stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


The wrong end of the telescope

Posted on April 08, 2018 by

This was the front page of yesterday’s Scotsman:

As is often the case with Scottish newspapers these days, the story was based entirely on a fantasy – IF a certain number of people did a certain thing (flee to England to escape a 1p income tax rise), which the story doesn’t provide a shred of evidence to suggest they’re going to do, then a bad thing would happen.

But that wasn’t the weird bit.

Because the headline – based on a report by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, who the law dictates must always be referred to as “highly respected” – might well lead a reasonable person to conclude that the IFS had predicted such a shortfall in Scottish tax revenue as a result of the new rates which took effect this week.

That’s not actually true, though, as alert readers of the piece will swiftly discover.

So what’s actually happened is that the IFS have predicted that the changes – which cut tax slightly for most Scots and redistribute wealth modestly from the rich to the poor – will nevertheless generate over £200m in extra tax for the Scottish Government to spend, even if the supposed flight to England of high earners takes place.

(Though we’d be sceptical as to whether most high earners are in fact so dim as not to realise that the few hundred pounds in income tax they might save by doing so would swiftly be swallowed up in higher council tax, higher property prices, prescription fees, tuition fees for their children, etc etc, let alone the personal social impact. Michelle Mone is living proof that epically stupid people CAN get wealthy, but we suspect she’s the exception rather than the rule.)

You can call us naive if you like, but less tax for most people and more money for the government sounds like a good thing to us. Readers can form their own view as to why the Scotsman has chosen to portray it from such a bafflingly apocalyptic angle.

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    1. 08 04 18 14:56

      The wrong end of the telescope | speymouth

    183 to “The wrong end of the telescope”

    1. Jim Arnitt says:

      Thank goodness for Wings getting us to the truth.

    2. Highland Wifie says:

      Well as I always say – you can’t legislate for stupid.

      That applies to people who read the Scotsman too.

    3. Bob Mack says:

      It’s the British thing to do Stu. Can’t have the natives getting ideas you know. Safer to be under Brittanias umbrella when the rainy day comes old bean.

    4. Artyhetty says:

      When did the ‘Scotsman’ become so very anti the Scottish government, we know they are anti SNP and no doubt always have been? Was it ever really a Scottish newspaper. Isn’t it dying a long slow death? We can see why.

    5. Arbroath1320 says:

      You know what?

      It would not bother me in the slightest if we did, as the Hootsmon claims, lose 20million cause that would mean we’d also lose a fair old number of greed driven Tory voting NO supporters.

      In effect this is a win/win situation for us.

      Hope they all let us know when they are leaving and I’ll nimble along to Gretna to oversee the sweeping of the M74 personally. I’d hate to think their last ever view of Scotland was of a dirty road.

    6. jimnarlene says:

      The Hootsman, not fit for wrapping a fish supper.

    7. Dr Jim says:

      When you’ve got something to sell that you know is unpalatable to the people you advertise it’s the opposite then after you’ve done it tell everybody it’s a great success

      Irn Bru? The Scotsman? both shit

    8. jfngw says:

      As long as we assure that only those that have a Scottish Tax code can receive Holyrood benefits then that is fine. What we can’t have is people receiving benefits in Scotland but paying their income tax to rUK.

      No vote in a Holyrood election or referendum for non Scottish income tax payers and any family below 25.

    9. RogueCoder says:

      The Scottish Government’s new tax rates – and specifically the absolute lies that the Tories are spewing out about them – are the subject of a wee fundraiser I put up yesterday.

      I got so fed up with hearing the “highest taxed part of the UK” bollocks soundbite that I decided to do something about it. The fundraiser text explains the background to the issue and shows why the Tories are epic liars, so even if you don’t have any spare money to donate, please do check out the text (which I should probably turn into a Wings article):

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-tax-fact-check/x/6905220#/

    10. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      The timing of today’s alleged gas/chem attack by Syria is immaculate.

      It serves 2 purposes:-

      In the first instance it diverts attention from Israel’s latest massacre of Palestinians.

      Secondly, as more egg hits The UK Government’s face (both of them) and the smell surrounding Skripalgate gets stronger it gets us back on the demonisation of Russia trail.

    11. Jim Clark says:

      Artyhetty asks when the Scotsman became so anti. I can’t say exactly, but it was under Andra’s control on behalf of the Barclays when it turned into the North Briton.
      You’ve got to wonder why the southern billionaires are so desperate to hang onto us. Alternatively, ask – who are the real subsidy junkies?

    12. Cubby says:

      It is just sickening that this rag of a British Nationalist paper has the cheek to call itself THE SCOTSMAN. What a joke.

    13. We are so ungrateful after all although the lords are,receiving £300 a day plus subsidised canteens and bars the government have not forgotten us they have provided us with food banks the tories are truly the party for the working,class only out done by labour ???

    14. Crackerjack says:

      O/T

      Latest Poll news from “Scot Goes Pop”:

      SUNDAY, APRIL 8, 2018

      Landmark Panelbase poll finds 42% of Scottish public want a very early independence referendum.

      Today brings word of a full-scale Scottish poll from Panelbase, and not for the first time it illustrates beautifully the yawning chasm between the actual state of public opinion, and the fictional version of public opinion that the unionist media would rather we heard about. Ludicrously, the Times (who commissioned the poll) claim there is “little support” for a pre-2021 independence referendum, even though the poll actually shows that a whopping 42% of the electorate – the sort of percentage that governments are elected on – want a referendum within around twelve months, let alone within three years. 17% want it to be held while Brexit is still being negotiated, meaning within less than one year, and an additional 25% want it at the end of Brexit negotiations, meaning in about a year’s time.

      As I’ve noted in the past, the format of Panelbase’s question on referendum timing isn’t ideal. There is no obvious option provided for people who want a referendum in two or three years’ time – anyone in that position is effectively forced to be more negative about a referendum than they really feel (by choosing the third option of “no referendum in the next few years”) or to be more bullish about timing than they really feel. Which way such people are jumping in the poll can only be a matter of speculation. What I would point out, though, is that the relatively even split of 58% against a very early referendum, 42% in favour, has occurred in spite of a prolonged spell in which the SNP have not been openly making the case for a vote. If they had been, it seems at least conceivable that the numbers would be even more favourable.

      Just as was the case in the Ipsos-Mori poll a few weeks ago, there is no sign whatever of Pete Wishart’s so-called “indy-gap” – a claimed phenomenon of support for an early referendum running significantly below support for independence itself. In reality, support for an early referendum (42%) is once again essentially identical to support for independence (43%).

      The Yes vote continues the trend of recent months by remaining static. Some pollsters have shown Yes essentially static in the mid-40s, some (like Panelbase) in the low 40s, and some in the high 40s. These are simply ‘house differences’ between the various firms, and it’s impossible to know who is closest to the truth. It’s a remarkable turnaround from the long indyref campaign that Panelbase online polling is now on the No-friendly end of the spectrum, and that Ipsos-Mori telephone polling is on the Yes-friendly end.

      There are also Westminster voting intention numbers –

      SNP 36% (-5)
      Conservatives 28% (+1)
      Labour 27% (+3)
      Liberal Democrats 6% (n/c)
      Greens 2% (n/c)

      The drop in the SNP vote may look alarming, but the 41% recorded in the previous Panelbase poll was the highest in any poll from any firm since the general election, so it may have been an inflated number caused by the margin of error. This is only the second post-election poll (out of nine) to put the SNP below the 37% recorded on election day, but there has been no reduction in the eight-point election gap between SNP and Tory, and only a statistically insignificant one-point reduction in the gap between SNP and Labour. So even if this poll was accurate, it’s not clear that the SNP would be losing seats in an early election.

    15. Clydebuilt says:

      On BBC radio Shortbread this morning , Douglas Fraser explained how to re jig your tax affairs such that Westminster would get your taxation with Nothing going to tax Scottish Gov.

      Gus1940 aye the Skripalgate affair, the ground work for something much worse. Probably intended to help the ill-informed accept intervention in Syria.

    16. Clydebuilt says:

      On BBC radio Shortbread this morning , Douglas Fraser explained how to re jig your tax affairs such that Westminster would get your taxation with Nothing going to the Scottish Gov.

      Gus1940 aye the Skripalgate affair, the ground work for something much worse. Probably intended to help the ill-informed accept intervention in Syria.

    17. Dr Jim says:

      The more newspapers like the Scotsman print rubbish about the Independence movement arguing with each other the less actual Independence supporters I find doing it

      There are however lots of *I did but I won’t again* Yoon chancers tweeting their little hearts out in the hope of that strategy working, but when it comes to it nobody’s going to fall for the *split your vote* tactic or be kidded on by the *support for Indy waning* piddle

      The whole Independence movement knows now not to be diverted by any newspaper or telly drivel, or any of this *Ooh tactical voting* faff, it’ll be SNP all the way and if they don’t deliver for Scotland, well they know as well as any political party what happens next

      Everybody loses, so we keep the faith and everybody wins, even the Yoons

    18. This rag and its hacks are on their last legs; and this juvenile shite succinctly illustrates why nobody is buying it any more.
      What a way to make a living, writing absolute shite.
      Is Dark Money propping it up until after Indyref2?

    19. Marcia says:

      Why anyone would anyone move to England just to escape the small income tax increase if the employer would let them. That person would have to pay higher housing costs, higher council tax, water charges in addition to their council tax, prescription charges on medicines and if they have kids, students fees for their University place.

    20. louis.b.argyll says:

      ‘.. bafflingly apocalyptic..’

      After hundreds of years in charge, our establishment has again peaked in the breeding ignorance stakes.

      Fiddling the truth all the while.

    21. Abulhaq says:

      The SNP has yet to make a purely nationalist case for independence. Allowing itself to be seduced by the ideologues of London-type liberal social agendas and its apparent fear of the term ‘nationalist’ as interpreted by the same ideologues hands the field over to the mischief makers who will attempt to shred every policy the party advocates.
      There is a visceral case for Scottish independence, it is a fundamentally old-school nationalist one. Scotland is a nation, possessing everything needed for statehood. It should be no ones plaything. It needs to be brought home to the citizens of this country just how much of a toy ie useful idiots they historically have been and still are to the British state and that Brexit could well signal a period of political turbulence as England attempts to go global and finds the globe is not buying.

    22. Inverclyder says:

      No tears will be shed over the passing of that Scotsman.

    23. louis.b.argyll says:

      Jack Collatin,
      Something is propping up our media dinosaurs. It’s called greedy-conservative-I’m-all-right-jack-couldn’t-care-less-ness.
      Shameful attitude when applied to national institutions, hence their declining readership and distrust in other institutions.

    24. Ken500 says:

      When did the Pollsters get elected. Fraudsters. People who advised giving SNP votes away. Losing the out right majority. Boosting up the unionist vote. Some ‘experts’. Now trying to manipulate the polls to influence the date of the vote. Not very smart. These so called ‘experts’ are censored time and time for poor metholodgy, statistics and data. Making money out of always getting it wrong. When the vote is held it will not be up to them but to elected representatives

      Not a peep about Cambridge. Analytica or SCL Now banned. Totally illegal funding over limits. The Polls are used to manipulate the vote. Illegal Gerrymandering.

    25. Breeks says:

      What happened about Alex Salmond trying to buy the Scotsman? Not that I’m really interested in the Scotsman for what it’s become, but whether a pro Indy stance, or even diligently objective neutrality, would turn its fortunes around.

      The 1p rise in tax for the higher earners just reminds me of the kiddies fairytale about the Princess and Pea; no matter how many mattresses between her bum cheeks and the pea, the precious little Royalist still won’t be able to sleep because she’s still worried sick about the 1p hidden under the bed that normal people simply wouldn’t notice.

    26. mogabee says:

      Och it’s a tricky one right enough.

      If any of our rich folk want to leave, can we ascertain how they would vote in next indyref? I mean, if they are on the positive side we could have a dialogue but on the negative side, we’ll wave them cheery bye! 😀

    27. Cuilean says:

      I stopped buying ‘The Scotsman’ in early 2014 due to such dystopian reports.

      I no longer buy UK papers, apart from ‘The National’. I want to read about the real I actually live in and experience as REAL; not these papers’ fictional, frothing, 24/7 doomdom.

    28. Cuilean says:

      Mogabee. This is a great idea. Let’s tax the bejayzuz out of all the over 65 year old plus NO & Leave voters. They can then all upsticks & move to England & Wales’ the mythical Tory Utopia, which Ruth Davidson & Jackie Bird keep banging on about.

      They’ll love England & Wales’ soaring crime rate & failing NHS too, as there’s nothing they like to do better, than moan about the govt.

    29. Ken500 says:

      The Scotsman £200Million+ debts have to be restructured by 2019. On borrowed time.

      Desmond just sold the Express to Trinity Mirror for £1million more than he paid for it ten years ago. A loss. Massive pension deficit. He has to pay £Millions till 2020. Ran it into the ground.

      Neil has been employed by the BBC for over 40 years to tell lies. £3.7Billion. ‘Reporters’ getting up to £1/2Million+ a year for propaganda. £Multimillionaires.

      Murdoch is selling out to Disney. Fake News becoming fairy tales.

    30. Dan Huil says:

      Boycott all britnat media. Don’t pay the bbc tax. If you can afford it donate to pro-indy websites, clubs and pro-indy causes in general. Wear Yes badges. wear Scotland badges. Put up Yes posters and stickers. Flag up the Saltire if you’ve got a spare flagpole, fly it even if you don’t. Stay cool, stay positive.

    31. Jim Lynch says:

      Perhaps I missed some comments; Alex Salmond was rumoured to become Chairman of the Johnston Press if a Norwegian investor bought it.

      Has that delicious prospect gone ?

    32. Bill McLean says:

      Cuilean at 4.20 – hey you i’m over 65 – don’t believe the bull that all over 65 year olds are unionists or i’ll cut off your allowance!

    33. Orri says:

      The thing about rejiging your tax to avoid paying anything to Holyrood deserves a rule in the next referendum that you need to at least be liable for tax in Scotland to get a vote.

      Howeverthat kind of tax avoidance is a particularly selfish bordering on evil thing to do and simply demonstrates a complete lack of social conscience.

    34. Johnston Press,owners of the rag,will be subsidised by the State run BBC,

      Johnston Press have got 30.5 Local Democracy Reporters from the BBC’s Local News Partnerships,

      which is a fifth of the 150 Local Democracy Reporters the BBC are guaranteeing to pay for the next 9 years,(£72,000,000)

      Johnston press will get nearly £15,000,000,

      tying up tighter the State control of UK media.

    35. chasanderson200 says:

      Culean @4:20
      What the fick are you havering about?
      Switch on brain, think before typing.

    36. Bill not Ben says:

      I was chatting to me old mate Angus McGubblican the other day, angus I said, have you seen the scotsman lately, he said why is he missing, I said, no angus, I’m talking about that scottish newspaper called the scotsman.
      He said, don’t be silly laddie, the last time a seen that newspaper it was hanging on a nail in ma grannies toilet, and she’s been deed for 60 years.

    37. ahundredthidiot says:

      Michelle Mone will come around in the end……

      ……most of them will and those who don’t will reflect a bygone era……just like the empire.

      I think we should call it ‘The British Lament’ and we should categorise it as an incurable condition which renders its host dumb and docile, but slightly aggressive when engaging brain.

    38. Capella says:

      The Scotsman obviously feels a referendum coming on. On Friday they published Brian Wilson’s umpteenth vituperative attack on the Scottish Governmnt. How dare the SNP remain in power.
      He calls on “civic Scotland” to take to the streets to protest at the vile nats. How can the workers remain so dormant. And so on.

      The Accounts Commission, the Fraser of Allander Institute and our old friend Professor Jim Gallagher of Nuffield College are all quoted in support.

      http://archive.li/kad6b

      There is a surprisingly shallow pool of “experts” that Brian Wilson and the BBC canvas for opinion.

    39. Andy-B says:

      The shit rag the Scotsman, should infact be known as the Anti-Scotsman.

      The sooner it goes belly up the better.

    40. twathater says:

      As has been said on here many many times I NEVER believe any of these polls ( apart from those conducted by Stu , ducks to avoid hammers ) most of these polling companies are either owned or have some connection to the ESTABLISHMENT so consequently have the ability to frame the questions to suit their agenda , also the ability to select the participants whose opinions tally with the required outcome .

      If the outpourings and exposure of Cambridge Anal has taught us anything it is that opinions can be manipulated to suit the outcome , and let’s face it the last thing the establishment would want either them or Joe public to know is that independence support is rising

      As for tax increases I agree that no Scottish tax code means no vote ( no representation without taxation )

      Dons tinfoil balaclava and retreats to screened room

    41. twathater says:

      BTW is it just me or is archive links taking forever to load

    42. twathater says:

      BTW is it just me or is archived links taking ages to load 2nd try

    43. Capella says:

      @ twathater – I’ve just tried the last link I posted and you’re right. It is taking forever. Firefox was blocking it but even after clicking “allow” it still takes ages. Sorry about that. I did find archive wouldn’t work the other day so maybe it’s been knobbled.

      Here is the unarchived link. you may have to disable ad blocker to see the article.

      https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/brian-wilson-civic-scotland-s-silence-over-snp-austerity-is-a-scandal-1-4719510

    44. twathater says:

      Thanks capella muy bien

    45. Gullane No4 says:

      Culean@4.20

      Many of the the Independence voters that I know are OAP’s.
      Quite a few are English as well.

      Stop stereotyping please, it does harm to the movement.

    46. twathater says:

      There are gremlins aboooot I tried to thank you capella and it just disappeared, THANKS CAPELLA

    47. Dr Jim says:

      Unionists used to be angry because they thought they were right, now they’re angry because they know they’re wrong and it’s embarrassing for them

      There’s no need, we’re the good guys

    48. Fred says:

      AS might be better concentrating on buying the Record, the Scotsman is a parish rag & the choice of folk who are unlikely to back independence, it’s not available in my neck of the woods.

    49. Iain says:

      Reminds mne of the famous Michael Forsyth threat. Do we miss him? ‘Who is Michael Forsyth?’ I hear some ask.

    50. Capella says:

      @ twathater – welcome 🙂

    51. schrodingers cat says:

      james kelly’s take on todays poll
      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/

      pretty much, within the margins of error, where we have been for ages. about 45%

    52. geeo says:

      Polls, Shmolls…!

      Here in theoretical land…a paper, lets say, The Times, commissions a poll on indy support.

      Said poll returns 56% Yes support.

      Does The Times …

      A. Publish this incredibly good news for Indy campaigners ?

      B. Bury it forever ?

      C. Take a straw poll of office staff, and announce indy support is 32% Yes ?

      The media are carefully and deliberately trying to create a narrative that support for indy is “stuck” in mid 40’s, % wise, and somehow would not go up during an indy campaign.

      Completely ignoring the HUGE 16% increase from pre indyref campaign to the vote in 2014, and the tiny shift required this time to secure victory for Yes.

      Too many Yes folk seem willing to buy into that narrative.

      There is a clear democratic mandate for indy, given by THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND.

      You do not get such a mandate from opinion polls, especially when they are commissioned by media vehemently against independence for Scotland.

      We need to remember that wee factoid.

    53. Rock says:

      Why has the “independence supporting” The National published just one article by the Rev. Stuart Campbell in its more than three years of existence?

    54. Professor John Curtice, now Sir John Curtice of Brillo as reward for his bending of the truth in polls is the Go To Brit Nat pollster.
      His parent UK Company is reported to be 65% funded by HMG.
      I say,’is reported’ because I quote from memory. But I’m pretty sure that May’s Government is a major source of his dosh.
      If so, Boris provides the answer, and Sir Curtice Brillo comes up with the stats.
      He’ll be back on the telly morning noon and night bad mouthing the EssEnnPee when Indyref 2 kickstarts.

    55. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      The link to James Kelly’s blog was posted earlier by Crackerjack but with an .ae domain rather than a .co.uk

      .ae is for the United Arab Emirates which kinda gives a clue as to where he was posting from.

      No wonder he didn’t make it to Glenrothes last night 🙂

    56. Ian says:

      Lies, damned lies and propaganda.

      “These are things that don’t necessarily need to be true. It’s no good fighting an election campaign on the facts, because actually it’s all about emotion. – Cambridge Analitica

      http://www.freshbusinessthinking.com/lies-damned-lies-propaganda-and-cambridge-analytica/

    57. twathater says:

      @ capella 6.41 pm OMG went on to the hootsmon to check comments on Wilson WTF the green ink brigade are out in numbers and spewing their filth and excrement all over the place , domestos couldnae clean that comments section up

      Off for a shower and a deep clean to rid myself of the stench

    58. Dr Jim says:

      There’s a new tracker available, even if a poster has a blank icon you can right click on to find the number and locate the poster, I’m no computer genius but there must be interesting uses for this, I suppose it must be what the polis use
      and now we can

    59. Dr Jim says:

      Daily Record comment on the retail park with the rat infestation, they say that removing the bins will solve the problem
      If it’s that easy can we remove the bins from outside the Scotland office, Tory and Labour party headquarters

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      I wonder what Pete Wishart thinks about the SH take on his “calling for calm” because people actually dare disagree with him strongly, which then casts it gleefully as a “split”?

      So the SH has “rifts” in the Indy Movement, now “splits”, I daresay next it’ll be “wet farts”. Oh dear, pass the tissue.

    61. Thepnr says:

      @Dr Jim

      Very useful information for the future, Ta.

    62. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Jack Collatin (8.01) –

      🙂

      Sir John The Curtice had his own wee room in BBC PQ basement, with a wee zed-bed, official BBC nightgown & cap and a wee candlestick holder. They needed him right there, no time to be fannying about in taxis and doing ‘normal’ work! He was BBC property for the duration and became so comfortable in the place that he took to addressing the presenters by their first names in an embarrassingly overfamiliar style (‘Hi Gary!’)

    63. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      You done fucked up, crackerjack.

    64. Hamish100 says:

      1. didn’t Curtice work with Dimbleby long before he arrived at Strathclyde UNI?

      2. Listened to BBC R4 –Irish gleeful over new jobs going to Dublin in the financial sector because they are in the EU and English speaking post brexit. Are you listening Edinburghers?

      3. Any wee iScot badges or pins around?

    65. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Then Sunday Herald in not just not supporting independence, it is actually attacking independence and Nicola Sturgeon. It has obviously been told to change its stance.

      It is very important we support the National. If it stops supporting itself it will be closed(cue Rock with some boring pish).

    66. Fred says:

      Nice to see auld grannie Wilson leaving her knittin aside to contact the Scotsman to address the masses! ochone, ochone!

    67. ScottieDog says:

      Never bought the herald and certainly won’t in future now that Miss High and mighty is writing for it.
      Have much respect for Pete Wishart although I’m not in agreement with him.

    68. Capella says:

      @ twathater – never read the btl comments on newspaper articles, unless you want to be scunnered by the shoddiness that passes for thought with some people.
      This is what makes WoS so different. Class comments as well as articles.

    69. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      The National has been publishing articles online on a Sunday for some time, perhaps it’s moving to a printed Sunday copy as well, it should do.

    70. Thepnr says:

      @ScottieDog

      Pete Wishart is one of us and no one should be giving him a hard time about his views. We all have them and he is entitled to his.

      I respect Pete Wishart, there are those that wish us not to.

    71. Meg merrilees says:

      Gus 1940

      I thought the news of the gas attack was timely especially when reporting it on the World Service last night, they mentioned the White Helmets in the same breath.

      Re the Skripals:

      Could it be that the plan was always for them to move to America.
      How could they achieve that? First Julia gets a visa to innocently visit her father ( whose wife and son have died mysteriously). Father possibly has been working for the USA – one report early on said that he was involved the investigation into the Russia/Trump election campaign.

      Create a smoke-screen and have a fake poisoning event which everyone knew they would recover from; keep them in hospital supposedly in Intensive care which is easy to keep isolated. Trump gets the UK to effectively create the ‘let’s throw out our Russina diplomat’ wave, which would have looked odd if the USA had initiated it; meanwhile Trump play-acts by phoning Putin to congratulate him on winning the election while T May looks strong and stable.

      Everyone is quids in – T May appears to come across as a strong leader Corbyn meanwhile trashed with the anti-semitism rubbish because he is a threat to too many fingers in pies at the next election;
      Trump congratulates Putin – what a nice man Trump is; then he expels Russian diplomats to supposedly support his ally – the UK but really to stop them spying on whatever he is planing to do next in the USA.
      Then – surprise, surprise, the Skripals recover and now they are being given new identities and a new life in America. Oh and the pets? Well they can’t take them to the USA so they had to be put down and no-one knows what state they were in because Porton Down has incinerated them.

      Too many strange coincidences and a funny smell throughout.

    72. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If the Pete Wishart stushie is the most we have to worry about then we don’t actually have *anything* to worry about.

      It’s astonishing that major schisms haven’t developed in the SNP after a full decade of holding power. If anything, serious clashes and disputes have been restricted to prominent indy players in alternative/social media, much to our mutual boredom and frustration, aye, BUT – if it turns out that places like this, Bella, CS etc have, with their incessant bickering, inadvertently helped to stabilise the SNP’s government of the nation, then fair do’s, surely? We all have a function in this process, even if it’s sometimes hard to discern.

      🙂

    73. Daisy Walker says:

      I disagree with Pete Wishart.

      I am not angry at him, and do not disrespect him ( other than a calling him Pete Wishywashy, obviously, which I now regret, but I still disagree with him on his current position).

      And actually re the Wishywashy bit, no, actually he’s earned that! So there!

      Love and kisses – or hugs, ‘n maybe some chocolate, but the rations hav’nae started yet an wir needing tae stock pile. Cheerie. Yes Now x.

    74. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 10.51

      That would be great

    75. Crackerjack says:

      Tomorrow’s National Twitter pages:

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational

    76. Capella says:

      @ Meg merrilees – Veterans Today says that Skripal Snr was involved in sending British made, from Porton Down, chemical weapons to the Syrian rebels. Also says that British, American and Israeli personnel have been captured in East Ghouta with stocks of chemical weapons.
      I have no idea how reliable this is. But if true, it is horrific and we are now in a very dangerous place:

      https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/04/08/proof-intel-drop-trump-bolton-behind-syria-chemical-attacks-confirmed/

    77. North chiel says:

      Meg merilles @1115pm , agree , very sinister sequence of events recently with not only international implications but also domestic “ better together” “ British military jingoistic “ our boys” patriotic “ Russia/Putin bad “. connotations. Watching Sky “ news” and so called “ press review” tonight full on Russia Iran and Syria gov. Baad propaganda near hysteria over “ chemical attack” ?
      Looks suspiciously like US military action of course backed up to the hilt by Boris and Tory ( “ defence ?? Obsessed” Junta now “ running the show at Westminster”.). With EBC ,SKY and compliant press ratcheting up the state propaganda , any dissent at home will of course be fully treasonable. What better boost to the “ precious precious union” than possible “ British” military action ? Consequently the SNP gov. dare not “ not support” Westminster over “ Tory defence of the realm” decisions. What better way to defend the union at home than “ fighting” the Indyref 2 to a back drop of a military or even nuclear stand off ( trident upgrade so now justified ?) against Putin and his “ axis of evil”.
      Oh yes , Brexit a distant memory and the “ precious precious union saved” ?
      Corbyn discredited and May acclaimed as the new “ Maggie Thatcher” . Rule Britannia ! and a nice little earner for the Tory owned defence industry as a bonus

    78. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      I’d be wary of any such report, but that goes two ways. I like to listen to the actual people and make my mind up.

      Was working during the night on a 40 hour job which is going to be a 44 hour job at least and knackered my fingers during 11 solid hours so a delay, but anyway you get Clyde 1 or Sky news on, and there were two bits of interest. One was a UK ex-ambassador (to Russia I think) who was saying like “it’s so terrible working with people with no honour”.

      Hello mr abassador, a couple of definitions for you: ambassador: ” a diplomatic official of the highest rank”, diplomat: “a person who can deal with others in a sensitive and tactful way”. Ooops oop FAIL. So he lost any credibility immediately.

      Second was about the chemical attack and Sky didn’t really take sides. My first thought was rebels expoiting the split between Russia and the West. Why on earth would Assad attract unfavourable attention for the sake of a small-scale attack (80 people not genocide)? And nothing in it for Russia either, I think they just want their Med base for their Black Sea Fleet after getting out through the narrows, same as the UK and the US have, Med and Gulf for theirs.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      Forgot the third bit on Sky news, the Skripal niece wanting to come to the UK to visit family but refused visa. Again well balanced reporting, I think new news gets reported quite straight, and it’s only then the establishment gets in “If you want to interview cabinet minstiers you swallow our line hook and sinker”.

      Anyways, DC’s Legends of Tomorrow now, some reality in my life 🙂

    80. Cubby says:

      The UK Union is a disgusting corrupt entity that we need to break free from. We should have as many referendums as we want if that is what is voted for by the people of Scotland. We certainly do not have to go cap in hand to Westminster for permission. There is no UK written constitution. This once in a generation referendum promise nonsense needs to be kicked in to outer space for the total crap that it is.

      How can any Scot believe it is ok to be governed by all these chancers like May Cameron Brown Blair Major Thatcher. what a rogues gallery.

      A referendum every 4 years ( just like the World Cup) until enough Scots take the blinkers off their eyes is fine by me.

      Vote SNP Vote Yes for Indepence.

    81. Cubby says:

      Salisbury – still not seen any evidence to disprove that it was not bad oysters served up in the restaurant.. Ha Ha The world is going mad. Theresa May is the mad hatter.

    82. Tatu3 says:

      In a book I’m reading at the moment, but quite apt I thought. If you replace “king” with “PM”

      “If you want to be remembered as a good king, you have two choices. Either you are a king in good times, with the fortune to sit on the throne during years of plenty. Or you’re the king who leads the country out of a time of crisis. And if it isn’t a time of crisis, you can pretend, start a war and show how deep a crisis the country would be in if it didn’t go to war, and make out that things are terrible. It didn’t matter if it was only a small war, the important thing was winning it.”

    83. Capella says:

      @ Yesindyref2 – yes it’s right to be cautious. OTOH if you don’t watch TV news you are spared the jingoism and can weigh up the online evidence.

      My conclusion – the Salisbury affair is a false flag op aimed at putting Russia in the dock of world opinion so that the subsequent chemical attack in Syria can be seen as a cassus belli.

      BTW, tomorrow Russia’s chief prosecutor will publish their findings on the Litvinenko and Beresovsky deaths. This will include statements from Theresa May.
      But will the British press report it?

    84. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      I keep an open mind. A bit of a despairing one to be honest, if it’s Russia it’s amateur and that’s worrying, and if not then the UK is totally amateur and that’s worrying too. Nothing so dangerous with a gun as a complete amateur, they could shoot anyone.

    85. Dr Jim says:

      Thatcher had her Falklands, Blair had his non existent WMDs,
      Cameron tried hard but couldnae get a good one going, Theresa May picks Russia

      Now we hear the Russian man and his daughter are going to get some sort of witness protection deal from the CIA in America

      So here’s a thought, where in America, a country who’s suspicious of everybody with a foreign accent, let alone a Russian accent, do you relocate this Russian couple after their pictures have been on world wide TV where they’re not going to be noticed by somebody even in the likes of Nowheresville Kentucky or Whereama Alabama

      This whole story stunk the place up from the start and the smell of British incompetence is all over it, and if this is the best the British intelligence services can come up with I’m going into the McNovimac business

      *Buy McNovimac the deadly poison stuff that disnae work*

      I think it could be a goer!

    86. Dr Jim says:

      Nicola could have a war on the *Tongs ya bass*
      serious credibility booster there

      All the Yoons would have faith in her then, defo votes in it

    87. Dr Jim says:

      If you take the city of London out of RUK growth figures RUK is in recession, making Scotland the highest growth in these islands, and that’s even against RUK running the macro economy

    88. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, 2 + 2 = 5 territory, and Rudd the Remainer is making her move on May and Boris, backed by some powerful unknowns including some media, and will become PM within a few weeks, cancelling Brexit. You read it here first.

      And we’ll all live happily pissed off ever after.

    89. DH says:

      Although I support independence, I disagree here
      This is not about a nominal 1p increase. This shows the intent of the Sturgeon government (Salmond I don’t think would have done this as he is less left leaning)
      So for a high earner (myself) it shows I can’t trust her which is a reason we lost the referendum. This does not help get the 55% to contemplate switching

    90. Sandy says:

      OT
      50th anniversary of our National Anthem.

      FLOWER O’ SCOTLAND.

      Let’s show the world that we can rightfully be acclaimed as the proudest & most genuine country in the universe.
      Come on all you REAL Scots.

    91. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      ———–
      Cubby says:
      9 April, 2018 at 1:04 am

      Salisbury – still not seen any evidence to disprove that it was not bad oysters served up in the restaurant..
      ———

      TBH I suspect a good old British cock-up here. As you suggest they get mussel poisoning that looks a lot like these chemical weapons but is in fact entirely natural. A pathologist reports some form of words, “nerve acting agent” or somesuch, at which point some minor official, just back from his Fiendish Chemical Weapons course on Salisbury Plain and so suitably mentally primed, goes “OMG an ‘agent’!” etc. (How we understand the world depends rather more on our expectations than we’d be happy to admit, after all). This is passed up the chain of ‘intelligence’ and several knee-jerk reactions later Russians are being expelled all over Europe. May having simply seen the incident as a most welcome distraction and so again taken it on board gladly, if uncritically.

      Eventually someone somewhere realizes they’ve made the mother and father of a boo-boo, and so helpfully begins to ‘adjust the facts’ to smear the Russians. Since no one wants to admit they were had, everyone has to stick to the now ‘official’ story, dead cats, doorknobs and all.

      Oh dear! “Send three-and-fourpence, we’re going to a dance”.

    92. How anyone would believe any “poll” when we know all pollsters have access to everyone’s psychographic profile?

      They can choose who to poll to obtain the required result.

      Polls are made to influence public opinion, not to measure it.

      Especially those that are then used in the mainstream media to tow the line dictated by the struggling government of the day.

    93. Ken500 says:

      Cochrane has got a column in the Telegraph about British values. Slagging off Scotland. Ben Wallace. Ie Blowing the Middle East to bits. In support for the state of Israel. An apartheid state kept afloat by US money. In defiance of International Law. Without US money the state of Israel would not exist. The US spends half it’s taxed raised on the military. Sanctions and starves it’s citizens to death, No public funds for healthcare or education. The highest debt in the world. One of the most unequal and unfair. With £Billionaires illegally buying elections and not protection data as required by Law. Most of them should be in jail.

      The murdering spy with food poisoning was responsible for the ‘dirty dossier on Trump. Along with Steele the ex M15 operative, who has already been investigated by a Commons committee. Commissioned and pay for by Clinton using Saudi money. M15/CIA were illegally bugging Trump and he knows it. Johnston is a liar and a crook. An imbecile.

      Nick Hancock is now in charge of the corrupt Cambridge Analytica/SCL investigation. The Tories once again illegally investigating themselves. When it should be the Police. Dick is suspect. OBE for failure. There are now not enough Police. May cut funding. Killing even more people. The complete and utter shambles of the UK Gov. rumbles on. Payment for failure.Grotesque projects of no value while they sanction and starve people to death.

      Minimum pricing introduced in May will save £millions. Along with one chance, total abstinence proper rehab counselling will save lives.

      The Tories now killing off their own supporters. The elderly. Vote Tory die younger. Elderly death up 117% in the rest of the UK. Shameful.

      The Russian/USSR pop has halved since 1990!s. From 300Million (on par with the US) to 150Million. Putin etc have released 150Million people to self determination, prosperity and democracy? For economic reasons. Since the 1980’s. The most in history? Putin was one of the only world leaders who supported self determination for Scotland and called out Cameron’s lies and duplicity.

      Putin has halved poverty in Russia. 50%. No wonder the Russians support and admire him. With rating that the western politicans can only envy. Except some in Scotland. Nicola and Alex etc. World class. Known throughout the world. They put Scotland on the map. The Chinese say that Scotland is the ‘land of invention’. Scottish invention shaped the modern world. One of the first countries to have tertiary education,

      Scotland has many friends in Europe. Auld Alliances including with Russia. 26Million Russians died in the 11WW saving the West, The biggest sacrifice which devastated the Russian economy. It happened soon after the 1WW and the Russian Revolution, The 1WW caused by the european royal family – Q Victoria – German inter family rivalries and disputes. The ‘divine right to rule’. Millions died. Even more of illness. The Spanish flu. Spain did not enter the 1 or 11WW. The Spanish civil war. The result decided by hired German planes but Hitler could not stand Franco.

    94. Ken500 says:

      Spanish Civil War 1936-39. Franco wanted to regain overseas Spanish territory 11WW. Hitter did not share that ambition. Described Franco in derogatory terms

    95. Breeks says:

      The problem with what Pete Wishart says isn’t what Pete Wishart says, (he is genuinely more than welcome to his free thinking opinion), but the alarming possibility that his views are the prevailing views and settled policy that steering the actions and decisions amongst the SNP hierarchy. People are left to wonder whether Pete Wishart has simply been honest and/or indiscreet enough to let it be known, or whether everything is good, no cause for alarm because Pete is just flying a kite to see which way the wind is blowing.

      If the SNP are indeed “playing to lose” over Brexit, and leave Scotland’s Remain majority high and dry without even making the attempt to stay in Europe, then a great many people are going to very angry about the supine inaction of the SNP, the squandering of so much high grade pro-Independence raw material and progressive initiatives that are mishandled time and time again. The biggest open goal being missed by a mile is Brexit, the screaming Constitutional head to head which the Union fundamentally cannot survive, but then the SNP squeaks out in favour making do with a soft Brexit and EFTA… and inadvertently sticks a knife in the back of Scotland’s apparently “notional” concept of Sovereignty.

      Don’t mention the “I” word??? What??? GET THE BLOODY “I” WORD AT THE TOP OF A PETITION TO THE EUCJ TO HAVE SCOTLAND’S LEGITIMATE LAWFUL SOVEREIGNTY FORMALLY RECOGNISED, AND SCOTLAND’S PROTEST ABOUT BREXIT AND OUR UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND UNDEMOCRATIC SUBJUGATION FORMALLY DISPUTED.

      If the SNP cannot react to all the looming catastrophes of Brexit, the sociopathic idiocy of Westminster bringing society to its knees, the psychotic British warmongering with Spain, Syria, Yemen, Iran, Russia, Euroasia, Eastasia, the rampant out of control greed of the UK Establishment parasites, the unhinged rabid bias and gross unprofessionalism of UK “journalism”, … If the SNP cannot make one fist with these arch-grievances, and a second powerful haymaker out of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, then you have to wonder whether the real problem is SNP’s lack of guts and stomach for a battle. What the feck are you doing??? You are acting like a rabbit that is mesmerised by a stoat.

      If you don’t want to stand up for Scotland’s democracy, Scotland’s Constitution, and Scotland’s sovereign will to stay in Europe, then just get out of the way of those who do. We expected a lot more from you than this, and you have left us dangerously short of time to get ourselves coordinated and put together an alternative pro Independence group that is both Constitutionally literate and fully committed to staying in Europe.

    96. Ken500 says:

      Amber Rudd the criminal, failed banker still trying to depopulate Scotland. Another legitimate family being threatened with deportation. Rotten Tories. The Felbers did not achieve their target but others did. The Scottish Gov should put up a fund for people who obey the rules but get threatened with deportation. It is a complete and utter disgrace. Policies which are not aligned with the Scottish economy. Apart from being coarse and cruel.

    97. Dorothy Devine says:

      Dr Jim , you forgot Cameron buggered up Libya – credit where credit is due.

      Surely with regard to the idiocy being blurted by Johnson , May et al about Russian involvement , there is some BIG whistle blower waiting in the wings?

      Meanwhile the two Russians will be ‘vanished ‘ by the bully boys in the West.

      Independence NOW!

    98. Ken500 says:

      Pete Wishart and the SNP are the only ones capable of getting over the line. Go back under the rock. Two unanswered e-mail certainly left an impression.

      The non elected Pollsters that advised giving up the SNP majority to vote for other Parties. Then complain about a majority. Totally suspect. They are the ones that make people really angry. Trying to cloud the issues. Manipulating the result. Ignorant and useless.

      The IndyRef, the EU Ref and the GE all illegally manipulated by criminal Pollsters. Cambridge Analytica/SCL Tories. A sham of democracy like everything else. They should all be declared null and void. Elected members will decide the date and time. That is why they were elected. That’s what they are there. To make decisions. Not criminal pollsters etc with ulterior motives. Jumping on the bandwagon and contributing nonsense. Their ill intentioned ‘advice’ cost the all out majority in every election. Trust them at your peril. Not likely.

    99. Les Wilson says:

      There is a quiet spell in the SNP, yes they are doing their upmost to improve life here across the board and they are good at that, no doubts.

      However, there seems compliance with the Westminster system, they are accepting the way it works rather than ruffle the establishment. They could of course be playing the game as without being to controversial, thus drawing less rabid media focus, which takes time and effort to react to.
      However they cannot do that at the expense of Indy2.

      When the May convention comes up, I hope for a change, a rally for Indy and a start to loudly call out Westminster over their treatment of Scotland on all levels, taking no more nonsense and being very vocal about it.They must possess the tools to do that, as evidence is everywhere.

      Conformation of Indy2 coming very soon is needed, and a to rally the active groups who are chapping at the bit,and not a little frustrated at how things have been going.They really need to show how they do not only govern Scotland well, but will also pursue Indy2 with everything they have. We are waiting.

      Win or lose god forbid, there will never be a better time to make our play as Westminster remains in chaos.

    100. Ken500 says:

      In or out of the EU. Scotland needs Independence more. The rest can be negotiated. Especially since the majority of the UK are in favour of staying in. The Tories will be out. 3rd May. May and the rest will soon be gone. Labour etc are useless. Plenty of time for another IndyRef. The right time of any choosing. What’s the panic? Jump the starting gun when the opposition is in the ropes. Patience is a virtue. Any Westminster leader who does not support Independence for Scotland lasts two years on average. Play to that advantage. They will soon cotton on. If they want to survive.

    101. wull2 says:

      In old days they said, Don’t fire till you see the whites of their eyes,
      Today I am saying, Don’t fire the starting gun until everyone sees what they have negotiated, which will be almost nothing.

      Then tell everyone to vote YES

    102. Col says:

      The SNP should state that in the event of a failed indy ref 2 they will fight every election there on in that if a majority of Scots vote for their party they will be dissolving the union. We should take independence when the people are ready.

    103. Capella says:

      OT @ yesindyref2 – you might be interested in this radio piece by a Russian analyst who quotes Chinese intelligence on the situation in East Ghouta. I thought of you as it mentions the hardware, but also the numbers of UK personnel captured including those trying to escape by dressing up in Arab womens clothes. An old theme! From a link in Craig’s comments.
      c 10 mins.

    104. starlaw says:

      Just caught the end of Lord Adonis ripping Garry Robertson a new one over BBC bias. Would love to have heard this entire interview as he did not miss and hit the wall over lack of BBC reporting of anti Tory demonstrations across Britain Edinburgh included, also the gross over exposure given to Nigel Farage on QT. Wished I had tuned in just a wee bit earlier.

    105. louis.b.argyll says:

      Breeks. Huh? Fist, haymaker, are these symbolic or genuine political strategies?

      Keeping powder dry, through gritted teeth, is the current diplomatic path that Mike Russell is treading..exploring ALL existing legal avenues first.

      Subjugation is matched by self-confidence.

    106. Capella says:

      Oops sorry about the embed – it’s a vimeo video which obviously bypasses the system.
      Stu may want to remove it. Hope I don’t get he hammers!

    107. heedtracker says:

      starlaw says:
      9 April, 2018 at 8:57 am
      Just caught the end of Lord Adonis ripping Garry Robertson a new one over BBC bias.

      Ah yes, Lab Lord Adonis, another Westminster cracker that no one in this farce union with England actually voted for, ever, chats to another beeb cracker, who no one listens to, unless they have to.

      Welcome to the world of 2018 tory teamGB.

      wiki

      Following his appointment to the House of Lords, Adonis became the Minister of State for Education.

      Me

      Once his Lordship got in, this socialist worker invented student fees and the privatisation of English higher ed.

    108. Walter Hamilton says:

      I listened to a little of the paper review on SKY this morning and the reporter from The Scotsman sat there like a dummy as they went on about staff in the NHS (in England and Wales) who have to pay for parking at work, and on knife crime and shootings in England and Wales, was not allowed to comment on how Scottland had tackled the problem leading to a 40 year low in reported crime. However, she was allowed to comment on a book review. We don’t even get national news anymore, English rule OK.

    109. Clootie says:

      @Capella

      …it was nice knowing you but I fear the hammer option may indeed be followed.
      An embedded video clip far exceeds the crime of no paragraph break…bye

    110. Dan Huil says:

      Another new uk poll:

      Con 43% (-1)
      Lab 38% (-3)
      LD 8% (nc)
      SNP 4% (+1)
      Grn 3% (+1)
      UKIP 3% (+1)

      https://www.ncpolitics.uk/2018/04/voting-intention-conservatives-in-the-lead.html/

      Scotland sub-sample:

      SNP 46% (+9)
      Con 22% (-7)
      Lab 16% (-11)
      LD 13% (+6)
      Grn 3% (+3)
      UKIP 0 (nc)

    111. Valerie says:

      Stu

      don’t use the hammers on Capella! It was a genuine mistake!

      @starlaw

      Andrew Adonis may be a Lord, but to be fair, he is very active on Twitter, and very vocal in his criticism of the Beeb, so fair play to him, because folk are listening to him.

      Re. Skripal. Latest yarn is that the poison was ’boutique’ or tailor made. It may well be, but that just makes it harder to square how the idiots running UK could announce with certainty it was Novichok, or related, and it was definitely Russian, all in 24 hours.

      I also read somewhere that UK and CIA were discussing how the Skripals would be given new identities and resettled to prevent any other attempts on their life.

      CIA tend to be good at protecting their assets.

      It’s just a coincidence that there’s been another chemicals attack reported by the White Helmets in Syria again. Isn’t it?

    112. schrodingers cat says:

      Dan Huil

      sub samples in scotland of uk polls vary wildly because they use such a small sample size.

    113. Dan Huil says:

      @schrodingers cat 10.00am

      True.

    114. ronnie anderson says:

      louis .b . argyll The Wright Bros flew by the seat of their pants & if we took cognison of comments like breeks & such like minded people that’s what we would be doing . Brexit will unfold in good time for Nicola to bring forward the Mandate SNP are the only Political Party who we can Trust to deliver OUR INDEPENDENCE . ( i don’t have membership of any political party )

    115. Capella says:

      @ Clootie – farewell!
      @ Valerie – I think I may have got away with it. Still hiding behind the sofa though in case the wrath of RJS descends.

      That poll is verey good news even if it is a small sample (I don’t know but the cat seems to) but since eveyone else publishes dodgy polls lets just enjoy this little boost.

    116. louis.b.argyll says:

      Capella, where’s the real link..?

    117. manandboy says:

      As the pressure increases in the entire political and financial system, it doesnt require a wizard to understand that a somewhat violent correction is in the offing.

      However, the effect of long-term brainwashing here in the UK is to create an enduring belief in the population that the Government must know what it is doing and that everything will be ok.

      Like the passengers on the Titanic, there’s nothing we can do about it now.

      Vote No and Tory for that sinking feeling.

      Vote Yes & SNP to launch Scotland’s Independence lifeboat.

    118. Capella says:

      @ louis.b.argyll – If you mean the video – I got it from a comment by kiza on Craigs website:
      https://tinyurl.com/y8gy5rhp

      If you mean the poll it’s from Dan Huil at 9.39:
      https://www.ncpolitics.uk/2018/04/voting-intention-conservatives-in-the-lead.html/

    119. heedtracker says:

      ronnie anderson, future nation state Scotland is not a couple of guys on a beach at KittyHawk N. Carolina.

      Its perfectly legit to discuss indryref2 when and why. Its perfectly to legit to speculate what happens if SNP lose next GE’s and we’ve missed what is the fundamental point in Brexit’s progress, to decide whether or not follow England again or rather continue to be governed by Brexit England.

      Wishart says listen to the NO vote in Scotland, combined with the SNP/YES/Brexiteers voters too. They’ve decided Scotland’s future.

      All fair enough and that looks like what’s going to happen. Maybe consider Scots indref2 in say 2024 or 2026 perhaps, if there is an SNP Scots gov. A decade or more away from 2014 may well be enough.

    120. schrodingers cat says:

      agreed ronnie

      that WM is deliberately destroying scotlands economy and holyrood is evident, it has been doing this for some time. it is important we win our independence asap.
      of course we are all disappointed that support for yes has remained static and it means that indyref2 probably wont happen before next spring.
      some of us have taken this news harder than others, accusing others of being cowards, tractors and abandoning the cause etc. but i think this is nothing more that an indication of the level of their disappointment.

    121. Breastplate says:

      Agreed Heedtracker,
      We should all be discussing various aspects of independence and how to achieve that, including SNP strategy. As you say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with speculation on how to achieve what is rightfully ours.
      It’s also ok to disagree with each other politely.

    122. Breeks says:


      louis.b.argyll says:
      9 April, 2018 at 9:02 am
      Breeks. Huh? Fist, haymaker, are these symbolic or genuine political strategies?

      Keeping powder dry, through gritted teeth, is the current diplomatic path that Mike Russell is treading..exploring ALL existing legal avenues first.

      Subjugation is matched by self-confidence.

      Well, strikes me Pete Wishart isn’t exactly keeping his powder dry, but “framing” the debate for the inevitability of a Brexited Scotland. Me no likey. Far as I’m concerned, that’s metaphorically pissing in the gunpowder, certainly not keeping it dry.

      Since the 24th June 2016, can you point to any commitment made by the SNP to defend Scotland’s place in Europe? I’m not talking about EFTA, not a FTA, not access to the Single Market, not staying part of a Customs Union, no compromise or backward step away from the sovereign act of staying a member of the EU. I didn’t vote for any of these. I voted together with 62% of our sovereign Scottish Citizens to stay in the EU. End of…. Will the SNP formally contest the removal of Scotland from Europe? Yes/No answer required.

      Staying a member of the EU, the very act of NOT leaving, is the ONLY sovereign mandate which Scotland has delivered with regards to Brexit. If the SNP sees fit to ignore that, then what chance is there getting the EU or Westminster to respect our Constitutional Sovereignty when our own elected government thinks they can walk all over it themselves? Furthermore, it is hardly the attitude you might expect from somebody who is planning a Constitutional test case to defend a concept of sovereignty which they apparently don’t even recognise themselves.

      I want to see an explicit and unambiguous commitment from the Scottish Government, which was put in place as servant of the people by the same democratic doctrine as Scotland’s Remain vote, that our own Scottish Government properly respects the will of the Scottish people as sovereign.

      Yes, I agree, Mike Russell is indeed making some encouraging noises about Constitutional principles and legality. But Mike Russell is planning to test the Constitutional legitimacy of Brexit consequentials, not Brexit itself. He is fighting Westminster for command over powers AFTER they have just been ripped away from Europe where they properly belong for optimum potency, bolstered by the common purpose of the great EU Collective body of Nations. The ONLY Constitutional mandate which Mike Russell has, is to keep those powers UN-Brexited, and left IN Europe’s capable hands.

      I mostly support every thing that Mike Russell is doing, but here again, we see the same constant feature increasingly conspicuous by its absence, – the fundamental commitment to respect and defend Scotland’s Constitutionally Sovereign edict to remain in the EU.

      It is not sufficient for the SNP merely to be the “least damaging” Brexiteer alternative. Not good enough. That position is simply untenable because it puts you on the wrong side of a Constitutional watershed. The SNP MUST defend Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty, because failure to do so makes the SNP just one more part of the problem, not a part of the solution.

      If the SNP will not defend the sovereign mandate to remain in the EU, then some other body could and should, and the SNP then risks being denounced as being every bit as Unconstitutional and undemocratic as the Unionist Parties. Shocking, but true.

      Be clear, the Sovereign Remain vote was a democratic majority delivered by a sovereign people. The political / democracy box has already been ticked, so the “who else you gonna vote for” hubris isn’t going to cut much ice here. It seems possible to me that a private citizen, just like Scotland’s own Gina Millar, could petition the EUCJ for the 2016 Sovereign Brexit edict, backed by a 62% democratic majority, to be formally recognised as the legal, legitimate, and recognised will of a Constitutionally Sovereign people.

      Strikes me yet another crowd funding campaign might be needed. We should crowd fund our own Constitutional Lawyer to do what the Scottish Government apparently refuses to. Maybe it’s time to ask if the SNP is for us or agin us. Better still, maybe the SNP should show a little more initiative here.

    123. John Morris says:

      Evening Times online 8th April…….
      Sunday Times Panelbase poll for Scottish Independence. 1037 people polled ,against 57% for43%.
      Evening Times own online poll…7288 people, 77% for 23% against.
      Can anyone please explain the discrepancy.

    124. Old Pete says:

      We can and we will win the next referendum on Scottish Independence. However it must be before the next Scottish parliamentary elections or you can forget it being allowed to happen ever again.

    125. louis.b.argyll says:

      Ronnie Anderson,
      good point Ronnie, the successfully-campaigned-for-mandate for a referendum is secure, under any nations law (except perhaps courts in Spain, Myanmar, England etc) where it matters not.

      Why interrupt our Imperial masters when they’re making small-minded fools of themselves.

      Btw, I’m also not a member of any political party.

    126. heedtracker says:

      Old Pete says:
      9 April, 2018 at 10:47 am
      We can and we will win the next referendum on Scottish Independence. However it must be before the next Scottish parliamentary elections or you can forget it being allowed to happen ever again

      Or as Pete Wishart points out, we should really just accept the choices made by Scotland’s NO vote 2014 and the SNP/YES/Brexiteer vote, 2016.

      Scotland settles down to Holyrood 5 year election cycle, a mini Westminster, in Scotland, changing Scots gov pending how each one does and which party BBC etc decides. Maybe even give SNP another shotty.

      As the UKOK decades roll by, we all keep an eye on indy polls, that never show YES majority, based on the fact that they never have to date.

    127. Ken500 says:

      Flights to China start in June. Alex Salmond. No slow boats to China.

    128. HandandShrimp says:

      The Scotsman is a Tory rag. The headline is nothing you wouldn’t expect to see on the neoconservative Mail or Express.

      Any claims that the Scotsman was going to plough a more neutral political line are as evident as Donalda’s claim that the BBC was going to be more even handed. If anything both have become more rabidly right wing (as Corbyn is discovering).

    129. Ken500 says:

      If people in Scotland vote by a majority for a Party who has a mandate to hold an Independence Ref in Scotland. It can be held whenever they like. That is how Holyrood came about in the first place. Some would say with too few powers. They can vote for a Party that promises increased power and a vote on Independence. The clue is if people go out and vote and they do not listen to poor advice from Pollsters.

    130. schrodingers cat says:

      for what it is worth, i think the polls in scotland and england are coloured by brexit, eg the swings in labour support seem to follow the swings in corbyns attitude to brexit, but in the next few months we will see

      1.there will be a transitional deal negotiated with europe (ni will stay in CU)

      2. The labour party will vote for it, they have no choice, if they dont it will fail and we will crash out with no deal and corbyn will get blamed for the hard brexit.

      3. the mogites and dup will be furious, expect leadership challenge minimum, they could also bring down government and a GE in may19.

      Only then will the polls settle down, once the parties publish their manifestos

    131. ronnie anderson says:

      heedtracker If i thought breekse’s comment was bad your comment is much worcer much 24/26 where does that come from . You’ve bypassed a great deal of scenarios that are here & now that will change people’s perceptions on Independence . try and be a bit more positive & lose that negativity no body/person enters into any contest with thoughts of losing otherwise why bother in the 1st place .

      Independence is for the younger generation our Children/G children/GG children & the betterment of all who choose to live in Scotland .

    132. galamcennalath says:

      Old Pete says:

      We can and we will win the next referendum on Scottish Independence. However it must be before the next Scottish parliamentary elections or you can forget it being allowed to happen ever again.

      Totally agree. However … we need to have it well before Holyrood2021.

      If/when we win a YES vote, WM will not immediately accept it. They will prevaricate in much the same fashion as with Brexit negotiations. They will at best delay and non cooperate, while at worst they will try to stop us.

      The nightmare scenario would be a YES win, followed by a BritNat win at Holyrood21 while we are still tied into their Union!

      There should/must be no more devolution based elections, only an election to choose our first full independent parliament.

    133. schrodingers cat says:

      breeks
      the only way for scotland to regain any eu status, efta/eea/eu whatever, is for us to win indyref2

    134. louis.b.argyll says:

      Breeks,
      I fully understand your points but disagree with your proposed solutions, on grounds of misjudging shifting spheres of influence under a hostile media.

    135. Iain says:

      The best way to win indy 2,is for the Scottish government to promise to pay at least the the European average old age pension.
      The Westminster government pays among the lowest old age pension in the developed world.
      Apart from anything else it is the right thing to do.

    136. heedtracker says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      9 April, 2018 at 11:21 am
      heedtracker If i thought breekse’s comment was bad your comment is much worcer much 24/26 where does that come from .

      True enough Ronnie. SNP manifesto is clear, if circumstance merit one, vote SNP for undyref2.

      Peter Wishart says wait for the polls to show YES win likely, abide by NO and SNP/Brexiteers.

      We did vote NO 2014, cant say any fairer than that.

      If Brexit day next year is not an indyref2 circumstance change, nothing is. Or at least I cant think of anything else like it.

      A coup in England, Trident nuke going off on the Clyde maybe, England winning the world cup in Russia?

      Simple as possible, if its not before next Scots GE, its never going to happen. As we can all see with our own eyes every day, Westminster, red or blue tory, is going to neuter Holyrood as much as possible. Why not, time is on their side.

    137. schrodingers cat says:

      the snp’s policy is

      we should hold indyref2 when we believe we will win

      petes position is consistent with this ie,

      we shouldn’t hold indyref2 when we believe we will lose.

      neither are time limited, both could refer to next week, next year, next decade etc.

      personally, i dont think it will be this september, but , sept 19 is a possibility

    138. Robert Kerr says:

      I shall never forgive the SNP if through lack of timely action on their part I lose my European Citizenship.

    139. Capella says:

      Interesting article on RT about a spat between the Scottish Government and Ben Wallace over the language used in schools:

      https://www.rt.com/uk/423557-scotland-british-pc-terror/

    140. Indy2 says:

      If the SNP hold off until the next Scottish elections then the Tories/English Establishment will throw every penny they can at making sure it is a Unionist majority at Holyrood.

      That will lead to us losing our Mandate to hold IndyRef2.

      Look how they toppled Alex Salmond and others, they will use the same strategy.

    141. TheWasp says:

      Iain @ 11.36

      I think you are half right with that pension point, but in the last few weeks, as I reported on here,I was interacting with middle age to older yoons on my MPs Facebook page. I have given up even visiting the page as they are entrenched in their views, and no amount of facts or argument will ever changing their perception of the SNP being unfit to run the country, or how we can possibly do anything better outwith our precious, precious union.

    142. schrodingers cat says:

      heed
      if its not before next Scots GE, its never going to happen.
      ———–
      I genuinely think indyref2 will be before the next Scots GE and would only revisit this issue if it wasnt.

      but, if this senario did occur, we could stand yes candidates in the 5 regions where only unionist list msps were elected in 2016

      this would ensure a majority in support of indyref2 in the next parliament

    143. Archbishop of Dork says:

      We should just quietly leave Wishart Washee to his bit part role in the Westminster pantomime.

      We’ve got Scotland to win.

    144. Indy2 says:

      Why are the Polls not moving in our direction?

      Is it a case of “Hold your fire” ?

      Should the SNP/Greens be doing more to promote Scottish Independence?

    145. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert Kerr says:
      9 April, 2018 at 11:49 am
      I shall never forgive the SNP if through lack of timely action on their part I lose my European Citizenship.
      ——————-

      1. we havent left the eu yet.
      2. there are still moves being made to stop it happening
      3. Timely action? the snp’s mandate only applies if we are dragged out.

    146. Meg merrilees says:

      Capella

      re the new polls above.
      I agree that it’s good news that the SNP are on 46% but that isn’t enough – if you add up the rest of the votes SNP +greens comes to 49% and the other parties adds up to 51% so we need to get the SNP and greens up another 3 percent at least…

      Re this latest ‘news’ that it was Israel that has bombed the Syrian airbase how does that fit in with this Anti-semitism hysteria directed at Corbyn and Labour just now?

      How easy it would be to infiltrate any political party with ‘sleeper’ members who at any time could be working to a specific agenda, making dodgy tweets, sending contentious letters and generally creating a fug of anti-semitic views until such time as the ‘command HQ’ decides the time is right to launch the great expose. It’s obvious stye are trying to oust Corbyn as he could be electable and foil the great Tory plan.

      Worriesome about the remark above, Capella @11.59, re British involvement in supplying chemical weapons to Syria and implicating Skripal.
      What a mess if that is correct and WHY do we need to give Porton Down vast millions of funding to finance chemical weapon research as was announced, but immediately ignored, by Gareth (Gavin) Williams the defence minister at the beginning of the Skripal incident -which of course is creating an atmosphere where we will need our trident missiles to be safe from Putin’s threats … just at the time that Kim jung il has, it seems, accepted that a condition of the talks with Trump is that nuclear disarmament is on the table.

      What a mess.

    147. Valerie says:

      It’s fair to say us regulars on here want indyref2 asap, but I think we have a particularly informed view of all the shit underway by the Tories.

      The ordinary person on the street probably hasn’t heard of the Rape Clause or even the Power Grab. They know Scotland didnt vote for Brexit, but that things aren’t settled yet via the negotiations. The typical Scot is working all hours, juggling money, kids etc., and those are the priorities.

      We know the future if we don’t get out. We foretold all this crap back in 2014, but we were the hysterics.

      I don’t know if Wishart is flying a kite, but I’m a bit concerned if his caution is a widely held SNP view. Let’s not forget, Nicola made that statement the day after Brexit of Scotland’s position, and every area voting Remain.

      Wishart himself held his seat by 12 votes, an emboldened Unionist front will do anything to exploit delays or caution.

    148. Capella says:

      For background info on opinion polls, samples, methods and interpretations, it’s always worth checking out James Kelly’s Scot Goes Pop site.
      Latest is a discussion on whether or not Scots want another referendum soon. Answer is yes though the Times, which ommissioned it, says the opposite. What a surprise.

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/landmark-panelbase-poll-finds-42-of.html

    149. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Iain at 11:36 am.

      You typed,
      “The best way to win indy 2,is for the Scottish government to promise to pay at least the the European average old age pension.”

      I agree – the prospect of a large rise in the OAP could be the tipping point for my contempories and elders, who may be abstainers or NO voters.

      I should say though (the pedant in me!) that what the SNP should promise is that if they are elected to government in the first general election in an independent Scotland, they will move to bring in the EU average OAP immediately.

      —————————————

      Hi Sandy (if you’re still reading).

      I replied to your post of 6 April, 2018 at 12:51 am in the “Let’s build a rocket” comments on Saturday morning.

      “Can we have a social night in Dumfries, please?”

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/lets-build-a-rocket/comment-page-1/#comment-2352965

    150. Ken500 says:

      If people do not want Holyrood to be dissolved or powers or Independence gone. Do not vote for a Party that would do that. Ie all the unionist Parties or the Greens and lose out an outright majority.

      That is what people did before. They voted for Parties that supported more powers and Independence. Simple.

      Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get another person to do so as well. What is the problem. No one can do anything if people do not vote for them. They will not be in a position to do so.

      Do not listen to misinformation from crooked Pollsters or politicans.

      Unionists can’t do anything if people come out and vote and do not vote for them.

      People did not come out to vote. That is their problem. They are now left with useless Tory/unionists. Destroying the economy. . SNP gets majority victories. Scotland is better run.

      If you lose your EU citizenship it is because of Unionists.

    151. schrodingers cat says:

      Answer is yes
      42% want indyref2
      43% would vote yes

      panel base are at the lower range of polsters results, about 43/44%, other polsters have 46/47%

      so, the answer, unfortunately is no.

      james kelly is just spinning the results cos he, like pete bell, wanted indyref2 this sept.

      these polling results pretty much kick their idea into the long grass

    152. Ken500 says:

      Pollsters gave out false information. That lost the SNP outright majority and boosted the unionists/green vote. On the premise voters were in some way choosing the opposition. The opposite are all the same in any case. It lost the outright majority and boosted the unionist/green vote. Do not get caught out again by Pollsters manipuling the vote with false statement.

      The Pollsters have been censored and fined too many times to be reliable. Honours for cash. Apart from acting totally illegally to manipulate the vote. Most of them could be put in jail.

    153. Indy2 says:

      According to the Polls, we are actually going backwards.

      In Sept 2014 we had 45% wanting Scottish Independence.

      In April 2018 we have 43% wanting Scottish Independence.

      We are not getting the message out. No one is listening. How do we change that?

      In all that time Wings has raised almost half a million pounds in fundraisers. IMO we should be doing more with those funds to promote Independence.

      I also think the SNP have lost their way as well. This is not one of Nicola’s better periods in her Career.

      There is a bit of a rudderless drift setting in.

      Her handling of a few recent events have been out of step with most Indy supporters thinking. The Russian Poisoning being one.

      The whole YES Movement is screaming out for a dominant leader, someone who will take this dream we have and turn it into a reality.

      Brexit is a game changer, and we should sitting with at least 55% of the vote wanting Independence at this moment in time.

      Lets hope Nicola’s thinking is that the only way I am going to convert stubborn NO Voters is to let them see how bad Brexit is, then I will move and call IndyRef2.

      Timing is everything.

      IMHO

    154. Breeks says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      9 April, 2018 at 11:42 am
      the snp’s policy is

      we should hold indyref2 when we believe we will win

      petes position is consistent with this ie,

      we shouldn’t hold indyref2 when we believe we will lose.

      Yeah. That was Frank Hadden’s philosophy in the 2007 Rugby World. He reckoned he couldn’t beat the All Blacks, so didn’t even bother to try and sent out a Scotland B select which the disgusted All Blacks royally thumped 40- 0 to a chorus from cheers from both sets of fans. With the proper team, we might have lost, we might have won. We’ll never fecking know, but be tarnished forevermore for the humiliation of abject capitulation and admitting defeat before the whistle even blew.

      I presume too that the SNP Prima Donnas won’t risk getting their hands dirty standing for election in any marginal seats where there’s any risk of defeat. I thought turning up for the mere formality of victory was typically Labour Party hubris, when they felt they didn’t have to bother their arse campaigning either.

      Strange logic running through the SNP. We’ll only turn up when we can win, and we’ll only respect Scotland’s sovereignty when it suits us.

      You do realise of course, quid pro quo, that I’m not going to vote SNP until I think you can win. And if that doesn’t worry you, it fkn well should. It’s your own impeccable logic at work.

    155. Indy2 says:

      Should Gimmicks” be used in IndyRef2?

      I think they should.

      If you can put forward the claim that an Independent Scotland will have cheaper Electricity and Gas Bills. Or cheaper fuel duty which leads to paying less at the pumps when you are filling up your car. Or pensioners being paid more per week, then I think ideas like that will get through to the average punter.

      So yes, I am all for “gimmicks”.

    156. Capella says:

      @ SC – I think what he’s doing is countering the Times assertion that there is “little support” for an early referendum i.e within the next two years. Clearly that is heavily negative spin from the MSM.

      A comment at the end on the Scottish sub sample is cheering:

      Scotland sub-sample:
      SNP 46% (+9)
      Con 22% (-7)
      Lab 16% (-11)
      LD 13% (+6)
      Grn 3% (+3)
      UKIP 0 (nc)

    157. Breastplate says:

      I agree with Iain amongst others that we should shamelessly bribe the pensioners by upping the pension after independence to what it should be anyway.

    158. schrodingers cat says:

      Breeks

      we will not hold indyref2 until we believe we will win

      end of.
      i dont know when that will be. maybe next week, next month, next year, next decade etc.

      if you take this to mean it will be later than you wanted, commiserations. bear in mind breeks, just because people who think indyref2 needs to be later than you want, sept18, doesnt mean they are any less disappointed. the damage inflicted on scotland by WM is there for all to see

      but losing indyref2 is not an option, we cant afford another gallant loss leaving only another raft of tearful laments by a new disapora, reflecting on a scotland that will by then only exist in song

    159. schrodingers cat says:

      Capella
      @ SC – I think what he’s doing is countering the Times assertion that there is “little support”
      ——————-

      little support, enormous support, more support than elected the tories……..

      sadly, 43-47% isnt a majority, either to hold or win indyref2.

      we wait

    160. Breastplate says:

      My own personal opinion about independence referendums is that we should have one every time the SNP are voted into power in Holyrood.
      None of this shite about once in a generation or that we have to earn it by some other means by adding caveats.
      We vote the SNP into power and they have the good grace to listen to what Scotland wants through an Indyref. Nor should we take too much notice of polls which have been weaponised against us.

      We wouldn’t be so close to independence now if we didn’t have Indy1. We don’t need to convince people to take independence seriously anymore because everyone takes it seriously now including Westminster.

    161. schrodingers cat says:

      Yeah. That was Frank Hadden’s philosophy in the 2007 Rugby World.

      this isnt a game of rugby, we are playing for keeps

    162. Liam says:

      Hello mr abassador, a couple of definitions for you: ambassador: ” a diplomatic official of the highest rank”, diplomat: “a person who can deal with others in a sensitive and tactful way”. Ooops oop FAIL. So he lost any credibility immediately.

      While not disagreeing – I just want to point out that that’s a (for the want of a better word) British definition of ‘ambassador’, not a Russian one. Maybe they see the job in a different light.

    163. geeo says:

      Polls are NEVER going to show over 50% indy support, that does not suit the narrative.

    164. Daisy Walker says:

      Last time out the choice was Change or No Change.

      Brexshit and Bad changes everything.

      The – can we, would we, could we – debate is a luxury whose sell by date has come and gone.

      Now we must.

      Before we lose our membership of the EU, before we lose our devolved powers, before we lose our democratic mandate.

      The First Minister is absolutely correct in waiting for the ink to dry on what the terms of Brexit will be.

      We would be remiss, if we wait for that date too.

      Our situation is simple – It’s Brexshit and Bad, or its YES NOW, for this is now a battle for survival.

      Our side, understandably given the media scrutiny it gets – has alway had an eye for the detail. Brexshit is too big a subject and the ground keeps shifting – but there is no good news about it!

      The other side, had no such scruples – a big simple lie on the side of a bus.

      Lets not get caught up in the fine details, lets keep it simple.

      Its Brexshit and Bad and the only sight of anything good coming from it is Yes Now x

    165. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Evening Times online 8th April…….
      Sunday Times Panelbase poll for Scottish Independence. 1037 people polled ,against 57% for43%.
      Evening Times own online poll…7288 people, 77% for 23% against.
      Can anyone please explain the discrepancy.”

      Yes: online newspaper polls are total bollocks.

    166. Cubby says:

      Surely by now everyone must know not to believe a word the British Nationalists say.

      They are proven liars. Full stop.

    167. Liz g says:

      Any notion of commissioning yer own poll Rev ?
      Or is it still too soon?

    168. Breeks says:


      schrodingers cat says:
      9 April, 2018 at 11:29 am
      breeks
      the only way for scotland to regain any eu status, efta/eea/eu whatever, is for us to win indyref2

      No. Wrong.

      Our Constitutionally Sovereign declared will, enacted by a clear and unequivocal 62% majority mandate, delivered a sovereign edict that the UK should stay in Europe. For Westminster to overrule the will of a sovereign people, [and only the Scots ARE Constitutionally Sovereign], then Brexit becomes an act of subjugation of one Nation’s Sovereign will by another. It will not stand.

      If we successfully petition the EUCJ to recognise Brexit as the thoroughly undemocratic, unconstitutional, unmandated act of wanton subjugation by one Nation upon another, then we can make the argument stick that Scotland has no responsibility or commitment to leave Europe under Brexit. Westminster’s Brexit has no jurisdiction or constitutional mandate on our side of the Border.

      Scotland’s constitutional right to remain in Europe is as sovereign as the rUK’s sovereign right to leave. Our capacity to stop them leaving is a futile as their capacity to make us leave.

      Whether it’s impracticable or not is irrelevant, but the will of England/rUK to leave EU does leave Scotland defaulting to Continuer State status responsible for UK membership commitments, but practically incapable of fulfilling them. Westminster would love people to accept itself as Continuer State and Scotland the Secessionist, but for a start, the Act of Union was defined as a Union of Equals, so there is no Continuer or Secessionist principle underpinning the United Kingdom, but secondly, in the context of the EU, the UK’s actions fit the very definition of Secessionist, and it very much is Scotland striving to Continue with such commitments it is capable of honouring.

      This renders both Articles 48 and 49 of the Lisbon Treaty inapplicable to Scotland. Scotland’s Citizens are EU subjects already, our economy is inextricably linked to and dependent upon EU Trade Agreements, and our Laws are married to EU Laws.

      Europe CANNOT arbitrarily expel Scottish Institutions and sweep away trading criteria we rely upon and treat Scotland as a non-member Nation wishing to join the EU. To do so would be illegal, and every industry or commercial activity disrupted by the EU’s expulsion, every Trade protection arbitrarily lost would have a legitimate claim for compensation and legal redress against the EU.

      The EU upon recognising Scotland as a sovereign entity which already lives under the EU umbrella would be OBLIGED to devise an alternative resolution to Scotland’s permanent EU membership, which neither Articles 48 or 49 of the Lisbon Treaty can adequately resolve. It might very well NOT be automatic membership, but you may be absolutely sure it would not be involuntary expulsion against our will.

      Provided the EUCJ can be persuaded to recognise Scottish Sovereignty, then Brexit ceased to be applicable to Scotland on 24th June 2016, the moment Scotland’s Sovereign citizens voted against it.

      We might want to win IndyRef as you rightly say, but we do not need to. As I said before, the democracy component is done. The box is ticked. The Constitutional rubicon is crossed. England chose one path, Scotland chose the other. If our sovereign will is respected, then we have vetoed Brexit to the fullest extent we are able, and that means we have stopped it applying to Scotland.

      The question put before the EUCJ need not even specifically mention Brexit. It need only examine the existential integrity of Scotland’s sovereignty and constition. Ask yourself whether it is credible for the EUCJ to expunge a millennium of Scottish History from the European history books, and rule that Scotland ceased to exist 300 years ago.

      That Courtroom is the locus where every argument Robert Peffers has ever articulated here on Wings needs to be on hand; the Declaration of Arbroath, the Northampton Edinburgh Agreement, the Claim of Right, the Chronology and legitimacy of Monarchy, the sacred standalone Scots Law which sat in the Netherlands basking in International respect, the 1954 McCormick case that said “the principle of unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle and has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law”, and even the AXA Case where the UK Supreme Court acknowledged it could not overturn the will of the sovereign people of Scotland. ALL of this needs brought to a climax in the EUCJ and used to discredit the faux bastard Union which has imprisoned and trapped the ethereal concept of Scottish Sovereignty. – A frustrating Constitutional conundrum which England could never ever defeat.

      If the European Court of Justice can be persuaded to recognise Scottish Sovereignty, and in truth, that is the only conceivable reality possible, then NOBODY can remove Scotland from the EU except the sovereign people of Scotland ourselves.

      Yes, it’s true, our status inside the EU will for a short time be a Constitutional conundrum without precedent which urgently needs to be resolved, but we must all trust that expediency and realpolitik, two great traits of the European Union’s success story, will find a pragmatic solution to suit everybody.

      Brexit is only inevitable if we lie down and let Westminster walk all over us.

    169. schrodingers cat says:

      the only conundrum is 55% voted no, 62% voted remain.

      that has nothing to do with the eu and everything to do with us.

      the eu will take the pragmatic approach and tell scotland to sort it out ourselves.

      the idea that the eu will come to scotlands rescue is for the birds. no, we are alone and it is for the people of scotland alone to solve this conundrum.

      but if you feel there is milage in this approach, feel free to go down that road, i’ll even chip in to your crowd fund

    170. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      9 April, 2018 at 11:53 am
      heed
      if its not before next Scots GE, its never going to happen.
      ———–
      I genuinely think indyref2 will be before the next Scots GE and would only revisit this issue if it wasnt.

      The other side of that Pete ignores is or was, the huge SNP vote turnout a year after losing indyref1. Well not a year, 8 months.

      He’s ignoring the low turn out or loss of SNP votes in 2017 but certainly should not. Maybe its different today, 3 or 4 short years of BBC Scotland led SNP Out attack propaganda, Cambridge Anal carry on, We said no indyref2 Colonel Ruth fury, could all be causing low SNP vote turn out.

      If I was the decider, losing indyref2 has to be an option.

      This whole, losing is not an option is not realistic. If indyref2 is held next summer and its still NO, at least SNP vote should increase to post 2014 levels.

      In politics, losing is always an option. Tories thought they were out in 2015. Putting it all off until YES polls are showing a clear YES win could still be NO.

      In the meantime, we have to keep SNP in government.

      As basic as possible, so what if polls show YES for Scotland, say in 4 lousy Brexit years time. Its not going to slow the full vote NO fury campaigning dumped on us again, from the crew in Pacific Quay in particular.

      To be fair, a lot of that lot must reaching retirement soon enough. Although wouldn’t put it past Donalda to have a holographic Jacky Bird.

    171. schrodingers cat says:

      Putting it all off until YES polls are showing a clear YES win could still be NO.

      this is true, but i suggest delaying it until wm finishes this brexit fiasco, at least until early next year (jan etc)

      i think the brexit issue is distorting the opinion polls uk wide. when canvasing in council and ge in the last couple of years, i found the same reaction on the doorstep as pete, folk didnt want to hear about indyref2, only brexit. that included even some of our members!!!

      if we launch indyref2 before this goat rodeo in wm is over, we could end up being blamed by the public for upsetting the apple cart.

      once over, we can launch indyref2 campaign, (feb 19) but remain tight lipped about the actual date, we didnt announce sept14 until late 2013.

    172. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat “the snp’s policy is

      we should hold indyref2 when we believe we will win

      petes position is consistent with this ie,

      No it isn’t, the SNP policy is no such thing. Some members like Pete Wishart have said that, that’s all, neither the leadership nor the SNP have said “we should hold indyref2 when we believe we will win”, nor does the SNP maniffesto.

    173. heedtracker says:

      i think the brexit issue is distorting the opinion polls uk wide. when canvasing in council and ge in the last couple of years, i found the same reaction on the doorstep as pete, folk didnt want to hear about indyref2, only brexit. that included even some of our members!!!

      In posh Perth SC?

      Posh Scotland is all like that.

      Brexit is going to be a fudge, then its going to be a tory triumph, maybe even at the same time. We all know its going to be a huge tory BBC led media triumph, for the next decade at least.

      All that most people will find from Brexit day is their hols in Europe might take a bit longer to organise, with no EU passport, longer waits at Calais etc.

      Especially posh Perth that you and Pete speak too?

      Otherwise, UK slowly but surely declines into the tory 1950’s dream of England, with a few annoying jocks to bait.

      Even more basic, We’ve a got a rampart BBC led neo fascist media propaganda machine, only really just getting going.

      That means two things SC, within the next few years run up to both UK and Scots GE, SNP are more or less finished. And poor ooooold Jeremy Corbyn will never get in to No.10.

      Its beeb decided.

      Spelling not a mistake this time.

    174. Liz g says:

      Well FWIW…
      I think we should wait until Westminster is as committed as possible to whatever Brexit they manage to arrange.
      Mainly because,should we announce our date, I suspect that they will either have another General Election, manipulate another EU referendum or both.
      This puts our campaign out of the media,so that the “more important” stuff can be discussed .
      And let’s the No campaign who (lets face it) have nothing to offer.
      Campaign for Scotland to -wait and see- we might not Brexit,and Scotland on its own will not get as good a deal/might not even get in at all.
      Or the old chestnut,just wait Labour will get in and fix it fur ye.
      Its what I would do!
      And might even be why Westminster won’t make a commitment on a deal?

    175. schrodingers cat says:

      umm
      posh auchtermuchty……… really?

    176. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      9 April, 2018 at 7:04 pm
      umm
      posh auchtermuchty……… really?

      No? Perth and the shire is pretty posh SC.

      So what are the good folks of Auchtermuchty saying?

      No indyref2, or maybe another one day, once Brexit’s all over and we can see how it turns out for us?

    177. schrodingers cat says:

      So what are the good folks of Auchtermuchty saying?

      it would appear they are saying the same thing in posh perth,

      “no interested in indyref2 , they want to know about whats gonna happen with brexit”

      the fact you try to paint this issue into some kind of class/wealth issue only shows how little you know perthshire.

      what you can be sure of heed is, tonight, all over perthshire, there are folk marvelling at just how small your dick is

    178. schrodingers cat says:

      No it isn’t, the SNP policy is no such thing. Some members like Pete Wishart have said that ,

      and mhairi black dads, when nicola says the same thing in her next bbc interview you can come back and apologise

    179. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      Mhairi Black was also reported in the Herald as saying the White Paper – Scotland’s Future – was a load of rubbish and she told everyone at the time it was a load of rubbish. She’s not exactly mainstream SNP policy.

      And Wishart is reduced to quoting Sillars – that’s “Vote RISE with your list vote” Sillars, “day of reckoning” for big business Jim Sillars, who also wants to delay it. He’s not SNP policy.

      Who else wants it delayed? Well, there’s McAskill, and then there’s Robin McAlpine. Neither of whom represent SNP policy!

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      On the subject of Mhairi Black, she was also quoted in the Holyrood mag “says the SNP needs “a kick up the backside” to make the party offer greater support to its MPs, so future candidates can “have a different experience” of entering politics to her own. ”

      I suspect she’s right by the way, but it hardly makes her part of the “inner circle”!

    181. heedtracker says:

      what you can be sure of heed is, tonight, all over perthshire, there are folk marvelling at just how small your dick is

      3 inches of steel. Marvell some more.

    182. BabsP says:

      Don’t know if anyone has spotted this. Richard Murphy, wise and socially responsible economist and campaigner for tax justice replies to a post on his blog:-

      For Scotland there remains the one and only escape, and that is our independence via our new referendum – and that cannot wait much longer. In fact, the sooner the better.

      Reply

      Richard Murphy says:

      April 18 2018 at 12:02 pm

      If I was Scottish I would be working so hard for this

      Dammit, I do my bit as it is

      We need to start now.



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