subject but this blog is a chattering place where folk express their opinions or guesses or thoughts, what it isn’t is a reflection of Scottish politics as seen by the people in the street, most of whom don’t know or even care about whatever folk on this blog say let alone recognise that it exists
You may not recognise that fact as you may not recognise the fact that no matter anyone’s experience of politics no one is psychic and no one else is in the position of being the First Minister, she is in the job and we as a Nation collectively voted for her and her party of government to do what we hope for, so until I hear from the people I voted for on the subject you’ll forgive me for not taking the word of anyone on anything till I know the facts and have them put before me before I judge the character of a person or persons whom I’d previously believed were of good character thus condemning my own previous judgement
You will not find a revolutionary in me until the time to be one is the right time, until then I will keep things light until it’s time for me to get dark, not the time of someone else’s choosing, I have some experience of that
I never under estimate those I talk to unless I know them or have done my research on who I’m talking to, the key being one doesn’t know who one is talking to on the Internet and an example could be I know you but you don’t know me so that conversation is not a secure one because you just told the world if they want to look at what you say and may wish at a later date that you hadn’t with your name and address all over it, you may feel fine about doing that, I do not
So if or when I ever did decide to act in a way that was contrary to the law I wouldn’t be telling you or anyone else that I couldn’t trust, surely as an ex beaurocrat you would appreciate that
Please know that I harbour no antagonism towards you, it’s not personal, it’s just a matter of trust
CameronB Brodie@4.50
I hope your right.
Lets see on the 1st Feb, when the “will” of the sovereign Scottish people is ignored by the dictatorship which rules over us in Westminster.
Will the rest of the world simply see us as a “Colony”?
Not long now, but I hope you are right.
“But in the event that we were to get a new leadership, I think court-then-election is the only viable route. I’m not at all sure an election without even trying the legal approach would secure the required 50%, given how determinedly the SNP are alienating large sections of the electorate atm.”
It’s worse than that. Enabling the encroachment of gender-ideology into legal statute, jeopardises open society in Scotland. The leadership may be in accord with the EU, but introducing anti-foundationalist epistemology into law, disables the potential for jurisprudence that is rationally coherent with empirical reality. If it ain’t rooted in ethical reason, law can not be effective.
….as a means of achieving justice.
@Robert J. Sutherland 6:08pm
Just beat me to it, Robert. Worth a wee donation just to get an early indication.
schrodingers cat says:
14 January, 2020 at 5:58 pm
It would surprise me greatly if EU states recognised a declaration of independence on behalf of less than 50% of the population.
agreed
If Westminster can recognise the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the Scottish people, why is it unreasonable to expect Europe to recognise the same benchmark?
Get Sovereignty in the bag, spike Westminster’s guns, then Independence becomes a formality.
@ Rev Stu – I’ve told you before, I’m not a gambler. I have better ways of wasting money. BTW I’m not a conspiracy theorist either but I do believe absolutely every public body is infiltrated by MI5. What else are we paying them for?
Talking of which, I’ve just taken a look at the Board of the Institute for Government. This think tank, whose researcher Jess Sargeant, is the expert The National quotes liberally, does not inspire confidence on impartiality.
link to instituteforgovernment.org.uk
It is just a matter of time before the Tories have to cave into pressure to grant the S30.
Calm down. Step by careful step under the wise guidance of Nicola and the SNP the demand for independence will rise to over 50% in every poll. In the meantime the SNP will keep on winning local, national and UK elections. With each passing week more unionist die than independanistas and more independanistas than unionists are added to the electoral roll.
The SNP should explicitly turn Hoyrood 2021 into Indyref2 and if lost, then very subsequent Holyrood and Westminster election until victory is achieved. Why are so many upset that Indyref2 won’t happen in 2020 when Holyrood 2021 is just around the corner? Look at how far the SNP has taken the cause of independence in the past 15 years – we have not won yet but my goodness by any reasonable measure we are well on the road to winning.
Just a wee bit of fun:
link to uk.news.yahoo.com
Stu
I agree with your basic point. That is why the very first act after declaring Independence must be to announce a confirmatory referendum. That is how democratic legitimacy gets stamped. But by declaring Independence first, you are renouncing any possible Westminster interference in, or blocking of, the running of the referendum.
It would be wrong to declare Indy without a referendum if Westminster had agreed to one. But Indy cannot be blocked by refusal to allow a referendum.
“Calm down. Step by careful step under the wise guidance of Nicola”
FFS.
One advantage of a confirmatory election at holyrood over a referendum with no s30 is that people are far less likely to boycott an election.
Nothing to stop SG holding an early election is there?
Either one of two things will happen, we either all sit back down and say, ‘Oh well’, or we all stand up and say, ‘Fuck this!’.
Craig Murray says:
14 January, 2020 at 6:47 pm
…But by declaring Independence first, you are renouncing any possible Westminster interference in, or blocking of, the running of the referendum.
Furthermore, I think I’m correct in saying that if the Declaration is made, and whether it is or is not followed by a ratification plebiscite, the Union is already dead, and even if the ratification plebiscite was to favour the Union, (god help us), it wouldn’t be in favour of “the” Union, but “a” Union, and would require a whole new Treaty of Union to be drawn up and agreed by both parties. The 1707 Union couldn’t simply be resurrected.
So, it really isn’t possible for a ratification plebiscite to reverse the decision. A confirmatory referendum is slightly different, but that’s only applicable if the primary Declaration of Independence is qualified or conditional, and in those circumstances preservation of the existing Union is still an option.
I would hope Scotland would know the distinction, and follow up any Declaration of Independence with a ratification plebiscite, not a confirmatory referendum.
I hope that SNP leadership appreciate that their apparent paralysis undermines respect for international human rights. And the Scottish judiciary appear eager to be complicit. Scotland truly appears to be getting fucked from both ends.
The Foundation of International Human Rights Law
link to un.org
Capella says:
14 January, 2020 at 5:05 pm
@ Kenny J 4:51- of course the British Government spies. So do we. So what?
WHAT.You have an insight into GCHQ, MI6, the Cabinet Office.
Oh do piss off. We now Nothing of their plans and war-gaming.
The office block next to the BBC joint. Maybe a mole that your no lettin on about.
STVs version of reporting as Colin McKay indulges in psyhchic imaginings “I don’t think the SNP have a plan B” he says
I’ll point out again this is not news this is propaganda under the guise of news knowing that people tune in to get information which is what the news is supposed to be about and not what a journalist thinks it might be or might not be then reporting that as facts
You and I and the horse next door can indulge in guesswork and blether it’s human nature but the news must not be allowed to pass their opinions off as news or it no longer is that
The BBCs offering was no better *reminding* us within a 28 minute period four times of Boris Johnson’s refusal but only once of Nicola Sturgeon’s response
The people are the judges of what they think, we don’t need to know what the media think, that’s not their job, they only have one vote each the same as the rest of us, by continually informing us of what they think is an abuse of privilege and we’re paying them for it
Will someone with legal authority please respect the rule-of-law. The supremacy and immutability of English law in relation to Scotland’s constitutional personality, does not allow for constitutional justice. As such, contemporary British constitutionalism can not be considered compatible with social democracy. Please get this sorted so that Scotland’s public may gain full and unfettered access to their legal human rights.
International Human Rights
and the International
Human Rights System
link to nhri.ohchr.org
@Scottiedog 6:53pm
You might be right the SG could have an election but right at the moment the gamble might be is everybody electioned out because you know what a trauma it is for folk to take ten minutes out of their lives to put a cross in a box and the media would be on that like flies round jam telling everybody how terrible a thing that would be
There’s some more shouting and tub thumping to be done first I think
Watch Jackson Carlaws reaction on the BBCs channel 9 programme tonight because he can’t help himself, his hubris and obnoxious big gub alone could see the most avid Yoon switch sides and gee up ours even more
I’ll repeat this post from the last item.
Here’s a tale most will not have heard.
1945, Britain, after the Japanese surrender, finds itself in control of the far-east, under one Mountbatten.
One of the countries freed is Vietnam. Now the French want Vietnam, French Indo-China, back under their colonial rule.
Roosevelt is against it, but he is tired, and sick, he gives in. In fact he is soon dead.
This is the bit that opens your eyes, a pre-run of Diego Garcia. To keep the Viet in their place, Mountbatten rearms the JAPANESE, under British control, to do just that. Then GB provides transport for the French forces to come out from Europe to recontrol the colony. And,the French were funded by the USA to do it.
Perfidious Albion, by Christ it is.
That is the way they work.
And I’ll add this bit.
And Uncle Ho didnae say, well, can we not talk about this over tea and crumpets.
Nicola should challenge Johnson to a TV debate on the sole topic of an indyref. If Johnson accepts, she’ll tan his hide. If he refuses, he’ll make himself look even more arrogant.
Backup plans or not The Scottish government is looking and is acting weak. They are not setting the Agenda and not taking strong actions. Their stated plan of action is nothing other than:
a) reactions
b) hope and wait.
I don’t see this changing any time soon. So rather than just moan about it the pro indy public need to take affirmative action instead and let the snp play whatever it is they have in mind.
My recommendation would be to go the ‘Democratic Tsunami’ route but keeping it civil.
a) Protest at major hubs with England eg Edinburgh airport
b) block or slow down traffic at a crawl at border crossings.
The Scottish and English Governments need pressure stepped up otherwise its business as usual. We need to make them believe that civil unrest will become a consequence and crises they need to avert.
Or are we all just a bunch of pussies?
Reposting the link to the fundraiser for James Kelly’s planned indy poll. £3600 raised in a few hours of the £4000 target, so let’s get it over the line. link to gofundme.com
Rev & Craig Murry
While I agree about the Scottish Government not looking to hold a referendum….
( And before ye say anything Stu I don’t bet )
I did see Mike Russell state in Holyrood that the Referendum Bill would have provision within it to speed thing up if the situation required it.
Didn’t see enough to work out what that ment.
But that’s why I’m demanding the 2020 referendum they assured us was happening or a bloody good explanation of why not!
Having said that I’d prefer they force an early Holyrood election,while they haven’t done too much damage to their support, and while Brexit and the Johnston “Declaration of Possession” is still fresh.
That would wrongfoot the lot of them. They’re all expecting this stand off to run and run. One election would bring it to a head fast.
Then move to Craig’s suggestions in some form!
I suspect that nothing much is going to happen before the 2021 elections……but we need to be prepared for them!
Stu, you have to bring forward the WOS Party NOW, so that in 2021, SNP will win all the non-list seats and WOSP win enough list MSP’s to eliminate the Tories and give an SNP/WOSP Alliance an Independence majority, without having to rely on the fickle Greens.
We need a fundraiser now and a launch of the WOSP by March. I’m happy to pay to stand as a list candidate in Angus!
Just a thought as to which nations would quickly recognise an independent Scotland.
Well, although it might offend some on here, there is that place around the Urals and overto the east, who are quite keen on Rabbie Burns, all the ex colonies in Africa, China, in short, any nation with a bit of a grudge to stick it to England. Egypt, anyone. In fact, possibly, anywhere British bodies are buried.
Right guys, £200 to go for J. Kelly.
SupermandateBrexitisatrocious
SNP is going to do fuck all.
Time for WoS Party for the list seats in 2021.
Baldeagle58 wrote on 14 January, 2020 at 6:07 pm:
“So I’ve got the EBC news at 6 on at the moment, and BoJo’s decision to refuse a Section 30 order to the Scottish Government doesn’t even rate a mention!”
Same at 7pm on the BBCNews24 channel. Demonstrating for the tenth-trillion time that the BBC in Scotland is *NOT* Scotland’s national broadcaster. It is that of an occupying foreign body, ie: London’s Westminster.
The BBC is a discredited and untrustworthy London organisation that does not have Scotland’s best interests at heart. It supports and promotes the interests of London.
What other country would tolerate this embarrassing amateur garbage?
Re the talk of just declaring our independence…the Loyalists and Bears would go berserk surely. They would take to the streets no doubt. However the world would see true British Nationalism in all its glory.
Mind you that’s a scary thought. Very scary.
Re the Scottish Digital covenant that I posted about yesterday on the last thread. I’ve received a response from the team:
Hi (my name),
Thanks for your e-mail. A Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) Page and a Privacy Policy will be published on the Website in due course, we’re in the process of completing the build of the Verification Process, Blockchain Process and finalising the requirements for The People’s Assembly before they go live on the Website, to ensure everything is captured for the whole Signature Process – this should hopefully address all your questions and alay any concerns you have over your data, many of which are shared by the Admin Team here and fully understood.
Hope this helps.
Peter
———————–
So I’ll keep an eye for those measures to be in place on the site and let others btl know when they are.
Stu,
Maybe a referendum on a freezing cold day in December might suit the forward thinking young folk of Scotland in securing their future.
According to Craig Murray the “once in a generation” statement didn’t appear in any official document, well in the Scotland’s Future document in Indyref1 it stated in clause 557 the following: “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”
You can hardly blame the Unionists for throwing our words back to us.
Of course, the Yes campaign should have said that it was up to the people whether there was to be subsequent referendums, which would have killed off the issue. Instead it is a potential millstone around our neck.
I was angry when I heard this sort of thing during Indyref1, because it was obvious we were not winning Indyref1 and, as has been bourne out, it was going to goes problems in getting another referendum.
It’s time for some strategic thinking here.
Plan B should be a consultative referendum in 2020, allowing the Scottish Electorate to confirm that the claim of right must be permanently enshrined in law recognising the sovereignty of the Scottish People through the Scottish Parliament to determine the form of government best suited to their needs.
A simple question is required with a yes/ no response if we can’t get a simple majority on that we’ll never win an IndyRef. That will further pressure the permanent transfer of powers until independence. Unionist abstentions would not negate the result of a consultative referendum.
How would a negative Tory/Unionist campaign land in Scotland denying our right to decide our own destiny? IndyRef then follows and the future lies in our own hands.
According to Craig Murray the “once in a generation” statement didn’t appear in any official document, well in the Scotland’s Future document in Indyref1 it stated in clause 557 the following: “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”
You can hardly blame the Unionists for throwing our words back to us.
Of course, the Yes campaign should have said that it was up to the people whether there was to be subsequent referendums, which would have killed off the issue. Instead it is a potential millstone around our neck.
I was angry when I heard this sort of thing during Indyref1, because it was obvious we were not winning Indyref1 and, as has been bourne out, it was going to goes problems in getting another referendum.
@ K1 – thx for the update. 🙂
Meindevon,
Someone posted a picture of the celtic fans and rangers fans for Yes and their banner. I can’t remember who posted it but I thought it was great.
There never seem to be a lot of them protesting at the marches anyway, so maybe and hopefully they are a dwindling group.
Meindevon @ 8.43
All the more reason to hold a Holyrood election on declaring the 1707 Union over in April, and Holyrood giving itself the powers to hold a referendum on a New TREATY of Union or Complete Indy 5 months later.
Let them “take to the street’s” leave them to it don’t confront or interfere…. And the damage they do will affect the up coming vote!
One thing I am sure of the Scottish People shouldn’t be held in this position of no resolution for another year.
That’s what did the damage with Brexit.
All the indecision and their parliament being reactive rather than proactive.
If they are going to kick off,let’s lance that particular boil before they’ve a year to plot it,and the British State plot with them. Also before EU rules end and during the distraction of the Trade Deal with Westminster would be good.
We deserve a resolution.
Well I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what our elected folk on the big bucks have been working on.
Soz if the movie titles idea distracted from the thread but a wee bit of a laugh needed as we endure watching this shitshow play out.
Here’s a few more and then I’m aff to watch a real film.
Rabbie Burns starring in Spidermandate
The Revolution Will Not Be Mandated
2020: A Mandate Odyssey
Planet of the Mandates
Indy-minded clones and the Mandate of Doom
Any person regardless of biological sex in Wonderwomandate
Flash Gordon and Ming the Mandateless
There are Rangers supporters who can’t take part in the marches in case they’re recognised by the idiots
My reply to Johnson – ” We are doing it for the next generation”
Craig Murray was warning about the intelligence services in 2015.
link to archive.is
I think Boris has unwittingly killed the UK today and like Stoker said its barely mentioned on the Beeb. From this day forth the UK will no longer exist. There will either be the Kingdom of England with Scotland as its little colony up North or Scotland says enough and the failing marriage is over.
Fraser McLaren @ 8-15pm
1) A WoS party would need a ‘Leader’ who is not tainted – the Rev can hardly claim that, he is ‘gold’ as far as those attacking any party he oversees. He would be torn to shreds by the media, and it means there is yet another party based in Englandshire!!
2) Internet ‘unknowns’ are exactly what we don’t want as ‘list’ MSPs – I don’t suppose the MSP remuneration is part of the reason to put yourself forward?!
3) The Rev is Nicola’s fiercest critic (since the Dugdale loss), so how would the SNP/WOSP ‘alliance’work out, do you think?
Dreaming!!
A Mandate For All Seasons
The Mandatechurian Candidate
Our Mandate In Havana
Iron Mandate 1 2 3
Repo Mandate
The Wolf Mandate
Rain Mandate
Earlier today i read about Bozo’s official response on the BBC in Scotland text service, the usual selective guff from them.
Five minutes ago i read the full official response and from the second i seen Bozo’s ‘Dear Nicola’ i couldn’t take the rest seriously even if i wanted to. Talk about childish handwriting? If that’s your private education then thank feck i dodged that bullet.
They’re having a fricken laugh aren’t they? Surely they’re not relying on the “You and your predecessor made a personal promise..” that the indyref was a “once in a generation vote” argument? A “personal promise”? Did i miss that? When and where did that take place? It all becomes even more hilariously insulting when taken in full context of the paragraph:
“You and your predecessor made a personal promise that the 2014 Independence Referendum was a once in a generation vote. The people of Scotland voted decisively on that promise to keep our United Kingdom together, a result which both the Scottish and UK Governments committed to respect in the Edinburgh Agreement.”
What a nerve referring to ‘The Edinburgh Agreement’ when the only side to break it was the BritNat Unionists with ‘The Vow’. That official response seems a rushed job to me. After-all, they said they’d respond to the request at the end of the month (January 2020) so what changed? What did they discover? Then Sturgeon replies to the knock-back by saying she’ll respond at the end of the month (January 2020).
Also, i’ve seen numerous references to a dodgy bit of undemocratic gerrymandering doing the rounds in the unelected undemocratic House of Corruption to change all future referendum criteria. How did that progress, anyone know?
Mandate films:
Mandate, the long walk to freedom.
Agree with:
“It would surprise me greatly if EU states recognised a declaration of independence on behalf of less than 50% of the population…..To that end I think we still have to try the legal route and/or a plebiscitary election.” @Rev. Stuart Campbell says at 5:53 pm
I suspect that one of the ways to achieve this would be an Early Holyrood Election (this year as opposed to next)
SNP could stand on a “Vote for us and we will End the Union immediately” single ticket manifesto (think the reverse of the Tories from Scotland’s “No to IndyRef2” one policy campaign.
This would be:
1. Feasible for Scot’s Gov to arrange (including an Exit Poll and use of International Observers)
2. Legally undeniable (Claim of Right upheld in WM etc.)
3. Likely to get >50% of the vote
4. Achievable whilst UK was still in the transition period of EU Withdrawal (thereby opening door to Sect. 49 before 31/12/2020 so the potential to re-join EU before Scotland actually leaves, bringing a lot of the 2016s EU Remainers who were 2014 NOs into the Yes camp).
Anyway all conjecture at the minute as in reality no material change has happened until 23:00hrs, 31st January 2020.
OK I’ll chip in:
Ali Baba and the 40 Mandates
Snow White and the Seven Mandates
7 Brides for 7 Mandates
Johnson had the mandate to do as he wishes.
Sturgeon for some inescable reason hasn’t.
Johnson wins, Sturgeon loses, back in your box Jock.
Simples !!
Robert J. Sutherland says:
14 January, 2020 at 6:08 pm
FYI, SGP is currently running a crowdfunder to commission an indy poll:
link to gofundme.com
thanks for that rjs. donated and he has reached his target.
I hope the poll is above 50%, it will give all of us a huge lift. btw stu, in light of this, i would wait till the 1st of feb before commissioning another poll now
Craig Murray totally nails the situation.
QUOTE “We have two alternatives now – we stand up for ourselves and our inalienable right of self-determination in international law as defined in the UN Charter, or we grovel before Johnson’s smirk and try various “legal” and “constitutional” avenues in terms of the UK’s utterly irrelevant domestic legislation. Which will get us nowhere, slowly.
The time has come for Scottish Independence. With a referendum denied by no fault of ours, we must seize the moment and take the Independence for which they will not let us vote.”
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Nicola Sturgeons coat is on a shoogly peg. I mean seriously, she will respond at the end of the month?? FFS. Really, FFS SNP. THE TIME FOR TALKING IS OVER.
Exceptionally upset at the SNP not doing anything.
I’ve now read the paper by Jess Sargeant on the second independence referendum cited by The National. It reads like an advocacy piece for the Westminster Government. It recommends all sorts of road blocks and standards designed to make an independence majority impossible. For example, the UK Government should refuse to agree a S30 order any time soon but should embark on a charm offensive to persuade Scots to love the Union (not in so many words).
But the Institute for Government is the brainchild of Lord Sainsbury who Chairs the Board and funds it. The Board contains such independent luminaries as David Lidington and Lady Amos and assorted corporate dignitaries.
Jess Sargeant and the other researches who wrote the paper are all former UCL Constitution Unit persons. Obviously they find the Institute for Government more congenial.
My only question is – why did The National feel it necessary to print this stuff?
link to instituteforgovernment.org.uk
The more I hear corporate shills kick the question into next year at the 2021 Holyrood election, the more certain I feel that it has to be done this year, while we are still in the transition period and so EU rules still apply.
@JWT
A Scottish Election would also be seen to be more democratic than the UK FPTP system with its gerrymandered restrictions on who can vote.
The more inclusive Scottish voter franchise includes 16 & 17year olds, plus Commonwealth and EU citizens if they are resident at a Scottish address.
One wonders if Westminster will attempt some sneaky angle on restricting EU citizens’ voting rights if they haven’t yet applied for either of the Pre-Settled or Settled Status schemes.
I hope that “resident” status is more robustly checked and adhered to these days.
Resident shouldn’t just be council tax being paid in full, but should also entail that driving license, passport, bank accounts and insurance policies, etc, have the address as primary residence.
It’s fraudulent and sometimes illegal to lie about your primary address.
Pacman says:
14 January, 2020 at 6:44 pm
It is just a matter of time before the Tories have to cave into pressure to grant the S30.
The ONLY “pressure” the SNP can exert is not via a consultative referendum in the absence of a S30, but to state that in 2021 they will stand on a single-issue manifesto pledge that in the event of being returned to Govt. at Holyrood with >50% of votes cast AND seats won, they’ll introduce a Bill to Repeal the 1707 Act & Articles of Union with England.
Only then would BawJaws have to weigh up the odds of the SNP being victorious in 2021 versus the prospect of Yes losing in a Westminster sanctioned IndyRef2.
If BawJaws recons Westminster’s best bet is to acquiesce to a S30 then they’ll do it. Otherwise, Holyrood 2021 is the only credible “Plan B” for the SNP IMHO.
Baldeagle58
link to www2.gov.scot
Page Viii, Alex Salmond preface:
’a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way‘
p556
’It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity’
Media full of “Boris is the one with all the power”
Begs the question…
Well just how powerful IS the most powerful devolved parliament in the whole wide word if it’s not allowed to run a vote then?
@ Liz g – Ian Blackford doesn’t agree that Boris Johnston is all powerful. I posted a link upthread to his media interviews today. He doesn’t strike me as a man who is feart.
link to twitter.com
@Gfaetheblock
Lol back again on that score. My latter response to you in our wee convo last night got held in moderation in case you missed it.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The: “we’re no bound by the personal opinions of a First Minister” would have more credibility if
Scotland was not left to ground her teeth in anger and frustration because of the s30 indyref policy of the SNP – all because of the personal opinion of the current First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon.
She called the shots. We are where we are because in her *personal opinion* s30 indyref is the only legal way to achieve independence.
That’s after wasting three years “stopping” Brexit.
I notice nobody bothers to quote Blackford’s eloquent Commons speeches anymore since he’s changed the record from: ” I won’t allow Brexit to happen” to “Indyref2 will happen because the Tories will give in to moral pressure”.
Seems like nobody believes him nowadays. I wonder why?
@ Robert Knight and others who cite the 2021 Holyrood election as the key moment for an indy plebiscite.
Scot Gov can force a Holyrood election right now, apparently. Seems a good idea to do it while we still have some EU protection and the power over our voting system e.g. that 16 year olds and EU citizens may vote.
Craig Murray’s “solution” leaves us exposed to UK military force due to the absence of a clear majority in favour of independence, whereas a majority pro-indy Holyrood election result would give a clear statement for the international community to support.
Capella @ 10.09
Yeah I saw that Capella thanks 🙂
I’m just pointing out that the answer to “the most powerful devolved parliament in the whole wide word” is to point out Boris Johnson cannot then have all the power and ask which it is : -) 🙂
Gfaetheblock says:
14 January, 2020 at 10:03 pm
link to www2.gov.scot
Page Viii, Alex Salmond preface:
’a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way‘
p556
’It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity’
Gftb….
“It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity”
My emphasis – just incase anyone missed it.
Johnson declared the last General Election as a “once in a generation” one. So, if he does not mean that as we are not having another UK GE for 40 or 50 years, does it not follow that “a generation” must last for about 5 years as the next GE has to be held by then? So, logically, perhaps NS and colleagues could thank him for the reminder on this and point out that the indyref is now overdue by 12 months or so.
Looks like its a case of
The Mandate Who Would Be King
My only question is – why did The National feel it necessary to print this stuff?
because the people who wrote it are informed, educated, pro yes and know what they are talking about
how many law degrees do you have
i dont like it much either, but this is an honest resume of where we are
@Sarah
“Scot Gov can force a Holyrood election right now, apparently. Seems a good idea to do it while we still have some EU protection and the power over our voting system e.g. that 16 year olds and EU citizens may vote.”
Yep I like this option although the list vote leaves us a little exposed. Also a list only Indy party might act as an insurance policy but it would take time to organise. I am aware moves are afoot.
There’s still a good chance the UK leaves the EU at the end of this year with No Deal. No Deal medicine and food shortages would be the perfect circumstances in which to hold the decisive independence vote. Hence spring 2021 might be the best time for either iref2 or a Holyrood election doubling as an indy vote.
CROWDJUSTICE.COM
The Scottish People Vs The UK Government on Indyref2
2 days to go £37,286 pledged of £40,000 target
link to crowdjustice.com
It is our intention to lodge an action by ordinary members of Scotlands general population against the UK Government when they refuse or ignore a formal request from the First Minister of Scotland for an order under Section 30 of the Scotland Act to devolve the powers necessary to hold a second independence referendum.
Surely a few of you kind souls can help this one over the line, they’ve so nearly made it
Wokey and the Mandit 🙂
Gfaetheblock @ 10.03
I’ve never been one to deny they both said it or that it’s in the white paper….
I’m just sayin “I’m no of that opinion ma self and ma vote is worth just as much as Alex or Nicola”.
Therefore another two just like me make it a moot point!
@ Sarah – great points.
A bold move by Scotgov to resign and force an election.
Perhaps there are pitfalls.
I’d love to see it.
But think there is still good reason for caution.
What would be rather good
1. All Westminster SNP MP’s are withdrawn immediately from Westminster.
2. Nicola Sturgeon resigns as First Minister and as leader of the SNP.
3. Scottish Government resigns and calls a Scottish Parliamentary election.
4. SNP elect another leader (one who can’t be accused of stating that first Indy ref was a ‘once in a generation’ opportunity.
5. Election is fought on the basis of seeking a mandate for a second Indy ref.
6. If pro independence parties secure a majority in the election a section 30 order is demanded of Westminster (not requested).
7. If demand is refused, the Scottish Government initiate a campaign of civil disobedience which includes ALL aspects of central and local government.
Or, we could just wait until Westminster change their minds………
Again with respect to…
’It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity’
The principle that no Parliament can bind a future parliament, (that is, it cannot pass a law that cannot be changed or reversed by a future Parliament), applies as much to Holyrood as it does to Westminster.
It’s a case of that was then, (pre-Brexit), this is now, (post-Brexit). Hardly rocket science, you’d think…
@ScottieDog – I forgot the “small” problem about the list vote!
OK, I go with others who suggest a Yes party for the list. Candidates should be from each region’s Yes groups – the best individuals will be well known in their areas by now, I imagine. Does there need to be a single leader? I don’t see why.
I really feel that we must not delay until 2021. Far too much damage can be inflicted on Scotland [and England, Wales, NI] by then.
@Sarah
I think a single issue party I.e Indy with a diverse bunch is a strength. Not sure if you’ve seen this. Don’t know much about them yet and I can’t make it along to their meeting in Feb.
Here’s a link to their FB page..
link to m.facebook.com
Basically pursuing the legal route (even though it’s doomed to fail) shows that there has been no stone unturned to the international community but we have to guarantee a big win in 2021.
I actually think the tories are going to do some fiscal love bombing over the next year to ward us off.
Those inclined to civil disobedience.
Here’s how those nasty extinction-rebellion terrorists are planning their 2020
Culminating in Glasgow in November at the UN Climate Change Conference
link to rebellion.earth
Just be careful who chats you up!
link to archive.is
Schrodingers Cat @ 10.23
The paper Capella linked to has nothing to do with the Law.
It’s not the one the two professors wrote it that’s what your thinking!
It’s recommending amongst other things more powers for Holyrood if that’s what it takes?
This is framed as an honest choice for the people to pick from
We both know not only can they not give more powers they have to take some or they won’t get their trade deals.
So it is a piece of nonsense, birthday caird pish infact
Hope we get Indy done reasonably soon before global warming takes its toll.
It would be hella ironic if we finally commit to regaining our rights to self-determination only to find we’re a’ standing at the top of Ben Nevis with water lapping our feet and
20,000 Mandates Under the Sea
Of course Unionists would still be yelling “Too Wee, Too Poor, Too Stupid”, but at that point I’d actually have to agree with them.
Ahh, maybe that is the SNP Plan B, just keep collecting mandates till Westminster is under water.
@ScottieDog: thank you for the People’s Alliance link. I hadn’t heard of them before. Perhaps the Rev knows them and will share his list-party-only plans with them?
@ScotsRenewables at 10.26: see Andrew Tickell “Peat Worrier” twitter about the Scottish People court case fundraiser. Andrew is a law lecturer and is positive that this case is NOT the answer and is in fact a serious waste of money. He has convinced me – and I am normally a cert to donate to causes!
schrodingers cat
And how many law degrees do you have? In order to consider Westminster’s actions to be legal, you need to ignore the constitution’s moral law justification and international legal doctrine.
@ SC – how many law degrees do you have?
None. But I read a lot.
@ Liz g 🙂
@ SC again – perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. The paper I was talking about was the one written by researchers for the Institute of Government which Stu linked to upthread. Not the Aileen McHarg paper which I basically agree with.
link to archive.is
Scotland is in a situation if extreme peril, as Westminster has abandoned any respect for constitutional law.
Judicial Review, Socio-Economic Rights and the Human Rights Act
Weak Courts, Strong Courts: Judicial Review and Social Welfare Rights in Comparative Constitutional Law
link to academic.oup.com
Remember, Scotland has a more moral claim to self-determination than Catalonia.
Hubris, constitutionalism, and “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”: The repression of Catalan secessionist referenda in Spanish constitutional law
link to academic.oup.com
@Ian Brotherhood, 3.22pm
it’s the lack of a date, a target, that’s scunnering so many of us.
On Feb 1st, while Bojo is trying to throw a party, NS is going to have to make a statement. She can’t get the ‘gold standard’ indyref she wants, and that’s fair enough, she did try, but time’s up now – we want a date.
No more fannying about.
Well said, Ian. 17 September 2020 sounds good to me too. The Scottish Parliament should now accelerate the approval process for holding a referendum.
If folk want Scotland to become autonomous, they’ll need to stop thinking from the British nationalist perspective. That means rejecting Westminster’s legal authority over Scotland. They have none now, IMHO, as Brexit is not compatible with social democracy.
Sorry erm …well…
The Guns of Mandate
The Mandate has landed
Harry Potter and the Kelch of Mandates
Lord of the Mandates
.. and für German viewers:
Das Mandate
🙂 🙂
@Scottie Dog, 6.07pm
So today, the U.K. govt have acknowledged that
1) they would likely lose a referendum
2) they need us more than we need them
3) they absolutely intend to squander our resources in future trade deals.
and in the process, they will destroy our social democracy.
“Game of Mandates”
“Mary, Queen of Mandates”
“Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Mandate”
“Carry on up the Mandate”
‘The Da Vinci Mandate”
Sorry!
And my favourite because it pi**es me off that the SNP could waste so many f*****g opportunities.
“All quiet on the Mandate Front”
I think we all know a fair bit about the law:
We’ve aw watched the Beefy Bake episode of Still Game.
Mibbies that’s where the FM got her legal advice from too.
link to uk.news.yahoo.com
Just reposting Doug’s link from 6.42 pm.
Folks might want to vote on this webpage
Should Scotland have another independence referendum?
Currently on 57% NO.
Think it needs a few yes voters to click on YES.
cirsium
Hasn’t Sturgeon already ruled out any “unofficial” referendum?
e.g. without WM approval.
Where eagles Mandate
Has someone done that and I’ve not seen it
I doubt there’ll be a need for polls I’ve been all through the Internet bloody everywhere and by what people are writing from every corner of Scotland is we want democracy or it’s war, folk are a tad angry and serious and determined and ready to go, not a soul seems put off by Johnson or his new order populists, even folk who weren’t too much bothered before are now
See whin a bampot tells ye ye cannae ye waant tae dae it aw the mair
Maybe we need to start talking in our own languages again like the Welsh and really piss them off
Sorry if this has already been covered but AlJazeera posted a notification (you know the scroll bye text on the live screen thingy) about BoJo rejecting a second referendum.
Someone somewhere figures we could be a story brewing.
Then there’s the national Bard.
A mandate’s a mandate for aw that.
Ae fond mandate
My love is like a red red mandate.
Scots Wha Hae – a mandate
Mandates Galore.
I just can’t get into a piss-take frame of mind, though I’m glad some can. 😉
Cultural power colonises the mind, and a lack of social agency undermines self-conception of the self. Both are bad for mental and physical health. These are well established facts and are the root of Scotland’s fear of freedom.
The Self: Colonization in Psychology and Society
link to swarthmore.edu
Scotland may not be a colony but we have become so used to performing as one, that some of us actually believe it. Even if they deny they do.
Colonialism and Psychology of Culture
link to onlinelibrary.wiley.com
Can you feel it?
Jess Phillips interview.
Michael Gove interview.
Carwyn Jones statement.
Alex Rowley statement.
Pamela Nash carcrash interview.
Seems to me that the progress to Independence is coming from within.
And it’s only day 1.
Simon Curran @ 21:27:
D’ye know, I do believe you’re right, even though it won’t become obvious for a while, and the process by which it will happen is as yet unclear.
BoZo and his assiduous factor Jack have in the process also totally queered the standing of the Tory Party in Scotland, and worse even than Thatcher+Forsyth ever managed. They have damned every single person in their misbegotten little bunch of Qui~~ings who goes along – whether vocally or silently – with this gross affront to Scotland and to democracy.
No doubt his hardline response will go down very well with the reactionary minority and their media promoters who want to regress to the 1950s, but everyone else can no longer have any illusions about the true nature of our abusive relationship with the English Establishment. (Scottish Labour in particular please note.) Increasingly there is no middle ground, no “third way”, no genuine prospective “devo max”; you’re either for full no-compromise Scottish autonomy or for craven subservience to an overbearing, uncaring and increasingly selfish England.
I reckon Nicola’s statement at the end of the month will go something like this –
‘BJ’s statement is undemocratic blah, blah, blah. We have mandates blah, blah, blah. We will re-double our efforts to convince the Scottish people of independence blah, blah, blah. WM’s position is unsustainable blah, blah, blah. We will set up a people’s National Assembly to talk about independence…oh shit I’ve already used that delaying tactic. Ok then, we’ll set up another Growth Commission but this one’s gonna be called the Independence Commission – see it’s same same but different.
Decisive action ?!? to coin a phrase I’ll happily die in a ditch if I see it.
In a nutshell I agree with Stu, given NS said she expected this reply then she should have been ready, immediately, to set out what action was coming next from Scotland. We look so bloody weak and quite frankly we all need to have a hard look in the mirror for allowing the SNP to float through these last 3 years doing hee-haw. Party faithful please start doing some critical thinking about where the SNP is taking us (road to nowhere is my opinion).
Sorry if this pisses some people off but am bloody raging at Scotland’s lack of backbone.
Oh I forgot to add – here’s another glossy SNP petition we want everyone to sign!!!
Ok peeps. At a course guess, I say that Nicola Sturgeon snd her Holyrood ministers have turned ca 100,000 Nos to Yes. We need at least 200,000 more to change their mind. So let’s either:
– undermine the gradual conversion
– propose UDI with zero internationsl recognition
– attack SNP so that we can replace it with, er, untested, unknown, easily-attacked pseudo-politicians
– surrender to Boris dictatorship.
Your choice.
Some people on the Internet say the SNP does’nt have a plan and then other people say, the SNP are rubbish they don’t have a plan and so on and so on
The FM said “this was not unexpected and we will set out our next steps in the next few weeks”
I think that sound like they have a plan but they’re not going to blurt it out all over the place until they pick the time and certainly not to the Internet or the gagging media
Two, maybe three weeks and we’ll all know how it’s going to go
As a critical, post-colonial, analysis of Scotland’s circumstances is lacking, this will have to suffice. All it want is legal recognition of my inalienable human rights. Is that so despicable?
World social science report, 2016: Challenging inequalities; pathways to a just world
link to unesdoc.unesco.org
Dan @ 5:01pm
Well when you have the time I will put a few prawns on the Barbie and crack more than one of a few beers with you.
Cheers, Stu, for keeping the kettle simmering.
We do live in interesting times, don’t we?
In the meantime I am holding my breath until the 1st of February.
As Johnson attempts to hold Scotland imprisoned, Unionists bleat that he’s not but Johnson is negotiating 27 border posts we can’t now freely cross
Yep nothing like a prison at all is it
So whart has NS been doing. The clue is that she is a lawyer by training and therefore the “legal” route is what she has been up to.
Firstly demonstrate to all and sundry that you have tried every avenue and they have all been blocked, I think this is basically where we are now. Possible response link to businessforscotland.com
Make it clear that Scotlands assets are not up for negotiating in any trade deal. Would you knowingly buy a stolen car which could get repossessed at any moment?
Bojo: We will offer the EU oil and gas.
EU : Thats Scotlands asset.
Bojo: It belongs to WM and we have told the Scots to get back in the tin.
EU: Really, well we need confirmation of that BEFORE we agree to this Trade deal. May we suggest a Referendum. Better be quick before you leave without a deal.
Kangaroo @ 1.42
If you put prawns on Barbie…. You’ll be in sooo much trouble from Ken…. 🙂
Liz g
Lol
Kangaroo
You’re having a hard time there and I don’t mean to be a downer, but supporting gender-ideology in law does not suggest an understanding of diversity, equality, human rights or the law. Someone ordered the civil service to adopt other than best practice in policy design. Best practice is designed to assist impartiality and justice. Even if the FM has no involvement, or you think the matters unconnected, my lack of confidence in the leadership is justified. IMHO, obviously.
Dr Jim says:
15 January, 2020 at 1:29 am
Two, maybe three weeks and we’ll all know how it’s going to go….
In two weeks we are out of Europe and subjugated. “Maybe” doesn’t cut it Dr Jim.
.
Stu.
Please can we have some good news?
What if we create our own “Plan A”?
Here is some lateral thinking…
What if we supported a “Wee Blue Book For England?”
Following Boris Johnson’s arrogant NO to IndyRef2 yesterday. I read some below-the–line comments from Unionists and the English. It is lousy and full of disgusting anti-Scots lies, bile and hatred. Plus 78% of the English, including the 9% of English living in Scotland are convinced England subsidises Scotland. I just read one halfwit from Norwich say his taxes pay £12 BILLION to fund our free prescriptions and free university education.
So here’s my point…
We fundraise, print and distribute a Wee Blue Book of Why England Would Be Better Off Without Scotland” and send it to say 6 million homes in ENGLAND with millions of free PDF versions available to the plagues of fat, bald ENGLISH BIGOTS. This could then force BoZo into granting IndyRef2.
Boris Johnson just refused the Scots their democratic right for IndyRef2.
But on 7th May 2020 there will be 118 English Councils up for election.
England just voted to leave the EU. Even solid Labour seats in northern England voted Tory as Boris promised to get Brexit done.
IT WOULD BE A MASTERSTROKE IF A WEE BLUE BOOK ABOUT HOW ENGLAND CAN GET RID OF SPONGING SUBSIDY JUNKIE SCOTLAND ended up being a MAJOR electoral issue on 7th May 2020 in England.
I bet £100 out of my wallet to Stuart’s fundraiser for a POLL to analyse if the VOTERS in England that just put Boris into power with a 78 MP majority on the mandate to tell the EU to FCUK OFF would ALSO back the idea that those same ENGLISH ELECTORS can tell Scotland to FUKC OFF too!
What do Wingers reckon?
Given the choice, would Engerland vote in a local council election to GET RID OF SCOTLAND.
This could become another English HASHTAG trend..
#FUCKOFFSCOTLAND.
…the English are so utterly ignorant down there and believe we are sweaty subsidy junkies.
It would only take a few percentage points to shift dozens of Tory councils away from BOZO. That may well knock Johnson into a corner if he lost the majority of those 118 English Councils because He refused to listen to the English voters that hate Scotland and don’t want to subsidise us (sic) anymore?
Stu., I am fed up waiting around for the Scottish Government to think up a Plan A o Plan B.
How about we seize the initiative with our own WoS Plan A?
Start with a poll to see if a Wee Blue Book to help England get rid of Scotland would sway any voters darn sarf and if so, what percentage?
For those wise in the ways of far eastern philosophy, it is often said: use your enemy’s strength against them.
Scotland is roughly 10% the size of England. So we need to be much smarter and deploy serious strategy with lateral thinking to get ourselves out of this political union.
What say you Rev?
.
.
.
Apropos the Wee Blue Book For England To Divorce Scotland” and thereby get rid of the Jockistan sweaty parasites (a quote from an Englishman).
As a result we secure an IndyRef2 by a Wings Plan A.
There is already some interesting research on how badly the English want rid of the Scottish subsidy junkies…
link to archive.is
Oh fuck it…
‘The Unbearable Lightness of Mandate’
🙂
Lots of cognitive dissonance running through this thread…
Dr JIm at 0129am,
Yes, but there have been folk on here telling us all just to wait a few weeks, for the last four years. At which point, Nicola Sturgeon’s great ‘masterplan’ would be revealed. It wasn’t.
Your loyalty is admirable, but I used to defend NS to the hilt, until I slowly realised she will literally do nothing about any of this. Today, she will no doubt be talking about nursery places or community centres or somesuch. Anything, but address the destruction of Scotland and its global interests, which is hurtling down the road in the form of enforced brexit.
Brexit is about to happen, and the Scotgov, are carrying on as though everything is just as it always was. Playing by rules, which Westminster now ignores.
The SNP will never be forgiven. NS has been given mandate after mandate after mandate, but at each and every one of the truly golden opportunities over the past three years she has squandered her chance.
NS is a lovely person, and a great politician, and a great manager, and a great First Minister. She is NOT a leader.
Scotland really needs a leader right now.
Sarah at 1012pm,
The point you make about ‘uk military force’ isn’t really relevant. Troops on the streets of Scotland?? Guaranteed to turn a 60% majority for independence into a 90% majority.
Think it through. Troops on the street would not work, indeed it would achieve the exact opposite result of any desired effect by Westminster.
I admit, it is the kind of stupidity we might expect from the lying, racist, clown prime minister of England, but it would increase the desire for indy in a heartbeat.
Craig Murray is correct though, independence is not a matter of domestic law, and this consatnt SNP subservience to Westminster’s ‘made-up’ diktats on the subject is ridiculous. You either behave and think as a sovereign country, or you carry on as a colony of England, their is no ‘middle way’. That has now been made abundantly clear by England’s prime minister.
Half an hour ago, posted this on Twitter…
‘Would you like to see indyref2 being held on Sept 17th 2020?’
104 votes cast so far, 96.2% Yes.
Yes, I know it’s only Twitter etc but interesting all the same.
link to twitter.com
@Robert Louis –
Craig Murray’s latest certainly seems to be striking a chord with many. I copied part of his article into a tweet last night and it’s been retweeted constantly, much more than normal (in my timeline at any rate).
Heard Prof Sir John The Curtice last night and David The Porter this morning both punting the line that there won’t be anything to see until the Holyrood elections next summer. If that really is the editorial tack being taken now then they’re getting properly desperate.
😉
Seize independence?
Why not?
2020 should be the year the noble idea of Scotland, sovereign and independent, becomes a reality.
This is an ‘envelope’ we must push to the edge.
The constitutionalists and gradualists have had their chance.
The true nationalists step forward.
Sassenach @ 9.27
1. WOS has a huge ready made following a majority of whom would vote for a WOS party as a 2nd Vote for List seat.You might be right that Stu would be vilified by the Scottish Media But I never said he should be leader. He is the ideal Party Chairman and Election Manager – I’m sure that a ‘weel kent’ Media/Political savvy Leader could be found/elected.
2. I couldn’t give a flying fcuk about MSP’s salary. Just saying if it came down to ‘possibly’ losing a deposit then I would happily fund that loss.
3. If you think that that the SNP alone will win an outright majority in 2021 then you are the one that’s dreaming. The Greens are an unreliable indy ally. We need another option!
I liked @sarah’s suggestion that candidates for a WOS/Yes party could be drawn from various Yes Groups. But something needs to be started now to build up a groundswell before 2021
Can I be controversial
Nicola might be correct as the polls show no real movement, and the Rev is correct in that movement will only come when a campaign starts, but the more she pushes Westminster into their position the better the snp position
I they they will crash the Scottish government and call an election wi
Hi honey will become the referendum and job done
We do need a wings party
Don’t know what happened there
They call election and job done