The wrong direction
Stand by, readers. We’re about to post some porn for stat nerds.
Yeah, you like that, don’t you? What’s a bit less sexy, though, is what the table above means for the “safety and security” of the UK, and the cost of your mortgage.
The UK government recently boiled down its case against independence to five points. Every one was either a flat-out lie or a meaningless platitude (“Best of both worlds” is not an argument), but the most misleading was point 4.
The claim rests on the assertion that the UK government pays a lower interest rate on its massive borrowing than it says an independent Scotland would. This is a fundamentally dubious claim – Ireland, with a supposedly bankrupt economy, actually pays a lower rate than the UK, and has done since May this year. Of the 28 EU member nations, the UK’s borrowing rate (or technically speaking, the yield on 10-year government bonds) is slap bang in the middle, in 15th place.
What’s more alarming, though, is the direction those rates are travelling in. The European Central Bank compiles data on movement in the rates since July 2013, and it makes startling reading.
Belgium: DOWN 37%
Germany: DOWN 29%
Ireland: DOWN 43%
Greece: DOWN 42%
Spain: DOWN 43%
France: DOWN 30%
Cyprus: n/c
Latvia: DOWN 26%
Luxembourg: DOWN 38%
Malta: DOWN 17%
Netherlands: DOWN 31%
Austria: DOWN 29%
Portugal: DOWN 46%
Slovenia: DOWN 52%
Slovakia: DOWN 34%
Bulgaria: DOWN 2%
Czech Rep: DOWN 33%
Denmark: DOWN 30%
Croatia: DOWN 24%
Lithuania: DOWN 18%
Hungary: DOWN 25%
Poland: DOWN 16%
Romania: DOWN 21%
Sweden: DOWN 26%
United Kingdom: UP 11%
Did you spot the odd one out, readers? The UK is the only country in the entire EU where the cost of government borrowing is going up, not down. Two of the nine members of the Bank of England’s Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) this month voted to increase domestic interest rates, ending three years of unanimous 9-0 votes to keep the Bank’s base rate at the historic record low of 0.5%.
A hike in interest rates is coming sooner rather than later. The MPC set a target in 2013 of unemployment falling below 7% before it would increase the base rate, but in January was said to have lowered that target to 6.5%, because falling unemployment was having a less beneficial impact on the economy than previously thought.
This is largely because the unemployment figures have been distorted (less tactful readers might say “fiddled”) by welfare reforms intimidating people off benefits and Job Seekers’ Allowance, forcing many to become “self-employed” on extremely low levels of income. But nevertheless, unemployment now stands at 6.6%, and the pressure on the Bank to raise the base rate is growing.
An independent Scotland in a currency union with the rest of the UK would of course suffer from any increase along with everyone else. The upward trajectory of UK borrowing costs actually serves mainly to increase the attractiveness of the various alternative currency options. But the notion that the “safety and security” of the Union provides a safe haven from mortgage and loan cost increases was a lie to start with, and is becoming more untrue with every passing month.
If they don’t have a CU with Scotland, sterling devalues, Band of England has no choice but to raise interest rates. And all because of dudes like Darling and Osborne, English mortgage costs start climbing, English house prices start falling and the rest is just like the great Major/Lamont ERM crash of 92.
link to en.wikipedia.org
The UK is broke. The only money they can borrow is payday loans at payday prices
And when does the cost of borrowing go up? when you are becoming a worry. when you are less likely to pay those debts back and when investors can see trouble ahead. Thats when.
I do hope we don’t tie ourselves into the CU for too long. It seems that the rUK will try and tie us in for as long as they can with long notice periods but we should retort that we will not wait forever for them to get their economy in order and a Yes is their notice that they need to do something other than put all their eggs in the City of London basket.
As iScotland’s economy diverges more and more from rUK’s over time the pressure to come out of the CU into at least a pegged currency can only grow and that needs to be acknowledged on the Scottish side of the negotiations. We need to offer some security and notice to rUK both to be reasonable and because causing sudden shocks to a near neighbour and trading partner is not in our interests either. But that doesn’t mean we should unduly tie the hands of the economy or a Finance Minister 10 years hence.
In something of a surprise my No voting wife told me she would be more likely to vote Yes if we were going to have an independent currency instead of the pound.
I told her it was an example of the perfect being the enemy of the good. Like that guy who was going to vote No because iScotland is not going to instantly become a socialist worker’s paradise. Even she goggled at that one.
Further to that, wouldn’t it be interesting if some of the parties after a Yes started to campaign on a manifesto to change the currency soonest? Stranger things have happened.
Similarly will we have any nakedly republican parties (other than the socialists that is)?
I wonder if some of the rise in gilt interests is driven by all the eurosceptic rhetoric and the rise of UKIP spooking some investors with the likely referendum in 2017. This ties in with our referendum as Scotland going makes the rUK slightly more eurosceptic on average.
Who will save the little Englanders from themselves?
How come if the Rev can find this information why can’t Alex Salmond’s team? Now this is the kind of info that AS needs to box Darling’s ears.
And we want a currency union why?
Seems to me better off witout one.
You have to wonder when somebody from YES is going to prick the UKOK bubble of conceit on prime time TV. Monday, Mr Salmond? The rUK is a wet sail anchor to a prosperous Scotland. We have to stop the pretence.
So, rev. Stuart, does this mean you’re coming round to the idea that a currency union isn’t the best option? It isn’t, and it never was.
@John
Except at the moment rUK is our biggest trading partner and causing a major economic shock (we provide 1/3 of UK export earnings) to our biggest market is not a sensible economic move.
I would hope and believe it is the SNP governments aim that over time other markets can be found and that the balance of our trade will change.
I watched this happen growing up in NZ after the shock of the UK entering the EEC and the trade barriers going up against our lamb, dairy, fruit and wool exports. New markets were found in the Middle East, Asia and the Soviet Union (we once bartered Ladas for butter).
I would also hope that over time the rUK would move away from reliance on the City for income and went back to earning money from actual imports so correcting the bad balance of trade figures.
Both these things would make ending the CU easier for both parties. Not that it being the right time for us but rUK hasn’t changed deter us. A Yes vote should be a wakeup call that they cannot rely on our exports, or our higher GDP per head, being in the sterling zone forever.
@FlimFlamMan
Unless and until rUK is no longer our biggest or a really major trading partner a CU will remain the best option for both parties. We should not rest on that situation but ignoring such economic realities is not sensible. Also your opinion is at variance with the Fiscal Commission Working Group of very eminent economists.
What are your economic credentials?
I think the fact that the UK is tad broke is a key factor in their desperation to keep us. Regardless of who gives who what, the reduction in GDP, the reduction in foreign currency earnings and the potential instability in the markets means that the UK simply cannot risk us leaving.
Pithy comments on message boards about us only being 10% of GDP are irrelevant in markets led by sentiment and which take fright over surprisingly small movements.
They may not like us but they can’t let us go either…although they may not be able to stop us at this stage of the game.
This is utter, smelly desperation, isn’t it?
The reason UK interest rates are expected to go up is because the economy is doing well – better than most of Europe.
I am really, really looking forward to September 19.
There’s quite a detailed analysis of related issues in this weekend’s Financial Times (FTMoney section, cover story – titled : ‘Are Bonds on the Brink?’). You can read the article by registering for 8 free articles online or you can download a podcast on the bond bull market at ft.com/moneyshow (hyperlink being : podcast.ft.com/index.php?sid=22). The press article concludes that ‘central banks appear in no hurry to raise [interest] rates…in the uk, they are unlikely to start going up until 2015 because wage growth has been much weaker than expected.’
@ Muscleguy
Who is the UK’s largest trading partner, and what currency do they use? It ain’t sterling. Countries are perfectly capable of trading with other countries using different currencies.
What are my credentials? Well, I didn’t wreck the global economy in 2008, unlike the mainstream, neo-classical and new-Keynesian economists who are promoting a CU.
Backed up by the FT..
link to ft.com
If the uk uses tools such as QE to buy up its existing debt then that serves to push the bond price up and reduce the yield making it a less attractive option to pension funds etc…
Anyone interested?
link to summerhall.co.uk
This is the best of both worlds that all those other countries don’t have 🙂
When you read the diversity of informed opinion on Wings ( a few nutters excluded)how could we NOT make it as an independent country.
In some ways it is unfortunate that so much (or does it?)depends on the Salmond and Darling second debate.
You have to watch this.
link to youtube.com
One thing must be born in mind when considering what Alex Salmond really wants. Now is he really wanting the Westminster to go for a currency union by claiming he wants one and that they are bluffing when they say they won’t have it. The alternative being he is really wants them to stick to opposing the currency union because he doesn’t want one?
Remember the second question on the referendum paper was a Salmond bluff that worked.
[…] « The wrong direction […]
Jim Murphy is in St Andrews on the corner of south street @ 10.00am ,
Cupar @ 11.30,
Leven @ 13.30
Kirkcaldy across from the cancer research shop on the high street 15.00
on 28/08/14
the wife got an email from Bitter together
go for it guys
Update he’s going to be in Sauchiehall street in Glasgow on the 28th in front of Waterstones book shop
see you there
Flim Flam man at 8.28
A currency union is the by far the most sensible option at this juncture.
Whether it remains so in the longer term is indeed debatable and we will be able to make decisions on that and other issues as an independent country.
The Better Together campaign has been duped and is trapped in a dishonest anti currency union stance which is undermining its whole campaign.
Stu – you present the economic arguments in ways the mainstream media rarely do – with wit, clarity, brevity and without condescension. Thank you.
We are reminded by the Yes campaign how the size of our country or economy has no bearing on how successful we can be independent but you present the raw data in a way that really informs.
BT’s 5 points, the cornerstones of their argument just serve to remind me of their intentions. None of the following will come to pass but at this time, if we vote Yes Westminster intend to refuse to share the pound with us (despite the ruinous effect this would have on ruk’s economy), they would erect a physical border to control movement, they would oppose (or certainly not support) our entry into the EU, NATO and pretty much every international club there is.
They would refuse us assistance if our citizens were travelling abroad got into a scrape and would certainly not want to cooperate on health matters like organ transplants or research into diseases.
And however short of electricity, gas or oil they were, almost the last place they would want to buy it off would be Scotland.
The question for me isn’t should we vote Yes, it’s how did we end up getting ruled by these Westminster plicks in the first place.
James Caithness
Do you no feel sorry for the ignorant wee boy! Win or lose we are better than that.
Enjoyed the live stream event tonight, good panel straight talking, encouraging all who attended and watched.
🙂
George Osborne himself makes it quite clear in his budget forecast that he has no chance of balancing the books until at least 2018/2019. And that depends on a whole range of implausibly optimistic targets on tax receipts, unemployment, GDP, exports, etc.
You can find the horrifying figures here … link to gov.uk
Don’t forget though, that Osborne hasn’t achieved a single target he set himself since getting into office in 2009. So the probability that he will hit a target still 5 years away are next to nil.
But we can be sure that by then, he will have added even more debt to the debt we already owe, exceeding £1.5 trillion.
Ask yourself this. When was the last time you went on holiday & came back with more money that you expected? Never. Exactly.
I know, you don’t really care about a mountain of debt because it’s meaningless in your own small world. It is, sort of.
Until you learn that just the interest payments on this debt is TWICE the amount spent on the entire DEFENCE budget. That’s interest only folks, not capital repayments.
Still feeling that you live in a wealthy & enjoying the love of sharing?
@FlimFlamMan
The UK’s current largest trading partner is not relevant to after Independence and is also not relevant to your point about wanting an independent currency.
Yes, lots of countries trade with others that use different currencies but there are costs involved in doing that. The reduction in such costs and making trade easier and more transparent was one of the major reasons why the Euro came into existence. It was why the US imposed a unified currency on the states. At one point iirc there were 15 different currencies being issued in the early US. Most are now collectors’ items.
Sometimes even closely related countries can’t use the same currency. For eg Australia and NZ, joined in a mini EU type arrangement. But with separate currencies. Occasionally an ignorant Aussie politician (usually a desperate Finance minister as recently) suggest a CU but the problem is the Aussie dollar fluctuates according to mineral prices while the NZ$ fluctuates according to international milk fat and meat prices by and large. The two economic cycles are also not in sync.
Both of course used to be in a CU with the UK and used the pound. NZ is in a CU with the Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau and Pitcairn. The latter despite Pitcairn being a British Crown Dependency.
With a Bank of England rate rise expected next year, many UK households with mortgages may face unaffordable repayment schedules. In a new report, Matthew Whittaker estimates that around 2.3 million households will be spending more than a third of their disposable income on mortgage repayments if interest rates move as expected. Of these, around 770,000 may be unable to cope, becoming ‘mortgage prisoners’.
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
The low-rate recovery is mixed news for George Osborne, the chancellor of the exchequer. Persistent low pay allows his Labour critics to point out that Britain’s recovery has done little to help workers. He can answer by pointing to the healthy employment figures. (The larger workforce also boosts tax receipts, helping Mr Osborne trim the deficit).
But grumpy savers, many of them Conservative voters, are a political problem: 50% of over-60s reckon they would be better off after an interest-rate rise while just 7% think they would be worse off, according to a recent poll. The magic elixir for coalition ministers would be a combination of growth, higher pay and rising interest rates. They are unlikely to get it.
link to economist.com
Lorraine at 8.36
Most of us,especially those of us who are doing the work around the communities all around the country are very much looking forward to 19th September.
Others are swallowing media and Better Together pish. It is a cardinal political error to swallow your own spin and the diminishing number of Better Together acolytes appear to have done so.
Never a good idea to confuse “the economy” with the conditions a society lives and works in. After all Bangladesh has had a strong “economy”.
Any economic revival in UK appears to being built on a lowering in real terms of wages and conditions.
Just a note about the Euro. It has gained about 20% on the pound and the dollar over the last immediate period. Some European economies may be in trouble. The Euro is not
James C – I watched it….as informed as the average No voter unfortunately, be worth a few more Yes votes for anybody else who sees it though.
O/T There is definitely a rogue element at work in Sainsbury’s in Hamilton. Virtually every week the Sunday Herald is either face down or, as today, has another paper on top of the pile. Today it was the, spit, Mail on Sunday. Chucked them onto a pile of Sunday Post’s. It may be a No worker or a member of the public but I was there about two hours later than normal on a Sunday morning and still I could find no trace of them initially. But sticker now up on back of car, hopefully many of you will have done the same.
The reason Westminster Parties came out against a currency union was not to upset the Scots. It is because a currency union places restrictions on both partners to comply with agreed borrowing rates etc.
Westminster doesn’t want a CU because it would be unable to meet the criteria.
My sense of this MU thing from the First Minister is that, at the moment the world is’nt looking all that closely at us,but when we achieve independance there will i think be the most scrutiny of a nation ever in the history of the world for our audacity and the peacefull nature with which we have done it,then let’s see what the world thinks of the wonderfull UK that’s going to deny a democratic people the hand of friendship in the spirit of a new commonwealth and european country it’s right to use the common currency we’ve always used
Because when they refuse ,who is going to blame us for doing what i think a lot of us feel is going to happen anyway,and PLAN…’WE WIN’…comes into effect
Debt? whit debt?
Then again, i don’t have any expertise in money matters, so maybe some of you guys who know more about this stuff can pitch in,i might be wide of the mark here,although i still feel it’s a stratedgy, cause the First Minister is a pretty smart guy,and a bit sharper than your average Westminster Guv Boy
@ Muscleguy
The UK’s largest trading partner is relevant to your statement that a CU is the best option because rUK will be Scotland’s largest trading partner. A CU doesn’t exist in the first case and isn’t needed in the second.
The costs of currency differences are dwarfed by the costs of lost currency sovereignty, especially for countries which have to run government deficits. Like the UK, and rUK after Scottish independence.
Some gobbledygook from the bookies
politicalbookie.wordpress.com/
Following William Hill’s admission last week that virtually all bets in Scotland in the referendum are going on YES but that some huge votes in Surrey are skewing the odds we have some nonsense from Ladbrokes.
Ladbrokes believe that the vast number of bets going on YES are patriotic and irrational flutters so they are leaving their odds the same, with NO hugely odds on favourite, because they are assured NO is going to win.
They have conceded they will take a huge caning if YES wins. They did so, on misinformation, in 2011
They seem to imagine however that lots of punters will put fivers and tenners on YES and then go down to the polls and vote NO.
Get on now. The odds on YES are ridiculously generous though they are staring to slip in again (from 5/1 to a general 9/2)
I think the question really is this.
Is England, Wales and Northern Ireland, Scotland’s biggest trading partner?
Once you figure that out, the rest should become clear
So is the rest of the UK, the biggest trading partner?
The reality is this, apart from Tesco/M&S/ASDA trucks going from England to Scotland with the Andrex toilet rolls. What exactly does Scotland ‘import’ from England?
There are low level low value components , but nothing of any great value.
Where as Scotland exports to England foodstuffs including whisky and oil, but exports far more to the rest of Europe and the rest of the world. Part of THAT export, bolsters the UK balance of payments as well as English port and airport stats.
Being in a currency union with England, is more to do with helping England out and safeguarding sterling.
But that’s my opinion
@ Clootie
Exactly.
rUK cannot afford a CU, because it wouldn’t be able to finance its deficits. It needs currency sovereignty.
Scotland probably/maybe wouldn’t run government deficits, but that can’t be guaranteed so a Scottish currency is best for Scotland.
And as if to add insult to injury on the current HMG economic model.
link to newsnetscotland.com
Kinda begs the question who is the greater financial risk, rUK or iScotland? Frankly rUK’s creditworthiness is lookin’ fairly suspect. 🙂
@clootie
Been thinking that for awhile. Both Scotland the rUK would have to conform to strict spending limits. rUK is incapable of sticking to this. If there is a CU, I doubt if it will be anything other than short lived.
Well here is a little inspiration.
link to youtube.com
We’ve got it all wrong. If we leave the security of the UK we are doomed to tragic destruction (and not just us). Here’s some serious analysis of iScotland’s future from the US:
link to harddawn.com
Lorraine says:
‘The reason UK interest rates are expected to go up is because the economy is doing well – better than most of Europe.’
Lets look at how well the economy is doing. My usual gauge is looking at the deficit. In the last 3 years it’s been pretty steady at £100 – £120bn annually. Unfortunately this last three months has not been great, so this current year is trending towards the upper limit of £120bn.
Osbourne claimed in 2010 that by 2014 the deficit would sit at £60bn annually.
The deficit is our annual net debt which we add to our rocketing national debt every year, currently north of £1.3 Trillion.
Why do i use the deficit ?
-Well it takes into account all the plus figures we have, trade/exports, income and other taxes and then deducts state spending from that. It’s a good overall indicator.
If, as Lorraine claims, the economy is doing well, then why isn’t this reflected in a deficit reduction ?
And what of trade ? The BBC tells us on 8/8/14 that:
‘UK trade deficit widens in June’
link to bbc.co.uk
Or tax revenues ?
‘Slowing UK Tax Revenues Enlarge Deficit In July’ says ‘Tax News’
link to tax-news.com
So the plus side of our balance sheet is being hammered, trade and tax revenues are not helping deficit reduction. Add new worries in Europe, our biggest export market, and it paints an even gloomier picture for a UK recovery.
The only thing left to do then is cut spending. If you can’t raise more then you have to cut more. Osbourne, the OBR and the IFS all claim that they will have the deficit into a surplus by 2018. Thats four years away.
With business recovery being a snails pace for the last four years, the only major way to hit his targets is to cut spending. To do that Osbourne needs to cut £110bn a year or more to eliminate the deficit. Just to give you an idea this is what he would have to cut:
All UK pensions £75bn
Income support £7bn
Housing Benefit £17bn
Jobseekers Allowance £7bn
source: link to static.guim.co.uk
That comes out roughly around the £105bn, just short of deficit targets. Even with stopping all those welfare payments now, immediately, it would not stop the UK adding to it’s growing debt.
Now Lorraine, do you want to show me your figures that disprove mine ?
There’s going to be some guy really disappointed because he typo’d and put “porn stats” into Google and came to this page. 😛
Muscle guy, you wrote that scotland is responsible for about 1/3 of the UK’s exports. Was wondering were that stat came from. Would be useful to use it with people.
@Dave McEwan Hill
I’m not a gambling man, sooo, say I put on £1000 tomorrow prior to the debate on a Yes win, at 5-1- how much do I get back on a Yes? £6500? Doh..
I spy a Wee Ginger Dug in the latest WOS Twitter feed image…
James Caithness says:24 August, 2014 at 8:12 pm:
“How come if the Rev can find this information why can’t Alex Salmond’s team? Now this is the kind of info that AS needs to box Darling’s ears.”
Are you forgetting Alex Salmond’s background, James? He is a renowned economist that has a World wide good reputation and was the UK’s premier oil Economist when the UK oil industry began. If you imagine he doesn’t know exactly what the score is you should perhaps think again. The man’s as sharp as the proverbial tack.
O/T
August the 25th is the date of the Battle of Teba where Sir James Douglas took King Robert the Bruces Heart on the crusade to reconquer Spain from the Moors.
There is a large stone monument in the centre of Teba that commemorates the story of the death of Douglas and the casket with Bruces heart.
A lot of Scots do not realise this is not just a story but actually happened and seems to be a well known piece of history in Spain.
To Robert Peffers
I know how clever AS is I watch him week in week out trouncing Lamont, Davidson and Rennie in Holyrood. I also watched the first debate where I believe his performance was deliberate, maybe to appeal to undecided voters, I don’t know.
I have also seen him make short work of politicians for years.
So I am hoping that there isn’t anymore tactics, he is what he is, he should go for Darling because he is by far and away too good for Darling.
BTW I am on your side.
VOTE YES.
tartanfever
I wonder how worried we should be about the rUK economy whether we are in a CU or not. The prospect of being tied to a failing state worries me (although not half as much as remaining in a state as it fails).
I obviously want the rUK to succeed and prosper as it will be the poorest who suffer most if it all goes Pete Tong down south aided and abetted by a petulant albeit seemingly impossible refusal of CU and subsequent assumption of the full debt.
What concerns me above all is this bullish, Crazy arrogance seeping from the media that Scotland will fail and come crawling back to the nest when it appears that this arrogance is so misplaced.
Whatever transpires following a Yes, my view is that exports need to be turned into a national mission as that may be the only way to insulate ourselves if rUK fails.
Going in the right direction – Spirit of Scotland;
link to youtube.com
MY perception of this, in the medium term, is that Osborne/Balls/Alexander know full well the sh** is about to hit the fan – and they intend to blame the entire thing on the Scots for having a referendum. If it’s a Yes vote, this is easy enough. If it’s a No, it’s tougher but still feasible politically.
As with many things, in my somewhat less than knowledgeable view, the currency union is largely there as a sop to those who would vote for independence but it’s a bit scary and they’ll need a crutch to lean on.
Ditto for NATO and, similarly but not quite as obvious, the EU. Because we could actually do without membership of any of these groups, but NATO in particular is a good one because it stops those who think we’d be suddenly defenceless dead in their tracks. No matter that wars are not fought in Europe, on any large scale, since everyone worked out trading was a sure fire way to dominate eventually without most people realising it was happening at all. NATO makes those who are nervous about Scotland being somehow vulnerable just a little less nervous.
A currency deal makes those nervous about what they’ll be spending a little less nervous. And you can bet your backside that, in common with everything else said NOW, a currency deal will only sit on the table until the result of the vote is known. Once it comes to negotiations you can forget every single word either side has said to date.
It all goes straight out of the nearest window.
All – I’ve posted in OT an update of last night and the adventures of the Wee Blue Book – anyone who took the photos can they post them in OT and tweet them to the WOS twitter a/c.
Thanks in anticipation. 🙂
Also met absolute loads of Yessers, especially young Yessers, which was good to see.
Oh and the founder of Africans for Indy as well – what a great night.
G. P. Walrus says:
I have never read such a load of crap, clearly someone with links of the Unionist persuasion. A rambling nutter.
Stakhanovite at 10.15
You’ll get £6000 back on a £1000 bet at 5/1- if they let you put the whole £1000 on at once. They have been limiting the size of YES bets
i think it is best to leave the uk house of cards, asap.
it’s obvious that we are being sucked dry.
under universal credit, new claimants will now have to wait 5wks or 6wks for money.
link to leftfootforward.org
benefits that according to ESC are 40% too low in any case.
Tam,
I think we should be very worried about the decline in the UK economy, so much so that my personal opinion is that we would be better off with no currency union and no debt.
I also feel sorry for the poor in the rest of the UK, but they haven’t helped themselves. For instance, the 2011 AV referendum was an opportunity to start the ball rolling on electoral change in the UK. It wasn’t perfect, but it would have allowed new voices into Parliament. On a 40% turnout, 68% voted against. The clear message is that the UK public don’t want to change anything about Parliament.
It’s very difficult to help people that won’t help themselves.
Interesting you brought up Scottish exports, you should have a listen to Prof. Murray Pittock in conversation with Derek Bateman. He talks about the positive figures in export being directly related to having an SNP government.
It’s available here:
link to batemanbroadcasting.com
(he’s on for the first 15 minutes)
We are thrilled the ‘Spirit of Independence’ and Chris are coming to Kirkcudbright on Wed 27th. the Rural Affairs minister Richard Lochhead will also be present.
Is there any way we can get a couple of hundred Wee Blue Books to give out at our event.
The Stewartry (which includes Kirkcudbright) imho is a backwater served by Border TV with lots of No’s and we need all the help we can get to convert these people with real info.
Quite willing to pay postage or to travel to obtain these WBB but hope some guid folk can help. Thanks
the CU is the answer to the question which was put to Fiscal Commission,
‘What is the best arrangment for Scotland AND the rUK?’
It is not necessarily the best option for Scotland but may well be useful in the short term.
Personally, as I have said before, I always thought it was another Salmond rope-passing exercise and they have eagerly grabbed the rope with both hands. As they keep saying no it easy post yes-vote to say, ‘ Ok that’s fine we will float our own initially pegged or not.’
That way we avoid the vitriole of being blamed for the pound collapsing. They will have grabbed the rope and hung themselves with it.
I have been aware for a long time of the real state of the UK economy and that figures are “massaged” and statements designed to try and make this appear better. They are a risk.
In any negotiations we need to be aware, if we are not already, that they need us, much more than we need them.
My question has always been, and still is, what will THEY offer us to cover OUR risk in a CU?
In any event, we cannot stop the decline of rUK, so if we enter a CU basically for trading purposes then it should be short term only, or we will go down the tube with them.
Like the tried and tested system Ireland used with a currency board pegged to sterling. We can then adjust parity to suit the trading agenda.
les Wilson & G. P. Walrus
Check the name of the site. Caught me out as well. 🙂
Marcia at 10.34
The fabulous Spirit of Independence is in Dunoon on Thursday along with the Margo Bus in support of a fabulous event at Dunoon’s Queen’s Hall.
This features Jim Sillars, Alex Neil, Carolyn Leckie, Angus MacNeil and chaired by Michael Russell to be followed by a FREE ceilidh featuring the Vatersay Boys, Reely Jiggered, the Cowal YES Junior Fiddlers and the terrific Abigail Pryde.
As this is the first day of the Cowal Games we expect to be over subscribed as we are limited to 700 of an audience so if anybody wants ticket (free) they will be available (pm tomorrow)in the YES shop in Dunoon, Michael Russell’s office and at the Queen’s Hall
salmond team must be getting feedback,if hes playing to tv audience DKs,i trust their judgement,MSM are going for a KO bbc debate
I am pretty certain Alex Salmond’s Plan B is a currency union.
It should also be noted that ALL of the comparably sized countries which occupy Scotland’s natural geo-political theatre (Northern, Western European EU member) are lower than the UK 10 Y bond rate.
Namely:
Belgium 1.61
Ireland 2.23
Luxembourg 1.26
Netherlands 1.26
Austria 1.47
Finland 1.36
Denmark 1.24
Sweden 1.6
UK 2.31
Although both Netherlands and Luxembourg might be considered to be pushing the ‘comparably sized’ definition, their removal does not change the salient point.
Small(ish) is beautiful.
Very embarrassed BT speakers at this debate. No wonder the UK finances are in a mess;
link to youtube.com
Marcia
At least she had the honesty of finally taking ownership of her error, rather than resorting to an inaudible mumble.
link to independent.co.uk
Notice how the independent don’t mention the AD interview in GQ, from the previous year. You know, when he was talking about the importance of using correct language when in public office.
@Marcia
I think the BT representative(not Dugdale) could be a soft no, someone give her a copy of the WBB 😀
Black Douglas
That BT rep in the video stated that she didn’t understand GDP as she was a lawyer and party candidate!
For god sake this is typical new Labour, have clueless backbench fodder to do the nodding head bit, little wonder the country is a basket case thanks to Labour
Marcia
I was maybe being a little kind in terming “it’s the most positive spin“, as taking ownership. 🙂
Marcia – 11.20
Not just very embarrassed – but well caught out by the ‘undecided’ audience in BT’s poor grasp of economic fact and its rationale – among other issues.
At one point the BT woman in the cream jacket (Kat?) praised Nicola for being “inspiring” and that she had indeed been “inspired” by her command of the subject to which Nicola suggested she ought then to come over to the Yes side.
I didn’t get the feeling that the audience were inspired by the No Thanks representatives.
@Dave McEwan Hill –
Aww, man, that sounds SUCH a good night. It’s what we all need right now – a good knees-up.
Talking to SSP buddies this afternoon, we were trying to remember the last time we’d had a ‘social’. Turns out that we haven’t. Ever. Not the current post-Sheridan crowd at any rate – nothing in the past three years at least.
We’d tentatively planned to do something before Sep 18th, but the time has gone.
Please take note though – anyone who has the vaguest sympathy or connection with SSP, be they in Ayrshire or not – after we’ve won, there will, at some point, be a ‘party’, and we’ll be needing some serious artists, film-makers and writers in attendance to record it for posterity.
Let wur hair down? You’ve no idea…seriously…
Marcia
Losing any dignity as well as the argument. Apart from that i’m speechless … and delighted .
An excellent new video from Scotgoespop explaining all you need to know about the pollong situation and it’s er . failings.
link to youtube.com
polling!
@G. P. Walrus says:24 August, 2014 at 9:52 pm:
“We’ve got it all wrong. If we leave the security of the UK we are doomed to tragic destruction (and not just us). Here’s some serious analysis of iScotland’s future from the US:
Journalist Derby Mack noted earlier this year that the socialist element could potentially turn this newborn nation into the next “Cuba or Afghanistan” and has urged all Americans to voice their concern over this crisis in England.”
That’s absolutely hilarious, G. P. Walrus, I laughed myself into sore ribs.
Does this, “Journalist”, not understand that the, “Newborn Nation”, of Scotland was first recognized as a different and established nation arond 54 years before the birth of Christ by the Romans who recorded it as Caledonia? The England the ignorant numptie refers to as if it were the UK was named as such by the Angles who only came to Britain after the Romans left in AD 410 and it was to be another 1,193 years before a Scottish king ascended to the throne of England and a further 104 years before the Scots signed a treaty of Union to form the United Kingdom.
That’s 464 years before England became England and 1,761 years before Scotland united with England as the United Kingdom that this numptie refers to as England.
I’m awa tae ma bed – before this good laugh’s effects wear aff.
Marcia,
thanks for posting that vid up.
Pure comedy gold. Clueless is a kind description.
They clearly hadn’t even read their own leaflet and I noticed that Ms Dugdale didn’t seem eager, despite being a professional politician, to elucidate.
Robert Peffers
I hope you’re not in bed yet,here’s something that’ll have you laughing till morning.
link to morningstaronline.co.uk
What does this data mean?
Apologies o/t
Yesterday, a couple of photos:
link to imgur.com
Today, cumbernauld then the Kelpies:
link to imgur.com
I noticed in my albums, some pictures from the Edinburgh Rally in 2013 that have never been made public. Nostalgic for some, new visitors can see what they missed.
link to imgur.com
Yesterday, we got a mention from the local Yes group for helping to swell the number of boots on the ground. Yes group had almost 50 volunteers in Airdrie town centre, while No Scotland had at the most generous count 12.
Today at Cumbernauld, WBB getting mentions by the panel, recommending everyone should read the book. Each pannelist had their head buried in the WBB when they weren’t speaking. At the end of discussions demand for the books was phenomenal. Good trip to the Kelpies later on, we took some epic photos.
@Robert Peffers
I love your posts, they are intelligent and often witty. Please though stop typing in bold, it makes you look like your shouting and really doesn’t add anything to the quality of your posts.
Please take this in the spirit it is intended and not as a personal insult. It’s just that you often make my eyes bleed.
Les, Project Fear is all about sharing the polling resources… or something like that. LOL
O/T
Encountered this referendum survey on mumsnet, being carried out for the Sunday Times. You can only take part if you’re a registered mumsnet member, as the questions being asked are allegedly to get the view of Scottish mothers.
The comments thread is probably more enlightening, as it shows that despite all the nonsense we’re being fed, especially about how the FM is or isn’t appealing to women, our Scottish mums know what really matters:
link to mumsnet.com
The (possibly) final (hope not) edition of Referendum TV for any night owls out there…
link to youtube.com
Heck! wrong link, Referendum TV – 24th August here…
link to youtube.com
Just saw on the BBC news, that Darling won the coin toss to go last on the closing statements of the debate, and Salmond won the flip to go first for the opening statements.
It would be funny if he asked the audience to play the drinking game – taking a slug each time Darling tries to deceive them by saying ‘best of both worlds’
More UKOK madness? No, not AS taking a drooking. Apparently David Torrence will suggest the “campaign has managed to turn Yes into a negative” (tomorrow’s Herlad Opinion, page 13).
That should be an interesting read. Oh and there’s something about oil, as well. 🙂
link to i.imgur.com
@Votadini Jeannie
Pleased to see the forum goers there pointing out flaws in the survey early on and the wrongness of certain elements. I get the feeling people at the top keep underestimating women in this (and politics in general, most likely). They’re more aware and active than ever. Didn’t just fall off the turnip cart.
Look, low interest rates are only good if you are bankrupt and have no assets and a big debt such as the uk. These low rates punish savers and hurt insurance companies and pensions (Scotland’s financial sector). We don’t have investment banks trading deposit money or a property bubble such as London. So low rates are BAD for us.
“THE UK Government is pressing ahead with its £3billion blueprint to extend Faslane nuclear submarine base – regardless of a yes vote”
______________
What is that all about, are they going to try and annex part of our country as some silver spoon muppet has already called for along with bombing our airports.
McLeish strongly rumoured to be a yes declarer tommorow (today). Impact?
@ BB10.02
Possibly one of Murphy’s interns looking to ease the tension after a long day filled with nasty scotch hecklers!
Breaking news, A cybernat Seagull whisperer commanded a seagull to pick Jim Murphy to shit on.
@Chic McGregor
I doubt it’ll happen after Blair McDougall’s spoiler on Twitter, the angry attacks against Henry there and elsewhere and Henry’s subsequent denial of turning to Yes.
@thedogphilosopher
LOL’d! I can imagine after being chucked off ASDA’s ground for campaigning without bothering to get permission, scurrying off like a rat from the sinking ship and being widely mocked for it there’ll be a few tense assistants. 😉
@Jim
Well they say like attracts like.
@ Marcia 11.20
Excellent snippet of live debate which for me more or less nutshells the whole campaign. Watch the discomfort of Dugdale and friend as they have to eat their own lies. Their facial expressions capture the truth of things!
This made me smile
link to youtube.com
big scary dugs lol
How dumb are BT? They actually can’t count.
(UK) Gov pensions are paid by Scottish tax payers. Without paying for Trident/redundant weapons/illegal wars and tax evasion through the City of London -Scotland Gov pensions could be higher. – £1.5Billion on Trident etc + £4Billion on tax foreign tax evasion = £5.5Billion
Scotland pays on average. £3Billion surplus to UK Exchequer and £4Billion debt repayments on monies Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend = £7Billion
Scotland could save £1.5Billion with a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink = £1,5Billion
Total £12Billion
In Scotland borrowing costs would be lower and Scotland would be in credit. There would be NO food banks.
The cheek of Westminster trying to renew Trident a month before the Referendum, is an insult to
the electorate.
Vote YES
Everyone is sick of BT lies. Can’t wait for the YES result. Off to the Bookies to put more on YES, for the food bank and Scotland’s future.
YES YES YES. The YES shops are inandated for merchandise.
The women in Motherwell had the right idea.
I must be really unusual……. The only thing wrong with Muscleguy and film flam mans debating is their reluctance to use their own names !!!!!!
We will continue to use the pound post independence, simply because it is CURRENTLY in our best interests to maintain no barriers between us and our trading partners.
Currency union????? WE will be in the driving seat as the only part of the British isles capable of paying off it’s fiscal debt s(hould we accept any).
We will enter a currency union only after proving it is in Scotland’s best interest.
I have doubts but like Alasdair Darling and Georgs Osborne I do not have a degree in economics.
Alex Salmond does
How many public NO’s will turn to YES in the polling booth.
Can’t believe Keiza and her mate’s ignorance. A lawyer doesn’t know basic economics and admits it. C’est la vie.
Ken, credit where credits due. She ended up agreeing that it was misleading, rather than trying to bullshit her way out of it which others would have done. If she wants to have a career in politics, perhaps she should review which party she wants to be involved with. A good clip and others upthread have mentioned there are other segments to come.
You wont get your tripple A rating.
Mind that one, discretely hushed up when the UK lost its Tripple A and Scotland on its own will have a Tripple A.
The ‘rigged’ debate. Never mind the ‘Debate’, all Alex needs to do is get the message out. More YES votes no argument.
Lose the rigged ‘Debate’ but win the argument.
Alex should remember many viewers have not heard the facts before. Just get them out.
@Robert Pfeffers
Glad it made you laugh. I thought it was priceless, particularly Blair Jenkins taking over as supreme ruler and attacking Norway.
I know that this may be a little off topic for this thread so apologies!
I’m having a “debate” with a “soft” No colleague who is swithering about the vote. He’s very much a jump-on-the-winning-horse sorta guy who sees the No campaign as being just as grassroots as yes (despite me pointing out the main backers’ Tory connections). I told him that I’d seen evidence that some No campaigners were being offered payment to knock doors, which he just didn’t believe. Can anyone on here point me in the right direction of some evidence for this. I’m sure I’ve seen this somewhere but can’t find it now.
Good luck tonight Alex!
I know it’s early in the day for a song, but this will lift your spirits rather than give you a headache.
link to youtube.com
“By the work of the women of Bonnny Dundee” or the £300 a day unelected troughers of Westminster…
O/T Maledication upon the naws – Absolutely devastating… one of the best things I’ve read in the entire campaign
link to stevenmcbrien.tumblr.com
@Proadge –
Yep. Does it for me too…
Sunny Aberdeen, why let one more UKOK fraudster spoil it with made up stuff from Libby the Ligger of the Graun
link to theguardian.com
“Salmond’s focus on the negatives of staying within the union reflects a shift in tone for the broader yes campaign as the referendum approaches. One senior official with Yes Scotland said: “We’ve tried every optimistic strategy, and the yes campaign has been a tsunami of trying to raise people’s spirits. It’s time to try with the negative consequences of a no vote, and level with the nos and don’t knows about the consequences of their actions.”
Sure they did Graun, but the real story is not Libby Carrell’s fantasy quotes, it’s how anyone can bear the stench of their endless lying and hypocrisy over everything about Scottish democracy. But that’s fantasy political journalism UKOK style.
@Proadge
Wow, doesn’t pull the punches. 🙂
Cracking link.
A blatant lie.
“Salmond’s optimistic predictions have also been shot down by the British Geological Survey (BGS), which on June 30 said there is less oil trapped in the shale of Scotland’s Midland Valley than previous estimates – estimates Salmond had relied on to argue that Scotland can afford independence from the UK.”
link to oilprice.com
@Airdrieonians
Try this:
link to thirdforcenews.org.uk
Current interest rates in UK are at the lowest rate since the BOE was formed in 1694.
0.5% interest is what the banks are paying you as the taxpayer for money they have on loan from you. The loans are secured on ‘financial assets’ that the banks themselves value and BOE takes their valuation at face value aand will loan up to 95% of self valuation.
The banks then lend to you and me at approx 5%. This is how the banks are repairing themselves. Using your money.
The recent change in pension industry where you no longer need to be tied to an annuity tells the story that low interest rates are killing the pension possibilities of everyone, both current and future pensioners. You cannot build up a pension pot when interest rates are sub 1%. You also cannot get a reasonable pension annuity return with 0.5% rates.
While you all think its great(not as great as the banks think it is) , in reality you are paying the price through future pension and savings.
Interest rates reflect risk, the 0.5% rate set by BOE does not reflect correctly the risk.
link to burdzeyeview.wordpress.com
Proadge
Is it too late to get Steven McBrien up against flipper tonight 🙂
Great stuff.
Welfare crisis not reported by the media…
link to ilegal.org.uk
Your stars for the day:
Some big scary story about independence will emerge and that will be the headline all day and used against the First Minister in tonight’s debate.
The audience will be loaded with noisy and rude anti Salmond people.
Darling will be hailed the victor by the experts and the snap polls immediatelafterwor
Damn tablet.
Missng words “immediately afterwards”.
The audience will be loaded with noisy and rude anti Salmond people.
The ruder the better.
Stuart – how about inviting Steve McBrien to write a guest article for Wings?
About tonight – Don’t look for a wildly different performance from the FM. I’d reckon he’ll keep the reasoned approach. I suspect he’ll have corrected his currency message, which didn’t come across well first time round, but other than that he’ll still want to appear a steady, safe pair of hands in contrast to Mr Pointy, shouty.
Worth bearing in mind as well that tomorrows headlines have already been written by our meeja. What matters is the message and selling the message in front of live audience at home. He just needs to hold the line.
I’d love to see him tear that ****** a new one as much as the next bod here, but getting the message out and holding the line is important at this stage. We’ve got passion and heart to spare on the doorstep and in the street. What would people rather see tonight, a statesman or a brawler handing out a well deserved cuffing?
@heedtracker
Picture them all sitting in their underwear. 😀
Ah’ll get ma coat.
@Macart
I largely agree. Hold the line and look like a stateman.
I think it will be about pushing a few simple messages at the target DKs and soft-Lab-voting-NOs. But the campaign will be won or lost on streets and doorsteps, not in studios. Studios have never featured significantly in the overall strategy, they are deep in enemy territory!
@G. P. Walrus
There’s one “prediction” will come true, but in the event of a No vote
2022: Mafia Makes Aberdeen the “New Amsterdam,” Infamous for Hashish, Sex Tourism
On Topic
The BTL comments on the FT are getting themselves worked up over the CU and how they might end up being lender of last resort. Totally out of mind of the difficulties of repaying debt in a foreign currency. They should ask Rupert or Tarquin about the difficulties they had with their place in the Dordogne and its euro mortgage.
We could take Sterling debt on as I expect a rUK Sterling to sink but that wont do anything for my fellow English’s purchasing power and Scottish exports
Darling is a failed has been and they know it. It’s why he got offered the job and why he took it, the last throw of the dice for the ultimate gamblers and chancers in a end of life Labour Party, in Scotland. So will we sit through more “come on can’t you take a joke” ” I thought you were bringing the nice Alex Salmond tonight” “I want you just for a moment to consider the great Alex Salmond might be wrong about something” – all great tub thumping Flpper debate slams but they tend not to stop democracies struggling to come to life.
Wonder what slams Flipper’s team of ferocious sneaks are cooking up for tonight?
I don’t know about the rest of you, but in the last week or so, I’ve had 3 friends on Facebook (all no’ers) who for some unknown reason, have erupted into life and started questioning anything I post on Facebook (media headlines, articles from here, etc). Literally, it’s like, ‘Whoa! Where the **** have you been for the last 2 years Better Together pals? The minute we hit parity in the polls, and we are 4 weeks out …NOW you want to debate!!’
To say the least, there have been some bad tempered growls on Facebook, and in one case, I started deleting one friends comments as a warning as it was just his opinion when I demanded facts. The bickering on Currency and oil have been unbelievable. Since then, we haven’t spoken (but seem to still be friends on Facebook).
Personally, I would rather just use Sterling than be in a Currency Union. I just seem to have this bad vibe that somewhere down the line, either Westminster will thrash the entire benefit system in a bid to pay out nothing to those dependent on benefits or we will just continually suffer to be hit with tax increases on everything for the rest of our days trying to massage a debt that is seriously out of control.
@ Macart, good old Barney Gumble, burp!
Phone better together…
link to youtube.com
@JLT
I can’t get my head around the idea that a CU is a bad thing, yet the current arrangement in the Union is the very self same thing that they reject should Scotland become independent.
Something else for stat freaks recently released with seemingly no-one taking any notice:
link to ons.gov.uk
This is the latest (2012) Annual UK Business Survey Regional Results.
Prior to this release it has been inclusive of all sectors, but this year the financial sector “has been removed due to ongoing volatility while a more detailed quality assessment is undertaken”.
The various tables and maps make very interesting reading, particularly the size of Scotland’s production sector and also the balance between our production and service sectors in comparison to other ‘regions’.
Murphy and Dugdale videos sum Labour up.
Grassroots campaign: Murphy’s haunners: Tom Greatrex MP, James Kelly MSP, Monica Lennon Cllr and Richard Tullet Cllr. Lord Tommy McAvoy must have been troughing at Westminster to pick up his £300 a day appearance money, or I am sure he would have been there to provide the wee interns with the complete career path…. My wife is from Blantyre but she didn’t recognize the 75yo minder. Will have to ask my mother-in-law. In this part of South Lanarkshire, Labour think they own the place and that they can do what they like. Good laugh seeing them get run off even if I disagree with the way retailers can deny democratic rights these days.
Dugdale: her face is a picture when the other woman makes the heinous error of showing honesty. She will need sent to Blair McDougall’s re-education camp. Moto: “always lie, always deny”. Dugdale biting her lip but shameless as ever.
@ kendomacaroonbar, well you see it’s like this, CU means Scotland having possibly very different tax and spend policy from England and England will have NO control over these different tax/spend policies but England will take all the risk, apparently.
Which is why England is going to “give” Scotland lots more tax and spend POWERS, if we DO vote No and continue to give England all our taxes and resources and take all the risks. England then gives back to Scotland what they decide Scotland requires.
It’s much safer and secure if England gives Scotland what powers and money they think is best for Scotland, spreading the load over big shoulders, punching stuff above our weights etc
Clear?
@Proadge thanks for sharing that. Very strong piece, needs to be shared more widely. Will get on that!
Like everyone else here, I was disappointed that the first debate turned into more of a Jeremy Kyle type ‘debate’. They even brought along their own pointy, shouty family/members in the audience to heckle.
So in Jeremy Kyle style I would like to ask the following;
1. Who has been f’in who behind their back?
2. How long has this been going on?
3. Will there be any lie detectors? (apart from Wings)
4. Who does the baby actually belong to?
5. Who do we watching, trust to bring up the baby properly?
heedtracker
Ooh! Don’t be so convincing I was going to vote YES. 🙂
‘Geza break Dugdale’ was not going into the details of the better together figures to help her pal was she.
She knows, like us all here, the info is manufactured to hide the truth from the uninformed potential voter.
Hoisted by their own petard right enough, how embarrassing for them both.
Just had a BT woman put more propagamda through my letterbox even though I told her yesterday not to put her rubbish in here.
She told me this booklet was a balanced view of both sides the pros and cons of independence.
It was a blue leaflet but it was all BT.
She got really agitated when I gave it back and told her no more.
Her reply thats more for everybody else.
Re tonights debate.
Lesley Riddoch has written about tonight’s debate in The Hootsman but a much punchier prediction is made on her podcast.
She thinks the FM will do much better. The currency argument is a busted flush in many ways because it really hasn’t reflected in the polls with Yes gaining momentum, and now 44% of those polled think that Westminster are bluffing compared to 40% that don’t. People are bored with that argument and that could backfire on Darling.
Lesley also thinks the poll gains to Yes are starting to have an effect on the media in Scotland, she’s reading more positive stories in The Sun for example.
Interestingly she heard that the FM was so busy in the days running up to the previous debate and didn’t allow proper preparation time and she doesn’t see that happening again.
She predicts a much better performance from the FM and a significant ‘win’ for Yes.
You can hear it here: (about 30mins, towards the end)
link to rqs.libsyn.com
John 10.51
About the Stewartry. I was in Dalbeattie on Saturday, and No Thanks had a stall out. From their age/clothes profile, I reckon they were from the local Conservative Party.
At Kippford, which, for those of you who don’t know it, is one of the loveliest villages in Scotland, on the Urr estuary on the Solway. The Butcher’s Apron was flying from the sole flagstaff outside the busy community centre. Mind you, houses are so expensive in Kippford, I don’t think there are many Scots living there at all.
@galamcennalath
‘Enemy Territory’
Couldn’t have put it any better and couldn’t agree more. The object will be to ignore what’s being thrown at you to a greater degree and sell the product, because they will throw everything but the kitchen sink at the FM to make him slip or fall. He just needs to stand up and hold. His instinct just like ours, would be to hand out that cuffing. He must not do this. Leave that to us online and in the street.
I want to see the leader of a nation on telly tonight.
Macart,
I agree regarding the debate tonight, I fully expect to see or hear nothing new.
IMHO, the whole concept is just a waste of time, and with Glenn Campbell (who famously tore up an SNP manifesto live on the BBC) chairing the event, we know the pro union script is already written, regardless of what Alex does. The so-called media. will already have written their headlines of ‘last gasp failure by Salmond’ etc…
Meanwhile, in the real world, the YES campaign is still making progress, despite the weight of the blatantly biased BBC, London run and controlled ‘news’ papers, blatantly biased SKY and Channel 4 news, plus three London political parties and the entire UK Government siding against independence and democracy for Scotland.
The debate tonight will be a proverbial damp squib.
N.B watch out for lots of unusual and ‘new’ posters on here, in the aftermath trying to seed and spread dissent amongst YES supporters. Also a fair few ‘concern’ trolls’, if the last debate is anything to go by. Comments along the lines of ‘I’ve just been out canvassing for a YES vote, and like others hoped Salmond would perform well tonight – but I think he was wasted the chance – maybe we yessers need to rethink our strategy – maybe Nicola should takeover’..etc.. and so on.
Hopefully people on here won’t fall for it, like many appeared to do last time.
Just had a wee look on the Parliament website at Members register of interests,and looked at Gordon Brown’s, Alistair Darling’s. Both don’t claim to have accommodation in London, not surprising for Brown.
But Here is what found, and bear in mind this is up to the 28th July the one before is to the 14th July. .BTW not bad work if you can get it, and it’s clear why Gordon Brown is never in Parlaiment.
———————
BROWN, Rt Hon Gordon (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath)
2.
Remunerated employment, office, profession etc
Payments as Distinguished Global Leader in Residence at New York University: Campuses in New York, Abu Dhabi and Florence. Hours: ongoing commitment. Address: 70 Washington Square South, New York, NY 10012:
Payment of £123,846.68 for travel, staff and research fund. (Registered 25 October 2013) Accommodation paid for me and my staff in Shanghai; value £1,092.60. (Registered 25 October 2013)
Accommodation paid for me and my staff in New York; value £1,313.65 (Registered 23 April 2014) Flights, transport and accommodation paid for me and my staff in Bonn; value £2,576.41. (Registered 11 July 2014)
I am not receiving any money from this role personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payments as Chairman of the World Economic Forum Policy Coordination Group. Address: Route de la Capite 91-93, 1223 Cologny/Geneva:
Payment for staff and research of £42,439.06, as Chairman of the World Economic Forum Policy Coordination Group. (Registered 25 October 2013) Airfare, transport and accommodation in Dailian, China, also paid for me and my staff; £12,531.66. (Registered 25 October 2013)
Payment for staff and research of £41,393.47 as Chairman of the World Economic Forum Policy Coordination Group. (Registered 9 January 2014) Airfare and accommodation in Davos, Switzerland, also paid for me and my staff; £9,104.68. (Registered 18 February 2014)
Payment for staff and research of £41,180.73 as Chairman of the World Economic Forum Policy Coordination Group. (Registered 23 April 2014) Airfare and accommodation in Abuja, Nigeria also paid for me and my staff; £30,226.25. (Registered 11 June 2014)
Payment for staff and research of £40,650.41 as Chairman of the World Economic Forum Policy Coordination Group. (Registered 11 July 2014) I am not receiving any money from this role personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Delivery advance of £22,500 from Simon and Schuster UK Ltd, for book to be published in June 2014. Address: 222 Grays Inn Road, London WC1X 8HB. Hours: impossible to quantify. (Registered 11 June 2014) Publication advance of £45,000 from Simon and Schuster UK Ltd. Address: 222 Grays Inn Road, London WC1X 8HB. Hours: impossible to quantify. (Registered 11 July 2014)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
United Nations Special Envoy for Global Education. Address: UN Headquarters, New York, NY 10017. Ongoing commitment. (Registered 18 July 2012):
Flight costs paid for me and my staff: value £2,653.19 by Econet Wireless International (Pty) Ltd, 3 Eaton Avenue, Johannesburg, 2191, South Africa, for meetings with Nigerian President Goodluck Jonathan in Nigeria. (Registered 25 October 2013)
Flight costs and transport paid for me and my staff, value £16,805, by Thisday Media Group & Arise TV Networks, 35 Creek Road, Apapa, Lagos, Nigeria for meetings with Nigerian President in Paris. (Registered 11 June 2014)
Accommodation paid for me and my staff in Abu Dhabi; value £835.63. (Registered
22 July 2014)
41I am not receiving any money from this role personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Flights and accommodation paid for me and my staff; value £17,526.40 to attend the World Innovation Summit for Education (WISE) 2013, Doha. Address: Qatar Foundation, PO Box 5825, Doha, Qatar. Hours: 1.5 hrs. (Registered 14 November 2013) I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payment of £48,803.25 for speech to AlphaMetrix in Monte-Carlo, Monaco. Address: AlphaMetrix LLC, 515 Madison Avenue, Suite 14A, New York, NY 10022. Hours: 3 hrs. Flights, transport and accommodation also paid for me and my staff; value £12,216.86. (Registered 25 October 2013)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payment of £28,975.01 for speech to American Express Global Client Group in New York, USA. Address: Global Client Group, American Express, 4315 S 2700 E, MC: 02-01-70, Salt Lake City, UT 84121. Hours: 2 hrs. Flights and transport also paid for me and my staff; value £6,190.51. (Registered 25 October 2013)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payment of £48,737.82 for speech to HSM Americas Inc in New York, USA. Address: 501 Madison Avenue, 10th Floor/Suite 1003, New York, NY 100022 USA. Hours: 2 hrs. Flights, transport and accommodation also paid for me and my staff; value £22,019.78. (Registered 25 October 2013)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payment of £64,965 for speech to COPARMEX in Acapulco, Mexico. Address: COPARMEX, Plaza del Marques de Salamanca 2, Madrid 28006. Hours: 1 hr. Flights, transport and accommodation also paid for me and my staff; value £19,486.83. (Registered 14 November 2013)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Flights and accommodation paid for me and my staff; value £14,242.49, to attend the 21st Century Council Meeting in Beijing, China. Address: Berggruen Institute on Governance, 100 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 1280, Santa Monica, CA 90401. Hours: 2 hrs. (Registered 14 November 2013)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payment of £48,554.37 for speech to CME Group in Naples, Florida, USA. Address: CME Group, 20 South Wacker Drive, Chicago, IL 60606. Hours: 1.5 hrs. Flights, transport and accommodation also paid for me and my staff; value £26,653.85. (Registered 9 January 2014) I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payment of £47,087.84 for speech to The Richmond Forum in Richmond, Virginia, USA. Address: 6968 Forest Hill Avenue, Richmond, VA 23225. Hours: 3.5 hrs. Flights, transport and accommodation also paid for me and my staff; value £22,237.79. (Registered 23 April 2014)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payment of £45,039.06 for speech to Connexall in Ponta Delagado, S. Miguel, Portugal 9560- 260. Address: 5540 Central Avenue, Suite 220, Boulder, CO 80301, USA. Hours: 2 hrs.
42
7. 9.
11.
Flights, transport and accommodation also paid for me and my staff; value £7,298.86.
(Registered 23 April 2014)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Flights and accommodation paid for me and my staff, value £8,820.87 to attend Education Conference in Oslo, Norway. Address: Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 7 Juni-plassen, Victoria Terrasse, PB 8114 Dep. N-0032 Oslo, Norway. Hours: 7 hrs. (Registered 11 June 2014) I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payment of £46,155.72 for speech to The Association for Advanced Life Underwriting in Washington D.C., USA. Address: 11921 Freedom Drive, Suite 1100, Reston, VA 20190, USA. Hours: 1.45 hrs. Flights, transport and accommodation also paid for me and my staff; value £24,555.14. (Registered 11 June 2014)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Payment of £46,512.74 for speech to The American University in Dubai, UAE. Address: The American University, Sh. Zayed Road, PO Box 28282 Dubai, UAE. Hours: 5 hrs. Flights, transport and accommodation also paid for me and my staff; value £32,256.46. (Registered 11 June 2014)
I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Flights and transport paid for me and my staff, value £2,426, to speak at the International Trade Union Confederation World Congress 2014 in Berlin. Address: Head Office, 1210 Brussels, Germany. Hours: 1 hr. (Registered 11 July 2014) I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Accommodation and transport paid for me and my staff, value £1,403.90, to speak at the Global Partnership for Education Replenishment Conference in Brussels. Address: 1818 H Street, NW, P 6-600 Washington DC 20433. Hours: 1.5hrs. (Registered 11 July 2014) I am not receiving any money from this engagement personally. It is being held by the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown to support my ongoing involvement in public life.
Overseas benefits and gifts
See also my entries under Category 2.
Shareholdings
(a) Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown Ltd; company set up to provide administrative support for Mr and Mrs Brown in their ongoing activities.
Miscellaneous
Co-convenor of the Global Campaign for Education high level panel. Unpaid role: research and back-up support provided via members of the GCE Coalition.
DARLING, Rt Hon Alistair (Edinburgh South West)
2.
Remunerated employment, office, profession etc
Contract with Atlantic Books, Ormond House, 26/27 Boswell Street, London WC1N 3JW for publication of book. (Registered 25 March 2011)
Payment of £2,255.78 in respect of royalties received (net of commission) from sales of my book, under contract with Atlantic Books, previously registered. Address of payer: Capell and Land Ltd, 29 Wardour Street, London W1D 6PS. Hours: nil. (Registered 14 February 2014)
15 May 2014, I received a further payment of £597.77 in respect of royalties payable under my contract with Atlantic Books, previously registered. Time spent: nil. Address of payer: Capell and Land Ltd, 29 Wardour Street, London, W1D 6PS. (Registered 23 May 2014)
All fees listed below between 1 May 2011 and 28 May 2013 include VAT. (Registered 24 June 2013) Fees for speeches paid by JLA Associates, 80 Great Portland Street, London W1W 7NW:
1 July 2013, I received a fee of £8,500 for addressing a conference organised by Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, 2 King Edward Street, London EC1A 1HQ. Hours: approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 12 July 2013) 1 July 2013, I received a fee of £12,750 for speaking at a conference organised by Incisive Financial Publishing Ltd in Monaco. Travelling costs of £1,234 and overnight accommodation costing £278 were met by Incisive Financial Publishing Ltd, Haymarket House, 28/29 Haymarket, London SW1Y 4RX. Hours: approx. 26 hrs including travelling and overnight accommodation. (Registered 12 July 2013)
12 July 2013, I received a payment of £8,500 for speaking at an event in London, organised by Jefferies Bache Ltd, Vintners Place, 68 Upper Thames Street, London EC4V 3BJ. Hours: approx. 3 hrs. (Registered 19 July 2013) 20 September 2013, I received a fee of £7,650 in respect of speaking at an event in London, organised by Ashurst LLP, Broadwalk House, 5 Appold Street, London EC2A 2HA. Hours: approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 26 September 2013)
24 October 2013, I received a payment of £10,200 for speaking at an event organised by Menzies LLP, Heathrow Business Centre, 65 High Street, Egham TW20 9 EY. Hours: approx. 5 hrs, including travelling. (Registered 31 October 2013) 18 November 2013, I received a fee of £12,750 for speaking at the London Market Conference, organised by Exchanging plc, the Walbrook Building, 25 Walbrook, London EC4N 8AQ. Hours: approx. 3 hrs. (Registered 29 November 2013)
22 November 2013, I received a fee of £10,200 for speaking at an event in Edinburgh, organised by the Institute & Faculty of Actuaries, Staple Inn Hall, High Holborn, London WC1V 7QJ. Hours: approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 29 November 2013) 22 November 2013, I received a fee of £10,200 for speaking at an event in London, organised by UBS, 100 Liverpool Street, London, EC2M 2RH. Hours: approx. 3 hrs. (Registered 29 November 2013)
7 January 2014, I received a payment of £12,750 in respect of speaking at an event organised by Blackstone Group International Partners LLP, 40 Berkeley Square, London W1J 5AL. Hours: approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 7 January 2014)
7428 March 2014, I received a fee of £9,840 in respect of speaking at a conference
organised by Insight Investment Management Ltd, 160 Queen Victoria Street,
London EC4V 4LA. Hours: approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 11 April 2014)
6.
11.
13 March 2014, I received a fee of £11,475 for speaking at the annual meeting of Dunedin Capital Partners, Saltire Court, 20 Castle Terrace, Edinburgh EH1 2EN. Time spent approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 27 March 2014) 13 March 2014, I received a fee of £7,650 for speaking at an event organised by FIX Protocol Ltd, 5th floor, 6 St Andrew Street, London EC4A 3AE. Time spent approx. 2 hrs. (Registered 27 March 2014)
12 May 2014 I received a payment of £12,750 in respect of speaking at an event organised by Asset Based Finance Association, 3rd Floor, 20 Hill Rise, Richmond, Surrey, TW10 6VA. Hours: approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 23 May 2014) 27 May 2014 I received a fee of £10,200 in respect of speaking at an event organised by the Association of Corporate Treasurers, 51 Moorgate, London EC2R 6BH. Hours: approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 6 June 2014)
Payments from Guardian Newspapers, Kings Place, 90 York Way, London N1 9GO, for writing articles for the Guardian newspaper:
17 October 2013, I received a payment of £285. Hours: approx 2 hrs. (Registered 31 October 2013) 5 December 2013, I received a payment of £285. Hours: approx 1 hr. (Registered 23 December 2013)
2 September 2013, I received a payment of £750 from Associated Newspapers Ltd in respect of an article published in the Mail on Sunday. Address of payer: Northcliffe House, 2 Derry Street, London W8 5TT. Hours: approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 26 September 2013)
23 September 2013, I received a payment of £750 in respect of an article in The Times newspaper. Address of payer: News UK and Ireland Ltd, PO Box 151, Peterborough, PE7 8YT. Hours: approx. 4 hrs. (Registered 26 September 2013)
Overseas visits
(Registered 22 April 2014)
Miscellaneous
Unremunerated Director and Chairman of BetterTogether 2012 Ltd (from 1 June 2012).
(Registered 21 June 2012)
Name of donor: International Monetary Fund
Address of donor: Washington DC
Amount of donation: flights valued at £6,219 and accommodation valued at £1,093.42
Destination of visit: Washington DC
Date of visit: 7 to 9 April 2014
Purpose of visit: to attend meeting of the IMF on 8 April 2014
O/T Sorry to go off topic but has anyone seen the Paul Hutcheon of the Sunday Herald’s blog trying to demean the first ministers integrity.
I replied in his comments section as follows:-
Paul considering you are employed by the supposed only Scottish Title which allegedly supports the Yes campaign.
Your position as :- Investigations Editor !!!!
Has been blown apart by your ill thought out rant headlined, TTIP’s staunch supporter – Alex Salmond.
Your two quotes are irrelevant to the NHS Scotland position, as it is currently a Scottish Government controlled monopoly which places it outside the TTIP agreement.
So indeed the agreement would be good news for the rest of the Scottish Trading Economy with regard to expanding market share etc.
In the event of a NO vote do you seriously think that the American Pharma Companies would not claim that by Scotland staying in the UK that we are really just a region of the UK and thus implicate the privatisation of the Scottish NHS services by enforcing their free trade agreement which is already set up down in England’s NHS.
Macart
‘I want to see the leader of a nation on telly tonight.’
Couldn’t have put it better myself.
Why don’t those of you on twitter start the questions about tonight’s debate ?
Where is the audience coming from ?
Who has chosen the audience ?
Is there a polling company involved ?
using a relevant hashtag why not start to put the questions out there ?
@RL
Again couldn’t agree more. The telly debates are nothing more than window dressing for BT and always have been. The real debates have been held in town halls, streets, doorsteps, fairgrounds etc. One to one where true engagement really takes place.
For those with a short memory Glenn Campbell was almost in tears and could barely disguise his disappointment when he had to report the SNP landslide win in 2011.
We’ll see just how impartial he manages to be tonight but the fact of the matter is a couple of average performances from Salmond against Iain Gray in the 2011 debates hardly stopped that landslide.
For that matter the ludicrous and blatantly false triumphalism from the No campaign and press after first debate did not stop the polls narrowing nor has it stopped the Yes campaign’s gathering momentum.
@Pin
Thanks for that.
I’m sure that I saw something from the Labour party online offering cash for “expenses” or the like.
Maybe I imagined it! It certainly isn’t easily retrieved by Google. Maybe it’s been expunged.
@ call me dave, look it couldn’t be any simpler! England can’t have a Currency Union with Scotland because England will be taking all the risk if Scotland controls it’s own tax and spend, apparently.
So that is why England is telling you to vote NO! Then England will “give” Scotland lots more POWeRs consoling Scottish tax and spend and then England will be delighted to take all the risk.
Clear? There’s not a giant BetterTogether con going down here at all, honestly.
Look at 79′, vote no for more powers but by 89′ fcuk all, 99′ oopsee!
consoling should be controlling, oops
@Muscleguy says:24 August, 2014 at 8:02 pm:
“I do hope we don’t tie ourselves into the CU for too long. It seems that the rUK will try and tie us in for as long as they can with long notice periods but we should retort that we will not wait forever for them to get their economy in order.
Correct but consider that the most likely circumstance, post independence, will be a hardening of the Scottish currency against the Kingdom of England Currency, (remember that legally the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of Kingdoms) and as there are only two kingdoms an rUK is not possible.
Now a hardening currency cannot happen in a currency union and that is why Westminster will accept it. However, there is the other legal point, The BofE is neither the property of the Kingdom of England nor the Kingdom of Scotland. It is a shared asset. This is the basis for NOT sharing the United Kingdom’s debts if we do not share the assets, or put another way, if Westminster attempts to claim to still be a United Kingdom, when not actually united to any other kingdom, it is that rUK that is in default and The Kingdom of Scotland has no liability for that false, “Continuity State”.
The legal definition of how a bipartite union of two kingdoms disuniting is, “The Status Quo Ante”. (Legal definition = “The situation as it existed before”). That situation is clearly stated in The Treaty of Union, 1706/7.
So the real legal position is that any, and every, agreement reached in the Treaty is undone and there is no mention in the treaty of other than the two Kingdoms being equally sovereign. It also means the same applies to each and every treaty and agreement reached by the two kingdoms while still united. So whatever restrictions apply to the Kingdom of Scotland must also apply to the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of England of 1706/7 had lang syne annexed both Wales & Ireland so any thing thereafter is negated including the adding to the title, “Great Britain”, of, “& Northern Ireland”.
Westminster really has never had sovereignty over Scotland because Scotland was independent of Westminster when The English Kingdom had it’s, “Glorious Revolution”, and deposed the King of England but obviously could not depose the monarchy of the then still independent Kingdom of Scotland. This is why Scotland still has her independent legal system. Those who think that as this is ancient history needs think again for the two legal systems do indeed date from those days. If they claim they do not then we only need point out that the Treaty of Union was over 300 years ago, (and there is a nice, on-legal term, to indicate what they can do about it. It begins, “Go and …”.
@HandandShrimp says:24 August, 2014 at 8:34 pm:
“I think the fact that the UK is tad broke is a key factor in their desperation to keep us. Regardless of who gives who what, the reduction in GDP, the reduction in foreign currency earnings and the potential instability in the markets means that the UK simply cannot risk us leaving.”
Bang! On the Nail head, HandandShrimp.
@
FlimFlamMan says:
24 August, 2014 at 9:35 pm:
“The UK’s largest trading partner is relevant to your statement that a CU is the best option because rUK will be Scotland’s largest trading partner. A CU doesn’t exist in the first case and isn’t needed in the second.”
Why are you accepting the Westminster deflections so completely? Answer me these questions : –
On what legal system do you believe the term, “United Kingdom”, means other than a bipartite union of KINGDOMS?
Why, on the Treaty of Union, are ther only two signatory, KINGDOMS?
What was the composition of, “The Kingdom Of England”, in 1706/7?
As “The Kingdom Of England”,annexed Wales in the 1284 Statute of Rhuddlan and Ireland by the 1542, “Crown of Ireland Act”, was not the 1706/7 Kingdom of England a three country Kingdom?
When the Treaty of Union disunites, and thus ends, what is the correct, Status Quo Ante”?
How can there be a legal, “rUnited Kingdom”, when the three country Kingdom of England is united to no other kingdoms and the Kingdom of Scotland was an equally sovereign kingdom in the United Kingdom?
What is the correct legal position of of the two equally sovereign Kingdoms after they disunite?
@James Caithness says:24 August, 2014 at 10:27 pm:
“I know how clever AS is I watch him week in week out trouncing Lamont, Davidson and Rennie in Holyrood. I also watched the first debate where I believe his performance was deliberate, maybe to appeal to undecided voters, I don’t know.
I don’t know either, James, but if I’ve learned anything about Alex Salmond it is this – He never does anything, at any time, without a bloody good reason and I’m not easy to fool but often do not see what Alex is up to until later events show what it is.
Eck is normally at least three jumps ahead of everyone else. Let’s wait and see what it is this time. Here’s an example – can you tell whether Ecks is angling for a currency union or to get the Westminster parties to come out in unison against it?
@Proadge
Thank you. This guy sums up my rage.
I remember talking to people in the 2011 election where if I remember correctly Gordon (I turned boom into bust) Brown said he would halve the UK debt in 4 years. I put this in context as £1.5 trillion debt is a big number and people do not know how many zero’s are after the 1.5. So I said if I wanted to halve a £15000 debt over 4 years that is £7500 divided by 48 months = £156.25 without interest so capital only. However if you are on a low fixed income and become unemployed how do you pay the monthly £156.25, if you have no income. You default on the debt. Westminster is bankrupt and will never pay off the indebtedness of the UK. The sooner Scotland leaves the sinking ship that is the SS UK the better for all of us living in Scotland. I do not envy people living in rUK. A succession of profligate Westminster governments have created this problem.
@Peter Macbeastie says:24 August, 2014 at 10:40 pm:
“Thecurrency union is largely there as a sop to those who would vote for independence but it’s a bit scary and they’ll need a crutch to lean on. Ditto for NATO and, similarly but not quite as obvious, the EU.”
Which all depends upon the legel premise that the Westminster claims of continuity as the UK are factual. The only fact is that there is not a single shred of evidence that their claims are in any way correct.
Care to tell us, Peter, on what grounds you base your belief that they are legally correct?
Read the Treaty of Union, (Articles Of Union I & III), and look at the signatories who singed that legal document.
Article I only unites the two, KINGDOMS and a KINGDOM is a royal realm – it is NOT a country nor a state.
Article III then sets up an entirely new parliament to run the newly united equally sovereign two kingdoms as one.
Furthermore the Kingdom of England in 1706/7 was comprised of three countries which is why England, Wales and N. Ireland are all under the English legal system and Scotland alone has her own legal system.
Legallly anything that the United Kingdom Parliament has signed or ruled upon since 1st May 1707 is the property of both kingdom’s parliaments wheb the union disunites.
It is a false premise that Scotland is leaving the United Kingdom – Scotland is disuniting the United Kingdom parliament and England has no, (elected as such), English parliament and that is in breach of the laws of England.
Regarding Ireland having a lower borrowing rate. I’m sure in the first TV debate Darling mentioned Iceland & Ireland were at some point ‘bust’. At times it seems too many of these myths go unchallenged from the Yes side. These need to be nailed there and then.
Looking forward to tonight, I agree with the posters who have mentioned Alex behaving like a statesman. While I was slightly underwhelmed with his performance last time, its not me and you he needs to convince. Its the undecideds he needs to bring round to Yes. And the polls since have suggested he done that. All of us on here would love to see him tear Darling apart but its the undecideds that matter. Thats who he needs to reach out to.
Seems like this will be the last TV debate, with BTUKOK feart of any more. In a sense I’m glad. As we on the Yes side keep saying, this isn’t about Alex Salmond. We don’t want this reduced to a reality tv type personality contest. It’s the future of our country! It’s not going to be Alex Salmond that wins us this vote, it will be us, the people of Scotland, out there banging the drum, convincing people we can do so much better than this!
Bit of a long first post, may as well make up for lost time! Been reading for a good while, love everyones contributions. Fantastic analysis Rev. Keep up the good work people!
Gideon obviously didn’t read the “Western Economies for Dummies”* at Oxford did he.
Tsk, Tsk.. Bad Gideon..
( * feel free to offer alternative Book Titles he did read – sorry no prizes are available, only the kudos of appearing on Wings, surely that’s enough for any man or woman – or Lord/Lady if your a Tory reader..lol)
@Edward says: 24 August, 2014 at 11:39 pm:
““That BT rep in the video stated that she didn’t understand GDP as she was a lawyer and party candidate!”
WHIT! A lawyer that doesn’t understand what either GDP or Per Capita GDP are?
They have to be having a laugh!
@goldenayr says:25 August, 2014 at 12:19 am:
“I hope you’re not in bed yet,here’s something that’ll have you laughing till morning.”
link to morningstaronline.co.uk
I did miss it, goldenayr. In fact I fell asleep with my head on the keyboard and woke up again at 2:00am with a crick in my neck. I’d probably slept on if the wee dog had not woke me as she needed out for a pee having missed her pre-bed run in the garden.
The only conclusions that can be reached upon reading these daft journalists is that they are totally stupid or they think the readership are. Mind you the latter could be correct for someone has bound to have told the numpties how stupid their articles were. Even if the Editor in chief has not.
Thepnr says:25 August, 2014 at 12:34 am:
“Please though stop typing in bold”, (is that better?)
Ah! thepnr, you must be set up with a different screen font than I have for it doesn’t look bad on any of my three computers. In fact I often have trouble seeing the punctuation marks as they are so tiny. This machine, a big descktop, is not bad but the laptop (and the netbook for use in the campervan), are a struggle if the light is bright.
@Robert Peffers
Nsh, I was wrong. You carry on, I do enjoy your posts.
@Ken500 says: 25 August, 2014 at 6:25 am:
“How dumb are BT? They actually can’t count.”
Heard this one this Sunday morning at the Chapel Level in Kirkcaldy. I’d done most of my shopping and was sitting in the camper van making coffee with the window open and this guy was laying it off his chest to an elderly couple. It went like this –
(and I paraphrase).
No Guy: The Scots are subsidised by the UK.
Old Lady: How dae ye mak that oot?
No Guy:There’s more of us than there is of you and so we pay more in tax.
Old Guy: That’s daft.
Old wife: Aye! sae ye dae bit ye hae mair folk tae support wi yer ain taxes.
No Guy:But we give you a block grant with our money..
Old Guy: No ye dinna ’cause it’s no yer money it’s UK money an Scotland’s in the UK tae.
Old wife: Aye an wi pit mair in nor wi get oot.
No Guy: We pay for your pensions, though.
Old Guy: No ye dinna wi aw pey the same stamps.
Old wifie:, (begining to get angry), Ye dinna ken whit yer talkin aboot – wha telt yo aw they lies?
No Guy: Whips out a leaflet and brandishes it at old lady. It’s all in here.
Old Lady: whips our WBB – Aye! weel it’s aw in here tae an if ye kent whit ye wir talkin aboot ye wid ken wir per capita GDP is mair nor the UK Per Capita GDP sae we subsidise you.
No Guy: what’s per capita GDP?
Old Dear! Awa ye gan ye daft numptie.
And the NO guy wandered away. I’ve no idea if he was an official No campaigner or not.
Me: laughing out loud. Come on round the van an get a cup o coffee, Hen. Ye baith earned it.
Nice couple from a retirement home in the town, out to do some shopping.
Thing is, I was so interested in them, I forgot to go to B&Q for the bits to finish the flag pole I’m building so I’ll have to go back to B&Q tomorrow.
@ Robert Peffers
I’m not accepting any deflection.
At some point after a yes vote the government and/or people of that part of the current United Kingdom which is not Scotland will decide on a name for their country.
In the meantime ‘rUK’ is a place holder, that’s all; don’t get so hung-up on it. It’s just a lot quicker to type than “that part of the current United Kingdom which is not Scotland”.
The name they choose may even be the UK, which is fine. It doesn’t have to be the United Kingdom of this and that, it can be just the United Kingdom. One Kingdom, which is united. It’s a name.
Damn, just typed a long post about interest rates, didn’t save it, and the system swallowed it whole. I can’t be arsed typing it again.
@ kendomacaroonbar
But it’s not the same.
The current arrangement is a single state, the UK, which issues its own currency, and issues debt in that same currency. As the debt is issued in the same currency which the state issues, the state can never be forced into default.
After a yes vote there will be two independent states. If there is a currency union – as talked about by BoE governor Mark Carney, with both sides ceding sovereignty – there will be a single currency issuer, but it won’t be either of the two states. It will be a third party, like the ECB for the Euro.
Neither state will control its own currency. This is key.
Scotland can probably get away with not having its own currency, depending on export earnings. rUK though must have its own currency, or it won’t be able to fund the deficits it will be running, just as the existing UK does, for the foreseeable future.
One single state which issues its own currency vs two independent states, neither of which issue their own currency. The arrangements are not remotely similar.
@Willie Galbraith says: 25 August, 2014 at 6:35 am:
“I have doubts but like Alasdair Darling and Georgs Osborne I do not have a degree in economics. Alex Salmond does”.
Aye! Willie,and more to the point Salmond has a proven work record of actually being a very successfully employed economist before turning to politics.
Neither of the two you mentioned ever made an honest living from their economics knowledge. What’s more you missed out Crash Gordon who was another one with nothing to prove they could even add two and two.
@G. P. Walrus says:25 August, 2014 at 7:45 am:
“Glad it made you laugh. I thought it was priceless, particularly Blair Jenkins taking over as supreme ruler and attacking Norway.”
Now not a lot of people know this but I wrote a monthly wee story in the local Community Council Newsletter for some years under the pen name of A.J. Cronie, (a play on A.J. Cronin).
These were both comic & had wee moral slants on such matters as litter, vandalism and about local events and happenings. I do have a well developed sense of humour and often see the funny side of situations. I also ran my own website with many hunderds of my own poems, very short and longer short stories.
Is EVERYTHING they say a lie? Carney had indicated that interest would rise when unemployment dropped below 7%. After it DID drop below 7% he then said employment was just an “indicator”. Of course he said privately that George Osborne was a ” huckster”. But what SHOULD be remembered is that the BoE rate is artificially low and, in fact, a sign of poor fiscal health, its caused flight to assets and damaged pensions. Its building a time-bomb for house owners who can only afford their mortgage at current rates. Lies built on lies…
BrianW says:
25 August, 2014 at 11:57 am
“Gideon obviously didn’t read the “Western Economies for Dummies”* at Oxford did he. Tsk, Tsk.. Bad Gideon. ( * feel free to offer alternative Book Titles he did read.
How about, “Answering the phone and typing what you hear, for numpties”. “Folding Towels & hanging up ties for idiots”. “How to become an elected MP for liars”? and finally, “How to not run an Economy for Tories”?
@FlimFlamMan says: 25 August, 2014 at 1:47 pm:
“In the meantime ‘rUK’ is a place holder, that’s all”.
Call it what it is, “The Kingdom of England”. It could engender two good possible results. They could accuse you of anti-Englishness. To which you point out that it is in fact correct to include Wales & N. Ireland as part of that kingdom as these were indeed part of the deal of the Treaty of Union. The other is to reverse what they are doing to the Scots – making it seem that Westminster not only has sovereignty over Scotland or that, (as quoted by the lonely Tory, David Mundell), “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom”. You thus start to inform soft NOs of exactly what Westminster, wrongly, thinks it is doing.
How urgently the UK and a majority of the Scottish media too are salivating for a NO Victory and are out for the blood of any with the temerity to support YES. Comment and article -often vicious and personal, especially toward our FM. A visit to the Guardian website is a depressing confirmation. I hope the YES vote will grow despite this, based upon a discernment of the dangerous implications of Unionist intent and the common ideology informing NO.
To Robert Peffers.
Quote
Here’s an example – can you tell whether Ecks is angling for a currency union or to get the Westminster parties to come out in unison against it?
Unquote
It wouldn’t surprise me if AS was angling to have an independent Scotland begin it’s life dept free.
And able to site the rUK, Con, Lab and LibDems, fault for ruling out a CU even though he (AS) tried so hard. ie No share of assets No share of liabilities.
@ Robert Peffers
You may well be right about what the non-Scottish constituent of the UK ought to be called now, based on originating treaties, conquests and so on, but from what I’ve seen rUK is used as a place holder for whatever “that part of the current United Kingdom which isn’t Scotland” gets called after Scottish independence.
Given the devolved status of Wales and Northern Ireland, and calls for some level of devolution for Cornwall, I think one thing we can be pretty sure about is the state in question not being called the Kingdom of England.
[…] link to wingsoverscotland.com […]