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Wings Over Scotland

The Oracle Hole

Posted on July 24, 2019 by

Yesterday we reminded you of how Wings predicted Boris Johnson becoming Prime Minister of the UK several years ago. But of course, other soothsayers are available, like this confident chap from August 2014:

In news that will come as a shock to absolutely no readers at all, McDougall wasn’t just lying, and wasn’t just wrong about one thing, but was both wrong and lying about pretty much everything he said.

Both of the Yes camp’s “scare stories” which were sneeringly mocked by McDougall during a BBC debate in Inverness actually came true – the Tories DID win the next election, and Johnson DID end up as leader of the party and then as Prime Minister.

(McDougall burst into tears at Scottish Labour HQ on the night of the 2015 election as his party lost 40 of its 41 seats despite his services as Jim Murphy’s speechwriter and adviser, his powers of chortling seemingly having deserted him.)

And it’s interesting to revisit the debate.

Of course, we now know that there WAS a massive oil field on the Clair Ridge – “the UK’s largest new oil field this century”, according to the Daily Record’s breathless report – whose existence was kept from the public eye until after the vote.

McDougall’s various claims on the subject since 2014, incidentally, have been that (a) “there is no large oil field on Clair Ridge!”, (b) “everyone already knew about Clair Ridge in 2014, it was never secret!”, and (c) “nobody knew about Clair Ridge in 2014 as it hadn’t been discovered yet!”

Presumably everyone who’d said in 2014 that there was a massive oil field in Clair Ridge, out of all the 178,000 square miles of ocean around Scotland they could have named, just made an incredibly lucky and accurate guess three years in advance.

Danny Alexander, meanwhile, had simply flat-out denied it.

We’re not sure whether he accepts its existence now, as he quickly scooped up a knighthood for services to the Crown and scarpered into the lucrative and patriotic world of investment banking, like so many of the leading lights of “Better Together” did.

Curiously, nobody seems to have any idea what Blair McDougall does these days. But whatever it is, all we’d say to his current employers is that if he delivers them any reports or forecasts, it might be an idea to have them double-checked.

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  1. 24 07 19 12:56

    The Oracle Hole | speymouth

  2. 24 07 19 18:59

    The Oracle Hole –

355 to “The Oracle Hole”

  1. call me dave says:

    Och! “Broadsword to Danny boy”…almost forgotten about that.

    Where are they all now? What a reality TV programme that would be.

    “Scotland is floating in oil” I said in 2014 to my old Lib-Dem Father-in-Law frae Oban voting NO! because Queeniw and that.

    He looked at me as if I was mad…truly. 🙁

    We don’t talk anymore.

  2. Welsh Sion says:

    You wanna know what Bliar McDoughnut is up to these days?

    Strategist, campaigner and speechwriter. Senior Strategist, Arden Strategies.

    Self Employed

    Jul 2016 – Present3 years 1 month

    Glasgow and London

    Working across the UK and internationally to help organisations with their strategy and communications. Offering an executive speechwriting service for executives in NGOS, the private sector and progressive politics.

    Working across the UK and internationally to help organisations with their strategy and communications. Offering an executive speechwriting service for executives in NGOS, the private sector and progressive politics.


    Working out of Glasgow and Pall Mall, London.


  3. Sharny Dubs says:

    All the usual lies.

    When are the bulk of Scottish folk going to wake up? This should be blazoned all over the media.

  4. Welsh Sion says:


    Arden Strategies was founded by the former UK Cabinet Minister, the Right Hon Jim Murphy.


  5. Bill Hume says:

    We know….WE KNOW. Liars the lot of them.
    Question is, how do we counter the daily unionist propaganda on TV and in the news stands?

    Well, I guess that WBB2 will be a good start, hopefully delivered to most households in Scotland.

    I don’t know if it’s possible, but I would like to buy perhaps a hundred or so of them, delivered to me so that I could take them to the High Street and give them to anyone who wants one.

    I could even stand on an Irn Bru crate to do it.

    (On second thoughts……not an Irn Bru crate)

  6. Taranaich says:

    You keep thinking the Wee Black Book had enough, then the UK does something else to prove their promises were worthless.

  7. Doug Bryce says:

    The really interesting thing about the Hurricane Energy discovery (Lancaster field) is that it is extracting oil from fractured basement.

    Such reservoirs(not to be confused with fracking) tap into networks of fractured granite which lie deep below depth of traditional North Sea reservoirs. Only recently have we had the technology and seismic data to access such resource. Similar oil wells are successfully producing oil in Vietnam and China. But never before in North Sea.

    There is lots still to be proven : however in words of the OGA (oil and gas association) this is a potential “strategic resource for UK”. The basement reservoirs may run right down Clair Ridge to Ireland. i.e there could be a lot more oil left in North Sea / West of Shetland than anyone thinks.

    However first we need some smart people, like Dr Trice of Hurricane Energy, to drill some more holes.

  8. Proud Cybernat says:

    And whatever happened to the ‘Ordinary Nurse’?

  9. blackhack says:

    The Clair ridge oilfield discovery was one of the worst kept secrets ever……I have first hand experience of this as I was a taxi driver at the time and and the oil rig workers that I used to transport were all talking about it among themselves and to me in person…

  10. Doug Bryce says:

    Essential reading about West Of Shetland oil below

    “Battle of Britain – what do Hurricane Energy’s successes tell us about Scotland’s oil future”

  11. Martin says:

    So to recap:

    Independence activists say Clair Ridge massive oil field, Tories will win election, BoJo will become PM.

    Unionists deny and openly mock their “twisted conspiracies.”

    Predictions by yessers all come true.

    Not a peep from unionists or the media?

    Sounds about right. Standard UK operating system.

  12. Muscleguy says:

    As a scientist and therefore with a great respect for demonstrable truth people like McDougal make me angry and I find their existence painful.

    The only reason anyone would want to hire him would be if they need something lied out. Beware of any organisation utilising his services.

  13. awizgonny says:

    “His Powers Of Chortling” – the great synth band from the 80s that never quite broke through 😀

  14. Clootie says:

    If we can all see the lies why do our media fail to see it!
    That is the problem – The Unionist media manipulates what the public are made aware off.
    That is why the polls are not changing as fast as they should be.

  15. Dr Jim says:

    Nicholas Witchell of the BBC just campaigned on BBC news for the Union by politicising the Queen’s opinions by announcing that the most important question the Queen would be asking Boris Johnson was how was he going to keep the Union together

    Nicholas Witchell can’t know that she’d be asking that question and if he did he’s not supposed to say so because of the rule of bringing the Queen into politics, or is he psychic

    Constitutionally the Queen can vote but does not in order to maintain neutrality in politics

    Once again the BBC using the Queens *Concern* as a campaign tool

  16. galamcennalath says:

    What is the official job title of a blatant-liar-for-hire?

    Whatever it is, you can bet the phrase itself is a total lie!

    Such are the dark arts which seem so ubiquitous in these times.

  17. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Well, back in 2014 I predicted to a visiting NorthBritLab canvasser that if we didn’t get out of the Union then, we would be faced in short order with a Tory+UKIP coalition government in London.

    That one hasn’t quite happened yet (with the Faragists latest incarnation rather than the old one), and might never happen, because I hadn’t anticipated back then that the Tories would actually morph into Faragists.

    The wee Tory collaborator poo-poohed the dire prospect then, but that failure of comprehension was just one token of the ongoing NorthBritLab decline.

    Maybe Macdougall and Darling are a tad wiser than El Gordosaur in keeping schtum now, but all three of them owe the people of Scotland a very full and abject public apology. (Not that we’re ever likely to get one.)

  18. manandboy says:

    With deliberate intention, Westminster has, nor will ever allow Scotland its own independent broadcast media.

    Were Scots fully and accurately informed about England’s exploitation and brainwashing, we would have been independent long ago. But that’s all water under the Kingston Bridge.

    Scotland is an English Colony.

    IndyTime. ASAP.

  19. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Independence activists say Clair Ridge massive oil field, Tories will win election, BoJo will become PM.”

    And we’d be taken out of the EU (against our will).

    Everything YES said would happen has happened.

    Everything Better Together told you was a LIE.

    Fool me once and all that.

  20. mike cassidy says:

    Dear Reader.

    The irony!

    … The first takes on a big political moment are almost never right

  21. Ottomanboi says:

    It would be so pleasant to the ear to hear the rattle of tumbrels come to take suchlike to the ‘Bastille’.
    One day, and may that glorious day come soon citizens.
    Nice to see the Daily Ragwort* had its UK priorities aligned, Oil & Corrie.
    *ragwort, variety of toxic weed

  22. galamcennalath says:

    Dr Jim says

    Nicholas Witchell of the BBC just campaigned on BBC news for the Union by politicising the Queen’s opinions

    Sheer frenzied panic. No tactic is beyond the pale.

    But why? Surely in a partnership of equals, if one were to decide to end the partnership, the other has no right to try to stop this?

    Simple answer. No one actually believes the UK is a partnership. And certainly not anyone who has a vested interest in maintaining the de facto asymmetrical power relationship where they consider the UK to be a Greater England.

  23. galamcennalath says:

    Ottomanboi says:

    ragwort, variety of toxic weed

    … more commonly known as bunweed in Scotland 🙂

  24. Jack Murphy says:

    The Queen is not neutral, but ‘The Palace’ and the Establishment maintain that anodyne fiction.

    Remember her ‘wee words’ at Crathie Church in 2014 pre- Scotland’s independence referendum and the blazoned headlines in the following day’s papers dutifully reported by the BBC and it’s Branch in Scotland?

    The ‘neutral’ Queen is the last bolt-hole of the NO/Bettertogether political Establishment.

    She wasn’t exactly neutral during the Quebec Independence Referendum, as this YouTube clip recording demonstrates.

    It was a hoax call from a Canadian broadcaster claiming to be the Prime Minister of Canada, asking the Queen to make a TV/Radio broadcast supporting the Canadian Government in it’s NO stance in the Referendum.

    The Queen promised the ‘Canadian PM’ she would ‘phone him later in the day with her decision.


  25. schrodingers cat says:

    Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage has said he is open to an electoral pact with the Conservative Party – if Boris Johnson is genuine about taking the UK out of the EU on 31 October.

    Mr Farage said Mr Johnson would need to call an election if he wanted a no-deal Brexit, in order to “change the arithmetic” in the Commons.

    He said there was then a “possibility” of a pact between the parties.

    told ya

  26. Golfnut says:

    @ Doug Bryce

    We already know there is oil of the west coast Clyde basin, they closed all the Riggs down after Chevron applied for planning permission to build a refinery, they were refused because it would interfere with the UK nuclear deterrent. All licenses were revoked. Heseltine was the defence minister at that time.

  27. Ottomanboi says:

    Whatever the new accommodation, the Brexit lot and Tories feed out of the same self-serving trough. The fiction that they represent different species is media nonsense, they’re English ‘patriotic’ conservatives. If they ‘mated’ it would count as first degree incest.
    Be that as it may the species is of proven noxiousness to Scotland.

  28. misteralz says:

    Mac at 1429…

  29. Fraser MacKintosh says:

    Liz windsor or what her name is called on an person to form her goverment. Along with China and North Korea, Scotland can claim having an unelected head of state.

  30. hackalumpoff says:

    FFS people, Clair Ridge was approved for development by the UK Gov. in October 2011. Clair Ridge is part of Clair which was originally discovered in 1977. I have been involved in various project engineering bids for these fields for 25 years, some secret.

  31. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Mac @ 14:29:

    Somewhat early for an O/T, but “chapeau” for that one anyway, it’s a stonkeroonie! Worth repeating on archive:

  32. Robert Louis says:

    Wow, I had forgotten just how much of a snivveling, wee, self-serving, lying Libdem sh*te Danny Alexander actually was/is. A real massey ferguson.

    The Libdems eh! And now we have another in the same mold as liar clegg and liar Alexander, Jo Swinson, who lives in England, despite her constituency being in Scotland.

    It is of course much worse than the article above suggests. In 2014, we didn’t just have denials of Clair ridge oil field, we actually were repeatedly told, the oil would run out in just FIVE years. And of course, it was a total lie. Here we are FIVE years later, and we now know some of the biggest oil feilds in the North sea have just been found.

    ‘For London’s gold, they are bought and sold,
    such a parcel of rogues in a nation.’

  33. gus1940 says:

    It is normal every summer when the Queen is in residence at Balmoral for the current Prime Minister and Spouse to spend a few days at Balmoral.


    Will Boris be accompanied by his Bit On The Side?

  34. Robert Louis says:

    I see the whole cabinet have resigned. Even David Mundell, as he promised, has now resi…oh.

    Anyway all the cabinet aside from Mundell have resigned.

  35. Effijy says:

    I notice that the SNP Petition / Link supporting
    Scottish Independence has been removed?

    Is this not something we should be encouraging
    Wingers to sign.

    It is short of 250,000 with a proposed target of 300,000.
    How nice if it made 1,000,000.

    Anything and everything must be used to shift Bojo the Clown.

  36. Artyhetty says:

    Just the mention of oil and gas in Scottish waters has me feeling sick. Sick because Scotland has been and is being robbed blind to the tume or £Trillions, and sick because in fact we are almost at 100% renewables in Scotland for most of our needs for energy.

    The other reason I feel sick is because the oil needs to be left in the ground, the Arctic is on fire, and that situation is going to get much worse. Do the rich who are extracting our oil etc have a planet B to go to come the big crunch for planet Earth? Anyone would bloody well think so!

    I have said many times, I have a book called, ‘Black and Green Gold’ 2010, by the ‘Balmoral Group’ energy company.

    The UK London, English government started to tax the oil companies out of business as soon as they knew that there would be an independence referendum. The book talks about the decommissioning of still viable oil fields in the North Sea.

    Smaller businesses went bust, bigger ones, well, it was win win win. No company prospects for oil unless they know it’s there, it’s very costly to find it, test the stuff and then extract it!

    McDougal and his ‘nationalists’ comment can GTF. Lying scheming trougher. These gits remember are happy to see Scotland poorer, a basket case in the eyes of the world, stupid, poor, teeny tiny pathetic Scotland with their tartan tat and droning bagpipes. Ha ha ha ha!!!

    Meanwhile Scotland, I mean North Britain, is kept poor and begging, drugs fed into communities to keep the young and not so young compliant. UKOK criminals controlling the narrative.

    It makes me sick to the very core!

    Run Scotland run, while you still can.

  37. Robert Louis says:

    Total security ball up, with Boris the Clown on the way to meet lizzie. Well done to those protestors.

  38. Robert Louis says:

    Listening right now, to absolute gobsh*tes on SKY, wittering on about how it is ‘unconstitutional’ to demo in the Royal parks. What are these people smoking? What freaking century are they living in??

  39. Willie says:

    Liars, liars and liars who would lie again.

    Remember the Vow folks.

  40. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. McDougall (the evil one). He’s a British Labour man so he must be a true democrat? Well, no. Given liberal democracy is grounded on reason, it would be more accurate to describe him as an over-stuffed totalitarian. He’s clearly not a supporter of universal human rights, and given British nationalism is an expansionist form of authoritarian English nationalism, I don’t think he has any place in the future of Scottish politics.

    Evil exists and it looks like McDougall.

    Hannah Arendt Explains How Propaganda Uses Lies to Erode All Truth & Morality: Insights from The Origins of Totalitarianism

  41. wullie says:

    crimes against the people. Liars 24 7 365 the vow etc. When can we begin proceedings.

  42. Robert Louis says:

    Wullie at 324pm,

    Part of the plan for independence should include a ‘truth and reconciliation’ commission, to allow England to make reparations for all our oil they have stolen, repay the money they have stolen, and apologise for treating Scots as underlings, for over three hundred years.

  43. Dr Jim says:

    We just can’t have the public protesting in a public park

  44. Jack Murphy says:

    Robert J. Sutherland ‘s Post at 2:58 pm should have come with a Health Warning to the Tories and Labour folk who read Wings Over Scotland:

    ” Somewhat early for an O/T, but “chapeau” for that one anyway, it’s a stonkeroonie! Worth repeating on archive:

    Boris Johnson MP for Henley writing in The Telegraph in 2007:
    “….. Why are we all conniving in this stitch-up? This is nothing less than a palace coup, effected by the Brownites, and it is possible only because Tony had run out of road.

    He knew that the Brownites would eventually assassinate him, and so he decided to go “at a time of his own choosing” and, with North Korean servility, the Labour Party has handed power over to the brooding Scottish power-maniac……. ”

    Oh dear.

  45. Republicofscotland says:


    Looks like Plan B (independence route) could be back on the cards for debate at the next SNP conference, all options in my opinion are welcome for discussion.

  46. call me dave says:

    Lots of BBC pundits like spiders hinting and putting words together to busying themselves at repairing the fragmented Union webby thing!

    Here’s Boris at No10: Bingo Brexit and Union card ready to tick off.

    I need the word(s) ‘precious union’ for a single line… 🙂

  47. Clootie says:

    I am listening to Boris’s speech…I think I’m going to cry (not through laughter)

  48. Graeme says:

    Is he reading a HIGNFY script?

  49. Robert Louis says:

    All I can see is Tim Brooke Taylor giving a speech to land of hope and glory, from the goodies.

    What a dick Boris is.

  50. Doug says:

    Anyone have a video of McDougall greetin? There’s loads of videos with him lying.

  51. kapelmeister says:

    A very shrill speech with an undertone of aggression quite noticeable despite the attempt at positive sounding rhetoric…..if you can call phrases like “doomsters and gloomsters” rhetoric. Mirthless humour too.

    He’s going to try and obliterate democracy in Scotland.

  52. Maid_in_Scotland says:

    Anyone heard from Ian Wood recently? Mind o’ him? Another ‘Great Scot’ with issues, ‘benighted’ by the Queen.

  53. Robert Louis says:

    Kapelmeister at 418pm,

    I think you are right. I think the current Scotgov, are very soon going to have to stand resolute against the bullying clown of a prime minister. I can only see one thing happening as a consequence, however, and that is increased support for independence.

  54. Scott says:

    Did I see waste of space Jamie Stone stand up and clapping for May what a bloody hypocrite just like his new leader Swinson.

  55. cirsium says:

    @Effijy, 3.09
    Anything and everything must be used to shift Bojo the Clown.

    Forget Johnson. Anything and everything must be used to dissolve the Union and regain national sovereignty for Scotland. Time is short

  56. Doug says:

    Johnson quick to blame the EU for any No-deal.

  57. Essexexile says:

    Boris has given his first speech.
    Sausages and spitfires blah blah blah blah.
    Expect the same meaningless cobblers with no hint of substance plenty more times yet.
    If the UK had literally nobody in charge at the moment it’s hard to see how we’d be worse off.

  58. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Doug @ 16:34,

    Yes, that’s their well-rehearsed alibi in case everything goes belly-up in October. Which, as things are shaping-up, might well happen.

    It’s good to note a hardening of tone in Nicola’s statements now. Hopefully signalling a much faster enactment of the Referendum Bill, among other things.

  59. call me dave says:

    First straw in the wind from YouGov suggests SNP have carried their commanding lead into the era of Johnson and Swinson

  60. Moonlight says:

    Boris claims that his union flag stands for freedom. It does seem though that freedom stops short of the freedom of the Scottish people to decide their own future and allows the freedom of the English majority to dictate their fate.
    Nothing new here then.

  61. Petra says:


    Oh well here we go. Penny Mordaunt leaves, or got kicked out of the Cabinet and David Lidington resigns.

    ‘UK de facto deputy PM Lidington resigns ahead of new government.’

  62. Petra says:


    Liam Fox kicked out of the Cabinet now, lol.


    @ Moonlight says at 4:50 pm …. ”Boris claims that his union flag stands for freedom. It does seem though that freedom stops short of the freedom of the Scottish people to decide their own future and allows the freedom of the English majority to dictate their fate. Nothing new here then.”

    I listened to his speech and it’s clear that they have no insight whatsoever when Johnston says, they want to leave the EU to ensure that THEY can elect and remove politicians.

  63. stuart mctavish says:

    Given that the Conservative party do not command a majority in Westminster and Boris was NOT the deputy prime minister, can anyone explain why the Queen just misconducted herself in inviting him to form a government – has she simply been poorly advised or is she part of the coup?!!

  64. kapelmeister says:

    They will be dancing in the streets of Croydon tonight.

  65. Petra says:

    Ha ha ha … spot on!

    Nicola Sturgeon:- ”Behind all the ‘make Britain great again’ type rhetoric, that speech was rambling, blame-shifting and, to put it mildly, somewhat divorced from reality. #newPM”

  66. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    stuart mctavish @ 17:10,

    In this wonky UK la-la land of a [vaguely] “constitutional monarchy”, Stuart, I think Her Maj has to entertain – at least initially – whoever the majority party presents as PM.

    It’s ultimately up to the HoC to accept or reject this choice via a no-confidence motion (or two?), if they care to. The SNP are clearly up for that, but is Labour? If the latter default yet again, will the speaker accept a challenge from the SNP?

    How will Corbyn’s swithering co-enablers of Brexit react to that? If the Tories lose the VoC, Labour get their chance to form a government. (Not much chance, but still.)

    Will Labour’s “gies us an election” bluff now finally be called?

  67. bittie45 says:

    The Awesome Foursome. Aye, right. More like Some Poor Will Pay For All Four.

  68. admiral says:

    All the “moderate” people in the Tory government being given their jotters. A fascist coup is in progress, folks!

  69. admiral says:

    Meant to say – starts with a promise to help the workers – “your elderly parents social care, no waiting 3 weeks for a GP appointment, jobs and bread” and then it goes downhill from there.

  70. Hamish100 says:

    Dr Jim

    The Queen is political

    Nudge nudge wink wink Arise Sir, Dame Cbe mbe – whits yir price!

  71. stuart mctavish says:

    @ Robert J Sutherland
    There is no majority party.
    May was invited to be PM as leader of the biggest party and failed to deliver her mandate to the extent she was removed from office by her own side amid government turmoil.
    Accordingly the second biggest party ought to have been invited to try and form a government.

  72. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Fluffy has gone

    Please be Ross Thomson


  73. mr thmd says:

    I posted this in an old thread in error.

    It is important.

    Scotland has a worldwide reputation for the provenance of its products.

    During his speech outside 10 Downing St, the new PM appeared to give his blessing to genetically modified organism products.

    In particular, the export of ‘blight-free potatoes’?

    As part of the EU, the Scottish government was able to veto GMO production in Scotland because agriculture (and fisheries) were devolved matters the EU had responsibility for.

    While the vast majority of those devolved powers will return to Scotland, around 20 will be ‘shared’.

    Scotland need to be alert..

  74. admiral says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:
    24 July, 2019 at 5:54 pm
    Fluffy has gone
    Please be Ross Thomson

    So Snakebelly Mundell’s crawling to no avail. Hope Snakebelly Davidson follows suit!

  75. A C Bruce says:

    Mundell sacked.

    Will Ross Thomson get his job?

  76. Clootie says:

    Com’n who replaced fluffy? Any hints/rumours?

  77. One_Scot says:

    Lol, Mundane has gone, must have been pushed. #DontLetTheDoor…

  78. jfngw says:

    I’m plumping for John Redwood for Scottish Secretary, just to see him miming to Flower of Scotland.

  79. Robert Louis says:

    I thought it would ne hilarious if liar Numdell was replced by Ross Thompson, as rewards for all his creepy arse licking. Having given it more thought, I’d actually find it even funnier if waster Ross Thompson was ‘bypassed, despite his toady are licking.

  80. Brilliant Just been driving home and heard that about 11 ministers had resigned from the cabinet – listened hard but Mundell was not mentioned. Hypocrite….

    And now I find Justice has been served and he has been sacked. Couldn’t happen to a nicer man. Mind you they do say, better the devil you know than the devil you don’t know so maybe the day will come when we shall lament the passing of Mundell….

    Boris has risen ever so slightly in my eyes.

  81. Let’s hope it is not Stephen Kerr!!!

  82. potter says:


  83. Doug Bryce says:

    Mundell gone. Surely not Ross Thomson to add to the comedy…

  84. Undeadshuan says:

    Ross Thomson would be historical and fit well, in the clown cabinet.

    Everytime I see a picture of him I roll on floor laughing, I dont think there isn’t a picture where he disnae look

    This is what you get on google images under “Ross Thomson MP”

  85. A C Bruce says:

    Rumour has it that Groper’s not got the job.

  86. HandandShrimp says:

    Fluffy chopped…no surprise there. If Boris could ditch Ruth he probably would.

    These are bizarre times. A wish list of events to pave the way for independence could not have topped what has happened.

  87. SilverDarling says:

    Alistair Jack as the new SoS?

    Never even heard of the man before this

  88. Clootie says:

    I vote for Stephen Kerr! That arrogant sneer will be worth a few votes

  89. Al-Stuart says:

    Profoundly worrying.

    We appear to have a fully paid up psychopath as the new U.K. Prime Mininster.

    Boris Johnson says this is his favorite film clip…

    A wee bit tongue in cheek, but this is polite what he has just done, giving the mafioso horses head to 12 of his Conservative cabinet members/ministers of state.


    Including the extra extinction of Jellyfish David NaeSpine Mundell.

    I wonder what would happen if Boris the Buffoon had to issue orders to the military and bring us close to war.

  90. Doug says:

    Michael Gove?

  91. SilverDarling says:

    Sorry – ALISTER Jack – Borders Tory MP.

  92. Footsoldier says:

    Would be good if Ross Thomson got the job and would also prove Boris has already lost it – what’s not to like?

  93. Andy smith says:

    Manandboy @1:42
    Would that be ivana trumps United Kingston bridge? ?

  94. Welsh Sion says:

    Sajid Javid > Chancellor

  95. Republicofscotland says:

    As the spineless Mundell is sacked by BoJo, the unionist STV news fawns over BoJo’s appointment as PM.

    Scary eyed Thomson also got his tuppence worth in as well.

    Independence can’t come quick enough.

  96. Fireproofjim says:

    Well Boris can’t be all bad. Sacking the weasel Mundell has enormously improved my day.
    Tomorrow will be back to hostilities.

  97. bittie45 says:

    On-topic: To summarise then – the high heid yins can say just anything so long as it enables the continuing milking of the populace, because their MSM will not allow any inconvenient thoughts to remain in the collective conscious.

    The Factory operation is brilliant in its simplicity.

  98. Welsh Sion says:

    Patel > Home Sec.


  99. Davy says:

    I believe No 10 now requires a new floor ! the scratch marks fa “Fuddly Muddly” as he was removed from cabinet are none repairable.

    Well Boris has now lost the best earse cleaner known to mankind.

  100. Morgatron says:

    Just watching BBC Pravda and hearing about spineless Mundell getting the bullet. I think the should be put on the carousel that they used in Logans Run , would love to see them spinning round and flying up to a a gigantic human fly zapper. Oh my. That’s my dream cabinet sacking for all these tory killers.

  101. galamcennalath says:

    Luke Graham. Loyal English Nationalist. Perfect for the job.

  102. Republicofscotland says:

    “Fireproofjim says:
    24 July, 2019 at 6:43 pm
    Well Boris can’t be all bad. Sacking the weasel Mundell has enormously improved my day.”

    Actually I think Mundell in office was a constant boost to our indy cause his shear self-serving loathsome agenda just kept on giving to the indy movement.

    As for the new governor general, no doubt BoJo will have some cold fish lined up for the job.

    We want to be close by the exit door come this time next year.

  103. Bob Mack says:

    I hear Boris had to have an enema to remove Mundell
    Hold on to your hats folks. His Cabinet thus far seems to be comprised of sociopaths and incompetents like himself.

    The time to make a move must be close by now.

  104. Ottomanboi says:

    Ross Thomson for Viceroy, fumbling fingers on Britannia’s sagging rump.

  105. Welsh Sion says:

    Raab > Foreign Sec.

    The one who didn’t know of the importance of the port of Dover nor that he lived on an island ….

  106. Republicofscotland says:

    “SilverDarling says:
    24 July, 2019 at 6:33 pm
    Alistair Jack as the new SoS?

    Never even heard of the man before this”

    Me neither.

  107. CameronB Brodie says:

    The Prime Minister’s speech was indeed detached from reality, unless he intends to denounce neo-liberalism and reverse austerity. Is that likely? Decision makers must have at least one foot in the real world, otherwise their judgement can’t be considered sound. A decision maker must consider the ethical impact of their actions on Others, and be considered trustworthy. Otherwise, they are not leadership material. BoJo has none of these qualities, as he is a shallow and chauvinistic, right-wing narcissist.

    N.B. Accountable government must be transparent in action and public policy needs to fail within the scope of “bounded rationality”. This Tory government is already a million miles away from bounded rationality, and moving in the opposite direction at an alarming pace.

    Evaluating Ethical Approaches to Crisis Leadership: Insights from Unintentional Harm Research


    Leading a corporation through a crisis requires rational decision making guided by an ethical approach (Snyder et al., Journal of Business Ethics, 63, 2006, 371). Three such approaches are virtue ethics (Seeger and Ulmer, Journal of Business Ethics, 31, 2001, 369), an ethic of justice, and an ethic of care (Simola, Journal of Business Ethics, 46, 2003, 351). In this article, I consider the effectiveness of these approaches for leading a corporation after a crisis. The standard I use is drawn from recent studies that examine how people tend to react to corporate unintentional harms. I conclude from these studies that an ethic of care approach is most effective for managing corporate crises when it comes to stakeholder concerns. I conclude the article with strategies for managing a crisis using an ethic of care.

    apology–care ethic–crisis management–justice–leadership–virtue ethics–unintentional harm

  108. Cactus says:

    Evenin’ Morgatron, an excellent analogy, cheers to ye

    “The Conservative Carousel” 🙂

  109. CameronB Brodie says:

    N. B. Accountable government must be transparent in action and public policy needs to fall within the scope of “bounded rationality”.

    These are the sort of qualities needed for open, democratic governance. BoJo doesn’t swim in this particular current of thought though, as he appears to hold an extreme view of what moral individualism consists of. The man is dangerous.

    Ethical Decision Making in
    Times of Organizational Crisis

    The article describes a framework that identifies event, organizational, and individual factors that threaten ethical decision making in organizations facing discrete crises or in an ongoing crisis environment. Nine propositions are stated that predict threats to ethical decision making during crisis. A comparison between predictions from our model and from Jones’s (1991) model is made. Suggestions for research to test and refine the framework are proposed.

    business ethics; ethical decision making; crisis management; organizational

  110. A C Bruce says:

    Gove Chancellor of Duchy of Lancaster.

    Reported as big promotion.

  111. A C Bruce says:

    Gove’s responsibilities
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster administers the estates and rents of the Duchy of Lancaster, and is a member of the Cabinet.

    Key responsibilities include:

    advising the PM on developing and implementing government policy
    driving forward government business and implementation including chairing and deputy chairing Cabinet
    committees and implementation taskforces
    overseeing devolution consequences of EU exit
    overseeing constitutional affairs and maintaining the integrity of the Union
    oversight of all CO policies

    Crumbs, “maintaining the integrity of the Union” Yikes! He’s a nasty little guy.

  112. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Of course I might be proved wrong within seconds, but, if Boris really is so-keen to preserve the unity of his precious Union, he might do away with the post of SoSfS and have a Secretary of State for the Union, covering relations with Edinburgh and Cardiff, and maybe Belfast if they ever get those warring clans back inside Stormont.

    That would show how little he cares about Scotland, and be a huge boost to independence.

  113. Confused says:

    has mundell threatened to resign if he gets sacked?

  114. mr thms says:

    Don’t forget the new PM recently asked the First Minister if Home Rule would buy off ‘you lot’!

  115. kapelmeister says:

    Alister ‘Union’ Jack MP, satrap of the Caledonian portion of the awesome foursome.

  116. “If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.”

    two mangy rats Mundell and Fox shat out the tory arse down the sewer and out into the river,

    please,please,please make that fricken political charlatan Davidson be the next one to be shat out by Boris.

  117. SilverDarling says:

    Will the new SoS, whoever they are, report to Gove?

    Will Gove be the boss of the new Dept for the Union? Will Rooth have to report to Gove now? Or is she now out the loop completely as Swinson is the media’s new Saviour of the Union ?

    God help us all.

  118. mr thms says:

    I can see the role of the SoSfS being on a shoogly peg.

    The substantial new civil service hub in Edinburgh is going to house many UK government departments which a future independent Scotland will need to have in place.

    There is another hub coming soon to Glasgow.

    Under the Scotland Act 2016, Scotland’s two governments can devolve powers simoly by agreement.

    A ‘No Deal’ Brexit now makes it possible to devolve everything to Scotland.

    The Withdrawal Agreement had a ‘temporary arrangement’ which would have limited devolution of powers.

  119. geeo says:

    So, no Scottish MP’s placed in the cabinet yet then?

    Oops !

  120. Chick McGregor says:

    So now we have Trump and Johnson the Tweedledum and Tweedledummer of World politics.

    The blonds misleading the blind.

    As the rational portion of the World’s population looks on in bewildered disbelief we can only wonder what is coming next?

    Given both their TV show career preparations for leadership it would not be stretch to see them try to have the UN replaced by a new World-wide game show – “Have We Got Nukes For You“

    I’d rather have Frank Skinner as World leader presiding over an international arbitration game show based on “Room 101”.

  121. Undeadshuan says:

    Watching tv show and another export I didn’t know about, 95% of Scottish lobsters are exported.

  122. Robert Louis says:

    So, apparently, NS is suggesting she is thinking of accelerating her plans for indyref2, following Boris the clown becoming prime minister. Let’s hope so.

    The fact she is merely considering doing so, is a disgrace. People are angry, and the SNP should be capitalising on it,. but instead they are just wittering away. Call the referendum. Stop dithering endlessly about this, that and the other. Get on with it, FFS.

  123. Craig says:

    I’ve just simply broke down and cried, cried that his denial became true, cried that there were people who believed that fat cunt Blair McDougall who is responsible for chaining Scotland to this fuckin shitstorm.

    Where is his fuckin proclamations now? What is he saying now, is it “oops I called this wrong” or is he is still believing that Scotland chained to London rule is the best?

  124. A C Bruce says:

    SMacS @ 07.35 pm

    You may very well be right about doing away with SoSfS post.

    Didn’t Spaffer Johnson say he would also take the title of Minister for the Union?

  125. Morgatron says:

    Evenin Cactus,

    Thanks for posting the Downing St death scene from Logans Run.
    It did make me chortle. Hope your well my friend?

  126. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    STV are as bad, if not worse, than BBC. I just watched ex Labour MP Tom Harris talk a load of anti independence referendum rubbish – completely unchallenged.

  127. Petra says:

    Anyone watching Scotland Tonight Special? What a laugh. Stephen Kerr (Tory), Stephen Gethins (SNP), Christine Jardine (Libdem) and Lesley Laird (Labour) were being interviewed outside Westminster about Johnston becoming PM and talk about the discussion being heated, lol. Everyone bar Kerr (and even he was half-hearted) was running Johnston right down to the ground. Shouting over each other to get their points across. I’d say cracking up in fact about him being PM and filling his Cabinet with right-wing Tories.

    Some wee inside stories too, such as about cross-party, Foreign Affairs Committee, talks with Johnston about rectifying his botch-up of the Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe situation. Johnstone they say was more interested in dealing with a fizzy drink issue.

    Great stuff. Made a change from them attacking the sole SNP politician. All united, with venom, against Boris the Clown and his colleagues.

  128. Footsoldier says:

    Dave McEwan Hill 8:34pm. That’s because to re-quote a political saying, being “grilled” by John McKay and others in STV is like being savaged by a dead sheep.

  129. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Robert Louis at 8.29

    How exactly? Perhaps you can contact Nicola and give her a hint or two.

  130. Chick McGregor says:

    I wonder if Johnson’s bribe to the police will swing it for him when it comes to the constitutional crunch and he tries to suspend parliament and become a de facto tyrant?

    Which side will they support, parliament or the new Il Duce?

  131. HandandShrimp says:

    Who is Alister Jack?


  132. Morgatron says:

    Just playing The End by the Doors and thinking , how relevant.

  133. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    stuart mctavish @ 17:54,

    You are of course correct. I actually meant the same as you but should have phrased it better. The rest remains, though. It’s still up to the HoC to decide whether the proposed PM is acceptable to it or not.

    And there are a lot of angry/disappointed Tory MPs around right now. Including one D. Mundell, I understand. =grin=

  134. schrodingers cat says:

    touchy thompson getting shafted after all his grovelling to bojo

    dunno who this new guy is, i dare say we will find out

  135. A C Bruce says:

    Alister Jack arrived in Downing Street. ? new SoSfS ?

  136. Thepnr says:

    Nicola should have called the referendum last September when she might have won it.

    We’re fucked now that Boris has picked his new cabinet and is in the ascendency with all they great Ministers he’s picked.

    Things can only get better in the UK with Boris in charge and Sturgeon must go for failing to call another referendum when it could have been won!

    Waiting all this time has surely lost us the opportunity to win!

  137. A C Bruce says:

    Alister ‘Union Jack” info

    Tommy Sheppard says he has never heard him speak in Parliament in the 2 years he’s been there.

  138. kapelmeister says:

    The new Tory government line up is just a Brexit Party tribute band.

  139. Terry callachan says:

    Wiki think alister Jack is the new SoS for Scotland

  140. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 21:20,

    Heh, heh.

    I’m not so sure now though that she’s going to wait until September 2020…

  141. Undeadshuan says:


    Dinnae fash yersell

    There are more ways to indy than a referendum

  142. Big Del says:

    Right… just watch stv “special report” Steven Gettins shat it and missed an open goal penalty..
    It was an Absolute open goal. AGAIN. SNP what are you doing???
    London lights too bright? FFS……

  143. Undeadshuan says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    Mare like nov/dec 2019!

  144. Hamish100 says:


    stop talking shit.


  145. Thepnr says:


    There are more ways to indy than a referendum”

    Gies a clue, you’re obviously far smarter than Nicola Sturgeon or Alex Salmond then.

  146. Thepnr says:



  147. CameronB Brodie says:

    We really need an irony font, or a tradition, convention, or systematic approach to language use that facilitates logical interpretive reason. Sorry, too much Wittgenstein for a Wedensday. 🙂

  148. Jock McDonnell says:

    Red Rag of the day – that superannuated BBC correspondent reminding us that HM is in favour of the union. The SNP should ask for clarity on that from the BBC – is this hard fact or conjecture. Maybe the palace should ask that the BBC don’t speculate on HM’s opinions.

    Cringe of the day – Matthew Parris forgetting the name of Boris’ victim in Tehran

    Ironic moment of the day – almost cheering Boris when I found out he’d finally sacked that wee jobby

    Chuckle of the day – the description of BoJo’s speech as ‘Spitfires n Sausages’

  149. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    New SoS for Scotland

    Looks like our alternative media has them spooked.

    They went for a ‘clean skin’ we don’t have Memes or recorded examples of hypocrisy for.

    Either that or a figurehead who will not actually control his department or any decisions affecting Scotland.

    I did find it odd Courtier Kerr of BBC Shortbreid didn’t mention Ross T MP in list of probable candidates for the job this afternoon (so probably tipped off)!

  150. Thepnr says:

    Boris Johnson as Prime Minister is the greatest gift to Independence that the Brexiteers could ever have bestowed upon Scotland.

    Not 5 minutes into the job and he has carried out a slash and burn job on May’s cabinet. We’re heading for a Genghis Khan cabinet led by BoJo the clown.

    This is the most right wing cabinet that the UK has ever had in modern times, I really can’t see it lasting. Listening to Johnson’s speech at the lectern on Downing Street though I got the impression he is planning on going for a general election.

    It might be the case that he doesn’t wait on a vote of no confidence from Labour which is a certainty anyway but instead asks Labour to support him and dissolve parliament and go straight for a general election.

    No chance of no deal + no chance of a deal = General Election

  151. A C Bruce says:

    I don’t think the opportunity to win has been lost.

    Enjoy the spectacle of the cabinet of leavers who think they can deliver what May couldn’t deliver in 3 years. It will be a lot of fun watching them fall flat on their hard right faces.

    The responsibility should have rested with them in 2016 but hey-ho they’ve got it now.

  152. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 21:48,

    {irony}Yeah, Wittgenstein, any day, right. That will swing it!{/irony} =laugh=

  153. Undeadshuan says:


    So ye really really cannae think oh ony?

    Well work it out for yourself, I’m new yer brain , have a think , dae somecresearch.

    Or jes stop feckin moaning and dae something!

  154. Thepnr says:


    LOL 🙂

  155. Gary says:

    Will Steven gethins ever get into the bloody fight??!!! Numerous times he has let the unionists rant on and never challenge effectively.
    Will the SNP stop being so damn nice and start hitting back harder ffs

  156. Thepnr says:

    Here you go, this is where we headed.

    Loyalty to the supreme leader if you want a job in MY cabinet.

    “All cabinet ministers and those attending cabinet have signed pledge to take UK out of EU on 31 October – including a few like @AmberRuddHR @RobertBuckland and @JoJohnsonUK who presumably had fingers crossed behind back”

  157. Robert Louis says:

    From REV STU’s twitter, this link;

  158. CameronB Brodie says:

    Fortunately there is such a guide to language use, called “plain language law”, which makes me wonder why this pish about self-ID of sex wasn’t papped long ago. Are their enemies within that may have been overlooked?

    Plain Language and Legislation

  159. kapelmeister says:

    Ruth Davidson tweets her congrats to Alister Jack but – in reference to the previous SoSfS – says that “he has big shoes to fill”

    Yes Ruth, clown shoes are not easy to fill.

  160. Thepnr says:

    All the new members of Johnson’s cabinet have “signed a pledge” just like taking a vow to get the UK out of the EU by the 31st October.

    It’ll be a right laugh then if we’re still in the EU on the 1st of November then eh! get your stocks of popcorn in as you’re going to need them.

  161. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    Reason needs defending and someone has to do it. I thought I was being reasonably lighthearted in introducing a bit of critical thinking into the mix. Got anything more productive to offer than snark?

    What is plain language law and why use it?

  162. Dr Jim says:

    Alister Jack the new Sec of State for Scotland once said he did not believe in devolution and the Scottish parliament in his opinion should be gotten rid of

    This guy’s an idiot and a dummy but is as nasty as they come with a giant ego because he’s aready got his Wiki page set up with his new title on it already

    He’ll last all of thirty seconds trying to pull this on the FM before she velocirapters his face off and leaves him with his pants at his ankles weeing down his own legs into his shoes

  163. Robert Louis says:

    Gary at 1006pm

    Totally, totally agree. It is utterly pathetic. Pathetic beyond belief.

    They have all become far, far, far too chummy with everybody down there. They think they are being taken seriously, but they are just being used. ‘oh, let them have a say now and then, on a few committees etc,, to make then feel involved’ . Westminster, and its inhabitants are playing them, and it has to be said, playing them well. Sinn Fein has the right idea, since they know full well how Westminster corrupts.

    Come on SNP, get on it, some hard hitting soundbites at the very least. Stop being so reasonable and considerate. This is a fight. Being nice, just doesn’t cut it.

    And call the referendum, FFS. Or else make independence your mandate at ANY new election.

  164. Essexexile says:

    Top Trumps c**nts.

    I don’t like using that word but really, there is no other way of describing Johnson’s cabinet.

    To be honest, I’ll bet T May is looking forward to the next few months as this shower of shite rapidly realise there is no answer to the Brexit conundrum and everything they’ve ever said is garbage.

    Priti Patel is a particularly odious individual. I’ll look forward to the inevitable c*ck up in the prison system that forces her to resign.

  165. Terry callachan says:

    M Gove is the new chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster but he also has been given another job by Boris
    He is MP with special responsibility for policy relating to NO DEAL BREXIT

    I heard that on LBC radio this evening about 7pm when they were interviewing shadow MP,s

  166. jfngw says:

    If this thread is the SNP position then we are truly fucked.

    All the sovereignty posturing and claims at WM by the SNP would amount to no more than hot air if this is the real thinking.

  167. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 22:18,

    I was offering a practical solution to the problem you posed, and evidently from your reaction it’s not me who has the light-hearted bypass… =sigh=

  168. Thepnr says:

    @Robert Louis

    “Totally, totally agree. It is utterly pathetic. Pathetic beyond belief.

    They have all become far, far, far too chummy with everybody down there. They think they are being taken seriously, but they are just being used”

    Check the state of you Robert Louis! You’re an Independence supporter too hahaha my fucking arse.

    Constantly you attack the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon so what does that make you hmmm? I know exactly what I think, it’s simply that you’re just thick as shit and think you’re doing right.

    You’re not a Unionist or a paid troll of the UK in my opinion, you’re just an extremely stupid person if you believe that slagging off the SNP in EVERY POST you ever make will help in any way towards Scotland gaining her Independence.

    Get a grip FFS.

  169. Dr Jim says:

    Pritti *death penalty* Patel for Home secretary, she’s the one who wants jail time and hard labour for Twitter trolls

    That’ll clean up the FMs Twitter account and empty half of Ibrox at the same time

    There’ll be no racism under Pritti Patel she’ll deport them back to… well that might be a problem, oh I know public floggings, Boris’ll like that, a touch of the birch eh never did anybody any harm, bare buttocks and all that, big red marks, that’s the way to do it

    And she will, she’s bonkers enough

  170. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Thepnr at 9.20pm
    With SNP’s support a its highest ever and independence support at its highest ever stop talking rubbish.

    And we haven’t even started yet

  171. Thepnr says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill

    You’ve had an irony bypass Dave FFS, read the rest of my posts.

  172. Scotspatriot says:

    Spotty to disappointment the delude here.
    The SNP are, and always have been, the only Party that can deliver Independence.
    If you listen or worse, vote for anything else until Ind, you are, at best misguided, and at worst, a fraud !

  173. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    True, I couldn’t see the funny side of your comment and I couldn’t interpret it either. That might be down to complex PTSD and a low patch I’m going through? Or it might be that I haven’t translated your comment correctly? Still, fuck Wittgenstein, the language we use is of no significance to social action or the distribution of justice. Britain is “One Nation”. Long live Tory tradition, patriarchy and the full-English Brexit. 😉

  174. jfngw says:

    @Thepnr 10:18

    After WM use the Henry VIII powers, Boris has apparently now moved on to an oath of allegiance, presumably declaring him as the Supreme Head of No Deal.

  175. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 22:38,

    I rather think he is joking, DMH. You have to keep in mind where he is coming from, rather than read the cold print straight. Hence Cam’s (quite reasonable) point @ 21:48.

  176. Dr Jim says:


    Some folk don’t seem to know you very well, I get the same thing, It aint easy being humorous these days

    Everybody’s a critic

  177. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 22:41,

    Sorry, Cam. Maybe it’s just the sticky weather…

  178. Thepnr says:

    Here’s a good laugh, everyday there are people coming on Wings like Robert Louis saying for real what I used as a wind up about how rubbish the SNP are in order to ridicule them.

    It is an absolute certainty that Boris Johnson as Prime Minister will increase support for Independence, it is an absolute certainty that Nicola Sturgeon was right to wait “until the terms of Brexit are known”. My post was irony.

    Yet I get people attacking me for that. Oh dear, we really are fucked.

  179. Clootie says:


    Some people can follow you!
    Keep up the good work.

  180. galamcennalath says:

    From Twitter …

    ” Mhairi Hunter
    My view has always been that there is no route to independence which does not require Westminster agreement because independence has to be negotiated with Westminster. “

    Well, we will never ever get independence with this line of thinking. We will never ever get WM agreement for Scottish independence. Why should they? What’s in it for England? ?e will only achieve independence in spite of WM and in the face of opposition from WM IMO.

  181. Dr Jim says:

    Esther McVey’s in, she’ll be the ideal partner for Pritti Patel

    *The murder squad*

    We’re getting the full third Reich now

  182. RM says:

    Scotland will have to get its own broadcasting company’s asap.

  183. mike cassidy says:

    jfngw 10.31

    Hard not to disagree.

    Especially as that view scuppers the idea that a referendum will be asked for on the occasion of the oft-mentioned significant change of circumstances.

    I wonder what number has to be reached before we go cap in hand to ask for our section 30.

    70 per cent 75. 80 …..

    And why does Maihri Hunter think Westminster will give a fuck whatever the number is.

  184. Colin Alexander says:

    Mr Johnson is gonnae regret sacking Mr Mundell.

    Who’s gonnae be the tea boy noo?

  185. kapelmeister says:

    Take a look at Alister Jack’s Facebook. Loads of photos of him with constituents or with other groups. He’s incapable of animation. Either stony faced or sometimes, even worse, he manages a sort of supercilious looking semi-smile.

  186. Dr Jim says:

    Remember when the FM said the refusal of a section 30 order would *prove* to be unsustainable

    Look up the Smith Commission paragraph 18 to see why, then look up the legal expert opinion on that report that verifies the position

    The UK government has already agreed to a section 30 order and they did it legally on 27 November 2014

    To refuse a section 30 is to take themselves to court to overturn their own legislation before the Scottish government takes them to court to enforce it

  187. kapelmeister says:

    Has Boris given a post to Baldur Von Shirach yet?

  188. Mountain Shadow says:

    So we have now have a very far right wing Government.

    What are you waiting for First Minister?

  189. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    No probs. Got any suggestions in how I can make the philosophy of language more engaging? Sorry bud, I’m only winding, as I’m just enjoying remembering a lot of stuff about open democracy, I’d forgotten I knew a bit about. This is not good news for the yoons. 😉

  190. Maria F says:

    Thepnr says:
    24 July, 2019 at 9:56 pm

    “No chance of no deal + no chance of a deal = General Election”

    Personally I don’t think it is about that deal at all.

    Labour are the tory enablers. For the last 3 years they have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they have ceased completely to act as an opposition. If they really did not want a “no deal” they would have voted for Ms Cherry’s motion when they could, but they chose not to.

    I have not a shadow of a doubt that the powers that be would have no problems finding sufficient compliant “rebels” among the labour party and even the bendy libdems to support a no deal if needs must. Just look back at all the nasty policies the tories passed through. There was always sufficient labour MPs voting with the tories or abstaining to allow those policies/bills to go through. A coincidence? I think not. As per the libdems, who can forget the university fees or the proportional representation vote?

    I don’t trust the LibDems at all. I think what Swinson said in her recent speech is an eye opener. Allegedly at a crux point for her party where brexit has placed the UK in an impasse and her party stands to make wins among the remainers in England and Wales, this idiot goes on to leave brexit in a second place while gives far more importance to Scotland’s referendum than brexit? Is she for real? The obsession this woman has with Scottish independence actually makes me question how sincere the LibDems really are when they claim they are fighting against brexit. Now I don’t believe them. The speech of that woman made me think that fighting for brexit is just purely opportunistic and the platform for their ultimate goal: fighting against Scotland’s independence.

    That is why I don’t think this new GE will be at all about the impasse of no deal/deal or brexit/no brexit. The General Election will be about stalling and preferably crushing Scotland’s referendum altogether to save the “union” by getting as many non SNP MPs as they possibly can: Labour, libdems, tories, brexit party, UKIP, Change UK all desperately biting like piranhas at the SNP. If the number of SNP MPs goes below half the Scottish seats in Westminster and the UK is out of the EU in a heartbeat.

    They attempted this in 2017 by throwing anything they could at it and they failed spectacularly. They are going for the jugular now with the brexit party attempting to steal from the SNP the 30% that voted for brexit while pumping up the popularity of the LibDems to hoover up the remain vote.

    I do fear for Holyrood. I fear that should the tories + the brexit party succeed in the next GE to form some kind of a coalition (which I am sure they would as they are the same thing) and I would not be surprised if Holyrood is quashed to stop legislation being passed to dissolve the treaty.

    We are where we are because Scotland has not given consent for Brexit and our Scottish government and Parliament (thanks to the SNP) is reminding the English government and English parliament this day in day out. Should any of the spineless Labour or LibDem unprincipled careerist sycophants be in power in Scotland today and the UK would have exited the EU months ago on a no deal.

    I think that what we have in front of us is a battle between the taxdodger apologists that demand brexit at all cost to avoid EU regulations and those who want to preserve the union. The problem is that the English establishment cannot have both with a majority of SNP in Westminster and in Holyrood and the English establishment is not used to have its cake and eat it. The SNP is not letting them and they don’t like it.

    These feel like the last desperate and dirty attempts of the English establishment to keep hold of Scotland what come may. If we thought that the EU ref with all the psyops, breach of electoral law and lies and the 2017 GE with all the dark money endorsing tory candidates, buckets of money thrown to some constituencies, paper candidates, etc were dirty, we have seen nothing yet.

    If a GE goes ahead before Scotland’s referendum I have no doubt it will be the mother of all ugliest and dirtiest elections ever.

    So we better get ready.

  191. mike cassidy says:

    Dr Jim 11.03

    You better tell Mairhi Hunter that.

    Cos unless she is deliberately misleading on that twitter thread

    She thinks we will only get a section30 due to the moral gravity wave which will zap Westminster when polls show the support for independence is

    (fill in your own big number here)

  192. Phronesis says:

    Congratulations to Boris Trump’s speechwriter today – a gracious speech of inclusion, hope and emotion as a means of persuasion and impressive rhetoric to convince us all of the greatness of ‘this country’. Of course, it’s all insincere twaddle but it makes for good headlines for those who pine for the glory days and need reassured of Boris Trump’s beatification as saviour of the Union.

    The PM’s speech writer does like to use gambling metaphors to encode information and transmit this as a means to find the common ground between the political elite and citizen –drawing us in to the circle of community as the PM plays economic poker with jobs and livelihoods, trade and commerce.

    ‘The people who bet against Britain are going to lose their shirts, because we are going to restore trust in our democracy and we are going to fulfil the repeated promises of Parliament to the people and come out of the EU on October 31, no ifs or buts’

    He’s a bit askew with this though ‘No one in the last few centuries has succeeded in betting against the pluck and nerve and ambition of this country’.

    Quite a few nations developed a backbone, decolonised and diminished the ambition of ‘this country’

    And rejoice –the PM’s going to sort out the health and social care crisis (despite his party policies implicated in the rising mortality in the elderly) ‘once and for all with a clear plan we have prepared to give every older person the dignity and security they deserve’.

    Did he not read this report?

    Still it’s wonderful that equality is high on the agenda with improving education and opportunities for youngsters;
    ‘My job is to make sure your kids get a superb education, wherever they are in the country – and that’s why we have already announced that we are going to level up per pupil funding in primary and secondary schools. And that means uniting our country, answering at last the plea of the forgotten people and the left-behind towns by physically and literally renewing the ties that bind us together’

    Did he forget what he said in 2013 about the God-given rights of the top cornflakes?

    ‘When Boris talked about how we should worry less about greed at the top and the envy of such greed, he went on to say that those at the top were there because god or genes had put them there… The core beliefs of the establishment are a lie, then. The core beliefs of every establishment in history have always rested on one lie of superiority or another… Boris’s mistake was a failure to be careful over how he described this’

    Its a blessed relief that Scotland is a country with its own flag, language, legislation, democracy, education system and a robust YES movement, all are essential ingredients for being an independent country that can write its own destiny with sincere words, no ifs or buts.

  193. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dr Jim @ 23:03

    Yes, it all hinges on whether or not we believe (like the FM) that an S.30 “request” =ugh= is refusable or not, since it has not yet been tried post-IR1. If it’s effectively non-refusable, then we’re good to go and it’s just a matter of timing and having sufficient self-belief; if it is refusable, we are into “Plan B” territory. So we’ll just have to try and see, I think.

    Any kind of London refusal or fudge could escalate matters, and backfire very badly on all the BritNat fake-democrats. So it may be a lose-lose for them.

    The main difficulty from our side is the usual posse of ultra-gradualists, who crave the kind of guarantee on high-stakes pivotal issues that history never seems to offer. The old chicken-and-egg conundrum.

  194. Clootie says:

    Phones is @11:18

    Your last paragraph is wonderful.

  195. Footsoldier says:

    Ruth Davidson’s new boss is Alister Jack who has been appointed Scottish Secretary. Never heard if him before this.

  196. Thepnr says:

    Rejoice! Rejoice!

    Scotland and all her people has had enforced upon her a Prime Minister who is utterly unfit for that title as political leader of the UK, he is an embarrassment.

    We did not have an opportunity to vote for him and even if we had, we wouldn’t. This PM intends to take us out of the EU despite 62% of Scotland voting remain. That is anti democratic and shows how badly we in Scotland are served by Westminster rule.

    This is what we have waited on, a clown sitting on a throne delivering sermons to the Scottish people. That isn’t going to work and it is now the time to seek the agreement of a majority of Scots for self governance.

    There will be a second referendum next year with or without a Section 30 order and that has always been “the plan” but it is our job to make sure we win that referendum so lets all do what we can.

    We don’t need a date or a starting block to leap from, we need to do it now. If YOU yourself are serious about doing all you can then get along to your local Yes group or SNP/Green office and volunteer to help.

    They need your support, we won’t win Independence without a lot of hard work so do as much as you can do and encourage others to do the same, especially our youth, son, daughters, nieces and nephews if you can. After all it is their future.

    There’s a battle ahead, they have the media, we have our tongues.

  197. Footsoldier says:

    Info on Alister Jack the new Scottish Secretary who supports Bexit

  198. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 23:06,

    I reckon you are on a quest that is far deeper than merely the issue of independence, Cam, and Lord knows, the latter is already deep enough. So I have to bail on that one. I fear you are on your own there!

  199. galamcennalath says:

    mike cassidy says:

    we will only get a section30 … when polls show the support for independence

    Indeed. No PM, especially a Tory one, will want to go into the history books as the last PM of the UK. None will hand over independence.

    Cameron was a cautious gambler who thought he had made a safe bet. Any PM agreeing now, has to accept YES will likely win and has to be prepared to accept the end of the UK.

    The prestige, stature, global influence, economy, etc etc of England would take a nose dive. Their seat in the security council, their WMDs, threatened. Their ingrained sense of exceptionalism just would allow them to do it willingly.

    What is it they say? Power is never given willingly, it has to be taken.

  200. Katie says:

    This whole situation is very worrying. Apologies in advance for my lack of knowledge here but what would it take to just claim UDI upon Brexit without the need for section 30 or even referendum. Any thoughts? This is a genuine question.

  201. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 23:27,

    All of which, if true, poses the conundrum: why would they ever do it? The higher the stakes, the tighter they cling.

    It’s surely a big ask to assume that some poll result (or accumulation thereof) will cause them to crumble. On the face of it, the very reverse. Do we have to get into a DDR-type scenario, then? The FM doesn’t appear to think so.

    Neither can I see Boris getting so royally pissed-off with us all that he calls up Nicola and does a Czechoslovak-style deal over the phone.

    So what is the “magic grease” that unsticks the S.30, then?

  202. boris says:

    A wee taster about Alister Jack.

    Alister Jack was born and educated in Dumfries and lives and farms in Courance, near Lockerbie.

    Owns – Rars Woodlands 3 Limited – Courance Estate Claimed farming subsidy of £74792.11:

    He made his business in self-storage, making an estimated £20m fortune through his company, Armadillo. Retains significant business interests and declares shares in 16 companies.

    He also has investments in Jardine Matheson Holdings (JMH), which is incorporated in Bermuda a British Overseas Territory that can provide tax advantages to firms that register on the island.

    An Asian-based business group. It is listed on the London Stock Exchange and provides management services to companies in the wider group.

    JMH is chaired by Eton-educated Sir Henry Keswick.

    Jack declared £3,000 of support from Sir Henry in the following Westminster declaration category: “Support linked to an MP but received by a local party organisation or indirectly via a central party organisation.”

    Jack also declared £5,000 from Percy Weatherall, who is listed as a JMH director, in the same category on his MP register of interest.

    In JMH’s latest half-yearly results, the group’s underlying profit for the first six months of 2017 rose 20 per cent to $765 million, while revenue was $19.4 billion.

    In 2016, Oxfam published a report which named Bermuda as the worst of 15 corporate tax havens.

    The charity examined practices such as countries offering “unfair and unproductive” tax incentives and zero or extremely low corporate tax rates.

    At the time of the report, Oxfam stated that Bermuda’s “characteristics” included zero corporate income tax and zero withholding tax.

    The territory’s Finance Minister claimed the report contained “serial errors”, but Oxfam defended the findings.

    In June 2017 Jack, a Tory candidate won the Dumfries and Galloway constituency after defeating the SNP’s Richard Arkless by 5643 votes.

  203. Liz g says:

    Katie 11.30
    UDI doesn’t apply to Scotland because we are in a Treaty agreement with England.
    We don’t declare Independence from England/UK/Britain as we are not part of it!
    We END the Treaty agreement with England…
    It’s a very different thing!
    The Treaty of Union is what gives the Acts of the UK Parliament the force of Law in Scotland.

    If Scotland ends the Treaty arrangement then the UK Parliament not only can’t make Laws for Scotland anymore,but also that the UK Parliament no longer actually exists.
    It would be once again the English Parliament…

  204. Heart of Galloway says:

    Alister Jack is MP in my neck of the woods and it is for people like him the word odious was created.

    His voting record can be found here and it’s not pretty:

    Arrogance and condescension hang about him like a bad smell but he outranks Mundell somewhat in acuity, which isn’t saying much.

    Hard Brexiteer, devo hater, anti EU charter on human rights, arch UKOK toff of the highest order. IOW, yer man is a true acolyte of the Supreme Leader.

    His hatred of Scottish self-government knows no bounds.

  205. Thepnr says:

    @Liz g

    Well said, if the Scottish people show that they want it then we end the Treaty of Union with England. No more UK.

  206. Balaaargh says:

    Interesting choice for the new laird:

    – Traditional farming Tory
    – Entrepreneur Tory
    – Capitalist tax-avoiding financier Tory

    He covers all bases.

  207. Thepnr says:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg confirmed as leader of the House of Commons. Surreal.

  208. boris says:

    The chances of holding another Referendum on independence for Scotland are slipping away fast as the SNP government is getting out-thought and out-flanked by the Unionist cabal that runs the United Kingdom.

    There is a realistic chance the EU would support an independent Scotland’s retention of membership but we need to move fast.

    The Scottish government should ask the European Court to rule on the appropriateness of a section 30 order indicating the depth of feeling within Scotland for remaining in the EU.

    This would mean bypassing the UK supreme court but this is justified by reference its constitutional illegality and the biased decisions it has made in the recent past.

    All would need to be enacted before Johnson pulls the plug and removes the UK from the political framework of the EU

  209. Thepnr says:

    Boris has given his brother Jo a job as Minister for Business.

    You remember his brother Jo Johnson the one that resigned because he wanted a second referendum.

    I wonder if he signed “the pledge” to leave by 31st October?

  210. Katie says:

    @ Liz G : Thanks for your explanation. How do you reckon in theory we end the treaty? Is this possible?

  211. Katie says:

    Sorry just to clarify,Liz. Im assuming it is technically possible but how do you think this would work practically in the current situation. Do you think it could be an option realistically?

  212. jfngw says:


    If WM refuse a referendum how do we ever get to this judgement from the people of Scotland. The only other method is declaring an election a de-facto referendum (by a party putting it in their manifesto), but in a multiparty vote it’s a risky option.

  213. Dr Jim says:


    Another reason is the people of Scotland are sovereign not the parliament of Scotland, the parliament exists to carry out the wishes and instructions of the people not the other way round, so the parliament can’t just do something without a mandate from the people, a vote in Scotland means something whereas it means nothing in England, they can ignore all and anything they previously said for a vote

    In England it’s the parliament that’s sovereign over the people and they can do whatever they want irrespective of the will of the people because the Monarchy ceded to them all sovereignty, it’s what makes all the noise from politicians in England a lie over Brexit, they didn’t have to do it as all referendums are advisory, they wanted to do it

  214. Jock McDonnell says:

    Liz g
    ‘It would be once again the English Parliament’ ? Implying that it was previously ? Did we just join in for a while ? Is that what the treaty says ?

  215. A C Bruce says:

    Katie @ 11.31pm

    UDI isn’t possible because we are one of two signatories to a Treaty.

    There are legal arguments for and against whether a S30 order is needed for a Referendum to go ahead. As far as I can see there appears to be a stronger case for not needing a S30 order. However, it would probably be best if both the Scottish Govt and the UK Govt agreed terms without recourse to the Courts to avoid the rancour it might cause and the possibility that the result might not be respected. I think that’s why Nicola Sturgeon has often referred to the 2014 Ref procedure as the “gold standard” for holding a referendum.

  216. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 23:43,

    These are just legalistic technical niceties, Liz, and the BritNat legal technicians have a ready fallback: the Treaty of Union wasn’t a real international treaty, =ahem= just because… oh, we happen to share the same little island or something. (These people have an easily-recognisable “tell”: they always refer to “The Act” of Union.)

    That aside, such action would only work if we have 95%+ popular support, which just isn’t there, and won’t be until well after independence is established. (As lately with the Catalans, and that didn’t work out too well. Even the Irish didn’t have that high level of support in the pre-indy parliamentary period.)

    With such demonstrable level of support the game would be well-and-truly up anyway for the writ of any London government. But no point in wishing (and waiting) for the unattainable.

    Hence the S.30 route the SG is (currently at least) pursuing.

  217. Big Jick says:

    Let’s say a poll comes out tomorrow at 60% yes. If you are Nicola what do you do?

    Remember this. Right after the Brexit vote, Indy soared to 58%. Within a few weeks it went back to 50% then to 46%. The Scots are
    great at being angry for five minutes. They are not great at staying angry. That has always been our weakness.

    This time I could see that 60% staying there until Brexit and as long as Boris is in charge. This is our window! I believe we have a few months to get out.

    After Brexit happens, and Boris is fired. Then the Scots will revert to resignation and pessimism.

    There is a pattern. Nicola needs to understand this.

  218. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 12.05
    I wrote in a direct answer to Katie @ 11.30 Robert J.
    Which was mainly to explain why UDI is the wrong term to use in relation to Scotland’s situation..
    I’m seeing she has asked another question so mibbi I can expand more there,as I’m sure you know this subject can take screeds 🙂

  219. Thepnr says:


    This is only my understanding of the situation and may well be wrong but I’ll state my opinion for what it’s worth.

    Powers over the constitution are the preserve of Westminster so Holyrood even with a majority in favour of Independence couldn’t simply declare Independence.

    It is for this reason that Alex Salmond sought and had an agreement with Cameron through a so called section 30 order that would make a YES result in the 2014 referendum clear and unequivocally binding on both sides.

    At the time it looked like a good move but obviously now the Unionists like to state that without a Section 30 there can be no 2nd referendum. This I do not believe to be true, the Scottish government can have that 2nd referendum but then Westminster could refuse to respect the result if it is a Yes vote. The question then is would they dare?

    The other obvious problem is that without a Section 30 order now it could be boycotted by the Unionist support and I can only guess that this would be encouraged by the media and especially the BBC.

    This all kinda narrows the options available to the Scottish government.

    It was never meant to be easy though and it might even get tougher, first of all in my opinion is that we must demonstrate that there is a majority in Scotland in favour of Independence because after that happens it will be recognised by the EU and the wider world and we don’t need more than that.

    I believe we will have that vote in 2020, under what rules I haven’t a clue but I do know this, every move we make now takes us a step closer to Independence.

    This will be won, won’t be easy and we’ll need to stick together. That means having trust in the leaders of the Independence movement. Surely that much is obvious to any observer?

    We will win by sticking together. Ignore the naysayers.

  220. A C Bruce says:

    There isn’t an English Parliament. The English abolished their Parliament in favour of having a joint Parliament with Scotland set up via the Treaty of Union.

    Scotland didn’t abolish its Parliament; it only adjourned it in March 1707. Winnie Ewing, at the opening of the Scottish Parliament in 1999, refers to it being re-convened.

    After Independence, England will have to set up an English Parliament as the UK one will cease to exist when Scotland hops it.

  221. Thepnr says:

    @Big Jick

    Who you?

  222. geeo says:

    @AC Bruce 12.02am

    Nicola Sturgeon refers to the 2014 S.30 indyref as a ‘gold standard’ so that if WM tries to refuse to enter into a S.30 agreement, Nicola pops up with “they are refusing to follow the gold standard precedent from 2014, therefore, we shall go ahead without a S.30 and the result shall be the settled expressed will of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

    That will play well in the international arena of nations, otherwise they are backing suppression of legal sovereignty in Scotland.

    In that circumstance, the EU will rush to recognise the result, even if they do not have to, since the result is a sovereign power exercised in the name of Sovereign Scots.

    WM itself affirmed it, so they cannot challenge a non S.30 result.

    Q1. Was the result the will of the people of Scotland ?

    A1. Only if the People of Scotland are legally sovereign.

    Q2 Q2 “And are they sovereign” ?

    A2. “Yes, it is recorded in Hansard, the official parliamentary record”.

    Where can WM prevaricate there ?

    It’s not just us saying Scots are sovereign, WM also affirms it.

    It is irresistable, legally.

    Our FM does not do stuff for no reason.

  223. kapelmeister says:

    BoJo gies his bro JoJo a job, though JoJo has to say no tae a people’s vote else BoJo appointin JoJo wid be a No No so JoJo has tae go wi’ the flow and say no though it should be a No No cause it’s nepotism ye know, this job for his wee bro which is really a bit low and it’s jist another reason for Scotland tae get up and go. No?

  224. Benhope says:

    The new PM is Boris Johnson, not Johnston, or Johnstone. On a blog where we value accuracy please let us get his name right.

    Betty Windsor seems to get an amazingly free ride on her visits to Scotland. Where are the protests? All right Royal Deeside is on it`s knees but what about a few placards about ( think carefully ) .
    Republicanism must take control !

  225. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    Again, no-probs. Of course, constitutional parity between Scotland and England is in no way connected to advancements towards gender parity and the subsequent degree of female access to political influence (ironic font). Scotland is in no way treated like a battered wife by English Tories (folks can work that one out for themselves). However, human rights are advanced and protected as if they are going out of fashion in contemporary Britain, which they are, apparently. Unless you are male, pale, English and vote Tory, of course. Same as it always was and that’s British patriarchy for you, a.k.a. British nationalism.


    Table of contents


    International human rights law and gender equality: elements of a rights-based approach

    A.The context of international human rights law

    (a) The development of international human rights standards

    (b) Regional human rights instruments

    [c] Domestic implementation of international human rights norms

    (d) Gender-specific norms and standards

    B. Some critical issues relating to the scope and application of human rights

    (a) Rights-holders and duty-holders

    (b) The nature of obligations of States

    C. The role of civil society

    D. Challenges to a rights-based approach to gender equality

    (a) The public/private divide

    (b) Competing rights

    [c] Human rights of women vs. other claims

    (d) Allocation of resources and human rights education

    E. The role of multilateral and bilateral entities in realizing human rights at the national level

    (a) The role of multilateral entities

    (b) The role of bilateral entities

    [c] Common efforts of multilateral and bilateral entities in realizing a rights-based approach

    F. Elements of a rights-based approach

    * This paper was prepared by Professor Goonesekere, in co-operation with the UN Division for the Advancement of Women.

  226. Thepnr says:


    Class 🙂

  227. Jock McDonnell says:


    Technically you are correct about Holyrood.
    But if Holyrood is just the enabler to permit the sovereign people to speak then, perhaps Holyrood is not altering the constitution. The people are & they outrank Westminster.

    Anyway, I don’t expect Westminster to agree to Independence in any way shape or form. We will need to assert it at a ballot box & then see if we get hauners from other countries. Once that happens, Westminster will be obliged to save face.
    Real power cannot be given, it must be taken.

    And for the lurkers one of my old favourites, its not even certain Westminster can ‘own’ the treaty of union- they just assert stuff & hope people will acquiesce:

  228. Liz g says:

    Any and all Treaties can be ended,some more easily than others…
    This Treaty is so old and has been so misrepresented over it’s lifetime there is a lot of misunderstanding about it.
    As has been said some may try to argue that it’s not a real Treaty and no longer matters..
    Well if that’s what they claim they can declare it not to exist and then explain why Westminster can make Law for Scotland anymore?
    If there is no valid Treaty they have nae business here!

    We were not invaded or defeated?
    What is it that keeps the Church,The Law and the Education system separate here?
    And why was there ever a need for a Scottish Office?
    Stuff like that needs explaining,so I’m pretty sure that they will never seriously try to have a Court invalidate the Treaty!!
    They will just try and convince us that’s the position….

    As to how to end it?
    We as the people of Scotland instruct our representatives to do so…. It really is that simple….

    That’s why the British Nationalists never talk about it.
    Why they lie about what it really is.
    They never say Magna Carter is just an old document or the agreement that keeps Gibraltar do they ?
    And they never ever say that the Documents that make their Queen their Queen have no real value!!!
    They also know fine well that there are many Title Deeds in Scotland that are far older than that Treaty and this kind of information cannot be kept away from the people any more.
    Why would one old document hold legal weight and not another?

    It’s not the paperwork that’s too old and had it’s day,it’s being able to hide the papers and what they mean from the people that’s gotten too old and had it’s day….

  229. Liz g says:

    Jock McDonald @ 11.59
    Well think of it as a Marriage Jock…
    At the time the Two parties expected it to last “in perpetuity” (and the Treaty actually dose say that) but no one in their right mind would agree that there is no possibility of divorce!
    All the centuries of effort to “keep” Scotland in and of itself demonstrate that the eventual divorce was always a possibility…. Aye??
    As to the actual wording of the Treaty…. Google is your friend…..

  230. Liz g says:

    AC Bruce @ 12.29
    You are of course correct,but for the sake of brevity with Katie’s particular question I thought it didn’t need sayin..
    Especially since …. What else would they do….

  231. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 00:12,

    I know, I know. But Katie (whom I should really also have included in the header) I think was also wondering why some kind of action of that sort was (or wasn’t) possible.

    Just to keep things very short, because in these confusing times some kind of SG-underwritten “DDR-type” solution does offer balm to the soul for the frustrated and impatient among us.

    The legalistic thing might possibly have had some utility if someone had tried to raise public consciousness of the issue via some kind of legal process, like the plaintiffs did over the Art.50 withdrawal. But for whatever reason that hasn’t transpired. That’s what Breeks was essentially advocating, I think: London shown to be trampling on rights of which most Scots are as yet quite ignorant (unfortunately) and which, absent any such action, are likely to remain so (even more unfortunately).

    Whereas people being told by a government of bojos that they jolly well can’t have any say in their own future under distant and uncaring mismanagement is likely to have a much more immediate political payoff, or so the SG is counting upon, I presume.

  232. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 1.03
    We’re basically in agreement Robert J…
    Nevertheless, however it comes about what we will actually be doing is ending the 1707 Treaty of Union not declaring Independence…
    And that matters when it comes to this Continuer State nonsense that Westminster try to pedal…

  233. A C Bruce says:

    Liz g @ 1.01 am

    Thanks for agreeing that my comment was correct. However, to set the record straight; it wasn’t directed at you.

    Since you’re awful keen on accuracy it’s the Magna CARTA not the Magna CARTER.

    In the interests of brevity I will leave it at that.

  234. Liz g says:

    Benhope @ 12.34
    Well in the interests of accuracy then…
    Who is this Betty Windsor of whom you speak?

  235. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 00:44,

    Well put.

    The Treaty of Utrecht, for example, which is a few years younger than the Treaty of Union, and which (among other things) has guaranteed the UK’s possession of Gibraltar ever since, is certainly not so airily dismissed by London!

  236. Liz g says:

    AC Bruce @ 1.01
    Clearly your auto correct is much more well behaved than mine!
    But you really shouldn’t have troubled yourself as you risk looking like one of those posters who put other’s off posting by correcting their spelling and grammar.
    Which as I’m sure you’ll agree is a cheep and nasty thing to do?
    Do you mibbi want to think about leaving it with a clarification on that….?

  237. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 1.32
    Thanks Robert J…. I couldn’t think for the life of me the name of that Treaty 🙂
    But yes they want that one valid amongst other’s…. not to mention all the old Titles to the Land!!

  238. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. Treaties. There’s actually a considerable body of international public law covering Treaty obligations and their dissolution. No state owns a Treaty once it becomes an issue of international law. Subsequently, any state playing fast and loose with Treaty obligations is undermining the international rule-of-law, frankly (see the full-English Brexit).

    Law of treaties
    Section A: Introduction to the law of treaties

  239. A C Bruce says:

    Maybe switch off the autocorrect you’re blaming!

    In the interest of accuracy – I know how keen you are on that – you’re the one that pulled me up. Remember?

    I give your mistakes – plenty of them – a body swerve and have never pointed them out to you.

    So jog on.

  240. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 1.32
    And how could I have forgotten (slaps self)..
    Their Henry the 8th power’s!!!
    Westminster seem to be arguing that they are perfectly valid and current….

  241. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Balaaargh @ 11:48,

    So are we lurching from bumbling ineffectual Toom Tabard as colonial overseer to 1800s-style hard-hearted estate factor, then…?

    That should certainly “strengthen the Union”! =cough=

  242. Liz g says:

    AC Bruce @ 1.44
    I didn’t ” pull you up”
    I answered the correct point you made and explained my self as to why I didn’t mention it!
    How on earth I’m I supposed to know your a closet pedantic who was about to break?
    I can’t even turn off my auto correct !!!!
    Jogging is no an option!!!
    What to do… What to do??
    I am partial to playing with my food… Will that suit?

  243. A C Bruce says:

    Liz g

    Salient point :

    Nothing I said in my original posts was directed at you.

    I always bypass your contributions and answered your comments only because they were directed at me.

  244. Breeks says:

    Scotland is a sovereign Nation. We can do whatever the hell we like, because nobody has the power to overrule us. That’s the literal definition of being sovereign. It is a binary condition. You are sovereign, or you are not. Either you can be overruled, or you cannot.

    The only constraint we have in acting as a Nation is that our actions and sovereignty need to carry the recognition of the other sovereign nations of the international community.

    We do not require either the permission, or acquiescence of Westminster to terminate the Union, only a legitimate excuse or provocation, and determined leadership with enough backbone to get the job done.

    At the moment however, our leadership seems preoccupied trying to negotiate passage through the turmoil of Brexit to the more tranquil waters beyond our removal from Europe, when presumably the Constitutional arguments about Scotland are binary issues uncomplicated by the tertiary distraction of Europe. This, in my humble opinion, is a grievous misjudgement and nothing short of unconstitutional capitulation which could cost us very dearly.

    Brexit is unconstitutional. It is the manifest subjugation of the sovereign will of one nation by another non-sovereign will of another nation, and thus it is an act of unlawful colonialism. We do not need permission from the would-be colonisers to dispute this subjugation, we need the International Community to decree that Scotland’s sovereign integrity is sound and should be respected, and Scotland cannot be arbitrarily subjugated by Westminster.

    What we DON’T need is a weak Government which cowers before the faux Parliamentary Sovereignty of Westminster, and buckles in the face of Westminster’s directives and apparent ascendency of protocol. We need their ‘permission’ for sweet fuck all.

    We need only make the case to prove our Constitutional Integrity is lawful and legitimate, and have the International Community Back our position over theirs, …and we already have the European Union desperate for us to give them a case they can back. They cannot initiate such a dispute on our behalf. It is ONLY ourselves who can, and who must.

    All this talk of a referendum, mandate, democratic majority is ONLY relevant where we propose to end the Union by Scotland’s unilateral volition. But this is a red herring – or at least, it is only half of the equation.. There is a whole different perspective which can be taken, whereby we don’t ask the International Community to judge ‘our’ legitimacy of action and Scottish initiative, but instead we strike in the other direction, and challenge the legitimacy of Westminster’s action and their “ultra vires” initiative, and give the International Community occasion to judge the illegitimacy of their misadventure and attempts to Brexit Scotland against it’s will.

    We must formally dispute Westminster’s claim of sovereignty whereby they propose to overrule the will of a sovereign Nation, and we incidentally require no electoral mandate whatsoever to do it. A competent submission from a single lawyer to a Constitutional Court will suffice.

    DEFEND THE SOVEREIGNTY. It is everything. It is the antidote to every poison. It defeats colonialism merely by existing.

  245. Liz g says:

    AC Bruce @ 2.15
    I really didn’t reply to you in a nasty way…
    I felt obliged to answer your point because you were correct in what you said and I explained why I left it out!!
    My spell check is really the bane of my life and I don’t know how to turn it off….
    Anyway I’m sorry things got nasty and I didn’t realise you ignored my contribution….
    Which is fine… Of course it is!!!
    Mostly I feel bad that Katie had to read it all!!
    I’m done point scoring and if you agree we can go back to normal…
    I will respect your position and won’t reply unsolicited again..
    But feel free to actually respond to me going forward if you want as I don’t mind at all…. But please leave my awful spelling and my evil spell check out of it 🙂

  246. A C Bruce says:

    Liz g

    As I said upthread, people’s spelling doesn’t phase me but quite frankly, your condescending attitude in your first ever response to me was, to say the least, a bit nasty i.e., this

    “Especially since …. What else would they do….”

    Since I never read your contributions, I had to then go back and try to determine what the eff you were on about.

    So stop telling me this is about spelling; it’s a misrepresentation and one I will not let pass.

    Agreed we return to normal.

  247. Liz g says:

    AC Bruce @ 3.17
    Then what did you determine?
    …. Spelling is what I got….

    ( Normal is unsolicited response )

  248. Liz g says:

    AC Bruce @ 3.17
    If you don’t read my contributions?
    Why did you make a post on the information I left out of my comment to Katie?
    How did you determine my attude from things you don’t read?
    And can I just point out that the spelling mistake wasn’t in my reply to you.. But rather…. In my reply to Katie..
    Which technically if you were being truthful you should never have read??
    Tis a puzzle…
    But I’m happy to let this comment stand… What’s yer pleasure?

  249. North chiel says:

    “ Maria F @ 1109 pm” , a very insightful analysis indeed ! Make no mistake the “ precious precious union “ is now moving centre stage and the Westminster establishment ( including Bojo with his “ English nationalist support team “ now in place ) will be making plans “ under the radar” to “ disable “ our FM and her party at the forthcoming GE . There is not a shadow of doubt that the unionist parties had prior insider knowledge of the “ so called” snap GE in 2017 and also there is not a shadow of doubt that prior collusion between the same London HQ’d parties took place to “ work in concert” to remove certain SNP MP’s in that election . You can be assured that further plans will be being put in place over the forthcoming weeks to attempt to inflict further damage to the SNP and our FM at the almost certain forthcoming election . It is absolutely no coincidence that the state controlled media outlets NEVER mention Scotland in the context of Brexit . They deliberately minimise any connection whatsoever between Scotland and the U.K. exit ( Brexit) as the hope is that the electorate North of the border don’t sit up and take notice as to what is actually going on here . The existence of Scotland in a U.K. context ( not only Brexit context)is systematically and deliberately being “ airbrushed from the airwaves” . This state media control of this situation is also for the “ benefit” of the “ southern U.K. population” , to give them “ reassurance” that Scotland is just a region of England ( the U.K.) and in no way ( despite the treaty of union 1707 , which to my knowledge has NEVER been mentioned once in the context of Brexit during the past 3 years of never ending “ 24 hour state broadcasting “ over Brexit), can Scotland have any say whatsoever in “ resolving Brexit” . Hence the never ending “ the country voted for Brexit “ broken record .
    The Westminster establishment will do anything and everything to retain Scotland’s resources, as without the “ precious union” , England is a “ busted flush” both economically and internationally . The break up of the union cannot and will not be contemplated by the “ Westminster establishment “ . The collusion between the London HQ’ d Unionist “ alliance” in the run up to the “ so called snap election “ in 2017 is proof of this and we can expect similar tactics to be employed again .
    Our FM did so well to steady the ship after 2017 ( she probably didn’t believe there was to be a GE ref TM ‘s false assurances ), however obviously the Unionist parties were all “in the know”. I am quite sure she will have this “ factored in “ this time . It may well mean going on the attack ( head to head with Bojo and cohorts) . The timing might well now “be right” ? . She has held her powder dry and rightly so . But in the words of the song it might now be time to “ let us do or die” . The coming weeks will decide our Scottish nation’s fate.

  250. A C Bruce says:

    Bloody hell!

    “Why did you make a post on the information I left out of my comment to Katie?” My reply was to Katie. I hadn’t read what you said so had no idea what your response included/excluded.

    I determined your condescending attitude from your first ever response to me upthread – it wasn’t difficult.

    I referred to Carter vs Carta. I came across it when, as I said I had to check back your posts to see what you were on about. You’re the one who thought it was about spelling.

    Now you’re calling me a liar or as you put it “technically if you were being truthful”. Really?

    For the avoidance of doubt, I repeat, I don’t read your contributions. Some people’s posts resonate; some people’s don’t.

    I have answered you fully and truthfully though I have my doubts about you accepting it as such. Here’s the kicker – I don’t care.

  251. Al-Stuart says:

    Thepnr, I try not to get drawn into bait comments, but you seem to have mislaid the plot slagging Nicola Sturgeon off for not calling IndyRef2 yet.

    As for your assertion that Boris has got his act together. For the sake o’ the wee man, gie me strength. You utter nonsense,

    Boris’ arrogance and stupidity is well known. It is a fact that YES support has gone up due to Bat$hit BoJo. Today’s egregious far right Brexit brown shirt stuffing of the U.K. Cabinet shows the nature of this lying coveter of other mens’ wives.

    I guarantee you the Tories he sacked and the Brexiteers he promised big jobs to, but failed to promote will upset his TWO seat majority.

    It is so effing obvious Boris is reeking havoc and revenge. Look at the waffling w.anchor promoting arch rival Gove to take the fall when “do or die” Brexit fails to launch on 31st October 2019!

    Stupid Gove already got stitched up like the kipper the blonde assasin was waving a few weeks ago when several BoJo MPs were tactically voting for Hunt to gerrymander Gove’s leadership bid and humiliate the bespectacled coke head Michael.

    Thepnr, stop worrying. Nicola has this. SNP-HQ have gamed all routes.

    BoJo will last 100 to 150 days. Even the bookies are shortening bets in the last 48 hours…. incredibly with Corbyn now odds on favourite to take over…

    Jeremy Allotment Corbyn will win as new PM or weak Tories will. Either WILL be a weak minority government. Either will need to grant Scotland a Section 30 order for Confidence and Supply for the 59 SNP seats they need. DUP proved this type of politics work. Boris has failed to factor in the fact he has no authority nor arithmetic in the House of Commons. Even the Queen, who knows a bit about this having watched 14 prime ministers come and go, said to Boris: “Who would want ones anus orribilis job pfeffel old boy”

    Thepnr, the game’s up for British Bulldog and U.K.


    I’d be interested to hear what Stuart Campbell says on this, BUT we don’t want the Unionists getting anywhere near our game plan.


    BoJo bu66ers up everything he touches. That will make YES in Scotland stick at 60% plus.

    Westminster Blue or Red Tories at their weakest will be okay getting rid of the sweaty jocks to get Hunt, Javier or Corbyn’s paws on 10 Downing Street.

    Game, set and match….. for Scotland.


  252. Liz g says:

    North Chiel & Maria F
    Well… Yes..
    But do ye not detect a difference in the MSM reporting?
    The Union no longer just .. is.. And Independence something that may be a risk at some undermined point.A subject discussed as a filler in between the real news!

    The Union is now something that needs to be “defended” ( always the military terms ) it is one of the questions that needs answered in this time!!
    The question and therefore the concept of it is now right there…
    That’s new!

    Independence, or at least ” the concept ” of it has become normalised!!!
    It’s become part of the discourse of Brexit and Brexit is something Scotland wants to escape from.
    And something most of England is insisting upon.
    IMHO… All this stop Brexit shit is not aimed at Yes voters and looked at like that … We’re on track… Yay!!

  253. CameronB Brodie says:

    Eyes on the prize peeps, we’re almost there. Though the focus of this paper is international institutions, I thought it might prove instructive.

    From Public International to International Public Law: Translating World Public Opinion into International Public Authority

    2 The New Contractualism of Rational Choice

    The private law paradigm will certainly live on, especially among (neo-)realist international lawyers who are sceptical of the prowess of international law, of international institutions and of legally curbing state power. From their viewpoint, a public law approach looks utterly misguided. Jack Goldsmith and Eric Posner caused a stir with such a view a decade ago.26 According to them, authority beyond states is plainly impossible, as a matter of fact and for normative reasons. For democratic states, the domestic constituency is the only relevant factor. And governments are bound to do what is best for them.

    States are therefore unlikely to truly pursue common projects with other states, let alone cosmopolitan ones.27 Any international obligation, even if it results from a freely concluded treaty, is suspicious since it constrains the domestic democratic process.28 The criticisms of this approach are manifold. For example, it categorically denies that international commitments – in the form of a treaty or otherwise – could well be an expression of domestic democratic interests.

    It further disregards that international cooperation enables individual states to do together what they could not do alone. Finally, it only views international constraints as problematic and does not take into account the constraints that individual states would impose upon one another in the absence of international cooperation.

    Other approaches share the attempt to link everything happening in the field of international law to a certain vision of human and state behaviour where self-interest constitutes the principal source of motivation.29 Some of this research recognizes that it might be rational for self-interested states to confer tasks to international institutions with some degree of autonomy.30 Yet even more differentiated rational choice approaches face serious critiques. They ultimately continue to take the maximization of state interests to be the main, if not single, reason for action. This yardstick is both unduly reductive and highly indeterminate.31

  254. Liz g says:

    AC Bruce @ 4.04
    Ok, I’ll not care either that you never said at any point up thread spelling never bothers you …. After having corrected me on spelling!
    That’s fine…
    I’ll no care that you give opinions on my contributions while claiming to have never read them.
    I’ll pretend to understand the logic that I’m very big on being accurate after never having read anything I’ve posted.
    I’ll not question you power’s in that respect…
    But honesty compels me to ask…
    Are you quite sane?

  255. Robin says:

    The funniest thing for me is that if there wasn’t a massive oil reservoir on the Claire Field, then why in 2014 were BP well into the build of the Jacket & Topsides in Korea?

    This has always been the main thing for me when it comes to our self determination.

    Forever being told its running out is such a stupid thing to say because thats pretty fucking obvious.
    I have since learned a few things about geology lately that could suggest that Oil is not a fossil fuel – that was a term thought up by Rockefeller in the 70s to make sure that they could always dictate the price of a barrel of crude by giving it an effective (whilst unknown) end date.
    The main point is that fossils are found at a certain depth beneath the surface of the earth. Oil is apparently the result of the breakdown of vegetation and animal bones, hence fossil fuel but if anyone cares to look into it, they drill for oil at depths far exceeding this level where fossils can be found so the question should be – is it really running out or is this just the lie that was told by the world leaders of the time?
    I’ll put my tin foil hat back on now.

  256. Robert Louis says:

    Today’s headline,

    Wealthy feudal Baron, takes over reigns as England’s Gpvernor General of Scotland. Based in his large country shooting estate, Alistair Jack (who?) said, “shut the F up Scotland, I own you, oh, and we’re shutting your sh*tey wee pretendy parliament btw”.

    Don’t you just love the union with England.

    Call the referendum. Get us out of this.

  257. Jock McDonnell says:

    Lizg – my point was far too many people down through the years have considered Westminster by default to be England’s parliament, including some people here. Thats perhaps why we are where we are today.

  258. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    boris at 11.49 pm


  259. Abulhaq says:

    We’ve reached the ‘its all about Scotland’ stage. Johnson, Brexit, Irish backstop etc are irrelevancies, they belong to old politics. The focus should now be on our country, its people and its future in the world.
    Breaking the conditioned psychological chains that bind us to the mores and conceits of ‘British politics’ is an imperative. We must demand and get a pro-active attitude from our leaders. No more working within the status quo, no more high minded preaching, no more soft diplomatic words. It must be Scotland first and Scotland first only.
    This administration must feel our zeal.

  260. Dorothy Devine says:

    Liz , you might be as well by-passing the comments made , methinks the commentator is lonely or in need of a sparring partner.

    Westminster is looking absolutely wonderful! Every liar, fraudster, psychopath and idiot given a top job – except for the trains and boats and planes man, who will be a sad loss to entertainment.

    Phronesis, I enjoyed your post though up until now I had taken your name for granted . I decided to look it up – suits you!

  261. Jock McDonnell says:

    Have tried twice to post a you-tube clip – probably breaking some rule.
    Anyway, if you search that site, you will find the infallible prophet of unionism damning the EU in his unmistakable fashion. He then makes comments on Scotland’s position in the UK.

    There is no doubt of our entitlement, only our wisdom in not taking it.

  262. Famous15 says:

    We will all have to sing Jerusalem and Rule Britannia every morning.


    Nostalgia. I sang that every morning at NKS in Oban Drive.. We of course substituted our own words. Then. I grew up and did not sing it at all.

  263. naina tal says:

    Maybe faulty memory but do I recall The Mooth making a crude joke a few years back about “inserting a big Johnson”?

  264. hackalumpoff says:

    God morning see Nana’s links here

  265. Ken500 says:

    What an absolute farce. The Westminster unionist imbeciles. What an absolute shambles. Unbelievable. What a total mess. The only good thing is the weather. Fluffy is gone. Into oblivion. Another imbecile in place.

    Thank goodness for the SNP abd the Scottish Gov, imagine if they were not there to stand up to the appalling Westminster unionist imbeciles. At least Independence will come out of it. The appalling Westminster farce. The laughing stock of the world. Killing off their own supporters. A GE than an IndyRef can’t come fast enough. An unelected by the Electorate PM. No majority. They could not make a bigger mess. Beyond stupid, ignorance and arrogance. A bunch of absolute despicable, greedy uncaring liars. Despicable. The dope on a rope. Disgusting. How did it ever come to this. They will be gone by October. A bunch of heartless, slob snobs. Just impossible.

  266. Breeks says:

    They only thing worse than fighting a war with allies, is fighting a war without them.

    Get our Independence in the back of the net BEFORE Brexit, or we’ll be on our own in a friendless land of perpetual winter.

    If there isn’t time for a referendum, then secure Independence without one.
    If there’s to be a General Election, then it must deliver Independence as it’s primary result.

    Democracy increasingly feels like a luxury we cannot afford. This is a National State of Emergency for Scotland, and our affirmed Constitutional Sovereignty MUST be enacted and be seen to prevail.

  267. Breeks says:

    naina tal says:
    25 July, 2019 at 8:37 am
    Maybe faulty memory but do I recall The Mooth making a crude joke a few years back about “inserting a big Johnson”?

    I’m sure I recall it was “removing” one.

  268. Ken500 says:

    Westminster is absolutely now run by crooked, criminal ignorant, arrogant low lives. A total farce of complete incompetence. Without a doubt. Most of them should be in jail. Including Johnston for the harm they have done to other people and the world economy. Compete and utter liars. Killing other people. Low lives. How low can they go. Into oblivion. Totally embarrassing.

  269. naina tal says:

    Breeks at 8.45
    Ha Ha even better!

  270. Ken500 says:

    Davidson is awfa quiet or of no longer influence. They must know they are going into oblivion in Scotland. Trying to find a way out. Tavish Scott gone to rugby, Findlay is going. Another one gone, another one down. Another one hits the dust. The skewed electoral system keeps them in place in Scotland. Evans. The losers win. Contaminating society.

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get others to vote as well. Get rid of the Westminster criminals for a better world. Save the world. Break their power to deceive. Then succeed. The bumptious clowns. Appalling people. Labour and LibDem colluded and caused it. Brexit catastrophe and total mismanagement of UK governance.

  271. Ken500 says:

    Alister Jack. Who is he? A nobody. Appalling creep getting totally slagged off on twitter. Ace song Alan of Galloway sums it up.

  272. Thepnr says:


    “Democracy increasingly feels like a luxury we cannot afford.”

    Maybe to you it does but if you believe Scotland can become Independent other than through democratic means then you are a fool.

    The support of a majority of the people of Scotland is more important than anything else, without that then it’s a takeover by a minority. That just isn’t going to happen.

    So get used to the idea that we can afford to win our Independence through “democratic means” and maybe start working towards that rather than your usual fantasy solutions.

  273. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I must admit, I had never heard of Alister Jack until last night, so, I checked him out.

    Glenalmond old boy, 1000 acres plus near Lockerbie, whi;s office, so, he has all the dirt on the other 12 Scottish Tories. Hasn’t frightened the horses, anti-Holyrood, straight, no scandals.

    Represents a constituency with a solid core of Tory-voting “white settlers”, so, if the SNP does sweep back, he has a chance of holding on, since he has a solid, 5000-plus majority.

    He will do London’s bidding – another Massey Ferguson or John Deere.

  274. Ken500 says:

    Tax evaders united killing off other people. Despicable lying troughers. Westminster U is now a total embarrassment. A world laughing stock of consolidated interest in themselves. Out for what they can get.

  275. Republicofscotland says:

    Well he’s back as Johnson’s chief of staff Dominic Cummings the man who dreamt up the big red bus with the £350 million on its side lie.

    Cummings who was found in contempt of parliament, but then refused point blank to appear before MP’s to face the music, also coined the phrase “Vote leave, Take Control.”

  276. Ken500 says:

    UDI. Only if Scotland votes for it. Doubtful. Scotland has always gone through the Ballot Box on a majority. Increasingly possible now. The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won.

  277. Ken500 says:

    Dominic Cummings is the Brexit dark money crook. Still getting away with it. Cambridge Analytica data scandal criminal. The crooks now in place ruining the world economy.

  278. gus1940 says:

    The new cabinet will this morning be queuing up to be issued with their jackboots and armbands.

    Probably the only reason Jack has been given the Gauleiter job is that he is liable to be the only Scottish Tory survivor in the forthcoming GE unlike SNPgain Thomson.

  279. Breeks says:

    Thepnr says:
    25 July, 2019 at 9:13 am

    Maybe to you it does but if you believe Scotland can become Independent other than through democratic means then you are a fool.

    The support of a majority of the people of Scotland is more important than anything else, without that then it’s a takeover by a minority. That just isn’t going to happen.

    Then yours is the dangerous mentality that sees the defence of Scotland’s Constitutional legitimacy as a “minority takeover”, and abandons the rule of law to excuse a gutless and tacit acquiescence to Scotland’s colonial subjugation.

    On reflection, to be judged as a fool in your eyes it probably a good thing.

  280. mr thms says:

    Interesting and possibly very significant.

    “Lord Reed, a Scottish judge who has sat on the supreme court since 2012, will become the next president of the UK’s highest judicial body.

    His appointment, announced by Downing Street in one of Theresa May’s last formal decisions before leaving office, was widely anticipated. He has served as deputy president for the past year and will take up his new position on 11 January next year.”

  281. Terry callachan says:

    Jock Mcdonnell..your post 0826 this morning

    Dont you think Westminster is considered by many to be the English parliament because England have ten times as many votes in it as everyone else put together ?

    I think that’s why so many people call it an English parliament
    I call it that myself
    There is no way to change the balance of power there , England always wins
    Sometimes , just sometimes when Scotland wants the same thing as England , Scotland thinks it has won too but all that has happened is we got what England got

    Not because Scotland wanted it but because England wanted it

  282. Republicofscotland says:

    So Colonel Ruth Davidson has paid tribute to David Mundell, saying his record of service at the Scotland office had been exemplary.

    Mundell as we all know has done nothing for Scots, and has actively campaigned time and time again, against Scottish interests.

  283. Terry callachan says:

    The question of the Irish backstop
    will have to be answered before brexit happens

    Which means the Irish backstop decision will be made by Westminster before any Scottish independence referendum

    The way Westminster go forward with the problem of the Irish backstop will give us in Scotland a good idea of how the next Scottish independence referendum is going to be approached by Westminster

    It’s not looking good so far but British politics is always full of bluster and empty threats

    The Irish backstop question is going to be the first Big Bang

  284. Ken500 says:

    There is no need for UDI. Scotland can just vote for it. Independence. Everyone can get out and vote for a Party who supports it. Vote for Independence those who supports it. Stop flappying about. Get out and do it. Vote, join, donate and do everything possible Do not just complain. Get out and do it. Democracy can’t be thwarted indefinitely.

  285. Thepnr says:


    You’re not a fool, you’re a complete idiot. Without democracy there is no Independent Scotland.

    You’re a fantasist that constantly bleats about using the “Sovereignty” of the people of Scotland to reclaim “our” rights. Well you’re ignorance shines through every post you make.

    The spovereign people of Scotland have said they want to remain part of the UK. That was their decision in 2014 and who are you to think that this should be overturned?

    When the sovereign people of Scotland say YES we demand our Independence then and only then will it happen.

    Sovereignty IS democracy yet you will deny that eh?

  286. Socrates MacSporran says:

    TRuthless is maybe getting demob happy. She probably knows the new Supreme Leader will want her head on a platter, sooner rather than later. She has also paid tribute to Fluffy – the biggest waste of space in years.

    The new regime cannot simply immediately shut-down Holyrood, it will, in typical Westminster fashion, administer death by one thousand cuts.

    Since TRuthless has repeatedly backed the wrong horses, she will have to go – so, who do they appoint to shut-down Holyrood?

    Please, please, let it be Murdo WATP Fraser. The irony of him trying to shut down the body which has kept him in style for all these years.

  287. Ken500 says:

    Nissan cutting 12,500 jobs. Even after a £2Billion sweetener for electric cars.

    Jobs for the old Eton boys. Just as well they will be gone by October. What a farce. Unbelievable. The DUP tribe.

  288. Abulhaq says:

    According to Wiki Alister Jack is
    [a] businessman, having founded tent-hire and self-storage companies, the latter building his fortune of £20 million.
    He currently owns a farm of 1,200 acres in Courance, near Lockerbie. He formerly chaired the River Annan Fishery Board and Trust, Fisheries Management Scotland and Galloway Woodlands.

    In touch with nature then but certainly not with Scotland. Just the man on hire for the obsolescent post.

  289. Heard David Mundell on radio Scotland this morning avoiding answering the question from Garry Roberston
    As to whether he would support a no deal Brexit.

    He instead attempted to turn it into an attack on the SNP, Saying the SNP refused to support Theresa May’s deal.

    I suspect we will see more of this line of attack from the desperate Tories in the coming weeks as they attempt to avoid responsibility if a no deal Brexit were to occur.

    Though I suspect we will see a general election before there’s any Brexit

  290. mike cassidy says:

    Fintan O’Toole strikes again.

    ” Johnson cannot disillusion anyone, for no one is under any illusion that he is truthful or trustworthy, honourable or earnest. His fitness for the highest office is not about to be tested – it is the most conspicuous absence in modern British political history. “

  291. Breeks says:

    Thepnr says:
    25 July, 2019 at 9:45 am

    You’re not a fool, you’re a complete idiot.

    High praise indeed. I’m flattered. Thank you.

  292. Terry callachan says:

    This is a testing time for Scottish independence supporters
    same opponent but different players , different tactics
    we need to stick together more than ever

  293. Thepnr says:


    Flattered eh. Is that it? What about sovereignty v democracy?

    Cat cut your tongue?

  294. Ken500 says:

    Lord Reed could be a Tory unionist. Scottish union agreement Law has to be upheld. Scotland to have a separate legal system, Protestant church (separate education system) shared Protestant Monarchy. Forever. Except by agreement of both counties rep. Scotland to be treated equally was not. Scotland was lied to it’s resources repeatedly taken illegally and mismanaged.

    Lack of recognised democracy in Scotland. Recognised by EU/UN principle of democracy and self determination. Led on to limited Devolution. Voted for in Scotland but thwarted. Implemented 20 years later, (Thatcher refusal.) Or the Westminster U Gov was breaking International Law. People in Scotland wanted greater powers. Fiscal autonomy. Thwarted once again. If Scotland votes for Independence. It will be achieved.

    Cabinent majority of wealthy white middle class men. A bunch of heartless, conceited greedy troughers. What a despicable shower. Self interested low lives.

  295. mike cassidy says:

    Alister Jack.

    Clearly happy to play Westminster’s “Our Man In Edinburgh” role

  296. call me dave says:

    Three times now in the last two days (Mundell) this morning turning the ‘No Deal’ scenario into the fault of the EU not the UK. Maybe a new way to wriggle.

    Hey Ruthie what about this breakaway Scottish Conservative Party you proffered if Boris got the job!


  297. admiral says:

    “Heard David Mundell on radio Scotland this morning avoiding answering the question from Garry Roberston
    As to whether he would support a no deal Brexit.”

    Do I feel sorry for him?
    Err, no. All his grovelling, snivelling arselicking got him nowhere.

    Watch the Scottish Tories fall into line as if Operation Arse never happened. Operation Arselickers now in full swing! Flip Flop Davidson warming up for yet another flip flop.

  298. galamcennalath says:

    So, Johnson has gathered all the hard right around him. I wonder what his plans actually are?

    One thing is certain, one of his stated objectives just ain’t going to happen.

    You can’t re-unite this dis-United Kingdom with an orgy of English Nationalism, isolationism, xenophobia, and far right policies!

    He, his like, and their attitudes are the problem, not the solution.

    Scotland does have a solution to hand, though!

  299. Petra says:

    @ Thepnr says at 10:02 am … ”Breeks – Flattered eh. Is that it? What about sovereignty v democracy? Cat cut your tongue?”

    What’s not to get about this, FGS? It’s absolutely CRUCIAL that we have a majority of Sovereign Scots supporting Independence. If I was a Unionist and Nicola Sturgeon decided to rip up the Treaty of The Union or take whatever route, even so-called legal .. UK/EU/UN, to end the Union with a ”minority” of Scots backing her I would be absolutely livid. It would result in riots no doubt and additionally bring every millionaire / billionaire Unionist out of the woodwork to hit her and or her party / the Scottish Government with a multitude of lawsuits. That would make for a great start in our bid to become Independent, would it not? Time for some folks to get real.

  300. winifred mccartney says:

    Wings unclipped coming up error 404 – is it just me?

  301. Ottomanboi says:

    Paradoxically, independentist Scotland has been proffered the Golden Ticket. We seize it lustily or we dither and be told “see you Jock, you’re dead”.
    The ‘psychological moment’ has arrived.
    This is not Murrayfield, this is not a game to lose to the the auld enemie with sweaty ‘good grace’.

  302. Clapper57 says:

    Has Jo Swinson declared there should be a statue of Theresa May yet ?

  303. Fionan says:

    Have I just imagined the past hour? There was a full version of Alex Salmond’s interview with Stuart, with apparently no BTL comments. When I refreshed to see if anyone had commented, I got an error message and the whole post disappeared.

    Anyway, I had intended to say I enjoyed the interview very much.

    Did anyone else see that post? Has it been removed by Stu, or has there been ‘outside interference’ from unowho?

  304. Breeks says:

    Thepnr says:
    25 July, 2019 at 10:02 am

    Flattered eh. Is that it? What about sovereignty v democracy?

    Cat cut your tongue?

    You don’t need me to explain it, a rudimentary dictionary should do the job admirably.

    Meantime you can ponder what devious ingenuity allows the Saudi’s or the Chinese to be fully sovereign Nations without democracy.

  305. Sarah says:

    @Fionan: snap! I just went back to look for it and thought I was going mad!! I might be but at least I’m not alone..

  306. Fergus Green says:

    Fionan and Sarah. You are not alone.

  307. Thepnr says:


    Now I understand, you seek a dictatorship!

    Democracy means nothing to you, just power. But I thought The “people” were sovereign? Is this the case in Saudi Arabia or China? Last time I looked the people in Hong Kong were rioting and demonstrating against the government.

    To you that doesn’t matter hahaha as long as Scotland is a “fully sovereign Nation”.

    Breeks your arguments are pathetic, get it into your thick skull that only with the support of a majority can the will of the sovereign people be seen to have been enacted. That’s it and it’s not difficult to understand.

    Democracy is the means by which sovereignty of the people in seen to be enacted. It works both ways, the sovereign people can choose to remain in a Union or to leave that Union. How does your version of sovereignty square that circle?

  308. Thepnr says:


    You’d think that it was just common sense to understand that in order for a country to become Independent then the majority of folk that live in that country must want to be Independent?

    What if only 10% of the population want Independence should it then be feasible by whatever means to become Independent even though 90% oppose it? There is no difference between 10% or 49% both are still minorities. If the people are sovereign then you still need a majority if you are to have consensus and a peaceful transition to a new state.

    Breeks though lives in his own little bubble where it doesn’t matter how many people actually want Independence, he just believes that we should have it regardless of any opposition.

    He is a fantasist and is in fact a hindrance to winning Independence with his ramblings that have no substance in the real world.

  309. manandboy says:

    Comment in the Guardian :

    John Heward
    “Within days of leaving with no deal then Johnson and the cabinet or, rather, civil servants and, specifically, the diplomatic service will have to start making deals and sorting out arrangements for the short term so ferries can still land and goods and people move from here to there and there will still have to be, down the line, a trade agreement. Just that after storming out and slamming the door everything will be much much more difficult. Like spraying your neighbours hedge with weed killer because he won’t trim it back and then the following week knocking on his door to ask him to feed your cat while you are on holiday.”

  310. Dr Jim says:

    It’s a human right to be free:

    Many many years ago I used to be a member of the Union USDAW but I didn’t like the way they did things so I left, nobody from USDAW sent me a letter or came to see me to tell me I couldn’t leave, I think because I joined a Union not a dictatorship, because if I’d thought it was a dictatorship I would never have joined

    England must be made fully aware they can’t own people in the 21st century like they used to do, and they can’t threaten people with menaces like they used to just to get their own way

    All human existence is based on the breaking up of partnerships whether it’s the young leaving home or the employee leaving one workplace for another or indeed the breaking up of a marriage for whatever reason right or wrong good or bad, but in all these examples in human history who ever heard of the obstruction of the leaver being successfull

    Eventually if the leaver wants to leave it’s inevitable

    The numbers are now on the side of the people in Scotland who want to leave the Union of the UK and I’m one of those numbers, so just like when I was a young man who left the Union of USDAW I demand my right to leave the UK and if the UK really try to obstruct me doing that in any way I must have the right as a free person to create holy hell and oppose the UK doing that in any way I might choose

    Otherwise I’m not a free man am I

  311. Cactus says:

    Mornin’, everybuddy got their sunscreen on…

    LIVE show NOW airing on

    Coming up: Radio chat with Colin Fox via satellite link

    Topics for discussion:
    – Boris Johnson
    – Scottish Independence

  312. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    All the usual suspects will be jumping out now. UDI and the like

    You don’t do UDI unless you are illegally blocked from following a correct constitutional avenue. We haven’t even started on that yet.

    You don’t do UDI unless you have a significant majority of the population, the tacit support of civic government and the police and the armed forces onside or in stand-off mode.

    We ask for a referendum (with a section 30) which is our right under international law (the UN Charter). We decide a course of action on the basis of the response to that.

    All this silly talk about a “Plan B” is a damaging concession – losing the first goal to our opposition. They must love it. So can we stop it.

    They do themselves huge damage and assist us hugely if they try to subvert our democratic right. UK is an original signatory on the UN Charter.

  313. McBoxheid says:

    25 July, 2019 at 2:39 am

    We do not require either the permission, or acquiescence of Westminster to terminate the Union, only a legitimate excuse or provocation, and determined leadership with enough backbone to get the job done.


    Breeks, what we need is a majority in Scotland that want independence. At the moment it is a close run thing. If the Scottish goverment, of whom the majority want independence, call it before a majority of the sovereign people are certain that is want they want to instruct their government to do, then it will be a repeat of 2014. The SNP and Greens have a majority in parliament, but until enough voters show that they will vote for independence it does not matter one whit.

    As you remind us in the rest of your comment, it is the people who are sovereign, not the parliament.
    Some people want all the benefits that a Scottish parliament bring, but still haver in taking that final step to independence. Until a majority are willing to take that final step and I think that will happen sooner rather than later, there is no point in rubbishing the SNP for not putting a date on Indyref2.

    The goings on at Westminster will get us there. It is just a matter of time. Of course timing is crucial, but the SNP still have time to start the process for a second referendum before brexit happens, if it happens.

    Don’t you think that the tories that have just been sacked might be against a no deal brexit? That is why they have been sacked, or at least one reason. I can’t see Johnstone getting a majority for a no deal brexit, when May never got a deal for a brexit deal after 3 attempts and a loss of leadership. If the tories are forced into an election and have to form a government with the brexit party, do you think they will still have any credibility in the future?

    Perhaps the time of the tory party is coming to an end. It will be destroyed by populism. Unless labour change drastically, they too are finished. I think more democratically mind people are needed. People that are prepared to compromise in a multi-party system. Other countries are run by multi-party governments and are successful.

    The SNP and the Greens belong to a large faction in the EU. Not the largest group, but one that keeps the others honest.

    I think Westminster is heading for a massive shake up and part of that will hopefully be proportional representation. The current system is clearly not working and unpopular, particularly for younger voters. Young people travel and use the internet these days and they see how the rest of the world does things.I can see them wanting a modern parliament that lacks the confrontational seating arrangements of the present.

    To quote Bob Dylan from fifty years ago

    “As the present now will later be past
    The order is rapidly changing
    and the first one now will later be last
    For the times they are a changing”

    Things are coming to a head, not only in Scotland, but also in England. The pain and suffering brought about by the few will be rejected by the many. Its happening in Scotland already. Its been going on for 20 years. When more of the English realise that their system is rotten to the core, where being rich are becoming richer. Where poor are becoming poorer. Where the middle layer is becoming less well off. Where poverty is increasing at the same rate as fewer people are owning more, then things will come to a head.

    Once a boil is burst, it brings relief. A new era will begin in Scotland and in England, with Scotland becoming independent. The prerequisite cogs are falling into place already. It has nothing to do with stars aligning either. England will want to be modernising too as it starts to realise its government is still in the victorian age and everyone else is in the world are in the data age.

    Recently it has slipped from 5th to 6th in the richest country list. It still has a long way to fall. In England that will most likely be a violent fall, unless they change they way they do politics. That change has has begun already.
    They have reached the extremism phase and that will either be followed by war or reason.

  314. Terry callachan says:

    Here is an interesting clip from the news broadcast in USA about Boris J

  315. Ottomanboi says:

    @Manandboy 11:08
    The vision of Johnson and friends is one of self-serving deals and alliances following the English historic freebooting, buccaneering style with the so called concept of Anglosphere standing in readiness. It might work, no one knows; it worked for the fabulous Tudors and was the means England ‘got’ Wales, Ireland, Scotland and a rather large empire.
    The new English régime should just be left to get on with it. It is not our way. Our history has a quite different ‘mix’. Their ‘constitution’ framed according to the theory and praxis of English law is likewise not ours.
    This is an increasingly foreign and alien cultural-political pen we need to walk out of, promptly.

  316. Terry callachan says:

    Boris Johnson is the new PM but like all leaders he will have support from experts .
    Boris plays the fool but he is no fool , he is very clever and will not be as daft as some people are making out.

    He will not do Scotland any favours because he is against Scottish independence
    let’s see what he does

    His actions regarding the Irish backstop will give us a very good idea of how he plans to do things
    Will he negotiate or will he impose unworkable instructions

    Time will tell
    One of the first things he said on becoming PM was that he will make sure brexit happens by 31st October 2019 “ no ifs no buts”

    That means we will get a good idea by 31st October 2019 of how he plans to do things with the Scottish independence referendum

  317. mike cassidy says:

    I’m sure it wasn’t the reason for nana linking to this story

    But for those worried about the westminsterisation of the SNP mps

    It will be disappointing to learn that Tommy Sheppard tried to deny us the pleasure of Mundell being sacked.

  318. Thepnr says:

    @mike cassidy

    That’s true, Mundell’s humiliation at being sacked is a greater pleasure than him just resigning. He should have listened to Tommy Shepherd and saved himself futher embarrassment.

    “Earlier today I appealed to Mundell to show the same conviction as his cabinet colleagues and resign before he was sacked.
    ‘He declined and has only himself to blame for a sad and ignominious end.

  319. mike cassidy says:

    Another of Nana’s links.

    “I’ll leave you with a thought.

    Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister. Terrifying as that may be, it isn’t the main issue.

    Which is this.

    If the system allows – is designed – to elevate Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson to a position where he can run Scotland, then that system is utterly broken”

  320. galamcennalath says:

    Thepnr says:

    You’d think that it was just common sense to understand that in order for a country to become Independent then the majority of folk that live in that country must want to be Independent?

    Indeed. However, it all does get a bit ‘woolly’ in some circumstances.

    In days of old, it was stated that a majority of MPs from Scotland was enough. WM had to say that because all their fundamental decisions were made on the basis of FPTP. That target could be achieved with 35% of votes cast, and on a low turnout something much less. People suggest – use a GE with a mandate for independence. However, proving an actual majority would be difficult.

    Use a Holyrood election with its imperfect PR system? Proving a majority here is much easier because more than one party can stand in the mandate and take seats.

    Without a doubt a referendum with two options is the simplest and clearest. Even here, though, “majority of folk that live in that country” can only be declared with certainty with a combination of high turnout and good majority. Suppose BritNats called a boycott of a non-A30 Indyref2 … turnout would be low and the YES win but not be conclusive. It would need have YES votes from half the electorate to be indisputable.

    And then … highjacking all votes by lies, false promises, false threats, online manipulation, and a shit load of dark money has become the norm. Effective democracy needs stronger policing and we have been seeing.

    IMO a combination of assertive action from Holyrood, clear majority support from voters, and possibly also support from friends abroad will deliver Indy. I’m optimistic. But it’s gonna be a struggle.

  321. SilverDarling says:

    The UK parliament has descended into complete farce.It is as if the Eton debating society has sent the B team to take up residence on the Tory front benches. Johnston is as useless as we imagined when given the big stage.

    I am genuinely afraid now. The substitution for style over substance is terrifying.

    Ian Blackford has welcomed him as the ‘Last PM of the UK’. Please let that be the case.

  322. cirsium says:


    Well said

  323. gus1940 says:

    one positive from the accession of Boris to the hot seat – he has an enormous bald patch

  324. geeo says:

    I see Johnson has decided bombastic attack on the SNP is the way to win ‘hearts and minds’ in Scotland…!

    Great plan, best indy recruiting tactic going.

  325. Dr Jim says:

    @gus1940 12:29pm

    His enormous bald patch is in his soul

  326. Dr Jim says:

    Macula calvitium in Latin for Boris

  327. Jack Murphy says:

    Thankyou mike cassidy at 11:34am for the RUTH DAVIDSON news and TOMMY SHEPPARD’S comments:

    —————The Highland Times—————————
    “Davidson a Busted Flush After Mundell Sacking”.

  328. Mac says:

    May leaving No 10

    Yes… Watch it.

  329. Mac says:

    Brilliant Paul…

    Fashion. 23rd July 2019.

    They’ve fashioned ye tae take their blame
    Ye’re even proud tae take their shame
    An’ prouder still tae gie yer hame
    A’ done in Scotland’s name!

    They drag ye doon but you want mair
    As brawn, no’ brain, gie’s oot its stare
    Aye! You’re the anes that keep them there
    The cringe a’ Scots despair!

    They split ye up wi’ creed an’ race
    Then watched ye grovel in disgrace
    An’ let ye stare death in the face
    Tae keep ye in yer place.

    Their bloodless deaths ye cannae hide
    Injections, sanctions, suicides
    It’s a’ part o’ their great divide
    An’ wi’ them ye staun wi’ pride?

    Where’s that independent roar
    Where’s that pride yer faithers bore
    Ye surrendered tae the British whore
    Like sae many aft afore.

    Ye gied rights like rebellious weans
    An’ in return they gied ye chains
    Look whit ye hud an’ whit remains,
    Tell me, whit’s yer gains!”

    Paul Colvin.

  330. Mac says:

    A wee reminder…

    Pay particular regard to the GBP / USD exchange rate…

    It’s currently at 1.25

  331. Doug says:

    It seems England is about to crash and burn. Can’t see that helping the so-called united kingdom somehow.

  332. Petra says:

    @ Mac says at 1:07 pm …. ”May leaving No 10 Yes… Watch it.”

    Thanks for that Mac … brilliant.

  333. gus1940 says:

    Watching Johnson at The Dispatch Box I was fascinated at the dozens of times his hand went in and out of his inside jacket pocket.

    Is there any significance in this or is it just a show of nerves?

  334. Breeks says:

    McBoxheid says:
    25 July, 2019 at 11:18 am
    25 July, 2019 at 2:39 am

    We do not require either the permission, or acquiescence of Westminster to terminate the Union, only a legitimate excuse or provocation, and determined leadership with enough backbone to get the job done.


    Breeks, what we need is a majority in Scotland that want independence. At the moment it is a close run thing…


    No wonder we’re in the mess we’re in.

    We can vote for a sovereign YES Vote, and remain sovereign.
    We can vote for a sovereign NO vote, and still remain sovereign.

    BUT, if we abdicate the choice to Westminster, if we let them dictate if or when we can have a referendum, then we are recognising their Sovereignty and condemning our own, since we are conceding that their mandate overrules ours, ergo “we” are not by literal definition, sovereign, THEY ARE.

    I wish I could type in a font like wax crayon.

    You are NOWHERE, let me repeat NOWHERE, if you squander the lawful legitimacy of our existing sovereignty, because once it’s squandered, your cherished referendum becomes 100% conditional upon it’s recognition by Westminster, your “sovereign” elect, who can dismiss it as “consultative” or indicative, and never be bound by it’s conclusion because “they” are sovereign and you cannot overrule their will.

    If all you need is a democratic majority, tell me what happened in Catalonia.

    We do not have to win a sovereign YES Majority or a sovereign No Majority. We DO have to derail and defeat the current attempt by Westminster to usurp OUR Constitutional Sovereignty and supplant it with theirs. In other words, we have to derail and defeat their attempts to remove Scotland from Europe against our sovereign will. That’s a battle WE WIN.

    If we stand by in indolence while Westminster ignores the Remain mandate in Scotland, then what makes you think any future mandate from any future referendum will be respected in any greater capacity whatsoever?

    Defend the sovereignty we already have. Do not abandon it in the hope of resurrecting it at some later convenience because we might very well find it is destroyed and in ruin because we knelt before Westminster’s Sovereignty as the superior, (and proxy superior at that), to Scotland’s own sovereignty as directly expressed by the undiluted direct will of the people.

    By capitulating, and allowing Scotland to be removed from Europe, we will be conceding that a proxy ruling from Westminster without ANY electoral mandate in Scotland whatsoever, will have been recognised by the Scottish Government as the superior and stronger ruling than a direct democratic mandate taken straight from the “sovereign” people themselves.

    Not in my fkn name. Scotland is sovereign. Westminster cannot overrule our Remain mandate.

    What a great calamity that Scotland suffers a government which respects Westminster’s colonial assertions more than it respects the democratic mandate of the sovereign people. Even Theresa May could get her head around that. The people have spoken and the will of the people must be respected. She is trolling us all with our own Scottish doctrine of popular sovereignty while subjecting Scotland to colonial subjugation.

  335. Thepnr says:

    “Westminster cannot overrule our Remain mandate.”

    Yes they can and they are doing it right under our noses. There’s only one thing we can do about that and that is to persuade a majority of people to vote for Independence in another referendum.

    That’s right there are no shortcuts, the majority of Scots must make it known that they wish to end the Union and once again become an Independent country.

    Not for you though, it’s all the fault of the SNP that we are leving the European Union, nothing to do with David Cameron or Theresa May, nothing to do with Bosis Johnson or the Tories at all is it?

    No, as far as you’re concerned it’s the fkn SNP’s fault eh Breeks.

  336. McBoxheid says:

    Thanks Thepnr. I tried to make it clear to breeks that its the PEOPLE who decide if we become independent, not the SNP or any other government. The SNP can only call it when enough people are ready to vote for it. Calling the SNP out, because not enough people have made a decision is plain stupid. Maybe Breeks doesn’t want to understand what sovereignity means in Scotland, or he is looking for another reason to put down the SNP.

    What is it Breeks? Independence for Scotland as a supposed cause to beat the SNP with, but not with the SNP? That stinks of divide and rule to me. Beating down the SNP seems to be your only reason for commenting on Wings over Scotland, or do you have another agenda?

  337. manandboy says:

    BonyTony in Guardian comments:

    “Proud to be a doubter, a doomster and a gloomster.

    Or, as normal people would say, a realist.

    Let’s take back control, revoke Article 50 and Remain in the EU.”

    Well said, but like the rest of us, BonyTony is standing in front of the Tory Brexit Cabinet Bulldozer .

  338. RM says:

    Alister Jack won’t be good for Scotland, he’ll have been getting schooled this past few months from civil servants, he’s been lying very low wait and see.

  339. CameronB Brodie says:

    Personally, I feel Breeks is right to be concerned over the apparent lack of action to defend the legal personality of all those living in Scotland. Then again, I’m on the sidelines with no direct access to details of SNP strategy.

    Time for some Treaty Law?

    [Agenda item 3]
    DOCUMENT A/CN.4/120
    Fourth report by Sir Gerald Fitzmaurice, Special Rapporteur

    Article 2. Fundamental principles governing the treaty obligation

    1. In general, and subject to the specific provisions of this part of the present chapter, the effects of treaties (apart from such as are derived from the actual content of the treaty) depend on the application of, and on appropriate inferences to be drawn from, the following principles of general international law, namely:

    (a) The principle of consent (ex consensu advenit

    (b) The principle pacta sunt servanda;

    [c] The principle of the unity and continuity of the State;

    (d) The principle of the supremacy of international law over domestic law;

    (e) The principle pacta tertiis nee nocent nee pro sunt.


    Article 3. Obligatory character of treaties: ex consensu advenit vinculum

    1. The immediate foundation of the treaty obligation is the consent given to it by the parties, it being an antecedent principle of international law that consent finally and validly given creates a legally binding obligation.

    2. The foundation of treaty rights is equally the consent given to the enjoyment of those rights, and the undertaking to accord them.

    Article 4. Obligatory character of treaties: pacta sunt servanda

    1. A treaty being an instrument containing binding undertakings and creative of vested rights, the parties are under a legal obligation to carry it out.

    2. A treaty must be carried out in good faith, and so as to give it a reasonable and equitable effect according to the correct interpretation of its terms.

    3. In relation to any particular treaty, the application of the foregoing provisions is conditional on the treaty possessing the necessary validity under chapter 1 of the present Code – that is to say, on its having been regularly
    concluded and come into force in accordance with the provisions of part I of that chapter; on its possessing essential validity under part I I ; and on its being still in force and not validly terminated in accordance with part III. In the case of multilateral treaties, these conditions must obtain not only in respect of the treaty itself, but also in respect of the participation of the particular party whose rights or obligations are in question.

    4. It follows from the foregoing provisions of the present article that the existence of circumstances falling within one of the two following classes of cases cannot of itself justify non-performance of the treaty obligation:

    (a) That there is a dispute or disagreement between the parties, or a state of strained relations, or that diplomatic relations have been broken off;

    (b) That the treaty obligation has become difficult or onerous of execution for the party concerned, or is felt by that party to have become inequitable or prejudicial to its interests.

    Article 5. Obligatory character of treaties: relationship of obligations to rights

    1. In general, though with particular reference to the case of multilateral treaties:

    (a) A party to a treaty has a duty towards the other party or parties to carry it out, irrespective of whether any direct benefits to such other party or parties will accrue therefrom; and correspondingly, any party to a treaty has, as the counterpart of its own obligation, the right to require due performance by any other party of its obligations under the treaty, irrespective of any such factor;

    (b) Each party is under an obligation to refrain from applying a treaty in such a way, from taking such action in relation to it, or from otherwise so conducting itself, as may be calculated to impair the authority of the treaty as a whole, to diminish the force of the treaty obligation, or to prejudice the enjoyment of the rights or benefits the treaty provides for, whether on the part of the other party or parties as such, or of individual persons or entities.

    Article 6. Obligatory character of treaties: the principle
    of the unity and continuity of the State

    1. The rights and obligations provided for in the treaty attach to the parties to it as States, irrespective of the particular form or method of its conclusion. The Government or administration of the State for the time being, irrespective of the character of its origin, or of whether it came into power before or after the conclusion of the treaty, acts as the agent of a State to carry the treaty out, or to claim rights and benefits under it, as the case may be, and is bound or entitled accordingly.

    2. In consequence, the treaty obligation, once assumed by or on behalf of the State, is not affected, in respect of its international validity or operative force, by any of the following circumstances:

    (a) That there has been a change of government or regime in any State party to the treaty;

    (b) That some particular organ of the State (whether executive, administrative, legislative or judicial) is responsible for any breach of the treaty;

    [c] That a diminution in the assets of the State, or territorial changes affecting the extent of the area of the State by loss or transfer of territory (but not affecting its existence or identity as a State), have occurred, unless the treaty itself specifically relates to the particular assets or territory concerned.

    In all such cases, the treaty obligation remains internationally valid, and the State will incur responsibility for any failure to carry it out….

  340. gus1940 says:

    Zlister Jack.

  341. CameronB Brodie says:

    Remember, I’m not an international lawyer. However, it is my opinion that the British state has lost any credibility it had, as it intends harming Scotland’s civic society by leaving the EU, against the express wishes of the Scottish electorate. The state intends to enforce legal change on our individual legal personalities, even though we voted to retain our EU citizenship. That is the actions of a totalitarian state, not a liberal democracy. Then again, British nationalism is the practice of Tory tradition and ethos, so you can’t expect a respect for natural law in Brexitania.

    Sovereignty and Human Rights in Contemporary
    International Law

  342. Ealasaid says:

    Today’s Indycar Gordon Ross

  343. Breeks says:

    Thepnr says:
    25 July, 2019 at 3:26 pm
    “Westminster cannot overrule our Remain mandate.”

    Yes they can and they are doing it right under our noses…

    Can somebody else explain the concept of Sovereignty to these bright sparks? I give up. I have a life.


  344. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m not an international lawyer but I do have a bit of a skooby. I’m also pretty sure that ditching the “Precautionary Principle”, is a key aim of those behind the full-English Brexit. Such social action conforms to the denial of science that is a significant feature of the New Right’s world view. Of course, if you deny science, you deny rational jurisprudence. This again is compatible with the philosophy of the New Right.

    Sovereignty in International Law


    We aimed at highlighting in this paper, after analyzing the transformations that took place in the international society, the importance of a particularly sensitive and current topic for public international law, namely the sovereignty. A political and legal concept at the same time, the state sovereignty remains permanently into the attention of researchers in an attempt to determine its role in international relations governed by the international law.

    The concept of sovereignty is complex, it can be analyzed in terms of the national law, but as a member of international society, a State participates in international relations on the basis of sovereign equality principle, which causes another meaning of sovereignty, which completes the one specific to the internal life.

    We have analyzed the evolution of the concept of sovereignty and we have identified the causes that led to changes in its characteristics, in order to predict the tendencies in its development. We have highlighted the aspects of the exercise of sovereignty as a result of limiting the powers of state in the favor of international bodies. In preparing this article we have used as research methods the analysis of the problems generated by mentioned subject with reference to the doctrinal views expressed in specialized papers, documentary research, and interpretation of legal norms in the field.

    sovereign state; independency; international law; globalization, BioPower

  345. CameronB Brodie says:

    ‘Taking back control’, i.e. asserting “external” sovereignty is intrinsically anti-democratic if the process undermines the “internal” sovereignty of the State’s subjects (see N. Korea, for example).

    Sovereignty, International Law and Democrac


    In my reply to Jeremy Waldron’s article ‘Are Sovereigns Entitled to the Benefit of the International Rule of Law?’, I draw upon and in some ways expand Waldron’s important contribution to our understanding of the international rule of law.

    First of all, I suggest that Waldron’s argument about the international rule of law can be used to illuminate how we should understand the legitimate authority of international law over sovereign states, but also how some of sovereign states’ residual independence ought to be protected from legitimate international law.

    Secondly, I argue that the democratic pedigree of the international rule of law plays a role when assessing how international law binds democratic sovereign states and whether the international rule of law can and ought to benefit their individual subjects.

    Finally, I emphasize how Waldron’s argument that the international rule of law ought to benefit individuals in priority has implications for the sources of international law and for what sources can be regarded as sources of valid law.

    Over to you Scottish judiciary.

  346. Ealasaid says:

    Indycar Gordon Ross part 2 about AUOB march at Campbelltown on Saturday.

  347. CameronB Brodie says:

    I don’t know why the “y” was missed out from “Democracy”. I do think the full-English Brexit should be viewed as an abuse of constitutional power and an attack on the spirit of the international human rights law.

    Sovereignty and Structure

    INTERNATIONAL LAW CONCEPTUALLY brings legal order to international political and economic developments by a rich ensemble of diverse rules, principles, instruments, and institutions. What binds this ensemble together into a coherent structure is a deep-rooted commitment to a concept of sovereignty as an international legal entitlement that vests in collectivities internationally recognized as States.

    International law confers legal validity on claims by States to extensive coercive power over people and territory by conceptualizing this power as State sovereignty. It vests States with legal authority to exercise this power at home and abroad. By legally validating some claims of sovereign power and refusing to validate others, international law organizes global politics into a legal order in which certain collectivities possess international legal authority to govern people and territory.

    International law shapes global politics into a legal order not only by legally validating some claims of sovereign power and refusing to validate others. International legal norms that perform this validating function also effectively produce an ongoing distribution of sovereign power among geographically concentrated collectivities that international law recognizes as States.

    International law has recognized the sovereign power of some States for centuries, with the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia, discussed in more detail in Chapter 5, often portrayed as sovereignty’s first moment of recognition. In other cases, international legal recognition has been much more of a recent phenomenon. Namibia, for instance, acquired sovereignty roughly twenty-five years ago. And, of course, international law also withholds legal recognition of claims of sovereign power from other collectivities that it does not recognize as States.

    Although indigenous people now formally enjoy extensive rights of internal self-determination in international law,1 for example, they do not – by virtue of their indigeneity – possess a right of external self-determination that would enable them to acquire sovereign independence from the States in which they are located. The legal norms that international law relies on to perform these tasks render the distribution of sovereignty they produce capable of recalibration and realignment in light of new political developments deemed to possess international legal significance.

    International law thus extends legal validity to the exercise of sovereign power by States and performs an ongoing distribution of sovereignty among those collectivities it recognizes as States. This chapter examines in more detail these two contributions that the concept of sovereignty makes to the structure of international law. It does so because they constitute the terrain on which international human rights legally operate.

    The legal norms that international law relies on to distribute and authorize the exercise of sovereign power have been defended for numerous reasons, including the need “for a presumptive monopoly of the last word on public order in any given territory.”2 Sovereignty also possesses a measure of normative purchase to the extent that people can and do flourish by being organized into particular political communities and, in doing so, generate a complex set of interests that merit protection.3

    And, although it does not guarantee it, “sovereignty protects the normatively special status of members and their prerogative to assess the legitimacy of their domestic system, and to struggle to make it more just, more democratic, and more inclusive.”4 Despite these and other values associated with the role that sovereignty plays in lending structure to the international legal order, it also produces an array of adverse consequences that international human rights, on the account offered in this book, seek to rectify.

    Subsequent chapters focus on adverse consequences that arise from the fact that international law extends legal validity to the discretionary exercise of sovereign power by States (Chapter 3); that international institutional arrangements provide legal validity to processes of economic globalization and transnational production (Chapter 4); that international law episodically transfers the power to govern peoples and territories from some sovereign legal actors to others (Chapter 5); that some collectivities have their sovereignty legally recognized for centuries while, for others, international legal recognition is a recent phenomenon (Chapter 6); that sovereign legal authority vests in some collectivities and not others (Chapter 7); and that the international distribution of sovereign power participates in the production and reproduction of global poverty (Chapter 8)….

  348. Katie says:

    Thanks to everyone who tried to explain my query that I posted last night.There is really a lot of information there which I am still wading through it all. Also, I am sorry if this has caused friction between members. It sounds to me that if we want to get out of UK no matter what the complexities are we must just all stick together and lets try and make it happen. If we don’t I really think we are all donald ducked!!

    Again, thanks guys! 🙂

  349. CameronB Brodie says:

    Was the Brexit vote not compromised by illegal electioneering practice? I believe it was felt to have been so corrupted, by the UK Supreme Court. Yet the slim majority that was achieved in an advisory consultation exercise, has been turned into hard constitutional law. Despite existing Treaty law protecting Scottish culture.

    British democracy is a joke, but a lot of you already knew that. 😉

    Debunking the Idea of Parliamentary Sovereignty: The Controlling Factor of Legality in the British Constitution


    This article explores the idea of Parliamentary sovereignty in British constitutional theory. Two general explanations for this idea are considered: firstly, that the existence of a sovereign entity is a conceptually necessary precondition for the existence of a state or constitution; secondly, that Parliament is sovereign, if it is, in virtue of a rule of recognition whose existence and content may be empirically determined. The former account, it is suggested, looms large in orthodox British constitutional theory but cannot be sustained.

    Herbert Hart’s version of the latter account is examined by reference to the decision in Jackson v Attorney General but is also found wanting. Given the inadequacy of these accounts, it is contended that the idea of Parliamentary sovereignty is misconceived. Building on insights in the work of Hart and Dworkin, it is argued that the British constitution instead rests on the ideal of government under law or the principle of legality. The putative value of legality, it is contended, will shape or control the many different principles that condition the exercise of official power.

  350. Thepnr says:


    The people are sovereign. They will decide the constitution that Scotland will have. Even the No voters, get it now?

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