The Missing Priorities Round
The election campaign is one day old and already we want to kill everyone.
Alert readers may have spotted a rather conspicuous absence there. (And here.)
That’s some pretty bad news for Lesley Riddoch, and all other sane people.
Although “the SNP must on no account actually campaign for independence!” seems to be a view increasingly widely held in the SNP.
It’s not just the SNP who seem to have lost sight of what their party’s supposed to be for, of course. Here are the Lib Dems announcing that they’re standing aside for a Tory MP, ostensibly in the name of a “Remain alliance”.
So are they doing that in our next-door constituency of North-East Somerset, where Jacob Rees-Mogg is the sitting MP and the Labour Party are the clear challengers and getting closer?
No. No they’re not. In fact, they’re punting out madness like this about the seat.
You may enjoy a closer look at that small print.
Wow. “Vote for us in this seat to get the Tory out – even though we only got EIGHT percent of the vote last time – because our crazily-loaded poll question showed that if the actual challenger didn’t exist and there was literally nobody people could vote for to oppose Rees-Mogg except us, WE’D STILL LOSE.”
Poor old Labour, eh? It must be horrible to be the victim of such underhanded tactics, and we’re sure that Jeremy Corbyn’s kinder, gentler party would never oh right.
(We’re unclear why The Times hasn’t chosen to illustrate that story with a picture of Ian Blackford, btw. Just too obvious?)
Still, we can perhaps put that one down to nasty, embittered old Scottish Labour. We can count on the sainted Jeremy to play with a straight bat, we’re sure.
How much later is “much later”? How many years are “formative”? Is he aware that the Scottish Parliament has ALREADY demanded a second referendum, in a democratic vote? It doesn’t take a lot of decoding to realise that the above is simply the words “now is not the time” rephrased in a slightly woollier way.
And meanwhile:
We note in passing that “ending Brexit chaos” is a carefully-worded phrase which does not necessarily entail stopping Brexit. Dear lord, these times are so upside-down that we find ourselves forced to agree with Kezia Dugdale.
The SNP’s big problem is that Corbyn knows they’re bluffing. The outraged reaction to the suggestion (made by ourselves and others) that the Nats should have done a deal with the Tories to pass the Brexit bill in return for the power to hold a new indyref demonstrates that the SNP live in absolute mortal terror of being accused of helping the Tories in any way.
So if Corbyn refuses to grant a Section 30, the SNP will be put in a position where refusing to support him might let the Tories back into government, and we know that the merest suggestion of that dissolves their spines.
In any event, polling suggests there’s almost no chance of an election result in which the SNP would actually hold the balance of power. Either Labour will do better than predicted and the Lib Dems alone would be enough, or any prospective Labour administration would require the support of both the Lib Dems AND the SNP – in which case the Lib Dems would block any indyref and Corbyn could keep his hands clean.
But we know that neither Labour nor the SNP can trust the Lib Dems an inch anyway. The bizarre campaigning that we’ve detailed above in North-East Somerset isn’t even the weirdest thing Jo Swinson’s party has done to their supposed Remain allies. Last night’s Reporting Scotland revealed that they’re currently putting this leaflet through people’s doors:
We’re genuinely curious to find out the answer to that question. We know the leaflets have been delivered in Edinburgh West, currently held by Christine Jardine with the SNP in second place less than 3000 votes behind the noted imbecile, so voting Tory would be the absolutely last thing the SNP would want anyone to do.
We’ll get back to you on that one when someone sends us the leaflet.
So to recap:
– independence/a referendum isn’t even one of the SNP’s top five priorities at the most crucial juncture for independence in Scottish history.
– the Lib Dems, while demanding a “Remain alliance”, are willing to openly stand aside for Tories but are using the sleaziest tactics of misinformation against other Remain parties (and also Labour), including literally sending Scottish voters leaflets with the words “VOTE CONSERVATIVE” highlighted on them.
– Labour are pretending they’d let Scotland have another referendum, while actually saying they’d rule it out for an untold number of years and make it conditional on a mandate which already exists and which they’ve consistently refused to accept.
Oh, and the Tories? They won’t even admit who their leader is.
This will be the worst and most dishonest general election of our lifetime. Seriously, folks, take the next six weeks off. Your mental health will thank you for it.
FFS!
Will still vote for them – but through increasingly gritted teeth.
My mental health is already on a shakey peg so I’ll take your advice Stu.
Fucking Hell SNP what the hell are you doing?! I don’t often swear online but this just takes the piss it really does.
SNP playing true to form, Grand Old Duke of York syndrome
Yep just shook my head when I saw the various tweets come in about stopping brexit and omitting anything about independence.
It’s a huge turnoff and will be at the polls no doubt.
Why can’t we just a have a ‘vision for an independent Scotland’ instead.
Corbyn doesnt want to talk about brexit but he will promote a vision for Britain. That’s far more attractive.
Yes, take the next six weeks off, apart from encouraging as many people as possible to vote SNP. Then go to the polling stations on December 12th and vote SNP.
Dear Rev
Please stop bringing me back down to Earth
politics is indeed a very dirty game. It is wel! beyond time we started to play by Westminster rules, which in effect means no rules. To hell with ethics and fair play.
We are against a united front who are organising to keep the Indy vote at bay.
If Sturgeon fails to increase the amount of SNP MPs in the most perfect storm we will ever see then she needs to go.
Plain and simple.
I had Libdem stuff in the post yesterday, marked “Scottish Liberal Democrats” but posted from London. Freepost address also in London.
Whatevs. Just vote SNP.
If John Nicholson’s pledges are to be taken as the sum of the SNP’s GE campaign strategy then they are taking the people for mugs.
How are they going to ‘stop Boris’s chaotic Brexit’?
How are they going to ‘fight for Scotland’s place in Europe’?
FFS they were scared of the word ‘independence’ in their 2017 manifesto (the reason I gave up my membership)and if this leaflet is typical of the entire campaign, then the signs are they’re scared of the ‘i’ word in 2019!
People are prepared to hold their nose to vote SNP despite their misgivings but this is like a slap in the face. Where is their conviction to push for independence?
If 2019 is a re-run of the 2017 insipid campaign then don’t blame voters for setting back independence – blame the SNP.
Stronger for Scotland blah blah blah…
Question:
What are the consequences of EVEL if Scottish constituency representative and Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson somehow miraculously does become Prime Minister ?
I’m really not a conspiracy nut in any way, but all this feels very arranged – on all fronts and from all parties.
For the first time since 2008 I’m beginning to doubt that Indy will ever happen. I just feel a sad disappointment about everything.
Hopefully that’ll pass.
This sounds like more of the same ‘Stronger for Scotland’ horseshit.
I honestly thought there was a cunning plan in the works.
There’s a lot less tooth to the party sans Salmond.
A six week break is a good idea to stop myself shouting at the telly!
If those Nicholson leaflets were prepared a while ago
They should have been scrapped.
If they’ve just been prepared
We’re fecked!
[…] Wings Over Scotland The Missing Priorities Round The election campaign is one day old and already we want to kill everyone. Alert […]
Received notice of the next local SNP meeting last night which up to that point I was considering going to and also getting out knocking doors for this GE.
But between what they appear to NOT be campaigning on, the meeting – which should be 100% on fighting this election, has two special ‘trans’ guests attending to no doubt distract everyone from reality.
Back to contemplating cancelling subs and cutting up card again, depressing.
John Gibson 1.47
That point has been raised
Ironically by the SNP mp above who is scared to prioritise independence on his leaflet.
link to twitter.com
“Fight for Scotland’s place in Europe”.
Are you suggesting the guid folk of Perthshire are too dim to work that one out?
Or don’t understand the SNP’s commitment to independence after Ruth and her media pals banging on about it consistently for years?
Now we’re through the looking glass here people… white is black and black is white.
The SNP twitter account sends out tweets referencing independence – put Scotland’s Future in Scotland’s hands. Is it not a bit early in the campaign to be pouring cold water on the message? There is only one way to stop BREXIT and that’s to become independent in Europe, a long standing SNP goal.
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
Also, remember the love affair with with Europe video? This ws retweeted by Elizabeth Lloyd, Nicola Sturgeon’s private Secretary.
link to twitter.com
You know how I write about the prominent ‘liberal’ remainers well here is what one of them, Emma Kennedy, tweeted on 30 October :
“Right.
I’m going to make a promise.
This is an election against the Tories.
I’m going to support Lib Dems, Labour, Green, SNP, Plaid. I commit to not hammering any of them here.
Vote for the party in your constituency that has the best chance of kicking the Tories out”
Fair enough Emma……BUT….one problem…Scotland has ALWAYS by a majority wanted to kick the Tories out…it is England that seems to want to keep them in…..since 2010 in fact.
Also for Scotland…you know that country that voted REMAIN by a majority well we have a separate issue that is not just defined by Brexit…and that separate issue is independence…which for the party you hold allegiance to, the Lib Dems, means that for them, the Lib Dems, in Scotland the defining issue will be the Union and NOT Brexit.
I am sure that at some point soon you will be supportive of the Lib Dems in Scotland Unionist position/priority yourself and will somehow ‘force’ yourself to justify the Lib Dems NOT standing aside for the SNP…indeed you may even find yourself endorsing them colluding with those very same Brexit bad Tories that you so want to see ” Kicked out”, In England…but not so much Scotland eh ?…..in order to “kick out” an SNP MP and replace with a Lib Dem MP……have you heard the news re Ian Blackford’s seat and the tactical Unionist alliance to benefit YOUR political Party of choice ?
So I think it was premature of you to make the above ‘promise’ in your tweet because the Lib Dems in Scotland are already negotiating with the Tory ‘enemy’ that you are so desperate to see “kicked out”…..but like many of your friends in the prominent remainer alliance you care not a jot about Scotland, it’s people or indeed the injustice Scots have had to endure by ‘remaining’ in the UKOK post 2014….because for you the priority is keeping the country YOU want to remain in the EU is it not.
So please note that we in Scotland already have a party who are strongly committed to remaining in the EU and do not need to play YOUR games with YOUR chosen political party to get what we want…..indeed if we play YOUR game then we will be in exactly the same position…if not worse…by changing our vote to a ‘jump on the remain bandwagon party’ which is what the Lib Dems are….oh and they are also an uber unionist party…as are Labour…who you also endorse where you deem them stronger, than your party, in a particular seat… but in…. ENGLAND obvs.
ps. I also note in your tweet that you list for support the parties in the order of your party first i.e. Lib Dems…then Labour (Lol remain really ? ) then Green then the SNP and finally Plaid….First three parties being parties England can vote for…..last two….well says much does not.
One simple question
And Swinson hits verbal diahrrea mode to mask the fact she’s just been skewered.
I don’t think EVEL is going to be of much concern chez swinson.
link to twitter.com
Another Doom and gloom post and people jump right in to the despair. Pathetic. John Nicholson and some guy on twitter called Bob Miller who I have never heard of and therefore the SNP is not for independence. Total crap.
Do you not listen to Sturgeon. Did you not hear what she said at FMQs today. If we never get independence it will be down to people with this type of negative carping. Pathetic glass half empty diddies.
Vote SNP vote YES for independence.
I resigned my membership last week over the gender farce this shows that this isn’t the party that I joined.
2015
Turnout 71.1%
SNP seats 56, votes 1,454,436 50.0%
2017
Turnout 66.4%
SNP seats 35, votes 977,569 36.9%
Turnout was down a bit, possibly due to ‘fatigue’, however the hit the SNP took was considerable. Some 2015 voters stayed at home, others voted for other parties.
So, where are we headed? Closer to 2015 or 2017? Or worse!?
IMO the momentum of 2014, which was reflected in 2015, was significantly set back in 2017. In this short campaign the SNP need to motivate the YES vote to get out and back them.
Doesn’t look like a good start. Nicola’s rhetoric on Saturday and ongoing campaigning with Indy prominent will be critical.
remind us what happened to the Lib Dems when they done a deal with the Tories for power?…….ah yes, thats right. This is why you should stay away from grown up politics, and focus on arresting your declining readership.
I’m not happy with the SNP flyer no independence mentioned, however, we must still vote for them no other party in Scotland is capable (for now) of gaining independence for Scotland.
SNP dancing to the EU’s tune and hoping their support will not notice!
HUD the nose and vote SNP.
@galamcennalath,
2017 was down to complacency – folk thought that the SNP were a Shoe-in. The same seems true today.
Unionists have every reason to get out and vote. Will Pro – Indy folk? The results will be in several hours after the polls close.
Greens are standing in I believe 16 seats – some likely to be marginals.
Wonder how many in this thread will not vote on election day?
Charles 2.22
The ‘deal’ would have been a one-off.
If people voted for independence
Nobody would care that the referendum came about through a deal with the English devil.
And if people didn’t vote for independence
The least of Scotland’s worries would be the deal with the English devil.
It has BBC written on top left corner, I suspect it’s a bullshit question with more propoganda anti SNP anti independence bullshit inside folks!!!!
The all-important inside section of that Nicholson leaflet isn’t revealed, so let’s not rush to judgement on what may be a deliberately-provocative half-story, even if what we do see is rather anodyne and bloodless.
Jo Swinson interviewed by Andrew Neil.( On WOS Twitter)
Jo will do a deal with Plaid but NOT SNP….cause independence.
Obvs I have missed the announcement that Plaid no longer supportive of Welsh independence…..
Plaid apparently part of ‘Unite Remain’…..but the SNP ?
Obviously to watch this interview and believe that there was any credibility in what she said one would need to have just recently disembarked from the ship that docked from a voyage for those who booked an all expenses paid visit to have a partial lobotomy in a sort of clinic…
AND…..where the reasoning and intelligence parts of one’s brain were removed…..via partial lobotomy.
This service was publicised widely as a way to escape the madness of Brexit….partially paid for by politicians such as Jo….so that she and others like her can continue to operate unchallenged in their illogical and unreasonable duplicitous campaigns to ultimately …fool the public….like forever.
Unfortunately for Jo….I chose not to do this so will with good reason and intelligence choose not to find anything she says as either honest or credible…..I am sure that choice will serve me well and if others choose to disregard the spin via Swinson too then they will also be rewarded ……obvs Jo has also underwent partial lobotomy …..in the part that controls speech and vowels within words in particilar….How Now Brown Cow…JA.
Mike Casiidy @ 1.52pm
I agree entirely.
And if those leaflets have just been printed for the GE then the SNP have firmly went into Labour territory of taking their voters for granted.
This GE campaign has to be all about independence and nothing else. They tried for 3 years to make it about Brexit – STOP!
The SNP pledges should be:
Vote for SNP for Scotland to take back control of our nation as an independent country:
– get the government you vote for every time
– keep our taxes spent in Scotland
– take back control of our economic system, employment and welfare
– Take back control of our oil and renewable energy
– Keep our NHS, education, policing and legal system under our control
– Keep control of our water
A vote for SNP is a vote for independence to run our own affairs for the people by the people. Vote SNP to secure independence and join the other 195 independent nations of the world.
There…fixed that for John Nicholson!
That’s worth voting for.
Please get your friends and family to turn out an vote. Their future depend on it. Do not let the Tories and their press pals cause division. They have a sniff and will go with that line. They will also go down the ‘anyone but SNP’ route to corral the Unionist vote.
Oops sorry forgot……
HAPPY ‘DIE IN A DITCH DAY’….EVERYBODY.
31st October ‘Die in a Ditch Day ‘…..public holiday next year…maybe mark it with a coin or something….let’s start a campaign…….or would you RATHER not ?
Scottish voters know what they want.
They want the SNP to keep governing and take us to independence.
….or they want more unionism. If they want to be in the UK they really don’t care who wins the GE either here in Scotland or in rUK. They just want somebody else to be in charge. Anybody will do. 🙁
Maybe in six weeks campaigning some of the rUK electorate will have figured out what they are voting for. I wouldn’t bet a bent penny on that, though.
Who’s that Richard Leonard chap ? Not seen him before.
True but the Tory’s , The Lib Dem’s and Labour all have one thing in common….
Their insistence, on the necessity, to destroy democracy in Scotland.
(I still vividly remember, all of the goings on, in Freedom Square after the vote in 2014 (and so do you) all the noise, the pageantry (akin to the celebration of an actual battle, where democracy very nearly got trampled breathless) and all in the name Late Capitalism, okay, maybe not all).
However, as humiliating, as that was for Scotland (and it was) as humiliations go, it pales into insignificance compared to an Full English Brexit.
Humiliate me once, shame on you….try it again and you can go and take a fukc to yerself.
Vote SNP
As a 81 year old and always voted SNP when I could like the consultant on the Debate Night who always voted Lab now SNP says.”I don’t need someone knocking my door vote SNP”.
It would be a good idea if this person could be asked to repeat it for the SNP in a broadcast.
Nothing true to be seen anywhere although it was interesting to watch the labour party say no to independence for Scotland.
Fine of Ireland, Palestine and anywhere else in the world but not Scotland
It is not as thought they have many seats to lose so one has to wonder why??
SNP may be timid about Indy but we don’t have to be.
Independence HAS to be front, back, left right and centre on the streets and doors.
It’s bigger than any party, individual or clique. It’s an imperative!
Where is the Boris hater of the Scots who doesn’t care what Scotland voted for and
Hater of the Scots a people he would never invest in is about to become your Prime Minister
For the next 5 years.
He is planning to sell the NHS off to the health corporations of America, make retirement age 75
And increase national debt to new levels with election give aways.
Do you want Scotland to be a 3rd class colony with England first at all times and N Ireland second.
Vote for Scotland and a fair and just society for all.
Can we in Scotland not take Guy Fawkes Night which after all has nothing to do with Scotland and rebrand it as Boris Johnson Night.
Kids could go round collecting calling out ‘Penny For The Boris’.
SNP need to put Independence front and centre in this campaign. If they don’t push the cause of Independence then Nicola needs to bow out and we need to change our direction and get a leadership that properly represents our membership.
Now is the time so get your finger out Nicola or your time is over.
Big speech on Saturday, Nicola needs to nail it and push for Scotland regaining its place as an Independent country. If she is not up to the fight then she should step down for someone who will.
We are watching Nicola so gee us up please and don’t disappoint us again.
Scott says:
31 October, 2019 at 3:04 pm
“As a 81 year old and always voted SNP when I could like the consultant on the Debate Night who always voted Lab now SNP says.”I don’t need someone knocking my door vote SNP”.”
“It would be a good idea if this person could be asked to repeat it for the SNP in a broadcast.”
An excellent idea.
Here he is on Twitter :-
(“Brexit is a nightmare.”
This NHS consultant in the audience says Scotland should abandon a post-Brexit UK. #bbcdn link to t.co)
@ Capella at 2.15
The front page headline in The National on Monday – a mere 3 days ago – was “#IndyRef2020 ‘at the heart’ of election campaign”.
All election material (if that’s what John Nicolson’s leaflet is; I think this link to twitter.com is the back of it, and reference is made to “we may soon be going to the polls [my italics], so it’s been published in advance of the decision) should therefore not just mention the subject, but give it prominence.
So no, I don’t think it’s too soon to be critical. They’ve got 6 weeks and a legal cap on spending; no leaflet should be a wasted opportunity.
Im trying to think of a more subtle, less smug, more understanding, gentler, kindlier way to say ‘I told you so, you blind fkng idiots’. Failing to do so however.
Honestly people – its been obvious for years now. Just wait til the totally fkng obvious truth about the EU bites you all hard in the arse also. Geniuses.
Joe the Britnat talking piss again.
gus1940 says:
Maybe, maybe not. I have read often that it was as much an anti Scottish plot and a Catholic/Protestant affair.
Guy Fawles had been a volunteer in the Spanish army fighting in the Netherlands where he had encountered Scots fighting on the other side. He had a deep personal hatred of Scots.
Fawkes’ objections to James VI may have had as much to do with his nationality than his religion, so the theory goes.
James had allegedly offended many in England by appointing fellow Scots into official roles and rewarding them generously. It is suggested that the plot was anti Scottish but after its failure, the very astute James realised he could make more political capital by framing it as a Catholic plot.
A quick google reveals a wealth of conspiratorial information!
Penny for Boris? Where do I contribute?
crazycat @ 15:36:
I do very much agree, but what does it say on the inside?
Anyone know, before we all shoot off on a pointless tangent ourselves…?
This is going to be a fun campaign.
Already the Tories have alluded to dodgy dinners with big pharma. Eva Bolander has resigned – hopefully the next Provost brings their own hair shirt (and a spare to get changed for functions and visiting dignitaries).
The Unionists feel they can say anything they want anywhere about Alex Salmond even if it is legally inadvisable.
And don’t mention Independence as it will scare the voters. What? Where is that coming from? I had an SNP canvasser at the door today offering postal vote sign up. We had a perfectly sensible conversation about Independence and how it must be at the forefront of the campaign this time. So locally the priorities seem different.
I have emailed my SNP candidate already to remind them that for most SNP voters Independence is imperative – so let’s wait and see. If their leaflet is anything like the one above we know it is a strategy decision higher up.
If everybody is talking independence then it’s out of the hands of the SNP. They either choose to catch the rising tide or be drowned by it.
I’d expect there will be a few leaflets which are a bit behind the current situation however with so many more outlets available now for getting the message across it’s not much to worry about.
Had to educate a colleague who was moaning about the SNP wanting out of one political union just to join another.
Soon shut up when I pointed out that in the UK political framework, England has a majority in terms of population and therefore MPs, hence it is generally the case that what England wants, England gets, and to hell with the rest.
In the EU, irrespective of the size of the member state, decisions are based upon unanimity or majority, and that individual member states can also hold a veto. In short, nothing like the political union which is the UK.
Tumbleweed proceeded to blow across the canteen floor, driven by a shrill wind…
CONFUSE AND CONQUER
Already the shit-stirring has been amplified to the ‘imminent Election’ setting, and the waters are being well and truly muddied.
In 6 weeks time, if not long before, the electorate in Scotland will not be able to either see clearly or think clearly.
Facts will be indistinguishable from fiction, while truth and lies will be interchangeable.
The electorate will be virtually defenceless against the propaganda onslaught of the mainstream TV, Radio, Print and Online media, all of which will continue to try to hold back, if not disable, Scottish Independence aspirations.
To all that, add the further complication of the promotion of ‘tactical voting’.
This General Election is looking even now, like it’s going to be a walk in the pitch dark, wearing sunglasses.
I suspect that confusing the electorate is a big part of the Unionist plan.
‘Divide and conquer’, now extended with the addition of ‘Confuse and conquer’.
Stu’s advice to switch off completely until December 12 looks like the clever money and the safe bet.
But you know, we all have a torch to guide us.
That torch is ‘VOTE SNP’.
robertknight says:
Indeed, the two unions bear little in common.
By analogy, one is a loyal assistance dog eager to help, the other is a rabid wolf which will consume you given a chance.
(I do accept Brexiteers perceive which union is which rather differently from myself!)
Joe @ 15:39,
Oh, now that’s convincing. A delusionist returns from another sojourn in the wilderness to spice up the election campaign with another swivel-eyed diversion. Lord Hee Haw will be pleased.
Remind us again, how did Scotland vote in the EURef? Every single local authority area? And how do you win elections?
I’ll say it again, if you still haven’t realised there’s a con going on over Leave, you’re the mark.
And you are the mark. I’m just slightly puzzled as to why you want to advertise it quite so much.
At least we know where we stand, eh?
PS Happy birthday WOS!
😉
We all have our fair share of faults and failings. No one is exempt from that. Including those who lead the SNP Government and Party.
But no fault, mistake or any other error, can change the plain fact that only the SNP holds the key which alone can open the door to Scotland’s Independence.
Sometimes I have found myself locked out of my own house, either because I have lost the door key, or else, more often, forgotten what I’ve done with it.
So, I say again, always remember, that the SNP holds the key to Scotland’s Independence.
@ Manandaboy
Eh no…
The torch is ‘Scottish Independence’. Thats all.
That’s all Scottish independence supporters have to demand. Whether its of Westminster or supposed Scottish Independence parties. Thats the torch.
If a supposed Scottish Independence party doesnt have Scottish Independence obviously firmly 1st place in its priorities then supporters of Scottish independence need to either A: vote for someone else who does or B: not vote for anybody until they or another party take the right course.
Voting for people who dont do what they say they will isnt really helping
@ Robert J Sutherland
You are correct. Scotland did vote to stay in the EU.
You are also correct the Leave campaign and supposed ‘leave’ parties are/were full of shit.
Well done.
That doesn’t change the fact that you, if you think Scotland can be an ‘independent country in the EU’, don’t have a single clue what you are talking about.
“penny for the Boris mate?”. Great idea but then, instead of building bonfires and letting off fireworks… We Bury the effigy in a ditch and plant a few trees in celebration…?
@ crazycat – point taken. I wondered who is responsible for the wording of constituency leaflets. Does the candidate and local branch decide what to put in? I imagine Ochil and South Perthshire are quite douce rural areas hence the emphasis on protecting local producers and EU markets and field workers.
My candidate, Fergus Mutch, has sent a letter to members mentioning independence i.e. “the SNP will give Scotland a choice over our own future. We are winning the case for independence and support for that cause is growing by the day.” No leaflet as yet.
Nicola, in FMQs today, spelt out a very strong message about taking power into our own hands, as she has virtually every time she appears in public. Ian Blackford too. I doubt there is anyone left in the UK who isn’t aware that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence.
However, it may be the the media in England do not relay thse messages, hence the scepticism in Bath.
Is John Nicolson fighting a close run constituency seat where the added mention of independence might tip the balance against him? In hindsight on seeing the flyer I’d rather the SNP took the seat, than lose it by mentioning independence in a contest where mentioning it might scare the horses of that particular constituency.
Also are all the SNP candidates encumbents leafets alike, example will some mention in yes constituencies independence on their flyers, whilst in closely fought constituencies will some flyers not mention independence incase it tips the balance away from SNP candidates encumbents?
In reality we need a strong showing from the SNP come the election, or Johnson and the whole unionist media machine will say only X amount of SNP MPs were returned, and that shows there’s no appetite for Scottish independence.
Boris Johnson has publicly admitted at least the possibility of Indyref2:
“The alternative is for the people of this country to spend the next year, which should be a glorious year, going through the toxic, tedious torpor of two more referendums – on EU membership and Scottish independence – thanks to Jeremy Corbyn’s incessant indecision.”
No other bunch of voters would continually carp on about minutia like what’s printed on some party leaflet .
Honestly it’s hard not making a comment when this kind of guff repeats itself over and over just like the self ID over reaction on here.
Send ID law imposed by EU law is being reviewed by Scottish government , REVIEWED !!
Do people on here not know what that word means ?
And then you get idiots saying they’ve ended their SNP membership because of this or because a leaflet doesn’t mention Scottish independence.
Well WOS listen in, if you or anyone else doesn’t by now know and comprehend that that SNP are fighting for Scottish independence and are the only party that can get it you are dense.
I’m sick of people swearing at me on here for my support of SNP I’m coming back at you.
All those criticising SNP do so without the knowledge possessed by the core of SNP of where this journey is taking us.
Get a grip stop being reactively weak and stupid, grow up , appreciate that politics is much much more complicated than you as outsiders will ever know.
@ RepublicofScotland
Forgive me for finding your post amusing, because in general what you have said has some tactical sense to it.
But what I find amusing is the idea that a Nationalist party might find the idea of it being a wee bit too nationalist on its flyer to be off putting to voters when said nationalist party has shown a determination to throw the rights of women, independence minded and otherwise, under the bus.
BTW, I correctly predicted a couple of articles ago that the SNP would campaign on a platform of stopping Brexit with very little said about independence. It absolutely pains me to be correct about that but unfortunately, it doesn’t surprise me.
And like I said last night, I will be voting SNP and I hope everyone else will to because there is simply no alternative and I think that’s why the SNP are getting away with shite like this. There is no alternative for independence supporters to vote for. It’s the SNP or nothing and THAT’S not democracy.
Will be doing that alright!
I actually do understand what the SNP are thinking, in relation to assuming Indy voters are a given, so catch Remainers.
What they intend to do with a bag full of votes (if they get them) I have absolutely no clue whatsoever. I suspect they’ll cross that bridge if they come to it.
Ever other party is making everything up as they go along, so no surprise the SNP probably are also.
Oh well, suppose I’ll still be voting SNP, they were right about that bit, I hate the thought it’s taken for granted though.
Everybody in the western world knows the SNP is the party of Scottish Independence, nobody in the media press or television doubts that for a second not even all the other politicians of other parties doubt that yet here on this website the seeds of doubt are continuously sewn it seems on an almost daily basis, and the complaint now is that the SNP haven’t put it on a leaflet or haven’t said it enough or haven’t demanded enough
Independence can only happen, and it will, by the people wanting it enough then the party who can deliver it will deliver it
Shouting and complaining into the internet ether about something that’s not happening because you want it to happen amounts to nothing, the people aren’t here they’re out there in the real world where real people are who don’t indulge themselves with the garbage on the Internet, they just don’t care because they don’t believe any of it any more
Sorry folks but the Internet in terms of truth or fact has been pretty much like this website debunked discredited devalued and dumped by very many people now
The fight’s out there not in here, this is just a humorous instagram account now for the girners trolls and mixers with zero affect on anything
I’ll give John Nicolson the benefit of the doubt as we’re still only in the first couple of days of the election run up – but if the SNP are not promoting independence in their campaign within the next few days, I’ll be livid. I for one don’t want to stop Brexit – why on earth interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake – and shooting yourself in the foot over Brexit seems like a pretty daft strategy. I assume the SNP leadership actually wants indy, but if not, could they please make that plain in the next couple of weeks so that we can decide what to do about that?
Time to put Scotland first, not stop our neighbours from doing what they voted to do. It’s an open goal that even Chris Iwalumyo (spelling?) couldn’t miss.
Well have any of you Doom and gloom merchants watched the First Minister of Scotland at FMQS today. Pretty strong statements that independence is at the heart of the SNP in this election. Or is that not allowed in your SNP baaad world.
So is Wings turning into a cult with unthinking followers who with a photo of one side of a leaflet and a tweet from some twit on twitter you all go into a spasm of despair. I’ve said this before and it needs saying again – get a grip. Beginning to think the site owner is ripping the piss out of you.
I can only assume that those who complain that Nicola Sturgeon is scared of mentioning independence have never listened to anything she has said in the last year. Google it. Or listen to her response in FMQs today.
On the one hand, we have the unionists complaining bitterly that she never stops talking about it. On the other we have some on here, independence supporters, complaining that she never mentions it.
When one faction says that it is raining outside and another says it is not, the job of the journalist is to look out of the window and check the facts.
The point about stopping BREXIT is that Scotland voted to stay in Europe. It is the job of the SNP to ensure that Scotland stays in Europe. Now that England has ALMOST (but only through a vote in the HoC approving Boris Johnston’s WAB) committed to BREXIT, the only way to do that is through independence.
Timing is everything.
Besides, she is making a speech at a rally in Glasgow in two days time. If she doesn’t mention independence then I will agree with the moaners on here.
Mist001@4.46pm
BTW No you are incorrect and talking piss again. You are developing a track record on Wings of posting crap. Why?
Thing is and I don’t want to be pedantic but Brexit still hasn’t happened and there is as yet no certainty that it will happen anytime soon, if at all. Brexit first then independence anything else has significant risk attached.
@ Cubby
And what, pray tell, would I be wrong about? As for posting crap, I have a long way to go to catch you.
Joe @ 16:22,
Tell that to the Irish, you moron.
(But prepare to be roundly mocked.)
First of all, that is my picture of J Nicolson’s first flier that I posted on facebook last night after an enthusiastic local SNP branch meeting.
It was with some enthusiasm that I posted it as he has a excellent chance of defeating Luke Graham. We will distribute this, and others, to as many houses as we can with limited resource. Our particular area within O&SP is strongly Tory. Have you ever considered that some leaflets are carefully calibrated to the local situation and sitting MP weaknesses?
I know who promulgated it on twitter with their negative comments, which I guess is where Rev picked it up.
What I feel right now is deflation to replace that enthusiasm as this seat is going to be hard enough to win without this fratricide.
Get a grip Rev.
@ the SNP faithful
I am very happy to be wrong about the SNP. However I have been absolutely correct about the direction of the SNP and the consequences for about 2 – 3 years now.
If they break through on the main issue then I will gladly take a bow and acknowledge that you were correct.
However I reckon im going to be on WOS on the 13th of December laughing at you, at the SNP’s disappointing results and your angry excuses.
@ Comonindy – thx for letting us know. I thought that the leaflet would be aimed at a basically Tory area. Luke Graham should certainly be sent packing and I wish you the best of luck with taking the seat. Pay no attention to the cold water being poured over your efforts here. It’s people on the ground, delivering leaflets and talking to voters, who will make this election a victory for the SNP and so for independence.
It would be good if WoS supported your efforts. I hope it does soon. But keep on keeping on – many of us still commenting support you.
@ Robert J Sutherland
Because Ireland is independent in Europe…is that the point you are making?
Ok, its at this point I could start making stuff up too. But I cant be arsed. Take it easy Bob.
Dr Jim @ 16:52,
Hi Dr.J., good to see you back again.
I don’t agree 100% with you there, though the troll count and the whinging has indeed risen somewhat of late. But a return of your humorous pithy comments will always improve matters, so please do persevere!
We know independence is the SNP’s reason for existing.
But the last GE showed that it cannot be treated as a given.
Independence has to be at the heart of the SNP campaign
And as the First Minister is happy to state that publicly this time
Then SNP voters have every right to expect that Nicolson’s leaflet reflects that.
After all he is standing as an SNP candidate.
Funny that you could not even last a day before commenting on the election you told everyone to ignore just yesterday! The Lib Dem leaflet is totally rational – don’t vote Tory else you will get SNP! Makes total sense – don’t split the unionist vote. Stop being so disingenuous!
“The all-important inside section of that Nicholson leaflet isn’t revealed, so let’s not rush to judgement”
Unless the inside says “fuck what the outside says, independence actually IS one of our top priorities – we were just joking!!!!” then I’m not sure what you’re hoping for.
Joe @ 17:20,
“start”?! You’re stuffed full of diversionary Anglo tabloid bunkum, and that’s nothing new.
Funny that it’s only little-England neo-imperialists who want to leave. Everyone else is doing just fine, thank you, and laughing at the idiots who think they’re going to rule the waves again. (Or more likely, waive the rules. Just for the money-launderers, healthcare predators and food-adulterers, that is, not for ordinary folks. They’re disposable assets, and are going to get screwed. But you already know that, don’t you?)
“Beginning to think the site owner is ripping the piss out of you.”
Y’know what? I’ve had enough of this shite.
Just to note that the latest email I got from the SNP (today) as an SNP member, had independence front and centre. It says, right at the start of the email:
At this election, Scotland’s future is on the line.
This one really matters. People are heartily sick of Brexit. And they’re fed up of Westminster too.
A vote for the SNP is a vote to escape Brexit and Westminster chaos. And a vote for the SNP will demand Scotland’s right to choose its own future.
and it then says:
As an independent country in Europe, decisions can be taken by the people who live here – not by Tory governments we didn’t vote for.
Scotland is one of the world’s wealthiest countries. We’ll be able invest in things like the NHS, lifting kids out of poverty and a fair deal for pensioners – not on nuclear weapons and a hard Brexit. And we’ll be at the top table in Europe in our own right.
Not sure why the flyer in the post didn’t mention independence as a priority. Maybe it was a geographic thing or a focus group thing which showed that the five things listed were the priority for the area the flyer was distributed in. But independence is certainly at the front of the SNP campaign as far as I can see.
I posted my 5.28 before comonindy’s post appeared on my screen.
That seat went from Labour to SNP to Conservative
And the swing to conservative occurred when independence wasn’t central to the campaign.
Just saying.
From the First Minister (email):
—–
At this election, Scotland’s future is on the line.
This one really matters. People are heartily sick of Brexit. And they’re fed up of Westminster too.
Donate now A vote for the SNP is a vote to escape Brexit and Westminster chaos. And a vote for the SNP will demand Scotland’s right to choose its own future.
As an independent country in Europe, decisions can be taken by the people who live here – not by Tory governments we didn’t vote for.
Scotland is one of the world’s wealthiest countries. We’ll be able invest in things like the NHS, lifting kids out of poverty and a fair deal for pensioners – not on nuclear weapons and a hard Brexit. And we’ll be at the top table in Europe in our own right.
Unlike other major parties, we’re people powered. And we need your help to make it happen. Chip in now to help us reach every corner of Scotland.
—-
Not much left to the imagination there.
… and you’d thought you’d have f’all to do!!!
Courtesy of Wings twitter.
The bit of the leaflet that proudly bangs on about independence.
Just kidding!
The “We may soon be going to the polls” bit reveals the ‘too soon’ nature of the leaflet.
link to twitter.com
Happy Birthday WOS
you are officially the same age as Joe’s IQ
Cubby – if that was you on your way out – can’t help but think maybe you deserved it.
Go take a chill pill and get yourself some objectivity;
then apologise.
Republicofscotland says:
31 October, 2019 at 4:31 pm
“Is John Nicolson fighting a close run constituency seat where the added mention of independence might tip the balance against him?”
The Ochil & South Perthsire Constituency contains areas that were high NO vote (i.e. 60 to 70%) in #IndyRef2014 – those exact same high NO vote areas were also high REMAIN (i.e. 60 to 70%) in the #EURef.
@ Robert J Sutherland
‘Rule the waves’ ‘waive the rules’
That was pretty good Robert. Got a chuckle there.:D
Joe @ 18:11,
(I can’t in all honesty claim originality of that one, though. Alas.)
The Unionist parties have spent the last 5 years repeating, ad nauseum, the word ‘independence’in a sly but effective way to bully people into not wanting to hear the word ever again. Nobody with their feet on terrestrial ground will be needing reminding of the fact that the SNP’s main goal is independence.
Each of John’s bullet points address the main concerns of the constituency he is campaigning in,through Yes/No demographics, and all of them require independence to bring into reality.
Perhaps its a ‘join the dots’ approach.
Having said that I fear many people will be duped by LibDem trickery.
Scotland
If we don’t get independence.
link to youtube.com
Rev. Stuart Campbell @ 17:34,
You could be right – I fear you could well be right – but the backside could just be the hors d’oeuvres, so to speak. So why not let’s see, we can decide for ourselves and judge accordingly…?
And all the other signs – thankfully – are that the SNP as a whole is taking an entirely different tack anyway. We’ll see. Saturday should provide more than a hint, no…?
Normski @5.59pm.
Thank you for that.
So maybe it’s better not to mention independence in that particular constituency if you want to win that seat.
STV news has a super special report on Glasgow’s SNP Provost resigning.
It seems that she has spent £8,000 of the appointed £12,000 that all provosts
are entitled to in supporting they are well dressed and presented when representing our city.
It appears that all previous Labour provost had used the full allowance but using only part of it
Is a crime only in the corrupt UK Media.
I wish half of the Media time used here was given to Liberal liar Carmichael watched as £1,000,000
Was wasted on an enquiry that established he was guilty of lying about the First Minister in French Gate.
I see Bojo’s American bimbo who got on board all the international trade exhibitions, without meeting
Any of the criteria has been found not guilty of taking £100,000 of Boris’ freebies by Boris’ corrupt Civil Servants?
Many things are Rotten in the state of Boris Park
John Nicolson only needs YOUR SCOTLAND FIRST CANDIDATE or YOUR PROUD INDEPENDENCE CANDIDATE. Something along these lines above his picture in bold type would work.
SNP candidates ALL of them need to be proud to advocate Scottish Independence ? If they are not, are the fighting for the right cause, the right party for the right reasons ?
SNP have an opportunity to gain our Independence, if they miss this open goal then our Independence and their reign in Scotland will be over come 2021.
Nicola, big speech needed on Saturday a really big, big speech. No messing Scottish Independence front and centre, nothing else will do.
Jesus, I came home this afternoon after walking the dogs and my husband tells me he phoned the SNP and renewed his membership, we had both cancelled due to the GR farce, he said he felt we should give them all the support we can with this election coming up and asked did I want the number to phone and rejoin, I said not yet I will wait and see where they are heading during the election, this leaflet has annoyed me no end but I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt at least until Sat, what I hate more than anything is the fact that they know they have us by the balls so to speak, we have to vote for them if we want Independence as at present they are the only route to gaining that but it really galls that they also know this, I will vote for them obviously but I’ll be gritting my teeth all the way, should it be the case that they win more seats and still they make no positive move towards Independence then the only hope we have is that next year brings on board another party to rival them and one which won’t lose sight of the reason they were elected, now I’m going to try and take your advice and get on with my life until the election comes as I’m not sure my mental health can cope with much more, as for some of the comments on here it really does bring home the saying, Wha’s like us.
Turned on radio Scotland today a good while since I listened to it, after ten minutes of listening I wondered if I had the wrong station sounded like a south of England channel is this part of the big plan to change the Scots thinking process, with the transition from fossil fuels to everything electric, Scotland will be producing vast amounts of power which it will be selling to England and Europe, England won’t want to loss this potentially massive opportunity, they got the oil we can’t let them get our power, they’ll put up some fight we have to do the same.
Many posters hitting the nail on the head. The indy movement is more important than any party. We lend our votes to them to accomp!ish one main goal.
We will see what Saturday brings.
Nobody is bigger than independence.
Effijy @6.38pm.
Yes STV news is no better than Reporting Scotland when it comes to stringing out SNPBAD stories.
I recall Gordon Matheson a Labour Lord Provost of Glasgow spending thousands of pounds on a new design for Glasgows George Sq.
However when his own design was not chosen as the winning entry he went into a hissyfit and scrapped the £1.5 million project.
Both Matheson and his predessessor Purcell both Glasgow Labour Lord Provosts were caught up in scandals far grater than Eva Bolanders expensive wardrobe failure, and if I recall correctly both stayed in office.
The anti-SNP feeling in the Scottish media (The National aside) is prolific, it’s packed with “Proud Scots”.
`Queensferry Crossing was named the UK’s top infrastructure project at the recent RICS (Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors) Awards, Grand Final. Huge congrats to the talented team and professionals behind it.`
well done Nicola and the SNP.
O/T Something sinister is going on. Ian Blackford’s twitter account “doesn’t exist” when searched for. Neither does his Facebook. I emailed IB to enquire the reason and have had no reply – this is unusual in itself.
Meanwhile The National reports the Tories and Labour [who got 25% and 12% in the 2017 election] are going to leave the fight in IB’s constituency to the LibDem.
@sarah
I think once they are no longer MPs – ie during the election- they cannot use MP in their name hence many delete their Twitter and start a campaign twitter. He should have them overlapping though as it looks better to be on the ball.
Having said that I didn’t think Parliament had been dissolved yet!
I absolutely agree that this will be a profoundly unpleasant election and probably the most dishonest since the era of gotten boroughs.
The Lib Dems in particular seem to be compulsive liars even opting to do so when telling the truth looks by far the saner option. I think Jardine and Biscuit-Barrel are two of the worst offenders on this front…setting new bench marks on political dishonesty.
I feel a bit sorry for Carlaw. He is way out of his depth. No wonder he is hiding behind Ruth. Wonder if Johnson will use pictures of May…. 🙂
As for Corbyn’s “once in a generation”…I actually punched the air and yelled Yes when I saw that. Perhaps the penny will drop with any remaining Labour voters the next time someone parrots the bilge about once in a generation referendums.
@SilverDarling: I did wonder if it was something to do with the election but Joanna Cherry’s twitter is still going.
But I hope you are right. I just can’t help wondering.
Republicofscotland says:
31 October, 2019 at 6:36 pm
“So maybe it’s better not to mention independence in that particular constituency if you want to win that seat.”
Today while delivering some of those very leaflets – a NO voter’s door opened and he came tearing after me “…you lot are going to cause a civil war…”.
Now if a mild mannered leaflet like that can set one of them off…
The good news is though, we bonded a little – we are both Rangers supporters you see.
He went away saying, “well I will read your leaflet son…don’t agree with you, but I will read your leaflet”.
Much as I respect the Rev – there are times when he seriously needs to get a grip of himself.
Let’s put it this way, if you go fishing – do you bait the hook with a piece of chocolate cake because that’s what you like to eat?
No, you bait the hook with a fly or a worm.
The thought of eating those things might be revolting to you – the fish loves them though.
Even the Rev has his blind spots.
Effijy @ 18:38,
I fear we’re having another bout of Michelle Thomson, etc. In the current heavily-polarised climate, the SNP would prefer to promptly sacrifice a head than offer even the merest of handles to the (far more tainted but utterly hypocritical) opposition and their vile media proxies. Not least during an election. For all the credit it gains.
Staringly obvious conclusion: GCC should change their rules to reduce the Provost’s Dress Allowance to a level that is judged both commensurate with the duties required yet also affordable for a very tight public purse. Then “fair deal all round”, and everybody should shut the f* up when any provost sticks to them, even up to the limit.
‘Sakes – that’s what rules are for, not just to (rightly) constrain officeholders but also to protect them.
Look. It doesn’t matter what the leaflets say or don’t say. It doesn’t matter what Sturgeon or anyone else says, it’s a pretty clear cut choice. You either vote for SNP OR you get a Tory government.
That’s all there is to it.
To be fair the SNP mailshot from Nicola Sturgeon I received today was unequivocal in its language for Independence. John Nicolson’s constituency in Ochill is a Tory marginal and I can understand how playing the pro EU hand and not mentioning the war can attract the soft Tory vote, so it might work. Trouble is if you don’t lead on Independence, educate and nudge the public towards it, you can’t expect them to suddenly vote for it at a referendum. I can’t for the life of me see a Labour majority but it’s not impossible that Corbyn could lead with Lib Dem/ SNP support and legislate for a Peoples Vote. I’m sure Nicola would be tempted to join a ” progressive alliance ” and would adore the attention from the Guardian but if a Remain vote won the day then Independence would be put out into the long grass. That said we’d stay in the EU which would be a good result. Difficult circumstances, whichever way you turn, and Nicola has never really been tested.
@Sarah
Look’s like his new twitter is up now, so maybe just a timing glitch.
link to twitter.com
I reluctantly voted SNP in 2017.
Reluctant because of the lacklustre campaign and the underwhelming local candidate but, at the end of the day, my Westminster vote is not going anywhere else.
Anyway, Labour got in.
Because not every independence supporter is as conscientious as me. The SNP turnout in my constituency dropped in 2017 due to the SNP not campaigning on their core principle.
I was under the impression that lesson had been learned. Maybe not in Ochil & South Perth.
Way to get the vote out folks.
Because at all times, that shining vision of the sheer *possibilities* that open up with the Scots quietly getting on with their own affairs must remain front and centre of all SNP communication. Otherwise what is the point?
Because if the main message is to stop Brexit, the Lib Dems (at least on a temporary, mercenary basis) own that message more than the SNP do.
I’ve no interest in your putative party Stu.
But if the SNP won’t mention the ‘i’ word, who will?
Anyway, it’s only day one of the campaign. Let’s see where we are in a week.
@SilverDarling,
`If the bill receives Royal Assent, the Leader of the House of Commons has said Parliament will be dissolved at 00:01 on 6 November 2019.
When Parliament is dissolved, every seat in the House of Commons becomes vacant.
This means there are no longer any MPs.
Those who were MPs before dissolution cease to represent their constituents and lose access to parliamentary facilities and resources.
They no longer refer to themselves as Members of Parliament.
The Government does not resign when Parliament is dissolved.
Government ministers remain in charge of their departments.
Ministers keep their ministerial titles after dissolution,
but MPs can no longer use MP in their name.`
I really don’t understand who decides if there should be another referendum. Enlighten me please
@ Jock tamson – Nicola has never really been tested.
Where were you in 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017? Mars?
@Scot Finlayson
Thanks – it looks like Ian Blackford was just a bit quick off the mark.
Yes, the parties are either scared of losing votes (Tory and Labour) or trying to maximise their moment of opportunity (LibDems)
Labour and Tory parties are split down the middle on how they feel about Brexit so even a landslide would still see UK little further forward on that front.
Add to that in England & Wales Brexit Party and LibDems potentially taking votes they wouldn’t normally get in heavily Leave & Remain seats respectively. The amount the take could allow one of the big two in the back door.
Whatever happens in the end we are running out of democratic routes to independence. I hear the next idea is legal action when the next ‘government of the day’ refuses SNP’s s30 request.
There’s no point me watching any of this or paying attention to it as i have made up my mind who I’m voting for but it’s like rubber-necking at a car accident, you don’t want to – but it’s hard to look away..
Rev,
You seem to be doing a grand job of undermining the S.N.P.——– Why?.
So the SNP are baaaaaad, what news, it really beggars belief the garbage talk I see on here re all things SNP.
Yes they are really shit at some stuff, many things I disagree with, they have been in power for 12’years in Scotland , what the fuck do you think the state of this country would currently be in if Labour, Cons or Lib Dema had been in charge ???! If you are too shallow and immature to see the bigger picture fuck of to Northern Ireland, England or Wales and suck it up.
Where would you rather live right know, if it’s Scotland stop bitching about the small stuff and vote to make your country free.
Dont post very often but really WTF.
“Vote to make your country free”. Well yes, were trying to, but there seems to be a problem getting the chance to put an x in a box.
I want indy first and last. I have lived under many governments of many hues and still survived. I have paid taxes till I bled. I voted SNP since 2007 for one reason only.
Independence.
The SNP are in charge that’s true, but only 58% in charge and that being the case makes them Grrreat!
The Tories are 100% in charge of England and 42% in charge of Scotland which makes them really really garbage and nasty with it
Andrew Gordon 8.31pm , I myself have been guilty of Baadd mouthing the SNP at times on here , bbbbuuuuttt I have to agree with you , I have also posted on a few occasions examples of the shite liebour Scottish governments policies we have had to endure , their FAILURES ARE LEGENDARY, bribes , corruption , sexual misdemeanours, bullying , harassment , PFI and too many more to mention .
So let’s all calm down , let’s see what Nicola has to say on Saturday , let’s show the ruk and the world how much WE want our independence , let’s have another MAHOOSIVE turnout on Saturday and PROVE without a doubt that there definately is a demand for INDEPENDENCE in SCOTLAND
@SilverDarling and Scott – thanks. It is being in the Highlands at Hallowe’en – makes me feart!
Bob and Jim
And you’re point is ????
Like all advertising campaigns – and that’s what this is after all – different messages will be targetted at different groups. If one idea sells well to this particular group emphasise your support for it, if another of your ideas looks like gathering support from another group, emphasise that message when you talk to them.
It’s basic stuff. You don’t win over teenagers by talking about geriatric care and pension funds, you get them by talking about the environment, university funding, and job creation. You win over wrinklies like me by talking about geriatric care and the like.
I just got a ‘Scotland needs you’ email from the SNP.
“…a vote for the SNP will demand Scotland’s right to choose its own future…”
“…As an independent country… ”
“…we’ll be at the top table in Europe in our own right…”
I’m an SNP member. That message of INDEPENDENCE was targetted (accurately) at me. It’s what I want the SNP to do.
Other people are fed up with Indy talk – they’re wrong – but we still need their fucking votes! So if we want to get them to vote for the SNP what’s the harm in underplaying the very thing that will put them off doing just that in leaflets that are aimed at them?
.
Thought provoking article Stu. You cut straight to the point. Thank you for that work.
CMonindy may have a logic in that Indy-sanitized leaflet, referencing local sensibilities. But this is torture.
Like watching many Scotland football games. The team, like the Scottish Government with repeated, renewed mandates to go for IndyRef2 turn out to be HEROIC FAILURES.
I am sick of the IndyRef2 failure.
The tipping point was Ian Blackford failing to secure an irrevocable Section 30 Order when we had our hands on the levers of power at Westminster with Boris’ nuts in the political vice.
In the general election of June 2001, I didn’t leave Labour, (New) Labour left me.
I have voted SNP ever since. Local, Regional, National and European elections.
But I fear the SNP is leaving me and many new supporters behind.
The lack of “Independence’ as a priority at Westminster with Ian Blackford preferring to SAVE ENGLAND FROM BREXIT, rather that secure his prime objective of INDYREF2 FOR SCOTLAND is causing a real dilemma for myself + family + friends. All of whom I bought a WoS Wee Blue Book and then a Wee Black Book for presents. Most of whom moved across to voting SNP, but are now struggling to see a reason to vote SNP after Ian Blackford has condemned Scotland to 5 more years of Tory rule and the turbo charged austerity and welfare reform deaths that Tory Universal Credit eat all., will make far worse.
The subject matter and screenshot references at the top of this page prove a disturbing fact… the SNP are in real danger of voters like me just not turning up to vote. I will NOT vote for any other party (other than a Wings one).
But my heart just ain’t in going the 10 minute walk to vote for Mike Weir again. Our dreadfully Tory MP, Kirsten Hair is actually doing more to get me voting SNP!!!
FFS, I, we, all of us should be voting FOR something we believe in. NOT voting just to keep some other political lobby fodder eejit out.
Is it too much to ask that the SNP put IndyRef2 in the TOP 10 on the election leaflets?
————-
By far the best post and the most disturbing one on this thread is from Galamcennalath….
galamcennalath says:
31 October, 2019 at 2:20 pm
2015. Turnout 71.1%
SNP seats 56, votes 1,454,436 50.0%
2017. Turnout 66.4%
SNP seats 35, votes 977,569 36.9%
Turnout was down a bit, possibly due to ‘fatigue’, however the hit the SNP took was considerable. Some 2015 voters stayed at home, others voted for other parties.
So, where are we headed? Closer to 2015 or 2017? Or worse!?
IMO the momentum of 2014, which was reflected in 2015, was significantly set back in 2017. In this short campaign the SNP need to motivate the YES vote to get out and back them.
Doesn’t look like a good start. Nicola’s rhetoric on Saturday and ongoing campaigning with Indy prominent will be critical.
If visitors to Wings web site spend so much energy bitching about things they can’t control and put their energy into getting the message across that Scotland should and will be an independent country it would go some way to achieving that end.
Stuart’s post are his opinion, it’s his site and with the odd exception (IMO) he is spot on with his analysis, let’s just put our energies into the end game, Scotland as an independent nation and stop being a nation of pedants !
@Andrew Gordon,
My point is Im a captive whether I like it or not. I will vote SNP because there is nothing else at present to offer an alternative.h
They are a great domestic government that is true, but I have survived bad ones as well.
Capella says:
31 October, 2019 at 8:21 pm
@ Jock tamson – Nicola has never really been tested.
Where were you in 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017? Mars?
Eh knocking the doors for voter ID and pounding the streets with leaflets although in 2017 took a backward step. Sorry how dare I commit the cardinal sin: one cannot speak ill of Nicola however veiled. Just think she might see Scotland like it’s metropolitan London and through the prism of a Guardian editorial. However I do rate her highly, she’s very good on camera and communicates very well, in a way people can understand. But it’s one thing hoovering up the votes from the diddy Scottish labour party yet another securing a referendum from the big guns in Westminster. Equally sparring with the lightweight opposition in Holyrood hardly ups your game. Actually, I’d like to see her leading at Westminster as I feel she coasts it at Holyrood and would relish a bigger challenge. Bit like a transfer from the SPL to EPL. That’s all I’m saying.
Good on yeh, bob Mack.
Hi Bob
Yes that is true but I refer to my previous posts.
I cannot wait for the moment I hear on the BBC that Scotland “has voted to return to being an independent nation “ can you imagine them having to utter those words?
I’m only 53 and it would grieve me to my marrow if we missed this oppertunity not just for me but all the young Scots that will come after me, that is the goal, the end game ABSOLUTELY nothing else matters.
My late elder brother was a rocket scientist. He came back from his first trip to Cape Canaveral with the saying: “When you’re up to your ass in alligators, it is difficult to remember, you are supposed to be draining the swamp.@
Well, the SNP are up to their erses in alligators: the blue, red and yellow Tories, the pro-Unionist media and the less-than-helpful Greens.
Now, more than ever, they should remember: they are supposed to be draining the swamp which Scottish politics has become – by getting us to the firmer ground of being an Independent nation if not actually a member, then, closely-aligned to the EU.
By all means, shoot the alligators, but, remember – INDEPENDENCE is the goal.
Around 50 or more Scottish MPs, and if they can get over 50% of the popular vote, and Independence will be inevitable sooner rather than later. Go for it.
Thanks to the London media the SNP always has an uphill struggle at Westminster elections. The BBC promoting the Lib Dems who have half the number of MPs compared to the third largest group in HoC.
Tonight’s BBC QT has Isobel Oakshott on again but no snp rep which is outrageous now that an election has been called.
To the question: “In the event of a hung Parliament with an increased SNP vote, should England withdraw from the United Kingdom to complete Brexit?
Here is a small sample poll from 250 eligible voters in west Lancashire.
Nationality and Brexit Voters Total.
English Remain ER: 88
English Leave EL: 117
Scottish Leave SL: 12
Scottish Remain SR: 33
ER EL SL SR
Yes: 53 112 4 2
No: 35 5 8 31
That’s 165 out of 205 English voters who’s be happy to ditch the UK to complete Brexit compared to 6 from 45 of ex-pat Scots. Go figure..
Ahh, Auchterarder and Crieff, those infamous hotbeds of radical socialism!
They’re the perfect places to go in with big Indy guns a blazin and tell them you’re going to turn their quaint quiet world upside down…
The independence movement has one great asset. Us.
We are the guys who talk to people and convince them to think about Indy.
The SNP cannot truly sell that message as they may wish, due possibly to lack of air time ,and column inches in the newspapers.
Then it falls to us on these threads and at peoples doors or wherever you find yourself in company.
We are the the ones who make Independence. The SNP only facilitate the mechanism of choice.
They play their part by running Scotland well ,into the bargain.p
Lack of media results in lack of ability to motivate. That is where we come in. We need to fulfil! that role better than anyone has ever done before. Marches,protests, gatherings of al! descriptiions.
@ Dan
Radical Socialism? Is that what Indy’s all about?
If it is, then that’ll end my support.
I think we might need a Wings party or equivalent not to win list votes but to put a warning shot over the SNP’s bow that they need to start taking Independence forward.
It would have parallels with how UKIP and the Brexit party forced the Tories to a EU referendum. The only missing component is a non-SNP pro-indepdence leader to coral around.
If only Margo MacDonald was still with us.
@Mist001
Quick off the mark there Mist.
No, Indy Scotland will be what Scots choose it to be.
However you should be well aware that our glorious MSM will spin Indy in a bad light to protect the status quo.
An ever so astute person like you should know that.
@Dan,
I remember the SNP had over 26,000 votes in Ochil! and SP, unti! the media did a hatchet job on Tasmina. Last SNP vote 19,000.
It is winnable
FFS. So maybe Sotland needs another independence party to actually fight for independence in the same way that the Brexit Party and UKIP are pushing the Tories into Brexit.
An outside force making the party who is dithering on Indy actually fight for it.
At least I know I get to vote against Christine Jardine.
@ Dan
I don’t care how the MSM spin anything and neither should anyone else. Who gives a toss what they say, simply vote SNP, because what’s the alternative? Vote for any of the others?
@Bob Mack
Aye, iirc there were endless attempts to tarnish the reputations of the 56 SNP MPs after the 2015 GE tsunami riding on the post 2014 indyref wave.
Rural Perthshire is very small c conservative.
I’ve eluded on here in the past that the modern day clearances are still in effect to the extent where most young folk leave as there is no way they can afford to compete in the home buying stakes against incomers.
Disappointing also that Community Councils are failing due to constant turnover of people meaning it is very difficult to get and maintain engagement.
@Mist001
Well you might not care, but as an activist you HAVE to care and consider how the MSM will spin it because they broadcast 24/7 and have tremendous power to influence the people behind the doors you knock on or speak to.
Easy sitting behind a keyboard pontificating, it’s a very different story in the real world outside one’s comfort bubble.
The relationship between Scotland and England, is defined by Scotland’s wish for an equal partnership, and England’s historical desire to be the Boss.
Problem is that England is eleven times bigger than Scotland by population, and that England, by definition, doesn’t do equality with its ‘colonies’ – or with any other country for that matter.
Ultimately, the issue for Scotland is, how to deal with the playground bully.
I think in certain constituencies crafting a certain message, on certain flyers, to certain voters who we know are less predisposed to Independence is clever electoral politics – the national message from the leadership is loud and clear, #Indyref2020 front and centre.
Skwakbox has posted a link to the OFCOM rules for broadcasters reporting election. Might be handy reference for the next 6 weeks.
link to ofcom.org.uk
The prompt was the visit of Boris Johnston to Addenbrookes hospital today. He had to flee to a chorus of boos from staff and patients. the media failed to report that. They broadcast a clip of Johnston in a white coat looking very doctorly. Try to imagine an equivalent SNP treatment.
link to twitter.com
@Capella
I thought it was strange when I saw him strutting in the hospital corridors glad handing doctors & staff on the TV news.
Toe curling stuff as it was obvious that the poor victims were too surprised to rebuff the baffoon.
Thanks for telling me that what actually happened was he was called out, as all Tory politicians should be when using the ENHS as a crutch to support their insidious health policies. 🙂
Capella
Just look at the btl from his own twitter link about the hospital visit
link to twitter.com
A very necessary read, get your skates on its indy or DEATH!
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
QT absolutely dier. Brexiteer louts on show again with Oakeshott stirring it up with her poisonous right wing rhetoric. BBC are beyond the pale.
Turned off BBC QT after approx 20 minutes probably less just seemed that long…no actually seemed longer…..I really should have turned it off immediately when I saw the panel…Isabel Oakeshott for Brexit party…Tory twat..Labour twat ..Lib Dem whiner and Mairead McGuiness.
Blah Blah Shite Blah F**%%*% Blah….then more Blah Blah Shite Blah F**%%*% Blah then guess what….just after first 10 minutes up to maybe 20 minutes….when my ears started to bleed and my brain was on the verge of melting into submission at watching pulp on TV…..well oh my God was there not even more Blah Blah Shite F**%%*% Blah……..
So I said to my husband ….are you gonna watch this Blah Blah Shite F**%%*& Blah or gonna let me watch a real programme…Family Guy ?
Fortunately for me…and our marriage…he concurred that it was Blah Blah Shite F**%%*% Blah….so I could watch Family Guy…at last some culture….this is one of…but not the only..reasons we have stayed married for over 30 years…
I feel though that Peter Griffen could…perhaps…maybe…have fitted in with the Birmingham audience tonight…AND that he is Isabel’s kinda person that would vote for her boyfriend’s shite party….Brian though would be SNP….Stewie would be a Tory…Meg would be a Lib Dem and Lois would be Labour…see I am still suffering from Post Traumatic Question Time stress disorder…Thanks Birmingham…..
The audience, mostly, were F**%%*% abysmal ….with odd one or two exceptions…but most were one step away from starring in a new Birmingham version of ‘Deliverance’….making up their OWN lines…..
I am starting to question if there is different species within the human race….cause I do not think I am the same species as some peeps in this audience…..I mean it I really do….never ever understand working class people voting for Tories…especially under Etonian Boris Johnson….nope…nothing…nada…no clue why…..there is aspiration then there is delusion and some peeps, especially in tonight’s audience, fall into the latter category most definitely….they delude themselves into thinking Boris and the Tories could offer them anything worthwhile to aspire to…other than knowing their place and being eternally tricked into believing the Tories and Brexit are the solution to ALL of their troubles…….well I have news for them on this …Blah Blah Shite F**%%*% Blah .
Scotland Moving Forward with Paul Kavanagh, Lesley Riddoch, Keith Brown, Lorna Slater, Colin Fox. Held in Edinburgh on Wednesday night. Filmed by Independence Live in two parts. What are the SNP saying about IndyRef? See Keith Brown here… link to livestream.com
link to livestream.com
@ Me @ 12.05am
It’s Peter Griffin not Peter Griffen….Blah Blah Shite F**%%*% Blah.
Hey guys
just to say…if you live in the proximity of Byres Rd?Glasgow………bla b;a bla
Actually met a LibDem and Tory who are considering voting OTHERWISE.
Now shut the fuck up Stuart.
THIS POST from CmonIndy:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
fits with what I was going to comment – tailored leaflets.
This needs to be a very complicated and careful campaign, balancing Brexit with Independence. Both are needed to maximise the SNP vote, and us Indy supporters are just going to have to put up with it if we think the balance is wrong.
It should be the very last time we have to do this before Indy Ref 2 in 2020.
BUT – no harm in criticising the hell out of any SNP candidiate if they chicken out of the SNP’s number 1 constitutional aim – Independence.
Incidentally, I did think of a good message for placards and even banners for Saturday’s Rally, something like this:
“If you don’t call Indy Ref 2 in 2020 – I will”.
I believe in a politics where you tell people what you believe in and ask them to vote for you.
This “targeted messaging” really means spouting whatever THEY believe in, in the hope that they vote for you.
It is precisely the great Groucho line of “These are my principles. If you don’t like ’em, I’ve got others”.
We should campaign for Independence. If people don’t want it, let them vote against it. The alternative is to be elected with no mandate for Independence. What is the point of that, except for holding office for personal gain?
Interesting article
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
“EU families feel more welcome in Scotland than they do in the rest of the UK”
Continues
“Our research shows that despite the uncertainty of Brexit EU families feel more welcome and safer in Scotland than south of the border. The letter sent by the Scottish Government to registered EU residents after the vote, and in particular Nicola Sturgeon’s words of reassurance towards EU citizens living in Scotland just after the result of the referendum, have left a positive and lasting mark on our interviewees.”
Dan – All he needed to do was make bullet point one “Independence for Scotland within the EU” and leave it at that. It’s a hardly a secret. Locals might find it strange to see no mention of it. It could annoy the Yes supporter and equally annoy the soft Nos and those persuadable. They might think he is taking them for fools. Far better to be up front about it and if they still don’t want you, so be it.
I’m chilled out re Nicolson’s flyer.
Everybody is gonna know that voting SNP is voting for indyref2 – when the manifesto is published I expect it will be explicitly stated.
John just has to remind local voters that we have other policies too. They won’t learn that from the telly.
49% won`t get us Independence,
we need to convince soft NO voters (the NO vote that is not British Nationalist),
Independence in itself was not enough last time,
so you have to bring them to the light with other arguments and reasons,
this leaflet is not for patriots or Brit Nats it is for the soft NO,
doncha get it ,jeezo.
Scott,
“Independence in itself was not enough last time”.
But the entire 2017 campaign was fought on a very strict “don’t mention Independence” line by the SNP. Nicola’s entire schtick was “It’s not me that’s mentioning Independence it’s the Tories that keep bringing it up”. The 500,000 voters who deserted the SNP in 2017 still wanted Independence. 40% of Labour voters support Independence.
And you don’t convert “soft noes” by never taking about Independence.
Listen to Nicola answering the first question on FMQs yesterday. There is no question that she is putting independence at the front of this campaign. Let’s stick to the facts, they are always friendly.
link to scottishparliament.tv
I’m not sure at all about this.
I always thought that my party was for Scottish Independence. Removing all reference in leaflets suggests that what we have now is “ The Party” But maybe I am wrong.
Maybe this is a good strategy if it secures more than fifty percent of the vote and nearly all of the Scottish seats. Westminster couldn’t ignore that…..or could they.
We could certainly move from there – even if the leaflets didn’t mention independence. The desire for independence has not gone away from members, folks know what the SNP are for. So yes my blood boils for independence but not all of the voters agree as 2014 showed us.
Tactics I think and tactics that wind in the clarion battlecry of the over the hill and at them brigade.
Let’s get the biggest vote possible along with the most seats possible and then take it from there.
I don’t think we should read too much into one leaflet. The leadership already are mentioning Independence much more often than they did in 2017. I hope a decision has been taken to go for it now and this will be a better campaign. What Nicola says on Saturday will be a major indication.
Analogy.
I used to have a dog that on seeing a cat used to flare up howling as it charged towards the cat who almost inevitably took the forewarning as notice to get out the way.
A second dog some many years later used to slink along when it was trying to capture a bird or a cat. It had been a hunting dog prior to being repurposed.
The concept of not frightening the natives is a real one ………..well I think so, and I think that is what is happening here Rev Stu.
Craig Murray says:
1 November, 2019 at 1:37 am
“….It is precisely the great Groucho line of “These are my principles. If you don’t like ’em, I’ve got others”.
We should campaign for Independence. If people don’t want it, let them vote against it. The alternative is to be elected with no mandate for Independence. What is the point of that, except for holding office for personal gain?…”
Voting for Independence according to the SNP’s enigmatic “Trust me, Trust me”, strategy bears certain uncomfortable hallmarks similar to a Trust me, Trust me Brexit Manifesto bereft of any plan beyond referendum day, just vote!!!
Brexit won, but it’s hardly a ringing endorsement of the strategy, and you probably could project the paralysis and chaotic indecision of Brexit after the vote, onto a Scotland voting for Indy where Indy meant different things to different people… like Brexit.
As a “Constitutional Fundamentalist”, I have little affinity for a political party which strode on past a golden Constitutional opportunity to sink the Union as if the opportunity didn’t exist, (as if in fact, the Constitution didn’t exist), but then demands fealty from all, and backing for it’s own enigmatic strategy, gaping holes and all, which doesn’t address the various constitutional questions I’ve been asking for month after month.
I’m not talking about a 500 page white paper. A single A4 sheet declaring faith in the outright ascendency of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty would suffice, provided it demanded International Recognition to compliment Westminster’s Recognition for the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the Scottish People. It doesn’t seem a big thing to ask…
Perhaps on Saturday, we’ll maybe see the fabled genius of Nicola Sturgeon finally revealing itself and surprising us all with a cohesive strategy the whole YES movement can put it’s faith in.
For me, the watchwords to look out for are Sovereignty, Constitution, and unlawful UK Colonialism. If those themes appear in Nicola’s speech, then maybe we have a chance. If it’s more cold soup drivel Theresa May style, more bland pish and anaemic, incremental waffle, then I fear Brexit, and a bitterly cold Arctic December lies ahead for Scotland.
I want to believe, but I also fear vitality, if it was there, would have shown itself a long time ago.
To Saturday then…..
THE SNP IS BECOME DEVOLUTION’S CATAMITE.
WE SORELY NEED AN AUTHENTIC, FEARLESS INDEPENDENCE PARTY.
THE ‘MODERATES’ ARE KILLING WHAT’S LEFT OF THE SCOTTISH SPRING.
THE SNP HAD 56 WESTMINSTER SEATS & 50% OF THE VOTE IN 2015.
A RESULT THAT PLAINLY MADE MANY QUAKE WITH FEAR.
ENOUGH, NO MORE OF THIS PATHETIC MODERATION!
SCOTLAND’S PSYCHOLOGICAL MOMENT’ HAS ARRIVED.
IT’S STILL SHITE EVEN IF YOU SHOUT IT
Harry mcaye says: at 7:42 am
“All he needed to do was make bullet point one “Independence for Scotland within the EU” and leave it at that.”
Ahh, and by doing so he’d piss off all the SNP voters that are for leaving the EU.
See this herding cats game…
link to youtube.com
Is today the day Boris starts bog snorkelling without a snorkel?
WHAT DID HE SAY? I COULDN’T HEAR FOR THE NOISE.
I’m fairly sure that whatever Nicola says tomorrow will be mentioned in the press and if, as seems likely, very independence focussed then it will appear on election leaflets…every election from every party, especially the Tories in Ochil 🙂
John may be taking a softly softly approach but the SNP position will be pretty clear to everyone by the 12th Dec. I’m more worried by the bare faced untruths of the Lib Dems, something that may perplex the other parties too.
I see you’re still peddling your claim that the SNP could’ve made an arrangement with Bojo to support his deal in exchange for a section 30 order. There is no way Bojo would’ve agreed to it as he sees himself and his ilk as being above the SNP and the Scots. For the SNP to even have approached him would’ve been incredibly damaging to the them as the MSM would’ve been all over that, like flies over shit, to paint the biggest ‘SNP Baaaaad’ story we’ve ever seen.
There’s a lot I do agree with you on regarding the SNP, Stu; they’ve certainly dropped the ball regarding Indy and I don’t believe it’s their job to stop Brexit. I also agree that the right to hold a referendum should lie with Holyrood, no permission should be required from a Westminster government Scotland didn’t vote for so, this should’ve been challenged in court long ago. However, I think you know full well Bojo wouldn’t have agreed to what you were proposing.
Worth repeating from Andrew Gordon yesterday- I think I managed to convert a couple at the pensioners club last week. Will keep going.
If visitors to Wings web site spend so much energy bitching about things they can’t control and put their energy into getting the message across that Scotland should and will be an independent country it would go some way to achieving that end.
Stuart’s post are his opinion, it’s his site and with the odd exception (IMO) he is spot on with his analysis, let’s just put our energies into the end game, Scotland as an independent nation and stop being a nation of pedants !
I voted SNP first when I knew that it didn’t have to mean independence. Today I’d vote for a hard border, but the first important step was being willing to countenance voting SNP. They’re playing a long game and choosing to build momentum long term rather than going all out for a short-term referendum which could result in a catastrophic loss – that really would be the end of Indy in my lifetime. It’s not possible to say whether that will be the best choice, but it’s certainly defensible.
I think we can all relax. Just got the press release of what Nicola said this morning in Leith:
Scotland is scunnered by Brexit but if Boris Johnson gets his way this will only be the beginning.
“Trade talks with the EU haven’t even started and hard-line Tory demands mean they could collapse next year bringing a no deal Brexit back on to the table.
“The stakes could not be higher – Scotland’s future is on the line.
“This is Scotland’s chance to escape the Brexit chaos by voting SNP and putting Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands.
“A vote for the SNP is a vote for Scotland’s right to choose our own future – instead of having Boris Johnson decide it for us.
“At this election we’ll be setting out how we can build a better Scotland as an independent European country, free from Brexit and Tory governments we don’t vote for.”
Could hardly be better. Let’s all rally together now and work for the SNP to win all the seats in Scotland.
Carpe Jugulum!
Seize the throat, Terry Pratchet Disc world.
No Pudsey footing about, no mealy mouthed lacklustre campaign. This is it folks, it will be hard, rough, dirty and there is no way the Unionists will roll over. Every vote counts and whatever your feelings (and I have reservations) it HAS to be SNP for this GE.
Any differences we can sort out after Independence.
CAN GE19 PRODUCE A SAFE RESULT FREE FROM FOREIGN INFLUENCE?
(theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/31/boris-johnson-accused-report-russia-dominic-grieve?)
PM Johnson accused of withholding key report on Russia from voters
Fears that report into security threat posed by Russia may not be published before election
“Downing Street has been accused of sitting on an explosive parliamentary report on the security threat posed by Russia to the UK, which examined allegations that Kremlin-sponsored activity distorted the result of the 2016 EU referendum.
The cross-party intelligence and security committee said it had expected Boris Johnson to approve publication of the 50-page dossier by Thursday – and there was now a risk its publication would be prevented before the general election.
Dominic Grieve, who chairs the committee, complained in the Commons that no explanation for the “apparent delay” had been given by Downing Street, which had been sent a final draft of the report on 17 October.”
It seems to me Cmonindy and Capella are speaking good sense in the contributions above. Particular attention should be paid to what Cmonindy at 5.15 pm yesterday. What he says there sheds considerable light on the issue raised by Rev. Stu in the Wings article, and sets us right about the background to candidate John Nicolson’s flyer.
As others have noted at various points in the thread, such flyers are composed locally. They are formulated in view of a carefully worked out perception of what matters most to the greatest number of voters in that particular constituency. This is a local flyer for a local campaign, NOT a national flyer to be put out across the whole of Scotland. It has not got space to say everything. Instead, it very wisely highlights those aspects of SNP policy which are the most likely to attract the undecided voter in that particular area.
Failure to do that would be suicide, even downright stupid. And, worse than that, a direct insult to the people of the place concerned. It is common sense that in each constituency, the campaign has to be LOCAL as well as national. The candidate is not just standing for a nationally organised political organisation called the SNP; he is very specifically standing to represent the people of his constituency. The SNP is simply endorsing his candidacy, saying he is their candidate too. But the people he is standing for, and whom he hopes and intends to represent, are the actual people of his area.
Constituency MPs represent their constituents first and foremost, and not just their Party. That is a basic democratic principle. It is prior to their Party membership, and comes before it. They are elected to represent the people of that area, and they had better not forget it.
Even if they are elected, their primary concern still has to be the needs and priorities of the people their area. They have to make every effort to ensure that the majority voice of these people – the people they represent – is heard within the Party organisation. So that what the generality of people in their area want continues, as far as possible, to come through into their Party’s policies. If they fail to do that, they will lose their seat at the next election, and deservedly so.
True, they represent their Party to the people of their area, but that is by no means the whole story. Besides this, and in fact even more fundamentally, their job is to represent their people to their Party, and to its leadership in particular. In principle, their first loyalty is to the people who elect them, and whom they then represent. Their second loyalty is to the Party to which they belong, and whose endorsement helped them to be elected.
The hope is that, while there might be some tensions, no enormous conflict will arise between these two loyalties. When such a conflict does arise, however, an MP’s first loyalty should be towards those he represents. Too often, in British politics generally but also in Scotland, the cart is put before the horse. MPs (and even constituency MSPs) put their Party before their people.
Or, rather, they think of themselves (often in career terms) first of all as being elected for their Party, rather than for their people. This is what turns so many people off politics altogether. They feel that whoever they vote for, if elected, will simply be using them for their own or their Party’s ends, without even attempting to hear their real concerns, needs and hopes.
Nobody likes to be treated as a means towards an end – especially when that end is simply someone else’s self-serving, careerist enhancement and advantage. Politics attracts far too many of these ego-maniac self-seekers, concerned only for themselves.
To me, one of the more fascinating things about Brexit has been to watch some MPs, across the board, speaking from real conviction and sometimes seeking to represent more genuinely the expressed wish of their constituents. On the one hand, the breakdown of strongly whipped Party discipline among MPs across the spectrum has looked like an outbreak of chaos to some – and chaotic aspects of the matter cannot be denied – but on the other hand, it has sometimes shown MPs (of different persuasions, even vis-a-vis Brexit) genuinely trying to put their constituents first.
This could be considered a real plus of something that is too easy to portray negatively. The over-whipped Party system is one of the things that has actually operated to stifle genuine representation of the people in what purports to be (but actually isn’t) a democracy. So people get turned off and don’t vote – no matter the outcome of any election, they are convinced they won’t be represented – and the politicians are quite happy to let that continue since full participation of everyone would actually be a threat to them, and they don’t really want it.
A Catch 22 situation then emerges, and keeps going for ever. Governing Parties can carry on pretending they have their authority from a ‘majority’, which they don’t actually have. They know very well they don’t in fact represent a real majority of the people, but the system allows them to carry on acting as if they do. And as they govern, they do so without most of the people, and can carry on ignoring them – or most of them – with impunity.
The UK thus became an essentially ‘non-participatory democracy’. The job of politicians is simply to manipulate enough of the electorate (i.e. a big enough minority of the electorate) to get themselves a seat every so often, whenever there is a vote. And then forget about them (or at least the majority of them) until the next vote. They will pay attention to their own ‘minority’ that supports and elects them when these voting times arrive, and even in between them, but most of the time they will ignore most (i.e. the majority) of the people, even within their own constituencies.
In Nicola Sturgeon’s favour, by the way, you could say that she has generally not done this in regard to Brexit. You could argue that she has tried to uphold, at least as nearly as she could, what every constituency in Scotland voted for in the EU referendum. Her real aim – as I think will become increasingly evident, even in the course of this election campaign – is to keep Scotland in the EU.
However, accepting that Scotland is not in fact an independent country, the only way to keep Scotland in the EU would have been to keep the whole of the UK in Europe. She also accepted, nevertheless, that that was not going to happen, since the whole of the UK had voted to Leave the EU. So she then went instead for the next best thing, trying to ensure that the UK’s Brexit would be as soft a Brexit as possible.
I criticised her for that – and still do (since it contradicted the clearly stated will of the Scottish people) – but I can at least understand why she did it. She could argue, in response to me and others like me, that she was only accepting the inevitable. The fact was, she would say, that while Scotland remains part of the UK (and the Scottish people had voted in that direction in 2014), the best she could do was to try to get the best possible deal with the EU, understood as the one that would be best for Scotland.
She was therefore acting in the interests of the whole of Scotland, within the limitations of what was and is still Scotland’s actual situation – namely, Scotland is currently a component part of the UK. There was no way of getting away from that reality while the Brexit negotiations were ongoing. Now that they are concluded, she will rightly say, we know it is going to be Boris Johnson’s Brexit … or … Or what?
I think her argument here will be ‘or independence’. More specifically, the option of independence, by means of a properly constituted, and fully constitutional referendum.
She will argue that all the alternatives that will be brought up by other major opposition Parties (Labour and LibDems) during the election campaign are simply not going to happen. These other Parties can talk all they like about 2nd referenda and Re-negotiations with the EU but, in practice, that’s all fantasy.
In reality, none of these things will happen. The only way the LibDems could get a second EU referendum through would be if they win a majority in Westminster, and they haven’t the faintest chance of that. And the Labour Party can dream all they want about still doing Brexit while getting a better deal from the EU, but the EU won’t give them a better deal. Johnson’s deal actually suits the EU better than May’s deal did, and they want it. They are not going to backtrack just to please Jeremy Corbyn.
The SNP, she will say, is now Scotland’s only hope. She will have no difficulty showing how bad the Boris deal will be for all of us, especially in Scotland. And she can show it right across the range of policies – with a big emphasis on the NHS, food standards and the food industry. Even for farming, I think it can be argued Scotland will be better off in the EU (whether as member state or in a Norway style arrangement) than the UK. Maybe even for fisheries … Anyway, for most things, for sure.
She might asked what would you do in a hung parliament where Labour and the LibDems got together to re-negotiate with the EU, then hold a second referendum between ‘remain’ and whatever new deal might emerge. I think she would have no difficulty pouring scorn on that suggestion.
‘Of course’, she might say, ‘we would always support remain, since that is what the Scottish people already voted for and would still vote for – but the scenario you paint is simply not going to happen. The Lib Dems go into coalitions with the Tories, not Labour – don’t you remember? Haven’t you seen Jo Swinson’s voting record? Let me remind you …. etc. etc.’
Concluding with: ‘Your fantasy scenario is just a fantasy: in Scotland, this is election a choice between a very bad Boris Brexit being imposed upon Scotland, or Scots being able to avoid that by Scotland becoming an independent country in Europe. Such an outcome, however, will not be imposed on the people of Scotland. It will be their choice, and no one else’s. A vote for the SNP will open up that possibility in an indisputably constitutional way, allowing the Scottish people to make their voice heard loud and clear in a properly delivered referendum.’
I personally didn’t – and still don’t – like the way she has done it, but I think she has put herself and the SNP – and the independence movement – in a very strong position for this election. It remains to be seen whether she can deploy that position to the maximum advantage. So far, she has not impressed as a campaign leader. That has not been her strong point. This might just be the time – the crucial time – when she overcomes that defect, and makes the impact she deserves to make, and should make.
I might be proved all wrong, but I am very hopeful. I await her speech tomorrow. Meanwhile, I think there are plenty of good signs, and good reason for all of us to take heart. We have waited a long time for this – and so too, I believe, has Nicola Sturgeon – so now is not the time to let our hearts grow faint. We should not miss the marvellous opportunity that now lies so tantalisingly within our grasp.
Ochil and South Perthshire
2015 turnout 74.8%
SNP Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh 26,620 46.0%
Labour Gordon Banks 16,452 28.4%
Conservative Luke Graham 11,987 20.7%
Liberal Democrats Iliyan Stefanov 1,481 2.6%
2017 turnout 70.6%
Conservative Luke Graham 22,469 41.5%
SNP Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh 19,110 35.3%
Labour Joanne Ross 10,847 20.0%
Liberal Democrats Iliyan Stefanov 1,742 3.2%
In round figures, SNP lost 7k, Labour lost 6k, and Tories gained 11k
Against reduced turnout overall, it has to be said Luke Graham did remarkably well. He’s 34 years old and by all accounts campaigns hard. It’s difficult to see where he got his votes from because we know nationally a lot of SNP voters simply stayed at home. The other national trend was that some SNP voters moved (returned?) to Labour which was masked by the big Lab->Tory shift.
So, in O&SP SNP folks need to get their own voters out, plus get voters back from Labour and maybe even. It would seem reasonable that anyone willing to switch to and from BritNat parties isn’t strong pro-Indy. Perhaps, therefore, some raison d’être behind the low profile Indy strategy there. The counter argument as Craig Murray points out, 40% of Labour voters are YES.
Tweet from William Duguid last night.
Folks – having been in touch with
@MrJohnNicolson
, I understand that the leaflet with which I raised concerns is an introductory one, and that subsequent election literature WILL explicitly mention independence. If so, I’ll be happy with that. Now let’s all get some sleep.
link to twitter.com
@wull
Long read, but well worth it, as usual!
manandboy says:
One thing is certain, the democratic process here in Scotland is more likely by far to be influenced by subversive Westminster-sponsored activity !
Every election, everywhere in the ‘democratic West’, has and will be meddled with by dark forces and their dark money. The problem is, the meddling tends to assist one side and when that side wins they don’t want any post-vote analysis revealing what was done.
Democracy is in for an increasingly hard time in the future.
Well at least that answers the question what the Ruth Davidson party will be called after Ruth leaves: They’ll continue to be called the Ruth Davidson Party.
wull @ 10:30,
A lot of your usual good sense, wull.
The only thing I would add is that it can become impossible for a decent MP to “square the circle” in circumstances such as at present where a significant number of constituents lose their proverbial marbles thanks to “interference” from right-wing press propaganda in virtual cahoots with foreign black ops.
It must be very difficult for an MP who can see clearly that a large segment – maybe even a majority – of their constituents are falling into grave error because of this. What best to do about it? Represent them faithfully in their error knowing it for what it is, or “lead from the front” and try to convince them they are mistaken?
It seems to me that if representative democracy has any advantage, it is that it can do the latter. (Even if all too often in normal circumstances within a rigid party system, it gives representatives great leeway to overlook their constituents’ legitimate concerns.)
Like much in life, it all comes down to the quality of the people involved. You get what you are willing to pay for.
Quick line why no National showing on the Paper section on the BBC Scotland section????
I normally deliver leaflets for the SNP but if these leaflets, this time, don’t mention independence, I’ll hand them back.
The Holyrood Praetorian Guard at Holyrood can find some other mug to keep them in their cushy jobs & coffee machines.
I have neither a cushy job nor a coffee machine.
We need independence. This campaign needs to be Indy or bust!
WTActualF?
I suggest: Vote SNP.
As an independence supporter, I think the SNP are shite: They won’t deliver independence under devolutionist woke politician Sturgeon but, they are still better than Labour, the LibDems or Tories.
Bibbit @ 11:17,
I fear that you have not been keeping up with this thread. Look back of late and I think you’ll find that we’re past the bitchin’ stage now.
Worry not, the SNP are going to put independence at the forefront this time round. If you can, be in George Sq. tomorrow to see!
We all have to fully support the SNP at this time they are the only vehicle which will take us to independence.
There have been some very concerning side issues recently which folk understandably object to.
We must ignore side issues, doesn’t stop you raising the issue at meeting or by post direct to the party.
We must be in no doubt the Westminster regime will be stirring things activating sleepers and encouraging anti SNP/anti Scottish/ anti Independence propaganda.
The agents of the regime, who have almost unlimited finance behind them will do their best to damage our cause.
We must be alert to this be careful what you post, convert one person to the cause, dig deep to support the SNP and sites like this.
If you need motivation just remember the unionists walking out when our MPs rise to speak at Westminster. If that doesn’t enrage you nothing will.
For fuck’s sake read the btl comments before commenting pish. One initial leaflet does not a campaign make. Update….the SNP will have Independence front and centre this time.
Can’t belief how fucking trigger happy the Rev is wi this shit.
Get a fucking grip and vote SNP…all the fucking way.
Moaning shower of bastards the lot of you. You know who you are. Pfft!
Colin Alexander @ 11:26,
Oh, do go away, Lord Hee Haw. Nobody on here gives a toss how you think people should vote, since they know fine enough already without your inevitable slimy insinuation.
“Independence supporter”?!
Hee Haw.
The Barrage balloon promising to stand a Brexit candidate in every Scottish seat at the GE. Who will that benefit? 🙂
msdidi@12:10
Note Lesley announced the proposed attendance of Greta Thunberg at a future independence function.
I find that worrying.
Nothing wrong with the leaflet. Printed before election was announced, look at the last item on the leaflet “fighting for Scotlands place in the EU.
What more do you want Scotlands place in the EU can only be kept through Independence. Do you really think that he needs baby building blocks to spell it out, pay heed to what happens politically at the weekend, or indeed Leith this morning.
What is all the fuss about because even if the SNP win every seat it still won’t get us independense they won 56 seats at one time and it made no differerence as long as you play by their rules you will never win they will lie and cheat and use every dirty trick in book to beat you and as long as you accept this you will never get you freedom
Re Jo Swinson LibDem MP for East Dunbartonshire,Leader of the LibDems and prospective Lib Dem candidate for same constituency.
Here she is, in edited form on the Andrew Neil TV Show yesterday. I’m told the full interview was even more toe-curling:
VIDEO via Twitter:
link to tinyurl.com
link to tinyurl.com
Bibbie et al.
The Nicholson leaflet is probbably, is, an old one printed BEFORE the GE was decided on.
Once UK parliament rises, they become illegal, because there are no MPs any more.
I’ve still got a few hundred for my area. Wet today, did’nt go out. If I still have any when parl. rises I will have to dump them.
On Eva Bollander, Christ, she should have known, when her expenses were published, that the union press would make a meal of it. But, did she really need a new pair of shoes every six weeks. And underwear, jees, what a home run. A hat by Kate Moss. ? Outerwear fine, glasses, not so much.
It dos’nt matter if she was within, well, the allowance, it’s the effin look when when the Herald’s shit get onto it.
Bibbit, sorry.
Bibbit, sorry. Second try.
Should have said our leaflets don’t mention Independence either.
When I made John Nicholson a cuppa, in the Adam Smith Building, we chatted…..
I don’t think he supported independence at the time.
Joined SNP in 1976.
I do miss the trips to Bannockburn….
It’s a funny old world an no mistake?