The separation of goals
In amongst a torrent of pretty mad analysis of the election result at the weekend, we noticed the most insane reason yet suggested for the loss of the SNP’s majority:
The co-founder of a much-lauded but little-read pro-independence website asserted that the SNP were cruising to victory until the Nats got the backing of the Scottish Sun and Nicola Sturgeon was pictured posing with the front cover endorsing her party.
The whole litany of gaping flaws in that argument is something the Yes movement has needed to talk about for some considerable time now. So let’s bite the bullet and do it.
The radical left has long had a major perception issue. It perceives that it speaks for “the working class”, and the blunt reality is that it doesn’t. Normal people simply DON’T despise the Sun. It’s NOT “toxic” – it’s the best-selling newspaper in both Scotland and England and most people who buy it and read it are working class.
Indeed, the radical left loathes most things that the working class actually like. You only need to say the words “Top Gear” to set them off onto a furious rant, yet it’s just about the most popular and successful programme the BBC has ever made. The working class also overwhelmingly supports the monarchy, no matter how much Cat Boyd of RISE might shout about hanging the “parasites” from lamp-posts or whatever. C2DE demographics are (sadly) the ones most likely to be angry about immigrants.
The Scottish Sun endorsing the SNP is not a new development, nor is an SNP First Minister posing with it.
Yet when it backed the Nats in 2011 and 2015 (having bitterly but unsuccessfully opposed them in 2007), and Alex Salmond was repeatedly seen posing happily with the paper, the SNP won a pair of vast landslides. It wasn’t “toxic” then and it isn’t now.
(Its support didn’t stop Labour winning elections either.)
As revealed by the hashtag in Kevin Williamson’s tweet, the excuse for the fresh outpouring of rage at the Scottish Sun last week was the verdict in the Hillsborough inquest. The left has never forgiven The Sun for the 1980s in general, but in particular for an appalling front cover story it ran shortly after the 1989 tragedy, and for which it apologised in the most abject terms a few years ago.
But the Scottish edition of the paper never ran the Hillsborough story. Practically the only journalist still associated in any way with the Sun who was there 27 years ago is Kelvin Mackenzie (the editor in 1989 and now a columnist), and the Scottish edition doesn’t carry his column either. There’s no justification for anyone screaming furiously about the Scottish Sun in relation to Hillsborough. It did absolutely nothing wrong.
And the left’s capacity for nursing historical grudges is oddly selective. It’s only 15 years since the Daily Record (which was by far Scotland’s biggest-selling newspaper at the time) was at the forefront of the homophobic “Keep Clause 2A” campaign, yet it seems to have been entirely forgiven while the Scottish Sun is still savaged after 27 years over an article it never ran and a man it doesn’t employ.
The fact is that there’s nothing uniquely loathsome about The Sun. Its owner is an unpleasant and unprincipled power-hungry billionaire, but that in no way distinguishes him from Paul Dacre (ultra-right-wing director of the Mail group), Richard “Dirty” Desmond (porn baron and owner of the Express), the Barclay Brothers (tax-dodging plutocrats in charge of the Telegraph and Spectator and formerly The Scotsman), Evgeny Lebedev (KGB boss turned capitalist oligarch and chief of the Independent) or just about any other newspaper proprietor.
The Sun (both editions) also has a deeply hostile attitude towards benefits recipients, but once again that’s something it has in common both with most other newspapers (including the supposedly left-wing Mirror, which is as happy as anyone else to run stories about “scroungers”) and the general public, particularly the working class.
Vitriolic, hysterical attacks on one newspaper that’s no worse than most are in reality nothing more than exercises in “virtue signalling” – a means by which those on the left jockey for position in the commentariat. They’re a kind of nuclear arms race, by which the only way to continue to gain attention (or avoid vilification) is to continually be more and more extreme in your self-righteous holier-than-thou piety than everyone else – the left’s equivalent of a Katie Hopkins article.
But we’re getting off the subject. The relevance to the independence movement is that the radical left in Scotland are convinced that the way to win people round to the Yes cause is to promise them a Marxist utopia. (To that end, many have delighted in the loss of the SNP’s majority and the fact that the election result threatens to make the party more beholden to the Greens, who they hope will push the Nats to the left.)
It’s a view that this website has consistently warned against for years, and indeed since our very first weeks of existence:
But it’s one that persists in the radical left despite all the available evidence. The fact of the matter is that even with the benefit of a greatly increased membership in the wake of the referendum, far more money to campaign with and a high media profile including appearances on almost all of the leaders’ TV debates, the Greens still secured only 6.6% of the vote on the list, and a miserable 0.6% in constituency seats. Just 3.6% of the total votes in the election were cast for the Greens.
The Greens are NOT a popular party. They’re especially not popular with the working class – their vote was most heavily concentrated in comfortable middle-class areas. The only constituency seats they seriously contested were Edinburgh Central and Glasgow Kelvin, both well-to-do bohemian enclaves.
(The former was won by the Tories because the Greens stood a no-hoper candidate who took a third of the pro-indy vote, enabling Ruth Davidson to sneak in and grab a huge propaganda victory by a few hundred votes.)
RISE and Solidarity, the other two parties of the radical left, did even worse, scraping barely 1% of the list vote between them. Their combined vote was just over half of UKIP’s. Taking policy advice from them and the Greens is, by any remotely sane analysis, NOT going to win over any of the 55% of Scots who voted No.
(If the public “despises” The Sun, yet still hands over its money for around 220,000 copies of it every single day, then how should we assess its opinion of a party that can garner just 11,000 votes which don’t cost anything?)
Political activists in Scotland are going to have to decide quite quickly what’s more important to them – the pursuit of independence, a goal tantalisingly within sight which will give them the chance to make their case against the SNP’s small-c conservatism at the ballot boxes of an independent Scotland; or railing with futile impotence about the monarchy and The Sun and Kelvin MacKenzie and Jeremy Clarkson forever, in the hopes of maybe securing a couple of pointless, powerless MSPs for a few years.
The latter option, of course, is much easier. There’ll never be a shortage of right-wing hate figures to shout at. It’ll always be possible to spend your time having a jolly day out with some student pals to one of Donald Trump’s golf resorts, bellowing through a megaphone at the bewildered minimum-wage employees from Eastern Europe then scooting off after an hour to post pictures on Twitter and wait for the revolution of the proletariat to spontaneously erupt while you’re at a gender-balanced poetry workshop.
It’s also much easier to make a marketable name for yourself that way. If you want to wallow in grotesque, ghoulish grief tourism about an event that happened before you were born in a social, cultural and political environment that you don’t understand the first thing about, you’ll always find a willing audience that loves to hear bogeymen being vitriolically excoriated in a small but noisy echo chamber of self-congratulation.
The downside is that other than inflating your own hungry ego it achieves absolutely nothing. You’ll never reach anyone who wasn’t already on your side, and soon enough someone will come along prepared to be even more pious and intolerant and extreme than you, at which point you’ll be the new baddie in the endless People’s Front of Judea factional wars of self-absorbed ideological purity that have divided and subdivided the left for more years than most people have been alive.
(It can only be a matter of time before RISE, like Solidarity and the SSP that gave birth to it, tears itself into ever-smaller splinter groups shrieking at each other over some ridiculously hair-splitting point of arcane principle or language, or an argument about which order the letters of “LGBTQIFA” should go in this week.)
The Scottish Parliament controls almost none of the levers necessary to bring about real change, and the UK is a fundamentally Conservative country which has elected Tories roughly 65% of the time throughout the entirety of living memory. The only way there’s even a slim chance of reaching the left’s goals is to secure independence first, and that won’t be done by terrifying normal people with lurid tales of a nation turned upside-down and inside-out by a bunch of over-excited junior Trotskys.
Normal people want their bins collected and their fires put out and their streets kept safe and potholes in their roads fixed and their illnesses treated. They rather like and respect the Queen. They buy The Sun and they watch Mrs Brown’s Boys. They have no idea what “land reform” is and nor should they – it would make no difference to most of them even if it happened. They don’t give a toss about “standardised testing” so long as their kids get educated. They don’t want their taxes put up.
(They might say that they do in opinion polls, but what they actually mean by that is someone else’s taxes, and if you campaign on a platform of putting up everybody’s – well, ask Scottish Labour what happens.)
The biggest contribution the radical left could make to the cause of independence now would be a period of silence. They’ve had a big platform for the last 18 months to make their case, and the electorate has rejected it resoundingly. Now they’re turning viciously and jealously on the parts of the Yes movement that HAVE been successful in connecting with real voters and actually persuading them.
The SNP was so badly damaged by Nicola Sturgeon posing with the Scottish Sun, so out of touch with the public’s hatred of the paper, that, er, it got the biggest vote ever recorded in a Holyrood election, increased its vote in both the constituencies and the list, and secured a record 59 constituency seats, as well as – barring some pretty spectacular unforeseen events – very likely securing the 2021 election too.
(The Nats’ total vote was 234,148 higher than 2011’s landslide, a 13% increase.)
The vehemence of your own personal beliefs does not translate to those beliefs being shared by others. That’s a basic lesson the radical left has needed to learn for a long time, and sadly it shows no sign as yet of doing so. We can only hope that if they can’t or won’t just shut up for a bit, the electorate’s stoic total indifference to their diatribes will at least stop them from fatally damaging the indy movement until such times as another referendum might come along.
It’s easier not buying any of them
Thanks Rev.
One doesn’t have to be a psychologist to work out why writing like this makes those allegedly pro-independence journalists, so prone to “virtue signalling”, really really jealous.
Yup, I only see the Sun as a means to the end – of the union. Those who read it are not debating issues of any import, simply consuming rubbish like those at a fast food establishment.
HERESY! BURN THE UNBELIEVER!
“It’s easier not buying any of them”
Thanks for that insight, Greg.
For the first time, I think, I am in a complete orgasm of agreement with every word of this article.
Very well said, Stuart.
I arrived at Wings via B***a C*******a; but, over the past year, I have spent less and less time on BC – I find its ultra-left-wing hectoring tone off-putting.
I fully endorse the Rev’s post on which we are commenting.
BTW, as regards The Sun, like many an old hot metal hack, I don’t like Rupert Murdoch, or his politics. However, from bitter experience, I acknowledge, he is a newspaper man to his fingertips, and, by and large, the News International journalists, a good few of whom I saw on their way up, are a superior breed to the dummies on the Record and Sunday Mail, or the Daily Mail crew.
As one former newspaper editor of my acquaintance said to me recently: “It demonstrates what a bad state the newspaper industry is in, that Murdoch is the best of the proprietors, and certainly the most-supportive of his journalists”.
Most folks just want to cut along with each other in peace. They want an equitable society where they don’t get crapped on from a great height. One where they have, as you say, a decent education system, decent life chances available and a reasonably honest and transparent form of government.
I also don’t think most folks in Scotland are out to topple the bastions of capitalism. They simply don’t want them dictating terms to their government, their democracy. (shrugs)
In short I’d say most folks simply want a government that gives a crap about its own population and acts accordingly with service and care for its communities. Y’know, rather than endlessly manipulate their opinions on any given subject for their personal gain kinda thing.
My idea of radical comes down to my choice of summer change of jammies. Trap door long johns back in the drawer for the heatwave and will it be shorts and a T or commando? 🙂
On the meeja? Yeah, pretty much all of it is owned by utter bastards. Who knew? 😀
I trust you are feeling better for getting that off your chest?
Reading it certainly made an already beautiful morning even better.
Take no prisoners Rev!
Well said says Fred who’s at present wolfing a Tunnock’s Teacake, also on the banned list of the uber correct.
The majority was lost because half the left wing yes voters didnae get aff their backsides to vote. Who’s fault is that? I include Dumbarton and North East Fife. They came out for WM 2015, but let others vote for them in 2016.Had they voted as a movement like 2015 then the SNP would be at 70 plus seats. That would have sent a real message to WM and Ruth.
Instead we have fatty parading around as if she beat the SNP. When in actual fact half the Labour voters switched to Tory and we didn’t counter it in numbers.
So very well said, Stu.
Should be required reading for all who hope to play a part in politics.
The fact, as you point out, is that the SUN Scotland with a Scottish editor and deputy editor did not run with the Hillsborough disaster and in recent years the Sun in Scotland actually had an editor and his deputy who were both members of the SNP.
Tabloid journalism – ie getting very often quite complicated issues into compelling copy in short sentences – is a very fine art indeed. It is just a difficult and just as clever as writing well for serious journals. But journalists as a general rule write to order in the tabloids. I have the oddest feeling that the proprietors of the SUN tumbled to the idea that the Tories as opposition to the SNP and independence would be a disaster for the union. Which,of course,it is.
Where will the Sun go now? Will Murdoch warm to his Scottish roots?
More interesting. Where does the Record go?
I afraid you an count me in the “walk past the news stand” brigade.
Sites like this has illustrated clearly the manipulation and misinformation the MSM can peddle to an unsuspecting readership.
To be honest the only time I really pay attention to any of them is after they get caught out in another SNP bad assassination attempt.
Then I trawl through the online ones and see who was the worst/most hysterical.
So far the Daily Mail and Express are streets ahead.
The Suns biggest flaw as far as I see it or relegating a UK army helicopter crash with. 5 fatalities to page 11 when some soap actress fills the cover.
But that’s what sells newspapers like the sun……..
On balance I don’t think the Sun added anything to the campaign (although personally I would have avoided holding the paper up) but I seriously doubt that this was a pivotal moment. The Scottish Sun is a different paper and has always ploughed a different political furrow. It may be that some people forget this but I am not so sure.
Also if the fact that it is owned by Murdoch is an issue then surely the Sun and Sky is also beyond the pale (and anything else he owns).
It certainly would not have driven SNP voters to go out and vote Tory or Lib Dem as they have little issue with Murdoch and as we can see the Labour vote did not move much at all from the forecast 22% so they gained nothing either.
I think the biggest problems the SNP faced were apathy and complacency. When you are odds on favourite to win by a mile it does take the excitement out of an election. The forecast of a 65% to 70% turnout was woefully off the mark. I think that it may well have been SNP voters that took it easy.
That said I can fully understand antipathy to the Sun but I just do think it has the influence it used to have – on both sides of the border.
The question of whether non Dom tax evaders should own the Press. Against the Ministerial Code and lied about.
The Sun is not popular 200,000 copies 5.2 million pop. More popular than the Greens.
The referendum was lost because the Yes movement didn’t win over the middle class, bankers, and newspaper proprieters. The sad thing is that the working class don’t win elections. And a future referendum won’t be won until Scotland’s establishment is persuaded that they will make more profit with independence than tied to a suffocating union.
“I think the biggest problems the SNP faced were apathy and complacency. When you are odds on favourite to win by a mile it does take the excitement out of an election.”
Despite voters being told for months on end that the election was a foregone conclusion and they might as well not bother, the SNP increased its constituency vote by over 150,000. Funny sort of complacent apathy.
You could argue that the SNP’s reluctance to accept the settled will of the people in a referendum on independence is just as quixotic and idealistic as those who voted for the Greens, RISE et al. Also i don’t remember the SNP being too open to these arguments in the 80’s, 90’s and 2000’s when they were polling in the low 20’s…”ok you want independence but thats not going to happen so just vote labour to make sure you get a left wing government”
Ultimately im a romantic and hope people vote for what they believe even if they know that the likelhood of that actaully changing things is low. OK you believe in independence and nothing else (or at least that nothing is more important)…others don’t…why can’t you just accept that?
O/T
Great to see that we’re back on track.
I posted this latterly, see we have moved on and hope I’m allowed to post it on here.
Forget about statistics, the Greens and so on. Let’s move on as you can be rest assured that Moothy et all will be working hard on a strategy right now, led by Tomkins, to infiltrate colleges, universities etc etc … everything and anything … to boost their numbers.
The BBC and corrupt media, our GREATEST enemy, will be lining up to put a spin on every last word that comes out of Holyrood: FOR Moothy (any anti-Independence voice) and AGIN Nicola.
Let’s get focused and start supporting people like Ponsonby and Robertson.
@ Robert Louis at 7:54am ….
link to indiegogo.com
Stuart you most be totally worn out and seem to be down with the result. Don’t be because it’s not as bad as you seem to think it is, excellent in fact when you think of all the doom and gloom propaganda that’s been spouted in relation to the oil situation, 15 billion black hole and so on. Don’t forget that it has been YOU who has contributed MOST of all to the Independence cause. This site is totally unique. Your articles picking up on media lies and distortions, on a daily basis, have educated thousands of others and through you, them and us have managed to combat the corrupt media propaganda machine (not Bella et al). No mean task. They, SCUM, didn’t win. YOU DID.
Can you imagine what the result could have been like if it hadn’t been for you? I shudder to think. We NEED you Stuart. Take a break. Head off to the Bahamas or whatever and come back refreshed and ready to battle on. You could even think of buying a boat out there, anchor it in International waters and do a Radio Caroline on them (fund raised by us), lol.
Anyway it’s a beautiful day where I am. Hope it is for you too. A couple of songs you may have heard your grandparents or parents sing. May even have sung yourself.
We live in a fantastic country that is home to millions of fantastic people: something to REALLY fight for. C’mon let’s do it x
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
Good article. Good timing. The challenge is on with a max of 5 years until the next Yes chance if we are voted out of Europe. After being voted out the popular opinion will swell for another independence referendum, but it will be opposed both in the parliament and in Westminster to begin with. Holyrood will then begin to demand it and the longer Westminster oppose it, the greater the Yes support will grow. Another Tory government will be voted in to London prior to Scottish elections and unless we are “permitted” to hold another referendum the Scottish election will return a massive majority for the swift Yes vote. I just saw all that in the bottom of my tea cup.
Of course England might vote to stay in Europe and then fa’kens.
Claiming that the Scottish Sun is somehow separate from the other is a bit like saying the Scottish Labour Party is separate from the UK party.
I did not like seeing Nicola Sturgeon displaying her copy of the Sun. I do not think that is it was necessary and IMO it probably cost as many (if not more) votes than it won.
You argue that Alex Salmond did the same thing. This does not make it right and he did not do it in the week of the Hillsborough decision.
“Take a break.”
I plan to. This needed said first.
Normal people want their bins collected and their fires put out and their streets kept safe and their illnesses treated.
I was out on the streets every weekend for 2 months and pot holes were raised as an issue more times than the EU, tax and immigration put together. It is the little things that people see every day that matter.
“Claiming that the Scottish Sun is somehow separate from the other is a bit like saying the Scottish Labour Party is separate from the UK party.
You argue that Alex Salmond did the same thing. This does not make it right and he did not do it in the week of the Hillsborough decision.”
Oh fuck off, Bryan. The Scottish Sun DID NOT RUN THE HILLSBOROUGH STORY. That in and of itself proves it’s not the same paper. Last year the English edition said the SNP were evil monsters while the Scottish edition said “Vote SNP”. They are, self-evidently, different papers with different editors and different reporters, which happen to share owners and large chunks of non-political content.
Several reasons why the SNP are shy of majority…
The anti-SNP vote going tactically to LibDems and Labour in two seats with a large % of MoD-related jobs and also to the Tories in our delightfully pro-Union capital city.
Good constituency results being offset by less generous pickings from the regional list – exactly what the system was rigged to achieve.
The last majority administration was a fluke – an aligning of the planets in political terms – one that was never meant to happen.
The SNP support failed to get off its backside as a result of the media’s assertion that all the SNP needed to do was to ensure NS didn’t spontaneously combust in order to win a third term.
I’m sure there are others equally valid, but The Sun being responsible? Please…
Well said Rev, you’ve put it a lot better than I ever could, but, for once, I agree with every word. Doffs bunnet.
Macart @ 11.44, good post as usual from you, and I think you are spot on also with your analysis Bunnet doffed again.
Roddy Macdonald says “For the first time, I think, I am in a complete orgasm of agreement with every word of this article.”
I don’t want to impinge on Roddy’s privacy, but I’m with him there!
I cannot argue with much of that, Rev Stu. Yet I hope that your criticism of the Greens and the more left-wing activists is not just going to inflame the usual suspects.
The point is that just as the Greens & left-wingers can, and often do, criticise the SNP, both as a party and as a government it is no bad thing that they do so.
Any more than it is no bad thing that SNP supporters are often critical of the other independence supporting parties – or indeed critical of the SNP itself.
No political movement or party should be beyond criticism nor should they condemn such criticism. Differing opinions are a healthy sign and they defeat complacency, smugness and over confidence.
None of which should be taken as a sign of internal factionalisation. It is much more a sign of people being aware that no party or faction is perfect and thus there are none that cannot be improved.
It is political movements we are considering – not brainwashed dictatorships.
Hi Stu
The SNP did put on votes and turnout was up but I think we could have got more out. I think the 50%+ figure was achievable if the turnout had been 65%. It might have made the difference by securing Baillie’s seat and one or two others.
I am not complaining. I think we did pretty damned well and I do agree that the Sun thing did not register. It is an issue that concerns the politically active rather than the voting public. We can argue till the cows come home over such matters but it simply doesn’t resonate more widely.
“One of the big mistakes made in the indyref was being prescriptive about what indy meant politically”
I hope this avoided in future. People can see the make-up of Scotland’s parties and politicians – broadly social democratic.
Scotland has a history of universal, state-funded education. There is a grounding and belief in universalism across a wide range of issues.
Surely voters understand this broad-base and there is no need to cloud the issue of independence in talk of a republic, socialism, nationalisation, etc. These are totally different issues to be decided by future, elected Scottish governments.
Soft “No” voters are surely more likely to be scared off by all this detailed political projection? They are open to be duped that a “Yes” to independence is likely to pre-determine a whole set of future events they may not believe in.
I think that’s about right. Some points well made.
The smaller parties hardly made an impact and the greens got something out of it where they could in the City areas.
Let’s accept that and move on.
Great numbers are buying the Sun but only for the horse/dog pages and the footie in most cases. It’s popular so what, just accept it and move on.
So is the Great British…whatever on auntie tv … move on!
I stopped buying the Record in 1973 ish during the 3-day week and a local chip shop lost my custom forever (for a poster saying electricity workers F,ck off) as I was on strike during the 3-day week and was part of the electrical unions power cuts action.
I was younger then. I never bought a Record since and never apologised… 🙂
PS: She apologises.
Hope she will learn to be more careful but I doubt it.
link to archive.is
Probably one of the best peices you have written.
Thank you.
Cheers Stu. I know only one radical well enough to speak to on a regular basis.He voted NO because his cause reaches beyond Scotland’s borders to his English brothers.
His wish is to change the UK, even though there is absolutely no evidence of any movement in the direction he wishes to go.
I put it to him that Scottish independence first, direction of travel second would be an achievable goal, but his utter hatred of the SNP trumps everything. Murdoch and Trump’s chums, apparently.
He is as much a hindrance to Scottish independence as the London establishment he loathes also, hamstrung by dogma which allows only one way. His way.
His language towards me has lately become as intemperate as the unionists I know, which is saying something, even though we are essentialy on the same side.
A ‘chronic’ as Derek Bateman would say.
Hi Rev, Really glad to hear you’re taking a break. God knows you’ve earned it.
Like Petra above I think you are the single most important force for Independence outside the SNP government.
You are utterly irreplaceable. Have a good time.
Excellent article, most people are at the centre, straying too far to left or right only frightens people.
Until you’re blue in the face, I’m afraid, Stu.
The prize is to wangle a seat on the Holyrood list, and fight the good , if never ending fight against Ra Bosses.
I have ceased taking any Dead Tree Scrolls. Print is dead.
From now until Independence we require single minded Unity.
But power egos among some minor luminaries seem to bubble up every now and then.I want to get rid of the Saxe Coburgs/Battenburgs. But it can wait.
Great analysis.
Haven’t posted here in a long while but yea, what Stu says.
I even bought an Amazon Fire Stick for my fuck off capitalist flat screen telly so I can continue watching ‘the real’ Top Gear.
Clarkson is a fucking odious twat but It’s a cross I’ll bare.
I don’t blame the Greens or RISE, it’s that bastard d’Hondt that needs a doing.
Kevin Williamson is wrong on the polling figures being connected with the Sun endorsement. There was a gradual dip in SNP support starting a month before the election and the actual result was on trend with that.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Many in the SNP expected this to happen as the campaign started to heat up and all the media attacks began. A BBC biased audience on independence didn’t help in the last debate.
The ‘Both Votes SNP’ strategy was all about holding onto that lead as much as possible, and fighting complacency – partly caused by the small parties spreading the myth that SNP constituency seats were safe.
Truth is the Tories fought a clever campaign by making it all about the constitution, and focusing unionist votes behind them.
But that was expected all along, and the sensible response to it should have been to focus pro-indy votes behind the SNP, to keep open the chance of a second referendum, and to keep the momentum going.
And at the very least, not attacking the main independence party in the final week of an election campaign and discouraging votes for them. Absolutely idiotic if your aim is self-government for this country.
Once again, clear incisive analysis. Thank you. We will continue to consolidate -‘make haste slowly’; I hope you realise how much we rely on you to sift your way through the dross, debunk and provide the kind of links we need to substantiate or disprove claims made in the MSM. Take a break man!
My own personal opinion is that it was an error of judgement to appear holding the Sun so soon after the recent verdict on Hillsborough.
However compared with; lying to pensioners and about job security with a No vote, renewal of Trident and attacking countries in the ME, IDS and his evil reforms of benefits, protecting paedophiles in WM, etc etc,…
I was campaigning and at polling stations during the Holyrood elections and some previous SNP voters said they were voting for some other party because of; local issues mainly to do with rubbish in the closes, fracking, ‘timidity’ re tax raising, ‘I love Nicola but wish she would stop going on about indy’, and NO-ONE mentioned the Sun newspaper.
Can we not have Will unblocked, just for this article? Please. 🙂
Btw, was NCN actually the Rev. having a bit of fun?
People are complex entities as it is. They do not fit into stereotypes en masse. Sometimes I think the expectation of political parties is that their supporters are in total agreement with what they dictate as their preferred policy. I do not think they do.
One thing of which I am certain and the reason I visit this site is that I want independence.That is unshakeable. The SNP offer that very thing openly.
Socialism is itself a broad church with many levels. Not everybody can agree on what constitutes a real Socialist.but we can agree that the single ideal of freedom is what we all want.
Have your well deserved break Stu,and take with you my personal thanks.
Thrawn
‘OK you believe in independence and nothing else (or at least that nothing is more important)…others don’t…why can’t you just accept that?’
Because self governance is the first most basic democratic right of all nations.
Whether we have a left,centre or right leaning govt. is something which may change according to wishes of the people of Scotland.
The interests of Scotland being paramount whatever hue the government.
That is something that cannot happen whilst Scotland is controlled by Westminster, which will never put Scotland’s interests ahead of it’s own priorities.
Like you didn’t know that already.
A good article. I can relate to this as I was a commited Marxist in my teens and early 20s, much to the amusement of my staunchly royalist Sun reading working class parents. Student politics could damage the Yes side more than a newspaper.
I can almost understand the Greens fielding candidates in Bohemian city areas, but why in Fluffy’s rural constituency?
Great Article Stu.
Lets sort out our common enemy first.
Stewart Hosie will need to ensure that the SNP are the YES movement and that they are more vocal and assertive.
I thought that the demo at Pacific Quay was very positive and disappointed that there were no follow ups.
With no support in the media the SNP needs to be out on the streets as much as possible, more SNP organised independence marches,rallies,demos,cavalcades, all having increasing attendances. More support required in and on online sites. The SNP needs a free newspaper similar to the Metro to get the message over to the general public, unionist lies need to repudiated as soon as possible, not left to fester.
The campaign against Alastair Carmichael was a great example of how Yessers can unite and support those who would be brushed aside by the elite westminster establishment.
WoS also highlighted the ludicrous case of the starving woman who was fined an absurd amount for theft of food, meantime the taxpayers especially those on PAYE subsidize and pay the non-elected members of the House of Lords.
Remember it is teamwork that will get Scotland it’s Independence.
I’ve stayed fairly silent for the last 18 months, commenting on blogs at least.
Whilst this is as excellently written as ever Stu, I don’t see how lending your obviously amazing talent and isolated (and incorrect imo) tweets as a vehicle to ostracise the hard left from the ongoing conversation in the indy movement which exactly all that can be achieved with this.
I can already envisage my twitter time line becoming more ‘yeah, bloody lefties using ipads’ which is also the best metaphor for the premise of this article.
Why not go the whole hog and condemn the NHS, the welfare state, free prescriptions etc.? All of which are far left institutions which are imperiled by our small c-conservatism allowing neoliberals to eat away at them – not really a hidden story or hard left scaremongering is it?
The left has the right to defend these institutions and the political ethos that created them, and the desire to see that practice carried forward.
The left should not shut up for the foreseeable future in my opinion, for the simple fact that as much as it saddens many, the No’s still have it, and may still have it for quite a long time, perhaps long enough to see these institutions utterly destroyed by neoliberalism and the apathy of many who just don’t care as their kids get educated as you put it.
I would think for most people the minutiae of political bickering is intensely boring and puts them off.
From my own perspective, railing against what has been said in a newspaper or online, to relatives or friends is often met with bemusement and blank looks. For them it is simply another world and to say that they would change their mind based on a front page picture suggests an investment in a belief system they are simply not part of.
This is one of the reasons I like WoS, I get to rail and vent about these things.
Many of us here have experienced poverty first hand and the editorial policy or endorsement of a newspaper is pretty low on your list of day to day priorities. In fact even buying a newspaper is pretty low down that list.That does not deny the huge power newspapers have, hence why Wos exists.
However we are looking at the big picture and I believe that a Socialist Utopia was one of the things most off putting to No voters. Ironically the Tory vote going up may reassure many of those that Independence would not mean their voice is not heard.
A decent standard of living is all that most people want with opportunities through education and work and care for health and wellbeing when you need it. How you achieve that should be decided, amongst other things, by your vote.
We do not have that at present with a Westminster government which is why I believe we should be independent first before anything else. BC and others appear to have no real perspective on this.
Spot on Rev as ever. And something I’ve been trying to tell people for a long time especially since the election..
I feel like a record player going round and round…
People say the SNP didn’t get the vote. How to you get the vote out, or indeed sustain any campaign which starts, centres, and finishes with an uphill battle against the media? We need a continual presence on the street of something like the order of the YES campaign before we begin turning heads. With they best will in the world, (check); the best arguments in the world, (check); the best people in the world, (check…mostly), it is still unsustainable to keep it up.
If we look at the peaks and troughs of the whole Independence campaign, we are pretty good at getting people active at the grassroots level, but once that peak emphasis passes, without a supportive media, our campaign regresses much further than it properly should because people tune in to “touch base with the revolution” but just find a complete load of Unionist tosh bouncing off their ear drums and telling them it never happened. They switch off, and drift off back into their own world; lost to us until the next big event can grab their attention.
It’s the media. It’s the media. It’s the media. Not just the bullshit interference from the BBC and newspapers, but just as important is the media on the other side of the street; the news media which ISN’T there; Our media, the channel we desperately need to keep our support engaged and informed.
It feels like we have to start every campaign from ground zero, and spend the first few months fixing punctures and blowing the dust off the placards.
We need an effective media to sustain ourselves, and maintain the high benchmarks we achieve.
Media is the key. I cannot see our ultimate success until we have this issue of broadcasting laid to rest.
Completely O/T, but Rev see the next time you commission a survey , please ask the question,”do you completely understand how the votes casted, are allocated?”.
Well said Stew, but what I will say about the hard left is that they work really hard and are great at getting people out to campaign.
The average Yes supporter will sit in the house and read the sun while watching top gear.
Bravo Rev.
I have given up on them….to find the truth/facts,sometimes you have to crawl through the jaggy’s.
Some folk just want to tiptoe through the tulips….fuckem.
Thanks
Enjoy the break,well earned. 😉
Standing in ovation Rev.
Needed to be said and courageously put.
Petra, “Take a break.”
Rev Stuart Campbell, “I plan to”.
Good man, you certainly deserve it.
The contribution this site makes is immense, with an effect which can’t be be judged in hard and fast numbers. Yet we all know we are, in a hugely significant way, where we are because of Wings’ contributions these past years.
Enjoy your break, Stu.
Thank goodness for Wings and a bit of sanity. We won, yes we won, so we did not win a majority but thank goodness we won. Now if people could get their head round how difficult as Stuart said it is to win a majority in a Parliament set up in such a way that it is practically unatainable. We now have the joy of showing the Tories up for what they are.
The Sun is no different from the Mirror, the Record or the Daily Mail, the people who read them are practically interchangeable, on the most part elderly, they buy the paper of choice on price, some buy it for the back page or they were used to getting their TV veiwing off the paper.
May I repeat something worth saying, WE WON last Thursday.
You’ve done it again Stu
This telling the truth stuff will be your downfall you know they love to shoot the messenger, just checking my watch to see how long it takes for the “Aye Buts” to come along with all their reasons as to why you’re right but you’re wrong
As you say most folk are somewhere in the middle and hope pretty much for the Goldilocks life, not too hard, or too soft, just nice and then pretty much leave us alone
Political success should be when you ask your politicians, is everything OK and they answer YES, then that’ll do for me
My kids can count and I can eat my sticky bun in tranquility
I’ve oversimplified, there’ll be a complaint I never addressed every demographic in the entire world in under 150 words
Life’s shit again
Rev,
Agreed that you be need a break.
Will you set up a fund raiser so that we can contribute a little fund for you to do something nice?
I think you should?
Yeah, I think I’ll take a break too. Voluntary or involuntary!
Van MOT time 🙁
What is the point of all that Green-baiting? Is it because while both the Greens and the SNP leadership see independence as a means to an end, the Greens organised towards their end (all agree on the philosophical basis, majority and minority views on independence but nobody sees it as a big deal), while the SNP is organised the other way round (all agree on independence, majority and minority views on philosophical basis but nobody sees it as a big deal)?
Seriously, with the Greens you know exactly what you get – it’s in the manifesto, the Greens are a policy-led party. If you get so worked up about what they won’t, just disagree. If you get so worked up about the (very transparent and straight) way the Greens go about trying to achieve their aims, I’m sorry, that falls back on you.
Found it quite remarkable that the Oran Mor Menshevik Collective foamed at the mouth re The Sun, but at least a couple of them contribute to the Grauniad, which not only grossly misrepresented the Yes campaign throughout the Referendum campaign, but also exhibited some quite outrageous quasi-racist commentary re Scots, using epithets that, were they used on other groups would have be roundly condemned. Rusbridger, White, Preston, and especially Steve Bell were the chief exponents.
Nice bedfellows.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The separation of goals In amongst a torrent of pretty mad analysis of the election result at the weekend, we […]
Got to say great work Rev,i have been bemused by just how little the indy parties members seem to understand how the damn electoral system actually works.
Or that the majority thing was never on the cards due to the SNP`s electoral stratagy of going after the 1st vote.
The way i see it Nicola would have to have dropped out the running in certain constituances to get that and in doing so let Labour into opposition which was a big risk that the blue tories might pick up the yoon vote and pip labour to the win which they did and anyway its madness to even try to manipulate.
Nope the smart thing was to show up the electoral system by camaigning like a FPTP election,well as we all can see we increased the vote but got very little reward for doing so from the electoral system if anything it rewarded parties who cant connect with the majority.
The whole thing is just one big con if we had got that vote westminster UK britnat style of democracy it would have broken records.
Indy will be the long path we decided that in 2014 so just get out the popcorn and watch the clown show for another few years,but dont worry a trigger will appear well its the britnats it wont be long before they come up with another great way to screw up the UK
“virtue signalling” – nice to have a descriptive catch phrase for that because it’s bugged me for years, the folk who smother you with their intolerance of your nuanced views on complex topics cos they’re so bloody eh, virtuous.
As for the rest of the content, agree with lots of it, particularly the theme that anyone who went to University can talk of from personal experience: the socialist worker types who plan the revolution, eh, like Alistair Darling.
That doesn’t all mean we have to give in to popularism, but I’m very much in agreement with Rev that minor divisions and intolerance of those should be discussed after the first round, which is independence. Otherwise you’re like the (probably disingenuous) labour supporter I
Agree with Major Bloodnok d’Hondt needs reworked. Obviously set up to be a block to the SNP, never thinking that they would increase in popularity to today’s numbers.
Was it ever set up to get the third party’s leader into Holyrood along with a failed MP and now failed MSP along with a failed Slab former leader who thinks we are not programmed to run our own country? and too many others too mention.
Scottish Labour same old same old.
“the Greens still secured only 6.6% of the vote on the list, and a miserable 0.6% in constituency seats. Just 3.6% of the total votes in the election were cast for the Greens.”
Plee-ease. The stuff with the 3.6% is mathematical nonsense.
But let’s just assumed the Greens did take votes from the SNP, let’s do some number crunching. Say the Green would have got the customary 4%, and the SNP list vote would not have fallen, would there any more SNP MSPs? Any more independence-supporting MSPs?
Harsh, but true.
What struck me about the ‘voices of the Left’ (and I consider myself left of centre) was the almost comedic supernatural ability to say and do exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time at almost every opportunity.
The sad thing for me is seeing many of the ‘alternative’ media`s voices coming out in support of RISE and the whole ‘both votes SNP bad’ mantra. I understood why the Sunday Herald was pushing it, but I thought those who had spent the previous three years fighting against MSM propaganda would be able to see through a thoroughly agenda driven push to split the SNP vote.
Ach, it`s done now. The way I see it, you`re either for independence or you`re not. If you are for independence then we are in this together for the long haul.
There`s enough crap being thrown at the independence movement, we shouldn`t be throwing bricks at each other.
Saying that, if you were a Yesser in 2014, and at some point we`ve fallen out but you are still a Yesser, then you`re pint is waiting at the bar.
Let`s talk.
“virtue signalling” – nice to have a descriptive catch phrase for that because it’s bugged me for years, the folk who smother you with their intolerance of your nuanced views on complex topics cos they’re so bloody eh, virtuous.
As for the rest of the content, agree with lots of it, particularly the theme that anyone who went to University can talk of from personal experience: the socialist worker types who plan the revolution, eh, like Alistair Darling.
That doesn’t all mean we have to give in to popularism, but I’m very much in agreement with Rev that minor divisions and intolerance of those divisions should be discussed after the first round, which is independence. Otherwise you’re like the (probably disingenuous) labour supporter I talked to during the indy ref who said she didn’t see the point of independence if we were going to be in the EU and use the pound. I asked her would she vote for indy if we were out of those; she paused, and said yes. So I said, so it’s a kind of all or nothing approach from you? She walked off.
Are there really people who see a picture of Nicola on the front of The Sun and decide that’s it I’m voting Tory or whatever that party is called now.
The Sun seems to be able to come up with some very witty headlines. I liked the one about Neil Oliver:
Oliver, please can we have no more
Although their headline about the result of the Scottish election “Just like Nat’ was pretty good the best was in the Evening Express
Nic’s back Labour Whacked Tories thrown a bone.
Like about a million other YESers, I agree with all of this. I hope people like Lesley Riddoch and Greens take it on board, especially
(The Nats’ total vote was 234,148 higher than 2011’s landslide, a 13% increase.)
Have a great time off!
*Your pint. Not you`re. Gah
well i agree with the points made , most people turn off when politics are mentioned , they are just to busy getting by from one week to the next.
I think most people believe the VOW has been delivered , try finding any media outlet that bursts this little plook they simply dont know .
The same media announces a great Tory revival , aye ok I think the term is the devil is in the detail.
The media hold all the cards for now, but we hold the ability through education of the History of this country , not the English version of our History .
The first thing the media will proclaim is SNP brainwashing and indoctrination , well name any country on the planet whose people dont know their own history , OOPS one comes to mind us Scotland 300 years of a version of Scottish History with the relevant bits removed , for our own good and with the best of intentions to promote peace and harmony, Aye f/n right .
Hey Rev
Come for a tour round Scotland – plenty of places to stay.
I did not like Nicola posing with the SUN but anybody who claims that it affected their vote is a first order, unreliable, unstable zoomer who will always find a way to disrupt a positive process that doesn’t pander enough to the big ego that is so painfully squeezed into their wrteched, malfunctioning little excuse of a brain.
Ohhh, they’re going to hate you even more for this. Deep down they probably know it’s true though. Great piece.
When I think about I probably despise ‘The Sun’ less than I despise ‘The Telegraph’ ‘The Scotsman’ ‘The Herald’ ‘The Times’ & the BBC.
I don’t care that Nicola posed with a copy of The Sun but I would have if she had posed with a copy of The Scotsman.
If you are not a communist at 16 there is something wrong with your heart.
If you are still one at 20 there is something wrong with your head.
…and if you are a Tory you are on the wrong site.
I don’t want the right wing politics of the UK to be replaced by far left politics. I don’t think I am alone in seeking a left of centre country with a fair sociey. I’m happy to have a far left and a far right representation but prefer the many shades in between that will probably emerge.
(ps I didn’t consider “New Labour” left of centre. I’m thinking more like the Labour Party before that one.)
Oh dear me, how embarrassing. I’ve posted previously “‘tinternet is not a write only medium” and been guilty myself, fortunately the Rev in a moment of unusual kindness removed both my comments.
Uh, yes, having read the article I totally agree. I’d go a bit further, it’s not just the last 18 months the left has been allowed to make all the running, it was through the Indy Ref as well. Yes, Labour had to be broken, but a lot of people were put off by the idea that an Indy Scotland would be hard left, when at heart it’s just a bit left of centre.
This is indeed an article that had to be written.
I think most people who read the sun do so for entertainment rather than news.
Is there any research out there on this kind of subject ?
I see Johann and Ken McIntosh are being suggested for presiding officer.
Not two names I thought would be put forward.
Enjoy your well earned holiday Stuart.
Around the world in 80 days perhaps ?
The Sun’s version of events seems to be that they, willingly or not, accepted as gospel the police version of events. Completely ignoring the fact that they in no way exonerated the police or relieved them of any responsibility for their failure in their duty to control the crowd.
That the Sun have actually apologised is kind of telling about the hardline nature of the radical left. The same kind of political agitators seen elsewhere. These are the fuckers who’d have you against a wall and shot.
If that wasn’t bad, I briefly saw an article in the Daily Record from a Celtic fan moaning about being treated as some kind of criminal because they’d turned up late and were refused entry. Makes sense in that it’s the police’s job to prevent the rushing in at the tail end that contributed to Hillsborough. In that case though it’s a case of the police not even keeping track of how many had gone in each gate. Unionist rag giving air to a moan about the police acting on experience in preventing a repeat of the failing of another force and taking into account Ibrox.
Some of the local sunday rags were putting forward an alternative explanation as to why the SNP “lost” the election. They say it’s all down to Named Person. Might be a grain of truth as I finally snapped at one of my friends on facebook after she posted for the umpteenth time a piece of crap from No2NP. Might have been part of the deliberate targeting of the female vote.
No doubt if the SNP capitulate entirely on that they’ll find some other supposed reason for the loss of support.
The real reason though is that the majority in 2011 was the result of freakish good luck. Better results in the FPTP seats. Just the same as Davidson is benefiting from.
A masterclass.
We need to start building Indy friendly institutions so that Indy thinking becomes the norm.
Well said that man
Two branches of the RBS closing their doors in my county, “Better Together”?
Have a nice break Rev.nobody deserves it more than you after all you’ve done.
This article is spot on as a statement of where we are atm.
All I gotta add is that Rise/Bella anti-SNP/WOS shit slinging with a’don’t vote SNP’ thrown in was termed as necessary critisism of a too powerful SNP needing a kick in the balls.
Do me a fucking favour.
Seems like we’ve all to forgive and forget(forgot fallen Rise already-not too difficult is it?)and buddy up for the good of the YES family.
Well for my part Rise can fuck right off and I really didn’t think I’d ever say something like that.
When the chips were down Rise and Bella and others showed their real priority- their own limited pointless ego’s.
Indy wasn’t considered inportant enough for those arseholes.
Hopefully Real Independence minded people will not be so manipulated for Indyref2 cos thats coming down the line like a runaway train.
We need to prepare for it now.
And as for the Greens they’re right now the greatest thing since sliced bread(organic of course).
63 SNP+6 GREENS= 69.
NOW THERE’S A NICE NUMBER IN HOLYROOD.
NOT LONG NOW.
Yes, this definitely needed to be said. If anyone was going to draw a line under recent events/conversations, then by god I’m glad it was you!
Still, all talk of holidays is always depressing..means I’ll defo have to get other stuff done instead of checking out this page regularly. :{
West coast is nice in the summer, just don’t be a stranger..ya hear 😀
@Clootie
“If you are not a communist at 16 there is something wrong with your heart.If you are still one at 20 there is something wrong with your head.”
Being on the wrong side of 21 I don’t have the energy to be radical. 🙂
Thanks for everything, enjoy your break you deserve it
the pursuit of independence, a goal tantalisingly within sight
And also categorically and unequivocally off the table for at least half a decade?
Agree with most of this although complaining about Donald Trump is always a good thing. If he becomes President it will be a world-wide hobby.
Enjoy your break. Soon the Local election battles will begin. Expect a bunker mentality at Tammany Hall.
Now with some insight on this threat and spleens being vented on the previous thread can we get back to focusing on the big picture again INDEPENDENCE FIRST LAST & ALWAYS.
Ian Brotherhood mooted a Wings getogther some time ago,. Tam Jardine again made the suggestion last nite , lets get ah chin waggling session sorted ,they,re,s a wide diverse eclectic representation of all political views on Wings & about time we as a Body put that to the test. Im well aware that Wings over Scotland isent exceptable to a lot of people in the Indy movement ,but we have a duty to inform people & where we can heal wounds we do that also.
‘the left’s equivalent of a Katie Hopkins article’
I love that! It’s pure poetry! I do wish I could write like Stu infact I wish I could string a sentence together. However I won’t let put me off posting my views.
‘Glasgow Kelvin and Edinburgh Central, both well-to-do bohemian enclaves’
That’s interesting! I wonder if the fact that both these constituencies are jam packed with students influenced their decision.
The Ruth Davidson NO party didn’t do very well in Glasgow Kelvin so perhaps it wasn’t all the RUK students in Central Edinburgh who gave their votes to the ‘Ruth NO Party’ it must have been all the voters who wanted an end to the Named Person Act, more college places & No referendum.
It looks as if they are not going to get what they want re the ‘Named Person Act’
The problem with the more college places could be solved quite simply. Just quit calling all the colleges ‘universities’ and hey presto problem solved unless what the ‘Ruth NO Party’ want is more part-time college classes in flower arranging & Great British Baking.
Carolyn Leckie puts the election results into perspective in the National & appeals for the Yessers to unite, well! not all the Yessers of course. Tommy Sheridan’s not mentioned! 🙂
Have a good holiday Stu, & watch your back, we need U M8.
dakk says:
9 May, 2016 at 1:30 pm
Enjoy your well earned holiday Stuart.
Around the world in 80 days perhaps ?
Ruby reples
I got the impression from his Twitter account that he might be doing that in the supermarket.
You know me ronnie anderson I’m always up for a bit of heeling.
It is ironic that Marx warned against the inherant dangers of a rigorous adherence to ideology, in his “German Ideology”.
Thank you for this article, hope you have a nice break.
Dear Rev
Vintage analysis, the best you have written , I
disagree with many of your views , but respect your respect of democracy and fair play . your patience , neve r more evident in last few days , when many of your loyal readership , struggle to understand the D’hondt system and what PR democracy means .
“The Sun (both editions) also has a deeply hostile attitude towards benefits recipients, but once again that’s something it has in common both with most other newspapers (including the supposedly left-wing Mirror, which is as happy as anyone else to run stories about “scroungers”) and the general public, particularly the working class.
“Support for welfare spending on the poor has consistently declined over the past three decades, with this decline in support being particularly pronounced amongst Labour Party supporters, and the young (that is, those aged 18-34).”
In a nutshell , yet due to the preponderance of the “far left ” on the “yes ” campaign , every argument revolved round “no more Tories , Bedroom Tax , Food banks ”
Which went down well in the hardened areas of economic deprivation (Glasgow and Dundee ) where increased benefit spending will suit them fine .
Yet in any other area of Scotland the fear of being stuck in a country where “Cant work wont work ” is rewarded .
That was the “fear ” many “No” voters had , the feeling that Scotland was stepping back to the 1970’s , where Trade Unions ruled unbridled .
When you are a self employed courier driver in Bathgate ,paying a mortgage , you don’t have much sympathy for your neighbors , on full time benefits , they have made a lifestyle choice .
Its from the self employed , the one who choose to work , as best they can (average take home 11k a year in Scotland )
Thats where the Tory vote is coming from .
OT
Taking a break? Take it in Scotland!
Hostels ain’t what they used to be, they’re far better. The Independents usually provide free wifi and tee and coffee, even hot chocolate in some. The bigger the dorm the cheaper it is. A YHA membership card is valid in Scotland and vice versa with the SYHA. Saves you £3 a night, for an SYHA year card for £15 now. The SYHA have now finally moved to free wifi, but you need your own milk, and mostly your own tea and coffee. They’ve cut down on beds in dorms to make them more roomy, and the dreaded bed sleeping-bag is a thing of the past. A lot probably all SYHA can provide frozen meals if you’re lazy.
Most hostels / bunkhouses even provide two pillows as standard rather than having to ask for a second one, and most have upgraded their pillows from the totally flattened things they used to have. This time of year there’s plenty space during the week as long as avoiding bank holidays.
Camp-sites are suffering the last 2 or 3 years, too wet and cold. But that means there’s always spaces, and many now have pods or hobbits, or lodges. I don’t use B&Bs, too expensive and last I tried they still want to keep this ridiculous single supplement going – and some prefer an empty room to a negotiated cheaper price. Can be worth phoning though. But some hotels you can get amazing deals if you talk to the manager, even some of the fancy ones. Depends if they have tour buses in.
Oh, this time of year it’s worth trying for a static for one night, can cost between £20 and £30, and you can have it all for yourself.
That was tourist information from therealvisitscotland.
Jim Sillars promoting the relaunch of the YES campaign in the summer.
Extolling the % of the vote to SNP and refuting Ruthie’s claim that independence is on the back burner.
Funny old world init!
Can’t post archive link as on my tablet. Baby sitting not in my own house.
In both Glasgow Southside and Glasgow Pollock the turnout was less than 50%, and both seats were won by high profile SNP politicians: Nicola and Humza, respetively.
I’m happy we did well in those two seats. Got the lion’s share of the vote in both seats. But, there’s clearly loads of folks not voting there, and as one who lives in thon area, it’s about as working class an area as it gets. My point is, and i could be wrong, but, you’d think there were thousands of possible votes out there for Rise and Solidarity.
If they’re speaking for the working class, the disaffected, well there’s plenty of both in Govan, Ibrox, Govanhill etc…maybe the Rise activists and high heid yins were barking up the wrong trees or singing the wrong songs in the wrong places. Maybe they didn’t have that Barton Fink Feeling. Or mibbe they did and that was the problem. Beware the smell of fish.
All well and good having a collumn in The National, but who reads The National? No many folks on the 14th floor would be my guesss. Nobody from Rise chapped my door. I’m not smart enough to know what’s better or best, trying to change the minds of someone who is going to vote (SNP), or trying to get the vote of someone who intends to ‘gie it a miss’. One group is a damn sight bigger than the other though.
At some point, if we’re to set this country free, we’ll have to sing from the same hymn sheet, not the whole hymnary of course, but the sermon must have some consensus.
Great piece, and I agree 100%.
This needed saying from my point of view too, and this piece sets it out logically.
As someone who hates the Sun and Record, I shrugged at Nicola holding it, knowing it was an act of pragmatism, something those who profess to want Indy, cant grasp.
That picture was used as a stick to beat SNP supporters, by the fringe groups, and the No contingent.
Out on social media, the fringe groups were frequently on the same side as No voters, but they couldn’t see they were useful tools.
Now I’m reading on some of these sites that we have a minority gov’t due to SNPx2.
The stupidity never stops, and it is wearing.
@Fred and others including me
I’m actually wondering whether we should unite at all. After all for the Devolution campaign the only thing Labour, LibDems, SNP, Greens and others had in common was wanting Devolution.
Perhaps friendly enmity isn’t a bad thing?
I nearly didn’t read the article because of the headline
‘The separation of goals’ I thought it might be about football!
However I did read it and found it interesting.
What I have been wondering about for the last couple of days is if it is necessary for there to be only one YES movement. Any reason why there couldn’t be separate YES movements.
I wonder if the Better Together parties will join together again in IndyRef2 or will Gordon Brown’s idea of having a separate movement be more popular this time around?
Have a good break Stu. Enjoy!
Smacznego!
Bon appetit!
Bon appetito!
¡Que aproveche!
chia?h khì!
Please wake me up when we get another chance for indyref 2. I need to get on with my life 🙂 peace, love & light
The Sun is a truly awful paper, run by awful people, actually its hard to find a decent paper with “open” features and essays. I was disappointed to see our great and good being pictured with it. I would like to think the electorate would see past this. The total vote for yes in last weeks election might be perceived as having only nudged the cause of yes on by a couple of points. There is still much to do!
@HandandShrimp
would like to have seen Malcolm Chisholm of the UK Labour party in Scotland as Presiding officer,
but i think he seen/saw the annihilation of the UK Labour party in Scotland coming and got out of dodge asap,
Jenny Marra seems to be a well liked politician by all the members,and does not seem to do much in the parliament so gee her the job.
Well said Stuart!
Well lets hope that’s a lesson learned, Radical Left please keep your mouth shut until Indy is achieved.
I don’t know how many times I tweeted to them they will hurt the cause splitting the vote.
It tells me they are not up for Indy the way the rest of us are or they wouldn’t even think about hurting the cause by splitting the vote, so please radical left, shut the fuck up until Indy has been achieved.
The people I know who belong to RISE are really nice people. Perhaps a bit over optimistic about what they are likely to achieve and misguided about how to achieve their aims.
Thankfully, they are few in number and therefore are unlikely to delay or damage the cause of independence.
IMHO, rigid adherance to ideology, is essentially the denial of reality.
link to zbi.ee
@call me dave
I wish Sillars would go the whole hog and join RISE full time. Some of what he says is good, but shouldn’t come as being reported from an SNP anything.
@ CameronB You do jest about the Particulate being the Rev. The Rev will be fitting Saloon doors on this site, you had better watch oot .lol
@ Paula Rose yes Ms Rose I am aware of your version’s of Heeling, but you,ll no be getting me doon yer dungeon, the Chaise Longue will do me nicely , one half sugar in ma coffee please & dispence wie the saucer.
Fact is, there isn’t an SNP policy I disagree with:
NHI; bus passes; no tuition fees; nursery hours extension: support for small businesses; renewable energy development; purchase of Prestwick airport; European Union; NATO; anti-Trident.I consider the SNP leadership to be pragmatic, and not driven by dogma.
Enjoy your break Rev. I’m for the Yes campaign “revving up” this summer. There’s work to be done.
Sorry O/T What’s happened to Lesley-Anne? She’s gone very quiet.
I thought in the run up to the election she was busy out doing her bit, so didn’t think too much of it. I know she will be inconsolable at wee fluffy getting into Holyrood, but where are you L-A? I really hope that you are okay.
@ HandandShrimp says at 1:30 pm ….”I see Johann and Ken McIntosh are being suggested for presiding officer. Not two names I thought would be put forward.”
Aw Naw. Don’t tell me that we’re going to have to suffer having Lamont at the forefront of embarrassing Scotland for another 4 years or so. On the otherhand that’ll probably result in another few thousand Labourites joining the Independence movement.
………………………………………………….
@ yesindyref2 says at 2:00 pm …. ”Taking a break? Take it in Scotland!
”Hostels ain’t what they used to be, they’re far better. The Independents usually provide free wifi and tee and coffee, even hot chocolate in some. The bigger the dorm the cheaper it is. A YHA membership card is valid in Scotland and vice versa with the SYHA. Saves you £3 a night, for an SYHA year card for £15 now. The SYHA have now finally moved to free wifi, but you need your own milk, and mostly your own tea and coffee. They’ve cut down on beds in dorms to make them more roomy, and the dreaded bed sleeping-bag is a thing of the past. A lot probably all SYHA can provide frozen meals if you’re lazy.
Most hostels / bunkhouses even provide two pillows as standard rather than having to ask for a second one, and most have upgraded their pillows from the totally flattened things they used to have. This time of year there’s plenty space during the week as long as avoiding bank holidays.
Camp-sites are suffering the last 2 or 3 years, too wet and cold. But that means there’s always spaces, and many now have pods or hobbits, or lodges. I don’t use B&Bs, too expensive and last I tried they still want to keep this ridiculous single supplement going – and some prefer an empty room to a negotiated cheaper price. Can be worth phoning though. But some hotels you can get amazing deals if you talk to the manager, even some of the fancy ones. Depends if they have tour buses in. Oh, this time of year it’s worth trying for a static for one night, can cost between £20 and £30, and you can have it all for yourself. That was tourist information from therealvisitscotland.”
GREAT piece of advertising … promoting Scotland …. yesindyref2 …. but I was thinking more along the lines of us fundraising to sent Stu on a first class World cruise whereby they provide tea and coffee and a second plump pillow. It’s his choice right enough, lol.
@Marie I was thinking the same thing over the weekend. I hope she is okay too. 🙂
Pop your head in and say hello Lesley-Anne.
@ Ruby
As an ex-employee of Glasgow University and the parent of an Edinburgh graduate, I don’t think the two can be compared like that.
I haven’t been able to find figures, but my feeling is that the number of rUK students is vastly higher at Edinburgh. Glasgow students are far more likely to “live at home” (not necessarily in Glasgow) and commute.
Although both are highly regarded, Edinburgh still has snob-value (though not as much as St Andrews) and I’ve certainly encountered plenty of Hooray Henrys – maybe they are just louder and more conspicuous. The West End of Glasgow is no longer fertile ground for Tories (though it was the last Tory Westminster seat in the city to fall, in 1982) – dare I say that it is trendy lefty? Patrick Harvie came second with a far higher percentage of the vote than Alison Johnstone.
(I’m disappointed that I can’t find details, because I could be quite wrong.)
@Christian Schmidt
“But let’s just assumed the Greens did take votes from the SNP, let’s do some number crunching. Say the Green would have got the customary 4%, and the SNP list vote would not have fallen, would there any more SNP MSPs? Any more independence-supporting MSPs?”
———–
Christian – The Tories have pretty much stated they don’t accept Green votes as a mandate for another referendum. So it wouldn’t have mattered if there were another 10 of them. They didn’t have strong enough support for independence in their manifesto, and we all know it isn’t their main reason to exist.
Around half their vote would have been SNP supporters fooled into voting tactically. The real problem with the RISE/GREEN tactical voting agenda wasn’t the numbers they took off the SNP. It was the widespread feeling of complacency – helped by both old and new media, spreading the news that SNP seats were safe because of 50% polling figures.
That was obviously bullshit.
These figures were NATION-WIDE and didn’t account for lower support for the SNP in many areas, especially rural and wealthy areas.
Some of the Edinburgh seats for example were three-way splits where the SNP vote was only in the 30’s. Only previously won because the Tory/Lab/Lib-Dem was split.
As soon as the election became ALL about the constitution and a second referendum, all these seats were vulnerable to unionist tactical voting.
It’s true that the SNP vote went up compared to 2011, but it didn’t reach the levels seen at last years general election. 450,000 SNP voters stayed at home, partly due to voters falling off the electoral register, but no doubt also due to a feeling of complacency that it was in the bag.
The SNP certainly did everything they could to stop the complacency, that’s for sure. Hopefully lessons will be learnt.
o/t the work and pensions minister right now is defending food banks i wonder if ruth the mooth will support this Tory policy of making food banks a permanent fixture and take it to its logical conclusion and privatise them with the logo food banks r/us , what an opportunity such vision and enterprise .
Big Jock
The majority was lost because half the left wing yes voters didnae get aff their backsides to vote. Who’s fault is that? I include Dumbarton and North East Fife.
which hotbed of left wing voters in nef are you talking about? cupar, st andrews, pittenweem, falkand???
different constituencies have different demographics
I hear Catalonia is a great place to visit.
I’ve always struggled to hear the soft or shrieking tones of a Scottish accent in the centre of Edinburgh. The well spoken Scots are very discreet. Edinburgh Uni is a great place to go for your middle class English who might not have got into Oxbridge.
And over the last 150 or so years the Royal Buroughs of Marchmont and Morningside have been very welcoming of our upper middle and middle class English cousins and God bless em. Roots have been laid down in Dean Village and Mayfield, Queen Street and Dundas Street and Stockbridge and Comely Bank welcomes comely lads and lassies, who enjoy our Scottish Culture as they toast to the queen or walk to the nearest gallery.
And the locals have found kindred spirits, to and from their banking jobs, or meetings in the deli…Ya or Yes, but never aye, chin chin, toodle pip.
Love both cities, lived in both for several years, but chalk and cheese they are. Until you get halfway down Leith walk or take the pilgrimage to Muirhouse or Niddrie.
Papko. 2.00
‘Its from the self employed , the one who choose to work , as best they can (average take home 11k a year in Scotland )
Thats where the Tory vote is coming from .’
I know several teachers and other public sector workers who hire poorly paid self employed cleaners to clean their houses.
The former vote Labour and the latter Tory.
The obsession with endlessly increasing public sector spending is a bit bogus in my opinion.Where does the money actually go and who are the main beneficiaries ?
crazycat
I was thinking about the mock referendum that was held in Glasgow Uni during the ref. where RUK students voted NO.
I suppose it will depend on where the students halls of residence are.
I know there was one in Park Circus next door to Michelle Mone which she complained about. Not sure if that comes under the Kelvin constituency or not.
There seems to be student accomodation opening up all the place in central Edinburgh. They look pretty luxurious so I can’t imagine they are cheap. There are two new ones in Holyrood Road and another in Calton Road.
@crazycat
@Ruby
With the exception of Dundee all the east coast Unis have more than their share of ‘Yahs’.
Aberdeen, through their Land Economy course attracts a substantial amount of Landowners’ offspring to manage Daddy’s estate. St Andrews and Edinburgh attract a fair few Oxbridge rejects.
The more rUK students they have then I would agree, the more who vote Tory. I would also agree there are far more at home students in Glasgow than Edinburgh. St Andrews almost doubles in size during term time with incoming students.
I have a son at Edinburgh just now and the place is hoaching with Tories who are quite open about it.
ronnie anderson
I thought that post hadn’t gotten through. 🙂
The latest Brexit poll of the whole UK on the 11th May is 45% leave and 44% stay. Not sure where the other 1% went! If we take out the Scottish sample which is a guess of say 2% in favour of stay. Leave may have a 3 or 4% lead here for RUK only.
In any case I think we are looking at a narrow stay or leave result by 3% or less. Scotland is looking to vote 64% stay with 10% of voters.
So we can hold England to the EU against it’s will. They may demand a referendum on the UK, who knows how they will react. The other scenario is they RUK leave and we vote stay. It’s going to lead to a referendum for us. Either way no side is going to soar ahead, so one of these two scenarios look like happening. Is Cameron going to break up the UK. Will it be his legacy.
Stu,get yourself down the Somerset beach for a week or longer,
deck chair ,sannies,coolbox full of fruit ciders,music and a couple of trashy books (harry potter?),
stay away from twitter,blogs,newspapers,football pish,and anyone with an interest in politics,
and then back to plan on expanding Wings (more/any staff advertising, not just politics take on the Establishment at its core and expose the real power in UK/Scotland,
hope the sun shines anywhere you go.
@ CameronB Ha Ha it did & he,s goat ah downer on critics the noo bit ah widnae clipe on ye lol.
Severin Carrell of rancid The Graun was sweaty and shifty yesterday chatting SNP bad with sweaty and shifty Gordon Brewer but it did seem to be the start of an all new and exciting Britnat vote UKOK or else Guardian campaign too
I lie. Its not. Same shit different phoney lefty SNP bad day at the Graun.
JK Rowling is not amused. Its all for your own good, silly little scotland region.
link to archive.is
McGarry withdrew from the SNP whip last November after revelations linking her to an allegation that tens of thousands of pounds in donations may be missing from Women for Independence, the campaign group she helped found. She denies any wrongdoing and the police investigation is continuing.
In January, McGarry prompted another Twitter controversy after she accused JK Rowling of bullying, causing the Harry Potter author to threaten legal proceedings.”
@Petra OT
That was of course aimed at those with a smaller budget, and on their / our own. Sounds like I’m knocking B&Bs, but they are of very qood quailty, and the last couple of years there’s been vacancies even in the likes of Fort William in the mad fortnight at 6 in the evening as I’m driving through, which makes it easier for casual touring such as the continentals like to do.
Scotland is open for business, come all ye!
MJT – Central Edinburgh is not cosmopolitan as some like to describe it (Not You).
It’s actually become less cosmopolitan, as it is overun with Ya Ya’s like JK Rowling etc. The real Edinburgh folk are too polite to say, but it must drive them nuts that their city is now like Welyn Garden rather than Princes Gardens.
The English abroad tend to take their country with them, even more so when they think Edinburgh is part of Greater London. They want all the benefits of living here cheaper mansions, better NHS, free Education and free prescriptions. But ask them to vote for Scotland and they thump you with a Union Jack.
Yea, well fuck normal people then. Who wants to share a country with them anyway?
Great article Stu and needed saying.
Have a great break and come back refreshed and raring to go.
I’ll miss you!
O/T
The Rev taking a wee bit of time out. As I don’t have a spare bedroom, and therefore can’t be accused of having my own agenda, I’ll swallow what many here are thinking and start a wee conversation – I’m sure there are good Wingers who’d love to have a house guest for a couple days, allowing said guest access to wifi and some freedom to explore their local attractions. Then an evening, shipping a wee dram, maybe a fireside, putting the world to rights.
Think about it Stuart, a wee break, amongst like-hearted should would also shore up spirits that might need it. A spring-cleaning of the soul.
I invite offers from Wingers – why should the Rev recharge himself in your own location? Fait vos jeux.
(Stands back from the blue touch-paper)
@ Ruby
I’ve lost track of the constituency boundaries in Glasgow now that I don’t live there – they keep changing them too!
A few years ago I watched fancy new halls being built at the edge of the Meadows, which will be near the boundary between South and Central; the flat in Buccleuch Street I used to visit was definitely in Central (Holyrood), but parts of the Meadows are in South for Westminster.
I had a lengthy argument at a Yes stall in the Meadows with 2 English students, who admitted they would go back south after graduating, but who were No because they wanted Labour to still be able to win at Westminster. In vain did I point out the statistics about not needing Scottish votes for that.
They were also adamant that there would be no Brexit (a referendum was just a political football at that time). Despite being Labour, they were extremely posh. Fortunately(?), so am I, so we could speak the same language – but I didn’t convince them.
Ediburgh Central voted SNP in 2011
Marco Biagi was the MSP
prior to that it was Sarah Boyack.
Do you think the Referendum has changed things vis a vis how say RUK students would vote?
Perhaps prior to the IndyRef they didn’t bother to vote.
Did JK Rowling vote for Ruth?????
What I really like is people who have to say “FACT: assertion”. It’s great, and very handy. You always know it’s unlikely to actually be a FACT, but an opinion. Putting “FACT:” actually weakens the argument.
Here’s one I have ready for the mathematically minded.
“FACT: 8 + 8 = 16. Always.”
Well, no actually, in the hexidecimal system 8 + 8 = 10. And in the octal system it’s not a valid sum as there is no number “8”.
“FACT: 8 + 8 = 16 in the decimal system”. Probably true 🙂
EUAN MCCOLM:
Scottish Labour’s best – perhaps its only – chance of survival is to be ready to capitalise on an SNP slump that might never come.
But if the party dies waiting for it, we shouldn’t be surprised.
link to archive.is
There was a J. McTernan article too but it’s gone now… 🙁
Basically labour made three mistakes…four if you count them not listening to him 🙂
————————————————————-
THE SNP will not push for one of its MSPs to become the next Presiding Officer – as the party still hopes to achieve an overall majority at Holyrood in the coming parliament.
link to archive.is
Herald Poll on indy ref2 Was at 3+:1 for Aye bring it on!
Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m sure you will!) but it seems to me that the SNP did a good job at getting their vote out but the Tories did better. I think that happened because they were able to get people who normally don’t vote in Scottish elections to vote in this one. How? By scaring the bejesus out of people that this was like another Indy referendum. Look at their election materials – the union is under threat, got to stop the SNP, no more referendums…on and on it went. These are the same people who turned out to defeat us in indyref1, no voters. And not just Tories but no voters in general. That’s why they didn’t mention that they were Tories on their literature. Not just to avoid the toxic brand but also to appeal to ALL no voters. A pretty smart if desparate strategy. Most Tories don’t give a flying f**k about the Scottish parliament. They see it as an irrelevance, a mickey mouse parliament. They look south to their Mecca at Westminster so they don’t normally vote in Scottish GEs. But they came out for this phoney indyref2.
Ah…but the law of unintended consequences applies here I think. The Tories are still deeply unpopular AND they are the government in London. The SNP is now in the most enviable position of being at once a party of government while simultaneously a party of opposition! They’re going to have lots of fun with that. They’ve almost got a majority for virtually all their policies including another referendum – the Greens must support that and I can’t very well see how they can avoid it. But at the same time they can chose not to implement some things and blame it on their lack of a majority. So, Scotland gets another 5 years of competent government and quite possibly another 5 after that.The SNP can pursue their goal of persuading more people to support independence, with our help of course, and call the referendum at the most opportune time. This situation takes the pressure off the SNP to call a referendum before we’re ready.
Meanwhile, the Tories will continue to bang on about referendums and the constitution north and south of the border which are the SNP’s specialist subjects. AND we get to watch, from a relatively safe distance, the self immolation of both the Tory (post EU ref) and Labour parties in Westminster.
Truly,the SNP must be the most jammy political party in the history of world jamminess!
There should be a residential qualificatiion put on any Referendum 2/3 years. Although there will be more Scottish students at University now they can get full grant funding. Less money should be put into educating students from elsewhere. Who still don’t pay the full cost. Universities are awash with cash. So much money they don’t know what to do with, according to people who work in University. Glass libraries etc. When more funding is needed at first start level. Nursery/primary and College, and for additional needs. Getting done class sizes/extra help and adequate training in additional needs.
Superb stuff Rev. Needed saying.
The vote came out in the same proportion as the Referendum. There is a difference at a Referendum. People who support no political Party come out to vote. 55% turnout GE. 85% Referendum. Totally different voting system The Unionist vote stagnated. The independence vote increased.
Great read.
I’m a bit hung up on Edinburgh Central I’ll probably have to cool it as I might end up kicking the RUK students (by accident – Oh sorry!) when I see them in the supermarket.
Ruth only go 610 more votes in Edinburgh Central than the SNP. The Greens got 4644 votes so I’ll just content myself by thinking that all the students in Edinburgh Central voted Green. Ach bless!
Pro-Indy parties achieved 53% of the seats with 49.4% of the vote.
And we’re complaining?
Your article actually made me laugh and I found it quite bizarre in a humorous type of way. Firstly is there only 220,000 normal people? In fact a minority of people buy the sun, a majority no longer or never have bought a newspaper. The last poll I saw showed that support for the monarch hybrid in Scotland is at 50 percent by no means decisive.
Whilst you make a lot of fair points some of them as pointed out are bizarre. The comment by Sean O’connor is obviously bang out of order but does not reflect the left and in fact I would say solidarity have been very supportive of the SNP and the criticisms made have been reasonable and constructive in fact I and many other solidarity members only voted snp with the first vote because Tommy Sheridan persuaded us to. I agree the left has been demolished at this election to but I believe a lot of traditionally self confessed socialists probably voted snp both votes because they see snp as the vehicle for change so I would not day the left is dead as much as you may wish it.
However, overall I usually agree with your posts but this left yes spat business is a bit tiring although I understand your need to respond. I just wonder if you could do more yourself to build bridges? I mean it seemed a lot like a defence of the sun and it is a pretty horrendous paper of a horrendous media as you pointed out and none of them deserve defending. The sun will drop the SNP like a hat as soon as it suits them and I doubt it makes any difference their support. Before the election of Alex salmond as first minister their paper said if you vote SNP u might as well put Scotland head on a noose. This paper can not be trusted.
Absolutely spot on, Rev, and you articulate my thoughts almost exactly.
The problem with the ‘radical’ left, as always, is its petty elitism and its more-radical-than-thou manner. As you say, independence is tantalisingly within reach yet all they can do is squabble about ideological purity. It’s as though they can’t deal with the prospect of success and must pursue their traditional failure at all costs.
But at least they won’t have sold out!
Yes Ken, the Indy vote was up. We’re making progress. The Tories have shot their bolt and now they are in a much worse position than they were before. It’s scorched earth/bridge burning tactics. We have a unionist/nationalist parliament. Every issue will be seen through that prism. Every election ( council elections, by-elections, national elections) will be mini referendums for the forseeable future. It’s the new normal.
@Ruby
I feel the same way about Dumbarton. I’m looking at people in the street…
I think where anti SNP sentiment was strongest, they treated the election like a UK General election and people who did not usually vote in Scottish elections were mobilised.
I don’t think there are any more Tories or Lib Dems than before, they just were more motivated to vote perhaps due to the polarising of Unionism vs Nationalism.
I live in the blue belt at the bottom of Scotland. It is a rural area where a lot of folk from South of the border have moved into due to low house prices and better public services etc.
Some thoughts on why this area voted Tory:
1) Like many rural areas our Broadband is very poor or non existent. We therefore do not have easy access to Wings etc and many still rely on the MSM for their news.
2) Our TV is Border TV produced in England. We are not part of mainstream STV. This imho is a huge influence on the way this part of Scotland sees itself.
3) The SNP have neglected this part of Scotland, little investment apart from new Dumfries Hospital and Dalbeattie school and our transport infrastructure has not improved during the last 9 years and we rarely see any SNP initiatives down here.
4) Richard Lockhead has upset the farming folk and therefore all linked workers and trades by delaying the EU payments. I think farmers must register online to the new system but this is difficult without access to the internet.
5) The first call centre closed in the centralisation of the Police was the one in Dumfries. The closure of this local call centre is still a very sore point in this area and continues to be a major SNPBad on doorsteps.
Papko
I think you’ll find the majority of benefits are “In Work” benefits.
Btw, I was also a self-employed employer.
Excellent and thought provoking as usual. Précised version woiuld be “Scottish Electorate are not the politically engaged Social Democrats they claim to be to salve their consciences but in essence are content to let the neo-liberals get on with it as long as it’s the family from the next Estate living in B&B and using Food-Banks”.
Supported Indy first and get the levers to improve things for a long time but I’m in my 70s now with older grandchildren struggling, so the idea of using the levers we have or even forcing more to ‘greenly & sustainably’develop our way out of austerity is quite attractive.
It was only low number of voters who appeared to changed their second SNP vote. 105,316 out of a million+ Conned by the fraudster pollsters and MSM. However enough to make a significant different.
It appears SNP voters gave their second vote away but it appears no other voters gave their second vote to the SNP.
It will be interesting to see other Parties being held to account. On their ‘promises’.
@ 55% turnout at the Holyrood Election with a totally different electoral system. That is up from 40% at a HE.
What the Rev said.
Noo away and get yourself a bloody guid break in the sun, Stu. My god you deserve it, man.
Re-charge the batteries. We’ve five years of pish to filter.
ScottishPsyche
You’ve got Jackie I’ve got Ruth. 🙁
I think we should both go out and treat ourselves to something nice.
I might have fillet steak for dinner. I haven’t had clams for a long time I might have them too. Strawberries are nice at the moment I’ll cover them in chocolate & wash them down with a nice glass of champagne.
Emmmmm! I feel better already! 😉
Every time you look, it gets UKOK weirder out. Rancid The Graun wants ref 2, now!
link to archive.is
English nats at the Graun are a crazy UKOK breed. Having UKOK raged at us, “you lost, shut up, move on, SNP bad, Kez is a goddess,” for last say 18 months, they’ve flip into demand ref 2 now, flop.
If the all new and exciting Dugdale led SLabour are on the way back, BetterTogethering it with the tory party again might not work, after the last time, barely 18 months ago.
“Support the independence of the Guardian and our award-winning journalism £49 /year?”
No thanks:D
@John Young
I was thinking the same as I was driving through election day last week. The SNP Government need to make the whole borders area more included in Scotland. There was the Borders Railway which was a good initiative, but the planned upgrade to the A75 for instance can’t happen soon enough – and more.
I think it’s a similar story for Orkney and Shetland. They were left stranded with the Northlink Ferries fiasco, whereas if one of the Calmac fleet breaks down as oft occurred the last 2 / 3 years, ferries are shuffled around and do the job – even if people do grumble. RET is a great thing, on all west coast ferry crossings bar the council ones which now work out relatively expensive, but nothing said about Orkney and Shetland yet. The LibDems played that one – rightly – to the hilt.
And the A9 north of Inverness, improved a bit but still slow and dangerous in places. Not even on the plan yet as far as I’m aware, just the dualling up to Inverness. Some see the SNP as Central Belt concentrating. I can see why.
Re. student accommodation in Edinburgh. There are also two Edinburgh Uni halls going up in Buccleuch Street.
IMHO, Edinburgh Uni. exerts far to much influence within Edinburgh. It is a private company, after all.
I am not against development or ‘foreigners’ but I think these halls have the potential to adversely change the local characteristics and functionality of these locations.
Transient inhabitants do not constitute a sustainable and robust local community. Commercial power trumps the little guy again, I’m afraid.
Ruby.
Believe me Gin was the only answer on May 5th/6th (nice flavoury Gin from Scotland though)!
Hi Rev, Bit of a correction for you wrt “Top Gear” it actually got less viewers in Scotland than countryfile. I know you are not in touch with what men in Scotland want due to your female credentials and location in England but that is just the way it is. Tongue firmly in cheek, I await brickbats and hammers.
One more rancid The Graun total miss hit, its all Jeremy Corbyn’s fault you see
link to archive.is
Dr Rawnsley leaves out the only actual real opposition in his Scotland region, the tory led BBC media attack propaganda machine, as usual.
Does anyone else get really bad déjà vu reading London based politico wafflers like rancid The Grauns?
“Labour has crashed to its worst result in Scotland since 1910.
It has been supplanted by a resurgent Scottish Conservative party successfully bidding for the support of centrist, pro-union voters.
The Tories, not Labour, will now be the principal party of opposition, a role given additional importance because the SNP just fell short of securing a majority.
If there is a way back for Labour in Scotland, the evidence of these elections is that the route recommended by Mr Corbyn is not it.”
Its up to all the lovely BBC style Crichton Torquilesque propagandists now.
Cheers Rev. Clear and insightful. It’s fair to say that as time’s gone on over the last five years of the pre and post Indyref debate, my personal politics have been on a journey leftward. I’d be well and truly happy for Scotland to become a republic with a socialist flavour. However, I recognise that this is a debate for the post independence era and find it immensely frustrating that so many ‘radical left’ get so mired up in competitive Puritanism that they lose sight of the immediate goal. I was frankly suspicious of RISE from the very beginning and am quite amenable to the donning of aluminium headgear when discussing them.
That said, I do find the Sun an utterly despicable rag but as you state, it only takes a perusal of the Mail, Express or even the alleged ‘Quality’ Telegraph FFS, to see there’s little between any of them today.
Whilst I’d like to see the Greens and whatever remains of Labour do the right thing andback Indy (whether that smug wee shite Greer will is a matter for debate), It’s clear to me that the SNP is the only reliable vehicle for the delivery of independence Also, living just on the ‘dark side of the Solway’ 😉 I agree utterly with John Young on why the South has gone Tory. It’s time the SG started making friends in the south. It’s a place I want to move to in due course but right now the infrastructure is shite and nothing but Brit propaganda is pumped into its living rooms.
I think the SNP needs to make the kind of efforts in D&G over the next five years that it has done to win over the former SLAB heartlands.
It’s a big ask but I feel it’s worth the effort and could be the difference between majority and minority in 2021.
@ In a mainly SNP area. The only thing that was raised was potholes and bus service.
yesindyref2 at 4.30pm. Agree that a major South of Scotland initiative is needed by the SNP. Perhaps something similar to the old Highlands and Islands Development Board.
This is a poor area where many locals struggle. There are no cities which seem to have money thrown at them. I thought the initiative by one of the SNP candidates to try to obtain City Status for Dumfries was an excellent initiative.
You are correct when you say many folk down here consider the SNP as a Central Belt Party.
I have ZERO doubt that the youth fuckwits from RISE are exactly the same breed as SLAB.
Look at the “journey” Darling et al took on their route from “solidarity comrade!” to ermine vermin.
Youthful naivety is common but anyone studying politics (or PPE) at uni is not naive. These scumbags are just following the same route all their erstwhile buddies in SLAB took – power, money & self-serving interests.
Admittedly Williamson is a special breed of idiot but thats not unusual if you look at SLAB over the last 30 years.
Remember the names because if the independence journey comes to a successful conclusion these fucktards will be spinning how much they did/believed in Scotland. Remember the names.
@ Countryfile doesn’t get much viewers.
@Onwards (2.44) says
Around half their (the Greens) vote would have been SNP supporters fooled into voting tactically.
Got any figures to back that up? I would think that half the Green vote would be people leaving SLab and the LibDems and looking for something leftish to vote for.
I agree that Students on a 4 year degree from the South or elsewhere, should not be able to determine the future of the country we live in.
This is madness!
I’m up to two folk today who have asked me how the election went and who won
Actually the second one was a party of four older folk out on their deck chairs taking in the sunshine
When I replied that the SNP had won by a mile they Grumphed and went quiet while one of them said “I thought it wiz that wee lesbian lassie thit wun”
I replied “NO” and went to the shops
Ken – Countryfile is a joke. Scotland makes up 1/3 of the UK landmass. Yet they spend 5% of the entire year visiting Scotland if we are lucky!
@Ruby 4:07
you have my deepest sympathy, it must be depressing to live in a Tory constituency! I live next to one and thats bad enough, I have to pass through it.
Feels like Ive gone back to the 80’s.
Rev Stu,
This is an excellent piece of writing. It nails the utter garbage that has been coming from the far left, especially recently. I bet lots of them have SKY telly – that doesn’t seem to bother them, what with it being Murdoch an all.
Anyway, have a holiday, but be careful where you go, I can just see the Daily Mail lurid headline,
‘Vile scotch separatist blogger Stuart Campbell goes on holiday…IN ENGLAND!!!!!’
Looks like we have a few more years of tosh to survive, but as the tortoise said to the hare, ‘slow and steady wins the race’.
Quite excellent article,
Rev Campbell.
It is BECAUSE the SNP is,
itself, so democratic,
that the Left are an echo-chamber
of frustration.
A period of silence sounds great….
….. …..
They, the Left and the Greens, should
look to post indy solutions.
We, from the ‘through the middle
political reality parties.
Or indeed those from none,
Keep one eye on the Tories
in all shapes and forms.
And one eye on the prize.
I’ll meet the Left when it is most effective.
That will be after independence.
As emphasised by others, there will always be colonial snipers and sneer merchants who think Scotland a small fragile province, and those who think we should be kept down and poor, even after self-governance reinstalled. That’s how they battered Scotland into going it alone on the Damien Scheme. They aim to do the same again.
For the moment you can only satirise them, or bat them away, for they keep saying the same thing over and over again every time they raise their heads above the parapet. The educated magazine editors are no different from the chronically narcissistic screaming trolls.
Here’s something to ponder:link to wp.me
O/T today I got HM Govt guide to why we’re all DOOMED if we leave the EU. War, pestilence, famine etc. I am voting Remain but if I was Leave I’d be fkin raging.
Excellent article Rev.
I am indifferent about the tabloids as i live my life without them if at all possible. However you make some excellent points that needed to be spelled out. I totally agree at your despair at the what seems like the easy manipulation of certain Yes voters by the MSM. It’s one thing for the less politicised general public to be played by the media into thinking the SNP are a radical left wing socialist party but politically active Yes voters or SNP supporters should know better. For the past 20 or 30 years they have evolved into being a social democratic party on the Northern European model. No overtly radical but quietly so in the British political landscape because they have ideals and yet they do not consider pragmatism a dirty word. Not being stuck in the tired old left , right argument has given the SNP a huge advantage over their rivals as they can plough a middle furrow deciding on policies on their merits “for Scotland” , not for what is best for any particular narrow power base or some outdated and failed ideology weather it is the idiocy of tory monetarism or the splitters of radical socialism.
Well done and have a great break ,and come back refreshed Rev. !!
I see that Toothy Moothy Roothy who ”wants a Parliament with teeth” ha ha! isn’t getting all her own way. They’ve started squabbling amongst themselves already with the Lib-dems and Labour knocking back her call for ”all opposition parties to unite in finding a common cause against the SNP.” Seems that the betterment of Scotland isn’t top of the Tory agenda at all and smacks of the despicable playground behaviour known as ‘ganging up’.
I don’t think she’s got the message yet that everyone knows that her party has critically damaged both the Lib-dems (through the coalition) and Labour (since Indyref) and that they’ll regard her and her Party as being pretty toxic (more toxic than the SNP?): Even more so the Unions and Labour supporters. Meaning that them showing any support for her will alienate thousands more of their supporters. And eh, Labour would have to be plain daft, totally masochistic or suffering from a form of mass psychosis if they continued to pally-wally along with her. In saying that maybe Labour are still intent on continuing on their kamikaze course. Time will tell.
Wee bully-boy Davidson another dictator in the making and to my mind her coming second with her, and her Westminster cronies (bosses), policies / behaviour being under the spotlight now is the best thing that could have happened for us.
link to heraldscotland.com
As said above we need to ensure those voting in Scotland live here. Further the need to be registered to pay tax here.
After the referendum and the survey reported on in the Daily Record I became a tad cautious about any poll carried out only in Scotland. I suspect there’s a fair few postal votes going about.
If the polls put the SNP over 50% take it with a massive pinch of salt. Same goes for the Greens.
I know this is O/T, but when do the ‘perks’ from the fundraiser get sent out?
John McTernan is a a political strategist and was Chief of Staff to Jim Murphy….
Aye right! Shurley schome mishtake 🙂
link to archive.is
It is not normal for protest parties
to have nearly all their potential
voters covered by such a large
singular alternative struggle.
It is unfortunate for all other
protest parties.
I do believe that the natural
order was stolen from Scotland
centuries ago. Depriving us of
much talent, and much progressive
dialogue.
The people are clever, delivering 14? years to the Nations cause.
Only independence can allow us to
restore a balance to our whole
fair-minded society.
A nation state, once again.
Being polite about I think he is talking through a hole in his arse. Williamson that is.
To blame a Sun Front Page for the loss of a theoretical majority from happening is just crass. I now find all of the British Press and Media loathsome in equal measure. I include the SH and the National in that and they both gave RISE etc more than a fair crack of the whip.
It also lets the SNP off the hook from a policy point of view. But hey they could have had a different set of policies and just maybe more folk would have voted on the day for them but it is all speculation. It also doesn’t ask if the SNP election campaign didn’t misfire in some ways.
Did he personally interview every single votes that voted Yes or would vote Yes, I don’t think so, maybe asking those who didn’t vote in the election as to why they didn’t vote would be a more productive use of his time if he can ever remove his head from his arse that is.
I am past caring who I might offend!
Radical socialism probably needs to be imposed! I don’t think any population has ever chosen it democratically.
Labour used to claim to be socialist, and their 1945 government was radical. However, only so far. The monarchy survived, the House of Lords survived, and there was no question of nationalisation of banks, shops or land.
Socialism implies that all means of production are in public/collective ownership.
Throughout Europe railways and electricity are typically state owned. Almost a consensus that this is right. Some public ownership of strategic sectors does not mean socialism.
I would class most socialism as actually social democracy. True socialism to me means almost complete state control.
This never was the objective of any mainstream party. However, there have always been those well out on the left who are undoubted socialists. The thing they have most in common, is that few will vote for them!
Petra @5.09 your link archived:
link to archive.is
Excellent article Rev.
I am indifferent about the tabloids as i live my life without them if at all possible.
However you make some excellent points that needed to be spelled out and youve done it briliantly. I totally agree at your despair at the what seems like the easy manipulation of certain Yes voters by the MSM. It’s one thing for the less politicised general public to be played by the media into thinking the SNP are a radical left wing socialist party but politically active Yes voters or SNP supporters should know better.
For the past 20 or 30 years they have evolved into being a social democratic party on the Northern European model. No overtly radical but quietly so in the British political landscape because they are effective , have ideals and yet they do not consider pragmatism a dirty word.
Not being stuck in the tired old left / right argument has given the SNP a huge advantage over their rivals as they can plough a middle furrow deciding on policies on their merits “for Scotland” not for what is best for any particular narrow power base or some outdated and failed ideology weather it is the idiocy of tory monetarism or the splitters of radical socialism.
Well done and have a great break ,and come back refreshed Rev. !!
Call me dave, here’s McTernan the ‘socialist’ (from Rev’s twitter) telling Ruth Davidson how to beat the SNP, in the Telegraph…he’s certainly putin’ it aboot the day in’t he?
They really are the Red Tories, and he exemplifies them completely.
link to archive.is
I agree with much of the article.
However, I will continue to vilify, ridicule and shout quite loudly against buying the Sun.
It has little to do with Hillsborough for me.
It is personal.
That rag traduced, lied and demonised myself and my fellow fire-fighters as “Baby-Killers” and “murderers” in the 70’s for having the temerity to try to gain a living wage and get our kids off benefits and free school meals.
They did such a hatchet job that an elderly lady who proclaimed herself as having been informed by the Sun, spat right in my face on a picket line. She was not alone….and the common denominator…apart from abject stupidity?
The fucking Sun.
I don’t forget and I don’t forgive.
No matter how popular it is….to me it is a fucking rag that needs to die.
Sort of off topic….but I wanted to make myself clear why I say what I say.
Bed and breakfast! You’re a mercenary bunch. Surely the rev should be able to tour Scotland gratis. There’s a spare room in my hoose any time.
This article alone is worth a free weeks stay with a bottle of malt thrown in.
Mr Williamson is of the opinion that because he believes something for any given reason then so must the general population. Quite narcisstic actually.
@Rab Dickson,
You guys don’t earn enough for the job you do. Firefighting is very dangerous and emotional
work.
Galamcennalath @ 5:15
The radical socialist/ runcible left?
The Khmer Rouge on Mogadon
Re. the Graun. The Scott Trust, which is supposed to ensure the Graun’s impartiality, has been converted to a limited company. The management of the Scott Trust Ltd. is up to it’s neck in HSBC”s role as international hub for financial irregularities. Fraud to you and me governor.
The Graun is only credible to the credulous and though he might talk the business, Sev’s a posing twat, IMHO. 🙂
link to en.wikipedia.org
@ Severin Carroll
How are you getting on with that introduction to semiotics?
From the Herald:
“How would you vote in a second Scottish independence referendum?
Scotland should be an independent country 79%
Scotland should remain part of the Union 21%“
Kevin’s a friend of mine, but he’s obviously been having too much of the wacky baccy.
All of the papers are cr*p, to use one of his politer expressions. Any Party would give up a few broon envelopes to get that backing of the Sun. He may remember many of oor auld comrades in alms pocketing the Rudolph coins for a bit of the old Tommy Knocking.
It was the sometimes Indy supporters on the schizoid North British left that were encouraged to split the 2nd vote by the other nasty meejah hacks.
Remember the 96!
Yes, that definitely needed saying, Stu.
In fact, I reckon it was the far-left rhetoric associated with indy which brought out all these “missing voters” to support the Tories in rural Scotland.
If people are already fearful about as big a change as independence, it doesn’t help to stoke their fears further with careless talk about socialist revolution.
Nail.
Head.
BANG!
@ Almannysbunnet that was rather my point 🙂
@HandandShrimp says: 9 May, 2016 at 1:30 pm:
“I see Johann and Ken McIntosh are being suggested for presiding officer”.
Looks rather like the other members want to shove them somewhere they would be, “oot o the road o the cairts”, as my old grandfather used to put it when he meant that someone needed placed out of harm’s way where they could do no serious damage.
Peter Lilley CON is a director of a private company hired to manage the votes in Scotland, including the Referendum.
“Idox has had a hand in providing count software, including postal vote management support, among other services, for elections since at least 2012.”
link to archive.is
Wings;telling it as it is.
Great article that needed to be written exactly the way it was written.
I agreed with every word.
Thank You Rev.
thanks to all for the link to Mc Torn arses , we’ll difficult to describe advice to action man in the telegraph , lost for words dear oh dear , anyway lets hope the advise is followed and we can sit back and enjoy the show , care in the community ffs , this guy should not be out unsupervised EVER .
Peter Lilley is an arch conservative…that’s interesting Capella, he’s a nasty piece of Tory work.
Just a quick question to anyone who was at the counts, did the postal ballots get mixed in with the polling booth ballots?
Is it just my screen reception missing lots of avatars? Been that way for days.
Anyhow, a passionate plea for common sense from Wings.
Here’s some thoughts on buying a degree: link to wp.me
G4jeepers,
The postal votes are validated separately (signatures cross-checked, etc.) then transferred to the count to be tallied with all the others.
OT
As the international press saw the Election result from a David Leask random sample:
link to archive.is
@yesindyref2
The Borders Railway is a pig in a poke. I don’t know anybody who wants it, and I don’t know anybody who believes it is ever going to pay its way. It’s an obscene amount of money to spend on a white elephant when the A7 is screaming out for an upgrade so you can actually pass an occasional vehicle now and again.
I heard the railway required the construction of 10,000 homes in the Borders before the figures stack up. At the average 2.4 children, that’s an influx of over 44,000 people where the existing population is 110,000, and it seems a bit of a con to embrace such an invasion when all we’re going to get from the deal is a sodding railway nobody is going to use.
Don’t get me started on the quality of construction of those 10,000 new homes. That’s another load of hot air and spiv economics the Borders doesn’t need.
If you want to get the Borders back on its feet, dual what you can of the A7, and send in the FBI to smash the corruption rackets and institutional nepotism which makes the Borders a butterfly killing jar for new business and has stifled economic regeneration for decades apart from the “lucky” few who skim off the cream for themselves. I wouldn’t spit on Scottish Enterprise if they were on fire, nor Scottish Borders Council, and their wider community of “chums”. It is rotten to core. I’d put them all in the dock, but maybe not in any Court anywhere in the Borders if you get my drift. I wasn’t kidding about the FBI.
Yeah. Build a railway right through to Carlise. It will make Hawick’s property market go ballistic as all the pensioners from Carlisle move North for free health care they’d have to pay for at home. That will really get the place back on its feet.
It will be the same old pish, aye, aye, loads of jobs for the locals. Aye, if your dues to the local mafia are up to date.
I couldn’t give a flying fuck about the railway, and don’t kid yourselves the SNP gives a flying fuck about the Borders.
Idox, snippets from that article Capella put up:
‘In a statement to shareholders, the firm said it also successfully provided “the majority of electoral services” for the 2014 Scottish referendum, saying that its systems managed the highest turnout in recent years for a major UK election.’
‘Montreal-based CGI and Idox won the £6.5 million contract to provide an electronic vote counting system for the 2017 local government elections in Scotland.’
“Such suppliers provide services including, for example, the printing of ballot papers and poll cards. All such contracts are awarded by the individual returning officers on the basis of what will provide the best value and quality with the interests of the voter always at the heart of all our activities and contracts.”
‘After one concerned person asked about the use of “Peter Lilley’s firm”, the Scottish Government responded: “The awarding of contracts to Idox, or other commercial companies, was a matter for individual counting officers to decide. The Scottish Government was not involved in this process.”
Yeah…I’m concerned alright.
@Robert J. Sutherland,
Thank you 😀
The second was when Scottish Labour believed the SNP spin that they were a left-wing party and tried to outflank the Nationalists on their left. The consequence was a commitment to raise taxes. This, in the context, of a Scotland in which the largest class are the middle class – the monthly paid, white-collar salariat. And in the face of a working class who have never evinced any interest in paying more tax.”
Why does Torygraph advisor Macternan leave out stuff like why should Scotland pay even more taxes than England for Gordon Brown’s, Alistair Darling’s and George Osborne’s ongoing disastrous toryboy-nomics??
Pump billions into the south east of teamGB for decades and wrack giant debt, thanks to end of boom and buster Crash Gordon, it all goes pop 2008, then toryboy’s austerity for the poor, socialism for the City, Labour Project Fear the life out of YES with their appalling economics, May 2016 swings in with red and blue toryboy world UKOK snivelling, come come Scotland, don’t be so selfish, start paying for SLabour’s all new socialist economic bollocks, you vile separatist ingrates.
Or something like that.
@ K1 – a bit suspicious isn’t it. Seeing film of ranks of staff hand counting ballots suggested the whole process was done by real people. But it looks like hackable computers are used.
People like Lilley are scary. Remember “I’ve got a little list” of benefit scroungers he was going to round up. The Tories will also be getting advice from the ghastly SIR Lynton Crosby.
link to en.wikipedia.org
al urquhar
Nah. Thatcher gave military assistance to the Nihilist Marxist Khmer Rouge, I don’t see Dishface doing the same for RISE. Though you never know…. 🙂
There will be a referendum before the end of this parliament and we’re going to win it by about 20%
because John McTernan says we’re definitely not
He’s never been right about anything
Breeks
You have obviously forgotton your tablets today.
Borders railway a success. Now if we could just sort out the cross rail issue in Glasgow could travel from South West Scotland to the east and North.
Yes I remember that sleaze ball well Capella, nasty him and Redwood at the time, one of my enduring memories from that period was a press conference where that bastard was basically singling out ‘single mothers’ as ‘benefit scroungers’…they have always wanted to crush those they have deemed ‘less than’.
As for this Idox business, it’s suspicious alright, ballot papers, y’mean the ones with no barcode, just flimsy pieces of paper? I remember I had three of them to cross for Yes that day. And the postal votes?
They have the contract for next year’s elections too! Naw, I’m no having this, I’ve never thought our referendum result was true, this just adds fuel to an already disputed issue. As for the ‘rumour’ from a couple of threads ago that a ballot box was opened with 600 Tory votes and no others…
Hmmm.
D’ye ever get the feeling you’re being had?
Aye.
“People’s Front of Judea”?
Well, right back at ya, Rev!
Your Scottish Greens attack article yesterday was barrel-scraping petulance of the first order, akin to a Torcuil Crichton shit-stir about some arcane point he wants to twist to highlight the “Nats’ hypocrisy”.
For someone who portrays himself and his site as “pro-independence” you’ve grown noticeably intolerant of any viewpoint but that of the hardliner SNP orthodoxy. Everyone else, it appears, is a dillettante at best or sabateur at worst.
Your attribution of loyalties is simplistic too. There are plenty of No voters who voted SNP in the constituency because of trust in the government and/or their local MSP- I know of at least a dozen in my acquaintance. Likewise there are plenty of Green voters who voted SNP 1 – and judging by the Green turnout in this constituency last year, those two groups alone were extremely significant in ensuring no less a figure than John Swinney didn’t have to fall back on a list seat. Just imagine they’d withheld that vote – Torcuil Crichton would be crowing from now till Xmas.
In other words the entire political landscape is more subtle and complex than your bludgeoning analysis permits. You’re so busy badmouthing SUPPORTERS of independence and indulging in crass caricatures that you appear to have forgotten the real job at hand: Building a strong and stable majority for Yes.
That means persuading former No voters. It’s one thing to advocate an SNP x 2 strategy; it’s another thing to blame the failure of that strategy on others with different but still pro-indy views. Frankly you’re losing credibility with every post, like a ranting street corner preacher who condemns everyone who is blind to the one true faith he espouses.
If you really think picking fights with politicians, parties and activists who have worked their backsides off for a Yes vote and a Yes supporting party is in any way constructive, then maybe you need to go for that break. Make it a long one and see, just for once, if you can come back and acknowledge you might have got it wrong.
Cheers for that Rev. needed to be said.
O/T
panamapapers.icij.org/blog/20160509-offshore-database-release.html
Released at 7 pm.
@ Capella says at 6:32 pm ….. ”Peter Lilley CON is a director of a private company hired to manage the votes in Scotland, including the Referendum.
“Idox has had a hand in providing count software, including postal vote management support, among other services, for elections since at least 2012.”
link to archive.is
Well, well well. Now isn’t that positively scary! Privatised voting company providing count software. Remember the guy in the US who explained how the software could be rigged and go TOTALLY undetected. Postal votes being counted days before the polling stations had closed which I had already been informed of. Forget about Davidson. Her Conservative comrade-in-arms Lilley must have known well beforehand how the postal vote result was panning out. Were the postal votes sent to England for scanning? Why no exit polls? The ONLY way discrepancies can be highlighted. Well done Tories you’re duping everyone left, right and centre. I’m not surprised that Idox when approached for comment ”did not respond.’’ Time for us to carry out an investigation into this Company such as who else is on the Board. Strange too that we’ve not heard a dickie bird about this up until now.
‘Concerns raised over senior Tory MP link to election count firm
A TORY MP is a director of a company that has become a major player in how elections are managed in Scotland, it has emerged.
Concerns have been raised with the Electoral Commission about the involvement with Idox of former Tory Cabinet minister Peter Lilley, who is a senior non-executive director……
Objectors have questioned the rationale of awarding contracts to Idox when it has links to one political party, and about the “creeping privatisation” of elections.
Lilley, who served as trade and industry secretary from July 1990 to April 1992, has been a paid non-executive director for 14 years, and received £35,000 in 2015 for his services.
He holds 533,000 shares: 111,300 are in a self-invested pension plan and 59,250 are held through various members of his family.
When appointed as a director, during the infancy of the firm, executives told shareholders he “brings with him a wealth of experience of central and local government, which we believe will be of considerable benefit to the group, especially as it seeks to achieve an increasingly strategic role with both local and central government”…..
Their team of experts include former Electoral Registration Officers who Idox said advise the UK’s central government on initiatives such as the Individual Electoral Registration…….
Highcock said: “Idox is one of a number of companies that supplies various support to returning officers across Scotland, and indeed the UK, as they deliver elections.
“Such suppliers provide services including, for example, the printing of ballot papers and poll cards. All such contracts are awarded by the individual returning officers on the basis of what will provide the best value and quality with the interests of the voter always at the heart of all our activities and contracts.”
The Electoral Commission produces advice in advance of the Scottish Parliament elections to prevent the undermining of confidence in the electoral process following “high-profile” electoral fraud cases.
After with CGI winning the contract to provide vote systems for the 2017 local government elections, Idox said that with its e-counting system, scanning ballot papers can be achieved in four hours and calculations take just minutes, “improving the accuracy and auditability of results”…….
The system to count paper ballots electronically is due to undergo a year of testing, before teams will be trained at every local authority.
During the 2015 General Election, a team from Idox helped deliver its postal vote management system (PVMS) in local authorities across Scotland. Company details show that work began almost two weeks before polling day, with staff arriving on-site to set up the system and meet temporary staff “employed to open and scan the postal vote statement and ballot papers”.
“The scale of this operation varied from one local authority to another. Some of the smaller ones had 8,000 voting packs to get through before election day, whereas sites like Glasgow (with an anticipated 66,000 packs) would sometimes process more than that in one day,” said one description of what happened.
Company data reveals that the system helps to ensure postal votes are authentic by comparing voters’ original postal vote application (PVA) with the postal vote statement (PVS). The software compares the two forms using two unique identifiers – signature and date of birth.
A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: “The administration of elections in Scotland is the responsibility of individual returning officers for each local authority, who award contracts for support services, such as the printing of ballot papers and poll cards, on the basis of what will provide the best value and quality, with the interests of the voter always taking precedence.”
Idox was approached for comment but did not respond.’
Alex Salmond’s speech to the EPC in Brussels today
link to alexsalmond.scot
Worth a read.
G4Jeepers, the postal votes were done before the other boxes started arriving. They6 have two stages. They are initially verified when they arrive in the month prior to the election where they are cross matched with the signature on the postal application form, together with name and DoB. At the count the ballots are sorted and counted so they tally with the box numbers. Then they get put away. The ordinary boxes arrive and are opened and box numbers tallied with ballots issued. If the tally is correct they get put away and mixed. After that they come back to be sorted into each parties votes. It is in the mixing that postals and ordinary ballots get mixed together.
Re; Grousebeater
Yep, avatars been missing for days here too, just grey blobs instead and obvs you can’t click on said blobs. Gremlins, blobs, Camoron saying brexit will end the world, it’s all just going totally mad.
I believe in an “economic-social” approach.
Good finance and government provided by people like Swinney who provide the opportunities to engage in the sort of social policies advocated by Wee Nicola.
Basically, the German model, with good trade-union relations and participation, no economy based on house prices, export-driven industry, resources spread fairly all around the country.
I wonder if Tommy Sheridan was invited on Andrew Neil before 18 September 2014 in order to “frighten” centre voters? I think we need to be clever. Keep RIC and Tommy for getting the vote out in Glasgow and Dundee, while rolling out people like Swinney or Keith Brown (former marine) to provide the sort of face of indy Ecosse that BBC viewers would be happy with.
I think the problem is Twitter: it allows a lot of noise to be made, but the majority of households are not on Twitter, for better or worse…
I might sound daft, but I think a minority (hardly a minority though!) government is even better than a “one-party state”. I feel we are approaching the “end of the war”…. Labour is down and out. The Tories are now the official face of Unionism, in the form of a shouty loudmouth (can you imagine Wee Nicola throwing plant pots in a drunken rage?).
And…. thank the lord there can be no unionist “unholy alliance” in Holyrood to outvote the SNP! Can you imagine a grand UKOK coalition with Bullgirl as FM with Dugdale as deputy? They would utterly destroy Scotland in five years with their combination of Thatcherite asset-stripping (Ruth) and sheer incompetence (Kezia and her merry bunch of Red Pawns).
Rancid The Graun returns to give their bad scotland region another spanking.
link to archive.is
SNP bad and
“And the SNP challenge is likely worsen in next May’s council elections if the SNP matches the clean sweep it enjoyed in Glasgow last week and the near domination of Fife (a feat stopped only by Willie Rennie’s victory in North East Fife) by also winning control of both local authorities from Labour.
Dugdale lost so badly because faith in Labour has been ruined by its dysfuctional leadership and its often incoherent policy-making, as much by its alliance with the Tories in the referendum.”
Thank you Severin, can I have another.
Also, no idea what their “And the SNP challenge is likely worsen in next May’s council elections” and their “dysfuctional” is probably Freudian. Slabour are pretty fuctioned now.
Probably blinking away hot tears of UKOK fury, splashing on rancid The Graun’s “to” and the “n” keys.
Ronnie’s link from 7.42:
link to panamapapers.icij.org
Breeks
Don’t quote me on this but (from memory) I think linkage with the Trans European High Speed Rail network’s Scottish termination hub, originally conceived for somewhere around Lanarkshire(?), might have been a consideration to proceeding with the Borders Railway.
I’m not judging the implementation, simply adding complexity. Hope you don’t mind. 🙂
P.S. Leeds is probably the furthest north the Trans European High Speed Rail network will ever reach. Both a cost and a detriment to Scotland’s economy. From memory again, even KPMG’s dodgy figures agree.
Thanks Better Together.
RE: Avatars
I’m guessing someone, somewhere has updated WordPress at the server end and it’s no longer showing those random avatars for those of us without an account.
Now, we are just faceless outlines.
Artyhetty: “Yep, avatars been missing for days here too
Ta. Thought it was my tired eyes.
Capella, K1,
Please note that in any proportional electoral system, computers are essential to make the necessary calculations in a usefully short time, especially in the case of Scottish local elections where STV is used. (You can handle AMS with a spreadsheet if necessary, but STV is a whole lot more complex.)
Computers are also used to validate signatures on postal votes by matching on a sufficient number of criteria; a large proportion are passed by this means, otherwise the system would be untenable. The “rejects” (eg. caused by poor scans, or by someone using their full name in one instance and only their first initial in the other) are examined by a real person, and in the last resort passed or rejected by a senior returning officer, whose decision is final.
None of the computers are on-line, so can’t be “hacked into” from the internet in the conventional sense. The actual ballot counting itself is still done by real people, a consequence of the machine-counting fiasco of several elections ago.
Balaaarg: “someone, somewhere has updated WordPress at the server end and it’s no longer showing those random avatars for those of us without an account.”
Could this be a case of a monopoly at work?! 🙂
@K1 Thanks for that I deleted the http.
The msm is slowly dying. Most who buy them do so out of habit. You can access news and weather online. Your facebook newsfeed goes all day putting posts about cats and dinners aside there are a lot of useful news stories in there. I know a women who buys the record(the worst of them in my opinion)everyday “for the crossword” she laughed as she told me she cani mind the last time she actually read it. Sales figures dont reflect the number of zombies. Im 23 most people my age dont need to be told about the lies and spin even those with no political opinion dont trust it. The younger generation also dont have the strange labour connection the older say 55 plus do. I was barely alive to witness old labour. My political opinion before the indy ref was that politicans of all colours were greedy lying c*nts no more no less. We are generation austerity. We have only ever really witnessed cuts cuts and more cunts oopss cuts. Now we dont get the living wage? theyve shat from a height on my generation as they will the next. One of many reasons why indy is absolutely inevitable. People power is what will win the day. We can cry all we want its a waste of energy. we just need to counter it were possible. A new fresh country which we can all build together no matter what political views we have is just too good to miss. No amount of sun headlines can undo what people personally live through. I actually think the msm is a gift sometimes they all come out with that much shite the jokes on them.
Well as its comedy hour , How about Jabba for presiding officer , with Wullie to hold her drink and burger , well it is Labours turn isn’t it , and Wullie deserves his moment in the Sun bless him .
Tickets would be sold far and wide , bus tours would be arranged to take in the show .
Only delete on you tube videos Ronnie…no oan articles 🙂
I totally endorse what the Rev is saying.
The only way these nutters can get elected is to pretend to be a different party entirely and win seats off parties trying to REALLY deliver for people.
We have them in Ireland, 2 elected in last weeks election in the North to Stormont – but only political insiders know they are the Socialist Workers Party in drag. The bulk of the electorate follow the mainstream media which is hostile to Sinn Féin and to a lesser extent the SDLP. There is no Wings for N.I.
The compliant unionist owned media won’t tell anyone here the truth about the SWP and makes them out to be radical independents.
They run in Nat areas and are lauded by the media
All they do is deminish the Nat Vote here and give Unionists more cabinet positions in the power sharing executive.
That needed to be said. Good article.
Yesterdays one was less useful – but appreciate the torrent of abuse you’ve been taking
I for one appreciate this site.
@Dr ew.
“Who condemns everyone unless it is the one true faith he espouses”.
You mean a bit like you are doing?
McWhirter putting his sneery tuppence worth into the mix now. Trying to make out the article is a defence of the Sun and that the working class are being stereotyped as ignorant sheep.
Except as I understand it, the article was saying that most people want a life that could be better and the means to change that in their own hands and have the sense to work out what is best for them.
They are not rabidly Right or Left wing but that is who always makes the most noise in print or social media. Also those that have their politics are dominated by what team you support, East or West. Tribalism at its most primitive.
I am so fed up with the Herald group and their exploitative journos. Apparently Leask was saying that he knew some journos whose feelings had been hurt by cybernats and they weren’t going to vote SNP anymore. As if they were in the first place. How long before the first one jumps ship and says they prefer ‘Home Rule’ and any bets on who?
And don’t start me on that chancer Torrance.
I think Robert JS, that it’s more of an eyebrow raise that Peter Lilley is the director of this company, and seems to be procuring all the elections related to Scotland. I’d be interested in how the procurement process proceeds and why this arch Tory has a company that has in essence the contract for all the data associated with our elections/referendums etc. Anything is ‘hackable’ especially from the ‘inside’.
The deep-rooted, incestuous relationship between SLAB and the corporate media in Scotland (namely BBC and Daily Record) throws up a very interesting situation following the rise of the tories in Scotland last week. They now have a very difficult choice to make: Do they attack Ruthie’s gang in order to help Labour, or do they support Ruthie’s gang in order to defend the union? If they opt for the latter, Labour are finished. Either way, the SNP and the independence movement win.
So what’s it gping to be chaps? Where do your loyalties lie? The Labour party or the union? Can’t have both this time! Too bad eh. 🙂
Oh Robert, and you’ll forgive me if I am not particularly trusing of our ‘electoral’ system…at all? This stuff merely fuels and increases my ‘cynicism’ in that regard.
Wow! Arrogant and ignorant. I’m flabbergasted by this article. It wasn’t the extreme left who were appalled by this photo. It was those of us who had empathy with 96 people who died and the people of Liverpool who were vilified in the days, weeks and years following.
At the time many of us were football supporters or had close family that were football supporters.
Personally I find it morally bankrupt to have anything to do with the Sun. It has nothing to do with where I stand on the political spectrum. I suspect many football people feel the same way.
To ignore the offense many of us took is to me problematic. I couldn’t support the SNP in the election because it would be spitting in the face of the 96 and Liverpool. To not recognise and acknowledge the many of us who were supporting two ticks for the SNP didn’t do so on the day is arrogance or ignorance.
“To ignore the offense many of us took is to me problematic. I couldn’t support the SNP in the election because it would be spitting in the face of the 96”
You’re a fucking imbecile.
THE. SCOTTISH. SUN. DID. NOT. RUN. THE. HILLSBOROUGH. ARTICLE.
And if you’re an SNP voter, why were you still voting for them anyway given that Alex Salmond had done exactly the same thing, repeatedly? Why is it fine to be pictured with the paper in 2011, BEFORE it published its abject apology, but unforgiveable in 2016 when it HAD apologised?
And if you say “Wah wah the inquest verdict” you’re getting banned on the fucking spot, because none of the people who scream about the Sun’s coverage were in any doubt beforehand about those findings.
Balaaargh
I’m feeling a bit exposed, tbh. I thought there might have been a revolution while I was away. 😉
Yeah, I’m surprised the Daily Record didn’t have a headline:
The Ruth No Surrender Party:
Newly Formed Independent Party Steals Labour Opposition’s Rightful Seats In Scottish Parliament.
@Luigi,
McTiernan actually did an article today highlighting to the Tories how they could thwart the SNP at Holyrood. ( unable to link) .They have learned nothing at all.
Bob Mack:
He was writing in the Telegraph:
link to archive.is
“Oh fuck off, Bryan. The Scottish Sun DID NOT RUN THE HILLSBOROUGH STORY. ”
Showing a thin skin to someone who disagrees with you. And if a newspaper columnist or politico had reacted like that you would have had a field day with them.
My own take: I think most folk realise Murdoch is interested in damaging left wing politics wherever he can and he knows a different line is needed in Scotland – so he gives SNP support (what will happen now that Labour are crippled, more support for Davidson with a lot more anti-SNP rhetoric?).
Also – It’s been common down the years for English based papers to have Scottish editions which are different in small ways from the originals. So he has a point. Your one example doesn’t prove yours.
Rev’s article today represents one of the most important and promising steps in the right direction that the Independence movement has ever taken. It actually guarantees that we will get there. No more false promises or prima donnas, just Independence. That’s all we want.
Dr Ew: “you’ve grown noticeably intolerant of any viewpoint but that of the hardliner SNP orthodoxy”
If this was true, it would be commendable.
You see, the only vehicle capable of achieving independence is the SNP. If you can’t see that then I’m afraid you are completely incapable of understanding the situation we find ourselves in.
Would you have it that there was no place or need for loyalty?
And let’s be clear, if the only viable means of achieving independence is through the SNP, then we are talking about loyalty to the cause, not to the party per se.
You should have a think about all that. We are dealing with realities here, not ideals.
Speaking of ideals, since Friday we have learned that the Greens and the radicals have their own goals which are distinct from the cause of independence. That much is clear.
Right now, thankfully, neither of them is in a position to hold us over a barrel, they simply don’t have enough political power to do that, but are you able to imagine the predicament we would be in if they did?
The left generally saw a crowd and thought they could jump to the front it and hijack it. I include Loki in that and if you don’t believe me search Youtube and you will see him rapping to a George Square full of Independence supporters. That’s essentially what RISE were doing too, and arguably the Greens.
None of them have in sincerity or credibility. Scotland has been burdened with these types for years. It’s worth remembering that not so long ago their natural home was the Labour Party.
@ John Young, you omitted to mention prescription charges, tuition fees & frozen council tax.
Former nobody Tom Harris popped up on the news anent Brexit & Scotch Whisky v “Napoleonic” Brandy. Pig ignorance still in evidence.
Cameron warns Brexit could lead to another Scottish Referendum while Ruthie spouts that it’s off the table. You might think they’d compare notes!
DR EW said ; “In other words the entire political landscape is more subtle and complex than your bludgeoning analysis permits. You’re so busy badmouthing SUPPORTERS of independence and indulging in crass caricatures that you appear to have forgotten the real job at hand: Building a strong and stable majority for Yes.
That means persuading former No voters. It’s one thing to advocate an SNP x 2 strategy; it’s another thing to blame the failure of that strategy on others with different but still pro-indy views. Frankly you’re losing credibility with every post, like a ranting street corner preacher who condemns everyone who is blind to the one true faith he espouses.”
I think there is more than a grain of truth to this and not only Stuart should consider this but many of the people who comment. The yes majority has not been achieved yet and if the comments people make on this site are anything like what they use to persuade people to vote yes, then the yes movement has a problem.
Also, seeing as wings over scotland is the most popular site by a mile of the yes movement extra responsibility is on Stuart’s shoulders if he likes it or not. I doubt Stuart will consider these issues but I really think it could be a turn off for a lot of folk.
If this website is to be credible and used as a site to persuade no voters to yes then it needs to be credible and the credibility has been questionable over the last few weeks.
The Sun – no ta
Mrs Brown’s Boys – Yes Please!
Respecting Lizzie – …..nahh.
But we get your point!
@ K1 ah live n learn IT muppet I am lol
@ K1 says at 5:18 pm …. ”Petra @5.09 your link archived:
link to archive.is
Thanks K1. I’ve had archiving explained to me a couple of times but still can’t get the hang of it (red face!)
……………………………….
@ Robert J. Sutherland says at 7:57 pm
”None of the computers are on-line, so can’t be “hacked into” from the internet in the conventional sense.”
Robert what do you make of Clinton Curtis the computer programmer (an American attorney and ex-employee of NASA and ExxonMobil) that gave a sworn testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary that he had been involved in designing and constructing software that could rig votes, 16 years ago?
He tells how he was hired by Congressman Tom Feeney in 2000 to build a prototype software package that would secretly rig an election to sway the result say 51 / 49 to a specified side.’
link to youtube.com
Elections are being rigged. Check out some of the data on-line such as:
Electronic Voting Machine hacked by Computer Scientists (AccuVote-TS)
link to youtube.com
Murder Spies and Voting Lies Part 1 -7
This is the first part:
link to youtube.com
As an SNP activist, I can tell you that we were not at all complacent. We knew that it would be difficult.
What bothered me was how the MSM played it as being in the bag. It also bothers me that the so-called Independence supporting National did much the same as the rest of the media in declaring it a done deal and promoted splitting the vote.
As far as I am concerned
“It isn’t in the bag until the ballot is in the box.”
K1 @ 20:15,
I agree with you to the extent that it would have been far better if the electoral authorities had commissioned their own “open-source” software rather than being reliant on rather opaque services from some private company (whatever their directors’ connections might be). A situation all too comparable with PFI in the financial arena. With open source it would be transparently clear to everyone how the software works, so any potential flaws would be more quickly identified and corrected. It would also be cheaper in the long run.
But I can’t see what you propose to replace the electoral system with, if that’s what you’re implying, and are not just weary from post-election fatigue. Jousts by party champions? Full-scale fixed battles by party activists? =grin=
cj
Good post, are you collecting hammers though?
Hark at me. Paragraphs young man/woman. 🙂
Petra,
My earlier comment was in reference to external access only, as is the common use of the term “hacking”.
See my previous posting re your sense of the term. I believe that all electoral software used should be open source, in order to assure everyone of the trustworthiness of the process.
@Balaargh,
all you grey men need to get yourselves a groovy avatar.
here is how…
Go to
http://en.gravatar.com (or just click on someone else’s avator and try to log-in)
Select Add a new account – input e-mail, WordPress name and password.
It will send you a e-mail confirmation.
Add you picture from web or from a file.
Log out.
Simple and no more Grey men!
Second trial over Lockerbie a ‘realistic possibility’ says outgoing Lord Advocate
link to archive.is
I see Dugdale’s appologist Alex Rowley has his finger on the pulse of the Scottish people Federalism for the whole UK, how long can they keep up these hopeless proposals.
Is this the kind of Indy supporting Slab we’ve come to expect Oh Yes It Is .
Dr Ew
Who will be next do you think? Generation Yes? Business for Scotland? The mind boggles.
A few on here have mentioned a much more useful subject- something the prominent figures in the indy camp have studiously ignored. Why are so many in the Borders and Dumfries and Galloway voting tory?
The perception seems to be that these areas are rammed full of English pensioners and maybe the proximity to the border gives people a much more friendly, pro UK outlook. Folk don’t understand the south of Scotland. Hell- I was brought up in Dumfries and I have no understanding whatsover of the Borders which are conflated as a single region ‘South of Scotland’ on the list regional ballot papers and in the minds of those completely ignorant of the two regions.
Would you adam and eve it that Galloway was an independent political entity until the time of John Balliol? That it was the last part of mainland Scotland to speak Gaelic?
And as I posted the other day, the south-west was a hotbed of unrest against the treaty of union to the extent that an armed uprising was anticipated and the articles of union were burnt at the midsteeple by 300 armed presbyterians in front of a throng of doonhamers.
Here is another wee question- how long does it take to get from Dumfries to the next largest town- Stranraer by public transport? 2.5 hours. I was due to take the train down from Edinburgh last weekend and found it was one of those ‘road-train’s’ that can only travel on tarmac roads with penumatic tyres. Same price as a train ticket but.
The usual bus service takes about 2.5hours from memory (although I normally take the train to Lockerbie and then get another bus from there or get a lift). In short, the transport links are shite in a region that desperately needs to be well connected.
We’ve all heard about Ravenscraig, Linwood, the shipyards on the Clyde and all the job losses suffered by industrial Scotland. Few will have heard of the Uniroyal or the Carnation or the ICI in Dumfries- these were big employers in the town when I was growing up and the only one left is a greatly diminished Dupont (formerly ICI).
That is not to say that everything is doom and gloom and there are some fantastic businesses springing up, particularly in the food and drink industry, and the uni campus opening has been great for the town. But it feels very very remote from the central belt and there is resentment of Edinburgh in particular.
I am almost embarrassed to say I have moved to Edinburgh when back home… it makes me sound like I’m an affected twat with ideas above my station.
Work needs done to bring the south into the body of the kirk and it will take much more than the Scottish cabinet meeting there once in a blue moon. The industry in Dumfries left and there was nothing done to replace it… the South West just keeps on keeping on.
It ain’t rammed with English pensioners- in fact it ain’t rammed at all. The lowlands suffered every bit as much from the clearances as the highlands but as ever the region is somewhat invisible and detatched.
Of all the reasons people have for voting No and voting tory, I suppose in the South-West this feeling of distance from Edinburgh and their representatives is one of them.
We can write off the these tory areas or we can try and understand why they are disaffected with the SNP and try and do something about it. Blaming ‘English settlers’ is maybe convenient but the issues the region(s) face are much more larger.
@Hoss,
Howdy Pardner – just followed your links and have now got a shiny new avatar.
How are things going over at the Ponderosa?
@Petra and Robert J Sutherland
Brazil has gone Open Source, not just for voting, and saves a fortune in software licences. It also encourages local software expertise.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
link to timreview.ca
I’d like to see this considered here in the future. There are disadvantages though as the article explains.
This absolutely nails it. I clearly remember these self same ego swollen muppets 25 years ago at University, only then it was as Socialist Workers Party. Same naieve belief that they were speaking for some downtrodden mass of people when practically every normal person saw them for the publicity seeking, grievance nurturers they were. The left has always done this, tiny insignificant factions falling out over things the vast majority care not a jot about. The Rev is spot on, people just want decent services, good education, reasonable expectation of healthcare etc etc. I watch the likes of Sheridan, Colin Fox et al and wonder if they will ever grow up. At least Cat Boyd et al have youthful idealism as an excuse. Frankly the sooner they realise there is one path to Indy and it lies with the SNP the better. Once that is achieved they can form all the pointless collectives and groups they want but until then please give us peace.
@ Luigi says at 8:13 pm …….
”The deep-rooted, incestuous relationship between SLAB and the corporate media in Scotland (namely BBC and Daily Record) throws up a very interesting situation following the rise of the tories in Scotland last week. They now have a very difficult choice to make: Do they attack Ruthie’s gang in order to help Labour, or do they support Ruthie’s gang in order to defend the union? If they opt for the latter, Labour are finished. Either way, the SNP and the independence movement win.
So what’s it going to be chaps? Where do your loyalties lie? The Labour party or the union? Can’t have both this time! Too bad eh. :)”
I’ve been thinking about this too Luigi. Bit a dilemma for them now. It looks as though they’ll be caught between a rock and a hard place in particular newspapers such as the Daily Record.
In saying that in the lead up to the Referendum they swung from one extreme to the other by using everyone and anyone in an attempt to scupper the Indyref. I bought that newspaper everyday at that time to monitor what was going on. Too lengthy to go into. Suffice to say the bias was horrendous such as publishing the views of 13 doom and gloom Scottish economists (photographs, personal data and so on to endear them to their readers) days before the vote. They omitted to mention to their Labourite readers that the economists were members of a TORY think tank. In comparison over a period of months the renowned Joseph Stiglitz was mentioned once in a two paragraph piece.
It’ll be interesting to see how they’ll spin it all now, especially Torcuil Chrichton ”The Daily Record’s man who stalks the corridors of power at Westminster.”
Hi Rev
I’m with Petra go have a break .
But please please come back I visit regularly throughout each and every day . I will not post but really appreciate you and those that do, you have all made such a difference to me and many others. I would not be as engaged as I am nor have been at that polling station without you. G
I think Labour, LDs and Greens should all make a stand that they are not in the business of knee jerk opposition to the SNP. Their job is to represent those who elected them in a government that should at a minimum welcome their input. Opposing outright a party, or parties, the near majority of those who voted chose isn’t guaranteed to improve your future prospects. Would certainly take the wind out el Moothador’s sails.
@Petra (7.42) –
That name – Idox – does ring a bell.
I was at the postal ballot count in Ayr Council Halls, along with Jim of this parish (we were ‘Wings’ reps) and I’m sure that was the name on some banners used as table-front drapes. I’d tried to remember the name, having stupidly not taken note of it, and asked Jim well after the event, but we couldn’t remember between us…
Jim, if you see this, does it ring a bell with you too?
Where is Ian Brotherhood today?
@cj 8:03
Good post.
I feel so sorry for people your age. Its criminal what has happened to this country. When I left school in the 70’s you could just walk into the jobcentre and get a decent unskilled manual job and get paid a wad of cash every Friday.
University was free (as it still is in Scotland thanks to the SNP) and there were no student loans, you got a grant to live on. It was means tested according to your parents wealth. If your parents werent that well off you got full grant which was just about enough to pay accomodation, food and beer.
I was on a sandwich course which meant I could work in labouring jobs (which were plentiful) for half the year. If I didnt like it I could walk out and get another.
I walked out of college and straight into a tech job, one interview that was it, skilled up for life.
If you were out of work, basic Unemployment Benefit would buy you as far as I can remember, about 40 pints of beer. Nowadays I think it would stretch to about 20. (just an indicator to what money would buy in those days, you understand).
Thatcher screwed the UK outside of the South East, and especially screwed over Scotland, levelled our industries, siphoned away the oil. We could have been as rich as Norway or Switzerland if we had continued voting SNP in the 70s.
So that’s what they call the ‘Union Dividend’.
This is why I hate the Tories (and the whole Establishment, Mr Peffers 🙂 with a passion, because I watched all this happen, even though I personally was ok.
After independence it might not all be a bed of roses, but at least we can try to right some of the wrongs and look after each other, and our young people.
Now having to watch the recycled ignoramuses as they re-enter Parliament. The vacant coupons, the banging on the desks. Like seals but without the finesse. A spectacle that turns most people’s stomachs. Makes folk physically sick to watch. The ignorant soundbites. Most can’t even read a balance sheet. Or compose two syllables together. Resoundly voted out but re-appearing again and again. The total conceit and sense of entitlement. Only there to obscure and be as unhelpful as they can. Unionists certainly tried to stitch up Holyrood. They will never succeed.
Looking for a familiar barney
{ : > )
@ Robert J. Sutherland says at 8:51 pm …. ”Petra, My earlier comment was in reference to external access only, as is the common use of the term “hacking”.
See my previous posting re your sense of the term. I believe that all electoral software used should be open source, in order to assure everyone of the trustworthiness of the process.”
@ Glamaig says at 9:01 pm …. ”Brazil has gone Open Source, not just for voting, and saves a fortune in software licences. It also encourages local software expertise.
I’d like to see this considered here in the future. There are disadvantages though as the article explains.”
link to news.bbc.co.uk
link to timreview.ca
Thanks Robert and Glamaig for responding to my post. ”Open source”?? I have problems archiving so my knowledge of software technology is er limited. However this is a learning experience for me so I’ll check out your links Glamaig and see if I can make sense of it all.
If ‘open source’ is more acceptable … more trustworthy … surely one of our many successful Scottish software companies should have been awarded the contract rather than a company that employs a director who could be deemed to have a conflict of interests, especially if they are not using open source electoral software?
Additionally is there any way that we can find out what they are using?
Now that NeoconNat has gone – how about a serious debate about what a right of centre independence party would look like.
The Sun might not be toxic politically.
But the biggest reason working class people remain so ignorant and are so easily exploited by the establishment is the likes of The Sun, and the rest of the media, led by Pravda GB.
@ Ken500 says at 9:32 pm …. ”Now having to watch the recycled ignoramuses as they re-enter Parliament. The vacant coupons, the banging on the desks. Like seals but without the finesse. A spectacle that turns most people’s stomachs. Makes folk physically sick to watch. The ignorant soundbites. Most can’t even read a balance sheet. Or compose two syllables together. Resoundly voted out but re-appearing again and again. The total conceit and sense of entitlement.
*** Only there to obscure and be as unhelpful as they can.***
Unionists certainly tried to stitch up Holyrood. They will never succeed.Only there to obscure and be as unhelpful as they can.”
Spot on Ken but eh don’t forget the £60,000 wage ….. £105,000 for the Presiding Officer. I wonder what ‘seal’ will land that position. Maybe wee Lamont the lady with most vacant coupon of all.
Wings is not just a political commentary. Its members reflect the feelings of the majority of Scots. Which leads me to the question? Have any wingers established a relationship through wings and subsequently married. Assuming the answer is affirmative did the Rev buy a new hat and attend?
Aye Robert JS, ah think ah widnae mind bein’ in thon q tae smackapolician or clapapolitician, it’d be right upfront and a real democratic expression of in or oot. We could huv heidbuttin’ jousts fur the real hard o hearin’politician…literally batter some sense intae them…
Hmmm…televised and radio wi runnin’ commentary from Wingers…I’m really liking this idea! 😉
I believe that we must do all we can to win independence for Scotland. To this end,like many others, I campaigned for months for SNP x 2 – canvassing, climbing closes, out in the pissing rain, leafletting, talking with people of all opinions, writing letters, manning stalls etc.
We know in our bones that nothing was given: we went and out and fought for every last YES vote for the referendum, and we did it again for Westminster 2015 and once more with feeling these past few months.
Add to this the intense discipline of the SNP leadership and its rigorous organisation, and you start to understand how a political movement – if it is to win improvements for its people – has to be based on real effort and intellectual toughness.
All right it’s persuasion not armed struggle – but just ‘cos it’s not Castro nor Nelson Mandela, doesn’t mean it isn’t still a struggle. Tho’ I hope I’m pretty positive, tolerant and good-natured at heart, I’m sorry to say that I grew a wee bit weary of the armchair commentators (right and left) who know better than the rest of us, including that the SNP was ‘guaranteed’ to win all the constituencies.
I try to understand their point of view but sometimes it’s hard to discern much more than arrogance, petulance and superficiality.
To paraphrase Lenin, left-wing nationalism: an infantile disorder.
Ah don’t mind archiving if I’m aboot on the threads, some people can get their heids roon it, some cannae…hey ho, nae biggie 🙂
Re: electronic ballot counting and rigging
I think the difference in parts (not all) of the US is that the voter interacts with a terminal, which can be set up to mis-record the result, rather than a piece of paper, so any fiddling is done at source, not during the count (except in the sense that that is occurring cumulatively during the voting process).
I’m not sure if states with that type of voting also have paper ballots as a record/for recounts.
(There’s a post in a familiar style at 8.26 from AhuraMazda, the Zoroastrian creator of Angra Mainyu; how odd….)
Paula Rose says: “Now that NeoconNat has gone – how about a serious debate about what a right of centre independence party would look like.”
I spoke above for the need for a German model of economy. To my mind, “Business for Scotland” provides the model for a “right of centre” independence party.
To my mind, not just Scotland is crying out for a real “conservative” [small c] party. There is no real capitalism, as there is no capital, savings are being eaten away by QE and low interest rates.
I have always regarded Tories as the worst form of benefit scroungers. Tories feed off the state and aspire to be “Davos man”… someone who derives most of his income, directly or indirectly, from state patronage.
That is, subconsciously, why the Tories castigate “benefits scroungers” endlessly. This obsession can only be possible if you are, deep down, one yourself — and you know it. It is a form of self-loating, just like our Britnat journalists and ProudScotsBut…
I do not know a single Tory who is capable of doing an honest day’s work and earning money off his own bat! That is why the UKOK is such a bastion of privilege.
I also do not know a single Tory who understands economics. Thatcher and her claim that “the problem with socialism is that you run out of other people’s money” is a classic example (and I am not a socialist by any means — she simply did not understand how money is created).
We live in a state of crony capitalism and revolving doors between government and business. Small and medium businesses are stifling.
I have always said that we need to mobilise “Business for Scotland” as a way to provide a “human face of capitalism”…. a Scottish mixed-economy way of doing things… There you have your right-of-centre indy party. I would not even say “right of centre”…. just “Scottish capitalism with a human face”… not the crony capitalism of the UKOK (think Broon, Cameron, Osborne, Mandelson, Blair…)
We have basically captured the entire left and destroyed the Red Pawns. Now is the time to hoover up the “sensible right” (I am talking normal middle-class people here, not the Orange Order types who flock to Ruthie’s message).
@ Paula Rose at 9.37
Have a look at 8.26
Have any wingers established a relationship through wings and subsequently married. Assuming the answer is affirmative did the Rev buy a new hat and attend?
Hey Ruby, how you doin:D
crazycat, well spotted, and yes uncanny…I don’t think Torynat is through with us yet.
Lol Heed 🙂
@Petra
surely one of our many successful Scottish software companies should have been awarded the contract rather than a company that employs a director who could be deemed to have a conflict of interests, especially if they are not using open source electoral software?
Are you referring to this story?
link to bbc.co.uk
That was a weird episode, BBC ran with it for precisely 1 day as far as I can remember, then pulled it. I remember Gary Robertson practically tripping over his words in excitement and going on about BBC FOI request, Indian contractors, etc.
They interviewed a disgruntled English IT contractor who had been booted off the job and replaced by Indians.
Then the story just disappeared off the airwaves.
Ive no idea whats going on technically in that job, but it sounds par for the course for big public sector IT contracts. Government IT projects are a nightmare (for the Government). Cash cows for software consultancies.
Ive lost count of all the UK Government IT fcuk ups and it looks like ScotGov isnt immune either. Its a big problem. Im not surprised the farmers are pissed off.
AFAIK Open Source means geeks do it at home for free and the kudos within the Open Source geek community! Obviously its great for their software careers too. Its brilliant for some things, dont know about that particular system, but ScotGov should maybe look at the idea.
@ Boris big a me I know but I’ve married dozens – the Rev does the wotsits and ronnie anderson gives me away.
Paula you are correct. The Tory revival if there is such a thing. Only exists because of Devolution,in a parliament they didn’t want. Take that away and there would only be cuddly left in the Borders.
So why are the Tories so desperate to cling onto a country RUK, which vetos their existence in Scotland. Why can’t the right embrace independence?
In fact even for purely pragmatic reasons, they would have the chance to play a part in moulding an independent Scotland. The economy, welfare state,defence, wealth creation. Yet they refuse to accept that they exist in Scotland because we have self government. Wm is bad for them and Scotland. Hence Cameron never comes to visit Ruth. A party leader in London you are ashamed of is grounds for a divorce.
In terms of procurement of electoral IT systems to deal with elections/referedums it’s the local authority that choose the contractors, not the SG:
A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: “The administration of elections in Scotland is the responsibility of individual returning officers for each local authority, who award contracts for support services, such as the printing of ballot papers and poll cards, on the basis of what will provide the best value and quality, with the interests of the voter always taking precedence.”
This company Idox has the entire contract for all of Scotland, is my understanding of this, am I wrong in thinking this? So every ‘individual returning officer for each local authority’ in Scotland ‘chose’ Idox? No?
I laughed at the thought of Torcuil Chrichton ”The Daily Record’s man who stalks the corridors of power at Westminster.”
Like being stalked by a sub-normal mouse, or the proverbial dead sheep
Lord knows how they continue to employ him, his SNP bad stuff is so inadequate that even a red or blue Tory would read it with a chortle at Chrichon’s expense
I like the thought of Wings doubling as a marriage agency.
The Braveheart scenario, “If we can’t get them out, we’ll breed them out.”
As for Stuart’s headgear; a fascinator, surely? ;D
Thing is I don’t regard the Tories as being to the right of centre – they are an horrific return to feudalism that has nothing to do with encouraging and supporting a market economy. The Thatcherites were an entryist extremist faction that destroyed conservatism.
Paula the Tories in an independent Scotland could be less toxic and extreme. The trouble is they are led by an alien anti Scottish culture of the Bullington boys in Chelsea.
They are rejected in Scotland because people see them as economic and societal vandals. That could be different if the rediscovered old fashioned Scottish canniness and business sense. What we have at the moment is a branch office of King Herods emporium.
Good grief, and I didn’t even notice.
Indeed Big Jock many of the Green party policies would appeal to those who consider themselves to be right of centre. Many who vote Conservative actually agree with those policies if you don’t tell them which party espouses them.
Surely nobody in Scotland would have taken part in the referendum had they known Idox (with it’s Tory connections) was involved in any way.
If you’re looking for a material change in circumstances there it is.
It should be declared null and void.
If this same company is to run the EU ref I will boycott the vote and refuse to participate.
O/T
Below are some significant extracts for the UN Charter and subsequent additions to it. The notion that Westminster can refuse us a referendum is bluff
“The right of nations to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law , binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms. It states that nations, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference. This principle can be traced to the Atlantic Charter, signed on 14 August 1941, by Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, and Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, who pledged The Eight Principal points of the Charter.[4] It also is derived from principles espoused by President Woodrow Wilson following World War I, after which some new nation states were formed, or previous states were revived after the dissolution of empires., It postulated a new international law-based right of freedom also in economic self-determination. Article 5 states: Immediate steps shall be taken in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories, or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.”
*Article 5 was basically about decolonisation but the same principles apply to Scotland’s rights
Blair and Blairites are centre right. Peter Mandelson’s a nice example of centre right bullshit artistry and very relaxed about getting rich, by taking nice house loans from super rich dudes that dont want anything in return, sort of New Labour.
“Peter Mandelson resigned as Trade and Industry Secretary in 1998 after it emerged that he had accepted a secret loan of £373,000 from Labour MP Geoffrey Robinson to buy a £475,000 house in Notting Hill.
He was forced out because he failed to declare the details of the loan to either the Commons Register of Members Interests or to the company which gave him the mortgag
Eyebrows were raised five years ago when he bought his current home, a villa close to Regent’s Park, which cost £2.5million and seemed beyond his means. Observers noted that it cost 16 times the £160,000 salary he then enjoyed as Britain’s EU commissioner in Brussels.
2010 Peter Mandelson set himself up as head of an international consultancy. The Mayfair-based firm – Global Counsel LLP – started trading last November with the financial backing of advertising giant WPP.
Lord Mandelson ‘avoids tax by taking £400,000 loan from his own company’
Money was earned through book sales and public speaking engagements
His firm Willbury Ltd gave him £400k loan in the 2013/14 financial year
Borrowing not liable to be taxed as long as official 3.25% interest charged
Labour grandee’s spokesman said he ‘pays all relevant personal taxes’
By JOHN STEVENS, POLITICAL REPORTER FOR THE DAILY MAIL
PUBLISHED: 01:01, 28 January 2015 | UPDATED: 09:38, 28 January 2015
Tasty, very very tasty.
@Dave MacEwan Hill
3 very important words right there
with no interference
Paula Rose says: 9 May, 2016 at 10:07 pm
@ Boris big a me I know but I’ve married dozens – the Rev does the wotsits and ronnie anderson gives me away.
Paula Rose: but what about commitment? Ronnie Anderson must be a patient man indeed. I wondered about the Rev. Where does he find the time?
I’m getting sick to the back teeth of Sillars being described as an ex deputy leader of the SNP as though his opinion of anything within the SNP is worth a single penny.
A very astute and accurate assessment, Rev.
The so-called radical left are a pitiful rump of ideologues hanging onto a long since repudiated political philosophy.
Look Tommy, Cat, Rise and Solidarity – Marx got it wrong. Completely. His analysis of history was wrong; his idea of class struggle was wrong; his understanding of how and why people are motivated was wrong. Get over it.
Let’s have practical, pragmatic politics that accept the realities of life and try to mitigate the negative effects of the system on those at the bottom of the pile.
Great article, as per usual, from George Kerevan in The National.
‘There’s no third way in Scottish politics after the Tories’ surge.’
” ……. for the Conservatives this Holyrood election was about nothing else other than the constitution. Backed by a partisan Tory press – some of whose proprietors are tax-avoiding non-doms – the main Unionist parties vied to corral the No voters into a disciplined force to block the onward march of the SNP. …………
There is a clear message here for a defeated and humiliated Scottish Labour Party: you can either join the Tories as a junior partner in defending the Union – their Conservative version of the Union. Or you can join with the SNP and Scottish Greens in creating an independent, left-of-centre Scotland free to build the inclusive and egalitarian society we all want. There is no third way in Scottish politics any longer. It is an independent, socialist and green Scotland – or a Unionist, Tory and exploited subsidiary of the City of London…….
The economy will be the central issue for the Scottish Government of the next five years. As it is, the global economic outlook is decidedly stormy and we are overdue the next big financial crisis. Our opponents claim (with forked tongue) that the SNP Government now has more economic powers than any other “devolved” administration. Very well, let’s put that to the test.
For starters, we need to take direct public control over investment flows in the economy by creating a genuine state-owned investment bank. We may lack the tax powers to act as an economic driver but we can be bolder and intervene directly in the financial sector. Then challenge Scottish Labour and the Greens to support us. And if the Tories at Westminster veto our Scottish Public Investment Bank? Let’s hope they try.”
link to thenational.scot
Labour autopsy on Scotland Tonight. Macaveety wants a discussion about Home Rule. His cohort says we have enough powers. So in essence they know they lost the unionists and want the Brits back. They don’t want any of the 45 back. So we are rejected by Labour entirely…half of Scotland! They are truly a British unionist party. Their end is near.
Earlier Alex Rowley Federalism in the UK.
Frank McAveety on Stv DevoMax for discussion No Hope for Slab anytime but Back to the Future, who said Dinosaurs were deed.
Paula Rose,
“Indeed Big Jock many of the Green party policies would appeal to those who consider themselves to be right of centre.”
Are you still an SNP member or now that the election is over, are you planning to re-join the Greens, if you haven’t already done so?
Yesindyref2: “I’m getting sick to the back teeth of Sillars being described as an ex deputy leader of the SNP”
🙂
It’s up there with ‘a leading expert’, and ‘founder of the think tank, Democracy Not”, he being the only member.
Petra,
“Great article, as per usual, from George Kerevan in The National.”
Now that the election is out of the way, The National doesn’t need to reduce the SNP vote by promoting the Greens and RISE, until the next election.
You will now see great “pro independence”, even “pro SNP” articles, to dupe gullible independence supporters.
Hello Rock are you going to be your usual unpleasant self as usual or be constructive instead. You do I hope realise that the rural folk of Scotland are voting for the Tories whereas if they actually knew what they stood for they would run a mile.
Labour deputy leader Alex Rowley and Glasgow Council leader Frank McAveety are pushing for Labour to adopt a federal/home rule/Devomax platform.Gemma Doyle saying No,Labour should adopt a hardline unionist position.I can’t see anything other than further decline for Labour unless they find their own ground on the constitution.Same goes for Libdem.
I am a little bemused here.
Kevin may well have over-egged the Sun trap effect, but when I saw that photo, I too thought “Ooops, that’ll lose us votes”.
Also yes, I have had issues with the blinkered Left in the past and fought hard but largely unsuccessfully to try to make them take a more pragmatic approach, try to at least admit of the validity of another viewpoint even if they cannot fully empathise with it.
Kevin I found was one of the few in an influential position in that part of the political spectrum who was amenable to at least consideration of such ideas.
We should just be grateful that the SNP 1&2 strategy, which quickly became the only possible strategy did not result in total disaster even if that did, in football parlance, rely on other teams helping us out.
I shudder to think what might have happened if, for example, we had antagonised the Greens to the extent that they put up a constituency candidate in every seat, if SLAB had chosen McIntosh rather than Dugdale, if UKLAB had chosen a more viable left winger (e.g. Margaret Hodge), if the UKLibDems had chosen an anti-Tory leader etc.
I voted SNP 1&2 and advocated others do so as well simply because the short lived window of opportunity for taking a more prudential approach passed. SNP 1, Green 2 was always an all or nothing strategy.
Fortunately, we got away with it.
OT
Great rambling quote on Scotland 2016 by Paul McNamee of the Big Issue.
“…obviously the tories are pro-union but at the same time they were very clever and Ruth Davidson (who’s incredibly likeable) was able to somehow… uncouple herself from the Westminster conservative party to make it look as though the Scottish conservative party was not involved with some of the nastier elements of austerity, some of the cuts, health, education therefore she could look progressive, she could look as if she was for the underclass and for the people rather than the way the westminster conservatives are.”
‘Somehow’ eh? How did they manage that BBC?
call me dave,
“Second trial over Lockerbie a ‘realistic possibility’ says outgoing Lord Advocate”
A knowingly deliberate lie by the “Lord Advocate”, in my view.
The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core.
A second trial will never be allowed, not before independence anyway.
I am sure Lockerbie expert Dr Morag Kerr agrees with me.
Big Jock @ 9 May, 2016 at 10:55 pm
Regardless of what side the Red Tories turn to, whether cuddly unionism, hardcore British nationalism or dare I say reluctant backing of independence, does anybody actually trust them enough to give them their support?
Regardless of your views on the constitution, the Red Tories are parasitic in nature and have done nothing but harm for Scotland. They have been wiped out at the UK election, now at the Scottish parliament election. There is unfinished business as they need to be wiped out at the council elections next year.
Paula I’ve always been in the SNP? 25 years.
O/T
Paints drying evenly,&looking good.
Channel 5 A evening with Rylan, the days of pap TV isent over.
So it would appear “Yoon” and such are fair comment. Drat, I was enjoing being nasty for a change. 😉
Paula Rose,
“Hello Rock are you going to be your usual unpleasant self as usual or be constructive instead. You do I hope realise that the rural folk of Scotland are voting for the Tories whereas if they actually knew what they stood for they would run a mile.”
Why are you dodging the question?
The link would help, I suppose.
link to openscholarship.wustl.edu
Macrocker- Yep Key could announce she was for independence tomorrow. But that ship has sailed.
I’ve talked to many old Labour voters in my job. The hatred people now have for them cannot be overestimated. They backed Westminster over Scotland, they backed the wrong side. They know it but can never undo it. So they can now only embrace Unionism. But ironically they also hate Labour. Nobody’s child springs to mind. You dance with the devil and he steals your soul.
The figures
Greens 1300 – Constituency vote – Total Constituency vote out of 2Million+ voters
Greens (2nd) vote – 1300 votes? (1) voters (constituency vote). Total (2nd) votes150426 votes likely taken from other different Party voters. = 6 MSP. Most elected by (2nd) votes whose first (main) choice was another Parties (likely SNP)
SNP 1,058,897 + (2nd) votes = 953,587 – 105,316 SNP voters gave (2nd) vote away likely to a Green. No other Parties voters (likely) gave their (2) vote to SNP. The 105,316 (2nd) votes given away by SNP (1) voters made the major difference to the outcome. Elected MSP’s from another Party (Green?) and lose SNP vital seats for total majority.
SNP took seats from Labour. (Support Indy or SNP policies) Labour voters (Unionists?) changed to Tory and gave vote to Tories.
Tories got 501,844 (1st) votes (less than 1st votes for Labour ) + 524,222 (2nd) votes (more 2nd votes than Labour. (Labour or LiBDems gave (2nd) votes to Tories?).
Labour got (1st) vote 514,261 + 435,919 (2nd vote) Gave (2nd) votes to the Tories?
LibDem – 178,238 + 119284 (Gave (2nd) votes away to ? Greens, Tories, Labour or SNP (unlikely) any possible.
It takes an unusual degree of both imagination and intelligence to correctly guess at what the future might hold. Who amongst us could have guessed that we would all be here today congratulating Rev Stuart on a post of this nature?
And, yet, now, with the benefit of hindsight, it seems inevitable that a split between the radical left and the independence movement was on the cards. It simply makes no sense for us to burden ourselves with their impossible dreams.
Unpleasant as some might find this new relationship, things could be worse. If they make trouble for us now when they have no power, how much worse would things be if they had some? Again, we can only guess.
Intelligent people the world over do their best to guess what the future will bring us and less intelligent people depend on the abilities of those who do it successfully. I guess most of you would agree.
So, here’s a few things that I guess regulars on here might factor in when they look ahead into the future of Scottish politics.
The smart money tells us that Brexit is not likely to happen. We should assume, therefore, that it will not happen. Consider the implications of that assumption and see where it leads…
Would it make sense to promise a referendum on Brexit when it was unlikely to happen? Maybe, but doing so would potentially lead to unnecessary attacks and resistance in the short term that would needlessly damage SNP credibility.
Would it make sense to rule a referendum out completely, assuming (as we are here) that Brexit was not going to happen? No. It would look weak.
Maybe the above helps give an insight to the SNP’s ambiguity on the matter. I think we can forgive them of that, then.
The fast-thinkers amongst you will be wondering where that leaves us, the Independence Movement, and what we should prepare for. The obvious implication is that we can safely rule out a referendum for the next 5 years at least, assuming it is in the next manifesto and we win a majority, of course.
Looking at it like that, I guess it’s best that we don’t have the radical left pestering us in the Parliament over the next 5 years as we prepare for indyref2.
And it’s undoubtedly going to be a lot easier for us to foster support for independence amongst those who we have so far so far failed to convince (chief amongst them the business community and centre ground), if we have disassociated ourselves from those parties and policies that are perceived to be at odds with responsible governance.
@Rock Yes No
I know Tam, it’s incredible to listen to people who actually believe what they have essentially been led to believe and then speak as if it is ‘their own analysis’ of what they have been led to believe.
Ruth’s not that pleasant.
The Tories aren’t that clever.
Ruth manipulated the public’s perceptions, ably abetted by the BBC and all other mainstream newspapers and in her own leaflets to absolutely ‘decouple’ herself from her party so that she could garner support from No voters and campaigned on a one issue platform to that end, i.e. ‘we don’t want a referendum’.
Ergo she’s a strident Unionist, first, second and last working on behalf of the UK establishment to undermine a democratically elected, and popular government who threaten that establishment. Ruth’s a Tory through and through, the small number of No voters she actually garnered should be remarked upon, I mean it’s not as if the Tories got nearly 50% of the vote share last Thursday, is it?
We have to remain constantly alert and vigilant to the manipulation of perceptions which is ‘key’ to their ‘prominence’, it’s not their policies, we know what they are, she will attempt to ‘decouple’ herself from these too in the parliament, but as others have said on here over the past few days: Nae chance Ruthie, yer a wolf in dodgy makeup…get tae.
‘Somehow’ Aye right enough!
I do not go along with the assumption that the working class overwhelmingly support the Royal Family.Maybe south of the border.After all it is Scotland we’re talking about.
@Grouse Beater
Yes, and quite possibly Tom Gordon’s “senior SNP source”.
I’m wondering if the other one will appear as well and have a conversation with itself. I couldn’t do that without being at two separate keyboards. Couldn’t you? No, I couldn’t!
It’s quite unbelievable Indyref2, beyond help or hope, what a strange, strange world some people inhabit. How very sad. Nevermind. 🙂
Hey just in case no one noticed sensible wasn’t about during that entire ‘residence’ period either, so are we talkin’ 3 keyboards, no, yes, no me either?
Great article Rev.
I agree with everything you write.
Scotland cannot afford to have the Independence supporting parties splitting into mutually antagonistic groups – .leave that to Labour and Tories.
Enjoy your break. You may need the UN to sort out the inevitable rioting and looting which will break out in this site, in your absence, but don’t worry about us, as General Custer said.
The Greens most of whom were likely elected by SNP (1) voter’s (2nd) vote) 6MSP’s. They won a seat (likely) by SNP (2nd votes) – ‘now have a mandate’ according to them to hold the SNP to account. Hold the ‘controlling’ non ‘radical’ SNP’ to account. ‘That’s gratitude for you’.
It’s beyond ridiculous.
Hahahehe oh dear did you catch the slab think tank on yon propaganda box earlier i was out and unfortunatly the radiation tube was on so i caught it.
We lost because we failed to say we were against independence jeez how thick can you get,someone want to tell them coming second is still losing.
Home rule federalism best of both worlds blah blah blah go lie down in the corner Labour you are foaming at the gub,here is how its going to be either back indy or get lost your choice as your blue tory pals have just made you surplus to requirement personaly even if you did back indy now i would still tell you to get lost as you cant be trusted to do what is right for Scotland while run from London.
See you in a year when we finish the job we started out to do until then dont drown in your own pish.
Can anybody check out the electoral spending of the tories well it would seem they might have been caught being very naughty in Cornwall amongst other places in England,Ch4 seem to be leading the assualt but the rest of britnat tv has swept it under the carpet with lots of nothing to see here,as scandals go this is one that can bring down governments.
I would feel better if we cleared them if this slander quicker than our English chums did ahem 😉
@Glamaig says: 9 May, 2016 at 10:03 pm:
“AFAIK Open Source means geeks do it at home for free and the kudos within the Open Source geek community! “
Actually, while geeks often do write open source software, the term means simply that the software is not subject to normal copyright laws. Is not encrypted and thus the source of the code is, “Open to all”.
Often the aim is to allow the development of the code by other coders although most of it is covered by a form of copyright that prevents anyone altering it or charging cash for its use.
In the case of voter counting it obviously has to be prevented for being changed by others. Just open to inspection by people who want assured it is not being used to cheat the system.
@ Dave McEwan Hill says at 10:41 pm ….
”…… Below are some significant extracts for the UN Charter and subsequent additions to it. The notion that Westminster can refuse us a referendum is bluff……….. *Article 5 was basically about decolonisation but the same principles apply to Scotland’s rights.”
Exactly Dave no-one but no-one can stop us from acquiring our Independence when the majority of Scots indicate that this is exactly what they want. Certainly not some wee egotistical Tory dictator: a daft rictus grinnin (or girnin) wummin from Fife (born in Edinburgh). I can see her stopping the Scots from astride a buffalo or inside a tank. NOT. I’m just waiting for the Tories to become so obnoxious, even more obnoxious than they are at present, that they drive the disillusioned Labour supporters into the SNP fold. Ruth’s so-called successful strategy has just polarised Scotland and done us all one big favour.
Joan MacAlpine SNP has pointed out already that the UN have SEVERAL declarations that we can turn to to get our Independence. Go right over Ruthie’s and Westminster’s heads.
Adam Tomkins, Tory MSP, will be well aware of this too. He was constitutional advisor to the House of Lords Constitution Committee for years and last year acted as constitutional advisor to the Scotland Office and David Mundell. He has also published books relating to constitutional, administrative and European Union law. He knows that Davidson is lying through her teeth when she says lacking a mandate and a majority rules Indyref2 out.
Joan MacAlpine: ”The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) both say: “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. David Cameron has acknowledged Scotland as a nation – so he can hardly turn round and deny us the right to self-determination as defined by the UN.”
……………………………………..
Just came across this article.
link to heraldscotland.com
Yesindyref 2 , I think you will find that the subsidy the Northern Isles gets on its ferries are higher than the equivalent RET subsidy.
@ Ken500, are you taking into account that the Greens only contested 2 constituencies. So most of them will have voted for another party in the constituency. That was likely to be SNP so many of the SNP constituency votes will have come from Greens.
@Paula Rose says: 9 May, 2016 at 10:07 pm
“Boris big a me I know but I’ve married dozens – the Rev does the wotsits and ronnie anderson gives me away.”
I thought you had giver yourself away long ago, Paula Rose?
But yon Ronnie Anderson has always been a richt clype.
;-))
DARFC.
Bill Fraser @11.46
You are right about the working class support for the Royals being lukewarm at best. However there are a large number of people, including my SNP voting wife, who would never be of a republican persuasion, so it is best not to scare them off. We need every Yes vote.
The basics of our constition will be sorted out after Independence
Wait and watch the ignorant, conceited, arrogant Greens bite the hand that feeds them. The Scottish taxpayers, They have form.
OT Paula Rose re bigamy.
“Bigamy is marrying one woman too many. Monogamy is the same” .Oscar Wilde
Big Jock @ 9 May, 2016 at 11:24 pm
They got gubbed in the last two elections and if there is any justice they will get gubbed next year.
I know it is essential to have a diversity of opinion in our political system and despite the state they are in, they simply aren’t going to disappear, but there needs to be an effort to rid them of Scottish politics.
They had occupied a space in Scottish politics before they sold out and that space can be occupied by another party. Tommy Sheridan has said on a number or occasions that standing on FTFP elections is a waste of time because his party will only get a few hundred votes. His party stood on an even more radical independence stance but it didn’t help him. If he cut out this Wolfie Smith nonsense, admitted that his politics is no longer relevant to the new political landscape and moved a bit more to the centre then Solidarity could quite easily occupy the space the old Labour party held and appeal to these voters.
Of course, this is wishful thinking. The British Broadcasting Corporation and the MSN will still continue to promote the Red Tories as a left wing party as part of their agenda and unfortunately there are enough people who are either gullible or just too set in their ways to change to believe it.
I see that a number of posters have already noted Labour’s continuing inability to get a grip over the constitutional question. Ex-MP Gemma Doyle, given the shove by her electorate at the last UKGE but still hanging around in London somehow, adamant that Labour has to remain steadfast for the Union, while Frank McAveety in Glasgow, looking forward with trepidation to next year’s council elections, takes the McLeish/Rowley line that Labour should have the “unique offer” of DevoMax. As if – for them – either position is credible.
It’s pathetic. Even now after all these years they still can’t decide what they actually believe in (besides some elixir to magically restore their former power).
I wonder how long it will take them to decide on this one. And then change their mind again…
@ Possible but doubt it they are too thin on the ground. The votes were they did stand are too low. It is far likely the votes were going the other way. (But could be) The (1st vote) Green is wrong ? – 130,000? – (2nd) vote 150,426. List vote still really low by comparison to 2Million (2nd) list votes. Total votes (Constutuency + List) 4.5Million. Could any Party be on second list but not first? – A longer list of Parties were on second list (paper). (Compared to the 1st List candidates) paper.
Crazy system. Does folk’s heid in.
@Lenny Hartley
The subsidy itself might be higher, but the fares for the passengers are way higher. Scrabster-Stromness 90 mins return 1 passenger + car = £146. Kennacraig-Port Askaig 125 mins return 1 passenger + car = £117.40. RET equivalent on the Scrabster route which is shorter would be around £100 maybe £90.
@Fireproofjim seen one man you’ve seen them all – I speak from experience.
Here’s one for all the political peaches out there (the easily bruised/offended). A bit geeky and focused on the semiotics of space and place but I thought it might be helpful. Especially for that poor, unfortunate Duncan H character.
link to ssoar.info
Henry McLeish and Rowley pushing the Home Rule boat out, pity it’s still tied up to the Westminster Quay:
link to archive.is
Harvie: Greens will back referendum if Scotland dragged out of EU
link to archive.is
The Greens are not a large enough Party to stand in many other seats. More like an irrelevant pressure group, but can they muck up others and waste public money, big time. They don’t have enough members, organisation or funds. For obvious reasons. Irrational policies and irreconcilable promises. Even in Independence they are hanging on the SNP’s tail.
SNP members fund the SNP that is why it is such a successful Party. Can carry out policies and are trustworthy. They can afford to keep their promises. So people complain some members do not do enough but they fund the Party. Those who can do, those who can’t still fund the Party. It benefits others and the vulnerable.
I am a bit bemused by those Yoons/Tories where ever they are voting the way they do because they feel a bit remote from Edinburgh.
FFS London and Brussels are even more remote from them. It is so effin lame. They bleat louder than effin sheep!
Of course just why should the SNP SG listen to or reward those quizzer voting shites in any way. There are some folk who will never vote Yes and throwing money at them or even giving them a shoulder to effin moan on will make not a blind bit of difference.
A very wise man once said:
“That your opponents refuse to capitulate meekly to your arguments is not a sign that they’ve lost their mind, nor that they’re unthinking disciples. It’s as sign that either your argument is fundamentally weak or that you’re conveying it badly.”
I agree almost entirely with everything in this article.
What do you think are the chances that the people it describes are going to find it a persuasive argument to change their position?
You are absolutely right but you are not persuading your target audience.
If your goal is Scottish independence you need to give that shit a rest and try something different.
The more we try to get these people to admit that they were wrong the harder they will resist doing so. For the sake of the greater good, let it go.
Please.
8:26 is that who I think it is?
There are 116.000 odd SNP members so that makes them definite SNP voters
Everybody else are “voters” so choose who they want on the day just the same as all the rest of the Parties
I think what I’m trying to say is, you can’t count on anything from anybody till it’s all over and it is now
EU stuff coming now, get that out of the way then remove the last remnants of those who don’t deserve to be named from the councils with our votes, and what do votes make?
Prizes!!
Labour can’t go anywhere towards Home Rule (Independently) in Scotland. Do not believe a word of it. They are still funded from London. Money is tight. That is why they are finished. London will never led them go. It is too shortsighted. They are finished too. They would rather destroy their Party then come to some compromise to let Scotland go and for them to stand on their own two feet, in their own right. Never done it before. Losers. They have constantly dragged Scotland down to prop up their nest in the rest of the UK.
That goes for all Unionist Parties in Scotland, funded from the South. Sucked on Scotland for far too long. Time is running out. Imagine the Unionists/Greens will start to be very nice to the SNP in Holyrood. They know their time is running out and the SNP know it too. The Unionists feathering their nests? Or do their usual irrational Kamilkaze act and like leemings fall over the cliff on top of each other.
@ Rock says at 11:05 pm …. ”Now that the election is out of the way, The National doesn’t need to reduce the SNP vote by promoting the Greens and RISE, until the next election. You will now see great “pro independence”, even “pro SNP” articles, to dupe gullible independence supporters.”
Try buying and reading the newspaper before you make comments about it. There’s been hundreds of excellent pro-Independence / pro-SNP articles and readers letters printed in it no doubt generating even MORE support for the party …. you know like when you come on here and Stu educates you and you trot off and inform others (that’s if YOU support Independence at all). The National is doing likewise. It is also not exclusively an SNP newspaper. It’s not the Scottish equivalent of the V?lkischer Beobachter. It supports Independence per se; all Independence factions and that’s the way it should be. I’m beginning to wonder if you’re actually Torcuil Chrichton incognito doing your utmost to get rid of your rival / close down every avenue we’ve got of getting the truth out there. Strange too that as everyone else on here takes the time to search for information and / or contribute constructively you never do just come on to wind people up and get your totally obsessional bit in about The National.
@ ronnie anderson says at 10:56 pm …. ”Earlier Alex Rowley Federalism in the UK. Frank McAveety on Stv DevoMax for discussion. No Hope for Slab anytime but Back to the Future, who said Dinosaurs were deed.”
Federalism? Devomax for discussion? We’ve been through all of this before. Their high heed Broon promised it all … including Home Rule … pre-Indyref and they went on to knock back every power we could have had during the Smith Commission talks through taking their orders over the phone from Milliband. I don’t know how their last few remaining supporters can stand them / their seesaw type behaviour because they give me the gip. They had their chance and they blew it. The terms stuck between a rock and a hard place, how the mighty fall and chickens coming home to roost come to mind. As a prior Labour voter I say good enough for them.
@ Rock says at 11:05 pm …. ”Now that the election is out of the way, The National doesn’t need to reduce the SNP vote by promoting the Greens and RISE, until the next election. You will now see great “pro independence”, even “pro SNP” articles, to dupe gullible independence supporters.”
Try buying and reading the newspaper before you make comments about it. There’s been hundreds of excellent pro-Independence / pro-SNP articles and readers letters printed in it no doubt generating even MORE support for the party …. you know like when you come on here and Stu educates you and you trot off and inform others (that’s if YOU support Independence at all). The National is doing likewise. It is also not exclusively an SNP newspaper. It’s not the Scottish equivalent of the V?lkischer Beobachter. It supports Independence per se; all Independence factions and that’s the way it should be. I’m beginning to wonder if you’re actually Torcuil Chrichton incognito doing your utmost to get rid of your rival / close down every avenue we’ve got of getting the truth out there. Strange too that as everyone else on here takes the time to search for information and / or contribute constructively you never do just come on to wind people up and get your totally obsessional bit in about The National.
@ ronnie anderson says at 10:56 pm …. ”Earlier Alex Rowley Federalism in the UK. Frank McAveety on Stv DevoMax for discussion. No Hope for Slab anytime but Back to the Future, who said Dinosaurs were deed.”
Federalism? Devomax for discussion? We’ve been through all of this before. Their high heed Broon promised it all … including Home Rule … pre-Indyref and they went on to knock back every power we could have had during the Smith Commission talks through taking their orders over the phone from Milliband. I don’t know how their last few remaining supporters can stand them / their seesaw type behaviour because they give me the gip. They had their chance and they blew it. The terms stuck between a rock and a hard place, how the mighty fall and chickens coming home to roost come to mind. As a prior Labour voter I say good enough for them.
For those worried about the Greens (especially Harvie) being potentially flaky on Indyref2, here’s what he said yesterday.
As reported in the Herald.
Speaking shortly after he unveiled his new team, which following a successful night last week has trebled in size, Mr Harvie said: “Greens support independence. I don’t think we’re ever going to argue against that position. What I have argued is that those on the pro-independence side who have almost seemed to be relishing the prospect of that Brexit scenario would be well advised to think carefully. I don’t think it’s the strongest context within which to continue to build the case that convinces those who weren’t convinced of independence.
“I’ve no doubt at all that if that scenario takes place, there will be many who will demand another referendum. But I suspect they will already be the people who were convinced in 2014. They won’t be the kind of people who felt uncertain in 2014 and those are the people that independence advocates need to engage with. The most important thing for us to do over the next month and a bit is to argue for every vote we can possibly win, in Scotland and across these islands, to stay in the EU. That’s what pro-independence supporters, I believe, should be trying to do.”
But pushed over whether he would support the SNP following a remain vote in Scotland but a leave majority UK-wide, which he admitted was “not impossible by any means”, he added: “If the Scottish Government came forward with a new independence referendum bill in that scenario, we’ll still be a pro-independence party and we’ll still argue for a Yes vote.”
Seems just what we’d all hope for to me. The takeaway is what he says right at the start “Greens support independence. I don’t think we’re ever going to argue against that position”.
That’s not only categoric and emphatic but he’s too shrewd a politician to say that without realising that there would be circumstances where that pithy line was thrown right back in his face. I think he can be trusted.
@ Ken500 according to wiki, the Greens Regional vote was 150,500 rounded up. Their Constituency vote was 13,000 ( Glasgow Kelvin and Edinburgh Central). So there were approx 137,500 Green votes which might have gone to another Constituency party. If many of them went the SNP that would explain some of the drop in SNP Region votes.
Andrew McColl: “I think he can be trusted”
He can maybe be trusted to do something in the very unlikely event that something very unlikely happens. I concur. As you say, not categoric or emphatic though so maybe he won’t.
Amazing that we could have any doubts about a party that defines itself as pro-independence.
Andrew McColl @ 1.08
Pat Kane said that in The National in his column on Saturday.
I voted for him as Rector of Glasgow Uni because I saw the SNP logo under his name around the campus. I was a mature student.
I later found out Nicola was his election agent – he won!
Can anybody come up with how much money the greens have cost us, the taxpayer, due to their objections to major projects that have since gone ahead, ie, Aberdeeb by-pass, A9, Trump golf cource,etc.
Can anybody come up with a figure that the Greens have cost the taxpayer due to their objections to major projects that have since gone ahead, eg, Aberdeen by-pass, A9, Trump golf course, etc.
link to theguardian.com
“Electoral register loses estimated 800,000 people”
“Overall 1.8% of voters are estimated to have dropped off the register across the population and figures compiled by the Labour party found the register had shrunk more dramatically in areas with a high population of students, such as Canterbury, which has seen a 13% drop, and Cambridge and Dundee West, both with an 11% fall.””
Dundee West with an 11% fall?
link to bbc.co.uk
Scottish Parliament Election 2016 – Turnout 51.6%
link to en.wikipedia.org
U.K. Parliament Election 2015 – Turnout 67.8%
link to thecourier.co.uk
“The turnout in Dundee West was up by 14% in comparison to the Scottish Parliamentary Elections in 2011.
However, compared to the 67.5% turnout at last year’s UK General Election and the 78.8% showing in the Independence Referendum, it is clear that engagement in the campaign has not been as high.”
(Assuming 67.5% is a typo and should have read 67.8%..)
The turnout for the U.K. Parliament Election 2015 was 11.00% less than the turnout for the Independence Reference?
The same as the percentage of voters lost from the new register is 11%
link to newstatesman.com
and Channel 4
cj
In case you think I was being harsh, I was hoping you would post again and was only trying to inprove the odds of folk reading you words. I might get to sleep now that’s off my chest. 🙂
The Greens in Scotland are just another branch office.
They are a UK party first and foremost. Worth remembering.
Personally I wouldn’t trust them to do the “right” thing in the same way I wouldn’t trust the National as a Newspaper.Just my personal view likes.
Two quotes from Anas Sarwar on Labour’s performance last Thursday.
“move past the independence referendum”
“Up against the binary situation where we have Unionism versus nationalism, that is a real difficult question for the Labour Party,”
Mmmmm, yes.
The problem for Mr Sarwar and of course Labour is that we know why Labour wants to ‘move past’ the referendum. They want people to forget what Labour did to them. They want us to forget the statements, the othering, the smears, the lies and the bill of goods sold as the VOW of ‘near federalism’. They want us to forget what they deliberately did to their own population. They want the public to forget the strategy of intimidation used on a massive political scale. They want us to ‘move past’ project fear.
Their message had nothing to do with olive branches or moving forward and everything to do with naked self preservation. That is Labour’s idea of ‘moving past’.
Then there is his description of that ‘binary situation’. As disingenuous and deliberately misleading as usual his choice of wording tells us a lot about Mr Sarwar and ‘moving past’. So let’s help the poor dear out by fixing his statement.
“Up against the binary situation where we have Unionism versus a. popular sovereignty – b. democratic choice – c. self government – d. independence (tick as preferred), that is a real difficult question for the Labour Party,”
I’m sure that’s what the nicely dressed salesman meant to say.
Bless. 🙂
labourhame.com/a-bruising-night-but-there-were-glimpses-of-a-better-future/
comments btl worth a look. dunkypoos in meltdown
We have our foot on the neck of Slab lets concentrate and stamp a little harder, maybe finally squeeze the last bit.
Like others here I canna thole Sarwar or Bailie !
Last nights TV showed them up as the absolute bump ties they are.
“Let’s discuss federalism and Devo Max” Doh !
Despite the shenanigans in ABZ , we should let the Greens be Greens … For now.
Turn our attention to the Tories and take aim.
From the BH film we should scream ” Hold …… hold …….. Hold”.
Open source is a term created to make free software more appealing where the emphasis is on the quality of the code rather on the philosophy of freedom.
The term Free Sofware means free as in speech not free as in beer Most opensource/free software is licenced under the GPL (Gnu Public Licence) written by Richard Stallman founder of the FFS (Free Software Foundation) and the GNU operating system more commonly but erroneously known as Linux, there is no restrictions in the GPL to selling software for cash
There would be no problem paying a software developer or company to write voting software and if licensed under the GPL would mean the source code is open to public scrutiny so that any malicious code would be quickly identified by anyone.
The city of Munich moved all it’s IT infrastructure to Free/open source software and apart from making the city a more open society has saved £millions in the process something we can learn from and consider imitating.
How much have the Green lost with their Non Green anti Democratic policies? £Billions which could have been better spent, All funded by the Scottish taxpayers whose lives they have mucked up at every opportunity, They have lost as much money as the Unionists with their non Green anti Demcratic policies which could have been better spent. £Billions. £13Billion a year in Scotland which could be better spent.
Sarawak speaks nonsense. His Party is funded by Westminster and that is where overall power will stay. Just speaking nonsense. Hoping to Con more people. They would rather destroy their own Party than honour any sense of Democracy in the UK.They are just out for themselves., always have been and always will be. They is why they joined a Unionist Party. Cameron doesn’t care about Scotland and neither do any of his Party members because they would not join a Unionist Party if they did. The fact anyone joins a Unionist Party (few do) concedes they do not care about Scotland or anyone else but themselves. No matter how much PR rhetoric they use taxpayers money to fund. Another expensive joke.
@CamernB Brodie 7.53pm
If the Borders Railway was build as a link in a chain, it will be the weak link; single track, non electrified line with minimal opportunities for trains to pass, and broken down trains can’t be recovered without major delays. The lack of capacity will endure because the construction was minimum spec and wasn’t future proofed. I believe the number of trains which run on time is 1 in 3.
The “Borders” railway is a myth too. The South of Edinburgh might benefit from commuter benefits, but the benefit for the Borders is two stations, Ettrickbank near Gala, and Stow, and even Stow had put up a fight to be included. For another 3 miles of track or so they could have connected Melrose but didn’t bother. The word “Borders” Railway is a flag of convenience for Edinburgh commuters, and the commitment to the Borders is half hearted to say the least. There are 2 1/2 stations in the Borders, but Gorebridge north to Edinburgh there are 7.
@Hamish100 7.30pm
If you think the Borders Railway is a success, you must take the same happy pills as Fergus Ewing and listen to the same exemplary cretins and rogues that he does. The railway is a pig in a poke and always has been. The money would have been better spent on the A7, but the SNP just didn’t want to listen and still don’t. That’s probably part of the reason they get regularly humped by the Tories.
The Greens are not Green. They are just sleekit. Renege on every Green policy for an easy life on taxpayers money. That is the problem. They just think everyone one else is Green, and of course they are. That is why the SNP Gov has carry out so many Green policies, always hampered by Greens and Westminster in every way possible,
Deputy Unionist Council Leader? – just pass the cash to renege on every Green policy and keep it quiet. Better PR actors than the Unionists and that is difficult. Wasting £Millions/Billions which could be better spent, overall. (UK)
Oh dear SLAB, it would appear that you have still learned nothing. Mind you, from the likes of Sarwar, you can’t expect any sense.
Henry McLeish, Rowley,Sarwar, we the people of Scotland have all moved on from the referendum, and there is no way that we would accept your home rule/federalism. To late dear boys, that ship has sailed 20 months ago. Remember the VOW and all the guff it promised. How did that work out again. We said it was shite, and that is what it served up, so go away and dinnae try that trick again. We would never believe you.
The hard choice you now find you have to make is which side you are on. the union side or the nationalist side.You already picked the wrong side in the indyref, so what have you learned hm?
Time to pick a side boys, nowhere else to hide, cause we see you for what you are.
So the tag team of Jackie Bird and Lord-in-waiting Alastair Darling tell us two days before the referendum that what will be implemented after a ‘No’ vote is devo-max. ‘Let’s call it devo max’ quoth Bird. Right?
Now Labour wants to have a discussion – well, mebbes, pehaps – about devo max, that thing they told us has already been delivered in full.
These shysters have no shame, no humility, and they have no intention of being honest with the electorate. Not ever.
That much should be crystal clear.
Labour Hame is a source of comfort. Whatever travails we have and whatever disagreements we have it is as nothing compared to the slab debate at present.
One side wants slab to detach completely and support indy- the other is desperate to keep flogging the dead horse until they disappear up here completely.
The negativity towards independence always amazes me as if no possible administration could make a go of an Independent Scotland. Is Duncan really arguing that a dream team of Kezia, Ian Murray, Iain Gray and Jackie Baillie couldn’t do a job(!!!) leading an Independent Scotland?
If he is arguing that then I don’t see how he can argue that these folk would be suitable to run Holyrood? Are they AMAZING at improving the NHS and schools and whatnot but would be lost on Defence and the Economy?
Some people are still not getting it. They have Green sympathies, that is your choice but a drop in the ocean votes on every count. For good reason, They are hanging in the SNP tails, not the other way round, On balance it could be better to lose them before they muck it up again. They are totally over-rated as it is, especially considering the damage they they do at every opportunity. They could be driving away voters in droves from the Independence cause, who see how they muck up, at every opportunity. More trouble than they are worth. Definitely. They will always remain an minority pressure group because of their behaviour, duplicity, out and out fraud and non Green commitment.
Looking back at the election, it appeared as if every political faction that ever existed got over-confident; they assumed we were independent already, it was safe to declare a ‘me too’ spree.
I’ve a feeling the cumbersome construction of the voting system was designed to attract ever cat and dog in the district.
Weegingerdug: ‘Union balls’.
Great article as usual and talking sense.
”We should expect it by now, the Unionist media in Scotland is a kind of British nationalist lottery machine. It feeds on the hopes and aspirations of the voters of Scotland, and it spews out a load of balls. I said before the election that if the SNP loses its overall majority, the only narrative in the Unionist press would be a crowing triumphalism that the wheels have come off the independence bandwagon and the Union is resurgent, and that’s precisely what they’ve done …….
The sad thing is that so many in the Yes movement have accepted the balls and are juggling them with enthusiasm. They’re occupying their time and energies bickering about other independence supporters. It’s toxic, it’s damaging, and the only beneficiaries are the Unionists and their botoxed silicon implanted assessment of the Ruth Davidson We’re Not Really Tories Vote Ruth Davidson Look at Me Sitting on a Tank Party. The more we attack one another, the more that the focus is removed from the fact that it was the Yes movement which won the election. Gaunie jist gie the attacks on other yes supporters a rest. This is the kind of pish that’s makes me glad I’ve given up on Twitter……
Instead of attacking one another, we need to turn our fire on the Tories who are now the main faces of Unionism, and we need to start building a consensus in Scotland that independence is the only way ahead if we want to protect our public services, not the vacuous photo-ops of a Conservative party that stands for austerity, privatisation, and the destruction of Scottish civic society. Let’s kick the Union balls off the park and get on with the real job, winning independence.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Marie Clark says:
10 May, 2016 at 8:14 am
Oh dear SLAB, it would appear that you have still learned nothing. Mind you, from the likes of Sarwar, you can’t expect any sense.
Indeed. Nothing at all.
Sarwar: “We tried, perhaps too early, to move past the referendum, and to talk about how we use the powers in our country to transform our country”
No shit, Sherlock. Well, here’s the rub – the people of Scotland will not move on until you address the constitutional question. And your Better Together chum, Ruthie will not let you move on. With the threat of another referendum she has you by the short and curlies, and guess what: She ain’t letting go!
Sarwar: “We are not comfortable nationalists and we are not comfortable unionists”
It’s going to get even more uncomfortable on the fence. For goodness sake, get smart and go full hog for devo max/FFA. It’s your only hope but unfortunately you may already be too late. Get off the fence, or suffer a humiliating death as a junior yoon party. Your choice, but I just know you won’t make it. RIP.
If there’s a split Scotland in / rUK out vote then I suspect Labour LDs and Greens will go for a Greenland solution. Scotland will quickly become a seperate country whilst still being part of the UK. Amazingly the same logic that allows them to remain outside the EU whilst Denmark is a member will be used in reverse.
As that would result in untying a lot that binds the UK together it might be seen as a logical next step on the road to independence. The drawback is obviously that it might actually be enough for some people and make them content. Making the people of Scotland happy is a risk I’d be willing to take.
@Tackety Beets
‘Lets discuss…’
So long as they do it amongst themselves then. The population have better things to do and a more pressing enemy to tackle… austerity economics.
Unfortunately for Sarwar and Bailie we’ve seen Labour’s idea of devo max and how they chose to sell it to the population. They dangled it like a carrot in front of the electorate’s faces to win a referendum then promptly snatched it away over the course of the Smith Commission and the Scotland Bill debates.
When FFA was tabled as an amendment during those debates I don’t recall Labour falling over itself to endorse Devo Max. I do recall ALL on the government benches cheering and laughing at Scotland’s representation. Yeah, I remember that very clearly. Another shameful action in that house to add to a great and shameful list.
It was a punitive action of course and intended to be seen as such. ‘Put the Jocks in their place.’ And Labour willingly aided and abetted. The party our country had not a little hand in creating did that to an electorate whom they begged and intimidated in equal measure to stay.
Those aren’t actions to be forgotten or forgiven.
In order to be forgiven, there has to be an act of contrition. Labour need to own their deeds and appeal to the electorate for forgiveness. THAT is how you move on in life. You take responsibility. You own up, ask for that second chance and move on together in new directions.
Labour are still too busy blaming everyone else for their crimes. ‘the public weren’t ready for their message’.
No shit Sherlock ‘we’re not ready’.
He’s quite a card young Sarwar. 😉
The reason for vote in the Borders and Orkney/Shetland is bad internet connection. Wait until they have connection back into the loop and realise how they have been juloosed. Won’t fancy being a target in that backlash.
@ schrodingers cat says at 7:21 am ….
labourhame.com/a-bruising-night-but-there-were-glimpses-of-a-better-future/
comments btl worth a look.”
SC the link didn’t show up. I’ve tried posting it again.
link to labourhame.com
Former General Secretary of Nato
Lord John Robertson warning against leaving EU
NO forces of Darknes NO Intergalactic Wars mentioned
They are only reserved matters if Scotland left the Union of UK.
Fek right & left aff Robertson as with Carrington & other X Nato secretariate.
Marie Clark says:
“SLAB … no way that we would accept your home rule/federalism. …. Remember the VOW and all the guff it promised.”
I agree. Lab talking like this, now, after all that has transpired is utterly despicable.
Lab (and LibDems) should have taken that position three years ago when the constitutional debate hotted up. They didn’t. Then the Vow betrayal.
There is now only one game in town. DevoNotMuch versus Indy. And they must know it.
I think all Scots Unionists need to ask themselves one question – should I now openly back Indy?
I would have thought Labour politicians, with their priorities of self interest, will begin to jump the Union ship at some point.
The reason there will be another Referendum when it can be won is because the Unionists cheated and lied to win. Start giving getting their vote back. It will be business as usual. Conning the public. That is not going to happen. Liar and cheats ultimately never win. The same old same old will not cut it.
Best Wings article ever.
I’m not sure if Jackie Baillie is dream team material but she has nice skin. I often look at her and think she’d make a nice belt for my sword. Baldric?
@Sandy says: 10 May, 2016 at 3:14 am:
“Can anybody come up with how much money the greens have cost us, the taxpayer, due to their objections to major projects that have since gone ahead, ie, Aberdeeb by-pass, A9, Trump golf cource,etc.”
That, Sandy, is the point I was making. The Scottish Greens seem to have a quite different set of ambitions for what an independent Scotland will become.
Until the arrival of humans Scotland was covered by, the almost impenetrable, Great Caledonian Forest and afterwards the humans cleared enough areas to grow crops.
As late as just under two hundred years ago there was still a Great Caledonian Forest and the Highlands and Uplands of Scotland were well populated.
It was a definite Westminster policy to subdue Scotland, and particularly the Highlands. Witness the clearances, the proscription of the Scottish languages, the wearing of tartan and the playing of the pipes.
As to the remnants of the Caledonian Forest. Much of that remained was used to build Royal Navy wooden ships when Britannia actually did Rule the Waves and lots more to provide charcoal for the smelting of iron to build the newer Iron hulled Dreadnoughts.
Not to mention the Westminster direct intent of such as Butcher Cumberland throughout Scotland. Compare the actions of Bonnie Prince Charlie after the battle of Prestonpans.
Edinburgh Royal Infirmary records record that the Prince ordered that his troops should not hunt down and kill the fleeing English troops and paid the Infirmary to treat both English and Scottish troops.
One year later Butcher Cumberland ordered his troops to seek out and murder all living things they could find including babes in arms and farm animals. The true history is that Westminster was determined to suppress all Scotland and the actions of Thatcher, and those who came after her, were following the same main idea of keeping Scotland down.
Now consider this – many Greens are of the opinion that the barren wasteland that is the modern Highland & Southern Upland areas of Scotland is the true natural state of Scotland’s landscapes. Yet hardly one single square inch of those areas is not a man made landscape.
What they did not change by destroying the forests they destroyed by clearing the Scots from their own lands and replacing them with sheep. A secondary result was that, as forest was prevented from re-growing by sheep eating the new young growth, the deer population increased and deer also graze young growth.
Yet the Greens fight tooth and nail to preserve that artificial state in Scotland. As you say – how much have they set back progress to return Scotland to its real natural state and to the Highland & Upland populations that existed before the dead hands of Westminster killed off the people of the Highlands, Islands and Uplands.
Breeks
I don’t know enough of the background to comment on the implementation and outcomes, however.
A Scottish HSR terminus would have required the upgrade of local feeder networks and associated infrastructure, thereby improving the connectivity, competitiveness and development potential of location near HSR stations. This appears to be the experience of European and Chinese HSR networks. The trans-European network was intended to help bind Europe together by helping to mitigate competitive disadvantages, such as distance from central Europe.
Scotland will be expected to pay for the enhancement of southern England’s link with the heart of Europe, the contracts are already signed with the EU and this project receives subsidiarity funding.
I’m not one to suggest it’s a tad inconvenient that the loony right are trying to foreseeable remove Scotland from the EU, allegedly. 😉
What a bag of washing. Thanks Better Together..
Unfortunately the Tories believe they are first class (the upper crust) of the population, and their votes are worth more than the working class. They are entitled to rule. The lower classes should know their place and be contented with their lot. The lower class yoons are just feart, simple.
Anyway, that is all finished. Time to work on winning independence, and ignoring the clear attempts by some ‘new names’ on here, trying to sow division. I really don’t care what one Joe or another on here thinks he knows about the Greens (most of it is tosh). Fact is, the election result ain’t gonna change, and as Alex Salmond always says, ‘politics is the art of the do-able’. Good advice.
Oh, and also for the record, many of those trudging the streets (I met them) for the pro indy cause during the referendum were greens – and that was BEFORE their big increase in post referendum membership.
Unionists want nothing more than to split the pro indy movement. Don’t want to sound patronising, but wise up folks.
Macart
But Macart, maybe slab mean it this time when they are talking about home rule? They must think we are all feeble minded.
For starters they could apologise for Project Fear, for the Vow, for siding with the tories during the referndum, for being the party with the weakest proposal during the Smith Commission, for opposing meaningful devolution, for their MPs opposing every amendment tabled by the SNP on principle so that we ended up with this dogs breakfast arrangement.
Then maybe, just maybe if they detach from the UK party and get behind independence they may just find they start attracting a new intake and they begin to actually renew.
A truly Scottish labour party which cuts itself off from the past and starts getting behind Scotland could be forgiven in time- they might even end up the beneficiaries of all the hard work by the SNP over the years.
I like this change-or-die narritive… its taking hold. It might be the only way they have of arresting decline.
As for home-rule it has been proven to be unachievable in practice and any attempt to revive the concept should be strangled at birth. Anyone who thinks home rule is ever going to be possible should watch the commons debate the Scotland bill again and again until it sinks in.
@ Robert Peffers. I don’t often disagree with you Robert but on this issue you are mistaken.
Greens do not fight tooth and nail to preserve barren grouse moor. If you read the websites of Andy Wightman and George Monbiot you find they advocate the complete opposite. It is wealthy landowners, many sitting in the HoL and legislating, who fight to preserve their right to “enjoy their property”.
Most people have no idea how much public money they award themselves for owning these massive estates.
I’ve given up on Ken500 and his curious obsession with planning matters but, please, let’s stick to the facts and not create enemies needlessly.
Presiding Officer: Johann vs Ken, round two
One Labour source said: “It’s up to the Nats. They’re going to have to decide whether they want a strong Presiding Officer who will stand up for the parliament, or a Labour patsy.”
link to archive.is
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
9 May, 2016 at 12:02 pm
“I think the biggest problems the SNP faced were apathy and complacency. When you are odds on favourite to win by a mile it does take the excitement out of an election.”
“Despite voters being told for months on end that the election was a foregone conclusion and they might as well not bother, the SNP increased its constituency vote by over 150,000. Funny sort of complacent apathy.”
ITS PRETTY OBVIOUS WHY THE STATE AND CORPORATE MEDIA WERE SAYING DAILY THAT THE ELECTION WAS A FORGONE CONCLUSION.
it was to dampen turnout on the Nat side and maintain the right-wing blue/red/yellow Tory influence over Scotland.
Robert Louis says: Stop the shit stirring and in-fighting.
I agree.
We have to deal with the situation, and not close off avenues because of past issues.
Who knows what opportunities may appear.
As long as it benefits Scotland and the majority of its people.
Petra @11.49pm 9th May
Here’s your herald article- Riddle Deepens over Ruth Davidson & Allegations of Election Fraud
link to archive.is
We don’t want the Herald profiting from click bait
@Tam Jardine
Couldn’t agree more Tam.
They’ve been given more than enough opportunities by the electorate. They binned every single one out of sheer self interest. They chose not to listen to what they were being told. They chose not to support those who had supported them for decades. They chose to project responsisbility for their failures and their actions onto anyone but…
They chose poorly.
@ Breeks – and o/t
I apologise for treading on your toes – I didn’t after your
first post.
Some actual facts about the Borders Railway.
It has trains every 30 minutes each way. It was built to the same standard as the majority of the Scottish network with routine line speed of 75mph, and weight limits up to heavy freight standards for the maintenance trains – and the “Flying Scotsman” if visiting
It carries more passengers than was estimated – not quite the same as “nobody wanted” it.
There are 3 stations in the borders at Stow, Gala and Tweedbank.
There are 6 stations up the line at Gorebridge, Newtongrange,Eskbank,Shawfair,Newcraighall and Brunstane.
Many sections of Scotland’s railways are single track – not only country branch lines like the Borders railway (2 short bits on the Glasgow-Aberdeen route), and passing places are limited unless traffic requires more.
Only intensive suburban lines or express mainlines justify double track and electrification at present. The Borders line does not.
Criticising the cost and then saying it should have cost more – double track and electrified – seems bizarre.
There are many other places that would like to be on the Rail Network, but many in the Borders didn’t want it – whatever the objectors who fought it may have wanted , it’s here now – get over it.
I don’t use the A7 often, and as I drive about 50-55mph I’ve found the 2 biggest delays are getting across the Sherrifhall Roundabout, and travelling the last 4-5 miles to my destination.
Then there is the cost of parking near anywhere I want to be.
I had thought the 2.4 children per household figure no longer applied, but regardless, many small businesses will appreciate any potential customers to replace those leaving the Borders.
I’m not going to bother commenting on your other claims, other than to say SBC isn’t perfect, but all politicians at whatever level are human, and thus less than perfect.
@The Isolater
The Scottish Greens are a wholly independent party from the Green Party of England & Wales. There has been no “UK Green Party” since it dissolved into the Scottish Greens and the GPEW in 1979.
Thanks, however, for broadcasting your ignorance and exposing your festering prejudice. No need to let facts get in the way of a good splenetic sneer.
Tam
Nail em up, I say. Nail some sense into em. 😉
link to youtube.com
Apologies if Christians still find this film offensive. I don’t. Let’s tolerate each other.
There should be a moratorium on the Green party or even the word `green` on this site for at least 2 weeks or a fortnight whichever comes first.
@ Call me dave says at 9:24 am …. ”Presiding Officer: Johann vs Ken, round two
One Labour source said: “It’s up to the Nats. They’re going to have to decide whether they want a strong Presiding Officer who will stand up for the parliament, or a Labour patsy.” link to archive.is
FGS please, please please don’t select Johann Lamont. The only person I can think of that would be worse than her, more of an embarrassment than her, is James Kelly …. Holyrood the laughing stock of the World … and paying a recycled loser 105 grand per annum. It just beggars belief.
@ Lollysmum says at 9:32 am …. ”Petra Here’s your herald article- Riddle Deepens over Ruth Davidson & Allegations of Election Fraud. We don’t want the Herald profiting from click bait.” link to archive.is
Thanks Lollysmum. I’m going to sit down tonight and get this (archiving) sorted out.
@ Robert Louis says at 9:22 am …. ”Anyway, that is all finished. Time to work on winning independence, and ignoring the clear attempts by some ‘new names’ on here, trying to sow division. I really don’t care what one Joe or another on here thinks he knows about the Greens (most of it is tosh). Fact is, the election result ain’t gonna change, and as Alex Salmond always says, ‘politics is the art of the do-able’. Good advice.
Oh, and also for the record, many of those trudging the streets (I met them) for the pro indy cause during the referendum were greens – and that was BEFORE their big increase in post referendum membership.
Unionists want nothing more than to split the pro indy movement. Don’t want to sound patronising, but wise up folks.”
Spot on Robert Louis. One of the main aims of this site is to encourage No voters to vote Yes next time round. The tone of some of the posts on here will be driving them away and adversely influencing their opinion that’s for sure. Maybe even putting some yes voters off and from personal knowledge I know definitely putting some yes voters off visiting this site altogether now.
Land reform, from the Greens manifesto, selected bits:
“Cheaper land for better housing. We propose the repeal of provisions in the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1959 to allow local authorities to acquire land for housing at existing use value. This will encourage public sector led development of higher quality housing of all types”
“Freeing up vacant land for homes. Current subsidy arrangements create an incentive to keep land out of productive use. Green MSPs will campaign to ensure that all vacant and derelict land pays non-domestic rates. This will generate funds for local authorities and encourage the use of such sites. We will also support compulsory sale orders to enable local councils to make best use of vacant and derelict land”
“Land value tax. Scottish Greens will work to replace the current system on non-domestic rating with a land value tax. In the shorter term we will argue for all land to be entered on the valuation roll with appropriate reliefs granted if justified.”
*This would have the effect in time of making it expensive for large landowners to loll about having a few pals over for shooting every year or two.*
“Extending land rights. Green MSPs will support widening inheritance rights to land by giving children equal rights to inherit land, as they already have for other types of property. We will advocate the enactment of the Scottish Law Commission’s 2003 Report on the Law of the Foreshore and Seabed, which is designed to modernise the law relating to public rights. And we’ll campaign for greater legal protection for common land.”
*The inheritance rights thing will in time split up large estates, would take some generations.*
The Greens are the BEST of the parties for making Scotland’s land work for its people, not the worst. Their 6 MSPs are worth their weight in gold just for that.
link to greens.scot
Anyone can enjoy the land in Scotland. There is ‘a right to roam’. Anyone one can roam on it at will and do. In their millions. It is actually an asset. The one’s who try and stop people roaming in it are the handful of Greens. They are the one’s who collude with the Landowners and are funded by them to stop public access. Who think they will never be held to account? When they are ruthless, irresponsible operators who know exactly what they do, but don’t give a damn. They are obsessed.
People are more Green and keen. Most don’t give a damn who owns the land, they do not want to, as long as they can wander about it at will. Enshined in Law. Anyone who tries to stop that will cop it. Taxation is another matter, not to be confused. The SNP are even tackling that putting up rates etc. as no other Political Party has done.
Compare that to the rest of the UK. Private keep out signs everywhere. Some come to Scotland and try and do that not realising it is illegal.
Let Rowley and co bleat on about Home Rule. They don’t mean it. They’re looking at next year’s council elections, as should we.
Labour’s humiliation was a 3 year plan. Last year, this year and now next year.
Let’s keep focussed on the Tories for now. The SNP will run the country just fine.
When we take the Councils, as we surely will, then Labour can think about what to do. In truth I’ve no idea what that will be and care less. I think the stark choice outlined above re with Ruthie or the Scottish people will actually intensify for them.
Diddums.
we’ve seen Labour’s idea of devo max and how they chose to sell it to the population. They dangled it like a carrot in front of the electorate’s faces to win a referendum then promptly snatched it away over the course of the Smith Commission and the Scotland Bill debates.
When FFA was tabled as an amendment during those debates I don’t recall Labour falling over itself to endorse Devo Max
then again, if slab come out for ffa, could the snp not simply re-table this in some form at WM, then labour can support it to prove it, no one would believe them otherwise. indeed, if enough tories get done for electoral expense fraud, it might even pass.
Now consider this – many Greens are of the opinion that the barren wasteland that is the modern Highland & Southern Upland areas of Scotland is the true natural state of Scotland’s landscapes
Now consider this – yer talking bollox peffers
Since the SNP has (quite rightly in my opinion) decided not to nominate a potential Presiding Officer, they have to be very careful in which candidate they support.
I believe, having been Deputies in the last parliament, either John Scott of Elaine Smith should get first dibs at succeeding Patricia Marwick. I know little of Ms Smith, but, reckon John Scott, who is from the old-style “One Nation” wing of the Nasty Party, and a gentleman into the bargain, would be a good choice.
Johann Lamont or Ken Macintosh – please NNNNNOOOOO!!!!!
Regarding the election result, I don’t think the stats support the idea that the SNP failed to GOTV. As Stu has repeatedly pointed out, the SNP vote is up.
Is it not much more likely that those that stayed at home were mainly the Yes voting Labour voters? Call it an abstention if you like.
Yes is (still) not equal to SNP.
sleekitken500
The one’s who try and stop people roaming in it are the handful of Greens.
you’re also talking bollox..
link to andywightman.com
Land tax how will that work? A Land tax could put up housing costs, foods costs and damage exports and increase imports. Losing £Billions and hitting the most vulnerable. Losing jobs. Money doesn’t go on trees. Throwing out the baby with the bath water. Land is tax free to keep farms together. Larger farms produce more that is why Scotland is self sufficient in food, water, energy and (whisky) exports. With it’s abundant resources. Raising £54Billion in taxes. The Greens are not the best Party for Scotland’s overall economy.
Not to be confused with a fairer, equal progressive taxation system that cuts down in tax evasion (UK Gov territory). Along with Oil sector tax (UK Gov territory). A one horse trick Party. They can write and demand anything they like. It doesn’t make it right. Held to account. The UK Gov taking the CAP payment made to Scottish farmers who receive the lowest CAP payment in the EU as part of the UK.
@ the promotion on the VisitScotland website.
Meiow milking it. Losers
Dr Ew
Not going to get into an argument here but your reference to “splenetic sneer” is a touch unfortunate as you have referred to SNP supporters as ” puritanical” and “Orthodox” but thanks for your concern over my post.
Those Greens supporting independence great… and if that’s you thank you.Other than that enjoy your day.
Johann Lamont said Scots weren’t genetically programmed to make decisions, so why is she even in Holyrood, the woman’s a disgrace
Ken MacIntosh opposed all powers coming to Holyrood in case progressive decisions were taken at some time in the future so it was better to avoid that by not devolving any
The man’s a disgrace
The Labour party’s proposals on the Smith commission were the least of all the parties and then when those same proposals were going through the Commons they voted against every single amendment
The totality of Region9(Labour party) is a complete disgrace
If anybody should be the Presiding officer make it a Liberal Democrat from Orkney and Shetland and then we can make them have the final decision over the rest of Scotland NOT subsidising their Fukcing ferries anymore seeing as how they don’t consider themselves a part of Scotland,full fiscal autonomy I say £20 for a fukcing loaf £10 for their fukcing copy of the Guardian
Maybe the land rush from the settlers will slow down at the thought of that and folk who are actually born there might afford a house instead of having to leave because they can’t compete with hundreds of thousands of pounds for a shed to renovate
Ranted a wee bit there, I do apologise, I’ll go and put some cold water on my wrists…. before I fukcing slit them…..Damn did it again!!
@ yesindyref2
good post. Useful to introduce a few facts to the discussion!.
I don’t think the stats support the idea that the SNP failed to GOTV. As Stu has repeatedly pointed out, the SNP vote is up.
up since 2011, but the referendum changed many things, voter participation for one, but compared to the ge of 2015 it is down.
the only group up in 2016 are the tories, by about 65%
turnout from 2015 ge
snp 1,454,436
slab 707,147
tory 434,097
lib 219,675
turnout from 2016 he
snp 1,059,897
lab 514,261
tory 501,844
lib 178,238
I don’t comment on here a lot because it’s difficult. I am not recognised every time I comment and then have to type in name and e mail address for every comment.
It doesn’t happen on other blogs, but is so annoying because Wings is my main source of information. I pop in and out every few hours. I have an iPad. If anyone recognises this problem and could help, I would be eternally grateful.
@Robert Louis 9.22am.
I entirely agree with you. Before the Indy Ref, the GE, and this election, there appeared new names throwing dissent amongst us.It was really obvious, but some folk on here, made the thread difficult to read when they argued consistently with them. They disappear afterwards. Trolls won’t comment if they are ignored!
I hope Stu has a good long break and some people on here should contemplate life without Wings and draw back from slinging insults.
We need to take on board YES and work hard for next years Council elections. We are keeping our SNP hub open and already talking about next year. Stop fighting from your armchairs, some folk, and get out and help!
65%
typo
65K
Some discussion on this thread regarding the Borders Railway.
I tend to look on this as a case of: “If you build it – they will come”. I have previously posted on other threads here, my own experiences of re-opened railways.
Back in the 1990s, Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive, as was then, re-opened several stations which had been closed by Dr Beeching. My own village station was one of these.
I then got a new job and discovered, by using the local station and an “All-Zones SPT card”, it would be an awful lot cheaper for me to commute by train. For the first two years, I was the only person who got on and off the trains I regularly used on a daily basis.
By the time I finished that job, taking an early-retirement deal – there were ten regulars travelling.
Today, a decade later, two of my grand-sons are among more than 20 daily commuters from the station on the trains I used to use. Also, the number of daily trains has increased and these are being well-used locally.
I would expect the same growth to happen on the Borders.
That, however, should not take away from the half, in a proper United Kingdom, of equal parts, the re-opening of the old Waverley Line ought to have been designated as a line of national importance, and funded from UK central government funds, electrified, and double-tracked.
A UK government, which genuinely believed we were “Better Together” and in “The broad shoulders of the UK”, would have seen to this.
We need to take on board YES and work hard for next years Council elections
how do you propose we do that? how many candidates will the snp in nef stand in each ward?
@schrodingers cat
There’s a few immediate problems I could see on that path, not least of which is the PLP. I’d seriously doubt they’d adopt such a stance simply to help out the northern branch. Secondly Labour UK would have sell the option not simply to Scotland’s electorate, they’re going to have to explain that one to the rest of the UK electorate and there are the same constitutional barriers in place via commons and HoL that have always existed to further autonomy.
Finally there is the historical misuse of devo max as an electoral tool to leverage votes from the electorate. Its been sold so many times, under so many guises by the same suspects, who on earth COULD or WOULD believe a thing they had to say on the matter other than their own rump vote?
No, I suspect this time, it will be and should be, a straight fight.
“Those Greens supporting independence great… and if that’s you thank you.”
They’re a superfluous party. Hence I can’t vote for them.
Every party should have a dedicated set of green policies.
@Petra
There’s a lot of patsies in the labour but it’s buggin’s turn.
Let it be so… 🙂
Council elections soon.
I think its worth investigating the role of Conservative Central office in the Holyrood election, considering the surge in Tory turnout must have been achieved somehow. The same pattern runs across every single constituency. Was it a spontaneous mass turn-out inspired by Ruthies anti-referendum stance?
Remember the Scottish Tory conference? About 100 oldies sitting in a room?
And consider the election fraud investigations in up to 29 English Tory marginals right now where central funding was used to boost GE2015 campaigns in targeted constituencies, then covered up.
Somebody posted a link to Lynton Crosbies role in the HE2016 election a few threads back but I cant find it.
If this surge was organised and run from down south, would that be a breach of electoral law?
@ Flower of Scotland. It is a problem with the site, possibly not sending cookies to recognise your login. Most of us have to click into the Name and Mail dialogue boxes then type a couple of letters of your login to be offered the choice. It’s a nuisance.
@ Breeks
What we see Breeks is a mistake we made years ago when we first give the tories a skelping,we throught they were done but instead they concentrated on certain areas putting everything they had into them and creating little tory strongholds across the border.
We let them do it because we knew the fight was going to be Glasgow and had our eyes elsewhere,well we have done that now its time to turn our attention once more on the nasty party.
And the SNP must lead the charge in Southern Scotland and not let the tories take credit in these areas for SNP government policy.
In fact i would go as far as to say we should move the indy movement out the cities and down to the lovely borders and have a sing song and a bit of a party,if any of our movement needs cheered up its them.
macart
that was my point, they can call for gold plated ffa if they want, but to be believed, they would need to prove it
the snp revisiting this at wm would blow any slab credability out of the water when corbyn rejected it.
they would have no choice but to split completely from corbyn before even proposing it or any other further powers
probably why dunkypoos is in melt down
link to labourhame.com
barbara
I’m Labour through and through but voted YES and will vote SNP until the day we are independent.
When that day comes I strongly believe that – assuming Scottish Labour actually get the right people in the right positions – we will GOVERN an independent Scotland, almost unchallenged … or at least we would have done if the “top” Scottish Labour people had caught on to this earlier … I fear it”s too late now.
Reply
Duncan Hothersall
I’ve got news for you: you’re not “Labour through and through” if you are consistently voting for a party which not only opposes Labour but has as one of its core aims the destruction and replacement of the party.
reply
barbara
Ive got news for YOU – I’ve been voting labour most likely since you were a kid.
Scotland being part of the UK is not a core “labour value”.
You just demonstrated exactly why Scottish labour is a complete shambles – you seem to think it’s the VOTERS’ fault that you are dying. Wake up.
dunkpoos…………Um
snigger
Alarm bells are sounding for McAveety as he sees his gravy train head for the tunnel & The Pieman alas will have to resort to eating pies again.
@ Petra, an excellent stab at solving the Rock mystery, the sex was never clear & Torcuil Crichton fits the bill admirably. The Admirable Crichton in fact!
@ Tam Jardine, Gaelic is not yet extinct on mainland Scotland & there are folks domiciled much further from Edinburgh than the Borders who binned the Tories yonks ago.
@ Dave Robb, good post on the Borders railway, much pish has been passed on this subject, might even be prostate trouble?
It’s incredible how stupid Slabour are. They are continuing as before. Lets have another discussion on more powers. We have heard this from the year dot. Didn’t Dugdale mention last year that she thought the new powers were more than enough, and she wanted no more!
So they find themselves humiliated and decide they now want more powers. The home rule they talk about relies on another government authorising this, which is never going to happen. This is just sounding off about feck all. It’s like they want to die in public.
Why are people like McCleish even bothering trying to resusitate the festering corpse of Slab. Move on! Scotland has why can’t you.
Unfortunately for them there are only 2 choices Independence or Unionism! There is no third way. They have already decided it’s Britain they want more than Scotland. The 45 plus have been cast aside. They have abandoned the people who kept them in power for 50 years.
Slabour are going down and this is the beginning of the end. After the council ellections in 2017 only 10 months away they die. They better start looking for another party.
Dunkypoos
Labour is solidarity and common cause, not nationalism and I’m alright Jack.
Me Bungo Pony
I seem to remember “I’m alright Jack” was one of the core messages of Better Together. Labour were completely on board with that.
You will have to wait until the millions of voters who lived through the New Labour years have either forgotten them or joined the choir triumphant before any link between socialism and Labour will ever be considered anything but ironic.
ha ha ha ha ha
@SC
You know of course, that I meant, being part of the grassroots’ YES, not standing candidates.
Thanks Capella.
@Ken500
It’s not about roaming at will, it’s about repopulating and growth, beneficial use of land, and reversing depopulation. And that’s affordable housing all over the highlands and islands. Wightman is recognised by many to be a key reformer and even some of those wanting SNP + SNP in the election still wanted him to get in, precisely because he is THE recognised land reformer.
The first stage is indeed the register, but any reform has to be very careful about tackling large estates head on. Some are indeed owned and lay fallow by absentee owners, but some are also used beneficially for the benefit of the community.
That I guess is the meaning in the Green manifesto of “appropriate reliefs granted if justified”, and if not it should include that. Some system of points perhaps.
But first stage is registration of ownerhsip, then evaluation. Perhaps even land rent actually assessed, but as the first stage of that, automatic 100% relief if just applied for on an annual basis. Then year by year the questions get harder and harder, and burden of proof of “beneficial use”, moved on to the landowner.
You can game FPTP. The Unionists have just proved that.
You can’t game the PR AMS system. I think we agree that doesn’t work!
However, you can game the STV system in local elections.
There are multi candidate wards and typically parties avoid putting up too many candidates because. This would split their vote and let a single candidate from another ward in.
In my own ward, last time, there are three seats and each party put up only one candidate.
In places where STV is understood by voters, it doesn’t work like that. Parties put up multiple candidates and explicitly tell their supporters to vote Ms A 1, Mr B 2, Ms C 3.
This works. If you party is popular, as the SNP currently is, you can take 2-3 seats in a multi seat ward.
If you don’t get the message to supporters on order and they randomly give first preference to A,B or C, then they split their vote and potentially get nothing.
Food for thought!
@Dave Robb.
The number of passengers using the railway is on target to be less than half the 2.8 million predicted by Harcrows feasibility study for the Scottish government.
The reason only one train in three runs on time is due to line being one long bottleneck, with much of the infrasture restricted to single line refurbishment rather than futureproof capacity for upgrading to two lines. Seems the railway line is even harder than the A7 to get passed a slow moving or fixed obstruction.
I note too, your alledged justification for the borders railway is Edinburgh congestion at Sherrifhall. QED. Perhaps a more enlightened strategy would be to encourage the relocation of commerce from Edinburgh out into the hinterland and avoid the need for people to clog up the roads or railways at all, but given the level of corruption in the Borders, such investment wouldn’t get further than Galashiels anyway. Not unlike the railway come to think of it.
Your claim that SBC isn’t perfect is a masterful example of understatement. Rancid, dysfuntional and rotten to core is at least accurate.
Correction above
I meant to type “candidate from another PARTY in”
Sorry. I should read before hitting send 🙁
Read the heading as ‘the separation of goats’.
(Watching too much ‘Game of Thrones’, methinks).
@ Capella, difficulty posting also, have to enter 2016 in the date box each time?
@Capella says: 10 May, 2016 at 9:24 am:
“Robert Peffers. I don’t often disagree with you Robert but on this issue you are mistaken.”
I respect your right to disagree, Capella. but there is ample evidence of the involvement of Green activists in such disgraceful actions as the protracted opposition to the proposed Aberdeen bypass roads.
Here is a direct cut & paste of what Patrick Harvey himself said about the Aberdeen bypass that delayed this vital work for so many years. This opposition cost Scotland’s taxpayers a great deal of money to fight the Greens and many years delays
From the Scotsman :-
link to scotsman.com
” … Most people have no idea how much public money they award themselves for owning these massive estates.”
I’m not most people, Capella and I know the facts.
“please, let’s stick to the facts and not create enemies needlessly.”
Are you attempting to tell me the Greens did NOT object to the Aberdeen bypass? That and many other vital infrastructure schemes to make Scotland a modern, vital and prosperous independent country.
Here is another cut & paste from, “The Gaurdian”:-
There are countless other direct examples of totally stupid Green objections and they are mainly based upon really unscientific theories. No one is more committed to real scientific anti-pollution measures than I am. I was fighting for such things as the early hydro schemes and other such advances in the late 1940s/early 1950s.
I am also, after a 15 year involvement in RADIAC, (RadioActiveDetectionIndicationAndComputaion), Well versed in the truth that the Nuclear Power Industry is scientifically the most dirty, dangerous, polluting and expensive form of converting energy into electric power in the World.
The claim it is clean only refers to the actual power station and ignores the mining, milling, processing, waste storage and transporting of the ore and actual nuclear fuel. It also ignores the disposal of the spent fuel and the costs of decommissioning the old power plants.
Flower of Scotland says:
@SC
You know of course, that I meant, being part of the grassroots’ YES, not standing candidates.
ok, im just unsure how we can gain the required seats for the snp (let alone for yes/greens etc) in each ward
as gala says above, to win more than one seat in a 3 seat ward, we would need to draw an imaginary line through the ward then run 2 different campaigns in each ward
eg
northern part of ward
1. joe bloggs snp
2. jane doe snp
southen part of ward
1. jane doe snp
2. joe bloggs snp
Im not saying we couldnt do this but it would be a massive under taking, and organisation
eg in nef, 5 wards
cupar and st andrews 4 seat wards
howe, taybridge, east neuk 3 seat wards
that would require us to run about 10 different campaigns with 10 different sets of leaflets etc…
not impossible, but very difficult. even if we did do this across the whole of fife, and won control of the council, it is unlikely to win the snp control of all 32 councils
you could even ask everyone in a ward to vote
3. greens or rise etc
but i doubt that would win them any seats at all. bit pointless
the local electoral system is far more complex than the holyrood one
. Then year by year the questions get harder and harder, and burden of proof of “beneficial use”, moved on to the landowner.
Then what, nationalise the Highlands and Islands? Good luck.
Breeks: “The number of passengers using the railway is on target to be less than half the 2.8 million predicted by Harcrows feasibility study for the Scottish government.”
If proven true – and it runs counter to the low estimates opponents argued would happen – it’s not justification for leaving the borders region without railway access. Bottleneck problems are a good reason for Scotland to keep what it earns in taxes.
Are we expecting George Osborne to step in and announce an upgrade for the A1 to motorway standard? How many more decades do we wait?
The deflated farage balloon whimpers in defeat. 🙂
He should be deselected, even for his dress sense,…I mean geez!
link to archive.is
A commenter on The Herald has come up with a godd nickname for our Tubby Little Tankie – The Ruthsfuhrer.
@schrodingers cat
Well that’s a thought right enough. 😀
Oh, and yep, I did read that wee piece on LH and read the comments. They tore Dunky a new one and rightly so. Hothersall and folk just like him brought a once great movement to its knees. He’s earned every single bit of grump headed his way.
I hope those folks realise our hand is out and that we could use their help.
AhuraMazda at 8.51
You’d better be fast. I hear Greenpeace are down at Helensburgh trying to get her back in the water
Grouse Beater says:
Every party should have a dedicated set of green policies.
The very existence of the Green Party forces the others to have greener policies or layout their desire for global warming.
@big jock
Labour – ‘it’s like they want to die in public’
So true
Macart
if slab were to adopt an independence line
dunkypoos would need to join the tories…..
ha ha ha ha ha
nae wonder he is in meltdown
I think if Slabour adopeted independence , they know that no one would believe them. So it’s like being diagnosed with a terminal illness. Do you go and blow all your money in Las Vegas and die anyway, or do you try and prolong the agony by doing what you have always done and die anyway.
Given most Slabour MSP’s are in it for the salary,and are terminally stupid. They will try and live as long as possible without risking their incomes.
Either way they are dead in 5 years.
The very existence of the Green Party forces the others to have greener policies or layout their desire for global warming.
Except it doesn’t. Check out UK.gov scrapping renewable subsidy for example.
All the Green’s do in Scotland is block stuff. Green’s in Scotland are middle and upper class who do not want nice fields and woodland destroyed for horrible horrible things, like roads, or golf resorts built by horrible horrible Americans.
Greens blocked Aberdeen’s by-pass and because of that block, an already decades late mess of a non infrastructure plan for the north east of Scotland has added over £1.2 billion construction and borrowing costs.
Maybe all countries like teamGB have sleepy back waters like the North East of Scotland, where Greens can retire to, peacefully enjoying their Scotland region that they never want to see any changes in.
So much for Europe’s oil capital. Stavanger’s a much smaller oil town that Aberdeen but the place has beautifully thought out modern transport infrastructure and is actually Green. Its just not been run by yoonster red and blue tories or Greens. Funny that.
Grouse Beater it seems SBC and Scottish Enterprise routinely manipulate feasibility studies, that is if they actually carry them out at all, to beef up funding for white elephant projects which defy gravity and logic when perceived by the local community.
That’s bad enough, but they also sit in their ivory towers and shit on local initiatives which actually do stack up.
It just isn’t right that this circus is allowed to continue without effective audit, appraisal or rigourous investigation. All the Scottish Government will do is put a different chicken in charge of the fox house.
The latest craze seems to be spending 100 million on flood defenses, which will no doubt rumble into 300 million, for flooding which peaks for a couple of critical hours. More rational suggestions suggest more planting of vegetation up the catchment areas to slow down the run off for a mere fraction of the cost. But you just know come hell or high water, (sorry lol), you just know they will find a way to spend their 100 million, and I’ll give you good odds on who actually gets the work.
Allan Grogan
As former National Spokesperson for Labour for Indy. If there is a new launch for Independence this summer sign me up. #indyref2
if yes is to relaunch this summer, i dont think it should be headed by an snp place man. the leader/s would need to be chosen by the grass roots
i quite like grogan and mcalpine, any thoughts on other potential leaders?
Schrod- Derek Bateman!
RE The Borders Railway I am happy to accept that for financial reasons it had to be built with single track sections.
However, what I will never comprehend is why it was not future-proofed by laying the single track sections on one side of the trackbed which would have made future double tracking easy and would avoid closing the line while the single track bits were ripped up and relaid on one side.
Similarly it would not have cost much more to build the overbridges with clearnce for double track working and to allow enough height for future electrification however unlikely that looks at present.
Surely the additional cost of initially building with such future proofing would pale into insignificance compared with the cost and inconvenience of carrying out the work retrospectively.
@Petra says: 10 May, 2016 at 9:57 am:
“Oh, and also for the record, many of those trudging the streets (I met them) for the pro indy cause during the referendum were greens – and that was BEFORE their big increase in post referendum membership.
Unionists want nothing more than to split the pro indy movement. Don’t want to sound patronising, but wise up folks.”
Sheesh! Stop apologising for the Greens, Petra. Perhaps it is you who needs to wise-up.
If the Greens, who are not adverse to criticising the SNP as, for example, Patrick Harvey did as I have quoted up-thread, (The Aberdeen Bypass & Queensferry Crossing).
Then they would be extremely thin skinned if they were to scuttle off in a huff when SNP members criticise them or their party.
Constructive criticism is a healthy thing and it cuts both ways. Your point that there were hard working Greens, “Before”, is poor logic as it bears out my point that they were ready to work for a cause THEY also believed in.
Tell me this, has there been a mass exodus of SNP members due to Harvey’s criticism of the SNP SG over the Aberdeen bypass and the Queensferry Crossing?
Of course not – for the very good reason that we and they belong to different political parties. If we shared every policy exactly there would be no need for there to be two different parties.
Another thing is that if constructive criticism were to drive Greens from their commitment to independence then their commitment was weak in the first place.
I’ve had more than my fair share of pelters from Green individuals and they from me. We still remain friends and we still belong to different political parties. I say again – constructive criticism is a healthy sign. I’d go as far as say it is an essential thing.
I’m not about to compromise my principles in order to placate some thin skinned, over-sensitive, member of a different party. Especially a party, or party member, not at all adverse to criticising me, the SG or the SNP.
@ Robert Peffers, some would argue that nuclear power stations are “vital” infrastructure. But clearly you support Green policy in opposing them. Dual carriageways aren’t “vital” either IMO. The Swiss put lorries on railways.
But as to the particular case of the Aberdeen Bypass there is a perfectly legitimate planning process, protagonists on all sides. Should it be short-circuited for dual carriageways but not nuclear power stations?
SNP have set the pace with their Green policies, and are regularly mentioned on the international scene as ambitious and progressive.
I genuinely don’t think the Green party have much to teach them on this.
To block upgrade of roads is stupid in the extreme, and denies economic progress.
I’m satisfied that SNP Green policies are consistent with their love of the beauty of the country.
The great con that is The National still boosting far lefties of the scotland region today
Boyd want abandon us
“AFTER the referendum I could have walked away from radical politics. I could have joined the political mainstream, or continued in a job that paid well. I might’ve, in retrospect, preferred to have hidden from the harsh realities that come from life in the public eye.
However, that would have meant breaking the promise I made to working-class people in meetings across Scotland, my promise that we would never abandon them whatever the result. That’s why, along with many others, I began the allegedly impossible – and still unfulfilled – task of bringing about left unity.”
The National played a blinder,
1. Boost far left tiny minority, guarantee us SNP majority
2. Terrify toryboy world in Scotland the far left are coming to get them. Assure YESers to chillax, its an SNP easy win, no need to bother going to polling centres.
Very UKOK cunning.
@schrodingers cat says: 10 May, 2016 at 10:17 am:
” … Now consider this – yer talking bollox peffers”
YES! DEAR!
THERE! THERE! THERE!
if yes is to relaunch this summer, i dont think it should be headed by an snp place man. the leader/s would need to be chosen by the grass roots
Ivan McKee is your man, he impressed me very much the last time around with his no nonsense approach to the tv interviewers.
Blair Jenkins just sat and gave a silly smile.
On the subject of a Land Tax how about the following simple idea:-
An Annual Tax of £50 or £100 per complete acre per annum for all land not used for Agricultural use i.e. arable or livestock farming with additional relief for the likes of Golf Courses and Sports Grounds. Livestock Farming would only apply to domesticated animals.
Punitive rates would be applied to Land Banks held speculatively by builders and other property developers.
As very few house owners have gardens extending to an acre or more I can’t see such measures being other than popular.
The Ruthsfuhrer will keep us in step.
“”Grouse Beater says:
10 May, 2016 at 11:23 am
Breeks: “The number of passengers using the railway is on target to be less than half the 2.8 million predicted by Harcrows feasibility study for the Scottish government.”
If proven true – and it runs counter to the low estimates opponents argued would happen – it’s not justification for leaving the borders region without railway access. Bottleneck problems are a good reason for Scotland to keep what it earns in taxes.
Are we expecting George Osborne to step in and announce an upgrade for the A1 to motorway standard? How many more decades do we wait?””
———————————
Passenger numbers on the Borders railway passed 500,000 in January this year. The forecast for annual passenger numbers was 650,000. In the run up to finally building the railway some modelling gave the annual passenger numbers around 24,000 which was actually fewer than the number using the bus.
It is interesting that Christine Graham MSP was the first to raise the issue of the Borders Railway in the Scottish Parliament.
Maybe the reason some people in the Borders don’t want the railway is that they would prefer to live in their own wee bubble. They did not want the permanent home for the Great Tapestry of Scotland either.
@schrodingers cat says: 10 May, 2016 at 10:24 am:
” … The one’s who try and stop people roaming in it are the handful of Greens.
you’re also talking bollox..
YES! DEAR!
THERE! THERE! THERE!
@ Legerwood, mebbes shifting the border & pruning dead wood is the answer?
But Ivan McKee is now an SNP MSP, and thank goodness for that
I recently travelled 300 miles in the company of a very nice lady lady
from the borders and from what she was saying it DOES seem that they don’t want the railway and don’t want the tapestry either!!
I’d suggest that whilst the railway cannot be ripped up , consideration should be given to reversing
the decision to locate the tapestry in the borders – there are many other towns which would welcome a tourist attraction
You’re so right Legerwood. Let the bastards eat cake.
How about laying off the Greens for the next 5 years? we are doing the oppositions work for them.
Re: Borders railway. 2.8m passengers would be a hell of a lot of passengers. That is a three coach train running every half hour for about 18 hours a day, 365 days a year packed to the gunnels.
Is 2.8m not the maximum potential capacity?
In other news I see Johann does fancy being presiding officer and I saw on the James Kelly site that Patrick has said that the Greens would back an Indy2 if there was a material change like Brexit…that should annoy Ruthie tank commander. The sun shines in many ways 🙂
Yea Cat Patrick lets see him put his money where his mouth is if he is such a big fan of indy it could be the very thing he needs to increase his public profile,but i think you will find the people have already decided who will lead the next indy campaign and its going to be that wee firebrand of a lassie from the indy movement who just became an elected FM.
Never forget where our FM`s passion for politics comes from do i agree i am not sure conflict of interest being FM as well but what the hell its now or never is she the right person well that there is no doubt.
But Alan should be in there as well its a shame they cant take back over slab but as i pointed out elsewhere that would mean dealing with all those vermin in ermin stashed away under Blair.
Buy we did the smart thing and kept out of the way,as ex old labour and LFI i know how hard it is to watch the party you worked for become a complete shambles run by eejits of the highest order.
No we LFI sacraficed our party on the alter of indy you SNP guys had better not let us down we stuck to the plan,now its your turn we have put the blue tories in your sights go get them we have your back.
But Ivan McKee is now an SNP MSP, and thank goodness for that
Damn! But good that he’s on our side.
@schrodingers cat
have you ever thought of doing your own blog,
a sort of lefty greeny type of thing,
i would happily put some money in to fund it.
Harry ther’e a queer lot in the Borders. Bad enough electing Cuddly Mundell , but now his son on the list vote! A lot of Borderers have this stupid idea that they are cut off and remote from Holyrood. It’s absolute nonsense. Gala is 33 miles from Edinburgh. Stirling and Falkirk are just as far. Dundee is nearly 80. Inverness is 155 for goodness sake.
I am fed up with them using that as an excuse to be Tory Bastards. I am 36 miles from Glasgow and 26 from Edinburgh.
@ Big Jock
It’s worse than that! He won the constituency! I really do despair sometimes.
Glamaig says:
10 May, 2016 at 12:51 pm
How about laying off the Greens for the next 5 years? we are doing the oppositions work for them.
No. Last Thursday Harvie explained to nice BBC Scotland man that he would end SNP “addiction” to hydro carbon energy. Nice BBC Scotland man didn’t ask how though.
It is UKOK mad as fcuk out there. Orkney and Shetland hand disgraced Carbuncle’s LibDem crew a landslide. Election night winner Tavish Scott tells nice BBC Scotland man he wants to get a UKOK coalition going across his scotland region to block ref 2.
May 5, Scottish Tory votes ramps up for the same UKOK toryboy world that fcuked off 3000 refugee children unaccompanied in camps in Europe.
Politico genius, Ruth MacThatcher kept silent on her London handlers latest horror show. No ref 2 and Rule Britannia is all that counts
link to youtube.com
@ Big Jock
It’s worse than that! He won the constituency!
I really do despair sometimes.
Apologies for double post; I didn’t think I’d clicked “submit”, so didn’t believe the duplicate post warning.
Lesson learned (maybe).
Big Jock, 30 miles from Scotlands capital and most of us can’t get STV, but instead we get BBC or ITV news from Gateshead. Rest of Scotland doesn’t give a fuck. You do the maths.
I’ve seen various forecasts of Border Rail travel. 650,000 return or 1,300,000 single trips estimated in year 1 seem to be accepted by most sources. These figures seem certain to be exceeded.
There was an estimate of 1.73 million single trips somewhere a few years ago, which would seem to be about right. I’ve never seen an estimate of 2.8 million anywhere.
21.25 miles are single track, 9 miles are double in 3 loops for “dynamic” passing – space has been allocated to instal a 4th loop, as well as 2 lines at Tweedbank. most of the delays are caused by problems accessing/leaving the main line double track from waverley to Portobello, and/or delays in Fife.
Most rail reopenings exceed their cautious estimates. Rail use in Scotland is about 85 million journeys, or about 17 per inhabitant. Obviously, those who have/get a railway are more likely to use it.
If the Borders don’t want the line extended – at reasonable cost, i.e., single track – then there are a couple of high impact low-cost reopenings possible elsewhere in Scotland.
Top of the list – and with track in place for most of the route – is Leven/Methil. Glasgow Crossrail is another possibility – the track and bridges are in place – but the main objection is the desire of timetablers to separate services to isolate disruption rather than ease cross-city journeys – after all, there is no demand for a service that doesn’t exist!
As it stands right now the Greens have been quite ineffectual. I’d find it hard to point to one concrete result they have achieved. Other parties have cherry-picked their more credible ideas and made achievements with them but you can’t say for sure they wouldn’t have done so anyway if they Green Party was not here.
The central plank of Greenism is global warming theory which hinges on premises and conclusions that, if we were to remain polite about it, we’d say suffered from defeasible reasoning. I was brought up to believe we were heading into an ice age because of propellants in hairspray so forgive my scepticism.
The Greens might have a chat with their unruly bedfellows on the left about the importance of the scientific method and the requirements of falsifiability. It seems no matter what happens with the weather and climate that their theories are somehow validated, but that can’t be right.
All this talk of the environment is going to come to a head when the science shows that fracking is essentially harmless. It is harmless, based on what we know. I’m in favour of fracking in Scotland if it creates jobs, wealth, and development. Are we to constrict our potential and progress because we don’t want to upset and handful of Green-minded people and protest voters?
As Peffers explains, the Scottish landscape is far from natural anyway. It’s hard to imagine fracking would make what is essentially a moonscape any less impressive. The little Green men and women amongst us would do well to give more emphasis to humans and their needs rather than the welfare and prospects of rocks.
DerekM says:
but i think you will find the people have already decided who will lead the next indy campaign and its going to be that wee firebrand of a lassie from the indy movement who just became an elected FM.
Never forget where our FM`s passion for politics comes from do i agree i am not sure conflict of interest being FM as well but what the hell its now or never is she the right person well that there is no doubt.
of that I have no doubt, but the snp chose blair jenkins to run the yes campaign last time
that didnt mean alex and nicola stayed quiet, (alex was the biggest gun in the indyref) but they did try and distance the snp from the yes campaign, mainly because the unionists tried to conflate the 2.
i think this will be the same strategy for indyref2 which leaves the question unanswered
who should lead yes2?
“2.16 The total route length of the railway network in Scotland is 2,759 kilometres, of which 672 kilometres is electrified. These figures do not represent the total length of railway track: a kilometre of single-track and a kilometre of double-track both count as one kilometre of route length.”
link to gov.scot
Track from Saltcoats to Largs is single track, I think the Wemyss Bay is, also Gourock? Most of the Highlands. A load in Scotland is anyway!
Oh, I did find 65% of SPT network is double track. Typical! Kuh, chuh, huh.
Ah, AhuraMazda / AngraMainyu / NeoconNat / sensibledave I see Robert Peffers is your friend now you want to push wedges in and lever them apart between SNP and Greens. Thanks Yasna!
Breeks -If they keep electing Tories that’s not going to help us give a fuck!
All this talk of the environment is going to come to a head when the science shows that fracking is essentially harmless. It is harmless, based on what we know.
i was job owner with shell, until very recently, and have been involved with many offshore fracking operations
(i doubt that would go down well on a green lefty blog scott)
biggest problem is subsidence and earth quakes, not a problem offshore but in built up areas like central scotland it would be
google groningen and NAM
Outstanding article Rev. I couldn’t agree more.
Credit must be given to the unionists though, who are expert in coming up with a divisive strategy which the splitters fall for time and again. What will it be next time round I wonder?
There is an old saying about being fooled once or twice and where the shame lies.
Now…..what’s all this talk about a break?
Enjoy.
Re “Luigi 0813pm 9/5 ” , possibly the BBC in the short term will continue with the anti SNP / gov. rhetoric with the bias slanted towards ” the Ruthie party”. However, down the line if SLAB manage to ” fudge” some type of ” Devo/home rule” position ( with the blessing of the paymasters in London), with a view to attempting to win back votes ( primarily from SNP), mid to late parliament term , ie prior to next Holyrood election, then the ” propaganda machine at BBC SCOTLAB will swing right behind them to maximise the red unionists vote , knowing that the Blue unionist vote will hold up.
The strategy will be to create a unionist majority , with Nicola losing control of Holyrood, and thus no 2nd referendum. Perhaps the SNP should consider this and plan a “counter strategy” along the lines of a referendum near the end of this term, with a genuine 3 question option ( with the precise “home rule” powers absolutely clarified). Thereafter the ” losing option” should be eliminated ( hopefully ” the Ruthie position”, and then a straight fight between 1&2 ( independence v home rule/ FFA . ) The 3 question ballot would allow Nicola to say that this was not a ” rerun of 2014 ” and even if ” the home rule option won” ( which I doubt) , Independence would eventually triumph . ????
Say I accept your figures, I don’t, but say I do. How many of your 600,000 went or came from further South than Gorebridge? The Borders Railway is no such thing. It was built for Edinburgh’s overspill commuters and paid lip service to the opinion of Borders people.
The Borders Railway only serves Galashiels. Tweedbank is Galashiels. The issue with the Scottish Tapestry had nothing to do with the tapestry, but the gross indecency of yet another £3.5 million of Borders money being spent in Galashiels, the home of Scottish Enterprise and spiritual home Scottish Borders Council. Galashiels. Galashiels. Galashiels.
I’ll go back to the start shall I? If the SNP want to make progress in the Borders, they should send in the FBI to purge the nepotism and corruption which destroys the Borders. To date, the SNP couldn’t give a shit. I mean that quite literally. They wont even answer a fucking question. Must be 8 years I’ve been trying now. Paul Wheelhouse? Fergus Ewing? John Swinney? Fking useless. Think these fine gentlemen are going 2to wrestle Independence from Westminster? The can’t even save us poor sods in the Borders from corruption, Tories or ITV Newcastle.
David Leask: Ulsterisation? Scotland says No
link to archive.is
Some of the fallen. The SNP lost (temporarily I hope) a few good candidates.
link to archive.is
Breeks who elected the Tories in the Borders? You can lead a horse to water and all that!