The visionary
Posted on
December 07, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
As the Scottish media winds itself up to full speed with “SNP BAD” columns about the Forth Road Bridge closure, an alert reader spotted an interesting old quote in Hansard featuring a gentleman you may recognise.
We invite anyone who may perhaps just be arriving at work after an unusually long commute this morning to imagine a Scotland where Mr Darling had been listened to, and the prospect of a replacement crossing was still several years away.
What was the date of this?
Auld Rock
From the link, 22 Nov 1995
“devastated” eh?
That was 1995 and none of the Unionistas did anything about a bridge in those pre devolution times.
If it had been in the SE of England it would have been deemed important to the whole of the U.K. and paid for as part of a national infrastructure plan.
If we had just started to plan and build a new bridge now,this disruption would last for years. If only someone had the foresight and acted earlier in the face of cries of opposition to a new bridge…
22nd Nov 1995
@auld rock – click on linked quote to open Hansard record: “22 November 1995”
“Let’s be clear”.
With any luck the cracks will be sorted and the bridge opened in a few weeks.
This episode highlights that the building of a second crossing is essential. It is a timely reminder in the run up to the May elections we have a government in Holyrood which makes the right decisions one behave of us all.
Well well well. Crossrail, Crossrail 2, HS1, HS2, London Port .. Oh FFS.
Infrastructure, the SNP got it going, a good price. Labour failed to anticipate ‘time’ happening. Scotland gets its just rewards, a nice new set of nukes.
But again, its the media the attacks come from. The message sinks into the minds of people browsing the ‘paper’ shelves, like a poison on the mind of rational thought.
After all, as Scottish branch offices’s transport spokesnumptie said….it is a vanity project.
http://newsnet.scot/?p=108990
Yep, some called it a vanity project (James Kelly?). Anyroads, seems the Scottish Government were on the ball with vital infrastructure projects.
Who knew?
A “bridge too far” too far …
http://moflomojo.blogspot.com/2015/12/a-bridge-too-far-too-far.html
Just read the Scotsman link (“SNP BAD” columns) dear me! Some good rebuttals amongst the zoomery in the comments though.
We need a bit of investigative reporting to find out why the project was cancelled in the ’90s
If your entire mentality rests on Scotland being ‘north Britain’ why would you give a damn about what Scotland needs other than continued domination?
Metal structures ,especially those liberally sprinkled with salt to melt snow,will NEVER stand the test of time.
This bridge was NEVER designed to carry the volume of traffic which uses it daily.
The authorities knew this long before the SNP came on the scene to govern. They did nothing as evidenced by Mr Darlings quote.
The bridge will be repaired.The new one will open to disperse traffic.All will be well.
Mother Nature will always prove to be the dominant force in the world.Shout and rage if you wish,but she is impervious to human wants and needs.
Ironically, Scottish Labour burnt all their bridges, then wonder why we don’t visit anymore.
A golden opportunity to increase rail travel. Most people want the railways renationalised. A glance at a rail map of the UK shows how underdeveloped Scotland is.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/css/OfficialNRmapsmall.GIF
England’s road transport infrastructure is SO far in advance of their Scotland region, its comic/tragic. You dont even need GPS in their UKOK Scotland region, until you hit The North of England, just outside Newcastle, 21st century road transport begins.
A decade later, 2006, Europe’s oil capital still trying to cope with Victorian roads, any development blocked by unionists, rich ones too. Funny that.
http://www.mearnsleader.co.uk/news/local-headlines/road-sense-campaigners-walk-awpr-route-in-protest-1-204505
Another decade later, Aberdeen might get a by-pass.
Got to hand it to Brian Monteith in the Scotsman. It must take a lot of journalistic “skill” to manufacture so many column inches from such a tiny teaspoonful of pish.
The “noble” Lord, aka Alastair Darling, loyal servant of the Westminster Establishment, has done considerable damage to Scotland already as many of us know. We should console ourselves with the fact that he could have done much more had we listened more to him in the past.
The First Referendum will be remembered for three key facts:
1. The UK government used every underhanded tactic it could think of to scare the population.
2. The mainstream media embarked on a campaign of vilification to undermine the democratic will.
3. The key proponents of the No campaign received the fulsome rewards they had hope for.
Darling’s ability to foresee what is best for Scotland’s electorate always was predicated on what was best for Westminster. The signs of a man ready and willing to sell a country for a bag of silver can be found throughout his cold political career.
Scottish Labour would have left East coast of Scotland resoundingly f###ed transport wise and killed the economy if we hadn’t voted for SNP.
Going to get their useless nukes though.
Maybe we could use trident to launch Fifers to Edinburgh.
or we could tie Trident subs up with that new warship being built at Rosyth make some kind of MOD pontoon.
Never needed independence more.
Of Darling: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-v5
Re the Bridge: interesting article from the Scotsman in 2006 and Mr McConnel’s approach to a new Forth crossing
http://www.scotsman.com/news/confirmation-of-new-forth-crossing-may-come-before-christmas-1-734675
Apologies cannot archive from my tablet.
Whilst I have sympathy with those affected by the bridge closure, the episode highlights another example of which party best serves the interests of the people of Scotland, and that is the SNP.
Labour, Tories and the Libdems are UK parties and cannot be trusted. Their Scottish branches fall into line with rUK policies. They have pretend autonomy and are devoid of ideas to take Scotland forward. Just listen to them at Holyrood, apart from SNPBad, it’s all about comparing what happens down south, and suggesting we follow our imperial masters’ lead in policies (Libdems are worst).
Whilst the SNP government is not perfect, they do have the best interests of Scotland at heart. No conflict of interest or internal factions, the sole focus is a better Scotland for all its citizens.
It has to be SNP 1 and 2 next year.
What the engineers are up against.
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12316419_10208332975944217_3837707890705157366_n.jpg?oh=1547ecffe2611daf8eee795d351edf2b&oe=571FA17F
Cuilean says:
7 December, 2015 at 10:52 am
“Ironically, Scottish Labour burnt all their bridges, then wonder why we don’t visit anymore”
Thank you for that brilliant comment Cuilean-consider it nicked-I’m going to be putting that to good use on Twitter 🙂
If anyone wants to learn how to build a proper modern, fast, safe and fully comprehensive road network, that is also the safest in the world for cyclists, and best for keeping residential roads quiet, slow and safe, we don’t need to copy the English – we need to copy the Dutch. After spending only a couple of days driving over there coming back up the A68 felt postively medieval.
I live in Cape Town and just heard on our lunch time local news that due to flooding in the border region of Scotland and England there are no trains running between these two countries. I listened to most of Kaye Adams show this morning on the fourth bridge problem and no mention of any flooding problem affecting trains. Surely that is worth a mention.
@Legerwood. https://archive.is/uinyO
Had a tweet spat with a few zoomers last night saying it was Nicola’s fault as she was minister for infrastructure in 2010, which was completely untrue.
Some good links from the past turning up.
Was speaking to a couple in the cafe this morning about the bridge and the SNP bad!
They were a bit taken aback when I mentioned the 1992 and 1994 labour and lib/dem turning down the plan to invest in a new bridge. They smiled and gave me the “You would say that wouldn’t you” look. 🙁
Here’s Legerwood’s link archived.
https://archive.is/uinyO
Wow!
So the ‘Rev’ has actually found some Scottish news!
Still it must take a while to reach Bath, Somerset, England…
I see the legions of Nationalist keyboard monkeys are desperate to pin the blame for the Forth Bridge Fiasco, anywhere except where it belongs…
The thrashing about is a sight to behold, as suddenly they all become instant civil engineers.
Meanwhile the guys who did the work on the bridge know exactly who is responsible…
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/key-forth-road-bridge-work-cancelled-5-years-ago-1-3968212
“Plans to strengthen the Forth Road Bridge were mothballed five years ago, an engineer has claimed.
John Carson, who led the team behind the Skye Bridge, hit out at the government agency in charge of the crossing for ditching plans to strengthen part of the bridge.
He said Friday’s closure could be directly linked to the decision and condemned Transport Scotland for “incompetence.
Mr Carson, former head of one of the country’s biggest engineering firms, Miller Civil Engineering, also warned that commuters face months of disruption as a consequence. He said: “I fear we’re in for the long haul on this.”
*Awkward*
As just who was in charge at the time?
Oh yes the SNP!
Specifically Alex Neill & Nicola Sturgeon who both were responsible for infrastructure portfolio, and which one of them cut the budget for the bridge by 65%?
Whoops…
So just who to believe
The legions of SNP keyboard monkeys, or the engineers?
It’s a tough call to make!
PS Doubtless the news about Phil Boswells tax dodging, and his non appearance at his branches meeting in Coatbridge might also make it to Bath…one day soon.
no appologies for going ot
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
they need another 50k before xmas for legal bills
im not sure why they need to pay upfront before the ruling is given on whether they will be awarded costs or who is paying carmicheals, I wonder if stu or lpw could give us a heads up.
either way, the Orkney 4 CANNOT be allowed to fail, otherwise the unionists will have a carte blanche to continue to lie with impunity
please give generously. this is too important
Can I congratulate our dear friend Stuart on his post at 11.57am/
Of the many posts he has put on these threads recently, that one was, by the width of the Firth of Forth, the biggest load of pish yet.
Superb effort Stuart; now – awa an bile yer heid ya numpty.
Earlier this morning I posted a comment on the on-line Herald suggesting that as a long term solution to the problems with the FRB The Tagus Bridge in Portugal could serve as an example of what can be done with a bridge of similar design and age as the FRB.
If holding your nose and accessing my comment and suggestions in The Herald is too awful a suggestion can I suggest Googling ‘Tagus Bridge’.
The legions of SNP keyboard monkeys, or the engineers?
It’s not just us and can you not be both Stuart?
Come to bury SLabour, not to praise the end of right to reign over us. Good luck trying to prop up a corpse Stu
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/dec/07/labour-is-falling-apart-but-dont-blame-jeremy-corbyn-for-its-collapse
Rupert Murodck liked the red tories but
“Meanwhle, bubbling away elsewhere were devolutionary, and nationalistic, forces. The Scottish National party was beginning to gather strength, partly because of widespread antipathy to the Tories “at Westminster” and partly due to a gradual rejection of Labour’s tartan Tammany Hall style of local government.”
Not sure what meanwhle means but its nice that their Scotland region gets a wee mention, with that one SLab MP left.
@liz
snap!
I agree we must support the Orkney campaign and the their (our) case against Carmichael.
Stuart says:
insult, insult, forth road bridge, insult insult.
And here I thought it was the The Forth Estuary Transport Authority who handled the bridge maintenance and repair.
Perhaps if you left out the insults and put downs some kind of argument attempting to link the Scottish Government to the bridge maintenance might emerge.
Malcolm Pate @ 11:49am
What you’ve (fortunately) missed is the coverage of Storm Desmond flood damage by the UK London based media
They advised that the storm would hit the ‘UK’
What they avoided was the fact that the storm hit Scotland first and dropped an unimaginable amount of water across the central Highlands moving south and hitting the Scottish borders.
But all we have been fed by the likes of BBC/ITV/Sky based in London is the terrible flooding in Cumbria and in particular Carlisle (indeed it is bad) but for some strange reason ignore the flooding and flooded areas in Scotland. The coverage is as if the storm hit mainly Northern England with just ‘some’ flooding in Scotland.
Curiously though on the news before ‘Call Kaye’ on BBC Scotland the Scottish news reader stated that the flooding of Hawick and the area around is the worst in the UK!
Then of course Kaye Adams proceeds to get the usual disgruntled to complain. Did notice one caller did bring her up after an hour about what the BBC were doing, unfortunately according to Adams they ran out of time and the caller was cut off.
It has been noticeable that the BBC in Scotland instead of providing an enhance travel service and advise, they just carp from the sidelines.
Case in point was the disgraceful interview by Gary Robertson of the Transport Minister, where Robertson was trying to heap blame on the SNP, with accusations that if the SNP had not done away with Tolls, the problem wouldn’t have happened.
Ah, yes! John Carson of the Skye Bridge! How did that one pan out?
The plans for a new Forth Road Bridge met with stiff opposition from environmentalists and from the Labour dominated City of Edinburgh Council on the grounds of the increased traffic. Following the Labour victory in the 1997 general election the proposals were shelved by Westminster.
In response to Stuart The Forth Estuary Transport Authority (FETA) was the Labour councillor dominated authority responsible for the maintenance of the bridge for decades up to May this year.
As for Scotland’s transport infrastructure all the opposition parties ganged up on the SNP to force through the Edinburgh Tram scheme at the expense of dualling the A9
and unionists opposed the Aberdeen by pass.
So John Carson preferred building a Tunnel instead of a bridge.
The reason, the reason a tunnel wasn’t built was be cause it was too expensive,
, and I believe there may have been problems.
Also the people of West Fife didn’t want a tunnel and all the traffic going through their villages in this they were supported by their local Labour party politicians.
OT I see Murdoch’s sun editorial is attacking finance secretary John Swinney for even considering killing off the Devolution bill.
My memory may be playing tricks with me but it tells me the Scottish Bridges of that era, like today, had a Establishment built-in funding handicap.
Unlike in England, where the funding for their bridges included the associated road/rail infrastructure on both sides of the bridge.
In Scotland the road/rail infrastructure had to be met by either the relevant local authority or from the Scottish Block Grant. The extra infrastructure was not deemed to be part of the normal road/rail structure.
If memory serves correctly they couldn’t make the road Motorway as it included both bicycle and pedestrian traffic so it only was laughable called a Motorway from Rosyth Admiralty Road interchange Northwards.
As a Motorway it didn’t even meet duel Carriageway standards because there was originally no hard shoulders and very few lay-bys.
It was/is also plagued by drainage problems, some of which remain to this day. The stretch between Kinross and south as far as Loch Fitty eventually saw them install a culvert under the central reservation and rubble drains down each side under the later constructed hard shoulders.
This extra work was the main reason the bridge tolls were imposed for so long – Westminster’s refusal to properly fund the road infrastructure except on the bridge itself had to be paid for by the users.
I came across a paper detailing all the flooding and other problems while researching some flooding problems in Kelty that were a direct result of the, so called, Motorway cutting, adjacent to Kelty bisecting five live burns that ran through Blairadam Forest and were originally culverted under Kelty into Loch Ore.
Obviously those five live burns were draining into the Motorway cutting and instead of going through the culverts under Kelty into Loch Ore, the five burns were turning south through the Motorway cutting and into Loch Fitty.
Rory Stewart should have built a bigger cairn or flood defences. The Tories banned wind turbines and cut investment in solar and renewables.
The Useless Unionists have ruined the Scottish/UK economy. Those who can do. Those who can’t join a Unionist Party. Can’t count or understand elementary Maths.
Stop listening to BBC. Call Adams. No listeners no programmes why support or spread the propaganda.
o/t
there is a man from BBC on RS now – telling how wonderful BBC Scotland is with ore programmes etc. How they are listening etc.
I’m surprised the Scottish Office didn’t tell Darling to go Forth and multiply.
Well, I’m not really.
I see Stuart is trolling away with his “SNP Bad” guff again, conveniently leaving out a few key facts like responsibility for the operation and maintenance of the bridge, which was until this year with FETA, stuffed full of Labour incompetents who obviously assured the SG that everything was hunky-dory with the bridge back in 2006.
That aside, I do think the SG did make a couple of big mistakes:
1. Removal of tolls – surely a quid a day one way is not too much to ask.
2. The new QFC will only have four lanes, which will obviously not be enough (especially if the old bridge cannot even take public transport). It should have been designed for 6 lanes. The additional costs would have easily been covered by point 1.
Bad SNP!!!!
Ah, well, I guess I will have to vote Bad SNP + Bad SNP next year
Better Bad SNP than Evil, Useless Labour. 🙂
Of course it is the SNP’s fault, that must be the case for all ill that befalls the country. Media rule #1.
If SLab had been in charge this would be a “natural disaster” and be pretty horrific too as there wouldn’t be a replacement half built beside it.
Stuart,
C re your trolling comment @ 11.57
Carson headed up the consortium which was backed by the Bank of America which funded the building of the Skye Bridge. I suspect Carson’s partisan political attack on the SNP today is due in no small degree to the fact that the SNP cost Carson dearly when the SNP abolished Skye Bridge tolls!
This left Carson having to explain to his financial backers why they were not going to leech as many millions off bridge users as promised them by Carson.
Stuart the Yoon Loon and frothing, rabid sabernat. Stop talking pish. Everyone here knows you’re talking pish. Away and get yourself an education, laddie.
Doon wi’ the Yoon.
Tick, tock. Yer Yoon days are numbered. Chalks away!
…why is any bad news grabbed by the media and twisted into SNP bad?
…and why do they look so happy doing it?
Just out of interest I checked the number of bridge accidents worldwide this year. There are dozens of them, including several in the most advanced Nations for technology.
The most common fault of structural failure is poor condition steelwork caused by stress and weather. We are not alone after all.
I hear that darling Lord Darling plans to fix the Forth road bridge by wrapping his ermine cloak around the cracks.
@gus1940
If you go on-line there is a book
Has a whole heap of info.
Seems some work was done around the time Westminster decided they didn’t need to.
Sorry for some reason this library computer sent off my post at 12:22 pm before I had finished typing it.
As I said the reason a bridge was built was because a tunnel was too expensive, over £4 billion I believe and there may have been geological problems as well.
Aberdeen is getting it’s by-pass. 40 years late. Constructed thanks to the SNP. The Unionist (+ Greens) even tried to stop it, after voting against it for 40 years. They wasted £Million/Billions of taxpayers money trying to stop it, while in the Landowners pocket. Drinks at the Feudal estate. Underfunding by Labour/Unionist dominated Cosla.
Cameron lying through his teeth, again.
It shows just how lucky we are that the SNP pressed ahead with Alex Salmond’s ‘vanity project’.
The FRB is constantly maintained, but it just wasn’t designed to cope with twice the amount of traffic and far heavier lorries. This was just a matter of time.
It’s unfortunate it happened in the run up to Christmas and during bad weather – but think how much worst it could be if the damage was worse and the bridge was out of action for months to come, with no second bridge on the horizon.
It is now very evident Scotland has not been treated as a country in a union but as a region of England, Where is the super up to date infrastructure of a wealthy oil nation? where are the iconic world class buildings in our largest cities?
Berti Vogts got one observation correct when he spent time in Scotland, Scotland has nothing!
As a state Scotland has been kept down and treated as a region and not a nation in union.
I do hope the idiots who voted no wake up to this fact.
Ok so the Scottish government may not have spent the required budget on the existing bridge and that reduced maintenance contributed to this current and serious issue. Maybe this was due to the need to find budget for the new crossing which will certainly provide the best longer term solution to this problem. So we have another bridge that is good to go next year which I don’t think we would have had if Labour were still in power.
So the Labouristas and their Unionist MacCommentariat would have us believe that we would be in a better state if they were in charge. I think the case is not proven, that bastard, very Scottish, verdict that finds in favour of neither side.
Meanwhile we have bombing of Syria. We have wasted billions on renewal of useless nuclear weapons. We have an incompetent Conservative UK government that inflicts progressively more pain on the poorest and most vulnerable in our communities in the name of an economic pseudo science that was meant to eliminate our national debt by now but has instead more than doubled it and we have a UK Labour party that has so far proved itself totally incapable of mounting a real challenge to a government that has a very low majority in Westminster.
Roll on next May when I can vote SNP again.
@Clootie
‘why do they look so happy doing it?’
I don’t think they honestly see how that looks to people Clootie. They literally come across as evil, spiteful, twisted and shallow and yet they are utterly blind to this reality.
We know why they’re doing what they’re doing and it it has SFA with holding anyone or anything to account. It certainly isn’t being done with the welfare of the public at heart.
They are who and what they are. So with that, let them rave away whilst the SG get on with running the country and we get on with loosing the bonds to the real problem with our wellbeing, our society and our governance.
Aberdeen major road. A 16 Century exit bridge. Equivalent of £Billion of Oil revenues went to UK Treasury. Osbourne now destroying the NS Oil sector.
Unionist/Greens have wasted £Millions/Billion of tsxpayers money destroying the City Centre with a monsterous carbuncle. Increasing congestion. £26Milion to pay of AECC centre private debt. Now planning to spend £330Million on a Conference centre in Bucksburn, Crocket’s constituency. Another non mandated waste of public money. Spending £33Million destroying an Art Gallery, shut for three years. Refused a Gift of £80Million to pedestrianise the City. The majority supported the project. Wasting £Miillions /Billions of taxpayers money with no mandate. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. While constantly claiming there is no monies for essential services.
Bob Mack @ 12.31 pm
We don’t even have to look too far afield to find problem bridges. I believe the Number and Severn bridges are of similar design to the Forth Bridge and have had a similar litany of problems.
Stuart says: Wow! 11:57
You ask who do we believe Stuart, either Amey the one of the country’s biggest engineering companies and several independent engineers or as you quite surprisingly state Miller Civil Engineering, a company that no longer exists, you did know that Stuart?
Ok let’s look at your hero John Carson, the engineer behind the Skye bridge and a man who had arguably the biggest role in organizing the finance and building of the bridge, to facilitate this he used one of the first instances in Scotland of a public finance initiative (PFI), introduced by Margaret Thatcher’s Government. It left islanders paying the highest bridge tolls in Europe. To quote David Hingston, procurator-fiscal at Dingwall Sheriff Court. “PFI in my personal opinion is a fraud on the public. John Carson was managing director of Miller civil’s. a company that was quickly dissolved, mismanagement cited as the reason and all its work transferred to Morgan Sindall.
And where did our Johnny reappear in this story, oh yes he was behind the tunnel option, didn’t want the new bridge, and if the tunnel went ahead, he would be best place to offer his services, so not one with an axe to grinded at all!
Yes Stuart for you it is indeed it’s a tough call to make. For the rest of us it’s very easy.
Regarding Phil Boswells so called tax dodging, there is no such thing, its either avoidance or evasion, we all avoid tax, you can’t help it a pension or an ISA, your choice of company car, all avoids the tax take.
You show your naiveties with your nudge- nudge, wink – wink supercilious posts result in my being still embarrassed for you. You remind me of the chap who demanded of the waiter that his Gazpacho be warmed! Wow Claymore 64 indeed!
@heedtracker
Tammany hall
Does that clear things up?
In response to the five year old Forth Road Bridge repairs cancelled claim, a Transport Scotland spokesperson said:
“The Scottish Government has fully funded all FETA programmes since taking over the funding of the annual grant in 2008.
Prior to the dissolution of FETA earlier this year, FETA made decisions on their programme and priorities of repairs completely independently of Transport Scotland.
“Amey have informed us that the ongoing truss end strengthening works are to a different part of the truss end linkage system to that which failed earlier this week.
“The truss end link member, which transfers load to the pin linkage, and which has suffered a complete weld fracture near the pin joint, was not previously identified as requiring strengthening or to be at risk of failure.
All I’ll say is thank goodness for the Forth Rail Bridge. 100 years old and still going strong. Even the Luftwaffe couldn’t blow it up. Thatcher also had a try by slashing maintenance (rectified at great cost later), but the old lady has survived em all. She will still be standing long after the FRB and the new QFC have passed away.
They don’t build em like that any more!
Poor we Stuart, he must be a bit under the weather. His Mammy’s kept him off school, the wee soul.
Wow!
So the ‘Rev’ has actually found some Scottish news!
Still it must take a while to reach Bath, Somerset, England…
That is as far as I bothered reading. Anybody with such a poor grasp of modern communications is unlikely to turn the tide and say anything sensible.
Looks like in 2010 someone thought that there was some work required:
http://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=MAY077389
Rumor has it Jackie Bailey has come up with a cunning plan to seriously embarrass Scottish Government. She has seen on the internet a possible solution to the Forth Crossing problem.
She has completed an application to RBS for a bridging loan.
Ken500 says:
7 December, 2015 at 1:01 pm
Aberdeen major road. A 16 Century exit bridge. Equivalent of £Billion of Oil revenues went to UK Treasury. Osbourne now destroying the NS Oil sector.
Unionist/Greens have wasted £Millions/Billion of tsxpayers money destroying the City Centre with a monsterous carbuncle. Increasing congestion. £26Milion to pay of AECC centre private debt. Now planning to spend £330Million on a Conference centre in Bucksburn, Crocket’s constituency. Another non mandated waste of public money. Spending £33Million destroying an Art Gallery, shut for three years. Refused a Gift of £80Million to pedestrianise the City. The majority supported the project. Wasting £Miillions /Billions of taxpayers money with no mandate. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. While constantly claiming there is no monies for essential services.
Aberdeen had a beautiful Edwardian layout in the city centre, which has since been wrecked by decades of Labour council-control. These numpties are back in power (thanks to their blue tory accomplices) and seem to be hell-bent on finishing the job. We really have to make sure they get kicked out in 2017, before Aberdeen city centre has nothing left to save. Red tories with wee brains, big egos and a bit of power, can do untold damage to a city. They haven’t a feckin clue.
Labour’s tactic is just to attack whoever is in power until it thinks it can regain power.
You’re watching a political dinosaur in action here because whist they are attacking they aren’t doing the most important thing and helping.
How many times have you heard a Labour government lose now and then say “Well the people have spoken and it’s up to us to evaluate what went wrong and come back stronger” Only to do the same thing again aided by mates in the press of “SNP Badddd” or “Conservatives baaaddd” when it’s a national issue.
What they should be saying is “Yes, this is a mistake we made when in power and we’re working hard with our political opponents to fix the problem because it’s vital for the economy and much needed for the people of Scotland”.
Don’t hold your breadth though, it’s not going to happen and as such, dinosaurs are about to become extinct all over again in Scotland come
May next year!
Colin Rippey says:
7 December, 2015 at 1:18 pm
Looks like in 2010 someone thought that there was some work required:
Hi Keverage. At the time red/blue tory UKOK unionists like you raged away at the cables, cables will snap without WD40, sort of shadap, vote SLab kind of misinfo?
BBC attack propaganda, old school
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7193583.stm
Not the fault of 50 year old steel. 50 years of Scottish winters. A bridge designed to carry 3000 vehicles a day but carries around 70,000 a day at present. None of these reasons. Hysterical hatred of everything snp by the media. Keep it up. When is the penny going to drop? This isn’t working. Labour need to reclaim their status as official opposition instead of relying on the bbc, daily record, scotsman to do the smearing on their behalf & hopefully gain a few dozen votes. Labour should disband now! Maybe then a decent left of centre party might emerge. One that doesn’t use cracks in steel, weather, motorway closures due to snow, cancer patients, they will use any tawdry reason to make the snp look bad. The trouble is, they have destroyed themselves in the proccess. At labour HQ do they discuss strategy? “Did anyone trip on a manhole cover?” Right, how can we pin it on Sturgeon” Very clever policy. REsult; 1 mp
BritNat media blames Scotland for civilian casualties in Syria!
Well, it’s only a matter of time.
@Grouse Beater says: 7 December, 2015 at 10:50 am:
“If your entire mentality rests on Scotland being ‘north Britain’ why would you give a damn about what Scotland needs other than continued domination?”
I read your comment just seconds after I checked my old notes on past Scottish infrastructure arguments with Westminster and I had just read this note:-
You will note that the Scottish section is NOT the M74 but the A74(M).
o/t
there is a man from BBC on RS now – telling how wonderful BBC Scotland is with ore programmes etc. How they are listening etc.
They are if youre a red/blue tory.
Someone says a Forth Tunnel would cost billions. HS2 is a billion quid a mile or two.
The M8 is not a motorway, fast road/rail links twixt Edinburgh and Glasgow, through to Clydebank, up to Dundee, Aberdeen, even the Buchan coast would have massive economic multipliers BUT as per, decades of SLab dull eyed, pot bellied UKOK troughing at Westminster means its never going to happen.
It may happen.
But if it ever does, as well as trying to drag Scotland’s infrastructure into the 20th Century, Scotland will also be paying for England, as like the rest of Europe, they zoom into the 22nd Century.
Also, there is coal mine tunnel connections to Fife under the Forth.
Can I add another appeal for the Carmichael case.
Target required is circa £208,000, justice really is the sole preserve of the rich in the UK. It’s a disgrace. I have bunged them another £20 and would encourage Wings readers to donate if they can afford it before Xmas.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/story
@heedtracker
Good day to you, it’s been a while. Here’s the summary from the link I posted (not that you bothered reading it):
The Forth Road Bridge was opened in 1964 and now carries over 24 million vehicles per annum.
Assessments of the suspended structure and the truss end connections have identified that several of the key elements forming these connections are overstressed.
A feasibility study has been undertaken and a preferred option identified to strengthen the existing truss end link connection.
The Forth Estuary Transport Authority (FETA) wishes to appoint a suitably experienced consulting engineer to undertake the detailed design of the new truss end connections. The successful candidate will also be responsbile for the preparation of tender documentation and the supervision of the works on site.
CPV: 71312000.
There’s absolutely no doubt that there will be some extremely good reasons why the above proposal was not taken forward.
We can’t expect politicians to fully understand the engineering of the bridge, all we can expect of the politicians is that they are presented with the facts and the recommendations and that the politicians act in the public interest.
We don’t know if the above notice even made it to a politician’s desk.
@Grouse Beater says: 7 December, 2015 at 10:50 am:
“If your entire mentality rests on Scotland being ‘north Britain’ why would you give a damn about what Scotland needs other than continued domination?”
I read your comment just seconds after I checked my research notes from years ago. I had a few on that subject. Including this: –
Hugh Barclay says:
“Where is the super up to date infrastructure of a wealthy oil nation? where are the iconic world class buildings in our largest cities?”
I’m sitting here in Astana, Kazakhstan right now. They’ve only had their independence from the Soviet Union since about 1990. Their oil production is just less than double that of the UK yet they have built Astana almost from scratch and it makes the UK look like a third world country. Some of their buildings are superb. Their infrastructure is up to American standards. It makes me ashamed to be british.
Colin old chap do read the posts above your original nonsense.
The Scottish Government has fully funded all FETA programmes since taking over the funding of the annual grant in 2008.
Prior to the dissolution of FETA earlier this year, FETA made decisions on their programme and priorities of repairs completely independently of Transport Scotland.
Amey have stated that the ongoing truss end strengthening works are to a different part of the truss end linkage system to that which failed earlier this week.
The truss end link member, which transfers load to the pin linkage, and which has suffered a complete weld fracture near the pin joint, was not previously identified as requiring strengthening or to be at risk of failure.
O/T Johnson Press must have given up on Labour winning seats as they have give Ruth Davidson a half page crowdfunding appeal in her futile attempt to win Edinburgh Central.
https://archive.is/WZsYl
We can’t expect politicians to fully understand the engineering of the bridge,
Indeed not Kevrage. From the photos posted here, it looks like one connector has sheered and probably due to overload from higher volume/stress. This much we know. Should be a quick fix and away we’ll go again.
If Scotland had not SNP Scots.gov, we’d be taking one stumbling step forward and two backwards, kind of SLab rule thing.
As in the north east of your Scotland region Kevarage. Its sad really as this whole area voted NO last year.
Fishing towns like Peterhead compare to fishing towns in England like Hull for example, Hull’s had a 6 lane motorway hookup with the A1(M) since the mid 80’s and all part of an ever developing dual and motorway network, in England.
But they voted NO in the Blue toon so they will just have to whistle, God save the Queen, maybe.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeenshire/318905/cost-140million-upgrade-a90-north-aberdeen/
Just out of interest I checked the number of bridge accidents worldwide this year. There are dozens of them, including several in the most advanced Nations for technology.
The most common fault of structural failure is poor condition steelwork caused by stress and weather. We are not alone after all.
Bob
I believe the problem is substantial. There are something close to 8,000 bridges in the US alone that require urgent remedial work. There is going to be no shortage of work for engineers in the next few years.
The FRB will be fixed and things will return to normal and then the Queensferry crossing will open and congestion will ease considerably. It is fortunate that the SG opted to go ahead with the Queensferry bridge despite the naysayers and troglodytes obsessed with tunnels.
O/T
US airstrikes on Syrian soldiers
Who would’ve thought, eh
Rippey
Is it possible that you manage to undertake comprehensive research and apply some honesty in how you use it, rather than grabbing a quotation and applying it to your argument as if it’s topical.
There have been numerous reports and ‘fixes, since the bridge was built, all alerting engineers to the reality of traffic and vehicular weight well in excess of anything the designers anticipated.
The latest discovery is just… well, the latest and confirmation that a second road bridge is long overdue.
Hence, approving the build of a new bridge is prescient in the extreme, and to be applauded for its farsightedness. However, building the new does not stop the old accruing damage from overuse.
@Luigi
One of the reasons for the Forth Rail Bridge`s longevity (125yr) is the failure of the Tay Bridge,
original plans were scraped and a new design that increased the strength four fold,which included thicker iron plates and bigger foundations plus many other strengthening features,
whenever I hear anyone complaining about new Health and Safety regulations I tell them about the 73 that died building the Rail bridge the 7 that died on the Road bridge and as yet not an accident of note (touch wood) on the New bridge.
Surely,
… with all the (apparently underused) geologists and drilling technology from the OIL industry, a tunnel for cycles and motorbikes could be sourced at a stroke.
How about a giant parcel freight MagLev type connection through the Forth.
Pretty sure we graduate enough mathematicians and engineers from OUR OWN UNIVERSITIES to come up with something site-specific.
..Don’t consult!
..Just have a 6 month DESIGN COMPETITION..the winner starts right away.
Oh, and also, we would like to start building SCOTLANDS ‘end’ of the HS2 now, thankyou very much, nicely-nicely better together chums.
The Forth Rail Bridge was built the engineers knowing it required protective repainting “continuously” to keep salt rot at bay.
Only recently has its owners used a new type of plastic paint that lasts longer, but I have no doubt that Nature being the force that it is, the plastic will deteriorate in time and require remedy.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/world/769581/video-watch-raf-action-lossiemouth-jets-head-syria/
A million quid a mission, per jet. Funny looking oil fields.
Oh how the Westminster warmongers cheered last week.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/syria-vote-live-uk-poised-to-approve-air-strikes-as-cameron-calls-opponents-terrorist-sympathisers-a6756786.html
How much did the tram for the Edinburgh elite cost the public? Forced through by the Tories, labour branch etcetera. Now if only that money could be used for something else. I wonder? A9 upgrade, Aberdeen bypass, borders railway, M74 / M8 missing link, a new Forth Road Bridge….
Maybe that’s why they are so quiet.
Patrick Harvie, Labour and Tories may not wish to read this.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland-blog/2013/jun/26/scotland-forthbridge-queensferry
Flip!
This thread is a perfect example of why we should welcome a modicum of unionist narks on this site.
Stuart and Colin Rippey’s posts are the typical narrative which the unionist MSM and unenlightened public will adopt to attack Scotland and its governance by a Scottish party.
The informed responses to be found on here regarding the Forth Road bridge will help spread the truth and limit the damage unionist liars do to Scotland.
Keep it coming Stuart and Colin.Where’s Dave ?
https://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/news/report-shows-extra-forth-crossing-is-salmonds-folly/
Oops.
Mind you maybe we should charge for bridge crossings. Why should edinburgh rbs get travel free and ferry passengers along the west and north coasts are charged even with RET?
The reality of UK funding of English motorways and infrastructure in comparison to Scotland is frightening:
In the 40 years since Oil began to flow: London city centre has been totally redeveloped, with the City of London being expanded into Docklands and the Canary Wharf development where some of the largest and most expensive buildings in Europe reside.
From 1980 onwards Central London has been redeveloped out of recognition with billions being lavished on vanity projects such the Millenium Dome and London Eye with our money. The Underground has had £6 billion in 2012, the Crossrail has a £15 billion tag. The Docklands had its own rail line added in 1987. The list is endless.
But this largess is not confined to the ‘Smoke’..the huge road investment in the new M1 from Leeds to Newcastle is colossal. Manchester is unrecognisable from the early eighties. Its population up 20 % because of investment on a gigantic scale. In the 2014 budget, Gideon’s autumn statement he announced a £78 million grant to fund a new “large-scale, ultra-flexible arts space” in the city.
This is almost two and a half times our Barnet handout in total as a grant! Never mind the joke amount for capital investment. Somebody should collate and cost the last thirty years in capital projects for England and contrast and compare with the peanuts we’ve been thrown.
The biggest joke is Aberdeen..the ‘Oil Capital’ with the absurdly inadequate road network in and out of the city. A city where the rich are disproportionately not even Scottish, never mind Aberdonian. A city ruined by greed of the few to the detriment of the many.
7 December, 2015 at 2:23 pm
How much did the tram for the Edinburgh elite cost the public?
Once again, MOST English cities, like Edinburgh and Glasgow have tram networks. Red tory SLab decided that Scotland should not have one, in any Scottish city, then they went mental on the most expensive tram ever, for their non capital city
eg
http://www.thetrams.co.uk/supertram/
A nice info site for some UK tram networks, with UK ofcourse being England.
Why SLab decided trams were not to be in their Scotland region, we’ll probably never know.
Grouse Beater at 2.05
It used to be, and possibly still is, standard engineering practice in continuous process plants to have standby equipment wherever possible to be immediately brought onto line when required.
The existing bridge could be just that paying it’s way in maintenance and other costs by the savings to the wider economy in the event of restrictions on the replacement bridge.
The next thing we know, Scotland will be to blame for any issue arising from antibiotic resistance because of that pesky Alexander Fleming who discovered penicillin. And if anyone causes death or serious injury to other road users through illegal use of a mobile handset while driving, Scotland will again be to blame because of that Alexander Graham Bell guy.
Of course these bridges are vanity projects, all our young people must be taught to swim early to avoid road congestion
Even so there’s no need to be leaving the crofts and travelling to other places for work, sheep are the same in any town
Scotland and it’s proud people must accept it’s their heritage to get back to the land and produce the fine heather and woodcrafts that the country is so respected for
So come on Scotland do your bit for Queen and country so when we all come north in July we can see once again the red cheeked smiling faces we know and love in our glorious Scotland
(silly music in background with smoke coming out of chimneys)
“Keep it coming Stuart and Colin.Where’s Dave ?” I suspect he’s on the backshift, dakk.
Speaking about cars and traffic *ahem* it’s good to see more and more cars sporting the Saltire and “SCO” or similar on their number plates. I thought I would join them, and I thought it would cost me £30 or so for two new plates, but all I did was buy a couple of all-weather stickers for £2 [available from many good internet dealers] and attached them accordingly. And smart they look too!
When Patrick Harvie speaks
Everyone should ignore him
Really, I mean really !!
He should carry a bell so folk can be warned
Fingers in ears!!!
@dakk (2.38) –
Hear hear.
These bollock-merchants do have a purpose, and a grim entertainment value.
They remind me of the guy in the Barras who used to do a Houdini routine, getting people to secure handcuffs on his wrists and ankles, wrap lengths of rusty chain around him, fastened with old padlocks, then he’d get in a gigantic sack and someone would tie him in. Then he’d hit the deck, wriggling about and making noises. After five minutes we got bored, went for a bag of whelks and a rummage around the stalls.
Half an hour later we returned and he was still there, twitching away…soo-perb.
Stuart says:
7 December, 2015 at 11:57 am
From the piece you posted:
“He said Friday’s closure could be directly linked to the decision and condemned Transport Scotland for “incompetence.”
The whole piece hangs on that one sentence. You do know why he uses ‘could’?
In case you don’t, it allows the author to print any bollox they want without any proper analysis. When someone else comes along and ridicules their statements, the answer is “Ah but I only said ‘could‘”.
It also allows zoomers like you you to cut and paste these straw man arguments for the benefit of the hard of thinking.
There are definitely questions re the forth bridge that need to be asked. The expansion joints were flagged up a while ago and do seem to be the likely cause of the overstress of the joint. ie – it looks as if the bridge has been unable to accommodate the expansion via the joint so the overstress has been redistributed to the lower connection which has not had the capacity to withstand it.
The question now is how much overstress has been redistributed elsewhere and have any other connections possibly been compromised as a result. If only there were a team of world experts in building bridges somewhere nearby we could ask them to take a wee look eh.
The bridge just reminded us how important it is. Imagine for a second that we hadn’t started the 2nd one yet.
Some may remember when Slab lifted the tolls on the Erskine Bridge (2006?). It was done with surprising haste. The lifting of the tolls wasn’t done to help the local economy. Oh no! The tolls were canceled when it transpired that Slab due to gross incompetence forgot to renew the licence to charge tolls on the bridge and to do so would have broken the law.
And to those suggesting the return of tolls. Away to the lavie and gie yersell a talkin tae!
I can’t believe all these moaning minnies yowling on about how much money they’re losing because the bridge is closed for repair. Would they rather lose their lives in a major road disaster? Are these the kind of clowns who would refuse to put on a life-jacket in an airline emergency to preserve the appearance of their neatly pressed clothes?
Ah, got it! That’s why the press are getting so steamed up about this. They would rather have seen the complete collapse of the bridge resulting in a full-blown disaster with major loss of life. Think of the potential spin for the unionists and their lackeys in the MSM.
Maybe..
.. if we’d been independent 30 years ago..
(or if our Labour MPs / Scotland Office had ACTUALLY REPRESENTED OUR NEEDS)
..our infrastructure might be in better shape.
Any ‘blame’ re bridge overuse / poor strategy relating to infrastructure, MUST be focussed on the Scotland Office (aka Westminster government ministers) c.1960-2000-ish.
…And maybe… add the majority of voters of Scotland for sheepishly accepting excuses since the fifties!..
This extract is from the link below; a story from December, 2012:-
” The consortium Forth Crossing Bridge Constructors (FCBC) has appointed Cleveland Bridge to make massive steel girders that will support viaducts at either end of the 1.7 mile long structure.
The deal has given the Darlington firm confidence to take on apprentices and draw up plans to buy new machinery…
…The bridge will open to traffic in 2016. Steel for the project is being supplied by Tata Steel from its mills in Scunthorpe and Motherwell.”
Why, when a firm in the north-east of England is making girders for the Queensferry Crossing, is it only Chinese steel that is ever mentioned? Has this story been superceded by events?
https://archive.is/I0JkJ
@ Free Scotland
Can we blame Logie Baird for Union Jackie Burd and the State Sponsored Broadcaster.
Free Scotland says:
7 December, 2015 at 3:12 pm
I can’t believe all these moaning minnies yowling on about how much money they’re losing because the bridge is closed for repair. Would they rather lose their lives in a major road disaster? Are these the kind of clowns who would refuse to put on a life-jacket in an airline emergency to preserve the appearance of their neatly pressed clothes?
Ah, got it! That’s why the press are getting so steamed up about this. They would rather have seen the complete collapse of the bridge resulting in a full-blown disaster with major loss of life. Think of the potential spin for the unionists and their lackeys in the MSM.
Indeed. As my dear wife reminded me this morning – the main outcome is that the damage was detected in time and no one was hurt. If the steel pin/bracket had sheared causing catastrophic failure with traffic above, hundreds of people may have been killed. Perhaps the red tories and BBC Labour should remember that before they go off on one of their “SNP bad” rants.
@Proud Cybernat
Hmm. When you put it like that. I suppose we’ll just have to consider Logie Baird’s contribution as a blessing that conceals a curse.
Good of the SNP to have the forward thinking of getting a new bridge
does anyone know once the new bridge opens will the old one be shut/scrapped/used as a spare or will both open
I can see a time when its no longer viable but hope this is not the case
@Luigi says: 7 December, 2015 at 1:10 pm:
“All I’ll say is thank goodness for the Forth Rail Bridge. 100 years old and still going strong. Even the Luftwaffe couldn’t blow it up.”
Sorry to spoil a good story, Luigi, but the Luftwaffe never attempted to blow up the Rail Bridge. Hitler is on record as saying he would require the main British Bridges after he invaded.
The real target of what the UK Government spun as the, “Forth Bridge Raid”, was the Royal Navy’s Flag Ship HMS Hood which was in the Rosyth Dry Dock, (now holding the new Aircraft Carrier).
This raid was the first German air Raid of WWII. The German raiders bit off far more than they could chew.
First of all most ships in the dockyard were fully armed and there were gun emplacements there too. Every island in the Firth had gun emplacements and there were anti-aircraft batteries on both shores of the Firth.
Not to mention the City of Edinburgh Spitfire Squadron at Turnhouse and the City of Glasgow Spitfire Squadron at Drem.
To add to the German woes there was a flotilla of Destroyers, Frigates and Corvettes sailing up the Forth after escort duties. The lead ship being HMS Mohawk skippered by Captain Jolly. Everything opened fire.
Mohawk suffered a narrow miss, a bomb fell just 15 yards off the port bow the blast killing 15 crewmen on the forward decks. However Mohawk continued fighting. Later Captain Jolly brought his ship into the Dockyard’s South Arm and made her fast.
When the bridge party turned to their skipper after docking he was sitting, (in those days on an open bridge), in the captains chair in a pool of blood.
He was rushed to the Port Edgar Military Hospital but was found to be dead. He was awarded, (if memory serves), The Military Cross.
Just a few years ago his remains were disinterred from the Queensferry Graveyard and reinterred in his home village in England.
HMS Hood, after her refit at Rosyth was subsequently sunk in the Straits of Norway By the Bismark during, “The Hunt for the Bismark”.
http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/bismarck1.htm
The Forth Bridge underwent a full structural examination in 2013. The engineers passed it as safe ,but advised that the volume of traffic would affect the structure at some point.
What then.? Did the Scottish government
a) Ignore that advice ?
b) Put provision in place to alleviate the volume of traffic by building another bridge?
Answers on a postcard please.
Brian, Steel bridge sections are being supplied by the Darlington company.
Tata Steel only played “an indirect” role in tendering for the supply of steel plate for the project. Contrary to misleading speculation, there were no Scottish bids for FCBC’s steel fabrication subcontracts. Tata Steel’s plant in Motherwell manufactures steel plate, it is not a steel fabricator.
Scottish firms are benefitting from the construction of the Queensferry Crossing. A Scottish-based firm, Morrison Construction is one of the four consortium members tasked with building the new bridge. So far 118 subcontracts – 76% of the total awarded – and 870 out of 1,041 supply orders awarded on the Principal Contract have gone to Scottish companies. The value of these subcontracts alone is thought to be worth over £20 million.
Come on folks. Only just over a thousand more signatures to get this petition over the 100,000 line in which case it will be heard in the Commons.
If you haven’t already signed, please do so:
http://www.snp.org/dont-bomb-syria
Those two slerkit, lying cretins Martin Ford and Debra Storr are trying to get into the Parliament after sleekitly destroying the North East economy for years. Wating £Million/Billions of public money and causing disruption and congestion everywhere. Public Health warning. Do not vote Green. Dangerous psycopaths are on the loose. .
Bob Mack
Do try to keep up with the thread of this story.
Prior to the dissolution of the Labour dominated FETA earlier this year, FETA, which was solely responsible for the maintenance of the Forth Road Bridge, made decisions on their programme and priorities of repairs completely independently of Transport Scotland.
I think they should name the new bridge – Fortuitous
@Caledonia,
Both will open. Public transport and hgv’s will use the old,whilst cars etc will use the new.
@Bob 335
The issue of overstress on the end links was brought up in May of 2010 when FETA was still in charge. Thank goodness that we have a govt in Scotland who pushed for the new bridge, despite the calls of it being a “vanity project” etc.
As to who is to blame for the bridge component failing? We are for driving on it. We built a mini and have been using it as a bus for decades.
Usually when something goes wrong you have a group of engineers standing around it. Most of them concentrate on what they are going to do to repair the issue. A couple will inevitably stand and try to apportion blame – They usually get sent for the bacon rolls and coffee.
Thank goodness our govt is addressing the issue while the unionists go get us some rolls and coffee.
@Sinky.
Thanks for the advice, but regardless of whether it was FETA ,Transport Scotland or indeed AMEY, the bridge was examined by engineers and found to be safe.if somewhat lacking in capacity for the traffic volume.
Do you have a point?
Announcement from the State Sponsored Broadcaster:
“Storm damaged homes in Cumbria and North England to receive help from UK Government.”
Didn’t say anything about assistance to damaged homes in Scotland.
Is bad weather a devolved issue?
Scotland is to blame for people all over the world having easy access to money which they will only spend on frivolous things like food and drink. Yes we blame you John Shepherd-Barron for the ATM and you James Goodfellow a Paisley man too, for the PIN. Damnable Scots, you made our life too easy.
Bob Mack
Traffic over capacity has been an issue for over 20 years but Westminster and previous Scottish Executive did nothing so thank goodness the current Scottish government proceeded with their “vanity project” and build a second bridge
It appears to me that legions of no voters like our own village idiot Stuart and his ilk do not travel past the Scottish border and see how different our infrastructure and transport system compares to our neighbours. They would see with their own eyes that we are getting royally shafted. Don’t give the guff that it’s devolved. What about the previous decades of neglect?
@HandandShrimp says: 7 December, 2015 at 1:59 pm:
“It is fortunate that the SG opted to go ahead with the Queensferry bridge despite the naysayers and troglodytes obsessed with tunnels.”
Aye!HandandShrimp, as someone said up-thread. there are coal mine tunnels under the Forth.
Yes there are but they are all flooded – which was the reason the mine shut down. There are also complex geological problems such as, “Wilkinson’s Deep”, which, if my memories of some old Sonar charts is correct is towards the northern shore and west of the rail bridge but I cannot remember if it is further west than the road bridges.
I’m remembering back to before the road bridge was built. Just as an aside – after the road bridge was finished I worked with one of the former bridge Engineers who had then joined the Dockyard.
The work was electro/mechanical and we worked closely together – me doing the electro bit.
@Sinky.
This bridge has had major problems since 2004 when it was found to have corrosion in the support wires.I think it had lost around 10% of its structural strength due to this problem.
It was repaired by FETA, but the issues remained that the bridge was facing over capacity,and was losing structural integrity on an annual basis. All the engineer reports advised that 2020 would be the limit for the bridge coping with this volume of traffic.
So did FETA react? No,and they were still in charge this year.
Only the SNP have done anything possible to alleviate the problem,but time has caught up with them as the bridge has failed before the engineers predicted date in 5 years time.
I think we are on the same side on this issue,regardless.
The point is that the bridge has had regular inspections because of major issues which well pre date an SNP government, and found to be still suitable to allow traffic to cross.
@BDtT
Your archive says it was coming to the end of its design life. I can remember the Westminster Conservative Government of the early sixties saying it was good for 120 years when it opened in 1964.
They were lying bastards then as well as now.
Our little Stuart has being posting on the Scotsman again using his tag Claymore64, and his latest font of wisdom, Alex Salmond has known for years there was a problem on the bridge! , no really I am not kidding, you see all the miles of press coverage over the years has missed our wee claymore he actually thinks it was a secret! Bless, he posted read it and weep, I read it and wept with laughter!
Ken 500 3;48
“Do not vote Green. Dangerous psychopaths are on the loose. ”
I totally agree with you Ken although I would change the sentence to ;
“Do not vote Green. Dangerous False Flag Unionist psychopaths are on the loose.”
Whatever else they are remembered for I have no doubt along with the other Unionists they will be remembered for the desecration of the Marischal College and thereby Aberdeen.
I must take some issue about roads south of the border. The M74 existed as a three lane motorway before the Cumberland gap was brought up to the same standard. I know. We drove through the misery of the A74 upgrade and then fumed at the inadequacies of the M6, in fact I narrowly avoided being caught up in an accident caused when the three lanes merged into two just south of the border. Coming from Glasgow with a motorway that goes across the Kingston Bridge I was surprised to find out the A1 Western Bypass was a relatively new thing around Newcastle built in the 80’s. Before that the A1 drove through suburban streets as a mix of single and dual carriageway and across the Tyne Bridge, the land for the western bypass was ex-industrial and railway land ( a Thatcher dividend?)
I have also driven north up the A1, the road has constantly improved north of the border but remained unchanged except for a couple of sections of dualling for tourist purposes at Alnwick and Holy Island.
And I have driven around regions of England. Outside of the M25 the road infrastructure is very hit and miss. Access to Southampton was dire before the much protested newt squashing M23. Try driving to Penzance. That is not fun either. The M18 has made a world of difference to our journeys ‘dine scythe’ too, but that relatively new too.
There was a time when there was infrastructure improvements in Scotland, the late 70’s, but as part of Thatcher’s centralisation it stopped – and Labour never started it again.
I’m pleased to see major infrastructure happening in Scotland again, especially in the north.
And, an increase in access to fast broadband would have an impact on the need to travel at all.
Because we’ve now got “POWER” over road signs now, why can’t we just print on the signs things like
Crap roads Scotland not worthy HMGuv
Welcome to Jockistan
Awaiting Independence 2019
And I have driven around regions of England. Outside of the M25 the road infrastructure is very hit and miss.
Compared to the north east of Scotland, everywhere in England is extremely very well served by a modern fast road network, with continual upgrades.
But I gave Hull for comparison to Peterhead and the Buchan coast and if you look at Hull on google earth you can see their road connections are
M62, M180, M181 all feeding A1(M) and M1. Most of their A roads are dual carriageways feeding.connecting the motorways connecting to Leeds, Newcastle, Manchester, The South etc, all of them have massive road networks.
The North East of Scotland has nothing, but one single lane trunk road. The new AWPR is really just a dual carriage like those that cover England but thanks to an expensive protest campaign, bizarre SLabour unionists and this farce union, its 40+ years too late and doubled in cost.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-18115045
Why this protest group decided that Aberdeen and north east of Scotland should not have a road infrastructure even approaching that of England’s, is another teamGB mystery.
Daisy Walker
“I think they should name the new bridge – Fortuitous”
Or Dignity! 🙂
No time to read through comments as yet.
I guess though that Slab, Labour and the Contories would have had everyone in little row boats and then horse and carts to get around Scotland, had they been at the helm past few years. Just does not bare thinking about.
Civil Engineering “expert” Dr Scott Arthur on Radio Scotland just now
We should do what the unionists were going to do with the union jack and put a massive saltire on the new bridge at each end and a massive advertising built by the SNP
RE: England’s transport system:
If you really want to get angry, cast your eyes over the Irish Sea to the wee Emerald Isle. Miles upon miles of top grade motorway, new tram and metro systems, bridges and tunnels, fantastic infrastructure etc etc etc.
It’s a sign of what it could have been like in Scotland, had we been in control of our own resources, instead of crumbs from the imperial masters’ table.
An earlier comment suggested that corrosion on the Forth Road Bridge may have been caused by salt being used to melt ice.
Back in the late 70s I worked in the stores on the Inverness to Black Isle Bridge while it was under construction. To safeguard the men who were working on the steel and ensure that they didn’t slip on the ice, a product called Prills (something or other) was used. I was told it was made from cattle urine, and it thawed the ice, but didn’t corrode the metal like salt.
Does anyone else know about this stuff and have any more information about it? Is it used on the Forth Road Bridge?
IMPORTANT
The people Vs. Carmichael
Sorry to make a fuss, but please can you pass the message on. The brave souls from Orkney fighting disgraced Libdem MP, and former Scottish secretary, Carmichael, over his lies during the election, need more funds. They have explained that due to the nature of the process, they cannot at present give exact details of why.
The fact is, ALL of these 4 people have put their own financial future (houses etc..) on the line for this court case, and it is important we really get behind them now.
I know people are pre-occupied with Christmas, but please help, if you can donate even a small amount to their funder. Sadly their indiegogo page says the ‘target’ was 102% funded’ etc. but that is out of date, as NEW funding is required.
Please help, and also pass on the link in all your postings on twitter or whatever.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/updates
Alec Salmond on the Forth road bridge closure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlKUvtRosg8
No posts since 11.04am, weird?
For those of you previously unaware of Harry Greenway, he was MP for Ealing North and a Tory if you hadn’t guessed.
He specialised in being pictured in the local rag visiting Old Folks Homes and grinning inanely into the camera while hugging Edna who clearly thought he was her long lost nephew.
In the GE 1997 I wished for 4 things; a Tory free Scotland, a Labour Government (I know), Neil Hamilton to lose his seat, and Harry Greenway to lose and never be heard of again.
You just shafted me on the last one.
Mosstrooper says: “Scotland is to blame for people all over the world having easy access to money which they will only spend on frivolous things like food and drink. Yes we blame you John Shepherd-Barron for the ATM and you James Goodfellow a Paisley man too, for the PIN. Damnable Scots, you made our life too easy.”
Yes, and exactly what food and drink will they spend it on? Well, because Scotland is a net exporter of food and drink, it will all be wasted on whisky, smoked salmon, Highland Spring water, shortbread, etc. Those with less money will clog up their arteries with Dundee cake and Irn Bru.
It is high time that all Scots exports were accompanied by a UKOK gov health warning and, desirably, stamped all the way through like Blackpool rock with the words SNP BAD!
And that is before we even get into all the hours wasted by people all over the world reading “Treasure Island” or going to the theatre to see “Peter Pan” or the cinema to watch Sean Connery films…
http://www.snp.org/dont-bomb-syria
only 1000 more signatures required for another debate in hoc
please sign
och its a miracle the bloody thing is still standing and should have been replaced a decade ago ,these big HGV`s nowadays wreck it,it was never built for that kind of traffic nor are our roads.
I will be glad not to have to travel over it anymore it was always a bit creepy and when yon wind comes right up ye it scares the pants of you lol
Just lucky wee Eck was using it and noticed it was a wreck and started building a new one ,good guess or based on lots of deliberation through study of facts and engineering specialist into bridge construction and safety i wonder which it could be.
And all the time the onions sat on their fat arses and did squat about it even tried to stop it and now they moan about it not being done quick enough by a budget that is getting slashed to a ridiculous level.
The miracle is managing to fund the new bridge from the pittance we get back as a block grant and that it hasnt falling down yet and killed lots of people.
@ schrodingers cat
Will a further 1000 signatures trigger a HoC debate?
I thought that only applied to petitions on the official government site.
There’s already been one of those; I signed it and was duly sent a link to a video of last weeks’ charade as a consequence.
@ me – I mean last week’s, of course.
@ The Rough Bounds
I think you’re thinking of prilled urea, or carbamide. A non-corroding alternative to rock salt. Don’t know if it’s ever been used on the FRB.
@Ken500
Wish there was a like or thumbs up button on here cos I would ‘like’ every one of your posts.
Spot on.
Meanwhile the degradation of the North Sea basin continues.
Fear not, Aberdeen is not entirely full of servile quivering Yoons.
Y’know something?
If we get the whole Westminster Establishment, the unionist media, the politicians and the supporters to pile all their usual bullshit over the side of the old road bridge we wouldn’t need a new bridge but could use it to build a causeway right across the Firth.
The past catches up with us.
Another fake SNP twitter account
https://twitter.com/TheSNP_
Will the Orkney Four just put up a sorting code/a/c no and name. For people who do not have computer access or just what to pay into a bank as it is more secure. They will get twice as much and not pay (indiego)) fees,
Is Carmichael, Craig Murray’s best friend? Weird.
good question crazycat
I assumed that cos it was on the snp web site that it would be an “official” petition
@Sinky at 5.25pm
Research the “expert” background and experience. They really are in the sewers with this.
The site is under attack. Sometimes only posts till 11.04am appear. Access again and a further amount of more recent posts appear.
Looking for a chance to tell the BBC exactly what you think of their service in Scotland?
Here you go, online survey at foot of the linked page. Consider your answers and unload with both barrels
https://consultations.external.bbc.co.uk/bbc/nations/
Re the petition on SNP site-I see it as one of the ways SNP are testing the water re indyref. If you like this is a benchmark to start gauging the resistance to the seious WM decisions that affect Scotland. There’s nothing in it that says you have to be a member to sign it so we should be encouraging everyone to sign of any political persuasion or none. You will get an email acknowledgement asking you to get involved & thats it.
NS said it had to come from the people & that can be elicited in a range of ways to try to capture as much of scots opinion as possible.
How many YES groups have told their members about this? What about the elderly without internet access. Different groups require different approaches when consulting on anything to capture the broadest spectrum of opinion & numbers supporting.
I also wouldn’t be surprised to see a range of questions being asked by canvassing teams for SP16
Our Transport infrastructure is a shambles due to the NIMBYs and Unionist Naw bags.
I don’t expect the Brit Press and Media to report that the new Forth Road Bridge would have been built already but for the NIMBYs and the Unionist Naw bags. I hope they are stuck in traffic chaos of their own making. I feel sorry for those that voted Yes like me and foreseen this.
I will take this opportunity again to point out that the Dukes of Gordon and Richmond effectively held up the necessary and needed Fochabers by pass for 70 plus years. It took an SNP Govt in Scotland to say enough was enough and get it done.
Meanwhile the Naw bags would rather see some 167 Billion squandered on Nukes that will never get used.
The NIMBYs will no doubt be in action over the next few years to slow down and add to the building costs of other Road and Rail Projects in Scotland.
I do however wish the NIMBYs in southern England success in scuppering that other monumental waste of money called HS2. A project that is definitely not needed.
This reminds me of what boris Johnson said that a pound spent in Croydon is worth more than a pound spent in strathclyde. Darling is a man of the same ilk and has no ambition for Scotland.
Spookily enough, the year following Darling’s HoC question saw the opening of the 2nd Severn Bridge.
You may think any money earmarked for Forth Bridge 2 at the time could have been diverted south…..I couldn’t possibly comment.
heedtracker says:
7 December, 2015 at 11:04 am
“England’s road transport infrastructure is SO far in advance of their Scotland region, its comic/tragic. You dont even need GPS in their UKOK Scotland region, until you hit The North of England, just outside Newcastle, 21st century road transport begins.
A decade later, 2006, Europe’s oil capital still trying to cope with Victorian roads, any development blocked by unionists, rich ones too. Funny that.
Another decade later, Aberdeen might get a by-pass.”
I do recall that one of the main NIMBYs wasn’t even an ahem North East man and after having driven up the cost of the project has now fucked off to Toryland south of the Tweed.
They are just mad the new bridge will always be remembered as the bridge the SNP built just the same as the new hospital.
Infrastructure projects are a big plus in the eyes of the electorate,its a bit like crowdfunding and at the end we can all go look at what we did.
Now thats where i like to see my taxes being spent and not on some nuke bombs or mad oil grab middle east war bomb the shit out of everything and deny you kill innocents and wrap it up in the cold and callous term collateral damage before letting the vulture resource corporations in to pick the carcass clean.
Nope i would rather have a new bridge or a new hospital any day or how about some schools or maybe better daycare for busy mums or a better pension for our pensioners,improved funding for disabled and ill people,or some houses for families to grow up happy in ,have i got my priorities wrong.
Luigi: “If you really want to get angry, cast your eyes over the Irish Sea to the wee Emerald Isle. Miles upon miles of top grade motorway, new tram and metro systems, bridges and tunnels, fantastic infrastructure etc etc etc.
More attributable to EU grants than Irish independence.
Economic assessments of Ireland back in 1973 painted a very bleak picture of their economy and infrastructure. It was basically a third world country in terms of things like roads and electricity etc. I remember reading about it. Britain’s oldest colony was, unsurprisingly, one of the least developed countries in Western Europe. That’s why the EEC invested so much.
The British love to make out the Empire was a civilising and industrialising project. They built one railway line in the whole of India and they haven’t shut up about it since. Total parasites went out of their way to keep their colonies in the Stone Age.
Same goes for Scotland. They’ve been deliberately deindustrialising us since the 1970s. A third world country is easier to control than a first world country.
Angra Mainyu
I think you are a wee bit wide of the mark about the railways in India.
Between 1853 to 1880, 9000 miles of track were built in India by the British and they continued building up the network during the rest of their time in India.
Iain More says:
7 December, 2015 at 8:10 pm
heedtracker says:
7 December, 2015 at 11:04 am
He did go home, and isn’t fighting England’s giant road and rail networks either. But his rich backers are still here. They are interesting to listen to though. They say that the AWPR is actually a PFI contract and will cost £1.4 billion, at least.
Its not worth asking them stuff like why its costing so much more than it would have even a decade ago, why Scotland should not have a road network, why they wanted AWPR stopped in the first place, not because of vile separatist politics, more that they are very nice people who just don’t want change, on their patch of their Scotland, ever. They’re loaded, jobs, growth, housing are all for somewhere else.
Same mindset’s currently blocking Andy Murray’s sport centre in Dunblane. Only in the Scotland region. I can’t imagine anywhere else fighting off a project like the Murray Clan’s in his home town. Federer gets knocked back by the Swiss, Nadal by Majorca, Djokovic by the Monte Carlo nimby’s…
In 1964 a tunnel was made under the Forth , see here .
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/scotland-blog/2014/apr/30/scotland-firthofforth-coal
If a new tunnel was made between Monktonhall and Kirkcaldy , do you think it might not pay for itself in the coal extracted?
Let’s keep the the Earl of Wemyss out of this!!
If I recall correctly labour complained that the new Forth Road bridge was being built at the expense of GARL.
Memories of labour will no doubt have faded as fast the curtains going on fire!
Irony is that a new central London bridge with a garden on top of it is being planned, see https://www.gardenbridge.london
Moral of story is that if vanity projects in London are an urgent national requirement, critical projects in Scotland are at London’s discretion.
Smart folk will recognise that London holds the purse strings and decides where money is spent, wonder where their first choice will be?
Derek M
‘Have I got my priorities wrong’
Indeed not.
However I firmly believe revamping/replacing Hampden as a national sports stadium is long overdue.
For starters both Ireland and Wales now have better football stadia more suited to prestige European finals than Scotland.
Twenty years ago that was unthinkable.
Re; DerekM@7.11 pm
And of course let’s not forget who destroyed the rail freight industry in ukok, yes you guessed right,
it was Snatcher. She completely dismantled rail frieght so that it had to all go onto road. Absolutely despicable. Almost all of our goods were once transported by rail, the toll, no pun intended, on the roads is obviously very costly.
O/T when in NE England recently I saw that the A1 is being upgraded there, funny that I wonder where the money is coming from?
I think the new Forth Bridge should be called THANK FUCK.
Legerwood, whose bloody side you on…
Anyway, I assume all those 9000 miles were connected in some way which technically means they built one railway line.
And it suited them to build railways for the purposes of shipping resources in and out. Ghandi talked about all that in some detail. They actually deliberately destroyed age old industries like salt making and textiles so that the Indians would need to buy British stuff.
As an aside, for those who don’t live near the new bridge, it is actually starting to look pretty impressive. Towers look higher than the original bridge – and they currently have cranes perched on top of them.
Thank goodness the SNP Scottish Government paid no heed to Labour or the greens when they decided to go ahead with the bridge.
For many years a friend of mine worked on the East of Scotland rail line. He enjoyed the job, but any time the subject of infrastructure came up his frustration and anger was palpable.
From rolling stock to track and electrification (or lack of), he was angry at the paucity of investment. This was during the 70s, 80s and 90s. It was the first time I heard the use of the expression “spit and chewing gum” when referring to the Scottish system.
During one meeting with him, I mentioned a newspaper story concerning bits falling off the Forth rail bridge. Apparently not serious, just cosmetic. I recall his response clearly to this day.
He told me the Fife line was not profitable, and if the Forth or Tay bridges were deemed unsafe, traffic could be routed through Perth, leaving the Fife line as a tourist attraction of what once was after the closure of an unwanted line, forcing the Forth road crossing to bear even more traffic.
I doubted him, as it seemed ridiculous that such an underhand plan would even be considered. I remember him laughing, loud and long at my innocence.
I last saw him in 2005, when I pointed out the renovation work being done on the Forth and Tay bridges. He smiled and spoke of the problems the Forth Road Bridge was experiencing with the supporting cables. “Don’t think it’s coincidence, Kenny”.
Alec sadly died, much too young, due to cancer in 2008.
His dark sardonic Scottish wit would find much to be amused about, concerning recent events, were he still around.
These were his opinions. Take them as such. But Alec was the sort of sharp, intelligent, streetwise Scot we have produced for generations. Sadly he didn’t believe Scotland would ever be independent, as too many Scots are, in his words, “mugs”.
R.I.P. Alec. Do I hear laughter in paradise?
Angra Mainyu
The side of truth and accuracy. You should try it some time rather than peddle inaccuracies that undermine whatever case you are trying to make, and not succeeding.
See wee Stuarty the spanner is back again,whats up Stuart has the Boys Brigade been cancelled tonight?
O/T – I think I’ve had it with bellacaledonia. This evening’s article entitled ‘Scotland: The Utopia that Never Was’ is just another plea for our second vote.
Only this time they’re not wooing us. The editor has decided to insult us, here are my top 10 insults from the article. Read it and have a go I’m sure you can find your own 10.
Did you know:
1. We are the morally certain reactionary branch of the dead Yes campaign.
2. We are an obtrusive minority of unconsidered opinion.
3. We unconsciously exploit every political moment – even ones where people die.
4. We are Scotland’s puritanical fringe.
5. We think Braveheart is a documentary.
6. We have the National delivered to our ego.
7. We live in a world where the next referendum is just around the corner.
8. Our kind of independence is shallow and self serving.
9. We are only voting for indy because it will make us better off.
10. Our type of Nationalism is a disease.
By the way, it’s OK for the author to say this because he’s shared a platform with ‘Nicola’ and ‘Alex’. Unfortunately our antics “Have pushed (him) away from a party (he) has been supporting for 10 years”. I’m sure he’ll be sorely missed.
Scotsman questioning replacement crossing back in 2012, at least in first paragraph. Then goes onto set out reasons why it makes sense. Strange…
https://archive.is/ZSGDA
Robert Louis 6.15, I fully agree that the Orkney Four should be supported. I’ve contributed four times now, but I’ll willingly do it again if they are still going to need more. I know it’s getting very near Christmas now folks, but even a fiver or a tenner will help these brave souls. Every little helps, as a well known supermarket chain says.
Jim McIntosh 9.47. I’m with you on the Bella Caledonia sight. I’ve given it up as well this past wee while. I look in now and again, but to be honest I’ve not been too impressed with a lot of their articles.
Has to be SNP x 2 in May.
@ Jim McIntosh
I agree ith you. That Loki article is awful. Just an ill-informed, insulting rant.
It’s not even so much the SNP he’s maligning – it’s us, who vote for them, and who voted Yes, as he did.
It’s incredible stuff, and not in a good way.
And predictably, the unionists are loving it. Tweeting it already.
If I had had any thoughts whatsoever about giving my second vote to “Rise” (and I did, for a few fleeting moments when they first surfaced), then this would have killed them off completely.
This kind of negative, insulting fury of the “hard left” does nothing for me, I’m afraid. And I’m of a leftish persuasion.
The SNP appeals to BOTH left and right – and that is the essential elephant in the room that Loki has entirely missed in his understanding of the situation. We have to garner and persuade ALL sections of Scottish society – NOT JUST THE ANGRY LEFT – to go for independence.
If we don’t manage to do that, then we don’t get independence. And without independence, then we have precisely Sweet Fanny Adams.
The Bella article finished me with them, I was on their mailing list so that is how it arrived, said my twopence worth and duly unsubscribed. Who needs friends like that?
SNPx2
Ledgerwood, the essence of my account of British India was fundallymundilly true and you know it. Britain raped India and deliberately stifled economic development, just as it did in Ireland and elsewhere.
And since they got kicked out of India they haven’t stopped bragging about a stupid railway line that for some reason you too seem quite impressed by too.
My guess is you are some old hun or something with fond memories of the day when the Irish as well as the punkawallahs knew their place…
As I’m sure all us WoS folk know, we trust no-one but a very strange thing happened to night when soneone re-tweeted a comment I made from Sept 2014, tonight.
A bit odd?
Jim McIntosh, I’m surprised that you find that sort of abuse unusual for Bella.
You need to remember that they are basically middle-class intellectuals and superior to us. We are their lumpinproletariat but fear not, they’ll soon be out with the begging bowl again looking for donations from us.
More than anything, though, I find the whole atmosphere of their arty farty cliched website just completely boring; it reads like some free arts supplement you’d get with a brochure from Ikea, the sort of thing you find yourself flicking through in the waiting room of dentist or an STD clinic…
platinum says:
7 December, 2015 at 11:47 am
If anyone wants to learn how to build a proper modern, fast, safe and fully comprehensive road network, that is also the safest in the world for cyclists, and best for keeping residential roads quiet, slow and safe, we don’t need to copy the English – we need to copy the Dutch. After spending only a couple of days driving over there coming back up the A68 felt postively medieval.
Sorry to disagree, platinum, but we should copy the Norwegians and build tunnels where possible. Just back from Norge and have to say that anyone who has not experienced the revolution of tunnel building that has taken place in Norway since the mid-70s hasn’t a clue as to the economic and social benefits that can accrue by building (where technically feasible ) tunnels instead of bridges and using ferries.
At only £10 million per km they have developed an infrastructure solution which has produced massive local and regional development, and every time I hear a demand for a new ferry, bridge,by-pass or terrain stabilising measure where tunnelling could provide a more durable and effective solution I despair. For God’s sake let’s get off our knees and do something different, rather than keep trying to apply yesterday’s solutions to today’s problems.
Alan…. I don’t like tunnels. I prefer bridges.
Sorry.
Hi Angra Mainyu.
You suggested,
“or an STD clinic…”
I bow to your superior experience in the field of STD clinics.
I’ve never had to attend one so I wouldn’t know.
As for the editor of bella, the phrase “Everyone has their price”comes to mind. Promises of a wee well paid job in the EBC (London, Glasgow would be too dodgy).
Scotland has been riddled with placemen for 300 years, we certainly do not need them now or in the future! We the People of Scotland are in a besieged shiltron, We need to push not split up! Remember “Divide and conquer is the favourite tactic of the wastemonster elite”.
The harder tories of all colours smear, lie, the more certain I am that standing together is our stongest tactic and the SNP will get us an Independent Scotland.
If you want out and away from this tory controlled madness, vote SNP x 2 and keep voting SNP, that and laugh at their placemen, the more they don’t like it the more we’ll give them. We will only get stronger not weaker by their attacks.
@Jim McIntosh says:
7 December, 2015 at 9:55 pm
“O/T – I think I’ve had it with bellacaledonia. This evening’s article entitled ‘Scotland: The Utopia that Never Was’ is just another plea for our second vote.”
———
Took a look – what a bunch of self-righteous garbage.
No problem with them posting from a wide range of viewpoints, but that was a ridiculous blend of Daily Mail and Socialist Worker.
I think his point is that we should abandon the idea of self-government because we will still have wealthy farmers, and some SNP voters might be close-minded suckers who like branding and Braveheart and aren’t actually real revolutionaries from Pollock. Or something like that. Very strange.
FFS
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendumnews/14129933.Scotland___s_new_powers_should_be____use_it_or_lose_it_____Lords_to_hear/?ref=rss
“Scotland’s new tax and welfare powers should be devolved on a “use it or lose it” basis, the House of Lords will hear today.
If they still lie idle after three years they should be taken back by Westminster, Scottish Labour peer Lord Maxton will argue.
His party colleague Lord Foulkes will also call for a new Scottish senate, arguing an extra chamber is necessary to counter the dominance of the SNP.”
Re the Bellacaledonia article
“Nationalism in its basest form, like all diseases of perception, is virtually imperceptible to the sufferer. So when a nationalist swears blind they are not a nationalist, at least you know they are telling the truth.”
The writer obviously fails to distinguish between civic and ethnic nationalism. A common failure of the left. They have no grasp of history. They don’t understand that the Nation State superceded Feudalism.
Let’s not allow “divide and rule” to splinter the YES vote. Ignore this taunt. The internet is ephemeral.
Well, I read the Loki article and thought it was a lot of fun. The guy who wrote it is clearly unstable — anyone who thinks rapping in a Glasgow accent is acceptable is obviously nuts.
He also seems to think being brought up in Pollok is on a par with living through the Cuban Revolution or something. I have some familiarity with this area, it’s as politically charged as a sack full of kittens and rocks at the bottom of a lake.
I know of 3 people from Pollok who made a name for themselves in politics; 1) Johanne Lamont, 2) Tommy Sheridan, and 3) Rosie Kane.
As I understand it, Rosie Kane packed in politics and now thinks she is a comedienne. She was much funnier when she thought she was a politician. As for Tommy and Lamont, what can I say…
A lot of what Loki said about the independence movement was insulting, and a lot of the insults had some truth in them. For example, I’ve come up against unquestioningly loyalty to “Nicola” in here a few times; if history has taught us anything, it’s that blind loyalty and the ‘cult of the personality’ is not only dangerous and unhealthy, but is also suffocating and degrading.
We need to hope that the independence movement is able to take criticism where it’s fair and tell self-aggrandising pricks like Loki to eff off where it isn’t. The guy fancies his chances as a personality and his betrayal will be judged accordingly.
One thing I would ask people in here to consider and it was hinted at in Loki’s article: it’s important that the SNP do not take us( it’s support base) for granted. That’s the road to ruination for them and us.
Making the SNP work for our support, with us constantly questioning and pushing, should never be interpreted as disloyalty or a bad thing. It’s the one thing that might keep the momentum going over the next few years and help us avoid that stinking malaise that other political parties suffer from when they are successful.
Loki is more interested in Loki than he is in anything else.
It is a piece created for self grandisement rather than for fact.
It is aimed not to make you think, but rather to tell you that you are not thinking the right way.His way.
We hang together or we hang separately.That was our way in Glasgow. Something Loki seems to have forgotten from his “working class” background.
Those days must seem so very far away now.
Bella, you are poorer for the experience of Loki. Hopefully this will be translated into a poverty of numbers and thus revenue.Goodbye.
Loki (Darren) – don’t know the guy. But from what Quinie frae Angus says: “And predictably, the unionists are loving it. Tweeting it already.”
and from what Loki says:
“Now surely someone like me, who can make a point people on both sides may actually agree on, is of some use in this harsh and hostile environment?”
perhaps he’s achieved part of his purpose?
Angra Mainyu 2.52am,
Nicola Sturgeon is the best person to lead the SNP at the moment.She is hugely popular amongst the membership and the general public.Uncritical? Well,come on then.Nows yer chance.Tell us all what’s wrong with Nicolas leadership.And as to the SNP in general,yes,it’s hugely important for members to get along to branch meetings and express their opinions,be they political or to do with the organisation and structure.
Don’t vote Green in any shape or form. Those two despicable liars who have wasted £Million/Billions of taxpayers money. Ford/Storr are a couple of low lives liars. They stopped the AWPR for ten years. Thry have tried to ruined the NE economy and wasted £Million/Billions of taxpayers money. They stopped the airport expansion. They told a pack of lies about the Trump Development and tried to stop that. The Unionist/Green have ruined the City centre with a carbuncle that is appalling. They have wasted£Million/Billion of taxpayers money and then claim there is no money for public services. They are insane. Totally against the majority wishes or the public interest.
Unionist/Green have spent £33Million renovating an Art Gallery, shut for three years. They are building a carbuncle (£Millions/Billions) which the majority do not want. It will ruin and dwarf the City centre, creating more congestion and stress. They refused £80Million to pedestrianise the City. UTG project. They are getting the City into £Million/Billions of debt. Wasted on schemes that are not supported. They have created further traffic chaos, They have spent £26Million paying off AECC debt. They now plan to spend £330Million on another Conference Centre that will not pay but be subsidised with public money, in Crocket’s constituency. They rejected the Plans for a new football stadium (south) which could have incorporated conference facilities, and kept traffic out of the City. The Unionist/Green have been sanction many times, but waste £Million/Billions of public money.
The Tories have destroyed the Oil sector. Thousands of jobs have been lost, because of the illegal 75% tax. Oil & Gas has to be imported putting up the deficit and the debt. The Tories have cut investment for renewables . Thry have banned wind turbines and investment in solar. They are wasting £Billions on nuclear power, HS2 and Heathrow expansion, when the money could be better spent. Anywhere but Heathrow. They are wasting £Billions on illegal wars, killing and maiming innocent people. Tax evasion by the wealthiest (them) is losing £Billions. The Tax Laws in the UK are not bring enforced. HMRC is a shambles. The Tories are not supporting Healthcare/NHS but are sanctioning and starving vulnerable people. Against the public wishes and the public interest.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.
Five years ago the SNP were a minority gov. The Unionists were still in collusion controlling the Parliament, as any colluding Unionist/BBC engineer would know. The BBC continuing to muck rack for their lying Unionist paymasters. Muck raking pigs. Desperate to smear the SNP. The bridge will fall down even with maintenance. It is past it’s sell by date. Not fit for purpose with the increased traffic volumes. That is why the SNP are investing in a new Bridge.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence, for a better economy and prosperity. Don’t vote for warmongering coarse liars.
Independence for Scotland is inevitable -it’s not rampant nationalism that makes it so, it’s a WM political elite who do not understand participative democracy unless its concerned with policy viewed through the lens of entitlement and privilege.
What do readers think of the disgusting 2 page spread in this mornings National comparing The Covenanters with Daesh?
http://www.thenational.scot/news/councillors-who-postponed-forth-road-bridge-repairs-until-2016-are-blamed-for-closure-crisis.10927
Article in The National by respected journalist Martin Hannah says that in 2009 Labour controlled FETA delayed vital repairs to the Forth Road Bridge joints to 2016 in order to save £6 million.
On Foulkes and his senate wheeze: at the simplest level we could just vote in lots of SNP senators.
However that wouldn’t be the way the Westminster wanks would want to do it. It would be an imposed system.
The senator second chamber idea for Westminster was still be from those put forward by the different parties, but with SNP the biggest party in Hollyrood they would still dominate with most senators.
That would leave one last possibility of Westminster deciding the make up, specifically designed to outweigh the SNP.
If at that point the voters of Scotland accepted this, an idea put forward by the party that lost catastrophically in Scotland and failed very badly to persuade England to vote for them, then ‘we’ would thoroughly deserve the very worst that comes ‘our’ way.
From
Vote NO for devo max, federal ukok promised an historic shyster, now hired by hedge fund worth £1.5 trillion, in case youre wondering where some 49+ years of NOT Scots oil and gas revenue went. UKOK rewards are there
http://gordonandsarahbrown.com/2014/09/the-new-scotland-act/
to
Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 17 hrs17 hours ago
Blair McDougall Retweeted Scotsman
Would be ludicrous for the SNP Government to walk away from new powers. Should stay around the table & get deal. Blair McDougall added,
To “get a deal” sounds about right really, under relentless smear SNP campaigning at the BBC etc
galamcennalath said earlier:
“If it had been in the SE of England it would have been deemed important to the whole of the U.K. and paid for as part of a national infrastructure plan.”
Funny you should say that because the sister bridge to the Forth Road Bridge, The Severn Bridge was replaced in 1996 with the Second Severn Crossing – faults were also found with the (old) Severn Bridge and heavy good vehicles were banned from the bridge many years ago.
Mealer, I don’t want to say anything negative about Nicola Sturgeon on here and I think you should refrain from inviting people to do so.
The independence movement is bigger than any one person though and personality politics is beneath it and dangerous.
Ken500, good post on the Greens. I know a few people who are careerists in the environmentalist movement, every single one of them is like that. I used to think they were anti-human but they aren’t, they’re anti-working class. They’re also the most materialistic people I have ever known and have massive carbon footprints.
OT the unelected Lords are talking about Scotland. None of their business, they dont represent us yet ‘Lord’ Foulkes is proposing an upper chamber for Holyrood to ‘srutinise’ legislation. Guess what voting system he wants. Yes, Single Transferable Vote, as used in Local Authority elections.
And why does he want that system? Because its the only system that allows the ‘anybody but SNP’ party to get in.
They are desperate.
Angra Mainyu
Are you and Loki not the same person ?
Are you and Loki not the same person?
No. If you compare our writings, you’ll see I’m much more cogent.
…on the Scotland Bill amendments again, I wonder if anyone in the House of Lords sees the irony in an unelected chamber debating what form of democracy to impose on someone else.
Perhaps they could start by applying the Single Transferrable Vote system to their own chamber.
The HoL should be abolished. A bunch of useless, lying, greedy, coarse troughers. Tax evaders.
I left a comment under the idiotic Bella rant.
We are fighting to regain our nationhood. There is only one party dedicated to that cause. Once we have autonomy secure then, and only then, can we indulge in the luxury of tossing squibs at our government.
The mature approach is to show determined silence when faced by false attacks, treat casual criticism as politically infantile, or to express integrity for our elected government.
To do otherwise is to do the work of the Unionites unpaid!
Ken500@10.20,
And that is what George Foulkes wants for the Scottish Parliament. Another Layer of useless bastards like himself in a Senate.
Maybe he wants to go back to the days when you could be a super trougher like Ian Paisley. He was a MEP, a MP, a MLA and First Minister at the same time. It’s a bloody wonder he wasn’t a Councillor as well.
Perhaps Geordie Boy wants the Law changed so he can be a Lord, a Scottish Senator, an MP, an MSP, a MLA and an AM and a Glasgow City Councillor at the same time? I wouldn’t put it past the greedy git. Wasn’t he the one that wasted tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money asking silly useless questions in Parliament, including three at £300 about space hoppers?
Stephen.
O/T
Those yanks falling over themselves to critisize Donald Trump would do well to remember that their US ‘exceptionalism’ has come home to roost.
And while US President in waiting Trump is beyond the pale he is not as far beyond it as those slimey, dogooder, politically correct careerist politicians who speak softly but wouldn’t hesitate at bombing kids in far away countries, at least you know what you’re getting with him, however distasteful.
It was the Jews in the 30’s thru to the fifties. The persecution of Muslims has been in full swing since 2003, this is just the latest episode. Anyone who hasn’t noticed that is simply as thick as those docile German citizens who went along with it last century.
“The mature approach is to show determined silence when faced by false attacks”
Lol yeah I agree. Don’t refer to them in any way, pretend they don’t exist. What are we talking about?
Trump is not representative of the majority of US public opinion. A glitch
Westminster is spending Scottish tax payers money building costly Navel vessels. What should be build is frigates, trawlers, liners supply boats, ferries and turbines for profit. Unionists Scotland did not vote for, are illegally wasting Scottish taxpayers money, with no mandate.
Greens renege on their own policies.
Angra: “pretend they don’t exist”
Look before you leap; it is the exact opposite. You show your dislike of churlish crapology by responding with a stone cold stare.
There’s such a thing as getting caught up in and obsessive about posting crap righteousness on websites – ‘get a life’ is the conventional response.
Re; Angry mianyu@ pain in the neck o clock
Much of what AM says is verging on dangerous. (a word they seem keen on)
Comments actually contradict themselves, nice, bad, I am like you and with you people pretendy crap.
It is a ploy to attempt to instill doubt about the SNP, and an attempt to instill doubt about independence in the minds of Wings readers. Not only that AM is very possibly more than one mole.
I have seen it before, so Ignore ignore ignore, waste of our time.
More important things to do and read and comment on good people here at Wings over Scotland.
Re; Gerry@1.47am
Use it or lose it, just who do these people think they are to dictate to the Scottish government.
Hands twisted behind our backs, verging on blackmail. Do as we say or else. Proof that devolution in unionists eyes is power retained and only on their terms.
Wonder how long it will be before they start to talk of scrapping the Scottish parliament. Would they then depose and lock up Nicola Sturgeon and her cabinet, not so far fetched given the right wing unionist westmonster trajectory. There it is again, ‘tory’ it is everywhere, like s***e on your shoe,
@ Angra Mainyu
You have a lot to say, don’t you. A wee dig at this group here, a wee dig at that group there. Stir it up, ’cause division in the indy movement. The indy movement won’t be divided by your pathetic efforts, you can bank on that.
Away you go you unionist, trolling fraud.
SNP x 2 SE2016.
Ken500
Trump not representative of US public opinion?
OK, maybe.
So, was Hitler and the crusade against the Jews??
I think you’ll find the same set of circumstances. Off on a tangent here – what always asmazes me is that today’s human, almost in a matter of fact sort of way, thinks itself smarter, more intelligent that humans from a hundred years ago. Or two hundred. Or several thousand.
Sorry, not crusade against the jews, persecution of. We save the crusades for Islam.
Almost at 100,000 signatures. Come on folks. If you haven’t added your name to the Syria petition please do so:
http://www.snp.org/dont-bomb-syria
100,000 signatories and Westminster has to sit up and pay attention.
Proud Cybernat, I’ve actually been defending us, you’re wrong but I won’t expect you to acknowledge that.
Also, I’ve been advocating SNP SNP. Go look.
You seem to think you speak for independence supporters as a whole. You don’t. Neither do the SNP.
Angra Mainyu says: or an STD clinic…
whats wrong with STD clinics? you might need one when you grow up…
schrodingers cat says: 2:05 pm
whats wrong with STD clinics?
I think the revs organ needs one, its gone funny!
@ Angra Mainyu
“Proud Cybernat, I’ve actually been defending us, you’re wrong but I won’t expect you to acknowledge that.”
You’ve been on this blog stirring shit. You spend much of your time sowing seeds of doubt, putting digs in to this or that group in the indy movement. United we stand doesn’t seem to have any resonance with you at all as you always are much to eager to cause division.
You are a ‘concern trolling’ fraud.
GYTF.
SNP x 2 SE2016
Testing
Andrew
I noticed that
Trump is a glitch. It is just ego publicity seeking. Best ignored. There are Laws to deal with it. All his funding will be withdrawn. It is a money making attempt by Trump. It will not succeed. Funding will be withdrawn. Ignorance and arrogant is not an excuse. A waste of time, space and money. Trump is not a serious contender. Even the Americans are fed up of eternal war and suffering of innocent people (including them) worldwide. The Americans arm themselves against their own government. Such is the mistrust.
Not all Jews are bad. Israel is an Apartheid State. Many Jews do not support it’s ideology. Israel breaks the Jewish religious code. Israel breaks the 10 Commandments. It is misguided US gov funding and arming that keeps it going. That support is even waning. Many Americans are sick of endless futile war. Even someIsraelis are sick of it.
http://www.wingsoverscotland.com/the-trouble-with-lords
Osborne is illegally taxing the Scottish Oil sector at 75% . Destroying the Scottish/UK economy. Illegally using Scottish taxpayers money on illegal military intervention without a mandate. Osbourne is a criminal liar who should be in jail.
Vote SNP/SNP Vote for Independence.
@Les Wilson says: 7 December, 2015 at 10:52 pm:
“The Bella article finished me with them … “.
I reached that conclusion about Bella quite some time ago.
Thing is it is not just a move made towards RISE but an all out attack upon the YES movement in general and the SNP in particular.
Rather like the idiotic George Bush, “If you are not for us then you are against us”, mentality.
Such stupid attacks turn friends into enemies every bit as quickly as a knife in the back.
Proud Cybernat, you’re out of order.
People pick on me and I respond and if you look into that you’ll see I’ve been quite passive in responding.
There are two issues that a few people probably disagree with me on in here, again you can check; 1) I want another indyref asap, and 2) I am not into blindly cheerleading for the SNP, they need to deliver.
Even if you don’t agree with my views on the above, I would have thought that I might have a legitimate right to say them.
But I’ll withdraw from the site now. I’m not here to cause division. Who do I see about getting my donations back? (sorry, that was intended as a joke which I understand now aren’t allowed).
Anyway. Good luck to Rev and all of you; this is a great website. Despite the utter paranoid bullshit, we are all on the same side and I know that even if some here don’t.
Ken500@12.41,
As the old saying goes, from your mouth to God’s ears. I don’t think for one minute Trump will be President, as I can’t see him gaining the Republican nomination. But if he did win the Republican nomination, and that is a very big if, then I think he has a very good chance of becoming President.
But I can’t see the GOP giving him the time of day. Thank God. But if they did, we’re all fucked. So let’s hope they give him the bums rush?
Stephen.
bye angra
don’t let the STD clinic door skelp you on the arse etc….
(sorry, that was intended as a joke which I understand now aren’t allowed).
joke mate, you are about as funny as running out of toilet paper, that’s yer problem
A ‘angra’ man in conflict with himself:
Angra: “People pick on me
Despite the utter paranoid bullshit”
Last time I stepped into a handbag fight I got a broken nose. but here we go again, some folks never learn eh?
Angry and Proud, We need to encompass all shades of opinion in our movement some will be champing at the bit, others carefully and considered but this gives us strength, not only as a democratic strength but as cultural strength, and it’s this cultural strength and awareness that will be the catalyst that fuels the progression of our nation, to the realisation of all that we need not be reliant on our neighbour’s control and rule, to obtain the self control and independence that is ours by right.
And this John Carson fellow? That’s the same name as the chap who wanted to cancel the Edinburgh Trams when the line was at an advanced stage of construction. Had such advice been followed, Edinburgh would have been left with a big bill in return for some incomplete infrastructure – and no actual trams.
As for transport infrastructure generally, the M90 is legally termed a “Scottish Motorway”, and built to the specification of the former Scottish Development Agency, in other words, a glorified dual carriageway with emergency laybys. Transport on the cheap in this corner of the Yookay!
Perhaps we could always get some civil engineers to defend the Yookay? I know, how about Heriot-Watt? We could always ask Dr Scott Arthur or his boss, Prof Paul Jowett? They seem keen to defend Scotland’s position within the Yookay!
@Bob Mack
“Loki is more interested in Loki than he is in anything else.
It is a piece created for self grandisement rather than for fact.
It is aimed not to make you think, but rather to tell you that you are not thinking the right way.His way.”
The irony being that in the last article I read from him in Bella he was berating indy folk for NOT seeing their opponent’s POV.
@James Barr Gardner
“Scotland has been riddled with placemen for 300 years, we certainly do not need them now or in the future! We the People of Scotland are in a besieged shiltron, We need to push not split up! Remember “Divide and conquer is the favourite tactic of the wastemonster elite”.
The harder tories of all colours smear, lie, the more certain I am that standing together is our stongest tactic and the SNP will get us an Independent Scotland.”
Brian McNeill:
“Ah, there’s no gods and there’s precious few heroes
But there’s plenty on the dole in the land o’ the leal
And I’m damn sure that there’s plenty live in fear
Of the day we stand together with our shoulders to the wheel”
Says it all that Wings has to go back to 1995 for a quote!
Not more mischief about bridges: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2NE
Look up the wiki entry for AM’s name & decide for yourself-I did several weeks ago.
PeatWorrier
The fatal hour, come around at last. Election Court to decide Alistair Carmichael case tomorrow morning.
http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/25/1532/Morrison-and-others-v-Alistair-Carmichael-MP-and-another …