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The Old Billy Boys Club

Posted on September 01, 2018 by

While ploughing through hundreds of pages of hysterical drivel about Alex Salmond in the Scottish press this week, extra-alert readers may have also been aware of quite a stushie going on between the SNP-controlled Glasgow City Council (GCC) and a group of representatives and fans of Scotland’s newest professional football club The Rangers FC, such as Tory list MSP Adam “WATP” Tomkins (pictured below).

And it’s quite the alliance.

Because aside from Tomkins, most of the people sending out dog-whistle signals to the more primitive sections of the club’s support are trying to settle a score almost as old as the ancient battles the club’s supporters are still obsessed with.

The picture above is of the “Rangers” directors box at a match against Hibs in 2015, at which the usual tiny minority of home supporters sang bigot anthem “The Billy Boys”.

Sitting next to each other in the bottom left quadrant of the pic, left to right, are now-deceased Glasgow Labour councillor Alistair Watson; former Labour GCC leader, MSP and sexy-child fan Frank “dark and dusky” McAveety (glasses, holding programme); former Strathclyde Partnership for Transport chief Bob Wylie; and former Glasgow Labour councillor George Redmond (grey mac, tartan scarf).

What all four men have in common is being the subject of newspaper exposés about dodgy expenses junkets while on or working for the council. The first three were at the centre of a scandal over a non-existent “fact-finding” trip to Manchester funded by taxpayers which miraculously happened to coincide with Rangers’ appearance in the 2008 Uefa Cup final in the city, while Redmond was highlighted in the press for jetting off to New York and the French Riviera with McAveety and Wylie in the dying months of the Labour administration.

Redmond was also involved in a very controversial £500,000 payoff to the director of an Easterhouse “regeneration agency” in 2013, using money that had been earmarked for the redevelopment of a school in the deprived area.

(Readers may wish to contrast this with the £90,000 contractual entitlement recently paid to the departing head of NHS Tayside, which Labour created a huge fuss about after falsely claiming it was £300,000.)

Wylie stepped down from SPT not long after the Manchester affair and later became a special adviser to McAveety at the council and subsequently communications director of the Unite trade union. McAveety and Watson were re-elected as councillors in 2012 and 2017, while Redmond carried on in 2012 but stood down in 2017. But all (except Watson, obviously) seem set on revenge against both the SNP and the ungrateful voters of Glasgow for kicking Labour out of the City Chambers after 80 years.

The council’s rejection of a “fanzone” at Ibrox on matchdays was triggered simply and reasonably by objections from a local community group to the intended takeover of a publicly-owned football pitch, which was booked on 14 out of 26 home matchdays last season – something which doesn’t apply to a similar fanzone at Hampden.

But Labour and Tory politicians have whipped up the uglier elements of the “Rangers” fanbase by groundlessly alleging the decision was motivated by bias and bigotry because – surprisingly – some SNP councillors in Glasgow support Celtic.

(Celtic fans? In Glasgow? What are the odds, eh?)

(We think “Club 1872” must be a reference to how many days the club had existed for when the supporter group came into being.)

In issuing angry allegations of bias around the issue, the club has strenuously rejected the claim that it’s seeking to stoke sectarianism by pandering to the prejudices of the large Loyalist-bigot element of its support.

Meanwhile, senior members of the two Unionist parties have been enthusiastically backing each other on the matter, including former BBC staffer and Labour deputy minister Alasdair Morrison, who also now works as a consultant for the new Rangers:

Frank McAveety is in fact a Celtic supporter – albeit one with a curious fondness for attending Rangers and “Rangers” matches – so it’s extra-specially nice to see so many people uniting for once with both football and party rivals against the one enemy they all really hate.

After all, we’re sure they’d hate to lose those comfy padded blue seats, in every sense of that word.

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    1. 01 09 18 14:56

      The Old Billy Boys Club | speymouth

    178 to “The Old Billy Boys Club”

    1. Ian Brotherhood says:

      McAveety attended the SIU Burns dinner in Glasgow back in February. I remember it well because he told oor ain Ronnie Anderson to ‘get tae fuck’ when challenged as to why he was supporting the event.

    2. Croompenstein says:

      We think “Club 1872” must be a reference to how many days the club had existed for when the supporter group came into being

      Stu FFS just spat oot half a jam doughnut there.. LOL 😀

    3. Chris Downie says:

      I’ll bet most of them are Masons as well.

    4. HandandShrimp says:

      I am not hugely conversant with the old firm sectarian patter or football generally to be honest and it was only very recently that I discovered that WATP didn’t stand for What a Total Prick.

      My bad :/

    5. defo says:

      Brown paper envelope sales in Glasgow have taken a severe dip in recent years..

    6. Giving Goose says:

      Jeezuzffffingchrist! Can’t these a***holes and idiots just grow up!

    7. Albaman says:

      When it comes to Rangers and Celtic, I’m out of here and I’m just glad I’m a rugby fan !.

    8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “it was only very recently that I discovered that WATP didn’t stand for What a Total Prick.”

      Now now. Everyone knows it stands for We Aren’t Tax Payers.

    9. Walter Gallacher says:

      Deliberately misleading. The pitch had been booked on 3 occasions out of 13 SATURDAY home matches. Each of the 3 bookings for 2 hours each. Plenty of room for discussion and negotiation imo and the motivations, roles and activities of publically elected officials and politicians should always be examined. A frankly ridiculous article from WoS.

    10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Deliberately misleading.”

      Take your complaint up with the Evening Times, whose FOI and subsequent report those figures are taken directly from.

      Or just fuck off, I don’t mind which.

    11. HandandShrimp says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      To be fair, McAveety is their diplomatic ambassador primarily because he is the only one in Glasgow Labour that can, at least two attempts out of three, spell diplomatic.

      They deserved to lose that election. They ran Glasgow like Frank Miller’s Basin City.

    12. Bob Mack says:

      The guy you mentioned in your article who was paid off £500,000, actually worked on an initiative to bring jobs to the East End of Glasgow.

      If I remember correctly he managed in his time in post to accrue less than twelve full time jobs.

      This was Labour in Glasgow. Jobs for friends family and “business”associates. Someone should ask them why all delapidated sites owned by them when they were in charge, had posters all over them warning that they were patrolled by “security” companies,all owned by criminals and organised crime.

      Shady ,shoddy and corrupt.It wS ever so in Glasgow during my youth.

    13. Croompenstein says:

      Or just fuck off, I don’t mind which

      AW Stu you’ve din it again hahahaha… 🙂

    14. Brotyboy says:

      @HandandShrimp

      Kudos.

    15. Robert Andrew says:

      @Chris Donnie, what does being a freemason have to do with anything?

    16. Tom says:

      I own a penny whistle and last year I bought myself a saxophone, at the time I thought I could buy something else instead. A flute was immediately ruled out because of the bigotry involved with it. I can just imagine the assumptions people would make when they found out someone owned a flute.

    17. Arbroath1320 says:

      Or just fuck off, I don’t mind which.

      You know peeps there are times I think Stu is really getting tired. I’m quite sure had he been up to making a serious response he would have replied with something a lot stronger than just Or just fuck off, I don’t mind which. 😀

      Just like toe posters Stu you really need to just relax and let it all just flow out … don’t hold back! 🙂

    18. Arbroath1320 says:

      I hope that whilst everyone here is debating the “ins” and “outs” of RED and BLUE Tory get togethers there is a war, a REAL war, going on in this great country of ours … #SNPCivilWar …

      https://twitter.com/Cyrano821/status/1035825451720163328

    19. Macart says:

      Tory politics (both hues) and the sectarian vote.

      When it comes to mindless hatred and intimidation you couldn’t put a fag paper between them all really. Won’t stop those same political parties from passing legislation which’ll starve and impoverish their now bestest buds regardless. Their choice. *shrugs*

    20. Dan Huil says:

      British nationalists, whether they are football fans or not, live by hatred, especially hatred of Scotland.

    21. Dan Huil says:

      I see the fund for Alex Salmond’s costs for the judicial review is now £100,007

    22. Marcia says:

      Dan Huil

      The fundraiser has now been closed due to its success, so it is the final figure.

    23. Big Jock says:

      I just can’t get my head round this love of all things British. People just think they look like a bunch of unreconstructed Millwal casuals rampaging around with badly heads , fat necks and high blood pressure. They are the lowest of the low absolute scum.

    24. Capella says:

      What have you got against flutes? There is always something to learn onn WoS and here is a short video demonstrating the different sound of cheap and expensive flutes.

      My cat definitely likes the $20,000 Yamaha. He sat up and took notice of the bird like trills:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHMFdks4CGg

      The Billy Boys should stick in. Mozart’s Flute Concerto would be a bit of a challenge but with practice anything’s possible.

    25. Andy Anderson says:

      Thanks for the info Stu. Your story will be all over the Sunday’s tomorrow.

    26. K1 says:

      ‘We Are The Protestants’ is actually whit it means…imo.

    27. K1 says:

      Also noticed target reached Dan Huil and crowdfund now closed.

      Alex has of course done the right thing by not allowing the 28 day fund to play out, after the outstanding response and support from people across Scotland. (check out update on the site)

    28. Clootie says:

      One of the greatest benefits of achieving Independence will be the decline (I doubt it will ever end) in bigotry with regards to religion in Scotland.
      What will end with the demise of the Union will be the ability of elected bigots to favour or discriminate a sector of our citizens.

      It has gone on for far too long. It must end with the Union. It is not a coincidence that those who support the union are staunch supporters of Rangers and the Orange Order.

      Let me be clear I know many Rangers fans who support Independence and I do not include those many supporters who are dedicated football fans. Having said that I struggle to understand their loyalty to the Queen and the Union Flag.

      I grew up in the bigoted bias of a “good Protestant household”. My grandfathers sash and gauntlets in a glass case. The Queen and Philip on opposite walls and of course King Billy on his white charger above the mantelpiece…then I started as a young boy to read the history of this island and the Bruttish Empire.

      ….enough!

      On the plus side my Northern Irish roots gained me Irish Citizenship…they must be spinning at the betrayal 🙂

    29. Clootie says:

      @Macart 3:44pm

      …I thought you had written “taig paper” when I first read it,

    30. Capella says:

      Indykits for YES gruops has gone though the £8,000 mark to get match funding from the Scottish Independence Foundation. Well done everyone.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indy-kits-for-yes-groups/x/6553906#/

    31. Dan Huil says:

      @Marcia 4:02pm.

      Thanks Marcia. Aye, I just notcied that after I’d gone and posted my announcement. Saturday’s liquid lunch to blame.

    32. Capella says:

      @ K1 – when I was at school – which admittedly was half way through a previous century – we used to amuse ourselves by writing “wee arra people” IN LATIN in our notebook. Sagitta parvum populo…I think.

      This was in Aberdeenshire so I had no idea it was a Rangers warcry.

      Shows the benefit of a classical education.

      Any dispatches from the front?

    33. K1 says:

      The Humous Brigade have settled Hyndland…we await further orders from Sturgeon, there’s no enough oatcakes fur ra troops. 🙂

      #SNPcivilWar

    34. Fred says:

      Anent the on-going Battle of Langside, they’ve been at it a good while! Check the graphics!

      https://urbanglasgow.co.uk/the-battle-of-langside-t1118.html

    35. Adam Tomkins the cuckoo in the nest,I did read somewhere that he and Oliver Mundell at meetings to discuss that even name Scotland should be removed,and become North Britain. How many Tories are involved in this devious planning. Only asking.???

    36. David Smith says:

      @Robert Andrew

      I’ve yet to meet one who isn’t a right wing Royalist bigot.
      Now I accept that these are only the ones I know of but I wouldn’t trust any of those examples further than I could throw them.
      Some very incompetent individuals I knew in my previous career got promoted way above their abilities due to their connections.
      It never seemed to interrupt their progress though…

    37. Liz M says:

      My favourite flautist is Jethro Tulls Ian Anderson (Dunfermline born). Still listen to a lot of their music. Heavy Horses, Too Old To Rock and Roll (But to Young to Die) and Broadsword being particular favourites.

    38. Robert Peffers says:

      @Walter Gallacher says: 1 September, 2018 at 3:02 pm:

      … Deliberately misleading.”

      I know what is, “Deliberately misleading”, Walter, and if you are genuine in what you claim is, “In your Opinion”, I can only assume you are misled by the several rather strange and unsubstantiated reports you based your opinion upon.

      However, if it is not your actually honest opinion then you are a typical sectarian bigot and I have my own honest opinion on that score.

    39. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Andrew says: 1 September, 2018 at 3:14 pm:

      ” … @Chris Donnie, what does being a freemason have to do with anything?”

      Err! Robert, hadn’t you best ask the Masons that question? – They are, after all, a Secret Society, so who the hell but they know what they really are.

    40. Ken500 says:

      Sectarianism has destroyed football in Scotland. No wonder the terraces are empty.

    41. Phil Patrick says:

      I always thought that WATP, meant “We admire the Pope”

    42. Dr Jim says:

      So not to do with football then? Oh right?
      To do with religion then? can’t be because they say they’re inclusive and have no religious bias

      Is this political? well if it is I’m shocked that the fitbaw sepportuurs would have taken the time to attempt to read a lengthy document of more than half a dozen words wae grammur in thum

      On a serious note the use of sectarianism and bigotry by British Nationalist list and non elected politicians has been a sickening look for our politics in Scotland and led out of desperation for votes by Ruth Davidson Murdo Fraser and Adam Tomkins to name but a few

      GCC has shown these bigots the facts and yet they cry bigot
      because they’re used to getting their own way by the use of their own previously installed bigots backhanders and users

      Looks like things are being done by the book now and not off the books the old way

      Go SNP keeping it legal

    43. Petra says:

      I don’t know much about football, but what I do know is that Frank McAveety was a key player in ensuring that Equal Pay cases across Scotland were blocked / or had to be appealed against, costing the Scottish tax-payers £millions.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_McAveety

    44. defo says:

      Supposedly, the McCain memorialathon is going to conclude with a CGI of him riding the bomb in Dr Strangelove.

    45. Abulhaq says:

      The Celtic/Rangers and Hearts/Hibernian thing belongs on the other side of the North Channel.
      It has zilch to do with Scotland with its Irish patriotic symbols and militant (Ulster Protestant) Unionism.
      Irish nationalism or British nationalism both in their respective ways do our country no service.
      They are alien accretions. Bin them!

    46. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      They used to say that patriotism was the last refuge of the scoundrel, and in the local context you could say the exact same about Bigots United. If you have to stoke up sectarianism and appease other ugly manifestations of the worst types of human behaviour in order to scrape votes, you are worthy only of contempt.

      You can tell a person by the friends they keep, or try to claim.

    47. Big Jock says:

      I have been watching that Nick Nairn Ulster Scots programme. They go to Canada and discover little enclaves of Ulster Scots. In the last one there were references to the Boyne, Londonderry and King Billy. I don’t think I will watch it again. They pretended it was someone of cozy nostalgia.

    48. Jimmock says:

      I’m sure I just heard Catrione Renton on the news say that the Braemar gathering featured tossing the caber, throwing the hammer and tugging the forelock. Did the BBC win the last named event?

    49. jfngw says:

      From independence supporting republican to flag waving royalist for the Queen’s eleven, such a transformation and in so short a time. Can anybody with any integrity really change so dramatically or is any port in a storm the catch all position of someone who looks like a chancer. We’ll be prefixing him Gorgeous soon.

      I sometimes get the feeling some people are bitter because they just weren’t good enough for the independence movement.

    50. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      OT slightly

      Rumours abound that Ruth Davidson may leave Scotland to be a furure PM.

      Praise the good lord, hallelujah, lets us pray she takes many of her colleagues with her.

      I predict that she will be as successful a PM as our present one.

    51. Dr Jim says:

      Bad weather over Glasgow forces the RAF Red Arrows to cancel fly past

      I live in Bishopbriggs Glasgow and amazingly can see the sky from my window as a police helicopter circled and flew away and holiday jets are coming in for landing over the Campsie hills, it’s not even raining and there’s no wind so what are these bad weather conditions they speak of

      Is it the clouds of discontent they fear

    52. Bobp says:

      Walter gallagher.3.02pm. Gallagher, thats a southern irish name isnt it. That must choke you.

    53. Walter Gallacher says:

      Yes Stu C “Deliberately misleading” – you know fine well a significant number of home matches are not played on a Saturday, after all you are a football fan. The number of times the facility was used on a Saturdayover that period has already been confirmed by Glasgow Life. You are normally more analytical when presented with reports and data but you make exceptions to suit. I’ve no interest in complaining to the ET because I am simply telling you the facts. It’s a measure of your maturity or otherwise how you then respond.

      Robert Peffers – I fail to see what is unreasonable about my view that a negotiated solution between the club and the council is feasible. Why that puts me in your categorisation of ‘sectarian bigot’ may say a bit more about you than it does me.

    54. Roughian says:

      Wasn’t Bob Wylie a BBC Scotland reporter as well? Capella I was playing Mozart Flute Concerto in G at the age of 15.

    55. jfngw says:

      @Jason Smoothpiece

      What you can predict is, if Davidson goes there will be a sudden increase in interest of Westminster activities in Reporting Scotland, after all she is one of theirs.

      How does that song go?

      When you go please don’t send me, a letter from Westminster.

    56. harry mcaye says:

      Walter Gallagher – it’s surely only now that Rangers have qualified for the Europa League group stages (played on a Thursday night) that Rangers will now play more home games on a Sunday. Most home games last season took place on a Saturday. Old Firm (sic) matches are reserved for Sundays nowadays for live telly. Rangers home games are rarely shown live, while virtually all their away games are live on BT or SKY.

      Roughian – Bob Wylie was indeed a BBC Scotland reporter for many years.

    57. Dr Jim says:

      If Davidson goes to London it’s not because she’s clever it’s because she’s not clever enough for Scotland and life’s easier in the London protected circle of the Tory party down south where she won’t have to hide because she can’t answer questions

      Davidson knows there’s no career for her in Scotland so now or in the future she’ll jump because she wants that ermine and a wee bit of history like her predecessor failure Annabel Goldie who to be fair was actually a cleverer and nicer person than Ruth Davidson

    58. Walter Gallacher says:

      Harry – games were changed for TV and midweek. 13 were at home on a Saturday over the last season. The facility was hired 3 times each for 2 hours during that period. You are probably correct in that more games will be moved from a Saturday this year so the impact may be even less. Instead of politicians of all sides accusing each other of stirring up sectarianism a sensible accommodation of all sides could be found and I am sure Rangers could as a gesture do many things such as offer more free coaching to kids in the area. This could be an opportunity for the local area.

    59. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Bobp at 7.24

      The name Gallacher has descended in many cases from the description in gaelic given to Scottish mercenaries who went with Edward Bruce to try to win the kingdom of Dublin (Dubh Linn – black pool)from the English. They were originally mainly from Argyll

    60. Croompenstein says:

      FFS Walter the politicians agreed with the proposal it was the local community council that objected but, of course, you know that already 🙁

    61. Thepnr says:

      @Walter Gallacher

      “I fail to see what is unreasonable about my view that a negotiated solution between the club and the council is feasible.”

      I wouldn’t disagree in any way with your statement if you are referring to the Ibrox and Cessnock Community Council and not Glasgow City Council.

      As far as I understand the matter, GCC can only sanction the fanzone if the objection by the Community Council is resolved with the club first.

      This article is not really about that anyway is it? It is about Tory and Labour politicians who just happen to support Glasgow Rangers stirring up trouble among supporters of Rangers against an SNP run GCC for their own political ends.

      It is not a good look and if I’m honest it looks like the regular fans are being used by those that wish to create division and not find an amicable solution.

      Why would they want such a thing, the fact is they don’t.

    62. Bob Mack says:

      @Walter Gallagher.

      The roles of public officials in Glasgow have been examined, and found wanting. That is why Labour are no longer in charge.

      They gave sectarian marches care blanche in exchange for votes. Numerous members in masonic lodges. More Orange Lodge marches sanctioned per year than even Belfast by Labour Councils. Rather obvious that now it is Unionists turn to complain, whereas they kept their mouths firmly shut when others had to endure this year long disgrace.

      Now it’s no fair because for the first time in many many years they are being held to existing legislation. Too bad. Suck it up like we had to.

    63. Robert Peffers says:

      @Walter Gallacher says: 1 September, 2018 at 7:31 pm:

      ” … Robert Peffers – I fail to see what is unreasonable about my view that a negotiated solution between the club and the council is feasible.”

      Yes! I realise you fail to see it. Strangely that is a known sign about sectarian bigots. They do not see what everyone else sees as very apparent.

      ” … Why that puts me in your categorisation of ‘sectarian bigot’ may say a bit more about you than it does me.”

      Sure it does show more about me than it does about you – which is, of course, my point.

      It is like this, Walter. I have no axe to grind as I belong to no articular Christian sect. Point of fact I do not believe in Gods – so whatever Jesus Christ was it most certainly was not a God , (as in the belief in the Trinity), nor a son of a God as gods do not exist. Now that’s simple.

      So not being biased either way I can look at the matter totally logically and totally unbiased. Now here’s the point and it is made in the article. The little matter of public & private use. Rangers FC, (if indeed they legally still exist, have their own private land but choose not to use it but book public land and thus it is not available for use by the public.

      Then there is that little matter of the attitude taken by the bigots. They really do imagine, “They, and only they”, are, “The People”. Sorry and all that but legally, and I quote, “The People of Scotland”, not just Protestants, not just Scots born, not just Born of Scots parents but people, mainly resident in Scotland who pay their tax and are registered to vote in Scottish elections.

      All of them and not just those who call themselves, “The people”, and imagine the Queen of England is sovereign while waving the Butcher’s Apron and singing sectarian songs, (and before you even think otherwise – NO I DO NOT SUPPORT CELTIC. I haven’t attended a senior football march since around the 1970s.

    64. Vestas says:

      Supporters of the “Queen’s Eleven” are (mainly) unionist scum.

      Well colour me surprised.

      Who’d have ever thought that the most evil “sports club” in history would be like that?

    65. Clapper57 says:

      Adam Tomkins, list MSP , whose party’s reason (not really) for not wanting another Indy Ref is apparently because of the DIVISION it creates. Yet somehow Adam is not averse to generating a little bit of DIVISION himself by publicly nailing his (blue) colours firmly onto the WATP mast .

      Adam does this while fully aware of the contentious rivalry and DIVISION that exists between his team and another well known Glasgow team…..a DIVISION that far exceeds mere sporting rivalry.

      However the political benefits to be had via votes are worthy of his public display of loyalty to the Queens 11 and the resulting potential DIVISION that is surely guaranteed to ensue in those other fans from their main opposition team.

      Yes tis obvious Adam is promoting the message that his party is THE natural political home for the Billy boys and his support is not from any natural exuberance from a fan’s perspective but tis a more devious and obvious enticement to those Billy boys easily influenced and willing to align with Adam’s party in return for his alignment to them .

      However there is a something quite toxic and very worrying about a political figure who repeatedly publicly champions a specific football team to so obviously capitalize on ensuring future political support from a section of Scottish society ( but whose fan base is not exclusively within Scotland) renowned for their aggressive and unrelenting bigotry. This is also very dangerous territory as it encourages and gives credence to unacceptable behaviour being condoned and supported instead of condemned and alienated .

      It is not Adam Tomkins, list MSP, place to voice his opinion in this instance as he can hardly be called an impartial observer indeed his bias towards Rangers should invalidate his intervention and thus it should be disregarded and considered unwarranted . His position, in this matter, may be one of NO SURRENDER and of blatant opportunism against what he sees as his main political rivals i.e. the SNP but that in itself is why he has no right to force his argument when it is obvious that it is he who is being partisan in this instance.

      Why Adam feels this compulsion to perpetually promote his allegiance to the bigoted Billy boys when everyone knows that the very people he targets in order to win votes have no intention of ever supporting either Independence or the SNP as their British credentials are well known or rather shown in their many public displays in their waving and displaying of the union jack .

      One can only surmise that he is not content at being simply a mere supporter of The Rangers but that he tactically recognises his endorsement guarantees the Billy boys will , in return, support him and his party….which pretty much makes a strong case for supporting both the SNP and independence……….. as the alternative , in the form of supporting and voting for the Tories, surely ensures that we remain hindered in our quest to see the fruition of a more tolerant , vibrant and inclusive society in an independent Scotland.

      I think more Scots should challenge why a Tory list MSP is intervening in such a forceful manner in a matter outwith his remit as a (unelected) member of the Scottish parliament and he should explain why he is abusing his position as a list MSP to benefit a football team that he supports while simultaneously attacking the SNP led Glasgow council. Now that is the real issue here and one that the media should , if we had a proper media, question his involvement in . A worrying trend indeed and one that in respect to Tory political candidates and elected members is becoming all too common .

      It is also very much worth noting not ALL Rangers fans are drawn to the dark side in either their behaviour, , opinions, attitude or choice of political party.

    66. robertknight says:

      WATP

      We
      Adore
      The
      Pope

    67. Bobp says:

      DMH 8.22pm. You live and learn dave.

    68. Croompenstein says:

      WATP. By the look of some of the fat Yoons it must be Where Are The Pies 🙂

    69. remo says:

      @ Liz M 5.11 pm
      I used to love Jethro Tull and bought loads of their albums. I have gone off them somewhat since the last I heard was that Ian Anderson was not pro-indy and I believe he said so in interviews before the referendum.

    70. Capella says:

      @ Roughian – I’m impressed! Perhaps you could coach the Billy Boys so we might get a decent tune out of them?
      @ Liz M – and James Galloway too – he was principal flautist in the Berlin Philharmonic. He could teach them a tune or two.

    71. Walter Gallacher says:

      Ignoring those don’t know me but who oddly think my surname ‘chokes’ me and others who are adamant I am a sectarian bigot because I support Rangers and I am calling out the actions of the council (and yes I’m perfectly aware it’s Govan and Cessnock), it is actually perfectly legitimate and democratic to question the actions of all politicians. In this case it is clear the reasons they have given for refusing the fan zone are questionable based on hard data. It should be remembered also that Rangers encourage local kids to play football through coaching. You then have a right to quite legitimately question the motives of the decision makers. It is possible they did not receive all the data. I would accept that if true and we can all move on and review the decision with fresh data. If they received all the relevant data then it looks like an odd decision which I imagine is why some politicians are referring to partisan behaviour. If independence means there is no questioning of our politicians and their motives simply because they are ‘one of us’ then the movement has very serious problems.

    72. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Apologies in advance for the length of this post – if you’re not in the mood to read a rant then you may want to scroll down…

      🙂

      I don’t understand, and never will, the squeamishness about calling out likely intelligence assets, spies, spooks, whatever you want to call them.

      We *know* that they’re everywhere and have been particularly active vis-a-vis Scottish independence as far back as Defoe and very probably much further back again, but as soon as anyone is actually fingered then the accusations of ‘conspiracy-nutter’ start flying. It’s lazy, it’s counterproductive, and most damaging of all, perhaps, it perpetuates the illusion that we have anything remotely resembling a genuine democracy in this ‘country’. We don’t. To quote Primal Scream, we have a ‘military-industrial illusion’ of what it might be, purveyed by unimaginably powerful institutions which exist solely to profit from our long-term ignorance and illness.

      Leask was asked (pre-warned, clearly) if he was an MI5 agent, and laughed it off just that wee bit too lightly. But has Ruth ever been asked directly? Her CV is perfect. In fact, it’s hard to imagine that she *isn’t* an actual spook. It would also help explain why she’s been protected by the MSM – I’m not saying that they’ve been D-Noticed to leave her alone but how else can we even begin to explain the almost complete lack of media interest in the Dark Money story?

      If this article by the Rev proves nothing else (and we know many readers switch-off whenever football is the context) it is that the same faces/names are remarkably adept at forming partnerships with groups and individuals (who are, ostensibly, political enemies) if the BTUKOK nexus which serves their common interests is even remotely threatened.

      I have a friend who was facing financial problems (approx a decade ago) and the situation seemed very serious, he had lost his very well-paid job through no fault of his own and there seemed no realistic prospect of him getting a similar gig anytime soon (as it happened, he did). But he didn’t seem exactly distraught about it. After a good few ‘shandies’ he said ‘Look, it’s not a big deal. We won’t lose the house. We won’t even have to sell one of the cars. Her old man won’t let it happen. He’d never ever let that happen.’ (His paw-in-law was a Glaswegian pub-owner, ran a place which had been in the family for generations. He was also a multi-millionaire who disguised it very well.) A situation which would have many others crumbling with the sheer stress of it all was not worth worrying *that* much about.

      If you haven’t that safety-blanket underpinning your every waking moment then it’s almost impossible to imagine what such people are capable of when it comes to maintaining their status, power and control. It certainly helps explain why Labour politicians in particular appear to have enormous (and genuine!) difficulty in realising that their hegemony in Scotland is over. For many of them (we all have our favourites but I’m remembering that clown Brian Donohoe) it is literally unthinkable that the Scottish working-class don’t automatically vote for them. They simply cannot process that reality, no matter what polls or actual results tell them, and end-up emitting the sort of shite we’ve come to expect from Marra, Dugdale, Murphy, Kelly and all the rest of them.

      I’ve rambled, and apologise again, but I can’t help getting frustrated about this stuff – I wish I had filmed McAveety telling Ronnie Anderson to ‘get tae fuck’. Many of us have met Ronnie and know what size he is, how little patience he has with bullies and braggards. But the way McAveety spoke to him was extraordinary – he simply didn’t give a fuck who heard him and kept his hands in the big overcoat, looked totally relaxed. Everything about his body-language screamed Alpha-male, unruffled, untouchable. He wasn’t trying to look ‘gallus’ – he genuinely *is* fuckin gallus in the very worst sense of the word, and it typifies Scottish Labour’s sense of entitlement, their indestructible arrogance.

      We know the spooks are everywhere, but many of us, deep-down, don’t want to admit it. It’s about time we did.

    73. Wee bud says:

      I’m away for a shower after reading that..

      Hope it’s a boring 0-0 draw tomorrow to keep domestic and criminal assaults to a minimum.

    74. K1 says:

      ‘…If independence means there is no questioning…’

      Independence has absolutely nothing to do with with this subject?

      The rest of your last comment seems to be mostly speculation:

      ‘it is clear the reasons they have given for refusing the fan zone are questionable based on hard data.’

      Could you provide links or references to what you are referring to?

      ‘You then have a right to quite legitimately question the motives of the decision makers.’

      Why? Again can you please give us all some context to what you are referring to exactly?

      ‘f they received all the relevant data then it looks like an odd decision’

      Why? On what grounds, given the email exchange has been released into the public domain, and explains the ‘grounds’ of why the fanzone was rejected, is the decision ‘odd’?

    75. English immigrants like Tomkins have no idea how entrenched sectarianism has blighted Scotland for decades,

      for all born Scots it has been a constant darkness,an evil in the shadows,

      you have a 6th sense not to conjure it up in conversations if you do not know `the team they support`,

      Tomkins,like Gazza with the flute thing, are just immigrants that do not really understand their new countries social mores,

      whereas Murdo Fraser `knows the score` and still tries to whip up sectarian hatred in Scotland,

      Tomkins ignorance has been exploited by Murdo and Ruth and BBC.

    76. Clapper57 says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood @ 9.37pm

      Hi Ian, if that is you ranting then please rant some more because twas one of the best rants nay comments, and far exceeds any rants I have indulged in Lol ,that I have read on here for a long time….no disrespect intended to other wingers who are also way up there in articulating their opinions.

      Am way impressed and in awe of your obvious writing ability.

      Gaun yirsel.

      Have a good evening.

    77. Thepnr says:

      @Walter Gallacher

      Are you also aware then that the Community Council are not “politicians”, they are unelected and all are volunteers?

      Their own code requires that the community council remain non-party political in all it’s activities and that they must be consulted by law over such a matter as granting of a license for the fanzone.

      Rangers football club need to get their act together and come to an agreement with the local CC and maybe then a license could be granted by GCC.

      What has any of that though got to do with Tory and Labour politicians stirring up hatred against the SNP politicians on GCC? Personally I think it would be far better for the club to do more to satisfy the local communities concerns over this issue than to join in with some sort of vendetta against GCC.

      Read this if you haven’t already and get the bigger picture.

      https://twitter.com/SusaninLangside/status/1035873409127903232

      https://twitter.com/SusaninLangside/status/1035873409127903232

    78. Fireproofjim says:

      Croompenstein
      Or possibly – We Ate The Pies

    79. stu mac says:

      @K1 says:
      1 September, 2018 at 4:10 pm
      ‘We Are The Protestants’ is actually…
      =============================

      You sound like an anti protestant bigot. All religions (have a look at the middle east and India) have bigots. All of them have some decent followers. What occurs between Celtic Rangers (with the latter being the worst) is a leftover of religion, not real religion. Hatred continuing long after any reason has long gone.

    80. Robert Peffers says:

      @Big Jock says: 1 September, 2018 at 6:47 pm:

      I have been watching that Nick Nairn Ulster Scots programme. They go to Canada and discover little enclaves of Ulster Scots.”

      Don’t know if you have realised the significance of the USAsian use of the derogatory term, “Hillbilly”, Big Jock, but these were originally the Irish/Scots immigrants to the USA. Factually the USA Country and Western music scene came from the old Scottish and Irish folk songs and much of the influence on the Jazz and blues comes also from that same influence.

      There are great similarities between the piping laments and the blues. New Orleans was a major port and the English Navigation Acts were used to limit trading with the English colonies to the English Mercantile Marine until after the Treaty of Union. However, even when the Navigation Acts were in force it was permissible for merchants of other countries to trade with the Americas if they either used English ships of their own ships if crewed by a mainly English crew.

      So, historically it was the Irish sectarianism that was imported into both Canada & the USA.

    81. GrahamB says:

      Ian B at 9:37
      I’ve had a couple of run-ins with McAveety while out campaigning and found him to be an arrogant tosser – I’ve mentioned them on here in the past. I was also told, by a now prominent councillor who would normally struggle to say anything bad about anyone, that McAveety’s sidekick Alistair Watson was a nasty bully. I watched the two of them at the council election count strutting about in their £1200 suits and silk red ties like something out of The Godfather. Not nice folk at all.

    82. K1 says:

      Ah completely agree with your frustration about ‘spook’s et al, especially in the Scottish context Ian. Ma own view is that people don’t ‘talk’ about it openly precisely because of the accusations of ‘conspiracy nutters’ etc. I also think there is a lot of fear around this subject, that ‘gallus’ thing transposes into ‘gangsters’ in the Glasgow/west of Scotland context. Brown envelopes and Labour are no strangers etc etc

      I think the BBC you tube link you put up last night was a very good example of the ‘dark money’ trail and leaves ye asking more questions about the ‘deep state’s’ involvement in our political processes, especially as that guy Cook was HQ’d in Scotland wi his ‘dirty money’ business. Even Jim Murphy’s comments were disturbing in terms of that guy, who he ran against in 2010. That he ‘nearly’ got into such a prominent position in Scottish politics backed by the Tories shows that something is deeply flawed in our political structures.

      It does leave ye wondering why these programmes don’t lead to prosecutions and a whole raft of other investigations that when watching, ye know should be happening on the back of documentaries such as this?

      And if we do discuss it on an open forum, to what end? I mean in private I think many do discuss the topic, but again, fear of ‘how’ this will be interpreted and without evidence et al, what purpose would it serve?

      Unless we have sure and certain proof we would just come across as a bit unhinged?

      Look what happened after indyref? I didn’t have any code on the back of my ballot papers…proxied for 2 others, lines of traffic heading out of Scotland the day after the vote, vans being directed elsewhere et al. What did it mean, we were all slapped down after that, on here too? The term ‘conspiracy’ theorists were bandied about, the very thought that our referendum was nobbled was given short shrift, I would say ‘especially’ ‘on our side’ at the time?

      Maybe that’s partly why we don’t get into it? Doesn’t mean we ain’t ‘acknowledging’ that something is defintely ‘afoot’ though?

    83. Walter Gallacher says:

      K1 – Data about pitch usage comes from Glasgow Life. Data about Rangers home games is widely available. Reason given for refusal is that it would have a negative effect on kids using the facility to play football which is odd given 6 hours were booked in an entire year but the value of the zone to the club and its supporters is significant. Sorry I’m not spending time dealing with all your points one by one and in detail and cutting and pasting as if responding to a business proposal. Finally, of course independence is relevant here. The accountability of politicians is vital and as this is an independence website primarily defending SNP politicians and most contributors are independence supporters it is relevant to the credibility of the independence movement that on this story people are willing to put blind faith in the actions of local politicians just because they are SNP, when in fact there are clearly questions to answer. If you can’t see that then I’m sorry but I can’t help you. This story isn’t going away but I am! I’ve spent enough time on it for now. The facts are all out there and we will see what happens.

    84. K1 says:

      Fucks sake stu mac, it was a joke, on the back of other ‘made up’ ‘names’ for WATP that others had also joined in with.

    85. Walter Gallacher says:

      Thepnr – I agree with you althat a negotiation is required.

    86. Thepnr says:

      @Walter Gallacher

      I’m glad that you agree because that is the best choice for RFC to make. To negotiate first with the Non-Political Community Council of Ibrox and Cessnock, obtain their agreement and then go back to GCC.

      Those non politicians that happen to live there should be the ones with the most influence as to what happens in their area where they happen to live.

      This story should never have been about the SNP and most definitely has nothing at all to do with Independence. It has only become so because politicians who are NOT in the SNP have decided to make something of it to score political points.

      I never normally comment on these “football” threads, this though has nothing to do with football and that much is clear.

      By the way I’m guessing you never read the letter from the link I posted earlier.

    87. Croompenstein says:

      But the value of the zone to the club and its supporters is significant

      You know fine well that the ‘the club’ doesn’t own the property of the proposed zone so please Walter try harder

    88. Walter Gallacher says:

      Thepnr – elected councillors were at the meeting to reject the proposal including Stephen Dornan. It’s not clear from the minutes what was said in detail at the meeting (just read them and they are high level) but it’s clear the refusal to support was made generally because of the intended usage of the community asset. As stated the conflict between usage of the asset and Rangers request to use it is minimal (6 hours last year). Now like you I don’t think that is unimportant but it should be a negotiable position. Thanks for the link and I had read Susan Aitken’s letter (this stuff is all over social media) and in her letter (whilst I accept the community council are not politicians) she makes it clear Stephen Dornan who is a local politician and who was at the meeting objected. I go back to the very limited usage of this facility on a Saturday afternoon. Rangers need to make a positive gesture to offer more to the community (and they already do work with local kids) but let’s hope those who object to Rangers are open minded in such discussions if they take place.

    89. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – I think bullying politicians, CEOs and civil servants are psychopaths or narcissists. That’s why I’ve been researching this recently. Also, the concept of “gaslighting” is interesting in view of the constant lying and distortion of reality which goes on.

      Politicians and the media are the “Flying Monkeys”. The puppet masters are the oligarachs which few of us ever see or know about.

      The first time I heard the phrase “conspiracy theory” was Dick Cheney dismissing the idea that 9/11 was an inside job. nThe job of the politician, like the media, is to manage our perception of reality.

      What really upsets them ATM is the internet and our ability to share our perception of reality online. They are desperately trying to find a way to shut this down or discredit us. Probably the most effective way of opposing the forces of repression is to carry on sharing online, turning up at marches, rallies and public meetings, and distributing leaflets.

      And ridicule – #SNPCivilWar

    90. Thepnr says:

      Are you talking of these minutes? They ook clear enough to me and the objections came from local people.

      7. Planning/Licensing Updates

      7.1 Renewal of street traders licence- Hinshelwood Drive
      Hot and cold food and drink, already in place and no objections

      7.2 Application for temporary public licence – Ibrox
      Fanzone 11th August – area where this is proposed was originally part of a local trust and is now owned by Glasgow life. These facilities were given to the Glasgow life by the trust and the council on the condition that they be used for the local community. There was much discussion and objection to this proposed use.
      It was noted that unlike most licensing there was no option for individuals to comment and/or object. Community Council Can object until 9th July, as such a vote was taken by show of hands from residents. Objection was favoured by a very clear majority therefore Kirsty will send objection letter prior to deadline.

      http://ibroxcessnockcc.weebly.com/minutes

      The objections do NOT come from the SNP and clearly come from the local people who live there so why are Tories like Adam Tomkins sticking their ore in?

      “a vote was taken by show of hands from residents. Objection was favoured by a very clear majority”

      Wouldn’t just be another case of SNP BAd would it as the SNP councillor didn’t even vote just the residents!

    91. Capella says:

      Should have added Masonics, the Mafia o the Mediocre. No doubt there are well intentioned individuals who join these secret organisations to “get on” in their career. Robert Burns was a Mason at a time when freeing the mind from the shackles of the Catholic church to progress scientific inquiry was a good thing.

      Now it appears to be a vast secret network of individuals who assist each other in getting contracts and evading justice.
      Anti democratic in other words.

      I’ve got nothing to say about the SFA and Rangers because I know almost nothing about football. But politicians like Murdo Fraser and Adam Tomkins appear to want to stir up sectarian animosity. I wonder why.

    92. Terry says:

      The media, especially the English media,just assume that the SNP are the only Party in Scotland fighting for Scottish independence.

      They don’t realise that the massive YES Movement is the real powerhouse behind the fight for Scotland to free herself from English Rule.

    93. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella –

      Exactly.

      It has little or nothing to do with ‘football’.

      The friend I mentioned in my earlier rant recently became a Freemason and was properly chuffed about it, as was his wife. They brought it up during a lull in post-dinner conversation in the same way that ordinary folk might mention having had a new greenhouse installed. I hadn’t the heart to point out to them that such stuff is supposed to be ‘secret’.

      Stupidity, apparently, is no bar to being accepted into the ‘elite’.

      🙁

    94. Walter Gallacher says:

      Thepnr – those are the minutes. Frankly I’d like to know the reasoning and debate in more detail and what was the role of Stephen Dornan (who is on the list of attendees as you will have noted and who independently objected to Susan Aitken – as stated by Susan Aitken in her letter). When politicians get involved in decisions like this which he clearly has both in his attendance at the council meeting (unless unusually for a politician he is a shrinking violet and said nothing) and his independent overtures to Susan A then I think people who support Rangers and who contribute millions to the local economy deserve to know what actually happened. A clear show of hands may be sufficient in line with the constitution of the community council but it doesn’t sit well when you look at the actual usage of the facility and the benefits that would accrue to a major organisation in the community. This is why I think people are questioning whether there is partisan behaviour at some level of local government. For the record Rangers are an employer and rates payer in that area and deserve transparency. They may have gone about their business more skilfully I agree. If there is any question of bias it has a direct effect on the prospects of the SNP and independence. It could be SNP Bad in many minds but looks more to me like Rangers Bad. Just look at the lead article in this debate and consider the usual anti-Rangers rhetoric from Stu C.

    95. Robert Peffers says:

      @Walter Gallacher says: 1 September, 2018 at 10:30 pm:

      ” … K1 – Data about pitch usage comes from Glasgow Life. Data about Rangers home games is widely available. Reason given for refusal is that it would have a negative effect on kids using the facility to play football which is odd given 6 hours were booked in an entire year but the value of the zone to the club and its supporters is significant.”

      I said it before but seems I must say it again. By your own words above there is a conclusion to be drawn.

      The facility is a public facility provided for a purpose and that is for sport to be used by the Council Tax Payers or their families.

      Rangers FC. Is a commercial company – a PLC in fact and I quote:-

      “Rangers F.C. is a Scottish football club based in Glasgow. They were founded in 1872 and were acquired by an incorporated company, The Rangers Football Club Ltd in 1899. In the year 2000, Sir David Murray decided to float the club on the stock market, subsequently changing the company into a PLC. In 2012, The Rangers Football Club Plc entered liquidation and the company’s assets including Ibrox Stadium, Rangers Training Centre and intellectual property were bought by Sevco Scotland Ltd. Sevco Scotland Ltd later changed its name to The Rangers Football Club Ltd. The Rangers International Football Club Plc was then formed as the holding company by the owners The Rangers Football Club Ltd, with the latter becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of the former.”

      There it is black upon white. Rangers football Club is a Public Limited Company i.e. a commercial enterprise. Yet it has the temerity to presume it has the entitlement to use a facility paid for by the Council Tax Payers and, in Glasgow, these are well known to be amongst the poorest and most deprived areas in Europe.

      It is the sheer long established sense of entitlement of these people that is so breath-taking. You say it yourself above, ” … the value of the zone to the club and its supporters is significant.”

      Indeed it is but they are a Public Limited Company that have well documented history of, among other things, criminally evading tax. As a commercial company they have no right to use a public paid for utility whose purpose is to provide a sports field and facilities to the council taxpayer that pays for the facility.

      Get this right, Walter, your bleating cries of victimhood and your obvious feelings of entitlement died when the Old Labour Party lost control. Neither the SNP or the council tax payers owe you or Rangers FC anything including loyalty for you lost that right when the former club cheated the taxpayer.

      If Rangers FC can afford to spend big bucks to buy players they do not need to sponge of the local residents or use their facilities And that has nothing whatsoever to do with the Christian sectarianism you or that insulting Tompkins are all to ready to invoke as an excuse for Rangers FC and their followers as sectarian victims.

      There are copies of a letter on this website from the council and you really need to read them and be a damned site more humble with your claimed victimhood and outrageous sense of entitlement. No one, least of all the local area residents who pay their council tax, owe you, Tompkins or Rangers FC PLC anything.

    96. Jim says:

      Over the last 25+yrs rangers f.c has essentially been hijacked by the orange movement, and used as a radicilising vehicle for the furtherance of british nationalism. Tragically, the club has played up to this hardcore with the orange strips, flute music, ‘no one likes us’ persecution complex and etc. The wonderful irony being that if you ask yer average ‘fenian-hater’ to partake in a wee thought experiment and choose which must die (rangers or britain) you will find, somewhat incredibly, that the club doesn’t come first after all. No wonder Tomkins, Murdo Fraser and co are in there like flies round a shite.

    97. Thepnr says:

      @Walter Gallacher

      First you said you had read them but they were “high level” as if they weren’t clear when they obviously were very clear in that “Objection was favoured by a very clear majority”

      Now you may not like that decision of the locals but it is their decision so RFC need to deal with the locals and I’ve made that point more than once now but you don’t appear to be listening.

      I don’t really care how many were there or who argued for or against the proposal, I’m certain those that put forward the proposal would have had a representative there to argue their case. What about the board of RFC did they have one there? If not then maybe they should have.

      I think you’re either deliberately or for some other reason that I couldn’t possibly fathom ignoring the main point of my side of this discussion and that is what has any of this got to do with Labour or Tory politicians?

      Tell you something else, I grew up living in Copeland Road, and as a 5 year old at my first ever game I get a lift over the turnstile to a Rangers v Falkirk reserve game where there were 15,000 at the game. Never pay much attention now.

      But this is NOT about football, it’s all politics and is simply nothing more than British Nationalism v Scottish Nationalism. All started by the usual suspects in the Red and Blue Tory parties who love nothing more than to stir up hatred.

      It’s pathetic really and you have now lost me completely as I no longer have any idea what it is your trying to defend or accuse the SNP of. This is not the SNP’s fight it is for RFC to sort out with the people living in the vicinity of their stadium and who have to put up with all kinds of other crap whenever a big game is going on.

      They have every right to object if they want too and the SNP are supporting their right. It’s as simple as that.

    98. Calum Hill says:

      I think it would be worthwhile remembering that there are many Rangers fans who are in favour of independence and each of those individuals are engaged in debate to convince “the softer no voters” into voting yes “next time”. Whilst much of your article is undoubtedly factual and serves purpose to tell a side of the story that is likely not being put across by mainstream media, there are elements of it that are just there to goad at the Rangers support (the bit about 1872 being the number of days of the clubs existence for example.) That sort of petulance, be it true or not, does no good.

    99. Jim says:

      The orange movement has essentially hijacked rfc, and used it as a radicilising vehicle for the sustenance and furtherance of right wing british nationalism. Sadly the club has played up to this hardcore with the orange strips, flute music, persecution complex and adulation of the armed forces. A truly wonderful irony being that if you challenge the average ‘fenian hater’ to choose in a wee thought experiment which must die, rangers or britain, you will find that the club doesn’t really come first after all. No wonder Tomkins, Murdo Fraser and co are in there like flies round a shite.

    100. Terence callachan says:

      Hey you, Walter Gallacher, the locals don’t want it OKAY , that’s the way it is.
      Rangers behaviour doesn’t gain sympathy from impartial persons which you mistake for anti rangers rhetoric.You need to grow up, people will not accept the behaviour you used to get away with in years past, it’s been quiet for several years after rangers went into liquidation, people enjoyed it, they don’t want that old bully boy rude loudmouth intimidatory behaviour in their streets anymore, not from rangers Celtic or any other football supporters.Time has moved on, if you try and resurrect it there will be public outrage.Go to your match cheer your team on and enjoy the game, forget the religious hatred drunken bravado and insulting behaviour, you don’t need it.When tempted think of your mum or your gran or a grandchild perhaps that will divert you.

    101. Thepnr says:

      This is an extraordinary article written for Scotland on Sunday by Dani Garavelli:

      ‘What woman would put herself through this?’

      So seven days on, where are we? In a deeply depressing place, that’s where…

      Given last week’s circus, however, that fleeting optimism feels naive. Seeing the way the allegations have been shunted to one side by a variety of diversionary tactics, you can’t help but wonder: what woman would choose to put herself through all this?…

      Overall, the whole thing is a terrible, damaging mess. One wee chink of light, though, is the way those repulsed by Salmond’s crowdfunder sought to counter the great-man-brought-low narrative with one of their own. As his crowdfunder easily surpassed its target, they championed donations to women’s aid and r*pe crisis centres as an alternative…

      http://archive.fo/O5H5k

      Oh what a downer she appears to be on, the smear doesn’t seem to have taken hold, the SNP Civil War they hoped for has been ridiculed and proven to be a fallacy.

      Yet she still has the cheek to suggest that it was opponents of Alex Salmond’s fundraiser who helped r*pe Crisis reach it’s target after Nicola Sturgeon spoke up in support of it and asked for donations to go their way.

      I think I could guess where the bulk of the money came from and it wasn’t from the Tories who introduced the r*pe clause.

      http://archive.fo/O5H5k

    102. Robert Peffers says:

      @Walter Gallacher says: 2 September, 2018 at 12:15 am:

      ” … Thepnr – those are the minutes. Frankly I’d like to know the reasoning and debate in more detail and what was the role of Stephen Dornan who is on the list of attendees as you will have noted and who independently objected to Susan Aitken – as stated by Susan Aitken in her letter). When politicians get involved in decisions like this which he clearly has

      Sigh! For God’s sake, Walter, get a grip:-


      Title: Councillor Stephen Dornan
      Ward: Govan(5)
      Party: Scottish National Party (SNP)
      Elected From: 04/05/2017
      Elected To: 05/05/2022 “

      Mr Dornan is the ward MSP. Now It is a long time since I used to regularly attend our local Community Council meetings but when I did it was not unusual for the local councillors to be in attendance. Nor was it unusual for the local MSPs to attend.

      In fact before Gordon Brown became a Government Minister but was just the constituency MP he often would be invited and sometimes even just attended These meetings are open to the public.

      You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel – when all is said and done the facility has a declared usage and is provided by the local council to provide a facility for the local council taxpayers. Rangers FC is a Public Limited Company and owns assets. It seems, A.T.M. to have lots of cash to splash around to buy players and engage high profile managers yet it is wanting to take precedence over the local people who pay for the facility in question.

    103. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Yes Stu C “Deliberately misleading” – you know fine well a significant number of home matches are not played on a Saturday”

      I strongly dislike being accused of misleading anyone, deliberately or otherwise, so watch your step.

      The article says “matchdays”, so quite why you’re wanking on about Saturdays specifically is beyond me. I’m well aware that games are often not played on Saturdays and I never said otherwise.

    104. Juan says:

      There’s bias alright but it’s not at GCC, but at the SFA. Collum as the ref and the other two assistant referees will ensure The Rangers have 14 players on the pitch tomorrow as usual.

      On 3rd September 1787 the 6 of the striking Weavers of Calton were shot dead. 3 died instantly, the other 3 were fatally injured. Others were also injured. This began Scotland’s legacy of organised

      At the Calton Gate entrance to Glesga Green, there’s this inscription, ” On the 3 of September 1787 the famous Weavers’ Strike was brutally put down. 6 were killed and others wounded but the strike was to have a permanent legacy as the start of Scotland’s organised labour movement .”
      Their demands were simple, better wages. Because of the East India’s importation of cheaper Indian muslin, traders had cut weavers’ wages and threatened that more cuts would follow. There’d also been an influx of both weavers from the highlands thanks to “the clearances” and from Northern Ireland bringing their Orange Order with them (as well as an influx of Catholics who were mostly labourers). A combination of cheap Indian imports and increased numbers of skilled weavers meant falling incomes, basisc demand and supply. On 30 June 1787, thousands of weavers from the West of Scotland met on Glasgow. Green and agreed not to accept starvation wages, as prices for finished, quality goods were rising. They organised a strike and held out for months. Some, starved into submission took the lower rate. The strikers took their webs and paraded them through the streets.
      They were shot by the “British” Army.
      The UK has never been an equal Union. It was colonisation by stealth and corruption. This is not a Union but a bloody occupation.

      This is from The Herald, commemorating the 200 year anniversary of the killings. It fails to mention that after this let down by the Glesca establishment, the weavers would later be fighting for not only “a fair pay”, but also political representation, a vote for all (only the gentry had a vote at this time) and an independent Scotland. In 1820 they would later be hanged drawn and quartered under an English law of High Treason.
      https://archive.is/n370C

      Or here for another view:
      https://radicalglasgowblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/workers-know-your-history-glasgow.html?m=1

      For the record I’m born in Parkhead and have lived for decades on the southside near Ibrox. I’ve experienced bigotry from both sides and although I’m a football fan I don’t support any team from Glesca, by choice. I cannot stand bigotry or racism.

      A section of Rangers fans aren’t just bigots but openly racist fascists (Union Bears). No wonder the locals don’t want these BritNazi fanatics using their public facilities. A majority of locals aren’t BritNats. They vote SNP to have DEMOCRACY and for their government chosen by us living in Scotland, not our neighbours forced upon us. This is NORMAL not Nationalism.

      Considering your clubs recent record of violence, it’s not surprising they don’t want their facilities used by followers of Rangers. Their hate leaves a lingering stench wherever they go.

      Why not use Ibrox car park or other surrounding grounds? Surely your previous money grabbing, corrupt, boards hadn’t sold off Ibrox car park too?
      It’s not SNP fault your fans aren’t welcome but a failure of decent fans and the club to police the undesirables among your own crowd and the failure of previous club boards.

    105. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 2 September, 2018 at 1:33 am:

      ” … The article says “matchdays”, so quite why you’re wanking on about Saturdays specifically is beyond me.”

      Walter’s whole reasoning throughout the thread is mainly spurious and seems based upon some kind of feelings of entitlement and of Rangers, or perhaps just their supporters. being victimised.

      In the first place the matter has absolutely nothing to do with the SNP banning Rangers supporters. It stems entirely from the objections of the local residents as represented by their Community council. Factually it is the Council Tax of those residents that pays for the disputed facility.

      Rangers FC PLC is a public limited Company and thus pays local Business tax. Local business tax is paid to provide business facilities and Local Council tax to provide Local services to Local residents. Now there might have been a case for a strictly local service for Rangers FC PLC local dwellers in the area in question.

      However, as I understand it, it is used by Rangers FC PLC supporters as a car park area and if they were local areas council tax payers they wouldn’t need to park their cars in that local facility. nor, for example use any local toilet facilities because they live locally

      So basically Rangers FC PLC is hoping to gain financially by providing local facilities for travelling supporters use and thus boosting non-local Rangers FC PLC support and the revenue they bring to Rangers FC PLC.

      The problem now being that the locals do not want the Rangers FC PLC visiting supporters on the facilities the locals pay for but the Rangers FC PLC visiting supporters have a feeling of entitlement but feel that the local ward MSP has no right to even be at the meeting but that representatives of Rangers FC PLC should have been there to negotiate with the locals.

      That’s the locals who Walter thinks had no right to have their elected MSP, who they have voted in to speak for them, has no right to even be there at the meeting and who Walter claims should have nothing to do with anything.

      Now I may be wrong but I see that as Walter, Tompkins and Murdo playing the victims card when the Rangers FC PLC supporters are not the victims and the local residents are being made out as being the perpetrators along with the local ward MSP, the SNP, the Yes Movement and of course there must be at least a hint of all those kafliks, The Pope in Rome, and the of course, those Tims from Celtic must have something to do with it too just ‘cos they always are at the bottom of everything bad that happens to Rangers FC PLC.

    106. Patrick Roden says:

      Just a quick report on the tragic news about the ‘Civil War’ in Dundee:

      A 200 strong armed resistance group, Loyal to Oor Nicola, had gathered in the back streets of Lochee, each and every one of us vowing to lay down our lives if necessary for Nippy Sweety.

      All of a sudden, one member asked what name we should call ourselves, and the reply came “the NS Loyal” this brought a sharp rebuke from some who instead suggested “the Nippy Brigade”

      Tempers began to flare and civil war broke out among the two groups.

      The Newly named “Nicola Fleet” is holding on for dear life, but all looks lost!

    107. Clapper57 says:

      @ Thepnr @ 1.19am

      “Yet she still has the cheek to suggest that it was opponents of Alex Salmond’s fundraiser who helped r*pe Crisis reach it’s target after Nicola Sturgeon spoke up in support of it and asked for donations to go their way”.

      ———————————————————-

      Yes Thepnr, doesn’t she just….come Hell or high water they sure are determined to bring him down….I suspect they have a list of angles they are going to use to drag out this annihilation….mention Nicola Sturgeon….Nah that would not fit the mould this particular writer was constructing which was to further tarnish his reputation and ultimately shift the argument into this being seen solely as a case of abuse against women.

      The suggestion, which is not so subtle, in her mentioning in her article two of the women organisations who deal with and support women against abuse leads the naive reader to formulate, incorrectly, that somehow there is an association with the accusations against Alex Salmond. This has to subtle because to suggest directly would place the writer in a precarious legal position. This is how they operate…but most fair minded people may ask who instigated this action and why this particular action at this time in retaliation to Alex’s crowdfund….seems somewhat contrived.

      Trust me Thepnr , the press make the huge mistake of over complicating and regurgitating news that eventually people switch off or become angered at the constant onslaught of what is , over time, perceived as a somewhat over egging of the pudding so to speak.

      They are doing it with Corbyn and apparently the public are not affected at all by the issue currently deemed as a disaster for the Labour party. Not all people are as stupid as the press and some political parties assume….they know when they are being played…it’s the ongoing onslaught and forensic detail deployed by the media that catches them out…it backfires because the narrative eventually becomes exhausted through over exposure.

      Plus people start to ask what actually happened if anything…they then conclude that none of the facts or detail of the story have actually been investigated or made known yet the media are still speculating and judging on both the account of the story as reported in the press and possible outcome .

      As to the rest of the piece from her article,that you copied in your post, it is clear from what she states, that she, the writer, has decided he is indeed guilty and she tries to orchestrate a sense of injustice in the reader by using very negative and pessimistic connotations as if to precipitate in the reader a sense of outrage.

      Trial by media part ?….and to be continued I am sure.

      It is worth mentioning that I wholly support both organisations as mentioned by this writer for the wonderful and essential work they do and it is such a shame that in this article they , like the alleged ‘victims’ of this story , are being used as pawns by a media which knows no shame to manipulate and control the agenda that they, the media, are determined to set.

      Have a good day….when you wake up !

    108. susan says:

      Personally, thinking of Rangers’ fans’ behaviour en masse, I’d be horrified and frightened to have their “fanzone” in my area.

    109. brobb says:

      For anyone interested in Irish history (and still have a TV license!) Fergal Keane has a good take on this (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00yyc7b/episodes/guide). Many parallels to be drawn to politics today particularly in the latest episode about Parnell and how he was discredited

    110. Ken500 says:

      ‘What woman would put herself through this’. There were cases in the rest of the UK recently where the prosecution withheld evidence from the defence which would have cleared people. Totally false accusations were made, The chief prosecuter had to resign. Sexual accusation.

      These allegations on heresay, flimsy evidence with guarantee anonymity. This is unjust, unfair and illegal.

      Alex Salmond has been in politics for forty years with not a whiff of scandal. He treats women with nothing but respect. Supports and promotes them. He has staff and friends who have been with him for years, He does not suffer fools gladly and at times could get exasperated. It is a hign profile job. These accusation should never have been allowed to be leaked. A total injustice, The rancid Press having a field day,

      It is an insult to women who do suffer violence and abuse, That tittle tattle and heresay on the flimsy of offence are allowed. It is not only men who are outraged about this but women as well. This witch hunt has to stop. The way Mark MacDonald was treated was wrong. It is creating an atmosphere when people who know someone are scared to speak up for them.

      Many wonen make complaint, without anonymity, at tribunal and courts every day. They are proud to and get support in every way. They are believed. They should only be given anonymity if there is a threat of abuse or violence. Not on the strength of unbelievable, heresay evidence, Many people do that for many reasons.

      ‘Period poverty’. Surely people should be campaigning on the rights of women to have enough substanance to get what they want, with dignity and respect, Some people who never delivered a leaflet in the Independence Campaign. Pouncing and posing. Embezzling. Rosie Kane and Carolyn McLechie trying to reinvent themselves. After what was done to Tommy Sheridan who committed no offence.

      The (false?) allegations against Alex Salmond have been handled extremely badly. Extremely badly. It has put a slur on the Independence movement and distracted from the campaign. Being a leader can be stressful and exhausting. There is no harm or disgrace in stepping down. There are plenty of able, willing people available. The SNP has an abundance of talented, educated, able people.

      The witch hunt has to stop. If they really want to help women the corroboration rule should be dropped. In some cases.

      The Catalonia/Spain/Trump/Russia nonsense. Naive and inaccurate. Really missing Alex Salmond in foreign policy. He knows what is going on in the world. A wealth of knowledge. A great Statesman.

      Just hope Alex sues the lot of them. They will rue the day they started in him. Once again someone has to be relatively wealthy, powerful and determined to clear their name of (false) accusations. Especially with legal costs, The boot is on the other foot.

      A homeless, drifter is ensnared by the military services. Gets 30 years. That is a real injustice.

    111. Ken500 says:

      The taxman cometh. £70Million owed. The terraces are empty for good reason. No mugs to fleece. They want Westminster rule but not pay UK taxes. Wanton hypocrites, 2nd rate rejects,

      The UK TV services can’t even show the Tennis, Once a year,

    112. Ken500 says:

      50/50 representation is quite legitimate if it is done in a proper manner, not excluding other women. The members not consulted with ”corporate’ selection. What was that about? The SNP has been run by women for years. Strong able women. They have been office bearers and fundraisers for years. More and more candidates are coming forward and being selected, Times are changing.

      It is no longer like the 1950’s, as some people would believe. One of the problems was less women joined political Parties pro rata. 10 to 1. That is also changing, There are branches where men take their kids along. If they do not have a childminder. Women of course can as well. Wonen are often main carers, That is why nursery provision is so important, To get main carers into work.

      Provision made for total abstinence, ‘one chance’ proper rehab facilities. To fight addiction problems. Not methodone which is more addictive than heroin and causes death. Most drug related death is caused by methodone use and taking other substances. The reason. why some doctors will not prescribe methodone. Rooms will not help. Not in the long term.

      The reason why drug deaths could be increasing is historical. Addicts die by the time they are forty if they do not get appropriate help. Drug services were transferred to local authorities away from healthcare under social care legislation. Some local authorities are not providing proper care. Private facilities are available. People with money can go into recovery. instead of a relatively small amount of money being spent compared to prison and social costs. Doctors do not get training on
      addictive matters, unless they specialise. Give depressants to alcoholics, They can die from abuse,

      Male violence and abuse is just no acceptable any more. It is a gender issue. Most crime is committed by males. Often under the influence of drunk and drugs. Women rarely commit crime. Just to feed their children or in desperation. Internalise with anxiety. Whereas men are more likely to lash out. Unexceptable behaviour. Nature or nurture,

      The Tories/unionists are sanctioning and starving people. Targeting women and children most of all. They are despicable. Attacking the most vulnerable. Thank goodness for the SNP Gov mitigating unionists cuts and standing up for Scotland. Independence is coming soon. To make Scotland a better, more prosperous, equal and fair place.

      Football violence and abuse is well documented, Some just vile and disgusting. Sometimes orchestrated by the management. To the detriment of the organisation. Paedo, bigots and racists involved.

    113. Legerwood says:

      Thepnr says:
      1 September, 2018 at 10:06 pm
      @Walter Gallacher
      Community Councillors are elected. They are not volunteers. They have to complete nomination forms and, if the number of nominations exceeds the number of vacancies then a vote is held. Usually, however, the number of nominations will not exceed the number of vacancies but whichever case applies there is still a formal process to go through and it is overseen by the local council and its legal team.
      In the beginning when an election was required people had to go along to a polling station to vote. Now I think they tend to do it by postal ballot. The Local Council prepares and sends out the voting papers to electors in the CC area.
      Community Councillors must be non-political. There is a model Code of Conduct and model Constitution etc for a all CCs
      Local Councillors are meant to attend the meetings of any Community Councils in their ward. I was a member of my local CC and one of the local councillors never attended. This was duly noted in the minutes each month and did not go unnoticed by the local community. They were not re-elected.
      More details here
      https://beta.gov.scot/publications/community-councils-model-scheme-for-establishment/

      Thepnr says:
      1 September, 2018 at 10:06 pm
      @Walter Gallacher
      Community Councillors are elected. They are not volunteers. They have to complete nomination forms and, if the number of nominations exceeds the number of vacancies then a vote is held. Usually, however, the number of nominations will not exceed the number of vacancies but whichever case applies there is still a formal process to go through and it is overseen by the local council and its legal team.

      In the beginning when an election was required people had to go along to a polling station to vote. Now I think they tend to do it by postal ballot. The Local Council prepares and sends out the voting papers to electors in the CC area.

      Community Councillors must be non-political. There is a model Code of Conduct and model Constitution etc for a all CCs

      Local Councillors are meant to attend the meetings of any Community Councils in their ward. I was a member of my local CC and one of the 4 local councillors for the ward never attended. This was duly noted in the minutes each month and did not go unnoticed by the local community. They were not re-elected when the next Local Council elections were held
      More details here

      https://beta.gov.scot/publications/community-councils-model-scheme-for-establishment/

    114. Fred says:

      Murdo Fraser is from Inverness & what he knows about sectarianism could probably be written on a post-card. A sensible man standing for office would avoid that subject like the plague, it’s a vote-loser as his list performance shows. Murdo Fraser is not that sensible man & the electorate can safely be ignored as he’s not in the business of winning elections just coining it in!

      The bludger was last seen at the opening of the Queensferry Crossing in the queue for free grub.

    115. Ken500 says:

      Tomkins married an American women and changed all perspective. Allied with US politics. Land of hope and glory. Religion. They might get chucked out with Brexit. No visa or rights etc.

      Good people have already been chucked out of Scotland because of Home Office rule changes, The Scottish courts are now protecting migrant/refugees rights. How much is it all costing? One of the Glasgow councillors is one of the Glasgow girls who prevented illegal deportations.

      Why are Scottish unis employing criminals. They support sanctioning and starving people. Black funding. Making money out of other people’s misery. Hedge fund owners and non Dom tax evader Press trying to make money out of Brexit. Illegally manipulating and gerrymandering. Lying and propaganda.

    116. Ken500 says:

      Community Councillors are not always elected. They apply. Must be of the Parish, It can be difficult to keep up the required nos. There has to be a quorum. 8 to 10 people. Or sometimes they can fold. More people should get involved. One meeting (2 hours) every two months is suffice.

    117. Fred says:

      Kevin McKenna, writing for his English readership, joins the Greek Chorus anent “Splits” in the SNP!

    118. Footsoldier says:

      8.40am Sunday and still no one out of bed at BBC Scotland to put Sunday papers on the website, unlike their English counterparts.

    119. stu mac says:

      @K1 says:
      1 September, 2018 at 10:30 pm
      ====================

      Apologies … bit tired when posting last night. I’ve pointed out myself how one can take things the wrong way on text/web sites because you can’t see expressions. And I make same mistake myself.

      However it is true that despite what most of these guys claim their hate hasn’t had anything to do with real religion for a long time.

    120. Hamish100 says:

      Didn’t Tompkins spend many trips to Israel with several tory MSP numpties like Jamie Green on “wine tasting” photo opportunities. No benefit accrued to Palestinians, moderate Israeli’s or the Scottish electorate.https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9421/12000-expenses-tory-msps-brexit-israel-pact
      Has anyone in Scotland seen the benefits?

    121. Clootie says:

      The Empire managed by Whitehall became and remain experts at division.
      In India Sikh, Muslim, Hindi, etc
      In Africa local tribal and religious sections.
      In Ireland They “planted” Protestants.to be their agents which was an effective tool for holding Scotland.
      Whitehall also became expert at leaving a “poison pill” behind post independence. In India they created India and East and West Pakistan. In Africa the list is endless. In Ireland we have the clear evidence resulting from the plantation.

      Rangers, the Orange Order etc are just the latest examples of Whitehall’s malevolent ways. If religious division doesn’t hold Scotland then it will be the poison pill that they will try to exploit later.

      The enemy is not the puppets…it is the puppet master.

    122. K1 says:

      Accepted stu mac, thanks.

      Agree wrt to their hatred…an excuse to act out, more a case of emotional immaturity, insecurity and blind ignorance.

    123. Hamish100 says:

      BBC Radio Scotchland paper review . 2 well kent unionists Margaret Curran (LABOUR REJECT pro frigate stalwart)( and EX BBC Alan Douglas (pro car lobbyist).

      No pro independence individual available in the whole of Scotland or even from Bath, England. Impartial.

    124. Hamish100 says:

      bbc

      Margaret Curran worried about the AS “Alleged” victims.
      Guilty before innocence. Linking Wenstein with Salmond. Really?

      Is the Sunday Mail got no feelings for AS wife? Is she guilty?

      Due process?

      PS To BBC, Curran ,Douglas and their ilk.

      The Independence movement are united. Your frothing venomous attacks has helped. You care not one jot for all the women involved.

      This is bigger than any one individual. Even an ex FM, MP, MSP and SNP member.

    125. manandboy says:

      Kevin McKenna, doubling as a Guardian columnist and, arguably, as a fifth columnist.

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/02/not-just-alex-salmond-name-at-stake-but-future-of-independence

    126. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      That McKenna piece is actually very fair, balanced and reasonable. The headline is unbelievable bollocks.

    127. Wee bud says:

      O/T
      English papers reporting on a possible splitting of the Labour party and a coup being planned by Johnson on May…

      You couldn’t make this shit up.. SNP in turmoil anyone?

    128. Cuilean says:

      Press only expose SNP now.

    129. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Huge number of casualties in the civil war – the Record, the Express, the Mail, the Herald, the Scotsman……..

    130. Thepnr says:

      @manandboy

      It looks like your link has gone dead, here’s another.

      http://archive.fo/32e5F

    131. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell at 9.43

      Exactly

    132. Dorothy Devine says:

      Dave McEwan Hill, now wouldn’t that be lovely

      All I want is a paper somewhere
      Honest and true and totally fair
      With an enormous flair
      For accuracy and integrity

    133. Tinto Chiel says:

      Just catching up. Re Ian B and Capella’s remarks on conspiracy theories: the term was first used in the 50s, I believe, by Allen Dulles, head of the CIA, to close down debate on topics the CIA did not wish investigated. Given his role in conspiring against the governments of Iran, Guatemala and Cuba at the time, this was both deeply ironical and cynical.

      Given the serious threat they pose to the Establishment, the SNP and Yes movement generally will have been well infiltrated by spooks. Margo MacDonald was in do doubt of this and her observation was probably made in the light of personal experience.

      FWIW, none of my family remembers a bar code on the reverse of our Indy ballot paper. Mind you, in my naivety, my heart was pounding as I placed my wee cross on the paper and I felt quite emotional. I thought I would wake up to a new world the next morning, stupid boy.

      Scottish Civil War veteran, Battle of Bonkle, (sausage roll wound).

    134. Thepnr says:

      Just read the McKenna article,looks to me he is writing about the reporting of Alex Salmond in the past week rather than the allegations against him and he finishes on this note:

      “If he remains innocent at the end of this process, he will be welcomed back into the party, as any innocent person would be. And he may yet have a crucial role to play in any second independence referendum.”

      It’s a lot better than most of the reporting in the past week.

    135. Ken500 says:

      No one (with any sense) believes these allegations. Let’s see the evidence. Totally lacking? This will only make the SNP and the Independence movement stronger because of the injustice. It will lead to the further demise of the ‘Press’. No one is buying it.

      It wasn’t Tommy Sheridan who lost it was the ‘Press’. They ended up in the courts and jail. They had to pay £Millions in damages. Still prepared to illegally smear people. They will pay for it. Most in massive debt. They are in the gutter. How can they be so out of touch with public opinion. They have destroyed democracy in the UK/world. Thank goodness for the internet.

    136. Thepnr says:

      The Daily Record/Sunday mail has gone “Full Monty” today on Alex Salmond. I think there will be a backlash against the paper from those who support Independence but still buy it.

      It will be interesting to see how their next sales figures stack up compared to the most recent ones. If I was the owner of the paper then I might be a wee bit worried.

    137. winifred McCartney says:

      Mgt Curran on bbc a disgrace – maybe the ‘process’ needs someone like AS to make it fairer for all-it cannot be fair to have leaks in the process that allow the media and press to smear and demolish anyone’s reputation before any charges are even brought.

      If this was happening to the women concerned there would be an outcry and rightly so – why then does this not apply to the man.

      No use in making it easier for women to come forward if in the process you make men more vulnerable and easy targets.

      As far as Civil War in snp concerned – just nonsense – I am backing NS to the hilt she has not put a foot wrong as expected, I am also backing AS wether guilty or not. This process when the press can print allegations before he is even aware of them is totally wrong. The question should be who leaked to the press and why did the DR decide to print – and where is labour in all this – hiding under their buldging rug everything is swept under.

    138. HandandShrimp says:

      That McKenna piece is actually very fair, balanced and reasonable. The headline is unbelievable bollocks.

      I would agree with that. A very measured piece that actually punctures the argument that there is a civil war. That doesn’t jive with the Guardian agenda (which now has something like 12 articles on the Scotland page) so it gets the tabloid headline. Actually all the newspapers are at tabloid level these days.

      Of the articles posted so far this is undoubtedly the most balanced. It raises concerns that the political axes ground by some of the commentators have prejudiced any outcome and that there is no civil war in the SNP … something that numerous commentators have sounded almost wistfully hopeful for.

      It is the newspapers and opposition politicians that have made this a party political issue. They cannot complain if they target the ordinary membership of the SNP that the membership kick back. They have made the allegations secondary not us.

    139. Jack Murphy says:

      OT.TODAY. IN THE LABOUR PARTY:-

      Shaun Connolly, Press Association Political Correspondent writes:

      “Dame Margaret Hodge accusations of anti-Semitism continue to consume Labour as a senior party figure claimed the leadership has a “hatred of Jews”.

      Dame Margaret Hodge made the damning claim as she launched a fresh all-out attack on Jeremy Corbyn.

      The former minister,told the Sunday Times: “All (the leadership) can think about is their internal Labour party and their hatred of Jews.”

    140. Abulhaq says:

      @thepnr.
      Under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership the SNP has been led in the direction of social liberalism à la Leo Varadkar and independence has had to play a subordinate walk on part compared to Guardian type, virtue signalling feminist and homosexual agendas.
      That would not have happened had Alex Salmond’s influence continued to carry weight.
      I’m no fan of Sturgeon, the disastrous Westminster result of 2017 was her strategic débâcle.
      She has, in the recent years, done the independence cause no favours.
      The SNP needs to get back to basics.

    141. Robert Peffers says:

      @Patrick Roden says: 2 September, 2018 at 2:32 am:

      <." … Just a quick report on the tragic news about the ‘Civil War’ in Dundee:"

      Nicely done, Patrick, your satire raised a much needed smile on a damp, overcast and cloudy morning.

    142. Remember all these newspapers are getting their share of the £100,000,000 State handout, laundered through the BBC,for Local Democracy Reporters pish.

      The British Daily Record parent company Reach Plc (ex Trinity Mirror) will get nearly £40,000,000,

      now that is a `fundraiser`.

    143. England under King Edward l was the first country to expel all the Jewish people/community,

      Edict of Expulsion,https://tinyurl.com/hordgem

      England`s expulsion of the Jewish people lasted over 350 years.

    144. Breeks says:

      I don’t believe Alex Salmond guilty of sexual misconduct any more than I believe Clara Ponsati was guilty of sedition or crimes of violence against the Spanish police.

      There comes a point when “engagement” with your enemy is futile. I feel we have reached that point with the BBC and mainstream media propagandists.

      The latest Guardian article is fair is it? Hmmm, I wonder… Is that their error of judgement our ours?

      When they print filth and hate-speak against us in one breath, then pander to more moderate opinion with the next, we demean ourselves by engagement with the fickle backstabbing wormtongues.

      The BritNat Media is the proverbial scorpion begging to be ferried across the river on our back.

    145. HandandShrimp says:

      Kevin’s piece’s are usually open to comment but cowardice has consumed the Guardian of late. Keen to push its own agenda regarding Corbyn, Salmond, Brexit and other issues but increasingly afraid of its own readership.

      There may be a short window of opportunity for a couple of hundred comments but they often do this without warning. Not so long ago they used say CIF will open shortly. Since the change of editor the Groan has become a much more reactionary beast/poodle.

      Thought Curran was very … Curran on the radio. No real surprise. Collier made a valid point though. Compared to the divisions in Labour and the Tories the SNP conference will look like a Quaker meeting by comparison to the two conferences that will immediately precede it.

    146. Ruby says:

      Breeks says:
      2 September, 2018 at 11:27 am
      I don’t believe Alex Salmond guilty of sexual misconduct

      There comes a point when “engagement” with your enemy is futile. I feel we have reached that point with the BBC and mainstream media propagandists.

      Ruby replies

      Being that I haven’t a clue what is meant by sexual misconduct (other than in the case of rape) I can’t say if I believe Alex Salmond to be guilty or innocent.

      Re the media for the most part I take them as seriously as I do the trolls on The Herald & Scotsman. I agree with you. Don’t feed the trolls! Don’t feed the media!

      However on saying that it is interesting to see what the media trolls are up to and to discuss their antics. Best of all is setting up a comic reaction to their witterings. The civil war thingy is pure dead brilliant.

    147. Shinty says:

      O/T ‘Civil War’ in Dunfermline
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xjrmK5EY-Q

    148. Capella says:

      The Scottish media are surpassing themselves today in foaming at the mouth swivel eyed hyperbole. Stu won’t know where to start to begin. Probably a nice stroll in the sunshine would be best.

      Our local branch is on manoeuvres today. Will be reccying later at the local Co-op before regrouping for a strategy meeting in deepest Abereenshire. Send supplies of flaxseed wraps and hummous. #SNPCivilWar

    149. Ruby says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      All I want is a paper somewhere
      Honest and true and totally fair
      With one enormous flair
      Wouldn’t it be loverly?

      Oh, wouldn’t it be loverly?
      Loverly, loverly, loverly
      Wouldn’t it be loverly?

      Some accuracy would be the key
      Honest and accurate as it could be
      Lots of chocolate for me to eat
      Wouldn’t it be loverly?

      I need help here and I could probably do with a chocolate fix!

      I’m posting away here with no idea if my posts are being uploaded!

    150. Cubby says:

      Walter Gallacher

      “Use paragraphs breaks in long comments”. An instruction from Wings.

      Also more people likely to read your comments if you do so. Not that I am saying I agree with your comments as I have not read them for this reason.

    151. Andy-B says:

      No doubt that other Rangers loving wanker, MF, will be salivating at this moment, or even moist at the thought of his unionist loving fan base celebrating winning today.

    152. jfngw says:

      Are any of us shocked at the recent turn of events, it was clear that they have no arguments that still stand up (they didn’t in the first place but that’s another matter) regarding Scotland’s independence. They were always going to go for the gutter and try to use smear and innuendo, it’s all they have left.

      Will the Scots fall for this, stay in the union because look how we have exposed the sleaze in Scotland agenda, it hasn’t worked for BBC Scotland and its ten year project to oust the SNP. Now exposed the Civil Service actively involved in political campaigning against Scotland in 2014.

      I don’t believe it will because the sleaze at Westminster would put most countries to shame. Remember when they are on TV telling you it is the most honest parliament in the world they are lying through their teeth, it is stacked full of many MP’s who are in it to feather their own nests, serving the public is the least of their interests.

      If you want to distance yourself from sleaze the best way is to choose independence, almost anything would be cleaner than being part of the UK parliamentary system.

    153. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Abulhaq at 11.18

      Yea. That’ll be why the independence vote has remained solid and is now showing plus figures in some polls.

      Was that the disastrous Westminster result that saw the SNP win more seats than all the other parties put together despite being completely unprepared for it and being hit all across the country by literally millions of unionist leaflets in a coordinated distortion against Scottish democracy? The second best SNP result ever.
      “Snap” election my arse.

      The SNP wisely did not fight that election on the independence issue as it was not prepared for that election at all.
      First strike to the unionists indeed. However that advantage they had has now gone.

      By positioning the SNP on current issues in a position where the unionists cannot sustain an attack on us Nicola has shown her astuteness. She has done exactly the same in the current AS issue.

    154. Valerie says:

      oh, ffs

      right on cue, Broon on stage in London to jump on the anti semitism row.

      It’s unbelievable that Labour hate SNP with visceral, unquestioning hatred, when the most damage has been done to their party by their own glory hunters.

    155. Macart says:

      @Capella

      The media have badly misjudged this entire issue and have done themselves no favours in their headlong rush to, as they see it, repay old scores.

      This is not going to end well for them regardless. Their idiocy has placed the public in harms way, again. Highlighted their penchant for trial and jury by media. Exposed their animosity for both the Scottish government and YES movement and of course their own entrenched bias.

      Not entirely sure how this is meant to build bridges with the public over trust in their profession and if they think that it somehow damages people’s desire for different politics, self determination or a new media? They’re in for a rude shock.

    156. Hamish100 says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      re the papers– do you agree the Record and the S Mail are now a lost cause for any fairness towards independence?

      In effect out of ALL the newstands next week we have 1 paper pro independence.

    157. Dorothy Devine says:

      Well done Ruby Sunday!

      Brilliant and indeed that’s what we all want.

    158. Dan Huil says:

      Meanwhile in Ireland:

      https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/0901/990836-brexit/

      So the British nationalist brexit boorach drags on yet what do British nationalist journalists [so-called] in Scotland concentrate their hatred on? A non-existant civil war in the SNP completely dreamt up by these Britnats themselves!

      The britnat media in Scotland deserves to perish by their own dirty hands.

    159. ALANM says:

      There’s no shortage of journalists lining up to express their concern that women will now be afraid to come forward with allegations of harassment. Over at the Observer, Scotland Editor Sev has cleverly raised the states by conflating harassment and rape in his latest diatribe.

      What worries me is that men of principle and ability will now be put off entering politics out of concern that their career, reputation and even their marriage could all be wrecked at a moment’s notice by unproven accusations from anonymous sources.

    160. jfngw says:

      It’s an interesting choice of the UK Government and press to go down the sleaze route when they have such a weak underlying hand on these issues. Do they really think this will play well in Scotland when so many of them, including many at the highest offices of government can be linked to morally obnoxious financing within their own family. They would be foolish to think that we will ignore these facts in any upcoming campaign(s).

      It is clear the press will do their bidding, after all they have shown no interest in serving MP’s under investigation. They only have eyes for one person currently. But the MSM is not the only outlet in these times, they may take the offline BBC & Daily Mail voters but the rest will be better informed.

      To be honest I can’t see how the Salmond case could ever be fairly prosecuted now, the press has turned it into a political case. It has been pitched by them into a case against the SNP rather than an individual.

      But remember how the media works, even although Cliff Richard had no case to answer, the phrase they use is ‘not enough evidence to bring charges’. They like to infer things, even when there is no evidence or a charge is trumped up they will never infer you are innocent, well unless they an agenda regarding someone.

    161. PhilM says:

      An interesting Venn diagram would be two intersecting sets: set A would refer to ‘Republican Socialist’, set B to Constitutional Lawyer, and intersecting set C replete with tumbleweed refers to Adam Tomkins. If there happens to be any other RepSocCon in there with Tomkins, then he gets intersecting set D all to himself, which refers to Never Fully Explained Conversion From Republican Socialist to Supporter of Every Pillar of Creaking Unionist Establishment, which resolves pleasingly to the acronym C.H.A.N.C.E.R.
      I can also now officially reveal for the first time that WATP actually means Will Accept Tax-free Payments. Hiding in plain sight all the time.

    162. Gary45% says:

      Zion-ist, Union-ist?
      You get the g-ist.

    163. Cubby says:

      Why on earth do Independence supporters continue to give their money to the independence hating so called newspapers.

      They will not suddenly decide to support independence. Naive to think they will.

      Just do not buy these disgusting propaganda rags. The contents of which are written by propaganda writers who have absolutely no personal or professional integrity. Disgusting papers staffed by disgusting people.

    164. Liz g says:

      Macart @ 12.20
      They (the Media) have also, in the space of a week spoiled their … don’t mention Scotland and Scottish issues…. agenda.
      A line they have taken for a couple of years now.
      Words like
      Salmond
      Sturgeon
      Independence
      Scottish Government
      Yes campaign
      Have all been mentioned daily, at the top of the news too!
      The accompanying images… also doing the rounds.
      All this, with no damage to the movement and a great deal of ridicule over the civil war headline they ALL reported.
      Ye canny buy that kind of constant publicity…. and all those who had switched off to Scottish politics, have just had a massive reminder that we are all still here..and they are still doing it, potentially even “deliberately….LOL…
      It’s only that real people are being hurt that stops me from thanking them for their special kind of incompetence….

    165. Clapper57 says:

      @ Valerie @ 12.16pm

      Nailed it with that Valerie !

    166. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I think it would be worthwhile remembering that there are many Rangers fans who are in favour of independence and each of those individuals are engaged in debate to convince “the softer no voters” into voting yes “next time”. Whilst much of your article is undoubtedly factual and serves purpose to tell a side of the story that is likely not being put across by mainstream media, there are elements of it that are just there to goad at the Rangers support (the bit about 1872 being the number of days of the clubs existence for example.) That sort of petulance, be it true or not, does no good.”

      Sigh. We’ve been over this a hundred times. If people come to this website because they want to be told the truth, they can’t be picky when that truth is applied to them too.

    167. Maria F says:

      Am I the only one here that thinks the divisions both in the SNP and labour have been artificially generated for the convenience of a tory party that is crumbling under the weight of its own internal divisions, dark money claims, brexit fiasco and breaches of electoral law?

      It is quite evident in the case of the SNP. I believe the Salmond case was designed to create division or at least to have an excuse to claim in every headline that there was internal division in the SNP. As an external observant (I vote for the SNP but I am not a member), I must admit that upon finding out about the harassment claims against Mr Salmond, it did not even cross my mind that Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon would be in different sides with regards to independence. That idea was put in my head by the rag headlines and the unionist comments claiming that the case had created this huge division in the SNP. In some instances, if I remember correctly, it even was suggested that Ms Sturgeon changed the complaints system in order to get rid of Salmond. That to me was a massive red flag that somebody, somewhere was desperate to create division in the SNP. And why would that be?

      I am really sorry, but it is for me very, very hard to believe that a woman that has been subjected to harassment at the work place will wait 5 years to put a complaint, particularly when the individual concerned left the work place years before and as it appears to be the case, one of the accusers is not longer in the workplace either. If I read correctly, there were no claims before January 2018. Well, isn’t that curious? Harassment is not the same as a serious sexual assault, where I do indeed believe that psychological traumas associated with the event, stigma, embarrassment, self-doubt and self denial may play a much, much bigger role. Five years is an awful long time to bring forward a case of harassment at the work place. Sufficient for evidence to disappear (if there was any in the first place), for witnesses to have moved on and for memories to be erased and easily substituted for persuasion due to comments of others. If you are a woman that has suffered harassment and really want something done about it, you don’t wait 5 years, you act immediately. I say this because I have suffered harassment myself in the very distant past and I know how it feels. 5 years after the event I had moved on with my life and frankly it did never cross my mind for even a second to bring the unpleasant memory of the man back to my life then, the thought of seeing myself in a position where I might have had to explain myself to my new partner, friends, family and new work colleagues and of course the people working for the man and his long term work colleagues was for me far more traumatic. As far as I was concerned the event belonged in the past and I had by then developed mechanisms to defend myself by acting quickly and to stop that happening in the future.

      I am afraid that the enormous delay, coinciding with the change of procedure, the leak to the press by the UK civil Service in Scotland, and opposition politicians and Britnat papers tarnishing Mr Salmond’s reputation almost immediately by declaring him guilty before a judge has done so and in particular their complete ignorance to the fact that somebody within the Civil Service had actually breached confidentiality and indirectly political impartiality by leaking confidential information of sensitive nature, completely transformed for me the whole thing in a pantomime that I, personally, cannot give any credibility whatsoever. I am sorry if other people in the forum disagree with my sentiments but I cannot help the way I feel about this. And then there is other thing. There seems to be some blurry “interchangeability” between “harassment” and “sexual abuse” in the British Nationalist press, when we all know that they are very different things. I think it is incredibly dangerous and disrespectful for the victims of real sexual abuse that the concept gets downgraded to the same level as “harassment”.

      Being frank, I am not sure I believe the “divisions” due to antisemitism in Labour either. I am beginning to think they are artificially fabricated as well. A political party does not become “antisemite” overnight. The thought is completely ridiculous. If there is a problem with antisemitism, it has been there all along. So those divisions must have existed all along, they are not new. So why bringing to the surface this now?
      I have another problem with antisemitism. The proportion of Jewish people in the UK is very, very low. Yet, among all races and religions, the press appears to want us to believe that most racism and bigotry is directed against Jewish people. I am sorry but I find that impossible to believe. I am starting to think that antisemitism is being abused as emotional blackmailing for political and geopolitical purposes and that makes me reject the claims. It also makes me angry because this continuous plastering of antisemitism claims in the headlines to tarnish political parties, does nothing, nothing at all to help integration of the Jewish people, if indeed that huge level of antisemitism is real. What this is doing is actually making the jewish people even more of a target as while they are being used as a human weapon for political purposes by unscrupulous individuals, they are being made a soft target for those sympathetic to the parties under attack and that blatantly refute the claims. That is very dangerous, unfair and unjust and rather than reducing racism/bigotry, it actually increases it – could this be the intention?. Again, I apologise if everybody disagrees with my thoughts but I cannot help the way I feel. I guess the overuse of “antisemitism” to discredit politicians has desensitised me to the point of actually questioning the real reasons behind the claim. Labour has always had divisions since Corbyn became a leader. But the truth is that, in my view, those divisions are as the corbynists advance against the blairites, becoming smaller, not bigger. It is not antisemitism what is causing the division, but the ideology of the two factions within labour and brexit. These antisemitism claims may be a smokescreen to cover the divisions that brexit is creating within the labour party, but if you follow the money and who is the biggest beneficiary of Labour being divided, the answer is clear: it is not blairites, it is not corbynites. it is the tories.

      So where exactly am I going with this? Well, very simple. I believe there is only one political party that currently has real internal divisions and that is the Conservatives. Enormous internal divisions that are threatening with destroying the party but also with destroying the UK’s economy. The total incompetence of the handlers of the conservative party to sort out those divisions have now caused huge divisions in England and also between England and Scotland because of brexit and the way it has been handled. And that is to me is where the divisions really lie. The rest is just smokescreen.

      In other words, I am beginning to think that the divisions in labour and SNP have been fabricated by a collusion of dark state hands, the right wing press and the conservative handlers. Follow the money, they say. Who are the biggest beneficiaries of a less functional SNP and less functional labour because they are savaged by internal divisions? The tories.

      I believe those divisions have been artificially created to make the actual divisions in the tory party look less serious and to make the electorate think that internal divisions are a general problem when they are not and frankly, to give a tory party savaged by internal divisions a chance in an incoming GE: divide and conquer they say. Considering that labour and SnP are being attacked simultaneously, this makes me think a GE is very near and the tories, with the help of the right win rags, is already positioning itself to win it.

    168. Liz g says:

      Who ever Stu means @ 12.53
      This site “goads” (if that’s the word you’re going with ) FOOLS.. and just because it’s your kind of fool is neither here nor there.
      You may have your own opinions but you cannot have yer own facts.
      And I don’t know of any society or blog that suffers from too much facts!!
      And that a Fact!!

    169. Ruby says:

      ‘But, that’s Salmond’s plan isn’t it.
      These women’s physical safety, indeed their lives, would be at risk if their names were made public. And forget all this nonsense about reporting restrictions. It take only one nat to find out and that’s it for them.’ comment on Herald

      There is a bit of a theme developing in the posts by the BritNats on The Herald.

      Could this develop into accusers drop charges due to fear for their lives?

      The Herald or whatever it’s called. The newspaper formerly know as the Sunday Herald had a whole newspaper full of articles about how absolutely great the Sunday Herald was. Judging by the comments (max 25) not many were interested in these articles resulting in lack of clicks.

      Solution upload an article entitled ‘Davidson urges Sturgeon to rule out holding second independence referendum’ that will attract at least 200 comments.

    170. George says:

      @Chris Donnie

      Precisely. Masons are Yes voters too, and the last thing we need in Scotland are witch hunts. What happened to inclusivity?

    171. Liz g says:

      Ruby @ 1.37
      Oh Ruby … you just made me put ma tin hat oan!!!
      What if the Women did get outed and got a sheds load of abuse .. or worse..
      The fact that this is even possible to continplate is, I think, enough to dissolve this bloody Union..
      We should be able to elect people that we don’t have to second guess , what they will do next to damage our country..

    172. Clapper57 says:

      @ Maria F says on 2 September, 2018 at 1:05 pm

      “Am I the only one here that thinks the divisions both in the SNP and labour have been artificially generated for the convenience of a tory party that is crumbling under the weight of its own internal divisions, dark money claims, brexit fiasco and breaches of electoral law”?

      ————————————————-

      Nope Maria, think you are probably onto something . Well done you cracking post.

    173. Walter Gallacher says:

      Rev at 12:53. Yes we have been over it a hundred times and 2 law lords, 2 QCs, BDO, HMRC, Duff & Phelps, ECA, UEFA, SFA, SPL/SPFL, ASA, BBC Trust all disagree with you.

      Robert peffers – it’s not a car park and Rangers already rent the facility so the PLC argument is irrelevant. The only request is a fair hearing and conclusion based on data.

      Thepnr – yes I’ve stopped listening to you because you’re just saying the same things. No one is disputing a negotiation is required with Rangers and the CC I have had this view all along. You appear to have not listened.

      As for one or two others pointing out they don’t want Rangers fans in the area you’ve missed the point that they are already in be area on Saturday home games so it would seem sensible to me that the facility earns some benefit because the excuse of it being used for booked football events looks flawed.

      Calum Hill is absolutely spot on. The Rangers demographic is significant and there are a reasonable numbers who are persuadable. END

    174. Ian McCubbin says:

      Aw nice and a copy of this winging its way to tricky Dickie Leonard as we speak. Excuse the pun in last sentence…..nah don’t bother it was fully intended.

    175. Stupidactingsmart says:

      Perhaps the data, whether supportive of Walter Gallagher’s assertions about a lack of conflict between the public usage of the area and potential fanzone, are irrelevant. Perhaps objections came from people aware of that big fanzone in Manchester in 2008. I wouldn’t want that on my public area either.

    176. Liz g says:

      Walter @ 3.34pm
      START…. That the fans are in the area is no in dispute…
      It’s the fact that they should just go home is the point.
      Why do they need a “zone “ to fan.. it’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
      I can see why the people in the area would want them to get gone, they’ve seen their football and if that’s no enough… then tough… struggling tae care.
      Can ye no see the local people are saying that they have suffered them for long enough when there’s a match on?
      That you think there needs to be a “negotiation “ about it??? Is so unbelievably stupit…football is no actually necessary for..well anything really..
      It’s a game, a sport… it happens in a stadium… fan there if ye must… but public spaces are no there tae accomodate anything other than the local people. Real END

    177. GORDON FORREST says:

      Club 1872 does this refer to the combined IQ the supporters? I do believe the membership is 1871 (yeah I know that is one less than
      the total! one of them is a genious compared to the rest



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