The winds of change
Posted on
March 25, 2018 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Remember that time, barely over a decade ago, when the readers of the Scottish Daily Express came out for independence despite national polls only showing support in the 20s, the paper sold over 80,000 copies a day (now just 38,000) and Severin Carrell of the Guardian reported that it was about to adopt independence as its official position?
(Which we don’t think ever actually happened.)
Because nothing is weirder than Scottish politics.
Still, just goes to show, eh?
The difference between us is that you believe that I, because I am English I suspect, am personally responsible for all of our countries past – be it glorious or shameful – whilst somehow, you are not.
Tell me how that works Bob.
Maybe your on to something sensible d. Switch your, “because I am English I suspect” for, this UK union. That works.
“For example, because we ran India (mainly Scots BTW) back in the day, we shouldn’t kick Sadam Hussain out of Kuwait, or try to stop ISIS in Iraq or the Taliban from killing in Afghanistan
That works.”
Why did the Saudis not kick Sadam Hussain out of Kuwait,” because they have enough oil.
Tories will never change. Rule Britannia, bullshnit like there’s no tomorrow, its the great British way and Scotland will be ours for ever and ever.
Heedy
You refuse to stick to the point and continue deflect and “whatabout”
Bob asked me about Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq. I answered him.
I get what you are saying. You are saying that your “let em die” policy is superior and more moral than the UK’s policy of attempting to intervene to save lives.
I get it Heedy … I just disagree with you. Your pacifism and appeasement rarely works. Sadly, whether its a Jahadi John, a Hitler, a Putin or a Gaddaffi, turning the other cheek is unlikely to lead to a better life for the majority of folk. Sometimes, distressingly, force is the only response that stops aggression.
@Sensibledave,
No Dave. Nice piece of avoidance there. How many died because we intervened is the actual question you should be asking. We might have saved several thousand lives,but at what cost Dave?
Would you like to have a guess at the total number of civilian casualties we accrued in order to save several thousand ?
Perhaps that doesn’t suit your narrative though.
I’m sure the saved Bosnians,Yazidis and Libyans were all better human beings than the murderous children, women, and other civilians who died instead.
Balance Dave,balance.
sensibledave says:
27 March, 2018 at 4:16 pm
Heedy
You refuse to stick to the point and continue deflect and “whatabout”
No, this is what you are doing sensible d. Its what high tories like you do all the time, as in your leaping around the centuries to try and bludgeon the NO into YES voters, YOU Scots ran British Imperial India, so vote NO be British. What would you do to save Bosnian Muslims, decades ago, Vote No, WE Brits are heroic saviours! and so on.
If you had even a shred of decency, you would not use wars, civil wars in particular, for your strange toryboy vote NO Scotland ranting and raving.
Its just tory Britnat bullshit sensible. Doesn’t work online does it.
Bob Mack 4:24 pm
You wrote “No Dave. Nice piece of avoidance there. How many died because we intervened is the actual question you should be asking. We might have saved several thousand lives,but at what cost Dave?
We know what the outcome has been bob, we can count the bodies. What we dont know is how many would have died had we not intervened – and that is the point I was trying to make. You appear to take the position that only intervention leads to death. I was making the point that non-intervention leads to certain death, sometimes in the form of unopposed genocide and the slaughter of innocents.
Once again, you seek to take the moral high ground. There are no winners and losers in these situations – only what we hope is the least worst outcome.
This started when you took the position that everything the UK gets involved with is, in effect, warmongering. I reject that.
The world has “rules”. Countries are not allowed to invade other countries is one. So when Sadam invaded Kuwait, he broke the rules. What should the world have done Bob? No one has 20/20 future vision. We weigh up the options, the pros and cons, and then we do whatever it is we decide. People will die when countries break the rules. Countries that beak the rules are responsible for that Bob.
Iraq invading Kuwait or Russia annexing Croatia or Ukraine – those are the catalysts of war. Maybe in your fluffy world, Saddam stops at Kuwait. But what if he doesn’t?
The truth is, democracies don’t go to war with each other Bob. The trouble comes from non-democracies. The Middle East is full of non-democracies and that is the major part of the problem – as well you should know.
We see countries that did have, albeit briefly, a western style democracy, that now have something else (Putin’s Russia where they now ban the opposition, or Turkey where we see the secular state being shrunk in favour of Sharia). Dangerous times.
You wrote “Balance Dave,balance.”
… Which is exactly what I am trying to do Bob – by not accepting that pacifism and appeasement is always the best way.
@Sensibledave,
Jaw,jaw is better than war war. I suspect you have never actually been involved in a war Dave. You wouldn’t find it so easy to launch the army if you had. It is not surgical or clinical. It is blood guts and body parts. It is vomit inducing and often leads to PTSD for those who engage. It is people ripped to shreds or looking like a raw steak by munitions designed to do just that,and begging to die or be killed.
No Dave, war is only proferred by those who have never done it or seen it except on a screen.
I believe Saddam was in full retreat before a shot was fired by the way. Back home.
Bob and Heedtracker – I would suggest that you are both being too hard on “Sensible”, he is at least polite and tries to construct his case – however, it is likely that he has been educated in England therefore history comprised of that jolly old comedian Henry VIII and “Gloriana” the virgin queen who slaughtered many tens of thousands of people in Ireland simply because she did not like their religion – the list of these English and subsequently British disasters, imposed on many peoples, is endless. Agincourt and Crecy are much praised but Bauge is never mentioned nor the fact that they lost the 100 years war in which they took place. He will also consume, on a daily basis, some of the worst press and broadcast news on the planet which consists of a daily white-knighting of anything Britain, British sportspeople and of course the lousy politicians at Westminster, do. The are fed a diet of glory and dying for the queen and other her personalities they adore – especially if they are rich. Fortunately, and although they look down on us and almost the rest of the world, we were at least taught to think for ourselves, a task that the Rev, and many other bloggers, have carried on, in the absence of any decent independent press, with the possible exception of the National – which I sometimes have doubts about. So don’t be too hard on “Sensible” – remember they love a war down Westminster way and nothing beats putting on a red tunic and marching up and down to martial music – you know like puppets! Shame really he seems like a decent bloke!
Shame really he seems like a decent bloke!
He’s a tory party activist at a rough guess, south coast of his precious union. And not at all keen on England becoming England again one bit.
You have to wonder if they have any clue just how foriegn their planet toryboy stuff really is, up here in their Scotland region.
They’re an odd lot UKOK toryboys but they do own, run, control, tax, feed off of their Scotland region and ultimately, they really do want to wipe Scotland off the face of teamGB once and for all.
Can they do it eh, sensible d:D
Won’t argue with anything you wrote Heedtracker, but he does seem like a decent bloke and, no, they don’t have a clue about Scotland and yes they’d rather we didn’t exist as that entity. Their terror is to be left alone and of course without Scotland’s financial support. Unfortunately for English people, most of whom are decent folks, they are heading for a very lonely future – mostly because they didn’t know to be “nice” to people on their way up!
@Robert Peffers
That Galileo thing, it would cost a fortune for the UK to put up its own system. As for the space industry, that would hit Scotland very hard, and could be a reason on its own for Independence and EU / EFTA membership very quickly.
Bill McLean
He’d cheerfully throttle me for my cheek Bill.
He’s a nasty git but everyone’s got a dark side. Its tories like him that use it to decide who to vote for.
Heady
Haha. So I am a Tory party activist now? Earlier today I was you apparently … as well as Peffers for heavens sake … now I am an activist. What is with you lot, can you not understand or accept that someone may just have a different view to you … and is happy to do voluntary missionary work to educate and inform?
Anyway, play nicely I am logging off now … although I might reappear as the Rev, or St Sturgeon, or Heedy, or bob Mack, or rock, or…
Nighty night!
Sensibledave says:
27 March, 2018 at 10:30 pm
Heady
Haha. So I am a Tory party activist now?
Yes you are, not just because your vote NO vote tory waffle, dripping in very violent British warfare as per, exactly parrots what we get from the tory creep show, up here, down your neck of teamGB, on tv, radio etc, from BoJo to Farage.
And how did you come across WoS anyway sensible d, a high tory, openly batting for Britain, in the south of England, btl WoS, is very unusual?
There’s an almost total beeb gimp led media blackout on anything Scotland at all down in the south east, other than Nic Sturgeon bad and especially Scottish democracy.
You could never be me Sensible. I’m smart.
Bob Mack
Bob, history is littered with loonie despots that do not understand anything other than resistance by force. Chamberlain took your approach with Hitler and, as we know, appeasement doesn’t always work.
You have already agreed that you would have sent our armed forces into Bosnia, Iraq and Libya to take action. So, if you want to pick a particular event in the recent past where you thought, at the time, the UK was doing the wrong thing, I will give you my view at that time.
We will then see if there is any difference. between us – other than I am English – and therefore you are not allowed to agree with me on principal.
sensibledave says:
28 March, 2018 at 10:59 am
Bob Mack
Bob, history is littered with loonie despots that do not understand anything other than resistance by force. Chamberlain took your approach with Hitler and, as we know, appeasement doesn’t always work.
Typical tory Anglo centric take on world history sensible d. You lot really think England defeated the Nazis.
Its all about who writes history isn’t it. So what if Chamberlain had not done the peace in our time thing and declared war with Germany a year early? It would have made no difference either way. But it does help the tory britnat warmonger bollox rolling, that somehow England was and is in the middle of it all, down but not out, and went on to win the war ofcourse.
Wish I was toryboy sometimes sensible d. Life must be so simple for you lot.
Please don’t start a war with Russia next sensible d.
@Sensibledave,
Your way means death to millions in any event. My way gives hope of life. Make no mistake here. The next World War means Armageddon. No life except what our stone age ancestors endured. It will be that bad.
So what then. Your pride is maintained because you stood up to the aggressor? Meanwhile you have to watch everyone you know and care about being killed off by radiation,hunger,sickness, even other human beings and animals gone feral.
The only way to fight these days is guerilla warfare. In amongst the enemy.
Bob
… you have lost the plot Bob. I have no idea what you are talking about.
sensibledave says:
28 March, 2018 at 3:16 pm
Bob
… you have lost the plot Bob. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Not surprising sensible. You grab at any war, civil or otherwise, at any time in history, any history, to make your very crappy UK rules the waves and can save/change the world case.
@Sensibledave,
You never did. Armchair warrior who thinks tough till you have to do it yourself. That’s very different.
Go back to war games on your computer son, because if you tried the real thing you’d be shitting yourself
Heedy & Bob
If your proposition is that Scotland should not have have an army, an air force or a navy then put that in the manifesto and put it to the people. I am confident that the average Scot would have nothing to do with you. If you want to be part of NATO then you need to pay others to do your dirty work. If you don’t want to pay into Nato then, in these changing times, you will know that your trade deals will be affected to reflect that policy.
The option of using other countries’ umbrellas at no cost is gone.
If you are alluding to the keeping of nuclear weapons then you know my argument will be that they have kept “the west”, USSR/Russia and China from warring with each other – it is as simple as that – and I have 72 years of factual history to back that up rather than some fluffy ideology that has never been tested.
Both your comments about the Uk’s (including Scotlands) actions over the last 72 years are those of warped, twisted haters and I dismiss them, totally, on that basis. If you had your way, we would be part of Germany.
Once again, I am glad and confident that you two loonies will never be near enough to the levers of power to influence the defense of (or rather the immediate capitulation of) Scotland to anyone that happens to be passing and takes a fancy.
I am sure your colleagues here on Wings are very proud of you two.
Both your comments about the Uk’s (including Scotlands) actions over the last 72 years are those of warped, twisted haters and I dismiss them, totally, on that basis. If you had your way, we would be part of Germany.
In the round sensible, what your toryboy wars stuff shows is just how different tory England is to non tory Scotland.
Nary the two shall meet, kind of thing sensible d.
Interesting that a toryboy like skips over US/UK Iraq invasion.
If Blair and Brown had actually seen the inside of a courtroom for their Iraq war, instead of merely retiring to great wealth, or, if say every MP that voted for it, had actually been at the very least subjected to some form of impeachment, your toryboy jibberjabber might at least have some moral core to be pounding the toryboy wardrums btl WoS.
Real worry for non tory Scotland is, never shaking off tory clowns like you sensible, that the next UKOK war will be even hotter, the carnage, civilian and military, the mass refugee crisis, rolling civil wars, endless war on terror… or, what next from delusional tory twerps like you sensible d.
Gordon Brown sussed it out ages ago, so he blew £10 bn for his two white elephant aircraft carriers, in Scotland, in his constituency, because as you repeatedly point out sensible, war is great for teamGB. Not one blue toryboy said a word against such a colossal pointless waste of money.
Did Brown have any fast jets for his white elephant carriers sensible d? Didn’t matter one bit to that red tory Britnat, or a blue one like you.
Its actually terrifying sensible. Ofcourse, none of you imperial masters ever stop to consider that it might be your homes, your towns and cities, your lives, safe back in England, that could just as easily be destroyed by your wars.
Its all just another hangover, the great toryboy “we won the war” delusion.
Thanks again for displaying it all sensible d, although you probably didn’t need to.
@Sensibledave,
We will fight them on the beaches.
Hitler never wanted war with Britain. Heard of the phoney war Dave? That’s why the abdicated King Edward got on so well with him. That’s why the current Queen was photographed with her family giving Nazi salutes when she was a girl. Do you actually believe if Germany had not been fighting on several fronts we would have won ? Lol.
My father was a member of the Royal Household Cavalry. He knew the truth. You clearly do not.
@Sensibledave,
A little chronology for you Dave
1940 The British Army gets its ass handed to it at Dunkirk. The German Panzer divisions ,on Hitler orders stay outside Dunkirk and allow the majority of the British Army to evacuate.
1941 Rudolph Hess the Deputy Fuhrer lands alone in Scotland on “a peace mission” as witnesses heard.why, if Germany was resolutely throwing everything at us?
Before you say the navy would have stopped the Gerry, remember what happened to the two greatest battleships in the fleet Renown and Prince of Wales in Singapore.
No Dave, it was not all out war till nearly 1942.
O/T ONLY 10 SLEEPS TO GO!!!!!!
WINGERS NIGHT OUT
7th April
OTTERS HEAD
WOODSIDE, GLENROTHES
Kick off approx 7:00 pm
Full details posted over on off topic now
Bob Mack
I have noticed that you make more sense in the mornings Bob. By the afternoons and evenings you become a raving loonie. Why is that Bob? A few too many drams?
I wrote ….
“How about you Bob? If you controlled British Armed Forces ….
Would you have let the Bosnian Muslims die?
Would you have let the Libyans die in Benghazi?
Would you have let the Yazidis be slaughtered in Iraq
Would you have let all those innocents die when you, as the decision maker, knew you had the power to save those 10s of 1000s lives?
You wrote “No Dave, I would probably not.
I took it therefore that you were “for” the use of powerful forces using men, machines and armaments to pursue a cause that you personally believed was the “righteous path”
However, when I agree with you, I am a murderous, empire craving warmongerer.
… which, I believe, makes you a hypocritical, disingenuous, wrong-headed, pompous, two-faced, errr… person
@Sensibledave,
Only because I do not agree with you ? Ever heard of transference Dave? You show every indication.
You seem desperate to kill something. Why not your ego instead? Bye Dave.
Some reading for you Dave. Check out Russian sub B59, and also Stanislav Petrov Russian Air Force.
If they thought the way you did, we would not be here to have this conversation
Bob
Let us just keep this simple and go one step at a time, please explain why, for instance, me believing that sending bombers into Iraq to protect the Yazidis is being a murderous warmongerer … when you would do exactly the same? You make no sense whatsoever.
?Sensibledave,
There is a world of difference between using force as a defence weapon and using force as an aggressor. One is very limited in terms of scope and targeting.
This conversation began because you felt that we had to face up an aggressor. I have given you two examples where the nasty Russians actually prevented Armageddon at great expense to the two men involved.
Interestingly enough the daughter of Mr Skripal seems to be recovering from the deadliest ever nerve agent, just like the police sergeant.
My point is. Know when and where to rattle your sabre, but know even more when to put it back in its scabbard. You are too quick to profer unsustainable solutions to problems that can be solved by other means..
Bob
… my proffered solution was a joint, international show of unity and resolve in response to the latest, and a whole series of irrational, aggressive acts by Russia. You see that a sabre rattling, whilst me, Ms Sturgeon, the uk government, the eu, the USA, Australia, Latvia, etc, … see it as an appropriate response to a state that is going rogue and ignoring a whole series of international charters that they are signatories too.
Your solution was to do nothing. I think you said we had two choices: do nothing or be annihilated.
You have been shown the alternative … and it is the right one.
One would have to be very twisted and warped to characterise the uk’s position as warmongering.
One would have to be very twisted and warped to characterise the uk’s position as warmongering.”
Your battle and war cherry picking bloodlust to score toryboy war points, is pretty ghastly sensible d, even for you.
How comes there’s no UKOK fast jets bombing this government for its military genocide here right now sensible d?
https://www.aljazeera.com/topics/country/myanmar.html
Will Scotland ever shake off appalling tory creeps like you sensible? that’s your headline.
Heedy
… given that Ms Sturgeon and myself are on the same side as each other on this, but she is the one setting the policy on behalf of Scotland …. perhaps you should write to her and her cabinet and tell her …. “Your battle and war cherry picking bloodlust to score toryboy war points, is pretty ghastly …..
…. idiot!