The winds of change
Posted on
March 25, 2018 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Remember that time, barely over a decade ago, when the readers of the Scottish Daily Express came out for independence despite national polls only showing support in the 20s, the paper sold over 80,000 copies a day (now just 38,000) and Severin Carrell of the Guardian reported that it was about to adopt independence as its official position?
(Which we don’t think ever actually happened.)
Because nothing is weirder than Scottish politics.
Still, just goes to show, eh?
funny how some unionists main concern is the name of Queen Betty 2– sorry the 1st. All other issues are of no importance. Just think how many foodbanks there were then and now, how much less funding there is in the public sector, how many conventional fighting forces the UK had and now, How many navy ships were being promised then for the Clyde. How the tories are just as selfish then than now. How many euro-sceptics refused to accept a referendum from a way back in the ’70’s. Rees Mogg was still a pillock though.
It really just proves that it is the owners of these newspapers
who call the tune. Not the Editor, not the Journalists, and certainly not public opinion.
The employees must serve their master and spew forth the stories that influence the Public into the owners own way of thinking, or its a visit to the job centre.
That way of thinking is always what is in it for me, and how much will I make out of it.
Fascinating to look back to those innocent times. How fast they closed ranks, by closing down debate and replacing it with outdated opinion disguised as news.
That’s what the French call ‘faux amis’ ie false friends. There are so many of then intent upon laying false trails in our country’s political discourse.
Unionist propaganda alert, the Mac Gregor brothers on the state broadcaster #1 tonight pay tribute to 100 years of the RAF…chocks away chaps, from Lossiemouth NB.
…and then came the phone call from their bosses down south.
The Scottish Mail on Sunday and the Scottish Sunday Express front pages are splattered with “SNP paid Facebook”. We look forward to Stuart telling us the truth.
Interesting, though, how these anti-Scottish rags keep the word “Scottish” in their titles.
Abulhaq, is it a repeat of quite a few years ago? The one where Euan gets to go up in a plane with his brother and has his usual maniacal laugh ?
Desmond has sold the Express group for £125Million. Barely less than he paid for it 10? Years ago. to the Mirror Trinity. (more left? or interested in making profits). Shares sold in the stock market. More sales/profits could put the share price up and cover expenses.
Watch the rest jump on the bandwagon? Alex Salmond said there would be a tipping point for the
Press.
This is so unbelievable it looks like a spoof?
Change of ownership.
I would have thought newspaper proprietors would be among the first to a holiday at Her Majesty’s pleasure, given thought crimes are now to be purged from decent society.
“With these rights, however, come responsibilities to the public interest: to respect the truth, to obey the law and to uphold the rights and liberties of individuals. In short, to honour the very principles proclaimed and articulated by the industry itself ” (Leveson 2012:4).
link to webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk
No one is forced to tell lies. Thst is a personal decision. Often for remuneration. The bigger the stake the bigger the lies. Westminster unionists proves it.
At the end of the day the newspapers owners want to sell newspapers and will say anything to do so. I didn’t believe the Sun over a quarter a century ago that they believed 100% in Independence but it was used as a marketing tool to get at the Record circulation which was very high then, now greatly reduced.
.. and if the Daily Record put ist oar in with independence or brexit would Rock buy it?
Actually the day is approaching whether some papers in Scotland would support independence or brexit.
I almost hear Gordon Brown being wheeled out to shout Vow! Vow! Vow! or is it drink drink….. Nope being a strict son of the cloth No Surrender….
Well they changed their mind.
It’s not clear if half their readershop then abandoned it, or moved online. But if 59% of Daily Express readers voted for independence then there is something very far wrong with the “national” polls showing only 20+% pro indpendence.
Just how long has the Ministry of Defence been buying interference with elections/polls?
The print versions of Cambridge Analytica
They’ve always attempted to influence the public by filling their heads with whatever suits their motives at the time
Don’t mention the Scottish referendum Pike
Lies lies lies
Well, we won’t be fooled again. Or at least I hope so!
@DorothyDevine
A new prog. 1h30 of TopGear type over the hill laddish messing about in planes I think.
England with back to wall etc. Fits the mood of the times, what with all that EU and Russia stuff.
We certainly need a pro Indy Sunday paper. The boring Sunday Herald isn’t it, infested with disgruntled little Labourites.
How about a Sunday National?
I seem to remember the Scottish and rUK editions of UK papers being very different, almost separate papers exchanging syndicated stories where appropriate.
Now with the lower readership the two editions seem to be a re-badging exercise as much as anything. How many staff do these “Scottish” editions employ in Scotland? They can’t afford to produce two editions with different views.
Don’t know about the Newspapers – but listening, (with only half an ear), to Radio, “Haggis & Clapshot””, this am, there seemed to be much less than usual unionist bias.
The BBC seems to be in as much of a state of utter confusion as is Westminster.
Was that just a stunt to raise sales, probably. Now I don’t even class the Express as a credible newspaper in any way.
BREAKING
Carles Puigdemont detained in Germany.
On topic.
Acquiring skills and knowledge which allows a reader to sift and appraise the content of any media critically is probably one of the most essential life skills out there.
If you want your opinion to remain your own. If you want to make an informed choice as opposed to having your choices made for you. Then learning to translate wonkspeak and journosplaining is self defence for the mind.
Understanding the motivations of politicians and corporate media is self defence 101 and lays the basis for everything they say and everything they do.
This site? An awesome classroom. 🙂
Ach! Predictive text has switched itself back on again – I typed Westminster not Westminster.
(In case you’re wondering, this comment is really just a test to check that I have now turned it back off again.
I still have the front page of the Sun – “Rise Now And Be A Nation Again”.
Well done Stu. Plenty of bites
Newspapers,facebook,TV …
their prime goal is to make money from advertising
nothing altruistic,just more sales means more advertisers means more money,
not good not bad just a fact.
Sorry can’t stop laffin at America the land where people shoot everything that walks crawls or slithers and shoots each other every day as well is complaining that if Scotland doesn’t stop shooting seals they won’t buy our Salmon because they’re outraged
LOL
There’s a difference.
Support for Indy in 2008 was a gimmick marketing tool trying sell more newspapers. They were content to indulge us when they didn’t think we’d actually do it.
In 2018, the Union is hanging by a rotten last thread, and with the final push about to begin, Unionism has already sold its soul and abandoned its integrity, not just over it’s lies about Scotland, but through it’s own rabid xenophobia, BritNat exceptionalism, and warmongering hysteria which has brought the deluded UK to the brink of the Brexit catastrophe, and the pinnacle of bigoted idiocy which Brexit represents.
The UK is an international laughing stock, but where all the giggles and the ridicule are tinged with a cold undertone. As the UK circles the drain, it might be about to discover how few and fickle it’s friends actually are. Who is going to rush to help the pound foolish Pennywise of 21st Century geopolitics, the psychotic clown already contriving its next war with Russia, but with so much blood on its hands already?
The Express is every bit as guilty for bringing all of this to pass as Farage, Johnson, Gove, May, and all the other shit-stirring cabin crew aboard the Ship of Fools.
Well Hell mend all of them. Onward Scotland! Let’s go. Let us be free of all this and leave it behind.
They are at it again with predictive text. I seems like it is to do with, “auto complete”.
In Windows 10 if you press the windows button and X button together on your keyboard and then type into the search box, “Auto Complete”, you will see more than one result and that seems to be the problem.
Microsoft and others are sticking auto complete into everything and it is linked to predictive text.
Talk about freedom of speech!
What about freedom of typing & text?
Macart,
link to straitstimes.com
OT
I am pro EU but if the authorities in some countries allow the political arrests of Catalonians then when we vote for Independence I for one will support us to be outwith the EU.
The silence fron May and the court jester Bris Johnston is deafening. I suppose if I have millions and are friends of Putin I can stay in London.
Holiday in Catolinia boycott Espana?
[…] Wings Over Scotland The winds of change Remember that time, barely over a decade ago, when the readers of the Scottish Daily […]
@Hamish100
I agree. So long as we’re in the EU every single one of us is subject to arrest, detention and deportation at the whim of any member state. All that’s required is a European Arrest Warrant with your name on it.
That is an odd read. How the years of UKOK hackdom rule fly by. Tbf, Severin is one of our, lets say, sterner imperial masters, always has been, always will be, SNP out, Scotland is a region of greater England/doesn’t exist, by order, Master Severin.
It was funny watching all of them whine about Master Severin getting barred from Salmond’s resignation news conference, it even made beeb Scotland gimp news at 6.
Can’t think why, progressive liberal non nationalist Graun wise. What a lovely crew of tories The Graun are:D
@ Dave McEwan Hill, snap! If spending a couple of quid on the Sunday Herald is furthering the cause of Scottish independence then I’m gauny have a helluva long wait judging by todays SNP Baaad offering! It’s a house mag’ for Slab-Green-Commonspace-cadets & time I just bought a lottery ticket instead!
Hamish 100 – totally agree! I have always been proEU but after independence likely now not to want to be full member. No longer buy Spanish produce – and San Miguel is one of my favourite drinks. There has to be some element of decency to support my type, or indeed any type, of democracy – where is it now?
I see that Matthew Ch:23 V:24 applies to the dead tree press today.
The fact that they have to go back 7 years to even muster up a figure that sounds even mildly significant while ignoring the vastly larger sums spent by other parties in the same period has to be the very definition of propaganda.
Just googling Master Severin barred from the Salmond 19 Sept 2014 press conference. As ever its that classic blend of UKOK tory con artist news. Was Master Severin barred or not?
Usual Torygraph zoomer headline next day,
“Telegraph reporters were among journalists from at least three national newspapers barred from Alex Salmond’s press conference where he announced his resignation”
But Master Severin says he wasn’t going anyway. Why would he, he won. He’s much too big for that kind of carry on.
“Guardian declined its place at Alex Salmond’s post #indyref press conference after Scottish Govt insisted on picking Guardian reporter.”
Then there’s the real world of Severin and Alex.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
And having destroyed Scottish democracy as much as The Graun possible, its now Mark Zuckerberg’s turn. Because Master Severin will not permit Scots even chatting to each other about Scottish democracy, on Facebook, un moderated even. Oh yes!
Puigdemont’s arrest in Germany for rebellion against the Spanish state is a nasty stain on the reputation of the EU, a blemish sufficient even to change some pro minds about membership. The British state will be following this case with particular interest.
@Smallaxe says: 25 March, 2018 at 12:44 pm
link to straitstimes.com
That’s it them!
If Germany has thrown in its lot with Spain they are, between them, signing the death warrant of the European Union and killing it off.
How appropriate that two of the WWII Fascist states are going to end the European Union. I expect that Italy and the
didUnited Kingdom will now be rushing to join them.This may explain BBC Radio Jockland’s more open debate on Brexit this morning. They were debating whether the UK could simply withdraw its formal request to leave the EU and thus remain in the EU without returning to ask the people in a referendum.
With Spain acting against the basic main concepts that built the European Union and now being supported it that by Germany the writing is on the wall. The EU will simply die.
Human rights is centre stage in the EU and that includes the right of an identifiable people to self determination and the Catalans are most certainly, even under Spanish law, an identified people. Described by Spain as a distinct, “Autonomous Region”, of Spain a.k.a. a legally identifiable people.
RIP the European Union, for except for now lying down, you are now declaring yourself dead.
Sigh. Another day, another cynical marketing exercise. They had their chance in 2014 and blew it big time. Even if the position back then had been neutral on independence, giving both sides a fair crack at the whip, they would have gained some respect. But no, no, they became even more rabid british nationalist. They couldn’t help themselves. It’s what defines them.
Sorry, cheps. Whatever the latest, desperate ploy to sell more papers, when push comes to shove, the tory press will fall back into line. They always do. Don’t believe me though, just wait and see for yourselves. 🙂
Dave McEwan Hill says:
25 March, 2018 at 12:21 pm
I still have the front page of the Sun – “Rise Now And Be A Nation Again”.
To which Alex Salmond patiently pointed out, over and over, Scotland IS a nation, uncle Rupert.
Luigi,
No need to wait!
link to twitter.com
OT, sort of, but this “Ultranationalist” would like to invite Mr. Macwhiter to get grip and stop stirring the shit.
@Iain Macwhiter
You make a living out of using words, so what’s your game? Not aware of the difference between nationalism and patriotism? Never heard of British nationalism, or is that ‘good’ nationalism? What’s your stance on Brexit, which is essentially an expression of English cultural nationalism and a misguided reaction to austerity? Would you describe the Prime Minister as an “ultranationalist”?
link to sv.uio.no
No need to wait!
Just another Head of beeb gimp news is on it! Just scrolling down this beeb ligger’s tweetstering, an endless line of UK front pages, tabloid and broadsheet, absolutely none of them even remotely critical of planet toryboy or Strong and Stable.
That’s enough skimming over the great tory beeb gimp zone. ed
link to twitter.com
CameronB Brodie good to see back in the game Cameron! Was wondering…
What have the people of Estonia, Greece or Portugal done in regards to Catalonia to be tarred and punished by threats against the entire EU.
The EU is a group of highly civilised nations acting on shared values.
National leaders often shun those values, misrepresenting their electorates. Why not dray in and push for change.
Heedtracker
Cheers mate. 😉
Maybe another way of looking at the EU Catalonia v Spain problem might be that if you’re the EU right now do you want to be chastising Spain for its bad behaviour when there’s nothing you can actually do about it but throw them out of the EU just at the time when the British will leap to take advantage of the situation and start talking up the breakup of the EU
I’m sure the EU would probably like to do something about Spains behaviour but I also think Spain is taking advantage of the Great English Brexit situation at the same time because of the need for the EU to look united over the Great British Russian murder attempt whether they believe that or not
So do you interfere in what Spain calls its democracy and perhaps annoy other countries who think you might have the audacity to interfere in their countries to do something political other than be a trading block
Or do you wait for the UN to make a decision by saying the world’s had enough of this stop it now or we take action, then the EU could take punitive action without political blowback from other EU countries because it would all be world sanctioned
I’m only suggesting this stuff because almost everybody is appalled by Spains awful behaviour and it shouldn’t be tolerated but I get the impression there’s something else going on we’re not hearing about
It seems a bit like when we were having our referendum the EU said it’s the decision of Scotland whether they leave the UK or not we can’t interfere in a member states business but if Scotland leaves the UK they will be welcome to join the EU but until then it’s none of our business
Britain used subversion to win our referendum but Spain is using brutality to stop one
I guess if the people of Catalonia have the courage and bravery to keep turning out and standing up for each other in the end they must be recognised and it’s a daring and brave thing the Catalans are doing but how much further is Spain prepared to go to crush dissent
And that’s a terrible thought before anything gets done about it
O/T
The arrest of Carles Puigdemont rings the death knell for the EU. If the rEU do not protest this and others’ arrests and condoning political imprisonment in the EU, we are living in dangerous times.
It’s unlikely that the ScotGov will have much say over the implementation of the extradition request of the Catalan lecturer at Aberdeen Uni either.
2018 is so far looking bleak politically, with warring gits and greedy toffs running the show.
Scotland must escape and soon, then decide on what type of relationship is conducive to living in the 21st century, regards the EU. It’s looking very backward right now, a great shame, and shame on those condoning the oppression of a people within the EU itself. Sad days.
The EU have a mission statement which declares that the values of the EU are Democracy,freedom ,the rule of law and respect for all
It states categorically that any state whether member or not who does not respect those values cannot be a member of the EU.
Something else may well be happening but that in no way excuses the EU from ignoring the very foundations on which it was built. It is inexcusable.
The other thing. Why are the Brexiteers not shouting from the rooftops about this being why we need to leave the EU.
It is manna from heaven for them.
Perhaps this silence is the price Spain asks to keep joint sovereignty over Gibraltar?
I am Carles Puigemont!
How dare Germany of all nations support a Fascit regime like Spain.
They need to look up their history books and see where holding nations
as prisoners while declaring themselves to be superior beings will lead them.
I would ban the import of all German vehicles to Scotland until they find the library keys
@I am Carles Puigemont!
How dare Germany of all nations support a Fascit regime like Spain.
They need to look up their history books and see where holding nations
as prisoners while declaring themselves to be superior beings will lead them.
I would ban the import of all German vehicles to Scotland until they find the library keys
Dr Jim
The EU follows the over-riding principle of not getting involving in sub-national disputes over sovereignty, as this may subvert the legal boundaries of the signatory nation states. In fact, I’m pretty sure it lacks the legal instruments to do so, though the implementation of international law to sub-national conflicts, is easier to achieve within the EU than outside it. There’s a technical term for this but I’m not a lawyer.
@Smallaxe
Thanks for the link Smallaxe. We never seem to learn. There are days when you just wish… Fuck it!
HAW! HUMANITY! Get a fucking grip. You’re giving higher reasoning mammals a bad rep!
@ CameronB Brodie – and with such an interesting paper on Nationalism for uberNationalist Mr Macwhirter
@ALANM says: 25 March, 2018 at 12:56 pm:
“I agree. So long as we’re in the EU every single one of us is subject to arrest, detention and deportation at the whim of any member state. All that’s required is a European Arrest Warrant with your name on it.”
Not only that but even within the UK itself, and I quote:-
This, of course, doesn’t stop the UK from then charging an innocent person and then placing them on remand. Nor does it prevent them deporting anyone they please as an illegal immigrant.
implementationapplicationN.B. According to perceived wisdom, Britain is ‘One Nation’. Only ‘One Nation’ joined the EEC, only ‘One Nation’ has the right to decide to leave the EU, apparently.
Capella
I’ve had it with the colonial press and it’s gobshites.
Cameron’s back!
link to youtube.com
Cameron – well you’ve come to the right place 🙂
The German authorities are legally obliged to make the arrest, whether he is sent back is up to a judge, and there are exemptions which would allow refusing, such as the political beliefs of the individual might be used against him if sent back.
louis.b.argyll says:
25 March, 2018 at 2:05 pm
What have the people of Estonia, Greece or Portugal done in regards to Catalonia to be tarred and punished by threats against the entire EU.
Er, nothing. Who is against a Europe of multiple nationalities other than the EU leadership and globalist / Lennonist / Breivik types? (But the Greeks might have a twisted smile when they think about who it is that enforces collective punishment.)
“The EU is a group of highly civilised nations acting on shared values.
National leaders often shun those values, misrepresenting their electorates”
Love the “shared values” weasel words. And if we don’t share them then best bring in a Gauleiter, eh?
O/T
We can confirm that we are in possession of a European arrest warrant for Clara Ponsati. We have made a number of enquiries to try to trace her and have now been contacted by her solicitor, who is making arrangements for Ms Ponsati to hand herself into police.
link to twitter.com
Robert Peffers says:
25 March, 2018 at 3:03 pm
@ALANM says: 25 March, 2018 at 12:56 pm:
“I agree. So long as we’re in the EU every single one of us is subject to arrest, detention and deportation at the whim of any member state. All that’s required is a European Arrest Warrant with your name on it.”
………………………………..
No we are not. We might be arrested but the matter has to go to the Court in the place where you are arrested and the arrest warrant tested by the Court to see if it complies with the law governing extradition under such a warrant and, at the same time, give the person who is the subject of the warrant, a chance to mount a defence against the extradition.
Just because he has been detained in Germany does not mean they are going to put him on the next bus back to Spain.
Back at you RN.
Richard Desmond lost £Millions to ruin the MSM/Press. Not a very good business man. Run the business into the ground. Can’t count or read a balance sheet or make a profit. Sold up at a revelant loss. What a loser. Printing rubbish.
O/T
Oops got my city wrong earlier, Clara Ponsati works at St.Andrews Uni. Have a read of Wee ginger dug for more insight and info on that situation. Nana thanks for the link, to police Scotland twitter. They will, no doubt, comply.
Don’t know if this or similar explanation has been posted
Important: the First Minister, all @ScotGov ministers & the Lord Advocate are legally required to not seek to influence particular judicial decisions. (Section 1 Judiciary and Courts (Scotland) Act 2008, devolved legislation)
link to twitter.com
Hands off our parliament!
Hands off our professors!
Does anyone know
A/ What Clara Ponsati is charged with
B/ If the arrest warrant went first to the member state (UK) then was passed to Scotland (or just a case of passed directly to the relevant judicial authority in the member state ie Scotland)
C/ Whether the charge has an equivalent offence within Scotland or the UK
D/Has Scotland ratified the EU arrest warrant framework into domestic Scots law
E/If Scotland’s judiciary rejects the warrant on whatever pretext (up to and including the fact it is not an EU member state, even if it ratified EAW into domestic law) is there a principle whereby the member state UK, would decide to serve its own EAW or domestic equivalent to compel Scotland to surrender CP.
I smell another boorach of a constitutional nightmare.
Actually, of all the questions above, I’m really interested if Scotland ratified EAW into domestic staute law.
If not – well sucks to be the EU with a useless warrant here then eh? It will become a “domestic” legal issue within the UK and again – sucks to be the EU who don’t interfere in domestic politics.
I dare say, Scotland may say “your writ does not run here, but we have a cross border arrangement with judiciaries within the UK, so England can come and detain CP.
Mind you…England isn’t a member state of the EU and won’t have a valid EAW so…sucks to be you”
10-10 chaps and chapesses. Interesting times.
Independence Live interview with Peter A Bell. Part 1 on independence and nationalism. 18 mins:
link to youtube.com
If you don’t understand why the EU cannot intervene between Spain and Catalonia, then you don’t understand how Constitutional Sovereignty works.
The EU itself is not a sovereign authority, but an amalgamation of 28 Sovereignties, each and every one being able to veto the other 27. The democratic majority of the other 27 powers, all sovereign within their own respective borders, can agree things by consensus, but cannot overrule the sovereign veto of the one.
The Sovereignty of Spain is defined by their own written constitution, and the EU has no leverage or competence to interfere or tamper with a member state’s sovereign constitution. That is an internal matter for the State concerned, and the EU cannot interfere.
If Spain is falling beneath the EU’s membership criteria for democratic accountability, or some other protocol which EU states are expected to observe, then that is a different matter, and the EU might have some power to sanction the State in question, or even suspend its membership, but that would require the case to made and accepted by all other 27 States. It might very well come to this, and perhaps the Catalonians are desperate that it should, but even suspending Spain’s membership would not necessarily further the interests of Catalonia, nor would it necessarily help secure sovereign recognition of Catalonia. Be aware, whatever the EU says in its mission statement, of the 28 EU states, only 11 are considered squeaky clean full democracies. The rest, including Spain are considered flawed democracies.
If Spain’s actions are contained within its own constitutional parameters, then the EU simply has no jurisdiction to do anything. Spanish Sovereignty is the preserve of the Spanish people, and any sub-division of that sovereignty is an internal constitutional matter for the Spanish to resolve.
Catalonia has to conjure up some flaw with the Spanish Constitution which renders it incompatible with democratic accountability, or breaches human rights, or the rights of self determination, or some other method of invalidation which either the EU or UN can uphold and thereby hold the Spanish sovereign constitution to be “disputed”. But that’s not easy, because not being a full democracy, or even being a flawed democracy, does not void a nations constitution. Just look at how many non-democracies there are in the world with full Constitutional integrity.
Until the Spanish Constitution is formally disputed, and successfully disputed, nobody can or will overrule the Spanish sovereign law which is the law currently declaring the actions of the Catalans to be criminal.
It strikes me the Catalans need to get themselves a much better Constitutional Lawyer, and start being much smarter in their strategy. By the same token, and in equal measure, the Spanish government need to get themselves a much better Human Rights Lawyer and start getting much smarter in their own strategy. Because unless they do, then Spain is on the slippery slope towards civil war.
Europe, as usual, is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everybody wants Europe to do something, but actually empowers Europe to do very little.
The scary bit unfolding now is that Germany might now be compelled by pre-existing treaty agreement to hand over Puigdemont to the Spanish if the arrest warrant is legit, and that unavoidable commitment will indeed have desperate resonance for the Nazi Gestapo handing over Lluís Companys to the Spanish Fascists who executed him.
It’s a real nasty situation developing, but the heads which need banged together are the Spanish and the Catalans. Don’t be in a rush to condemn or blame Europe. Europe is still a work in progress. I would certainly hope and expect that behind closed doors, Spain is coming under increasing pressure to moderate its crackdown on Catalan democracy and come to the negotiating table.
And from our own Scottish perspective, I will say for the 100th time… We need to Scottish Sovereignty formally recognised as a legitimate thing, so we have leverage to contest the legitimacy of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty. By rights that recognition should be a formality, but I honestly do not understand why we prevaricate. Get it in the back of the net!!!
What a loser. Printing rubbish.
Its clearly no longer about money now though, UK msm merciless stamping on and out Scottish democracy.
Filthy rich Scottish owner of say the Courier has more money than Davy Crockett and he won’t mind a loss. They can probably write it off against their piddly wee UK tax bills.
Owners of all UK press in Scotland are clearly prepared to lose money to kill off nation state Scotland, ratings fall, ad revenue, all of it shrinking like a toryboy’s testies at the site of a Hands off our Parliament placard.
Master Severin of The Graun’s The Guardian has a very neat no tax “trust” loophole, where all the mullah they make goes in to er, a “trust.”
And then it goes into their juicy pensions? As long as Master Severin can end Scotland voting SNP, what progressive liberal non nat The Graun decides is bad, v v bad.
All about the shyste, money no object. Which is ofcourse why the beeb gimp network is shoveling mountains of cash in to local rags, for democracy n shit.
Either way, the tax dodger billionaires and their colleagues in the beeb gimp zone, are prepared to lose a lot of money to bring Scottish democracy to an end, if they can just get a red or blue tory First Minister in.
We just have to be accept that this is how power is wielded UKOK toryboy style, to end Scottish democracy. Their massed ranks of liggers, just like Master Severin, will do it too, won’t they:D
If people act within the Law there is less chance arrest warrants will be issued. Including Catalonia politicians. They make the Law and broke the Law. In many countries they go to prison. Not in Britain. One of the only ones. The majority in Catalonia did not vote for Independence. They knew what would happen they did not care. 2Million out of 7.5Million is not a majority. Ever. The EU us supporting Democracy in Spain and elsewhere.
Excluding people who teach their dogs little tricks for nuisance. With minimum of Defence.
Putin is one of the best leaders in the world. One of the best world Statesman ever. Since 1990’s he has supported self determination and democracy in the world. Including in the Russian Confederation. Bringing self determination, democracy and freedom. Trying to bring peace and properity in the world. Reduced poverty in Russia 50%. No wonder the Russia people support, respect and vote for him. One of the most popular leaders in the world. Perestroika and Glasnost – Gorbachev. The West should be helping Russia not putting on irrational sanctions.
The Arms Race in the 1970’s, 1980’s was bankrupting Russia and the US. They had to come to arms agreement. The West is still threatening Russia borders with NATO troops stationed on Russian borders.
Scotland’s traditional media, the National excepted, is blatantly anti-Scottish. They don’t care about lying about Scotland; they gleefully do down Scotland at every opportunity. To hell with the lot of them.
While the people are in the right and wrong business
Governments use the legal and illegal business to condemn the actions of others using the same business they use
And there are others who say it’s none of our business
What a business
Ken500 when people read the pish you spout about Catalonia, it makes them question everything else you say, And you are talking nonsense about Catalonia. So you reckon that new born babies and the insane can vote? so Rajoy is has a legit government then ?population of Spain 46.5 million, number of votes for Rajoy’s party 7.94 million, 24.279 million turnout. thats you now in the same category as Rock Et al, just browse past your idiotic rantings.
o/t
For folk interested in the legal context of this story (link to bbc.co.uk …), the decision on Ponsati’s extradition under the EAW is covered under Part 1 of the 2003 Act
link to twitter.com
o/t
For folk interested in the legal context of this story
And once again, beeb gimpery means not actually saying what Spanish criminal offence those Spaniards now be arrested in Scotland and Germany, with international arrest warrants, are accused of having committed.
Funny that.
What does Peat Warrior say?
Peat Warrior links to this,
link to legislation.gov.uk
Cant see anything that places UK judges under any obligation to take the time to ask the Spanish gov/courts for example, what exactly the accused offences are.
Funny that.
If the Spaniards in Scotland and Germany have not committed a UK/German/EU crime, why are the cops arresting them?
The Guardian is begging folk for £. When they have £1Billion in reserve. The only paper of any Independence of editorial. Still subject to Westminster unionist manic control. Cameron/Clegg the crooks who caused the mess, illegally put the robocops in to wreck the mail room and threaten the Editor with jail. He was sidelined and a new Editor was appointed. They probably got their own back exposing the Westminster corruption. English council election 3rd May. That might put the cat among the pigeons. The rats in the sack.
Statement re Catalonia
link to twitter.com
not up on Scotgov website yet
@Legerwood says: 25 March, 2018 at 3:38 pm:
“No we are not. We might be arrested but the matter has to go to the Court in the place where you are arrested and the arrest warrant tested by the Court to see if it complies with the law governing extradition under such a warrant and, at the same time, give the person who is the subject of the warrant, a chance to mount a defence against the extradition.
Nope! Not true. The law of the UK allows them to have a person taken off the street, (or wherever), and put in jail for a maximum period of 28 days under their ant-terrorism laws. However, the abuse does not stop there for the person in jail can then be arrested and remain in jail under remand.
They can also be deported as an alien. There are children, born in Scotland, who have been deported to countries they had never before set foot in.
Anyway I can see Police Scotland’s problem. They have no option but to comply with a European Arrest Warrant and carry out the arrest.
In Scotland the police do not decide who is, or is not to be accused of a crime. The Procurators Fiscal do that job. And the Procurators Fiscal do not judge the person for that is the decision of the courts.
Thus, the police must obey the law and so must the Procurators Fiscal. It will thus be the legal task of the judge to decide if the European Arrest Warrant is valid or not. As it is issued by the Spanish courts it will, on face value, be legally issued but there are several ways a Scottish Judge could, and we must hope will, prevent the extradition.
For example, like the cases of those claimed by the UK Foreign Office to be illegal to be deported, the Scottish Judge can rule the person is likely to suffer torture or execution if extradited. They can also refuse the extradition if they rule that the person would be a political prisoner or likely not to get a fair trial.
Unfortunately, but true, Police Scotland must carry out the arrest but they need not hand the victim over directly to the foreign country police nor do they need to bang the victim up in a Scottish police cell.
They can release the person on nominal bail to appear before a Scottish Judge, and under Scots law, the accused has right of appeal.
So it may be a bit soon to be shouting, “Foul”, at Police Scotland or indeed at the Procurators Fiscal and the Judiciary.
EU extradition warrants are quite legitimate.
They lost the vote. Can’t you count loser. They did not get the necessary majority. There was not even a legitimate vote supported by the majority. All the pish does not make it right. Away and learn to count . If there is support for democracy. Get lost loser. They illegally, knowingly declared UDI knowing the consequence. More fool them. The lot of Spanish politicians are total criminals. Defrauding other EU citizens. The majority in Catalonia did not vote for it. Get over it.
Rajoy Party is in a coalition. He is on a shoggly peg as well. Don’t let the facts get in the way. Eh. Plus 1million in Catalonia are not registered to vote. Or are left off the register. They did not vote? EU citizens residents?
O/T compare the state of these two news reports in the MSM today
link to bbc.co.uk
link to dailymail.co.uk
– compare and contrast (5pts)
Write an essay titled “The Lying Edit” on the topic of propaganda by emission.
They can’t leave it alone. Every. Fucking. Time.
What to know how utterly sh*te the ‘UK’ mainstream media is?? Today the democratically elected former president of Catalunya was arrested in a European nation, for extradition to the fascist Spanish state, purely because of his political views. What is the main story on both BBC and SKY news? Some Australian guy cheated at cricket.
Seriously?? FFS.
Anything, but actually cover REAL news. I frankly could not give a flying **** about cricket, it is an irrelevancy in Scotland.
In Glasgow we used to have tower blocks full of people who had been given refuge because they were subject to persecution on grounds of race,religion,political affiliation and every other reason.
Apparently asylum was not considered for countries within the EU as it was believed that they would be civilised enough to have these conditions anyway.
Joke eh?
Lots like many voters are of the Spanish voting register. 24Million voters? Low turnout. Or just apathy. Or some poor PR system? Putting people off voting. The Spanish definitely despise their politicans and police. No wonder.
Genuine question here RN. Why is it that some folk think George Orwell was some kind of authoritative expert on nationalism and patriotism?
link to bev.berkeley.edu
emission -> omission
I had this image of “farts from the Devil’s behind” as I typed.
“I have thought, why have the Scots got it and we don’t?”
Will someone explain to BBC news presenter George Alagiah that its because England keeps voting fcuking tory. And all of that may well down to one of the most corrupt public broadcasters in the west, the one he works for.
Actually BBC is the most tory corrupt public broadcasters anywhere, east and west.
No point in pussy footing around, beeb gimp wise.
Its just like how Murdoch’s now deceased Sunday Times er, columnist AA Gill died, of a cancer, that the NHS, couldnt afford to treat. Same NHS AA Gill’s employer uncle Rupert’s press endlessly assault for being a waste of time and money.
Its a lot like if Jeremy Clarkson got run over by a Lambo, driven by Nige Farage.
Aangirfan, writing a pretty derogatory thread on the FM and the SNP. It’s strewn with lies and misinformation.
My comment wasn’t allowed probably because I pointed this out.
link to aanirfan.blogspot.co.uk
From the Guardian – article on Catalan politicians and European Arrest Warrants. Very much worth a read. Covers the Professor’s situation in Scotland too.
link to archive.is
Today on the BBC apparently, a bunch of yuppie cricketers playing with their balls, is more important than an all out attack on democracy by a rogue European state!
@ken500
You support Putin who is an affront to democracy.
You support First Past the Post which is an affront to demcracy.
You support what is going on in Catalonia which is an affront to demcracy.
I think you have to have a major rethink on your position on things. Your positioning is more akin to Unionism.
I think you have to have a major rethink on your position on things. Your positioning is more akin to Unionism.
Everyone is entitled to have very different opinions, even Scots YES voters George.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Robert Peffers @ 4.46pm
Your response to my post @ 3.38 conflates two different issues.
I was quite clear in my post, both in the specific quote from your post @ 3.03 that I copied into my post and in my response to it, that the subject was European Arrest Warrants and the process that is triggered when one is served.
You appear to have gone off at a tangent onto anti-terrorism laws in the UK before returning to the subject of the European Arrest Warrant and saying, albeit long windedly, exactly the same as I said about the process to be followed but more concisely.
Concerning the unfortunate Clara Ponsati, on the lam … given the scottish cops incredible ability to “not bother” with things “they canny be bothered with” … could someone not tell them that she is
– a witness at a road accident
She will serve her residence in peace.
Andy B : aangirfan has been dodgy for a long time, probably when the domain was changed http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk to aanirfan.blogspot.co.uk
– note the missing “g” – they could have been run by entirely different people.
SNP a “spooky gang” and Nicola “selling out independence” – if you fall for that you are gullible – send me your credit card details and I’ll sell you true enlightenment!
Brian McHugh says:
25 March, 2018 at 5:32 pm
Today on the BBC apparently, a bunch of yuppie cricketers playing with their balls, is more important than an all out attack on democracy by a rogue European state!
And cricket is a small minority English game, in England, a bit like bowls and tiddlywinks.
Why the BBC props up cricket so much? well maybe because its so very Englishy. And if it does die out, in England, what’s next, fox torture, sorry fox hunting?
link to theguardian.com
Breeks @ 4.01 pm
Excellent post.
@Legerwood says: 25 March, 2018 at 5:45 pm:
“Your response to my post @ 3.38 conflates two different issues.”
No it does not.
You quoted this:-“I agree. So long as we’re in the EU every single one of us is subject to arrest, detention and deportation at the whim of any member state. All that’s required is a European Arrest Warrant with your name on it.”
I disagreed with it. I posted that everyone is also subject to UK terrorism and illegal immigrant charges and in the first instance is subject to being held for 28 days on the say so of anyone claiming we are a terrorist. The second being that the Foreign office can deport any of us by claiming we are illegal immigrants.
Furthermore, on an open forum you were not just speaking to me you were speaking to the forum and I was not only speaking to you but to the forum. That is, Wings is a forum, not an exchange of e-mails.
Legerwood says:
25 March, 2018 at 5:57 pm
Breeks @ 4.01 pm
Excellent post.
But why, if as Breeks suggests, can’t the EU do anything much against Spain, considering how the EU has gone after various other states, with sanctions, around the planet?
link to sanctionsmap.eu
Does EU membership provide immunity from EU sanction?
Dicey and the Rule of Law is but a faint memory but I do recall the late Professor McCormick throwing into a Jurisprudece lecture the virtues or otherwise of the Rule of Law in Nazi Germany. We were sent away to mull over that thought. I must dig up my notes to see the sequel.
It will be very interesting to see how Germany responds to their warrant given the precedent of Hitler handing over a previous Catalan President to Franco who had him immediately murdered.
For both fish and foul (sic) I think Independence on the Norwegian model is becoming my preference.
For both fish and foul (sic) I think Independence on the Norwegian model is becoming my preference.
We could be looking at similar Spain style imprisonment here, of political opponents. If Westminster refuse to allow indyref2 and lets face it, Teresa already has informally, can SNP MP’s be arrested and jailed with UK gov issuing arrest EU wide warrants etc?
If UK gov can’t do this, why can Spain’s government and if UK gov cant do this in UK law, why is Spain via the Scots police, able to enforce their arrest warrants in Scotland?
Is it just basic politics?
Teresa arresting any Scottish MP and MSP would be an electoral disaster for planet toryboy in Scotland. But is that the only protection, political games?
Puigdemont arrest, Isnt that something the wicked Hitlerite, anti-democratic Vladimir Putin government is supposed to do?
Note that tampering with your balls according, to the state megaphone, is a much more serious issue.
I remember years ago the Ayrshire cops told, with a straight face, the BBC reporter that they would be opening
– an investigation into CIA “torture” flights from Prestwick airport
(all those white gulfstream IVs with no markings)
– I’ve always been curious as to what happened – did they “huckle the bastards” – did they “steam intae” Langley, Virginia? Perhaps legally, they would have had the right but … “facts on the ground” … and all that – like Charles Hawtrey calling Mike Tyson a “punkass bitch” – it’s not going to happen.
I suppose what I am getting at is that : Law follows Power – not the other way, and there’s been a lot of pedantry and legalistic arguments on the site recently. So what if you have the “legal right” if you lack the power to exercise it?
Tony Robinson proved that lizzie battenberg teacake saxe-coburg-gotha is NOT the true monarch of the UK a few years ago (- it’s an aussie bloke who is the true king) – she sits there still, no one having the -power- to remove her.
If the UN security council recognised Scotland as an independent nation then that’s all it would take, and by UNSC, I really mean America. Don’t ask for favours from the English, get in with the yanks and the EU, who by now must loathe the tory shits they have been negotiating with. If we have “honners” fae USA, EU – even China and Russia – what will the rump colonel blimp empire do about it.
FWIW – I too hate cricket and “ball tampering” is a private matter between a man and his internet.
Like most of you on here, I am absolutely ragin about the disgusting treatment of Professor Ponsati and the violation of her human rights. This has gone too far. She is one of us. It has been building up for some time – remember how we felt when the first hard-working, Scottish-loving “foreigner” was deported by the British state. Then another one and another. And now a professor because of her politics. Who’s next? This is an absolute scandal.
If enough of us get so angry, and it reaches a tipping point, organised civil disobedience is next. Not sure what form it will take – perhaps forming human shields around those people vicitimised by the establishment.
People have had enough. This could turn nasty if they continue to trample all over us. Remember the poll tax? All it needs is another Tommy Sheridan to appear and people will rally round.
Off topic (but it’s all connected):
Teresa May seems to have managed to get the EU to back her attack on Russia. Quite a coup, considering the climate a few days ago.
The big question that needs answered is:
What did May promise in order to get the EU to back her?
What did May promise in order to get the EU to back her?
Dinner date with Colonel Ruth? oh no that was the Russians.
@heedtracker
“Does EU membership provide immunity from EU sanction?”
It would appear that it does. Also, contrary to what some contributors here appear to believe, it obliges member states to arrest and deport any individual on demand. Any involvement on the part of a judge can be equated to that of a rubber stamp.
Why else is Julian Assange still holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy?
Why else is Julian Assange still holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy?
He’s an interesting example. Is the Swedes or the US that want him? US eventually probably.
If just one of our noble and honest UKOK meeja could say what legal right the Spanish government has to imprison Catalan’s elected reps…
But then Gibraltar is forever England.
@ALAM
“Any involvement on the part of a judge can be equated to that of a rubber stamp.”
I believe you are incorrect there, Legerwood posted an FOI on the last thread that shows how an EAU has been used in Scotland with figures since 2017.
link to copfs.gov.uk
This shows clearly that between 2011 and 2016 there have been 541 proceedings in a Scottish court of a EAW and of these 367 have resulted in an extradition.
Doesn’t look like a rubber stamp to me when less than 70% of those appearing in court were actually extradited.
Same goes for the earlier arrest warrant issued by Spain in Belgium against Puigdemont and the others there with him including Prof. Ponsati, the Spanish government withdrew that warrant when it looked like the Belgian courts were going to throw it out and before they could make a decision.
Putting my neck on the line I’ll say now that I believe no Scottish court will extradite someone to another state for their political beliefs.
Figures since 2011 not 2017, another daft typo.
@Thepnr
I hope I’m wrong and you’re right.
PictAtRandom,
There’s nothing weasily about anti-fascist alliances. ‘Shared values’ doesn’t mean ‘middle-ground’. Anti-fascism is a founding principle of European unity.
Human rights are paramount, economic considerations are dispensable in law by comparison.
ken500
worrying about you. Simple fact The Catalonians are being sought by a right wing regime because they won an election. This is the dangerous road we are all heading down. right wing governments slowly taking peoples rights away including nations. Ask the 62% who have less rights than a few right wing DUP’s.
Maybe we should organise another #HOOP event – Hands Off Our Ponsati! ,,, and those shields from the Scots Parly HOOP would come in handy if the Police tried to drag her away!
heedtracker @ 6.12 pm
“”Does EU membership provide immunity from EU sanction?””
No EU membership does not provide immunity from EU sanctions but the circumstances and procedure to be followed to enact such sanctions are set out in detail and cannot be enacted on a whim.
Moves have been made to initiate sanctions against Poland because it is thought to be breaching EU standards because of some of the changes it has made to its laws and courts.
link to independent.co.uk
It is not, however, an overnight process and even to get to this point where sanctions are being considered has taken quite a time. Taking it further down the road to implement sanctions will require the individual members to decide whether Poland is violating EU standards. This ruling to take effect will require 22 out of the 28 member states to back the implementation of sanctions.
When a country is not a member then the bar for imposing sanctions is set lower, and hence more speedily applied, than if they are members. Membership of the club gives some protection but does not give immunity from sanctions.
Christina McKelvie will be organising a fundraiser for Prof. Ponsati, per Tricia Marwick on Twitter. I expect when it starts someone will report it on Wings.
These politicians never won a vote on a Referendum to hold a referendum. Then went ahead and had the illegal,referendum. They never won it. They have taken away the Catalonia/Spanish people’s rights. Then declared UDI. They knew what they were doing was punishable by prison and they still went ahead. They are thwarting Democracy by total non representation of the people.
Putin is one of the best leaders in the world. One if the greatest Statemen ever. He has supported more democracy, self determination and freedom than any leader. Relinquished control. To 150million people (Total 300 million people) Since 1990’s Putin has decreased poverty in Russia by 50%. An amazing achievement. Brought peace, equality and prosperity to the people/region, . He is an extremely popular leader. He has amazing support in Russia. The Russia Confederstion . population has fallen 150Million. Since the 1990’s Russia had relinquished control, Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Putin.
Spain and Russia are more democratic than the UK.
More fool them. Meddling in others countries business. Will decrease support for Independence. They are out of their constituent concern. Pointless and provocative.
‘But then Gibraltar is forever England.’
Along with Scotland. It’s as if history is frozen for some, fluid for others.
If progressive politics is successfully demonised against people’s better judgement, by legal obfuscation and conservatism – nothing will ever change for the better.
North east fishermen split after Michael Goves eye on the prize speech in which he warned of SNP opportunism by using fishermens anger in their next referendum campaign
Right out of the Jungle Book Michael Gove told the fisherment to *Trussst in meee and you’ll seee*
STV news hurriedly rushed on a representative of the North east fishermen to reject any idea that there was dissention within the fishermens ranks
Which is a lie by the way, the cracks are showing and how many times do you allow yourself to be made a fool of and just because you’re a Tory they think you’ll keep voting for them, damn insulting if you ask me, and if they do it again they’re just plain stupid and deserve everything they’re going to get
Calum Steele says *paraphrasing* This is nothing to do with the POLIS this is a Crown office directive
So folk who think this is something the SNP can do something about should now consider themselves Telt
Robert Peffers @ 6.06 pm From your post:
“”Furthermore, on an open forum you were not just speaking to me you were speaking to the forum and I was not only speaking to you but to the forum. That is, Wings is a forum, not an exchange of e-mails.””
I am very well aware that it is an open forum which is why, when I post something in response to something posted by someone else I reference that by putting the name and time of the poster and, if appropriate, a quotation from the post which has given rise to my comment/correction as I did in my post at 3.38pm Thus allowing people who read the post to follow the point being made by me and it’s context because all posts have a wider audience than just the named person in the post and as such should help people to follow what is being said and how the responses fit into the overall context.
Legerwood says:
25 March, 2018 at 7:43 pm
heedtracker
Thanks. Other side of that is how extremely Poland gov bad, top EU people like Guy Verhofstadt are. Whereas they a pretty mute on the Spanish gov conduct with Catalan elected reps.
The world’s watching too.
link to timesofisrael.com
Effijy,
“It really just proves that it is the owners of these newspapers
who call the tune. Not the Editor, not the Journalists, and certainly not public opinion.”
As is the case with the fake “independence supporting” The National.
Its owners don’t support independence, their only purpose is to milk gullible independence supporters.
The moment they think The National might help the independence cause, they will shut it down and blame independence supporters for not buying enough of them.
“the paper sold over 80,000 copies a day (now just 38,000)”
For comparison, the fake “independence supporting” The National sells 8,000 copies a day.
Thanks for the earlier links @Nana they clarified a few things for me. Got some right got some wrong.
The process by which an EAW arrived in Scotland is unclear,
the charge is unclear, but that it did arrive and the polis are duty bound to serve it seems evident enough. No specific requirement for custody and the beak has plenty of leeway to reject the extradition when it’s laid out. In fact, they’d need to be really wanting to find a reason to extradite for it to happen I’d venture.
What do I know though.
For comparison, the fake “independence supporting” The National sells 8,000 copies a day.
Nice and a comment from the fake YES vote too!
How’s it hanging indy2kintersRock:D
link to youtube.com
rock — fake in all languages. Remember were on bst just now so finish earlier.
I see The National Newspaper has an interesting interview with Professor Clara Ponsati;
link to thenational.scot
Good to see at least one media outlet ( The National) covering Catalonian events, and the brutal Spanish behaviour.
It really is ridiculous, that Spain is now riding roughshod over democracy, and using the European arrest warrant (designed for terrorists), to exert its fascist ways. Just a few years ago, it would be hard to believe how rapidly Spain has drifted back into fascism.
Of course mass murder of the Catalan people by the Guardia civil in Spain, during the Franco fascist dictatorship, did nothing to dampen the desired for catalan independence, so neither will all of this. And that is the point. The Spanish fascist, Rajoy, is deluded to think this will solve the problem.
Time for Spain and its politicians to grow up, and realise ignoring the democratic wishes of Catalunya will achieve nothing, except inflict further damage to Spain’s now very tarnished reputation. The question needs asked, since we have all seen the brutality of the Spanish police against unarmed civilians, can tourists to Spain really feel safe anymore when visiting Spain?.
Maybe time for Spain to drag itself back into the 21st century, before it is too late.
Please clarify. I understood the Queen already has the alternative title in Scotland of Elizabeth, Queen of Scots. Is this so?
TBH .. I really couldn’t give a toss for any of the UK national newspapers. They only serve to serve themselves.
The problem they have with Scotland at the moment is that the circle cannot be squared. They’re sales are falling, and yet, to try and jump on the indy-wagon would mean the death of the UK. Reminds me of the end scene from ‘The Italian Job’ with Michael Caine. ‘Hold on lads, I have a plan!’ And yet, you know that either option is a complete loser.
Well, that’s where the Sun, the Record, the Guardian, the Times, the Express and the Mail find themselves today in Scotland. You can just hear one of the sub-editors saying to the chief-editor in a major meeting saying ‘…Hold on lads, I have a plan! I know how to solve our sales problem! See Scottish independence ..well …’
Aamar Arwar is instructed to defend Clara Ponsanti
Habib Steele says:
25 March, 2018 at 9:09 pm
Please clarify. I understood the Queen already has the alternative title in Scotland of Elizabeth, Queen of Scots. Is this so?”
Who cares. As long as Brenda stays the most filthy rich woman in the world, who flaunts her staggering riches in our faces day after UKOK day, while her massed ranks of beeb gimps angrily demand we all worship our queen as a goddess, at her fantastically rich feet, that’s all that matters, in teamGB.
Habib Steele at 909pm,
Certainly, I watched Alex Salmond address her as such ( Elizabeth I, Queen of Scots) to her face at the opening of Scots parliament.
Regardless I have a problem with Lizzie, too much emphasis on English ceremony and behaviour, and the worst things of all, she has NEVER had the crown of Scotland on her head. The thing you see her wearing at the opening of the English parliament in Westminster, is the English crown (but they now call it the ‘uk’ crown).
Robert Peffers says:
25 March, 2018 at 1:22 pm
“If Germany has thrown in its lot with Spain they are, between them, signing the death warrant of the European Union and killing it off.”
“RIP the European Union, for except for now lying down, you are now declaring yourself dead.”
So the “dead” European Union won’t be here in a “flash” when Scotland tries to hold an illegal independence referendum?
Robert Peffers (7th April 2017 – “Unionist Manifesto Update”):
“Just let them try and NOT respect the results. The EU and UN would be on it like a flash as the Westminster Government has signed up to both of their treaties that specifically have written into them the human right of Self Determination.”
Rock (7th April 2017 – “Unionist Manifesto Update”):
“I can say with 100% confidence that the EU and UN would do absolutely nothing that would make us independent in such a scenario.
The unionists would boycott a referendum held without a section 30 order and we would almost certainly not get 50%+1 of the eligible electorate to vote Yes.
No one in their right mind wants to end up in such a scenario.”
Before there is a flood of posters claiming that Scotland can hold an independence referendum whenever it wants to, the fact is that it has never yet done so without Westminster’s approval.
You can only prove me wrong if and when it does.
Hi Ken500.
Has someone hacked your username and email address?
The result in the October 2017 Catalonia independence referendum, on a turnout of 43% was 92% yes and 8% no to independence.
The referendum was passed by the Parliament of Catalonia as the Law on the Referendum on Self-determination of Catalonia and called by the Generalitat de Catalunya. The Spanish government declared it illegal, in September 2017.
WHO decides when a referendum and/or its result is legitimate? The nation where it is held, or a neighbouring nation, who asserts power?
Following your logic, is there any point in holding indyref2, if the UK government can just reject the result?
link to en.wikipedia.org
Starting to look worse tonight in Barcelona if you support democracy.
link to twitter.com
Glad to hear German politicians at last waking up to Spain.
Many demanding his release.
UPDATE
link to catalannews.com
I have wondered over the past couple of weeks why no-one is talking about GIbraltar any more. If there is a hard Brexit, it would mean trade barriers between Spain and the Rock. So I read a few articles, including this:
link to independent.co.uk
“The obvious answer [to the Gibraltar problem] is to give Gibraltar membership of the customs union and single market by special protocol… But to get even that, Theresa May needs Spain to lift its veto. She would have to offer something bilaterally to Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, maybe a concession on sovereignty or governance”.
Or fishing rights?
Spanish PM Rajoy said last week Spain will agree a deal with UK on Gibraltar “over the next few months”. Superb negotiating tactic, if you’re Spanish. Leave talks until the last minute. Spain has a veto on the entire UK withdrawal agreement. UK could be painted into a corner by Spain on pretty much anything the Spanish want.
There’s someone on Twitter rants on about Catalonia in a similar manner to Ken500, continually trying to state that Catalonia just has to put up with whatever sh*t Spain throws at it.
Whether it’s Ken in another guise, or someone wholly different, I think it’s a disgraceful attitude in both cases because the point in Spain has behaved tyrannously in refusing to allow the Catalonians to test the public will around the question of independence properly.
I don’t know what the EU hoped to achieve by ignoring the situation between Catalonia and Spain over the last 5 months. Were they hoping that if they just ignored it then it would all quietly go away and not bother them anymore?
No matter the reason for their silence some at least must have know that without encouraging dialogue between the two parties it could only eventually escalate into something worse.
That appears to be the start of what is happening now, Spain has been emboldened by the silence of the EU to crack down ever harder. Many more innocent Catalans are likely to end up in jail without trial and many more are likely to be injured on the streets by heavy handed Spanish police.
The EU can stop this and they have a duty to do so, if they do nothing I will have lost what little respect I still had for them. No doubt many others will have too.
BBC and STV lead on cricket balls and Jeremy Corbyn while the shame of The EU ignores fascism in Spain. Franco is not dead!
Rock (1st October 2017– “Homage To Catalonia”):
“Anyone seriously believe the EU will come to Scotland’s rescue when the northern British region is crushed by the UK state?”
RT pretty good on fascist Spain. Then again, Vlad’s imprisoned his own opposition, to say the least.
link to youtube.com
Vlad the jailer. He’s famous for murdering journalists too.
link to bbc.co.uk
Just walk over people’s rights. They did not win the vote for having a Referendum or the Referendum in Catalonia. What do they have to endure in Spain? They have the wealthiest standard of living in Spain, They are the most advantaged in Spain. They are the wealthiest in Spain.4 months holidays a year. Sunshine,good lifestyle and food. Virtual autonomy. Not full fiscal. They cannot test the will around Independence because the majority in Catalonia did not vote for it. Thst is the point. They did not want it. Some dodgy practices going on. In the Catalonia eldctoral system. Arranged by the Catalonian Gov.
If they want change. There are other ways to go about it, E.g appeal to the ECHR to have a legal Indy Ref. They can prove a case for it. Then challenge the Spanish Gov who would gave to abide by the judgement to have one. (like Scotland did the precedent is there). Or negotiated change with other Parties to change the Constitution. Catalonia is one of the wealthiest provinces Spain. Some are damaging their own economy.
If some people keep on wanting to get involved in other countries Constitution they will damage the Scottish Independence movement. Spain is not facist. That is just not true. . It is a centre left. Like most countries in the EU. That is an insult to all of Catalonia /Spain. Since 1978 it is a democracy. New democracy with problems that need sorted out. It depends on the way to go,about it. All the politicians are suspect and despise in Catalonia/Spain. Hard to get a compromise. Just declaring UDI is not the most successful way to go about it. Anyone can argue fir hours bytbthst is not the way to go about things without the major support of the people. They should have had a vote on declaring UDI or put it in a manifesto.
Macart says:
25 March, 2018 at 9:53 pm
UPDATE…
Good for Germany! Genuinely delighted.
And Thepnr, I don’t think the EU has been ignoring Catalonia, but is extremely limited in what it can actually do. With its written Constitution, Spain holds all the best cards, but Europe will do what it can. At least Spain is not getting all its own way, and that’s a start.
@Ken 500,
Lay off the drink for the rest of the night. You come on here telling us to deny what we can see with our own eyes and hear with our own ears.
@ken500
….what!!!
I knew that Belgium refused to deport Puigdemont but I’m
Only now aware that he entered Germany from Denmark.
How come Denmark wasn’t asked to deport him.
They are all EU countries?
@Ken500
“Spain is not facist. That is just not true. . It is a centre left. Like most countries in the EU.”
Instead of talking of Spain being facist let’s talk of the leader and the party he leads. Mariano Rajoy in his mid 20’s joined the right wing People’s Alliance which was created in 1976.
All the founders were Facists and served under Franco while 6 had been ministers under his dictatorship.
The seven founders were Manuel Fraga, Laureano López Rodó, Cruz Martínez Esteruelas (es), Federico Silva Muñoz (es), Gonzalo Fernández de la Mora, Licinio de la Fuente (es) and Enrique Thomas de Carranza (es). Out of the seven founders the first 6 had held cabinet-level offices during the dictatorship of Francisco Franco. The odd one, Thomas de Carranza, had also been part of the Francoist administration.[8] They became known as los siete magníficos (“The Magnificent Seven”).
link to en.wikipedia.org
That party then morphed into the People’s Party which Rajoy currently leads.
The People’s Alliance (Spanish: Alianza Popular (AP) was a post-Francoist electoral coalition, and later a conservative political party in Spain, founded in 1976 as federation of political associations.
Transformed into a party in 1977 and led by Manuel Fraga, it became the main conservative right-wing party in Spain. It was refounded as the People’s Party in 1989.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Rajoy done well for himself in becoming leader of a party founded by Facists and are currently acting like Facists in their treatment of Catalonia. Must have worked hard to get where he did.
Hi Ken500.
I don’t normally do ‘ad hominem’ posts but, really, you are testing our patience with your tendency, over the past day or three, to gibber P!$H.
Get a grip, man/woman!
The only way the EU can exist is if it doesn’t interfere in the affairs of its member states and respects their laws.This is what is happening here. It is obliged to act the way it has done. It is now up to the German court to interpret the EU warrant in the terms of the law in Germany.
Aamer Anwar talking about the defence of Clara Ponsati to Sky News.
link to twitter.com
Perhaps Puigdemont and colleagues should travel to every country in the EU that they know will thumb their nose at Spain by tossing the European Arrest Warrant to fuck.
This would send an unofficial message from the EU but would be loud and clear.
I don’t know if it would work in reality but it sounds feasible to me anyway.
@ Ken500
I’m reluctant to comment about the stance you are taking about Catalonia, because a few others are already doing so, and I don’t like to join in with what might look like ‘group think’, but surely you must know how the Catalans were attacked by police at polling stations and prevented from voting in other ways?
Ken500 that could just as easily have been written by a red and blue tory unionist, btl Wings over Catalan, about nation state Scotland.
Right down to the Labour socialist worker unionist in Scotland 2014, telling us working class Scots to stick with the English working class and together we’ll defeat the tories.
When though Labour socialist worker unionists? Soon.
Look at the rolling merciless BBC Scotland led UK msm character assassinations of all SNP MP’s and MSP’s. Our imperial masters are as ruthless as any fascist anywhere, its not fair, its not nice, but its how it works, in Spain and this farce union.
Or worse, try twitter following my Slovene girlfriend and the rest of his tory cabal in Scotland.
link to twitter.com
About Catalonia and fascist Spain, to a peep from any of them.
Some folk don’t do twitter or Facebook. They don’t pay taxes. But try people’s patience with a lot of abject nonsense. If you don’t like it don’t go on it. Just pass in by. Or get a life. Instead of following it like sheep. Not lookin up any reasesrch or references. Just following the regurgitated nonsense like gospel. Just because it is easier to jump on the bandwagon. No originality. Some folks are sick if it. It can actually make people ill. The sheer hassle is it, Banging the drum like the old mssonics.
Taking actions without any acknowledgement of the consequences. Then denying their part in it. Causing everyone else grief.
@Luigi says: 25 March, 2018 at 6:42 pm:
“Like most of you on here, I am absolutely ragin about the disgusting treatment of Professor Ponsati and the violation of her human rights.”
Whoa! There! Luigi. First of all the Good Professor has not had her Human rights violated … YET! Neither has ex-Catalan leader Puigdemont … YET!
Let’s not jump the gun until those human rights have been violated.
The EU arrest warrant is not too bad an idea in theory … as long as it isn’t abused by EU member states.
So here’s the thing. Sorry but it cannot be briefly described.
To comply with EU laws, that every member state is signed up to, Germany and Scotland have to play it clever and stay within the law or, technically they, and not Spain are acting illegally and Spain is acting legally but not morally.
The smart thing to do, and I hope Germany is smart enough and thing it ism they is to comply with EU law to the letter where there is no choice but to do so. Then use EU law cleverly where there is a choice.
So Germany is a full EU member state and has to arrest anyone who they are asked to by another EU state and Germany has done so. Here though is the clever bit – EU law was not drawn up by idiots and there are safeguards built into the law.
The arrest has to be made but the person arrested has to be brought before a German court and has to be given time to contact, and get a German legal expert, plus an EU law legal expert, and probably a Spanish expert. Then time to brief their legal team, search and get statements from witnesses, and not forgetting translaters. And so on and so on – just for a case to be prepared. This case could go on a long, long time.
The German courts could also delay matters as, like all legal systems, they are snowed under. Furthermore the German courts need not stuff the person into jail but just put them on nominal bail, and bail can take time to arrange too. Then there are built-in legal loopholes that the Spanish courts have to pass and the first one is that if German law doesn’t have the offences that Spain is wanting the arrested person charged with then the EU warrant nulls those offences.
Now do you get the likely happenings?
As another commenter has pointed out Scotland is not a member state – the United Kingdom is but the United Kingdom uses English law. So, f Scotland plays it clever too this whole EU warrant thing could be the best thing to happen for independence in decades.
Here’s why – The Treaty of Union stipulates that the two Kingdoms legal systems are forever independent and to date the mostly have been with Westminster systematically violating the treaty but, in regards to the EU, the EU accepted the United Kingdom as a member state but has treated it as if it were a unified country – which it is not. Now it will be forced into their consciousness.
So the first thing, as another Winger pointed out, is that now the EU is forced to consider the uniqueness of the United Kingdom and that is as a two partner member state with two independent legal systems. Thus Scotland can claim none of the Spanish charges apply as Scotland is not, per se, the Member State and so Scots law is nothing to do with the EU, Germany or Spain. Believe it or not, there is legally no such thing as United Kingdom Law and there cannot be. How can there be a United Kingdom law when both Kingdoms have independent legal systems? Westminster uses English law – right back to the Magna Carta that never applied to Scotland.
So how can EU law apply? This then brings up the point that the same must apply to England so if United Kingdom law doesn’t exist and the United Kingdom is the member state how can the UK comply with EU law when Westminster legislates under English law and even uses EVEL to enforce it?
In the end it concentrates EU parliamentary minds on the case I’ve been preaching for decades. The United Kingdom ended when Westminster brought in devolution and thus devolved English laws to three countries and ran things as the de facto parliament of the country of England, (with not a single member elected as members), while continuing to claim to be the United Kingdom parliament.
There’s going to be some great legal battles in the German and Scottish courts and the beauty of it all is that English law cannot be part of it and there is no actual UK law.
Aamer fucking Anwar.
Ken 500
Baa ba black sheep. Was he fascist too? You support physical attacks on voters , young and old. Just call yourself franco for short. No bandwagon here just a recognition of injustice.
You sound like a wee British little englander – sick of everything and everyone. Sad life you have
Rupert Murdoch’s plan to sell off parts of his media business is being thwarted by the Monopolies & Mergers Commission who are concerned that the reporting of news and current affairs would be compromised if Sky News was to be included in the sales bundle. The proposed solution is to require Sky News to operate as an independent entity.
The UK public are required by statute to purchase an annual TV license to watch/listen to BBC programming the cost of which is ever increasing.
Mindful of the Sky News situation there is surely merit in a proposal that the BBC un-bundle News and current affairs and offer it to the UK public as a pay-per-view/listen package to which members of the public could subscribe or not.
The resulting reduced license fee would be greatly welcomed and the BBC would conform with UK broadcasting policy namely avoidance of monopoly current affairs would be protected
2014 Ha Ha if you vote YES you’ll be out of the EU and all us Brits will laugh and you’ll be poor and we’ll be rich in the EU
2018 Ha Ha If you vote YES you’ll just want to be in the EU and all us Brits will laugh and you’ll be dominated by the EU
The Brits have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they have the intellect of budgies, they hear their masters cheep at them and they chirp right back *Who’s a silly arsehole who’s a silly arsehole*
And then they come on the internet where the world gets to judge the level of their genius and prove conclusively Brits are indeed less evolved than dolphins who actually have an excellent level of language skills and don’t bump into things all over the ocean whereas Brits *Who’s a silly arsehole who’s a silly arsehole*
They are consistant with it though
The old chestnut. Catalonia is Scotland. Scotland is Catalonia. Without qualification, Just a complete nonsense. Different, different, different. Fall into the unionist trap right away, Taken right over the side into the abyss. Then trying to backtrack on it. Some folk will go for it and it will misfire. It is only a matter of time. So much for unionists suckers. Not thinking it through. They can get on with their Independence movement. Scotland can get on with theirs. They are not related or intertwined. In any way shape or form. Different, different, different. Scotland will get tainted with the same brush, it is better to stay out of it, Or reap the backlash. Muddying the water. The constant unrelated comparisons. If people fall for it. Right into the unionists barrel.
Reluctant
Civil rights issue, leading civil rights lawyer? Seems an OK match to me.
Like a high profile lawyer would ever turn down the chance of a quick buck.
Ken500, what backlash though? Its extremely unlikely that Germany will simply hand over Carles Puigdemont, without court defence in Germany.
If even the most aggressive BBC propaganda is to be believed, Spain’s gov is 100% against nation state Scotland, Spain would never permit nation state Scotland’s EU application etc.
link to abcnews.go.com
Like a high profile lawyer would ever turn down the chance of a quick buck.
They like winning cases too.
heedtracker @ 8.20 pm
The world is indeed watching but the difficulty for the EU is getting 22 out of the 28 member states to back sanctions against Spain.
Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic and possibly 2 or 3 others acting out of self-interest would possibly take Spain’s side.
But in issuing these arrest warrants Spain may have slipped up because it is individual EU countries making individual decisions. Spain may just have handed them a way of expressing, via their courts and laws, their opinion of what is happening in Catalonia and Spain.
………
For general info. Here is a link to an interesting fact check on EAWs.
link to theconversation.com
Franco has been dead for 37 years. Although some people seem to want to resurrect him. Can’t think why? Spain has been a democracy for that time. A federation of autonomous equal provinces. Some more equal than others. Some more wealthier than others. It stayed out of the illegal,world wars. A wise decision? because of the consequences.
Unlike Scotland.
Watching a twitter spat between a Spanish guy and one of our
The Spanish guy says if Scotlands Sturgeon supports Catalonia then Spain will veto Scotland from entering the EU
Our guy says the Scottish people will make that decision in a referendum whereas you live in Facist Spain and won’t get a vote on that subject
I liked that
Rajoy is a nasty piece of work and his hands in the till PP are repugnant but they aren’t fascist. He leads a minority government, elected by proportional representation, and kept in power by a confidence and supply arrangement with another party. They could be removed at any time however the Spanish socialists abstained during the last no confidence motion.
Some chance of winning that one.
Just more palaver with Scotland involved in breaking EU Law. The EU Law which guarantees the right to self determination. Devolution and human rights in Scotland. Entwined in the Devolution settlement. Supporting and guaranteeing an IndyRef in Scotland and another one. People in Scotland fought for since 1928 and before. Rock that boat when you come to,it. Throwing the baby out with the bath water. All because there was no total support to Spanish/EU Law or Independence in Catalonia.
Davie Oga says:
26 March, 2018 at 12:32 am
Rajoy is a nasty piece of work and his hands in the till PP are repugnant but they aren’t fascist
They just do fascist stuff.
Why are we piddling around like this anyway, are the Spanish 21st century neo fascists or not?
It’s a lot like listening to English high tory voters, how nice they are, as they all vote for the living horror that is tory UK gov, over and over.
Exact same tory creep show that reached out to their great friend/arch enemy, Vlad Putin.
Look at them, our tory masters and their hack bootboys.
link to heraldscotland.com
link to telegraph.co.uk
archive is, out of order.
Maybe Spain should change to FPTP. Cut to the chase. Get rid of the 3rd rate rejects. It might bring a better outcome of higher value than voting for six? candidates. What a farce. Chaos.
Hi Ken500.
Your input is becoming increasingly surreal, as if it is being generated, randomly, in reaction to comments that have been posted before.
@heedtracker 12:21
Alfonso Dastis, Spain’s Foreign minister, already said last year Spain would no longer block or veto an EU entry for Scotland. Further, that Spain has agreed different parts of the UK can have bespoke Brexit deals (including Scotland)
See, he’s the honcho negotiating the Gibralter deal. Now Spain ostensibly had a ‘veto’ (not really) but Brexit is conditional on a bi-lateral agreement with Spain over Gibralter. Spain doesn’t want a hard border with Gibralter and neither do they. Anyway, Alfonso needs Givralter to have ‘Special status’ similar to othe EU countries colonies and city states like Monaco. (In EU to trade/movement – but no input) So Spain concedes Gibralter can have special status, therefore Scotland can.
How will it come about. Maybot will chuck Spain fishing and probably joint use of the Airport. Job done. Smiles all round. Or for Maybot, a rictus grin.
@Marker Post 9:55pm
I just noticed you already pointed out some of what I mentioned re: Gibralter.
… yawn … just woke up … lots of good comments … food for thought …
– this is too long, excuse the logorrhea, but WTF anyway –
Aamer Anwar is a fierce anti-establishment type of lawyer – getting your absolute-cunt-kicked-in by the cops outside the Queen Margaret Union in your student days, before the dawn of ubiquitous cctv will do that to you. A good guy in your corner – most lawyers that I have experienced have a deep aversion to doing any real work – to actually get in and FIGHT your case is not their priority – and I doubt he’s playing golf at Muirfield on a Sunday or rolling up his trouser leg any day of the week.
All analogies, the reasoning-by-which human beings love, become pernicious eventually.
– I do not know if Catalonia compares to Scotland in any way – nor do I accept that all indepedence movements are automatically good and right; in 2014 I heard about, for the first time ever, talk of “independence for shetland” – WTF is this astroturf shit-stirring I thought? And it was – hearing a little about it again these days, just as a new indyref becomes a possibility and it looks like there are MAJOR new oilfields west of shetland that the MSM is trying NOT to talk about (- this could make all economic arguments against independence, simply ridiculous.)
– If Govan declared UDI, calling itself “Northern Britain” for “whatever reason”(!) in the aftermath of Scottish Independence, I hope our riot cops would go in and kick the shit out of them, legally and democratically. What about the US confederacy – was that a just cause? Kosovo, Israel etc – indulge yourself with your own beauty contest, play favourites.
The catalans may have had a moral and legal right to do what they did (- and there is no doubt about their economic ability to make it work), but they had no one “at their back” to make it stick. Law and Power. Not the same. Popular protest, Facebook likes and Twitter retweets do not, in the end, amount to much. The EU, NATO, France and Germany do not want to know, and the UK is compromised by the Spanish over Gibraltar.
Ponsati’s arrest warrant leaves a bad taste though – one’s instinct is to “tell the fucking spics to get to fuck” – if I were the police chief I would put it out there, but under the bottom of the in-tray – and if anyone complained about delays, I would say
– we are having a LOT of trouble with NAZI PUGS at the moment – HATE crimes have to be prioritised – yes, we are having a lot of “incidents” and “altercations” at this time – your call is important to us … (4 hours of canned vivaldi)
There are sobering lessons here for us – the Catalan independence movement was mature, well-organised and integrated – and yet they couldn’t extricate themselves from Spain which is more or less, a third-rate “punk-ass” country, at least compared to the UK – what WE are dealing with is, in its deep state, the establishment, is the rump of the BRITISH EMPIRE – the largest the world has ever seen, one of the most ruthless, brutal and successful looting and murder operations of all time – rampaged across a quarter of the globe, lived for 300 years (- that Hitler greatly ADMIRED the British Empire tells you all you need to know – his fave film – Lives of a Bengal Lancer) – and our opponents have the consolidated knowledge of every damn dirty trick and strategem they ever pulled. These people are vicious and they don’t play fair – Scotland is their possession, so they think. Ever tried getting a bone from a dog? It’s much easier.
I think brexit will be a fucking shambles – so much so that a lot of people who voted tory will be experiencing the economic equivalent of a prison shower room bullyramming with a 20 inch glass encrusted dildo – it should be ripe for a new indyref, which is where we hit the “catalonia situation” – I think they will do everything they can to prevent it happening, or to make it somehow, illegitimate. We only got the last one because they thought they would win easily – it was never meant to be so close, and now, starting out near-even – would they dare take the chance, even with their “Machine” and SCL and Cambridge Analytica? They would like to turn the dogs on us (- and lock up the SNP) and we had a foretaste of that with the George Square Attack post-defeat in 2014 and the other week with the “Union Bears” – a threatening gang of street thugs, brown shirts on our streets, that our useless plods allowed a free run without any of the paperwork anyone else would need – this is a taste of what could happen; and if the UK govt has to impose martial law to “restore order”, then that works out fine for them. So, if “next time” comes – indyref2 – who will “have our back”?
Interesting BBC Radio 4 profile of Nigel Oakes – partner of Alexander Nix and founder of SCL -Cambridge Analytica’s parent company:
link to bbc.co.uk
More information about Oakes on Powerbase:
link to powerbase.info
Links
link to indyref2.scot
link to rosscolquhoun.com
link to thebutterflyrebellion.scot
link to autonomyscotland.org
link to businessforscotland.com
link to holyrood.com
link to welfareweekly.com
link to tompride.wordpress.com
Meddle in another country’s affairs it will be used against Scottish Independence cause. There is nothing surer. That is a fact. Can see the headlines now. Let others sort out their problems etc. They are well capable. No one wants people to go to prison. It is just counter productive but if Scotland (Scottish) Gov gets too involved that is counter productive too. The constant comparison that are not realistic will be used without a doubt against the Scottish Independence movement by Unionists and others. It could lose support because of an external situation, Thst is a worry. The situation is already escalating through Europe which is entirely different. Scotland has already got EU support under EU/International Law against Westminster breaking every Law in the book. Do not lose it. Make same mistake as Catalonia politicians Not honouring the Law or due process. It could be a disaster. The constant unwarranted comparison.
The UK nuclear regulator has raised concerns with EDF Energy over management failings that it warns could affect safety at the Hinkley Point C power station if left unaddressed, official documents reveal.
link to archive.is
link to chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co.uk
VOTE LEAVE AND CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA: A STENCH ENVELOPING DOWNING STREET AND THE CABINET’S HARD BREXITEERS
A stench enveloping Downing street and the cabinet’s hard brexiteers
link to byline.com
May scrambles to avoid UK being frozen out of EU satellite project
link to ft.com
Independence referendum probe: How Scots voters were targeted online will be investigated
link to archive.is
link to theredroar.com
link to irishtimes.com
link to forces.net
@Nana
Mornin’ Nana
Yeah, the vote leave/CA furore… that may run, but not entirely sure it’s going to change anything. What it will do is drive an even deeper wedge between leave, remain demographics. (shrugs)
Who knew?
Maybe one day a Tory will realise that ‘unity’ and ‘union’ doesn’t mean ‘do as I say’.
@Robert Peffers,
Sorry Robert but Professor Ponsati is living in St Andrews because she was under threat of arrest in Spain for very dubious charges. That is why she had to leave her own country.
I would say her human rights are very much being violated, then and still now.
If the was not the case ,she would have no defence.
@Ken 500,
If that is your road to freedom you can keep it.
I want a different road. I saw Nicola and a whole body of SNP MP’s criticising this move to arrest professor Ponsati. They travel the same road as me. Freedom is nothing if all you do with it is to emulate the politics that surpress ordinary people, just as it has done for centuries, I thought we wanted something better. This site is full of postings outlining that vision of Scotland.
If we have no honour to support truth and justice whilst everyone else prevaricates,we have nothing.
Good morning Macart
You are most likely correct. The establishment will get together as they always do and bury any evidence. Chilcot, Child abuse, Hillsborough, Orgreave, hacking scandal and on and on …………
How long did it take to obtain a warrant for the raid on Cambridge analytica, allowing plenty of time for a good clearout.
I’ve never seen such blatant corruption, government and media in it together. We have to get away from these people.
@ Robert Peffers 11.59 Thanks Robert some sanity reigns amongst a plethora of diatribe from the Trolls .
As you have laid out that is a Legal argument I would hope Aamur Arwar would put forward in the defence of Prof Carla Ponsanti , its been a long time since the Scottish Legal System had International attention ( Lockerbie Megrahi ) & hopefully people realise the differences between Scotland & the rUK/English law .
I’ll have to book a seat early as the Westminster Lawyers will in attendance . Tereza won’t like the spotlight being shone on Scotland lol .
Another round of great links for breakfast Nana! Thank you.
Just listening to a very Scottishy toryboy twit journo end to BBC r4 vote tory Today show, Nic Robinson’s balance is, him, Hugo Rifkind of the Times and Horatio Nelson of the Spectator.
Three toryboy gimps explain how election and referendum campaign spending in the UK is a dirty business but its all fine really, shock.
Great example of bbc gimp balance though. Hugo’s pater will be on later to kick the living shit out of anything at all that’s a threat to upper class teamGB.
It also takes a lot of private school mullah to become a Murdoch goon too.
Hugo’s wiki thingee says, Education: Emmanuel College, Cambridge, George Watson’s College, Loretto School.
Nothing but the poshest for uncle Rupert:D
@Nana
We’ve seen what passes for the teeth of the electoral commission only too frequently. It doesn’t matter a damn what they say and police involvement, whilst sounding awfy dramatic, again won’t change either the result or the damage wrought on societal attitudes.
That damage has already been done. Society, as I’ve said mibbies more than once or twice, is fractured along too many fault lines. One or two of those lines aren’t so much fractures as chasms. They did their job too well is the long and the short of it. They spent so much time dividing, subdividing, subdividing again and ruling, that they didn’t see the potential harm their fav strategy could cause until it was far too late. (shrugs)
Their choice.
It is not justice the majority of the people in Catalonia did not vote for it. That is all the Scottish Independence needs. They are already comparing irresponsibly that Nicola etc would get arrested etc. Not if it is conducted within and by the Law. It could put off people voting for Ihdependence in Scotland, ” It is like the Indy Ref being lost and Nicola etc declaring UDI. That is what these Catalonia politicians have done. Not carrying out the will of a majority of the people. Under the Constitution or otherwise. It is a minority in Catalonia who voted for it. 2million out of 6.5Million (1million under 18). Fall into the trap. Just like Brexit. Lose sight of the prize. On a total diversionary tactic. People will also notice the difference between Scottish and Spanish Law non jurisdiction and outside interference under Scottish/UK/EU and International Law,
In our time of Orwellianesque cyber trivialising of authentic democratic politics by means of parasitic ‘social mediums’, in all the cesspit stuff concerning man-infant Zuck and his narcissistic creation, data harvesting ‘narzy’ Analytica, Big Donald’s strumpetting etc the anti-democratic initiatives of the Spanish government, with which British intelligence has close links, stand out as the greatest threat.
It is yet early in the Catalan suppression process but the EU seems to be firmly on the side of Madrid. Is there a hardening of attitudes towards independence movements such as ours and Catalunya’s? Time will tell. However, current auguries read badly. State approved suppression and subversion are alive and very active. I do hope that the SNP and the wider national movement have the measure of the dark forces stacking up against them.
@ Robert Peffers at 11.59pm
Really interesting comment Robert, I’m not sure I understand it correctly or if my grasp of things mean I see it slightly differently, but
Scotland has signed up and aligned its laws to be part of the ECHR’s and EU legislation, I therefore think that – in this case – this will mean a complete by-pass of any appeal being heard in any court in England, any appeal (after due process and appeals in High Courts of Scotland) should go directly to ECJ, not pass go and not collect 200 Euros. (Although I’m very very sure that if a Scottish Court finds the warrant to be unlawful, WM will step in and try to move the next appeal to London).
Domestic cases – it can be argued – are slightly different, in that there are shared legislation between England and Scotland, and the Law Lords from both countries have inpute, therefore before being able to take an appeal to ECJ, all courts hear have to be exhausted. Which is not to say the English Establishment haven’t pulled a fast one by making the Court in England the ‘highest court in the land’.
I agree with you completely that it does highlight Scotland’s fully functioning, separate and aligned legal status, a very strong aspect in identifying ‘nation’ status, which is ‘unfortunately’ not as clear cut for Catalonia.
Its going to be interesting, I bet Spain is putting enormous pressure on WM just now, to step in and take over, but right now the ball is very clearly within Scotland’s legislative remit.
If it were to become an immigration matter, WM could step in.
Prayers for Catalonia, prayers for Scotland.
The crown worn by the Queen when she opens Parliament is the British Imperial State Crown, made in the 30’s its predecessor was dropped by the Duke of Argyll, when Victoria opened Parliament, flattened & rebuilt a few times. So not old but very valuable unlike the Scottish crown which is very old but the sum of its parts are nothing like as valuable.
Ottomanboi ‘I do hope that the SNP and the wider national movement have the measure of the dark forces stacking up against them.’
Scotland has survived Westminster policies of scorched earth, genocide, ethnic cleansing and New Labour, let them try to suppress us.
I saw that Torrance had an article in the Herald and the headline looked like classic above the line trolling. I am glad Stu’s reads this crap on our behalf because I am buggered if I am going to.
🙂
Ken500 gonna stop yer trolling or you on the opposite shift from the rock!
Macart says:
Never. It’s core to Tory beliefs. They are people who believe in division, there is always a ‘them’ and an ‘us’. They believe in hierarchy, betters and underlings. They believe they are in the entitled group, in all things.
It has been my life experience that even ordinary Tory voters live their lives in this framework.
They and definitely not all Jock Tamson’s Bairns.
And thus it is in the view of the UK. Their country England, their capital London, their party in government, has the right to dictate and the power to exercise that.
Is democracy and the law a strong enough counter which will allow Scotland to chose her own path? I sincerely hope so!
Stu’s?
My post has an interloping apostrophe :O
HandandShrimp
Well in precis, Torrance says SNP are bad, very very bad, hyperbole bad SNP and he also gives a lovely boost to a YES blogger who also says SNP are bad.
And his word of the day is, “hyperbole.”
Hyperbole this, hyperbole that, its all hyperbole on planet toryboy today.
Vote tory.
They are really really not going to sell Holyrood to Travelodge.
@heedtracker says: 26 March, 2018 at 12:21 am:
“If even the most aggressive BBC propaganda is to be believed, Spain’s gov is 100% against nation state Scotland, Spain would never permit nation state Scotland’s EU application etc.”
It is not true that Spain is 100% against Scottish independence and their official government statement is that the two situations are different and Spain will not veto a Scottish application for EU membership.
The plain truth is not hard to figure out – Spain’s fishing fleet is the largest in the EU and Spanish trawlers fish in Scotland’s territorial waters. Fishing is a large part of the Spanish economy. Thus, if Scotland is not in the EU, then Spain’s fishing fleet is thrown out of Scottish fishing grounds.
The same kind of thing can be figured out for the Spanish/Gibraltar situation. If Gibraltar is not part of the EU under the UK’s membership then Spain, as an EU member state, loses all EU freedoms in regard to Gibraltar.
Furthermore, Gibraltar itself doesn’t want the UK to leave the EU because then Gibraltar will lose the EU freedoms and be isolated from Spain, (and the rest of the EU). Gibraltar, though, does not want to be part of Spain.
They have a problem much more like that of Scotland by being under UK control.
Heedtracker
I have to say that anything I have read by Torrance has come across as immature self obsessed boles so I can see where his fascination comes from 🙂
Ken500 says:
26 March, 2018 at 8:06 am
Meddle in another country’s affairs it will be used against Scottish Independence cause.
Stuff gets used against us anyway. We know that from 2014.
“First we beg then we cower…”
@Louis B Argyll: Thanks for the reply. Sometimes I begin to get a bit het up.
O/T
Here’s the link for Alex’s show on lbc yesterday. I saw a tweet saying he was going to be talking to Mr Anwar. I’ve not had time to listen so can not confirm if he did.
You will need to subscribe in order to listen.
link to lbc.audioagain.com
link to politics.co.uk
@Bob Mack says: 26 March, 2018 at 8:22 am:
“Sorry Robert but Professor Ponsati is living in St Andrews because she was under threat of arrest in Spain for very dubious charges. That is why she had to leave her own country.”
None of which has anything whatsoever with how Scotland is dealing with her human rights in Scotland. The only abuse of her human rights, (to date), is by the Spanish Government. and you acknowledge that above:-
Scotland has not abused her human rights – quite the reverse as Scotland, at the moment, is sheltering her in Scotland and the FM of the SG is publically supporting her.
Interesting. A poll indicates English public would rather N Ireland was cut loose if it interfered with Brexit.
Another way out for usif we can disrupt Brexit.?
HandandShrimp says:
26 March, 2018 at 10:37 am
Heedtracker
Mr T’s phoned that one in, hopefully.
Usual blue tory yoon smear, usual toryboy lack of self awareness, Scotland didn’t “rise up” after the Brexit ref, we didn’t even rise up when Strong and Stable “vetoed” indyref2, its all over now for the vile seps, exclaims non hyperbolic Mr T.
Easy money.
Vote tory.
We’re really really not going to sell Holyrood to Tesco 24. Waitrose maybe.
Wikipedia
Catalan Independence Ref 2017 – facts catalogue.
The whole fishing industry in Scottish waters should have been using bigger nets. There would have been enough stocks for all. Even without quotas. Scottish negotiating representation would have ensured. Like Norway. The Scottish Fishing rep was a Home County Tory. A recipe for disaster. The fishing industry should have embarrassed better methods and conditions. Not been party to the decline in their own industry.
Each port under EU Law has a 12 mile exclusive limit. To land at their home port. There are no Spanish fishing boats landing on the NE coast. They might be on the West? The fish industry export their best catch/fish to France and Spain. 50% of fish sold in the UK is imported. From Norway, prawns from Thailand etc. Scottish fish and langoustines get exported to the EU and all over the world for premium prices. A large industry. With Scottish (SNP) rep the problems were being resolved. Bigger nets were being introduced paid for by EU grants and quotas were being increased as a result. Stocks were increasing Fishing industry qualifications college place established. Salmon fishing in the West exported all over the world.
French boats in the Channel half of the English Channel is in French waters. 12 mile exclusive (EU) home port limit.
Now Brexit disaster.
@Louis B
I agree the war of attrition against Scotland has been long. Scotland has survived.
However, there has been collateral damage, psychological as much as physical.
The fact that we have a sizable % who think that destruction was all worthwhile, that It brought ‘us’ together and together we’re better, is an indicator of how deep the psychological scarring goes.
It created a stick with nurse mentality. Maturity brings responsibility, the political culture of Unionism wishes to keep us in the dependency régime of the nursery
Scottish nationalism threatens the British state but currently lacks the wherewithall to do serious damage. The reverse is decidely not the case. The ‘North Briton’ mentality has much life in it.
Its various subversive agencies serve the colonial masters exceeding well.
Unless this psychological dependency factor is addressed I see the independence target continuing to be an erratically moving one.
We’re the fag end of the British empire. Having worked to create that imperium you would think we would be wise to all its perfidious tricks.
‘Should have embraced’ – predick text.
@Daisy Walker says: 26 March, 2018 at 9:50 am:
“Scotland has signed up and aligned its laws to be part of the ECHR’s and EU legislation, I therefore think that – in this case – this will mean a complete by-pass of any appeal being heard in any court in England”
The real point, Daisy Walker, is the European Warrant law itself. It states that if the request for extradition is based upon charges that do not exist under both states laws then the request for extradition fails.
So just for an example, If the European arrest warrant cited the charges were for the person’s criminal Trespass in the requesting state the warrant fails under Scots law. Because Scotland has no English style law of trespass. It would, though, be valid in England where there is a law of Trespass.
Likewise, if the warrant cited, “Blackmail”, it fails in Scotland but passes in England.
However, the main point I was attempting to highlight is that Westminster will not like these legal system differences open to the glare of international exposure. This because it highlights the fact the current United Kingdom is legally a two kingdom partnership of equally sovereign kingdoms but it is not even being run as a United Kingdom of two partners or even a four partner union of four equally sovereign countries.
It is exposing that the United Kingdom is not a United Kingdom partnership. It is not a four country partnership either. it is the country of England, (calling itself the United Kingdom), in total sovereign charge of four unequal countries and there isn’t even a legally elected parliament of the country of England.
Quite simply the country of England has taken over the Kingdom of Scotland and the countries of Wales and one part of the country of Ireland.
They do not want the whole World to see the extent of the perfidy of the modern Perfidious Albion for it destroys their whole right to exist as such.
Heedy and Peffers ( And their many names) are alive and kicking in BedSit Land.
Just checking the posts over the last 48 hours and you two have not stopped posting. Why don’t you come to an agreement where you start a shift system.
Since the two of you share the same wee stinkin BedSit, why doesn’t one of you have a few hours off, then,, you could give the other one a turn in the bed.
Instead, all we have is you two on here in tandem,,sittin in your mingin’ underpants, doing your dual Gate Keeper roll and borin’ the arse off of everybody at the same time.
You should start a crowd fundraiser to see if you can get enough money to buy another singe bed. It must be a bit of a squeeze for you two fat bastards trying to fit into a single bed.
And I can hear the screams already,,,:
“Rev Stu,,he said bad words to me,,I want him barred”
Spain is requesting that Professor Ponsati, Pres. Puigdemont and their party colleagues are arrested and deported to Spain for the referendum held in Catalonia.
The referendum entailed putting a bill through the Catalan Parliament, planning the event, publicising the event, printing ballot papers, managing he electoral role, hiring buildings, sending out ballot papers, inviting international observers, policing on the day, the population voting, collection of votes, counting of votes, declaring the result, etc all in the glare of 27 hr / 7 day per week TV and media.
This is not a task that can be done easily, overnight or out of sight.
It strikes me that Spain could have jumped in at any time to stop this prior to the vote but chose not to. I assume due to bad press they would have received and hoping the vote would go their way.
Had the vote gone Spain’s way, none of this would be happening, Spain would be delighted.
Spain’s reputation is tarnished regardless, the only way they could have part recovered their reputation is to hold the ballot again under international management. This will not happen as Spain would lose.
Personally, I hope the Catalan people get their freedom quickly and the EU favours people power, not state power. However, I see this being a drawn out protracted process, but ultimately Catalans will win!
French boats in the Channel half of the English Channel is in French waters. 12 mile exclusive (EU) home port limit.
Now Brexit disaster.”
EU is primarily protecting a vital food resource for the EU. Planet toryboy is ofcourse playing it all down, how its no biggee that UK fash got reamed by them, because its SO small now anyway.
But UKOK territorial water fishing is a huge deal, for the EU. Ensuring food supply or food security was one of the main issues behind EU formation, after near post WW2 Europe wide starvation.
All we ever heard about here was EU butter mountains but food security for the EU was and is far more than what massed ranks of beeb gimps try to brainwash us EU bad about.
I don’t know, and don’t really care about their politics – that’s their business.
But, now they’ve buried old Eric, I would love it if Greg Hemphill and Ford Kiernan could bring a David Torrance type figure into Still Game, then rip the pish out of him.
It would work wonders for the cause.
@Ken500 says: 26 March, 2018 at 11:24 am:
“‘Should have embraced’ – predick text.”
Doesn’t matter Ken500 – few Wingers are reading your current load of blethers – including me and I only scroll past well proven false flag wavers you claim to be Indy supporters.
I want to interact with those with opposing views but not those with daft personal beliefs.
Ottomanboi..
‘ % who think that destruction was all worthwhile, that It brought ‘us’ together and together we’re better, is an indicator of how deep the psychological scarring goes.
The young, the hopeful and the brave are usually spared that deep deliberate ignorance.
A direct parallel with eg US gun laws and the movement enraged with its own society’s brutally conservative history.
Why is progress demonised to an educated population? While those apathetic to politics merely rubber-stamp continued hypocracy.
“Rev Stu,,he said bad words to me,,I want him barred”
Hi Rock! How’s it hangin Rockindykinters2:D
A few lunchtime links
link to politico.eu
link to carnegieeurope.eu
link to uk.businessinsider.com
PictAtRandom,
aye, it’s stressful, living under this latest British Empire. Trying to make sense, from a starting point of extreme ridiculousness.
If debate dies, those pandering to ignorance (conservatives) win.
Kill hate, not debate.
Switched on Sky News this morning and the only Headline Banner used was the Major Incident regarding an Australian Cricketer
rubbing grit on to a ball.
There you have it.
What priority does the UK media have when it comes to a Spanish Fascist government destroying European Democracy by imprisoning Catalonian politicians?
Nothing to see here. Oh Look a Cricket Ball!
Absolutely pathetic from the UK Politicians and their Media.
Anent Scottish Trespass Laws! it’s a myth that these have been abolished, they are still on the books & trespassers can be charged with Breach of the Peace in certain circumstances. The 2003 Land Reform Act gave Responsible Access but did not abolish trespass. Railway property, Ministry of Defence land & the curtilage of private property etc’ are all protected by trespass laws!
“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us!”
Imagine coming onto an anti-media-corruption site and resorting to calling regular posters fat b-stards and suggesting they share a bedsit! Lol.
Here’s some FZ lyrics re bedsits, easy parallel with brexit-speak.
(play fast)
Used to have a job
And I was doin fairly well.
Depression came along
Everybody start to yell.
‘Wheres those golden-good-ole-days
And all the crap we used to sell’
I’m in hot-plate-heaven
At the Green Hotel.
Looks like the German Court has refused to extradite.
UK Tory Government strategy? Tony Blair nails it:
“So, the Government will turn to fudge, they will understand – and the Brexiteers will assist them – that they have somehow to get past March 2019 without a defeat and they can only do that if the terms of the new relationship are sufficiently vague to let the fiction of ‘cakeism’ continue.”
(Bloomberg)
‘Cakeism’ means getting the best out of leaving the EU, while getting the best out of staying in the EU, with the effect of placating both remain voters and leave voters in the Tory Party as well as among the electorate, thereby ensuring a Tory win in the next General Election against a weak and divided Labour Party – not forgetting with the indispensable help of the data harvesting companies.
Result – endless Tory rule with endless Tory Austerity .
Independence time, Scotland !
The international observers. The Catalonia Independence Ref 1917 not meet the standards under International Law and should be declared null and void. It did not meet Catalonia Law.
Wikipedia
Heedy,
That’s the first time I’ve seem a comment from @kinters, does he come here often?Found any patterns or is he/she just a flat out hater of Scots.
Don’t let the facts get in the way of the argument. Just get suckered.
Various commenters have opposing views re Catalonian legislative procedures.
Regardless of what has happened in chambers or on the streets..
Spanish conservatism had suppressed progressive politics and representatives to maintain it’s electoral advantage.
Don’t let the facts get in the way of the argument. Just get suckered.
I love you ken500:D but no one in Europe, well anywhere, should be jailed by any government for their political beliefs. You either accept that simple fact of democracy, free speech and law, or you start making exceptions, for all kinds of awful reasons.
louis.b.argyll, yes but its just Rock having a massive toryboy tantrum so its fine. You know you struck a yoon nerve rather hard when he goes this nuts:D
It’s the facts. Freely available in the internet etc. Not ‘personal belief’ or daft or otherwise. Ie accepting the simple fact of democracy, free speech and Law. Supporting democracy, free speech and Law. Not twisting the facts to set an agenda which will rebound. Not setting the agenda for personal belief. Or some pathetic hysteria.
Go and check it up!
Go and check it up!
Ken500, you realise that this is the logic that should put us in the UKOK slammer? All it takes is one little EVEL vote on “rebel” Brits and you’ve got all kinds of jail time waiting, just for your belief in nation state Scotland.
The National:
READ: Sturgeon’s full speech on using new powers to ‘improve’ Scotland.
NICOLA Sturgeon has delivered a speech citing what Scotland is capable of even before becoming an independent nation.
The First Minister stated that in areas such as income tax and public services Scotland had the chance to take a different route from the UK – hoewever she concludes that only independence would let Scotland reach its full potential.
The speech was given to the SNP National Council in Glasgow yesterday, coming with a stark warning that the Tory party now feel they can get away with treating Scotland however they want.
She said: “Eleven years in government and the SNP enjoys double-digit leads.
“In every one of those years we’ve driven Scotland forward. World-leading climate change legislation. Expanded childcare. The best performing A&Es in the UK. The attainment gap in our schools starting to close.
“We know that Scotland’s full potential will only be realised when we have the normal powers of an independent country – but not being independent yet has not stopped us doing our best to improve the lives of the people of Scotland.
“With the new powers of the Parliament, won after the independence referendum, we are renewing our mission as a party of government and a movement for change.
“The Scottish Government budget, passed last month, has reignited a debate about the kind of country we want to be.
“On one side of the argument are the Tories. They want to give tax cuts to the richest – instead of investing in the NHS.
“They are dismantling the post-war welfare state. Benefit cuts which will push hundreds of thousands of children into poverty. The rape clause, the benefit cap, the bedroom tax, and the pensions scandal which means WASPI women have been robbed of their entitlement.
“The SNP has a renewed mission in government: to use Scotland’s new powers to show we can follow a new path – better than the old Westminster way of cuts and austerity, to meet the challenges of the future.
“In our budget we announced an extra £400 million for the NHS. We reformed the tax system to make it fairer and, yes, to allow us to put more money into the NHS, while protecting other vital public services.
“The decisions we have taken will mean that for the majority of tax-payers, Scotland will be the lowest taxed part of the UK this year. And we have asked those with the most money to contribute a bit more.
“We are the first party in most of my lifetime to have the guts in government to make income tax more progressive and raise more money from it to protect what we hold dear.”
Sturgeon added: “The Tories promised Scotland would be an ‘equal partner’. They promised that power lay with the Scottish people to decide how they are governed. That there would be no going back to the old ways.
“But they have gone back to thinking they can do what they want to Scotland and get away with it.
“Well, they can’t. They are a party, after all, that hasn’t won a democratic mandate from the people of Scotland for over 60 years. A party that struggles to even get the levels of support they got under Margaret Thatcher.
“So let this message go to the Tories today. You have no mandate for your hard Brexit. No mandate for your cuts. And no mandate for your attacks on the welfare state.”
Somebody asked yesterday which organisation should an Independent Scotland consider joining:
The EU or EFTA or EEA ?
Excellent question and does get you thinking.
They knew the penalties when they crossed the line. It is counter productive to put people in prison but in Spain/Catalonia they imprison people who break the Law. Strong penal system. It does not matter who they are politicians, bankers, lawyers, mayors. Royalty if they are convicted. The Spanish Law does need an overhaul. Antiquated no doubt. In Spain/Catalonia it does drag on and takes longer. Catalonia sets it’s own Law. These politicians were breaking Catalon Law. Or should they get a fine and do it again. Like in the UK. Damaging the economy and people’s lives.
Manandboy..
‘Result – endless Tory rule with endless Tory Austerity .
Do we let England’s Brexit define Scotland’s century?
I’m afraid not, no offence.
Scotland/UK is not Catalonia/Spain. Different, different , different, different, different,different.
Different Unionion, different religion, different culture, different economy, different laws, different traditions, different democracy, different population, different climate, different, different, different. Get over it.
It has got nothing to do with Scotland. They do not have a vote on it. Or the Spanish internal matters. Or the way they behave or conduct themselves. The constant comparison can damage the Scottish Indepence movement. People saying that what’s will happen in Scotland. Illegitimately. Just been done. Without any rationality.
Kinters 11.44am
That was a bit below the belt,,,But very funny
LOL
Stamps feet & flounces off!
louis.b.argyll = Heedy and Peffers The Gate Keepers.
Or
Batman and Robin
or
Wallace and Gromit
or
Simmit and Drawers,,,A perr a waarmers
@Ken 500,
According to your logic, EVERY country ever occupied by the UK should have remained that way. They were all governed by British laws (English), and we’re therefore guilty of sedition when they wanted independence back. They were hung,shot, and imprisoned for years.
You do realise this ?
Ian Murray that man who proudly posed in his 3 piece butcher’s apron suit backs Spain’s version of justice and democracy?
I disagree with his politics. Is it ok if I come round to his place and crack his skull with a riot baton?
Thought not.
This rotund little fellow traveller descends into new depths of stupidity and Brit Nat fascism, just to hold on to his blood stained pay packet.
Spain is imprisoning political opponents without trial. Perhaps Murray would throw us Self Determinists in jail?
What an absolute fool.
O/T. I think there should be a “3 strikes and you’re out” policy for people who come on here and comment about other people who come on here, rather than the atl article.
All this the law’s the law stuff is nonsense,we used to lock up Gay folk, we don’t do that anymore because the law was wrong,we used to lock up mentally ill folk, we don’t do that any more because we know that’s wrong
Laws are changed because people challenge the fact that they’re wrong laws, it’s kinda like Scottish attempts to get democracy, because democracy contrary to what Unionists seem to think doesn’t stand still and end on the day you voted for or against something
Democracy like life evolves, well for most of us thank goodness or we’d be still dragging our knuckles around like the folk who keep trying to prevent evolution
It’s not revolution
So, a question for kinters/indy2/rock, different or all 3, who cares…
Q. When are you going to actually post ON TOPIC ?
Calling others trolls, and then posting nothing but classic trolling nonsense/abuse, just makes you look like a bit, well, stupid.
So again, quote a single instance when you have ever posted ON TOPIC ?
This is your one and only chance to answer the question. Will you take it, or refuse and confirm what everyone already knows ?
Well ?
geeo = Heedy Peffers.
So you are happy for Heedy and Peffers to verbally abuse posters they don’t like BUT as soon as this is returned it seems to be breaching some kind of law.
You can’t have it all your own way.
If you give it out,,then you have to take it.
Dr Jim, spot on there.
But it has gone beyond politics, it’s now mutating into media vs progress, with the media paymasters being generally Conservative leaning- and the progressive side being generally demonised, now even jailed.
Democracy is abused by incumbent stallers.
The National:
Excellent speech by Nicola Sturgeon.
NICOLA Sturgeon has delivered a speech citing what Scotland is capable of even before becoming an independent nation.
The First Minister stated that in areas such as income tax and public services Scotland had the chance to take a different route from the UK – hoewever she concludes that only independence would let Scotland reach its full potential.
link to thenational.scot
If Professor Clara Ponsati is extradited to Spain, I will be resigning from the SNP.
To stand by and let this happen to an elected representative who has sought refuge in our country, would a total betrayal of everything that Scotland is supposed to stand for.
Yoonthink
We must have more police, more bombs, more big boats with bombs on them, jets, we need jets with guns that fire millions of bullets per minute…because of eh..threats, yes threats from other folk who have got all this stuff, so we need more, kill kill kill, exert more power and fear and it’s so ridiculousy stupid and for the fact that most of the time they have to use computer guidance technology to actually hit stuff
Now from the average bedroom in the average home a smart computery person can knock planes out of the sky interrupt communications and bring countries to a complete standstill
Now that’s what I call effective warring and only for the cost of a trip to Currys
Virus wars, it’s here, and everyone can play
Even teeny tiny little countries whose motto could be
Don’t threaten me ya big Bastirt or I’ll stop your economy
The world is full of Sheldon Coopers, and Scotland has loads of them
Should the UN get involved in the Catalan Crisis???
Or some other World body.
Because as far as I can make out nobody seems to know who is legally in the wrong here.
I know Spain are the bad guys but why haven’t any World law makers got involved.?
Just asking, hoping to be enlightened.
Yalta. If this allowed to go ahead, the Snp should walk out of westminster in protest.At least show the gutless EU that we don’t condone it.
To be fair to Ken, he has a proven track record of talking a lot of pish, so much so I don’t even bother to read his crap anymore.
@Fred says: 26 March, 2018 at 12:52 pm:
“Anent Scottish Trespass Laws!”
There’s no such Scots law, Fred. So your comment is blethers.
“it’s a myth that these have been abolished, they are still on the books”
How can a law that doesn’t exist still be on the books when it was never on the books in the first place?
… trespassers can be charged with Breach of the Peace in certain circumstances.”
Nope! That’s why they are charged with Breaching the Peace, Fred, they aren’t being charged with trespass and can only be charged with Breach of the Peace if they have Breached the Peace. If they peacefully stand their ground and do not become aggressive they cannot be charged with Breach of the peace either.
Had a farmer point a shotgun at me once while I was shooting a video. He informed me I was trespassing on private land. As it happened, and just by accident, I had not stopped the camcorder when I pushed the tiny button to pause the recording and got the whole thing on Hard disk.
The farmer knew me as he was local and along came the local law with the claim I had been abusive when asked to leave the bit of woodland I had been videoing.
Polis took a look at the video and I never heard another word about the incident. Except from the farmers wife, who stopped me on the Main Street and thanked me, “for no chairging her daft auld man”, with firearms offences.
“The 2003 Land Reform Act gave Responsible Access but did not abolish trespass.”
Nope! The 2003 Land Reform Act did nothing of the sort. For starters it couldn’t give reasonable access as the existing laws state that Scots have legal right to roam.
“Railway property, Ministry of Defence land & the curtilage of private property etc’ are all protected by trespass laws!”
Nope! Railway and MOD, (and some other areas), had restrictions based upon the danger that these inherently posses. As to, “the curtilage of private property”, those are the rules of the rights to personal privacy and have been contained under Scots law for centuries.
Believe it or not, but if you put a notice on your gate, “No Hawkers”, and you get a cold caller the cold caller has broken the law. Cold callers only have the right to enter near a dwelling to contact the occupier – unless there is a notice to say No hawkers or words to that effect.
I’ll quote you a few instances of Scottish court rulings.
Way back in the late 1940s/early 1950s the Edinburgh Evening News and the Scotsman newspapers covered a long running case.
In those days in the village of Crammond there was a boatman who operated a small rowing boat ferry across the River Almond. He charged threepence per head. On the western side the ferry was a large estate and an ancient right of way led to South Queensferry.
The Duke at that time thought to prevent what he thought were trespassers on his estate and, together with his gamekeeper armed with a shotgun, had turned back users of the right of way. He then sought to charge them with Trespass.
He then claimed that these interlopers were damaging his property and was informed that although they could be charged with the offence of criminal damage that this was a matter for the police and Procurators Fiscal to decide but he could sue them under civil law for damages.
Next up he was cautioned for threatening members of the public while accompanied by his employee armed with a shotgun. He then brought a test case against a person for damage to his estate and the court duly awarded him assessed damages … of a few pence for the person, having avoided following the marked path of the Right of Way to avoid a big muddy puddle, and had stepped on and damaged several blades of the Duke’s grass.
However, the judge awarded costs against the Duke who had to stump up for his own, and the defendants, legal costs. But note no one was convicted of trespass.
Then a member of the Royal family attempted to prevent members of the public crossing the Balmoral estate by marked footpaths and the case was thrown out.
More recently, Anne Gloag, joint Founder of the Stagecoach company, tried to stop public access across her Kinfauns Castle estate – and failed but was, (correctly), allowed to prevent public access within close proximity to the house and surrounding paddocks. This was, though, due to personal privacy and nothing to do with Trespass.
The only Trespass laws in Scotland concern Railways, MOD land and I believe, but cannot say for sure, such places as actively working quarries but these are from the pov of public safety.
There simply are not any English style laws of Trespass in Scotland.
Factually it is a criminal offence for anyone, (other than Police Officers and authorised public servants), to clamp, tow or otherwise detain a vehicle parked on private land and demand money to release the vehicle back to the owner. That also includes private owners from extracting money with threats of legal action against members of the public. There is no law of Blackmail in Scotland either.
Yalta
The process has nothing to do with the SNP, the courts decide, but the SNP are giving all other support to the Prof.
Are you saying you didn’t see Nicola Sturgeon’s statement, but your claiming to be in the SNP? Go and check.
Or maybe you’re just a fake.
Legerwood @ 15:38 (25.Mar),
Thepnr @ 19:16 (25.Mar),
Dave McEwan Hill @ 23:28 (25.Mar)
Thanks to you (and some others) for shining a beam of sanity among the screeds of misinformed verbiage re the EU.
It operates not by diktat of some small ruling elite as some seem to feverishly imagine, but by the rule of law as applied through the courts.
Since the Spanish regime (the real devils of the piece) re-issued an EU arrest warrant, police throughout the EU are obliged to detain the subject(s) in order that their case can be adjudged in a local court of law. Because we citizens all have rights, and this is how they are safeguarded.
The Rajoy regime was forced to withdraw its last attempt at extradition because they knew that it was about to be roundly dismissed by a Belgian court, and they wished to avoid embarassment and creating a (for them) negative precedent.
Maybe the Spanish neo-fascists have become emboldened of late for whatever reason, including some apparent disarray in the Catalan independence movement itself, but the occasional sotto-voce grumbling on here about Germany is far wide of the mark. The Germans at least have learned much from their fascist darkness. I would be very surprised indeed if a German court takes a different viewpoint from a Belgian one.
In fact, it seems to me that Puigdemont is actually playing a very clever game here. Rather than languishing uselessly in a Spanish slammer entirely at the mercy of the regime, he is peripatetically engaging with the European legal system to highlight the rigid anti-democratic nature of the Spanish system. And Rajoy & Co are so stupidly hellbent they are helping him do it!
Which is one lesson we can actually transfer here. The more rigid and intransigent the BritNat state can be made to look, the more Scots will become alienated by it.
Yalta. I feel your pain but resigning from the SNP won’t help. The SNP legally can’t do anything. As Scotland is part of the uk the legal system (although it stinks) must take its course.
From what I can gather the case will be heard in a Scots court rather than down south and you would hope that Professor Ponsati would get a better deal. But I wouldn’t bank on it.
Bobp. Agree with you that the SNP should walk out of Westminster if this case eventually leads to the Professor being sent back to Spain.
After independence I always wanted to remain in Europe but the EU’s treatment of Greece followed by the the fascist Spanish government treatment of the democratically elected government of Catalonia has made me question my views.
@Louis B
BritState is rather good at mindgames. With the older population threats to pensions, drop in standard of living etc sow seeds of doubt. With young people that generally doesn’t work but trailing the idea of unemployment because companies will be queueing up to quit Scotland can strike target.
Taking a risk, making a leap of hope or imagination is a state of mind. Capturing the heart is easier than capturing the mind.
I believe most Scots are ‘nationalist’ at heart but many have heads full of reactionary Unionist ‘noise’, although they might well argue that they are exercising good Scottish commonsense.
HandandShrimp says:”
26 March, 2018 at 1:03 pm
Looks like the German Court has refused to extradite.”
Handshrimp.
Do you have a link for that?
Yalta says:
26 March, 2018 at 3:12 pm
If Professor Clara Ponsati is extradited to Spain, I will be resigning from the SNP.
Oh no! Is there anyone still in the SNP because last 2 weeks online there’s been loads of SNP members going to quit the SNP over Strong and Stable’s war with Russia, which seems to now be shelved, certainly the great beeb gimp network’s not even mentioned it today.
Spooky, UKOK style.
link to drive.google.com
Interview on GMS this morning, Gary talking to another journalist who had interviewed Clara Ponsati two weeks ago with excerpts from her interview.
kinters says:
26 March, 2018 at 2:14 pm
louis.b.argyll = Heedy and Peffers The Gate Keepers.
None shall pass.
Give you this much indyRock2kinters, whatever you think youre up to, you are comic relief.
“MADRID/BERLIN (Reuters) – A German court said on Monday it was likely to take several days to decide whether to extradite former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont to Spain to face rebellion charges over the region’s campaign for independence.”
link to uk.reuters.com
@kinters.
It is irrelevent what my opinion of others is, i gave you an opportunity to not be a cunt.
You proved you are one, so fuck off you trolling wankstain.
No idea if anyone posted this, from the EU official website, but some hae referred to it:
link to e-justice.europa.eu
“Double criminality check – no longer required for 32 categories of offences
For 32 categories of offences, there is no verification on whether the act is a criminal offence in both countries. The only requirement is that it be punishable by a maximum period of at least 3 years of imprisonment in the issuing country. For other offences, surrender may be subject to the condition that the act constitutes an offence in the executing country.”
and
“Limited grounds for refusal
A country can refuse to surrender the requested person only if one of the grounds for mandatory or optional refusal applies:
. . .
Optional grounds – such as:
– lack of double criminality for offences other than the 32 listed in Article 2(2) of the Framework Decision of EAW ”
So since rebellion is up to 25 years, it seems that would bare extradition, and if there is no crime of “rebelleion” in the UK, so would that. But it seems to me the warrant has to be executed, it’s up to the courts then. Though it would be better if the test was made before the warrnat was executed to save distress.
Seems to me though that since less than 70% are successful (from Thepnr I think), the EAW should be revisited to make the conditions tighter to decrease the suffering to the individuals. Could be the EAW in its present form is actually not in line with human rights, and though a sensible thing in priniciple, badly formulated.
“maximum period of at least 3 years ”
Actually I read that wrong, it means minor offences with a maximum of say 1 year would not be included. So the bar is that it must be a crime in the executing country.
@Bobp says: 26 March, 2018 at 3:20 pm:
“Yalta. If this allowed to go ahead, the Snp should walk out of westminster in protest.At least show the gutless EU that we don’t condone it.”
Then you haven’t bothered to find out what the FM and other SNP elected members have been posting then?
Like the FM’s explanation of what the government, and EU government is allowed to say and do.
link to thenational.scot
Or this that Nicola posted on social media:-
“To all those angered by latest developments on #Catalonia, please read @scotgov statement below. Our support for Catalan self determination and strong opposition to Spain’s decision to seek the arrest and imprisonment of independence supporting politicians is well established …
@Robert Peffers
I’m afraid you’re wrong, there are or is a trespass law in Scotland, it’s just not the same as in England:
link to thompsons-scotland.co.uk
geeo says:
26 March, 2018 at 4:36 pm
@kinters.
It is irrelevent what my opinion of others is, i gave you an opportunity to not be a cunt.
You proved you are one, so fuck off you trolling wankstain.
Very nice indeed geeo,
Let’s hope you are put in your place by the fair minded posters of Wings.
geeo,,you are of course just one more name from the Heedy Peffers Book of Trolls.
@Brian Powell says: 26 March, 2018 at 3:47 pm:
“Yalta
The process has nothing to do with the SNP, the courts decide, but the SNP are giving all other support to the Prof.
Are you saying you didn’t see Nicola Sturgeon’s statement, but your claiming to be in the SNP? Go and check.
Or maybe you’re just a fake.”
Indeed, Brian, Of course it is just a coincidence these dissenting, “SNP BAAAD!, commenters all suddenly come on-line in Wings at around the same time. Just as if, just by chance, a group of Squaddies haf fallen in for parade.
Mind you, if their NCOs and Officers discover that real Wingers are onto them, the would be inept chain yankers will be on real jankers.
Heedy and Peffers attack that many people on here that they have to post under invented names, so they can spread the blame around.
We know the wee games the BedSit Land bum chums play,,don’t we?
I feel, right now with the extradition case against Professor Ponsati, the Scottish Government are between a rock and a hard place.
I suspect, everyone concerned, from FM Nicola Sturgeon down would far rather just tell the Spanish Government to FOAD and see the Professor safely here in Scotland, but, that would immediately cause a backlash of hysterica abuse from the wilder elements in the Tory Party and their running dogs in the media.
So, they have to leave it to the Crown Office, the courts, Police Scotland and Scots Law to come-up with the right result, which would be the Professor staying free and in Scotland.
Even then, you can bet the usual suspects, will be all over the case like a rash, seeking the usual “SNP Bad” headlines. When the Professor is set free, expect a Daily Mail two-page spread calling for the end of Scots Law and insisting, since we are “One precious Union”, there should only be British (by which they mean English) Law.
@Heed
According to Hutcheon on Sunday, there are probably only 2 left in the SNP = Sturgeon and Murrell.
At least, I think that’s what he said.
Kinters I am sure you are all too familiar with that of which you accuse others. Grow up sonny.
I believe that Germany don’t have a law that covers rebellion
so it may be the case they can argue against extradition on that basis
The only people hunting this particular dog hard will be the Brits
because in their twisted minds it might put Scots off Independence (learn us a lesson eh)
Except the more badly they behave the more people of fair minds notice what a shower of shits they are and Scotland like Catalonia should make our own decisions how we like them and not how we’re told to like them by people who don’t like us
yesindyref2 says:
26 March, 2018 at 5:13 pm
@Heed
According to Hutcheon on Sunday, there are probably only 2 left in the SNP = Sturgeon and Murrell.
My Facebook thingee wasn’t exactly swamped with enraged SNP members last week threatening to Leave the SNP over Nicola’s invasion of Russia alongside Strong and Stable, but there was a very clear, presence of the above, all accounts were personal info empty, to the point of anonymity, not that new, a year maybe and no actual Facebook stuff on their FB page. I have FB “liked” several local SNP groups dotted all over Scotland and in each one, there was your angry SNP members card ripper upper.
If I was a UK gov department of silly chancers/psyops, I’d probably be doing it like that too.
Oddly enough, when queried just a little, two of the SNP members about to rip up there SNP membership and never vote SNP again, also went hysterical with abusive rage, just like kinterindy2Rock do.
Spooky.
Mrs May put much emphasis on Gibraltar today, as being important to the UK. Is the lack democracy in Spain the sacrificial lamb to keep it ?
Better to have him pissing out of the tent than in?
link to craigmurray.org.uk
“Very few voters of the SNP put Nicola Sturgeon into parliament in order to warm her toes at the Robert Adam fireplaces at Bute House, while Catalan leaders are dragged from Scotland to a terrible repression. The SNP leadership have become far too adept at speaking with British Establishment voices and thinking with British Establishment minds.”
@Heed
I commented on that article as did a couple of other pro-indy posters, and received the normal number of upvotes. Looked back a few hours later, and a few quite silly anti-SNP posts had like loads of upvotes, hundred or more. My guess is it’s one or two from SiU, upvote refresh upvote refresh. Possibly kinterindy2Rock!
Is there something wrong with some of you that you feel it necessary to respond – some more obnoxiously than the original – to the devious detractor ?
Can you not just ignore the driveller?
Socrates MacSporran @ 17:12,
It’s not a decision of the Scottish Government to take in any way shape or form, so it’s not in any bind, whatever views it may corporately take in private (or even in public). Nor is it a matter for the UKGov either for that matter.
It’s all up to the courts interpreting the law as it stands. Including the human rights of the arrested to a fair trial. Something that is currently extremely unlikely in Spain, where being a supporter of democracy and representing legitimate voters have apparently become crimes against the state.
It may be very tough for the individuals concerned to be under threat like this, but this is what they willingly signed up for. This is what their struggle for independence is about. This is their challenge, and we can only admire them for making it.
The fact that a respected professor like Ponsati is being threatened by remote control from Spain via rampant abuse of a legal process can only backfire on the Rajoy regime in the eyes of any decent observer.
@yesindyref2 says: 26 March, 2018 at 5:00 pm:
“@Robert Peffers
I’m afraid you’re wrong, there are or is a trespass law in Scotland, it’s just not the same as in England:
link to thompsons-scotland.co.uk“
So, yesindyref2, What part of, “There is no English Style Law of Trespass in Scots law”, is it that you didn’t understand?
I’m with Craig Murray on this one.
Possibly kinterindy2Rock!
Team work. Or rather teamGB work, does make a lot of sense to go after YES2 votes like this online psyops wise.
Even a few of them working from home to planned out procedures, can really get stuck in on social media, just takes a little prep and time.
UK gov’s had ages to do it too, look at how hard fast Strong and Stable’s snap GE was sprung, all to a backdrop of extraordinary BBC Scotland led “we said NO, we meant NO” fury.
Then there’s my Slovene girlfriend and the whole of planet toryboy in Scotland, all completely mute on the rolling Catalonia arrest warrant saga.
Why would a tory carpetbagger like my Slovene girlfriend, sorry, Constitutional Law specialist, have absolutely nothing to say about any of it?
Because they want a Catalonia style end to the Scottish parliament perhaps? Yup.
link to twitter.com
heedtracker @ 17:34,
More like a loose pisser, I would say. Anybody could catch it. Craig Murray has completely lost his marbles now, poor sod.
What the hell does he expect Nicola to do? Don her superhero costume, swoop in and carry Ponsati away to safety?
I mean, really. All this SNPbaaad is helping whom exactly…?
Every government and politician knows perfectly well what the SNP stance is on this woman and the whole Catalonia debacle
but the Yoon types choose to ignore all that and waffle utter nonsense Nicola Sturgeon this Nicola Sturgeon that
If Nicola Sturgeon thought she could hide this wummin in her spare room she’d do it, but she cannae
Craig Murray? if I could throw him far I’d go and get him and throw him further, opportunist drivel from him like all true Yoon Labour supporters…. that he pretends not to be
I mean, really. All this SNPbaaad is helping whom exactly…?
I’d have thought guys like this, or say that chancer MacAlpine for example, would just leave the SNP badding to the enormous army of SNP bad yoons and beeb gimps out there, starting at Pacific Quay and ending, god only knows where.
But what can you do.
I’m with Craig Murray also.
Been fighting for Indy for 50 years and funk the consequences.
Stop playing it nice.Stop playing THEIR games.
@Bob Mack says:26 March, 2018 at 5:21 pm:
“Kinters I am sure you are all too familiar with that of which you accuse others. Grow up sonny.”
I’m sure that many others can see the very obvious flaws in the, “Rock and the Sock Puppets”, comments. That is besides the all too obvious similar style.
In spite of it being pointed out to them/him/her/it, (there is no clue to gender in their adopted names), Argumentum ad hominem is a fallacious argumentative strategy, and all their would be arguments continue to consist of attacks upon the person and none address the logic of the argument or debate.
If they are not all one and the same person then why has not a single one of them understood that when you attack the commenter and not the logic of the commenter’s argument you have lost the argument before you have begun it.
Here they are again, today, with nothing to offer but contrived accusations and hurtled abuse.
Personally I don’t mind. If they are attempting to annoy me they are destined to fail for they lack the power to bother me.
I believe, if they are attempting to bother me, then they are leaving others alone.
No, not fake, a member since 19th September 2014.
Some things are more important than Realpolitik.
A statement would have been little comfort to Anne Frank.
It’s beyond me why generally sane commenters on here have lost the plot, Craig Murray included.
Remember the separation of legislature from judiciary? Most folk agree that’s a good thing for a shed load of reasons.
What in the name of gawd is Sturgeon supposed to do?
Its been explained many times, for those with cognitive skills, or respect for facts. The ONLY recourse is to challenge the grounds for the EAW. Aamer Anwar is Prof Ponsati’s solicitor, and he intends to do this, on a few grounds. He will do that at court.
What is difficult to understand about this? If Sturgeon was the type of FM to harbour Ponsati, then she would probably support UDI, and be orchestrating civil disobedience.
BBC meeting their requirements:
In England, Corbyn has just had another character assassination done on him, only thing missing was him holding a can of Zyklon B, maybe that will be left to newsnight.
In Scotland: The SNP are to be reported only with a negative perspective, any pro Scotland voices are to be ignored, or at least put so low in the running order and duration to be almost ignored.
Conclusion, the BBC seems to be stuffed with Tories, they do seem to have all the top jobs.
Bitter together – again:
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
A statement would have been little comfort to Anne Frank.
You know Anne Frank hid in almost total secrecy?
Yoons are funny sometimes
@Robert Peffers
And what part of your own comment in reply to ““Anent Scottish Trespass Laws!”
from Fred with your TOTALLY INCORRECT reply:
“There’s no such Scots law, Fred. So your comment is blethers.””
is there YOU don’t understand? You wrote it!
You were wrong, admit it, rather than “blethers” your way through hoping nobody noticed.
The state of play a year ago regarding European Arrest Warrants served in Scotland.
link to archive.is
Only fools and horses think the Spanish EAW is anything other than a politically driven exploitation of a useful system
It makes no sense, but Dirty Des was always a risk taker, ultimately deciding not to so it, or being persuaded not to, who knows!
Why are unionists, unionists? I don’t know, and neither do they…
@RJS
He does play the Devil’s Advocate at times, but on this one I’m inclined to agree, he’s lost the plot.
Rev Stu, you better get a grip on your comments section. It’s become an echo chamber for the regulars, just like Bella. No debate is allowed.
Yalta says:
26 March, 2018 at 6:42 pm
Rev Stu, you better get a grip on your comments section. It’s become an echo chamber for the regulars, just like Bella. No debate is allowed.
Not another one. Know one is preventing us from saying anything we like, including asking you stuff.
Why that’s upsetting you so much, have you met indy2Rockkinters yet:D
@ heedtracker – do you have to take the bait EVERY time?
@ Robert Peffers I purloined your 11.59am post to share on F/B Yes pages & hopefully better inform the Scottish People .
A quick example of how the BBC reports
We don’t want burger vans outside our schools says some non descript Tory MSP
So the BBC get themselves down to a school film some kids eating some chips then here’s the good bit
The BBC buy a load of chips and offer them to kids while they film their wee hands digging in to free chips from the BBC
The narrative? our kids are suffering from obesity, well we know that but was that really the way to report what was supposed to be a factual story but there were’nt enough kids buying chips so the BBC had to encourage more of them
BBC, you want edits we, got edits
Yalta — yeh when Churchill with the USA decided to sort out Europe and dumped Poland etc to their shame Stalin smirked. Listening to commentators today I am confident the Scots courts will throw out the fascist Spanish Governments attempt to undermine democracy. I also think this may also backfire on the UK government and benefit the SNP
Like Peffers any unionist troll wishing to attack me feel free. Water off a ducks back as they say. Brexiters are twitching now in panic.
Here we go, Here we go
Catalon/Spanish politicians acting illegally being used to illegitimately attack the SNP. Predictable.
Some people donated to keep Craig Murray out of prison. Off on another lying tirade against the SNP. Damaging Scottish Independence. Some people never learn. Jumping on the bandwagon. Repeating the same behaviour over and over. Additive, risky behaviour.
@Socrates MacSporran
Having carefully considered the various options open to Nicola Sturgeon, my view is that she should take this opportunity to forget about legal niceties and/or playing by the rules and tell Spain quite firmly to fuck off. If that costs the SNP a few votes in Morningside so be it.
The 11WW to protect Poland but handed over to Russia domination for 30+ years. Yalta.The EU helped them to self determination/Independence. Bailed them out.
@ALANM
If Sturgeon did that she would be operating outside the Rule of Law, and could even perhaps be prosecuted – apart from the simple fact she doesn’t have the means to do so. She doesn’t actually control either the police or the courts.
There’s a lot of water-muddying here about trespass. First off, yes there is a Trespass Law in Scotland – the Trespass (Scotland) act of 1865 defines it. This act is still in play and was amended by the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003.
However, it is not the same as the English Trespass laws. Specifically, section 3.1 of the Trespass (Scotland) Act states,
“Every person who lodges in any premises, or occupies or encamps on any land, being private property, without the consent and permission of the owner or legal occupier of such premises or land…” (emphasis added)
It does not specifically cover transit or entering of private land. English Tort law includes “unjustifiable interference with the possession of land” which would cover the entry of land.
Both of which are civil offences. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (with my claim to fame of being on the front page of the Scotsman at a “Kill the Bill” demonstration) goes further to make certain trespasses a criminal offence.
So you’re all partially right, and you’re all partially wrong.
And going OT, has anyone else had one of those Scotland in Poo-nion newsletters? After Stu’s last post, I have a good mind to report them for posting offensive material through my letterbox!
@ALANM
Really intriguing. Let’s hear the whole strategy you think Sturgeon should follow, apart from “Fuck off, Spain”
It’s your opportunity to show us how us boring folk, quoting law and such nonsense, where we are wrong.
Aye Dr Jim, the bbc are creating their own news stories and as somebody else said earlier, another character assassination of Corbyn.
@yesindyref2
You have two choices in this situation – let the judges decide or do the right thing. I’m on the side of doing the right thing.
This will be a defining moment for our country.
If she is led off by our police to a life in prison, it will be a truly shameful event in our history.
Valerie/Alanm. I can see both point’s of view. And I think that’s what agitates all of us, the fact that our own SG can’t make decisions for our country. We will be told to shut up eat our cereal and mother england will make these important political decisions on our behalf. FFS PSB’s what is wrong with you?
@ALANM
And how exacttly do you think Sturgeon is going to stop the police executing a EAW? Form a protective shield? And how exactly do you think Sturgeon is going to stop the courts doing their job – close the courts? Would you like Scotland to be a police state, where the Government has absolute control over the police, and a fascist state where they have total control of the police and the actual execution of the law?
No thanks.
Balaaargh 7.24pm.exactly ,say it was hate mail that caused you immense stress.And you wish police Scotland to investigate it.
Yalta,
If you’re stupid enough not to know the legal position the SG is in,due to folks believing the lies/shite in 2014, don’t folks have a right to educate you?
I will be one of the “lunatics” trying to stop her being deported but alas ,the YooKay duped just enough peeps to ensure a stranglehold over Scotland…………until the next time,eh?
If she is led off by our police to a life in prison, it will be a truly shameful event in our history.
Thought that was Scots FM backing the Strong and Stable tory UK war with Russia, Yalta?
Or was that just the last two weeks of mass SNP membership ending their SNP membership reasons?
Its all a movable SNP bad feast though isn’t it. Anything awful happening and its used to smear the SNP.
Could all work, it usually does in teamGB.
@yesindyref2
Do what Westminster would do – pass a new law to ensure that all extraditions must be approved by the Justice Secretary.
Surely the UN, who are meant to be the World’s law makers, should intervene regarding the Catalan Crisis and let everybody know exactly where they stand.
Why are the World’s governing body so quite about this mis-carraige of justice.
@ ALANM
So you go with the Craig Murray strategy?
Holyrood is a legal entity with 5 political parties sitting as elected reps.
You want SNP to present a law to outlaw a EU EAW? Is it for one person, or all EAWs?
Try and think through the rest of this scenario.
Yalta says: 6:42 pm
“Rev Stu, you better get a grip on your comments section. It’s become an echo chamber for the regulars, just like Bella. No debate is allowed.”
Welcome aboard Yalta. I have been calling out Heedy and Peffers for a few days now.
They are not labelled “Wings Over Scotland Gate Keepers”, for nothing.
They have a wee Book of Trolls, where they invent names so we don’t think it is them that is posting.
They live in their wee BedSit Land in a bitter world where no one but them has an Opinion.
I think people know that Scotland does not have English style Laws of Trespass. Google “Scottish Trespass Laws!” for the Scottish variety!
@Valerie
I’m guessing you’re either a lawyer or a solicitor. If so, I totally understand where you’re coming from. But what do you do when the law is an ass?
@ALANM
Did you read Sturgeon’s statement about this? Not just the first part where she says the SG supports the people of Catalonia and opposed the Spanish decision, but this part:
“The fact that our justice system is legally obliged to follow due process in the determination of extradition requests does not change those views.
“Under the Extradition Act 2003, Scottish Ministers have no role in the determination of European Arrest Warrants. Our police, prosecution service and courts are independent and are legally obliged under this UK legislation to fulfil their responsibilities. Scottish Ministers have no powers to intervene in this process.”
“Scottish Ministers have no powers to intervene in this process”
Not even emergency powers, as that comes under Reserved Powers.
link to thenational.scot
Then if you google “eu passes european arrest warrant” you’ll find a few interesting links, including this one:
link to researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk
basically the UK could amend the 2003 Act – or come out of the EAW and renegotiate extradition treaties with each of the EU-27. Independent Scotland could do the same if a member of the EU. But Scotland is not Independent yet, and whether iScotland would want to amend a similar Act or come out of he EAW would be the decision of the Scottish Parliament. Not Sturgeon, nor the Justice Secretary.
Unless you want Sturgeon to have the equivalent of “Henry the Eighth powers”?
No thanks, that’s not the form of Government I choose within my Claim of Right.
O deary me all those false flag SNP pretendy members tearing up their membership cards pmsl .
Welcome aboard Yalta. I have been calling out Heedy and Peffers for a few days now.
Indeed you indy2Rockkinters.
Crackers as you are Rock, I’ve been listen to the beeb r4 gimp network all day, where our torboy masters are bashing on and on about something or other in cricket cheating, as probably one of the greatest electoral frauds, since the last great UK tory electoral shyst, all gets demoted to the middle radio pages, by assorted beeb gimps.
So in the scale of things toryboy wise RockindyKinters2, have at it.
Anybody know if we “still “ have – Rebellion – laws ?
Apologies if it’s been posted already….trying to catch up and may have missed it?
@yesindyref2
I hope you never find yourself in the position of explaining all that over some tapas in a Barcelona bar.
The National:
READ: Ian Blackford’s urgent letter to the Spanish Ambassador over Catalan arrest .
The SNP’s Westminster leader Ian Blackford MP has written to the Spanish Ambassador in London requesting a meeting as a ‘matter of urgency’.
The news follows reports that a European Arrest Warrant has been issued for Clara Ponsati, a Catalan professor at St Andrews University, who plans to hand herself into police.
Here’s Blackford’s letter in full:
Mr Ambassador, I write with deep frustration and anger at the recent developments regarding politicians from Catalonia. Over the weekend I watched with horror as European Arrest Warrants were issued, aggressively pursuing democratically elected Catalan politicians for holding an independence referendum last year.
Both during the referendum and since, the SNP has spoken out against the use of force, efforts to prevent the ballot taking place, and the arrest and imprisonment of elected politicians.
We believe that the political dispute over the future direction of Catalonia is one that must be handled democratically, and that following the recent elections in Spain, instigated by the Spanish government, it is incumbent on the Spanish government to negotiate with those newly elected parliamentarians, including those currently under threat of arrest.
I have very real concerns that the current pre-trial imprisonment and pursuit of recently elected politicians, preventing them from participating in the formation of a new government goes against the principle of, democracy, of respect for human rights and risks people’s basic civil liberties.
It is deeply disappointing that as part of this pursuit of pro-Catalan independence politicians a former Minister, who is a respected academic in Scotland, now faces charges of rebellion – a charge which is not recognised in Scots law.
The independent legal process includes the right of any individual subject to proceedings under the Extradition Act 2003 to oppose their extradition in the courts and it is vital that the integrity of this process is protected.
I request a meeting with you at your earliest convenience and as a matter of urgency to discuss these matters further.
@ALANM
So what do you want me – or Sturgeon – or Matheson – to do?
“pass a new law to ensure that all extraditions must be approved by the Justice Secretary”
I’ve already explained that can’t be done currently, any other suggestions?
Or do you think maybe the Courts should be allowed to do their job, and as Liz g suggests – check to see if there is a Rebellion Law in Scotland, or indeed the UK? I don’t know, do you? Can you provide a link to it please?
The National:
link to thenational.scot
I see Scotland’s own über nationalists, the Conservative and Unionist Party (Scottish Chapter), are aligning themselves with fascists!
They edge ever close to being out and out fascists themselves. We’ve heard the far right views of lowly councillors and activists, but from what I see on Twitter politicians are donning the dubious mantle.
Murdo Fraser makes an anti-SNP/independence holiday joke as the police in Spain shoot and wound protesters. How sick can you get!
I believe DUP & Tebbit have turned up at at anti-Semitic rally, very interesting. How is it I feel they are more interested in damaging Corbyn.
@ ALANM
We all think the law is an ass at some point. The law you think is an ass, is Spanish law. At the moment, their actions on the EAW are lawful.
It is now for Prof Ponsati’s lawyer to prove that the grounds for arrest are unproven/outwith/stupid within the agreed terms (agreed by all EU members) and it therefore cannot be enacted.
That is what happens in civilised society. We abide by the processes of the law, as argued and passed by those elected.
I would have really liked it if the Scottish government told James Kelly, the Greens etc to Fuck Off when the OBFA was presented for repeal. I thought it was a good law, there were prosecutions etc., but SNP were outvoted by other elected reps.
Aamer Anwar is the best in his field, and he will kick ass. I truly hope the court listens, and finds Ponsati cannot be extradited on this EAW. One of his grounds will be she cannot have a fair hearing in Spain, based on their previous actions.
Vestas says: 26 March, 2018 at 5:45 pm:
“I’m with Craig Murray on this one.”
I’m not and told Craig as much on his blog, and the reasons why. Which I note you do not do so here.
He is wrong and I’m not the only person who says he is here on Wings. Yet while those why tell him he is wrong all can tell him why but those who say he is right have given no good reason to claim so.
The SG are correct in this and they gave good reasons why. In the end, if they do not stick within the laws of the EU, the laws of the UK, the laws of Scotland or international law, they are putting not only themselves outside the law but the very person you want them to support.
Which, support by the way, they have already done well. In the first place no one, but the Spanish Government, has abused this lady’s human or civil rights so it is silly to take action against anyone but the Spanish Government.
Now consider this, there are 26, (the UK is unable to take decisions), EU countries none of which have taken any action except, Belgium. Belgium refused the previous Spanish extradition request and Belgium gave their good reasons.
Germany is saying it could be July before their courts make a decision and the Scottish judiciary have not yet even got the lady arrested.
It is NOT the SNP, The SG or Westminster’s place to decide if or when a decision has to be made. It is a matter for the Scottish Judiciary. However, due legal process is for the police to arrest her and send a report to the Procurators Fiscal who then have to investigate if there is even a case to answer.
Meanwhile they could either remand the lady or release her on bail to await decisions.
If they decide she is not at risk of absconding they can release her on nominal bail, (When a criminal suspect is arrested, booked and granted release on their “own recognizance,” or “O.R.,” no bail money is paid to the court and no bond is posted)? As the lady is turning herself in, she looks like there is no risk of absconding.
Is there a time limit? Looks like there isn’t as Germany says it could take their legal system till July to decide.
Now here’s a big point – Scottish law and English/UK law are independent of each other and by the Scottish Government staying out of it and letting the Scottish judiciary get on with the job it gives the UK government a very big headache when they lest need one.
I believe, (I may be wrong), that the Spanish Government have made serious errors in serving an EU warrant for extradition upon the Scottish legal system because the EU member is the UK but Spain has just acknowledged Scotland’s legal jurisdiction to act under Scots law.
So does the UK allow the Scottish legal system get on with the job or does the UK attempt to take over?
The big sovereignty question is back on the agenda again. Do they concede that Scots law has the sovereign right or do they try to grab the initiative?
Many more battles have been lost through attacking too quickly than by biding your time. Perhaps the trained lawyer, N. Sturgeon, may have a couple of aces up her sleeves. Anyone else not got their pop corn in yet?
Robert peffers. Spot on Robert.they were quite happy for us take the flack for megrahi
Somebody do something, do what’s right!!!!!
What?
I don’t know, just do something!!!!!
Mmmm.
@ Robert Peffers – spot on. I disagree with Craig Murray on this issue too. His blog seems now to be infested with Scotland in Union types who are busy tearing up their SNP membership cards in disgust. There are a few of those on here too.
Recent revelations about SCL show they use the online community to spread disaffection with independence. They sow doubt and aim to prevent people from voting. I think Craig has allowed them a platform. It’s a pity because I was enjoying following his thoughts, and those of other commenters, on the Skripal poisoning. Many interesting insights will now be lost in an anti-SNP fest.
I we’re lucky Scots law might rule in favour of the Prof not being extradited then the ball goes straight into the Tory governments hands as to whether they make a legal challenge against Scots law and attempt to overturn any decision
None of this might help the Prof in the end but politically it would hammer a very big nail into the Tories coffin if they do it..which unfortunately I believe they will, not to achieve any justice but to once again demonstrate their own power over Scotland
The poor prof means nothing to them at all in any of this
Once again when it comes to England versus Scotland it’s about Rebellious Scots to crush and there’ll always be an England and England shall be bullies
I think that’s how the song goes
Aamer Anwar is an Snp member and highly respected civil rights lawyer. The fact he’s representing the Catalan professor I suspect is no coincidence.
Remember all the frantic complaining about the Snp and the moratorium over fracking? They were right to proceed the way they did – and Nicola is doing the right thing again. If you are in any doubt read her statement. She’s not a stupid nor reckless politician.
A lot of questions today here on Wings like is sedition or rebellion a crime in Scotland. The answer is No. Others such as can the government intervene (or I’ll tear my card up) the answer is No.
If you really want to hear a clear explanation of the process for a EAW in Scotland I recommend you listen to this clip from GMS today. First half is an interview with Prof. Clara Posanti on why she left Spain and why she returned to Scotland.
Next is the role of politicians (none) and the judiciary and finally a top human rights lawyer explains the in and outs of the extradition process.
link to drive.google.com
It is 10 minutes long but very much worth a listen if you want to educate yourself even a little in this matter.
FWIW my opinion is that their is NO chance of Prof Ponsanti being extradited from Scotland for too many reasons to mention.
@Thepnr
I don’t think so either. First there’s the hearing, then even if that goes the wrong way, there’s the normal appeal. Meanwhile political pressure such as Blackford’s, and he’s in the right place to do something about it at Westminster. And after an appeal there may be firther appeals. Plus perhaps action in the EU parliament who are feeling their oats these days. Wouldn’t like to be Posanti all the same, but she had courage last year, and presumably will again.
My main concern is that Spain is deliberately provoking the Catalan people back on to the streets and using the same violence we all witnessed during the referendum vote.
I’m concerned that they are trying to stir up the populace to react violently in order to provide justification for a huge backlash including direct rule and jailing of many more high profile Independence politicians as well as activists.
Only the EU can stop this or at least bring Spain back under control, they really better do something soon or everything may get a lot lot worse for the people living in Catalonia and Spain.
Wow, I get busy with other things for a couple of days and there’s a whole new nest of hornets urging us to revolution and to hell with the consequences.
Like it worked out so well for the Catalans, who signed a piece of paper then evidently didn’t have a plan of how to meaningfully follow-through.
Unless of course these well-anticipated legal challenges to the hollow Spanish “democracy” in European courts is the follow-through, at least for the smarter Catalans who didn’t just passively sit around waiting to be scooped-up and carted off to jail.
The indy movement these days isn’t short of false friends, it seems. A lot of busy-bee splitters, frantically latching on to whatever the diversion du jour happens to be.
Whereas there’s only one thing that really matters, and we all know what that is.
Capella @ 9.43 I agree completely with what you have said.
I meant to include this link on my last post. Puigdemont will be kept in a German jail after todays hearing.
Puigdemont
Check out Murdo Frasers Tweets, Oh and Scott Arthur wants the prof arrested and jailed (because she broke the law) do the brackets in a silly wee girl voice it’ll make more sense
Ken500,
“Maybe Spain should change to FPTP.”
There we go again.
Anyone who knows how Westminster MPs are elected knows that “FPTP” is extremely undemocratic and unrepresentative.
Hopefully not a double post, the link to the article about Puigdemont being jailed.
link to archive.li
Dr jim 9.46pm. They will only bully us for so long Dr.jim. Then the worm will grow poisonous fangs and bite the barstewards.
I do not think Scotland has any laws against rebellion. Any there may have been would relate to the Jacobite rebellion and its aftermath eg Dress Act
The statutes relating to sedition were removed in 2011.
So if the Arrest warrant accuses the professor of either of these then they have no equivalent in Scots Law therefore extradition would fail.
The President’s warrant also listed misappropriation of public funds – he used public funds to hold the, illegal, referendum. If this is part of the arrest warrant for the professor then it might, faint might, result in extradition BUT if it did then, as I understand it, the Spanish could only try her on that charge.
It’s not just here, FM being bombarded by Yoon nutters today
strangely most of them don’t form sentences well
pERHipS ThAy ur mAChEeNs
JEEZO!
Firstly, Ian Blackford (quoted well above) stated in his letter that “rebellion” is not a crime under Scots Law.
Secondly, anybody who comes on here to comment, and within his/her/its first half dozen comments, literally attacks other commenters, SHOULD BE IGNORED AND NOT REFERRED TO.
Is it so difficult? We know who they are; hurt them by ignoring.
RJS 10.09pm.”they didn’t have a plan on how to meaningfully follow it through . You’ve obviously not heard the phrase ‘ with a ballot paper in one hand and an armalite in another.
The “independent” Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.
So called “human rights lawyers” included. They trouser hundreds of thousands while people starve in Scotland.
Thepnr says:
26 March, 2018 at 9:51 pm
“FWIW my opinion is that their is NO chance of Prof Ponsanti being extradited from Scotland for too many reasons to mention.”
I predict with 100% confidence that Prof Ponsanti will be extradited.
@Bobp
I keep my fangs on stands in the spare room Bob, made in Japan but sometimes….Oooh! I think you know what I mean
@Bobp
“You’ve obviously not heard the phrase ‘ with a ballot paper in one hand and an armalite in another.”
You have me a tad confused there, care to expand on that?
You’ve obviously not heard the phrase ‘ with a ballot paper in one hand and an armalite in another.
Can I bring my lightsaber?
@ TheBuchanLoony Thx 🙂
Rock 10.31pm. Dont agree with 95% of your posts Rock, but yep the Scottish judiciary are london bought and owned. The monkeys working for the organ grinders.
Heedtracker. Bring two.thats all we’ll need lol
Thepnr @ 22:05,
I’m sure all of us heartily wish for a peaceful way forward for the Catalans and Spain, but given the Rajoy regime’s brutal intransigence and cowardly hiding behind “legality”, it’s not at all hopeful.
I think that you then have to appreciate that in the circumstances the only possible way forward for the Catalans will necessarily be a very rough ride for a time, and that is what they themselves are now expecting to have to endure.
To expose, by their challenge and the anticipated hardline reaction, the Rajoy regime’s fundamental lack of legitimacy in Catalonia. Not least for all Catalans themselves. No-one will be able to look away, which is the precise intention, but it won’t be pleasant viewing either.
That’s just the way it will have to be, alas.
But with all the sympathy in the world, none of it must deflect us from our own journey either. Our situation isn’t the same, and our own best way forward likewise.
Legerwood @ 22:17,
It’s always possible of course that the Spanish don’t realise that the legal system here is different from that in England.
Heh, heh.
Thepnr 10.36pm. If I cared to expand on that. I’d be incriminating myself in a court of “english/Guantanamo bay law.
Liz g says: 26 March, 2018 at 8:37 pm:
“Anybody know if we “still “ have – Rebellion – laws ?
Apologies if it’s been posted already….trying to catch up and may have missed it?”
Well that depends, Liz g.
I have posted many times on the matter of what was the situation in Scotland from 1320 onwards and what the reality, as opposed to the differing perceptions, of what rebellion was and what English history told us it was.
I usually didn’t mention the bit between 1320 until the English Parliament’s rebellion in 1688 when the English assumed that the Jacobites were the rebels when the truth was the English parliamentarians had rebelled and deposed their king while Scotland was still an independent kingdom.
To relate that back to rebellions the Battle of Culloden in 1745 was getting on for 40 years after the Treaty of Union and the English were still murdering Scots.The bit below is just as mixed up and English dominated but here is a brief history that covers it:-
I’m beginning to think that when some unionists visit the Anne Frank House their first thought is, ‘good the law prevailed’.
I don’t mind anyone complaining here that their views are not being heard. That must just mean the Rev or his Sentient Cyber Ultrabots have moderated their comments into oblivion. (A very rare thing indeed) and that’s not people here causing it. Otherwise, I can read every comment anyone has posted. They don’t get scribbled over or anything, The thread doesn’t run out of ‘cyberpaper’ no-one is preventing their views from being read.
If complainers read the rules about commenting up there ^ in the “About Us” section, or took time to digest the Rev’s very interesting “Open Comment Policy” they would discover that complaining on this forum is pissing into the wind and more importantly, they’d understand why.
link to bit.ly
I can only assume these posters actually mean “I don’t post anything relevant and have nothing to say – but I’m bored and want to read different comments” Well Btl isn’t a toy for their delectation. The only cure for their ailment is for more lurkers to drop a post or two. There you go – they not only hate the regulars here, they despise all other readers for not entertaining them. I believe that’s a few hundred thousand or so owe them a personal apology.
Dive on in, the water’s lovely, don’t mind the pond life.
Jfngw.jeez mate you got that right .
jfngw says:
26 March, 2018 at 10:52 pm
I’m beginning to think that when some unionists visit the Anne Frank House their first thought is, ‘good the law prevailed’.
At least one thought about it and then decided to smear FM Sturgeon with it all, btl, WoS.
Oops! Meant to post about the Assimilation Act in my brief history but missed it so here’s the link:-
link to en.wikipedia.org
It’s apparent that peeps are posting comments, without reading the comments that have been posted since they last looked in.
At 10.27pm, I commented,
“Firstly, Ian Blackford (quoted well above) stated in his letter that “rebellion” is not a crime under Scots Law.”
The “quoted well above” was,
“It is deeply disappointing that as part of this pursuit of pro-Catalan independence politicians a former Minister, who is a respected academic in Scotland, now faces charges of rebellion – a charge which is not recognised in Scots law.”
That was in the comment at 8.44pm,
link to wingsoverscotland.com
And if you want an external link,
link to thenational.scot
The only thing that the Spanish Government have to beat those that seek Independence in Catalonia is that the Spanish Constitution says that Spain is indivisible.
That’s the only “law” the Catalans have broken, there was no criminality in the organising of the Independence Referendum or by supporters of Independence before and during the referendum vote.
The only criminality I witnessed was by state police brought in from outside Catalonia in order to disrupt the referendum. They battening innocent voters, confiscated ballot boxes intimidated people on the streets with rubber bullets.
Well the main difference between Catalonia and Scotland is that there is no constitution in the UK that forbids a referendum, provided we stay within the law they cannot stop us having one either. I admire the courage of the Catalans who with their hands held in the air are right now taking beatings from Spanish police with batons for their temerity to want their Independence.
Those that support Independence for Scotland, I hope would show the same resolve in the face of attacks such as those we can witness going on now. We will win by persuading enough fellow Scots that Independence is best for Scotland and win peaceably.
That’s all it will take. Nothing more, nothing less.
Heeddtracker 10.57pm aye yon snp are bad.did they no kill Ann frank, cos Alistair (the tory darling)says we ur aw natzis…….c’monn what tube with hauf a brain could still believe this brit propaganda sh**e?.
link to catalannews.com
Hunko noted that the crime of rebellion is not a “European crime” and that any country is obliged to extradite an individual accused of rebellion. According to him, “Spain is the only European country that has this pre-democratic crime.” What’s more, the leader of the far left-wing party said that Puigdemont’s detention is “clearly motivated by political reasons.”
Watching the stuff our unionist toryboy clowns are coming out with now about Catalonia, red and blue, here in a Scotland UK region that’s about to have our EU citizenship ripped up under our noses, its even clearer why the Britnats are quite giddy with the excitement of it all.
And still nothing for my Slovene girlfriend, which is pretty shocking considering he is the instant beeb gimp go to, in Scotland. for all their Constitutional law expert toryboy SNP bad stuff.
link to twitter.com
@Bobp says:
“If I cared to expand on that. I’d be incriminating myself in a court of “english/Guantanamo bay law.”
Talk of Armalites on Wings as you did is probably best left unsaid then in any context relating to Scottish Independence.
Thepnr @ 22:36,
An old IRA slogan. Well past its sell-by-date now, but still beloved of faux revolutionaries. (Wherever they pop up, like toadstools after the rain.)
(But of course you knew all that, you sly old fox. =grin=)
From Stu’s twitter, Basque National Party demands release of Catalan separatists and refuses to pass Rahoy budget.
link to twitter.com
Robert Peffers@9.11pm
Yet another example of all roads but one, leading to a courtroom.
That Continuity Bill really has been a game changer, just the threat of affirming Sovereign power as with Scots people, has the WM unionists in a massive flap.
It must be emphasised again…Brexit has NOT been confirmed yet, so as the law stands, Legislative Consent from Scotland MUST be given to proceed with Brexit as things stand.
Even WM acknowlege this fact, otherwise, why are they holding loads of meetings with the ScotsGov in a desperate attempt to get Legislative Consent from them ?
Talk about an inconvenient elephant in the room….!
Thepnr 11.15pm. Lets hope we can do it by the (un -interfered) ballot box then.
RJS 11.15PM. REST assured Robert unlike others in here, I’m definitely not fake.
Rock (28th February – “Here come the monsters again”):
“There is ZERO chance that Saint Theresa will allow us to hold an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.
There is a 1% chance that establishment lawyer Nicola will dare defy her and hold an illegal referendum.
Why would she and the rest of the SNP leadership want to go into exile in Belgium when they are doing fine here and at Westminster?
Before there is a flood of posters claiming that Scotland can hold an independence referendum whenever it wants to, the fact is that it has never yet done so without Westminster’s approval.
You can only prove me wrong if and when it does.”
Bobp says:
26 March, 2018 at 10:41 pm
“Rock 10.31pm. Dont agree with 95% of your posts Rock, but yep the Scottish judiciary are london bought and owned. The monkeys working for the organ grinders.”
Nobody has to agree with what I post but at least you have the decency to acknowledge something you do agree with.
@Bobp
I think that is the only way Bobp, any other way that involves violence of any sort would not have my support.
It would likely last decades and no guarantee of anything. Might even kill off any hope of Independence for good. That’s just my opinion and we are very close already following the democratic route so why would we chose to do something so different now?
That would be the end of the SNP for starters which is nothing compared to the carnage that a violent struggle for Independence would bring.
Ever consider that?
rock
better things to do than prove you wrong. You can do that all by yourself.
ARE YOU A FRUSTRATED EX MSP, Councillor, journalist or wannabe?
I think you should be told!! lol
Robert J. Sutherland says:
26 March, 2018 at 10:48 pm
“””Legerwood @ 22:17,
It’s always possible of course that the Spanish don’t realise that the legal system here is different from that in England.
Heh, heh.”””
………………….
Well they should know given all the world-wide publicity about Scots Law in the lead up to the Megrahi case.
But if they have forgotten then they are about to be reminded.
If malfeasance is their only recourse then that brings the political dimension, which already has a significant role in this case, front and centre… big time.
Rock @ 23:31,
Aye, right. Yawn.
(You could be the world’s best hope for a cure to insomnia, y’know.)
Bobp @ 23:27,
Oh aye? Ye’ll soon be off to Spain, then, like the (real) heroes of ’36?
Byeee…
RP edit ’46 Culloden, ’45 Glenfinnan. Otherwise Rock will be on..
geeo at 1117pm,
You are right. The slightest sign of Scotland asserting sovereignty causes the British nationalists to go all funny. Having watched the stage 3 debate on the continuity bill, I have to say, the venom that was evidenced from Tory non-entity Tompkins and his unionist cabal, betrays the fear that Westminster has. They were raging.
You are also right regarding legislative consent. Westminster is desperate to get it, because although they ‘technically’ could ride roughshod over Sewell, to do so, would effectively re-write the rules – that is, ‘how things are handled’ on a day to day basis – a concept which makes up part of the ‘unwritten constitution’ they like to brag of. Once Westminster crosses that line, then it is hard for them to still insist that Scotland must still however, obey the rules. Indeed, it would make their stance untenable. Imagine how it would look, the parliament in London overriding the Scots democratically elected parliament, in order to forcibly remove Scotland and Scots from the EU, AGAINST THEIR WISHES.
Westminster is trying desperately to pretend they really don’t care what the Scots parliament (and Wales) says or does, but in reality, it is causing them headaches. The degree of support for the continuity bill (Labour, lib-dem, green and SNP), will have the clowns in Downing street worried. They really did NOT expect that.
I’m sure the lying Tories in London would happily fire their chief bag carrier, Mundell, if they had anybody they could replace him with. But they don’t. So, they (and Scotland) are stuck with possibly the most inept, pathetic Government official in world history.
Nobody has to agree with what I post but at least you have the decency to acknowledge something you do agree with.
You only have the three “posts” to post Rock, Sturgeon bad, Rab Peffers v v bad, The National is extra v v double bad.
And that’s it.
Classic Rock:D
If you are a Scotland in Union chancer Rock, you should all be asking yourself why, if this farce union of yours is so healthy, you have all reduced yourselves to shitty wee frauds and shyters, in your more enlightened moments.
Thepnr ‘ll.35pm. Oh I’ve well considered that.And as a consequence of growing up in ireland with an irish dad and a Scots mum. And as i do a brill irish and Scottish accent, I’ve seen what the sectarian sh**e does. Funnily enough I’ve only ever experienced sectarian hatred from ulster and Scots unionists.
rock stays on for about 2 hrs max then disappears. He/she’s late tonight obviously forgot to put his clock forward an hour.
Spain is showing to the people of Scotland the venom of the unitary colonialist mind set. This will help Scotland’s cause as the people who we need to persuade the case for Independence will see the nasty vindictive side of the tories such as Tompkins. Just shows how worried they are.
Await Davidson shouting to support democracy– when she realises the arrest warrant will be thrown out.
Heedy another hard shift you put in sittin in yer wee Stinky BedSit in yer underpants with Peffers.
Perra weirdos
Madrid is on a collision course with human rights as enshrined in the ECHR and mirrored by the ECJ.
EU politicians can and have ignored that, and for pragmatically justifiable political reasons till now.
However, the hubris of Madrid has prevented it from seeing that their EU colleagues have merely given them a temporary space in which to do the democratically right thing. They have missed that one off opportunity.
It has not happened and now the full force of EU law must be brought to bear on Madrid’s indefensible flaunting of those human rights.
Whether Catalan remains in Spain or not, I cannot see how Spain’s ultimate exit from the EU (short of a remarkable and unlikely regime change) can be avoided.
No, Spain will join the UK and Turkey as the third once major imperial power to occupy the periphery of Europe unable to come to terms with the loss of their imperial past.
Robert Louis @ 23:49,
That just about sums it all up, RL.
A lot of Tory bravado and posturing going on, but I also reckon that in private they are very worried indeed.
@Bobp
It’s only sensible to be careful of what you say on Wings. It’s not just posters and Independence supporting lurkers that read it. Most political journalists and a great many Scottish politicians also read it.
Why do you think so many British Nationalists with a voice in the media describe Wings as a hate-fest and a hotbed of vile anti English Natzees? It maybe because some posts are like that, not many and anybody could have put them up including the Wings accusers themselves.
Best though that genuine posters such as yourself swerve that particular trap and stick to being positive in their thinking of how Scotland can become Independent. I don’t see any room for discussion of Armalites on Wings Over Scotland.
I’d rather we keep it that way.
Ledgerwood @ 11.35
What does Malfeasance mean?
kinters says:
27 March, 2018 at 12:02 am
Heedy another hard shift you put in sittin in yer wee Stinky BedSit in yer underpants with Peffers.
Perra weirdos
Again, is this really what it takes, Scotland in Union exemplars of great British decency and probity?
Even your ham tough guy jockenese is ridiculous. But it may all still work. You never can tell with treamGB.
@robert louis11.49pm
That is precisely the beauty of the Continuity Bill, it is basically a legal enforcement tool for the Scottish Legislative Consent Motion.
Yet again, the SNP SG has cleverly used the powers it does have, to create a work-around those it does not fully have, changing a “convention” which can be tactically ignored by WM, into a weapon which has the potential to bring down the union itself should WM try to ignore said convention.
The fracking moratorium being a noteable other example.
Cannot wait to see the latest share dividend on those 10,000 shares i bought in a leading popcorn company a few years back…! (Hehe)
Worth a read from the point of view of someone at the demonstration in Barcelona last night in which apparently over 90 were injured including 22 police though some doubt is expressed there.
link to barbaryfigs.com
Thepnr 12.04am. Point taken. But still infuriates me the way we as a people and a country are sh*t upon. And have no say on a world/European stage.
Liz G,
Malfeasance;
“Intentional conduct that is wrongful or unlawful, especially by officials or public employees. Malfeasance is at a higher level of wrongdoing than nonfeasance (failure to act where there was a duty to act) or misfeasance (conduct that is lawful but inappropriate”.
@Thepnr
The people who are involved in alternative methods for their version of Independence for Scotland don’t post on WOS, they don’t post anywhere, it’s kinda a secret so I wouldn’t worry about them, I’m quite sure posters on WOS aren’t those guys
Frankfurter Allgemeine saying decision on Puigdemont won’t happen until after Easter holiday. There is a 60 day deadline and the detainee should stay in detention during that period.
For the German speakers:
link to faz.net
perhaps someone can sum this up better than me.
Robert j Sutherland 11.41. Your a mind reader rab. I’m off to tossa de mar (that’s in Catalonia rab) for 4 weeks in may in our caravan. I would send you a postcard.but mebbes naw.
Bobp @ 00:32:
Armour-plated version with optional turret, no doubt. =grin=
Or preferably with saltire at least, I trust.
(Pity about the P/C tho. Damn!)
@Dr Jim says: 26 March, 2018 at 9:46 pm:
“I we’re lucky Scots law might rule in favour of the Prof not being extradited then the ball goes straight into the Tory governments hands as to whether they make a legal challenge against Scots law and attempt to overturn any decision.
Might be wrong, Dr Jim, but I do not think Westminster they can legally challenge Scots law unless it is a matter that involves them. I’m sure that if they could they would have made it all English law by this time.
Smallaxe @12.23
Thanks x
We know what they’re like Robert if they can invent a way they will..like a statutary instrument removing Scotlands powers before we get them, or maybe Henry the Eighth might get an outing on this one, you know the Judge Dredd approach
*I am the law*
You know, I am onside with the Catalans, I was hoping the Irish might set precedents that would help Scotland, I’m thoroughly unconvinced that Russia carried out the Skripol attack, and the UK’S list of allies kinda reminds me of Westminster inducing people to slag off Scottish Independence in 2014. I hope Germany refuses to extradite Puigdemont, and yes, I do fear the consequences of Spain vetoing Scotland if we provoke a reaction, but fear or not, we should still protect Carla Ponsati if we can. Be lucky if we can mind, since the Home Office can expel our friends on a regular basis with impunity.
All of the above is true, and yet I wait, and wait, and wait, and wait for Scotland’s story to be the main event. I am sick and tired of this proxy Indy debate where we filter our own Independence and see it as a consequence of somebody else’s actions. The Catalans are not going to win Independence for Scotland, and nor are the Irish. The English aren’t going to rise up and do it either. If we want Scottish Independence it has to happen here in Scotland.
I don’t want to damage the SNP, but save me Jeebus, I just cannot figure out this meek and feeble mealy mouthed avoidance of the whole Independence subject. I mean, what the actual fk? ??
Right now, I am so angry I want to see Craig Murray heading up the YES2 campaign, and going the whole 9 yards with YES2 being a whole new political party.
We have one year to the chop, but merely 6 months until the EU finalises Brexit, then Brexit becomes the preserve of the 27 Nations of Europe to alter, not us. Scotland hasn’t even managed to enter the negotiations, so don’t kid yourselves we can slip in at the death and kill the culmination of 2 years of mind numbingly dull glacial exit negotiations between Barnier and Davis.
Am I panicking? You know what, no, but screw it, I’m going to say yes. Yes I’m panicking. I’m shitting bricks. We have 6 months to save our Country from Brexit and we have more to say about Russia being framed that we do about our own fkn sovereignty.
Craig Murray isn’t out to damage the SNP, Craig Murray hasn’t lost the plot. Craig Murray wants the SNP to get off its backside and get Scottish Independence and Scottish Sovereignty front and centre of the political debate, and stop playing cat and mouse with Scottish Independence, the EU, or Single Market. Craig Murray wants what I want. If you don’t see that, then it’s your affliction, not mine.
Until that happens, unless that happens, then I’m backing Craig Murray for YES2 President and leave the SNP to wallow in whatever it is they so like to wallow in.
We are out of time for wool headedness. We need firm command of sovereignty, Brexit, and Independence, and we need it now. Not a dispute with Russia or Madrid, but London.
The only way that this pedestrian amble towards some tangential control over powers being Brexited from Europe makes any sense to me is that the SNP is resigned to Brexit happening, resigned to Scottish sovereignty being walked all over, resigned to live under the BBC daily shite, and yet demand our gratitude and loyalty for its prudent governmental housekeeping.
I think we’re sorted. 10 out of 10 for Provincial Government. Congratulations and thanks. For Constitutional deliverance and an end to this cursed Union, over to you Mr Murray…
Links
link to indyref2.scot
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
link to petewishart.wordpress.com
link to st-andrews.ac.uk
Brexit official tasked with solving Irish border issue quits
link to archive.is
link to rt.com
link to bloomberg.com
link to gizmodo.com
link to catalannews.com
UK will ‘ensure’ Gibraltar is covered by Brexit deal, May says
link to archive.is
Brexit : sleeping dogs
link to eureferendum.com
link to skwawkbox.org
A Brexit Whistleblower Broke Down In Tears
link to archive.is
The border issue could still wreck Brexit talks. But no-deal would damage Ireland almost as much as it would Britain
link to archive.is
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
link to politico.eu
link to elnacional.cat
link to barbaryfigs.com
At the U.N., China and Russia Score Win in War on Human Rights
link to archive.is
link to vanityfair.com
Agree Breeks.
What annoys me is that independence is now all about Brexit and only Brexit.
Well its not, its about a hundred things ,broken vows, broadcasting, our wealth squandered, WMD, our industries, infrastructure, culture, etc, etc, etc,etc, and these vital reasons for independence are being ignored.
Where`s the passion gone.
It’s a pity they did not put more politicians in jail. Instead of letting them roam about causing trouble, They make the Law and break the Law. The Westminster crooks included. Pushing through legislation without the proper majority. Losing the vote and still pushing matters through without authority Disregarding Voters wished. Gerrymandering the vote. Plebiscites which should be declared null and void, according to International observers, because of the anomalies.
Total corruption. Making people’s lives harder and ruining the economy. The crooks should be brought to book. Not defended by lawyers out to act illegal to make money and promote themselves. Lie, after lie, after lie. Causing hostility. Committing perjury. Along with their associates.
The Brexit vote should be declared null and void breaking all standards of legality. Pollsters manipulating the vote for money. Total gerrymandering punishable by jail. Total corruption. Electoral Laws broken at every opportunity. Illegal non declared donations. Lie after lie after lie.
Johnston, Gove the rest of them should be charged and put in prison. For crimes against humanity. Wasting and embezzling £Billions of public money. Illegally sanctioning and killing people. Trying to start a wars. Illegally threatening people and other countries.. Lying and cheating. M15 collusion in criminality and survelliance. Johnston is an imbecile. Going around the world making trouble everywhere.. Like some others for personal gain. Sanctioning and killing people.
Msy and and Hedge fund manager and the rest of them will not be there much longer. If there is any justice. The Tories are dying out. Not much wonder. The member’s average age is over seventy males . Out of touch and out of time. They will get voted out soon. The rest of the unionists politicians are no better. Ignorant incompetehts. They could not make a bigger mess. Council elections in England May 3rd. Things might start hotting up. The rats in the sack might get their jotters with any luck.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.
P. William appoints a Brexit Secretary, former GCHQ employee, He is supposed to be non biased and impartial but is meddling in government affairs. Supposed to be an impartial head of State but isn’t. Going in trips to Israel and Palestine. After the Westminster administrstion caused all the trouble there. Balfour Agreement 1917. The illegal action of a military state. Before Universal Suffrage 1928.
The British Royals inter rivalry in Europe caused the 1WW. Intermarriage, Cousins married cousins. Q Victoria’s grandchildren. Her mother and husband were German. Migrants ‘The divine right to rule’ Milliions of deaths. It finished off the Royal dominance in Europe. A flu epidemic and sickness killed even more. They should apologise and commemorate. At any 11WW commemoration the Russians should be there. They saved the West, 26Million Russians died making the biggest sacrifice.
Since 1990’s the Russian administration has supported democracy, self determination and freedom for many countries including Scotland. Many ties. 150Million people/States that were in the Confedrration have achieved democracy, independence and freedom. Many for economic reasons. Putin has supported these changes. Brought economic changes and .reduced poverty in Russia 50%
No wonder Putin such a popular leader. Supporting freedom of the Press. Bring more prosperity and peace to Russia and the world. Keeping the thieving Oligarths who illegally stole Russian money out and in check. Crooks and criminals protected by the West. Illegally funding the right, the Tories and unionists parties. Making a total mess. Buying data, corruption and committing crime. NATO illegally camped on Russia border threatening peace and prosperity. Like some illegal politicians in the US and the EU. Self centred psychophants who want to line their pockets with embezzled public money. £Trns in debt. Enough is never enough for them. Funding illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Destroying the world economy.
Vote SNP/SNP for democracy and for change. Vote for Independence,
Mornin’ Nana
Just in time for the kettle. 🙂
Seems our betters are dead set on making the world a worse place as usual. After much deliberation and many, many bags of choccy raisins. I’ve come to the conclusion that for all their strategising, Machiavellian schemes and outright badness they’re basically just mental. Spoilt weans with really big toys and a me, masel’ and I attitude gone off reservation.
Wonder if there’s a naughty corner for stroppy world leaders and their meeja? Some place where they can be sent for a cool the feck down period.
As I said to Smallaxe last thread, it’s about time humanity got a grip. We’re giving mammals a bad rep these days.
Suckerman should be put in jail as well. For some lying cretins. Enough is never enough. Face mug shot. Little creep. Trying to rule the world. Dr NO.
Good morning Macart
Aye it’s pretty grim. Waking each morning to see what fresh horror the powers that be have dreamed up for the rest of us.
We need a superman type to take charge and beat the hell out of the present shower of idiots. A sort of hulk figure throwing and slamming Gove, Boris and the rest of them around.
link to youtube.com
And when the early birds have finished with Nana’s fine links –
how about a report on the Jewish demo yesterday supporting Corbyn.
link to archive.is
@jfngw says: 26 March, 2018 at 10:52 pm:
“I’m beginning to think that when some unionists visit the Anne Frank House their first thought is, ‘good the law prevailed’.”
That’s just another way of demonstrating a great truth that all authoritarian regimes like Westminster never, ever, acknowledge.
Regimes that claim they alone are sovereign are only sovereign because they say so. The undeniable truth is that ultimately, in all cases, the people are sovereign and the authoritarian regimes can only rule by tacit agreement of the people.
When the people decide the regime’s sovereignty is over history records this as a revolution. Yet it is nothing more than the people taking back the sovereignty that inherently belongs to them.
Which is, in effect, a description of democracy and it is why the Westminster claims of their overall sovereignty is proof positive that Westminster is defining itself as an undemocratic establishment.
@Nana
That clip never gets old. 😀
And yeah. Just like that would do nicely. 🙂
Excellent links as usual Nana, thank you. Not able to view archived ones as error message coming up.
It was hard reading about the police violence in Barcelona, especially the likelihood of it being created to appear instigated by the protesters. As a fairly regular visitor to Southern Spain to visit friends I’ve always been fully aware of the difference between local police and the Guardia. The latter to be very wary of as ending up in jail and questions asked later a real possibility.
I am humbled by the bravery of Catalan protesters who take to the street to protest. I’m not sure I would show the same determination in the face of such violence.
EU officials must send a clear message to Madrid that their continued membership is in doubt if they continue to flaunt human rights agreements they are signed up to.
As for the slow car crash that is Brexit I’m at a loss for anything meaningful to say. I mean ffs.
Nobody I speak to seems to have the slightest idea of the peril Scotland is facing because of course according to the BBC it was only a few nut cases that were having a wee protest at Holyrood on Friday about nothing to be worried about. Give me strength.
Liz g says:
27 March, 2018 at 12:05 am
Ledgerwood @ 11.35
What does Malfeasance mean?””
………………
Just saw your post but I think Smallaxe, at 12.23am, has already answered your question.
It has been weeks since the event in sleepy, provincial Salisbury juxta Porton Down. Russia is labelled as culpable but purely on what seems circumstantial evidence, nothing factual to link the terrible Putin to the alleged poisoning has been offered. But who needs facts when the free British press can fill in the gaps for the state with horror tales of Russian chemical devilry. The Skripals are officially dangerously ill or have they just been spirited away to shut them up.
News in Anglosaxondom is now so skilfully ‘managed’ in that nice PC way even Orwell’s imagination could not invent better.
All Hail the State Megaphone! Want to be a good citizen? Why not be an informant? There’s a cell right near you.
@Highland Wifie
Just checked archived links, working fine for me.
Try clearing your cache, if that doesn’t work restart your computer. I find that often works.
What do I want for my country?
I want the young to have free education and the freedom to travel the globe learning how others live and how different cultures treat the world.
I want the poor , the vulnerable protected and the old to enjoy the last years of life in safety.
I want the entrepreneurs given the chance to develop ideas and businesses.
I want a country that has a decent infrastructure and takes care of its beauty.
I want a country with friends around the globe .
I want decisions made in Scotland with the option of marching on parliament when they mess up.
I do not want WMDs on my doorstep polluting the beautiful Firth of Clyde.
I do not want the young of my country sent on illegal wars in distant places to kill and be killed – defend Scotland by all means but do not take the word of a third country that war is ever necessary .
I do not want a health service which only services the wealthy.
I do not want the BBBC , STV and so called Scottish newspapers to pretend they are the bringers of truth and cannot be challenged – in fact I do not want them at all.
@yesindyref2 says: 26 March, 2018 at 10:00 pm:
“Plus perhaps action in the EU parliament who are feeling their oats these days.”
Never a truer word,yesindyref2. If you carefully read the news you will find wee snippets inserted in odd places that are being deliberately played down by the SMSM and MSM.
For example a political bombshell hidden away on the BBC:-
link to bbc.co.uk
Basically it is the many items like this:-
“British companies may be frozen out of the European space industry after Brexit, the European Commission says, citing security concerns.”
There are many other such European science, technology, defence and security matters and by their
BRUKEXIT the United Kingdom will not be participating in the EU co-operation projects and that means jobs leaving the United Kingdom for Europe and these are all jobs of a high tech type.@Dorothy
That list should be on a poster.
Ottomanboi 8:49 am
You wrote “But who needs facts when the free British press can fill in the gaps for the state with horror tales of Russian chemical devilry. The Skripals are officially dangerously ill or have they just been spirited away to shut them up.
News in Anglosaxondom is now so skilfully ‘managed’ in that nice PC way even Orwell’s imagination could not invent better.”
… I suppose that the “British Press” are so good that they have managed to fool the leaders of all of the other liberal democracies (28 countries acting together and united) that expelled diplomats?
Alternatively, it could be that Russia is now judged to be acting irrationally, aggressively and ignoring all the charters they have signed – and that all those leaders in “the west” Have determined that they need to demonstrate unity and and common purpose?
A number of “wingers” are so intent on being “anti” anything the UK Government does that they now find themselves operating as apologists for the Russians whilst condemning the united approach of mature democracies around the planet – including Holyrood.
I am sure that will really help the cause for Scottish Independence. I despair.
@Sensibledave,
Would these be the same states that supported action against Libya for the non existent weapons of mass destruction ?
Only asking
May’s coming to hole up in Scotland. Another secret green hut visit in the vast estate. 3rd rate reject. Or a secret, haughty sojourn to the nearest hotel. There is always Skype. Illegally sanctioning and killing people. Embezzling £Billions of public money. Gerrymandering and illegal elections. The Tory – unionists. Brexit chaos and lies. Apalling behaviour. Lie after lie.
“The last 4 decades at least, have been an era of BBC led mainstream media malfeasance.”
Great links Nana!
My Glasgow caffè misto wouldn’t be the same without them:D
The Repentant Tory, great pub name.
link to truepublica.org.uk
But planet toryboy is never going to change.
link to thenational.scot
UPDATE
link to twitter.com
Here’s a thought…
Suppose Craig Murray did form a YES2 Party, and dedicated it to an Independent Scotland in the EU, thus leaving the SNP to dedicate itself to an Independent Scotland outside the EU with EFTA or whatever..
Suppose Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson came back with a bang as noble pro-Indy lieutenants unleashed to fight on a single issue Independence agenda.
The SNP suddenly has a safety valve for disgruntled Yessers who aren’t buying the softly softly approach, and both parties have the mutually supportive common objective of Independence which also accommodates a second preference in future elections, just as unionists can vote tactically for each other as they do now.
Give YES2 a few months to establish itself and gather momentum, then call a Scottish Election and secure an outright mandate either for a YES2 Referendum, plebiscite, or my preference, go straight for the jugular Sovereign Independence. That way the potentially divisive issue of Europe does not split the Indy vote but bolsters it, because every vote both in and out of Europe is still a YES vote, and we can all stop dancing around our handbags and get on with this Independence malarkey.
Once we are Independent, the lines are already drawn for a three way split in Scottish politics, pro and anti Europe, with Unionism slowly shrivelling up and withering away in the direct sunshine of an Independent Scotland, with our progressive sovereign Nation served by our free Parliament rightly and objectively debating the merits of European integration and where Scotland should be geopolitically.
Heedy and Peffers,,,why no attack on sensible dave?
Is it because he is one of the names in Your BedSit Land Book of Trolls.?
I see Bob Mack got involved,,another one of your invented names.
I noticed Peffers was up first this morning. Is Heedy having a long lie.?
Cmon Heedy, Peffers is sittin in his underpants waitin oan ye’.
@Dorothy Devine
Pretty much that. 🙂
I am sure that will really help the cause for Scottish Independence. I despair.
Join the club sensible d.
Instead of getting on with the job of running Scotland properly, our government here in your Scotland region, has to spend all its energy trying to cope with England’s Brexit catastrofuck of millenium.
What is Brexit anyway sensible d? just another old Etonian toryboy power struggle, what David Cameron and his creepshow thought would defeat the toryboy Britnat zoomer wing of your ghastly party.
Thank you so much Sensible d and all the rest of the 17+ million English nats out there.
Its not just SNP Scots gov in Holyrood ofcourse sensible d, you toryboy catastrophe.
link to thecourier.co.uk
@Nana. Tried both but still getting Error 503 Service Unavailable message. Never quite sure if it’s my iPad so will try on laptop.
Thanks again.
I’m an invention. Can I patent myself? I might try something harder next time,like a brain for Kinters.
@ Highland wifie – I get the same error message.
@Thepnr says: 26 March, 2018 at 10:05 pm:
“Only the EU can stop this or at least bring Spain back under control, they really better do something soon or everything may get a lot lot worse for the people living in Catalonia and Spain.”
Your concerns are justified, Thepnr, and shared my most Wingers but perhaps, you are missing an important point that is much misunderstood.
For very good reason the EU member states all have a veto and that veto applies to Spain. Thus, if the EU parliament were to try to debate and vote to prevent Spain’s Government actions then Spain could just veto and action. The EU doesn’t work that way.
It works behind the scenes by the other member states applying persuasion and pressure upon an out of line member state and convincing them they have more to lose by going against the flow. This is why Westminster has agreed some things that many voters don’t agree with. Of course this is probably what is really behind the Westminster
BRUKEXIT push in the first place.The EU is both democratic and consensual in operation but sometimes the consensus needs a little persuasion. So even if it seems to many Scottish voters that the EU is doing nothing it simply isn’t true. See also my previous comment about news items hidden away by the MSM & BBC about EU projects that the UK will be thrown out of post a UK exit. That’s behind the scenes persuasion in action.
You won’t see any reports about Spain being stopped by EU parliamentary decisions but Spain will either comply or their government will suffer.
Another example is how certain factions in the past were claiming Spain would veto any indy Scottish request to become an EU member state but then Spain officially denied they would veto a Scotland’s membership.
That’s how consensus works – it just doesn’t rely upon all members being of one mind – it sometimes has to persuade some to change their mind.
sort this is O/T but WTF?
link to bbc.co.uk
BBC Douglas Fraser article about Scottish Fishermen and Brexit/CFP. Scroll to the last few paragraphs:
So once Britain is out of the CFP, the allocation of quotas could be changed radically?
Nearly right. The allocation of quota is not down to Brussels. National governments choose the way they wish to allocate quota, so the Scottish government could make such changes without leaving the CFP.
Why doesn’t it do that?
I assume, from that question, that you haven’t looked at the political map of Scotland recently.
Glib last line doesn’t exactly dispel the myth or help to explain the true situation where Scotland has been shafted!!!
Dorothy Devine at 0905. Simply but beautifully put!
Sneaks in, on tiptoes.
“Are the bampots away?”
Wait, no, there’s still one eejit lingering. Closes door on leaving.
Its working now.
link to eureferendum.com
No one outside the all-embracing rose-tinted filters erected by government is under any illusion that a Canada-style trade agreement will be anything but a disaster for many UK operations.
Into the next decade, we can expect serious losses in financial services, pharmaceuticals and chemicals, aviation and motor manufacturing, and food processing. Even tourism may take a hit, while fishing and farming will struggle to survive.
That fact that this will now be a slow-motion train-wreck, rather than the “big-bang” disaster so often predicted, means that the media can stay asleep and the politicians can pretend it isn’t happening. Even if the losses trigger a recession (or worse), there are plenty of other economic factors which can be blamed. ”
Our imperial masters are going to charge us up front to drive on their roads too but they’ve even Brexit cocked that up,
“Being blocked from using PRS, however, could have major implications for the UK’s as yet undeclared plans for road charging and intrusive traffic enforcement systems. While the US has guaranteed that GPS is free to all users, that does not apply to governments wanting to exploit the technology for revenue-raising purposes. For the UK to go ahead with satellite-based road charging and similar schemes, it would need the PRS.”
BBC r4 vote tory Today show, starring Nic Robinson, never mentions any of the above, shock.
The National:
Here’s what you can expect from May’s visit to Scotland:
AS we start to relax ahead of a holiday weekend, let’s get in the mood with a little trip down memory lane and into one of those leafy suburbs I like to write about. Remember this?
“It’s great to have you as a boost to the campaign trail, and how are you finding it so far?”
“Well, thank you very much, and it’s great to be with you here and thank you for everything that you’ve done for Scottish Conservatives with your leadership. But it’s great to be in Scotland because, as we look ahead to this General Election, really it is, I think, the most important election the UK has faced in my lifetime and every single vote is going to count, and every vote for me and my team will be a vote to strengthen our hand in the Brexit negotiations. That will strengthen the Union, it will strengthen the economy and together Scotland and the UK will flourish, and when Scotland is flourishing the United Kingdom is flourishing.”
READ MORE: Facebook is selling us like meat … and we signed up to the bargain
“And I guess as well it’s about making sure that as we leave the European Union our country comes together and we’re stronger as a Union?”
“Absolutely, I think now is the time for us to be working together, not pulling apart. That’s why we need to have a strong mandate, a strong negotiating hand in Europe, when I sit around the table with those prime ministers and presidents and chancellors of the other European countries and showing a United Kingdom that has come together and is determined to get the best possible deal. And you only get the best possible deal for Britain in Europe with a strong and stable government in Westminster and with strong and stable leadership, and that’s from me and my team.”
“Well, let’s take that strong message round the doors. Let’s go!”
The first prize for the hammiest TV clip of our time (still available on YouTube) goes to Theresa May and Ruth Davidson. For the purposes of a well-edited newspaper I’ve actually had to tidy up a bit the Prime Minister’s grammar and syntax, since we live under a leader of the UK who does not naturally speak in coherent sentences.
The dialogue between the two women reminds me of one between the Mekon and the Treens (you can tell I was brought up on Dan Dare). In the full version of the clip, for example, May always addresses Davidson as Ruth, while Davidson addresses May as Prime Minister. So, in an unscripted aspect, they reveal their true relationship of mistress and minion.
The conversation I’ve quoted formed the prelude to their canvass in the billionaire bit of Banchory during the Westminster election campaign of June 2017. This came right at the start of the campaign, but already the shrewd observer might have discerned the disaster awaiting the Tories. From the woeful lack of quality and coherence in the argument, what came across was a party trying to manipulate a situation it actually could not control, so that the constant repetition of the words “strong” and “stable” shone through only as forced and hollow. When May and Davidson did set off round the doors they found nobody at home, or at least nobody willing to talk to them. We may suspect the Prime Minister was secretly relieved: as the campaign went on, it grew clear how much she hated meeting real voters when she had sycophants on hand to butter her up. It did her no good in the end, but the woman is nothing if not shameless.
READ MORE: Theresa May’s Brexit jaunt to start in remain voting Scotland
On Thursday this week she is back in Scotland again. Of course she has popped in from time to time meanwhile, but only under the hermetic seals of the briefest of journeys from No 10 Downing Street to Bute House and straight back again. This time she can hardly avoid seeing actual Scots and hearing those dulcet tones. It is billed as part of a whistle-stop tour of the four nations of the UK, squeezed in on the last day before the Easter break, to sell the benefits of the Brexit deal, such as they are up to now.
Two questions at once arise about the Scottish leg of the journey, the first of which is: where will she actually go? I recall that when David Cameron as Prime Minister wanted to visit Holyrood he needed to enter and leave by the underground car-park in order to avoid unseemly scenes amid the protesters gathered round the front door. If May’s security staff have done their homework she can hardly be left to do a walkabout in Sauchiehall Street. She prefers to perform her (inevitably) set speeches against the background of a rent-a-crowd brandishing placards with approved slogans. Perhaps there are some rough sleepers who might be recruited in the city itself, against a suitable fee, but I fear most of the supporters may need to be bussed in from Newton Mearns.
Second question: what will she actually say? Despite her ministers’ attempts to trumpet a triumph in the past few days, the flimsy façade has already proved hard to prop up. This was, after all, a Brexit agreement only on the transitional issues, not in any sense a final deal, and even then not a fully complete agreement. On most matters at stake, the UK simply gave way to the EU position, following a pattern consistent since the negotiations began. The exception was Northern Ireland, but I can’t say anything useful about that here. More typical was the UK’s limp surrender on the question when it will cease to apply the common fisheries policy. This offers the EU every reason to expect it can continue to ride roughshod over the interests of Scottish fishermen in the future as it has done in the past, given how “expendable” they look from Westminster or Whitehall.
It seems unlikely that during her excursion May will be allowed to come face to face with Scots ready to pose the questions actually most relevant to the nation at the moment.
A big one is how we can avoid Brexit thwarting the deepest need of the Scottish economy, to raise its miserable rate of economic growth. For growth we need new technology, which we can invent. We need capital, which we can raise. But we also need labour, which we will not find from among an ageing population but only from immigration. The bigoted Tories’ aim of deterring and excluding immigrants works directly counter to our interests. And this is, of course, also closely connected with the Scottish Government’s aim of keeping us somehow in the EU’s single market with its free movement of labour.
It looks like May will come and go in the way she prefers: lecturing us word for word from her prepared script and stopping her ears to anything she does not want to hear. No doubt she will pepper her remarks with mentions of “our precious Union”, but the model of a Union she has in mind will be one where Scottish interests either conform to English interests or else are ignored. This is evidently part of what she means by strong and stable government, but nothing alters the fact that it has been weak and feeble from the start.
link to thenational.scot
Fishing rights are so important to the EU (Spain in particular) that they are willing to make concessions to Treeza’s Tories on other areas in brexit negotiations.
Yet some expect us to believe that Spain will veto Scottish membership and walk away from our fishing grounds with ZERO access, post indyref Yes vote !!
Aye…ok then…!!
@sensibledave
Re BritState and its media consider how both have lied about, libelled, slandered and in the case of the former connived with foreign governments against the cause of Scottish independence and measure that on a scale of trust.
Pretty low on my scale.
In dealings with UKGBNI we are have a pastmaster in the arts of deception and dysinformation. Read some history of the British empire.
As for the suckers who have swallowed the Brit hook, I despair….a little.
Kinters
I’ve been reading this site for quite a while now I don’t post often but I have occasionally and I’ve read posts I agree with posts I don’t agree with, folk I’ve thought might be a troll, might not be a troll, I tend to take posts at face value and make up my own mind and I expect most folk on here do the same thing.
This is a site for big boys and girls and you clearly don’t belong here, you’re acting like a spoilt child, your posts are boring, childish and not in the slightest bit funny so if you have nothing of value to say then say nothing.
You’ve made it obvious there’s certain posters on here you don’t like and I’m sure the feeling’s mutual so why don’t you grow up and just leave it at that, remember It’s better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you’re an idiot than open it and leave them in no doubt.
Graeme at 1022 – hear, hear!
kinters says:
27 March, 2018 at 9:55 am
Heedy and Peffers,,,why no attack on sensible dave?
Sensible d is certainly a toryboy that Scotland in Union zoomers will rush to defend indyRockinters2.
Scottish and English toryboys, bettertogether forever and ever, god save Strong and Stable:D
@louis.b.argyll says: 26 March, 2018 at 11:47 pm:
“RP edit ’46 Culloden, ’45 Glenfinnan. Otherwise Rock will be on.”
To misquote Frank Sinatra about Bing Crosby:-
Rock?
Who he?
Heedy and Peffers,,usual tactic, send in a couple of their “Names” from their BedSit Land Book of Trolls then the cowards Heedy and Peffers move in.
How many “Names” will you use today Heedy and Peffers?
You invent names, then sit in your underpants and have a conversation with yourselves.
We are onto you, ya perra eejits.
We are onto you, ya perra eejits.
Scotland in Union are a very odd crew indeed kinters2Rockindy.
link to facebook.com
The joy of fracking. Leeching methane, nearby a fracking site in australia.
Coincidence ?
Probably not.
@Nana
@Capella
Not working on laptop either. Geographical/BB provider block?
The UK seems to be heading for an ultra PC destination where every minority, interest group, self-styled community, belief system whether secular or religious is to be ring fenced by ‘counter phobic’ ordinances, any challenge being deemed ‘phobic’ in spirit and a threat to integrity, dignity and social harmony.
This allophobia will take a hatchet to free discussion, debate and exchange of ideas and perhaps truth itself. Or have we so relativised and trivialised the latter that few would care.
Liberal democracy is digging its own grave.
Breeks, brilliant post about Craig Murray.
Craig has put his personal safety on the line to expose the lies about the Skripal case, and may have even saved Syria and Lebanon from another helping of “ethical foreign policy”.
The days of Alex sitting down with David Cameron and getting a gentleman’s agreement on a legal referendum are long gone. We are dealing with mad Brexiteers and the DUP now.
The self-selecting clique on here dont want to hear these bad words.
Enjoying a lot of todays posts, some really interesting stuff.
Good advice to the lurkers being put off by the disagreeables, don’t let them, c’mon in and say something positive, even if its just hello;)
Love the list Dorothy.
Re the legal aspect of the EU Warrant being executed in Scotland and the 32 offences / jail time of over 3 years, which might mean it is legally executable here.
Surely Spain, just like Scotland, had to sign up to the ECHR’s act, and the ECJ, in order to benefit from all the EU laws and membership. So, if it clearly is not respecting these rules, i.e. in that it is failing to respect the right to lawful assembly, the right to freedom of political expression, they cannot have the use of the EU Warrant facility? as they are failing to comply, cherry picking in fact.
Re Craig Murray, I’m very glad he’s there, I believe he has an important point of view. I might not want too many people expressing the same view, but I think that view point needs aired. I think the course of action lies somewhere in between.
Nicola Sturgeon put the ball very firmly back into the YES movement’s camp at the last Conference. The Government in power has responsibilities – it cannot wear the grass root activist hat at the same time, that’s our job.
Someone posted, a bit disheartened and asked ‘where’s the passion’. Well its in all of the above, but this is the grinding bit now, and its not near the finishing line yet. Take heart, nae one does thrawn like us.
Aye yes fir aw that, one bit of decency at a time.
Just noticed that kinters is an anagram of Stinker…!
How apt for an utter shitehawk.
Still waiting on a single on topic post from these trolls pretending not to be trolls…it is actually hilarious to see how low brow this latest intake are.
@Liz g says: 27 March, 2018 at 12:05 am:
“Ledgerwood @ 11.35
What does Malfeasance mean?”
I started to type a comment on that request, Liz g and my connection to Wings went AWOL. Strangely I was still connected to the internet?
Anyway, After my connection to Wings came back:
Any requests on what a word means I auto-react, even if I know the derivation and meaning of the word, and I clicked to bring up my on-line dictionary definitions. I had to laugh at the first derivation:-
malfeasance – noun – Law
wrongdoing, especially (US) by a public official.
I really found the, “especially (US) by a public official.”, bit funny as I didn’t know that was a special USA connotation of the word – but it sure as hell makes good sense now.
Ottomanboi @ 08:49,
How’s the weather there in St. Petersburg, Vlad? It’s fairly dreich here in Glasgow the day.
A little known fact about Anne Frank – a page of her diary was recently found that is thought to be the very last entry: “It’s my birthday today. Dad bought me a drum kit.”
Alexander Litvinenko’s family must be slightly raging at the moment.
Reluctant Nationalist says:
27 March, 2018 at 11:33 am
A little known fact about Anne Frank – a page of her diary was recently found that is thought to be the very last entry: “It’s my birthday today. Dad bought me a drum kit.”
If that’s a joke, could it get you your collar felt by the cops, if someone reports it, like at Airdrie Sheriff Court lately?
*Badoom-tish*
Bob Mack
… after all the “run ins” you and I have had Bob, you must find it particularly ironic that you now discover that your life is a complete farce and, in reality, you actually only exist as a nom de plume of sensibledave!
The bit that I am struggling with is that I am, apparently, another variation of Heedy and Peffers too!
Anyway, can’t hang around too long, I have to write another comment under my Peffers “front” where I will be explaining, for the 749th time, why I prefer the carve up of unelected kings, queens, lairds and chieftains of 300 years ago – to the useless democratic, one person one vote process that we are forced to endure in these hopeless, modern times.
Reluctant Nationalist says:
27 March, 2018 at 11:33 am
A little known fact about Anne Frank – a page of her diary was recently found that is thought to be the very last entry: “It’s my birthday today. Dad bought me a drum kit.”
Scots Law seem to be saying that yes, you can laugh at murderers, mass murderers even, Reluctant Nationalist but not their victims, or rather make jokes about their victims?
So for example, this toryboy’s not committed an offence? Questions questions, officer.
link to archive.is
The bit that I am struggling with is that I am, apparently, another variation of Heedy and Peffers too!
Hey that’s Scotland in Union for you sensible d. They’re your extracurricular non BBC led msm Scottish allies, in your war on Scottish democracy.
Fun aren’t they.
Google Scotland in Union, if youre a bit puzzled down there on the south coast of merry olde England sensible.
They’re famous in Scotland for swamping all and any newspaper readers letters section with SNP Out, UKOK forever stuff, you might call them the green ink brigade. And anywhere non yoon tory online ofcourse.
With friends like these sensible d….
Reluctant Nationalist says:
27 March, 2018 at 12:11 pm
*Badoom-tish* M’Lud
More like *hands over fat envelope and taps side of nose* M’lud.
Reluctant Nationalist says:
27 March, 2018 at 12:33 pm
More like *hands over fat envelope and taps side of nose* M’lud.
You could try that Reluctant Nationalist. Who knows.
@Sensibledave,
Yes I know keeping up with your 3 no de plumes is demanding ,but could you get around to answering my observation on the decision making of these democratic states you spoke of.
In anticipation
Yours
Whoever.
Heed, I can’t tell whether you’re aroused by the absurd possibility of me ending up in court for repeating a joke David Mitchell told on Radio 4, or whether you’re expressing a disingenuous sincerity to mock the state of the country we live in.
Either way, I’m impressed.
Reluctant Nationalist says:
27 March, 2018 at 12:52 pm
Heed, I can’t tell whether you’re aroused by the absurd possibility of me ending up in court for repeating a joke David Mitchell told on Radio 4, or whether you’re expressing a disingenuous sincerity to mock the state of the country we live in.
Either way, I’m impressed.
I’m not trying to impress you. You’re questions may well echo what happened in Airdrie Sheriff Court. All it takes is your “joke” about one Nazi mass murder victim to cause offence, to just one person, like what happened below.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Maybe a bit of prison time would be good for me. Could write about my struggle, without the distraction of internet pornography tempting me away every time I wrote the word ‘fist’. Free food, too.
Reluctant Nationalist says:
27 March, 2018 at 1:33 pm
Maybe a bit of prison time would be good for me. Could write about my struggle, without the distraction of internet pornography tempting me away every time I wrote the word ‘fist’. Free food, too.
Nice. Mein Kampf gags are fine, I’d guess, in Law. Mock and laugh at nazis, or any mass murderers. Do it to their victims, well shower time in the big house is meant to be, let’s say challenging Reluctant Nationalist.
Challenge Hanukkah.
Bob Mack 12.39
My view is that the reaction that we are seeing with umpteen states working together to make a point to Russia – is probably more about the situation that Russia has created over the last few years than just the Salisbury incident.
Crimea, Ukraine, state sponsored doping, election meddling, cyber crimes, etc, point to a state that has torn up its commitments to the rest of the world through the various charters it has been a signatory to. The Salisbury incident is just the latest in chain of despicable acts that demonstrate that Russia has gone “rogue”.
For international relationships to work, there has to be trust. We may not agree with each other but we agree a way of working with each other. Clearly, the rest of the world has come to the conclusion that there needs to be a very clear message sent to Russia about the unity and resolve of the west, the EU, NATO etc.
Do you think the Russians will have anticipated the response they are getting? Like many, I am surprised (and pleased) by the concerted and coordinated response we are seeing. If the Russians were “just testing” to see whether it was possible to divide/isolate a country in the west/EU/Nato … then they might have received an answer that they were not anticipating and they may reconsider other similar acts. We will have to wait and see.
With respect to you asking me about my thoughts on Libya, I am not sure what you mean. I have previously supported the decision to support the Libyans trapped on the coast in Benghazi with air power on humanitarian grounds if that is what you meant. I also supported our response in Bosnia and for the Yazidis in Iraq. I did support our response in the Falklands but I didn’t support our second Iraq invasion at the time we invaded. That is not to say that loonie Sadam wouldn’t have done something else (like invade another country) that would have got my support for a reaction.
How about you Bob? If you controlled British Armed Forces ….
Would you have let the Bosnian Muslims die?
Would you have let the Libyans die in Benghazi?
Would you have let the Yazidis be slaughtered in Iraq
Would you have let all those innocents die when you, as the decision maker, knew you had the power to save those 10s of 1000s lives?
Would you have let all those innocents die when you, as the decision maker, knew you had the power to save those 10s of 1000s lives?
Usual tory carry on sensible d. How comes Saudi Arabia’s greatest UK ally, after buying tens of billions of UK weaponry, is a lovely land of happiness and peace?
Worst thing in all UK warfare all over the place, for Scotland, is England using Scotland as its nuke WMD dump.
Heedy
I am not interested in your deflections and “whataboutery”.
The Yazidis? The libyans trapped in Benghazi? The Muslims in Bosnia? Answer the question Heedy.
I understand that your personal policy is that they should be left to their fate. I am guessing that your personal policy would have directly lead to the genocide of the Yazidis, the libyans in Benghazi and the Bonian Muslims. How many deaths is that that I chalk up against your name Heedy? 500,000, 1,000,000?
Critically, if I understand you correctly, your stance is that because of “our past” we shouldn’t even try and help.
Hopefully and thankfully, we will never have to rely on your judgement on matters such as these. In my view “just let ’em die” should not be our default foreign policy.
@Sensibledave,
No Dave, I would probably not. However would you have invaded the middle east on a dodgy dossier ? Interesting moral dilemma.
This country is steeped in the blood of others Dave. Empires don’t get built by kindness you know.
Every time we have invaded another country since the 1700s it was seemingly to protect the natives or on a pretext of some atrocity or other arranged by ourselves of course. You can’t escape your history Dave.
Now, final point. Did we leave Libya or Iraq or indeed Bosnia in a better place after we had saved them from themselves? Maybe not eh ?
sensibledave says:
27 March, 2018 at 3:30 pm
Heedy
I am not interested in your deflections and “whataboutery”.
All of these wars you want the UK to stop and then save people, because the UK is so good at that, are for the UN and NATO.
Although not even a tory cracker like you thinks tory UK can go back in time and save the “Bonian Muslims”
Why are you even listing these wars anyway, why not Rwanda, Pol Pot, Nazi annexation of the Sudetenlands etc?
Sure tory clowns like you have this bizzaro UK’s a world power mentality.
Its probably just that horror tory britnat combo of, We Won the War, post imperial delusion and we have nukes!
You tories are truly repellant sensible d. Christ knows why England keeps voting for your deranged party of nutters, like BoJo and Teresa.
Although if Christ’s a WoS reader, he probably does.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Bob
You wrote “No Dave, I would probably not.”
… then you and I are exactly the same Bob.
The difference between us is that you believe that I, because I am English I suspect, am personally responsible for all of our countries past – be it glorious or shameful – whilst somehow, you are not.
Tell me how that works Bob.
Then, your logic suggests that because, in the past, our forebears did things that when looked at by today’s standards, are reprehensible, that means that we cannot do “the right thing” now. For example, because we ran India (mainly Scots BTW) back in the day, we shouldn’t kick Sadam Hussain out of Kuwait, or try to stop ISIS in Iraq or the Taliban from killing in Afghanistan.
There are no zero sum games in these matters Bob – only very, very difficult choices. Inevitably, the choice is trying to find the least worst outcome.