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Altered States

Posted on December 06, 2015 by

There’s absolutely no news today – Scottish politics already seems to have packed up for Christmas – so why not watch a nice documentary instead?

Altered States has been available in episode form for a wee while now, but McMaster Media have kindly put together a full-length cut exclusively for Wings Over Scotland.

It’s a fascinating analysis with lots of insightful chat from – among others – the likes of Derek Bateman, Paul “Wee Ginger Dug” Kavanagh, James “Scot Goes Pop” Kelly and Christopher Silver, to whose pre-indyref “Scotland Yet” it’s basically a post-indyref counterpart, and it’s a perfect way to pass a slow, rainy Sunday.

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    1. 06 12 15 10:43

      Altered States | Speymouth

    201 to “Altered States”

    1. theMadMurph says:

      oh, hello tiger!

      oh oh oh oh oh, bye bye!!

    2. Betsy says:

      Video is password protected.

    3. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      A well put together video!

    4. Christine Sinclair says:

      That music makes it very hard to bear.

    5. Donald MacKenzie says:

      I’m not getting sound.

    6. @Betsy

      Works for me bar I cannot get any sound.

    7. @Betsy

      Works for me bar I cannot get any sound.

    8. alexicon says:

      @ Betsy.

      Not for me when I opened the thread and played the vid from there, but the rev has also told you the password: tiger.

    9. Proud Cybernat says:

      Nae sound. All other youtube videos work fine.

    10. Capella says:

      Stu says above, the password is “tiger”.
      Also, re sound, it is silent for the forst few seconds.

      I’ve watched these as individual clips and they are excellent. Great to see Paul Kavanagh, Derek Bateman and James Kelly on camera. Good archive footage as well. Just shows – it can be done.

    11. Hi rev according to youtube

      This video previously contained a copyrighted audio track. Due to a claim by a copyright holder, the audio track has been muted.

    12. Proud Cybernat says:

      Audio track has been muted because of copyright infringement.

    13. alexicon says:


      Brewer just couldn’t resist plugging Roden’s attempted smear in on his Sunday politics show.

    14. Well that certainly did not brighten up a wet Sunday!

      Not to sure what to make of that Bateman fellow,a bit to negative for my taste,doesn`t sound like he is a fan of Nicola or the SNP,

      Will stick to reading your stuff Stu if you don`t mind ,I want reality/ truth not some unsubstantiated opinion piece.

    15. Waistcoat Tearer says:

      Unfortunately no sound on this.

      O/T – Gordon Brewer on Sunday Politics…what a complete t****r. Interview with Stephen Gethins was a disgrace ( although I thought Stephen managed it very well), and then goes on to highlight the Sunday Tory headline of another attempted SNP smear campaign. Yet even he admitted it was a non story .
      So why show it in the first place?

    16. lumilumi says:

      Thanks for this, Rev Stu. Will watch it in between our traditional Independence Day TV fare.

      Yes, independent Finland is 98 years old today! 🙂

      (If you could pick the date for Independence Day, early December is just about the worst. Darkest time of the year, usually no snow, sleet, horizontal rain. Not a good time for street parties or picnics 😀 )

    17. Ken500 says:

      The site is being attacked.

      The BBC is controlled by Westminster. The BBC is a disgrace. Public money is being wasted on ‘Journalists’ affluent salaries. The BBC ‘journalists’ are being paid by Cameron et al tax evaders. Funded by Non Dom tax evaders. The Unionists parties and the BT Referendum campaign are funded by Tax evading Non Doms. Cameron/Osborne and their associates. The Pollsters are tax evading Non Doms. They are sanctioning and starving vulnerable people, to protect their tax evaded wealth.

    18. caledonia says:

      No sound for me neither

    19. Sassenach says:

      alexicon says: “Brewer just couldn’t resist plugging Roden’s attempted smear in on his Sunday politics show.”

      I though Brewster struggled all through the programme trying to do his SNP Baaaad bits. The SNP MP didn’t allow him to get his was with interuptions, and his ‘correpondent ‘ in Paris gave Nicola a pretty fair report.

      Even his final ‘stab’ at the DM smear was a bit half-hearted – he’s probably in a darkened room by now, wondering where it all went wrong!!!

    20. McBoxheid says:

      I can’t access the vid from Germany in may contain music that isn’t licenced under the GEMA agreement 🙁

    21. Beth Watt says:

      ‘There’s absolutely no news today’? Really? Are we all going to ignore the fact that an SNP MP has allegedly dodged paying tax? Would we honestly ignore this if it were one of the Scottish Labour/LibDem/Tory MPs?

    22. mealer says:

      It’s a beautiful sunny day.

    23. Moreida Lord says:

      I can’t get any sound ????

    24. ArtyHetty says:

      I watched these in the 3 parts, all very good but very depressing in the final one and disagree with D Bateman, that we just have to lie down and take the beating from ukok, no thanks Derek!

      Well, there is plenty of stuff going on in the world, lots of crap in fact, it’s getting worse.
      Here is one article to depress, partly about that non news event, COP21.

      I thought I saw that a right wing daily rag was going to have something on an SNP MP today, is that true and is it good ‘news’ then? :()

      Read an article in Common Dreams online last night, thoroughly depressing about the US styling themselves on Isreali tactics for population control using the successful oppression of the Palestians as an example. Chilling indeed.

      Oh and it’s very sunny in Edinburgh so off out to check on sheds at allotment.

      Have a good Sunday all.

    25. Edward says:

      Well tried watching it but is silent all the way through
      which is disappointing to say the least
      According to YouTube the Audio track has been muted due to copyright

    26. Marcia says:

      You have been silenced.

    27. heedtracker says:

      Speak up:D

      Viewers in Scotland have their own UKOK red tory propaganda. BUT, if you can, watch BBC iplayer tory England propaganda in action via their Sunday Politics London show this morn

      Perfect example of chronic far right corruption at the BBC, or not.

      Its only interesting to watch how blue tory England owns the BBC in England and direct contrast to how hard the BBC in Scotland try get SLabour back in, in their Scotland region.

    28. ArtyHetty says:

      Re: Beth Watt@12.45

      You have to laugh really. You are perfectly correct we would all be up in arms if a unionist MP dodged tax, because we know they are little angels and would never rip off their own country folk!

      The millionaires’ mega riches came about because they paid every bit of tax they should have, aye, and I am father Xmas.

      Talking of which did anyone see the new tory job creation scheme? They are saying the unemployed should take up bit parts as, faither xmas! Ho Ho Ho.

      Well it beats conscription I am sure and will be over by xmas, unlike the contory red tory war.

      Ha Ha Ha.

    29. gordoz says:

      Guys –

      Copy Altered State into youtube and all 3 parts are still available with sound !!

    30. Just read a Guardian article on, and by Kezia D. Mostly centred on her powers of deduction and awareness, however, she states that her Dad believes that Scotland is oppressed and it is oppressed by the English. Pretty sure he means Westminster but, Heh!, she knows best Eh !!!!

    31. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Beth Watt . There,s nothing ( allegedly ) about it He,s addmitted he worked for a company who had employee contracts that avoided paying tax.

      He,s taking Tax Avoidence & HMRC to task, with his questions in HoC.

    32. Angra Mainyu says:

      ArtyHetty, could agree more, Bateman reveals his pro-establishment roots and bias all too often.

      The referendum was a sham, reminiscent of the sort of pro-Russian democracy you’d expect in Ukraine or one of the other Soviet satellites.

      You can’t use have a state controlled media spouting out lies and threats 24/7 for months in the run up to a referendum, then claim the predictable result was democratically achieved.

      I’ve noticed middle-class people generally, like Bateman, despite professing to support independence, are always urging us to wait and be patient and accept the result.

      He and others who say that have no special gift in terms of being able to predict anything. It’s just as likely that waiting and being patient will kill the I dependence movement stone dead. I actually already see interest and enthusiasm waning because of a lack of progress.

      Add to that the likely splits and fractures that are starting to appear and grow in the movement and it’s a no-brainer.

      Waiting suits the bastards, it doesn’t suit Scotland. We’re about to be dragged into an apocalyptic war and we have SNP representatives urging us on Sunday TV to accept the decision and get behind the troops. Fuck that.

      Is that the deal, then? Support the troops, support the SNP, expect nothing? What next? Support the food banks, maybe we should be proud to have food banks eh?

      The cowardly self-serving middle-class careerists now have a foothold in the movement it would seem and Bateman speaks for them.

    33. donald anderson says:

      Cannae get the sound tae work.

    34. Ghillie says:

      This brings back happy memories! I watched this film with my sons at a local pub, in the run up to the Referendum.

      Amongst amazing company: the folk of THE Edinburgh Radical Independent bookshop, Word Power (who organised showing ‘Scotland Yet’).

      One of the film producers was there, how cool is that!

      AND ACTUALY MET some of the people who had manned the vigal for Scottish Home Rule outside the Scottish Office on Calton Hill. These people ARE our history!

      Thanks Rev, this brings back great memories of incredible expectation and hope.

      Feels a bit difererent now. Stronger. Tempered like steel. Ready for the long haul. Matured. Better informed than ever. Will NEVER take No for an answer.

      We are on our road to Independence. It is taking a tough route. And Scotland are going to take some unexpected folk along with us. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE, WE ARE ON OUR WAY!!!

      Independence is on it’s way and soon.

    35. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Something strange going on.

      When this post first appeared, the video was on Vimeo, not YouTube. I clicked on the video, entered the password – tiger – then clicked on the Vimeo logo to watch it at Vimeo.

      I then used ‘Video Downloadhelper’ to download the video to my machine, to watch it later. It has the soundtrack ok.

      The Vimeo version is at:-

    36. Cuilean says:

      other things to do today:

      go to indiegogo the People v Carmichael and donate generously.

      The Orkney 4 need to raise £75K by Christmas!

      If everyone who reads the Rev gave just one pound each, they’d reach this by ‘Antiques Roadshow’ time.

    37. Colin Church says:

      Looked at the video of the egging of Murphy here again episode 3 of original.
      He looks in direction of egg thrower, gives a thumbs up and then puts hand up to protect his face. I never noticed that before.

    38. grahamlive says:

      Even more than a year on, I still find it hard to watch the footage from the night of the result. Just brings back how gut wrenching that night was.

    39. heedtracker says:

      The UKOK rewards are there sure enough-


      Thanks again proudscotbuts.

    40. heedtracker says:

      Also weird from a state of UKOK weirdos, no mention of Lord Alistair’s BetterTogether triumph in his CV.

      Red tories and memories, like why were they allowed to open and record every postal vote they got, from day 1?

      Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer May 2010 – Oct 2010
      Chancellor of the Exchequer Jun 2007 – May 2010
      Secretary of State for Trade and Industry May 2006 – Jun 2007
      Secretary of State for Scotland Jun 2003 – May 2006
      Secretary of State for Transport May 2002 – May 2006
      Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Jun 2001 – May 2002
      Secretary of State for Social Security Jul 1998 – Jun 2001
      Chief Secretary to the Treasury May 1997 – Jul 1998
      Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury Jul 1996 – May 1997
      Shadow Spokesperson (Treasury) Apr 1992 – Jul 1996
      Shadow Spokesperson (Home Affairs) Jul 1988 – Apr 1992

    41. Paul says:

      Seems to be a pretty blatant attempt at censorship here…

      Under the fair use doctrine, it is not an infringement to use the copyrighted works of another in some circumstances, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, or educational use.

      I’d say the Altered State documentary satisfies all four of the above conditions!
      Pretty sure Rev Stu will be disputing this with Youtube as we speak. 😉

    42. manandboy says:

      Time to embrace the uncomfortable reality unfolding before our eyes

      A plea to Yes voters. Can we all please completely give up the totally outdated idea that the BBC is a public service broadcaster. And can we resist the urge to complain about how anti-Scotland, anti-SNP and anti-Independence the BBC is in its daily programming. It’s what they do!

      The BBC is the full time mouthpiece of the Westminster Government, which in turn is Unionist, colonial, imperial, neo-Liberal and Conservative – and vicious. This same Government is single minded about destroying the Independence movement in Scotland, beginning with the SNP, through a continuing campaign of lies, smears and fears, but also through a program of systematic economic degradation, all in the name of National Unity.

      Furthermore what we see happening in Scotland is consistent with what is happening in many countries where neo-Liberal governments are in power and where neo-Liberal thinking prevails among the influential classes in general.
      Those who aspire to run the global economy through banking, business and politics, are playing a giant game of chess in which Daesh is a pawn in the service of neo-Liberal global goals.

      If the neo-Liberals continue to have their way, then life as we have known it in the UK is about to become decidedly uncomfortable culminating in Government control through martial law and other ‘special powers’ accessible due to being in a state of war for several years (as Mr Hammond, the UK Defence Secretary has kindly informed us), all in the name of National Security.

      The projected timetable for the bombing of Syria is about four years, so we’re told. That is precisely the kind of time, during which, with the UK being technically, though illegally, in a state of war, it would be unthinkable for Westminster to even consider agreeing to a referendum for Scottish Independence – it would be so inappropriate my dear chap!

      One last thing. The Tories are not going to stop, now that political opposition in Parliament has been neutered. Ok is about to be consigned to history.

    43. Truth says:

      Beth, it’s tax avoidance, not tax evasion.

      Strictly speaking anyone putting money into an ISA, is avoiding tax.

      Let’s have a bit if perspective.

    44. Grouse Beater says:

      The documentary is yet another form of masochism drilled into Scots over centuries – impossible to watch without harbouring homicidal thoughts

    45. Grouse Beater says:

      Beth Watt: “Would we honestly ignore this if it were one of the Scottish Labour/LibDem/Tory MPs?

      Exactly who is ‘we’, Kamosabe?

    46. HandandShrimp says:

      There’s absolutely no news today’? Really? Are we all going to ignore the fact that an SNP MP has allegedly dodged paying tax? Would we honestly ignore this if it were one of the Scottish Labour/LibDem/Tory MPs?


      Tax evasion is a crime. Being employed by company that uses contracts that provide legal tax avoidance is not. There will always be schemes that encourage tax avoidance as policy to encourage savings or setting aside for pensions. Sometimes the schemes need tightened to narrow their scope. However, the first port of call to increase tax revenues is tax evasion or dodgers as you call them.

      There are currently at least 4 MPs under investigation for serious breaches relating to financial matters that occurred in the last parliament so no we are not jumping up and down about these things and neither are the press much it would seem. The much prefer to look desperately for absolutely anything they can to smear the SNP with.

    47. Nana says:


      You might want to watch this documentary first Published on 27 Mar 2011

      The shocking truth about the erosion of our fundamental civil liberties by Tony Blair’s government will be exposed this summer in TAKING LIBERTIES, released on DVD in the UK cinemas by Revolver

      Taking liberties

    48. Dan Watt says:

      Can’t view the video in Germany due to rights issues, probably relating to the soundtrack.


    49. McBoxheid says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      6 December, 2015 at 1:22 pm

      The Vimeo version is at:-

      Thanks Brian, that works, even in Germany

    50. Glamaig says:

      I’ve only just got round to watching the full set of films. Anybody who hasn’t seen them yet, its a MUST. Warning, your blood pressure may increase dramatically.

      However Bateman oddly contradicts himself by saying the media was hopelessly one-sided, then says ‘Its democracy guys, live with it’. Eh?

      In a democracy, this film would be broadcast on TV as a documentary in a prime slot – if you try and imagine that happening and realise how laughably improbable it is, you then realise the kind of regime we are now living in, and its getting worse by the day.

      Part 1

      Part 2

      Part 3

    51. galamcennalath says:

      I find Altered States pretty depressing!

      My analysis is that Yes came close, very close, but the Achilles Heel of DevoMax was used and it swung enough voters to stop Indy.

      The SNP were never meant to get an overall majority in Holyrood. The voting system was designed to make it very difficult. If they do get a majority twice in a row, 2011 & 2016 it is miraculous! Without a majority, there definitely won’t be another IndyRef. That, IMO, means we must have IndyRef2 before 2021. The risk if not doing so is enormous.

      Indy support is ~50:50. Has it moved, or is that just bounced back to where we were about the 5th Sept as it becomes obvious the promises were dodgy? Maybe as it becomes even more obvious that there will be no significant delivery on TheVow, Indy will move ahead a bit.

      There’s something which worries me. BetterTogether2 is up and running.

      Can anyone doubt that there is a massive anti-Indy pro-UKOK propaganda effort? It is everywhere in the CorpMedia, the BBC no longer hide their bias, and STV seems to be just as bad. And, slowly but surely, UKOK increases its online presence.

      Despite all this, the pro-Indy juggernaut seems to be sitting idling at the side of the road.

      My worry is that Indy ceases to be in the fore of a lot of people’s thoughts.

      We really need to step up several gears and challenge UKOK much more. We need to get the message out that Indy may not be the answer to everything but it certainly is the answer to a lot of problems! It needs to be kept ready and waiting.

    52. Al dossary says:

      If you have trouble watching them due to being outside of the UK, it is as simple as using a VPN to bypass the IP block. There are free versions out there, but they are widely available for as little as a few £’s or $’s per month.

      Ait’s for anyone wanting to use catch up TV in the UK or even for accessing sites that some regimes prefer to block. – eg Tinyurl links that people like to use.

      Looks like it will Wednesday’s entertainment for the 90 minute commute.

    53. Rock says:

      Angra Mainyu,

      “The cowardly self-serving middle-class careerists now have a foothold in the movement it would seem and Bateman speaks for them.”

      I would never trust Bateman – a BBC apologist.

      Neither would I trust “Lawyers for Yes” nor “Business for Scotland”.

      Nor McWhirter.

      Nor Craig Murray who counts Carmichael as a long term close friend. How could any independence supporter have Carmichael as a close friend during and after the referendum campaign?

      Nor Greens (or ex-Greens) trying to dupe SNP supporters into giving their list vote to them.

      Nor the shadowy publishers of newsnet scotland.

      And certainly not The National and The Sunday Herald.

      SNP+SNP is the only available choice for independence sooner rather than later.

    54. Truth says:

      Beth, I’d also like to add that at the moment I believe we all have a moral obligation to minimise the tax we pay.

      Every £1 you stop going to Westminster is £1 less they can spend on bombs and guns. They’re sure as hell not going to be spending it on welfare purposes.

    55. Jack Murphy says:

      Brian Doonthetoon said at 1:22 pm:-
      …………….. “It has the soundtrack ok…………….”

      Well worth a re-post by me:-


    56. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ BDTT

      Another of the German exiles thanks BrianDTT for the Vimeo info. 🙂

    57. lumilumi says:

      In view of all the BBC propaganda directed at Scotland…

      I wonder about our public broadcaster YLE here in Finland. Today is Independence Day, and YLE, of course, screened the 1955 film “Unknown Soldier”, based on Väinö Linna’s 1954 novel of the same name. It’s become a tradition in the past 10-15 years.

      Now, I love the book and the film, a story of a troop of ordinary soldiers from all over Finland, with widely varying backgrounds, during the Continuation War (1941-1944). It’s irreverent, poignant, funny, tragic, and critical of the snooty officers and, more subtly, of all powers that be. I think it’s the one book all Finnish kids are required to read in school because it’s one of the greatest pieces of Finnish literature. I still cry every time Hietanen dies, book or film.

      However, I feel “Unknown Soldier” and all its ambiguous patriotism has now been appropriated by the Finnish “establishment” and also right-wing zoomers as straight-forward, simple patriotism, or jingoism. Same with the remaining war veterans, without asking them.

      Right-wing zoomers attack immigration, especially now with the big influx of refugees, by invoking “Unknown Soldier” and war veterans and sickening Finland for Finns type slogans. But in a recent poll of the remaining war veterans, they were mostly in favour of giving refuge to people fleeing a war. Not gung-ho exclusive Finnish nationalists.

      I’m losing my thread here a bit, but I think I came here just to say that even our generally fairly OK public broadcaster YLE gets a bit… too patriotic? on Independence Day.

      It’s OK to be all blue and white today, but no need to go OTT. (Dilemmas for citizens of independent nations. I hope Scots will have to grapple with it before long.)

    58. Nana says:


      Good grief

      RAF butchers four Typhoon jets worth £500m for spare parts to keep warplanes flying

    59. Helen Yates says:

      Not getting any sound

    60. Capella says:

      @ BDTT I was able to hear it when it first went up too. But now the sound is gone. However, as others have posted, you can hear the three parts on youtube. Well worth a watch.

      Censorship? Maybe. Like the excellent 3 part film on the Bullingdon Club on youtube which now has the sound drowned out by ghastly music. Even the subtitles are scrambled. Don’t know how that was done. If the person who uploaded it wanted it removed then they could have deleted it.

    61. Dan Huil says:

      Does Channel4 still do “alternative Christmas message” instead of Liz the Last? Pity we can’t have videos like this transmitted in Scotland as an alternative to the usual bbc establishment crap.

    62. North chiel says:

      Spot on “manandboy” at 0223pm .Hope the ” material change in circumstances”
      ” comes along soon”.Perhaps ” a full scale war in the Middle East” might ” concentrate
      minds”? or will it be “too late” by then as ” Westminster, the BBC, the Tory press and
      the combined state sponsored media ” will be in full ” rule Britannia” mode , consequently
      any call for a referendum would be “interpreted as treason” by the “London establishment
      and the ” branch office ” at ” Pacific quay”

    63. Thepnr says:


      The SNP were never meant to get an overall majority in Holyrood. The voting system was designed to make it very difficult. If they do get a majority twice in a row, 2011 & 2016 it is miraculous! Without a majority, there definitely won’t be another IndyRef. That, IMO, means we must have IndyRef2 before 2021. The risk if not doing so is enormous.

      I tend to agree with you, the SNP should keep their options open for calling a Referendum during the lifetime of a Scottish Parliament providing they have the mandate to do so.

      This means including a proposal to have one in their manifesto for every Holyrood election. I don’t have this view, say just in case one year before an election is due, they look like not succeeding in winning a majority so panic into announcing another referendum before the end of their majority.

      No, I say it for the complete opposite reason, if during the lifetime of a parliament where the SNP do have a majority they must be able to announce another referendum if a “trigger” event happens and success looks more favorable.

      Thankfully Nicola Sturgeon appears to agree if this report in the Torygraph is correct.

      “Ms Sturgeon has prompted speculation about a quick second referendum by promising the SNP’s 2016 Holyrood election manifesto will contain details of potential “triggers” for another vote, such as the UK leaving the EU, and a timescale.”

      There is a video there of Nicola Sturgeon saying this on the website but it won’t work through

      I’m not so sure about including a list of “triggers”. Who could possibly foresee all potential triggers that may cause a leap in support for a referendum and for Independence. I’d definitely leave it open as to what a trigger may be.

    64. Marcia says:

      This version at Vimeo is better than the 3 part YouTube one and you can download it.

    65. scott says:

      Sorry O/T.Why do the BBC not report on what is going on in the Yemen.

    66. Angra Mainyu says:

      Rock, exactly, screw them all.

      And at the moment, like you, I’ll be voting and supporting SNP + SNP.

      But if no firm commitment to a second referendum is given by the SNP by say Easter, I’ll probably campaign and vote against them.

      It should be a given that the SNP’s top priority until we are independent is independence; and it should be on the first line of every manifesto forever.

      If the SNP don’t do that then I don’t see the point in them. We can get piss-boring politics elsewhere, why limit yourself to theirs?

    67. Capella says:

      @ lumilumi
      A few threads back I posted a quote from Chairman Mao, only partly ironically, where he addresses the question of patriotism v internationalism. He argued that you can, and must, be both.

      “in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism”

      YES supporters in Scotland were accused of “narrow nationalism”, as if wanting freedom from domination by another state meant you couldn’t identify with people of other nationalities. The Labour Party in particular argues that they are “internationalists”, which is clearly not true for the current MPs who voted to bomb Syria.

      So I think what you are saying is that patriotism can be hijacked by the right wing to promote fascism.

      But it is possible for us to reclaim our sense of freedom and self-confidence, or right to self determination, while still sharing the planet with other people and defending their right to do the same.

    68. Capella says:

      The Vimeo version is back!

    69. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      “I’m not so sure about including a list of “triggers”. Who could possibly foresee all potential triggers that may cause a leap in support for a referendum and for Independence. I’d definitely leave it open as to what a trigger may be.”

      Yes, anything could turn up. Nicola needs freedom to manoeuvre.

      EU could be a big one where quite clearly, constitutional changes are involved and they aren’t the changes Scots want.

      However, there is the alternative where it isn’t a biggy but a number of smaller things building up and causing an obvious shift in Indy support. In which case it wouldn’t be ONE trigger.

      I think the mix of Tory excess, Labour uselessness, Scottish disenfranchisement, DevoFA … will chip chip away at Union support. More and more people realising being better together was a myth.

    70. Thepnr says:

      @Angra Mainyu

      “Rock, exactly, screw them all.

      And at the moment, like you, I’ll be voting and supporting SNP + SNP.

      But if no firm commitment to a second referendum is given by the SNP by say Easter, I’ll probably campaign and vote against them.”

      The Independence movement can well do without fair-weather friends.

      They won’t be missed.

    71. Robert Kerr says:

      Batman NEVER criticised the BBC as being biased against Independence.

      At best an apologist. More likely an establishment plant.

      Or am I paranoid and does it matter?

    72. hopper69 says:

      Spot on Thepnr.
      Remember,westminster policy is divide and conquer.Fall into the trap at our peril.

    73. Dr Jim says:

      (If the SNP don’t do what I want I’ll spit the dummy stamp my foot and cry and vote for somebody else)

      Is this Independence seekers aged twelve conclusion of how things work, deary me, perhaps it hasn’t occurred to this particular group of upset Mibbees Voters but at the moment half the country don’t want Independence they’re quite happy to be governed, however badly by Westminster and would if they could see the end of the Scottish Parliament and all who sail in her

      Unless of course it’s run by people like Ruthless Davidson, Alex Johnson or even God forbid Kezia Dugdale and that crew right back in again to perform Westminsters bidding, only to be replaced at the next election with most of the MPs we just kicked out of Scotland

      So for those weally weally annoyed would be voters who think we’d be better off without the SNP take a wee glimpse at that future for a Nano second and just picture people like Douglas Alexander, Ian Davidson and so on to the return of the Labour Yoonionist Troughers, because that’s what you would be voting for, exactly what the other half of the country wants, and if they get back in again they’ll make damn sure Scotland never ever again has a chance in hell of ever having self determination

      Kids want all their sweeties now, adults generally know a little patience is sometimes needed or your teeth might fall out

    74. Dan Huil says:

      We must remember that the majority of people of Scotland are less radical in their hope for independence than the average WOS reader.

      Motivation not deviation.

      Vote SNP/SNP in May.

    75. ArtyHetty says:

      Re; Angry mainyu@5pm

      Is it boring to make it a priority to actually work for the better of your country and the people in it?
      Not everyone on here is pro SNP, and fairynuff, but to dismiss them out of hand, when they may not do all you want when you want, while doing much to keep Scotland afloat(!) against the odds, seems a tad counter, to appearing to be an SNP supporter or member. The unionists are dying to see people divided and calling for Indy ref tomorrow. Boo you useless SNP government, how dare you, where are the tomatoes to chuck! SNP Baaaadddd stuff, again.

      Unionist politicians are the ones you should be campaigning againsit for their corruption, immorality and complete disregard for the will of the people of Scotland.

      I think you and who’s army could fit into a telephone box. An attempt to mentally create division and polarise the politically aware in Scotland, ain’t gonna get you anywhere mate. It’s just so, yesterday!

    76. Capella says:

      Good news for the People Versus Carmichael fundraiser, it’s up to £150,438.
      Still, the target is £208,000 so still some way to go.

    77. GusI says:

      It’s not unusual for a squadron to have three or four planes on long term maintenance/servicing. If a plane on the ground has a good part required for flying and another plane has a defective part then taking the good part to keep the plane flying is only logical. Why have two planes grounded when you only need to have one? This has been standard practice in the RAF for years and is probably so in every air force in the world.

    78. ArtyHetty says:

      Re:angry mainyu@1.13pm

      Completely off the mark please do not take my crit of D Bateman as anything like yours. I don’t know why he said what he did, but generally he can also express some very pertinent, intelligent viewpoints regarding Scottish Independence.

      And no, there are not the ‘likely splits and fractures’ in the pro independence movement of which you mention. Keen again to create the myth of division.

      Still going strong, with some very good discussions taking place it will take more than a few moles to put a spanner in the works. Let’s hope the unionists don’t get too desperate should the SNP include Indyref2 in their manifesto, they are cracking up about it already.

    79. galamcennalath says:

      “This means including a proposal to have one in their manifesto for every Holyrood election. I don’t have this view, say just in case one year before an election is due, they look like not succeeding in winning a majority so panic into announcing another referendum before the end of their majority.”

      The significance of what you said has now full sunk in. Yes, that would not be a good scenario – going for IndyRef2 in say 2020 just because the SNP are slipping behind and look like losing a majority it 2021.

      Probably, if the SNP are slipping, then so would Indy support. A truly nightmare scenario. But, a lot of unforeseen events can happen.

      Shows we need to keep up Indy support and work to convert soft NOs. But also, we rely on the SNP remaining popular whether we like it or not.

      I tend to detach Indy from the SNP in my mind as much as I can. I’m starting to think the two are inseparable.

      Vote SNP+SNP as people keep saying! And, keep doing it!

    80. heedtracker says:

      The underlying problem is Scotland cannot be allowed to succeed as a PR democracy. Otherwise England will want one too, especially The North.

      Which is why toryboy world is kicking the green crap into to touch, like carbon capture at Peterhead, renewable subsidy gone. Look at HMRC Cumbernauld or every other investment they’ve said vote blue tory for, then reneged on.

      This lot will tell us Scotland is a shit hole under SNP Holyrood, our imperial masters will do whatever it takes to make it so

    81. Capella says:

      BBC continues its war on Jeremy Corbyn and anti-war campaign “Stop the War”. The Andrew Marr show has Tristram Hunt demanding that Corbyn disowns that “really disreputable organisation” and not attend its fundraiser.

      It would be OK if he was attending dinners by warmongering arms companies I expect.

    82. hopper69 says:

      SNP have to be the focus for indy,no ifs or buts.All other help greatly accepted.

      Lets leave all divisions and side tracks until after indy.We can all go our own way once the main prize is achieved.


    83. Skooshcase says:

      Have already donated something extra to the People Versus Carmichael fundraiser. But this £75,000 extra that is needed, does anyone here know why it is needed and why the sum is so high? I’m unsure myself, so if anyone could enlighten me/us that would be great! Thanks in advance!

    84. Stuart says:


      So there is ‘No news’ in Scotland…

      I see the Nationalists have succeeded in their campaign for separation, starting with Fife and the Lothian’s!

      The Forth Bridge fiasco, for which the SNP are solely responsible….

      Q Who had oversight for the maintenance of the Forth Road Bridge since 2007?

      A Alex Neill, and then Nicola Sturgeon!

      Who cut the budget for maintenance by 65%?

      See above!

      As if this were not enough, a third SNP MP has been having a bit of financial bother….

      Stand up Phil Boswell, SNP MP for Coatbridge.

      Who campaigned against tax loopholes, and was then found benefitting from a tax avoidance scheme!


      However it gets better, guess who thinks tax avoidance schemes are ‘Obscene’?


      Are the 54 soon to be 53?

      But hey Wangers, there is no news in Scotland today….

      At least according to the Rev there isn’t…

    85. heedtracker says:

      So you cant get over the Forth by car now, usual UKOK red/blue tory unionist freak show says it Alex Salmond to blame. In England, you cant move for railways and motorways all over the shop but and so, from unionist cringers and zealots doing what they do best

      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 5h5 hours ago Edinburgh, Scotland
      Scott Arthur Retweeted D MacGille-Mhuire
      A bit of tartan paint and the old bridge will be fine. #Forthroadbridge

      back to England

      November 24, 2015 5:11 pm
      46 HS2 staff earn more than the prime minister’s £150,000 salary

    86. Thepnr says:


      My point exactly, if SNP support is dropping then most likely too is support for Independence. You would not call for a referendum in that situation, it would be the death of a chance for a Yes vote.

      No, you would though have the oppertunity to keep your powder dry for the next time.

      There will always be a next time while we have had only one referendum.

    87. heedtracker says:

      But hey Wangers, there is no news in Scotland today….

      At least according to the Rev there isn’t…

      Well at the very least, unionist cringers like you Stuart must be extremely relieved, nae delighted SNP took the decision to build a second Forth Road Bridge?

      Probably not.

      Its red/blue toryboy world or nothing but if the red tories were still in charge of Scotland, we’d all be well fcuked.

    88. Onwards says:

      I will trust Nicola on the timing of a second referendum.
      This is a time for thinking strategically.

      Number one priority is an SNP majority next year.
      If that involves putting independence on the back burner for a few months, then so be it.

      There are plenty of No voters who lean towards voting SNP as the best devolved government at Holyrood, even if they won’t vote for full independence at this point.
      If we have to pander towards them for a few months, then that’s fine by me. Their votes count just as much.

      Once the SNP get a majority, then the timing moves to the forefront.
      But no SNP majority , no second referendum.

      It’s easy to be impatient, but on the positive side the long term trend is towards independence.
      It is the aspirational vote that wants to upgrade Scotland beyond a region, politically speaking.
      Most people naturally want to aim higher, and ultimately Scotland is a collection of people who want the best for the place we live in.

    89. Dr Jim says:

      The only thing that got us a Scottish Parliament was fear of the rise of the SNP not grand gestures by any Yoonionist Politician and especially NOT Labour, even though they like to do all the posturing about it

      With apologies to breasts everywhere people like Stuart are just TITS who want things back the way they were before folk wised up, Scotland will be Independent, we know it and they know and it, and it drives them mad because it’s inevitable and no matter what they say or do they can’t stop us, it’s only a matter of time IMO sooner than they think

      Right now we are slightly more than half the population and rising bit by bit, every day more folk join the SNP even the English branch is growing

      So the Yoons can Smear, MisReport, Print lies in their Rags
      make up anything they want, THEY’RE LOSING and they know it with each desperate day that passes they shout the same crap louder and every time they do, like a little Angel hearing a bell somebody else joins the SNP

      It’s a wonderful life

    90. Bill says:

      just managed to watch this the whole way through …started off with a tear in my eye… then slowly my chest expanded … to end with that will be f
      *****g right no turning back now
      nb Stuart your a wanker fuck off and troll somewhere else

    91. Bob Mack says:

      My boiler broke down .Damn the SNP for that.
      I am a tax avoider.I have an ISA account which I am told is still legal. Like Mr Boswell’s is still legal. Damn the SNP for that.

      Piece of advice if you want to be taken seriously mate. Never post anything written or posted by Dr Scott Arthur. He is rabid with envy. Then again you might be too.

      By any chance are you Scott Arthur? Your style is very similar.

    92. heedtracker says:

      This is fun. Neo fascism in Scotland always looks dafter than in England. No OO idea why.

      And this one says Scots law is all SNP now. If you ever ask a Scots lawyer, chances are extremely high he/she will self combust with UKOK rage but

      euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 4h4 hours ago
      a last shout for my @scotonsunday column on the law society of scotland, a watchdog with a shattered reputation:

    93. lumilumi says:

      Watched the vid now. Excellent work in documenting the ref.

      What struck me most was the idea that the indyref has inspired such a flurry of creative efforts. It might be all interwebby now, but the idea is the same. My country’s independence struggle inspired this

      and most of the art of the “Golden Age” of my country’s art. Here’s artist Akseli Gallen-Kallela (far left) getting hammered with his FinnNat buddies. Janne Sibelius on far right. (You can just see him envisioning those horns of doom.)

    94. caledonia says:

      I feel sorry for the likes of Stuart on here
      I mean what sort of scot would not like to run their own country

      Maybe he just likes being a doormat as he is so used with it
      Its a bit like getting someone else to run your house

    95. Capella says:

      Don’t bomb Syria signatures now 98,657. If you haven’t already signed here’s the link:

    96. Dan Watt says:

      That was a brillaint, harrowing watch. Very painful to relive it all.

    97. James Sneddon says:

      Great video, what is the opening track?, totally toe tapping!

    98. Stuart says:

      I see someone has put the Forth Road Bridge up for sale on Ebay, in the ‘parts needed, broken section’…..

      Whilst you may not be able to drive across it, it does come working Gaelic Road signs!

      Well done the SNP!

    99. Capella says:

      @ lumilumi
      Sibelius looks pretty fierce. But that is a beautiful piece of music and the choir and setting are good too. You have something to celebrate on the 8th. Happy Independence Day.

    100. ArtyHetty says:


      I saw someone earlier mentioned the Forth bridge and thought, wow, it doesn’t take much imagination to think on how the unionists must be so mad. If the new bridge had not been being built by the SNP Scotgov, they could have had a field day (!) for years and years about how terrible it was and they would have called for the downfall of the SNP.

      Oh my, the unionists must be kicking themselves! Fair cheered me up thinking that. La li La.

    101. Capella says:

      @ lumilumi
      Oops – sorry 6th – today

    102. Callum says:

      someone put Bateman on suicide watch.

      I disagree with him. A week is a long time in politics and I’m expecting the Tory party to rip it’s own heart out during the #EURef leaving 56-odd SNP MP’s with a chance of a power balance in the wake. Every time the Conservative party is faced with an EU problem; all sorts of chaos ensues.

    103. peter says:

      @Stuart, when I read your posts the words 40 watt bulb and power cut come to mind

    104. Thepnr says:

      Just laugh at the pathetic attempts of smearing the SNP.

      Just laugh at the pathetic attempts of the media.

      Just laugh at the pathetic attempts of the Tories to govern.

      Just laugh at the pathetic attempts of Jim Murphy.

      Just laugh at the pathetic attempts of Kezia Dugdale.

      Just laugh at the pathetic attempts of Jackie Baillie.

      Just laugh at the pathetic attempts of Ruth Davidson.

      Just laugh at the pathetic attempts of Willie Rennie.

      Just laugh at the pathetic attempts of the trolls on here.


    105. Angra Mainyu says:

      thepnr: “The Independence movement can well do without fair-weather friends.”

      Yes, but the independence movement can’t well do without independence, can it?

    106. Another Union Dividend says:

      On the Forth Road Bridge Closure

      Someone should tell Dr Scott Arthur and the Red Tories that
      that The Forth Estuary Transport Authority (FETA) is the authority responsible for the maintenance of the bridge but has not met since April.

      This Anglicised body, we have a Firths not estuaries in Scotland, is dominated by Labour councillors from:

      The City of Edinburgh Council Councillor Hinds (Convener) Councillor Keil Councillor Paterson Councillor Work

      Fife Council Councillor Callaghan Councillor Chisholm Councillor Martin (Vice-Convener) Councillor Young

      Perth and Kinross Council Councillor Giacopazzi
      West Lothian Council Councillor Conn

    107. Lenny hartley says:

      Read somewhere that transport scotland took over the maintenance of the forth road bridge from
      Feta several months ago.

    108. Bob Mack says:

      @Lenny Hartley,

      AMEY took on the maintenance role for Transport Scotland

    109. heedtracker says:

      Stuart says:
      6 December, 2015 at 8:48 pm
      I see someone has put the Forth Road Bridge up for sale on Ebay, in the ‘parts needed, broken section’….

      Pretty lame Doc. And you’re nowhere near Scotch Cringer of the week Kenny here. At least in Scotland we do produce the world’s most awful cringers ever seen, in the world.

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq Dec 4
      Kenny Farquharson Retweeted Kenny Farquharson
      “The SNP has demonstrated to the world that we Scots cannot be relied upon in an international crisis.”

    110. Free Scotland says:

      For anyone who thinks of the UK as a just and fair democracy, for anyone who believes red-tory or blue-tory propaganda about “no civilian casualties,” take some time out of your comfortable and cosy getting-ready-for-christmas routine and watch this; and as you watch it, think of people like Hilary Benn, David Cameron, Boris Johnson et al.

    111. Roughian says:


      Happy Independence day.

      Is that some koskenkorva Sibelius is drinking? I still have a little left in the freezer. Might just have a small one to toast your fine country.


    112. scotspine says:

      @ Caledonia

      Don’t waste your time feeling sorry for Stuart. Seems he is more than happy being a gimp for the Yoon Establishment.

    113. jdman says:

      What the hell is wrong with this country,
      What part of THEY DONT LIKE US do we not get?

    114. G says:

      RE People vs Carmichael

      £208k required, that really is a huge amount of money, and far greater than the £60k that was initially estimated.

      Would Carmichael be looking at a comparable sum? Even on an MP’s salary, it starts to look like he would be working for nothing for 5 years by choosing to contest this. Last time I checked, his fundraiser was at £7k so either someone in the establishment is meeting his expenses or he will be close to ruined. The alternative, which is almost too horrible to contemplate, is that we are currently being asked to pay the lying, parasitical warmonger’s expenses.

      If that’s the case, I see trouble, and not for the petitioners. I have contributed again, and we won’t leave them out of pocket. But I’ll be very interested to see the breakdown of costs.

    115. Thepnr says:

      @Angra Mainyu

      It could do without the likes of you.

      I’m certain the Independence movement will manage fine without your “contribution”.

      Your not my friend, fair-weather or not.

    116. bugsbunny says:

      I remember, many moons ago, someone asking Winnie Ewing the question, “Can you be a (Scottish) Patriot, and still be against (Scottish) Independence? She said, no, and was roundly turned on.

      It is as true today, as it was then. And that is directed at ProudScotsBut brigade.


    117. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Lumilumi.

      Happy Independence Day!

      Typing about Sibelius…
      Rik Mayall created a character, Kevin Turvey, for the Scottish produced BBC comedy series, “A Kick Up The 80s”.

      Kevin Turvey’s signature tune was the Alle Marcia from the Karelia Suite.

    118. Sunniva says:

      Somebody said to me today that the cracks appearing in the old Forth Road Bridge ‘allowed them’ (the SNP government) to justify the expense of building the new…. as if building the new bridge had been some kind of extravagant plan, now fortuitously rescued and justified by necessity.

    119. alexicon says:

      To people like stuart the latest floods in the north of England are an act of God and the floods in the Scottish borders are an irresponsible act of the Scottish Government.

      Seems that the German’s have their problems too.
      No calls for Angela to step down is there.

    120. caz-m says:

      Watching the press preview on Sky News and they went round every village in Cumbria telling us how devastating Hurricane Desmond has been.

      Thank god the storm missed Scotland.

      We were lucky there, eh!

    121. Grouse Beater says:

      Some phony called Stuart: “The Forth Bridge fiasco, for which the SNP are solely responsible…”.

      I have assessed your homework.

      From the crapology you’ve posted it’s clear you are hoping to graduate as a First Class Bellend, but alas for you, the only degree in that category is Limp Dick (Failed).

      Nothing you’ve posted has the remotest link with truth or reality. On the level of attaining basic intelligence you fail miserably. And on concocting black propaganda you did not even reach the level of a fail. That’s one less tin of beans for you at the food bank.

      Mark: Comprehensively Failed.

    122. Thepnr says:


      That “somebody” is unfortunately totally ignorant or just believes all the propaganda he or she hears. Whether that is directly from the media or media loving friends, he/she really knows no better.

      There is no other way to say it, the majority of the electorate are ignorant.Westminster continue to rule by deliberately keeping them as ignorant as possible.

      They know that when the wool is pulled from an individuals eyes and he or has seen that the Emperor has no clothes. All is lost, for them.

    123. Grouse Beater says:

      One last fling:

    124. Grouse Beater says:

      And for your amusement and Xmas party turns:

    125. Disney could not make it up!

      In July two of our all singing all dancing BAE `Brimstone` missiles fell of one of our war planes while returning from bombing the desert,

      luckily no one was hurt as they did not explode or they could have destroyed most of Cyprus military airport.

    126. caz-m says:

      Red Tories inside the Labour Party telling Corbyn to miss a “Stop the War” meeting this week. He has told them he will attend.

      I’m surprised Corbyn got an invite in the first place. If he had whipped his Party, there might not have been a vote to bomb Syria.

      His weak leadership led to the Red Tories within his Party giving Cameron the green light.

    127. Sunniva says:

      @ThePNR, well I told ‘that somebody’ all that. That discussion of replacing the bridge began in the 1990s during Major’s government, after the bridge had exceeded its expected capacity, but that Major’s government had not wanted to spend money on infrastructure, especially in Scotland… that it wasn’t an SNP policy as such, just something that had long needed doing, and finally it was the SNP that did something about it. Same with Police Scotland. That the merger idea had not been the SNP’s but had been a policy proposal put forward by the Conservatives as well as Labour. We can but try to educate the ignorant.

    128. Dr Jim says:

      The Yoons are getting even more Screechy soon only dogs will be able to hear them
      Every day in every way they cook up more tripe and still nobody’s listening

      Congratulations once again to Mhairi Black on yet another honour heaped upon “Britains” and of course Scotlands youngest MP ever in the history of MPism

      Bet that gets up the snoots of the Yoons as well

      Luvvin it !!

    129. Thepnr says:


      Well glad to hear it and good for you, if we all keep doing the same then the game will be over. 🙂

      Removing the wool from the eyes of the ignorant is the end game.

    130. Bob Mack says:

      Don’t see anybody kicking Westminster for several bridges damaged in England. Why not?

    131. Grouse Beater says:


      Bridge of Spies excellent Spielberg, (review soon) but am really looking forward to The Revenant!

    132. dakk says:


      ‘What part of they don’t like us do we not get’

      OhI think we all get it alright.

      It’s just that some of us like to pretend they are them.

    133. Andrew McLean says:

      Hi Stuart
      I did worn you previously that to troll on here requires more intelegence than you have shown so far!

      I am assuming you are quite young, so I will be kind and suggest you ask an adult to review your contribution before you post.

      I feel you’re embarrassed about something perhaps another hobby rather than politics would suit you better?

    134. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Scot finlayson, hardly, the Brimstones dont have a particularly large warhead. Around 50kg total missile weight. Once you strip out rocket fuel, engine, casing and control you might at a push have 20kg explosive. Whilst you wouldnt want to be near it, its barely going to dent a runway, let alone destroy an airfield, Akrotiri btw.

    135. Andrew McLean says:


    136. heedtracker says:

      Where will they dump their nuke waste? Scotland region! Cringers will love it, its another BetterTogether pooling and shring dividend, oh please dump your nuke waste in our region, grovel UKOK cringers.

      Australia got its reprocessed plutonium back from France but its freaking them out.

      I can see a lot of wind turbines from my dog walking routes around Aberdeen and they never stop going round, and no one gets radiation poisoning.

      Good night all proudScotbuts.

    137. Grouse Beater says:

      My feature for the new people’s magazine ‘Homeless and Gardenless‘: Going Naked Into the Future

      Just got my clothes out of storage after two years … almost nothing fits. (Weep, sob) Off to the charity shop with them in the morning.

    138. Edward says:

      Apparently according to Sky/BBC/ITV Storm Desmond hit Cumbria devastating much of Cumbria including the Lake District and Carlisle
      There was also ‘some’ flooding in Scotland, lucky it didn’t get hit so much as England did (which is the impression that everyone is left with

      Perhaps the People of Hawick have been lucky that is if they were able to see the news!

      All these pictures and video clips from across Scotland that Ive seen on Facebook were just a figment of everyones imagination

    139. Sunniva says:

      The English are weird. Not only are the government not being blamed for the collapse of roads, flood defences and bridges, but they are starting to say, well, why should everybody else (ie, not the government) pay for this?,

    140. Angra Mainyu says:

      Thepnr, you seem to be taking things awfully personally. I’m not here to upset you any more than you already are, so by all means ignore me. What I will say is that I enjoy reading your posts, they make me laugh, and this latest one where you declare I’m not your friend is no exception.

      —————————————————- (this line isn’t accidental)

      I don’t really understand the unquestioning loyalty some people in here exhibit towards the SNP which to my mind is merely a political vehicle — either it will take us where we want to go or it won’t. If it looks like it won’t then people will inevitably get off the bus.

      The SNP is a political party like no other. To some people it’s left of centre, to some right, to some it’s nationalist and to others internationalist and cosmopolitan. Nobody is entirely satisfied with it in the sense that it isn’t entirely any of those things. That’s all fine. We can call it a broad church.

      However, the one thing that draws us all to that broad church and allows socialists to sit quite comfortably next to conservatives who prioritise business, the one unifying concept that brings us all under one banner, is the belief in independence and the belief that the SNP will try get us there.

      If the SNP stops driving towards independence, it doesn’t make much sense for us all to sit there listening to the sermon. Above I said, and I stand by it, if the SNP don’t put independence on the 2016 manifesto by say Easter, I won’t be supporting them. Why should I?

      I went on to say I could get piss-boring politics anywhere which is exactly what is on offer from the SNP without a visible and meaningful commitment to independence.

      I understand the logic of waiting. Please don’t assume I’m some impatient political animal. What those who advocate waiting need to understand though is that the independence movement without a commitment to independence means absolutely nothing; the movement dies, people drop off, and it’s piss-boring politics as usual.

      Now I’m not criticising the SNP record on things like education and the NHS; I think they have done alright. I wouldn’t say they have done anything radical or much different in these areas as compared to what Labour and the Lib-Dems done when they were in charge, but they haven’t screwed up, that’s for sure.

      The idea that we should be ashamed or too embarrassed to admit we want another referendum, which seems to be where we are right now, is nonsensical folly to me. This is the knot you end up in when you listen to newspaper columnists and spin. The same thing happened with Labour and it got so that they were ashamed to admit they aspired to help the poor etc. — they’re still in that rut.

      I can see why Sturgeon might not want to be seen to contradict her “once in a generation” position but that’s her problem. If that (her difficulty and personal position) is the reason the SNP are not so keen on putting independence on the manifesto, well then the solution is obvious: she should step down.

      Now I’m sure a few of you will want to shoot the messenger here as usual. But believe me, the waiting game isn’t going to work — the movement will wither needlessly on the vine if you go down that road. The position we are in right now in terms of engagement and enthusiasm really is once in a generation; squander it by playing the waiting game and help mend you.

    141. dakk says:

      Happy Independence Day to Finland and lumi lumi.

      Finland was fortunate it had only Russia as an imperial overlord.

      We had/have the the biggest and most successful paracites of all to contend with.

      But we’re getting there 🙂

    142. caz-m says:

      Sunniva 11.26pm

      Stories are doing the rounds today that the Tories want to charge immigrants for hospital check-ups.

      I remember rumours were doing the rounds about ten years ago, when the Tories were in opposition, that they wanted to bring in charging a fee every time you saw your GP.

    143. boris says:

      People vs Carmichael. Noting the increase in projected costs I am unclear about the impact of a fallout upon the loser. Will they be asked to meet the costs of the case?

    144. heedtracker says:

      The position we are in right now in terms of engagement and enthusiasm really is once in a generation; squander it by playing the waiting game and help mend you.

      Its only been 14 months from the last referendum! Not 14 years. Its not even 2 decades since Holyrood was “given” to Scotland by our freaky deaky imperial masters.

      A more rational take, we went for independence too soon. The hard fact of teamGB life was and is, when they have to, the whole red and blue toryboy UKOK BBC/press attack machine will only destroy a second referendum Project Fear style all over again.

      We just lost the last referendum but look at UKOK unionism in Scotland now.

      A chancer from Slovenia, says Scotland’s a one party state so vote blue not red tory, is how desperate they are.

      Adam Tomkins Retweeted
      Matt Kilcoyne ?@MRJKilcoyne 5h5 hours ago Poplar, London
      Matt Kilcoyne Retweeted Adam Tomkins
      The dangers of a one party state is clear in Scotland. Time for those seeking opposition to back @ScotTories in May.

    145. Grouse Beater says:

      Been trying to place Corbyn; finally got him identified: Sergei the Meerkat.

    146. hopper69 says:

      Nice speech Angra.But i,ve trusted the SNP since ’74 and i’m fully prepared to back that winning combo a lot longer.

      You do what you feel you have to but dividing the opposition to Westminster does not make sense to me.

    147. @Alan Mackintosh

      Missiles should not be falling of RAF planes,whether BAE Brimstone`s or bombs with nuclear warheads.

    148. Dan Huil says:

      @ Dr Jim 7:50pm

      Excellent summation. The louder BritNats scream their smears and lies the more confident I am that Scotland will soon regain its independence. BritNat politicians, being what they are, cannot help but expose their own arrogance and ignorance towards Scotland. The internet has been extremely important in fighting these BritNats and their lying cronies in the BritNat media. Traditional BritNat newspapers are doomed; another reason for their hysteria.

      The movement towards independence continues, naturally, with different people going at different speeds. Nothing to worry about there.

      Vote SNP/SNP in May.

    149. heedtracker says:

      Grouse Beater, you’re in better mood:D

      You know they paid £10 million for their first Sergei toy give away? Red and Blue tories should do that with Ruth and Kez, hand puppets, Compare the

    150. Grouse Beater says:

      you’re in better mood

      Kinda. 🙂

      Got another two hours work ahead of me … then an early rise. Every company seems to be handing out trade mascots as toys. And every second TV commercial has people dancing with happiness at spending their wages on trash.

      The tag line meaning give us your money is always the same:

      “It’s a simple as that.”

    151. dakk says:


      ‘Sergei the meerkat’

      Nailed it.

      Some might say all these commies look alike 🙂

    152. Ronnie says:

      @Dan Huil

      ‘The movement towards independence continues, naturally, with different people going at different speeds. Nothing to worry about there.’


    153. Cherry says:

      peter says:
      6 December, 2015 at 9:21 pm
      @Stuart, when I read your posts the words dim 20 watt bulb and power cut come to mind.

      Fixed that for you…you’re welcome 😉

    154. Paula Rose says:

      Bit forces of darkness tonight Dolls xx

    155. bugsbunny says:


      Do you think Ruthie would anyone to put anything up her, especially their hand?



    156. Cherry says:


      😉 maybe they need to look into the light coming from this site.

    157. manandboy says:

      The Referendum – some 2 million people just have to learn the hard way. All things being equal, which, with Westminster, they never are. We’ll just have to wait, I guess.

      Except for the Loyalists and 70% of English immigrants .

      And remember, neo-Liberals prefer to dispense with democracy, just like Dave does. It’s a safer bet.

    158. mr thms says:

      People should bear in mind that should the SNP not have a referendum on independence in its new manifesto that it is still important to still vote for them twice, to ensure they win a majority of the seats. The Unionist parties are working towards a UK Bill of Rights which will require Holyrood to give their consent to Westminster to repeal the Human Rights Act. The SNP will not do it. One of the proposals I have read for inclusion in a UK Bill of Rights, is to grant a referendum on independence every 15 years.

      “Urgent action needed to preserve United Kingdom, thinktank says”

      But, should Holyrood grant consent, the UK Bill of Fights could just as easily omit the right to a referendum.

    159. jdman says:

      mr thms
      “But, should Holyrood grant consent, the UK Bill of Fights could just as easily omit the right to a referendum.”

      That wasn’t a typo was it?

    160. Capella says:

      @ mr thms here’s an archived version of that article from 20th May. Another Prof Tomkins cunning plan.

    161. mr thms says:


      Lol.. It is a typo.. A very apt one!


      I don’t think it is a coincidence that he is a Conservative list candidate.

      I can see their being the possibility of an SNP minority government but on this particular issue they would lose the vote. Suppose Westminster gets its own way, is it feasible for the responsibility of Scotland’s public services and utilities to revert to Westminster control, and integrated into the rUK system or privatised?

    162. WP says:

      Knew it wouldn’t be long in coming. That imbecile Brian Monteith in the NonScotsman blaming the SNP for the problems with the bridge. Eh? What’s that thing next to it rising out the water? You know, the thing we didn’t really need.

    163. Ken500 says:

      Germany is accusing Saudi of funding terrorism and not taking in any refugees.

      Boris wants talks with Syria and Isis. Genuine or a wind up for Cameron/Osbourne, who six months after an election are extremely unpopular. Add in the weather results. Flood, fire and famine. The elements are against them.

      Flood the water in the North. Fire – illegal air strikes. Famine – sanctioning the vulnerable and starving them to death.

      Never has Westminster Unionist members been so out of touch.

    164. Dorothy Devine says:

      Anyone remember this ,

    165. Macart says:

      Just to avoid any confusion, there won’t be a commitment to hold a referendum in next year’s manifesto IMO, but there may well be an open ended commitment to hold a referendum at the demand of the public under certain conditions. The well documented ‘triggers’ phrase.

      Only two things will make indyref2 happen: either a steady cumulative car crash of state relations with Westminster government, with harmful governance wedded to disastrous policy over a period of time yet to be determined. Or a massive breakdown of the letter and spirit of the current settlement forcing Scotland down an ideological, legal or political path against its will eg. Bill of British Right, Brexit etc.

      Any indyref is in the hands of the population and all the population require is a sitting government in Holyrood willing to act on their popular will.


    166. mealer says:

      Angra Mainyu 11.30pm,
      We lost indyref 1 because we weren’t strong enough to beat the entire British state.We didn’t have enough activists to get EVERYONE registered and EVERYONE down to the polling stations.We still aren’t strong enough.We still don’t have enough activists.This was highlighted by the pathetically low turnout in the election last May in those areas where our support should be strongest.Those areas where independence will have the most positive effect on folks lives.

      I don’t want to fight another referendum until we have enough foot soldiers to thoroughly canvass every house in Scotland and make sure that every soul who says they support independence actually votes for it.Facebook likes are all well and good,but it’s votes that will get us independence.We must get the votes to deliver an SNP majority next May.Thats the next step on the way.We can’t do anything without that majority.

    167. Robert Kerr says:


      Oh, you are awful…. but I like it !


    168. Ken500 says:

      The Unionists and the Greens, along why their Landowning paymasters, stopped road building and infrastructure in Scotland for years. Scottish money was even sent back to the Westminster Treasury. £Billions + Scotland was underfunded. Westminster secrecy and lies. Betrayed Scotland in every way possible. Everyone knows it, including the Unionists liars.

    169. Hugh Barclay says:

      Great vid Stu, the kinda thing we don’t see on tv, well worth a watch.

      Since this is a vid post I’ll put this wee 5 min vid up one last time, My Labour? Enjoy.

    170. Angra Mainyu says:

      Mealer, like it or not, there are some of us who think the referendum was more or less rigged.

      People have short memories. Don’t any of you remember the intensity of lies, threats, false promises, and black propaganda in the last two weeks of the indyRef campaign?

      I’m not a great fan of American politics but if there’s one thing they do better than us it’s freedom of expression. I urge you, ask a half sensible American what he thinks of a state controlled and dominated media — the BBC doesn’t just play a part here, it dominates.

      One of the biggest errors the SNP and others have ever made was accepting the result as being fair. It just wasn’t. I don’t think we will ever know why they did that. I’ve heard plenty of arguments but none of them are convincing.

    171. Ken500 says:

      SNP had an unprecedented landslide in May. They are protecting Scotland from illegal wars, ‘bedroom tax’ mitigating Westminster cuts, have stopped the tax credits cut. Increased fishing quotas, unemployment down. Building essential infrastructure projects. Uni student loans are up and the fees for students are down. More apprenticeships, nursery places. Prescriptions, and bus passes and social care for the elderly. Increased funding for the NHS.

      Westminster has lost thousand of Oil sector jobs in Scotland because of the illegal high tax losing Scotland £Billions of revenues. Oil & Gas has to be imported, putting up the balance of payments deficit and the debt. Westminster cuts are affecting public sector jobs in Scotland.

      Support for Independence is Increasing. Next is Holyrood, then the Councils elections. Get every Unionist politician out in Scotland. 2016/17 SNP/SNP.

      Cameron/Osbourne and the Unionists politicians are trying to ruin the Scottish economy. Do not let them. SNP/SNP. Stand up for Scotland. Not Westminster secrecy and lies.

    172. Another Union Dividend says:

      As pointed out in a letter to The National on Saturday, proposals for an additional road crossing at Queensferry were drawn up in the early 1990s, as part of the “Setting Forth” consultation document prepared by the Scottish Office. The plans met stiff opposition from environmentalists and from the Labour dominated City of Edinburgh Council on the grounds of the increased traffic. Following the Labour victory in the 1997 general election the proposals were shelved.

      The SNP doesn’t need any lectures from Unionists about transport as the Scottish government is now playing catch up with decades of Westminster under investment in Scotland’s transport infrastructure.

    173. caz-m says:

      Tokyo Kaye taking calls on BBC Scotland this morning, regarding the Forth Road Bridge closure.

      She is concerned about the poor traveller and the difficulties they will endure trying to get from one side of the Forth to the other.

      My f**kin arse.

      This will be nothing more than an another attempt to smear the SNP government.

    174. Nana says:

      O/T links

      I’m currently living in Paris, the city where less than one month ago, some fanatics killed people because they were listening to music, watching a football match, or simply enjoy beers in a bar. I was living in the neighbourhood of where those tragic event happened. Now I’m scared.

      ‘Open their eyes’: France’s insurgent right-wing is poised for its biggest victory yet

      Chilling Video Shows NATO Member State Greeting and Providing Refuge to ISIS

    175. Ken500 says:

      Independence just needs a 5% swing and demographics are favourable. Stop the post mortium. It is counter productive. The corpse is twitching. Stop havering. Go to it.

    176. Famous15 says:

      Call Kaye broadcasting message from “listener” that there should be a public enquiry because the Scottish Government stopped maintaining the bridge!

      Wow zoomers out in strength!

    177. Sinky says:

      Up until May this year, the Labour councillor dominated Forth Estuary Transport Authority (FETA) was the authority responsible for the maintenance of the Forth road bridge

    178. heedtracker says:

      Monday morning “Scotland’s a shit hole” offerings from you know who. These git’s photo’s choice is fun, rancid Graun’s “children” with receding hairlines. Scottish children ain’t what they used to be.

      “Everyone in Scotland agrees that the current relationship between the police and young people is not helpful. The kind of community policing we used to have has been eroded because it has become much more of an enforcement force and that is alienating young people.”


      Good old liars and hypocrites of rancid the Graun. Also caught Rory the tory taking time out BBC news flood’s England only news, from ongoing toryboy War on the Poor campaign. Although to be fair their campaign’s killed so many poor people, there’s probably none left.

    179. Angra mainyu says:

      Ken500, you don’t seem to explain how we are supposed to “go for it”.

      At this moment in time we don’t have a party in Scotland that is committed to another referendum. Triggers aren’t a commitment.

    180. caz-m says:

      My opinion on the referendum movement losing it’s momentum.
      IMO, we are going through a lull in proceedings. People have xmas on their mind, then in 2016 we have the Holyrood elections in May.

      In 2017 we have the local elections, after which, we should have purged Scotland of a great many Unionist politicians.

      Hopefully giving us a clearer path to Independence.


    181. Anagach says:

      Angra Mainyu says:
      I’m not here to upset you


      With a name like that, its exactly what your here to do.

      I will waste time on just one point in your “below the line” prop.

      “I can see why Sturgeon might not want to be seen to contradict her “once in a generation” position”

      Sturgeon does not have a position, and did not have a position on this. It was an observation. Only the more rabid Unionists and elements of the media are trying to sell it as a commitment, a promise, or even a “vow”.

      But it was and remains none of these things.

      Please tell us your not a classics Oxbridge graduate doing an internship at GCHQ or a media company hired by the Tories, and your just a lost soul with access to google.

    182. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Angra mainyu

      “At this moment in time we don’t have a party in Scotland that is committed to another referendum.”

      A referendum to do what? Lose because there, presently, is not the support in the country for Scotland to become independent. Is that what you would like to see? Thereby putting a lid on the indy movement for about 20-30 years.

      Yes, I am sure that is what YOU, the ‘concerned troll’, would like to see happen. The rest of us, however, are rather more realistic and pragmatic, patiently waiting for the right moment to strike. That will be when support for indy is securely and strongly in our favour. Then and only then, will the SNP call IndyRef#2. To ensure they have the mandate to do that, SNPx2 SE2016.

      Now please take your concern trolling elsewhere.

    183. Valerie says:

      Syria now submitting complaint to UN on coalition air strike after 3 from Syrian Army killed.

      This is what happens when they ramp up bombing since Russia is calling them out. Russia is the only invited force, so is getting good Intel.

      It’s a race to Raqqa now, to outdo Russia.

      Absolutely sickening, that we are involved.

    184. frogesque says:

      @ Famous 15

      Like most of Scotland, Fife has laboured (pun intended) many many years of under investment in infrastructure.

      I came to Five over 50 years ago, just before the Forth Road Bridge opened and there are parts of the road between Kincardine and the M90 junction at Rosyth that are little better, if at all since then.

      This, despite it always being known that if there was a problem on the FRB (weather, accident etc.) Then all Fife directed traffic would divert via Kincardine. The current chaos is a direct result of that underfunding.

      Exactly the same situation applies to the southern approaches to the Tay Bridge. The roads are pathetic!

      Now, I do realise that Kay (e) has to earn a crust and monstering the SNP is her default boot program but I suspect she has never been to Fife and seen the dire state of the road network.

      Chaos there undoubtedly is and folk are getting her up but everyone should remember the fault(s) have been found in time, there have been no disasters and no one has died.

      It requires a few weeks of patience and continuing good humour. What we don’t need right now is finger pointing and blame game. All are guilty!

      Also, what we don’t need is idiots taking to country lanes, driving like maniacs and putting their own and others lives at risk.

      Let the engineers get on with their job, let the politicians find the money to fix it and everyone else just keep the heid. There will be plenty of time for putting folk in the stocks afterwards.

    185. Iain says:

      We are almost there there, independence is within our grasp! Never in my lifetime has support for ending this terrible union been so strong. Labour has ripped itself to bits, the Tories are about to over the E.U. and the bum media is totally distrusted by most of Scotland. The bum media is dying on its feet. Vote Snp,Snp, in May.

    186. Angra Mainyu says:

      Anagach, I understand the compulsion amongst some people to join lynch mobs and things like the Orange order, and how it might help them feel part of something or comfortable or whatever, but there’s no need; I’m not here to point score and if I was I wouldn’t get much satisfaction from Thepnr.

      If you look at every exchange I have had with Thepnr, you will find his comments towards me are invariably nasty and insulting. You will find my responses to be fairly passive. I’d be surprised if you could find one example of an exchange that didn’t have that pattern.

      My name is just a name. It shouldn’t be an issue.

      I don’t know if Sturgeon’s once in a generation line amounts to a position or an observation or what it amounts to. My view is that it shouldn’t hold her back and it definitely shouldn’t hold the SNP back in terms of calling for another referendum. My guess is she said it to try and motivate people to seize the moment and vote Yes which is understandable.

      What is obvious is that the press are going to use it against her — they already have. It’s all part of the neverendum attack, given as proof that you can’t trust the SNP, etc. It’s all crap.

      It used to be SNP policy to call a referendum when they had a majority of support in elections and they changed it, as far as I understand it. I would prefer they went back to that and think it should be top of their manifesto every time — vote SNP and you are voting for a referendum on Independence. Works for me.

      The way it is now it’s like we are all walking on rice paper, scared to admit we want the one thing that is most important to us. I’d be happier if the SNP said it loud and proud — yes we want another referendum, asap, and if we lose that we will push for another, and another, ad infinitum until we win it.

      And if the people don’t want the uncertainty of that, they don’t need to vote for it. That’s democracy.

    187. Andrew McLean says:

      1. caz-m says: 9:30 am
      Yes I understand the lull, but as with the referendum itself the movement is still growing, I spoke recently to three women in their 80’s who were all unyieldingly no voters. When we spoke about how they would vote now all three will vote SNP in May and two would vote yes in any forthcoming referendum. The vow was given as a main reason, as they believe they were lied to, they were very forgiving of Gordon Brown, “he was used as a stooge” but the biggest thing is the Nicola factor, even a young Tory voter said she was the best politician in Scotland.

      The no vote in the referendum was not the cataclysmic event the no camp hoped for. For the main reason that they had nothing to offer, the vow is and was a sham, the lies told are daily being found out. And the whole philosophy of their campaign was defective. Negative, threatening and insulting was the mainstay of their offer, no wonder it’s being called bitter together, bitter describes the no camp to a tee.

      But the independence movement should go further, we should not let our future or indeed our history be bushwhacked by the unionists, for instance the remembrance commemorations is for all Scotts, we need to dismantle the false image of it only being a unionist event. We should honor the sacrifice of Scottish and indeed commonwealth service personnel, I am not talking of politicizing the day, but the independence movement travels furthest when it transcends politics.

      And it’s this transcendence that proclaims that Scotland is our country, our nation our future and that future will come despite the pollution from Westminster. The Independence movement needs all shades of opinion, not only as a democratic strength but as cultural strength, and it’s this cultural strength and awareness that will be the catalyst that fuels the progression of our nation, from subservient bondsman reliant on our neighbor’s control and rule, to the self control and independence that is ours by right.

    188. Anagach says:

      Angra Mainyu says:
      My name is just a name. It shouldn’t be an issue.

      “By their names shall ye know them.”

      Its not your given name, baring exceptionally cruel parents, so its your chosen name, that conveys meaning.

      BTW – Mine is a place I grew up.

      You post a lot about the SNP but then do not actually know their policy. You admit to not knowing the origin and context of statements used in your posts.

      So go away and read what policy is, go away and read the actual comments by Sturgeon.

      As I ready you, your position, argument if we are being kind, can be summed up in one small paragraph, so stick to that.

      And if you want to be taken seriously don’t pick a name with such a name.

    189. heedtracker says:

      Angra Mainyu says:

      If you are a concern troll, its rather encouraging that you’re here. Always look on the bright side. But it must be murdering standing in the way of a nation’s destiny, like a jobbie in front of a steam roller.

    190. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Angra Mainyu at 10.41

      “I would prefer they went back to that and think it should be top of their manifesto every time — vote SNP and you are voting for a referendum on Independence. Works for me.

      The way it is now it’s like we are all walking on rice paper, scared to admit we want the one thing that is most important to us. I’d be happier if the SNP said it loud and proud — yes we want another referendum, asap, and if we lose that we will push for another, and another, ad infinitum until we win it.

      And if the people don’t want the uncertainty of that, they don’t need to vote for it. That’s democracy.”

      Says it all for me also

    191. cirsium says:

      @Valerie, 10.34

      The race to Raqqa is not to outdo Russia. The US needs to hold Raqqa as part of its plan to dismantle Syria – see

      Probably in support of this plan, Turkey sent around 1200 soldiers into Mosul at the weekend. Iraq has told them to leave.

    192. Dan Huil says:

      ” …I understand the compulsion amongst some people to join lynch mobs and things like the Orange order, and how it might help them feel part of something or comfortable or whatever, but there’s no need; I’m not here to point score…”

      Oh dear, such classic condescension. Amusing in its own wee way, one supposes. One must try to resist such superciliousness if one desires to make one’s case in a calm and courteous manner.

    193. caz-m says:

      Andrew Mclean 10.59am

      Good to hear that they are still coming over from the dark side.

      In very broad terms, people are thinking of other things at the moment. I wish it wasn’t true but at this time of the year, you can’t expect anything else.

      I still fly my YES flag and have the car stickers up. Little things like that keeps the flame burning.

    194. Angra Mainyu says:

      Proud Cybernat (an interesting name for someone so meek)

      “there, presently, is not the support in the country for Scotland to become independent”

      Says who? The polls which are fabricated results coined in a system that is rancid and rigged, suggest that it’s about 50-50 right now. They might never be any better; you are guessing that they will improve which to my mind is reckless and irresponsible gambling with our future.

      I notice you are working to a 20-30 year timescale. Does that mean you are willing to wait 20-30 years for the next referendum?

      Here’s a question for everybody and I ask it in sincerity;

      Q) If you knew for an absolute fact that we were not going to have another referendum for at least another 15 years, how would you feel about that?

      Is there some unspoken agreement on Wings to attack and label anyone who wants a referendum on Scottish independence a troll?

      What a peculiar world we live in. We have an independence party doing its utmost to convince the world that it doesn’t want a referendum on independence and its followers calling those who do want a referendum trolls…

      Go figure. I guess you need to have gone to one of the good schools to get your head around those contradictions.

    195. Rock says:

      Angra Mainyu,

      “But if no firm commitment to a second referendum is given by the SNP by say Easter, I’ll probably campaign and vote against them.”

      For the moment we have to give the SNP the benefit of the doubt.

      No matter what, we must vote SNP+SNP.

      Voting against the SNP would only benefit the enemy.

      Voting Green or Socialist would also benefit the enemy because reducing the SNP vote is what they want more than anything.

    196. Anagach says:

      Angra Mainyu says:

      You admit to not knowing Sturgeon’s comments. Or SNP policy. But you post about both – erroneously.

      And post a lot of unrelated material to stir things.

      By their names shall ye know them.

      My name is from where I grew up.

      Your name, baring criminal cruel parents, is chosen by you and is not as you say “just a name”.

      It does however encapsulates your trolling behavior.

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